Subject: Re: Out Of The Trees - Final word.
Posted By Mogwai on Thu Aug 31 18:18:35 BST 2000:

> It is taking away Graham's rights and the potential future income for the estate SHOULD this script ever be published - you wouldn't buy it then because you all ready got it for free!

For someone who claims once to have been a fan, you're displaying a pretty fundamental misunderstanding of how we think. There's precious few of us on this forum who wouldn't buy a (decently laid-out, etc) edition of the script at a later date, even if we had downloaded it for nothing right now. Anyone who wouldn't do so obviously wasn't all that interested in the first place.

This whole unpleasant business is not comparable to the Napster argument, as the intellectual property in question is not currently available in any other form. In fact anything that the Corpses have uploaded onto this site is here purely because it is unavailable anywhere else - and the moment it became legitimately available for us all to buy freely, they would take it down. I repeat that it is a crying shame that you have taken this script out of circulation on the offchance that the Estate may deign to publish it in the future.

(Incidentally, all the criticisms of the layouts of your previous and otherwise laudable Chapman publications are completely justified. *Please* employ a new designer as and when OOTT is published...)

Subject: Re: Out Of The Trees - Final word.
Posted By Squidy on Thu Aug 31 19:33:01 BST 2000:

Listen Jim. I am a Python fan. If an unpublished script or unseen video is available I will attempt to get it, legally or otherwise. I bought 'your' book OJRIL and the Six Pack Of Lies CD, but if stuff like Out Of The Trees or the Python album in the hidden archive aren't available commercially I have no other way of reading or seeing them. I have downloaded several Python outakes, rarely seen adverts and scripts (including OOTT) from the web for my own personal enjoyment and will continue to do so until they are released commercially, which many never will be. In the long run, it is the fans who lose out as you should well know. I probably will never see the rushes from the original shows but if they are put on the web I will be the first to download them, whether the BBC or Python Productions make any money from them. And so would you, admit it. But you're luckier than us. You were a friend of Graham, wrote with him, and have what is probably the largest collection of unseen/unread Python stuff in the world. And you can read them every night until they disintergrate. WE, on the other hand, can't and are treasure any 'new' Python or solo material that gets unearthed. If you were a true python fan YOU would post all this stuff on the web for fans like yourdelf to read. Or have you forgotten what it's like to be an average fan.
Sorry about that but it had to be said. I'm off now to watch The Meaning Of Life and to wish I had a copy of the 'Adventures of Martin Luther' sketch.

Subject: Re: Out Of The Trees - Final word.
Posted By Jim Yoakum on Thu Aug 31 19:52:42 BST 2000:

>Listen Jim. I am a Python fan. If an unpublished script or unseen video is available I will attempt to get it, legally or otherwise.>

If you wish to to live outside the law, that's your business. Just as I will continue to stop any illegal postings of Graham's work.

<I bought 'your' book OJRIL and the Six Pack Of Lies CD, but if stuff like Out Of The Trees or the Python album in the hidden archive aren't available commercially I have no other way of reading or seeing them.>

That's not a very good reason to justify being a participant in an illegal operation.

<I have downloaded several Python outakes, rarely seen adverts and scripts (including OOTT) from the web for my own personal enjoyment and will continue to do so until they are released commercially, which many never will be.>

In your mind this is justification. "I want so I must have." Have you ever considered that maybe the people whose work you are taking might not WANT it available? Or does that not matter to you?

<In the long run, it is the fans who lose out as you should well know.>

No, it's the artists who lose when unauthorized work is taken.

<I probably will never see the rushes from the original shows but if they are put on the web I will be the first to download them, whether the BBC or Python Productions make any money from them.>

Nice to know you don't give damn.

<And so would you, admit it. But you're luckier than us. You were a friend of Graham, wrote with him, and have what is probably the largest collection of unseen/unread Python stuff in the world. And you can read them every night until they disintergrate. WE, on the other hand, can't and are treasure any 'new' Python or solo material that gets unearthed.>

This has nothing to do with the fact that it is still wrong.

< If you were a true python fan YOU would post all this stuff on the web for fans like yourdelf to read.>

Yeah, dream on.

< Or have you forgotten what it's like to be an average fan.>

No. I never stole material.

Subject: Re: Out Of The Trees - Final word.
Posted By Anonymous on Thu Aug 31 20:41:08 BST 2000:

Considering Jim's such a preachy, law-abiding citizen, he appears to have broken a few rules himself - such as the fact that you're not supposed to swear on this site at all.
We don't care, as we're obviously 'criminals'.
So what's your excuse?

Subject: Re: Out Of The Trees - Final word.
Posted By Jim Yoakum on Thu Aug 31 21:01:09 BST 2000:

>Considering Jim's such a preachy, law-abiding citizen, he appears to have broken a few rules himself - such as the fact that you're not supposed to swear on this site at all.
>We don't care, as we're obviously 'criminals'.
>So what's your excuse?

i have no fucking excuse.

Subject: Re: Out Of The Trees - Final word.
Posted By Anonymous on Thu Aug 31 21:11:13 BST 2000:

Right then!
(Get very angry,clenches fists, grits teeth and goes red. But doesn't do anything. Pause)
You weren't supposed to say that.

Subject: Re: Out Of The Trees - Final word.
Posted By Anonymous on Fri Sep 1 11:30:45 BST 2000:

for the very last time - NOBODY IS LOSING OUT, AS THERE IS NO MONEY INVOLVED

Subject: Re: Out Of The Trees - Final word.
Posted By Mogwai on Fri Sep 1 11:43:03 BST 2000:

>Have you ever considered that maybe the people whose work you are taking might not WANT it available? Or does that not matter to you?

No. Of course not. If we had to take into account John Cleese's critical feelings regarding his past work we'd only be allowed to see three of his films, a couple of Fawlty Towers and about three sketches from Python. An artist isn't always best placed to judge their own work. And anyway, did Graham really not want anyone to read or see OOTT? In that case, why on earth did he allow it to be broadcast on national television on the first place?

Subject: Re: Out Of The Trees - Final word.
Posted By Ewar Woowar on Fri Sep 1 12:21:32 BST 2000:

Hm, "the final word" - that's what it's really all about, isn't it Jim? I mean, you've made your point many, many, many times and people will either agree or disagree...now it's just about stamping your foot and swearing more than everyone else. Take a read of some of the old threads featuring a chap called Dan L - the similarities are striking.

boki was right, it could've been so different, if only you weren't such an unpleasant, belligerent buffoon.

Does anyone else have an image of Jim as a red-faced, sweating, flailing two-year-old having a tantrum?

Subject: Re: Out Of The Trees - Final word.
Posted By Mogwai on Fri Sep 1 12:30:33 BST 2000:

And anyway, isn't all this legal wrangling exactly the kind of petty, po-faced stuffiness that Graham was always railing against?

Subject: Re: Out Of The Trees - Final word.
Posted By Al on Fri Sep 1 13:32:08 BST 2000:

I'm reposting these points as they have still not been answered.

I'm sorry but comparing downloading this script to stealing a television, whilst technically accurate, is highly disingenuous.

You said 'theft is theft' but as a lawyer you know this is not true. There are many different kinds of theft and many different circumstances surrounding it.

Wouldn't it have been better for everyone if the owners of the rights to the script (is this you JY?) contacted the Corpses privately and sorted out some nominal payment or agreement? People should see this script - it's funny - it shouldn't be rotting away in some basement.

You have not denied ever copying CDs or LPs. This is a crime by your definition and no different from people downloading the script.
Furthermore - the idea that copying a CD or LP is different because one copy was sold just doesn't hold up. That's like me stealing 400 TVs and leaving the money behind to replace 2.

Subject: Re: Out Of The Trees - Final word.
Posted By Jon on Fri Sep 1 13:34:54 BST 2000:

I copy tapes for idealistic reasons, to destroy the record industry.

Still a long way to go - good job you can buy blank ones in packs of 5...

Subject: Re: Out Of The Trees - Final word.
Posted By Anonymous on Fri Sep 1 13:38:06 BST 2000:

I shall be tatooing the complete script of OUT OF THE TREES onto my niece's back. Just as a precaution, you understand.

Subject: Re: Out Of The Trees - Final word.
Posted By The Blues Project on Fri Sep 1 13:41:28 BST 2000:

And I'm going to go around quoting it in everyday conversation.

Subject: Re: Out Of The Trees - Final word.
Posted By Anonymous on Fri Sep 1 13:51:52 BST 2000:

How long is it?

We could make some flyers to give out in city centre locations.

Subject: Re: Out Of The Trees - Final word.
Posted By Justin on Fri Sep 1 23:56:31 BST 2000:

JY - You'll never get the final word on this forum. Live with it.