Message to scornful creators of this WEBSITE
Posted Mon May 1 22:42:08 BST 2000 by Laid
Who are the people who write this site? It seems you are are people ‘who know what they’re talking about,’ but you are also people of a high brow understanding of all that is comedic. What you seem to overlook is that lay people and comedians or aspiring comedy prodigies laugh at different things. Isn’t that one of the rules for a comedian? Never try to make other comedians laugh rather than the audience? Comedians never laugh at other comedian’s jokes. Mainly because they know the code to laughter, a magic trick isn’t magical when you know the contraption/method used.
What you seem to be preempting on here is the next level, the higher consciousness of comedy. You have gained the apprenticeship and now wish for the elusive ‘Mary Whitehouse Experience’ in the sky. But us lay people are left wallowing behind. Comedy is obviously your life. You want to probe deeper probably so much so that comedy won’t become about laughter anymore à la ‘Jam.’ Are you bored with laughter?
Is it so painstaking to see someone mirthful - spurred by a joke you surpassed with your comedy O level? ‘I’m Alan Partridge’ was not the Augen Stables of comedy, just maybe something you thought up long ago.
It all seems such a biased account. Everything has some worth doesn’t it? If it makes somebody somewhere smile or laugh it cannot be as evil as you suggest.
I think perhaps you are suffering overexposure. You’ve heard all the jokes. You’ve studied so intricately all that has gone before that what you deem as masterpieces are only so because they are stanched in your mind as ‘originals.’ Every joke has come from somewhere, I’m pretty sure repetition is just representative of success. Only having rehearsed what is good and ‘original’ to you, you have inadvertently given yourself a reference antecedent for anything that you come across.
Ideas merge and evolve. We refer to ‘things’ as cultural references the same way we use words from the same language to empathise with each other. Everything you’ve ever thought of is stolen from somewhere, every word you’ve ever used was scooped. Encylopedias are re-editioned as are whimsical one-liners.
Who knows? Maybe one day people will look back on the 11 o’clock Show as something of a daring masterpiece.
Give lay people a thought. We are a different breed to you. Why not continue to conjure up your backlash against laughter in the dressing room of the Comedy Store?
Subject: Re: Message to scornful creators of this WEBSITE
Posted By Justin on Mon May 1 23:20:18 BST 2000:
I can only speak for myself on this one, but I have no connection with the comedy industry, I've never had anything produced, and I don't know anyone in the industry. In other words: I am what you might call "a lay person". Maybe I do take comedy too seriously, but it's only because I like laughing more than almost anything, and I despair at how (relatively) rarely this happens on TV these days. It may interest you to know that many of my friends, my family and my girlfriend have also been known to voice this opinion lately - they are also "lay people", I guess.
This is a short response, but it's very late. I may come back to this. Any other lay people out there?
Subject: Re: Message to scornful creators of this WEBSITE
Posted By Steven on Mon May 1 23:35:11 BST 2000:
Hmm.. i agree one some points and disagree others.. I think comedy is being dumbed down and is dying quite rapidly. The 11 o clock show is probably one of the funnier programs on at the moment.. which is in itself a crime as it is absolute shite, but funnier than the average episode of Babes in the Wood. I disagree with the makes of this site that Im Alan Partridge was rubbish, thought i do understand why they think this, they think Alan becoming a sad loner destorys the character and this is true but he wasnt the successful Partridge character anymore, he had been sacked. Coogan had been using the character for nearly 10 years and he needs to put an end to him sometime or other. I thought Im Alan Partrdige was hilarious in a really pathetic way, watching Alan finally become the sad ludicrous idiot you've always suspected him of being outside of his chat show come true. Anyway, i think classic comedy such as slapstick and vulgarity will always be funny but only if its done in the right way, no amount of Iain Lee saying 'wanking' or 'cock' will make him funny. High brow comedy is a dangerous place as it usually ends going up its own arse. But too low brow is in as much danger of just not being funny, which is probably worse than going over peoples heads. I think the Simpsons had it right for a time, they had 4-5 series of amazingly layered comedy, every episode brimming with different levels, slapstick humour, visual humour, irony, patronisation, surreal humour, vulgar humour etc.. Kids would love the lower brow jokes and more mature people could find the less obvious stuff funny. It had many references to other programs/films, it was a wonderful production. They manage to do it for so long and so well it seemed like they could just do it without any effort and you forgot how difficult and how much hard work went in to achieve it. Then when the later series got progressively less funny and Futurama came out it just hits you how great those episodes were. Anyway, i think shows like Jam are very funny but in a very different way from other comedy programs and i much prefered Brass Eye to it, but its a new direction im sure. And of course it was only 20 minutes long and isnt really made to make you pissed yourself every 5 seconds.
Comedy is definitely a dying art, but it will definitely back sometime or other.
Subject: Re: Message to scornful creators of this WEBSITE
Posted By Richard Herring on Tue May 2 12:35:00 BST 2000:
I'd have thought that if you want to set up a site that says "All comedy is good and has some kind of worth and you shouldn't think too hard about it" then you can so that. The guys who set up here obviously have done it cos they want a place to seriously discuss comedy (and I think they're probably playing devil's advocate in places to help prompt discussion). There is nothing wrong with taking something like comedy seriously, nor criticising people for being lazy or crap (obviously it's a matter of opinion, but so is everything. We'd never talk about anything if we couldn't express our opinions).
To take music as an example, when one is young you probably like something like "Steps". As you experience more and get older you realise there is much more to music and that Steps aren't actually all that good (though clearly excel at what they do). By the logic of Laid no-one would ever get beyond liking Steps because it would be wrong to take the subject seriously, or express an opinion.
I think this web site is amazing. Yes, it's for people who really like comedy, and it might be true to say that analysing comedy to a massive extent can be a bit counter-productive. But people (including me) still like to do it.
As a professional comedian I have always respected the opinion of intelligent and thoughtful "fans" and if one is to create truly brilliant comedy then it is good to listen to the opinions of the consumers, as well as keeping an eye on whether you are becoming lazy or crap (in their opinion).
There's nothing wrong with hoping for excellence. I am going to stop now.
Subject: Re: Message to scornful creators of this WEBSITE
Posted By Laid on Tue May 2 14:17:25 BST 2000:
I never claimed ‘All comedy was good.’ What I was trying to say was that even in the cesspit of comedy you can always find something that has a sparkle of worth. Not everything can be so immediately disregarded. Encouragement may in fact prove more productive than chronic cynicism. One can only suspect that some people may be scared of pushing the so-called boundaries in case they are spot-lighted with the harsh critical light. Once I saw a comedian at an open mic night and she was dying painfully, but then all of a sudden she made a quip that brought the house down, something so bizzarre and pure comedy gold. But nobody would say she was ‘good.’
There is surely an obvious line between constructive criticism and the blatent hatred of the audience. When you know the comedy code you begin to hate an audience for laughing at stuff that you find ‘predictable.’ You see laughter as an enemy rather than a recognition of something funny. Unless of course you are getting the laughs. I don’t mean to stereotype but a lot of people in comedy are perhaps looking for that bit of gratitude and love that they have found unsatisfactory elsewhere. Then when they realise that it is all an artform. THEY aren’t getting the laughs but the process of comedy is. As they realise it’s a well established formula they perhaps become bitter. So much bitching goes on; who was the founder of this joke? Why do the audience still like what I was doing 10 years ago? And why is that twat doing what I was doing 10 years ago?
One of the residing judgments against the 11 o’clock Show on here is that ‘the audience feel like they could write the material.’ That just shows the biased view of these experts. That’s how they view comedy; “Could I write that?” Because they are seeing it all from a different perspective. If they went to see a top storming comedian, chances are they wouldn’t laugh. They would see the whole encounter as an excersice to guess the punchline. And they probably could guess it.
They obviously have a lot of spite towards audiences in general. And I can only assume they have been in the comedy business a long while.
Subject: Re: Message to scornful creators of this WEBSITE
Posted By The Corpses on Tue May 2 15:54:05 BST 2000:
All we ask is that we're SURPRISED by comedy. It doesn't happen nearly enough.
Subject: Re: Message to scornful creators of this WEBSITE
Posted By Justin on Tue May 2 18:13:52 BST 2000:
I agree that comedy does receive a much more hostile reception from critics than just about any other genre (way beyond music, for example). But I would also say that there are critics "out there" who dismiss comedy without actually contributing to a website such as this one - their method is called switching off the telly. You don't get top-rated comedy shows in the UK anymore - everyone seems to prefer soaps now.
Anyway, I take your point that a site like this could be in danger of toppling over into exclusive cynicism and negativity. But I don't think it has done this (well, not so far anyway). Most of its contributors, be they professionals or fans, are genuinely looking for something that thrills them. Remember the first time you caught Python? Or On The Hour? Or Fawlty Towers? It's a lot to ask, I know, but I get the feeling that a lot of writers/performers/producers/ production companies/networks are no longer trying very hard. They are simply aware that comedy is big business these days, and have become rather complacent.
As regards the 11ocs, I must admit I've used the side-splitting comparison that the writers have scribbled the jokes down while on the way to the TalkBack offices, in much the same way that you'd finish an essay on the bus going to school. But if you really believe that 'we' are contemptuous of the show's audience, then why didn't TalkBack/Harry Thompson/Richard Hopkins/whoever it was in charge invite the studio audience or viewers to submit/perform their own gags based on the day's news instead of employing a bunch of staff writers and, er... performers who, frankly, weren't up to the job? (It may be that unsolicited material was indeed part of the mix, but if so, I didn't know.)
If The 11ocs was an experiment about whether you could do a thrice-weekly topical comedy show on the basis that the bulk of the material was assembled on the day of transmission, then we now have the answer. It can't be done. So it would seem.
(Although if someone could make such a format work, I'd be delighted. Really, I would.)
Subject: Re: Message to scornful creators of this WEBSITE
Posted By The Corpses on Wed May 3 11:11:49 BST 2000:
No, comedy gets off lightly as far as criticism goes. It doesn't happen with music, certainly - read the NME and you'll see several sacred cows being slaughtered every week as a matter of course. But with comedy, opinions about someone's greatness get taken almost as FACTS. We just find it all a bit sinister.
We disagree that we've 'seen too much comedy' and become complacent and spoilt. If that was the case, why do old episodes of Kenny Everett, The Goodies and Not The Nine O'Clock News make s fall off our sofas laughing? And why do some of the corpses still amuse us? When it works, it works. It just doesn't work very often these days, that's all. And there a lot more bad stuff, which is out of proportion with the toadying that passes for criticism.
It all comes down to attitude, really. Comedy has been fucked up by agents and journalists and there's little room for joy any more. Can you imagine Kenny Everett being managed and marketed by Jon Thoday?
Subject: Re: Message to scornful creators of this WEBSITE
Posted By Louise on Wed May 3 17:17:17 BST 2000:
>But with comedy, opinions about someone's greatness get taken almost as FACTS. We just find it all a bit sinister.
I resent the implication that you, The Corpses (names?) are the only ones capable of forming an opinion yourselves, while the rest of us, herd-like, follow received opinion. Whose opinion? Where do you imagine it came from? Are you not just taking too much coke? On the contrary, if someone tells me "Oh you've GOT to see such-and-such, it's HILARIOUS" I ususally disbelieve them, having been burned too many times in the past. Personally, I need to discover comedy and comedians myself in order to really love them. Why do you believe that you are different from, if not superior to, your readers? Have you always had feelings of isolation or is it a recent development?
>
>there's little room for joy any more.
There certainly isn't once you've dug your little claws into it. What *I* find sinsiter is the way you want to squish the enthusiasm and passion out of every comedy fan, just because you've become too bitter and cynical to feel these things yourselves any more. And don't give me that bullshit about wanting to incite "intelligent debate" - if that were the case then why do you allow John! and Suii to clog up your forum with their boring drivel, the subject of which is NEVER comedy?
>Can you imagine Kenny Everett being managed and marketed by Jon Thoday?
No. I have no idea who Jon Thoday is. Which I suppose means I can't be "serious" about comedy. Well thank fuck for that - I couldn't live in a world where only half a dozen shows were funny and hatred and cycnicism came so much easier than love or joy. You're welcome to it, suckers.
Oh, and BTW, have you noticed that most of the comedy you profess to "fall off the sofa" laughing at came about during periods of economic depression? If you want that kind of comedy boom to happen again, I suggest you get jobs in the city and precipitate worldwide stockmarket crash. Just a thought.
Louise
Subject: Re: Message to scornful creators of this WEBSITE
Posted By Suiii on Wed May 3 17:46:32 BST 2000:
Awww, what a cheery soul!
Subject: Re: Message to scornful creators of this WEBSITE
Posted By Jon on Sat May 6 13:17:14 BST 2000:
What was the classic comedy of the 30s then, eh? Tommy Handley, Max Miller... need I go on?
