I think we tolerate them because they post here.




and they WILL pose nude some day. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Richard Herring on Wed Jun 7 14:35:46 BST 2000:

Please don't hold back just cos you think we'll read stuff. We think feedback from comedy fans is very important. Good and bad.

We are posing nude somewhere on these actual pages. The photos come from episode 1 of Fist of Fun where they were used subliminally.
I have also appeared completely naked on stage, having sex with a thousand year old skellington Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Ailie on Wed Jun 7 15:13:55 BST 2000:

>I have also appeared completely naked on stage, having sex with a thousand year old skellington


What's a skellington?



Oh, so many boner related jokes....
Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Anonymous on Wed Jun 7 15:39:48 BST 2000:

They are not funny men.Simple as that. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Louis Barfe on Wed Jun 7 16:16:08 BST 2000:

>They are not funny men.Simple as that.

Rich asked for constructive. You'll have to expand on that to qualify.
Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Suiii on Wed Jun 7 17:21:28 BST 2000:

Skellington is a far better word than skeleton, and should be used by all doctors.

L&H are funny, especially when compared to some of the absolute shite that abounds these days. TMWRNJ made working in the fascist regime of a certain office superstore slghtly more bearable because I had something good to watch when I got home. If it wasn't for L&H, Al Murray, League of Gents etc. British Comedy would consist of utter drivel such as 'Game On', 'Coupling' and reruns of imported drivel like Friends. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Ewar Woowar on Wed Jun 7 17:46:51 BST 2000:

>Skellington is a far better word than skeleton, and should be used by all doctors.
>

As should "hostipal". Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Suiii on Wed Jun 7 18:11:13 BST 2000:

And also 'aminals' and 'crinimals', which sound much better. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By subbes on Wed Jun 7 18:42:10 BST 2000:

and "lemingade". Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Gee on Wed Jun 7 19:30:04 BST 2000:

Is Richard Herring really the Richard Herring from Fist of Fun or is this a joke? If it is I thought Fist of Fun was excellent. Richard have you still got your Morissey style quiff? Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Rob S on Wed Jun 7 21:05:56 BST 2000:

That's really Richard Herring... you can see their official website at http://www.leeandherring.com/ (see if you can spot the familiar logo) Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Gee on Thu Jun 8 00:16:32 BST 2000:

So it 'is' Richard Herring. I thought it was a joke. I went to the Lee and Herring Web site and I saw the logo and I also saw your name Rob. Well it certainly impressed me as I have contemplated building my own site but, alas, I haven't got the HTML savvy to accomplish it. I am working on a Celebrity Dictionary. Here's a small sample. Tell me what you think:

(This is the title page)

Celebrity Dictionary

Hello and welcome to Celebrity Dictionary. We've asked some of your favourite actors, television personalities, It girls and football star-daters to give us what they think is the meaning of a word of a word we have chosen for them. We should point out though that this dictionary should not be used to do either your home work or serious writing. We make no claims for the accuracy of our celebrity definitions or indeed the quality of their minds.


(This is the entry for Fry. It's linked for the title page on the site)

Our Celebrity List

Stephen Fry

Fry was brought up on the tough streets of Glasgow. Bullied because of his height and affected plumy speech he fought back the only way he could, he used his wit. Unfortunately this never went down well with the kids on Stephen's estate and Fry received numerous beatings. Yet this came to put Fry in good stead for the mauling he would receive from the critics who panned his talent. Fry fought off this scoffing by bravely running away to France and by refining his acting by working as a street mime artist.
Here is Stephen's word: 'integrity'

Stephen's definition:

Ah yes what a marvellous word! I have an idea, please stop me if I'm making an utter fool of myself, but this is an '80s word I believe? I'm certainly aware of it being used then. I'm not too sure, I'm rather baffled I admit. It's not a word one finds oneself coming across so much these days. I haven't heard it said for years. Is it something to do with mortgages? Is it a policy of some sort? House insurance? No I give up.



Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Gee on Thu Jun 8 00:32:23 BST 2000:

A few mistakes.

"of a word" shouldn't be repeated. Oh dear, I've paste an uncorrected version. Bugger!

"Linked from" (although this isn't part of Celebrity Dictionary of course)

I've made a complete mess of this Rob. It doesn't really work without the pictures (and I've got a really good one for Fry: it glows with smugness.

Please forgive my time wasting.



Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Gee on Thu Jun 8 01:11:26 BST 2000:

When I asked has Richard still got the quiff, I of course meant Stewart. They really should swop names because Richard looks like a Stewart while Stewart looks like a Richard (please don't read any cockney slang into that). Would there be any tax advantages in a name swop?

Shut up Gee and ask your question! OK. Why aren't Lee and Herring doing television any more? Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Malcolm on Thu Jun 8 02:46:20 BST 2000:

I think it's very brave and says a lot for Richard Herring that he's encouraged honest opinions of his work on this thread. This he shall get.

L&H seem to be the only comics who escape criticism on SOTCAA, while greater comedians than them come in for a regular verbal kick-in. I've never been a fan of L&H's work. So if you think the sun shines out their respective ringpeices, and can't believe anyone could hold the contrary positon, here it is:

The problems I have with L&H is they are more funny clever than funny ha ha.

They did start off with a very obvious and contrived attempt(and I don't whether it was them or their managers idea) to replace Newman and Baddiel as the Kings Of The Student Wank circuit. Whatever the case, it was infinitely less successful and very, very annoying. Who'd want to emulate these tits?

SOTCAA is very harsh on low quality 'mention someone from the 70's and 80's' nostalgia half jokes. But who's more guilty of that than L&H. Ie one semi-joke about the bloke from My Two Dads, which appears to be have stretched out over the past decade, Rod Hull etc.

They may lash out at "lazy comedy slags", but they're not exactly guilt free in that department themselves. Like 'Jam', they pride themselves on making 'innovative' comedy, and like 'Jam', they never bother going to the next step of actually making the audience laugh. "I didn't laugh once, that's what makes it so refreshing" say all equally lazy critics (more or less). It's easy to do innovative comedy if it isn't funny, a piece of piss in fact.

They are very keen on the "running gag." A peice of lazy 90's comedy bullshit which really means the same joke repeated over and over again.

When you've had to endure that lot, you dream for the days of a good old fashioned punchline. Jerry Sadowitz once said the reason Ben Elton never did any Irish jokes is cause he never knew any. The reason I think L&H turn their nose up at punchline humour is cause they can't write any (well I've never seen any evidence of it).

Their scripts appear to have massive dead patches, very slapdash. And in most of the shows I've seen them do, half the time you don't know whether there's a studio audience there or not.

Whenever I've seen either of them write a newspaper column or interviewed, they do seem highly articulate and well informed about the comedy scene. This would make me assume they'll eventually end up commentators of comedy, rather than comedians themselves. But doing comedy from a high-brow journalistic angle is not something People pay the license fee for (like we need another 'Collins & Marconie').

And what's wrong with a bit of warmth? It never harmed Reeves & Mortimer or Spike Milligan.

90% of their comedy appears to be mentioning obscure references. Watching their shows is like having to endure a lecture by a snotty 17 year old who wants to write for the NME.

"But they're so intelligent." F*** intelligent! Make me laugh. They're the kind of comics that seem more interested in getting a star from the teacher than cracking the audience up.

In closing, grow up, stop trying to be so bloody cool in front of the kids, and maybe you'll get another shot at a TV series.

I genuinely believe SOTCAA is the best comedy page on the web, but lets just say your blind spot was beginning to irritate me. You do say how much you want fans to stop being so fawning, well I've kept faith with that, haven't I?

Is their any other L&H-phobes who agree with me? I think it's only democratic our voice is heard. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Jon on Thu Jun 8 07:17:19 BST 2000:

Yeah, but 'The Lettuce Family' was good... Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Jon on Thu Jun 8 11:18:08 BST 2000:

Oh, here's what I reckon...

I suppose I'm a fan, I didn't like them on R1 (apart from some great sketches that surprised me). I liked the couple of TV FOFs I saw. I liked TMWRNJ, but it infuriated me sometimes.

I can see both sides:

THE CASE AGAINST:

1. "Men of achievement 1974". Enough said.
2. "The Organ Gang". Must have been really funny when they thought of it...
3. "The Ironic Review". Funny bits, but what is the point of "making fun" of Burchill/Raven's Modern Review when the only people who take it seriously are its own writers?
4. "Hist. Of Alt Comedy". Again, why mock sad old Jenny Lecoat and Andy De La Tour, when no fucker cared about them in the 1st place? And why not have a point to it, instead of just showing a duff routine each week?
5. "Extra final scenes" was mostly sub-F&S crap. Anyway (to be pedantic) some of them were alternate endings, not extra scenes.
6. "Nostradamus". I switched channels.
7. My favourite memories often involve Kevin Eldon, and it's his performance, rather than the script, that makes it funny, eg. "Mr Kennedy, you are a complete fuckwit" (see what I mean?)
8. Anyway, if they don't like topical/satirical comedy, why do it with "Aims of the show"? For padding?


However,

THE CASE IN FAVOUR:

1. "The Lettuce Family". It made me cry.
2. Rod Hull.
3. Simon Quinlank.
4. "Extra final scenes (trainspotting / Blues Brothers)".
5. Norman Wisdom on acid / "Lazy comedy slags". Should have done more of this.
6. The thing about the love triangle was OK, maybe they should have ditched the Greg Evigan format. Or only used it once or twice, presented the story separately altogether.
7."Sunday Heroes".
8. The 2 teachers.
9. "But what about the businessman..." / Just the 2 of them faffing about together. They are a proper double act in the Morecambe&Wise mould, whereas Newman&Baddiel were 2 stand-ups who did the odd sketch together.

Incidentally, 90% of Reeves&Mortimer was originally about 'obscure references'. Remember Morrissey The Consumer Monkey?
Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Suiii on Thu Jun 8 12:25:51 BST 2000:

I thought I'd imagined Morrissey the Consumer Monkey, no-one else remembers him! And you're right, R & M is full of obscurity even today. 'Sun boiled Onions' a phrase which was only ever explained in one sketch, but is repeated quite often, and was eventually the title of Jims book. There's also what I like to call 'The Hartlepool Connection'. Their 'Pat and Dave' characters "Are you lookin' at me bra?"while funny in their own right cannot really be understood unless you live in Teesside or Wearside, and no-one in Hartlepool could possibly get the joke! Someone as far afield as say..Newcastle would be at a loss to explain it, so it often intrigues me as to what other people make of these characters, and other in-jokes such as 'The Fun Brothers'. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Richard Herring on Thu Jun 8 15:25:43 BST 2000:

To respond to some of the above critique.
We did not aim to replace N&B and were not evewn marketed like this, but as young up and coming comics we had to take a simialr route to them in both our writing and performing and comparisons were inevitable.
However, I would agree with the above saying we are much more of a double act than Dave and Rob.
I am happy to admit we've done some bad stuff (thought second series of FOF was rushed and disappointing - not entirely our fault, but still)
I have no interest in being cool. We deliberately took out almost all young people references because (for a start) I'm not interested in pop music and it annoys me when there are jokes about stuff that I can't understand.
We have been forced into to doing running gags, cos of budget restrictions and because FOF didn't realyy have them (series 1 anyway) and suffered because no-one got into it. It galls me that most of our most successful ideas are TV/personality based, cos we don't like doing those kind of gags. Having said that I think the Rod Hull thing was about so much more than Rod Hull and I loved it.

I suggest you watch Time Gentlemen please if you don't think I'm capable of punchlines or warmth. I think Lee and Herring are quite a warm and self effacing comedy act - especially when compared to the\11 O clock show.

I know we're not everyone's cup of tea, but still get several people a day asking me when I'm back on TV - not in the forseeable
Thanks for the comments though Malcom. I can see where you're coming from.

Remember a comedian is always learning. I think you should watch out for what Stew and me will be producing over the next 5 years (probably separately) I think you might change your mind
Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Jon on Thu Jun 8 15:35:27 BST 2000:

Overall I like L&H (just to be clever, I put 9 points in favour and 8 against). But you asked for feedback, and those are the things that irked me, and also the things I liked.

Incidentally, I've always thought one of the main differences between L&H and N&B is the character-based stuff (like the teachers/ things go wrong), that develops into pathos, rather than just taking the piss. I wouldn't say warmth exactly, but there is an element of UNDERSTANDING, which the other 2 missed.

But I don't like to say I'm a fan, because that is often taken to mean uncritical devotion. Critical devotion is more fun.


Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By subbes on Thu Jun 8 15:41:21 BST 2000:

Oddly, i enjoyed FOF more than TMWRNJ, maybe because there were no running gags - so if, through being a complete idiot, you missed one week's instalment, you could watch the next one without comnig face to face with a new runnng gag that was introduced on the last week's show and that leaves you just staring blankly at the screen.

Curious orange was hysterical, mind you. possibly because it stopped just short of being terrifyingly stupid. and my mind's never ben that balanced, anyway. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Justin on Thu Jun 8 16:35:55 BST 2000:

I've always thought that the best L&H stuff was the two of them on the sofa/on the radio talking about stuff. It's funny, but the Baddiel & Skinner show has made me think "The only other people who could pull this off would be L&H".

To this end, some of my favourite stuff is on the Radio 1 series where it was Stew, Rich, Peter Baynham, Sally Phillips and Kevin Eldon. Tried doing some compilation tapes of the series, but they were almost as bad as the Mark Tonderai edits - like Chris Morris, the pleasure was listening to the (brilliant) records being interrupted, or abridged in favour of seemingly aimless chat which was hysterical.

Thought Lionel Nimrod was superb, Fist Of Fun good on the radio, 1st series of the TV show seemed such a new way of doing comedy, 2nd series I agree a bit rushed, but didn't realise at the time how you were "up against it" a bit (mind you, don't think the edits did L&H justice). TMWRNJ was necessarily patchy, but sporadically brilliant and consistently courageous.

But the chat's my favourite stuff - that Talking Comedy show they did for R2 choosing clips had some wondrous moments. Rich & Stew sounded like they were genuinely enjoying themselves.

Looking forward to seeing Time Gentlemen Please. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Justin on Thu Jun 8 20:04:09 BST 2000:

What I forgot to say was....

Saw them live three times, twice in Cardiff within three months of 1995, and was astonished to find that about 80% of the second gig was completely different material.
Compare that to Jack Dee who I saw twice in eighteen months, and it sounded like the same act to me.

But the most enjoyable of the three live shows I saw L&H involved in was the TMWRNJ Warm-up show I saw at Battersea Arts Centre in Dec '97. Even though they had quite clearly written much of the show the previous night, it gave the performance a sense of real urgency, and was one of the funniest gigs I've ever seen. (Rich did a version of his Spice Girls character study breakdown.)

I've always been much impressed at just how prolific the pair of them have been, and find it unbelievable that certain individuals berate them for repeating an odd line or phrase or throwaway gag. God knows how these people can cope with the repetitive nature of Shooting Stars, for instance, which I think may have been the same show every week by the final series. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Jon on Thu Jun 8 20:15:19 BST 2000:

Stewart Lee is a brilliant stand-up comic. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Gee on Thu Jun 8 22:11:40 BST 2000:

I think Malcolm expects too much. He wants the moon on a stick.

Malcolm wrote: "L&H seem to be the only comics who escape criticism on SOTCAA, while greater comedians than them come in for a regular verbal kick-in." Who are these great comedians Malcolm? Surely Malcolm you're far too busy searching for clichés to watch television.

And then there was this: "Whenever I've seen either of them write a newspaper column or interviewed, they do seem highly articulate and well informed about the comedy scene. This would make me assume they'll eventually end up commentators of comedy, rather than comedians themselves. But doing comedy from a high-brow journalistic angle is not something People pay the license fee for (like we need another 'Collins & Marconie')." Well I don't know about anyone else but I've never paid the BBC money in order to read a newspaper. I really think your news agent's having you over here Malcolm.

This nonsense continued with: "90% of their comedy appears to be mentioning obscure references. Watching their shows is like having to endure a lecture by a snotty 17 year old who wants to write for the NME." Well nothing really much baffled me. My advice Malcolm is never go near any James Joyce. He assumes that his reader will have to do some work (i.e. learn some Irish history) The works well worth doing because Joyce is a very funny writer. It seems to me you're complaining that the comedy went over your head. Well, Malcolm that's a problem you'll have to sort out with your head.

I truly believe that Lee and Herring can be proud of their television work. It made me laugh and I'm the most miserable bastard alive.



















Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Gee on Fri Jun 9 01:17:30 BST 2000:

We have, my girlfriend and myself, just enjoyed -- no not that -- an hour (told you it wasn't that) of Lee and Herring video clips on their Web site. We found that the sound on two of the clips was rather poor (we had to skip those) but nevertheless we relished the treat. The last time I found something this funny on the Web, was when I read that Microsoft had lost their court case. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Malcolm on Fri Jun 9 02:21:41 BST 2000:

Thank you for your reply.

A few things I'd like to clear up with you.

>We did not aim to replace N&B and were not evewn marketed like this, but as young up and coming comics we had to take a simialr route to them in both our writing and performing and comparisons were inevitable.

This I find hard to believe. The first young double act to get a BBC2 TV show after them two played Wembley Arena. And you weren't marketed as a replacement, come of it. You must've been the only two comedians on the planet in the mid nineties that weren't dreaming of filling out that draughty barn.

You admit you "had to take a similar route to them in writing and performing", which seems as much an admission of guilt as you can possibly get.

And what does "had to" mean? "Had to" in order to appease greedy comedy promoters that you one day might make a shitload for them in concert, video and t-shirt sales. If everyone had followed this way of thinking, Reeves & Mortimer would be doing Ben Elton routines, and The Sex Pistols would be famous for their Bay City Roller cover versions.

Why did you "have to" take a similar route in writing and performing? Taking a stand against the factory produced student comedy circuit too much of a hassle? Was some greedy manager standing over you with a bullwhip forcing you to be sneeringly ironic? Sounds like lazy comedy slagdom to me.

>However, I would agree with the above saying we are much more of a double act than Dave and Rob.

I am happy to admit we've done some bad stuff (thought second series of FOF was rushed and disappointing - not entirely our fault, but still)

Studio audience silence during the entire run of your last series not giving you the hint this might not be the only example then?

>I have no interest in being cool. We deliberately took out almost all young people references because (for a start) I'm not interested in pop music and it annoys me when there are jokes about stuff that I can't understand.

Tell that to your partner.

>We have been forced into to doing running gags, cos of budget restrictions and because FOF didn't realyy have them (series 1 anyway) and suffered because no-one got into it.

If in doubt, copy The Fast Show.

It galls me that most of our most successful ideas are TV/personality based, cos we don't like doing those kind of gags.

Then why do them? Stand up for what you believe in.

Having said that I think the Rod Hull thing was about so much more than Rod Hull and I loved it.
>
>I suggest you watch Time Gentlemen please if you don't think I'm capable of punchlines or warmth. I think Lee and Herring are quite a warm and self effacing comedy act - especially when compared to the\11 O clock show.
>

Saying we're not as bad as The Eleven O'Clock show is as noble as bank robbers beating up child molesters in prison.

>I know we're not everyone's cup of tea, but still get several people a day asking me when I'm back on TV - not in the forseeable
>Thanks for the comments though Malcom. I can see where you're coming from.
>

>Remember a comedian is always learning. I think you should watch out for what Stew and me will be producing over the next 5 years (probably separately) I think you might change your mind
>

These comments I will not criticise. You are one of the few comics around who will openly debate criticism of his work, and will no doubt improve as the years go by because of it. I hope you prove me right.

ps To others. Reeves and Mortimer were the first and best at obscure references, and this was only a small part of their comedy legacy. If a million imitators come along afterwards and turn it into utter tedium, that's not their fault.

As for the James Joyce comment. Obscure literary references are fine (if their funny). It's obscure media references, that after ten years, are beginning to tire me.

But finishing on a positive note, we all seem to agree on one thing, it's time to kill this "running gag" (the same jike every week) cobblers. These Comedy Zone shows have been chancing it too long. Let's all agree on that. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Jon on Fri Jun 9 07:16:00 BST 2000:

No, let's keep having a go at running gags, so people will keep reading the strand. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Richard Herring on Fri Jun 9 08:51:58 BST 2000:

I think you let yourself down there Malcom. Your first post was reasonably well argued, but that one just ignored everything I said and tried to turn it round t prove what you think.
I promise you on my nephews eyes that we did not try to emulate N&B. It annoyed us at the time that people compared us to them. It was lazy. I think we suffered because people assumed we were the same as them without really looking at what we were doing. To be honest I didn't see much of their work.

Just because some people are cynical in this business doesn't mean everyone is.

And the thing about studio audience silence is just rubbish. In our last series we constantly had to drop items cos the audience reaction was making us overrun.

Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Rob S on Fri Jun 9 09:23:48 BST 2000:

> We found that the sound on two of the clips was rather poor (we had to skip those) but nevertheless we relished the treat.

Can you remember which two clips had the poor sound? Hopefully I won't repeat the same mistakes I made on them with future clips on L&H and SOTCAA...

Anyone got any views on the media stuff on these sites? Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Mr Turner on Fri Jun 9 09:37:00 BST 2000:

>>Stewart Lee is a brilliant stand-up comic. <<

You're a gutless twat.

And I bet you're a piff. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Jon on Fri Jun 9 10:29:24 BST 2000:

What brought that on? Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By zaber on Fri Jun 9 12:28:41 BST 2000:

And what's a piff?

Is it some kind of reference to that crapply accented policeman in Allo Allo? Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Malcolm on Fri Jun 9 13:33:48 BST 2000:

You asserted you "had to" follow a similar route to N&B in writing and performing. I may have embellished the possible reasons why (apologies). But I still don't know why you felt this necessary. Why? Please explain. This seems quite an important point to me. I'm not nitpicking, I'm asking a straightforward question.


Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Richard Herring on Fri Jun 9 14:28:36 BST 2000:

When you start as a comedian there are very few avenues open to you to get work. You thus either have a crack at the stand up circuit or you start writing for radio (or both)
Like Rob and Dave we did both, but a couple of years after them. We followed the path from Weekending to doing our own radio show, to having that transferred to TV (like them) because that is the way stuff happens.
On the live circuit we played Universities because that work was available and because as younger comics our material would appeal to people of a similar age. We didn't set out to do that and would have preferred not to as University gigs were usually very hard and unpleasant. But we wanted to work and learn and this was the main avenue open to us.
We also put on shows in Edinburgh (as did N&B) because this was another place where we could get the work and be allowed to work on our ideas.

Because we were young when we got on radio/tv we were put out at a time when young people might see us. We had no control over this. It's up to the BBC when they put us out.

N&B did the same because that is the way things are run. How would you suggest we should have proceeded, Malcom? You obviously know so much about it. What should we have done differently? Should we have refused to work together because there was N&B who were two men working together?

Like N&B we were two young men, who'd been to University and who have the same management. There are similarities to our backgrounds but to suggest we attempted to emulate them is actually wrong. I can tell you, we didn't, because I was there. And it pisses me off that you think I'm lying about it, as if what I'm saying is impossible. Cos I think if you watch what we did and what they did that there wouldn't be much common ground (especially considering the similarity of our backgrounds). It's just lazy and obvious to assume that things get marketed in that way and that anyone new must have copied someone else.

I was never interested in being cool. I never wanted to appeal just to students (though have no problem with students liking our stuff, it's just for anyone) and had no aspirations to play Wembley (which was lucky as we couldn't even fill a thousand seater at any point in our career as a double act)

Look, it's fine that you don't like us and I was interested to hear you reasons why. But some people do like us. I think you underestimate us. For one thing I think we have a fair amount of warmth and charm and that the targets of almost all our jokes are ourselves (some people mistake us for being preachy, but when Stu is having a go at Gail Porter that is as much about his character's hang ups as about her)

I honestly can't see much similarity between what we do and what N&B did. If there was any it was probably more to do with us both being influenced by similar things.

I'm not going to get into a long discussion with you about this. You've had your say. I've had mine. You're not going to change your mind and you're entitled to your opinion. I'd be interested to know what route you would suggest we should have taken.
I'm pretty proud of a lot of what we've done and watching some of it back (which I never have before) it is only FOF series 2 that disappoints me. And that is largely because of the stupid changes the BBC made us do.
There seem to be plenty of punchlines to me as well and lots of funny routines (and I agree we've been at our best when just twatting on together)
Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Malcolm on Fri Jun 9 15:05:43 BST 2000:

I agree this arguments getting a bit table tennissy (although you do make yourself sound like a member of Bros).

But if you run a feature called 'lazy comedy slags', based on nitpicking slagging off of other peoples acts, don't blub when the same is done to you.

Anyway, once again, I wish you well and do honestly hope the next five years you do something great that will completely change my mind about your work. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Richard Herring on Fri Jun 9 15:33:14 BST 2000:

I'm not blubbing. I asked for comments. I just think some of what you said is wrong and was defending myself.
And you haven't answered the question about what route you think we should have taken.

The lazy comedy slags thing was again partly taking the piss out of ourselves. I think you take us a bit seriously. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Malcolm on Fri Jun 9 16:19:40 BST 2000:

>And you haven't answered the question about what route you think we should have taken.

One that avoided comparisons with what had gone before. You got your break partly (though not totally) because of the lazy sods that run this industry were looking for a quick replacement when N&B stopped talking to each other. It was obvious people were going to make comparisons, you must've seen this coming, so why didn't you do anything to stop it? Why not make a complete break from student pleasing and being sneeringly ironic. Reeves & Mortimer never did Ben Elton style gags, Monty Python wasn't That Was The Week That Was part 2. You see where I'm coming from? You had the weight and support of powerful comedy promotion behind you, you did not have to go that route, but I suppose fashion and short-term opportunism dictates.

>The lazy comedy slags thing was again partly taking the piss out of ourselves

And mostly taking the piss out of others. You can't backtrack now.

Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Justin on Fri Jun 9 16:46:19 BST 2000:

Malcolm:

Look - you don't like 'em. OK. Fine. But at least make your argument sound more like you've seen more than ten minutes of their most recent TV series. I really cannot agree that L&H are a retread of N&B. N&B were hardly ever a double act anyway (apart from History Today), and besides they only really became a 'double act'* in 1992, by which time (I think I'm right in saying, correct me Rich if I'm wrong) Rich & Stew were doing the circuit together anyway, and certainly writing together (On The Hour, Weekending and Lionel Nimrod). I think you're being a tad unfair on both parties here.

As for the student-pleasing material, Jesus...there was almost no-one else around doing 'studenty' (by which, I presume you mean stuff for teenagers and young adults) material. Yeah - right, no-one quite apart from Punt & Dennis, Fast Show, Mark Thomas, and come to that, most people on the circuit - after all most people on the comedy circuit are in their twenties/early thirties. What are you expecting - a sitcom about an old people's home or something?
You really sound like you don't like young people very much, quite honestly.

I'm trying to be objective here, because I do (unlike you) think they're great. But one of the main things L&H did/are doing was/is to avoid the preachiness of late-period Elton-era comedy. They were quite happy to stomp on any pomposity - that I think is at the heart of a lot of their comedy. And what's wrong with that? Comedy, by the early 90s, and especially now, had begun to take itself awfully seriously. I think the fact that Rich is prepared to argue/discuss all these points show that he takes your points seriously, but not (necessarily) himself.

You say they lack warmth, but you could argue that most TV comedy lacks warmth compared to a live experience - Python's hardly warm, is it? Go see Time Gentlemen Please, go see Lee live, go see the pair if they do any gigs again.

But above all, I think you're being a bit hard on the fans here. I suspect I'm not their target audience (I think I'm only a few years younger than they are, actually), but I reckon they're two of the most thoughtful comedians around. I think you've been hoodwinked by the seemingly lightweight frameworks of their TV shows (Fist Of Fun was Why Don't You?, TMWRNJ daytime telly).

I've gone on a bit. Is there anything left to say?

* - at least, a double act in the sense that they appeared next to each other on the covers of some sell-through videotapes.
Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Richard Herring on Fri Jun 9 17:00:37 BST 2000:

Yes Malcom you're talking rubbish.
To say we were put together as a replacement to Newman and Baddiel is just silly. We'd been working together for years and were well on our way to getting our own TV show when Dave and Rob were still together. You are just wrong about this. It offends me that when I have been so honest you still seem to think I am lying. I think Newman and Baddiel did us nothing but harm, because like you, a lot of people imagined we were the same as them and then didn't bother to see if we were or not.

I'm not backtracking on Lazy Comedy Slags. Part of the joke was that I then did the jokes myself to the annoyance of Stew. Yes, we are bored by stand up acts that are full of "then I got off the bus". I think it was interesting to point this out. But as with much of our stuff it was the obsessive way we went about it that was funny. The joke was on us.
I think apart from your first post you have been abusive and rude. Not cos you're criticising us which I don't mind at all. (I'm quite interested in fact) but because you have essentially called me a liar and said stuff like I'm backtracking. It seems to me this is the only way you can justify your previous statements. But maybe some of your statements were wrong (definitely what you last said about N&B) I'm sure some of it is right too.
I am not going to post any more on this subject. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Richard Herring on Fri Jun 9 17:02:00 BST 2000:

Except to say that we have always just done what we think is funny. We have never followed any path that we think has been dictated to us. Your cynicism is astounding Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Gee on Fri Jun 9 17:03:34 BST 2000:

I think one was number 7 Rob (although I could be wrong.) The other one was UNCUT which also had a rather dodgy picture as well. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Anonymous on Fri Jun 9 17:05:37 BST 2000:

And Mr. Turner's just bitter because Channel 4 turned down another of his piss-poor scripts. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Gee on Fri Jun 9 17:37:42 BST 2000:

Talking of Baddiel:

Did anyone make the same mistake I did and buy Baddiel's Time For Bed? I bought it when it was first published (hardback £14). It was the most pathetic drivel I've ever read (well I got to page 14). It wasn't a novel it was just a very bad stand up routine. I couldn't even give the thing a way.
Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Justin on Fri Jun 9 17:40:00 BST 2000:

>Talking of Baddiel:
>
>Did anyone make the same mistake I did and buy Baddiel's Time For Bed? I bought it when it was first published (hardback £14). It was the most pathetic drivel I've ever read (well I got to page 14). It wasn't a novel it was just a very bad stand up routine. I couldn't even give the thing a way.

I think there are some good jokes in it (mostly, ones I'd heard years ago on The Mary Whitehouse Experience). But it isn't a novel, no sirree.

And as for Sean Hughes...
>

Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Suiii on Fri Jun 9 17:48:22 BST 2000:

I bought Sean Hughes book 'Grey Matter' for 29p at a discount bookstore and I have never felt so cheated. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Justin on Fri Jun 9 17:51:30 BST 2000:

>I bought Sean Hughes book 'Grey Matter' for 29p at a discount bookstore and I have never felt so cheated.

Was that one of his (cough) poetry and prose anthologies?

I got Sean's Book for Christmas one year. Boy, is it not well-thumbed.

Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By subbes on Fri Jun 9 17:59:17 BST 2000:

i read Time Foreed. seemed to me that it was an excuse for him to write about anal sex... Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Malcolm on Fri Jun 9 17:59:35 BST 2000:

I have never been personally abusive on this thread, and have kept solely to opinions on your work. I have in fact praised your ability to discuss your work with detractors like me (unique I think amongst comedians). If you say you have never emulated yourself on N&B, fair enough. But the way you were promoted, and the target audience you were aimed at, and the channel you were shown on, and the timeslot you were given, does bear some similaries. I simply said, you must have known people making similarities would've occurred, so why did you do nothing pre-emptive to stop them? Why didn't you do something totally different?

The N&B criticism was only a small part of my argument.

I understand you must be getting pissed off, your only human and who needs it. But you would keep coming back for more.


ps It was me that tried to end this discussion first, remember. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Suiii on Fri Jun 9 18:17:48 BST 2000:

>Was that one of his (cough) poetry and prose anthologies?
>
Unfortunately yes, a case of Caveat Emptor if ever there was one.

>I got Sean's Book for Christmas one year. Boy, is it not well-thumbed.

I believe mine is proppong up a wonky table leg.
>

I believe m
>

Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Jon on Fri Jun 9 19:16:52 BST 2000:

Malcolm -

"But the way you were promoted, and the target audience you were aimed at, and the channel you were shown on, and the timeslot you were given, does bear some similaries [sic] [to N&B]. "

TMWRNJ was shown on a Sunday. Obviously, they were pitching for the 'Songs Of Praise' demographic. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Gee on Fri Jun 9 19:28:55 BST 2000:

I had a really shite job in a factory for 6 months and I tried finding something to cheer me up during my breaks. I've tried them all: Rob Newman's Independence Day (dull), Sean Hughes' The Grey Area (dull), Time For The Bin (as mentioned above) not one of these books was funny or showed any literary merit. Than I thought, sod these comedians I'll read a novel by a proper writer. I bought Gunter Grass' The Tin Drum. Absolutely brilliant. Pisses on all the aforemention for humour, style and intelligence. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Richard Herring on Sat Jun 10 10:46:28 BST 2000:

We aren't the same - we were a double act, they weren't
We weren't on at the same time. We were not aimed at any audience, never receiving any promotion from the BBC of any kind.
We were doing something different. We were a proper double act and we did very little material about TV or personalities and when we did it was different than what other people were doing.
We co-created On The Hour which was very different than anything anyone was doing.
We were not prepared to cynically try and o something different than we wanted to, to try and get on. We did what we thought was funny and perhaps foolishly thought people would spot that it was different than anything else that anyone else was doing.
Also
I tried to stop the conversation first, but you keep coming back with such rubbish that I can't stop myself
I have definitely said my last word on it now. I hope I have finally made my position clear. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Rob S on Sat Jun 10 11:08:34 BST 2000:

>I think one was number 7 Rob (although I could be wrong.) The other one was UNCUT which also had a rather dodgy picture as well.

Ahh the uncut one was a bugger to edit as I had to use an older machine (plus the tapes weren't a high quality either). I'll look in to 7 though - that was the cress one right?

Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Gee on Sat Jun 10 13:34:48 BST 2000:

Yes it's Show 7 Rob (the one which opens with Ginger Spice) I can hear it, it's just the quality is poor. My real problem is that I only have crappy on-board sound and my computer doesn't go very load. Actually I'm listerning to it now (I writing this using Netscape) and I suppose someone with greater control over their sound could probably turn their computer up more and hear it. It's just with a shite computer like mine I need very good quality. The sound does improve half way through the clip.

If I were Richard Herring I wouldn't waste time replying to Malcolm's comments. It's clear that Malcolm really doesn't have anything valid to say or contribute. Malcolm is only repeating the Newman and Baddiel comparison because he thinks it annoys Richard Herring. But Malcolm what really is annoying is your enthusiasm for irritating people. You say Lee and Herring had a student audience, so therefore they copied Newman and Baddiel. But surely you must realise that nearly all bands and comedians play at colleges because colleges have student unions and student unions book acts. Therefore it is logical that since bands and comedians play at these venues they will build up a student following. Now I know it might seem like a really big sell out to you to aim your comedy at your fan base, but to everyone else the concept is not so foreign. I hope I've cleared things up for you Malcolm. The real world can be quite confusing for some people. One day, Malcolm, you may be living in it. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By David B on Sat Jun 10 19:52:44 BST 2000:

for what it is worth - I have enjoyed so much that Stu and Rich have done over the past few years, and have found them to nbe genuinely warm to all those they meet in bars and ready to make time for those who want to chat argue whatever.

Their work is disparate as a double act I have always felt they were at their best when relaxed and operating with a minimum of pressure - warm up gigs and some of the live shows where they just drofteed and bounced things off eachother. Hence I tend to believe them about the weaknesses in TV material that was beyond their control.

Live they are one of the few acts I can see in rapid succession and find myself still excited and enjoying the act.
As a stand up Stu is amongst the best and I say that as someone who happily tries to get to a fair bit of standup - certainly funnier than Bloom, Izzard, on a consistent basis - by which I mean that his standup is more consistent night in night out.

I have only had a chnace to see one of Rich's plays (playing hide and seek) at a pre edinburgh show. He writes with real warmth and insight which is not to say everything worked, but that compared to a great deal of drama it worked and made me laugh (but then I liked the early runs of outside edge and preston front so what do I know)

I wish them well for the future and am inclined to agree with Rich that in five years time we may not see them on TV or on stage but they will be offering high quality stuff and I look forward to seeing it

Dave Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Jon on Sun Jun 11 10:36:46 BST 2000:

Not THE David B? Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Justin on Sun Jun 11 15:56:28 BST 2000:

>Not THE David B?

Bowie? Bellamy? Bailey?

Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Mr Turner on Mon Jun 12 10:36:40 BST 2000:

As a matter of fact, I have only sent two scripts off to Channel 4 and both have met with very good response and further development. Statistically, I have a 100% suck-cess rate which is miles better than anything YOU could achieve.

"You" presumably being another one of those terrible comedy remoras, or some pretentious comedy bore in a leather box jacket who over-analyses every facet of humour until the entire medium becomes sterile and joyless and fit only for wanky, nitpicking discussions on the micro-factors of some shit play that David Baddiel did ages ago. Anyway, it's all irrelevant since I could beat you in a fight, even if I was about half as hard as I am, which is around 50% harder than Charles Bronson or Michael Ryan, the Rambo killer of Hungerford.

AND you've not realised that people can see your "anonymous" I.P address. Tit. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Mr Turner again on Mon Jun 12 10:51:37 BST 2000:

That rather over-long message that I wrote in response seems rather redundant and now that I've worked out who posted it. I won't mention names, suffice to say that they are quite the most famously unbalanced person on this and several other forums.

You're only annoyed because you can't get hold of your favourite food anymore - Goblin Hamburgers in onion and gravy. Don't take your inadequacies out on me, fucker. I'm not your enemy, so don't piss in my pool just because I'm doing a wee bit better for myself and people can't be bothered responding to your regular paddies in the Cakeshop anymore. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By subbes on Mon Jun 12 14:44:56 BST 2000:

*smiles at him*
Oh, you're so easy to annoy, Iain.



Anyhow, left the cs, and am now hasppily balancing on a garden fence. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Jon on Mon Jun 12 15:03:58 BST 2000:

That's the 2nd time Mr Turner has waded through the source code of this forum to identify someone who commented unfavourably on one of his remarks (sorry, I forgot to fill in the name, thanks for reminding me I'd written the message. I'd forgotten as it wasn't that important to me).

Is any further comment necessary, except: why don't you seek counselling for your obvious insecurity? Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By subbes on Mon Jun 12 17:12:35 BST 2000:

Most people in comedy are insecure, i assumed. the need to make people laugh, to get some kind of validation for existance.

same probably holds true for those who invent ridiculous characters (viz: Mr "I am a nazi" Turner, John! and myself) that have absolutely nothing to do with thier real lives. F'rinstance, i'm really quite sane. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Ewar Woowar on Mon Jun 12 17:20:20 BST 2000:

Ooo, subbes, you utter hypocrite! After your hysterical indignation over the (non-offensive) anonymous poster on the Mark Lamarr thread! I'm stunned, I really am... Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Justin on Mon Jun 12 17:25:47 BST 2000:

>As a matter of fact, I have only sent two scripts off to Channel 4 and both have met with very good response and further development. Statistically, I have a 100% suck-cess rate which is miles better than anything YOU could achieve.
>
If that's all it takes to get you narked, "Mr. Turner", I hope you never do get any rejection letters, then - could damage your health quite seriously ....


Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By subbes on Mon Jun 12 18:31:36 BST 2000:

>After your hysterical indignation over the (non-offensive) anonymous poster on the Mark Lamarr thread! I'm stunned, I really am...


It was mock-indignation, I'm afraid. i only stopped to justify my point, mister woowar.
Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Ewar Woowar on Mon Jun 12 19:18:50 BST 2000:

And I'm only mock-stunned. Oh for a genuine emotion! Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By subbes on Mon Jun 12 19:28:31 BST 2000:

Try boredom. Pretty easy to achieve if you watch enough of this forum. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By subbes on Mon Jun 12 23:13:20 BST 2000:

ouch.

i didnt mean that. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Mr Turner on Tue Jun 13 15:20:46 BST 2000:

For people who quite obviously pride themselves in an intimate, even obsessive, knowledge of comedy, you're pretty shit at spotting a little bit of poorly-executed irony. Cheer up, chaps. Stick on the glad rags and mosey on down to the sarcasm boiler room, you cunts need to take things a little less seriously.

And if I did get angry with you, big deal. Just because someone insults you over a phone line, it doesn't detract from the venom and bitterness of the sender's intention. Which, in actual fact, is pretty meaningless since it's been ages since someone wound me up. The only way you could annoy me is if you punched me with a metal fist, or shoved a scorpion up my arse.

Incidentally, I too am 100% normal. I've got a beautiful French girlfriend with massive tits.

(and yes, I do get some pathetic pleasure out of posting these messages before you say anything) Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Justin on Tue Jun 13 16:46:17 BST 2000:

>(and yes, I do get some pathetic pleasure out of posting these messages before you say anything)

You said it.... Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Pink Moon on Wed Jun 14 11:55:44 BST 2000:

>Incidentally, I too am 100% normal. I've got a beautiful French girlfriend with massive tits.

Um, Can you say "Trying too hard"? If you're so utterly normal, would you really need to boast about it? Hmm? This actually sounds like the sort of thing 12-year-olds say to impress their mates.

Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Anonymous on Wed Jun 14 12:28:07 BST 2000:

>
>>Incidentally, I too am 100% normal. I've got a beautiful French girlfriend with massive tits.
>
>

GM birds now -will these scientists stop at nothing ? Or did she just overfeed them? Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Anonymous on Wed Jun 14 23:41:10 BST 2000:

>
>>Incidentally, I too am 100% normal. I've got a beautiful French girlfriend with massive tits.
>
>Um, Can you say "Trying too hard"? If you're so utterly normal, would you really need to boast about it?


Oh, don't be so fucking ridiculous. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Pink Moon on Thu Jun 15 13:28:40 BST 2000:

>>
>>>Incidentally, I too am 100% normal. I've got a beautiful French girlfriend with massive tits.
>>
>>Um, Can you say "Trying too hard"? If you're so utterly normal, would you really need to boast about it?
>
>
>Oh, don't be so fucking ridiculous.

In what way I am being fucking ridiculous, Mister Anonymouse? I mearly made a point that coming out with things like that doesn't impress anyone. It just makes Mr Turner sound like a fool. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Anonymous on Thu Jun 15 17:34:47 BST 2000:

It was obviously a joke, albeit silly.

You sounded like the biggest fool when you seemingly didn't understand.
Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By Pink Moon on Thu Jun 15 19:08:00 BST 2000:

>It was obviously a joke, albeit silly.
>
>You sounded like the biggest fool when you seemingly didn't understand.
>
Oh. Clearly I am the biggest fool, in which I case I apologise. You may be gratified to know that I now feel very silly indeed. ALTHOUGH, it wasn't exactly an obvious joke. Now, I've made enough of a fool of myself for one day. I'll just leave quietly. Subject: Re: The Herring and The Lee
Posted By mk on Fri Jun 16 15:02:38 BST 2000:

I've never seen so many people called anonymous!
why why why???
It just means you cant differentiate between one persons cowardly insults and the next, which makes it a bit hard to work out which anonymous is replying...
just make up a name for fûÇks sake and stick with it for the duration of the conversation at least....