Not sure. Hang on - I'll ring round a cross-section of friends and see what we come up with. Subject: Re: Focus groups
Posted By Tom Adams on Wed Jul 25 20:15:38 BST 2001:

Presumably a largely impartial circle of friends with no ulterior motives and hidden agenda. And in no way a quango. Subject: Re: Focus groups
Posted By Steve Berry on Wed Jul 25 20:19:59 BST 2001:

>Not sure. Hang on - I'll ring round a cross-section of friends and see what we come up with.

Heh! Nice one.

Subject: Re: Focus groups
Posted By Justin on Wed Jul 25 20:26:14 BST 2001:

I think they're mostly a bad idea, if only because I know myself that I don't know what I like on TV till I've seen it. If you see what I mean.

Focus groups in the States have been hostile towards just about every successful show - including Friends, ER and Seinfeld (mind you, the network - NBC - hated all three too. Until they made shitloads of money). In the case of Seinfeld's pilot, The Seinfeld Chronicles, the focus-group reception was so negative that Larry David (co-creator) has a framed copy in his toilet.

Interestingly, though, the focus group suggested that there should be a female lead character, as there was no such character in the Seinfeld pilot. Enter Elaine. So just occasionally...they get it right. Still don't think I approve though. Subject: Re: Focus groups
Posted By Peter on Wed Jul 25 20:29:47 BST 2001:

It's the same thing with films as well isn't it? a select audiences watches it, says what the like/didn't like, the film is changed, and the results are pretty much the same as what happens with TV focus groups. The opinions don't really matter(perhaps different things would fail and other would be successful) but you have to find an audience, don't you? Subject: Re: Focus groups
Posted By 'The Lord Privy Toast Rack' on Wed Jul 25 20:31:20 BST 2001:

That's pandering to the audience, though, isn't it? You could make the seats really uncomfortable to balance things out. Subject: Re: Focus groups
Posted By Steve Berry on Wed Jul 25 20:31:24 BST 2001:

>Interestingly, though, the focus group suggested that there should be a female lead character, as there was no such character in the Seinfeld pilot. Enter Elaine. So just occasionally...they get it right. Still don't think I approve though.

I think there's a problem if they're taken as gospel. I admit to not knowing a great deal about them. My inclination is not to use them but, to a certain extent, one's own friends are a focus group. You canvass their opinions on films and so on when you go and see them.

It's odd. You wouldn't find an artist using a focus group to guide him towards what sort of things he was drawing (or would he?), but a comedian, say, uses a focus group every night to find out how to moderate delivery and jokes and so on.

Subject: Re: Focus groups
Posted By 'The Lord Privy Toast Rack' on Wed Jul 25 20:32:50 BST 2001:

>It's odd. You wouldn't find an artist using a focus group to guide him towards what sort of things he was drawing (or would he?)

In a Big Train sketch, yes.
Subject: Re: Focus groups
Posted By Steve Berry on Wed Jul 25 20:32:57 BST 2001:

>friends are a focus group. You canvass their opinions on films and so on when you go and see them.

Actually, that's a bad example. 'Cos you can't change the film itself no matter what your mates think.

Subject: Re: Focus groups
Posted By Peter on Wed Jul 25 20:36:26 BST 2001:

You use your friends as a focus group because you trust and value your opinions. You wouldn't walk up to a stranger and say 'what film do you recomend i see this weekend' (or i suppose you might)

An artist doesn't nedd a focus group because it's only his/her own time that they've wasted. A TV show has had a lot of time and money put into it (Well, that's debatable but...) so they need to know if an audience is there (that's probably there reasining anyway). But the writer didn't probably get a lot of people to read the script before he handed it to the production company. Or if he did, well, they were probably friends. Subject: Re: Focus groups
Posted By Justin on Wed Jul 25 20:46:50 BST 2001:

>Interestingly, though, the focus group suggested that there should be a female lead character, as there was no such character in the Seinfeld pilot. Enter Elaine. So just occasionally...they get it right.

Although, thinking about it, that's hardly earth-shatteringly creative in any case, and chances are, David and Seinfeld would have thought up such a character within a few shows anyway. I do know they were under huge pressure to give Jerry's character a girlfriend, so David and Seinfeld stuck two fingers up and invented Elaine as his ex. Can't imagine the focus group came up with that.

(Weird, responding to my own post like that.)



Subject: Re: Focus groups
Posted By 'Gregg' on Wed Jul 25 21:10:47 BST 2001:

An undisputably bad thing.

Listening to audience-wide constructive criticism and seeing if you can learn from it, imrpove the quality of your work next time round, is different. Getting a group of people together to pass judgment during the creative process doesn't actually seem to help. Given the prominance of focus groups, and the downward spiral of general quality (again, I'm not sure that applies to comedy, but certainly to drama), I'm surprised TV hasn't learnt its lesson.

Bad focus group. Bad. Subject: Re: Focus groups
Posted By Unruly Butler on Thu Jul 26 01:54:41 BST 2001:

Terry Gilliam - quoted in Jack Matthews' "The Battle For Brazil" - said that asking groups of people what they'd change about a film was asking for trouble. They'll try to think of something. They don't let themselves go, enjoying the film as it is, rather they look for errors and mistakes, so they can fill in their little forms at the end and feel they're doing their job. In short, they're employed to act like an audience, but end up acting like studio executives.

Like there aren't enough of those interfering with the product already...


(I just tried to find this quote verbatim, but it's late and my copy of the book is too well thumbed to yield the exact bit quickly. Forgive me.) Subject: Re: Focus groups
Posted By Mogwai on Thu Jul 26 02:01:20 BST 2001:

The programme on "Some Like It Hot" earlier this year (or at the end of last) pointed out that the original test audience absolutely hated the film. No-one laughed (except Steve Allen, sat at the back), people were walking out, disgusted at this blatant transvestism, people complained afterwards etc.

They tried another screening, and it brought the house down. The film opened later that year, and it was a smash.

Everyone involved in the film was mystified by that first test audience's reaction. Sadly the programme makers didn't go looking for people who'd been in it, to see if they were still fuming about it. Subject: Re: Focus groups
Posted By Unruly Butler on Thu Jul 26 10:07:37 BST 2001:

Gilliam also noted that they often show films to one preview crowd and react immediately to what they say, while he thinks you should choose a series of audiences (from a social group you intend the film to appeal to) and make small changes after hearing all their reactions. There's no point making a film for 25-35 year olds, then, when the film company decide they want to target the 16-24 market, letting an audience of teens change your movie around. Subject: Re: Focus groups
Posted By mrdiscopop on Thu Jul 26 10:58:39 BST 2001:

I went to a test-screening of "Divorcing Jack" (based on the Colin Bateman Novel) at BAFTA. I saw a fantastic comedy thriller. Laughed out loud several times, and went and told all my friends they should see it when it came out later that year.

But I must have filled the form in all wrong, becuase they hacked it to pieces. The plot changed, characters disappeared, jokes were cut. And it was shit.

On the other hand, if you watch the 'deleted scenes' sections of most DVDs you get the impression that test audiences can be quite useful. Kevin Smith and Steven Soderburgh, to name a few, have jetissoned huge swathes of film that just doesn't work - and they accredit it to test audiences. Subject: Re: Focus groups
Posted By mrdiscopop on Thu Jul 26 10:59:28 BST 2001:

Sorry for the appalling grammar in that last post. Subject: Re: Focus groups
Posted By Unruly Butler on Thu Jul 26 14:03:10 BST 2001:

Maybe it depends on whether the director / writer supervises and responds to the test screening process, rather than the studio inflicting it upon them. Subject: Re: Focus groups
Posted By Dr. Hackenbush on Fri Jul 27 01:10:11 BST 2001:

>An undisputably bad thing, or serve some purpose?
>

All you can do is see if people like something or not, really. If they don't, and you ask them how to fix it, it becomes a bad thing, because their suggestions probably won't make sense.

I once heard someone complain of "From Dusk till Dawn" (admittedly not a great film) that it was "Just so out of context."
Now, if someone tells you that in a test screening, what do you do about it? Subject: Re: Focus groups
Posted By Unruly Butler on Sat Jul 28 10:24:08 BST 2001:

Films are bizarre in that their creators never get to interact with their audience.

TV shows are allowed to have a live audience to fire off, live shows evolve naturally in response to audience reaction etc etc. A playwright always has a chance to change their work before the end of a run if it sinks like a lead balloon on the opening night.

Anyway, if a film director doesn't want a preview screening / focus group thing before releasing his movie, the premiere will just become one. If everyone walks out on the first night, that's his focus group.

At some point the film has to go in front of a bunch of random people who'll react to it. If that happens BEFORE the release date, the makers have a chance to interact with their audience, cut a line, tighten a scene, (or, if you're Sid Sheinberg and you're testing Brazil, change the title, theme, plot, characters and message.)

If the filmmaker waits until the film's actually out there, he still has to go up agaisnt the public vote, only this time it's too late to change and you fall on your arse in full view of the world.

So, in principle, they're unavoidable. We, the audience, are always the focus group.