The Mystery of Babylon and Mother of Harlots, Part I



[Nate] It seems that over time, in an effort to gain Greater membership, the Church of Rome began to Compromise on Doctrine in order to make the Faith more Attractive to Pagans
[Clay] Nate would do his readers a better service if he would define "compromise"; for example, perhaps he is unaware that circumcision is an adaptation of pagan ritual, as are birthday cakes, wedding rings, etc. Adaptation and improvement on an item are not the same thing as "compromising on doctrine". Take the Apostle Paul, for example; Dave Armstrong points out that "he 'incorporated paganism' in a sense when he dialogues with the Greek intellectuals and philosophers on Mars Hill in Athens (Acts 17). He compliments their religiosity (17:22), and comments on a pagan "altar with the inscription, 'To an unknown god.' " (17:23). He then goes on to preach that this "unknown god" is indeed Yahweh, the God of the OT and of the Jews (17:23-24). Then he expands upon the understanding of the true God as opposed to "shrines made by human hands" (17:24-25), and God as Sovereign and Sustaining Creator (17:26-28). In doing so he cites two pagan poets and/or philosophers: Epimenides of Crete (whom he also cites in Titus 1:12) and Aratus of Cilicia (17:28) and expands upon their understanding as well (17:29).

This is basically the same thing that the Church does with regard to pagan feasts and customs: it takes whatever is not sinful and Christianizes it. To me, this is great practical wisdom and a profound understanding of human nature. The frequent Protestant assumption that this is a wholesale adoption of paganism per se, and an evil and diabolical mixture of idolatry and paganism with Christianity is way off the mark. Hopefully, the above defense will answer this "reasoning" adequately...Remember, it was Paul who stated, 'To the weak I became weak, so that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that I might by all means save some." (1 Cor 9:22)

Let it further be known that since the Friends & Workers have no formally defined statement of doctrine, any examination of potential compromise is made difficult (perhaps purposely?).
[Nate] Many Roman Catholic rituals have their seeds in Paganism. The Worship of Virgin Mary is No where[sic] to be found in the Teaching of Jesus Christ or the Apostles. This seems to have come from the Pagan Worship of the goddess Isis. There have been found Carved Images dating back to ancient Babylon showing Mother and Child god-type figures, which were objects of Worship.
[Clay] You won't find Jesus or the Apostles teaching the worship of Mary for one very important reason - Mary is NOT worshipped! She is honored, just as holy Scripture proves that, "most blessed are you among women" (Luke 1:42). Nate has deliberately misrepresented Catholic teaching here.
[Nate] We are instructed in the Bible that the Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are alone to be the Object of our Prayers. Yet, Roman Catholic's [sic] are instructed to not ONLY offer Prayers to Virgin Mary, but also to numerous others that the Popes have decreed to be "Saints." The halls of the Vatican and Catholics [sic] Churches all over the world are filled with these Idols.This is why the Antichrist is considered the antitypical Babylon.
[Clay] Have you ever asked someone else to pray for you? Catholics are merely following Paul's recommendation, "First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. This is good and pleasing to God our saviour." (1 Tim 2:1-2). It just so happens that Catholics also ask those who have gone before, who are STILL very much alive (Mk 12:26-27, Mk 9:4) as part of the Body of Christ (Eph 4:4), who cannot be separated from Christ (Rom 8:35-39) and whose prayers are very, very effective (James 5:16).
[Nate] "Babylon the Great " (Rev. 17:5) The Word stands for Confusion. What greater confusion is there than the various false doctrines and conflicting creeds of Papacy?
[Clay] Babylon in Revelation is a code name for either pagan Rome, or apostate Jerusalem (more on this later). Since "the papacy" wasn't even in Rome at the time, how could Babylon refer to the Catholic Church?
[Nate] The act of Confession participated in by members of the church is in direct conflict with the words of Paul in (I Timothy 2:6) " For there is One God and One Mediator between God and man, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all."
[Clay] Actually, that quote is from verse 5, not verse 6, in Paul's first letter to Timothy, but anyway, note that in the very preceeding verses Paul asks us to be mediators for each other: "First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone ... This is good and pleasing to God our saviour" (1 Tim 2:1-2). Did Paul contradict himself later? Of course not, because this in no way whatsoever replaces Jesus as the ultimate mediator. Scripture is absolutely FULL of reminders to pray for each other - this very activity is a form of subordinate mediatorship (Rom 15:30, Col 4:3, 1 Thess 5:25, 2 Thess 1:11, 2 Thess 3:1, Eph 6:18-19, Rev 5:8).
[Nate] According to Church tradition the priest who hears Confession is acting as a go between[sic] to God on Your Behalf. This is an abomination before the throne of God. We are told directly by Jesus Christ to his disciples (Matthew 23: 9) "Call NO man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, who is in heaven."
[Clay] Oops, then what about the commandment to "honor thy father and mother"? Should we just call him "male parent"? Stephen calls Jewish leaders father (Acts 7:2), Paul calls Jerusalem Jews father (Acts 21:40, 22:1), Paul calls Abraham "the father of us all" (Rom 4:16-17), and he says he became our father "in Christ through the gospel" (1 Cor 4:14-15). It becomes fairly obvious that Jesus was warning people not to honor their leaders like they honor God, since true spiritual fatherhood is found many, many places in Scripture (including 1 Tim 1:2, Titus 1:4, Heb 12:7-9, Lk 14:26, 1 Thess 2:11, Philemon 10, 1 Jn 2:13-14).
[Nate] Yes, Antichrist is real, yes! Antichrist has caused great Harm upon the Lord's People. However, antichrist is Not an Individual Man, but an Organization System represented by its Head. The antichrist and its Evil Tyranny have been with us for almost 1800 years under the Direction of the Roman Catholic Pope. It is important to remember that No Individual Pope is the "Man of Sin" mentioned by the Apostle Paul . It is the SYSTEM! Many Roman Catholic Popes over the Centuries have ordered the Slaughter of Hundreds of Thousands and Millions of Men, Women, and Children They have Burned people at stakes, Boiled them in Oil Roasted them over slow fires, Crushed Skulls, Beheaded, Hanged, Maimed, Bound people to torture racks, etc. This was all done in the name of Jesus Christ.
[Clay] "Hundreds of thousands and millions"? Nate appears to be mathematically-challenged, but anyway, this is what is known as the logical fallacy of appeals to emotion. While it is true that certain Catholics have done evil things, the quality and quantity of such things have been distorted in an effort avoid actually discussing Catholic doctrine. While we're at it, however, feel free to browse through the history the persecution of Catholics here).
[Nate] What were these "Heretics"[sic] Crimes you might ask? They were True Christians who refused to embrace the numerous Unscriptural doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church. They refused to bow down and Worship the Pope as the Vicar of Christ. These Martyred Saints were willing to Die rather turn away from the precious doctrines given to the Lord's People through the Scriptures. Many more were executed for Simply possessing a Bible . For much of the "Dark Ages," by decree of the Pope, it was a Crime punishable by Death to Own One!.
[Clay] Nate doesn't bother to actually define what these groups believed, nor does he provide any such papal decree. Instead, he makes the fundamental error of assuming that anyone who was persecuted must have been a “true Christian”. Take a look at one of the groups Nate believes were "true Christians", the Albigenses, and see what you think. Finally, no matter what these groups believed, no Catholic worships the pope.
[Nate] Drunken with the Blood of the Saints! (Revelation 17:6) The Great Harlot Woman spoken as the Great Persecutor of the Saints > is clearly the Catholic Church. Among the claim of Papacy is that the Church is the "Mother Church," in effect She says, "I Sit as a Queen and Am no widow, and will see no sorrow."
[Clay] Wrong – “the epithet ‘harlot’ recalls the prophetic oracles against a faithless Jerusalem as well as against other cities” (Collegeville Bible Commentary New Testament, p. 1292):

Isaiah 1:21-22 “How has she turned adulteress, the faithful city, so upright! Justice used to lodge within her, but now, murderers.”

Ezekiel 16:15 “But you were captivated by your own beauty, you used your renown to make yourself a harlot, and you lavished your harlotry on ever passer-by, whose own you became”

Honest scriptural exegesis proves that apostasy from the covenant is often likened by the prophets to unfaithfulness to the marriage vow, in this case those Jews who did not accept the Christ (apostate Jerusalem) broke the Old Covenant with God the Father (see also Is 23:15-18 and Ez 23:3-49).

Unfortunately for Nate, the people he thinks were persecuted saints were actually Catholics (see here), and they were persecuted by pagan Rome, not the Vatican, which did not settle in Rome until centuries later!
[Nate] She is the First of Many Systems of false religion that have flourished in the 3rd century until now. Roman Catholic's [sic]history often refers to the centuries of Papal Persecution as "Crusades" or "Holy Wars." In truth these were nothing more than religious Genocides.
[Clay] Such ignorance of the potential impact of Islam's assault on Christianity is embarassing, particularly in the context of the recent terrorist attacks of 2001. While the Crusades were in many ways miserable failures, they are also what saved Europe from being dominated by Muslims. For a more reasoned evaluation of the Crusades, click here.
[Nate] Consider the deeds of Fredrick[sic] , the Emperor of Germany, in AD 1224. At the Pope's command, he sentenced Heretics of every description alive to the flames and their property, Confiscated unless they became persecutors of Non-Catholics.
[Clay] What Nate neglects to mention is that Frederick II was exommunicated twice by Pope Gregory IX for trying to gain too much power and wealth by such means.
[Nate] Among the victims of Papal Genocide were the Waldenses, Abigenses [sic] , Wycliffites, and Huguenots. The things that all of these groups had in common was their rejection of the Papal doctrines of Purgatory, Image Worship, Invocation of Saints, Virgin Mary Worship, Holy Communion, Celibacy of the Clergy, Indulgences, etc. These groups stood for reformation long before the days of Martin Luther and Calvin. The People, without discrimation [sic], were put to death. Four Hundred (400) People were burned Alive! The nation of Languedoc was Devasted, its cities were burned and its people swept away by Fire and Sword. It is estimated 100,000 Albigenses fell One[sic] day.
[Clay] Wrong - Catholics do not worship images, icons, Mary, statues, stained glass windows, crucifixes, potato chips that look like Jesus, etc. See the Waldenses and the Albigenses.
[Nate] The Duke of Alva boasted of the Execution of 18,000 Protestants in 6 weeks. Historian Paolo reckons the number killed in the Netherlands at 50,000; Groitus gives the list of Belgic martyrs at 100,000.
[Clay] Meanwhile, the Duke’s own successor, Requesens, estimated the number of deaths to be 6,000, not 18,000 (Gachard, Etudes, II, 366). Such body count arguments are childish, inflammatory, and ultimately self-defeating, because Catholics have been persecuted on a much larger scale (see below).
[Nate] The Massacre at Organe in AD 1562, done by an Italian Army sent by Pope Pius IV, who commanded them to Kill Men, Women, and Children was accomplished with horrid Cruelty. The Defenseless Heretics were slain with the Sword, thrown from Cliffs, thrown in points of hooks and dagger, hanged, roasted over the slow fires, and expose to shame and torture of every description.
[Clay] On the contrary, Pius IV was so mild in his dealings with “heretics” that an attempt was made on his life by someone who questioned his orthodoxy (MURATORI, Annali d'Italia). I challenge Nate to produce proof of such a command by this pope.
[Nate] The Papal siege of Paris on August 24th 1572, was just heinous. The city flow with blood, as the king and queen gazed with extreme satisfaction. During this week these soldiers had ordered to Kill every Huguenots. The number slain were estimated to be from 25,000 to 70,000. The Pope issued Commemorative Medals of these Genocides.
[Clay] Here is a perfect example of why this is a self-defeating argument, because there were atrocities on both sides of the Catholic/Protestant divide. “Everywhere the mutual animosities found vent in acts of violence. Huguenots were massacred in one place, monks and religious in another. Wherever the insurgents gained the mastery, churches were sacked, statues and crosses mutilated, sacred utensils profaned in sacrilegious burlesques, and relics of saints cast into the flames. The most serious encounters took place at Orléans, where the Duke of Guise was treacherously assassinated by a Huguenot.” (BROWNING, History of the Huguenots) What Nate is referring to is what is known as the “St. Bartholemew’s Day Massacre”

“The Popes had nothing to do with the massacre of St. Bartholomew's Day. Pius V did not plan the massacre with Catherine de Medicis, nor did he ever urge it upon the French court in any way; Gregory XIII never approved of the crime, but had a 'Te Deum' sung in Thanksgiving for the saving of the King and the royal court from death, according to advices sent him from the French court . . . The massacre was a dastardly political crime of Catherine de Medicis, planned the evening before to avert the possible consequences of her attempted assassination of Coligny on August 22 [1572; the massacre occurred on the 24th]. Catherine had as much zeal for the Catholic religion as a modern bootlegger has for the cause of prohibition. She was a freethinker of the school of Machiavelli, bred in the worst traditions of the Italian tyrants, and ruling one of the most corrupt courts of Christendom . . . No one holds today that the massacre was premeditated . . . Not a bishop of France was present at the meeting that planned the massacre; no bishop ever gave it his approval. The Cardinal of Lorraine, who is often pictured blessing the daggers of the murderers of Paris, was actually in Rome when the massacre occurred . . . That France lied to the Pope about the facts of the case, describing the massacre as the just punishment of conspirators, we know from the reports of the King's messenger, De Beauvillier, and from the letters of the French ambassador de Ferals, the Cardinal de Bourbon, and the Papal nuncio. Brantome, in his Memoirs, says that when the Pope learned the real facts, he shed bitter tears, and denounced the massacre 'as unlawful and forbidden by God.' (Bertrand Conway, The Question Box , NY: Paulist Press, rev. ed., 1929, pp.199-200)
[Nate] "Every Cleric must Obey the Pope, even if He commands what is Evil; for no one may judge the Pope." Pope Innocent III (1198-1216).
[Clay] Nate neither provides the actual citation, nor does he ever prove that a pope has “commanded evil”. On the contrary, here is one such command to the reform the clerical corruption, “That the morals and general conduct of clerics may be better let all strive to live chastely and virtuously, particularly those in sacred orders, guarding against every vice of desire, especially that on account of which the anger of God came from heaven upon the children of unbelief, so that in the sight of Almighty God they may perform their duties with a pure heart and chaste body. But lest the facility to obtain pardon be an incentive to do wrong, we decree that whoever shall be found to indulge in the vice of incontinence, shall, in proportion to the gravity of his sin, be punished in accordance with the canonical statutes, which we command to be strictly and rigorously observed, so that he whom divine fear does not restrain from evil, may at least be withheld from sin by a temporal penalty. If therefore anyone suspended for this reason shall presume to celebrate the divine mysteries, let him not only be deprived of his ecclesiastical benefices but for this twofold offense let him be forever deposed. Prelates who dare support such in their iniquities, especially in view of money or other temporal advantages, shall be subject to a like punishment. But if those. who according to the practice of their country have not renounced the conjugal bond, fall by the vice of impurity, they are to be punished more severely, since they can use matrimony lawfully.” (Canon 14, Lateran IV)
[Nate] "The First See (Rome/Papacy) is judged by no one. It is the right of the Roman Pontiff himself alone to Judge...those who hold the highest civil office in a state. There is neither Appeal nor Recourse against a decision or decree of the Roman Pontiff." From Today's Code of Canon Law. "It is not enough for the People only to know that the Pope is the Head of the Church. They must also understand that their own Faith and religious life flow from him; that in him is the bond which unites Catholics to one another, and the Power which strengthens and the light which guides them; that he is the dispenser of spiritual graces, the giver of the benefits of religion, the Upholder of Justice, and the Protector of the oppressed."
[Clay] This has to do with papal infallibility. Catholics believe that the pope is protected from teaching error on matters of faith and morals – it has nothing to do with his personal behavior. “The Roman Pontiff, when he speaks ex cathedra - that is, when in discharge of the office of Pastor and Doctor of all Christians, by virtue of his supreme apostolic authority, he defines a doctrine regarding Faith or Morals to be held by the Universal Church – by the Divine assistance promised to him in Blessed Peter, is possessed of the infallibility with which the Divine Redeemer willed that His Church should be endowed in defining doctrine regarding Faith or Morals; and therefore such definitions of the Roman Pontiff are irreformable of themselves, and not in virtue of the consent of the Church.” (Vatican I). Since Jesus established an authoritative (Mt 28:18-20, Lk 10:16) and perpetual (Is 9:6-7, Mt 16:18, Jn 14:16, Lk 1:32-33) church with the promise of infallible guidance (Jn 16:13, Jn 14:26, 1 Tim 3:15, Acts 15:28, 1 Jn 2:27) and since the pope is the successor (Mal 2:7, Eph 2:20, Eph 4:11, 1 Cor 12:28-29, Acts 1:20-26, 2 Tim 2:2) of Peter, who was the first pope (Mt 16:16-19, Lk 22:32, Jn 21:15-17, Mk 16:7, Lk 24:34, Acts 1:13-26, Acts 2:14, Acts 2:41, Acts 3:6-7, Acts 5:1-11, Acts 8:21, Acts 10:44-46, Acts 15:7, Acts 15:19, Gal 1:18; Peter’s name appears 195 times in Scripture, more than all the rest put together), I defy Nate, or anyone else, to produce any such doctrine that is “wrong”.
Many of the Information below are found in: Foxe's book of Martyrs edited by William B. Forbush. (Chapter IV). ***** Persecution of the Waldenses in France. Popery having bought various innovations into the church, and overspread the Christian world with Darkness and Superstition, some few, who plainly perceived the pernicious tendency of such errors, determined to show the Light of the Gospel in its real Purity, and to dispel those clouds which artful priests had raised about it, in order to blind the people, and obscured its real brightness.
[Clay] Nate is not offering any new content in this area, rather, he is repeating previous errors made elsewhere on his site – please refer to the article Waldenses.
[Nate] The Principle among these was Berengarius, who about the year 1000 A.D. boldly preached Gospel Truths, according to their Primitive Purity. Many, from Conviction, assented to his doctrine, and were, on that account called Berengarians.
[Clay] And Berengarius was a Catholic, whose main error had only to do with the Real Presence of Christ in the Bread and Wine. Incidently, on three separate occasions, he signed confessions of faith affirming the Real Presence. So much for 2x2 origins….
[Nate] To Berengarius Succeeded Peer Bruis [sic], who preached at Toulouse, under the protection of an earl, named Hildephonsus; and the whole tenets of the reformers, with the reasons of their separation from the Church of Rome, were published in a book written by Bruis, under the title of "Antichrist."
[Clay] Nate is repeating himself again. See the article entitled, “What Did Peter de Bruys’ Really Teach?”.
[Nate] In A.D. 1147, because of Henry of Toulouse, deemed their most eminent Preacher, they were called Henericans [sic]; and as they Would Not admit of any proofs relative to religion, but what could be deduced from the Scriptures themselves, the Popish party gave them the name of Apostolic.
[Clay] Most honest scholars admit that not enough evidence survived to make a judgment regarding Henri’s true beliefs, yet this doesn’t stop Nate from assuming (without supporting data) that he was a “true Christian”. Unfortunately for Nate, Henri denied the existence of Original Sin, and he adopted the ancient Pelagian heresy that through our own efforts and works a person can merit salvation, apart from God. (“William the Monk: The Debate with Henry Le Mans,” in Peters, Heresy and Authority, pp. 75-78). Even if Nate wishfully thinks that Henri was an original 2x2 reformer, he has some competition from certain Baptists (Baptist Encyclopedia, vol I, p. 518).
[Nate] At length, Peter Waldo, Valdo, a native of Lyons, eminent for his Piety and Learning, became a strenuous opposer of Popery; and from him the reformed, at that time, received the appellation of Waldenses or Waldoys. ***** Pope Alexander III being informed by the Bishop of Lyons of these transactions, excommunicated Waldo and his adherents, and commanded the bishop to exterminate them; if possible, From The Face of The Earth, hence began the Papal Persecutions against the Waldenses. ***** The proceedings of Waldo and the reformed, occasioned the first rise of the inquisitors; for Pope Innocent III authorized certain monks as inquisitors, to inquire for, and deliver over, the reformed to the secular power. The process was short, as an accusation was deemed adequate to guilt, and a candid trial was never granted to the accused.
[Clay] More redundancy on Nate’s part – see the article on the Waldenses.
[Nate] The Pope finding that these cruel means had not the intended effect, sent several learned monks to preach among the Waldenses, and to endeavor to argue them out of their opinions. Among these monks was one Dominic, who appeared extremely Zealous in the cause of Popery. This Dominic instituted an order, which, from him, was called the order of Dominican Friars; the members of this Order have ever since been the principle inquisitors in the various inquisitions in the World. The Power of the Inquisitors was Unlimited; they proceeded against whom they pleased, without any consideration of Age, Sex or Rank. To be rich was a crime equal to heresy, therefore many who had money were accused of heresy, or of being favorers of heretics, that they might be obliged to pay for their opinions. No lawyer dared to plead for his own brother, and their malice even extended beyond the grave, hence the bones of many were dug up and burnt, as examples to the living.
[Clay] “To be rich was a crime equal to heresy” is a outrageous lie. Nathan Barker will have to hold an account for his false witness, and I will pray for his soul.
[Nate] Persecution of the Abigenses. [sic] The Abigenses [sic] were a people of the reformed religion, who inhabited the country of Albi. They were condemned by the order of Pope Alexander III. Nevertheless, they increased so prodigiously, that persons only of their persuasion inhabited many cities, and several eminent noblemen embraced their doctrines. Among the latter were Raymond, earl of Toulouse, Raymond, Earl of Foix, Tearl of Beziers, etc. This was followed by a sever[sic] persecution against the Albigense [sic], and express orders that the Laity should Not permitted to read the Sacred Scripture. In the year 1620 also, the persecution against them the Albigenses was very severe. In 1684 a heavy persecution raged throughout Lithuania and Poland.
[Clay] It should be noted that Pope Lucius III first attempt to counter this heretical group did not involve the Church, but secular authorities, in his decree Ad Abolendam (De Haereticis, cap. Ix), and even the Baptist scholar McGoldrick notes that there were times when, much like during the Spanish Inquisition, “atrocities were perpetrated by CIVIL AUTHORITIES without resort to inquisitorial proceedings” (Baptist Successionism: A Crucial Crusade in Baptist History, p. 66). Pope Innocent III followed suit by recommending that those deemed heretics be handed over to the secular authorities:

"Let those condemned be handed over to the secular authorities present, or to their bailiffs, for due punishment...Let secular authorities, whatever offices they may be discharging, be advised and urged and if necessary be compelled by ecclesiastical censure, if they wish to be reputed and held to be faithful, to take publicly an oath for the defence of the faith to the effect that they will seek, in so far as they can, to expel from the lands subject to their jurisdiction all heretics designated by the church in good faith." (4th Lateran Council, canon 3)”

Furthermore, the consequence of holding heretical views were not immediately met with bloodthirsty torture and mayhem; according to the decrees from the 4th Lateran Council, they were to have their goods confiscated, clerics were to be removed from their orders, they were not allowed access to the sacraments or Christian burial - do any of these sound like the bloodbath Nate Barker would have you believe? It should also be noted that violence occurred on both sides; for example, it actually wasn’t until papal legate Peter of Castelnau was murdered by nobles who supported the Albigenses that Pope Innocent III called for a Crusade (Laux, Church History, p. 353). In Italy the Albigenses set fire to churches in Brescia and assassinated the Bishop of Mantua (Emmanuel Le Roy Ladurie, Montaillou: The Promised Land of Error). Furthermore, the presence or absence of persecution is not an acceptable criterion for determining whether a group is orthodox or not; in fact, this group whom Nate characterizes as “reformed religion” were decidedly UN-CHRISTIAN (see Albigenses link). Also, the Church has never forbidden the reading of approved Scriptures.
[Nate] The reformation of Papistical error very early was projected in France; for in the third century a learned man, named Almericus, and six of his disciples, were ordered to be burnt at Paris for asserting that God was no otherwise present in the sacramental bread, than in any other Bread; that it was idolatry to Build Altars or Shrines to saints and that it was ridiculous to offer incense to them. The martyrdom of Americus[sic] and his Pupils did not, however, prevent many from acknowledging the justness of his notions, and seeing the purity of the reformed religion, so that the Faith of Christ continually increased, and in time not only Spread itself over many parts of France, but diffused the Light of the Gospel over various other countries as well.
[Clay] If Nate wants to compare body counts, so be it - By the year 1710, 200,000 Japanese Catholics were murdered for their faith
[Nate] In the year 1524, at a town in France, called Melden, one, John Clark, set up a bill on the Church door, wherein he called the "Pope antichrist." For this offence he was repeatedly whipped, and then branded on the forehead. Going afterward to Mentz, in Lorraine, he demolished some images, for which he had his right hand and nose cut off, and his arms and breast torn with pincers. He sustained these cruelties with amazing fortitude, and was even sufficiently cool to sing the 115 Psalm, which expressly forbids idolatry; after which he was thrown into the fire, and burnt to ashes.
[Clay] Catholic priest Edmund Campion was executed by English Protestants in 1581 for practicing his Catholic faith. He was “was derisively paraded through the streets of his native city, bound hand and foot, riding backwards, with a paper stuck in his hat to denote the "seditious Jesuit"….examined under torture…denied opportunity to prepare his debate, and had been severely racked. Thus weakened, he stood through the four long conferences, without chair, table, or notes, and stood undefeated. Campion, pleading not guilty, was quite unable to hold up his often-wrenched right arm, seeing which, a fellow prisoner, first kissing it, raised it for him. He made a magnificent defence. But the sentence was death, by hanging, drawing, and quartering…On the scaffold, when interrupted and taunted to express his mind concerning the Bull of Pius V excommunicating Elizabeth, he answered only by a prayer for her, "your Queen and my Queen". A wild, generous-hearted youth, Henry Walpole, standing by, got his white doublet stained with Campion's blood; the incident made him, too, in time, a Jesuit and a martyr…Historians of all schools are agreed that the charges against Campion were wholesale sham. They praise his high intelligence, his beautiful gaiety, his fiery energy, his most chivalrous gentleness.” (CE).
[Nate] Many persons of the reformed persuasion were, about this time, beaten, racked, scourged, and burnt to death, in several parts of France, but more particularly at Paris, Malda, and Limosin.
[Clay] “During the upheaval of the mid-1990’s in Burundi (Africa), not only individual priests and catechists (Catholic teachers), but churches and chapels were attacked. At times, whole congregations of parishioners were caught in the violence and religious leaders were subjected to prolonged tortures, such as having their bodies mutilated with machetes before being killed. In 1993 alone, though exact figures are difficult to come by, something like one hundred thousand people died and a million became refugees” The home of a bishop, being used as a sanctuary from a previous attack in which 17 had died, was invaded by military forces – “in this one attack alone, three hundred people fell.” Another local bishop was killed by soldiers who “pulled him from his car, tore the cross off his neck, and crushed his skull with a club, killing him.” In Uganda, Father Gabriel Banduga was captured by soldiers who “tied a rope around his waist and dragged him around the area; finally, tiring of the game, they cut off his ears and ordered him to eat them.” (Royal, The Catholic Martyrs of the 20th Century, pp. 381-385)
[Nate] A native of Malda was burnt by a slow fire, for saying that "Mass was a plain denial of the death and passion for Christ."
[Clay] Father Miguel Pro was executed, without any legal procedures, by Mexican authorities in 1926, at a time when Catholicism was outlawed. All priests were forced to go into hiding – Miguel Pro adopted many interesting disguises in carrying out his secret mininstry. He would come in the middle of the night dressed as a beggar to baptize infants, bless marriages and celebrate Mass. He would appear in jail dressed as a police officer to bring Holy Viaticum to condemned Catholics. When going to fashionable neighboorhoods to procure for the poor, he would show up at the doorstep dressed as a fashionable businessmam with a fresh flower on his lapel. When it came time to face the firing squad, he refused the blindfold, prayed, and died proclaiming, “Viva Cristo Rey", which means, "Long live Christ the King!"
[Nate]Francis Bribard, secretary to Cardinal De Pellay, for speaking in favor of the reformed, had his tongue cut out, and was then burnt. A.D. 1554.
[Clay] Catholic priest Thomas More was executed by King Henry VIII because he refused to give him an annulment for his marriage. While waiting for his impending death, he wrote his Treatise on the Passion, “He that is stronghearted may find a thousand glorious valiant martyrs whose example he may right joyously follow. But thou now, 0 timorous and weak, silly sheep, think it sufficient for thee only to walk after Me which am thy Shepherd and Governor and so mistrust thyself and put thy trust in Me.”
[Nate]James Cobard, a schoolmaster in the city of St. Michael, was burnt, A.D. 1554, for saying "That Mass was Useless and Absurd" About the same time, 14 men were burnt at Malda, their wives being compelled to watch the execution.
[Clay] The revolutionary party which took possession of the city after the siege of Paris by the Prussians in 1871 captured and murdered Catholic priests and laypeople, simply because they were Catholic. Six men, including the archbishop of Paris, were gunned down within the prison of La Roquette on May 24th. On the next day, 11 Dominican priests were shot, after suffering from hunger and thirst. Their bodies were left lying on the ground until the troops from Versailles took back control of the Commune. On May 26th, over 50 Catholics were rounded up and hacked to pieces by men, women, and even children (CE).
[Nate] A.D. 1546, Peter Chapot brought a number of Bible in the French Language to France, and publicly sold them there; for which he bought to trial, sentenced, and executed a few day[sic] afterwards.
[Clay] Thomas Becket was cut down by the swords of 4 knights of the king of France in 1169 for refusing to allow further corruption - his last words were: 'I accept death for the name of Jesus and for the Church.'
[Nate] In short, they practiced every wickedness and horror they could devise to force others by saying, "Die, or be Catholics!" They hanged both men and women by their hair or their feet, and smoked them with hay until they were nearly dead; and if they still refused to sign a recantation, they hung them up again and repeated their barbarities, until wearied out with torments without death. Others they plucked off all the hair of their heads and beards with Pinchers. Others they threw on great fires, and pull them out again, repeating it until they exhorted a promise of recant. Some stripped naked, and after offering them the most insults, they stuck them with pins head to foot, and lanced them with penknives; and sometimes with red-hot pincers they dragged them by the nose until they promised to turn. Sometimes they tied fathers and husbands, while they ravished their wives and daughters before their eyes. Multitudes they imprisoned in the most noise some dungeons, where they practiced all sorts of torments in secret.
[Clay] In the 50 years prior to the French takeover of Vietnam, between 100,000 and 300,000 Vietnamese Catholics were slaughtered or persecuted. Here are just a few eyewitness accounts: Communist forces entered a school that had been discussing religion. Two children had chopsticks shoved into their ears so that they would never hear such things ever again. The teacher had his tongue held out by pliers and cut off by a bayonet. A priest was hung by his feet and beaten with bamboo. Another priest was given a crown of thorns and eight nails were hammered into his head.
[Nate] According to time Magazine, March 20, 2000. Act of contribution[sic]: In the year Jubilee and the season of Lent, Pope John Paul II confronts the Crusades, Inquisition, the Holocaust, and other horrors in seeking to Express to regret for sins Committed by Catholics in the past 2000 years. Pope John Paul II began his Holy Land pilgrimage of reconciliation for the three monotheistic faiths of Abraham: Judaism, Christianity and Islam.
[Clay] As should be painfully obvious by now, horrible things are done to people in the name of many different ideologies, whether they be Protestant, Catholic, Muslim, or atheist. All that it proves that that people are sinners, which should not come as a surprise to anyone. Pope John Paul II should be applauded for his forthrightness in trying to reconcile previous churchmembers’ behavior to the rest of the world. Only in universal healing can there be universal peace.
[Nate] The Jews hope for specific apology for the Roman Catholic church's virtual silence during World War II genocide by Nazi Germany that left 6 million European Jews dead---as well as for centuries of anti-Jewish church doctrine.
[Clay] This is a damnable lie invented only within the last 50 years. Not only did the Catholic Church save more Jews from Nazi Germany than any other group, secular or religious (especially 2x2’s), there were millions of Catholics who ALSO died in the Holocaust, including over 1,300 Polish priests in the concentration camps. In fact, Pope Pius XII alone is credited for having saved over 800,000 Jews – in gratitude, the World Jewish Congress sent 2 million lire as a gift to the Vatican after the war, saying their “first duty was to thank him and the Catholic Church for all they had done to rescue Jews.” Isaac Herzog, the chief rabbi of Jerusalem noted that “The people of Israel will never forget what His Holiness and his illustrious delegates, inspired by the eternal principles of religion which form the very foundations of true civilization, are doing for our unfortunate brothers and sisters in the most tragic hour of our history, which is the living proof of divine Providence in this world.” (Lapide, Three Popes and the Jews).

Instead of accepting a vicious mistruth, the reader is invited to read Albert Einstein’s opinion of whether the Church had been “silent” – “Only the [Catholic] Church stood squarely in the path of Hitler’s campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess, that what I once despised, I now praise unreservedly.” (Time Magazine, December 23, 1940; p. 40).

Or, read the New York Times editorials on two consecutive years Christmas Day 1941 and 1942. On December 25, 1941, the editorial praised Pope Pius XII for being “a lonely voice crying out of a silence of a continent” for his “clear stand he takes on the fundamental issues of the conflict”. For those interested, read Ronald Rychlak’s “Hitler, the War, and the Pope”.
[Nate] Muslims look back and remember that the brutalities of the Crusades against them were initiated by Pope Urban II in 1095.
[Clay] Just as they should look back and remember the brutalities of their attacks on Christianity in the first millennium. Again, this is not an effort to avoid any history of Catholic atrocities, only to point out that this argument goes both ways.
[Nate] The Roman Catholic Church has declared the year 2000 a Jubilee, or "Holy year," of penance and prayers of its 1 Billion followers that requires "purification of memory" for the church to progress. The Vatican apologized for those Nazi-era misdeeds in a major document in 1988. That Apology was strengthening last week, when the pope said he was "deeply saddened by Catholics who "in the course of history" caused Jews to suffer.
[Clay] Actually, Pope Pius XII was a tireless supporter of the Jews. Even before he became pope, he helped then pope Pius XI to wrote the encyclical Mit Brennender Sorge, written specifically in German due to the development of the Nazi party, which vigorously condemned anti-Semitism.

End Part I


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© Copyright Clay Randall, 2001