Scenery
Topic: Belle de Jour
I'm not done with thinking about the issues raised in a previous post - the one that tried to explain why the dyke scene scares me. It's going to temporarily make the blog look a bit like a messageboard if I do this, and I'm sorry, but the guys who commented on that post got me wondering about several things, and I want your responses. (Gay or straight, if it needs saying.)
Why does what we 'identify' as have such an impact on the kinds of spaces we make available on the scene? Isn't 'gay' a broad enough genus to allow for some individualism?
Cyn
The straight dating scene sucks, but lesbian hook-ups sound almost unbearable.
It seems from what you describe, many (most?) lesbians identify themselves
first as lesbians; you seem to i.d. yourself first as Vanessa and secondarly as
a lesbian woman, putting you out of synch with the other women.
For the life of me I can't think of any good suggestions--probably best as I
know bugger all about dating (either sex) or shagging a woman.
Do any of the gay clubs have tea parties?
At one point, someone in London set up a wine bar for 'professional lesbians' who disliked the meat market feel of the scene. I, Tybalt and Toulouse went along, to see who was there in its second opening week. It was very white, tiled, green ferns and piano (very Ritz). As Toulouse later said, it reminded you of a seventies film about the twenties, somehow.
Needless to say it folded as soon as their money ran out. The next lesbian club to set itself up was Candy Bar, which marketed itself as lapdancing for dykes.
Sigh.
lemonpillows
I soooooo know where you're coming from.
Was just talking about this today with a friend. The whole thing about not
being able to go out and stay sober because of the sheer amount of hassle you
get - it's easier to stay in.
That said though, I *forced* myself to go
out, even though I had plenty of excuses and no motivation for it. I'm starting
to get used to it now. It still stinks, but I suppose it's better than nothing,
and I've actually enjoyed myself a few times.. Try forcing yourself out one
time.. See if you end up enjoying yourself.. You never know...
I always enjoy myself - I'm not shy once I'm out. It's the ordeal of working yourself up to it and wondering if it's worth it, I think.
I think.
Lemonpillows
True, true.. Finding something to wear is just so traumatic nowadays. Has all sorts of connotations - especially if you're going somewhere 'gay'. It's like the hanky rule. Whether you wear a t-shirt and jeans/shirt/blouse/trousers/skirt.
lemonpillows
I dream of a 'gay' place (preferrably lesbian, actually) that sells *decent*
tea and coffee.. Where you can lunch, chat, smoke in a special smoking area,
but be unaffected if you sit in the no-smoking section. With relaxing but very
very good music. Free newspapers to read and comfy sofas to sit on.. And stays
open as long as the pubs do.. And where everyone dresses how they damn-well
like.
*sigh*
I maybe be waiting a long time...
Well, that's what First Out was always like, in my experience, but you'd have to move to London.
oh! First Out! That's where my london friend always takes me when we don't feel stylish enough to face the Candy Bar! I loved that place. Has it shut now or something?
even in Edinburgh, other lesbians never *really* liked me. I think I scared them, or they scared me, and I much preferred sitting with the gay men anyway. I'd rather have gay friends than friends who are only friends because they're gay. You have to say: if this situation/us/this place was straight, would I be here?
That's a really good way of putting it.
I think First Out is still open, but the website seems to hint it's being redecorated. I'm up for the #1 shorts next weekend, anyway...
Creepy Lesbo
No, First Out is open and fine. Not redecorated last time I went. I'm probably
not the person to be posting this after my last post but yes, I know the
pressure to drink. I also know the consequences. There's a culture, especially
if you're northern, to drink as a lesbian, but I think any lesbian feels it.
And not just to drink, but to drink hard. It's Loaded culture for lesbians.
Beer, women, fags, fighting, football... Sums it up pretty well. Alternatives?
We need another geeky TV show with lesbian icons in really so we can organise
video evenings. There are coffee mornings held around Greenwich for lesbian
couples. But that's couples. I've seen people try to set up alternatives but
they just don;t seem to work. Lesbians pretend they are interested but it's
back down to the 'we want a shag and we want to go for a beer' basics on most
people's part, even if one or two are there legitimately.
You ever been to Southopia, Creepy? This gorgeous opera singer wanted me to go there on Sundays last year, because of needing to protect her voice, she stayed away from places that were smokey and didn't drink. She said it was a kind of 'older' feel to it, that brunch on Sundays was all about kicking back and playing board games. The way she described it sounded nice, but Kennington seemed too far away at the time, and I never went to it.
I quite liked the Glass bar, too, although I haven't been there for about three years - but it could sometimes seem cliquey as ever, and sometimes a bit too 'old'.
I've never heard of Greenwich coffee mornings. I used to be sure that having a dog would be a way to meet dykes, but I can't stand the stinky beasts.
You're right, it's not about wanting a shag, it's about wanting a social circle that isn't exclusively couples or exclusively straight. I suppose it doesn't even need to be gay if it weren't for that awful feeling that straight women my age would drop everything they ever knew in a second if the offer of babies came up.
I know I could put "Getting drunk and having meaningless sex" as a hobby, but I'm thoroughly sick of having no other way to meet gay women. It'd be nice to have somewhere a lot more chilled than a nightclub, a lot less markety and more with the having a sober conversation thing. I'd like somewhere I could go with Ellie (my straight mate) as she says she wouldn't object to going to "gay" places with me, just not the nightclubs. I'm trying to get round to going to one of the Uni's gay nights with her..
Now, a quiet gay bar, something like First Out would be really good up here - Newcastle's gay scene is very loud, very young, and very mixed. The last quiet bar where I felt happy sitting talking to the barstaff and friendly strangers closed down about two years ago - now it's all loud style bars and drinks promos and house.
Mind, the pubs I go to with my friends are quite often lesbo-tastic; they market themselves quietly as "gay friendly" and attract an alt crowd anyway. If I put a little bit of effort and confidence into myself, I could start a conversation with a lass in The Head Of Steam. The place does Women's Poetry Nights, f'fucks sake.
Course, the scene in Newcastle is a million miles from that of London.
e
Being of a slightly homebound disposition myself, I can understand what you,re
talking. If I had had to face the clasic singles scene in order to find a mate,
I can guarantee that I would still be unmarried, at home, talking to the canary
and knitting socks by now. Singles scenes are like a meat market whichever
persuasion you are. Being lesbian surely doesn't make you want to go and flaunt
your stuff any more than being straight does- which is where I have a few
problems with the term "gay scene"- I mean how does being gay make
you any more like the next gay person, and likely to get on with them, than
being, say, a teetotaller or a Freemason. Are people really so defined by their
sexuality? I suppose hanging about in a gay scene of some ilk means that you
know you are meeting people in non-threatening, accepting, congenial
surroundings. Although meat markets carry their own threats, which you have to
be feeling self-confident enough to ride.
I know that some people do meet their life partners in singles' places, but
there are plenty of other ways to meet people, thankfully for me.
Your comment made me think about what the gay scene is really there for, e.
I think the experience of growing up always being the outsider, always feeling that you can't tell the truth because your friends will do more than reject you, they'll incite people to beat you, and the cultural legitimising of hatred of gays (which existed when I grew up, and still exists, no matter how many independent readers hope that it doesn't) has more more direct influence on the gay scene than any function of finding mates.
See, I have a theory about the scene. If, like me, got picked on at seven different schools for being gay, you couldn't really help grow up feeling like there's something wrong with you. People go on the scene to relive a part of their adolescence that was denied them; the part where you 'belong' to a group, and have a strong common group identity.
Kind of: 'Hey, I'm not a loner! I have *all these friends who look like me*'.
Most gay people I know seem to have gone through a phase where they embrace the scene, then the community, and then slowly move away from it as they develop confidence in their own individualism. It seems to be a standard stage.
The thing about finding a partner on the scene - that's not the purpose of it, that's merely convenience - there aren't so many homos in the world, so your chances are raised in areas of high concentration where there's less at stake in being visibly gay. I don't think finding someone is the *purpose* of the scene, it's a side effect. The purpose is to allow you the adolescence the straight world denied you. Therefore, it's always, inevitably going to depend on cliques, uniforms, conformism. Because those are the forces that shape your teen years.
So given that the scene is never going to be a safe place for individualism. Given that numbers mean there aren't plenty of other ways to meet people, you're left with what?
The secret smurf societies, I fear.
Anyway, that's my two cents.
Opinions solicited. Seriously.
Updated: Monday, 8 March 2004 9:18 PM GMT
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