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Monday, 8 March 2004

Scenery


Topic: Belle de Jour

I'm not done with thinking about the issues raised in a previous post - the one that tried to explain why the dyke scene scares me. It's going to temporarily make the blog look a bit like a messageboard if I do this, and I'm sorry, but the guys who commented on that post got me wondering about several things, and I want your responses. (Gay or straight, if it needs saying.)

Why does what we 'identify' as have such an impact on the kinds of spaces we make available on the scene? Isn't 'gay' a broad enough genus to allow for some individualism?

Cyn
The straight dating scene sucks, but lesbian hook-ups sound almost unbearable.
It seems from what you describe, many (most?) lesbians identify themselves first as lesbians; you seem to i.d. yourself first as Vanessa and secondarly as a lesbian woman, putting you out of synch with the other women.
For the life of me I can't think of any good suggestions--probably best as I know bugger all about dating (either sex) or shagging a woman.
Do any of the gay clubs have tea parties?

Vanessa
At one point, someone in London set up a wine bar for 'professional lesbians' who disliked the meat market feel of the scene. I, Tybalt and Toulouse went along, to see who was there in its second opening week. It was very white, tiled, green ferns and piano (very Ritz). As Toulouse later said, it reminded you of a seventies film about the twenties, somehow.
Needless to say it folded as soon as their money ran out. The next lesbian club to set itself up was Candy Bar, which marketed itself as lapdancing for dykes.
Sigh.

And why the clothing rules? What's wrong with long hair, with skirts or heels? Okay, so it's covertly enforced, but you try getting a snog if you don't fit the mould in these places. What's so threatening about looking different?

lemonpillows

I soooooo know where you're coming from. Was just talking about this today with a friend. The whole thing about not being able to go out and stay sober because of the sheer amount of hassle you get - it's easier to stay in.

That said though, I *forced* myself to go out, even though I had plenty of excuses and no motivation for it. I'm starting to get used to it now. It still stinks, but I suppose it's better than nothing, and I've actually enjoyed myself a few times.. Try forcing yourself out one time.. See if you end up enjoying yourself.. You never know...

Vanessa
I always enjoy myself - I'm not shy once I'm out. It's the ordeal of working yourself up to it and wondering if it's worth it, I think.
I think.

Lemonpillows
True, true.. Finding something to wear is just so traumatic nowadays. Has all sorts of connotations - especially if you're going somewhere 'gay'. It's like the hanky rule. Whether you wear a t-shirt and jeans/shirt/blouse/trousers/skirt.

Do we even know what kind of a scene we actually want, anyway?

lemonpillows
I dream of a 'gay' place (preferrably lesbian, actually) that sells *decent* tea and coffee.. Where you can lunch, chat, smoke in a special smoking area, but be unaffected if you sit in the no-smoking section. With relaxing but very very good music. Free newspapers to read and comfy sofas to sit on.. And stays open as long as the pubs do.. And where everyone dresses how they damn-well like.
*sigh*
I maybe be waiting a long time...

Vanessa
Well, that's what First Out was always like, in my experience, but you'd have to move to London. I dunno, maybe I'll crack open a copy of The Killing of Sister George and make believe I'm in the Gateways...

Sarah
oh! First Out! That's where my london friend always takes me when we don't feel stylish enough to face the Candy Bar! I loved that place. Has it shut now or something?
even in Edinburgh, other lesbians never *really* liked me. I think I scared them, or they scared me, and I much preferred sitting with the gay men anyway. I'd rather have gay friends than friends who are only friends because they're gay. You have to say: if this situation/us/this place was straight, would I be here?

Vanessa
That's a really good way of putting it.
I think First Out is still open, but the website seems to hint it's being redecorated. I'm up for the #1 shorts next weekend, anyway...

Creepy Lesbo
No, First Out is open and fine. Not redecorated last time I went. I'm probably not the person to be posting this after my last post but yes, I know the pressure to drink. I also know the consequences. There's a culture, especially if you're northern, to drink as a lesbian, but I think any lesbian feels it. And not just to drink, but to drink hard. It's Loaded culture for lesbians. Beer, women, fags, fighting, football... Sums it up pretty well. Alternatives? We need another geeky TV show with lesbian icons in really so we can organise video evenings. There are coffee mornings held around Greenwich for lesbian couples. But that's couples. I've seen people try to set up alternatives but they just don;t seem to work. Lesbians pretend they are interested but it's back down to the 'we want a shag and we want to go for a beer' basics on most people's part, even if one or two are there legitimately.

Vanessa
You ever been to Southopia, Creepy? This gorgeous opera singer wanted me to go there on Sundays last year, because of needing to protect her voice, she stayed away from places that were smokey and didn't drink. She said it was a kind of 'older' feel to it, that brunch on Sundays was all about kicking back and playing board games. The way she described it sounded nice, but Kennington seemed too far away at the time, and I never went to it.
I quite liked the Glass bar, too, although I haven't been there for about three years - but it could sometimes seem cliquey as ever, and sometimes a bit too 'old'.
I've never heard of Greenwich coffee mornings. I used to be sure that having a dog would be a way to meet dykes, but I can't stand the stinky beasts.
You're right, it's not about wanting a shag, it's about wanting a social circle that isn't exclusively couples or exclusively straight. I suppose it doesn't even need to be gay if it weren't for that awful feeling that straight women my age would drop everything they ever knew in a second if the offer of babies came up.

Sarah
I know I could put "Getting drunk and having meaningless sex" as a hobby, but I'm thoroughly sick of having no other way to meet gay women. It'd be nice to have somewhere a lot more chilled than a nightclub, a lot less markety and more with the having a sober conversation thing. I'd like somewhere I could go with Ellie (my straight mate) as she says she wouldn't object to going to "gay" places with me, just not the nightclubs. I'm trying to get round to going to one of the Uni's gay nights with her..
Now, a quiet gay bar, something like First Out would be really good up here - Newcastle's gay scene is very loud, very young, and very mixed. The last quiet bar where I felt happy sitting talking to the barstaff and friendly strangers closed down about two years ago - now it's all loud style bars and drinks promos and house.
Mind, the pubs I go to with my friends are quite often lesbo-tastic; they market themselves quietly as "gay friendly" and attract an alt crowd anyway. If I put a little bit of effort and confidence into myself, I could start a conversation with a lass in The Head Of Steam. The place does Women's Poetry Nights, f'fucks sake.
Course, the scene in Newcastle is a million miles from that of London.

Is it that different from any straight singles scene? Why - this is years down the line - why isn't there any more choice?

e
Being of a slightly homebound disposition myself, I can understand what you,re talking. If I had had to face the clasic singles scene in order to find a mate, I can guarantee that I would still be unmarried, at home, talking to the canary and knitting socks by now. Singles scenes are like a meat market whichever persuasion you are. Being lesbian surely doesn't make you want to go and flaunt your stuff any more than being straight does- which is where I have a few problems with the term "gay scene"- I mean how does being gay make you any more like the next gay person, and likely to get on with them, than being, say, a teetotaller or a Freemason. Are people really so defined by their sexuality? I suppose hanging about in a gay scene of some ilk means that you know you are meeting people in non-threatening, accepting, congenial surroundings. Although meat markets carry their own threats, which you have to be feeling self-confident enough to ride.
I know that some people do meet their life partners in singles' places, but there are plenty of other ways to meet people, thankfully for me.

Vanessa
Your comment made me think about what the gay scene is really there for, e.
I think the experience of growing up always being the outsider, always feeling that you can't tell the truth because your friends will do more than reject you, they'll incite people to beat you, and the cultural legitimising of hatred of gays (which existed when I grew up, and still exists, no matter how many independent readers hope that it doesn't) has more more direct influence on the gay scene than any function of finding mates.
See, I have a theory about the scene. If, like me, got picked on at seven different schools for being gay, you couldn't really help grow up feeling like there's something wrong with you. People go on the scene to relive a part of their adolescence that was denied them; the part where you 'belong' to a group, and have a strong common group identity.
Kind of: 'Hey, I'm not a loner! I have *all these friends who look like me*'.
Most gay people I know seem to have gone through a phase where they embrace the scene, then the community, and then slowly move away from it as they develop confidence in their own individualism. It seems to be a standard stage.
The thing about finding a partner on the scene - that's not the purpose of it, that's merely convenience - there aren't so many homos in the world, so your chances are raised in areas of high concentration where there's less at stake in being visibly gay. I don't think finding someone is the *purpose* of the scene, it's a side effect. The purpose is to allow you the adolescence the straight world denied you. Therefore, it's always, inevitably going to depend on cliques, uniforms, conformism. Because those are the forces that shape your teen years.
So given that the scene is never going to be a safe place for individualism. Given that numbers mean there aren't plenty of other ways to meet people, you're left with what?
The secret smurf societies, I fear.
Anyway, that's my two cents.

Opinions solicited. Seriously.

This page graced by sarsparilla at 8:57 PM GMT
Updated: Monday, 8 March 2004 9:18 PM GMT
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Monday, 8 March 2004 - 9:42 PM GMT

Name: The Rev
Home Page: http://friendlystranger.servebeer.com/blog

When I was in college the vast majority of my female friends were lesbians (70% or so) and now that I'm out of school that figure is closer to 90% - which, now that I think about it, may help explain why I haven't had a date in a long time...
Anyhow, the majority of the lesbians that I hang out with don't really frequent "gay" clubs. It's more like they hang out at the neighborhood bars that are convenient and don't, for the most part, buy into a "gay culture." Ok, sure, while we were in school there was the weekly pilgrimage to Mythos to see the Drag Queen Show, but that was more for laughs and drinking than for anything else.
As for the pressure to drink, I couldn't speak to that. The majority of my group of friends are dedicated to random nights of extreme alcoholic joy and marijuana-induced hilarity. I wouldn't call us "party-kids" in the sense that there's a lot of rave attendance (ye gods, I don't think I could spend time with them if that was the case) but when we party... well, we don't do it half-assed.
My one or two experiences with "lesbian bars" happened when I lived in Charlotte, NC. I went to this bar with a friend from the coffee shop I haunted and if I had gone in there by myself I would have been thoroughly beaten before being tossed on my ass. I wouldn't say it was a hostile place, but I was only tolerated because I was with her, but then what was I to expect. I don't wear a sign that says, "I'm not a guy who thinks that one good deep-dicking will make you straight," so hostility, glares, and a few muttered comments along the lines of "fucking breeder" would be the norm.
I have to say, though, that I'm the kind of person that's not too keen on straight bars, gay bars, and lesbian bars. I just don't understand why people would want to limit their social contact to just one particular group. Seems like it really shrinks one's horizons or is a symptom of an issue involving self-identity and the constant need for affirmation about one's lifestyle.

Monday, 8 March 2004 - 9:44 PM GMT

Name: e

I think that most of your reply are what I feel too, that gay people are discriminated against, and that bunching together is one (good) way of dealing with that. I totally get your point about lack of belonging during teenage, but would you be the deeply thinking person you are today without the enforced teenage angst? (said half tongue in cheek) I say this as a total non-belonger myself- I'm not entirely convinced that I missed much by not being into fashion, romance or pop music. Oh dear, how can I put this kindly to myself? I can't, so I'll just say it straight out- I was a geek, and a lonely one at that, but I'm not sure I really regret that aspect of my teens.

If you're starting a smurf society, can I join please?

Monday, 8 March 2004 - 10:03 PM GMT

Name: Vanessa

Yep, yep, and yep.

Bizarrely, I just clicked on here from reading a discussion about sociological interpretations of schizophrenia on a lesbian messageboard, and this quote came up:
from J. H. van den Berg:

"We are not ourselves, actually there is nothing we can call a 'self' anymore; we are manifold, we have as many selves as there are groups to which we belong. The neurotic has overtly a disease from which everybody is suffering."

Seems to fit your last point ferpectly.

Monday, 8 March 2004 - 10:06 PM GMT

Name: Vanessa

Yeah, this is one of the problems with the coming-out hysteria I have - it allows you to pretend your case is distinct and highly individual, when it isn't. As Radmila was posting on Saturday:
"Do you know anyone who hasn?t had hardship in their lives?
A fucked up childhood?
Trials and tribulations?
I don?t."

But I'm very much into the weekend naked smurf society.

Monday, 8 March 2004 - 10:55 PM GMT

Name: lemonpillows
Home Page: http://www.lemonpillows.com

I don't particularly like the 'gay scene'. Yes, sometimes, when I've had a hard day of being snubbed, ignored, or downright insulted for not fancying men, I want to go somewhere where I don't have to pretend. Where I can be comfortable just saying the word 'lesbian' without getting horrible stares from white middle-class insulated bigots. But then, the 'scene' itself is full of cliques and divisions. You're either femme or butch, baby-dyke, alex-parks-lookalike or some such category. If you're bi, you don't belong. If you're not drinking, you're a freak. If I go out wearing jeans and a shirt, it immediately puts me into certain categories in the minds of others. If I went out in a skirt, I would be labelled as 'femme', etc etc.

I would *really* like somewhere I could just go have tea and coffee, or alcohol when I wanted it, sit with friends (gay or straight) and just be *me*. Somewhere mixed. I don't really need anywhere to be exclusively gay for me to enjoy myself. I'd prefer somewhere mixed and relaxed.

And yes, I had all of those teenage angsts too, but many weren't because of my sexuality, as I didn't come out until much later. Those same things *still* exclude me from much of the scene, and from having close friendships with many people.. Mainly because they either don't *believe* my story, or they think I need constant sympathy.

The scene stinks, basically, but in the absence of any other place to meet other lesbians, it's all there is. I'm willing to stick with it for a while, because out of the thousands of bitchy back-stabbers, there might be one person I can get along with....

Monday, 8 March 2004 - 11:32 PM GMT

Name: Niki
Home Page: http://www.upsaid.com/missuhgolightly

As a hetero, I gotta say that in terms of "meat-market" types, gay/straight doesn't make much of a difference. There are places I'd love to go where I didn't feel like I was being ogled or could simply enjoy some quality hang out time with friends without having a sloshed guy insist on interrupting to hit on one or all of us. Then, of course, if we decline, we're called names, "bitch" being the least offensive.

But then again, I'm very open to learning more about "gay culture," having a bevy of homosexuals that I frequent the clubs with. While I've been to several gay bars, only one was lesbian-specific and even then, the night I went was "Guy Night." That bar has since closed; I'm not even sure there is a lesbian bar in the city of Chicago. I don't know how my friends do it - I guess it's because they're already coupled off in long-term relationships (marriages if the damn government wouldn't be so Puritan about itself).
I don't really have a point here, but just wanted to say that I sympathize with both the meat-market dilemma and the problem of not having a solid, enjoyable place for lesbians. Take it for what it's worth.

Monday, 8 March 2004 - 11:58 PM GMT

Name: Vanessa

Welcome back online, Niki! Good to read you.

I think the meat market idea exists differently in lesbian and straight worlds. Let me give you an idea.
A woman goes to a straight pub, has problems because she's bothered by straight men.
A lesbian goes to a lesbian bar, she's not going to be bothered by people. Lesbians don't do the 'hitting on' people thing - particularly not the outgoing lesbians. A lesbian goes to a lesbian bar, she sits alone. All night. She isn't part of the group of thirty or so in-crowd who frequent that bar. The way to get into the in-crowd is to sleep with one of the in-crowd. You don't want to sleep with them? You'll never be 'in'. Okay, so you may not want to be 'in' - but do you ever want to have sex again? Well, you have to speak to other lesbians to do that, surely?
Okay, if you're disgruntled at the difficulty of breaking into the 'clique', add onto that that the clique isn't very attractive to you anyway. But it's the only clique in town. Repeat: do you ever want sex again? Final insult: It's not homophobes doing this to you, it's other lesbians.

It's way more adolescent than the (simplified) straight dilemma above (which, of course, most lesbians also get presented with.)

Tuesday, 9 March 2004 - 4:18 AM GMT

Name: Niki
Home Page: http://www.upsaid.com/missuhgolightly

Ah! I see how it is. Damn. You girls have it tough!

Tuesday, 9 March 2004 - 5:16 PM GMT

Name: Pan
Home Page: http://panachetta.blogspot.com

Hmmm - I guess part of the problem is that if you're straight you can meet people anywhere (at least in theory) whereas if you're gay it isn't quite so straightforward - hence the rise in the first place of the 'gay' bar - ie somewhere you can be sure there will be other gay people and you won't be discriminated again.

I suppose this inevitably leads to the immediate association of an evening out and trying to pull / be pulled. If everyewhere was gay friendly there wouldn't be that pressure. The only time I went to the Candy Bar (long story) I was completely invisible because every woman there was lasering around the bar looking for attractive prospects (or maybe it just seemed that way to me ;-)
) and where there is pulling there is alcohol in abundance.

I guess what I'm sort of saying is that as long as places are 'gay' and pretty uncommon they are inevitably going to be about pulling & drinking to some extent - it's the inevitable reuslt of emphasising sexuality over any other attribute (ie gastropub / non-smoking / no music / whatever). The problem then of course would be the difficulty in maintaining a 'scene' if people were 'free' to go wherever they wanted regardless of sexuality.

I'm not sure I expressed that very well but hopefully you can get my gist - the neccessity for a 'scene' in order to feel comfortable and meet partners enforces meatmarket like behaviour which in turn enforces heavy drinking. Or something like that. Don't know what the solution is though . . .

Tuesday, 9 March 2004 - 7:24 PM GMT

Name: Nursie
Home Page: http://muddyblog.typepad.com

I've said this before but it bears saying again. I don't go in for "cliques". For groups where one type of people excludes another type. Maybe its because of who (and what) I am but I dealt with cliques all through school, hated them and resolved to never deal with them again. I've noticed that the lesbian "scene" in general isn't very fond of (Bi) people like me, as they see us as somehow "poseurs" or "pretenders" or god knows what-the-fuck-all. That's fine. It's pretty damn ironic, considering, but it's fine. I'm too old to be hanging out at bars anyway. I've reached my shelf life, as they say. Plus, I'm an introvert, and any sort of group function tires me out after a while. So I hang with freinds or with family and hope that special someone catches my eye. Or not...

Tuesday, 9 March 2004 - 9:55 PM GMT

Name: Kat
Home Page: http://www.mostlyfluff.blogspot.com

Gay should be a broad enough genus to allow for individuality.

As far as the clothing goes: there are a couple of bars here that don't allow high-heeled shoes. They're trying to keep the bisexual riff-raff out, donchaknow. Aside from being used for a purpose like that I don't know why the clothing should matter one bit.

None of that really helps or answers your questions but surely there are other women in your area who feel like you do. There must be other women who don't care for the cliques or the bar scene or the clothing "rules" (how silly, really) or doing any and everything as "community". There must be. What you're asking is not over-the-top or odd ball. There has to be others who feel the same. The question is where the heck are they?

Wednesday, 10 March 2004 - 12:08 PM GMT

Name: Creepy Lesbo
Home Page: http://creepylesbo.blogspot.com

No, I haven't been to Southopia - I tend to go to the one around the corner from it - the Little Apple - more of a country pub feel and they've always been very friendly in there when I've been there on my own. I went to the Glass Bar once and I just HATE having to 'sign in' and being pressured to put my name and address down! WTF?? Private members clubs suck. To me it didn't seem any different to any other lesbian bar - full of cliques. The only thing that makes any bar a good bar is the people you go with. I had a wonderful time at the GAY bar (ground floor - I didn't go to the 'lesbian' section) and that's because gay men were chatting to me and I ended up just having a laugh and stuff kept happening. I used to go to the small country gay pubs. I like the feelings of having a 'local' and being able to chat to the staff and them know what you have etc. I haven't had that since uni though. I like the smaller ones - I keep meaning to check out the Lewisham ones because they have cabaret and like that friendliness. First Out was always HORRIBLE for me - full of cliques again and women who won't speak to you. I prefer mixed joints where people are just getting drunk and having fun and not caring because they don't EXPECT to pull. That's the problem with the Candy Bars/Glass Bars - people go there on the prowl, not to have fun. I'm happpy to go to straight bars but I wouldn't want to snog my girlfriend in one because there's always some asshole who takes offence and feels, because it's two women he has a RIGHT to tell you so. I think gay bars are safe. I understand why some women want a women-only space and want exclusively gay places. I hate the fact straights are welcome willynilly into some gay venues without gay people on their arms - even when it comes to my brother because it's the whole Queer As Folk thing of them doing it 'for a laugh' and it irks me. I don't want to be treated like a zoo - I want to go out and have fun whereever I go and if people are staring or hassling then I stop enjoying myself. It does make me realise what an uptight bnch most lesbians are though - on Friday I was smiling like a loon and congoing around the bar and the LOOKS I was getting were unbelievable. These people need to have more fun and care less about how stupid they might look while doing so.
This makes me realise why I stopped sceneing it - because it just stopped being fun and about friends and it started being about 'cliques' and trendy people and sex or drugs and attitude.

Wednesday, 10 March 2004 - 12:12 PM GMT

Name: Creepy Lesbo
Home Page: http://creepylesbo.blogspot.com

Yeah, the problem the bigger more well-known bars have is the 'married women' or 'mostly straight' girls who go. But then again, gardargirls is full of them. Why not take their money? It's up to you to find out if a girl is taken already or what she's into - I think it's being a bit over-protective to exclude. I've never pulled a girl I didn't know in a bar. I've never found it a good environment to get to know anyone - loud music, too many friends around, alcohol making people sloppy etc. I'd much rather meet people through hobbies, work etc.

Wednesday, 10 March 2004 - 2:41 PM GMT

Name: sarah

I've been thinking about this loads. My main thing about gay bars is that it is somewhere I can go, as a lass, on my own, and start cracking with gay men. That is the best bit about gay bars - Hi, I'm a lesbian, I don't want to pull you; you're a gayman, you don't want to pull me. Pulling is not involved here, and there's no question about it, no atmosphere hanging over the conversation. I've had nothing but filthy suspicious looks from lasses when I've tried to start up a conversation in a gay bar.

When I was on my own here, and when I've been to cities on my own, it's always the mixed gay bars I go for.

Other than that? the gay scene really doesn't hold that much attraction. I liked what you and e were saying, that coming out is like a second adolescence; I remember thinking something along those lines when I was up in Edinburgh. Very true.

Wednesday, 10 March 2004 - 7:11 PM GMT

Name: ysengrin
Home Page: http://www.ysengrin.blogspot.co.uk

The London lesbian scene - came out, sampled it, got sick of it, all in one year or so. Now I sometimes go to First out, which is the closest thing to civilisation, the waiting staff are nice, the food is decent; but no matter what I find myself worrying about what I look like when I go in; I admit that there are some things I wouldn't want to be wearing in there, because people will look you up and down and check you out. Right hair cut, right trainers - if you've got them you're cool, if not, tough. Not so friendly, huh. I don't even wear trainers! My girlfriend lives in san francisco and is regularly impressed by the fashion-conscious dykes over here. True in SF they seem to have no sense of style - but they have much cooler places to go to and hang out, people actually talk to you, and ALL the coffee houses are gay-friendly.
A case of the grass being greener, no doubt..

Thursday, 11 March 2004 - 1:11 AM GMT

Name: Swift
Home Page: http://www.swiftatwintersedge.blogspot.com

Okay, you'll probably not see this post Van, and you'll probably not reply to it if you do see it, but let me get one thing straight (pun definitely intended): Lesbians have a dress code? What the holy blue flying @#%$!!? They can't have long hair? They can't wear the clothes that they want? And who the hell enforces this dress code? The Lesbian Brotherhood? I mean, seriously, I'm a straight white male living in America, one of a dying breed, the last true minority. I consider myself well adjusted, but even /we/ don't have a dresscode, and we're the original perpetrators of all evil known to Man if you listen to the leftist and the media. So who developed the lesbian code of dress and who makes it stick? And why should anyone give much of a @#%$! anyways about what you're wearing?

And yes I ask this in all seriousness.

Swift

Thursday, 11 March 2004 - 7:31 AM GMT

Name: Vanessa

Straight (dunno about white, seems to be all shades) men over here have the most repressive dress code I've ever seen. You're not allowed to wear anything colourful (the only colours are olive green, navy blue and grey, right?), you're not allowed to wear anything that calls attention to yourself, and you're not allowed to wear anything less than macho. Perhaps it's different in the states, I've only visited once, and then only NY and MA - but it seemed even stricter over there. I could tell a European at 300 feet, because he/she was moving their arms and body in a more animatedly feminine manner as they spoke. So, yeah, dress codes - they're unspoken, you see?

The way any dress code is enforced, anywhere is by withholding privileges to the nonconformists. If you knew full well that wearing jeans meant you would ever get a shag again, but wearing dirndl skirts meant you wouldn't - I dunno, would you adhere to it?

Pisses me off though, I like my nice pink suit, red coat and red high heels.

Thursday, 11 March 2004 - 8:53 PM GMT

Name: sarah

I'm not still convinced about the dress code thing. Is it because the scenes I've regularly frequented - Newcastle, Edinburgh, Glasgow - are much smaller than London? Newcastle in particular I noticed more women were "femme" than in Edinburgh or Glasgow, but in all three I've never felt sneers because of how I was dressed, and talking to other dykes, I've never heard anyone mention this.

am I really oblivious to something here?

Friday, 12 March 2004 - 7:13 AM GMT

Name: Cyn
Home Page: http://cyncity.typepad.com

I feel truly unqualifed to offer much in the way of opinion. Just one notion popped into my head in re: the notion of expected shagging in certain (most?)gay bars.
It seems that the very worst in stereotypical male behaviour is being conducted by lesbians in these situations--this "automatically expecting to get laid thing."
Why on earth would lesbians want to behave this way?
No matter which sex or sexual preference, this attitude seems pretty Neanderthal-like.

Friday, 12 March 2004 - 7:16 PM GMT

Name: Vanessa

God DAMM I T

I just posted a really long answer, then my connecction disappeared.

Aaargh.

I ent posting that agin!

Friday, 12 March 2004 - 7:20 PM GMT

Name: Vanessa

Most women's sexual technique is passive. By definition, if everybody is passive, then nodoby on the lesbian scene gets any - sex, love, companionship, anything.

I think most women expect *not* to get laid, if anything.

So, a certain amount of chutzpah is required anyway. Just one of the funcitons is sex. I dunno, it seems important to me that I ever sleep with someone again. I don't want it all dried up and dusty. :-)

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