I.K. GUJRAL - Prime Minister of India
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I.K. GUJRAL - Prime Minister of India

MEETING A REMARKABLE MAN

SHRI I.K. GUJRAL

A painting of a rustic villager in a Gandhi cap arrests your attention as you enter the room where Inder Kumar Gujral sits. However Unlike the man in the painting ,Gujral is urbane, suave and looks every inch the thinker politician he is projected to be. We spoke to him at length about the challenges in front of India in the 50th year of her independence. Gujral answered them with characteristic honesty.

Q Sir, how would you evaluate India’s progress in the past 50 years?

A If we are talking about the economic progress we should start right from independence. In 1947, when we had gained independence we were nowhere economically. We didn’t have any infrastructure, nor did we have many industries. In fact I remember, we even used to import small things like safety pins and needles. We had to start from scratch. And today we are at a stage where not only have we achieved self reliance in many sectors , we can even export our industrial surplus. This I think is a big complement to the economic policies of this country. Some people think that the country’s economic policies are a result of the past 3-4 years This is not quite true. The country’s economic policy has been shaped over the past 50 years .It includes Jawahar lal Nehru’s vision and all those commitments which our leaders had made to the people. I am quite satisfied with what we have achieved but this is no time to rest. The journey has just begun , we still have miles to cover.

Q Sir, Jawahar lal Nehru had said once that whatever funds we allocate, whatever policies we formulate for the welfare of the common man, never reach him. Several other leaders too have acknowledged this fact. Do you find any truth in this allegation?

A I personally feel that policies are formulated taking into account the circumstances and circumstances keep on changing. We did fail to some extent in the implementation of policies, but the failure occurred not due to the inadequacies in the policies themselves but due to adverse circumstances and a paucity of resources. You see there are two ways of looking at everything, you can call a glass half full or half empty depending on your point of view. The same goes for economic policies.

Q. There is a general feeling prevalent among people that they haven’t got what they deserve. Do you agree with this?

A. Yes and no! See, there are two ways of looking at this. It is a fact that today India provides one of the largest markets in the world for white goods and other consumer products. This is the reason why every car in the world is being made here and every big industrialist of the world wants to invest in India. This prosperity is the result of our economic policies in the last 50 years. At the same time it is also true that there are a large number of people in this country who have to go without proper food, housing and shelter. This is a serious problem and a cause of worry, not just for me but for everybody. We need to eradicate poverty, and should see to it that the common man gets his due.

Q. Sir, How would you define the common man?

A. Well, there can be many such definitions. Anybody can call himself/herself common man or woman. Even a well off person calls himself a common man and so does a poor person from some obscure backward village! But the way I see it, the person who stays in a village or a person who cannot manage to eat a full meal even after working for more than 12 hours everyday, is a common man.

Q Do you think that the common man is intelligent, Does he understand what is going on in this country. ?

A Yes, Infact it is the greatest achievement of this country, that the common man is very active, politically. He knows what is good for him and his country and he knows the value of his vote.

Q Please comment on the education policy of the country in the past fifty years.

A In the past 50 years, what ever education policies we have formulated, have laid undue stress on higher education. We have become hugely successful in churning out Doctors and Engineers, Infact we have the third largest population in the world of trained doctors and engineers. But we have woefully neglected primary education and basic literacy program. Even the standard of education, in most schools is very low . No nation can progress when 60% to 70% of the population is illiterate. There is a saying which goes" give me a nation which is 100% literate and is backward and give me a nation which is 100% illiterate and is advanced" .

This Nation can progress only when we eradicate illiteracy because illiteracy and backwardness always go hand in hand. When we talk of education I have to make a special mention of women’s education. The literacy rate is even lower for women in this country and when half the population of any country remains illiterate how can the country be expected to progress? What progress are we talking about ,When 15 to 20% of the population aim’s for the sky’s leaving the rest of the people stranded on earth?

Q. What do you think of our growth levels and Economic Progress ?

A. We have made a lot of progress, but it is being neutralised by unprecedented population growth. In 1947 we had a population of just 32 crores and today we are almost 100 crores. Coupled with population explosion the other problem we have is of illiteracy, as I mentioned earlier. An illiterate person is a liability for the country and not an asset. Only an educated person can be an asset. Because he alone can give back something who has got something in the first place.

Q. How would you define a country like India?

A. The definition of a country like India defies all standard definitions, because for one thing, our size is huge, secondly we are a pluralistic nation, which takes pride in its diversity. This diversity is manifested in different things, in the cloths we wear, in the languages we speak, in our religions, casts and communities. This diversity is our strength as well as our weakness. It is our strength, because people realised that our unity lies in our diversity, you may term it as secularism or diversity, but it is a great achievement of the Indian Nation. Unfortunately a lot of people are now trying to disturb the nation, caught up with misguided notions of unity. They feel that unity means uniformity, meaning we should speak the same kind of language, follow the same religion, were the same kind of clothing…….. This is very wrong, because we are not a small country like the European Countries, we don’t even share a common history. Punjab has a different history then Nagaland, and vice versa. To run a country like this for fifty years and to hold it together is no mean achievement. Also this diversity is evident also as an offshoot of unequal Economic development. People from developed states like Punjab have a different way of thinking than people in states like Bihar and M.P which are backward. Economic Backwardness often results in the backwardness of thought, and lack of foresight. Infact the greatest weakness of our development pattern is that it has been very uneven, resulting in regional disparity. Some states have progressed more than the other states. And even in these developed states, some districts and pockets have forged ahead, leaving other districts behind. This has led to an unequal distribution of resources. The greatest challenge in front of us for the next fifty years will be how to ensure an equal development in all the parts of the country.

Even the British, when they developed cities and regions, developed it along the railway lines. In certain areas of India, like Kashmir or North- East, the railway does not exist . This is the reason why these areas continue to lag behind in terms of economic and industrial development. Even after independence our economic geography has not changed much, metro cities like Delhi, Calcutta, Mumbai and Chennai forged ahead, but other mofussil areas continued to be under developed. We have to change this lopsided pattern.

Q Sir, All Political Parties have given a lot of slogans like Garibi Hatao, Corruption Hatao, but the common man still finds himself out in the street, without a brand name, please comment.

A You see political parties do not descend from the heavens, they are born out of people. Political parties reflect the character of the people, they claim to represent. In today’s world where we no longer have people of the stature of Gandhi, and Nehru, it is very difficult to find political parties which are singularly unselfish. This is the era of the Common Man where one brother does farming, second enters politics , the third works in an office and the forth becomes a teacher. Politics has become a profession like any other. Obviously every party will reflect the weaknesses of the people who form the core of its membership. The real problem lies not with political parties, the real problem is that we have not implemented democracy properly in this country. We have a very simple and convenient definition of democracy, that is as long as there are elections we call it democracy. We have limited democracy to voting. Democracy will come to India only when there is complete decentralisation. When every village has its own panchayat which takes all the decisions concerning that village. Unfortunately this is one area which we have completely neglected. The result has been that whatever planing, whatever policies we have formulated have remained in Delhi or in the state capital and not reached the people. The people have become disillusioned about our plans. However things are changing now. The constitution has been amended to include the panjayati raj. If we really and honestly work towards implementing its provisions, people will have regain their faith in political parties. Only that political party can be successful, which has its base among the people. It does not mean the number of elected representatives. An elected representative in distant Delhi cannot be of much use for solving the day to day problems of his electorate in say Manipur. He can influence major policy decisions , yes but not day to day problems. This alienation between the elected representative and his/her electorate will continue to grow if we don’t give more autonomy to the village institutions.

Q What do you feel about the recent trend of moral/ethical degeneration ?

A There are two ways of looking at it. I feel that the moral fibre has weakened most , in that strata of the society, which have got the maximum opportunities. How can a poor man be morally degenerate when for him every day is a struggle for survival. He does not have any opportunity to be corrupt. Only those people are corrupt who have the means to do so. To control corruption we have to first create an environment where no industrialist dares to sell goods in black, or no politician dares take a bribe. Unfortunately I don’t see this happen and I am very sad to say that people who have got everything are the ones most lacking in morality or ethics.

Q Bureaucrat say, that the system has been rendered corrupt by politicians. Do you agree to this.

A There may be a certain amount of truth in this allegation, but the common man of whom we have been talking about all along does not deal with politicians in the course of his day to day life. He deals with the police, the district officials, the electricity inspector, and they are not politicians. It’s not as if I am blaming them, but it is a fact, that all such routine transactions between the people and the petty government officials are increasingly being laced with bribery, and we have failed to control it. There is a reason for this, people have began to feel that everyone in India is corrupt, whether he be a top politician, a top bureaucrat or a top industrialist. This leads to a moral justification of the act of corruption. "If a minister can take a bribe, why can’t I?’

Q Do you feel that the Nationalistic feeling is on the decline.

A No ! I don’t feel so. One’s patriotism is tried most during a critical situation . Nobody starts his day with a patriotic song, but in times of crisis our country is always united .We are definitely not lacking in any nationalistic feeling. Whatever wars India has seen have proved that the country reacts as one during the time of crises. That’s why I feel that in the last 50 years despite all the problems, we are still united.

Q Please comment on the Foreign Policy of last 50 years of India.

A A foreign policy is not printed in any book, nor does it descend from heavens. It is formulated taking into account the circumstances. During Nehru era the world was divided into two camps, and the cold war was on. Hence we needed to form a policy which stated that we did not belong to any camp, we were non aligned. This policy was formed, because at that time our National interest was best served that way. Even today safe guarding of one’s national interest is the basic premise of any foreign Policy. National interest not only for today, but also in the future. In the formulation of the National Foreign Policy two things are taken care of. First is the nation’s security. We need to have an idea of how safe our country is from outside attacks and who are our friends and enemies today and who might be our friends and enemies in the next 10 years, because nothing is certain. Today’s friends can be tomorrow enemies and vice versa. We should know where our interests lie. We have been fortunate in the fact that though we have many political parties in India, there is not much of a difference of opinion over the foreign policy. Infact there is more or less a consensus. But in the recent years, the world political scenario has changed drastically, after the end of the cold war. After the cold war one super power, namely Russia collapsed.. It was a challenge in front of us to adapt to the changed equations. We could do it only because we have always maintained, stability, continuity and consensus in India’s foreign policy.

Q There is a line of thought which says that India started deteriorating after Shastri. Nothing went right after that?

A It is a sweeping generalisation to say that what ever happened went wrong. Some things went wrong, but Something went right too. If you ask me about the foreign policy, the greatest challenge came in 1990, when the cold war ended suddenly. We had to contend with the fact, that the soviet union which was our great friend is no more. We had to establish new relationships, with new nations. Now relationships do not happen overnight, nor are they sudden love affairs. If you have to watch your interests, the country with whom you are supposed to develop close ties has to safeguard its own interests. The key point is to coincide both the interests and find some common ground. This is the real challenge and we have succeeded in doing it. In the past 50 years we have established basic industries, our defence forces are so strong that we have won three wars, this is a great compliment to our foreign policy.

Q What do you think will be the key development issues for India in the coming fifty years ?

A The country should take care of three things. First , we should democratise our development process. This does not mean just voting , it means we should be equal partners in the country’s decision making. Accordingly we should formulate our policies. We should make arrangements for the development of people staying in villages thousand of miles from Delhi. Secondly, we should make provisions for the development of tribals and the scheduled castes. These two sections of the society have always been marginalised, treated unfairly. It is time we gave them their rightful place in the mainstream, not only through reservations , but through active participation in the country’s governance. Progress of a community does not depend on how many ministers come from that community but how many people from the community get jobs in the police, in the collectorate, in Industries etc. Because these are the places where policies are made and implemented.

The third great challenge is to encourage more and more women to enter public life. Gandhiji had always said that women should progress in order for the country to progress. More and More women should enter politics, they should be entrusted with public offices. It is a disturbing trend that percentage wise representation of women in State Assembly and the Parliament has been falling over the years. There should also be a change in our social thinking. Even today, a birth of a girl is not welcomed in many Indian families because a girl is considered a burden, a liability for the family. This line of thought should be changed.

Another area we should pay attention to is how to strike a right balance between a traditional way of life and modern, rational way of thinking. By modern way of thinking I mean scientific temper. We can only progress, when we take to science and technology in a big way, start new industries. For this we need to change our whole way of thinking. This is the responsibility of schools. Schools should encourage scientific temper. A child should realise that when you switch on a light bulb, it is electricity at work and not God Almighty performing a miracle. The Child should be encouraged to ask questions like Why ,What, and How. Lord Buddha had said 3000 years ago, ‘don’t believe me because I say so, don’t believe anything just because it is written in a book…, this is the kind of thought we should adopt. Only then will the country progress. V.S. Naipaul had said in one of his books " it is not a big thing to drive a car, nor is it a big thing to repair a car, what is important is to invent a car, to produce new technology". Today we have reached a state of ‘know how’, now we should concentrate on reaching a state of ‘ know why’, and we are moving in that direction. We have done commendable work in space research, in satellite communication, in Missile technology. We have the knowledge, the technical expertise, now the challenge before us is that we should use this knowledge for the betterment of the common man.

Q Should we form a policy against corruption ?

A Corruption cannot be eradicated by forming policies. You can get rid of corruption by two ways. By imparting strict punishment to people who are caught indulging into corrupt practices and by creating an environment where you don’t need to be corrupt to fulfil your needs . The recent havala scandal for example has proved that one needs money for fighting elections. Now how do you source this money? You may have a ceiling on election expenses but the point is from where do you get the money? . Unless a legal way is provided for getting the money, people will indulge into corrupt practices. That is why I advocate state allocation of funds for elections. Parties should be forced to maintain detailed accounts of every rupee spent and defaulters should be strictly punished. Electoral reforms are needed very badly. During V.P. Singh’s tenure a bill was presented in the Parliament proposing widespread electoral reforms. Unfortunately it has been languishing in the Parliament for the past 5 years.

Q What do you feel about the influence of Foreign Culture on Indian Society.

A A Nation’s culture is affected only when the nation’s media, does not have its own well formulated cultural policy. Today India is experiencing the satellite boom. All sorts of channels are beaming their programs here.. Unfortunately our own investment in Television is in terms of hardware. We have neglected software. Our programs lack quality software, result is that 80 to 90% of our television program are film based. I had stated in 1970 in the UNESCO, that the third world countries should use their funds in the development of quality television software. Unfortunately I do not see this happening. Today you read in the news papers about the proliferation of channels, but nobody is talking about the content of these channels. Secondly its time we changed our definition of culture. Culture does not mean, merely allegiance to one’s past, it means what dominates our thoughts today, what kind of Music do we listen to, what kind of films we make, what kind of poetry we write. All these are the fundamental of culture and we should encourage them. This can only be done by investing money .

Q Should we have separate Channels devoted to education?

A Yes. Education channels are found in all the developed countries of the world, they are specially relevlant for a country like India, where a lot of people can not attend school, even if they want to. There are some people who want to study while they work. An educational channel is necessary for such people. There should be educational channels at different levels. Channels for primary education, separate channels for higher education, specialised channels like university channels, agricultural channels, technical channels. Every major education instution should have its own channel. That does not mean we should privatise channels, but institutionalise them. We have to invest in education to ensure a bright future for this country.

An Interview qwith Shri I.K. Gujral - Febubary 1996

Interviewed by Yati Jindal

Written by Shafali Vaidya Visit Sites

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