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So credit goes to the above people. Please note that I am not plaigarising these people's ideas. None of this is copy-pasted, except some parts from my own theories. It's only the general ideas that I got from them, and wrote out on my own.
The main objective of this post is not to push for the Taimandred case; in fact I'm quite proud of all the objections I found for it. I'm trying to make the general reader more aware of the more subtle points, as well as to list every point that has ever been made (as well as a few I don't think have been!). We start with the affirmative case, then the negative. The argument isn't a continuous one, but is broken up into lots of subpoints, so if you get bored you can easily read chunks at a time. Apologies for some of the subheadings - I was influenced by Wotchick's post a bit too much. You can now jump straight to The Affirmative Case , or pick a specific point below:
For the Affirmative:
1) Bashere's reaction, Taim's Beard | 2) Taim's fearlessness | 3) The half-smiles | 4) Dominating stance | 5) The Forsaken's gamble | 6) Reaction to Forsaken | 7) Comparing (6) with Dashan'gar | 8) So-called Aiel | 9) Reaction to cleansing saidin | 10) Comparing (9) with Dashan'gar | 11) Watching Rand | 12) Magic clothes | 13) The grey man | 14) Brain explosion | 15) Slowing and the Taint | 16) RJ subtle hints
For the Negative:
1) Demandred hates Lews Therin | 2) Demandred in the south | 3) 2 Forsaken together | 4) Separate orders to Rochaid and Kisman | 5) No recognition of Flinn | 6) The old man couldn't channel
Book 6, "A New Arrival"Taim claims he shaved his beard because it is too hot. Why would he bother to do that when hedoesn't even feel the heat, because of the concentration trick? It doesn't work well with Taim. For Demandred, however, there is some justification. He would have to use the Mirror of Mists to disguise himself as accurately as possible. If he added a fake beard with Illusion, it would be immediately detected at a touch. Sure, it's not likely that people will touch his beard, but it's a big risk to take. Anything could do it... especially when he is eating. He would definitely want to pretend he had shaved - he even has a reason prepared.
Bashere took advantage of the silence. "You say you're Mazrim Taim?" He sounded doubtful ... [Taim:]"I shaved, Bashere. ... It is hot this far south, or had you not noticed?
Book 6, "A New Arrival"From the above passage, as well as many others, Taim has an unusual lack of fear. Compare that with this passage, from Demandred's PoV:
If Bashere's men and the Aiel decided to kill Taim, the man would have a hard time escaping that courtyard however he channeled, unless Rand helped him. Yet Taim paid the soldiers and the Maidens no more outward attention than he did the collonades' columns or the paving stones beneath his boots. Bravery, real or feigned, or something else?
Book 6, PrologueMatches up pretty well.
He had rooted fear out of himself long ago.
Demandred and Taim both have the same tendency to "almost-smile".
From the Prologue of Book 6, we have from Demandred:
Book 6, PrologueThroughout book 6, from Taim:
Demandred came as close to smiling as he ever did.
...
The corners of his mouth twitched, as close to a smile as Mesaana had ever seen from him.
Book 6, various chaptersHave a look at all those almost-smiles! The phrases "almost-smile" or "half-smile" or "almost smile" don't occur elsewhere in the first six books, with the exception of phrases like "He almost smiled" which implies no smile. It's quite a coincidence.
The prisoner's mouth quirked in what might have been the beginning of a smile
The corners of his mouth quivered again in that almost smile as he rose
Taim's mouth quirked again. It really was not a smile
the corners of his mouth twitching for one moment in that almost smile
Taim's mouth quirked in that near smile
That peculiar almost-smile quirked his lips
Taim flashed that half-smile again
Taim was looking at him, wearing that almost-smile
Taim turned to Rand, that almost-smile on his lips
Taim appeared as close to a smile as Rand had ever seen him
A description of Taim in book 9 includes
Book 9, PrologueAnd in his own PoV, Demandred thinks:
"the unthinking dominance of his stance."
Book 9, "Wonderful News"A small point, but considering they come from the same book it is not too much to say that RJ did it on purpose.
[Demandred] "was aware that he dominated the room. He always did."
When Demandred finally reveals his plans to a few Forsaken at the beginning of book 6, we get the following PoV from Mesaana:
Book 6, PrologueThis has always been the clincher for me. They have a big plan, that would require a gamble, and could handle them everything, and Demandred was the gambler. What more could you want?!! It's a perfect description of the Taimandred operation. Somehow it makes Norrydred a bit unlikely: "I'm going to disguise myself as... the chief clerk of Caemlyn!" "OMG Demandred, what a gamble! But that could hand us everything!"
"You want to know what the Great Lord told me? Very well. ...
"Let the Lord of Chaos Rule. His words, exact." ...
Then he told them the rest. Mesaana found herself shivering and did not know whether from excitement or fear. It could work; it could hand them everything. But it required luck, and gambling made her uncomfortable. Demandred was the gambler.
When Rand takes Taim to the Farm, they discuss the possibility of Forsaken and shadowspawn:
"A Woman's Eyes"Quite amazing, that. At the thought of the Forsaken abroad he is cool as a cucumber. But warn him about Forsaken among the students, and he shakes like a jelly (or jello, if you prefer). Quite extraordinary. Now it might seem that he is just thinking about Osan'gar who is about to do that very thing, but if you skip to rebuttal 3, there is enough evidence to show this isn't the case.
[Rand] "Sooner or later you will come up against the Forsaken, following me. Maybe before the Last Battle. Probably before. You don't seem surprised."
...
[Rand]"Keep a watch out for any student who learns to fast. Let me know immediately. One of the Forsaken might try to slip in among the students."
[Taim]"One of the Forsaken!" It was almost a whisper. For the second time, Taim looked shaken, this time well and truly taken aback.
Compare the above surprise of Taim with the following quites from Osan'gar:
Book 8, "A Time for Iron"The above quotes reinforce point 6. When Rand talks about killing Forsaken, Dashiva has an unusual - flinching or startling. When we see a very similar reaction in Taim, what can we think?
[Rand says] "Nobody stands nose-to-nose with the Dragon Reborn.... The Forsaken could tell [the Seanchan commander] that, whoever he is. Right, Flinn? Dashiva?" Flinn nodded uncertainly. Dashiva flinched.Book 7, "A Crown of Swords"
[Rand says] "You're all going to help me kill Sammael today." Only Dashiva looked startled; the other men just nodded.
Book 6, "Lessons and Teachers"This is probably the best known peice of evidence for Taimandred, but in our case it is one point among many. Obviously, "so-called Aiel" and "renegade Aiel" imply a knowledge of the Da'shain Aiel of the AoL. Renegade = "One who rejects a religion, cause, allegiance, or group for another" from www.dictionary.com. The Aiel who broke away from the Way of the Leaf and became warriors fit the bill nicely. But an ordinary Taim wouldn't know about that.
[Taim] "Who can say what these so-called Aiel will do."Book 6, "Dumai's Wells"
I lost several soldiers today, nine men who will be harder to replace than any number of renegade Aiel.
The only other mention of "so-called Aiel" was from the Watcher aka Moridin, who himself lived in the Age of Legends:
Book 7, "Patterns Within Patterns"
That red dress was easy to follow, and they never looked back even to see whether some of those so-called Aiel were trailing them.
When Rand inadvertantly speaks aloud about his desire to cleanse saidin in book 6, Taim has a most unusual reaction:
Book 6, "A Woman's Eyes"What? Instead of being flabbergasted, of shocked, or laughing, he imagines it from a sholarly point of view! It doesn't fit at all with Taim.
"Cleanse saidin," Taim said softly. "I think that would take more power than you can imagine."
As a metaphor, imagine Lenoardo da Vinci was talking to his friend, and he said "I think i'll make a machine to fly to the moon today." His friend wouldn't say "Hm... I don't think you have enough power to do that" - he would say "sure you are! And i'm off to Juppiter". But, what if his friend had time travelled from our present time and was disguised? He could say that, if he knew some basic rocket science.
This can be applied to the above quote. It doesn't make sense for Taim to say that remark, unless he had an intimate knowledge of the source. But Demandred might have an idea of the power involved, since he knew about the Choedan Kal, for example.
Compare the above quote with this one from Osan'gar, when Rand lets slip to him how he intends to cleanse saidin in book 8:
Book 8, "Message from the M'Hael"The above quote is a very obvious attempt by RJ to show Dashan'gar. Narishma, Morr and Hopwil are all overjoyed, but Osan'gar contemplates it like the scholar he is - baffled that Rand would conceive of something he hadn't thought of. In light of Taim's reaction, this is a very interesting quote.
Rand had not realized he had spoken any of his thoughts [about cleansing saidin] aloud. Narishma's eyes, and Morr's, and Hopwil's, belonged in one face, shining with sudden hope. Dashiva looked poleaxed.
At the General Forsaken Meeting in book 9, Aran'gar says:
Book 9, "Wonderful News"Somehow I can't see Masema trying to get close enough to watch Rand. He seems to be doing everything he can to delay his meeting with Rand. However, this does fit Taimandred rather well. For example, Taim is always visiting Rand as much as possible, until Rand made him stay away, of course. And he wanted a compact between them at first, so that he would probably be near Rand all the time, not teaching men who could channel.
"You were responsible for watching him [Rand], Osan'gar," she went on, her voice caressing every syllable. "You, and Demandred."
Rand can't even tell how Taim's clothes are made, because they seem so shiny:
Book 6, "The Black Tower"Asmodean, a Forsaken, also appeared to have the same trick, in Book 4:
The Dragons climbing the sleeves of his black coat glittered in the sunlight; thread-of-gold would do for the one, but what could make the blue shine so?
Book 4, " "
His high-collared red coat seemed shinier than silk satin...
Midway through book 6 Rand is attacked by a grey man, and Taim comes just exactly in time to kill it. However, there is more at stake here than this unusual coincidence. After the attack, they say:
Book 6, "Letters"Understandably Taim would want to know who sent the grey man, by why would he give a "great deal" and why did RJ make it more emphatic by saying "that had the ring of simple truth"? Seems a bit emphatic for Taim to use exactly those words. But consider it from Demandred's perspective:
Rand: "That had to come from Sammael."
Taim: "I would give a great deal to be sure." That had the ring of simple truth.
The Forsaken were ordered by the DO in the prologue of book 6 to "let the lord of chaos rule". That is, Rand is to be kept alive. It's easy to see this - none of the attempts on Rand's life In book 6 or 7, or the first half of book 8, came from Forsaken. The Aes Sedai capture of Rand initially treated him in splendour until he killed the warders. The crossbowmen on the roof were Fain's whitecloaks. The Grey Man is the obvious exception, as well as Sammael attacking Rand in Shadar Logoth.
The reason is this: Sammael was kept out of the loop. Demandred said in the prologue that since Sammael didn't come, he wasn't to be told of the orders. So, how does this apply to the quote? If Demandred could be sure the Sammael sent the Soulless, Sammael would have broken a direct command from the Dark One, and he could have been put away. This is the reason Moridin helped Rand kill him in book 7: because he and Shaidar Haran had been spying on them, and were concerned that he might be breaking the DO's command. He decides the command has been broken, and helps kill Rand.
So if Demandred could have known that, he would have been able to put away a powerful competitor (the last male Forsaken alive, as far as he knew at the time). The passage is understandable in this regard.
When Rand formally announces the titles of the Asha'man, and declares Taim the second asha'man, Taim goes berko. I mean, bonkers. Have a look:
Book 6, "The Black Tower"Why Rand didn't commit this guy to a mental assylum after this incident, I do not know. He has all the signs: muscles locking up in his legs "walked to the block stiffly" and his face "Taim's face made stone look soft" and his hands "he was holding the bag of swords so tightly"! And let's not forget the muscle spasms: "Taim shook visibly". There is simply no explanation for a normal Taim to behave this beserk, no matter how proud he had been.
Taim walked to the block stiffly, and Rand bent to pin the silver sword to the tall collar of his coat ...
Taim's face had as much expression as the stone beneath Rand's boots ...
Taim's face made stone look soft, what was wrong with the man? ...
He was holding the bag of sword pins so tightly it was a wonder none of them stabbed him through the cloth ...
Looking at Taim, who was making no effort to hide his disdain ...
[Rand] "What has gotten into you? You've had a burr in your breeches ever since I put those badges on you. Is it something to do with them?"
The most remarkable transformation came over the man. Taim shook visibly - with rage, Rand would have said, not fear - but when the shaking stopped, he was his old self again.
But Demandred had been second to Lews Therin his entire life in the Age of Legends. Born exactly one day after, he was always not quite achieving as much as LTT. Then when LTT was chosen as the head general in the War of Power, Demandred went bonkers and swapped sides. As The Guide says, "second was the story of his life". It's no wonder being called the second asha'man, and Rand the first, would make him go so crazy.
Taim looks too old. He would have to have channeled for decades to have that look. When Rand first sees him, he thinks:
Book 6, "A New Arrival"Rand, of course, doesn't know about Slowing, so didn't take that into account. Taim must have been a wilder because there was no-one to teach him, so he would have started channeling early. Being generous, and considering Slowing doesn't come instantaneously, he still could not have slowed after 30. That means 5 apparent years with Slowing. Considering that the most powerful channelers lived up to 700 in the Age of Legends, the dilution factor is about 10:1. So Taim would have had to live about 50 years to get 5 apparent years.
Rand studied Taim as the man and his escort crossed the courtyard. At least fifteen years older than himself; thirty-five, then, or a few years more at most.
Woaha. 50 years and no signs of taint. Suuure! The only possible explanation is Demandred using Mirror of Mists. We know that smaller changes hold much better to close scrutiny and touch, so Demandred would probably make his image a mix between his own and Taim's, so it is recognisably Taim's, but still holds up.
I don't know what else to call these. RJ does make ironic forshadowings and this kind of thing. We've seen it happen plenty of times, and I think he does it here. For example, at Taim's first arrival:
Book 6, "New Arrivals"The important parts are the bits in bold. Two references, close together, to madness. Is RJ trying to assosiate Taim with madness to warn us that there's something up with this character? Or the following quote, when Rand takes him to the farm:
Bashere took advantage of the silence. "You say you're Mazrim Taim?" He sounded doubtful, and Rand looked at him in confusion. Was this Taim or not? Only a madman would claim that name if it was not his.[two pages later]
If Bashere's men and the Aiel decided to kill Taim, the man would have a hard time escaping that courtyard however he channeled, unless Rand helped him. Yet Taim paid the soldiers and the Maidens no more outward attention than he did the collonades’ columns or the paving stones beneath his boots. Bravery, real or feigned, or something else? A kind of madness?
Book 6, "A Woman's Eyes"Not only does Bashere at first not recognise Taim, which is not suggesting much but does put us on our guard, but later on Rand (RJ) again reminds us of it. Is he telling US to keep our doubts stuck in the back of our minds?
The flame brought a startling relief to Rand, startling because it was proof Taim really could channel. Bashere's first doubts must have stuck in the back of his mind.
There are a few other points that I haven't mentioned here, such as Taim's use of the Old Tongue in the asha'man titles, which is a reflection of Osan'gar's use of it, or Taim's very accurate predictions of Sammael's defences in Illian. I haven't included them because they are the weakest points, and I can't be bothered, and this document is getting way too big. The biggest omission is LTT's ravings. Before I didn't mention them because they were not very conclusive. I might deal with them in a later version of the document.
And now, onto the case for the negative. I have to say I'm quite proud that I came up with 6 whole points, considering my affiliations. I did add my rebuttals to them, however, for, uh, the sake of completeness. Yeah.
Demandred, as we all know, hated Lews Therin. He had always been second to Lews Therin, and he hates Rand as much as he hated LTT in the AoL. He would never submit to Rand's command!
Um... not quite. We must consider that perhaps Demandred was ordered to pose as Taim, perhaps from the Dark One, perhaps in the prologue of book 6 where he got orders from the Dark One. Most people who are Forsaken generally obey orders from the Dark One.
As it happens, this is actually a point for Taimandred, because Demandred's attitude toward Rand
successfully accounts for Taim's behaviour, in two ways:
1) When Taim first came up to Rand, the bargain he offered was a "compact" where they would be
equal members. Demandred would want this, because he wouldn't want to serve under Rand.
2) Taim's brain explosion as described in Affirmative point 14.
Book 6, "Threads Woven in Shadow"Sammael thinks that Demandred is in the south, but we shouldn't leap to conclusions. Sammael doesn't have a great track record. In the very same conversation with Greandal as the above quote, he said:
He cut in sharply. "You deliver a message to Demandred from me. Tell him I know what he is up to." Events to the south had Demandred's mark all over them. Demandred always liked using proxies. "Tell him to be careful. I won't have him or his friends interfering in my plans." Perhaps he could direct al'Thor's attention there; that would likely put an end to him. If other means did not work. "So long as they stear clear of me, his lackeys can carve out what he wants, but they will steer clear or he will answer for it."
Book 6, "Threads Woven of Shadow"He was certain. And wrong. From Semirhage's PoV in the same chapter again:
"I would have had his [Rand's] head in the Stone of Tear, except that someone sent trollocs and myrddraal to save him! That was Lanfear, I am certain.
Book 6, "Threads Woven in Shadow"So, Sammael might well have been wrong. What was his quote refering to, though? "carve out what he wants" and "lackeys" implies that he is talking about an army. Add "south" but "stear clear of me" and its obvious he means the Seanchan, who are busy preparing their invasion. But from book 9 it is clear that Semirhage as Anath is the Forsaken behind the second Seanchan campaign. So Sammael was wrong all along - he thought Demandred was behind the Seanchan. And he wasn't. So Demandred isn't necessarily in the south.
Their uneasy alliance - if it could be called by so strong a name - had lasted a long time, but neither would tell her if they received secret orders from the Great Lord, any more than she would ever let them learn of the orders that had brought her here, or those that had had her send Myrddraal and Trollocs to the Stone of Tear to battle those sent by Sammael.
Um... no. The whole Osan'gar / Aran'gar operation was a secret from the other Forsaken. Shaidar Haran says to the 'gars:
Book 6, PrologueAnd Semirhage says in her PoV, when she was interrogating Cabriana Mercandes for the Aran'gar project:
"None but I and the Great Lord know you live."
Book 6, "Threads Woven in Shadow"Osan'gar was clearly meant to be a secret from the rest of the Chosen, at least for a while. So Osan'gar was probably meant to keep an eye on Demandred, as Moridin kept an eye on Sammael in book 7.
neither [Mesaana nor Demandred] would tell her if they received secret orders from the Great Lord, any more than she would ever let them learn of the orders that had brought her here
Book 9, "Out of Thin Air"Some would argue that M'Hael and Demandred seem to be two separate entities, from the above quote. It's quite, surprising, then, that they use exactly the same words. Sure, they are only saying two words, but you can say "kill him" a million other ways. Also, they both did not want the renegades to be found if they killed Rand / after they tried to, both using similar words. Moridin, on the other hand, doesn't mention this at all. It seems like an argument for Taimandred.
"Kill him," the M'Hael had ordered before sending them to Cairhien, but he had been as displeased that they were found out as that they had failed. ...
"Kill him," Demandred had commanded later, but he had added that it would be better they died than let themselves be discovered again. By anyone, even the M'Hael, as if he did not know of Taim's order.
Anyway, Taimandred would have no reason to tell the renegade Asha'man that he was under cover - there would be too much risk involved, and no need to. By giving duplicate orders, he maintains the fiction and adds emphasis to his commands.
Book 9, "With the Choedan Kal"Surely if Demandred were Taim he would have recognised Flinn, his first ever student? Um... not for certain. The passage is not clear in several ways: we don't know how long Demandred got a look at the party. It could have been only 2 paces, to see Flinn's limp. That isn't much time at all. They are dressed as normal people, because Demandred thinks "or just people in the wrong place at the wrong time?" and we know Flinn isn't wearing his Ashaman coat.
Suddenly he saw people off to the right ahead of him through the trees, and sheltered behind a rough gray trunk. A bald-headed old man with a fringe of white hair was limping along between two women, one of them beautiful in a wild way, the other stunning. What were they doing in these woods? Who were they? Friends of al'Thor, or just people in the wrong place at the wrong time? He hesitated to kill them, whoever they were. Any use of the Power would warn al'Thor. He would have to wait until they passed. The old man's head was turning as if he were searching for something among the trees, but Demandred doubted a fellow that decrepit could see very far. Abruptly the old man stopped and thrust out his hand straight toward Demandred, and Demandred found himself frantically fending off a net of saidin that struck his warding much harder than it should have, as hard as his own spinning would. That tottering old man was an Asha'man! And at least one of the women must be what passed for Aes Sedai in this time, and joined with the fellow in a ring.
Most importantly, though, Demandred didn't get close enough to recognise the Aes Sedai. He only realises when he feels the Power directed at him is too strong for one person. If he couldn't recognise an Aes Sedai with an ageless face, he wouldn't have gotten a very good look at Flinn. Add to that that he hasn't seen Flinn for 2 months (the start of book 7), and I would be surprised if he did recognise him.
At the end of book 8, when Taim meets Rand in Cairhein, and sees the mad Fedwin Morr, he says "I will take this one with me, if you wish." He can't recognise Fedwin Morr, who Rand took at the same time as Flinn. Note that Taim does know Flinn's name, at least, since he arranged for him to be declared a renegade. This doesn't imply he would recognise him, however.
Book 9, "With the Choedan Kal"It can be argued that this phrase implies that Demandred did not think that a man like Flinn could channel, which means that he couldn't have been Taim. There are two problems with this.
That tottering old man was an Asha'man!
Firstly, as I stated above, the passage is ambiguous. It is not completely clear as to what he is shocked about. Demandred is after all, a Forsaken, and is contemptuous of Third Agers. To be attacked by them would probably come as a great blow to his pride. The discovery of the Asha'man is dramatic, seeing as Demandred is the one attacked, not the other way round. It could easily be this.
Secondly, I don't see any reason why Demandred would assume the old man couldn't channel. Even people who have Slowed will still look like old people as they get really old, as Demandred would know, having been surrounded by channelers at channeling school (whatever it's called).
