Is Christ in Everyone?
Christ Is All
and In All: An Email Discussion
“The Eternal Vantage Point” article became a springboard for a theological and very practical discussion with a friend about the extent of Christ’s indwelling spirit, and our Father’s view of his creation. The discussion is presented here for the edification of the body.
I do enjoy the
thought, but know
that the reality is much different. This belief has been presented to
and I know all about it. Part of the reason my words come across so
effect correction in some is due to thinking we've arrived already.
like it or not Dean, it is a Preterist view. There are many who will
with your thought of seeing it through God's eyes.
Now I know that
God does see us
completed in Christ, but because He is God, I know He also tells us
through the Apostles writings and the writings and ministry of others
"cleanse ourselves of all filthiness of flesh and spirit" [2
Corinthians 7:1] and other such things which revealed our
God. In other words, God works still to RECONCILE. That the time of the
restitution of all creation has not yet arrived but is still in the
known as "the future". There 'will be' a time when God will pronounce
the times of the restitution of all things, we are not at that time.
point of fact, we are very far from unity in the Spirit in this hour.
so many doctrines floating about, so many divisions, discords, broken
truces dishonored and many still are in ministry who are going for the
of men or money. In so very many the mystery of Iniquity does still
me to believe what you say from "God's eyesight", I would have to throw
out the Mystery of Iniquity which Paul warned us would be so forceful
prominent in these last days, so much so that one would appear AS God
deceive many. There is God who is I AM THAT I AM and there is god who
is I AM
AS GOD. Two kinds. So if we see every man as All in All in perfection
have not allowed this mystery of Iniquity to run full course and to
the earth it's intended purpose. For this mystery the Apostle said,
UNTIL He be taken out of the way. 2 Thessalonians 2:7. The He being
this son of
perdition, the Adamic nature. It's still here in the earth Dean and it
fully functioning as a force against God and not for God. And it is
growing, not shrinking.
That is not the
order of God
reconciling and restoring creation. God has chosen to restore creation
the manifestation of the Sons and Daughters of God, which
has not yet taken place.
Dean I will counter your claims of God's eyesight with God's true
that is that God is working only in a few to bring them to perfection
Fruits unto God, THEN the rest of humanity, EACH MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER,
you will as the scriptures put it "But every man in his own order:" 1
Corinthians 15:23. God has decided in His sovereignty upon His Throne
this as a progressive work through individual obedience, not a done
said, "It is finished". Well, the thing Jesus finished was our
salvation. But then Paul says in Philippians 2:12 that we are to "work
out" THIS salvation with fear and trembling. If it were a done deal for
everyone and God was now All in All, then what is this that Paul speaks
Scratch that one out of the book too Dean. This salvation of Christ is
progressive stepping out exercise program for those enduring
WORK THIS OUT. We walk it through and bring it about by subduing our
flesh natures unto the impaling of personal crosses, which we are still
bear. For if I believe what you wrote, then the cross is over too! Not
Dean, I am still canceling out self in me. So then I can't fit into the
eyesight of God you speak of.
There are many
other examples I
could give, like no need for the 5-fold ministry or armor of
righteousness or discernment of the Sword of the Lord if what
you wrote is
correct. These things are all to be discarded. Next thing we'd have to
discard the whole bible if what you wrote is true! Don't allow the
ultimate reconciliation to become a swing that leads to TOO MUCH good
The pendulum needs to be kept in balance according to present truth.
BE All in All when the times for that come, but that time is not yet.
comes for those who are the fallen tabernacle of David.
I trust you
Kenneth B Visscher
Good to hear
from you. I appreciate
your insights and contribution to the body of Christ.
You present a
you say, “Don't allow the truth of ultimate reconciliation to become a
that leads to TOO MUCH good doctrine.”
this tension as God’s
view being above our own views.
we begin to see beyond all the various schools of theology
as good as they may be, whether Futurist, Premillennial, Millennial,
Post-millennial, Preterist, or Historical… Perhaps, then we
will begin to
see the unity that truly exists in Christ.
have to see by faith
before we can experience the reality.
After we see with spiritual
understanding, then we can be strengthened
with all might
that we might walk worthy of the Lord.
This role of
revelation seems to be
suggested by Paul.
this cause we also, since the day we heard [it], do not cease to pray
and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge
of his will in
all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
is a message
that often needs to be seen and believed if we are to walk in
know you understand this
and I appreciate your perspective.
As you say, “I
know that God does
see us completed in Christ, but because He is God.” And
so I agree,
and often, there is a pastoral heart that cares for those who are
in the darkness, and sometimes, there is even a prophetic call that
we are looking at is two sides of the same coin.
came and died it was
revealed that the old sacrifices were not necessary. They had served
purpose. However we did not throw out the Old Testament. Today, we read
with a deeper insight, understanding how it taught us and led us to
Indeed, if we
see the consummation
as complete, we are no longer bound by the traditional understanding of
scriptures. However, if and when we see new truth, I trust that this
mean that we have to scratch old things out of the Bible. We can bring
out of our
treasure things new and old.
you say, we won’t
“have to scratch that part out of my bible”, as we begin to see more
from a divine perspective. We will, however, be freed from the
try to recreate the past, and liberated to move forward into whatever
bring us into. Also, we will be less likely to impose
scripture on our
your concern. This in
unchartered territory and we don’t know where it will take us. I
post this article for this very reason.
But I sense
that it might also be
helpful. I am considering making some adjustments to the article to
tension between the old and new seems ever present.
see all things new.
old creation is gone. The new is come. 2Corinthians
things are made new.
Nor does the
or destroy the old. But we no longer see the need to impose it on one
as each of us, every man in his own order, begins to walk in this
life. Nor do we need to discount the journey of another who
is on a path
of discovery, which is not yet walking in the same insight. Just as we
Jewish faith, despite its inability to satisfy us, we recognize its
the lives of others. So also, as new light comes, the current
seem old and obsolete.
Truly we are
complete in Christ. And
so the “hope of the Overcomer is (not) dashed, but answered and can be
fulfilled. Grace to me is also the realization that there is nothing
need to do, for it is already done in Christ. I just come line upon
revelation upon revelation, into the realization of it. And so we are
we don’t always see, and speak exactly the same thing,
But we are on
the same team,
Every member of the body of Christ has a useful place.
nice to hear from you and your loyalty is so wonderful to see.
is one thing I see prophetically that may help in this issue. Then
there is a
second statement I will make after that. Both apply to your response,
me was wonderful.
of all, the darkness you speak of Dean, this is part and parcel of
for mankind through the working of the mysteries of God, the one in
being the mystery of Iniquity (self will). The earth in its rotation
light to dark continually, so does our spiritual walk. And so does the
element of the purposes of God. The Lord has ordained that all His
all 16 of them, be fulfilled, including the mystery of Iniquity which
has to be
completed. For this to happen the blackboard must become very black.
part of the purpose of God.
for my statement.
type of thought you have is to me most dangerous. Why? Because it leads
malady we wrestle with now in the son company of a doctrine we call
fatherhood of God". This doctrine has brought some serious error into
camp of the Overcomers which has caused some of our brethren to go off
delusions. The fatherhood of God doctrine basically teaches God as
Father of all men, women and children. That God (or Christ if you will)
in everybody right now. Also, this doctrine lends credence to a walk
leads to lukewarm results. The end of the matter is a lack-luster walk
lukewarmness because it is all done and there is nothing left 'to do'.
That is why I am so strong
against that kind of
thought you had there Dean. I do indeed see this as the final outcome,
our present hour this outcome is not in play as YET. God will indeed
in All, but to say He is now is an affront to the premise of scripture
the fact that no one can come into the things of the Lord without being
again. If Christ is in everybody as some Kingdom preachers are saying,
everyone is now already born of the Spirit of God as Jesus taught and
the work of restoring man into salvation is no more. Really Dean, you
state this to those who are in denominations for they are so busy
kingdoms and trying to save man from the flames of eternal torment that
knew what you were saying they might have some hope!
those who Overcome Dean, it is a different matter. For the man or woman
comes to God desiring to obey the Lord and walk through their lives in
with victory as conquerors in Christ will know that the first they do
is to put
down antichrist in themselves. They first see that the real battle is
their own carnality, their own flesh nature. If the Overcomer Dean
themselves as having a flesh nature, then how does your scenario fit?
one comes honestly to God to be victorious in what Christ accomplished
in His death and resurrection they will see that they are in need of
This is a PROGRESSIVE THING. A working of "lutros", which is the Greek
for this cleansing I speak of which is as waves slowly deteriorating a
is a done deal in the fact that God WILL include mankind in totality in
salvation, but it is even more true that there are only but a very few
found this straight and narrow path which leads to righteousness. We
are not in
this totality AT THIS POINT that you speak of. And each one IN DUE
enter their time of processing into perfection in Christ. The
scriptures do not
And I say that with respect both
to what you wrote
and how you answered me.
Kenneth B Visscher
things that are believed affect the way we live. Truth sets
us free. For
example, the doctrine of the grace of God can liberate us from the
sin. However, the doctrine of grace, as beautiful as it is, has also
as an excuse and a license for loose living. Those with ill
intensions or even lukewarm hearts
have turned the grace of God into lasciviousness. Some even opposed
doctrine of grace for this very reason. Paul had to respond: “What
shall we say
then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid.”
6:1-2. Sometimes, it is wiser to address the inappropriate response to
than to completely write off the message itself.
expressed a concern about a popular doctrine: The Universal Fatherhood
God. “The fatherhood of God doctrine basically
teaches God as being
the Father of all men, women and children. That God (or Christ if you
now in everybody right now. Also, this doctrine lends
credence to a walk,
which leads to lukewarm results. The end of the matter is a lack-luster
lukewarmness because it is all done and there is nothing left 'to do'.
many similar truths that can bring out the best or the worst in us.
early church there was even a discussion whether the “restitution of
things” should be preached to the masses because of this very concern.
idea that “Christ is all and in all” is another such truth. It can
the best in us in our dealings with humankind, OR it can leave us
that there is no need for personal conversion. NEVERTHELESS improper
application of a truth does not nullify the power of the message.
is all in all.” Colossians
3:11. This is true. A proper response might be to acknowledge
and accept and embrace the Christ within. And for those of us who
believe, a proper response might be to acknowledge that of God within
recognizing that what we do to the least of our brethren we do to
is an attitude of love, based in truth.
contrast, a lukewarm response to the “Christ in all” on the part of
might be to oppose the benefits of conversion, or even to see no need
nurture the seed of Christ within. For the masses an apathetic response
be to devalue the spiritual reality of Christ in all, or the benefits
relationship with God. “
Grace of God was not intended as an excuse. The universal incarnation
in all was not so we could ignore our need to respond, but so that we
the relationship we must respond to.
learned that many truths, and many teachings can be beneficial, or
depending on the state of our hearts.
whether Christ is in all, there are some scriptures that are relevant. All things
were created and exist
in Christ. Christ came that he might fill all things. (Ephesians 4:10).
all so interconnected in the One Body that it is a stretch to suggest
it was IN HIM that all things were CREATED, in
Even now, All
things EXIST, and consist, cohere and are held together
He Himself existed before all things, and IN
All things find their consummation and fulfillment in
planned] for the maturity of the
Not only is all
in Christ, but Christ FILLS everything with
is His body, the fullness of Him Who FILLS ALL
Who descended is the [very] same
This is not
just in the future. Christ is all and IN ALL. (Colossian
I think of Christ filling all things with Himself,
for these alone do I pray [it is not
purpose from before the foundation of the world
Some see this
exclusively as a yet future event. This may not be the
Many still see
the division between believer and non-believer. This is
acceptable, but not the whole truth, and needs to be balanced with
All humanity is
even now united in one in Christ. Jews and
Gentiles are united in one
body in Christ. Making “in himself of twain (of two groups) ONE NEW
making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by
cross. Ephesians 2:15-16.
especially enjoyed Ephesians because it moves salvation into the
present tense much more than most of the New Testament.
died and rose. All humankind and creation participated in this event.
There has been
a new creation. A new birth. A new man. And everyone is
included. What is done, will be manifested every man in his own order.
needs to be revealed. This is a
PROGRESSIVE THING. A progressive revelation.
It is finished.
It is being worked out. And it will be completed. All
are true. Each viewpoint complements the other. I often have the
much of what is opposed and fought about in the religious circles is
holding to a limited perspective, and an incomplete revelation. We need
whole body, and each other to see the whole picture.
that appear to be in opposition to one another, are really already
together in one. (And being reconciled). Even opposing ideas,
works are reconciled together, and complementary in Christ. Even the
which was created for a purpose, has its place. Everything is
One under the One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through
in you all.” Ephesians
as your concern suggests, such talk of the Universal Fatherhood of God
sometimes troubling. Perhaps for good reason. It can be
are even called children of the devil, but there is still one God and
all, who is above all. There are two sides to every coin, and there is
you do share your concerns, I will probably be able to agree with you,
recognize the validity of your position. However, this darkness and
apparent divisions have a place in the working out of the ultimate
the one body. For this reason, they are not so troubling, for he has
one, and he is our peace.
things are from Him, through him and to
powers of the age to come into the present,
URfriend, Dean Johnson
of all, this will be extremely short, not at all nicely laid out as you
with your email above, I am limited for time today and want to keep
brief as I can with the hope that Ross may wish to say more.
are most right about being my friend Dean. I love you so much brother,
in my heart every day and I want you to know that.
I will only say about the verses you shared above that there are also
other verses, which say opposite. Verses, which exemplify very clearly
that no one can come to Jesus for salvation except that Father draws
person. Verses that one MUST be born again. Verses which reveal our
war against God prior to knowing He loves us. I have just as many
prove that God or Christ is NOT in every man at this time! The bible is
source for these.
that is not to say that I do not know that HE WILL BE ALL IN ALL. But
He is NOT
YET ALL IN ALL, for there are some who go out from us because they are
us! Not only so, but EACH MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER.
Dean, there was one line I will take time to comment on. I quote you
QUOTE: "Christ died
and rose. All
humankind and creation participated in this event." END QUOTE.
positionally this is true, but it is NOT TRUE in the daily working out
salvation which comes by enduring trials, tribulations, fires and
bearing of a personal cross to cancel out our own way etc, etc, etc.
all men are participating in what Christ did POSITIONALLY for them for
know not yet the light of salvation.
to say, "Jesus is inside of you, find Him there" is very very
dangerous, UNSCRIPTURAL and LUKEWARM. Simple as that. Other than the
arguments noted above in your email, for a man to say Christ is in
HE WAS NOT would be a gross area of pride and deception. (Paragraph
Not just that but if you have
been reading my
writings on the Ephod you will see I shared about the son of perdition.
the religious nature of the fallen part of our nature which IMITATES
this nature LIVES IN YOUR MIRROR. This entity of darkness imitates
the Lord in every single respect. If you read this at my writings you'd
what I mean for I have experienced this first hand. When you tell
Jesus is in you, then they look and 'think' they see Him there, when in
can be this iniquity looking just like Jesus, talking like Jesus,
Jesus, glorious like Jesus - but ISN'T JESUS, then you have deceived
person. This is very real and it is very very serious.
reason we now have broken the Lord's law of unity that Christ prayed
John 17 and ended up with some 65000 christian divided
because men look in and see this false Jesus thinking it's the real
Simple as that.
when you tell me He is in everyone, you better balance it out with the
the Word of God that says very clearly He is not in everyone! You can't
have it one way Dean.
Your Friend in Christ,
Dean; Am Cc'ng this email to Ross McKay,
We were in
prayer together and we
know that this is new age, this Jesus in
Further as to
how I see this
I think I
understand your concern.
There is a good
reason why the
scriptures separate and divide the sheep from the goats. Indeed, there
those who believe in Christ, and those who do not. And you have a
concern that is valid. From a practical standpoint it can be useful to
recognize this distinction. We see this throughout the scriptures.
email about the
interpretation of the Ephesian scriptures. It is partially correct.
many of the scriptures in Ephesians are deliberately worded in such a
more than one interpretation is possible. This is done on purpose
Ephesians so that the scope and the extent of the message will be read
differently depending on the insight and perspective of the reader. In
way, not only the believers in
For example in
“Fullness” can refer to Christ or the church, and the filler can be God
Christ, so in this way "the fullness of him who fills all in all" seems
to be deliberately worded in such a way that several meanings are
As well, in Ephesians the lines between church, Christ and God are
fuzzy. Therefore, the church is both that which is filled and completed
Christ, and that which fills and completes Christ. As well, the word
used repeatedly, and can refer to the church, or to all creation
(1:10,11,15,21,22). Saints or “holy ones” can refer to believers and
angelic beings. (3:8-10, Daniel 4:17) The typical rule of exegesis that
there is one right interpretation does not apply. The author intended
meaning to been seen, as we were able
I will attempt
to express why I see
the need to share the things I have written about the eternal
believe they are necessary if we are to move ahead.
came, the Old Testament,
though still valid at the time, was passing away. And though
it was still
valid, those who lived in that old paradigm of separation, and
temple sacrifices, became stuck in the past, often trying to control or
upon those who could see to a new day dawning.
There is a
story about the Pharisees
who knew the scriptures, but they could not see past the scriptural
their day to the Eternal God who gave them. Mired in their own
interpretation of their own experience, they could not see God’s
Pharisees came to him, and
asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away [his] wife?
to write a bill of
divorcement, and to put [her] away.
hardness of your heart he
wrote you this precept. Mark
were written for the hardness
of our hearts.
Our need to
separate and divide is
beginning, it was not so.
In this passage
marriage, God is trying to teach us that we are all one. Paul built on
when he tried to express the great mystery. Ephesians
The church, which is the body of Christ, includes all things. There is
4:4 Christ is all there is. We sometimes fail to see this one
we are still focusing on the old realm of Adam, which was alienated
life of God through ignorance, because of blindness. (Ephesians
I tend to think
this was the
challenge that the Apostles faced in all their writings: Having a
give, and yet being unable to deliver it because of the hardness of
Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye
I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not
bear it], neither yet now are ye able.
They had to
speak using the manner
and worldview of mere men because of the infirmity of the audience. Romans
they wrote to the Jews, who embraced the law and its consequences, they
as a Jew. When they wrote to a Gentile, they became as Gentiles.
folk become so
accustomed to this paradigm of separation and alienation, which shows
need for Christ, that they think it is normal and proper to perpetuate
paradigm of alienation. And they quote the scriptures, and the apostles
wrote to them because of the hardness of their hearts, to back their
They may speak
of and even embrace
divorce, or that some should be put out of the Church, or other
these are temporary measures to bring us to Christ. It was not so from
beginning, God was the
Father of all. And in the end, God shall be the Father of
all. And there
shall be no separation or division. We were all one. And we shall be
Many things are written even in the scriptures that seem contrary to
These things are written for our learning that we through patience and
of the scriptures might have hope. When these things pass away then the
still see a division
between believer and unbeliever. But Christ justifies the ungodly. What
joined together before the foundation of the earth, let not man put
Christ, we are all one. Jews and Greeks, male and female, bond and
is no difference. “What God hath cleansed”, we do not have to call
Little by little we begin to see through the religious paradigms that
in the past. This is why I wrote about seeing our world from the
have been written to us because of the hardness of our hearts and our
to see, but that does not change what exists from the beginning.
journey is to get past our own limited temporal insight, and to see
they were in the beginning, and how they will be in the end, and to
teach appropriately, from that perspective.
George Hawtin once
writing that as the end of the age approaches those paradigms that are
sacred will begin to pass away. If I remember correctly, he wrote these
about church meetings. The scriptural teachings and practices of this
pass, and those that live and teach according to the powers of the age
will be misunderstood. This is true. But I also
today many still feel the need for these things. Many things
in the scriptures, and are still allowed if only for the weakness of
and the hardness of our heart. Granted, we still use the human
separation, alienation, and division. We still have believers and
sheep and goats, and not all are called the children of God. But it was
from the beginning, neither will it be in the end.
We also must
take heed lest our
knowledge become a stumbling block. And conversely, we must
also take heed
lest we become as the Pharisees and the Sadducees quoting the
divide, alienate and separate. This is not how the scriptures were
Division and separation is a paradigm of a bygone and passing age.
all and in all. This is the present day foretaste of the end when God
become all in all. In our day-to-day living we must take care not to
There is one
God and Father of all.
It was so from the beginning and so shall it be in the end. Let’s not
those who have faith to see beyond this evil day, and who want to live
accordingly. Rather let us have wisdom to acknowledge divine insight,
to direct it appropriately, so that it does not lead to error.
Christ is all
there is, Colossians
In the light
that lightens every man
that cometh into the world, John
PS It is in
embracing the eternal
realities now, that we appropriate them in the present.
done this for us in the incarnation. As his body, we also have the same
privilege. As a man thinks in his heart so is he. As a man thinks in
so he becomes. Proverbs
We are all one.
At this point, I believe Ken might have become busy writing his blog, and relating this and similar discussions with others in the body of Christ. The next email was just a forwarded message originally intended for other recipients, and a message directing me to his blog, but these too are relevant, and related to this discussion.
***** and *****,
writing has been posted at
The Visscher Family Homepage www.kbv.ca
May the Lord
direct us into His
All I can say
Dean is that you are
the most precious brother I have ever
corresponding with Ken,
others got involved in the discussion.
A quote was
pointed out from my site
that I think may relate to this discussion.
believe that there is
that of God in every man. Jesus is the light that lightens every
is the life that is breathed into every person. He is the word and the
that is planted into the hearts of people everywhere. That seed will
every person made alive will fully manifest the life and glory of God.
look on the outward man, but we see Jesus, the image of God, in
from “Who Are
What do you
think? Let the body Speak.
In Love, Share Your
Thoughts for the Edification of the Body.
Contact Dean Johnson