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• Page 6242 - RADISLAV KRSTIC


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• Page 6242 • {1/86}

(1)Friday, 20 October 2000
[Open session]
[The witness takes the stand]

--- Upon commencing at 9.25 a.m.

(5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, technical booth, interpreters; good morning, league assistants and registrar, the Office of the Prosecutor, Defence counsel; good morning, General Krstic. We shall resume our work now, and at the end of the day, perhaps we can have a small Status Conference to see exactly where we stand with (10)relation to the translation of documents but for the moment, we will resume, and, Mr. Petrusic, you have the floor, please.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Good morning, Your Honours, my learned friends from the Prosecution, and good morning to all others present in the courtroom.

(15) WITNESS: RADISLAV KRSTIC [Resumed]
[Witness answered through interpreter]

• EXAMINED by Mr. Petrusic:

• Q.: To remind you of where we stopped with the testimony yesterday, we will continue referring to the 13th of July and your movements, General, (20)on that day. So you reached the forward command post Krivaca, as you explained to us yesterday, around 5.00 or 6.00 in the afternoon. Who was present in the area of deployment of the units that were to be engaged in that area?

• A.: In the area of deployment of units that were attacking from the (25)direction of Han Pijesak and Rogatica, the units of the 1st Zvornik

• Page 6243 • {2/86}

(1)Brigade were present and deployed already, of the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade, the 1st Birac Infantry Brigade, the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade, the 5th Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade, parts of the Mixed Artillery Regiment, and from before, a battalion from the 65th Protective (5)Motorised Regiment had already taken up their positions.

• Q.: Did you meet with the commanders of those units?

• A.: Yes. That afternoon, as soon as I reached the forward command post, all the commanders of the units that were attacking from the direction of Han Pijesak and Rogatica were there, as well as the (10)commanders of the units that were going to attack from the area of Podravanje, Brestovik, Orlov Kamen, towards Zepa.

• Q.: Was Colonel Blagojevic there as well?

• A.: Yes. At the forward command post, Colonel Blagojevic was also present.

(15) • Q.: He was the Commander of the Bratunac Brigade, wasn't he?

• A.: Yes. He was the Commander of the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade.

• Q.: Did you issue him any orders?

• A.: As I did to all the other commanders. I assigned him his task as (20)well, handed him the order for the attack and for the engagement of his brigade.

• Q.: Did you, on that occasion, also issue any oral orders?

• A.: Yes, I did. I gave him oral orders relative to bringing one of his battalions for the purpose of taking up positions behind the road. To (25)take up positions behind the Vlasenica, Han Pogled, Han Pijesak, Han Kram,

• Page 6244 • {3/86}

(1)and further on to the village of Zljebovi. It can't be seen on the map, but it is in the direction of Sokolac.

• Q.: What was his main axis of activity and movement? Just wait a moment for the interpretation, please.

(5) • A.: No. That was only -- this only related to a part of the Bratunac Brigade, that is, to one battalion of that brigade, but it is also linked to the task assigned to the brigade with regard to Zepa, the main aim being capturing positions behind this line of communication to protect Serb villages in that part of the territory from any possible activity by (10)forces from Zepa should they make a breakthrough toward Olovo and Kladanj.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. Usher, could I ask you for document 69, 70, and 71. D69, D70, and D71, please. So Exhibit D69, issued by the army of the Republic of (15)Bosnia-Herzegovina, the 205th [sic] Zepa Brigade. The number is 08-22-201/95, dated the 17th of June, 1995. It is a report signed by the Chief of Staff, Ramo Cardakovic.

• Q.: General, could you please comment on this report in the context of the overall situation in the area?

(20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, Judge Wald draws my attention that the reference is not correct. The 17th of July, it should say, and not June, and the 285th.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] So let me repeat. The document is 08-22-201/95, dated the 17th of July, 1995, issued by the Chief of Staff, (25)Ramo Cardakovic, on behalf of the 285th Eastern Bosnia Light Brigade

• Page 6245 • {4/86}

(1)Zepa.

• A.: One of the possible directions for the breakthrough of the 28th Division from the safe area of Srebrenica, in addition to the direction Srebrenica, Konjevic Polje, Udrc, Tuzla was also the direction Srebrenica, (5)Podravanje, Brestovik, Zepa. A corridor had been established along that route already which the forces of the 28th Division had used for various purposes and to carry out various tasks. This document, this notice, which the Command of the 285th Zepa Brigade is sending to the Command of the 81st Division in Gorazde, says (10)that up to that date a total number of 201 soldiers had arrived from Srebrenica. This report describes the condition of those soldiers, saying that they are fatigued and that many have sustained wounds.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Let us proceed to document D70, please.

(15) • Q.: It is also a notification of the 285th Eastern Bosnia Light Brigade Zepa, number 08-22-249/95, dated the 20th of July, 1995, issued by Velid Delic. The acronym is SJB Srebrenica. Do you link this document to the previous one?

• A.: Yes. It can be seen from this document that forces from the safe (20)area of Srebrenica are continuing to arrive in the area of Zepa, and on the list we have their names and surnames and the number. The Command of the 285th Eastern Bosnia Light Brigade in Zepa wants to check their particulars, and to do so it is contacting those responsible, that is, the addressee of this report.

(25) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] And so we come to document D71.

• Page 6246 • {5/86}

(1) • Q.: This is also a report of the 285th Brigade from Zepa, dated the 22nd of July, 1995, addressed to the 2nd Corps, attention Brigadier Dudakovic, and signed by the Chief of Staff, SS Major Ramo Cardakovic. Does this document fit within the context of the previous two? Is (5)it another one in a series?

• A.: Yes, this document is another in the series of the previous two that we have discussed. The Command of the 285th Eastern Bosnia Light Brigade from Zepa is sending to its Superior Command in Tuzla this list of fighters who had (10)arrived and who belong to the 28th Division from Srebrenica. From the heading we can see that the vast majority come from the 28th Mountain Battalion, which was an elite unit of the 28th Division in Srebrenica.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Could I ask the usher for document 463, Prosecution Exhibit 463, please.

(15) THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Your Honour. Microphone. Microphone, please.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] There's a problem. I switched to another translation channel. I think that the English court reporters are not following the English. I was following the French and then I (20)suddenly got the English.

THE COURT REPORTER: There was no translation, Your Honour.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So let us see if things are better now. Mr. Petrusic, could you repeat your question, please?

(25) MR. PETRUSIC: [No interpretation]

• Page 6247 • {6/86}

(1) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] There seems to be a problem. I'm switched to the French channel and I am receiving both the English and the French. The two are being mixed. Mr. Harmon, are you listening to the French or the English?

(5) MR. HARMON: I was listening to the English, but I didn't get the English on my headset.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] If you switch to the French channel, you will be hearing the English. Wonders will never cease. Is there a problem?

(10) THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour. Can you hear me? Can you hear the English? Are you receiving the English? No?

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, yes, we can hear you. And the French booth? Yes. I heard the English booth well and I also heard the French booth well. So let us try once again. (15)Mr. Harmon.

MR. HARMON: Unfortunately, I didn't get the English booth. If I can get a test so I can confirm that I can follow the examination, I would appreciate it.

THE INTERPRETER: One, two, three; one, two, three; Mr. Harmon, (20)are you getting the English?

MR. HARMON: That's fine.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: We have had problems. We change languages here. I hope the French booth -- after this experiment, can we continue? Mr. Petrusic.

(25) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] No.

• Page 6248 • {7/86}

(1) THE INTERPRETER: One, two, three. Can you hear me now?

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] There seems to be a problem with one of the microphones.

THE INTERPRETER: Yes. We will switch to the other microphone, (5)Your Honour, for the time being. So we'll just use this microphone.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] The French booth has suggested that we keep working without interruption. Just use the same microphone, please. Mr. Petrusic.

(10) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.]

• Q.: So this is the order dated the 13th of July, 1995. The number is 01/4-157-5, issued and signed by Major General Radislav Krstic, and the heading is "Commander." Could you please comment on this order, General, first in light of (15)the tasks that follow from this order.

• A.: On the basis of the intelligence that we had at our disposal that had reached us until the 13th of July, 1995, which dealt with the possibility that a part of the forces of the 28th Division might try to break through from the direction of Srebrenica towards Zepa, and for the (20)purpose of protecting the process of assembling and bringing in the units of the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade, the 1st Milici Light Infantry Brigade, and the Independent Skelani Battalion in the area from which they were to set off to execute their mission in Zepa, and that is the wider area of Podravan, I issued an order in my capacity as the Commander of the (25)forces engaged against Zepa to search the terrain in the areas of assembly

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(1)and along the axis along which the units were being brought in, and that is the wider area of Podravan. The order for the execution of the task against Zepa clearly shows that these units were engaged against Zepa, and in the execution of this (5)task -- and that in the execution of this task, they were subordinate to me.

• Q.: This order was signed by you in the capacity of the Commander. Does that refer to the Corps Commander?

• A.: No. No. It has nothing to do with the duty of the Corps (10)Commander. But as the Commander of the forces that were engaged on the execution of the task against Zepa, because according to the order issued by General Mladic, I was assigned the Commander of these forces, and in the execution of the task, I was subordinate to the Main Staff.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Can we please have the Prosecution (15)Exhibit 483 placed on the ELMO.

• Q.: Were you then the Commander of the forces in accordance with the order number 02/04-185/1 [sic], and the forces are the 1st Zvornik, the 1st Bratunac, the 1st Birac, the 2nd Romanija, the 1st Prodrinje, the 5th Podrinje, the 1st Milici, the 1st Vlasenica, and the 5th Mixed (20)Artillery Regiment.

• A.: Yes, precisely. But when you mention the units such as the 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade, the 1st Birac Infantry Brigade, the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade, then only the elements of these units taking part in the operation against Zepa are meant. And this order (25)indicates, taken as a whole, that the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade

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(1) Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and English transcripts.

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(1)and the 1st Milici Light Infantry Brigade were wholly engaged against Zepa.

• Q.: The 65th Protective Regiment was not mentioned in the order. Had it been resubordinated to you?

(5) • A.: This battalion, which was part of the 65th Protective Motorised Regiment that was engaged against Zepa -- I have already spoken about that in my testimony so far -- it was deployed on the positions, defensive positions, ever since the beginning of the outbreak of the conflict in that area, facing Zepa. Although this battalion is not listed in this (10)order, the order had not been issued to it, it did take part in the operation against Zepa, which was only logical, because it was deployed in the area. So it was also a part of these forces.

• Q.: Who was in command of that battalion?

• A.: That battalion was commanded by the battalion commander, and more (15)specifically, in this situation it was commanded by the Chief of Staff of the 65th Protective Motorised Regiment.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] For the record, the Defence will repeat the number that the document P483 bears. It was the order with the number of 02/04-158-1, dated the 13th of July, 1995.

(20) • Q.: General, do you know the name and the duty held by Colonel Milanovic?

• A.: Yes. Colonel Milanovic was from the staff of the Drina Corps. He was on the staff of the Drina Corps. He was the Chief of the air defence in the Drina Corps.

(25) • Q.: Was he involved in this time period that we're discussing now,

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(1)that is, the 13th of July and thereafter?

• A.: Colonel Milanovic was a very experienced commanding officer when it came to exerting command over units even outside of his branch of the military because before the operations against Srebrenica and Zepa began, (5)he was a Commander of one of the brigades in the Drina Corps, and then after he arrived at the Drina Corps Command, he very frequently dealt with the combat readiness of the units of the Drina Corps. Colonel Milanovic was also involved in the crushing of the offensive launched by the BH army that I have discussed earlier, from the (10)direction of Tuzla towards Zvornik and Srebrenica in the area of responsibility of the 1st Birac Brigade. I primarily refer to the area of Osmaci and the feature Vis. Colonel Milanovic, in the Srebrenica operation, was engaged in monitoring the operation of the forces of the 2nd Battalion from the (15)direction of Podravan towards Alibegovac and Kak throughout the operation until the 11th of July, 1995. As regards Zepa, Colonel Milanovic was also involved in monitoring the preparations and the assembling of the units of the 1st Milici Brigade, the 1st Bratunac brigade, and the Independent Skelani Battalion (20)and their deployment in the wider area of Podravanje and Zeleni Jadar for the purpose of launching an action from in the are of Podravanje, Brestovik, Orlov Kamen, Zlovrh, Zepa.

• Q.: Did you have any information from Colonel Milanovic? Did you have any contacts with him either through radio communications or any other (25)type of communication?

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(1) • A.: Yes. Since Colonel Milanovic was in charge of monitoring the units that I have just indicated, he did have a possibility to send me written reports as well, written requests and similar documents, from the movable communications -- rather, mobile communications centres, from the (5)1st Milici Light Infantry Brigade and the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade, whose centres were in the area of Podravanje, after they had assembled; or from some previous locations, if I can call them the peacetime locations, at the Commands of the 1st Milici Brigade, the 1st Bratunac Brigade, that is, from Bratunac and Milici.

(10) • Q.: On the 14th of July, in the morning hours of that day, this order to launch an attack against the Zepa enclave is reaching the stage of execution.

• A.: Yes. On the 14th of July, as it is indicated in the order, the operation involving the units engaged towards Zepa began.

(15) • Q.: On that day did you meet with or contact anyone from the Command, from the Corps Command, or the Main Staff of the VRS?

• A.: I didn't have any physical contact with any of the representatives of the Commands that you have indicated. I'm referring to the Drina Corps Command and the Main Staff Command. (20)On that day I got a telephone call from the Drina Corps Commander, General Zivanovic, and in very few words he said that the situation in the area of responsibility of the 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade was very complex and uncertain. He also ordered that the Commander of the Zvornik Brigade, Lieutenant Colonel Vinko Pandurevic, immediately, together with (25)one part of his brigade which was engaged towards Zepa, should return to

• Page 6254 • {13/86}

(1)the area of responsibility of his brigade. He also told me that in relation to the pull-out of this part of the Zvornik Brigade he had had contact with General Mladic and that General Mladic had approved of the pull-out of one part of this brigade.

(5) • Q.: Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic together with a portion -- with elements of his forces, did he return on that day to his area of responsibility?

• A.: Immediately after I had received this order of General Zivanovic, I called the Commander of the 1st Zvornik Light Infantry Brigade, (10)Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic, I transmitted the order to him, and in the course of that night, the night between the 14th and the 15th of July, he executed the task he had received; that is, he pulled out his unit and organised a march towards his area of responsibility along the Plane-Han Pijesak-Vlasenica-Milici-Konjevic Polje-Zvornik route.

(15) • Q.: At the time of those events, when the Zvornik Brigade was being pulled out, did you have any knowledge, any information from the other side, as regards the situation in the area of responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade?

• A.: On that same day, I don't remember if it was before General (20)Zivanovic called me or after, at the Krivaca forward command post we received a call from the Chief of Staff of the Zvornik Brigade who submitted the same request as the one contained in the order of the Command of the Drina Corps. I don't know whether it was Colonel Vicic or Colonel Jevdjevic. I talked to one of them; I don't know who it was. But (25)there was a call that came at that time.

• Page 6255 • {14/86}

(1) • Q.: On the 15th of July, were there any significant events happening at the command post, around the command post? What did you do on that day? What kind of information did you receive on that day?

• A.: On the 15th of July, as regards the activities undertaken towards (5)Zepa, I should say that they were being conducted according to the plan. However, the combat operations were very slow due to the terrain features along the axes that were used to launch the attack towards Zepa. I remember that in the morning of the 15th of July, at the Krivaca forward command post, General Mladic arrived together with General (10)Tolimir. Upon his arrival I made a report to him and briefed him about the situation along the axes where combat activities were taking place towards Zepa.

• Q.: Did those two officers make any comments, the officers who had just arrived?

(15) • A.: General Mladic said, after I had briefed him about the situation, that the combat activities were indeed very slow and that they should be continued, that the operation should continue.

• Q.: In the course of that day, did you receive any reports at the forward command post?

(20) • A.: On that day no report reached the Krivaca forward command post either from the Drina Corps Command or the Main Staff. However, a report arrived as early as on the 13th of July; I received it myself at the Krivaca forward command post. The report was signed by General Tolimir, and it said that the Main Staff was engaged in negotiations with the (25)representatives of the Bosniak authorities of Zepa, and also with their

• Page 6256 • {15/86}

(1)military leadership regarding the situation with Zepa.

• Q.: That report was sent to the forward command post.

• A.: Yes. We received it at the Krivaca forward command post.

• Q.: Was that report commented upon during their visit?

(5) • A.: It didn't get any particular comments. They just said that the negotiations would continue depending, of course, on the situation that was evolving at the time.

• Q.: The date is still the 15th of July, and as regards the visit -- we're still talking about the visit of these two officers, the Commander (10)of the Main Staff and his assistant. Was anything else said to you? Did you receive any other piece of information? Was there any other talk on that occasion?

• A.: Nothing except for what General Mladic told me. He said that he was to take over the duty of the Corps Commander soon [as interpreted]

(15) • Q.: Did you -- were you aware of the decree of the President of the Republic regarding your appointment to that duty?

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Visnjic, there seems to be a problem with the transcript.

MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I think that the (20)interpretation is incorrect. Perhaps the best way to deal with it would be to repeat the question.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] What is the error you're talking about, Mr. Visnjic?

MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Question, page 14, line 6.

(25) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, I don't think that the

• Page 6257 • {16/86}

(1)answer is complete. Mr. Petrusic, you should perhaps repeat your question. The answer of General Krstic was "Nothing except for what General Mladic told me ..." I think that the General had said something else. But could you please (5)ask the question once again.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.]

• Q.: On that occasion, did General Mladic tell you that a decree of the President of the Republic, the then President Radovan Karadzic, had arrived whereby you were appointed to the post of the Corps Commander?

(10) • A.: As far as I understand the question of -- Mr. President, I should answer the first question first and then this one.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, wouldn't this be a convenient time for the break? We have an error here in the transcript. Perhaps we should have a break now and then continue after the break. (15)A 15-minute break.

--- Recess taken at 10.20 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.35 a.m.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Petrusic, you may continue.

(20) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. So let us eliminate any discrepancies from the record.

• Q.: Did General Mladic, when you met on that occasion, tell you that you have to accept the duties of Corps Commander?

• A.: Yes. He told me that I would shortly need to take over as Corps (25)Commander.

• Page 6258 • {17/86}

(1) • Q.: Did he inform you that there was a decree of the president of the republic -- at the time it was Radovan Karadzic -- on your appointment to this position?

• A.: No, he didn't tell me that.

(5) • Q.: Did you learn about your appointment based on the decree of the President of the Republic?

• A.: Two or three days later, I think, I learnt about that decree from the media.

• Q.: So all this was happening on the 15th of July. Tell us, please, (10)how long did General Mladic and General Tolimir stay at the forward command post at Krivaca?

• A.: They did not stay long at the Krivaca forward command post.

• Q.: Do you remember roughly what time of day it was when they left the place where you were?

(15) • A.: I think it was in the morning, before noon, when they left the forward command post.

• Q.: Do you know where General Mladic went?

• A.: I think that he went in the direction of the UNPROFOR checkpoint at Boksanica, which is about 10 kilometres away. This UNPROFOR checkpoint (20)at the Boksanica Mountain is between Rogatica and Zepa.

• Q.: Are you aware of what was happening at the UNPROFOR post?

• A.: On the basis of my telephone or, rather, radio contacts with the Commander of the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade, which also participated in this operation, I was told that negotiations were being (25)conducted there between General Mladic and -- General Mladic on one side

• Page 6259 • {18/86}

(1)and Tolimir -- I'm sorry, General Mladic and General Tolimir on one side and representatives of the Bosniak people and the military units from Zepa on the other. I was informed about this by the Commander of the 1st Podrinje Brigade, because his forward command post for operations on Zepa (5)was close to the UN position at Boksanica.

• Q.: On the 15th of July, did you talk to any of the officers from the Main Staff of the VRS and the Drina Corps or to any officers, commanding officers engaged in the Zepa operation?

• A.: I only talked to the commanders of the units that were engaged in (10)the Zepa operation, and I did so exclusively via radio transmitters, RUP 12, which has encryption. I did not speak to anyone else on that day.

• Q.: Though we'll be coming back to that during these proceedings, but tell us briefly, from the forward command post, was there an established (15)connection with the brigade commands, the commands of these brigades, that is, their original headquarters?

• A.: By the establishment of the forward command post at Krivaca and the communications centre there, this was carried out technically and there were communications with the Main Staff and the Drina Corps and from (20)there on to the commands of the subordinate units.

• Q.: Did you have any need, during these days, to communicate with the commands of those units, that is, to communicate with Zvornik, Bratunac, Sokolac, Rogatica, and all the other locations where those brigades were headquartered?

(25) • A.: No. I had no need at all to talk to anyone from the commands of

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(1) Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and English transcripts.

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(1)those brigades for the simple reason that the commanders of those commands were at my side being engaged towards Zepa. So my principal task in those days was the Zepa operation.

• Q.: Briefly, on the 16th of July, at the forward command post where (5)you were located and around the command post on the front where the combat was ongoing, was anything of a major significance taking place which would deserve to be highlighted?

• A.: Nothing in particular, except that the combat operations were taking place according to plan and depending on the actual situation on (10)the ground. I think it was that day or the next day that we moved the forward command post from Krivaca to the village of Godjenje, which was to the south of Krivaca at a distance of about 6 to 7 kilometres.

• Q.: So was it the 17th or the 16th of July? Can you tell us on what day exactly this forward command post was moved?

(15) • A.: I cannot tell you exactly. I think it was the 16th or the 17th of July.

• Q.: You mentioned negotiations being conducted with representatives of UNPROFOR and the population of Zepa. Were combat activities continued? Were there any ceasefires? Were there any interruptions in the fighting?

(20) • A.: While these negotiations and agreements were being conducted at the Boksanica post, combat operations were suspended while the meeting was going on. It all depended on what was being discussed and what the aim of the talks was or, rather, what the result of the negotiations were.

• Q.: So during those few days, there were no major developments on the (25)front line. Could we put it that way?

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(1) • A.: No particular developments occurred. The battles were ongoing, which were suspended during the negotiations, and the negotiations were going on. So simply there was nothing of particular importance which I would need to underline in response to your question.

(5) • Q.: Did you go to that Boksanica post?

• A.: Yes, I was there once or, rather, close to that location, in fact, at the location itself, because I have already said that the forward command post of the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade was situated there.

(10) • Q.: Did you have any contact with General Mladic during those days?

• A.: Throughout the duration of the operation when he was there, I did have contact with him either when he came to the forward command post or if one of the Brigade Commanders would inform me that he was in the region of deployment of that brigade.

(15) • Q.: Did you have any meetings with him in addition to the information you received from the commanders?

• A.: No. There were no meetings at the forward command post at that time either in Krivaca or in Godjenje or at the Boksanica location. We didn't have any particular meetings.

(20) • Q.: General, as far as you can recollect, can you now go back to the time of the 20th of July or thereabouts in 1995?

• A.: Yes, I remember that far back.

• Q.: Can you tell us what was happening in those days?

• A.: On that day too, as regards the combat operations under way, they (25)were being carried out in accordance with the situation, but on the 20th

• Page 6263 • {22/86}

(1)or maybe on the 21st of July, 1995, in the morning -- I don't know exactly the time -- General Mladic arrived at the Godjenje forward command post and ordered me to set off for Han Kram, to one of the restaurants on the Han Pijesak-Sokolac road, in order to take over as the Commander from (5)General Zivanovic. There was to be a takeover of duty between the two of us.

• Q.: Did you go to that meeting?

• A.: Yes, I went there in my car to that meeting. When I arrived at Han Kram, I encountered many guests there. By that I mean the (10)representatives of the military, of the Main Staff; representatives of other operational formations from the VRS; some representatives of the authorities and also of businesses from the area of responsibility; also a TV team from the Main Staff; and there was also General Zivanovic there, naturally. (15)From the operational formations such as the Drina Corps, I saw General Talic, the Commander of the 1st Corps of the VRS; then there was the Commander of the Centre of the Military Schools in Banja Luka, General Boric; then the Chief of Staff of the Air Force and Air Defence, also from Banja Luka, at the time he was still a colonel, Torbica; I think that the (20)Chief of Staff of the East Bosnia Corps, General Gavric, was also there; from the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, there were no representatives; and no one was there from the Herzegovina Corps. From the Main Staff of the army of the Republika Srpska, there was General Gvero, the Assistant to the Commander -- to the Chief of Staff for (25)Morale, Legal, and Religious Affairs; then General Skrbic, Assistant to

• Page 6264 • {23/86}

(1)the Commander for Organisation and Mobilisation, and for personnel; I think there was also somebody there from the Information Directorate, from the organ that General Gvero was in charge of, and I can't remember which officer was there from that organ; and there were also the (5)representatives -- some representatives of the authorities and from the economy in the area of responsibility of the Drina Corps; I have already said that General Zivanovic was there too. So these were the persons, the officers from the military that I encountered there when I arrived at the restaurant.

(10) • Q.: Was General Mladic there?

• A.: After awhile, when I had arrived and greeted all the officers and everybody else present, General Mladic arrived in a helicopter. He was escorted by General Tolimir. He entered the restaurant and the meeting began. (15)As far as I remember, the meeting went on as follows: General Mladic read out the decree of the President of the Republika Srpska about my appointment to the post, and he said that this was the moment, the right time to carry out the takeover of duty between myself and General Zivanovic. He said that he had the -- that it was a great honour to (20)assume the duty of the Commander of the Drina Corps, which had until that time been under the command of General Zivanovic. He expressed his wish that I should be successful in my career as the Commander of the Drina Corps. Then he turned to General Zivanovic and to everybody else present (25)and told them that General Zivanovic, from the time he assumed the duty of

• Page 6265 • {24/86}

(1)the Drina Corps Commander, from the time when it was in fact established until that very day, really had great credit for the successes achieved by the Drina Corps. General Mladic in particular gave credit to General Zivanovic for the Srebrenica operation, and he mentioned Zepa too. (5)After that the usual takeover of duty took place, the normal procedure, between myself and General Zivanovic, and General Zivanovic told me that I had his best wishes in my career as the Commander of the Corps and that I should take good care of the Corps. Then the decree of the President of the Republika Srpska was read (10)out on placing General Zivanovic at the disposal for further appointments of the VRS, and of the highest military decoration of the Republika Srpska, and the decree on his promotion to the rank of Lieutenant General. The order of the Defence Minister was also read out at the (15)meeting, the Defence Minister of the Republika Srpska, about the appointment to the post of the Chief of Staff of the Drina Corps for General, then Colonel, Andric.

• Q.: Did you and General Zivanovic talk at that occasion?

• A.: No, we did not have any particular conversation apart from the (20)procedural matters regarding the takeover of duty.

• Q.: Did you talk, perhaps, about a need to draft a record of the takeover?

• A.: No, we did not talk about that, nor was this the right time or the right place to do so, because the Zepa operation was under way, the (25)meeting did not take long, and General Mladic made a point about that.

• Page 6266 • {25/86}

(1)But the record was made after I returned to the Vlasenica command post.

• Q.: So after that meeting did you go back to the forward command post?

• A.: Yes, I went back to the forward command post at Godjenje in order to continue my command over the forces advancing towards Zepa.

(5) • Q.: Do you know where General Zivanovic went?

• A.: I really don't know where he went apart from what I have already said; that in accordance with the decree issued by the President of the Republika Srpska, he was placed under the disposal of the VRS. I think that General Zivanovic said something about a duty to (10)which he should be appointed at the Main Staff. I think it was the post of the Assistant to the Commander for Logistics.

• Q.: So you are now the Corps Commander. After the takeover had taken place and you went to the forward command post in the new area, the area of Godjenje, who was at the basic command post in Vlasenica then?

(15) • A.: After that the situation changed somewhat and so did my obligations, both as regards Zepa and as regards the Corps as a whole. The command post in Vlasenica had to function and so did the forward command post for Zepa, just as it was planned and envisaged. The most senior person at the command post in Vlasenica, when it came to the (20)Assistants to the Commander, was Colonel Cerovic. On that day, after returning to the forward command post at Godjenje, I ordered Colonel Cerovic to be summoned to the forward command post at Godjenje and he did accordingly. He gave me a very brief report about the situation from the moment when I left the command post in (25)Vlasenica on the 12th, in the afternoon of the 12th, and he stressed that

• Page 6267 • {26/86}

(1)the situation in the area of responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade was extremely complex; that there were quite a few problems after the breakthrough of the 28th Division towards the areas of the Zvornik and Birac Brigades. But he also said that the situation has been stabilised (5)to a great extent and that at that time the situation was, in fact, normal. He also told me that we had a lot of obligations towards the Main Staff of the VRS, or towards other corps of the army, as regards the detachment of units and their resubordination to other corps. I primarily (10)mean the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps, because at that time the situation there was quite difficult, and of the 2nd Krajina Corps. He also told me that he had also taken appropriate measures, studied the orders, issued preparatory orders to units, elements of which were detached in order to form new units which were to be sent out of the (15)area of responsibility of our Corps.

• Q.: How long did you actually stay in Zepa and when did that military operation come to an end?

• A.: The Zepa operation took unusually long, unlike previous engagements of the Drina Corps forces, such as the engagement in the (20)Krivaja 95 operation. That length on the time that was spent was caused by numerous interruptions in the conduct of the operation due to the negotiations. Also because of the terrain features where the combat was taking place, so that finally the operation came to an end on the 2nd of August, 1995, whereupon I went back to the command post in Vlasenica.

(25) • Q.: At the command post in Vlasenica, did you find Colonel Cerovic

• Page 6268 • {27/86}

(1)there or who was the person who briefed you on the situation when you came back to the Vlasenica command post and what did you do there?

• A.: After I'd returned to the Vlasenica command post, I assembled all of the assistants to the commander except for Colonel Popovic, who was (5)absent at the time from the command post. I was briefed by them about the situation, about the problems, duties, and responsibilities that they had, and about the execution of their assignments. According to what Colonel Cerovic had previously told me about, the situation was described to me as normal, with a certain increased (10)dynamics concerning the conduct of preparations and the sending of troops to the area of responsibility of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and the 2nd Krajina Corps.

• Q.: Did they tell you that Lieutenant Colonel Popovic was absent in view of the fact that he was the Assistant Commander for Security?

(15) • A.: Yes. They told me that he was on sick leave.

• Q.: Let us go back very briefly to the decree of the Minister of the army of Republika Srpska. According to that decree, Colonel Andric was appointed to the post of Chief of Staff. When you reach Vlasenica on the 2nd of August or thereabouts, when you went back to the command post in (20)Vlasenica, did you have a chief of staff at that point? I mean, was Colonel Andric the Chief of Staff?

• A.: Yes. Pursuant to the order and the decree of the Minister of VRS, I did have a chief of staff. However, after both of us had returned to the command post, we started the procedure of the takeover of duty. We (25)toured all of the units that were deployed in the wider area of the

• Page 6269 • {28/86}

(1)Romanija plateau. Here I refer primarily to the 2nd Romanija Brigade at Sokolac and its area of responsibility. We visited the 1st Podrinje Light Infantry Brigade and its area of responsibility, in particular, the Rogatica Brigade, the 5th Podrinje (5)Light Infantry Brigade from Visegrad and its area of responsibility. We also inspected a rear base of the Main Staff which was billeted in Sokolac. I say the "Main Staff" because that base was in charge of supplying the units of the Drina Corps in terms of logistics. After we had made a tour of these units, we went back to the (10)command post in Vlasenica, and we didn't engage in any further tours of units such as the 1st Birac Brigade and the 1st Sekovici Brigade, which until then was under the command of Colonel Andric; the 1st Zvornik Brigade, which was under the command of Colonel Pandurevic; the 1st Milici Brigade under the command of Major Nastic; the 1st Bratunac Brigade, which (15)was commanded by Colonel Blagojevic; and the Skelani Battalion. Why? Why we didn't tour any of these units? There are several reasons. The first reason being my lengthy absence from my family and because of my exhaustion. I had to go see my family. The second reason was the fact that Colonel Andric, at that time, (20)was the Chief of Staff, and had he spent the previous period of time in that area. He was the Commander of the 1st Birac Brigade, and ever since the beginning of the outbreak of hostilities in that area, he was the person who was conducting all of the operations in that area except for the 1st Zvornik Brigade. All other brigades, at that time, were part of (25)the then Birac Brigade.

• Page 6270 • {29/86}

(1)After we returned to Vlasenica, Colonel Andric officially took over the duty of the Chief of Staff of the Corps.

• Q.: Was there any record made about that takeover of duty?

• A.: Yes. I believe that a record was made about the takeover of duty, (5)and officially, as of that day, he was the Chief of Staff of the Corps. And pursuant to the record on takeover of duty, he was able to exert, to make use of all his privileges and rights pertaining to him as the Chief of Staff of the Corps.

• Q.: You mentioned that you left --

(10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Harmon.

MR. HARMON: It's unclear from the answer of General Krstic what day General Andric took over control of the Chief of Staff. The answer is "as of that day," and we've had a long discussion about Colonel Andric and General Krstic returning to Vlasenica headquarters and then conducting (15)a tour of various brigades. So I'm not sure how long that took. But in answer, I would request that there be a precision as to that aspect of his testimony.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. Mr. Petrusic -- I'm sorry. Mr. Visnjic.

(20) MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I made a note in relation to the first response of General Krstic. I think that the translation was not precise, but I think, and Mr. Harmon is quite right, that we should clear up the issue.

• A.: I simply cannot recall what day it was.

(25) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.]

• Page 6271 • {30/86}

(1) • Q.: You mentioned your visit to your family. When did that take place and does it mean that you were temporarily absent from your duty, that is, that you, at that time, were absent from your area of responsibility?

• A.: Yes. Immediately after the takeover of duty between myself and (5)Colonel Andric, I went to Kosovska Mitrovica to see my family that was living there at the time, that is, throughout my tour of duty in Bosnia. I stayed there for about ten days, I think, and after that, I went back to my post.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, I should like to (10)go back to your previous question. General Krstic has just said, "After the takeover of duty between myself and Colonel Andric." I should like to know whether Colonel Andric took over the duty on the same day as General Krstic, that is, as when he, General Krstic, took over his duty. If there is a difference in time to that effect, we should perhaps ask the (15)General if he can be more specific in terms of dates and time framework of the takeover of duty of himself and Colonel Andric.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.]

• Q.: General, did you take over your duty as the Corps Commander on the 20th or on the 21st of July, 1995?

(20) • A.: Yes. I took over the duty of the Corps Commander on the day when the takeover of duty between myself and General Zivanovic took place, either on the 20th or the 21st of July.

• Q.: In relation to that particular date, could you now tell us when the takeover of duty between yourself and Colonel Andric took place, (25)Colonel Andric being the new Chief of Staff of the Drina Corps?

• Page 6272 • {31/86}

(1) • A.: I have already said after my return to Vlasenica, we started the procedure of the takeover of duty by inspecting -- by touring the units that I have indicated, but I really cannot recall the exact date on which it took place. It was in the month of August. I don't know on what day (5)of the takeover of duty between myself and Colonel Andric took place for practical purposes, but on that day, Colonel Andric took over the duty of the Chief of Staff of the corps and at the same time, the duty of the Deputy Commander of the Drina Corps.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, we should like to (10)suggest a break at this point.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Petrusic. We will have a 15-minute break.

--- Recess taken at 11.20 a.m.

--- On resuming at 11.33 a.m.

(15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, you may continue.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President.

• Q.: So after the handover of duty that we spoke about before the break between you and Andric, what activities did you engage in at the Corps Command? Generally, what did you do?

(20) • A.: After touring the units that I listed already, and after the takeover of duty between him and myself, I went to Kosovska Mitrovica to visit my family. I returned from Kosovska Mitrovica towards the very end of the month of August, after which I went to the area of responsibility of the 2nd Krajina Corps of the VRS to tour the units of the Drina Corps (25)which were already there.

• Page 6273 • {32/86}

(1)At the time in the area of responsibility of the 2nd Krajina Corps, we had two brigades at the level of light brigades. The Commander of one brigade was Colonel Pandurevic and the Commander of the other was Colonel Predrag Jocic.

(5) • Q.: Can you remember how long you stayed in the area of the 2nd Krajina Corps?

• A.: I think I stayed for about ten days, when I went back to the command post at Vlasenica.

• Q.: Returning to the headquarters in Vlasenica or the command post in (10)Vlasenica, did you learn anything about prisoners of war, if any?

• A.: Returning to the Vlasenica command post, I learnt that there had been prisoners of war and that those prisoners had been sent to Batkovici, near Bijeljina.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, the Defence would (15)request at this stage a session closed to the public, and we would like to explain our reasons for that.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, perhaps you can give us an indication of those reasons in general terms so that we can decide.

(20) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Generally speaking, the reasons are of a security nature. We're now entering a phase in the testimony which, in the opinion of the Defence and also in the opinion of General Krstic, could cause serious problems, and for these reasons we would like to have the hearing closed to the public.

(25) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] For how long, more or less?

• Page 6274 • {33/86}

(1) Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and English transcripts.

• Page 6275 • {34/86}

(1) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Until the end of the session.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, any objections or comments?

MR. HARMON: I have a comment, Mr. President and Your Honours. (5)It's unclear from the general nature of what I've been told to give a clear response. Perhaps we could go into closed session and more precise comments could be made, and then I would be in a better position to respond to the request for a closed session.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. Let me confer with my (10)colleagues, please.
[Trial Chamber confers]

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Bearing in mind that the principle of hearings should be that they should be public, the Chamber rules that we go into private session to discuss the reasons, and after (15)hearing the reasons, we will go back into public session to render our ruling. So let us go into private session now for this discussion.
[Private session]
[redacted]
[redacted]
(20) [redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
(25) [redacted]

• Page 6276 • {35/86}

(1) pages 6276-6290 redacted - private session

• Page 6291 • {50/86}

(1)/P>
[Open session]

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] We are already in public session. Let me just announce that we will now have a one-hour break at (5)this point. The Chamber will be, therefore, able to render its ruling and, if possible, have lunch as well. After that, starting at quarter past one, we will have two blocks of work with a short break in between. One-hour break.

--- Luncheon recess taken at 12.15 p.m.

• Page 6292 • {51/86}

(1) --- On resuming at 1.23 p.m.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] After the discussion that we had in private session, the Chamber is rendering its decision. The Chamber believes that the explanations provided to it can (5)justify up to a certain point the holding of hearings in part in private session. The Chamber recalls, however, that the principle is for hearings to be public, and only exceptionally they are held in private or closed session. The Trial Chamber also notes that it is important for (10)the equilibrium of the proceedings that the Prosecutor may use the elements produced during the hearing. The Chamber, in view of the fact that there is an exceptional situation, would require of the Defence to divide the follow-up of its examination-in-chief into two blocks; the first would deal with all the (15)matters which could be addressed in a public hearing; the second block, which should be as restricted as possible, would allow the Defence to address in closed session the issues which the Defence considers cannot be addressed in a public session for security reasons. That is the ruling of the Trial Chamber, which means, (20)Mr. Petrusic, that you should perhaps reorganise slightly your examination-in-chief; in other words, that we should continue in public session during which you will be able to ask all necessary questions except those which you feel affect security. When you come to those issues, those questions, you will try to group them together so that we (25)should go into private session only once, if possible.

• Page 6293 • {52/86}

(1)So you have the floor now, Mr. Petrusic, and you may continue.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. With the help of the usher, I should like to show the witness document D99.

(5) THE REGISTRAR: The registrar needs a second to find the document.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, it is a brief document and the Defence can supply a copy.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. You may continue if (10)we have the document on the ELMO.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.]

• Q.: This is an interim combat report issued by the Command of the 5th Engineer Battalion, number 107-1, dated the 13th of July, 1995, signed by the Deputy Commander, Major Milan Simanic. (15)General, could you comment on this document or interim combat report? The number of the document is 107-1, but the exhibit that has been entered in the record is D99.

• A.: In the course of my testimony, I have already said where the unit of the Drina Corps, that is, the 5th Engineer Battalion, was located, and (20)I said that it was located in Konjevic Polje. I also spoke about the tasks and duties of that unit which it engaged in prior to Operation Krivaja 95 and during that operation, as well as the tasks it carried out in the Zepa operation. I said that the bulk of the forces of this battalion, before the (25)beginning of the operation and during Operation Krivaja 95, were deployed

• Page 6294 • {53/86}

(1)to clean up the situation in the area of responsibility of the Birac Brigade - when I use the term "clean up," I mean in the engineer sense - after the forces of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina's offensive had been halted and crushed. (5)I said that the main body of this battalion was working on the construction of a command facility and the construction and repair of roads in the area of responsibility of the 1st Birac Brigade. I also said that the Road and Bridge Company of this battalion, prior to the Krivaja 95 operation and to some extent during the operation, was working on the (10)repair and construction of a macadam road going from Voljavica via Sase, towards Pribicevac and Zeleni Jadar. And I also referred to the involvement of this unit during the operation to demine the area to the south leading to Srebrenica. I also said that a part of the battalion remained in place at (15)Konjevic Polje exclusively to provide security of its own facilities, warehouses and storage space, that was under the control of the engineers battalion. This document which, as an extraordinary or interim report, was sent by the Command of the 5th Engineer Battalion to the Command of the (20)Drina Corps, it can be seen that the Deputy Commander of this battalion, Milan Simanic, is informing the Corps Command that an extraordinary event has taken place, incident, in which two of his soldiers had been injured. He also describes the way in which they had been wounded, and that is at the guard post number 6, and they were wounded when a group from the (25)28th Division came upon them. Here it says that they were civilians, that

• Page 6295 • {54/86}

(1)they had shot at the soldiers who were guarding this position number 6.

• Q.: Do you know how many soldiers there could have been in Nova Kasaba in the 5th Engineer Battalion at the time?

• A.: Let me correct. Not in Nova Kasaba but in Konjevic Polje. On the (5)basis of the information available to me, there were no more than 15 soldiers. There couldn't have been any more than 15 soldiers in Konjevic Polje at the time.

• Q.: So their duty was to secure the facilities?

• A.: Yes. Their exclusive duty was to secure the facilities of the (10)5th Engineer Battalion. Of course, at the time of the event, at the time of the break through by the 28th Division, the forces had to be reinforced. So it wasn't regular security but reinforced security as we see that there were two guards at the guard post.

• Q.: Do you have any knowledge of what happened to the civilian Muslim (15)population that came to the United Nations camp in Potocari on the 11th of July?

• A.: At the meeting that was held on the 12th of July in the Hotel Fontana in Bratunac, it was decided that the civilians should be transported or evacuated from Potocari towards Kladanj.

(20) • Q.: On the 11th of July, was there any discussion at the meeting with the Muslim representatives and the representatives of the Dutch Battalion about the evacuation?

• A.: On the evening of the 11th of July, it was already certain that civilians would be evacuated towards Kladanj or Tuzla.

(25) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Could I please ask the usher to

• Page 6296 • {55/86}

(1)place Prosecution Exhibit 436 on the ELMO. This is an order of the Drina Corps Command, number 22/96 -- 26 of the 12th of --

THE INTERPRETER: The interpreter apologises. 22/226.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] 12th July, 1995, issued by Milenko (5)Zivanovic, the Commander.

• Q.: Could you please comment on this order?

• A.: Yes. This is an order of the 12th of July, 1995, dealing with the provision of buses for evacuation from the Srebrenica enclave. It was submitted to the subordinate units in the Drina Corps. That's the (10)1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade, the 1st Birac Infantry Brigade, the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade, the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade, the 1st and 5th Podrinje Light Infantry Brigades, and the 1st Milici Light Infantry Brigade.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, I'm sorry to (15)interrupt you. Perhaps we could speed up the things but, of course, in such a way that you should not be prejudiced in any way. I don't think it is necessary to state this in detail. The document has already been identified and marked for evidence. It is perhaps not necessary to repeat all of the addressees of this document. We have it in front of us. It (20)has already been admitted into evidence. You should perhaps focus on your specific questions concerning this document and in that way we will proceed faster.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Yes, Mr. President.

• Q.: General, does this order have to do with the provision of buses (25)for transportation and the transportation of persons from Potocari?

• Page 6297 • {56/86}

(1) Blank page inserted to ensure pagination corresponds between the French and English transcripts.

• Page 6298 • {57/86}

(1) • A.: This order deals with the provision of buses for the purpose of transporting civilians from Potocari. It was issued by the Commander of the Drina Corps, Major General Milenko Zivanovic.

• Q.: Did you take part in the provision of this order?

(5) • A.: No. I did not have any activities relating to this order. The person responsible for its implementation was the assistant to the Commander of the Drina Corps for Logistics.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. Usher, could you please place Exhibit 462 on the ELMO, and 532.

(10) • Q.: So document 462 is an order for the search of the terrain. Are you familiar with this order?

• A.: Yes. I knew about this order, and it also reached the forward command post at Krivaca on the 13th of July, 1995. This order was issued by the Commander of the Drina Corps pursuant to the order issued by the (15)Main Staff, and it relates to the capture and disarming of Muslims, as it is stated here, their accommodation in appropriate facilities that can be secured with a smaller number of troops, and the Superior Command is to be advised thereof immediately. This order shows that the Main Staff controls and governs the (20)whole -- manages the whole operation. I was only informed about it. I did not have any obligations stemming from this order.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Order number 532 or, rather, Exhibit 532. Do you know anything about this order?

(25) • A.: I can't see the date on this order very well.

• Page 6299 • {58/86}

(1) • Q.: The date is the 13th of July, 1995.

• A.: Yes, I am aware of this order --

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Harmon. Did we manage to establish the date of this document through the intercepts of the (5)conversations that you had?

MR. HARMON: I can't answer that question, Mr. President. But I can't see a date on the B/C/S version of this, and if General Krstic is able to point to a date that this is the 13th of July, I would be grateful. There is a stamp, apparently, at the bottom of this, a receipt (10)stamp, dated the 14th of July. So the answer of General Krstic to my colleague's question was that this is a document of the 13th of July, and I don't come to that conclusion based on anything on the face of the document.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, please continue.

(15) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Yes, I was in fact speeding things up. Now I would like to have Exhibit 81 placed on the ELMO. That's the Defence Exhibit. My mistake.

• Q.: So the Defence Exhibit 81, the heading is the Main Staff of the army of the Republika Srpska, and the number is 03/4-1620. The date is (20)the 13th of July, 1995; also at the top of the document there is a handwritten date, the 13th of July 1995, again. "Operations, urgently prepared our order." This is what is written in the heading of the document, handwritten. The document is designed by Milan Gvero and there is a stamp. (25)So these two orders, are they identical in their contents?

• Page 6300 • {59/86}

(1) • A.: These are two identical orders. The previous document that I had commented upon is the result of this document. It is signed by the Assistant to the Commander, General Milan Gvero.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

(5) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.]

• Q.: Handwritten in the heading of the document, it is said that the document is -- the order was forwarded. Does that mean that the order had, indeed, been forwarded to subordinate units, as is stated in the heading, on the 13th of July?

(10) • A.: Yes.

• Q.: Did you receive this order on the 13th of July at the forward command post?

• A.: Yes.

• Q.: Do you know the contents -- what it says in the contents of this (15)order as regards the prisoners of war?

• A.: Yes, I am aware of the contents as far as they relate to the prisoners of war in this order. This was the first information that reached me that there were -- that people were being captured, and this order specified the manner in which they are to be captured and the (20)premises where they were to be located. This order shows that the Main Staff is in control of the whole situation.

• Q.: To whom are reports to be submitted? And who is, in layman's terms, responsible for the implementation of this order?

• A.: The Corps Commander is responsible for the implementation of this (25)order, and on the basis of the information and the reports received from

• Page 6301 • {60/86}

(1)subordinate units, he is to report to the Superior Command - in this case it is the Main Staff; and the Main Staff determines the treatment of the prisoners of war and they take appropriate action as they deem necessary.

• Q.: Does that mean that the treatment of the captives is in the sphere (5)of -- in the jurisdiction of the Main Staff?

• A.: Yes. From this order and the order of the Corps Commander, it is quite obvious that it is in the jurisdiction of the Main Staff.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] I would now like the usher to place Exhibit 649, that's Prosecution Exhibit 649, and D109, Defence Exhibit (10)109.

• Q.: General, the order contained in Prosecution Exhibit 649, do you bring that order in relation to what had actually happened in the area on the 17th of July, 1995?

• A.: Yes, precisely. I can establish a link between this order and (15)what I had testified to yesterday, when the continuation of the Krivaja 95 operation was ordered after the units had implemented the decision of the Drina Corps Commander, and when General Mladic ordered the operation to continue, and took over command of these units. This order, I can also connect it with what the Chief of the Main (20)Staff said at the Command of the Bratunac Brigade, at the meeting, and that is that hereinafter, he was in command of all the formations in that area. This is precisely what this order shows; when he forms the command group and Lieutenant Colonel Keserovic is at the head of this command group, and all the units in that area are placed under his command, as is (25)stated in this order.

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(1) THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.]

• Q.: Lieutenant Colonel Keserovic, was he a Drina Corps officer?

• A.: Lieutenant Colonel Keserovic and the whole group, in fact, these (5)were all officers from the Main Staff of the VRS.

• Q.: You said that you can establish a link between this order and the document dated the 11th of July, if I'm not mistaken.

• A.: Yes. This order is related to the order dated 11th of July that I commented upon yesterday. That's the order that clearly assigns tasks to (10)all the units that are listed in the order in which the Chief of the Main Staff, among other things, specifies that the 65th Protective Motorised Regiment is to carry out these tasks in addition to the tasks it had received earlier.

• Q.: Where are the other units?

(15) • A.: The other units are engaged on the front facing Tuzla, Kladanj, and Zivinice, facing Zepa and Gorazde.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Harmon.

MR. HARMON: General Krstic linked Defence Exhibit 109 to an order of the 11th of July. He referenced it being introduced yesterday. I (20)would request that we have an exhibit number so it makes it easier for us to identify the document that is critically linked to Defence Exhibit 109.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. Mr. Petrusic, if it is possible, would you please mention the exhibit number. That is the most (25)convenient way to identify the document. Otherwise, we might get lost.

• Page 6303 • {62/86}

(1) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] The exhibit in question is Exhibit 98, Defence Exhibit 98.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] I don't know whether Exhibit D109 is still on the ELMO.

(5) • Q.: General, these two exhibits, 109 and OTP number 649, as regards their contents, are they identical and were they issued by the same command and by the same individual?

• A.: These documents are identical. They were issued by the same command and by the same individual. (10)With your permission, I would like to add something. In this order, among other things, tasks are being given out to the Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade and the 1st Milici Light Infantry Brigade, which is absurd, because these two units were engaged on the front towards Zepa as part of the Zepa operation.

(15) • Q.: Who did these units receive --

• A.: From this document, one can clearly see that they received their assignments from the Commander of the Main Staff.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, sorry to interrupt you. I'm not sure you have described Exhibit 109. I think that we have (20)already mentioned it, but I don't think that you have actually described that particular exhibit.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Document 109 was issued by the general staff of the VRS, number 3/4-1670, dated 17th of July, 1995. The document was issued by General Ratko Mladic. (25)My question in relation to this document was whether this

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(1)document, in terms of its contents, was identical to the OTP document number 649, and the answer to my question was affirmative.

• Q.: You said that General Zivanovic had taken over the Drina Corps at the time it was established. At the beginning of the Srebrenica (5)operation, was he, de jure and de facto, the Commander of the Drina Corps?

• A.: Yes. General Zivanovic, his duty was that of the Corps Commander.

• Q.: Did he hand over that duty on the 11th of July, 1995?

• A.: No.

• Q.: Did he hand over the duty on the 15th of July when the decree of (10)the then President of Republika Srpska, Radovan Karadzic, arrived --

• A.: No.

• Q.: Let me please finish my question. -- which decree was drafted on the 14th of July and was supposed to enter into force on the 15th of July.

(15) • A.: No.

• Q.: Do you have any knowledge as to the fact that General Zivanovic, from the 11th of July until the 20th and 21st of July, was issuing orders on behalf of the Drina Corps and was actually at the Vlasenica command post or in the area of responsibility of the Drina Corps?

(20) • A.: Yes. General Zivanovic, throughout that time, was at his command post or in the area of responsibility of the Drina Corps carrying out his duty and issuing orders that we have already commented.

• Q.: The reports of the subordinate units at that time, were they addressed to the Vlasenica command post?

(25) • A.: Yes. All of the reports submitted by the subordinate units were

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(1)sent to the Vlasenica command post.

• Q.: Did he know about the events that were taking place in Potocari on the 12th and the 13th of July, 1995?

• A.: Yes. General Zivanovic issued the order about the use of the (5)buses for the evacuation of the civilian population from Potocari. On the 12th of July, after the meeting at the Fontana Hotel in Bratunac had ended, General Zivanovic came to Bratunac. On the 12th of July, his Assistant Commander for Security was also in Bratunac. I'm referring to Lieutenant Colonel Popovic. And at the same time, his Assistant Commander (10)for Logistics was also there in Bratunac.

• Q.: Did General Zivanovic know about what was happening in the area of responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade?

• A.: Yes. On the basis of the reports that he had been receiving from that brigade, General Zivanovic knew or should have known what was going (15)on.

• Q.: Did he know about the fate of the prisoners of war in the area of the Zvornik Brigade?

• A.: I'm not sure about that. On the basis of the reports that I studied later on, one cannot conclude that he knew about that because very (20)little, almost nothing, could be seen from those reports as regards the issue of the prisoners of war.

• Q.: After the takeover of duty between yourself and General Zivanovic, or, rather, between General Zivanovic and yourself, how long did you remain on that duty as the Corps Commander after that?

(25) • A.: After the takeover of duty, that is, after I had taken up the duty

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(1)of the Drina Corps Commander, on that post I remained until the 21st of November, 1995.

• Q.: After the month of November 1995, did you leave the Corps?

• A.: Yes. After that date, that is, after the month of November, I was (5)relieved of my duty as the Drina Corps Commander and sent to the National Defence School in Belgrade.

• Q.: Your deputy, according to establishment, remained there, the Chief of Staff of the Corps?

• A.: Yes, Chief of Staff -- my Chief of Staff stayed behind, who was (10)also the deputy of the Corps Commander.

• Q.: When did you go back to the Corps?

• A.: I didn't go back to the Drina Corps because until that time -- I believe it was until the end of April, late April -- the Corps had already been disbanded as an operational formation. So I returned to the Main (15)Staff of the VRS for further appointment.

• Q.: I didn't hear you, General. When exactly did you go back to the VRS?

• A.: I went back in September in 1996.

• Q.: In an interview which was introduced into evidence in the course (20)of these proceedings, the then President, Mr. Karadzic, said that you yourself --

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, give us the number of the exhibit, please. Do you have it? It is always good to identify the document.

(25) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] At this point, Mr. President, I

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(1)don't remember the number. But let me paraphrase the document. I'm sure that my learned colleagues from the Prosecution can help me.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I think they already have an answer. (5)Yes, Mr. Harmon.

MR. HARMON: It may be Prosecutor's Exhibit 99.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Madam Registrar, do you have the number?

THE REGISTRAR: I was going to add that it was 99, Exhibit 99.

(10) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.]

• Q.: In that exhibit, President Karadzic said in an interview that you had planned the Srebrenica operation and that he had personally approved that operation and signed it, and he emphasises your contribution to that operation and he cites you for your achievements. (15)Did you plan the operation, and did he personally sign the appropriate document for the execution of the operation?

• A.: I place that statement of his in the context of his relationship with General Mladic. President Karadzic was not present when the operation was planned, nor did he plan the operation in question. It is (20)not possible in any army in the world for the Chief of Staff to plan an operation on his own. It is the Commander who issues the decision, and on the basis of that decision, on the basis of his decision, appropriate documents are then made.

• Q.: After you had returned to the VRS, did you at some later point in (25)time take over command of the 5th Corps of the VRS?

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(1) • A.: After I had reported to the Main Staff of the VRS, I was appointed to the post of the Chief of Inspection for Combat Readiness of the VRS. That particular post or organ within the army was only getting organised at the time, was being established, and at the time it wasn't structured (5)in organisational terms as yet. Let me answer your question. During that period of time, the 5th Corps of the VRS didn't yet exist. There were three corps: the 1st Corps, the 3rd Corps, and the 7th Corps. So the former Drina Corps was no longer there, the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps was no longer there, nor the 2nd (10)Krajina Corps.

• Q.: When you were arrested, your duty was that of the Commander of the 5th Corps, you were on that post.

• A.: Yes. Before I took up that particular duty, I was the Chief Inspector for Combat Readiness within the army. I was appointed the (15)Commander of the 5th Corps in April 1998, and while I was on that duty, I was arrested.

• Q.: While carrying out your duties at that post you were in constant contact with representatives of the international forces deployed in the area of the former Bosnia-Herzegovina, or, during that period of time, in (20)1998, in the territory of the Republika Srpska.

• A.: Yes. After I had taken over as Commander of the 5th Corps of the VRS, I contributed as best as I could to the implementation of the peace accords in those parts relating to the army. And to that effect I had contact with all levels of command of the United Nations' forces in the (25)territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina, the focus being on the contacts with the

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(1)Command of the north division in Tuzla and the Command of the south-eastern division which was located in Mostar. I had many contacts with them, both in the area of responsibility of my Corps or in the territory of the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina (5)where I travelled, to places such as Tuzla, Orasje, Sarajevo, and Mostar.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, the Defence should like to suggest a break at this point.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. I hope that ten minutes will be enough.

(10) --- Recess taken at 2.17 p.m.

--- On resuming at 2.28 p.m.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So, Mr. Petrusic, let us try and finish roughly at ten to three so that we can have a small Status Conference then. You have the floor.

(15) THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Petrusic. Microphone, please.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.]

• Q.: General, in your contacts with representatives of the United Nations' forces, you were constantly on the move, travelling through the (20)territory of the Federation of Bosnia-Herzegovina.

• A.: I travelled most frequently escorted by SFOR vehicles, but there were cases when I was travelling alone, on the way there or coming back, when visiting a location in the Federation. Let me give you just one example. During the hand-over of duty of (25)the Commander of Division North in Tuzla between General Ellis and General

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(1)Brns, and General Sinseki took charge of this hand-over procedure, when all of it was over, I travelled in my own vehicle from Tuzla through the territory of the Federation towards Sokolac. So I travelled from Tuzla via Kalesija and also to Sekovici and Sokolac without any fear or a (5)feeling of any kind of responsibility for these things that had happened during the war. I never gave those matters a thought because my conscience was quite clear.

• Q.: In these proceedings so far, we have heard reference made many times to the Zvornik and Bratunac Brigades and their Commanders, (10)Lieutenant-Colonel Pandurevic and Colonel Blagojevic. On the basis of your knowledge and everything you know about them, do you, as their superior officer at the time, hold them responsible, as their superior officer?

• A.: I was the superior officer to Colonel Blagojevic, even while I was (15)the Chief of Staff of the Drina Corps for a certain time, because he was the Chief of Engineers in the Command of the Drina Corps. From that position, Colonel Blagojevic became Commander of the Bratunac Brigade because the Corps Commander decided to replace Colonel Ognjenovic in that position. And I can say freely that (20)Colonel Blagojevic is the personification of not only a Serb officer but the personification of a good officer in any army. He is an epitome of an officer. He is a good example of the way in which an officer needs to do his duty as a professional soldier, and I am confident that Colonel Blagojevic would never have allowed, in the first place because of (25)his own image and also because of that of his subordinates, for anything

• Page 6312 • {71/86}

(1)to be done in his area of responsibility which would constitute a gross violation not only of the Geneva Conventions but of all our own normative provisions and rules with respect to the treatment of prisoners of war. I said in his own area of responsibility. And I am quite sure that if he (5)was in a position to know or to do something, he would have prevented any such thing being done in another area of responsible. As for Lieutenant-Colonel Pandurevic, Vinko, all I can say is that he was the best Brigade Commander in the Drina Corps, one of the best commanders among his peers in the army as a whole, a professional soldier (10)in every sense of the word, and all that I have said in reference to Colonel Blagojevic also applies to Pandurevic. I am quite certain that Colonel Vinko Pandurevic, after the 28th Division made a breakthrough towards his area, that he would have taken every possible step not to allow the things to happen that did happen in his area. (15)He found himself in a situation that he didn't expect when he had so many prisoners of war, and then in a report, he asks, in fact, "Who was it who brought so many prisoners of war to my brigade?" And everything that happened in the area of responsibility of his brigade, in view of the fact that he was in Zepa when they were being transferred from various (20)locations, from the direction of Nova Kasaba, Konjevic Polje, Kravica, Bratunac, that he would have, in one way or another, prevented what had happened there, so that when he returned, he focused on combat operations on the front lines against the forces of the 28th Division and also when an offensive was launched from Tuzla to link up with the forces of the (25)28th Division.

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(1) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, the Defence would now request a private session, please.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] For ten minutes.
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(15) [Open session]

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I see we are in public session already, so let's go on to another matter now, and that is we will have a brief Status Conference. There are two issues that I should like to address as succinctly as possible. One is the problem of translation of (20)Defence documents, and the second issue is the question of timetable. Regarding the first, I think that we gave some instructions with the request that we hear from the Prosecutor, from Mr. Harmon, what are the priorities for translation so that they may prepare for the cross-examination. On the other hand, I think we also have to take stock (25)as to where we stand with relation to the question of translation in

• Page 6318 • {77/86}

(1)general. I don't know whether Mr. Visnjic or Mr. Harmon wish to begin. Mr. Visnjic? In any event, before giving you the floor, Mr. Visnjic, I think (5)Mr. Harmon raised the question of certification of translation. It's not a question of stamping those translations to show whether they're good or not. If there are mistakes in the translations, it is not a seal that will resolve the problem. So I wish to add that point to the debate. Either we're going to have completely new translations, which will have (10)very serious consequences for the proceedings, or we'll adopt another procedure to review and revise the translations that have already been made, and I think this would help us. Mr. Visnjic.

MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I wish to notify the (15)Trial Chamber that in the meantime, Ms. Tanja Radosavljevic and Ms. Keith have listed the exhibits which are identical or very similar, that is, Defence and Prosecution exhibits and that were already translated as Prosecution exhibits, so that we have removed one set of problems regarding translation. (20)As for the second matter, whether all documents should be retranslated or corrected, I must say on this occasion that the Defence was extremely short of time as we only had a few days available for the translation of documents and, unfortunately, the situation in Belgrade was such that there was a general strike on and this didn't help us any. We (25)managed to get together a group of translators but of different

• Page 6319 • {78/86}

(1)standards. Now, if the Prosecution does not mind, we are at their disposal to deal with any questions that they may have without engaging the translation section. We have mostly noticed that these errors relate to (5)names of brigades, the signatories of these documents, and things like that. So we could do that together. I have been informed that we have received a certain number of documents which we have now and which we are reviewing, and we will serve them on the Prosecution immediately after this Status Conference. (10)Out of a total of -- no. I'm sorry. Up to now, 74 documents have been translated. Thirty-three remained untranslated until the beginning of this session, and I think that in the meantime, that number has been reduced because we have received some translations in the meantime. So any request that Mr. Harmon may have to speed up proceedings (15)and if we can assist him, we are at his disposal. We will gladly do so. Thank you.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon.

MR. HARMON: Your Honour, we, first of all, attempted to prioritise the documents that we thought were the most important (20)documents, and I identified those as the documents from the army of the Republika Srpska. That's the set that we think should be accurately translated. I understand that of that body of documents, nine are documents that we have already translated or the CLSS has already translated. Mr. Visnjic is correct. That removes that set of documents. (25)However, the remaining set of documents need to be accurately translated,

• Page 6320 • {79/86}

(1)and I am in the position where I don't have them and can only rely on the good offices of the CLSS to furnish me with sets of documents before I can analyse them properly and conduct the cross-examination. So I understand that the Registrar's office has submitted those remaining set of documents (5)to CLSS, and I'm merely waiting for a report back from either the registrar or receipt of the documents that need to be translated.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So the question before us is, and we find ourselves in a rather extraordinary situation: Either we suspend the hearings until we have all the documents in translation or we (10)try to encourage cooperation to guarantee equality and the possibility of us continuing the proceedings. I think that we are all aware that it is frequently necessary to do many things which are not, strictly speaking, our own duty. Let me tell you, I do many of those things myself simply to speed things up. (15)So it is in that light that perhaps we might suggest - we cannot order, of course - request, appeal, to someone to invest some additional effort so as to help us move forward. It is in that context that I should like to ask Madam Registrar whether she can tell us what measures have been taken to deal with the (20)problem, knowing that it is not, strictly speaking, your duty.

THE REGISTRAR: Mr. President, I have spoken with translation, and they said that they would try their best to make the corrections. However, I have not had the opportunity today to speak with them. So it would be after this session that I would know more information.

(25) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Let's go on to the

• Page 6321 • {80/86}

(1)second point, being brief, of course, having to do with the timetable. As you know, our philosophy is that the timetable is our tool and we need to adjust it to circumstances. I think that we're a bit behind in our forecasts even regarding General Krstic's testimony. (5)I'm not trying to interfere, however, but maybe we can already envisage that at the end of this session, at the end of this three-week period, there may be witnesses here present in the Tribunal, and because of the breaks that we have to make, there is a risk of them having to go back to their place of residence without being heard; and I wish to do (10)everything to prevent that. So what I would like to suggest: We will keep the week -- the week from the 5th or the 6th, I don't know, Monday, the 5th of November, and we are inclined to keep at least one, two, or three days for hearing those witnesses so as to avoid them having to come back, without having (15)heard them. So I think that suits everyone, the witnesses whom we have to respect and also the Tribunal itself, because after all we don't have to bring people and then send them back and have to bring them back again because we haven't heard them. If we take that into account, it would be in the interests of the (20)Chamber not to sit on the 3rd of November. But I know that the Defence requested a period of time between the two blocks of hearings. If we reach a point when we have to work during the week of the 5th of November to avoid having witnesses going home without being heard, I would suggest that we have Tuesday, which I think is the 7th, Wednesday, (25)the 8th, Thursday, the 9th, and I think Friday the 10th. So I am talking

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(1)off the bat; I don't have the calendar in front of me. In that way we need not sit on Friday, the 3rd of November. We can make up for that the following week and at the same time guarantee that all witnesses here present will, indeed, be heard. (5)That is a suggestion having to do with the organisation of the Defence, so that is why I should like to hear them first.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, the first working day -- our next working day, within an hour or an hour and a half we will have completed our examination-in-chief, and as far as we have been (10)informed by Mr. Harmon, their cross-examination would ensue and last, I think he said, three days; so that would bring us to next Friday as the last day of their cross. We do have witnesses planned and they are about to come, and we will do everything to bring them over in the third week as originally planned. (15)But I have a question: If we come to the conclusion that on the 3rd of November, Friday, the 3rd of November, we might complete all witnesses, and of course we would inform you of the same in advance, in that case, could we have that day as a working day; or would that Friday, the 3rd of November, be a free day and we would have to resume on Monday (20)or Tuesday the following week?

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. The question, Mr. Petrusic, to be more precise, is regarding the 3rd of November. Independently of this discussion, that applies to me personally only. My colleagues would be available. If the parties accept to have a hearing (25)with my colleagues and in my absence, no problem; if not, we would not sit

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(1)on the 3rd and would go on to the following week to make up for this day, and also have the possibility of hearing witnesses which perhaps had not been heard the previous week. There's always the problem of having a delay or lagging behind the timetable, because I wouldn't like a single (5)witness to have to go back home without being heard. So as we're a little late already, such a situation may arise. And as I tell you quite frankly, it would suit me not to sit on the 3rd of November. But my colleagues are available.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Of course we will miss you a great (10)deal, but we don't mind going on, continuing with the hearings. That is the position of the Defence, that we could continue. I don't know what the position of the Prosecution is, of course.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Mr. Harmon, please. He is going to say that he will not pressure me.

(15) MR. HARMON: I have two answers. The first is we have no objection to sitting with two Judges on the 3rd of November. We have done that in the past in other cases, and we accept that in this case as well. In respect of how long the cross-examination will last, I don't want to put us in a box. We will conduct the cross-examination with all (20)due diligence and speed, but I'm not absolutely confident that it will end on Friday. It could well go over until Monday.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Can we conclude then that regarding the question of translation, the parties, according to a suggestion from Mr. Visnjic, will get together to make a balance of what (25)remains to be done, and Mr. Fourmy can be of assistance if necessary, and

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(1)we will sit on the 3rd of November but without me. Mr. Fourmy, are you available to help with this question of translation?

MR. FOURMY: [Int.] Yes. I will be here on Monday but (5)not on Tuesday, as you know.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Mr. Harmon.

MR. HARMON: The issue of translations I don't want to leave totally at the responsibility of the Office of the Prosecutor because we have cross-examination to prepare, and sitting down and doing proper (10)translations of documents is a burden that is, I don't think, completely fair to the Office of the Prosecutor. It is my hope that the CLSS will indeed provide us with complete translations before we are obligated to commence our cross-examination. I need a report from them. How many of the documents they will complete and which ones they will not complete so (15)I can then take steps that I need to do to resolve the problem. There are two sets of documents. There are sets of documents that the Defence has, through their own good offices, attempted to have translated properly that may contain inaccuracies and there is another set of documents that have not been translated at all. And quite frankly, for (20)the Office of the Prosecutor to have to sit down over the next few days and worry about the translation of documents that have been tendered by the Defence seems to me to be something that is unnecessary. It seems to me that the Language Service Section, they do extraordinary work, I, frankly, think that they're overworked and they don't have sufficient (25)resources to provide all of the documents that are necessary, but we're in

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(1)the middle of a trial and we're about to start a very critical part of this trial, cross-examination of the accused who has tendered documents, and it seems to me that there is a priority in this case. The priority is that these documents need to be available to the Office of the Prosecutor (5)as soon as possible but before the cross-examination of General Krstic, and the Office of the Prosecutor should not be put in a position where it has to do work in addition to the very important work of preparing for the cross-examination. So in my view, I would again request of the Chamber that there be (10)an order issued that those documents that have been prioritised, there's a limited set, that they be translated and provided to the Office of the Prosecutor before the commencement of the cross-examination of General Krstic. I don't see any other way that we can effectively do our work.

(15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Harmon. I quite understand. I agree with you. I cannot interfere with these things either. Either we continue the discussion, but we have no more time, or, and that was my idea, that the parties can get together with the legal (20)officer of the Chamber to take stock of the situation and establish priorities and then organise the possibility for the CLSS to respond. And there's also another idea. The Chamber would never agree to the Prosecutor starting the cross-examination without having everything it needs to do so. So the Chamber is ready to do everything it can to that (25)end. So we're fully aware of that, but we're just trying to find a

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(1)solution which would not prejudice the Prosecutor, and that is why we have tried to strike a balance. So I think the practical way to proceed would be to have a meeting between the Defence and the Prosecutor, with the assistance of the legal (5)officer, and afterwards establish the priorities for the translation service.

MR. HARMON: And, Mr. President, after we do that and after we establish the priorities, the next question is will the Language Service Section do the translations that are necessary and give them back to the (10)Office of the Prosecutor prior to the commencement of the cross-examination, because that's the only way that we can work effectively.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Madam Registrar.

THE REGISTRAR: I am deeply aware of the situation, and I have (15)rendered -- the registrar has rendered help in trying to expedite the translations of these documents. I'd first like to say that with regards to the documents that were submitted yesterday for corrections, I will be talking with translation after this hearing to see what documents could be done and how long it (20)will take. That is where we stand right now. As I mentioned previously, there was no time in the interim to find out. But I was want to make it clear that the position of the registrar is to be of assistance when it's possible, but we cannot take on the role of preparing for either the Prosecution or the Defence. To that end, if (25)help is needed from us with the translation of documents and working with

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(1)CLSS, I would also like to have some oral order or written order that mentions the same thing as Mr. Harmon said, to have these documents done for cross-examination.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Have you finished, Mr. Harmon?

(5) MR. HARMON: Yes, I have, Mr. President.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Fine then. I leave it there. I think that is the only way for us to try and avoid any suspension of the proceedings. So the parties will meet with the mediation of the legal officer and then you will see what needs to be done, whether an order need (10)to be issued, whether a request needs to be made, whether we need to appeal to them. We will see, and we will have a realistic idea of the situation. That is my advice to the parties. But we must conclude for today and thank all the personnel who stayed longer than planned. Have a good weekend.

(15) --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.18 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 25th day of October, 2000 at 9.20 a.m.