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/ Colormap • Page 7426 • {1/113} (1)Tuesday, 21 November 2000 [Open session] --- Upon commencing at 9.20 a.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, ladies and (5)gentlemen, the technical booth, the interpreters; good morning to the Office of the Prosecution and Defence counsel. I cannot say good morning this morning to General Krstic, but I think we have a written authorisation to continue the proceedings without his presence. Is that correct, Mr. Petrusic? (10) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours, colleagues of the Prosecution. I have been informed that in the course of last week or, rather, on Friday, that the Registrar received -- that the Registrar sent out a request and General Krstic said that he was willing to allow the (15)proceedings to proceed without his presence today, and of course as we know, the reasons for his absence are medical reasons. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] We haven't got a written declaration then, have we? MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] His written declaration does exist (20)and is probably with the Registry Office of this Tribunal, with the Registrar. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I can see that Madam Registrar has her microphone switched on to take the floor and bring us up to date. Please go ahead. (25)
THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Your Honour. We already have a copy of this
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Mr. Petrusic, please proceed. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, the Defence will (5)continue its examination of the next witness. But before the witness enters court, the Defence would like to move into private session and will be giving its reasons for that.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Let us move into private
session, then.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, please proceed. (20) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] • Q.: Bearing in mind your education and training and that you are a university graduate, can you tell us what knowledge, that is to say, what skills and education that faculty provides?
• A.: Well, the name of the faculty speaks for itself. It is the
(25)Faculty for Political Science, the National Defence Department.
• A.: Yes, I will try. As I said, I graduated from the Faculty of (5)Political Science, the Total National Defence Department. The word itself, "Total National Defence," speaks about the concept and Doctrine of All People's Defence in the then Yugoslavia, because the sociopolitical system as a system was one which functioned with this concept of total national defence in the case of an aggression against the former Socialist (10)Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. At the faculty I gained knowledge about the concept and doctrine of national defence, and the faculty is fairly similar to the kind of knowledge you gain at military academies. In addition to the professional, tactical, and strategical composition, at my faculty we tend (15)to focus on ... • Q.: Yes. Please continue but slow down. • A.: In studying the concept of total national defence, we look at all segments of society, the civilian structures and the organisation of total national defence for the whole area of the former Yugoslavia. I received (20)the title of Professor of Total National Defence and received the rank of lieutenant in the reserve formations, which implies serving one's military duty in case of an aggression against the former Yugoslavia. And I had my wartime assignment in my original unit, like everybody else, all the other citizens of the country we lived in. (25)
• Q.: I assume that during your education and training you became
• A.: Yes, I underwent infantry training in the Marshal Tito Centre of Military Schools in Sarajevo, and I was trained in tactical training and (5)marksmanship on the training grounds of Sarajevo, to the third level. I got to know all the weapons, how they were used, and what they were intended for. • Q.: After you completed your education and schooling, you received your wartime assignment, you said, and you were sent to a certain unit. (10)How did that function according to the rules and regulations of Territorial Defence that were effective in the former JNA? Could you tell us something about that? That's right, that's what you did. • A.: Yes. • Q.: When you completed your education, did you start work in your (15)profession? • A.: Yes, I did. I was employed in the municipality of Sokolac, attached to the municipal staff of the Territorial Defence of Sokolac, and I worked there up until 1990. Later on, because of my family situation, I went back to my native village where I did some other work that had (20)nothing to do with my professional training and rank. • Q.: And while you worked in the Territorial Defence, could you tell us specifically what your work was there? • A.: I worked in the staff, in the Operations Department.
• Q.: After you stopped working in the Territorial Defence Department
(25)and when you went back home to your native village, you continued to have
• A.: Yes. • Q.: The start of the war in Bosnia-Herzegovina or, rather, in the area you lived in, where did it find you? (5) • A.: Well, when the war broke out, I was in the village of Sokolovici, near Sokolac, and that was in 1992. I received a call-up for mobilisation and I reported to the first wartime unit, according to my wartime assignment. That was the Romanija detachment. Later on, on the 21st of May, the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade was established, and I worked in (10)that formation until the end of the war. • Q.: So after you received your wartime assignment or, rather, after you reported, the 2nd Romanija Brigade had not yet been established; is that right? • A.: Well, those were the -- it was a fledgling organisation, its just (15)being organised. But very quickly -- it was formed very quickly later on. The wartime unit in the region was formed very quickly after that. • Q.: Witness D/C, tell us, please, what your concrete task was and job was in the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade? What did you actually do?
• A.: I started working in the Department for Moral Guidance and
(20)Religious Affairs, and this department was set up to inform the people,
officers and soldiers, of the situation in which the Serbian people found
themselves. This type of information involved informing the populous of
the -- of what was going on around them. We saw that the people were
motivated for their wartime assignments, for carrying out their combat
(25)activities, and we saw to relations between the units, that general
• Q.: Did every unit, that is to say -- let me rephrase that question. (5)Was your work at the level of the command of the 2nd Romanija Brigade, or did your work involve lower levels, if I can use that term, the level of the brigades? • A.: Yes, it was at the level of the brigade commands, and it went down the ladder, down the chain of command, within the frameworks of the (10)brigade. I worked in the 1st Motorised Battalion of the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade which was at the defence lines at Olovo and Kladanj. • Q.: So you performed those duties, as far as I was able to understand, until 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995. • A.: Yes, up to 1995, up to March of that year. (15) • Q.: Let us now move on to the events that took place at the beginning of July 1995. Tell us, please, where you were at the time and whether you continued to do the same work you were doing prior to that. • A.: I did do the same work, but from the 1st Motorised Battalion, I returned to the command of the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade and I worked (20)in the same Department for Moral Guidance, Information, and Religious Affairs. And sometime at the beginning of July, my unit received orders to take part in the Srebrenica operation. • Q.: Are you acquainted with the plan of that operation and its goals, the operation Srebrenica? (25)
• A.: Yes, the Commander informed us about that, and I think the main
• Q.: As you have broached that subject, you are talking about the attacks and skirmishes that took place although Srebrenica was in the other zone; that is to say, another brigade covered that area. But to (10)quote an example, that kind of reporting, should it have been -- was that your job? • A.: I did not understand your question. Could you repeat that, please? What do you mean, reporting? • Q.: I mean the job you were doing, your duties. (15) • A.: Yes. • Q.: And you said that from the safe area there were skirmishes by the Muslim forces of the 28th Division, that is. So within the frameworks of your work -- • A.: Oh, I see, yes. It was up to the Information Service, Information (20)Department, to inform the soldiers and their commanding officers realistically of what was going on around Srebrenica for them to gain a proper insight into what was actually going on, realistic information, because the information media put out quite different information. • Q.: Which information media do you mean? (25)
• A.: The Muslim information media, those belonging to the Muslim
• Q.: So in listening to that information media and the information that you got, you were there to actually say the -- to tell the actual state of affairs, what actually existed, give a realistic view. (5)Could you tell us when you started out on your assignment? • A.: We started on the 4th and 5th of July, 1995, and we arrived in the Zeleni Jadar area and we set up camp around the village of Jasenova, that region there. And that facility is to the south of the urban area of Srebrenica, urban conglomerate. (10) • Q.: So your unit moved off from that region towards Srebrenica; is that right? • A.: Yes. We started out. Nothing happened on the first two days. I think that combat activities actually started on the 6th and 7th, perhaps even the 8th of July. And my unit was assigned the task of taking up (15)position at a feature called Alibegovac. That is a broader region, and it is called -- the region is called Alibegovac. We arrived at the Alibegovac position on the 10th of July, and that is where we stopped because we were ordered not to enter Srebrenica but just to narrow down the enclave, to make it easier to defend the surrounding Serbian (20)villages. • Q.: Did you see that order that you have just referred to?
• A.: Yes. The Commander explained the order to us, and it said to
secure this area from combat activities, and this means the morale of the
soldiers as well, their psychological capacitation for that operation,
(25)and that was my duty. I had to explain to the soldiers and to their
• Q.: In the course of these combat operations, did you, in fact, comply with the order, act on it? (5) • A.: Yes, I did, because -- that is to say, we had our direction of movement. There was no resistance from Muslim forces, so that we took control of that feature fairly easily. • Q.: You said that you captured that feature on the 10th of July, and you stated with some certainty that date as opposed to the beginning, when (10)you were not quite sure whether it was the 6th or the 7th that the operation started. So tell us, why is it that you remember the 10th of July so well for you to be able to tell us? • A.: I remember it because on the 11th of July, we already entered the urban area of Srebrenica, which means that Srebrenica, in military terms, (15)had been liberated. • Q.: You were in the command of the 2nd Romanija Brigade. Do you know who was in charge of the Operation Krivaja 95, as it was code-named? • A.: Krivaja 95 was under the command of General Radislav Krstic, but the forward command post in Pribicevac, he was there and we received his (20)commands until the 10th of July, when Alibegovac fell. However, as I was in the command, I was able to hear the orders issued by the Commander to the unit. Once we had captured this feature, Alibegovac, I can't remember whether I ever heard him on the line, but he did not issue us orders. We received direct orders from General Ratko Mladic from there on. (25)
• Q.: Are you quite sure --
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] • Q.: So a general question: You are a member of the 2nd Romanija (10)Motorised Brigade. Who was the Commander of that brigade? • A.: The Commander was Colonel Mirko Trivic. • Q.: And when you are referring to the Commander, when you have been using the term "commander" so far, did that refer to Colonel Mirko Trivic? • A.: Yes, exclusively I was referring to Colonel Mirko Trivic. (15) • Q.: So you mean he was your Commander until the 10th of July, and he received orders until the 10th of July from General Krstic. So I'm just going over what you have already said. So from the 10th of July onwards, your Commander, Mirko Trivic, received his commands from General Ratko Mladic; is that correct? (20) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Witness D/C, are you sure that you heard that on the 10th of July, commands were issued to Mirko Trivic by General Ratko Mladic? • A.: Yes, I heard it. I was there. • Q.: Was that command issued over the so-called Motorola? (25)
• A.: Several types of communications equipment were used.
• A.: Yes. • Q.: Did you hear Krstic on the lines issuing orders? (5) • A.: No. I do not recollect him issuing orders. There may have been a conversation but no concrete orders. • Q.: You said that Srebrenica fell on the 11th of July. Your unit, the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade, did it enter the town of Srebrenica? • A.: The 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade did not enter the town because, (10)as ordered, it remained at Bojna, the village of Bojna, to the left of Srebrenica. Only the command members entered the town. • Q.: Can you tell us who were the members of the command? Were you among them? • A.: Yes, I was. There was the Brigade Commander, Colonel Trivic; then (15)the logistics officer -- do I need to give his name? Captain Dalivoji Podrevic, the Communications Company Commander, Milan Stanic, several communications signalsmen, and the escort of the Commander. • Q.: Was the Commander of one of the battalions there? • A.: Yes. Also the Battalion Commander, Major Ljubomir Eric. (20) • Q.: And yourself? • A.: Yes. • Q.: In these proceedings, Witness D/C -- let me rephrase that question for a moment. You passed through Slapovici.
• A.: Yes. I passed through the refugee camp, as it was called in those
(25)days, several times. It was a settlement with 1.000, maybe up to 2.000
(5) • Q.: We have heard here that Slapovici was set on fire and shelled, so my question has to do with that. Was Slapovici burned down partially or totally, just a few buildings or the whole settlement? Can you tell us more about it? • A.: No, no, that is not true. Slapovici was not touched, not by a (10)single soldier. On the 13th of July, in the morning, I went via Jasenova, Slapovici, Srebrenica, and until that day, it was intact. Troops just went past this settlement. • Q.: Witness D/C, in the introductory part of your testimony, you said that you are acquainted with weapons and artillery pieces that the former (15)JNA had at its disposal, as well as the army of Republika Srpska. In the course of these proceedings, we have heard that an exceptionally large number of shells was fired at the town of Srebrenica itself and its environs, and even on the column of refugees moving from Srebrenica towards Potocari. And since you said that you yourself were in the town (20)of Srebrenica, tell us, please, whether the town of Srebrenica was damaged, and generally, during your stay in the area, did you hear or see artillery weapons being fired?
• A.: There was some fire from artillery weapons but very little. The
fire was targeted at fortified Muslim positions. There was no need to do
(25)that. The town of Srebrenica was not shelled at all. Not a single shell
• Q.: We have heard here that within a span of several hours, 200 shells were fired; would you agree with that? (5) • A.: No, no. I said that there was some artillery fire but of very limited extent, and it was mostly targeted at Muslim bunkers. But there wasn't any real need because the resistance that they put up did not require artillery action. • Q.: When you entered Srebrenica on the 11th of July, did you find (10)civilians or soldiers or the inhabitants of Srebrenica there? • A.: No, no. They had already left, I think, to the region of Potocari village. On the street I saw two dead men who were probably killed by small arms' fire, and we also saw a woman whose throat had been slit. We didn't know who it was. Then her brother came and told us that it was a (15)Serb woman who had stayed to live there during the war, and if it hadn't been for him, we wouldn't have known the identity of that woman. • Q.: In the course of your stay in that area, did you have any contact with soldiers or representatives of UNPROFOR who were protecting the safe area? (20)
• A.: Yes. One occasion we had contact with them. This was prior to
the fall of the Alibegovac feature. That day we saw two APCs of the Dutch
Battalion heading towards the Muslims, along a macadam road. The Muslims
opened fire at them, and we saw that. And we saw that one soldier was
wounded. Actually, we thought that he had been wounded, but later we
(25)learnt that he had been killed.
• Q.: How were they treated? • A.: Well, nothing special. We had some beer. It was quite warm. I offered them beer. They were glad to drink it because for a long time they had been living in the enclave outside the urban area, so that beer (15)was rare. They were quite young. We exchanged greetings. They may have been 18 or 20 years old. I didn't really pay any special attention to them. Nobody mistreated them, as far as I was able to see, and they were simply escorted out. • Q.: Did they leave on their APCs? (20) • A.: I think so, but -- how else? The only thing I'm not sure about was whether they were escorted. Probably they were, because there were some other activities ongoing. There were reports we were working on, so I didn't have much time to pay attention to them.
• Q.: You entered the town of Srebrenica on the 11th, in the afternoon,
(25)together with the commanding officers you have mentioned. Where did you
• A.: We entered Srebrenica in the afternoon. Then we went -- the members of the command returned to the Jasenova camp, and my unit stayed in the village of Bojna, the Bojna feature, close to Srebrenica. (5) • Q.: But Jasenova is where your headquarters was. • A.: Yes, it was the headquarters and the camp, as we call it. • Q.: On the 12th of July, where was your unit?
• A.: On the 12th of July, when Srebrenica had fallen militarily, the
unit was to assemble in the region of Viogora close to the Suceska
(10)village. That day we were tasked to search the terrain at the same time.
So we followed the macadam road going from Mount Jahorina and we were to
assemble at Viogora. However, from Srebrenica to Jahorina, it is about 10
to 12 kilometres, and it is highly inaccessible, so we moved on foot. On
the road we didn't come across anyone, refugees or anyone else. We just
(15)walked across that area, searching the terrain. This was completed late
in the evening, and there was no time for the unit to assemble and line up
in the Viogora region. So we returned to camp, and the next day in the
morning, my unit, together with the others, was assembled and lined up in
the Viogora region. I did not attend the line-up because the command of
(20)the brigade was assigned the task to take the unit to Zepa. At the time I
didn't really know what the order was and what the assignment of the unit
would be, nor what we would be doing up there.
So that on the 13th of July, in the morning, together with the
Commander, Colonel Trivic, and the Commander of the Communications
(25)Company, I headed towards Zepa, the Zepa area, where our task was to set
(5) • Q.: Just a moment, please. Let us go back to the 12th or, rather, the 11th and the 12th of July. So on the 11th of July you left Srebrenica, and on the 12th and the 13th of July, did you at all see General Krstic? • A.: I saw General Krstic only on the 11th of July when we arrived in town. General Ratko Mladic came, also General Zivanovic, and then a (10)little after them, probably because he had difficulty walking, General Krstic came, and I didn't see him again until the 13th, in the Zepa area. • Q.: So you, Colonel Trivic, and you just said the signalsman, you headed from Jasenova on the 13th, towards Bratunac. You passed through Srebrenica, Potocari, to reach Bratunac. Tell us, what did you see in (15)Potocari? • A.: I think it was the UNPROFOR compound there. We saw a large number of women, men, and children, troops, members of the Dutch Battalion in camouflage uniforms; also people wearing civilian police uniforms. There was a large crowd of people. I didn't recognise anyone, at least not any (20)of the senior officers of the Drina Corps that I knew at the time. And it was hard to pass through in a vehicle. We went through very slowly and we continued on the road to Bratunac. • Q.: What you were able to see, that is, men, women, and children, were they mixed together or were they separated? (25)
• A.: They were not separated. They were all together.
• A.: After Bratunac, we headed towards the Zepa area. The Commander, Mirko Trivic, was picked up by a command passenger vehicle which was to take him there, and the Commander of the Communications Unit was told to (5)take the vehicle and to take me as well. So we drove from Bratunac via Kravica, Konjevic Polje, Nova Kasaba, Milici, Vlasenica, and the Zepa area, specifically the area of Pod Plane. • Q.: Along the road from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje, did you come across troops, the police, convoys? Describe to us this trip. (10)
• A.: Along the road I did see all that you have mentioned. We caught
up with a convoy that was driving Muslim refugees. It was a convoy of
buses and trucks. I think that it is in the broader area of the village
of Kravica. From the hills Muslim soldiers were firing and going in the
direction of the road that we were on, as well as the convoy.
(15)On the other side of the road, soldiers, policemen, I saw people
wearing olive-grey uniforms, as well as blue camouflage uniforms, were
resisting. We started to overtake the convoy, though it was difficult to
do. It was quite a risky trip; our lives were in danger. As the buses
were higher than our vehicle, I couldn't see inside, who the people inside
(20)were. But several trucks -- in several trucks I could see that there were
men, women, and children inside, as the trucks were not covered by canvas,
they were open.
The Muslim soldiers split up. There were a lot of them and they
were quite close to the road. And they were firing at the convoy and the
(25)soldiers who were resisting. However, our aim was to get through as
• Q.: We hear now for the first time that in the broader area of Kravica, that there were Muslim troops from the hills that had split up (5)into small groups and that were firing at soldiers along the road, the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road. Are you quite sure that they were Muslim soldiers or, rather, that that happened? • A.: Yes, I am quite sure of that because I was passing through and we were trying to get through as quickly as possible to save our lives. (10)There were very many soldiers. One could see it quite easily from the car. They were maybe 300, 400 metres from the road, and the distance between each one of them was 50 to 100 metres, the soldiers that were shooting. Our soldiers were lying down in a trench along the road. The fighting was going on and the convoy was passing through. (15) • Q.: You passed through Nova Kasaba. In Nova Kasaba there is a football pitch. Do you know that? • A.: No, I don't know. • Q.: Along the road, in Nova Kasaba, did you see Muslim prisoners? • A.: No. After that convoy, we didn't see any larger group of people, (20)be they prisoners or soldiers or anything. • Q.: Could you please try and remember what time it could have been when you passed through Nova Kasaba? • A.: Well, it was in the morning, maybe before noon, because we reached close to Zepa around 2.00 in the afternoon. (25)
• Q.: So you reached the Pod Plane area on the 13th, at about 2.00 p.m.
• A.: No, not that day. That day the units assembled; they arrived in the evening. It was still visible; I can't remember what time it was. Anyway, on the 14th of July, the operations started. There was (5)reconnaissance by subordinate units, deployment, and actual combat was beginning. • Q.: And you stayed until the end of the combat operations around Zepa. • A.: Yes. I stayed on until the 2nd of August. (10) • Q.: In that period of time, were you able to listen to communications among Commanders, that is, between your Commander and his Superior Command? • A.: Yes, I did have occasion to hear because we did listen to those conversations. (15) • Q.: Who was in command of the Zepa operation? • A.: General Krstic was in command of the Zepa operation. • Q.: He issued direct orders to your Commander, Colonel Trivic? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Witness D/C, preparing for your testimony, you told me so my (20)question is: What do you know about the fact that when Zepa fell some technical equipment was seized, which included some documentation of the Zepa Brigade and the 28th Division?
• A.: Yes, I heard about that. I think that this was found in a school
or something. I can't remember. It was a computer, actually, and some
(25)diskettes. There were rumours about that. I don't know what happened
• Q.: Tell us, please, among the command staff of your Superior Command, (5)did you see any of them at Zepa? • A.: I would see General Krstic most often. I also saw General Ratko Mladic. I saw some other senior officers from the Main Staff, as it was called then. Do I need to enumerate the names? • Q.: Yes, please. Tell us who you saw. (10) • A.: I saw Colonel Beara, Tolimir, officers from the Drina Corps who were with General Krstic, Colonel Vicic. Maybe if I would think a little harder I would remember some more names. • Q.: So you saw Colonel Vicic with General Krstic. • A.: Yes. I knew him from before, because he was my Commander at the (15)school in Sarajevo so that I knew him well. • Q.: Witness D/C, tell us, during the time of the combat operations towards Zepa, do you know which position, by establishment, was held by General Krstic and the Drina Corps?
• A.: General Krstic was first the Commander of the 2nd Romanija
(20)Motorised Brigade, later he became Chief of Staff of the Drina Corps, and
he held that position until, I think, the 20th of July.
On the 20th of July, 1995, when the Commander of the Corps
hitherto, General Zivanovic, retired, and by decree of the President of
the Republic, he became the Commander of the Drina Corps. So this
(25)occurred around the 20th. We were informed around the 20th, while the
• Q.: So around the 20th you were informed that General Krstic had taken over command over the Drina Corps. • A.: Yes. (5) • Q.: Witness D/C, from 1992 you were with General Krstic, I could put it that way, because he was your Commander of the brigade; then later on in July 1995, you were with him again in the Zepa and Srebrenica operations, so I assume that you know General Krstic well. So I would like to ask you whether you can tell us something about him as a (10)Commander, as a personality, though in the army it is difficult to separate the two.
• A.: Yes, I can say quite a lot about General Krstic as a person, but
primarily as a Commanding Officer. General Krstic was my Brigade
Commander for some time, and later on, when he became Chief of Staff of
(15)the Drina Corps, we frequently had contact with him because my unit, the
2nd Romanija Brigade, was part of the Drina Corps.
When he took up duty as Brigade Commander, General Krstic was
Lieutenant Colonel. He formed and organised the 2nd Romanija Brigade in
such a way that I think it could not compare -- there was no other unit
(20)that could compare with it because everything functioned perfectly in the
unit, though it was quite a large unit by establishment.
We all came to know him and to love him, I must say, primarily
because of his character, his behaviour as a military man, the way he
treated his subordinates, the civilian population, his superiors, captured
(25)Muslims and Croats. All that we were able to see and hear about him and
• Q.: Witness D/C, I will stop there. I have no more questions for (5)you. It will now be the turn of my learned friends from the Prosecution to continue to put questions to you. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, the Defence has no further questions for this witness. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, (10)Mr. Petrusic. I'm looking at the clock, and from the point of view of organisation, perhaps it would be a good idea to have a break. But with respect to the day's schedule as a whole, this could complicate matters for us. But I think that we could have a rest. Let's take a break, a (15)half-hour break. --- Recess taken at 10.28 a.m. --- On resuming at 10.58 a.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I think it's going to be Mr. Harmon who is going to start the cross-examination. Yesterday we (20)spoke about Article 90, (G) and (H), and as the examination-in-chief took more or less an hour, with flexibility with which we take the Rule, please keep that in mind, members of the Prosecution. Witness D/C, have you had a rest? THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes, I have. Thank you. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well. You are now going to
MR. HARMON: Good morning, Your Honours, my colleagues from the Defence. • CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Harmon: (5) • Q.: Good morning, Witness D/C. MR. HARMON: Mr. President, if we can go into private session for the first set of questions.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes. Let us move into private
session. I suppose this has to do with matters of identification.
(10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] We are now. Please proceed, Mr. Harmon. MR. HARMON: • Q.: Witness D/C, you described in your direct examination the concrete tasks that you had in the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade. You identified (15)one of those tasks as a responsibility to inform the officers and the soldiers about the situation in which the Serb people found themselves. Can you explain that a little bit more, please, what you mean by that?
• A.: That means to inform the soldiers and officers with the prevailing
circumstances, to inform them of their environment, both immediate
(20)environment and the broader environment; the state of affairs in
Bosnia-Herzegovina, the territory where the unit is located, the territory
of Bosnia-Herzegovina; the state of affairs in the other republics of the
former Yugoslavia, and the situation and relationship of the International
Community towards the former Bosnia-Herzegovina. This also included the
(25)relationship of the Muslim people towards the Serbian people and vice
• Q.: Where would you get your information about the view that the (5)International Community had vis-a-vis the Serb people? • A.: We got official information from the Superior Commands, and this went down the chain of command, and also via the information media. • Q.: So did you get information about negotiations that were ongoing between the Serbs, the Muslims, and the Croats? (10) • A.: Yes, we did. We received that information. • Q.: Did you receive information about United Nations' developments, such as the views and Resolutions of the United Nations vis-a-vis, for example, the attack on the Srebrenica enclave? • A.: Yes, we did. We received that information. (15) • Q.: Did you receive information from -- let me ask you -- let me withdraw that question. When was it that you received that information in relation to the attack on the Srebrenica enclave? • A.: I'm not quite clear what you're asking me, whether when we moved towards the enclave or the events around the enclave. (20) • Q.: Let me clarify my question. When was it that you received information about developments at the United Nations and their view, their Resolutions, that related to Srebrenica? In July of 1995, in August of 1995?
• A.: Well, information about the position taken by the United Nations
(25)towards the safe area, we got that earlier on. But the Muslims did not
• Q.: Excuse me. If you just answer the question that I ask you, I'm going to try to be fairly precise in my questions. (5)Were you aware that the United Nations, following the attack on Srebrenica, was concerned about the fate of thousands of Muslim civilians and prisoners of war? • A.: After the fall of Srebrenica, well, at that time we didn't really because we continued towards the Zepa operation, so we had no separate (10)information as to the position of the United Nations, just concrete information. And via the public media we learnt what we could from them. We heard different information from the Federation; that is to say, the Muslims conveyed, carried, different information which did not correspond to the actual situation that we found on the ground. (15) • Q.: So you heard Muslim information through the radio, I take it, and through the television and other media sources that there were thousands of Muslim men -- • A.: Yes. • Q.: -- who were massacred following the fall of Srebrenica; is that (20)correct? • A.: Yes, I heard that. • Q.: And you were an officer in the VRS at the time dealing with the issue of informing the soldiers and the officers about the situation in which they found themselves; correct? (25)
• A.: Yes, that's right.
• A.: Yes, I did inform them. But those reports, the reports coming in, (5)and the casualties around Srebrenica, we learnt about that much later on; two to three months, perhaps, after the fall of Srebrenica. The first information came over the media much later, and immediately after the fall of Srebrenica, we knew nothing about that. • Q.: Did you hear on the 17th of July that the spokesperson for (10)President Karadzic issued a public statement in which he alleged or said that there were very serious allegations about the Muslim civilians and prisoners of war who had gone missing but that he personally did not give that any credit? Did you hear about that statement issued by Mr. Zametica? (15) • A.: No. At that time I did not hear about that, only later on, because we were already engaged in combat activities again and we had no occasion to listen to the information media and hear information of that kind. • Q.: Okay. So in performing your duties while you were in Srebrenica (20)and in Zepa, were you in an information blackout? You didn't get any information about that.
• A.: Well, it wasn't an information blockade or blackout. The
circumstances were as they were. But most of the work I did at the time
focused on information and what the tasks of the units were; to take care
(25)of the people on the terrain, to solve the problems that cropped up, the
• Q.: So at least that aspect of your job you were unable to fulfil because you didn't have information at your disposal; is that your (5)testimony? • A.: Well, not that I couldn't fulfil it. But according to the existing structure and hierarchy that existed in the army at that time, there was no need for that information. We didn't know about the events that had taken place, the occurrences. We were not informed about the (10)occurrences. • Q.: All right. We'll return to that topic in a few minutes. But let me now concentrate on your role in the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade. You testified that you received orders to go to Srebrenica sometime before the attack commenced on the enclave, and you testified that you at some (15)point in time reached the Alibegovac feature on the 10th of July. Now, up to that point in time, your unit had not had any resistance, had they? • A.: Smaller resistance. • Q.: In fact, your unit didn't suffer any casualties up through the (20)10th of July, did they? • A.: No, it did not. • Q.: Now, your testimony -- let me see if I understand the structure of your unit. The 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade, the Commander was Lieutenant Colonel Mirko Trivic; am I correct? (25)
• A.: Colonel Mirko Trivic.
• A.: Yes, he did have a deputy, but in the Srebrenica operation he wasn't there. He remained in his original unit. • Q.: Who was his second in command in the Srebrenica operation? (5) • A.: In the Srebrenica operation he did not have a deputy. • Q.: So he was solely in charge of commanding the units under him. • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, your role in that operation, can you explain to us exactly what it was? (10) • A.: Primarily, pursuant to orders, I had to explain to the soldiers and the commanding officers, the subordinate Commanders, what the object of our operation was for them to be able to understand why they were there, why they had come there, what their goal was; and to follow and monitor their work, to write reports, to do reporting for the command, to (15)observe their physical and psychological stability and the ability to stand up to the situation, the effects that enemy propaganda was having on them, and so on. • Q.: I take it those responsibilities took you into the field, away from Colonel Trivic? (20) • A.: Well, yes. Sometimes I was there; sometimes I was touring the soldiers in the units, going from one to another. But it was a small unit so we were mostly all together. • Q.: Were you with Colonel Trivic at all times during the operation? • A.: Yes. (25)
• Q.: Twenty-four hours a day?
• Q.: Did you have a communications centre associated with your unit? • A.: Yes, we did. • Q.: Where was it located? (5) • A.: It was located in the village of Jasenova, and we had communications on the terrain as well. • Q.: So the communications centre -- the principal communications centre for your unit was not the location Alibegovac; is that correct? • A.: Yes, there was one there. The communications centre was set up at (10)Jasenova, but all the devices that functioned in Jasenova functioned at Alibegovac as well. • Q.: All right. And what type of devices did you use at Alibegovac? Did you use hand-held Motorolas? • A.: Yes, Motorolas and hand-held receivers. (15) • Q.: Now, let me ask you this question, Witness D/C: Who would be in a better position to know what orders, if any, were given by General Mladic, you or Colonel Trivic? • A.: Well, I was present there and I could have heard. It's almost the same thing. He would receive the orders and I just listened to them, I (20)heard them. • Q.: So did you ever receive any orders from General Mladic? • A.: No.
• Q.: So let me return to my question again. During the operation
involving your unit, who was in the better position to know what orders
(25)were received from General Mladic, if any, you or Colonel Trivic?
• Q.: Let me read you a statement from Colonel Trivic. Colonel Trivic was -- JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Petrusic. (5) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] The Defence has an objection to the reading of that statement. The statement was not provided in the court. The Defence does not have that statement, it has not had an opportunity to get to know it, so I do not think that this statement should be read to the witness. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon. MR. HARMON: Yes, I take a contrary view to that. This statement was provided to us on the 5th of October by Colonel Trivic, who was interviewed, pursuant to a summons. This witness has testified about certain facts. I'm going to read her the views of Colonel Trivic in (15)respect of certain parts of her testimony and ask her to comment on it, and I think that is a fair and appropriate way to examine this witness. JUDGE WALD: Are you going to make the statement available to the Defence so they can see it? MR. HARMON: This statement, if they want to see it, I will make (20)it available but ...
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] I consider that statement -- that
that statement should have been provided to the Defence earlier because of
the examination-in-chief. And in this case, we are going to be
handicapped, in a handicapped position, because we're going to get the
(25)statement now in the course of this testimony, and what do we do with it
MR. HARMON: May I comment on that? May I comment on my colleague's remarks? JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, for us to be able to make a decision in that regard. (10) MR. HARMON: In the first place, we received a very brief and scant summary, mostly topical, about this witness' testimony. The Prosecutor complained about that on two occasions. So to assert that the Prosecutor knew what this witness was going to say is simply not correct. Second of all, if this transcript is to be made available to the (15)Defence, I would ask that, 1, it be kept -- it be returned to us, it not be disseminated. This is a statement that was provided to us pursuant to orders of the Prosecutor. It is a statement that relates to the investigation, and, very frankly, Mr. President, I would prefer making available to the witness the aspects of the statement about which I'm (20)going to examine and not all aspects of this, because other parts of this are sensitive.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] We are going to consider the
matter, and this will take a few moments. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] The Chamber has decided that the
MR. HARMON: Now, let me -- JUDGE RIAD: I just add, only the parts of the document which are (10)relevant, because you said that other parts are supposed to be kept for you. MR. HARMON: Thank you very much. • Q.: Let me read to you what Colonel Trivic told us in respect of the very point on which you testified. Questioned by Mr. Ruez: [as read] (15)"Q. Did you have direct communication with General Mladic from forward command post, or did the communication go through other people?" I'm sorry. Let me read from a few lines above that so I can get the totality of this. (20)"Q. Was this the first time that you were aware General Mladic was in the area? • A.: I knew before we were in contact through radiolink because he contacted us from the forward command post of Drina Corps. • Q.: Are you talking about Pribicevac command post? (25)
• A.: Yes, probably.
• A.: No. • Q.: Did you have direct communication with General Mladic from (5)forward command post or did the communication go through other people? • A.: Through the signal officers, communication officers or soldiers. • Q.: And what was the topic of the communications? (10) • A.: There was some warning that we will encounter some air raids, air strikes, just to secure -- just to -- I don't know who conveyed that information to him. But since he was the only -- since he was the one who directly conveyed that information to us, just to secure the manpower, actually to find the (15)proper shelter for them, because the air strikes were expected. I know that at the certain moment that the communications soldier was surprised first to hear Mladic on the radio, and then, second, he said, 'Fuck it. We are expecting the air raids. We have to find shelter.' (20) • Q.: Did you receive any other orders coming directly from General Mladic? • A.: In what sense? About the engagement of the unit or what? • Q.: Whatever. Whatever. There were direct instructions coming from his mouth. (25)
• A.: Not until the moment I greeted him, and when I was asked to
• Q.: Okay. At the moment he gave you that order, was he in the presence of Zivanovic and General Krstic? • A.: Yes, they were together. Yes, I got close to him and I (5)saluted him as my superior officer, and then I was tasked to secure that on an order to prevent possible attacks and surprises. I think that at that moment he addressed to all present commanding officers, saying that we should be ready for further movement toward Potocari." (10)That conversation took, all in all, around ten minutes. So I've read you -- I've finished reading the statement that was made by Colonel Trivic to the Office of the Prosecutor on the 5th of October, and according to Colonel Trivic, who you say was in a better position to know the orders, Colonel Trivic informed us that the only order that he (15)received from General Mladic was when he greeted Mladic in town at a ten-minute union. Do you care to comment on Colonel Trivic's statement? • A.: Yes, I can comment. That statement refers to the day of the 11th, when we entered Srebrenica, which means that previous orders were not reproduced there. (20) • Q.: Okay. We'll move on with your testimony. Now, let's talk about the meeting that you had in Srebrenica with General Mladic, General Zivanovic, and General Krstic. That meeting lasted about ten minutes, didn't it?
• A.: Yes. It wasn't a real meeting, it was just an encounter in the
(25)street. But I was speaking about the orders prior to Alibegovac, prior to
• Q.: Okay. (5) • A.: I cannot deny that General Mladic directly commanded the units. • Q.: Now, General Mladic was the Chief of the Main Staff, and his subordinate officer was General Krstic, who was at that time the Chief of Staff of the Drina Corps; correct? • A.: General Krstic was directly subordinate to the Commander of the (10)Drina Corps, General Zivanovic, and also one can say that he was subordinate to the Commander of the Main Staff, as was the whole Drina Corps. • Q.: Did General Krstic issue any orders to the Drina Corps and to members of the attacking units after the 10th of July? (15) • A.: I have no knowledge about that. I didn't hear them on the communication lines. • Q.: Did General Mladic order the -- I'm sorry. Did General Krstic order the units to proceed to Zepa? • A.: No. (20) • Q.: Who did? • A.: General Mladic gave orders to the Brigade Commanders. • Q.: Okay. Let us talk about the orders that were given to the Brigade Commanders. Were you present when those orders were given? • A.: I was not present. (25)
• Q.: All right. Well, let's just follow the sequence and the correct
• A.: The command staff of my unit returned to the camp in Jasenova, and (5)the unit itself stayed at the village of Bojna, close to Srebrenica, actually securing the town. • Q.: Where did you spend the night between the 11th of July and the morning of the 12th of July? • A.: I spent the night at the camp in Jasenova. (10) • Q.: And were you with Colonel Trivic again? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And what happened briefly on the -- strike that. I'll withdraw that question. Were you present when Colonel Trivic was ordered to attend the meeting at a television repeater approximately 800 metres south of (15)Srebrenica? This is on the 12th of July. • A.: Yes, I was present when he received that order, and I was present when he left. But I was not present at the meeting. • Q.: Were you aware that at that meeting that took place between your commanding officer and General Krstic and Colonel Obrad Vicic, that (20)General Krstic issued an order to sweep the terrain? • A.: I did not know who issued the order to sweep the terrain. • Q.: Following that meeting that took place at about 10.00 or 11.00 in the morning, did Colonel Trivic return, and did he tell you that he had received an order from General Krstic to sweep the terrain? (25)
• A.: Yes, he returned and he told us that he had received an order but
• Q.: Did your unit, in fact, sweep the terrain after the return of Colonel Trivic? (5) • A.: Yes. We went from Srebrenica, towards Jahorina. It is about 10 or 20 kilometres away. We moved on foot. We went parallel with the road going from Srebrenica to Jahorina, and then from there on, Viogora and Suceska. • Q.: Let me read you what took place at that meeting and ask you to (10)comment on what Colonel Trivic says occurred at that meeting at 10.00 or 11.00 in the morning of the 12th. "Q. We are now --" JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Visnjic. Is there a problem in the transcript? (15) MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] No, Mr. President, this time. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] What is the objection, then?
MR. VISNJIC:
[Int.] The witness has already said that
she was not present at the meeting. The Prosecutor is now going to read
an extract from a statement by a person who attended that meeting. I
(20)cannot assume what the Prosecutor wants from the witness. But I do wish
to draw attention to the fact that if the Prosecutor determines what is
relevant from that statement which needs to be shown to the Defence, in
the opinion of the Defence, that is purely his own opinion.
In our opinion, it would be preferable for the Defence to receive
(25)the whole statement of Colonel Trivic, especially since the Defence has
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. Visnjic. Mr. Harmon, briefly, please. MR. HARMON: Again, Your Honour, I am going to read what Colonel (15)Trivic says and identify another officer who was present at that meeting and ask this witness to comment on it. JUDGE WALD: I'm having trouble just making that linkage. Maybe you could be a little bit more specific about why you would be asking this witness to comment on a meeting at which she has declared she wasn't (20)present? I mean, what kind of linkage would you hope to show later on?
MR. HARMON: Yes, let me explain that, Judge Wald.
This witness has said, 1, she was very close to Colonel Trivic;
she was with him at all times; she was on his command staff. Presumably
she's in a position to know from Colonel Trivic what orders Colonel Trivic
(25)received and what actions were taken as a result of those orders.
(10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] We have already decided that you may use this statement to check the credibility of the witness. As for divergencies that may exist between the statement given to the Prosecution and the Defence, we will see that in the examination-in-chief of the Defence and the cross-examination of the Prosecution. (15)So these questions are now being put to check the credibility of the witness, and it is the Prosecutor that has certain doubts regarding the credibility, so it is up to the Prosecutor to determine which parts of the statement they will use. As for the re-examination of the Defence, it is these parts of the statement that will have to be used. (20)So we uphold our decision, having given that explanation. Please continue, Mr. Prosecutor. MR. HARMON: • Q.: Do you know a Drina Corps officer by the name of Obrad Vicic? • A.: Yes. I have known him for a long time. (25)
• Q.: And during the Srebrenica operation and during the Zepa operation,
• A.: No, he was not a communications officer. He worked in the Drina Corps, in the Operations Department. • Q.: There was a poor translation. I said operations officer, not (5)communications officer. He was the operations officer for General Krstic; isn't that correct? • A.: Not for General Krstic but for the Drina Corps, and he was directly subordinated to General Zivanovic. • Q.: Okay. Now, we'll pass on this particular point and we'll move to (10)another point, Witness D/C. After you conducted -- I'm sorry. After Colonel Trivic returned to the area after the meeting in the morning, your unit conducted a sweep operation. My question is: Did Colonel Trivic and did you participate in that sweep operation? (15) • A.: Yes. • Q.: And did Colonel Trivic receive an order to report to a specific location while he was conducting that sweep operation? Did he leave? • A.: The search was to have been done earlier because that same day, the unit was supposed to line up to move on. However, the search took (20)longer because of the inaccessibility of the terrain, and in the evening, at the invitation of General Mladic, Colonel Trivic went to a meeting. That is what we were told. • Q.: Before that invitation, did Colonel Trivic leave the sweep operation at or around 1800 or 1900 hours? (25)
• A.: Yes, around 1800 or 1900 hours. That was the end of the
• Q.: And he went to meet General Krstic, didn't he? • A.: No. The communications conveyed that General Mladic was calling (5)the commanding officers to a meeting. • Q.: Let me read you what Colonel Trivic has to say about this particular topic. This is Colonel Trivic. "A. So sometime, because we were moving slowly, cautiously along the road ..." (10)Let me interrupt here for a second. That's the road that you testified about moving up with your unit. "A. ... and once we -- so sometime around 1800 or 1900 hours. It was summertime so the sun was still up. Actually, I was ordered to refer to the village of Viogor, and I was told (15)that the commander of the operation, that's Krstic, is waiting for me there. I got to him and he was accompanied by Andric. He asked me to brief him about the situation, whether I was engaged in any kind of combat or something like that, but there was no fighting activities so I was tasked, he told me (20)to stay at those positions. So I organised the outpost to organise the line and everything else and to get connected with adjacent units, and I think that was the time when he ordered me to refer to the Bratunac Brigade headquarters at 10.00 p.m. (25)
• Q.: Uh-huh. So 12 July, 10.00 p.m., the request to go to the
• A.: So I issued orders to my subordinates, I went back to the village, to the command post where I was before to pick up maps and some materials, and I made my way to Bratunac." (5)Now, can you comment on what Colonel Trivic says when he says that he met with General Krstic and General Krstic ordered him to go to the Bratunac Brigade headquarters? Can you comment on that, please? • A.: I cannot comment on that because Colonel Trivic did not inform us about all those details. We just heard over the communication lines, (10)conveyed by the signalsman, that all the unit Commanders were being invited by the command of the Main Staff to the headquarters in Bratunac. • Q.: Now, do you have any reason to dispute what Colonel Trivic told the Office of the Prosecutor? • A.: No, I am not disputing those details because I'm not familiar with (15)the details. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Visnjic. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, the witness has already said that she cannot confirm these things. I don't understand this additional question if the witness has already clearly said that she (20)cannot confirm or deny. I think that is the only logical conclusion from the witness' response.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes, Mr. Harmon, please proceed.
The witness has already answered, and may I remind you that you have a
time limit. And if you're going to use that time, it's up to you how
(25)you're going to use it.
• Q.: Now, you did not attend that meeting, did you, at the Bratunac Brigade headquarters? • A.: No, no. (5) • Q.: Are you aware that at that meeting, General Mladic issued an order to General Krstic for General Krstic to issue an order to his subordinate units to move to Zepa? • A.: I know that General Mladic issued orders. All the unit Commanders were present and they received direct orders that the next day, in the (10)morning, we were to move on Zepa. I have no other concrete information about that meeting. • Q.: Now, did General Krstic then issue orders to the subordinate units that they had to move to Zepa? • A.: Colonel Trivic, when he returned from the meeting, he immediately (15)informed us what our next assignment was. And on the 13th, in the morning, we headed towards Zepa. I took a road via Srebrenica, Potocari, Bratunac, whereas my unit took the direction Srebrenica, Jahorina, Viogora, Suceska. I think that at Viogora -- • Q.: I'm going to ask you about that in a few minutes. My question (20)was: Are you aware -- I'm sorry. Did General Krstic then issue orders to your unit and other units that they should proceed to Zepa?
• A.: I was not there. This was at Viogora. The units assembled there
on the 13th, in the morning, and they were addressed by General Mladic, as
far as I know. I cannot say whether Krstic was there. But when they
(25)reached Zepa, they said that they were directly addressed by General
• Q.: Okay. So as I understood your testimony, you were present with Colonel Trivic on the 13th at Viogora; correct? • A.: No. (5) • Q.: You weren't? • A.: No. • Q.: What time did you leave -- • A.: No, no. • Q.: -- Viogora on the 13th? (10) • A.: On the 13th I wasn't at Viogora at all. Colonel Trivic, myself, and the Commander of the Communications Company took the direct road via Slapovici-Srebrenica-Potocari-Bratunac, whereas my unit and the other officers in command took the route Srebrenica-Viogora. And at Viogora they were lined up and addressed by General Mladic. So I wasn't present (15)at all. I didn't take that route on the 13th. • Q.: All right. My question was: Where was Colonel Trivic on the morning of the 13th? Was he at Viogora? • A.: No, he was not. • Q.: Let me read to you now what Colonel Trivic has to say about the (20)meeting of the 13th, in the morning, at Viogora. "Q. Okay. Fine. So we are, indeed, now the 13th of July, in the morning, and you are south of Srebrenica where your forward command post was initially located.
• A.: This is where I slept. In the morning I went to Viogora,
(25)somewhere here, to meet Mladic and Krstic, because they were
(5) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Okay. Who was the one speaking? • A.: I gave my report and Mladic addressed the soldiers. He explained to him about the new task, about the need to continue, that we cannot return to our base unit, base (10)location. The way that he addressed to them is like every commander when he wants to boost the morale and ask the soldiers that they cannot go and take a bath and change their uniforms and do anything. In that kind of way, he was addressing the soldiers. So 'Is that clear?' Yes. (15) • Q.: Sure. • A.: No, no, no, that's not what I said. When he left then, I had problems to calm down the situation. He has a big authority and we, who were supposed to execute the task, we had problems to organise, and those who were really in critical conditions (20)to send them back in the base and bring the new forces to cover them up and stuff. • Q.: General Zivanovic was not present at the meeting, or was he?" THE INTERPRETER: Could you slow down, please, counsel.
MR. HARMON: Yes, I'm sorry.
(25)"A. No, no, no, I think he wasn't there. Only those two.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, the interpreters are asking you to slow down a little. (5) MR. HARMON: I thought I did, but I'll slow -- JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] There's a conflict of interest. The interpreters want you to speak slowly and you wish to speak quickly because you can bring in more material. I don't know whether the witness can memorise all that and then answer your question, but go ahead. (10) MR. HARMON: I will slow down. I will pick up where I was. • Q.: Let me repeat: Colonel Trivic was asked the question by Mr. Ruez: "Q. Do you have an idea, approximately, what hour it was when the two Generals were addressing the troops? (15) • A.: Ten, eleven, in the late morning. I was given the route which I'm going to take with my troops. That's from there through Derventa, Milici, Vlasenica, Han Pijesak, and then to Krivaca." Now, your testimony this morning was that you were -- you first of (20)all went with Colonel Trivic to Zepa. Colonel Trivic says he took a different route. Can you comment on that, please?
• A.: I can comment on that. I think that all the statements given by
Colonel Trivic about the meeting refers to the meeting in Bratunac of the
12th. Whether he consciously or unintentionally confused the dates. But
(25)I state with full responsibility that on the 13th, in the morning, when
(5) • Q.: Now -- • A.: And as for General Krstic, we found him at Zepa. So I don't understand that statement myself. • Q.: So when Colonel Trivic says that he was present in Viogora at 10.00 or 11.00, in the late morning, and you testified that in the morning (10)of the 13th, before noon, you were in Nova Kasaba, there's a radical difference, isn't there? • A.: Yes, there is a difference. • Q.: Okay. Now, let's talk about your trip down the Bratunac-Milici road. When you went along that road, your testimony was that there were (15)Muslim soldiers who were firing at the VRS soldiers and police who were alongside that road; is that correct? • A.: Yes. • Q.: How long did you observe that fire fight? • A.: This was happening -- I think this was near to the village of (20)Kravica because there were quite a number of burned-down houses around; maybe in terms of kilometres, for 2 kilometres, roughly. I cannot tell you exactly. But this was quite a long stretch of road. Because the configuration of the ground was such that there was a hillside, and as you drove along the road you were able to see these things. (25)
• Q.: Did you see any soldiers from the Bratunac Brigade either injured
• A.: No. All the soldiers and policemen were lying down in the trench along the road, on the other side of the road, so I couldn't recognise them. I could only recognise their uniforms, the olive-grey and the (5)camouflage blue uniforms worn by the civilian police. They were all lying down. I didn't really have time to pay attention to all that. We were trying to overtake the convoy to save ourselves, so we didn't have much time to look carefully. MR. HARMON: Your Honours, I'm going to present an exhibit as (10)Prosecutor's Exhibit 791. It is for your consideration; I don't ask the witness to comment on this exhibit. And if it could be distributed to counsel as well. This exhibit, for the record, is a document that was seized by the Office of the Prosecutor from the Bratunac Brigade, and it is a list of (15)soldiers from the 1st Bratunac Light Infantry Brigade who were killed between the 18th of April, 1992 and the 25th of September, 1995. And there are no casualties described in this for any of the days during which time the Srebrenica enclave was taken, and particularly the date of the 13th of July, which the witness has testified about. (20) • Q.: Now, Witness D/C, we're going to play a film, and before we play this film, I'd like to ask you: When you were going along that road, did you see any anti-aircraft guns that were firing at the civilians who were in the hills? • A.: No, no. (25)
MR. HARMON: Can I have a Prosecutor's exhibit, please, which is
• Q.: If you can watch the monitor, Witness, I'm going to ask you some
questions about this. This is a film from the 13th of July. (5)
MR. HARMON: The film continues; there's more to it than that. MR. HARMON: • Q.: Now, Witness, this film was taken on the 13th of July, on the very same road that you went in your direction towards Zepa. Did you see those (10)anti-aircraft guns firing into the hills? • A.: No. The guns here are on the road all the time that I moved. There was a convoy of Muslims, buses/trucks, on that road, and we overtook them towards Konjevic Polje. It was an enormous column. And just soldiers with infantry pieces were lying down. Muslims also had infantry (15)weapons. And this wasn't the situation on that road. Had it been so, we wouldn't have been able to pass. • Q.: All right. • A.: And everybody seems to be shown to be on the road here in this clip. (20)
• Q.: Well, this is a film that was taken on the 13th of July by a
Serbian journalist, and you can see that it is timed, dated, and
referenced. So let me turn to the next clip, please, in just a minute.
The Trial Chamber has heard testimony, Witness D/C, of a
significant number of Muslim civilians coming down from the hills and
(25)surrendering to the VRS army units and police units that were alongside
MR. HARMON: And do we have the next clip, which is clip number
(5)4? MR. HARMON: • Q.: Do you see the person in the blue helmet in this film? I want you to focus on that. (10)Now, this is also a film from the 13th, Witness D/C, and according to the soldiers -- THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please, Mr. Harmon. MR. HARMON: • Q.: This is also a film from the 13th of July, and according to the (15)soldiers who were interviewed by the journalist, Muslim civilians were surrendering all day. Did you see any of those surrenders? • A.: No, I did not see that. I just remembered when they fired because the journey was dangerous and we had to keep taking over the column of buses and trucks. The column was an extremely long one. Later on I saw (20)some soldiers lying down, but I didn't see any Muslim civilians there. Probably those who were shooting, who had rifles. We can see some dark figures. Whether they were wearing uniforms or civilian clothing, was not actually discernible.
JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Harmon, do you have any translation of the
(25)dialogue which was happening between the people shooting?
JUDGE RIAD: Yes, this last one. MR. HARMON: I thought that had been distributed. It is Prosecutor's Exhibit 102A. It had been previously distributed. I thought (5)there was a package that was available to Your Honours. • Q.: Witness, did you see the Bosnian Serb soldier wearing a stolen UN blue helmet in this film? • A.: Yes. I saw he had something blue on his head. • Q.: Did you see any Bosnian Serb soldiers along the Bratunac-Milici (10)road wearing United Nations' gear that had been stolen, such as helmets, flak jackets? • A.: No, no, I couldn't notice that. • Q.: Did you see any Bosnian Serb soldiers with megaphones calling up into the hills, urging the people to surrender? (15) • A.: No.
MR. HARMON: Could we have the last clip, please, number 5. And
while we're showing this clip, Madam Registrar, if I could have
Prosecutor's Exhibit 8/1 and 7/2 prepared and available. (20)
THE INTERPRETER:
[Voiceover] How long have you been there? We
were there two days and two nights, completely surrounded. What were your
rifles? I didn't have a rifle. I'm a civilian. Civilian, all right,
then have no fear. Were you very afraid? Who wouldn't be afraid. Go
ahead. What the fuck. You're scared. Come on, have no fear. Hey, you
(25)journalist, how come he already arrived before they did? Hey, take off
MR. HARMON: • Q.: Witness, that was a scene that was filmed near a location Sandici (5)meadows that you passed by on the 13th of July. Did you see any civilians that were in the custody of the VRS soldiers or the police on the road as you drove through? JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Petrusic. I apologise for interrupting, Witness. Just a moment, please. (10) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, the Defence would like to ask the Prosecution, if possible, for precision purposes, of the answer that the witness is to give now, whether the Prosecutor can be concrete and tell us what time of day this film was made, this clip was made, and the concrete situation, because the witness said that she passed (15)at a certain time of day, that she passed by that way at a certain time of day. Now, can the Prosecutor be more precise as to the time when this clip was taken? We know it was the 13th of July. But if the witness says that on the road to Bratunac-Konjevic Polje she passed at a certain time (20)of day, we should like to ask the Prosecutor to be more precise as to the time. MR. HARMON: I can answer that. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, yes.
MR. HARMON: First of all, there is testimony from civilians that
(25)they surrendered all day long. The answer to my colleague is it's
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Harmon, but you could ask the witness what time she passed and then we can discuss that afterwards. But we must bear in mind the time as well, Mr. Harmon. MR. HARMON: Yes. She testified on her direct examination that (10)she travelled down that road sometime before noon. That's why I didn't ask her that question. But I would like to show the witness a series of exhibits. If they are prepared, first of all, I'd like to show Exhibit 8/1, if that could be placed on the ELMO. • Q.: Now, Witness, this is a location that you passed. It's called -- (15)it's a warehouse in Kravica. It's an aerial view. And first of all -- and there are two buses located at this location. The Trial Chamber has heard testimony of a significant number of prisoners who were detained at this warehouse on the 13th of July and who were murdered at this location on the 13th of July. Did you pass this warehouse on the 13th of July, and (20)did you see a large number of prisoners who were detained at that location?
• A.: No, I cannot remember the warehouse because I don't know the area
very well. I recognise the communication here. But when I was moving
along the road, there were lots of buses and trucks transporting the
(25)Muslim people. That's not on the photograph. And at that time there were
(5) • Q.: Let me show you the next exhibit. It's Prosecutor's Exhibit 7/4. This is the location of the film clip where you saw Muslim civilians surrendering. This is Sandici meadow. In this picture you will see a number of buses and you'll see a large grey mass in the middle, and there has been testimony that this constitutes many hundreds of civilians who (10)were detained on this meadow. My question, first of all, is: You passed this meadow on the way to Zepa. Did you see a meadow where hundreds of civilians and prisoners of war were detained? Do you remember seeing that? • A.: No, just in Potocari. I saw lots of civilians only in Potocari, (15)men, women, children, and from that time on, buses arriving and trucks arriving. But on this photograph or on the last photograph, the two buses, they mean nothing to me. It means nothing to me if two buses are parked somewhere. • Q.: Did you see a tank in the film a few minutes ago? (20) • A.: Well, I saw different artillery weapons, artillery pieces, on the film previously. • Q.: Did you --
• A.: It was on the road, on an asphalt road, and it was operating. But
when we came by it wasn't there, because we wouldn't have been able to
(25)pass the buses and trucks, and that's why I say that they weren't there at
• Q.: My question was: In the film I played just a moment ago, there was a tank in the film. Did you see that image of the tank? • A.: Was it a tank or was it an APC? (5) • Q.: Okay. I'll find the specific spot; I'm going to show you the tank in just a minute. But did you see any tanks at all along the road? • A.: No, not at all, not a single one, or any other artillery pieces. Only infantry weapons. And that could have lasted -- the whole trip could have lasted about an hour. (10) • Q.: Now, you went through Nova Kasaba, did you not? • A.: Yes, Nova Kasaba, Milici, Vlasenica, that is, the communication line towards Han Pijesak and Zepa. MR. HARMON: Could I have Prosecutor's Exhibit 12/2 placed on the ELMO. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon. MR. HARMON: I only have a few minutes, Mr. President. I'm trying to -- JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I was about to divide up our time. I should like to ask you when you're -- when you think you're going (20)to finish. It is now twenty minutes past twelve. MR. HARMON: I should finish within 15 minutes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Not more. Because I thought that we could go up to half past twelve, but we'll give you until 12.35. MR. HARMON: Thank you very much. (25)
• Q.: This is a picture of -- an aerial image, taken at approximately
(10) • A.: I did not see the field either, the football field. I didn't pay attention. Had there been people there, I'm sure I would have noticed. But I didn't notice the football field at all. This was at 1400 hours. I passed by in the morning hours, so I can't tell you anything about that. (15) • Q.: Okay. So it's your testimony that at no time on route from Bratunac to Zepa did you see a single Muslim prisoner being detained by the VRS soldiers; is that correct? • A.: No, I did not, not from a car. No, I couldn't see that. • Q.: All right. (20) • A.: I saw the convoy. MR. HARMON: Now if I could have Prosecutor's Exhibit 771, please. • Q.: Do you know a gentleman by the name of Colonel Popovic? • A.: Yes, I do know him. • Q.: Do you see Colonel Popovic next to General Krstic in this image? (25)
• A.: Yes. He has a moustache. It could be him, possibly it is, but it
• Q.: Did you see Colonel Popovic in Srebrenica on the 11th of July? • A.: I can't really say. I saw him somewhere, I did see him somewhere, whether it was Srebrenica or Zepa. (5) • Q.: Okay. Let's move on a little bit in your testimony and ask you -- you testified on direct examination about who you saw in Zepa, and in response to my colleague's question, you said you saw both General Krstic, General Mladic, and the Main Staff officers, including General Tolimir, Beara, and others. (10) • A.: Yes, yes. • Q.: Is that correct? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Where did you see them in Zepa? Where was it that you saw them? • A.: I saw them at the forward command post of Krivaca. (15) • Q.: Approximately when did you see Colonel Beara at the forward command post in Krivaca? • A.: In the course of the operation, that was for sure. But I saw him several times. I think Beara or Tolimir, that they were negotiating with the Muslims. I didn't know them very well but I just saw them there. (20) • Q.: Did you see Colonel Beara with General Krstic? • A.: General Krstic, I saw him more because he would tour the units. He visited the soldiers, the units, the command. I don't think he was there when I saw them all gathered there.
• Q.: Did you see Colonel Popovic down at the forward command post in
(25)Krivaca?
• Q.: Okay. Now, did you ever see General Zivanovic down at Zepa? (5) • A.: I think I did at the beginning of the operation, that he was there. But he wasn't there later on. • Q.: What was wrong with General Zivanovic's physical condition? • A.: I don't know. I don't know that anything was wrong. • Q.: Why did he leave the VRS? (10) • A.: Many have asked themselves that question. I really don't know. • Q.: What would have been the answers to that question? • A.: I can't answer that here. There is some information which is not for this Court; they are rumours, hearsay. But I didn't know that he was ill because he looked quite all right physically. (15) • Q.: What are the rumours and the hearsay? • A.: Well, then I'll say what it was. One of the rumours, later on, on the streets when you socialised with people, with the ordinary people, you could hear that General Zivanovic was replaced because of the massacre at Srebrenica, and that all this was laid at the door of General Krstic. But (20)those are only rumours. • Q.: Now, did you attend any going-away party or any handover-of-duties ceremony between General Zivanovic and General Krstic?
• A.: I did not -- I was not present, but my Commander, Mirko Trivic,
he -- there was a restaurant between Sokolac and Han Pijesak. I think the
(25)name of it was Jela.
• A.: No. My Commander, Colonel Mirko Trivic, received an invitation to attend the seeing-off ceremony of General Zivanovic who was retiring, and that was at that restaurant. It was in the middle of combat operations so we weren't quite clear -- we didn't have time to pay attention to that at (10)all. And the knowledge that the next Commander was Krstic, it was about seven -- we learnt about that seven days after we arrived at Zepa that he had been -- we were informed about that. • Q.: Now, I have only a few questions left. Did the VRS massacre hundreds of unarmed Muslim civilians and prisoners of war following the (15)takeover of the Srebrenica enclave? • A.: I cannot answer that question because I don't know. All I know about that is via the media, the information media. If that really did happen, which I find -- nobody can believe, then that is really a crime. But I state once again that General Krstic would never have ordered (20)anything like that and that he did not know about it.
• Q.: Well, my question is:
[redacted] • A.: Yes. (25)
• Q.: -- by international observers. There have been a series of
• A.: Yes. (5) • Q.: Do you believe that the VRS massacred those civilians? • A.: Well, if I saw all that documentation, but all of it has been reproduced by the Federation, the Muslim Federation. • Q.: My question is -- • A.: I cannot believe it. I find it difficult to believe. (10) • Q.: Okay. Now, let me ask you just some last questions. When was the first time that you heard about these massacres? • A.: Quite a long time later. I thought it was -- I think it was the autumn of that year, when it began to be rumoured. Before that nobody knew about it, the population, the army, the people. And I learnt about (15)that through the information media because up till then they were closed off. We didn't know much. When General Krstic was arrested, then we received different information about everything and evidence and pictures, photographs, although, as a human being I can't conceive of it being at all possible. (20)
• Q.: Witness D/C, shortly after the massacres -- after the fall of
Srebrenica took place, and many of these massacres took place in public
areas in the Zvornik municipality - one major massacre took place at the
Kravica warehouse, the warehouse by which you passed on the morning of the
13th - those massacres which were quite public in nature were known to the
(25)civilian population and known to the military that participated in those.
• A.: No, not immediately after. Perhaps two to three months went by (5)when something like that was talked about, but not at all those figures. And there was no official information in the command or via the information that it had actually taken place. It was only in 1990-something. When General Krstic was arrested, well, then, the story began to be recounted and that kind of information. (10) • Q.: Now, you personally acquired information about those massacres, didn't you? • A.: No, not personally, no. There was no official information ever from the Superior Command. But it was for the most part from the information media, and the Muslim information media at that. (15) • Q.: What did you do to attempt to verify, since you were involved in morale and you needed to inform the subordinate soldiers who were in your units whether these rumours were correct, what did you do to attempt to verify this information that was quite common? • A.: We learnt that after peace was established, when the unit was (20)demobilised. The postal code has young conscripts now. But all those rumours and all those events around Srebrenica could not be verified, nor could any information be obtained, nor was it possible to have any influence over that. Even people in much higher positions, not to mention ordinary officers and soldiers. (25)
• Q.: Witness D/C, wouldn't those allegations, if true, directly affect
• A.: To maintain the morale, yes. But these allegations were made by the Muslim side. Information obtained from the media cannot be (5)disseminated be they Serbian or Muslim media, because during the war and after the war, there were so many discrepancies, there were many untruths. There were various political parties, each one with their own version. And our responsibility is to reproduce information that we receive down the chain of command. But we never received any such (10)information in that manner. • Q.: And information that you also received and disseminated was information about United Nations' Resolutions related to Srebrenica, and there were United Nations' Resolutions that dealt with the missing of Srebrenica. Was that a source that was questionable in your mind? (15) • A.: No. Officially we did not receive that Resolution in the unit; we just heard about it. • Q.: Is there -- JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, another question. It's already two minutes beyond your time. So this is your last (20)question. Be careful choosing it. MR. HARMON: I've thought about it already. Thank you. • Q.: When was it, Witness D/C, that you learned that the Supreme Commander, Radovan Karadzic, and the head of the army, Ratko Mladic, were indicted for the events in Srebrenica by the Tribunal? (25)
• A.: I really cannot remember the date. But we did learn about it. I
MR. HARMON: I have no additional questions. JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Harmon, you just gave us an exhibit 757 with a picture. Is it relevant to any of your questions? (5) MR. HARMON: It is not. We will make an offer -- we will tender certain of those exhibits into evidence. That will not be one of them. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. President. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. Harmon, (10)especially for your cooperation. We are now going to have the long break. But before that, I should like you, Mr. Harmon, to communicate to the Defence the extracts that you used so that we will try and divide up the time so as to give a little time to the Defence to prepare. But as we're having the big break (15)now, I think that the Defence will be able to review those extracts before the re-examination. So we are intentionally having the break now so that the Defence will have time to review those texts for its re-examination. So we are now going to have an hour-long break. JUDGE WALD: Can I just clarify one thing on this, because I'm not (20)sure I understood myself. As far as what you have to give the Defence, I understand it's just -- is it just, what you're going to give them, the extract which you've already quoted into the record, or is it any other material that deals with that precise subject matter?
MR. HARMON: I had intended to give them just the extracts, but I
(25)can give them just a little bit more to deal with the subject matter
JUDGE WALD: Well, I would feel more comfortable then. I know it isn't going to be true, but we always have the hypothetical that in the next line, somebody gives a sentence that, you know, goes against what (5)came before. So I think that would make everybody, certainly me, feel more comfortable. MR. HARMON: I will do that. No problem. Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. A one-hour break now. (10) --- Recess taken at 12.40 p.m. --- On resuming at 1.42 p.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So, Witness D/C, you are going to answer questions now put to you by Mr. Petrusic. Mr. Petrusic, your witness. (15) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. The Defence will not re-examine this witness for long. We shall take advantage of the material disclosed to us by the Prosecution in the break to put questions regarding it. • RE-EXAMINED by Mr. Petrusic: (20)
• Q.: Witness D/C, in a statement given by your Commander, Colonel
Trivic, to the Office of the Prosecutor in Banja Luka on the 5th of
October, page 39, it says, among other things, that on the 12th of July,
between 10.00 and 11.00 a.m., officers received orders at the Bojna
repeater, that they gathered there and that they received certain
(25)instructions and orders.
• A.: At Bojna, on that date, on the 12th, I did not see General Krstic, or at that time. • Q.: The Prosecutor also showed -- quoted from a statement in which your Commander claims that on the 13th of July he took a different route (20)to go to Zepa rather than the route via Srebrenica-Potocari-Bratunac-Konjevic Polje to go to Zepa, the route that you have described. Are you now sure that you and Colonel Trivic and your signalsman together took the route that you told us about in your examination-in-chief, and also during the cross-examination? (25)
• A.: Yes, I'm quite certain of that.
(5) • A.: He was present. I think he was involved in the negotiations, and he was also Chief of Security. He and General Tolimir conducted the negotiations. I don't know exactly what they talked about, but we got certain information about offensive operations and the like. • Q.: So you know that he and General Tolimir were engaged in (10)negotiations. • A.: Yes. I saw them several times. • Q.: And those negotiations were between who and who? • A.: Between the Serb side, the army of Republika Srpska, and the Muslim side, actually representatives of Zepa municipality. (15) • Q.: Colonel Beara and General Tolimir are officers of the Main Staff of the army of Republika Srpska, are they not? • A.: Yes. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Excuse me, Mr. President. My friend Visnjic is drawing my attention to the transcript regarding the (20)interruption of offensive operations. So let me repeat the question. • Q.: So you received orders to halt offensive operations because of the negotiations at Boksanica Mountain with the Muslim side and other representatives; is that correct? • A.: Yes, that is correct. (25)
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] Mr. President, the Defence has no
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Mr. Petrusic. Judge Fouad Riad, do you have any questions? (5) JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. • QUESTIONED by the Court: JUDGE RIAD: Good afternoon, Witness D/C. I can't say your name. I just want to have a clearer perception of what you went through since you almost graduated -- you said you graduated as a professor. Were you (10)ever a professor? • A.: Your Honour, I never worked as a professor. JUDGE RIAD: But you had the title. You said that in the beginning of your testimony, that you had the title of professor. • A.: Yes. (15) JUDGE RIAD: But you preferred to be an officer. • A.: Yes.
JUDGE RIAD:
[redacted]
• A.:
[redacted]
JUDGE RIAD: I mean, as a catalyst to direct them against what you (10)call the enemy? • A.: No, no. Our lines were defensive lines, and the Serb army was not always attacking, it was mostly defending and protecting the Serb civilian population from the attacks by Muslim soldiers. JUDGE RIAD: Good. As far as attacks are concerned, I will go now (15)to 1995, in Srebrenica. You mentioned today that there was no resistance from Muslim forces on July 10th and you took control very easily of the area, and therefore they did not have to shoot much. So there was no attack in that part in that time, in that area of Srebrenica? Did I understand you (20)rightly? • A.: Yes, you did. One can't say there were no attacks, but there were no operations of any greater intensity. JUDGE RIAD: But Srebrenica, in that case, was not really shelled, the city itself, to your knowledge. (25)
• A.: Yes, I know that very well. It was not shelled at all. Not a
JUDGE RIAD: But when you went in, there was nobody in it, was there? It was a deserted city, except for this -- • A.: Yes. (5) JUDGE RIAD: -- Serb whom you saw killed? • A.: Yes, I saw two Muslims, and the third, a woman, was a Serb. The people had abandoned the town and headed towards Potocari. JUDGE RIAD: The whole population fled, ran away. • A.: Yes. We entered a completely deserted Srebrenica. (10)
JUDGE RIAD:
[redacted] • A.: I think that when the Serb army reached their initial positions, they themselves requested to go to the territory of the Federation, (15)because as far as I know, they could have stayed behind. They could have surrendered and stayed on, but they all said that they wanted to leave because they didn't want to live in a location where Serb authority had been established.
JUDGE RIAD: I'll not dwell on that. It was very -- I was very
(20)interested in listening to you telling us about how General Krstic was
loved by his soldiers, and this is something very understandable. He
cared for them. You also told us that he visited them in hospitals and so
on. Was he, in other words, also -- you know when you love someone very
much, you can let him do what he likes. So was he permissive? Would he
(25)allow them certain eccentricities, violations, and not really hold them
• A.: No. In the unit there was strict discipline, and precisely because of that discipline the troops and officers respected him. It was an organised entity where everything functioned normally. And whenever he (5)addressed soldiers or officers, he always drew their attention to their behaviour, how they should behave, how they should conduct the war. He was a soldier, a real soldier, and nothing more than that. JUDGE RIAD: So for the sake of popularity, he would not sacrifice discipline and accountability. (10) • A.: Though he was so strict and introduced strict discipline, he was loved and respected, because he was also a just man, a fair man. In all the situations we found ourselves in, he always had the right solution. JUDGE RIAD: Now, being strict, do you have any instance where he applied this discipline by punishing soldiers or holding them accountable (15)for violations?
• A.: Yes, there were such cases. Many soldiers at the beginning of
1992 and many people who were mobilised to our units were refugees from
Zenica, Sarajevo, and various other places, so they were extremely
indignant about everything that had happened to them. They had lost their
(20)homes; some of them, family members. They joined the unit and they tried
to behave in the way they wanted.
For instance, if a Muslim was captured, there were cases that they
wanted to kill him, not just to kill him but to somehow take their revenge
on him for what they had been through, but he was always against that.
(25)And this was something that was so pronounced. He attached the greatest
JUDGE RIAD: You being in the Information Department, do you have any specific cases where he really did practice that and he had authority to do it, or was it just as a principle which was not put into action? • A.: No, no. It was always put into action, it was put into practice, (10)and that's why we're so fully aware of it. I mentioned that we had Muslim prisoners who were kept for more than a year near the brigade headquarters, and I said how he treated them. As in any army, there were extremists, uneducated, illiterate people who had lost their homes and families, who wanted to make up for it in a way by killing that person or (15)mistreating them. But, no, no one dared do any such thing because of him, and that is how it was always. And now suddenly nobody understands why General Krstic should be accused for Srebrenica and accused for the death of such an enormous number of people, which we can hardly conceive of being killed. We just (20)don't understand that. JUDGE RIAD: Did he have the authority to punish, or just to give orders to the soldiers not to commit anything? But did he have real authority to punish anybody who really committed?
• A.: While he was the Brigade Commander, he had the authority of a
(25)Brigade Commander, and the Commander has the greatest powers. He could
JUDGE RIAD: You, in fact, mentioned that - I just found it in my notes - he was very kind to the prisoners and he sometimes exchanged (10)them. Did he have authority to exchange the prisoners? Was it within the authority of a Commander, or was it a political thing? • A.: At the time when he was the Commander, he had the authority to exchange, but he also -- for some prisoners to be exchanged, certain bodies had to exist to actually carry out the exchange. He could just (15)propose that he would give so many people for exchange, but there were services and bodies who actually engaged in those exchanges. I think it was the Security Organs and the civilian MUPs or the police; I think they were responsible for all these exchanges. JUDGE RIAD: But what was his role, then? Did he suggest -- was (20)he a promoter of exchange? • A.: Yes, he would make a suggestion. For instance, he would say, "I have war prisoners in the unit," and then he would make a request for them to be exchanged.
JUDGE RIAD: And his requests were usually obeyed and thought
(25)highly of as a General? What was his prestige?
JUDGE RIAD: Yes, but you are an information officer. You are the (10)person who sees everything. So his status in the army was a high one. • A.: Yes. JUDGE RIAD: Now, you mentioned that he took, in fact, very strong positions. He did it with the Croats, apparently, and he saved -- he saved Croats. I won't go into the details again. Was that taken against (15)him? • A.: Yes. I said many people, ordinary people, and even some of the troops were against this, because this was already in 1993 when the combat was very intensive, and this did not affect a small group but an entire municipality inhabited by Croats, their soldiers, and equipment. And he (20)helped them, both the civilians and the military, to go to Sokolac, and from there on, where they wanted. And I remember there were people saying, "Who does he think he is to be able to transfer Croatian soldiers?" It wasn't really something that they applauded. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: He did that to save them from the Muslims.
JUDGE RIAD: Did he do something on the other side, to save Muslims from Croats? • A.: Yes. He saved some Muslims. The village of Crna Rijeka, at the (5)Nisic plateau, a little later they too came to Sokolac. So I remember that they were accommodated right next to the Croats. There were no other facilities that were close by. So minor arguments, disputes, occurred between them but a stop was put to it. JUDGE RIAD: And in this instance, also, was he looked upon as (10)having acted in some kind of unorthodox way, in a way that was not so nationalistic? Was he reproached by his superiors? I'm not talking about his inferiors but the great authorities. Do you know if he was blamed or discarded or anything? • A.: Officially he was not charged; I don't believe he was discarded (15)either. Only by public opinion, the general public, and some soldiers who disapproved, until he explained why this was necessary, and then he calmed them down. But we were always involved in combat. There was a war going on, things were happening, so there wasn't much time always to think about things in detail. (20) JUDGE RIAD: Yes, but there would be a policy, a line of policy, perhaps, to bring up someone and to bring down someone. So General Krstic belonged to which one?
• A.: I think he was put down precisely as a result of politics. He
didn't deserve it. He should have continued advancing in his career and
(25)he should have been the main commander of the Serb army. That is my
JUDGE RIAD: Don't you think the fact that he replaced Zivanovic at an early age was a sign of appreciation? And President Karadzic praised him as a great officer, in spite of you saying that he had this (5)precedent of being kind to both Croats and Muslims. • A.: Yes, but they expressed their appreciation only on television. JUDGE RIAD: Just in passing, my last question: You just mentioned Beara. You said he was present at Zepa and he conducted negotiations. What was his relationship with General Krstic? (10) • A.: I don't think they had a good relationship. That was my impression. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much, Witness D/C. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Judge Fouad Riad. (15)Madam Judge Wald, if you please. JUDGE WALD: Thank you. Witness D/C, I have only two questions. Do you remember the date or approximately the time that Beara was in Zepa? I know you were there sometime from the 13th of July to the 2nd of August, I think. Can you (20)place the time that he was there within that framework? • A.: Within that framework, the 13th/14th, I didn't see him. But I think on the 15th onwards. JUDGE WALD: So you saw him several times from the 15th on, when he was involved in negotiations -- (25)
• A.: Yes, yes.
• A.: No, I did not hear them. My units had its active combat operations underway, and Zepa, they call it the municipality of Zepa, but (20)it's an enormous area with no electricity. We didn't actually have the means by which to hear about it, and we didn't have time to listen to anything like that. Events followed each other in rapid succession. We had to move all the time, so that nobody talked about that. We didn't discuss anything like that. (25)
JUDGE WALD: Is that true all the way through to August 2nd -- by
• A.: No, no. Yes, that's right. We heard something later on, much later on, but we didn't pay attention. Nobody mentioned any figures of that kind for the victims. And even when people started talking about it, we didn't believe it, and that's how the years passed. And now it would (10)appear that it actually did take place. JUDGE WALD: Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, Judge Wald. Witness D/C, I have a few questions for you as well. You said that the Information Service [redacted] had as its (15)objective to furnish a realistic image of the situation. Now, what do you mean by "realistic, a realistic image"? What does that mean to you?
• A.: I wish to say that it was our task to show the realistic state of
affairs in the encirclement -- immediate encirclement and further off in
the unit, in the state, in the country, outside the borders of the former
(20)Yugoslavia. But they were information which we -- the information we
reproduced was the information that we received from the Corps command,
which was our Superior Command. And even if we heard something by the way
or learned something by the way, we were not allowed and were not able to
convey that to the soldiers. It was only official information that we
(25)received from our Superior Commands that we had the right to pass on to
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] What, therefore, in order to construct that reality, was the place or the role of radiowaves and the mass media that you mentioned? (5) • A.: Well, the role of the mass media on public opinion was not considered too much because different stations put out different information, and different television stations would present the same event in a different way. So that that information was not reliable information. Of course, the soldiers could listen to all the different (10)media. But as morally ourselves, that's what we called ourselves, we had to indicate and guide them towards seeing what was true and what was false, and in order to do this, we received instructions from our Superior Command. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Your service, did it diffuse (15)information to the media as well? Did you supply the media with information? • A.: Yes, we were able to inform the media about the situation in our unit, how far we were moving, how we were holding our positions. We did have cooperation with local information media, and for this information to (20)be channelled towards state television, this was done, once again, through the Superior Command.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] When you say that information
via the media were not trustworthy, how were you able to trust whether
they were trustworthy or not? How were you able to arrive at that
(25)conclusion as to trustworthiness?
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] In this process of constructing reality, building up a picture of reality, did you try to take in information from, may I say, the enemy side? • A.: Yes. There was information via the media from the enemy side, so (15)the Intelligence Organs and Security Organs were in charge of collecting all this information. The work of my own department was in that -- for example, if the enemy side exerted psychological propaganda towards a unit, then we should try and prevent that kind of propaganda if it was false, and for the most part it was false. So that was our task. (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] For example, did you intercept communication between two parties on the enemy side? • A.: Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] What type of interception did you engage in? (25)
• A.: Well, it's difficult for me now to explain what these devices were
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] The people who did these interceptions, were they really preoccupied with informing -- reporting on what they actually heard, on what they really heard? (10) • A.: Well, that was the -- the people who worked on these devices, these people were trained in the area of communications and that was their sole assignment. That's all they -- that's the only thing they knew how to do. Later on it was the Intelligence Organs, Security Organs, who would pass down any relevant information to us and so on, that went down (15)to the units afterwards, after it had been sifted through. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] For example, Witness D/C, imagine the following situation, if you will: You are given a report by somebody and he says, "I've written down what I heard when I intercepted a communication," for example, with regard to a combat, a battle of some (20)kind. What would you do with that report? Would it be a credible, reliable, trustworthy report, or not?
• A.: Not always. It depended on who the person who had intercepted it
was and who had heard it, because there were -- people wanted to plant
different pieces of information; for example, the enemy would like to
(25)plant information and lead us astray. So it would depend on the person
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] And another question: You spoke about the enormous number of deaths when you spoke about the Srebrenica events, the enormous figures that were mentioned. Now, after the 2nd of August, when did you hear for the first time about these events? When was (10)the first time you heard of them? • A.: When I returned from Zepa, I did not hear anything about that because my unit was still engaged in combat activity and holding defensive lines, and the lines were attacked by the Muslims of Olovo and Kladanj. So we were engaged in that defence. So it was October/November when there (15)were certain intimations that something had happened. But as I say, it was only when General Krstic was arrested that we actually learnt of it via the information media, and in different ways we began to hear more and more about all this. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] For example, the zone between (20)Konjevic Polje and Bratunac, that area, is it as populated with respect to -- what was the situation like there? Were there a lot of people living in that area, in Bratunac, for example? Was it a highly-populated area?
• A.: Well, yes, in Bratunac, the town did have a large population. I
(25)went to Srebrenica and Bratunac then for the first time. During the
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So after having learnt about everything that had taken place, that there were hundreds of people who had been killed, who had been transported in cars, who had been interned, (10)and so on, was it possible that all that had taken place without the public knowing, without the people knowing? The general public. I'm not speaking about military men, just the people, the public. Could the people have known? • A.: I don't know. Probably. But why that was not expressed through (15)the public information media. It didn't exist on the Serb media; a little perhaps in the Muslim media. That was the situation right up until two years ago. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] In the general public, if people generally could have known, then people with military authority, could (20)they have known as well or not? • A.: Well, probably some of them did know. But the majority of them did not know.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] You said that you knew General
Krstic well. Do you know whether General Krstic may have shared knowledge
(25)of the existence, or at least the probability of the rumours regarding
• A.: He did not know. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Was he in a position to know to the same extent that the general public knew? • A.: He was not in a position to know because, from the 13th on, he was rarely at Zepa. Fighting was going on. He must have learnt something at some point later on. He was in the command. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] And when you said that he may have known something later, can you tell us when? When you say "later," could you tell us when? • A.: I'm not thinking of a long period of time, but I assume at some point, I assume that somebody must have said what had been going on, (15)because I saw that General Krstic - I don't know how to put it - he was a terribly bitter man. Later on, when he was Corps Commander, I had the impression that he was having problems of some sort, because as the Chief of Staff and as the Corps Commander, after Srebrenica, when the headquarters was in Vlasenica, he would often come to the base of our unit (20)because it was his original unit, and he would often visit the troops. So we had contacts with him. We didn't talk about Srebrenica much. But he was in a rather strange mood. And now that I think back, I think that he felt awfully sorry that this had happened and that he was unable to do anything about it. That is my personal opinion. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] So you are telling us that
• A.: No, not when he became Commander, but much later in 1995, when the (5)active combat ended throughout Republika Srpska. There was some more fighting in Bosnia and Krajina. But I had a feeling that something was wrong. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Witness. You have finished your testimony here in the Tribunal. Thank you very (10)much for coming. I wish to congratulate you once again on your birthday, and I wish you a safe journey to your place of residence. THE WITNESS: [Int.] Thank you very much. I wish to thank this Honourable Tribunal for their hospitality and for their cordiality. (15)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Perhaps you need to wait a few
more minutes because the usher is not here to escort you out. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So, Mr. Petrusic, I see that Mr. Harmon is about to get up. (20)Yes, Mr. Harmon, I think that we have some exhibits to deal with. MR. HARMON: Yes, that's correct. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I'm sorry.
MR. HARMON: Mr. President, we tendered two exhibits in the course
of this examination; one is Prosecutor's Exhibit 791, which is a Bratunac
(25)Brigade casualty report, and one is a new video compilation, Prosecutor's
(10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] The Defence has no objection regarding Exhibit 766, subparts 3, 4, and 5. However, regarding Exhibit 791, it was tendered during the testimony of Witness D/C. This is a report about members of the Bratunac Brigade, and I am trying to discover (15)the reason for tendering this document now because this witness did not speak about individual members of various entities. She identified them on the road from Bratunac to Konjevic Polje as members of the army and the police but not specifically. We can neither contest this list because we are aware of the (20)source. This is just my comment regarding this exhibit. And as for the trustworthiness of this exhibit, the Defence has no doubts at all. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, what is the usefulness and its link with this testimony?
MR. HARMON: This exhibit is offered, Your Honours, for the reason
(25)that this witness testified that on the 13th of July she observed army
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Petrusic. (20)
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] Mr. President, if I may. It is, of
course, up to you to decide, but I feel that reference by Mr. Harmon to
the map drawn for us yesterday should not be linked to this exhibit, the
deployment of units of the Bratunac Brigade on the 14th of July,
following orders of the Commander of that brigade, Vidoje Blagojevic. So
(25)we have spoken about that at length.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] The Chamber rules to admit the two exhibits, 791, and the Chamber will attach probative value as it sees fit to this document; and Exhibit 766/3, /4, and /5 are also admitted. We now have 20 minutes. Do you have a witness, Mr. Petrusic? (10) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Yes, Mr. President, we have two more witnesses for today. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Two for today? But can one stay for tomorrow or do we have to hear them today? If not, we'll divide them up so we have ten minutes for each. (15) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] According to our plan and our schedule, we had expected that Witness D/C's testimony would take much shorter; however, the Prosecutor has obviously many questions to ask, so we have planned two more witnesses. One is in reserve. We have another 20 minutes, so it is up to Your Honours to decide whether we should begin (20)with this witness today. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, let's do that. Yes, let's begin with the witness to make the best of the time. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] This witness has not asked for any protective measures. (25)
THE REGISTRAR: May I please have the name of the next witness for
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Yes. Vlado Rudovic is the name. MR. HARMON: While we're waiting, Mr. President and Your Honours, I have provided to the Defence certain pages of a transcript of an (5)interview with Colonel Trivic, and I would request that those pages now be returned to us and not be disseminated.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes. That was merely for you to
prepare for the re-examination. As far as I know, the Defence has the
statement of this witness, so does the Prosecution, as far as I've been
(10)able to understand.
Yes, we're waiting for the witness. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good afternoon. Can you hear me? (15) THE WITNESS: [Int.] Good afternoon. Yes, I can. Good afternoon. I can. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. You're going to read the solemn declaration that the usher is going to give you, please, Mr. Rudovic. (20) THE WITNESS: [Int.] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
WITNESS: VLADO RUDOVIC
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] You may be seated. Please make
(25)yourself as comfortable as you can. Are you feeling relaxed?
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Thank you very much for coming, Mr. Rudovic. You are going to answer questions which the Defence attorney, Mr. Petrusic, who is standing to your left, is going to (5)put to you, and after that there will be questions from the Prosecutor and the Judges. But now it is Mr. Petrusic. You have the floor, Mr. Petrusic. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. • EXAMINED by Mr. Petrusic: (10) • Q.: Mr. Rudovic, before we start, I know that you're a little nervous, and it is quite natural that you should be, but as the President of the Chamber has already suggested, please relax. At any time you can have a drink of water. And you will see that this is a perfectly normal situation and we will get through it easily. (15)So, Mr. Rudovic, will you please tell us when and where you were born, where you lived, where you're living now; very briefly, your particulars, personal particulars? • A.: Do I need to give the date? The 23rd of September, 1934, in Sokolac, that is where I was born. And I've been living in Han Pijesak (20)since 1952. • Q.: And now I assume you're a pensioner. • A.: Yes, I'm a pensioner living in Han Pijesak. • Q.: Mr. Rudovic, tell us, since when were you a participant in the war? (25)
• A.: You mean this war? This war? That other one or this one, this
• Q.: Very well. Since you've touched upon the subject, tell us, you participated in the Second World War? • A.: Yes. I was a boy then. (5) • Q.: So I assume you were a courier. • A.: Yes, I was young and I was a courier, and I did other such simple tasks. • Q.: What about your participation in this war that started in 1992 and went on to 1995? (10) • A.: I was a participant from the 13th of August, 1992. • Q.: So can it be said that you were mobilised on the 13th of August? • A.: No. I was a volunteer. • Q.: You were quite well-advanced in age. • A.: Yes, I was getting along, but I wanted to be a volunteer. I was (15)forced to be a volunteer. • Q.: What were the reasons that prompted you to volunteer to the army of Republika Srpska? • A.: Well, on the 7th of August, 1992, they killed my son, the Muslims, who now call themselves Bosniaks, and this prompted me to take up arms and (20)to go to war. • Q.: So your son was killed in action?
• A.: He was killed in the village. Six of them were killed there; a
woman of 75 or 76, another man of 75 or 76, another one of 70, and they
slit the throat of a total invalid, a young man, and then they killed this
(25)teacher and my son. This was no combat, it was murder. After my son's
• Q.: So when you say that you volunteered, I assume you reported to a military district or the Territorial Defence or whatever it was that was taking in people? (5) • A.: Yes. There was a military district for the able-bodied men, and I volunteered. They registered me. I personally asked for that unit; they didn't assign me to any unit. I asked to join. • Q.: Which unit was it? • A.: The 2nd Romanija Brigade. (10) • Q.: What position were you assigned to? • A.: The position where my son used to be in my place, in my village, Borovine. There is film on that, the killings, the torching. And I joined there. • Q.: So you joined at the beginning of August, that is, the 8th of (15)August, 1992. • A.: No, the 13th of August. • Q.: I beg your pardon. The 13th of August, 1992. Tell us briefly, were there any combat operations there? • A.: There were then and not afterwards for a couple of days, because (20)they captured some people at Veliki Zep, those young soldiers. Then there was negotiations, blackmail; I don't know exactly how much, but about 50 or 60 tonnes of flour, fuel, NAFTA salt, I don't know what, things like that.
• Q.: Mr. Rudovic, please speak more slowly, because of the
(25)interpreters, when answering my questions.
• A.: Yes, the area of the municipality of Han Pijesak. • Q.: And in those villages around Han Pijesak, on one side was Serb (5)villages and on the other, Muslim villages; is that correct? • A.: Yes, correct. That is the line that separates them, because these were not mixed villages as in many other places. They were purely Muslim villages, and over here to the right, Serb villages. Not just the one village, but all villages along an area of 20 kilometres. Why that (10)was so, I don't know. • Q.: Were there armed conflicts at that time between the Muslim army and you, that is, the Serb army, along that line of separation between those villages? • A.: No, not until they attacked that village. There were no (15)operations. But then, after they attacked, the operations started. And these kept attacking, these others defending, and that is how it was. And then the Romanija Brigade came and formed a line; the leadership of the 2nd Romanija formed a line. They pushed them back. This line was in between the villages, you see, so they couldn't approach us, nor could we (20)approach them. There was a distance of some 4 or 5 kilometres between us and the line and between them and the line; the line was in between, in other words. • Q.: So along that line, was there any movement? Were there any combat operations? Was anything happening? (25)
• A.: Of course. There weren't many troops there. They could pass
• Q.: Let us be quite clear about this. So the period you are talking (5)about is the period prior to the formation of the safe area. • A.: I'm talking about 1992. Only 1992. • Q.: When preparing for your testimony, you told me that there was a group of soldiers there who were killed in 1992, at the beginning of 1992. (10)Just a moment, please. Let me finish my question. Then you make a pause of 10 or 20 seconds, and only then give your answer. Please bear this in mind because of the interpreters. So please go ahead.
• A.: This was on the 4th of June. They went to the repeater, Zlovrh;
there was a military repeater there. There were some 15 soldiers there.
(15)Vehicles were carrying fuel and food and I don't know what. They passed
through three villages. Nobody did anything to them, nor did they hurt
anyone, and when they reached that spot, they were killed.
I took part in pulling out the dead. It was a terrible sight; a
normal man couldn't describe it. They were burnt. Casings were pushed
(20)into their eyes and set on fire. I found a woman, a nurse, of 22 or 23,
totally naked, cut across this way and that way, lying dead in the meadow.
And when we pulled out the dead from there, the line fell, and this went
on like that until they attacked Borovine. When they attacked Borovine,
the line moved 4 or 5 kilometres, this line between the villages. And
(25)they kept on with their provocation but we didn't return fire much.
• Q.: So let us go back for a moment to 1992. On the 13th of August, you became a member of the 2nd Romanija Brigade, and you said that in April or May, the Lieutenant Colonel explained to you what a safe area (15)meant. Was this April 1993? • A.: Yes, yes, 1993, because we withdrew in October 1992, and in spring 1993 we went back to our old positions. • Q.: So Lieutenant Colonel Krstic, now General Krstic, his first name is Radislav -- (20) • A.: Yes, yes. • Q.: -- did you meet him for the first time then? • A.: No. I saw him from before because his wife is from Han Pijesak. He was an officer; he served somewhere. But this was the first time I was with him personally, just then. (25)
• Q.: So this was in 1993?
• Q.: At the time he was Commander of the 2nd Romanija Brigade? • A.: Yes. Commander. • Q.: Could you tell us in more detail whether you personally saw him? (5) • A.: When all this was explained to us and what our role should be, that they had been disarmed down there and that we mustn't do anything, that we had to take care, that people could till their land normally, that even Muslims would be allowed to go on tilling their land and that we mustn't hurt them, then I asked him, "Mr. Krstic, do you know that my (10)son's son and my own son were killed? They were not killed, they were murdered." And I said, "You see what it looks like. He kills my son and I mustn't do anything. If he kills my son, I'll kill him too." And he says, "No, you mustn't." He was an officer but I am older. But then he said, "Look, it's a safe area and it must not be done. Is that clear?" I (15)said, "Clear." How can it be clear to me that I can't go there and he can? He can. I'm talking about Krstic, Mr. Krstic. We had quite an argument there. He said to me, "You must not. I don't want to be a war criminal because of the likes of you." And there was a young soldier next to me, and he said, "You mustn't take an eye for (20)an eye and a tooth for a tooth," and he turned around and left. I didn't see Krstic again, and I really can't tell you when it was again -- maybe 1994. Then he was wounded, and after that I didn't see him again until 1995.
• Q.: So when you had that argument with Krstic and when you expressed
(25)your fury, Krstic said that he would not be a criminal because of the
• A.: He said a Serb soldier must be a normal person, he must act normally. "I told you already that no one may attack civilians, but only if they attack you." So I have to wait to be attacked. If I see him (5)armed, I can capture him. "Once you capture him, you can't do this or that to him. You have to hand him over." So there were no problems. They did make incursions, though. There was about 7 kilometres between two positions, and they would pass through there. (10) • Q.: Witness, we will have to stop there and we will continue tomorrow, of course, with the Chamber's permission and because of the working hours which have run out. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, may I take advantage of this opportunity. If we could listen to the tape again. Page 99, rows (15)5 through 13, could corrections be made, please. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Excuse me. I think the interpreters have some difficulties. Could you repeat what you just said? What was your request? What was your remark? MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] My remark relates to the (20)translation at page 99, between rows 5 and 13. I'd rather not go into the details now, but I suggest that the interpreters listen to the tape again and correct the interpretation.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] I think it would be more
practical - I think the interpreters agree with this procedure - that it
(25)is much better for you to put the question and for us to hear the answer
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I would like to take advantage of this afternoon, Mr. President, to look through the transcript, and then I will put my question to the witness again tomorrow. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] That's a good suggestion, yes. You're going to read the transcript and put the question again to the witness. In any event, I thank the interpreters for their willingness to stay on a little longer. (15)So, Mr. Rudovic, we will stop there now and we will have the pleasure of seeing you again tomorrow at 9.20. We will now adjourn. --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.05 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 22nd day of (20)November, 2000, at 9.20 a.m. |
