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/ Colormap • Page 6825 • {1/85} (1)Thursday, 2 November 2000 [Open session] [The witness takes the stand] --- Upon commencing at 9.23 a.m. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning, technical booth, the interpreters; good morning to the Office of the Prosecutor, the Defence counsel. Good morning, General Krstic. We are going to continue the hearing. You are still testifying under oath and you will continue to (10)answer questions put to you by Mr. McCloskey, who is already on his feet. Mr. McCloskey, your witness. MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours, counsel, General Krstic.
WITNESS: RADISLAV KRSTIC
[Resumed] • CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued] • Q.: General Krstic, do you recall in early August, after you say you came back from the Zepa operation, being with President Karadzic in the Bratunac area of responsibility? (20) • A.: No. I was never with President Karadzic in the area of responsibility of the Bratunac Brigade. • Q.: Were you with him somewhere else at this period of time? • A.: No.
• Q.: Do you recall it would have been in early August, right before the
(25)big meeting with the generals, where everyone signed up that document in
• A.: I do not remember that. MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could have Exhibit 792/A, which has been part of the supporting material now and in the Defence possession for (5)several months. If we could put the first page of the exhibit on the ELMO. • Q.: General, if you could take a moment to look at it, especially paragraph 2. This is an August 4 regular combat report from the Bratunac Brigade Command to the Drina Corps Command, signed by the Commander, (10)Vidoje Blagojevic. General, from this document we see, first of all, that there are still enemy groups hiding among the Bratunac Brigade's area of responsibility, but we also see in paragraph 2 that "The President of Republika Srpska and Commander of the Drina Corps were in Srebrenica in (15)the brigade's area of responsibility today." Does that refresh your recollection about your being together with the president? • A.: Mr. McCloskey, I'm telling you the truth. With president Karadzic -- I did not see President Karadzic at all, nor did I know that President Karadzic was in Srebrenica. (20) • Q.: Is this montage or is this -- how do you explain this? • A.: I may perhaps have been in the area of responsibility of the Bratunac Brigade in Konjevic Polje, touring the Engineers Battalion, but in Srebrenica I never met with President Karadzic, before that day, nor on that day, nor after that day. (25)
• Q.: Are you suggesting he would be in Srebrenica and you would be also
• A.: Mladic should have been with him, and he should know where he was, but I really was not with President Karadzic, nor did I know at all that President Karadzic was in Srebrenica. (5) MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could go into private session briefly. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Why, Mr. McCloskey? MR. McCLOSKEY: I got the "Mr. McCloskey." JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Why? MR. McCLOSKEY: I should know "pourquoi" by now. I was going to (10)ask the General briefly about a subject that was part of his interview with Mr. Ruez but was not played publicly.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well. So let us go into
private session for a few moments.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You may continue, Mr. McCloskey. MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could have Exhibit 91/A and B. (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Visnjic.
MR. VISNJIC:
[Int.] Mr. President, before the exhibit,
the new exhibit, is placed on the ELMO, I should just like to draw
attention to a discrepancy in the translation of the sentence which in the
Serbo-Croatian reads and relates to the questions posed by Mr. McCloskey
(25)to General Krstic. I will read it in Serbian, the way the sentence
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much. (10)Mr. McCloskey? MR. McCLOSKEY: It's fine for Translation to have a second look. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Perhaps we could place on the ELMO the B/C/S version so that the interpreters might follow and to try and translate only the part you are referring to, Mr. Visnjic. Could you (15)please be more precise for the benefit of the interpreters which paragraph you're referring to. THE INTERPRETER: Mike, please. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I'm talking about the English version. It is paragraph 2, the fourth paragraph of item 2. (20)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] So in the English version, it is
the paragraph that says:
[In English] "... and the Commander of the DK
... were in Srebrenica, in the brigade's area of responsibility, today." MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Yes. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] It is a typed document in
MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Yes, but we also have the manuscript, the handwritten version, which is much clearer. So what we have here is page 1, which is the translation of the typed version. And (5)then we have another problem, do we? So let's try and deal with the first one. Mr. Usher, will you place on the ELMO Exhibit 792/B, the typed one. MR. McCLOSKEY: If I could make one suggestion. If there is (10)believed to be a possible translation glitch, I believe the appropriate -- I would recommend the way to handle it would be for the Translation Unit to be able to see the document in the context to really double-check if it's correct or not. It's, I think, very difficult for the booth translators to be expected to do that. Also, it takes away some (15)of my time, and I see a large hook in the ceiling being lowered. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, I understand. I agree with your suggestion. But perhaps the translation that you would be given now might prompt you to put other questions. And we are ready to make that correction, to forward the whole document to the Translation Service, (20)which will have the whole context, and then they can check. I quite agree with that. I think there are also other documents that need to be subjected to this kind of verification. So the point has been raised by Mr. Visnjic. You take count of it and you will provide the Translation Service with the document; is that correct, Mr. McCloskey? (25)
MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President.
MR. McCLOSKEY: And I believe we were at the point of General
Krstic was going to review this document, 91A, which is a document the
(5)Defence has had, and General Krstic was at the question regarding -- by
Mr. Ruez. This is a document dated 5/6/August, Main Staff of the army of
Republika Srpska, and involves a meeting of many generals of the VRS and
their statement in support of General Mladic in a -- what appears to be
some sort of a power struggle or dispute with President Karadzic. And I
(10)don't wish to get into all that, but I would like to ask some questions
briefly to General Krstic about this. And I would note the fourth
paragraph down:
"All VRS generals were unanimous in saying that the decision,
taken at the most difficult moment so far, was wrong and that its
(15)implementation would have unforeseeable negative consequences for our
people, our struggle and the army."
And I should have noted that the decision for Radovan Karadzic to
remove General Mladic as the Commander of the VRS and put him in another
position.
(20)And then I would go down farther on the English page where it
states:
"Respected Deputies! The unity of all Serbs is what we need most
today and not conflicts and divisions. We need every man and especially
an army commander like General Ratko Mladic, whose qualities are
(25)recognised by the whole world, including our enemies. Nobody has the
• Q.: General Krstic, you were aware of the mass executions that had been ordered by General Mladic at this time, were you not? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Wouldn't it have been the best thing for the Republika Srpska to (10)get a new general, a general that was not a general that had ordered mass executions in the thousands? Why would you sign a document in support of this general? • A.: Regarding which commander would be appointed to the Chief of Staff of Republika Srpska was something I had no power to decide about. I had (15)to sign this because all the other generals signed it. • Q.: Are you saying you were under some kind of duress to sign this? • A.: I was not under any duress to sign this; however, can you imagine what would have happened to me if I had not signed it? • Q.: Did General Miletic sign it, General Miletic, the deputy chief of (20)the Main Staff, who we've heard about on the intercepts? • A.: I don't know whether General Miletic signed it. He is not here on the list. At the time, he was absent; he was not in Banja Luka. • Q.: He's alive and well, isn't he, General Miletic? • A.: Yes, he's alive and well. (25)
• Q.: And General Bogdan Subotic, General Dusan Kovacevic, General
• A.: Could you please ask me one by one and I will give you my answer. • Q.: General Bogdan Subotic. (5) • A.: He was not in the army of Republika Srpska. • Q.: He was a general? • A.: Yes. He accompanied President Karadzic. He was chief of his cabinet. • Q.: He was part of the Ministry of Defence? (10) • A.: Yes. • Q.: And in this political struggle, you could have -- • A.: No, I'm sorry. He was not a member of the Ministry of Defence. He was head of the military cabinet of the President of the Republic. • Q.: In this political struggle, you could have joined (15)President Karadzic, like these -- like General Subotic? • A.: I am a professional soldier, and I love my profession and I have respect for it. • Q.: General Slavko Lisica, Deputy of the Rajko Vasic Military Academy. He's not on there. (20) • A.: I never saw that general. He was not the deputy of the head of the military academy. At least, I do not recall him being that. I never saw that man. • Q.: A mentioned General Galic, General Stanislav Galic. • A.: General Galic, at the time, was a pensioner. He had retired. (25)
• Q.: Why didn't you just retire, General, when this -- when this all
• A.: In Bosnia-Herzegovina, both my family and the family of my wife reside. I simply could not abandon them nor my sick mother. • Q.: But you did have a choice, didn't you, and you did make a choice? (5) • A.: My choice was to remain where my family was and where I was born, and I stayed till the end, until I was arrested. • Q.: Was that the right choice, General? Did you make the right choice? • A.: I'd rather not answer that question. I don't think it has any (10)meaning. MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 803/A. • Q.: Did you do business with Vujadin Popovic in August of 1995? You've said earlier that he, when you first got back, he was on sick leave. How about later on in August? (15) • A.: Yes, after I had come back from Krajina. I believe that it was sometime in early or mid-September he was at the command. MR. McCLOSKEY: Do we have Exhibit 803/A? You can have mine. • Q.: General, this is an August 17 intelligence report to the Drina Corps Command, to the commander, and for the attention of the Intelligence (20)Department. I believe it's from Momir Nikolic. It mentions Lieutenant Colonel Popovic, Lieutenant Colonel Kosoric, Major Golic. Did you receive this? • A.: No. • Q.: Where were you on August 17th? (25)
• A.: On the 17th of August, I was -- I think that I was on leave. I
• Q.: So the intelligence people didn't know that. They addressed this to you anyway? • A.: As I say, at the time, I was on leave. I was visiting my family. (5) MR. McCLOSKEY: All right. If we now could go to some documents that will help lay the foundation and setting of the ceremony that we've discussed briefly before, and if we could first go -- that ceremony, we will provide documents showing, occurred on the 2nd of December, 1995, but the first exhibit I would like to show the General is Exhibit 780, which (10)is an indictment of President Karadzic and General Mladic for the Srebrenica events of July 1995, and it's dated 14 November 1995 and confirmed 16 November 1995, and it's in English, French, and B/C/S. Could we have Exhibit 780 for the General. And if we could just put the first -- the cover page on is fine for the ... (15) • Q.: General, when did you first become aware that your president and General Mladic had been indicted by the ICTY for the July 1995 crimes associated with Srebrenica? • A.: I cannot recall when it was exactly. • Q.: Was it before the ceremony for the Drina Wolves that occurred on (20)2 December 1995, where you were together with General Mladic on the podium? • A.: I think -- I think that it was later on. MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could have Exhibit 794/1.
• Q.: Now, this is a -- and I'll read it in English -- FBIS text. Are
(25)you familiar with a publication called Politika, a newspaper, a Serbian
• A.: Yes. Yes. They -- this is a Belgrade-based paper. • Q.: And this is another news report, dated 19 November, from the FBIS news service and from the publication Politika, and it states: (5)"A newspaper close to Serbian President Slobodan Milosevic called Sunday on the Bosnian Serbs to prove to the world they did not commit mass genocide during the capture of the Bosnian Muslim enclave in Srebrenica by opening a full inquiry into alleged atrocities. The influential Belgrade daily Politika urged the Serbs to launch the probe into the July offensive (10)into Srebrenica, in a sign that Belgrade may be trying to distance itself further from its Serb brethren in Bosnia and even sacrifice the beleaguered Bosnian Serb leadership to the peace process." And it goes on and talks about Srebrenica and related issues. Were you aware of this article or articles similar to it in the Serb press (15)regarding the Srebrenica situation and how governments and journalists were reacting to the allegations? • A.: There were very few articles like that. I really can't remember this one, for example. I very rarely had an opportunity to read Politika at all -- not only Politika; any other newspaper -- and they very rarely (20)reached us.
• Q.: This particular article went on to say that:
"The incident prompted the International Criminal Tribunal on War
Crimes in Former Yugoslavia, currently in session in The Hague, to issue
fresh charges last week against Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karadzic and
(25)army chief Ratko Mladic for their part in the alleged genocide, with
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Sorry. Mr. Visnjic. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I didn't wish to interrupt my learned colleague, Mr. McCloskey, but since we are now (5)talking about the details regarding this article, I must say that the Defence has not been provided with the Serbian translation of the article. So if we continue with the specificities of this article, we're going to have a problem because the General doesn't have a translation and we don't have a translation either. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. McCloskey, the article was not published in English in Belgrade, of course. MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. We just -- we found this recently, Mr. President, and the only point from this really -- I have two points from this article: One, that it was -- the first part I read; and the (15)second is the part about announcing the indictment, and I asked him whether or not he heard this. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, I understand, but then in that case your question should be a more general one. If you want the General to interpret the article, then, of course, he will need a (20)translation into B/C/S. MR. McCLOSKEY: All I wanted to ask him about is if he heard through the news about the indictment.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes, because I think that, for
the purposes of your objective, it is not necessary to have the article;
(25)you can simply ask the General if he knew about it or not.
MR. McCLOSKEY: • Q.: General, did you -- had you heard announced in the press the indictment of General Mladic and General Karadzic at about this time of (5)November 19th or later? • A.: No, Mr. McCloskey. I heard it only when a campaign was launched as to whether Mr. Karadzic will remain in political arena or not, and that happened after the signing of the Dayton Accords. MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could have Exhibit 783/A. (10) • Q.: General, were you aware that Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic had been indicted earlier for other crimes by the ICTY? We're not quite to this exhibit yet, General, so if you could just concentrate on that question. • A.: I don't remember. It was only later on that I learned about it. (15) • Q.: All right. Now, this exhibit, 782/A, is a Srpska Vojska article, dated 28 December. It's different from the article we saw before, but on the second paragraph it states: "The fighters under the command of Milan Jolovic were paraded on 2 December in Vlasenica." And General, if you could take just a look at just the first (20)couple of paragraphs of that, and is this an article about the parade that we discussed earlier where you gave a speech, Mladic gave a speech? • A.: The title page and the one that follows refer to the ceremony which was organised when one of the professional brigades of the VRS was established, for that occasion. (25)
• Q.: So as far as you know, this is an accurate article that this
• A.: Yes. (5) MR. McCLOSKEY: And we should have the video of that, a highlighted version of the video. We have just given certain portions of it because the whole video is not necessary. So we should have certain portions of that video. But perhaps if we could direct the Court's attention to Exhibit 367/A, which is the transcript of words that General (10)Krstic said that were reflected on the tape. These are the total that we have in our possession, and it just is background reading material, nothing of major significance in those words. But if they could have that in front of them, that would save us a little time. And if the booth could get ready to play the video. (15) • Q.: General, if you could please try to watch the video as we play it because I will ask you a couple of questions about it. MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go ahead and play that. THE INTERPRETER: Mr. McCloskey, do you want the booth to interpret the tape? (20)
MR. McCLOSKEY: No. The booth doesn't need to try to interpret.
These are just little segments to give just a feeling for the ceremony. MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could have Exhibit 756. • Q.: General, this is ... (25)
MR. McCLOSKEY: We could get -- you've cut off a bit of the man
• Q.: General, this is a still of the opening shot that we just saw when General Mladic and others are walking up to Legenda, whose back is to us. Who is the man behind you? (5) • A.: The man who came with General Mladic from the Main Staff, Ljubo Beara. • Q.: Did you speak to Ljubo Beara that day? • A.: I don't remember if I did. • Q.: Did you speak to General Mladic that day? (10) • A.: I was on the stage, together with General Mladic, and I was amongst the public, with the population; and after that, we were at the hotel where Mladic received families of the killed soldiers. • Q.: Did you discuss with him his recent indictment by the ICTY for the Srebrenica events? (15) • A.: No, Mr. McCloskey. • Q.: Was the 10th Diversionary Unit at that same ceremony? • A.: Yes. The ceremony was organised by the Command of the Main Staff. MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we have Exhibit 147 placed on the ELMO? (20) • Q.: This is another still from that video. Are these members of the 10th Diversionary Unit? • A.: I don't know. I don't know any member of the 10th Diversionary Unit. • Q.: General, are these the 10th Diversionary Unit? (25)
• A.: Yes. They are wearing black uniforms. It's them.
• A.: I already told you, the ceremony was organised by the Main Staff, and it was the Main Staff who decided which units would take part in the (5)ceremony and not the Drina Corps Command. So they did not come upon an invitation by the Drina Corps Command. The whole procedure, the whole ceremony, was organised by the Main Staff, and one can see on the tape that it was led and chaired by General Mladic. MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I see that it's break time. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Mr. McCloskey. We will have a 15-minute break at this point. --- Recess taken at 10.15 a.m. --- On resuming at 10.31 a.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You may continue, Mr. McCloskey, (15)please. MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. Now, if we could go to OTP Exhibit 4821A, which is the complete version of the Srpska Vojska article 28 December 1995 that we had referred to in part a day or two ago. I'm sorry, 482/A, not 1A -- bis. And if (20)the -- could we have a B/C/S version? • Q.: General, the order of the speeches, as I think you told us before -- and if we could let the General see the article again -- the order was Jolovic, yourself, and then General Mladic? • A.: Yes. (25)
• Q.: And if we could go right near the end of the article, General, to
• A.: Yes. That was at the meeting in Bratunac on the 12th. (20) • Q.: What was the agreement? • A.: Representatives of the Muslim people expressed the wish to be transported to the territory under the control of the government of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina.
• Q.: And most of the women and children were, in fact, transported on
(25)the 12th and 13th; is that correct?
• Q.: So did those Muslims ever go back on any agreement with the VRS? • A.: I don't know about that. • Q.: Did they or did they not go back on an agreement with the VRS? (5) • A.: I don't quite understand. Do you mean after they left to the territory under the control of the government of Bosnia-Herzegovina or in the course -- or in the course of the transportation on the 12th and the 13th of July? • Q.: Did those Muslim women and children and some old men go back on (10)some agreement that they had made to leave? • A.: I don't know. • Q.: General, do you think they actually had a choice whether or not to leave? • A.: They decided to leave. (15) • Q.: Of their own free will? • A.: I cannot give you an answer as to whether it was of their own free will. I can only tell you about what happened at the meeting, and I've already told you that. MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 743/A. (20) • Q.: General, if you could take some time to familiarise with this article that has been provided to the Defence three months ago.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Mr. McCloskey, perhaps it would
be better to put the question to the General and then the General will see
whether he needs to study the article. If it is a general question, the
(25)General knows the interview he granted. If there are details you wish to
MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. • Q.: First of all, General Krstic, this article is dated 25 August (5)1995. Do you recall giving an interview to Borislav Djurdjevic from Srpska Vojska? • A.: I don't remember that it was on that particular day, but that I did give an interview, I surely did. • Q.: Do you have any reason to doubt the accuracy or authenticity of (10)this interview? • A.: I cannot express now any doubts or suspicions regarding the authenticity of this text now because it was a long time ago. • Q.: Let me ask you specifically a couple of questions about some questions and answers. The first question, for example, which is: (15)"Q. General, let me take this opportunity to congratulate you on your great victories which you achieved immediately after you assumed the post of Corps Commander. To begin with, can you explain the new military situation since the liberation of Srebrenica and Zepa? • A.: Thank you. However, I am not the only one responsible for (20)this success. Credit should be given to all the soldiers and officers of the Drina Corps, the people in our zone of responsibility, and especially to General Mladic." Now, did you have to praise General Mladic in this article that goes to VRS troops? (25)
• A.: Mladic was in charge of it all. It wasn't any special praise of
• Q.: Did you have to praise him in this article as you did? Did you have to, like you had to sign the document in support of him with the other generals? (5) • A.: I still did not have any knowledge as to what had happened after the liberation of the area of Srebrenica. • Q.: I'll go on reading: "Thanks to the high morale of our fighters, as well as the skillful and professional command and control on the part of the brigade commanders, the officers in the Drina Corps Command, the (10)area of Srebrenica and Zepa was liberated in a very short time. It is now free Serbian territory. As a result, the territory of Republika Srpska has become even more compact and considerably larger in percentage. The victories in Srebrenica and Zepa have released forces previously deployed around the enclaves so that they can be used in other areas. We have (15)brought peace and calm to the population, which does not have to fear Ustasha pogroms any more." Who are you referring to as "Ustasha"? • A.: It referred to what had happened in the area during the Second World War and not to the army of the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina. This (20)was a war. As we were for them the enemy, they too were the enemy for us. • Q.: "Ustasha" is not a complimentary way of describing anyone in 1995, is it?
• A.: Yes, but the war was still going on. It's not complimentary to
(25)use the term such as "Chetniks" or "Balijas."
• Q.: The question that starts near the middle of the page with "It was agreed ..." (5)"Q. It was agreed during the negotiations with the Muslim authorities in Srebrenica and, later, in Zepa that the Muslim population could choose whether to stay or to leave, and that the Muslim fighters would surrender without resistance. They went back on their word in both cases. Did they make that decision on their own, or were they obeying (10)orders from Sarajevo?" In the case of Srebrenica, did the Muslim fighters ever agree to lay down their arms? • A.: No. As we have seen during the trial, they did not agree, but General Mladic was explicit in his demand that they lay down their arms, (15)and he requested this from the UNPROFOR command and from the representatives of the Muslim people who attended the meeting.
• Q.: And your answer to this question is:
"We offered the Muslim authorities the solution which was most
honourable for them. They accepted the solution according to which they
(20)could choose to stay or to leave, and their soldiers had to lay down their
arms unconditionally. Why did they go back on their word? There were
probably two reasons for that: first, such an outcome of the negotiations
between the local authorities and the representatives of our army and our
State did not suit Izetbegovic and his clique. He used a media campaign
(25)to make the inhabitants of the enclaves look like martyrs in order to
• A.: Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. McCloskey, I apologise for (10)interrupting you. General Krstic, when you were at the meeting at the Fontana Hotel, did you have the impression that the Muslims who were there were the authorities in the sense you referred to them here? You said, "We offered the Muslim authorities ..." At the meeting at the Fontana Hotel in (15)Bratunac, did you have the impression that the Muslim authorities were there at the meeting? • A.: Yes, Mr. President. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So at the time, you were convinced that Mr. Mandzic, the lady, and the other lady who were there (20)were the Muslim authorities; is that what I should conclude from what you're saying?
• A.: Yes. Mr. President, I didn't know at the time who were the people
in power in Srebrenica municipality. The fact that they came there was,
for me, an indication that they represented the authorities of the Muslim
(25)people.
(5) • A.: Mr. President, I heard that at the meeting, but it is a fact that they came as representatives. Perhaps they were elected and sent there by the authorities to represent them there. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Thank you, General. You may continue, Mr. McCloskey. (10) JUDGE WALD: I have one question. A few days ago, and I'm sorry, I can't find the exact point in the transcript at this point, but a few days ago when we were talking about the meetings at Fontana, I think that you testified that you were worried, or at least you had questions in your mind when you left that meeting, how those people, Mr. Mandzic and the (15)woman, were going to get in touch with the army in order for the army to make a decision on General Mladic's proposal. So when you're talking now about your thinking that these people represented the Muslim authorities, are you drawing a distinction between the civilians and the army? Because you did testify a couple of days ago that even you had questions in your (20)mind how these two people, the woman and the man, were going to be able to get in touch with the army. I'm confused about exactly how you felt about them and their authority.
• A.: Your Honour, I abide by what I said, that I wondered in my mind
how these people would be able to get in touch with the commanders, the
(25)commanding officers of the 28th Division, and ensure what General Mladic
JUDGE WALD: But then if that was true and you wondered about that, how could you be assured that they were there, authorised to make this, quote, you know, "agreement"? (5) • A.: I answered the question put to me by the President, whether they came to the meeting to represent their people, and I said the fact that they came, I continued to be convinced that they represented the authorities, or somebody from the authorities had sent them to the meeting. (10) JUDGE WALD: Okay. MR. McCLOSKEY: • Q.: General Krstic, we've heard from Colonel Karremans that the people in the enclaves were starving and they had no medicines and it was a very difficult situation. Do you disagree with him on that? (15) • A.: I think that we analysed one document during the examination-in-chief by the Defence, and we saw that in one of the documents -- we saw from one of the documents that a large amount of foodstuffs were brought to Srebrenica, a large amount of supplies, at one point. I cannot contest what Colonel Karremans testified about; however, (20)I'm somewhat surprised by his statement, in light of the fact that we saw from a document, a document that was issued by the BH army, the 28th Division, what supplies had reached Srebrenica. MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go into private session briefly.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] For the same reason that was
(25)invoked a moment ago?
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes. Let us go into private
session for a moment. (20) MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to -- JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, you may continue.
MR. McCLOSKEY: -- Exhibit 709/A. Now, this is a 14 July
[sic]
communication from the General Staff of the army of Republika Srpska from
General Mladic to the attention of the Drina Corps, Logistics Sector of
(25)the General Staff of the army of Republika Srpska, copy to the 1st Zvornik
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I think Mr. Visnjic said the document was not dated 14 July but 14 September. Was that why you're on your feet, Mr. Visnjic? (5) MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Yes, Mr. President. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well, then. A correction will be made. MR. McCLOSKEY: Pardon me, Mr. President, 14 September. • Q.: And is says, "This is to approve 5 tons of d-2 diesel fuel for (10)carrying out engineering works in the zone of responsibility of the Drina Corps. The Logistics Sector of the General Staff of the army of Republika Srpska shall deliver the fuel to the Standard barracks in Zvornik, to Captain Milorad Trpic. Captain Trpic shall be responsible for the accurate maintenance of the records on the number of engine work hours of (15)engineering machines and account accordingly for consumption of fuel." Now, we've heard about a Captain Milorad Trpic. Do you know Captain Milorad Trpic? • A.: No. • Q.: He is a security officer for the Zvornik Brigade, as we've learned (20)in this trial. Did you have notice of this large requisition of diesel fuel signed by General Mladic?
• A.: Let me answer -- try and answer your question. During the trial
here, I heard from you that Trpic was with the Security Organ of the
Zvornik Brigade, but I must say I didn't know the man. I've never heard
(25)of him.
• Q.: This document is directed to the Drina Corps Command, is it not? • A.: Yes. (10) • Q.: What would the Zvornik Brigade need to do with 5 tons of diesel fuel after September 14, 1995? • A.: It doesn't say the Command of the Zvornik Brigade. The fuel was sent to a person, to a certain individual. I don't know what that fuel would be used for by that individual. I really don't know that. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. McCloskey, I'm sorry to interrupt you. General, in case of a shortage of fuel, do you have any idea as to the significance of this amount of fuel, 5 tons of fuel? Is it a lot, a little? Is it a huge amount of fuel? Bearing in mind the situation of (20)shortage of fuel, what does it mean? • A.: Well, when it comes to the Drina Corps and every operative formation of that level, this is not a very big amount. These are actually -- this is a very little quantity which cannot satisfy the needs of one brigade. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you, General.
MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. • Q.: Is this enough fuel for bulldozers to work for 30 hours and for trucks to move bodies 50 kilometres? Maybe 50 trucks, 50 kilometres back (5)and forth? It's enough for that, isn't it? • A.: I don't know that, Mr. McCloskey. I don't know whether it's enough or not. Those who did it would know about that. • Q.: You think this was the fuel used for the reburials? • A.: I don't know, Mr. McCloskey, but something is obviously wrong. (10) • Q.: What's wrong? • A.: Well, something is wrong because it was not sent to the Command of the Zvornik Brigade but to a particular individual, to a person who did not have any command duty within the brigade, any special commanding role within the brigade. (15) • Q.: And this would have been clear to anyone at the Drina Corps that received this document on the 14th of September, 1995? • A.: Maybe the Logistics Organ of the Drina Corps received this, but they did not have any obligations regarding it. MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, if we could go into private session (20)briefly on a point regarding the last exhibit.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes. Let us go into private
session for a moment.
(25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] I think, Mr. McCloskey, that it
MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. But first, if I could tell you that we have no further questions for General Krstic. JUDGE WALD: Congratulations. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Oh, that is very good news. So that means that you have completed your cross-examination. Is that truly so? MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, it is so. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So it's a good idea to say so (10)now because, after the break, you could reconsider and have some more questions. So we've come to the end of the cross-examination by the Prosecution, and we're now going to have a break, and we will resume with a Defence witness. Is that correct, Mr. Petrusic and Mr. Visnjic? Do you (15)have a witness ready? MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Yes, Mr. President. That is correct. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I see that General Krstic has something to say. General? (20) THE ACCUSED: Your Honour, I do apologise, but I would like to have all my documents with me, among others, my telephone book and my other personal documents, my medical documents, including the death certificate of my mother, and I would like my briefcase to be returned to me. I don't know what else was in it. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes, General Krstic. I think
--- Recess taken at 11.30 a.m.
--- On resuming at 11.50 a.m. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Visnjic, I think that this witness has protective measures that have been granted. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I was just getting ready to suggest protective measures, and the Trial Chamber, I hope, will not mind. It's a question of protecting the witness' name. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] What are the reasons, Mr. Visnjic? MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, the witness came voluntarily -- JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I'm sorry. Not yet, please. (20) MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, the witness has come to the Tribunal of his own free will and he fears the consequences of the statements that he will make, as he was a member of the army of Republika Srpska.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Mr. Cayley, I think it's your
(25)turn.
(5) MR. CAYLEY: Yes. As I suspected, we simply leave the matter in your hands and we certainly have no objection to the witness having protective measures. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Visnjic, if I understand correctly, you're asking a pseudonym to protect the identity of the (10)witness; is that right? MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Yes, Mr. President. A pseudonym and facial distortion, but not voice.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well. Let me consult with
my colleagues. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Bearing in mind the reasons given by the Defence, and in view of the non-objection on the part of the Prosecutor, and also bearing in mind that this is an exceptional situation, the Chamber decides to grant the Defence request so that the (20)witness will benefit from these protective measures. So we are now in a position to hear the witness. We have to pull down the blinds for a few minutes so that the witness can be brought in. And how are you going to call the witness, Mr. Visnjic? What will be the pseudonym? (25)
MR. VISNJIC:
[Int.] Mr. President, he will be Defence
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Cayley. MR. CAYLEY: Excuse me, Mr. Visnjic. It's purely a procedural matter in calling the witness Witness A. The Prosecutor also has a (5)Witness A, and I seem to remember in the last case in which I was involved we simply went through the alphabet. When we got to the end of the alphabet, we had Witness AA. I make this point for the purposes of final trial brief. It may get somewhat confusing for those people who are reading it if there are two Witness As, so I would respectfully suggest (10)that perhaps we carry on going through the alphabet rather than using the same pseudonym for a Prosecution and Defence witness. THE REGISTRAR: Or we could call them "DA." MR. CAYLEY: I was making a suggestion to the Judges rather than -- (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I did not ask you for your opinion, Ms. Krystal. Of course, it is always welcome, as you know. What is your suggestion, Ms. Krystal, now? THE REGISTRAR: I think we could begin with DA and continue like that. (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. I think that perhaps it is a suggestion that we could accept, so as to add for all these witnesses letter D, indicating Defence, and after that A; and if we should need to go back to the beginning of the alphabet, then we could say DAA. Do you agree with that? I see that Judge Wald does not agree. (25)
JUDGE WALD: No, no. I only dreaded the notion that we'd get that
MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, a possible -- I realise you don't want
to spend a lot of time on this because you've got to get on with the
witnesses, but a possible suggestion, I think the Prosecutor finished with
(5)Witness DD. We could actually then go to Witness EE, which would be the
first Defence witness. That's purely an alternative suggestion, or you
can move ahead with the suggestion of the registrar. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] We have a very important matter (10)to decide upon, so we are deciding that we shall begin with DA as the first witness. So the next one will be DB, and so on. And then we will know immediately that it is a Defence witness rather than a Prosecution witness. So this witness will have the pseudonym DA. Is that all right for the registrar? Madam Registrar? (15) THE REGISTRAR: Yes, that is fine. MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I get up and immediately start causing trouble. The only problem with this is there will be two Witness DDs because we have a Witness DD. We've used the whole alphabet. But maybe we can just miss out DD. There's going to be two Witness DDs. (20) JUDGE RIAD: I believe the suggestion of our registrar is a good one, but we should have started it from the beginning. So perhaps if you continue now with the suggestion EE, that will be perhaps would be more clear.
MR. CAYLEY: Perhaps what I would suggest is if we move ahead with
(25)what the president has already said DA, DB, but we miss out DD because the
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So it must be said that it is not true that as soon as you get up, you create problems. No. You're helping us a great deal. You are right. According to this solution, we (5)would begin with DE. MR. CAYLEY: We would begin with DA, then we would move to DB, then DC, and then we would miss out DD because we've already used that. The Prosecutor has a witness who has the pseudonym DD. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. So do we agree now? (10)We have a compromise solution. That's fine. Wait a minute. There's something else that needs to be said. In order to organise our work, I think we should go on until half past twelve, and then we can have a shorter lunch break. Instead of one hour, we would have three-quarters of an hour to optimise the use of time. (15)I see that some people are going to protest, but perhaps exceptionally today we will work for half an hour now, until half past twelve, and after that, we will have a break of three-quarters of an hour instead of one hour to make the best of the time available. Can we have the witness brought in now, Mr. Visnjic. (20)
MR. VISNJIC:
[Int.] Yes, Mr. President. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Witness, can you hear me? THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] We are not going to use your
(25)name, as a protective measure. You're now going to read the solemn
THE WITNESS: [Int.] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
WITNESS: WITNESS DA JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You may be seated. THE WITNESS: [Int.] Thank you very much. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] The registrar, I think, has prepared a piece of paper with your name on it. So please tell us yes or (10)no; is that your name? THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Thank you very much for coming, Witness. You are now going to answer questions which the Defence counsel has for you, and after that, there will be questions from (15)the Prosecution and the Judges. But it is now Mr. Visnjic's turn. Mr. Visnjic, your witness. And the usher can lift the blinds now. • EXAMINED by Mr. Visnjic: • Q.: Good morning, Witness DA. (20) • A.: Good morning.
• Q.: I will be asking questions, but since we speak the same language,
will you please make a pause between my questions and your answers so as
to facilitate the task of the interpreters to do their job correctly and
in time.
(25)Witness DA, when did you become a member of the army of Republika
• A.: I became a member of the VRS at the beginning of the war operations in the former Bosnia-Herzegovina or, to be more precise, in May 1992. (5) • Q.: Until mid-1994, were you the Assistant Commander for Morale, Religious, and Legal Affairs in the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade? • A.: Yes. I held the position of Assistant Commander for Morale, Religious and Legal affairs in the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade. • Q.: As of June 1994, were you transferred to a new duty in the Command (10)of the Drina Corps? • A.: Yes. I was transferred to the Drina Corps Command, to the press centre of this unit. • Q.: So it was the press centre of the Drina Corps Command based in the Command of the Drina Corps in Vlasenica, isn't that so? (15) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Witness DA, while acting as the Assistant Commander for Morale, Legal Affairs and Information in the 2nd Romanija Motorised Brigade, could you briefly explain to Their Honours what were your duties and obligations as part of your duties? (20)
• A.: My obligations were prescribed by the rules of service of the army
of Republika Srpska, and they primarily had to do with cooperation with
the civilian authorities, keeping the fighters in the brigade units
informed or providing information to them about the situation on the front
lines, about the political situation and the policies of the European
(25)countries and the International Community towards us.
• A.: Yes. • Q.: Could you make a pause, please. (5) • A.: Yes. One of my duties, as evident from the very name of my position, which was to be assistant for religious affairs. • Q.: What did that imply? • A.: It implied cooperation with clergymen, with the metropolitan of Bosnia, who was at the time expelled from Sarajevo and who happened to be (10)residing in Zvornik, which was in the area of responsibility of our brigade. Our cooperation was very good, excellent. The clergy would come to our festivities held on the occasion of holidays. Occasionally, they would visit the combatants on the front lines. This was done by the (15)district bishops in the area of responsibility of the brigade as well as other clergymen, the Dabro Bosanski metropolitan Nikolaj; the Zvornik-Tuzla metropolitan, Bishop Vasilije; and the metropolitan of Australia. • Q.: Tell me, within the framework of your duties related to legal (20)affairs, what did they consist of?
• A.: I can tell you that, in that area, I had the least work to do. We
took measures against fighters who arbitrarily abandoned their units.
Disciplinary measures were pronounced against them, and the only more
serious measure or proceeding was conducted in relation to Major Suka,
(25)who, for reasons of negligence or for some other reasons, I don't know, at
(5) • Q.: Apart from the duties that are evident from the name of the position you held, did you have any other assignments outside the framework of your obligations as prescribed by the rules and regulations? • A.: I occasionally had contact with representatives of UNPROFOR units, and particularly when convoys were passing for the safe areas of Gorazde, (10)Srebrenica, and Zepa. Most frequently, I would receive orders in such cases from General Gvero, occasionally from General Milovanovic, to make sure that the convoy would pass safely through our area of responsibility. They probably engaged me because of my knowledge of foreign languages, because I am -- I can speak almost all the Slav (15)languages and Italian. On the whole, we cooperated well with those people. And I would have nothing more to add. • Q.: This particular duty was carried out by yourself pursuant to the orders which were coming from the Main Staff? • A.: What are you referring to? (20) • Q.: Well, I'm referring to your duties relevant to the passages of convoys. • A.: Yes. • Q.: Independently of your function that you have within the brigade. • A.: Yes. (25)
• Q.: In 1994, did you take up a new duty within the command of the
• A.: I was involved exclusively with the information affairs; more precisely, I continued with the kind of work that I was doing at the level (5)of the brigade. Because, you see, you must understand that Republika Srpska, at the beginning of the war, was left without media, which was a major shortcoming when it came to spreading the truth about the struggle of our people, about our just struggle of our people. So in the course of those war years, we had to establish a TV station, a Serbian radio. We (10)had to start from scratch and we had to set up also local radio stations in order to -- to the extent it was possible -- to fill the vacuum which had been caused in the area of media in general. • Q.: What agencies did you cooperate with at that time? • A.: Since I used to work as a journalist before the war, I had (15)friends, I had colleagues, people I used to work with, everywhere throughout the former Yugoslavia. However, our cooperation was mainly focused on the Serbian TV station at Pale; the Serb radio also located at Pale; the Radio Romanija, located at Sokolac; Radio Vlasenica; Radio Milici; Radio Sekovici; Radio Zvornik; Radio Banja Luka; Radio Belgrade; (20)Belgrade Television -- • Q.: I'm sorry. I have to interrupt you. Were there any foreign agencies amongst them?
• A.: Yes. The major TV stations, such as the CNN, CBS, Reuters and
others, did show interest for reporting from our parts, and we had an
(25)excellent cooperation with them. We also had cooperation with the Greek
(5) • Q.: As part of your duties as an information officer, did you have any knowledge about the situation in protected areas, bearing in mind the fact that all three protected zones were within the area of responsibility of the Drina Corps, either partially or entirely? • A.: Our information activities were going along several lines, first (10)of all towards our units, our troops, and our people; and on the other hand, we had activities towards protected areas. As regards the knowledge about the situation in protected areas, such knowledge could be obtained through intelligence data and also through contacts with the population, with those residents who wanted to leave the protected areas at any cost. (15)We also used the media of the other side, of course pointing to the false information that they were attempting to spread. We always made sure that we reported in an objective manner, when it comes both to our domestic audience and to the International Community. • Q.: Did you have any information, any knowledge, about the activities (20)of the BiH army from the protected areas?
• A.: We did have knowledge about their activities, but we certainly
felt their activities in a military sense, because they engaged in
constant fire; they opened fire constantly along the separation line, the
separation line which was the boundary of the so-called protected areas.
(25)But one must say that those areas were never really protected ones; that
(5) THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. Microphone, please. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] • Q.: Were there any troop movements between the safe areas of Srebrenica and Zepa, and also between the safe areas and the territory which was under the control of the BH army? (10) • A.: See, one usually talks about the safe areas of Srebrenica and Zepa, but those two safe areas were actually never separated. Throughout the war, we never managed to establish a combat line between those two safe areas, so that the Muslim units from Srebrenica and Zepa communicated, that is, engaged in various movements from Zepa to (15)Srebrenica and vice versa. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Cayley. MR. CAYLEY: My apologies to Mr. Visnjic for interrupting, but for about the last two or three pages there haven't been any dates. I just wondered if perhaps the witness could clarify the time periods that he's (20)talking about when he's addressing these various subjects. Excuse me.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] You are right, Mr. Cayley.
Mr. Visnjic, all this information that we have just heard from the
witness should be somehow linked with places and dates. Otherwise, we
will get lost in the story. I hope that you have understood the objection
(25)and the comment made by Mr. Cayley. So you should perhaps bear that in
MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] • Q.: Witness DA, could you give a more precise explanation to the Court (5)as to the time period that you were referring to. • A.: I'm referring to the period of time from the beginning of war operations until the proclamation of so-called safe areas. Practically speaking, until the end of the war in the former Bosnia and Herzegovina. As I have already indicated, throughout that time, the units (10)communicated between these two enclaves. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I'm sorry, Mr. Visnjic, to interrupt you once again. [In English] When is the beginning? "Until the proclamation of so-called safe areas." So it's necessary to have dates, please. (15) MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] • Q.: Witness DA, let me ask you a more specific question. In June 1994, you took up your duty with the Drina Corps Command. • A.: Yes.
• Q.: And as part of that duty, you had insight into the information
(20)that reached the Command of the Drina Corps. On the basis of such
information, that is, information that you were able to receive in that
time beginning from June 1994 until July 1995, what you have previously
described to us as activities of the BH army, can that be linked to that
period of time, the period of time that I have just indicated? Can it be
(25)placed in that context?
• Q.: Could you tell the Judges in some detail, or perhaps if you can give us an example of the activities of the BH army outside the territory of safe areas as they have provided for in the resolution issued in 1993. (5) • A.: Yes. I can provide you with more specific information. In the course of 1993 and 1994, the movements of the BH army troops and passages of its members through our territory were obvious. In particular, in wintertime we were able to observe such passages thanks to the traces that were left in the snow, because the area in question is a (10)mountainous area which gets a lot of snow in winter. And in December and January and in February, both in 1993 and 1994, I personally had an opportunity to see footprints that were left in the snow in the area between Han Pijesak via Han Pogled, the village of Riocica towards Kladanj. It was a well-trodden path which indicated the (15)way, the route that they used to take. Similar movements at the same period of time could be observed also along the axis from Gorazde to Sarajevo where Muslims used the so-called Allah route. The area I'm referring to is the area which was left as a link between Gorazde and Sarajevo after the Dayton Accords. (20) • Q.: The movements you're talking about, were they movements of the civilian population or military units? • A.: The movements in question were both of the civilian population and of military units.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes. Mr. Visnjic, this is
(25)probably a convenient time for our lunch break, which will be 45 minutes
--- Luncheon recess taken at 12.30 p.m.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Visnjic, you may continue, so Mr. McCloskey can have a rest.
MR. VISNJIC:
[Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] • Q.: Witness DA, we were speaking about the movement of Muslim troops and civilians between the two enclaves in the period 1994/1995. Can you explain to Their Honours how was it possible for the Serb forces who (10)surrounded the enclaves were not in a position to prevent this movement between enclaves and also between the enclaves and the territory held by the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina?
• A.: Yes. I'm not a professional soldier; I'm a linguist. But I do
know that much, that units of the corps were handicapped throughout the
(15)war because of these enclaves, that the bulk of our forces had to be
engaged around the safe areas, on the one hand, and on the other, at the
front, towards the lines of the army of Bosnia-Herzegovina, so that, for
instance, for much of the war, we didn't have firm links between the units
on the right flank, that is, units of the 2nd Motorised Romanija Brigade
(20)and units of the Vlasenica Brigade. So that the area from the Slivanja
Hill, Slivan Brdo, to I think -- I can't remember the name. Spiljanska
Stijena and further on from there was not covered. That area was not
under control, just as the area between the protected areas of Zepa and
Srebrenica was not covered, because we relied more on the configuration of
(25)the land, which is not really readily accessible for movement. And
• Q.: When units of the BH army moved between these two enclaves and towards the territory controlled by the BH army, armed incidents occurred. What was the customary response when information was received (5)that an armed group appeared deep behind the lines of the Drina Corps? • A.: Well, you see, we were informed most frequently about those movements by the local population, and by the time our intervention units reached the area, they would have already passed through. I'm thinking primarily of the axis towards Kladanj and Tuzla. And as for the area (10)between the two enclaves, I can say without any hesitation that there was constant communication between those two safe areas by them. • Q.: Do you know anything about the Zeleni Jadar operation at the beginning of June 1995?
• A.: I don't know about the other operation, because at the beginning
(15)of June, by order of the Superior Command, a mixed unit was formed; to be
more precise, a unit composed of elements of the Zvornik Brigade, the
Bratunac Brigade, the Vlasenica Brigade, and a part of the Milici
Brigade. We called this unit the 5th Podrinje Brigade. That was its full
name. And its task was to go to the region of the Treskavica Mountain and
(20)the town of Trnovo, where intensive battles were going on, and our task
was to reach certain defence lines, that is, to fill in with our forces an
empty space at the contact between Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and the
Herzegovina Corps on the other side, so between those corps.
I was appointed Assistant for Morale, Religious and Legal Affairs
(25)in this newly-formed unit, so that in the period you have mentioned, I was
• Q.: Who was the commander of the unit with which you went to the Sarajevo-Romanija theatre? (5) • A.: The commander was Colonel Veletic. • Q.: Was this a permanent or a temporary unit? • A.: It was a provisional, a temporary unit. We stayed in the area I have described for about two months. • Q.: Are you aware of the way in which the forces were formed that took (10)part in the operation Krivaja 95 in relation to Srebrenica? • A.: As I was saying, I was not in the Corps Command at the time, and I do not know about the preparations for that operation. It seems to me that this was done spontaneously and without any serious military preparations, as far as I know. (15) • Q.: When did you learn about this operation? • A.: It's interesting that I learnt once the operation started, and it is also interesting that the first I heard of it was from the Muslim media reports that we were monitoring in the area of Sarajevo. However, to tell you the truth, I believe that this was another propaganda ploy, because, (20)actually, we thought that some kind of action was being taken to finally separate Zepa and Srebrenica and to narrow down the areas so as to be able to control them more easily.
• Q.: At the time, did you communicate with the Drina Corps Command or,
rather, did you receive any information from them about the beginning of
(25)the operation for Srebrenica or about its progress?
(10) • Q.: When did you come to the territory that was within the area of responsibility of the Drina Corps? I'm referring to the period of the beginning of July 1995, after the Srebrenica operation had already begun. • A.: I was there only twice for brief periods. I mean, I would come from Treskavica or, rather, Trnovo, my assignment being to intervene with (15)the Corps Commander General Zivanovic so that he should find a way for us to fill in our units with new personnel because we had very great losses ever since our arrival in the Trnovo area and throughout the time we spent in that area. We were exposed to very severe fire from the Muslim forces and the rapid deployment forces of the French battalion on Mount Igman. (20)The morale in the unit of which I was a part at the time was seriously undermined. Perhaps for the first time during the war that I was confronted with such a situation in the units because of these high casualties, and that was the reason for me to go on the 12th of July, in the evening, to the Corps Command. (25)
• Q.: Who did you find at the Corps Command in the evening of the
• A.: The duty operations officer was Colonel Jocic. I briefly met with Commander Zivanovic, very briefly. Who else was there? I saw Major Pajic, several soldiers from the communications centre, and two of my (5)associates from the press centre. I can't remember now whether there was anyone else that I saw then. • Q.: Before we go back to your brief encounter with the Corps Commander General Zivanovic, did your associates from the press centre inform you of the situation in the press centre, the news, the current situation, and so (10)on, the things that were important at the time? • A.: Since I was in a kind of vacuum as far as information was concerned, I asked my colleagues what was going on. They didn't know much. They couldn't tell me much because all the information for the public at large at that time went through the press centre of the Main (15)Staff of the army of Republika Srpska. They only told me that during the day they had forwarded an appeal or a call, whatever you like to call it, to the local radio stations, asking companies, private haulers, to send their vehicles to Srebrenica for the transportation of the population towards Kladanj and Tuzla. That is what I learnt at that time. (20) • Q.: You said that you also spoke to the Corps Commander, General Zivanovic. What did you speak to him about?
• A.: I briefed the commander on the situation in the territory I had
come from. He did not make any promises about reinforcements, because he
said he was short of forces, but he insisted that I go back immediately
(25)and that all of us who were in this mini command of the unit should be
(5) • Q.: This was on the 12th, in the evening, was it not? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Could you tell the Trial Chamber where you were on the 13th of July. • A.: I spent the night between the 12th and the 13th in the corps. I (10)picked up some supplies that I needed to take with me for the command and the fighters, and in the morning of the 13th, sometime after breakfast or around breakfast time, I met with General Krstic, who just briefly asked me what was new. I briefed him, as I had the Corps Commander, and I received the same instructions from him as I had from General Zivanovic. (15)But General Krstic also said that it would be a good thing if I could prepare some gifts, primarily cigarettes, for our wounded combatants who were undergoing treatment in the hospital of the Main Staff of the VRS at Sokolac, and that we should go and visit them together, as we had always done. (20)I went to Sokolac a little before General Krstic, and we met at the Romanija Hotel at Sokolac around 11.30. From there, we went on to the Main Staff hospital. We spoke to the doctors and together visited our wounded soldiers.
• Q.: When you say "the Main Staff hospital," does that mean the Drina
(25)Corps did not have its own hospital?
• Q.: In the Main Staff hospital, in addition to the wounded from the Drina Corps, there were wounded from other units, weren't there; is that true? • A.: Yes. You have just reminded me. This hospital of the Main Staff (10)played a very important role in the course of the war. The fighters from the whole territory of the eastern part of Republika Srpska were treated there, also civilians. Even Muslims were treated there, and in quite large numbers. • Q.: When you say "the wounded," how many of them were there at the (15)time, if you can remember? • A.: You mean our wounded? • Q.: I mean the wounded that you visited, if you can remember. • A.: Well, you see, General Krstic and I, while we were together in the brigade, whenever we had an opportunity to do so, we would visit the (20)wounded soldiers, and we never made any distinction as to whether he belonged to our units or units of the Sarajevo-Romanija or Herzegovina Corps. We would express encouragement to all of them, give them all the same gifts. And just then, on the 13th, there were about a hundred of them, I'm sure, in all the wards of the hospital. (25)
• Q.: How long did this visit of yours to the hospital last?
• Q.: Who did you find at the Krivaca forward command post and what did it look like? Could you describe it for the Chamber? What is actually a forward command post? (20)
• A.: This forward command post would be established by way of a simple
tent, and this is what I saw there. We had a cook there. I forgot the
name of that woman. Amovic was also there, who was Commander of the Staff
Command, a few soldiers. Whether Vicic, Colonel Vicic was there, I don't
know. I saw him somewhere. I don't know if it was there or somewhere
(25)else, I can't remember, but I saw him sometime during the day. Maybe I
• Q.: How long did you stay there? • A.: For a very short period of time. Krstic rushed me, telling me to go back, and once again he told me to spend time with the soldiers, to try (5)and boost their morale, and once conditions are created, he said that he would come and that a rotation would take place. • Q.: Where did you go after that? • A.: I went to Vlasenica. Actually, I first went to Han Pijesak to get some cigarettes for the fighters. They smoked so much. I wanted to take (10)some cigarettes to them, to Trnovo. After that, I went to Vlasenica, took some hygiene supplies and some parcels that the parents of the combatants were sending them. I put it all in a Yugo vehicle which belonged to the press centre and went to Trnovo. • Q.: General Krstic remained at the Krivaca forward command post? (15) • A.: Yes, that is correct. We didn't see each other again. • Q.: And you don't know the whereabouts of General Krstic in the days that followed? • A.: No. I don't know. We couldn't communicate. I was able to communicate with the corps but I couldn't reach him. We didn't even speak (20)on the telephone. It was not possible at the time. • Q.: Could you tell the Chamber something about General Zivanovic and his stay -- and his visit to the Drina Corps? Did you have any contact with him?
• A.: Well, we were sending him combat reports on a regular basis, and
(25)we also received his instructions, the instructions that he had already
• Q.: Could you tell us how many days after your stay there this was? • A.: You mean the contacts with General Zivanovic? • Q.: Yes. • A.: I think that we had contact until the 20th, as far as I can (10)remember. It was actually him. He would call the communications centre at the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps and then his message would be forwarded to us. So that was the kind of contact that we had with him. It continued perhaps after the 20th. I don't know. I had a diary throughout that time. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Visnjic, I must admit that I feel somewhat lost in this testimony. The witness said that he had stayed two months or thereabouts at Trnovo. At least two times he came to the corps. Once it was on the 12th of July, and he described to us the day of the 12th of July and the 13th of July, but I don't know -- I still don't (20)know anything about his second visit. Do you plan to cover that? Oh, yes. I'm sorry. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I was just about to ask the witness. • Q.: When was your -- when did your second visit take place? (25)
• A.: It took place sometime around the 23rd or 24th of July, but it was
• Q.: Where exactly did you go? • A.: I went to the press centre, I went to see my mother. It was all (5)in a rush. • Q.: Thank you. Witness DA, you have known General Krstic for quite a while? • A.: Yes. I know General Krstic from our secondary school days. We used to be school colleagues. We went to the grammar school together and (10)we graduated together. We finished at the same time. Once we left high school, Krstic went to the military academy and I studied languages, but we would see each other from time to time. And then for quite some time, for several years, we didn't see each other, up until the beginning of the war, and Fate wanted us to meet again in the same unit. (15) • Q.: Could you tell something about General Krstic as an officer, since you spent quite some time in his vicinity during the war? • A.: It is very difficult to me to separate the personality of General Krstic as a man and as an officer, because, Your Honours, you must understand: We went to school together; we were colleagues in the grammar (20)school. Krstic has always been a great man, in my eyes, and he is also an honourable officer for me. • Q.: While he was the brigade commander, you used to tour the lines that were held by your fighters together?
• A.: Yes. It happened very often, and I was always more than willing
(25)to do that. Now you just reminded me of Krstic's arrival in the VRS. To
(20) • Q.: During our conversation yesterday, when we were discussing your testimony here, you told me about something that happened in the autumn of 1993 involving Croatian soldiers. Could you briefly describe that event to the Chamber.
• A.: The area of responsibility of the brigade was, during a certain
(25)period of time, very large, geographically speaking, so that our
• Q.: The municipality of Vares was under the control of the BH army and (5)the Croatian Defence Council at the time? • A.: The majority of the population in Vares in the former Bosnia-Herzegovina was Croat, and for quite some time the Croats had the upper hand in that town. However, when the conflict broke out, I mean the armed conflict between the HVO and the BH army, the entire Croat community (10)from Vares left the town and fled to our territory, that is, to the villages that I have just mentioned, where our soldiers took them in and offered them protection. There were several thousands of Croats there, but, Your Honours, not only civilians, women and children, but also HVO soldiers. Many of (15)them had been disarmed. However, there was still a significant number of them who still had weapons. • Q.: When you say that they had been disarmed, who had disarmed them?
• A.: Members of the BH army.
General Krstic engaged almost the complete -- all the members of
(20)the brigade and the staff, and he made sure that we assembled all in that
area and offer help to those unfortunate people, and he personally spent
days and hours trying to help them. All those who managed to reach our
combat lines survived, were taken care of, were offered adequate medical
help. And when they arrived in Sokolac, upon their wish, they were
(25)transported by us either to Yugoslavia or to the Western Bosnia via Duvno
(5) • Q.: The period of time you're referring to, the autumn of 1993. In that period of time, HVO had a contact line, a confrontation line, with the VRS in several areas? • A.: In the area of responsibility of our corps, we didn't have any major conflicts with them, as far as I know. (10) • Q.: But that was the case in Posavina and Herzegovina? • A.: Yes, but that was very far from our area of responsibility, and I don't know much about it except what I could read in the papers. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, this may be a convenient time for a break. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. I believe we should have a break at this point because we are working according to the same schedule as we did with General Krstic. So we will have a 15-minute break at this point. --- Recess taken at 2.05 p.m. (20) --- On resuming at 2.17 p.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Visnjic. You may continue, please. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.]
• Q.: Witness DA, a moment ago, you told Their Honours that the hospital
(25)of the Main Staff in Sokolac treated, in addition to the wounded, the
• A.: At the very beginning of the war, that is, during the summer of
1992, in agreement with the local authorities, the army of Republika
Srpska offered the Muslims that they should stay and continue living in
their villages, in their own homes, guaranteeing them full security and
(10)normal living conditions on condition that they return the weapons. Many
accepted this. Thus, for instance, the inhabitants of the villages of
Vrhbarje and Burati stayed on in the area throughout the war. So did some
other villages.
Personally, I would be given orders by General Krstic to visit
(15)those people, to call on them to try, in agreement with the authorities --
and those were my duties according to establishment -- to provide them
with health care and essential living needs. I'm thinking of food and
everything else. We did so on a continuous basis. And anyway, this was
registered by numerous TV crews. They recorded our encounters with those
(20)inhabitants.
Sometimes I was even criticised by some people when I went to
visit those villagers. Why did I exchange such cordial greetings with
them, hugging them and so on? But all this was just normal. It was
humane.
(25)Those Muslims sent gifts to General Krstic in the form of fruit;
• Q.: Thank you, Witness DA. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I have no further (5)questions for this witness. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well, Mr. Visnjic. Witness DA, you will now answer questions put to you by Mr. Cayley. Mr. Cayley, your witness. (10) MR. CAYLEY: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours. Thank you. • CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Cayley: • Q.: Good afternoon, Witness DA. I'd just like to talk a little bit about your personal background. When did you do your military service (15)with the JNA? • A.: It was a long time ago. In 1975 to 1976. • Q.: And am I right in saying that, in 1992, you were mobilised, you volunteered to serve in the Bosnian Serb army? • A.: I was mobilised like all other able-bodied men. (20) • Q.: And I think you've already said in your evidence that your position, your first position, was that of Deputy Commander for Morale, Legal, and Religious Affairs with the 2nd Romanija Brigade; is that correct? • A.: Yes. (25)
• Q.: And that is where you first encountered General Krstic; is that
• A.: Yes, after many years. MR. CAYLEY: If I could have an exhibit, please, Exhibit 804. (5) • Q.: Now, Witness, as you know, the VRS relied heavily on JNA regulations and rules in order to govern how military staff worked, and what I want to show you, very briefly, is the instructions. I think these are the instructions to the 4th Corps of the JNA on carrying out priority assignments in peacetime and wartime. And you can take a look at that (10)document. Do you have the B/C/S -- do you have the Serbian version in front of you? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, this document, General Krstic has already acknowledged, is a document that was used in the VRS, and I want to turn specifically to page (15)16, page 16 of the Serbian version, page 21 of the English version, which sets out the regulations on the Body for Moral Guidance and Legal Affairs in the corps. Now, with that explanation, what was the date that you moved from the 2nd Romanija Corps to the Body for Moral Guidance and Legal Affairs of the Drina Corps? (20) • A.: I don't remember the exact date. • Q.: I think, if I can refresh your memory, you said that you moved in June of 1994; isn't that right? June or July of 1994 you moved --
• A.: Yes. Yes. I don't know the exact date. It's written down in the
military documents, but I didn't think it was important for me to remember
(25)it.
• A.: On page 16? • Q.: That's correct. • A.: Yes. • Q.: Can you explain to the Judges what that involved? You were an (10)officer in the Body for Moral Guidance and Legal Affairs. What did you do to implement that regulation, as a member of the staff? • A.: As a member of the brigade command, I visited very frequently the units in the field; I monitored the situation with respect to morale; I spoke to the soldiers; I listened to all their requests, proposals; and (15)did my best to resolve all the problems within my jurisdiction, if it was possible to do so. Of course, it was not always possible to resolve all of them. • Q.: And the next regulation which you can see, which states: "To take measures to protect commands and units from psychological propaganda (20)activities by the enemy." Can you say what you did at both corps and brigade level in order to implement that regulation on your work?
• A.: We would convey to the fighting men in both units the truth, on
the one hand, and what was not true, on the other, and which had been
broadcast to the public by the other side. There were certain
(25)ill-intentioned reports in the foreign press. There were also malicious
• Q.: Do you recall the ill-intentioned reports or malicious reports in (15)foreign press radio and television? Can you give the Judges any examples of that? • A.: My diary would mean a lot to me now. I can't remember just now, just this minute, but some of those reports were carried by our own media, not to mention what we had access to from the Muslim media, which we were (20)able to monitor in view of the closeness of their transmitters, so that we could follow their programmes. • Q.: [Previous translation continues ...] I'm sorry.
• A.: I'm sorry. There were examples when the achievements of our units
were underrated and the failures of the opposing side glorified. There
(25)were even some really funny situations, and sometimes they could turn
• Q.: Did you regard the Muslim media during the war as essentially biased and untruthful? • A.: Of course. I remember before the combat operations began, during (5)talks between party leaders, one of the demands was for the second programme of Sarajevo television at the time to be given to the Serbs for their use. However, that was never accepted. So you can imagine, and I said that moment ago, what a handicap that was for us in our efforts to present the truth and to fight for justice in the world. (10) • Q.: Whereas you, as a Serb officer, did your utmost to present a true picture of Serb army activities, Bosnian Serb army activities to the world? • A.: I am, in the first place, a language expert and less an officer. I did write telling the truth. For me the truth was above all else. And (15)I managed to do so to the extent to which circumstances allowed, and for that I am deeply grateful as a person and as a journalist to my colleagues from the third channel of French television, my colleagues from Greek TV studios, and some others for their sincerity with which they informed world public opinion, and particularly our colleagues from Japan, who also (20)frequently reported from our areas.
• Q.: If, Witness, we could go back to the document. I want to take you
to the next task that you had, which was to prepare, organise, and carry
out psychological propaganda activities against enemy units. Can you
explain to the Judges how you carried out psychological propaganda
(25)activities against enemy units?
• Q.: Could you be more specific and explain to the Judges some of the measures that you took in order to, as it were, carry out this (5)psychological propaganda on Bosniak units, Bosnian Muslim units? • A.: I said, and I keep repeating, that our handicap was the absence of adequate technical resources for all this. The Serb radio television at Pale was formed in a makeshift studio. There were only three good-quality reporters who came and were objectively qualified for the job, whereas the (10)others were young men and women who were learning the trade of journalism in those difficult times. • Q.: Witness, I'm sorry. I've got to interrupt you. I think you may have misunderstood my question. What I want to know is the actual -- nothing -- I don't need to know about the technical shortages, material (15)shortages. Can you just explain to the Judges the measures you in the Bosnian Serb army would take to carry out propaganda activities against enemy units. • A.: I'll give you a concrete example. If, for instance, our lines (20)would be moved forward at the expense of the enemy, on the enemy's side, the information media would deny that, and we would try, with the help of images and words, to show that that was not true, that we had the advantage.
• Q.: And naturally, if, for example, your -- I just need to read the
(25)transcript for a second.
• Q.: If, for example, the Bosnian Muslim army made inroads into Bosnian Serb army lines, naturally, you reported to the Bosnian Serb people that the Bosnian Muslim army had made successful advances on Bosnian Serb (5)positions? Do you understand my question? • A.: I do. You see, a war is a war. Sometimes we acknowledged and we sometimes didn't, fearing that this could affect combat morale, which is only logical. • Q.: So in essence, you did exactly the same thing as the Bosnian (10)Muslims. You didn't always acknowledge when you had suffered defeats? • A.: More often than they did. • Q.: Now, you've said in the course of your work that you had little or nothing, I think, to do with legal matters; is that correct? • A.: Yes. Very little, relatively speaking. (15) • Q.: Can you recall within the corps staff, in the Drina Corps staff, who was responsible for legal matters? • A.: The assistant for moral and religious affairs. • Q.: Would that be Lieutenant Colonel Cerovic? • A.: Yes, while he was with the corps. But Mr. Cerovic was a sick man, (20)so he would be on leave very often, that is, from time to time. • Q.: Now, Colonel Cerovic, when you were in the Drina Corps, was your immediate superior within the staff branch of moral guidance and legal affairs; is that right? • A.: Yes. (25)
• Q.: And in the Main Staff of the Bosnian Serb army, the head of moral
• A.: Assistant, not the head. It is true that that was Gvero. • Q.: So he was the assistant chief for moral and legal affairs within (5)the Main Staff? • A.: No. He was the Assistant Commander. Assistant to the Commander of the VRS for moral, religious, and legal affairs. • Q.: I'm sorry. These titles I know are very important to get absolutely correct. Now, if we just quickly finish with this document (10)that's in front of us, which is the same one that you have -- • A.: Okay. • Q.: And it moves down to the next section with the assistant commander for moral guidance and legal affairs. • A.: Yes. (15) • Q.: And the third section is: "To plan and supervise training to promote the moral education of soldiers and officers and to inform commands and units." Now, in supervising the training of moral education of soldiers and officers, did this involve instructing people in normal standards of good conduct as a soldier or an officer, civilised standards? (20) • A.: Of course. • Q.: And did your work involve teaching soldiers and officers about basic standards of behaviour in warfare towards civilian, towards prisoners of war?
• A.: Yes. I had my own assistants for the same kind of affairs at the
(25)level of battalion, so it was through them that I was able to coordinate
• Q.: Can you just tell the Judges the kind of instruction that you gave to soldiers and officers about how they should conduct themselves during (5)warfare, particularly with regard to civilians and prisoners of war? • A.: Everything we did was based on the principles of the Geneva Conventions and the rules of service of the VRS. • Q.: So it would be correct to say, based on what you're saying, that the VRS soldiers and officers throughout all the brigades were familiar (10)with basic standards of conduct towards civilians and prisoners of war? • A.: Yes, mostly. However, you must understand that the soldiers would be transferred very often. Many soldiers were killed in action or placed hors de combat. New soldiers would come to take their place, very often refugees from Central Bosnia or from Sarajevo, whom we didn't manage to (15)form, to educate in that sense, in a timely fashion. • Q.: How did you go about instructing soldiers and officers on basic standards of international humanitarian law? • A.: Through my assistants at the battalion command. • Q.: Did he give lectures, classes too, of the soldiers and officers on (20)the subject? • A.: Your Honours, it was a war, and we couldn't find time for teaching. All we could do was to be in constant contact with the people and try to talk to them as much as possible, I mean with the people out there in the field. (25)
• Q.: I'm not criticising the efforts that you made; I'm just trying to
• A.: Yes. You are right. However, I must say that we also tried to inform them through bulletins and magazines that we published whenever we could, and amidst all these pieces of information having to do with the front lines, we tried to present these aspects that you're talking about. (10) • Q.: And was this a practice that was carried out throughout the Drina Corps; there were assistant commanders in all of the brigades of the Drina Corps, as far as you know, giving basic instruction in international humanitarian law? • A.: That was done according to the establishment of each particular (15)brigade and battalion. It was a rule. • Q.: And all of this instruction throughout all the brigades was coordinated at the Drina Corps level; is that correct? • A.: Through the Main Staff, that is, from the Main Staff through corps, up until the level of individual units, basic units. (20) • Q.: So we can fairly say that throughout all of the corps of the VRS, some efforts were made to give basic instruction to soldiers and officers in basic standards of conduct in warfare?
• A.: Yes. Similarly, we would often discuss the matter with General
Gvero, and we were trying to find possibilities, solutions to reach
(25)individual soldiers, though, as I have already indicated, it was very
• Q.: Now, I think you also said that a part of your job was to inform soldiers and officers within your brigade, and indeed when you went to the Drina Corps staff, about current affairs, world affairs that affected (5)them, and I'd like to give you an exhibit which is in fact an indictment. It's Exhibit 805. MR. CAYLEY: And if you could help the witness, Mr. Usher, by giving him the version in Serbian. • Q.: Now, just before I ask you a question, Witness, I think you said (10)in your evidence that you had liaison contact with press agencies from all over the world: CNN you mentioned, Reuters; I think you mentioned some Japanese and French colleagues that you met. Is that right? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, you'll see that this is an indictment of Radovan Karadzic and (15)Ratko Mladic. Now, as you know, in July of 1995 Radovan Karadzic was the Commander-in-Chief of the VRS and Ratko Mladic was the Chief of Main Staff; is that correct? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, this -- (20) • A.: Ratko Mladic was the Commander of the VRS.
• Q.: Thank you. Now, this indictment was confirmed and indeed
published on the 25th of July of 1995, and you will probably recall that
it made world news and, I believe, was transmitted on all of the news
agencies that we've just mentioned. Can you explain to the Judges the
(25)effect that this had on the soldiers and officers within the Drina Corps
• A.: Both President Karadzic and General Mladic enjoyed a great amount of respect both from the units of the VRS and the people in general. Everyone was surprised when they heard about the indictment, but the (5)reaction was the same both by the people and by the soldiers; Why our commander? Why our president, rather than Alija, for example, referring to Alija Izetbegovic, and others who started the war. So that was basically the reaction of both the people and the military. • Q.: And when this indictment was made public, everybody within the (10)Drina Corps, indeed everybody in the VRS, knew about it? • A.: I wouldn't say that everybody knew about it. It was quite difficult to have this amount of material made accessible to every single soldier at every single post. • Q.: But I'm right in saying that news of this indictment was (15)transmitted by the likes of Reuters, CNN, other international news agencies with whom you had contacts as a public affairs officer? • A.: Yes, of course the agencies transmitted the news, but what was the use of such broadcast for a soldier who didn't speak any other language but his mother tongue, the Serbian language, and for the soldiers who had (20)perhaps only one small transistor in a far away trench somewhere in the mountains? It was enough for those people to have heard about the fact that their president, their commander, had been indicted. They were offended, because they believed in the justified cause of the fight of the Serbian people. (25)
• Q.: Did you have to go out yourself as part of the body for moral and
• A.: No. There was no need for me to do that nor did I have any orders to that effect. People didn't need much explanation. Their anger was (5)huge because they were deeply convinced of the just cause of the struggle that they had been leading for four years. • Q.: Now, in July of 1995, when this was published, you, I think -- were you still on the corps staff in July of 1995, on the Drina Corps staff? (10) • A.: No. I was at Treskavica. So I didn't have the complete version of the indictment except for what I heard at the radio, that is, only portions of the indictment. • Q.: So you managed to discover this indictment, hear about this indictment, even though you were up in Treskavica? (15) • A.: Thanks to a transistor that we had. MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I think it's probably time for us to finish for the day, if you wish. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Cayley. MR. CAYLEY: You've called me McCayley before. (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: But it is Cayley. MR. CAYLEY: It's a compliment, actually. We share an office, so ...
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] I would be very flattered if I
had an opportunity to christen you once again, to baptise you once again.
(25)We have spent quite some time with Mr. McCloskey. And we do need a break
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.04 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday, the 3rd day of (10)November, 2000 at 9.20 a.m. |
