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/ Colormap • Page 3428 • {1/104} (1)Thursday, 25 May 2000 [Open session] [The witness entered court]
--- Upon commencing at 9.55 a.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning, the technical booth, the interpreters, the legal officers, the court reporters; good morning to the Prosecution; (10)good morning to the Defence; good morning to General Krstic; good morning, Witness. We have a witness in the courtroom already. Before beginning I should like to inform you that Judge Fouad Riad is unable to be with us today and (15)we are therefore going to sit in accordance with Article 15 bis, because there are urgent reasons of ill-health that are keeping him away and we are going to continue the hearings. Witness, can you hear me? (20) THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So you're going to read the solemn declaration which the usher is going to hand to you, please.
THE WITNESS:
[Int.] I solemnly
(25)declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
WITNESS: WITNESS T JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Please be (5)seated, madam. Are you feeling comfortable? You are now going to answer questions put to you by Mr. Cayley, whom you see to your right. Mr. Cayley, the witness is yours. Good morning. (10) MR. CAYLEY: Good morning, Mr. President, Judge Wald, my learned friends for the Defence. • EXAMINED by Mr. Cayley: • Q.: Witness, I'm going to call you "Witness T" during your evidence in order to protect your (15)identity. But first of all could you please look at the name written on the piece of paper. Don't read it out, just confirm that that is your name. • A.: It is. • Q.: Witness, please relax as best you can. I (20)know it's not easy speaking about these events, and I only have a few questions for you, as you know. Just a few preliminary questions. You're of Bosnian nationality; is that correct? (25)
• A.: Yes.
• A.: Yes. MR. CAYLEY: I didn't -- oh, there is a response on the transcript. (5) • Q.: In July of 1995 I think you were living in a village that was inside the Srebrenica enclave; is that correct? • A.: Yes. • Q.: After the enclave fell in July of 1995, I (10)think you went to the woods with your children and with other women from the village; is that right? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, I know you spent a number of nights in the woods and I'm not going to ask you about that, but (15)I think I'm right in saying that you arrived in Potocari on the 11th of July of 1995; is that right? • A.: It is. • Q.: When you arrived in Potocari, can you tell the Judges where you went. (20)
• A.: I was in front of a factory. We got there
and we spent the night there. On the 11th, in the
evening, UNPROFOR was around us and whoever entered,
they said they couldn't get out again, so it was safer
to stay there, they said.
(25)During the night and the next night in the
• Q.: If you can just wait there for one moment. (5) MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/7. Mr. Usher, I have a copy. You can borrow mine. If you could put it in front of the witness and then put it on the ELMO. THE USHER: Okay. (10) MR. CAYLEY: • Q.: Witness, do you recognise the building in this photograph? • A.: I do. • Q.: Can you tell the Judges what this building (15)is? • A.: This one here. • Q.: Is this the building where you stayed outside when you arrived in Potocari? • A.: It is. (20)
MR. CAYLEY: Could it be placed on the ELMO,
please. Would you move it down, please, and if the
lens could be withdrawn so that we can see the whole
photograph. That's fine.
Let the record show that the witness has
(25)identified Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/7 as the factory
(5) • Q.: Now, Witness, I want you to cast your mind back to the night of the 12th of July when you and your children were outside this factory building. I think there was a woman nearby to you with three sons. • A.: Yes. (10) • Q.: I want you to tell the Judges what you saw take place on that night. • A.: First, two elderly -- there were two older boys, they were resisting, and then in the end they took all three of them away. (15) • Q.: Now, you say that there were two older boys, they were resisting, and in the end they took all three away. Who took the three boys away; do you recall? • A.: Serbs. • Q.: How were these Serbs dressed? (20) • A.: They had on military uniforms. • Q.: If you want to take a break at any time, just indicate to the President, if you want to just take a five-minute break, and I'm sure we can do that. Do you want to continue? (25)
• A.: Yes.
• A.: I think the oldest was between 18 and 20. The next one, between 10 and 15. Judging by their (5)height, that is my judgement. And the young one was between five and seven. • Q.: Where did these Serbs in military uniform take these three boys? • A.: Behind the factory, around that second corner (10)there [indicates], and he killed them there. • Q.: Did you see them being killed behind the factory building that's on the screen at the moment? • A.: I didn't see them being killed, but I saw them later. I saw them dead. I didn't see them when (15)they were actually being killed. • Q.: What time had passed between the Serb soldiers taking them away and you seeing them behind the building; how much time passed? • A.: About an hour, I think. She fainted, and she (20)was looking for her sons. We went round to see them, and then she fainted. • Q.: Who fainted? • A.: Their mother.
• Q.: Could you describe -- I know this is very
(25)difficult, and we'll move through it as quickly as we
• A.: All three were one next to another. They were covered up to their waists, and all three had (5)their throats slit. • Q.: After you had seen these three bodies, what did you do next? • A.: What did I do? Nothing. First, when they took those three children, she fainted. When she came (10)to, she wanted to know where they were. She first asked about the youngest one. Then we told her that they had taken all three. We went to look. Then she fainted again. We dragged her back to where she was before, and that's how it was. When again she came to, (15)we gave her some pills to take, and that's how it was. Later, they came again. They took another two, but they were older people. I don't know exactly how old they were. They weren't too old or too young, maybe about 30 or 35. They took them too, and they (20)slaughtered the two of them too right there. • Q.: Witness, if you could just wait a moment. You said they came again and took two others. Were these two others another two Muslim men? • A.: Yes. (25)
• Q.: And who took them away?
• Q.: And "the same two," you're referring to the (5)two Serb soldiers who had originally come to take the children away? • A.: Yes. They came back for these two older men, as I said. • Q.: After those older men had been taken away, (10)did you see them again? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Can you tell the Judges what you saw? • A.: They were only on the other side. They were also killed, and both of them had also had their (15)throats slit in the same way as the three children, only they were turned around in the opposite direction. • Q.: Whereabouts did you see those two other bodies? • A.: Again, behind this factory where these three (20)were, these three children, and then next to them were these two men. • Q.: Do you recall when you saw those other two bodies?
• A.: I don't know. I think it was about two hours
(25)later, after we had seen these three, because we had to
• Q.: Now, I think on the 13th of July, I'm correct in saying that you and your children left Potocari by bus, and you were taken eventually to the free territory in Tuzla; is that right? (10) • A.: Yes. When I had seen all that, I picked up my children and headed to the buses. And about 10 past 2.00, I think -- this was the second set of buses, and we got on and headed towards Kladanj. MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I have no further (15)questions for the witness, and I can now offer her for cross-examination. Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Mr. Cayley. Mr. Petrusic, you have the witness for (20)cross-examination, if you wish. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Good morning, Your Honours, my learned friends of the Prosecution. • CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Petrusic:
• Q.: Good morning, madam. I shall really try to
(25)be very brief.
• A.: Yes, I did. • Q.: On that occasion when this separation was carried out, did you notice any police dogs? • A.: Yes, I did. (10) • Q.: Madam T, after these events which you have described to Mr. Cayley, did you see members of UNPROFOR? • A.: I don't know. I know I saw some people; I think they were UNPROFOR. They may have been Serbs (15)dressed in their clothing. But I did see blue uniforms on them. • Q.: This group that you were in and which was aware of these events, or perhaps you yourself, did you inform UNPROFOR members of what you had seen? (20) • A.: We did say these things but they said it wasn't true. But everything was visible during the night of the 12th. There were so many atrocities.
• Q.: Thank you, madam. During this second arrival
of the two soldiers, are you sure that they took away
(25)two men?
• Q.: Madam, in your statement to the Prosecution you said you saw a couple, a husband and wife. • A.: No, those were two men. But later they (5)separated the husband from a wife, because they had two children. UNPROFOR said that nobody else could come and they took him away, and there was some corn down there and they took them down there. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, (10)I would, after all, like to show the witness her statement, and I would end my cross-examination with that. MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, if I could assist my learned friend. I think it might be an idea in the (15)case of this witness to actually highlight, if you haven't done so already, if you could put a highlighter across the section so that she can go straight to it. Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, (20)Mr. Petrusic, that is a good suggestion, but I think it is a method that you have already adopted.
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] Yes, Your
Honour, we have already done that for the convenience
of the Chamber, and of course the witness. So could
(25)the usher please give the witness her previous
• Q.: Madam T, is that your statement? JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, perhaps we need to wait for the number of (5)the exhibit so that we can identify it. Madam Registrar, can you give us a number for this exhibit? THE REGISTRAR: Just one second, please. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] If I may be of (10)assistance, it is D20, Exhibit D20. THE REGISTRAR: D20, yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So it is D20. Please continue, Mr. Petrusic. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] (15) • Q.: Madam T, is that your statement? • A.: Yes. • Q.: On page 3 of that statement, it is highlighted with a marker, you said, "Later that evening the same three soldiers returned who had taken (20)these three boys away. They took away a man and a woman." • A.: No, they took away two men.
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] Mr. President,
that ends my cross-examination.
(25)Madam T, thank you.
(5) MR. CAYLEY: No, Mr. President, I don't have any further questions for the witness. Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Mr. Cayley. Judge Wald, have you any questions? (10) JUDGE WALD: Just two. • QUESTIONED by the Court: JUDGE WALD: Madam T, your children were with you in Potocari at the time that your neighbour's children were taken away by the Serb soldiers; is that (15)right? You had your children with you around the factory. • A.: Yes. JUDGE WALD: Can you just tell us, were your children boys or girls, and about what ages were they, (20)your own children? • A.: One was born in 1992, the other in 1994. JUDGE WALD: So they were very young at the time. • A.: Yes. Yes. (25)
JUDGE WALD: Was there any reason that you
• A.: She wasn't my neighbour. I didn't even know that woman; I saw her for the first time there. (5) JUDGE WALD: But the woman who was close by that you saw, you couldn't tell why they took her children but they left your children alone. • A.: I don't know. I had two little girls, and those were boys. Maybe that was the reason. (10) JUDGE WALD: I see. My only other question is: You told us about the sad story of seeing the boys' bodies and then later on at least one of the -- if I remember correctly, did you see the bodies of the two men that were taken out later? Is that right? Did (15)you see their bodies too, of the men that were taken out later than the three boys? • A.: Yes, I did. JUDGE WALD: Okay. • A.: I saw them later. (20) JUDGE WALD: My only question is: Were those the only bodies you saw that night, the three boys and the two men, or were there other bodies around in the area?
• A.: There were but I didn't dare look. I went to
(25)the buses in the morning and I don't know what happened
JUDGE WALD: All right. Thank you very much. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you (5)very much, Judge Wald. Witness T, I have only one question. The Prosecutor has asked questions, the Defence has asked questions, and my colleague Judge Wald. Is there anything else that you would like to say and that (10)hasn't been asked of you? You may say it now. • A.: I have nothing to say. Who was there could have seen it all. I don't know. Only when I reached Tuzla, I found my mother, and she told me that -- JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Take your (15)time, Witness T. We have every understanding for your suffering. • A.: My mother told me -- THE INTERPRETER: I'm sorry, we didn't hear that. The interpreter apologises. We think the (20)witness said that her father had been killed. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Madam, do you wish to continue or is that all you wanted to say? We feel very much for you, as I have already said. • A.: I would like to finish there. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Take your
• A.: That they had killed my father at Potocari a (5)day later. That's what my mother said.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] So,
Witness, we do not wish to make you suffer any
further. I think that you were very brave to come here
and to tell us everything that you have told us, and
(10)therefore that ends your testimony here.
We wish you a safe journey to your place of
residence and that you will be able to recover, because
you have children who need you.
Please don't move, because of protective
(15)measures, so that we are going to have a break, a
20-minute break, after which the hearing will be
resumed.
So thank you very much, Witness T, for
coming. --- Break taken at 10.30 a.m.
--- On resuming at 10.55 a.m.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.]
(25)Mr. Harmon.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, excuse me for interrupting you. I must remind the witness that he's under oath, or there may be some doubt as to whether it is necessary to take the solemn (20)declaration or not. But to avoid all doubt, Mr. Usher, perhaps it is simpler for Mr. Ruez to take the oath once again.
THE WITNESS: My name is Jean-Rene Ruez. I
solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole
(25)truth, and nothing but the truth.
WITNESS: JEAN-RENE RUEZ (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Mr. Ruez. Now things are quite clear as regards the solemn declaration, and you're now going to answer questions put to you by Mr. Harmon. • EXAMINED by Mr. Harmon: (10) • Q.: Even though you have testified previously in this proceeding, there are people in the gallery who don't know who you are and what you do. So could you briefly identify what you do and how long you've been employed by the Office of the Prosecutor? (15) • A.: My name is Jean-Rene Ruez. I am the investigation team leader for the Srebrenica investigation. I joined the Tribunal in April 1995, and I am concerned with the Srebrenica case since 20th July 1995. (20)
• Q.: Thank you very much. Let me begin by showing
you Prosecutor's Exhibit 28, and I'm going to ask you
to identify a number of individuals in Prosecutor's
Exhibit 28.
Let me begin, first of all, by showing you
(25)Prosecutor's Exhibit 28/7. Now, that's been placed on
• A.: Yes, I did. • Q.: Can you identify him for the Judges, please? • A.: His name is Colonel Cedo Blagojevic. (5) • Q.: And in July of 1995, what was his position in the Drina Corps? • A.: Colonel Blagojevic was the commander of the 1st Light Infantry Brigade. • Q.: Now let me show you the next Prosecutor's (10)exhibit, which is Prosecutor's Exhibit 28/9. Returning briefly to the previous exhibit, Mr. Ruez, you testified that Mr. Blagojevic was a colonel in the 1st Light Infantry Brigade. Was that in the Bratunac Brigade? (15) • A.: Bratunac Brigade commander. • Q.: Thank you. Now let's go to the next exhibit, please, the one that's on the ELMO. Have you met this individual? • A.: Yes, I did. (20) • Q.: Who is he? • A.: He is -- he was at the time a major. His name is Dragan Obrenovic. He was the Chief of Staff of the 1st Zvornik Brigade. He's currently the commander of the Zvornik Brigade. (25)
• Q.: That was on the 11th of July he held that
• A.: On 11 of July, 1995, he was the deputy commander of the Zvornik Brigade. • Q.: Now can we turn to 28/11. Now, this (5)individual, Mr. Ruez, have you met this individual? • A.: Yes, I did. • Q.: What is his name? • A.: His name is Pavle Golic. He was a Major in July 1995. He was a member of the Intelligence Section (10)at the Drina Corps headquarters. • Q.: Thank you. MR. HARMON: Now, let's turn, Mr. Usher, to 28/18, please. • Q.: Mr. Ruez, have you met this individual? (15) • A.: Yes, I did. • Q.: What is his name? • A.: His name is Svetozar Andric. He was a Lieutenant Colonel at the time of the events in July 1995. He was the commander of the 1st Bihac (20)Sekovici -- he was the brigade commander of the Sekovici Brigade. MR. HARMON: All right. Mr. Usher, for the time being I'm finished with the exhibits in Prosecutor's Exhibit 28. (25)
• Q.: I'd like to show you two new exhibits that
MR. HARMON: If I can have given to the usher and if they can be placed on the ELMO Prosecutor's Exhibit 185 and 186. Now, could you place Prosecutor's (5)Exhibit 185 on the ELMO, please, and if we could have that properly shown that would be fine. Thank you very much. Now, this, Your Honours, is a still image taken from a film that has been previously introduced (10)into evidence. • Q.: Mr. Ruez, who is the man in the foreground in this particular picture? • A.: This man is identified as being Ljubo, probably Ljubisa, family name Borovcanin. He is the (15)deputy commander of the special police force based in Janja in July 1995. • Q.: On the far right you can see an image of a man, at least half of a man's face. Is that Colonel Kingori from the Kenyan forces? (20) • A.: Yes. He was a Major at the time of the events and he was present in Potocari, indeed.
• Q.: Let me show you another still image that has
been taken from another film that has been introduced
previously, Prosecutor's Exhibit 186. Can you identify
(25)the man standing to the right of the man in the blue
• A.: The man standing on the right is, again, Ljubo Borovcanin. • Q.: What was his position on the 11th of July, (5)1995, if you know? • A.: He was the deputy commander of the special police based in Janja. MR. HARMON: I have two new exhibits I'd like displayed on the ELMO; one is Prosecutor's Exhibit -- (10)I'm sorry, they are old exhibits -- Prosecutor's Exhibits 71 and 72. For reference for Your Honours, this was an individual who was identified during the testimony of Lieutenant van Duijn. (15) • Q.: Mr. Ruez, let me put Prosecutor's Exhibit 71, first of all, on the ELMO. Referring to the man on the left-hand side of this image, can you identify him, please. • A.: Yes. The man on the left is Mendeljejev (20)Dzuric. He is a company commander from the special police force, based in Janja. • Q.: Do you know who his superior was?
• A.: His superior was Ljubo Borovcanin, who was
the deputy commander of that same special police force
(25)in Janja.
• Q.: Is that the same individual that you (5)previously identified in Prosecutor's 71? • A.: Yes. This is again Mendeljejev Dzuric, whose rank at the time is unknown to us at this moment. MR. HARMON: I've concluded, Mr. Usher, with those exhibits. (10) • Q.: Now I'd like to show you, Mr. Ruez, three exhibits that have been previously entered into evidence, Prosecutor's Exhibits 170, 171, and 172. MR. HARMON: Again, for point of reference to Your Honours, these three exhibits are exhibits that (15)were introduced through Mr. Erdemovic. Mr. Erdemovic identified a location where he and his colleagues went on the 16th of July. From Vlasenica they arrived at a particular location; these are the images of that particular location. From that location they were (20)taken to the Branjevo Military Farm. There should be three images, 170, 171, and 172. Why don't we start, Mr. Usher, with Prosecutor's Exhibit 170.
• Q.: Mr. Ruez, are you familiar with this
(25)photograph?
(5) • Q.: Was the Zvornik Brigade located at those structures on the 16th of July, 1995? • A.: Yes, they were located at this location. MR. HARMON: Now, Mr. Usher, could you turn to the next exhibit, Prosecutor's Exhibit 171, and (10)place that on the ELMO, please. • Q.: Is that an image of the same location but from a different perspective, Mr. Ruez? • A.: Yes, it is. This is the entrance gate of the 1st Zvornik Infantry Brigade. Just at the right of (15)this picture is the guardhouse of the compound where the Lieutenant Colonel who met Drazen Erdemovic's team before going to the Branjevo Farm, he met the team. He was coming out from this guardhouse. • Q.: Let's turn to the last image, Prosecutor's (20)Exhibit 172, and ask you just briefly to identify that as well. • A.: This is another view of the compound of the 1st Zvornik Brigade, the headquarters of the 1st Zvornik Brigade. (25)
• Q.: All right. Thank you very much, Mr. Ruez.
• Q.: Let me now show you Prosecutor's Exhibit 160, and I'm going to ask you about the 5th Engineering (5)Unit. You should have a copy, Mr. Ruez, of Prosecutor's Exhibit 160, and we're going to be referring to eight exhibits, 160/1 through 160/8. First of all, let me ask you in respect of these exhibits, if you would have the map on the ELMO, (10)could you orient the Judges to the location where the Drina Corps 5th Engineering Battalion was located. • A.: The location of the 5th Engineering Battalion is very close to the so-called intersection of Konjevici, where the red circle is. It is (15)approximately 800 metres -- or 600 metres away from the intersection. The road on the right is the road leading towards Bratunac town.
• Q.: All right. Would you take the next exhibit,
please, Mr. Ruez, 160/1, and place that on the ELMO.
(20)I'm going to interrupt you once or twice in
your testimony about this location, but I'd like you
now to use those exhibits, starting with 160/1 through
160/8, and slowly identify the significance of each of
these images, and tell the Judges about each of these
(25)exhibits, please.
• Q.: Indicating the road that starts at the upper (10)right-hand side of the image, and at approximately a 45-degree angle descends to the left lower portion; is that correct? • A.: That is correct. This picture is broken into three frames, frame A, frame B, and frame C. I'm going (15)to show now additional pictures from these frames.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Mr. Harmon,
excuse me. Can I interrupt to ask the technical booth
to give us an overall view of all these photographs,
please, together. I can't see the top of the
(20)photograph, please. I should like to see the whole
thing, please. Put the photograph under the ELMO, and
whenever one puts a document on the ELMO I would like
us to be able to see the whole photograph. Does the
technical booth understand what I'm saying? Could you
(25)focus it so that the whole photograph can be seen?
(5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Thank you. THE WITNESS: That way it could work but it's not very legible. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Please (10)continue, Mr. Harmon. We've seen the whole photograph now and you may continue. I apologise for interrupting you. MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. President. • Q.: Continue, please, Mr. Ruez. Why don't you (15)take the next image and tell Their Honours what 160/2 is. Did you take this image?
• A.: The photograph that I took on the 8th April
1996, this is a photograph of the headquarters of the
5th Engineer Unit. It is in a former school. This is
(20)the building in the centre of the photograph, and to
the left of the photograph is the guardhouse. This
guardhouse is the guardhouse which was identified by (25)
• Q.: All right. Then continue, please, Mr. Ruez.
• Q.: That has to be better oriented on the ELMO, Mr. Ruez, and if you can get the whole image in. (5)
• A.: This photograph was taken on the 5th of July,
1995. The markings in white are the original markings
we received on this photograph from the State
Department, the U.S. State Department. The markings in
yellow are additional markings that we have added on
(10)these photographs according to the knowledge we have of
what can be seen on it. These vehicles that can be
seen on this photograph, 5 July 1995, are mobile bridge
trucks.
The photograph Exhibit 160/4 shows these
(15)bridge trucks still present there on the 8th April
1996. It is to enable you to compare ground picture
with aerial imagery in order to have a better view of
what the objects on the photographs represent. So on
the 5th July 1995, only these mobile bridge trucks were
(20)present in the compound.
The next exhibit, which is 160/5, is a
photograph from the same area taken 27 July 1995, and
one can observe that in addition to the mobile bridge
trucks, a front loader has arrived at the 5th Engineer
(25)Unit.
• A.: Correct. Exhibit 160/6 is a blowup of frame B of the (5)initial exhibit. The first photograph is dated July 5, and one can see on the photograph a tractor and a trailer. The Exhibit 160/7 shows the same area on the 27th of July, 1995. In addition to the trailer and the (10)tractor still present on the 27th of July, 1995, two trucks arrived and one additional front loader. Exhibit 160/8 is a blowup of frame C of the Exhibit 160/1. It just shows what was present there on the 5th of July, 1995. (15)The next photograph is 160/9. No equipment is to be seen on this photograph, no additional equipment, besides the vehicle which was already present there on 5 July, but there was some additional activity in this area due to traces on the ground in (20)this place. • Q.: When you say "traces," what do you mean? • A.: Vehicle traces. • Q.: Can you point those out to the Judges, please? (25)
• A.: In the centre of the picture, in this area
• Q.: And this particular engineering company, is this part of the Drina Corps? • A.: It is a Drina Corps unit, absolutely. (5) • Q.: All right. I've concluded then, Mr. Ruez, with those particular exhibits about the Engineering Unit, and if we could now turn to two exhibits that have been previously entered in through Captain Egberg's testimony, Prosecutor's Exhibit 87 and 88. (10)Now, Mr. Ruez, the Dutch soldier who testified before the Tribunal, Captain Egberg, testified that he was at this particular location near Nova Kasaba. First of all, can you identify in this aerial (15)image the location of the 65th Protection Regiment?
• A.: Yes. The 65th Protection Regiment was
billeting in a school just on the outskirts of the
hamlet of Nova Kasaba, and the school building, which
is the headquarters of the 65th Protection Regiment in
(20)July 1995, is the building at the bottom of this
picture. In front of it one can see that three buses
are present 13 July 1995 at 1400 hours, and the path
that exits the compound is the straight line going
toward the road which is on the upper right corner of
(25)the photograph.
• A.: Nova Kasaba is in the direction of the road which exits the photo at the top of the picture. (5) • Q.: Now, can we take a look at the next exhibit, Prosecutor's Exhibit 87 -- 88, I'm sorry. Captain Egberg identified this particular location. What is this location? • A.: This is the same school that shall be seen on (10)the aerial imagery. It is the compound of the 65th Protection Regiment. It's a photograph which was taken in April 1996. • Q.: Did you take this photograph? • A.: Yes, I did. (15) • Q.: All right. Thank you very much. MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, I've finished with that. • Q.: Now, Mr. Ruez, I'm going to show you a video film. It will be brief. It will be -- it's Exhibit (20)66, and it is an interview with General Krstic. I'm going to ask you some questions after you've had an opportunity to look at the film.
MR. HARMON: So if we could dim the lights,
please, and if we could show Prosecutor's Exhibit 66.
• Q.: Mr. Ruez, do you know when this film was shown publicly and where it was shown? • A.: This film was broadcasted on Serbian news, (5)which is VRS Television, the 13th of July, 1995. • Q.: Now, we've had another witness in this court look at this film, Colonel Kingori, and Colonel Kingori concluded that that film was taken in Potocari. Do you agree with Colonel Kingori's conclusion? (10) • A.: Yes, I do agree with Major Kingori's conclusions. • Q.: How many times, approximately, have you been to Potocari? • A.: I did not count them, but I would say (15)probably ten times. • Q.: I would like you to use four exhibits, and show the Court, if you would, why you agree with Colonel Kingori.
MR. HARMON: And if we could have
(20)Prosecutor's Exhibits 5/4, 5/19
[realtime transcript
read in error "5/15"], 5/5. We need them in an
ensemble so we can go through this testimony fairly
quickly. You can place 5/4 on the ELMO.
We won't start your testimony yet, Mr. Ruez.
(25)We'll wait until we have the exhibits before us.
MR. HARMON: I said, "5/5, 5/19, 5/4," and (5)then we have a new exhibit, which is Prosecutor's Exhibit 184. MR. FOURMY: Because the transcript says "5/15". MR. HARMON: And there's a new exhibit, 184. (10)If that 184 could be distributed, then I'll start the examination of Mr. Ruez. • Q.: Mr. Ruez, if you would identify, by number, the exhibits when you testify about them. I would like you to take the Chamber through these exhibits, and (15)tell them why this last interview of General Krstic was taken in Potocari, why you have reached that conclusion. • A.: This is a photograph dated 13 July 1995, taken at 1400 hours. It shows the situation in (20)Potocari at that time. • Q.: The exhibit number on that, please?
• A.: The exhibit number of this one is 5/4.
In the centre of the picture, one can see in
the circle a crowd of people. These are people waiting
(25)to board the buses and have to go through the
• Q.: Which is below the oval and to the right of (15)the word that says "Trucks"? • A.: This is correct. MR. HARMON: May we have the next exhibit, please, 5/19.
• A.: This is another view of the area seen from
(20)the west. In the centre, a bit to the right, is the
so-called blue building
[indicates] Just behind this
blue building is the asphalt road that goes right off
the picture towards Srebrenica town
[indicates] Just
outside the frame of this photograph is the area where
(25)the separation line was
[indicates] And behind the
(5) MR. HARMON: If we could now turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/5. Place that on the ELMO, Mr. Usher.
• A.: This is again another view from Potocari, but
seen from the east. The blue building on this
(10)photograph is now on the top right of the photo • Q.: You're indicating, for the record, the top right-hand corner? (15) • A.: Yes, just before the so-called "white house," which was the detention centre for the men who were separated. On the left of this blue building, one can see a big group of trees. Just behind these trees is the approximate area where the interview took place. (20)This interview, which was broadcast on 13 July, was in fact given 12 July, 12 July, probably around noon or very early -- around noon, probably.
• Q.: Could you take a look at the last image,
which is Prosecutor's Exhibit 184, and explain this
(25)image to the Judges.
• Q.: Let me show you a still image from that interview. It's Prosecutor's Exhibit 158. (15)Mr. Ruez, over General Krstic's left shoulder there's an image of a man in the background with a full front face. Can you identify that man, please. • A.: Yes. The man that can be seen just behind General Krstic is Colonel Vujadin Popovic, the Chief of (20)Security for the Drina Corps. MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, thank you very much.
• A.: Also, sorry, this is a picture also where one
can see on the top right, you can see a bit of a blue
structure with -- on top of it, it's very shady on this
(25)photograph, but this probably should be one of the two
MR. HARMON: Could you keep that photo on the ELMO, please, Mr. Usher, and if you could now get Prosecutor's Exhibits 28/8 and 28/8.1 [Realtime (5)transcript read in error "128 and 128/8.1"] • A.: On this still there is a truck just behind General Krstic that hides the view of the building. • Q.: The man you have identified as Popovic in this particular image, which is Prosecutor's Exhibit (10)58, I'd like to show you two new exhibits -- two older exhibits, 28/8 and 28/8.1, and ask you if this is the same man who appears in Prosecutor's Exhibit 58. So if we could place 28/8 on the ELMO. Is that the same man who appeared behind General Krstic on the 12th of July (15)in Potocari? • A.: Yes, this is the same man. He looks a little bit younger on this photograph, which was extracted from news footage dated 1993. MR. HARMON: If we could now put the next (20)image on the ELMO, please.
• Q.: This is an image that was taken on the 11th
of July in Srebrenica. The man on the left-hand side,
in a brown T-shirt, carrying what looks like an
automatic weapon in his left hand, is that the same man
(25)who appeared behind General Krstic in the interview on
• A.: Yes. The man on the left of the photograph, in a T-shirt, carrying an AK-47, is again Lieutenant Colonel Vujadin Popovic. (5) • Q.: Thank you very much, Mr. Ruez. MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, thank you.
• Q.: Now, Mr. Ruez, we've covered the first part
of your testimony, which is essentially to connect
various pieces of evidence with your knowledge. I'd
(10)now like to turn to the principal part of your
testimony and the reason why you were called back to
testify.
During the first part of your testimony,
which was extensive, you identified for the Trial
(15)Chamber a number of locations that were relevant to
this particular indictment. Now we're going to go to
the second chapter, if you will, in respect of many of
those sites; that is, I'm going to ask you to identify
various locations where mass graves are located, where
(20)people who were executed were buried. I'm going to ask
you to first of all orient the Judges by using
Prosecutor's Exhibit 187 to those locations and then
I'm going to ask you some additional questions after
you orient the Judges and the gallery to these
(25)locations.
• A.: Yes. So this map is another map of the crime
(5)scene of the Srebrenica case which has the specificity
to have the relief marked on it. The relief is fairly
accurate with the exception that Udrc Mountain on this
map doesn't seem as high as it is. For the rest, it is
an accurate representation of the relief of the area.
(10)The relief is a very important aspect in this
operation. A normal map would be less clear in terms
of showing how remote some of these places can be.
Going from north to south -- the symbols also
are different from the first map that you got as an
(15)exhibit during my initial testimony -- going from north
to south, the primary mass graves on this map are
marked with a triangle and two bodies in it. This is
the marking for a primary mass grave.
So in the north we have the Branjevo Farm.
(20)There is another symbol with an excavator in it meaning
that the site is a disturbed site.
In this area north, the second mass grave
that was identified is the mass grave of Kozluk. That
is marked with a triangle with two bodies in it. It is
(25)also a site that has been disturbed which is the reason
• Q.: Mr. Ruez, you used the word "disturbance" in your testimony. Do you mean that bodies were taken from the primary mass grave sites, dug up, transported, (20)and reburied in the secondary sites which are marked with yellow triangles?
• A.: Absolutely. The secondary sites are the
result of a disturbance of the primary ones, and the
bodies which were inside the primary graves, except
(25)those that were forgotten during this transfer process
(10) • Q.: Before we end with this particular exhibit, let me ask you: Are all the primary mass grave sites and the secondary mass grave sites depicted on this exhibit located within the Drina Corps area of responsibility? (15) • A.: Yes, indeed. All these sites are within the area of responsibility of the Drina Corps, and later on this map will have to be, in a way, overlaid on top of a map that will represent the areas of responsibilities of the various units that were present in this zone in (20)July 1995. • Q.: You can have a seat, Mr. Ruez.
MR. HARMON: Mr. President, my colleague has
inform me that the record may be inaccurate insofar as
Prosecutor's Exhibits 28/8 and 28/8.1, the pictures of
(25)Lieutenant Colonel Popovic. I think it may show on the
• Q.: Mr. Ruez, now I'd like you to develop for the (5)Trial Chamber the evidence showing that the primary mass grave sites were disturbed and the possible dates of those disturbances. I would also like you to develop the dates when the secondary grave sites were created. (10)You should have before you a series of exhibits from 161, ending with 169, and if you would start with the primary -- let's start with the primary sites, Mr. Ruez. Let's start with the primary site of Glogova, and if you would use those exhibits, please, (15)and give the Judges of this Trial Chamber the evidence that relates to that particular site.
• A.: Yes. Exhibit 161/A is the map of the area of
Bratunac and Glogova. The two red dots on this map
mark the location of the Glogova sites. The Glogova
(20)site is, in fact, separated in two; one that we name
Glogova 1 and the second one that we called Glogova 2.
These are grave sites. It doesn't mean that on each
site is only one grave.
Exhibit 161/1 shows the situation on the
(25)ground in the village of -- former village, I mean,
• Q.: Mr. Ruez, when you say "after the exhumation has been conducted," are you referring to the exhumation by the Office of the Prosecutor or are you referring to an exhumation by the VRS? (15)
• A.: This photograph is dated 1996, so it is in
fact the area after the initial burial and then after
the disturbance. So this one is just to indicate how
the area looked like at the site Glogova 1, and the
destruction also of the village.
(20)The Exhibit 161/3 is the ground view of the
site Glogova 2, which, as one can see, is close to a
former Muslim cemetery. That photograph was already
shown.
The Exhibit 161/4 shows the site Glogova 1.
(25)The photograph on the left is dated 27 July 1995, and
(10) • Q.: So this is an aerial image of the disturbance, in other words, the removal of bodies that were initially deposited in this site being removed.
• A.: Yes. At this date, 20 October 1995, either
the work is still in progress since the excavator is
(15)still there, or the bodies have already been taken out
of this site and the excavator is probably soon going
to redump soil inside this empty hole and recreate a
flat surface there.
Exhibit 161/5 is an aerial photograph, dated
(20)30 October 1995, that shows that the site Glogova 1 is
finished in terms of disturbance, or the disturbance of
that site is done, but the site Glogova 2 is still
under disturbance. The same situation: either the
disturbance is already over and the bodies have already
(25)been taken away but the presence of the front loader in
• Q.: Now, when the Office of the Prosecutor conducted exhumations at these sites, did they also (15)find evidence that these sites had been disturbed? • A.: Yes, absolutely. • Q.: We won't go into detail, that will be the subject of additional testimony by witnesses who will be testifying after you, but I just wanted to have you (20)confirm that fact.
• A.: Yes. My colleague Dean Manning will give you
all the details about the findings inside these graves,
disturbed or not disturbed, and will provide all the
details regarding the connection of these sites, each
(25)with another.
• A.: Yes. For Glogova, the presentation is done. • Q.: Let's turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 162, (5)please, which is the primary mass grave site at Orahovac. Again, Mr. Ruez, if you would take the exhibits in sequence and develop for the Trial Chamber the history of that particular site.
• A.: Exhibit 162/A is the map of the area, and the
(10)circle marks the approximate location of the Orahovac
primary mass grave site.
The Exhibit 162/1 is a photograph that I took
on the 26th of April, 1997 in the hamlet of Lazete. It
shows two things: One, the aim of this photograph is
(15)to show this sign where, at the bottom of it, is
written in Cyrillic, "Orahovac," so that confirms the
name of this area. It will have some importance in the
future. In fact, the sign invites people in fact to go
to a restaurant which is on the right-hand side of this
(20)photograph.
Just behind that sign is a white building
which is what one witness thinks is a railway station,
and he hid in this railway station just after having
escaped from the execution alive. He walked on the
(25)railway tracks and reached that location. This is just
(20) • Q.: On the 27th of July, this shows where the victims of this mass execution were buried; correct?
• A.: Yes, this is the initial burial location.
Exhibit 162/3 is a helicopter view of these
two sites. At the bottom of the photograph is the site
(25)number 1. This area here, it was a disturbed area on
• Q.: And this is the smaller of the two sites at (20)Orahovac? • A.: We cannot say that. It is the first site that was used, so most probably it is the bigger one. • Q.: All right.
• A.: At some point, the meadow was completely
(25)covered with bodies, so the execution was switched to
• Q.: All right. • A.: Exhibit 162/5 is aerial imagery of the second site of Orahovac which we call LZ-2. So the photograph (5)on the left shows the ground at the date of 7 September 1995. At the top of the picture, one can see the railroad line. I made a mistake. I mixed the two, in fact. The comment that I was making for the previous one is (10)for this one. This is the site number 2. • Q.: So this is the larger?
• A.: Yes, because site number 2 on the markings,
in fact it is the reverse in terms of the happenings
for the executions. The executions first happened on
(15)the site that we mark LZ-2 and then continued on the
site that we mark LZ-1. We discovered, in fact, this
change of chronology when we brought the witnesses back
on the crime scene.
The reason is that the victims inside the
(20)gymnasium never refer hearing about -- hearing the
shooting that is happening approximately 800 metres --
only 800 metres away from the gymnasium. We realised
the reason why when we went on the spot with the
survivors. The reason could be that there is a very
(25)quite high elevation of ground to support the railroad,
• Q.: What is the significance of this photograph, (15)Mr. Ruez?
• A.: This photograph, which is the LZ-2 site, but
that is the first execution site used on the 14th July
1995. On the left photograph, dated 7 September, one
can see the disturbed soil which is of a white colour
(20)on this photograph, and on the right is a photograph
dated the 27th September, and the area of disturbance
is clearly larger than the one dated 7 September,
indicating that something happened there. The
exhumation confirmed, indeed, that disturbance happened
(25)here.
• A.: No, we are moving on to the next one. (5) • Q.: Okay. Now, again if you develop the evidence about the disturbances that took place at the Dam at Petkovci, the location of the mass execution. • A.: Exhibit 163/A is the map of the area nearby Zvornik town and Kakanj, and the circle marks the (10)location of the plateau of the Dam where the execution took place and the burial of part of the victims; probably not all of the victims, since we don't know what happened with the victims that were -- corpses of the victims that were transported away by the little (15)trailer. Exhibit 163/1 is a helicopter view from the Dam, and the arrow at the right of the photograph shows the location of the disturbed soil where a mass grave was. (20)Exhibit 163/2 -- • Q.: Now, this is a before-and-after shot, is it? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Explain the "before" and explain the "after."
• A.: So 5 July 1995, the photograph at the left of
(25)this picture shows the Dam, the plateau of the Dam, and
• Q.: So that's where at least some of the victims (10)of that mass execution were initially buried?
• A.: Yes, the initial burial site. And on Exhibit
163/3, one can again see how the ground looked like on
the 7th of September, 1995. That is the part -- the
left part of this picture.
(15)And for comparison, the right part of the
picture dated 27 July 1995 shows that the area looks
slightly different. The fact is that here the
photograph is obviously not taken at the same moment of
the day.
(20)The photograph at the left is probably taken
around noon, and the one on the right, later in the
afternoon, so the shadows are very different on these
two photographs. That weakens the comparison, but we
can confirm that indeed the disturbance took place
(25)there because an exhumation was conducted, and the
(5) • Q.: Sometime prior to the 27th of September, 1995, the bodies were removed from each location; is that correct? • A.: Yes. From this photograph, the only conclusion we can draft is that the disturbance took (10)place at some point between 7 September 1995 and 27 September 1995. I must add also that all this is work in progress and that we might be able, in the future, to narrow down a bit better these dates. • Q.: All right. Why don't we turn to another (15)primary mass grave site, the primary mass grave site found at Kozluk. If you would start with exhibits found in tab 164. • A.: Exhibit 164/A is the map of the area of Kozluk, and the red circle marks the position of -- (20)approximate position of the mass grave -- of the execution site and mass grave of Kozluk. In fact, it is very close to the Drina River, so it is not a very accurate marking on this exhibit. The Exhibit 164/1 -- (25)
• Q.: This is a before-and-after shot, is it not?
• Q.: Would you explain, Mr. Ruez, the "before" and the "after"? (5)
• A.: Umm-hmm. The left part of these photographs
shows -- completely on the left, the Drina River. And
on the right part, it's an area of sand creeks. So
there had already been disturbed soil, but this
disturbed soil is linked with the dumping of garbage
(10)and broken glass from the Betinka
[phoen] factory, as
we know, but also because people go in this location to
take gravel out of these sand creeks.
The photograph dated 17 July 1995 shows that
the area has significantly been changed. We know that
(15)the execution took place on this location, and here the
burial of the victims is completed. There is an open
trench that is visible at the left of the photograph
• Q.: So on this image, on the 5th of July, the
(25)executions had not yet taken place, and therefore there
(5)
• A.: Yes, it is.
Exhibit 164/2 is a helicopter view of the
area. That was -- that photograph was presented during
my first testimony, and I present it again to make a
correction. This is, in fact, not the mass grave
(10)site. The mass grave site is just at the left of this
photograph. If one exits from the path that is just
here in the middle of the picture at the left • Q.: Let's go to the imagery that shows the disturbance of this primary mass grave, which is in Prosecutor's Exhibit 164/3. (25)
• A.: That exhibit again shows, at the left of this
(10) • Q.: Without going into any detail, there was evidence, then, at the subsequent exhumation conducted by the Office of the Prosecutor that this site had been disturbed? • A.: Yes. The exhumation conducted there (15)confirmed that indeed it was an execution site, an initial burial site, and that then the site was disturbed and bodies taken in an unknown direction. • Q.: Right. Mr. Ruez, let's turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 165 and the subsequent sub-parts of that (20)exhibit.
MR. HARMON: This deals with the Branjevo
Military Farm, and Your Honours have heard testimony
about a mass execution that took place at the Branjevo
Military Farm through the testimony of Drazen Erdemovic
(25)and survivors.
• Q.: This photograph is taken the day after the executions took place at the Branjevo Military Farm; is that correct? (20)
• A.: Yes. The execution there took place 16 July
1995, and this is the picture that we already showed
taken 17 July 1995, where bodies can be seen on the
ground; not all the bodies, because many of them have
already been taken away by that time. One can see the
(25)traces of the excavator that collected these bodies on
• Q.: Can you point out the area where the bodies are located? (5) • A.: Yes. Where it is written at the left of the picture: "Access ramp to mass grave," just underneath is the area where the grave was. Just at the edge of the grave is also a certain number of dots that are suspected bodies [indicates] (10) • Q.: And where are the principal killing fields? Can you point that out. • A.: Yes. On this photograph, the area that is encircled here only shows where the bodies are. The execution -- the site of the execution field was larger (15)than that. It covers, in fact, all the area where vehicle traces can be seen. MR. HARMON: And the Court has heard testimony from Mr. Erdemovic that approximately 1.200 people were killed at this location on the 16th of (20)July, 1995. • Q.: All right. Mr. Ruez, please, will you continue.
• A.: The photograph of the same farm taken the
21st of September, 1995, shows that the burial area
(25)that we had just been pointing at, which is more or
• Q.: This photograph, Mr. Ruez, is the "before" image, then, of the disturbance from the primary mass grave? (10) • A.: That is correct. • Q.: Now, this next image, what does this show, Mr. Ruez? • A.: The next picture shows the situation after. • Q.: And the next picture is 165/4. (15) • A.: It is dated 27 September 1995. It again shows the farm, and at the location where the grave is to be found, there is a newly-excavated trench. So most probably 27 July 1995, the bodies have already been taken out of that initial burial location. (20) • Q.: So sometime, Mr. Ruez, between the 21st of September and the 27th of September, there was a disturbance at that mass grave site?
• A.: Absolutely. We cannot conclude that the
excavation is completed at that moment, but it is the
(25)best frame of the date that we can have at this
• Q.: So a backhoe and a front loader are heavy construction equipment that would be used to excavate (10)the soil, and collect the bodies, and put them into trucks to transport them; is that correct? • A.: It is correct. It is two types of equipment that we will constantly see again in action on these areas. (15) • Q.: All right. Now, Mr. Ruez, I think that completes our tour of the primary mass grave sites. Is that correct? • A.: That's correct. • Q.: Now what I would like you to do is focus your (20)attention on the secondary grave sites, in other words, the locations where bodies were taken from these primary sites, concealed, and reburied. Why don't we start --
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Perhaps
(25)this is a good time for the break. In that case, we'll
--- Recess taken at 12.15 p.m. --- On resuming at 12.42 p.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] We will (5)resume the hearing. Mr. Harmon, please continue. MR. HARMON: • Q.: Mr. Ruez, just before the break you had concluded your discussion about disturbances at the (10)primary mass grave sites, and I'd now like to turn your attention to disturbances or the creation of the secondary mass grave sites and the clusters of those sites. I'd like you to first of all turn your (15)attention to Prosecutor's Exhibit 166, the cluster of secondary mass grave sites as Zeleni Jadar. Before you begin your testimony, using the large map to your right, using the pointer, could you just point out that particular cluster about which you're going to be (20)testifying. • A.: The cluster of secondary sites of Zeleni Jadar is just at the south of the former Srebrenica safe area, and it is just at the bottom right of the map exhibit. (25)
• Q.: Now, Mr. Ruez, using the exhibits that are
• A.: Yes. The first exhibit is number 166/A. It is the map of the area of Srebrenica. The green dots mark the precise position of these secondary mass (10)graves. • Q.: So there are six in total at this location. • A.: There are six sites in total. As we will see, one of these sites is, in fact, consisting of two graves. (15)Exhibit 166/1 is a large photograph, an overview of all the area of Zeleni Jadar. It cannot go completely under the ELMO so I will have it like this. This shows the terrain in Zeleni Jadar. It is a rough terrain of hills. It is a very remote area; nearly no (20)one is living in this place. It's a complete trashed zone; it was a former combat zone. There is no one living there. • Q.: It looks heavily wooded.
• A.: It is heavily wooded, and it is also heavily
(25)mined. There are several Bosnian Serb army minefields
• Q.: Will you just, while you have that image before you and before the Judges, just indicate ZJ-1. (10)I take that is the location of the first secondary mass grave side. • A.: This is correct. The coding "ZJ" stands for Zeleni Jadar, and "1" is the site number 1 which is the most north, and then the numbering goes from north to (15)south. • Q.: Could you just move that image completely across the ELMO so all of the sites can eventually be seen. • A.: Site number 6 is the most south. (20) • Q.: Please continue, Mr. Ruez.
• A.: Exhibit 166/2 is a before-and-after
photograph of the area where the site Zeleni Jadar 1 is
located. On the left of the picture one can see the
shape of the ground at the date of 7 September 1995,
(25)and on the picture on the right one can see that there
• Q.: Mr. Ruez, so what we know from this image is sometime between the 7th of September, 1995 and the 2nd (15)of October, 1995 these secondary mass grave sites were created.
• A.: Between this time frame, an open pit is
created. For the moment it is still not a mass grave.
For the moment it is just an open pit.
(20)One can notice also the size of these pits.
There is no reference in size, but it's approximately a
tank size. You could probably enter this position with
a tank. So there is no reason to suspect such a hole
there. That could be very well something like a
(25)defensive position. The fact is at that time there was
• Q.: Why don't you show the next image and show (5)the Judges what happened at this location at a later date. • A.: Exhibit 166/3 shows again the same area, but now the picture on the left is dated 18 October 1995. The same open pit is visible on the photograph. So the (10)situation between 2 October 1995 and 18 October 1995 is unchanged. The same open pit south of Zeleni Jadar 1 is also still open. On the right of the photograph, at the date 20 October 1995, Zeleni Jadar 1 is now a filled grave (15)and the suspect hole south of Zeleni Jadar 1 is filled as well. The site had been probed, and it is indeed a mass grave. • Q.: Which site has been probed? • A.: The Zeleni Jadar 1 site has been probed only (20)so far. So one can conclude from these photographs that between 18 October 1995 and 20 October 1995 the site was filled with bodies. Now we're moving on to Zeleni Jadar 2 site, which is Exhibit 166/4. (25)
• Q.: Exhibit 166/4.
(10) • Q.: So by "disturbed," you mean the bodies in this secondary site were removed and located some place else. • A.: Yes, absolutely. • Q.: Please continue, Mr. Ruez. Go to the next (15)before-and-after shot.
• A.: Exhibit 166/6 is a before-and-after
photograph of the site that we name Zeleni Jadar 3. On
the picture dated 7 September 1995, on the left of the
screen, one can see the ground before a change occurs,
(20)and at 2 October 1995, one can see that there is an
open hole which is marked on this photograph with
yellow markers "Zeleni Jadar 3."
The next photograph is the same site. It is
the Exhibit 166/7. The photograph is a bit fuzzy but
(25)still shows that at 20 October 1995 the hole does not
• Q.: So between the 2nd of October, 1995 and the 20th of October, 1995 the hole was filled with human (5)remains.
• A.: With human remains, absolutely.
The following exhibit is 166/8. It shows two
sites that are in the vicinity of each other. The
photograph at the top of this picture is dated 7
(10)September 1995 and shows nothing special. Compared
with the photograph dated 12 October 1995, one can
observe that there are two open pits created in that
location, so created between 7 September and 12
October. One is code-named Zeleni Jadar 4 and the
(15)second one is Zeleni Jadar 5.
We will mark on the picture 7 September where
these sites are because the photograph is taken from
another angle and this transforms the landscape a bit.
The Zeleni Jadar 5 site -- this does not work -- the
(20)Zeleni Jadar 5 site is in that location and Zeleni
Jadar 4, on the photograph dated 7 September, would be
where I put the second arrow, which is here. So a
slightly different perspective than the photograph
dated 2 October 1995.
(25)In 12 October 1995, so we have open pits in
• Q.: Now, has that site been probed or exhumed? • A.: The site has been probed and the presence of multiple remains was found there. • Q.: Mr. Ruez, does that complete your review of (10)the secondary sites at Zeleni Jadar? • A.: This is correct. So we have six confirmed secondary sites in Zeleni Jadar, and a potential number 7 grave which could be, in fact, the one just south of the site number 1. We will determine that probably (15)this year. • Q.: Mr. Ruez, I'd like you to focus your attention on the cluster of secondary sites now at the Hodzici road. Would you again begin by pointing out on the large map where that cluster of secondary grave (20)sites is located.
• A.: The Hodzici sites are just at the west of
Zvornik town. It is a dirt road that goes from Zvornik
to the national road that then goes to Tuzla. It's a
dirt road. It's an area of destroyed villages formally
(25)occupied by Muslims in 1992.
• A.: Yes, the same situation, with a difference with the others, which are mainly in valleys. This one (5)is along a road which follows a hill line. • Q.: All right, Mr. Ruez, thank you. • A.: So regarding these sites, the Exhibit 167/A is the map of the area, and the green dots mark the precise position of seven sites which have been found (10)and probed and confirmed as mass graves containing human remains. Some of them have been fully exhumed. Exhibit 167/1 is an aerial photograph -- a mosaic of several photographs reconstructing the so-called Hodzici road. (15) • Q.: Can you explain the coding, please, on the exhibit? • A.: Yes. So all the sites we have worked on are marked on this photograph, starting with HZ-1 -- that stands for Hodzici 1 -- through Hodzici 7, with very (20)precise spot marking where these graves are.
• Q.: Mr. Ruez, on the caption on the lower
right-hand image, it says "Cerik Road Segment." The
other two captions say "Hodzici Road Segment." Just
for the record, will you explain the difference,
(25)please?
• Q.: But for purposes of this testimony, all of (5)these sites are referred to as the Hodzici road? • A.: Yes. Cerik is the village closest from the graves Hodzici 6 and Hodzici 7. The reason why? On that photograph initially, the area was not just Cerik but was also closer to Hodzici, which is why they were (10)named "Hodzici." For us, we named the entire road "Hodzici." • Q.: All right. With that clarification, please continue. • A.: Exhibit 167/2 is a photograph of soil, dated (15)7 September 1995, where a grave will be created later on. • Q.: For the record, Mr. Ruez, this is a location -- a "before" shot of the location where Hodzici 1 or 2 is located? (20) • A.: This is a photograph where the site 2 will be located. • Q.: All right.
• A.: The site 1 -- I have to confirm -- correct
something. Site 1 has been trenched, probed, and was
(25)negative. The site 1 does not exist.
• A.: So the second exhibit is number 167/3 and shows the same terrain but dated 7 October 1995, (5)showing that in between the 7 September 1995 and that date, 7 October 1995, an area of disturbed soil can be seen here. • Q.: You mean "2 October 1995," not "7"? • A.: 2 October 1995. And this is the site of (10)Hodzici 2. The next exhibit, 167/4, showed the area where the site 3 will be created. This photograph is dated 7 September 1995. It just shows the dirt road and the hills around it with trees. (15)And the second -- the Exhibit 167/5 shows the same terrain 2nd October 1995, where there is a clear disturbance of soil that marks the position of the Hodzici 3 site. • Q.: So between the 7th of September, 1995, and (20)the 2nd of October, 1995, the Hodzici Road 3 site -- secondary grave site was created?
• A.: That is correct.
Exhibit 167/6 shows a cluster of destroyed
houses. The photograph is dated 7 September 1995. And
(25)in the vicinity of this cluster of destroyed houses,
(5) • Q.: Mr. Ruez, let me correct the record. The two sites were created, according to your testimony just a moment ago, between the 7th of September and the 7th of October, 1995? • A.: Sorry, a misspelling for me. It is the 2nd, (10)not the 7th. It's my spelling that makes the confusion. • Q.: They were created between the 7th of September, 1995, and the 2nd of October, 1995? • A.: Yes, absolutely. (15) • Q.: All right. • A.: The next exhibit, 167/8, is a photograph again dated 7 September 1995 -- • Q.: Mr. Ruez, I'm sorry. Could you go back to the previous exhibit, the one on the 2nd of October, (20)1995. • A.: Yes, where now one can see two areas of disturbed soil that are, for us, the site of Hodzici 4 and Hodzici 5. • Q.: And have both of those sites been probed? (25)
• A.: Yes, and they both contain remains. There
• Q.: So between the 7th of September, 1995, and the 2nd of October, 1995, HZ-7 was created? • A.: Absolutely.
• Q.: Would you just keep that picture on the ELMO
(25)for a minute, Mr. Ruez. These are aerial images taken
• A.: Yes, I've been to this series of graves. But I didn't -- I was not part of the mission that we (5)conducted to pinpoint them. I went to them after that, that is, another case for the other one we are talking about where -- was on the mission where we actually found them. These ones were found during another mission. We found these ones with the assistance of (10)the aerial imagery. Without this aerial imagery provided by the US government, never ever would we have found this site south of Zvornik. • Q.: Why is that? • A.: Because, as you will see on a film that we (15)show later, vegetation grows very fast, and with the normal means of observation and probing, we would never have been able to find these places. The methods we used -- we used in 1996 to find graves and probe graves was not fairly sophisticated enough to enable us or (20)give us a chance to find these sites with normal techniques. Without the assistance of imagery analysts, we would never have found these places south of Zvornik.
• Q.: All right. Mr. Ruez, have you finished now
(25)the testimony about the secondary sites along this
• A.: Yes. • Q.: Let's turn now your attention to the third set of secondary mass graves, those at Liplje. Again, (5)if you would kindly approach the large exhibit, using the pointer, and indicate where that cluster of secondary mass graves is located. • A.: The cluster of Liplje sites is just where the village of Liplje is marked on the map just south-west (10)of Zvornik town. It is also a former Muslim village and is completed destroyed. • Q.: Can you give a general description of the terrain at that location? • A.: All the area south-west of Zvornik is an area (15)of hills and valleys. They just continue one after another. One could quickly get lost on all the paths which one can travel on with four-wheel drive vehicles in this area. There are a lot of hiding places there. • Q.: I take it this is not a heavily populated (20)area where this set of secondary graves was located.
• A.: Before 1992, it was populated. But during
the war, I mean, just after the ethnic cleansing
campaign of 1992, there were no Muslims left living in
this area, and no one lived there during the last
(25)years.
• Q.: Mr. Ruez, please make your presentation in respect of these Liplje secondary mass graves sites. • A.: The Exhibit 168/A is the map of the area of (10)Zvornik that shows the precise location of the Liplje secondary graves, where we have four sites. The green dots numbered from 1 to 4 mark the locations of these graves. The next exhibit is 168/1, and it's an (15)overview of the area of Liplje, where all the graves can be seen. From the right to the left, the right of the picture being the north on the ground, is Liplje 1 through Liplje 4. There is an additional problem now in this area. It's that the town of Zvornik is using (20)the area in between the Liplje site 4 and the Liplje site 3, and has a garbage dump site for Zvornik town. The situation started in 1996, and now the garbage is at the edge of these graves.
• Q.: Now, Mr. Ruez, LP-1 is the code for Liplje 1,
(25)and all the way through --
• Q.: -- to LP-4? • A.: Yes, it is. "LP" is the code name for "Liplje." (5) • Q.: All right. Please proceed with your before-and-after images.
• A.: The next image will focus on the first site,
which is Liplje 1.
Exhibit 168/2 shows an area of completely
(10)destroyed houses where, aside from these destructions,
nothing specific is to be observed. The photograph is
dated 7 September 1995, so it is a "before" shot for
the sites Liplje 1 and Liplje 2.
Exhibit 168/3 is a photograph of the same
(15)location, with two differences on it -- really three
differences.
The first one is an area of disturbed soil
behind a house, a destroyed house, and this is the
location of grave Liplje 1; probed, confirmed presence
(20)of multiple remains in this site.
On the same picture, one can see, more south,
right, on the photograph, the location of the site of
Liplje 2. That site had been fully exhumed. But one
can also notice on that photograph that there is an
(25)area of disturbed soil at the top of the picture above
• Q.: For the record, to clarify the record again, your testimony reflects a date of the 7th of October, 1995. I think you had meant the 2nd of October.
• A.: 2nd October 1995. On this photograph, also
(20)the title says "Snagovo." Again, it's just a question
of naming the place. We call all these sites Liplje,
even though this is not exactly Liplje village. It's
just that Liplje is the main village in this area.
The next exhibit is 168/5. It is again a
(25)photograph dated 7 September 1995, where there is
• Q.: Mr. Ruez, would you put an "LP-1" and an "LP-2" so the record is clear. (5) • A.: [Marks] Done. The last photograph is Exhibit 168/1 [sic] and it shows the result of a quick probe that was conducted there when we first went to this area. That was in 1997. That is a very shallow grave with human (10)remains inside. Many bones are scattered around. All these bones have attracted a lot of attention these last weeks in the area and things will have to be done this summer to solve this situation. • Q.: Just to clarify the record, the record (15)reflects that this exhibit that's on the ELMO, in the record is 168/1 and it should be 168/8. • A.: This concludes the presentation for the Liplje sites. • Q.: Now, Mr. Ruez, let's go to our final location (20)and final cluster of secondary mass grave sites on the Cancari road. Using the pointer, please indicate on the large map the location of the Cancari road.
• A.: The Cancari road is located south of Zvornik
again. It is a valley which is quite long. It's a
(25)10-kilometre-long valley entering this area, and there
• Q.: Can you describe the terrain, please. (10) • A.: It's a long and narrow valley at some point but larger at other ones. It's an area completely destroyed also. Again, it's an area which was in the majority populated by Muslims, but not only probably. Combat also has taken place in all this area in 1993 (15)and 1994, so the destruction here is a mixture of dynamiting houses and combat activities. This is the main cluster of graves that we have. There are 12 secondary graves along a stretch of eight kilometres of dirt road there. (20) • Q.: All right. Mr. Ruez, continue with your presentation about the secondary graves at Cancari road.
• A.: Exhibit 169/A is a map of the area that spots
the precise location of all these graves, starting from
(25)the east to the west with number 1 through number 12.
• Q.: Mr. Ruez -- • A.: The site number 1 will be just at the bottom corner of the last photograph on the right. (15) • Q.: So the record is clear, "CR" is the code designation for Cancari road. • A.: Absolutely. • Q.: And the numbers designate the specific secondary mass grave sites. (20) • A.: Yes. MR. HARMON: Mr. President, our next exhibit is going to be a film. It will be approximately ten minutes. It's Prosecutor's Exhibit 169/2.
• Q.: Mr. Ruez, would you explain to the Judges
(25)what they will be seeing on this particular film, and
• A.: Yes. In reality there is not much to be seen on that film, and this is the purpose of showing it. The film was filmed while we were conducting the (5)exhumation -- I mean, Professor Richard Wright was conducting the exhumation at the Cancari 12 site. We used the opportunity of his presence to pinpoint for him the location of all the other sites. So I used the opportunity to take very brief video footage of all (10)these sites, with the exception of 12 where the exhumation was ongoing, in order to show how the terrain looks like after a couple of years of vegetation growing in these places. So in reality there will be nothing to be seen on the film aside from (15)vegetation, but this is the interest of the film. • Q.: The vegetation shows that -- conceals, in fact, the -- • A.: Shows that it is very well-concealed, and if someone has not very, very precise information -- in (20)fact, from an aerial photograph there is nearly no way that you would find the place except if he knows where he dug the hole. • Q.: All right.
MR. HARMON: If we could dim the lights,
(25)please, and if we could show Prosecutor's Exhibit
• Q.: Mr. Ruez, please feel free to make comments
during the transmission of this film. (5)
• A.: So this site is the site of Cancari 11. The
site, in fact, was just at the right when I started to
film, and here I'm doing kind of a 360-degree tour.
Just at the left here is a Muslim cemetery. The film
is dated summer 1998. So the location of the grave is
(10)just there, right in the middle of the picture. No one
would notice any difference in the soil if he would not
know that there is a grave here. And here I'm zooming
on a few other gravestones. So here the site has been
obviously created on purpose in a former cemetery. No
(15)steady shot of the camera, I'm sorry. This is why the
picture is moving so much.
This is now the Cancari 10 site which is
here, just in front. No difference with the rest. And
here you can see the shape of the houses in this
(20)environment.
Now the site number 9. Site number 9 is now
here where these -- just here, where these white stones
are, just alongside the road.
Now Cancari 8. Cancari 8 is just here where
(25)these bushes are visible. The only thing visible are
(15) MR. HARMON: • Q.: Mr. Ruez, now would you take us through the before-and-after images -- • A.: Yes. • Q.: -- of Cancari 1 through Cancari 12. (20) • A.: The first site, Cancari 1, it will -- for all these series of photographs, they will all be framed between 7 September 1995 and 7 [sic] October 1995. So the first one, the Cancari 1 site --
• Q.: Mr. Ruez, let me again correct the record.
(25)They will be framed between 7 September 1995 and, the
• A.: Yes, 2 October. • Q.: All right. Thank you. • A.: So the photograph dated 7 September 1995, (5)where the site Cancari 1 will be created later, so Exhibit 169/4 -- • Q.: And the previous exhibit is 169/3 that's on the ELMO -- • A.: Yes. (10) • Q.: -- the "before" picture. • A.: Correct. It shows the same area but with a date of October 2nd, and it shows clearly the area of the disturbance. This site was probed. All of them have been probed. Some of them have even been probed (15)twice; once when we found them and another later on by Professor Wright to ensure that the assessment is 100 per cent certain. • Q.: When you say "probed," the conclusions of the probing was that there were multiple human remains (20)found at each of these locations. • A.: Yes. • Q.: Thank you.
• A.: I could have also shown you photographs of
these remains for each of these sites, but it would
(25)have been much more lengthy, and you will see more of
(5) • Q.: Now, Mr. Ruez, let me just stop you on that image right there. Are there traces of heavy engineering equipment being used at this location in this image? • A.: Yes, definitely. All these traces of (10)disturbance are not done by manual digging but by heavy equipment. • Q.: All right.
• A.: Exhibit 169/13 is a photograph dated 7
September and shows the site number 7 just in between a
(15)destroyed house and the road, nearby a destroyed
vehicle.
And 2 October 1995 is the Exhibit 169/14.
The site is marked on the photograph and the vehicle
that you could see on the film dated 1998 was already
(20)there in 1995. I'm going to circle it on the picture
• Q.: That's site CR-9.
• A.: This is the site CR-9.
The next exhibit is 169/19. It will show
where the CR-10 site has been created. It will be just
(25)in front of the destroyed house, on the opposite side
• Q.: Again on that particular image, Mr. Ruez, are there traces of heavy construction equipment evident? • A.: Yes. You can see large tyre tracks which (10)most probably had been made by an excavator on wheels, UNT-type, UNT machine. The following exhibit is 169/27 and is a photograph dated 7 -- 2nd October 1995, showing that the trench that existed the 27th has been filled (15)between the 27th September and the 2nd of October. This site has been fully exhumed in 1998 and contained -- I don't have a precise number in my head, but -- • Q.: You don't have to worry about that, (20)Mr. Ruez. There will be subsequent testimony about the number of bodies that were exhumed from that particular site. • A.: Yes.
• Q.: Let me turn, Mr. Ruez, because our next
(25)exhibit is going to be a film, Prosecutor's Exhibit
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, perhaps we need to have a break, because to continue until 2.30 without a break, I think, it will be too (5)much for the interpreters. So maybe we should have a 15-minute break now, and then we'll go on until 2.30. --- Recess taken at 1.50 p.m.
--- On resuming at 2.07 p.m. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, please continue. MR. HARMON: • Q.: Mr. Ruez, we're now going to see a film, Prosecutor's Exhibit 169/28. And as we usually do, (15)will you please inform the Judges and the public gallery what will be seen on this particular piece of evidence. • A.: This film will show the exhumation in Cancari 12 site. It was the first full exhumation of a (20)secondary site, so it will be only an example of that kind of activity that we will present to you visually in film format.
MR. HARMON: If we could reduce the lights,
please, and if we could play Prosecutor's Exhibit
(25)169/28, please.
MR. HARMON: • Q.: Mr. Ruez, please feel free to comment during the course of this viewing. I think we have a re-run. (5)Is this a film we have previously seen or is this --
• A.: No, this should be the good one.
We initially saw the location of the site,
and this is the surroundings. This is a film that I
had filmed at the time of the exhumation.
(10)This is the path leading towards Cancari 11
and the exit of a valley.
This is a 360-degree tour of the environment
of this site. There is a mixed resettling there. Some
Serbs were settling in the area in 1998, and now
(15)Muslims are returning in the area.
These are two surveyors who are, in fact,
creating a very precise map of the grave area, and you
will see them later on plotting every single object
inside the grave.
(20)This is Richard Wright seen from the back,
and the little backhoe is now scooping the soil in
order to identify the perimeter of the grave. That's
the first activity that Professor Wright does on a
grave site.
(25)So the first part of the process is to scoop
(25)
THE REGISTRAR: I spoke with the technical
THE WITNESS: Okay. No problem. MR. HARMON: We can raise the lights. We've finished with the exhibit. (5)Mr. Ruez, I have concluded my examination. Mr. President, Judge Wald, that concludes the presentation of Mr. Ruez on direct examination. Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So we will (10)resume perhaps tomorrow with the cross-examination of Mr. Ruez. For today we cannot continue. We will meet again tomorrow, here, at 9.30. --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.30 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday, (15)the 26th day of May, 2000, at 9.30 a.m. |
