(Compilation Date 24/01/2003 by Desaster Area)

IMPORTANT! Please read the DISCLAIMER!

Content / Colormap

(1)Tuesday, 21 March 2000
[Closed session]

--- Upon commencing at 9.38 a.m.
[The accused entered court] pages 878-944 redacted - closed session.

• Page 945 • {68/105}

(1) [redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
(5) [redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
(10) [redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
(15) [redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted]

(20) --- Recess taken at 12.05 p.m.

--- On resuming at 12.24 p.m.
[Open session]

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I can see that Mr. Cayley is about to take the floor.

(25) MR. CAYLEY: I'm getting no sound at all, so

• Page 946 • {69/105}

(1)I will change headsets. I think that's fine. My apology for that.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Is it okay now?

(5) MR. CAYLEY: It's perfect. Thank you, Mr. President. With your permission, if I could call the Prosecutor's next witness, which is Mr. Nesib Mandzic.
[The witness entered court]

(10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Could the usher please help the witness with the headphones. Can you hear me, Mr. Mandzic?

THE WITNESS: Yes, I can, Your Honour.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You're now (15)going to read the solemn declaration, please.

THE WITNESS: [Int.] I, Nesib Mandzic, solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

WITNESS: NESIB MANDZIC
(20) [Witness answered through interpreter]

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You may sit down, Mr. Mandzic. Thank you. Are you comfortable, Mr. Mandzic?

THE WITNESS: [Int.] Could I have (25)translation into Bosnian, please.

• Page 947 • {70/105}

(1) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] But you understand French; is that the case?

THE WITNESS: [Int.] No.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Could the (5)usher please check the channel. Can you hear me in your language now?

THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes. Yes, I understand now.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well, (10)then. Thank you very much for coming here, Mr. Mandzic. First of all, you are going to answer questions put to you by Mr. Cayley, who is representing the Prosecution. Mr. Cayley, you have the floor.

(15) MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

• EXAMINED by Mr. Cayley:

• Q.: Now, Mr. Mandzic, I think you were born on the 12th of November, 1962; is that correct?

• A.: Yes, that is correct.

(20) • Q.: And I think by profession you're a schoolmaster; is that correct?

• A.: Well, by profession I'm an electrical engineer, but prior to the war I used to work in a secondary school as a teacher in Srebrenica, and also (25)during the war I stayed in the same school, the

• Page 948 • {71/105}

(1)secondary school in Srebrenica, for a year and a half.

• Q.: And I think at the time of the events with which this court is interested, in July of 1995, you were the head teacher at that school in Srebrenica.

(5) • A.: Yes, that's correct.

• Q.: Until January of 1993 you were a member of the Territorial Defence of Bosnia-Herzegovina; is that correct?

• A.: Yes.

(10) • Q.: And in January of 1993 I think you left the Territorial Defence.

• A.: Yes, that is correct.

• Q.: And you are a Muslim by faith?

• A.: Yes. I'm a Bosniak by nationality.

(15) • Q.: Yes. What is your present position within the municipal government in Srebrenica?

• A.: At present I'm the president of the Srebrenica municipality. After the legal -- in accordance with the results of the legal elections that (20)took place in 1997.

• Q.: I want to now take you back to July of 1995, and it's important, as we've already discussed, that you, in response to my questions, you tell the Judges exactly what you heard and saw at the time, how you (25)felt about things, and your perceptions about the

• Page 949 • {72/105}

(1)feelings about the population in Srebrenica while these events in July of 1995 were taking place. Let us go to the 8th of July, 1995. Where were you on that day?

• A.: On that day, the 8th of July, 1995, I was in (5)Srebrenica, in the central area of the town, in the Petrica Street. This is actually where I lived as a refugee for more than three years.

• Q.: Now, on that day, can you tell the Judges what you saw taking place?

(10) • A.: On the 8th of July, 1995, late in the afternoon I saw columns of people, columns of refugees who had fled a temporary settlement, a temporary shelter that was conducted by the Swedish government in the place called Slapovici. The place was attacked by (15)the artillery of the Serb forces as well as the infantry, and was exposed to an aggression by foot soldiers who entered the said village. They started, according to what those people had said, they started burning down the houses, that is, the temporary shelter (20)that they were using at the time. So on that day in the afternoon, in the street where I used to live, I saw thousands of displaced people who were terrified. There were quite a few elderly people, very weak people, lots of women (25)with small children who were crying. They were in a

• Page 950 • {73/105}

(1)state of shock. They were looking for some kind of accommodation, some food, clothes, and so on, but that could not be found in Srebrenica in those days, nor could it be found before that, in the previous months. (5)I have to stress that on that day, although a number of columns of refugees were pouring in, the artillery fire of the Serb army never stopped. Shells were falling in the town area, including the places where the refugees were staying, looking for some (10)accommodation that could not be provided.

MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Exhibit 4A, Mr. Dubuisson.

• Q.: These individuals, Mr. Mandzic, were they residents originally from the area where the Swedish (15)Housing Project was located or were they from other parts of Bosnia-Herzegovina? Mr. Mandzic, if you could answer that question first.

• A.: Yes. These people were mostly refugees, displaced persons who, due to aggressive actions of the (20)Serb army, had been expelled from their homes in 1992 and 1993. By a decision of a Swedish government in 1993, some kind of temporary accommodation, a camp, was built for that particular group of refugees. They had come from a number of (25)municipalities, Srebrenica, Bratunac, Vlasenica, and so

• Page 951 • {74/105}

(1)on. However, the majority of the people who were temporarily accommodated in that housing project were from the area of the Srebrenica municipality, from the inhabited areas that were exposed to the actions of the (5)Serb army units. As a result of those operations, the population was expelled. A number of people had also died in those operations but quite a few of them, therefore, found themselves in Srebrenica. (10)At the beginning of 1993, they were all staying in this shelter project in the village of Slapovici.

• Q.: Could you point to the village of Slapovici on the map in front of you?

(15) • A.: Here it is in the upper left corner
[indicates]

MR. CAYLEY: Could the exhibit be moved up. I see. And let the record show that the witness is pointing to the bottom left-hand square where it says (20)Slapovici. That is Exhibit 4A.

• Q.: Thank you very much indeed. Let's now move, Mr. Mandzic, to the 9th of the July. First of all, could you look at the map that is behind you, and if you could point to your location on the 9th of July in (25)Srebrenica. Just an approximation would be fine, so

• Page 952 • {75/105}

(1)the Judges can orient themselves as to where you were on that day.

• A.: Yes. What I'm showing here [indicates] is the town area of Srebrenica.

(5) • Q.: Let the record show that the witness is pointing to an area just below and to the right of where it says "UN Bravo Company" on Prosecutor's Exhibit 1E, and in particular where there is a very sharp, hairpin bend in the road going into Srebrenica.

(10) • A.: Yes. So this is the road leading up to Bratunac, and it goes further down to Potocari, Srebrenica, Zeleni Jadar, south-east, leading up to my birthplace, the village of Skelani.

• Q.: Thank you, Mr. Mandzic. Could you tell the (15)Judges what you saw taking place from your advantage place on the 9th of July, 1995?

• A.: Aggressive activities of the Serb army continued on the following date, that is, the 9th of July, 1995. The military forces of the Serb army (20)entered the areas inhabited by the people I mentioned. They started setting their houses on fire. As a result of that, the population was forced to flee so as not to end up in the hand of the soldiers of the aggressor. The offensive of the Army of the Republika (25)Srpska continued and moved further to the town area of

• Page 953 • {76/105}

(1)Srebrenica. On the following day, on the 9th of July, units of the Army of the Republika Srpska continued with their offensive and entered a number of Bosniak (5)villages such as Pusmulici, for example, Bajramovici. These villages are situated less than a one-hour walk from the centre of town. This again complicated the humanitarian situation in the town itself. All of these people (10)needed some kind of accommodation. They needed food, medicines, all of which was impossible to obtain. I personally was convinced, as well as the majority of the population, that due to the fact that Srebrenica had been declared by the United Nations a (15)safe area, that such aggressive acts and offensives of the Republika Srpska army would be stopped and that the humanitarian catastrophe would be prevented. What we feared most was a massacre of the civilian population and we hoped that this would be prevented. (20)Unfortunately, the acts of the Army of the Republika Srpska continued, and in the late afternoon of the 9th of July, the situation was the same. On the next day, the 10th of July, in the evening, units of the Republika Srpska army approached (25)the town area from the south and south-east side.

• Page 954 • {77/105}

(1)May I show this on the map, please? This would be the area in question [indicated], the area south-east and south of the town. They came very close to the town itself.

(5) • Q.: [Previous translation continue] ... Mr. Mandzic. Could you please demonstrate again where the VRS was on the 10th of July, on that exhibit?

• A.: Yes, I can show you that. This grey line here [indicated] marks, I believe, the area in (10)question, that is, the boundaries of the safe area. Approximately one or two kilometres away from that, depending on the features of the terrain, prior to the 6th of July, units of the Dutch Battalion had been stationed. They were there as part of UNPROFOR (15)forces. The offensive of the VRS was such that those points had to be moved further on. The Dutch troops had to withdraw. You know very well what the reasons for that were. The Serb forces continued along this (20)line, and on the 10th of July, they reached the first street of the town, the Petrica Street. This is the south-east part of the town. They also came from the direction of the village of Slapovici, from the south side of the town. The VRS army entered the village of (25)Slapovici on the 11th of July. So the VRS practically

• Page 955 • {78/105}

(1)captured the town from the southern part of the area, and they forced the population to flee.

• Q.: Mr. Mandzic, just again don't say anything, allow me to speak, because I need to indicate in the (5)record where you're pointing to on the exhibit. On the 10th of July, could you point on Prosecutor's Exhibit 1E where the location of the VRS is in Srebrenica?

• A.: These are the -- this is where the units (10)were, and this is the area of Zeleni Jadar
[indicates]

MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness again is pointing to the area just to the right of where it says "UN Bravo Company" within the area (15)marked as the UN enclave at the point in the road where there is a hairpin bend.

• Q.: Now, Mr. Mandzic, I'd like to show you some footage, a very short clip.

MR. CAYLEY: If the video booth could show (20)Prosecutor's Exhibit 3, the section from -- I think it's 10 seconds in to 31 seconds.

• Q.: Say nothing, Mr. Mandzic, while the video is playing, and then I'll ask you some questions after you've seen that video footage. Thank you.

(25) MR. CAYLEY: I apologise for the delay,

• Page 956 • {79/105}

(1)Mr. President.

• Q.: Mr. Mandzic, if you watch the screen in front of you.
[Videotape played]

(5) MR. CAYLEY: That's fine. Thank you. We can stop now.

• Q.: Mr. Mandzic, did you witness those events?

• A.: Yes, I did.

• Q.: Could you explain to the Judges what you saw (10)and heard on the 10th of July where that event was taking place and what the feelings of the population were at the time?

• A.: Yes, I can do that. The video that we just saw was taken on the 10th of July, 1995. As we can (15)see, there were thousands of residents of Srebrenica there. They were all terrified at that time because, as I have already told you, late in the afternoon of that day, the VRS had already entered the first street of the town from the south-east. (20)What I saw there was thousands of terrified people who felt helpless. They were asking for help. They turned to the military representatives of the United Nations, that is, to the Dutch soldiers who were there. They were asking for protection, but they (25)didn't get any answer, any response in terms of

• Page 957 • {80/105}

(1)protection. On that night, approximately 40.000 people in Srebrenica could have no sleep at all. I couldn't sleep either, of course.

(5) • Q.: Mr. Mandzic, could you just indicate on the map behind you the location of that large group of people that we've just seen on the video?

• A.: Yes. This gathering took place in front of the compound of the Vezionica factory in Srebrenica, (10)and it is marked on the map here [indicated] It's this area that I'm pointing now [indicated]

MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness is pointing to the blue square marked "UN Bravo Company" within the Srebrenica enclave on Prosecutor's (15)Exhibit 1E.

• Q.: Mr. Mandzic, let's move ahead in time to the 11th of July, 1995. You were still in the town of Srebrenica. Can you tell the Judges what you saw and heard on that day?

(20) • A.: If we are talking about the urban area of Srebrenica, from that area more than half of the population had been expelled, forced out due to the military activities of the VRS, who, as early as the 10th of July, started setting Bosniak houses on fire in (25)the Petrica Street. They were still firing from

• Page 958 • {81/105}

(1)infantry weapons and so on. On the 11th of July, after 11.00 a.m., the situation got further complicated, because the VRS opened fire from their artillery, targeting the (5)population itself and opening fire on the area where the population had gathered on the 10th of July, late in the afternoon. I was very close to the area, some 70 metres as the crow flies, on the other side of the street. I (10)was standing next to a building, and I could hear very well the sound of shells, artillery shells coming in. Immediately after that, I would actually see the shell fall on the group of between 5.000 and 10.000 refugees who were staying there, expecting some kind of response (15)from the UNPROFOR forces. They somehow felt safer in the vicinity of UNPROFOR. Immediately after this shell had fallen, I happened to see a terrible scene. I saw a column of smoke rising from the spot where the people had (20)gathered. I heard screams, moans. There were some wounded people there.

• Q.: On that day, I think there was an expectation that there would be airstrikes. How did the population in and around the UN Bravo Company react to these (25)rumours?

• Page 959 • {82/105}

(1) • A.: Yes. It is true that we expected the NATO air force to prevent the capture of the enclave and the exodus of the population. Until 11.00 a.m. those were some unreliable pieces of information that people (5)accepted in those situations, as a drowning man is looking for a straw to hold on to to save himself. So on that day for us, the only possibility, the only way out was for this type of action. Only in this way could the VRS be stopped. (10)In the afternoon of the 11th of July, I could see, as far as I can remember, two aeroplanes in the skies above Srebrenica, which did drop several bombs on, I believe, Serbian artillery positions. And as far as I can remember the area in question was south-east. (15)It was here [indicates], but it's not indicated on the map. There is a feature there called Kvarc, and I believe that that was the area where a radio transmitter was stationed. My feeling is that this (20)was -- this area was the target of the NATO Air Force. At any rate, this was close to the boundary of the safe area.

• Q.: Let's move on in time, Mr. Mandzic. The population started to move towards Potocari. Can you (25)tell the Judges when that happened and why it happened?

• Page 960 • {83/105}

(1) • A.: The population was forced to move. This happened on the 11th of July, around 4.00 p.m. The residents of the town started to move towards Potocari. They were actually forced to leave the last (5)part of the safe area, because the VRS had continued with its offensive activities. So the population was actually being pushed from the area. They couldn't go back. They couldn't go back to the enclave itself, because everybody could see Bosniak houses on fire at (10)that time. So in view of the situation, in view of the fear and feeling of helplessness, residents started to move towards Potocari, which was the last safe haven in the area, that is, the command of the Dutch battalion.

• Q.: Mr. Mandzic, are you aware as to whether or (15)not any senior member of the population, or members of the population, took a decision that the population would move to Potocari from Srebrenica?

• A.: It was no higher representative who would be inviting people to head for Potocari. It was all (20)civilian population and they all thought about Potocari. The majority of the civilians thought about Potocari, because the major part of the enclave had already been physically taken by the troops of the VRS and there was nowhere else to go. We could only (25)withdraw by a couple of kilometres further on towards

• Page 961 • {84/105}

(1)the Dutch compound at Potocari. So the passage of the civilian population through the area, even those areas that were inhabited by Bosniaks before the war, but they had been taken by (5)the armed forces of the Republika Srpska, so it was impossible to go through those places. Both the Serb artillery and infantry fire were targeting the population directly, and it seemed that their objective was to kill as many civilians as possible, to sow as (10)much panic, to sow as much chaos amongst them. And I can also corroborate by saying the following: On the 11th of July, I happened to be in the column of the civilian population on the road to Potocari. At that time the Serb artillery fired at (15)us. From the neighbouring hills we could clearly see that there were -- they could see that there were tens of thousands of refugees who were on their way to Potocari, to the Dutch battalion. But they were so aggressive that they simply opened direct fire on this (20)stream of refugees which was several kilometres long.

• Q.: Mr. Mandzic, try and speak more slowly, because there are interpreters that have got to keep up with you. I know it's difficult to speak about these events, but stay calm, and we'll get through your (25)testimony as quickly as I can.

• Page 962 • {85/105}

(1)Let's move to the evening of the 11th of July, 1995. Where do you find yourself?

• A.: I found myself at Potocari, or to be more accurate, within the compound of the 11 of March (5)Factory.

• Q.: Could you point on the map that's behind you the approximate location of where you were on the evening of the 11th of July?

• A.: Here [indicates]

(10) • Q.: Let the record show that the witness is pointing at Prosecutor's Exhibit 1E, to the red-coloured triangle, just below where it's marked "UN base," within the area marked as the Srebrenica enclave. (15)Can you tell the Judges the scene on the evening of the 11th of July in and around the UN compound at Potocari?

• A.: Yes, indeed. The scene was hair-raising. Something about 25.000 of those expellees [Realtime (20)transcript read in error "ex-police"] were crowding in a very small, in a very tight space. They tried to find some accommodation in some ancient factory.

• Q.: Mr. Mandzic, if you could stop there. There's a mistake in the transcript and then you said (25)the scene was hair-raising and then you said,

• Page 963 • {86/105}

(1)"Something about 25.000 of those..." Twenty-five thousand of whom?

• A.: The expellees, the expelled refugees, Bosniak people who had been expelled from the largest part of (5)the enclave, because only a minor part of the enclave was surviving, and that was Potocari.

• Q.: Please continue with your testimony.

• A.: At that very small space of perhaps less than one kilometre square, there were some 25.000 expelled. (10)Most of them were women with small children, elderly and emaciated people. We were all without food or water or medicines or clothing or footwear, accommodation, or anything. We expected that the International Community would give us protection, (15)fearing the worst from the Bosnian Serb army, and indeed I do remember that 11th of July, sometime around 2100, the Bosnian Serb army launched an operation. As far as I can remember, they opened artillery fire at this crowd, this multitude of people forced into that (20)space.

• Q.: Did you see the artillery firing?

• A.: Well, they fired over my head, over the heads of 25.000 people.

• Q.: Do you know roughly how far away they were, (25)the VRS artillery, when they were firing at this huge

• Page 964 • {87/105}

(1)multitude of people?

• A.: Some 300 to 500 meters. From different places, so I say it was 300 meters was the closest and 500 meters was perhaps the site furthest away.

(5) • Q.: How did the population react to this artillery fire?

• A.: We all tried to find some shelter, but there was none, so we simply threw ourselves down on the asphalt, somewhere in the street, that is, on the road (10)from Potocari to Bratunac, because they couldn't find any shelter whatsoever. So panic again started, screaming, and so --

• Q.: Do you know of any deaths or injuries that were caused by that artillery fire?

(15) • A.: As soon as this artillery fire stopped, the Dutch battalion called me, and so that night I could not really hear if there had been any wounded, because that night, between the 11th and the 12th, I spent in the camp of the Dutch soldiers.

(20) • Q.: And now we very neatly move on to the next part of your testimony. I think at about 9.30 that evening you were called by a representative of the Dutch battalion to act as a representative of the civilian population. Could you tell the Judges about (25)that, please.

• Page 965 • {88/105}

(1) • A.: Yes. Sometime around half past 9.00 that evening, between the 11th and the 12th of July, I was asked over the PA system to report to the Dutch battalion command. So I went to the commander of the (5)Dutch battalion. I did not know him before that, nor did I know any of their officers, except Major Boering, who used to come to the secondary school. So after I was introduced to the commander of the Dutch battalion and his officers, the Dutch (10)battalion commander, showing major concern, major anxiety, and sounding very pessimistic, said that, as he saw the situation, the Dutch soldiers, and he as a commander, could do very little at that particular point in time to help all those population who had (15)gathered force in Potocari; and also, as the commander said, the situation was also highly unfavourable for Dutch soldiers as well. According to the commander of the Dutch battalion, the only way out would be the negotiations (20)with the army of the Republika Srpska, and as far as I can recall, that the army of the Republika Srpska was demanding the Dutch officers to incorporate the Bosnian side in the negotiations. I commented, I said that I was not an (25)official representative of the civilian authorities in

• Page 966 • {89/105}

(1)the municipality of Srebrenica, and I said so to the Dutch commander, and that I therefore had no authority to represent anyone in a situation which was as complex as that one. And the Dutch battalion commander said, (5)"Yes, we do know that, but the situation is very dramatic. So come on behalf of these expelled people, because they, and we, and everybody, needs help." And having been given a promise by the Dutch battalion commander that if I joined the negotiations, (10)that I would be -- that my requests, that my conditions would be supported: that is, to begin with, to stop firing at the civilian population, to resolve the disastrous humanitarian situation; that is, to supply the population with food, water, other arms of hygiene (15)and so on and so forth. And after I was promised that, on the 11th of July, I set off for the negotiations in Bratunac.

• Q.: Mr. Mandzic, before we get to Bratunac, I want to go back to the conversation that you had with (20)the Dutch commander. Did the Dutch commander, Colonel Karremans, state to you what General Mladic had said to him about the refugees in and around Potocari and about his own soldiers that were, in fact, hostages at that time?

(25) • A.: As far as I can remember, I know that the

• Page 967 • {90/105}

(1)Dutch battalion commander said that the situation was also highly unpropitious for the Dutch soldiers who were on the UNPROFOR mission in Srebrenica.

• Q.: Did he state to you whether Mladic had said (5)anything about the safety of the civilian population in and around Potocari?

• A.: I don't remember. I do not know really what you have in mind.

• Q.: Let's move on. You then went with the Dutch (10)officers to Bratunac. How did you feel at that time?

• A.: Right below the camp of the Dutch soldiers in Potocari was the checkpoint of the VRS, and it was right there at this first checkpoint that we were stopped. And they asked who was I, I mean the soldiers (15)of the army of the Republika Srpska, and it was all in rather threatening tones. And even as I was on the road, I already was quite fearful. I didn't know what might happen to me. And I was thinking about the worst possible outcome, that I might be arrested and forced (20)to -- I don't know what. But I thought one thing, and one thing only, and that was to try, to try to do my best on behalf of the population which was left completely without any protection, because I could really see that the enclave was being taken and that an (25)area which had been protected by the United Nations was

• Page 968 • {91/105}

(1)being taken. On the other hand, the United Nations kept silent. And even the mildest type of reaction that they could have done, they could have sent in teams of (5)the International Red Cross at least there, or the UNHCR, to try to mitigate, to allay, to ease this difficult, this horrible situation, especially the humanitarian disaster. And in such good faith, to try to alleviate the suffering of the population, is that I (10)went to Bratunac, but I was really frightened.

MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, at this point we're going to move into some video evidence, and if it's your wish, we might take a short break at this time.

(15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Cayley. Very well. We shall then make a break, 20-minute break.

--- Recess taken at 1.20 p.m.

--- On resuming at 1.43 p.m.

(20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Cayley, you may continue.

MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President.

• Q.: Mr. Mandzic, if we can just reorient the Court where we were. You left the Potocari compound at (25)about 2200 hours on the night of the 11th of July, and

• Page 969 • {92/105}

(1)you find yourself with members of the Dutch Battalion driving towards Srebrenica?

• A.: Towards Bratunac.

• Q.: My apologies. You're quite correct. Towards (5)Bratunac. What time did you arrive in Bratunac?

• A.: Within approximately ten minutes.

• Q.: Where did you go within Bratunac?

• A.: We went to the Fontana Hotel in Bratunac.

• Q.: And I think it was there that you attended a (10)meeting with members of the VRS and the Bosnian Serb civilian authorities; is that correct?

• A.: Yes.

MR. CAYLEY: At this point, Mr. President, the Office of the Prosecutor would like to play a video (15)of that meeting. That video is a new exhibit. It's Exhibit 4D. My apologies. It's Exhibit 40. It's Exhibit 40. There are three transcripts of that meeting, in English, French, and in B/C/S. I would ask that the interpreters please (20)remain silent during the video, because I think it's important for the Court to get a sense of that meeting and the tone and intonation of the individuals who speak at that meeting. So if you don't mind, Your Honours, following in that transcript. It's an (25)accurate transcript of what was said at that meeting.

• Page 970 • {93/105}

(1)There are also some external noises that are actually quite important that need to be heard, and they would not be heard if the interpreters were speaking over the soundtrack.

(5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: Okay. We'll do so.

MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President. If the video booth could please play Exhibit 40.
[Videotape played]

MR. CAYLEY: Mr. Mandzic, first an obvious (10)question but for the purposes of legal foundation of the video: Is this a video recording of parts of the meeting that happened on the 11th of July, 1995, in the evening at the Hotel Fontana?

• A.: Yes. I think it reflects the essential part (15)of what was being discussed at the meeting.

• Q.: Are there parts of the meeting that are not on that video recording?

• A.: Yes, there are certain parts. For example, a part when General Mladic addressed me in a threatening (20)way, speaking about the genocide committed against the Serbian people. He also referred to the fate of the Bosniaks in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and he blamed high-ranking Bosniak politicians for that. He said, General Mladic, "You see, they're unable to help you (25)now, neither Ganic, nor his people."

• Page 971 • {94/105}

(1) • Q.: Could you explain to the Judges who Ganic was? Who was Mladic referring to?

• A.: Professor Dr. Ejub Ganic was a member of the Presidency of Bosnia and Herzegovina as of 1992 until (5)1995. It was a collective body, leadership that was in charge of the community as was Bosnia and Herzegovina at that time.

• Q.: Do you recall anything else that General Mladic said at that meeting which is not on (10)that video recording?

• A.: Yes. At several points, General Mladic mentioned the fact that the VRS had completely defeated the army of Bosnia and Herzegovina. He was referring to the areas around Tuzla or Sarajevo. I'm not sure. (15)He wasn't very explicit.

MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, we've taken a number of stills off the video which I'd like to show the witness because that's the easiest way of having him identify various individuals, rather than go back (20)through the video which will be a very lengthy process. So we if we would make available, please, Prosecutor's Exhibits 41 to 46 and also 48, please, to the witness.

• A.: May I add something, please?

(25) MR. CAYLEY:

• Page 972 • {95/105}

(1) • Q.: Of course you can, Mr. Mandzic.

• A.: According to my recollection from that first meeting, most of the people present were high-ranking officers of the VRS, and I did not notice (5)representatives of the civilian government.

• Q.: You're now referring to the meeting on the 11th of July?

• A.: Yes, I am. Yes, the first meeting.

MR. CAYLEY: If the Exhibit 41 could be (10)placed on the ELMO, please. We'll do this very quickly.

• Q.: This is Exhibit 41. Can you identify this individual, please, Mr. Mandzic?

• A.: Yes. This is the commander of the Dutch (15)Battalion.

• Q.: What was his name?

• A.: Karremans. I don't know whether my pronunciation is correct, and I don't know whether this is his last name or first name.

(20) • Q.: That is just fine, Mr. Mandzic. Exhibit 42. Who is this individual, Mr. Mandzic?

• A.: The individual here is Petar, the interpreter. Today he's working as an interpreter for the UN in Bosnia and Herzegovina, in the area of (25)Zvornik, and you can often see him in Bratunac and

• Page 973 • {96/105}

(1)Srebrenica. He's working for the IPTF mission there.

MR. CAYLEY: The witness can be shown Exhibit 43.

• Q.: Do you recognise this gentleman?

(5) • A.: Yes, I do. This is an officer of the VRS. As far as I can remember, he was the one who mentioned the towns of Vlasenica, Rogatica, and Han Pijesak, and this is how I concluded that he must have been from that area or that the area in question was his zone of (10)responsibility.

• Q.: Do you recall where he was sitting during this meeting?

• A.: He was sitting next to General Mladic.

MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown (15)the next exhibit.

• Q.: This is Exhibit 44. Can you identify that individual in that photograph?

• A.: General of the VRS, the Commander of the VRS, General Mladic, Ratko Mladic, whom in those days, from (20)the 11th until the 21st of July, I saw four times.

• Q.: If the witness could now be shown Exhibit 45. Do you recognise this individual?

• A.: Yes, I do. General Krstic, who is sitting here on my left. On the 11th of July, General Krstic (25)was introduced by his commander, General Ratko Mladic.

• Page 974 • {97/105}

(1)He also introduced other officers from his command.

• Q.: Can you please identify. You said that General Krstic is sitting here on my left. Could you point across to the person that you recognise as (5)General Krstic in this courtroom.

• A.: Yes. He's sitting on my left. He's wearing a blue shirt and a tie [indicates]

MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show, Mr. President that the witness has identified the (10)accused, General Krstic.

• Q.: And where was General Krstic sitting at this meeting on the 11th of July?

• A.: Next to General Mladic. As far as I can remember, he was sitting on his right-hand side. There (15)was another meeting where he also sat next to General Mladic.

• Q.: Now, when you say, Mr. Mandzic, that he was sitting on General Mladic's right-hand side, you are saying that as if you were General Mladic, from General (20)Mladic's perspective?

• A.: If I understand you correctly, and according to my recollection, at the table where we were sitting in the Hotel Fontana in Bratunac, General Krstic was sitting on General Mladic's right-hand side.

(25) • Q.: Thank you.

• Page 975 • {98/105}

(1) • A.: Am I any closer in my description now?

• Q.: That's fine, and I think the video was very clear.

MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could now be (5)shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 46.

• Q.: Now, Mr. Mandzic, what is this object which I think is in fact in front of you on the video?

• A.: This is a board carrying the inscription, first of all, the Socialist Republic of Bosnia and (10)Herzegovina; underneath, Municipal Assembly of Srebrenica; and at the bottom, in the last line, Srebrenica. As I have said, this was on the municipal building, on the town hall, and it marked the centre of the municipal administration. And General Mladic (15)showed me this inscription and he asked me whether I could recognise it, and I said, "Yes, I do recognise it."

• Q.: This broken sign that was placed before you, at the time what significance did you feel that it had (20)that it was placed in front of you?

• A.: It was a clear message that the enclave had been taken, that is, that the protected area had been taken; a clear message that the civilian population which had lived there could no longer stay there; a (25)clear message that in the days to come, the operations

• Page 976 • {99/105}

(1)of the VRS would target other enclaves; that is, first of all, most of the population in those enclaves, such as Gorazde, Bihac, and Sarajevo. And it was also a clear message that that could well be the end of (5)Bosnia-Herzegovina and the order it represented. And that after that, the army of the Republika Srpska would make it possible to create a mono-ethnic state product without the participation of the other two constituent ethnicities, Croats and Bosniaks.

(10) • Q.: Thank you, Mr. Mandzic. On the video, on the soundtrack of the video, near the beginning, there were some screams that were heard. Can you tell the Judges what those screams were and how you interpreted that at the time of this meeting?

(15) • A.: Yes. One could hear a pig screaming, or rather that night, or at that moment, I thought that perhaps some Serb soldiers were celebrating the taking over of the protected area and the expulsion of Bosniaks. And to be quite honest, that was the first (20)thing that I thought of. I did not attribute any particular significance to the slaughter of that pig or the festivity. But after all these years, I still remember those screams. It was a message that the same procedure would be applied, the same method, to also (25)bleed the Bosniaks, the Muslim Bosniaks.

• Page 977 • {100/105}

(1) • Q.: Very briefly, Mr. Mandzic, can you tell the Judges the atmosphere at that meeting, how you felt in front of General Krstic, General Mladic, these VRS officers.

(5) • A.: Very afraid, very ashamed, defenceless, especially when I noticed that the commander of the Dutch battalion could not properly voice, articulate the needs of the expelled population, civilian population. And also when General Mladic interrupted (10)me when I requested -- when I asked General Mladic and the commander of the Dutch battalion whether all the needs of the civilian population and the status of the enclave had been reported to the civilian and military structures of the International Community. And when (15)General Mladic cut me short and would not allow me to continue speaking about that need, his tone was threatening, he focused his eyes at me, he stared at me. I think he wanted to frighten me. And he frequently used the word that the fate of my people, (20)the people that I originated from, was in my hands.

• Q.: Briefly, Mr. Mandzic, I just want to address with you some of the language that was used by General Mladic at the meeting, and this is on page 8 of the English transcript, line 3, when Mladic states: (25)"I need to have a clear position of the

• Page 978 • {101/105}

(1)representatives of your people on whether you want to survive, stay, or disappear, and I am prepared to receive a delegation tomorrow of responsible people from the Muslim side here, at 1000 hours, with whom I (5)can discuss the salvation of your people from the enclave, the former enclave of Srebrenica." How did you interpret this when you heard this?

• A.: Major anguish, scared, really scared. I (10)really was very concerned what would happen to those several dozen thousand of refugees, because General Mladic repeatedly said "vanish or survive." And he also used the word "the former enclave." And I responded that same moment, because indeed the army of (15)the Republika Srpska, or rather the command of the VRS, had decided to deport the Bosniak population by hook or by crook. And that word, "to survive or to vanish," it really frightened me, because he seemed to be announcing already some steps, some measures which had (20)little to do with civilisation or with humanity.

• Q.: Do you recall him saying to you, "Do you understand me, Nesib? The future of your people is in your hands"?

• A.: Yes, yes, yes. Yes, I remember that. I do (25)indeed. I do not know what General Mladic wanted from

• Page 979 • {102/105}

(1)me. He wanted to demonstrate the force of his own, of the power of his army on a civilian, saying that I would be representing 30.000 other people. But yes, indeed, during that meeting and during that night, from (5)what I heard from General Mladic, I was very pessimistic as to the positive, as to the favourable outcome for those 30.000 expelled.

• Q.: And I think he finally said to you, when you advised him that you were an accidental representative, (10)he stated, "That is your problem. Bring people who can secure the surrender of weapons and save your people from destruction." And that, I think, was the end of the meeting.

• A.: Yes. General Mladic was well aware that (15)there were between 25 and 30.000 of those expellees in Potocari and that they were, by and large, women, small children, elderly, sick people, and that there were no armed groups amongst them. He also knew that his units were a few steps away from that expelled population, (20)about a hundred or perhaps 200 meters, and that during the night they would reach that expelled population of -- those units of the VRS would reach that population. He knew that, but insisting by saying, by pointing out to me that the fate of the Bosnian people (25)was in my hands. I believe he wanted to discourage me

• Page 980 • {103/105}

(1)in voicing any other requests in the first place, to treat that expelled population humanely, not to turn it into a ghetto. And that indeed was a ghetto for all those people. (5)I can confirm it now, and I was quite clear then, that it had been a planned operation of the VRS for those several days to force the civilian population to leave their homes, to leave all their belongings behind, and to be forced into a small place, into a (10)small compound, such as Potocari, and that the control over that area should be taken over by the units of the VRS and which would then turn it into a ghetto.

• Q.: At what time did you leave this meeting on the 11th of July?

(15) • A.: I think it was sometime between 11.00 and half past eleven.

• Q.: Where did you go when you left?

• A.: I left the meeting together with the officers of the Dutch Battalion, and I spent that night with (20)them at their headquarters in Potocari.

MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, if you wish, I can move on to the 12th of July or we can finish here, however you wish.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So, (25)Mr. Cayley, there is still yet another exhibit, which

• Page 981 • {104/105}

(1)is 48, which I think was not shown the witness. Would you please do that?

MR. CAYLEY: I'm sorry, Mr. President. You're quite right. If the witness could be shown --

(5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] And after that we could, yes, adjourn for the day. But now I believe we could really benefit from this occasion and show the witness that exhibit.

MR. CAYLEY: If Exhibit 48 would be placed in (10)front of the witness.

• Q.: Mr. Mandzic, do you recognise this individual?

• A.: I do. Yes. This is Major Boering, if I'm pronouncing his name well, the liaison officer of the (15)Dutch Battalion. He came several times to the secondary school where I worked, where I was the principal, and I repeatedly informed Major Boering about the needs of the pupils in that school, that they needed various school aids and appliances because we (20)did not have that and we could not get any school aids because the convoy couldn't enter Srebrenica because it was prevented from doing so by the units of the VRS.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. We shall adjourn and tomorrow we shall resume at half (25)past nine. Until tomorrow then.

• Page 982 • {105/105}

(1) --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.30 p.m. to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 22nd day of March, 2000 at 9.30 a.m.