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(1)Monday, 20 March 2000
[Open session]

--- Upon commencing at 9.35 a.m.
[The accused entered court]

(5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning to the technicians, to our interpreters; good morning to counsel for the Prosecution, counsel for Defence; good morning, General Krstic. (10)We will resume our proceedings today. We will be sitting in the present composition, as it has been announced, Judge Wald and myself. We will be acting pursuant to Rule 15 bis of our Rules of Procedure and Evidence, but maybe only for today. (15)So without much further ado, we will go on with the testimony of Mr. Jean-Rene Ruez. Is that the case, Mr. Harmon? You have the floor.

MR. HARMON: Good morning, Mr. President; (20)good morning, Judge Wald. That is the case. Good morning, counsel.
[The witness entered court]

WITNESS: JEAN-RENE RUEZ [Resumed]

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good (25)morning, Mr. Ruez. Can you hear me? May I remind you

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(1)that you are still under an oath. We're going to continue now with your testimony. You will be answering questions by Mr. Harmon. Thank you.

• EXAMINED by Mr. Harmon: [Cont'd]

(5) • Q.: Good morning, Mr. Ruez. If you would approach the Prosecutor's exhibit, the large map, and again orient us to the location of the Pilica Cultural Centre.

• A.: I don't have a microphone which I used to (10)have in the other courtroom. I'll just use this one.

• Q.: Now, Mr. Ruez, we concluded last week's session with looking at a film of the Pilica Cultural Centre; is that correct?

• A.: That is correct. And the location of that (15)place on this map is precisely where I'm going to indicate it [indicates] The purple triangle at the top of this exhibit, just under the border of Drina Corps, the Drina Corps limit, the north limit of the corps.

(20) • Q.: Mr. Ruez, would you start your presentation with Prosecutor's Exhibit 25/A?

• A.: This exhibit is a photocopy of the map of the area, scale 1:50.000, and pinpoints the precise location of the so-called Dom of Culture of Pilica. (25)One can see on this map that it is approximately

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(1)2 kilometres by a dirt road from the Branjevo Farm to the Pilica Dom of Culture. This is the way that the executioners took that day. The next exhibit, 25/1. It is an aerial (5)photograph of Pilica, and I will show you the Exhibit 25/2, which is exactly the same photograph with markings on it. I would need to enlarge this. So on this photograph, one can first see the national road that goes towards Bijeljina if one takes (10)the north, and Zvornik if one takes the direction of the south. Also, the cafe is pinpointed, the location from which Drazen Erdemovic could witness the events. You can also see on the photograph the cultural hall, which is the main building of that (15)location. There will be also an unidentified vehicle which is visible on this photograph and will be seen on another one. We will comment on this one later on. One can see from that photograph that it is a populated area. (20)The next exhibit, 25/3, will give a better view of the area. It is a helicopter view, photograph dated 1999, and I will circle both the Dom of Culture and the cafe in front of it on the photograph [marks] I will mark "A" the Dom of Culture and "B" the little (25)cafe. One can clearly see on this photograph that they

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(1)are houses, and as one could see on the film dated 1996, these houses were also occupied at the time.

• Q.: So, Mr. Ruez, these executions took place in a populated area; is that correct?

(5) • A.: This is absolutely correct, yes. The next exhibit is 25/4. It is a closer view of the Dom of Culture in relation with the cafe, which I'm going to again circle "A" and "B", "A" being the Dom of Culture and "B" the cafe [marks] (10)Exhibit 25/5 is a view from above of the same Dom of Culture. It happened at random that day that a double bus, the same ones which are used by the Milici bauxite mine company and which provided also transportation for both people deported or being (15)executed, was standing just in front of the Dom, probably in the same position buses were standing at the time of the events, but this photograph is dated 1999. The access to the house of culture, I will mark it with an arrow [marks] This is the access way to (20)the entrance of the Dom of Culture.

• Q.: Mr. Ruez, let me direct your attention to an object or two objects that appear behind the bus and between the bus and the cultural Dom. Do you see the two objects I'm referring to? Two large objects that (25)appear to be in stone. Can you tell the Judges (1)

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(1)whether your investigations show that those objects were present at the time of the execution and, if not, what are they?

• A.: Yes. These objects are a monument related to (5)the school but the monument has changed since. Now it is turning into a religious monument in that location. It is under construction. It is not finished.

• Q.: In 1995, were these two large monuments present?

(10) • A.: They were present but they are getting transformed. There will be another exhibit, 25/7, which will show how these monuments were in 1996, and they are currently under change.

• Q.: Thank you.

(15) • A.: Exhibit 25/6 is the plaque which indicates the location and which is to be in the front facade of the Dom of Culture. It is seen on the film, and it indicates the location, Pilica. The next exhibit, the 25/7, is a view of the (20)front facade of the building on which the two monuments you were referring to can be seen. Exhibit 25/8 is a view on the entrance door, the main entrance door of the Dom of Culture. There is another door also, and I will mark it with an arrow
(25) [marks] And this is the door from which the witness

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(1)could see men running out of the building and being shot in the street. As far as we know, there is not one single survivor from this event. We have never interviewed anyone who survived this location, nor have (5)talked with anyone who knew someone who had survived this event. Without the testimony of Drazen Erdemovic, we would not know about this situation. He's the only one who provided information about what happened there. The next exhibit, 25/9, goes in relation with (10)Exhibit 25/10. These two exhibits form a panorama which shows in what state was the door before we entered the place and filmed the piece of footage which we showed to the Court. I have a problem with my device here. Yes, okay. Sorry. So as one can see on (15)this photograph, there are a certain number of spider nests in between these two iron doors. These spider nests seem to indicate that no one has entered this location for a while. This footage was -- our entrance is dated June 1996, so between July 1995 and June 1996 (20)most probably no one entered this location before we got in, so we probably were the first ones to get in just after the cleaning process was conducted in 1995. Exhibit 25/11 is a view photographed from the openings in the first floor, these holes which are most (25)probably the holes of the projectionist when they were

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(1)passing movies inside this theatre. One can also see on this photograph the other door I was referring to, which I'm going to mark with an arrow [marks] Exhibit 25/12 is a close-up on some of the (5)most significant bloodstains that one could see inside this building. 25/13 shows one of the walls during a process where samples were taken from the wall. And Exhibit 25/14 is a photograph of the wall (10)at the back of the building where the main destructions occurred, above the stage where probably the people were jammed, trying to avoid the bullets and the grenade explosions. The Exhibit 25/15 is a view of the cafe, (15)which is just in front of the House of Culture. The Exhibit 25/16 is a black and white photocopy of a black and white aerial photograph. The quality of the photocopy is fairly poor, but this is a blow-up of the previous aerial photograph where an (20)unidentified vehicle was marked. We have been told that this unidentified vehicle is indeed a truck. I am going to circle this object on the photograph [marks] The photograph is dated 17 July 1995. The event we are talking about was 16 July, so this photograph is one (25)day after all the murders happened. One could conclude

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(1)that this truck is parked here in order to take out the bodies of the victims away from the Dom of Culture. Another element that is visible on the photograph are tyre tracks, which I'm going to mark as (5)well [marks], and these tyre tracks lead to the side door which I marked on a previous exhibit. And I'm going to mark with an arrow the location of the side door. So another vehicle might have got into that area to assist the cleaning process, if not the same one.

(10) • Q.: Mr. Ruez, does that conclude your presentation on the Pilica Cultural Dom?

• A.: Yes, it does.

• Q.: Let's turn our attention next to Prosecutor's Exhibit 26, which is the Rocevici school, and if you (15)would start again by orienting the Judges to that location on the big map.

• A.: The Rocevici school is a school located close to the national road that goes from Zvornik towards Bijeljina. It is located in fact in between Kozluk and (20)Pilica. I'm going to point this detention facility on the main exhibit, where the purple triangle is marked on the main exhibit map. The next exhibit is 26A. It is a photocopy of a map of the area, and the green dot marks the (25)precise location of the school. Seen from the road, it

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(1)is just on top of the hill that goes in a soft slope uphill, and the school is at the top. We have no indication of how many people were taken to that school, nor how long they were -- they stayed inside. (5)The Exhibit 26/1 is a photograph of that school. The frame could be enlarged so that it only shows this main building. There are other buildings behind, but this is the view one can have by zooming on this building seen from the road.

(10) • Q.: Mr. Ruez, let's turn our attention now to Kozluk. Again, please orient the Judges with the large map and then turn your attention, if you would, to Prosecutor's Exhibit 27A, the small map.

• A.: So Kozluk, as marked on this map, is an (15)execution site and an initial mass grave site. It is located just north-east of Kozluk. One has to drive through the town coming from the south and turn right once inside the town to reach a dirt road that then brings us to a spot which is just next to the Drina (20)Valley. And on the map I pinpoint it [marks], is right here. Exhibit 27A is a map of the area. I will pinpoint more precisely on this exhibit the location of the execution sites. The black line that turns right (25)towards the Drina River is a dirt road. And where I'm

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(1)going to mark the cross, or a little circle, is the area where the execution spot was located [marks] We have no survivor from this situation. The information, as we have been told -- sometimes (5)difficulties to reach the area of Zvornik. It has difficulties to reach the headquarters of the Drina Corps located in Vlasenica. But the information we received about the event which happened in Kozluk arrived from this area to the community of refugees in (10)Germany. From the information we received about this location, we could request an imagery check of the area to confirm the event, and that led to the Exhibit 27/1. Following the information we received from the rumour I mentioned, we could gain access to these two (15)photographs. The one on the left is dated 5 July 1995. The photograph on the right shows the ground 17 July 1995. On the photograph which is at the left, one can see an area completely at the left of the picture, (20)which is grey and white. This is the Drina River. The little path, which is going just underneath where the date is written, 5 July 1995, is the little path which I marked on the previous exhibit. As one can see on the photograph on the right (25)hand, there are several areas of disturbed soil, with a

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(1)main area which I'm going to circle as area "A"
[marks] One can see on this photograph, for example, a pit, a very clean pit, which I'm going to mark "B"
[marks] Just a reference so that you can have an idea (5)of how the things looked from above. This pit has not been used. It was probably used only to cover, to take soil and cover then the victims. "B" is the area of the pit, how the pit looks like as seen from above. (10)The next exhibit is 27/2. It's an aerial view of the area. It shows, on the left of the picture, the area I will mark "A", which is the area where the grave is and the execution site. I pinpoint it with an arrow inside the circle "A" [marks] (15)One can see also on this photograph Kozluk town at the top of the picture, and also at the top right of the picture a building which I'm going to circle and which is a factory of bottles, Vitinka Factory, Kozluk [marks] It was also the headquarters (20)of the Drina Wolves, which was a unit, part of the 1st Zvornik Brigade at the time. There is only one way to exit this area, which is to pass in front of this factory and in front of the Drina Wolves' barracks.

• Q.: Would you mark the Drina Wolves' barracks and (25)the bottle factory with a letter "B", please?

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(1) • A.: The circle is now marked "B" [marks] The Exhibit 27/3 is another view from the site, which is the exact location of the execution site and burial site, and I will circle it [marks] The (5)circle is marked "A". Just at the opposite side of the river is a territory of the Federal Republic. The Exhibit 27/4 is a photograph of the site taken from the ground the first day we approached it which was in June 1998. This is a scene from the (10)ground. One can see it is also a remote and hidden area. Photograph 27/5 is a summary of the items which we found the first day we approached the place. The main elements one can see here is broken glass. (15)The area is, in fact, the dump site for broken glass from the factory. All these elements are of interest since they enable you to make the connection between the primary mass grave, which is to be found on this location, which like all the other sites, has been (20)disturbed by the perpetrators before Dayton and the bodies hidden in remote locations, but these locations were found and partially exhumed. These items were also found inside, glass, shell casings. Here you also have body parts, which (25)I'm going to circle on this photograph [marks], which

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(1)were popping out of the soil and that we could excavate a little bit that day. The following exhibit is 27/6. The next exhibit is 27/6. It is a photograph of a wall just (5)next to the bottle factory and it shows the trademark of this factory, Vitinka, Kozluk. The Exhibit 27/7 is this factory with, next to it, the Drina Wolves' barracks, you can see a member of the Drina Wolves, and this photograph is dated (10)1988.

MR. HARMON: We are now going to show a film. It is Prosecutor's Exhibit 27/18. If the lights could be dimmed and we can play that particular film. Mr. Ruez, would you narrate this as you deem (15)appropriate in the course of the showing of this film. I'm sorry, it's 27/8, not 18.
[Videotape played]

• A.: This is an aerial view of the area. This is the Drina Valley. On the left you have -- now in front (20)of the Drina. This is the area of the site, execution site and mass grave. On the opposite side of the river is the Federal Republic. This is the path that then leads towards Kozluk. Zooming towards Kozluk, here you have the buildings which I had marked "B" on an (25)exhibit. This is a view of the environment that shows

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(1)that it is a deserted area, this kind of -- what one could think of when looking only at the map. This is the area seen from the ground just next to the river. This is the ground, how it was when (5)we arrived the first day on this site. Here at the bottom you can see broken glass, here a piece of human remains. There are several piles of broken glass in this environment. This is at the edge of a slope, and here is a (10)foot, a shoe with still the foot inside. Another shoe. A pile of broken glass. Shell casings were to be found just at the edge of the grave, on the path. Additional shell casings were collected during the exhumation. Shell (15)casings were mixed with the soil and the glass. A vertebra. Another shoe. Trying to remove these shoes, we discovered that, in fact, there were bodies underneath, and that this was a very shallow grave and that the disturbance had obviously been very (20)badly done since body parts were just underneath the surface. This is the area in the vicinity of the execution site and burial site. There were several piles of trash. (25)This area was obviously a former Muslim

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(1)cemetery. We found one gravestone just in the vicinity. These are stacks of labels from the bottle factory. We found exactly these same type of labels in (5)a secondary site. This is the exit towards Kozluk, the headquarters of the Drina Wolves, with the bottle factory just next to it. The distance between the two sides is approximately 1 kilometre. (10)This is the patch of a Drina Wolf, a black wolf yelling in a blue circle. This is Kozluk town, and the vehicle just exited the access to the site. This is town centre. According to the rumour, the prisoners had to sing Serb (15)songs. Meanwhile, they were driven on army trucks towards the execution site. Later on, the exhumation took place here. This is another view of the site during the exhumation. This is the entire area of the exhumation (20)site. The exhumation here is over, finishing. The report will be given about this exhumation. Here you have a slope where bodies were found. Mr. Ruez, I'm going to show you two large (25)photographs that I used in my opening statement and ask

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(1)you if you can identify the locations where these photographs were taken. Mr. Ruez, the usher will hold it up against the map, and that is Prosecutor's Exhibit 1I. Do you recognise that photograph and can you tell (5)the Judges where that photograph was taken?

• A.: Yes. This is a photograph taken during the exhumation at the Kozluk site and which shows an area which is in fact the most north of the site, where bodies were found exactly in the position where they (10)were lying at the time of the execution.

• Q.: Mr. Ruez, let me show you Prosecutor's Exhibit 1H and again ask you if you can identify this particular photograph and tell the Judges where this photograph was taken.

(15) • A.: Yes. This photograph is the photograph of one of the 340 bodies which were recovered from the Kozluk exhumation, 340 being only part of the total number of bodies on this site, like on all the others, most of the others, a disturbance took place. Other (20)bodies to be found in the valley we call the Cancari Valley.

• Q.: Keep that photograph there, please, Mr. Usher, and if you would hand Mr. Ruez Prosecutor's Exhibit 27/9. (25)Mr. Ruez, can you identify that particular

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(1)exhibit and tell the Judges what it is, please.

• A.: Yes. This exhibit is a blindfold which was found during the exhumation at Kozluk; very precisely, on the head of the man who is lying on the ground with (5)his hands attached in the back on this photograph.

• Q.: In photograph Prosecutor's Exhibit 1H?

• A.: Yes.

• Q.: Mr. Ruez, my last exhibit is going to be a map which in many respects is identical in terms of the (10)relevant locations to the large map in front of you. Would you identify this exhibit and explain to the Judges what it is and what it represents.

• A.: So this exhibit is indeed the same one than the main map. The difference between the two mainly is (15)that on the last exhibit you have here, you can see the terrain, and the terrain is a very important aspect to properly understand all these events, due to the fact that all these areas have not been selected at random. Most of them are in remote places, away from populated (20)areas, and this will be made very obvious when we will develop the part regarding the disturbance of all these graves. Then the terrain becomes a very important element. All the symbols which are marked on the main (25)exhibit are also marked on this one but with different

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(1)symbols on it. The only confusing element in this map is that on the bottom right of the map you have the border of the enclave, which is marked, with all the observation posts marked in yellow. And this can (5)create a confusion with the secondary sites, which are also marked in yellow, but they are triangles, and you have a concentration of these triangles at the south of the enclave, together also with observation posts. But if not, this map has all the elements we have exposed (10)during these three days. All these elements are marked on this exhibit.

• Q.: And the observation posts, Mr. Ruez, are squares in yellow with a letter in the middle of the square; is that correct?

(15) • A.: Yes, this is correct. These symbols mark UN observation posts.

• Q.: Thank you, Mr. Ruez.

MR. HARMON: Mr. President and Your Honours, I've concluded my direct examination of Mr. Ruez.

(20) THE REGISTRAR: [Int.] Could you please give me the number of this last exhibit, Mr. Harmon.

MR. HARMON: Exhibit 29.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, (25)Mr. Harmon. Very well. We shall now move on to the

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(1)cross-examination by the Defence. But perhaps it would be good if we made a short break now so the Defence could organise themselves and prepare for the cross-examination. (5)Mr. Petrusic, would you agree with that? Would it be convenient for you to make a break before you begin?

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Yes, Mr. President, because we have also to talk to the (10)audio booth. So yes, a few minutes would be very convenient. Thank you.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. We shall then make a 20-minute break, and after that we shall resume or, rather, the Defence will begin its (15)cross-examination.

--- Recess taken at 10.23 a.m.

--- On resuming at 10.46 a.m.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Let us now move on to the cross-examination of the (20)witness, Mr. Jean-Rene Ruez. Mr. Petrusic, you have the floor.

MR. PETRUSIC: Thank you, Mr. President.

• CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Petrusic:

• Q.: Mr. Ruez, the Defence will begin with the (25)10th of July, 1995. During the examination-in-chief,

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(1)you said that the crucial moment is when a decision was taken to set off either towards Potocari or towards the woods, towards the forest. Could you please clarify that. Could we now see the film.

(5) • A.: I did not hear a question. I only heard a fact.

• Q.: Do you know who took that decision, who made the decision?

• A.: Negative. We do not know who took the (10)decision. I could develop a bit on this if you want a more complete answer. As far as we know, decisions were already made earlier than the 10th to get out of the enclave.

• Q.: Mr. Ruez, was the decision made by civilian (15)or military authorities?

• A.: Yes. I am also listening to the translation. This is why I take a little while before answering more completely your question. The decision initially was not taken in a (20)concerted effort. Groups of people made the decision by their own. What happened is mainly the 11th of July, once the people were assembled in Srebrenica town -- and they didn't assemble themselves under any kind of instruction; it was a normal movement that they took (25)that day. The reason was that the people understood

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(1)that day that if nothing happened, the enclave would fall. And that day everyone was expecting the airstrikes. All the population was assembled and waiting for planes to strike in the area. Instead of (5)that, in the morning of the 11th, once the population entered the compound of the United Nations, the Company B, a shell hit the crowd, a mortar shell hit the crowd, and that generated additional panic. After this event, the people were still (10)waiting for the airstrikes, but all of the men took the direction of the woods. And only then, after the failure of the airstrikes, which was observed by the people who were overlooking the situation from uphill -- I correct for the French translation. There was an (15)airstrike. The people were waiting for the airstrike, and the airstrike was inefficient, according to their view. The reason why the final decision was made indeed, for all the men who didn't dare facing the Bosnian Serb army, to flee through the woods.

(20) • Q.: Mr. Ruez, the convoy of the refugees starting from Srebrenica towards Potocari, were they escorted by the members of the Dutch battalion or, rather, the company of the Dutch battalion that was stationed in Srebrenica?

(25) • A.: No. There was no escort provided by UN

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(1)forces to the people at the moment they were leaving towards the woods. At that moment, the UN forces within the enclave were retreating from their blocking positions which were installed at the south of the (5)enclave, and at that moment there was already a free access for the Bosnian Serb forces coming from the south of the enclave. What happened is that the Muslim forces inside the enclave abandoned the responsibility to (10)defend the place to the United Nations. Therefore, they decided to flee through the woods.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] We're still dealing with Exhibit 3. So could the booth please show the film.
(15) [Videotape played]

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.]

• Q.: What we have just seen is when the units of the army of Republika Srpska, General Mladic, General Zivanovic, and General Krstic in the rear are (20)entering Srebrenica. The transcript of this film was not produced, was not submitted to the Chamber, was it?

• A.: I believe it's going to be done very soon, as far as I understood.

(25) • Q.: Mr. Ruez, would you agree with me when I say,

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(1)since you must have, during your investigation, heard Mr. Mladic's speech, that when entering Srebrenica, General Mladic says, "Come on. Hurry. Hurry. Direction Bratunac, Potocari."

(5) • A.: Yes. That is absolutely correct. This is what General Mladic is saying to the troops when they enter Srebrenica town the 11 July.

• Q.: Was General Mladic the Commander or the Chief of Staff of the army of Republika Srpska?

(10) • A.: General Mladic was the Chief of the Bosnian Serb army at that time.

• Q.: But on that particular occasion, as we see in Exhibit 3, he has the highest rank of all the present officers and the highest commanding post, doesn't he?

(15) • A.: Yes. Definitely. At this moment, General Mladic is the higher ranked Bosnian Serb officer present in town.

• Q.: And the words which General Mladic pronounced there, could they be interpreted as an order?

(20) • A.: They could be considered as an encouragement to the troops he's visiting that day, which he was visiting that day. Yes.

• Q.: Mr. Ruez, did General Mladic enter together with the units of the VRS in Srebrenica on the 11th of (25)July?

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(1) • A.: As soon as the town was taken over by elements of the 10th Sabotage Detachment and Drina Wolves, then General Mladic and the officers who were together with him at the forward command post of (5)Pribicevac went down from the forward command post and visited the town.

• Q.: From what part of the enclave did the units arrive?

• A.: The Bosnian Serb forces entered the enclave (10)from the south, which is the most difficult terrain to conduct such an operation. One could have expected armoured forces to punch through coming from the north but, in fact, the enclave was taken from the south.

• Q.: Mr. Ruez, during your investigation, did you (15)find out that General Mladic was commanding the units directly?

• A.: Negative. We do not have such knowledge. We can say that he had a very tough control on everything, what was going on, but we are not in a position here to (20)say that he was the one giving the orders. I said it in the present. Was giving the orders.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Could the technical booth please show the next tape.
[Videotape played]

(25) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.]

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(1) • Q.: Mr. Ruez, are these the police forces which are running -- which are controlling the separation of men from women and children at Potocari?

• A.: Yes. The man that can be see on the film is (5)probably someone from the Special Police, in charge of the deportation of the population. The man which was seen on the left side of the picture is not yet identified. The investigation on him is still ongoing.

(10) • Q.: Thank you.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Could we see now the third fragment, please.
[Videotape played]

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.]

(15) • Q.: There is an error here, but could you comment on this, because it is quite evident that this is one of the Dutch military.

• A.: Yes. The man who was wearing the blue beret is a UN officer. The location is in Potocari, on the (20)parking lot just in front of the so-called Blue Building. It is just north of the separation line, approximately 50 metres north from the separation line.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Could we see (25)now the next fragment, please.

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(1) [Videotape played]

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.]

• Q.: This was taken in Sandici. The part of the uniform on the man we just saw, was it part of the (5)uniform that the members of the Dutch battalion or, rather, the UN forces wore? I'm referring to the T-shirt.

• A.: The solder who is to be seen on the film is a Muslim soldier. He is wearing a T-shirt, a T-shirt (10)with a camouflage pattern on it. I don't have any sound in French in my helmet at this moment. No. We have a very precise description of the camouflage pattern since we can see it on the (15)film. What I cannot tell you, because we didn't study the question, is if the camouflage pattern is from the Dutch army. I don't believe so, just by looking at it like this, but this could be a possibility. One has to know that in the area, what was mainly making the (20)difference between a soldier and a civilian was not really the way he was dressed. It was, in fact, if he had or not a rifle in the hands. It could very well be that the T-shirt that one can see on this film appeared to be a Dutch army (25)camouflage pattern. It could be that someone had given

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(1)it to this man as a souvenir, but, again, I don't know if it is a Dutch one or not. The main event, what one can see on this piece of footage, is that, as all the witnesses will (5)come and tell you, most of the soldiers -- most of the soldiers were getting rid of any element which could identify them as combatants. The reason is that they had the absolute certainty that they would immediately be murdered if they were found out being combatants. (10)Most of those who were captured and were dressed in the style this man was dressed were taken aside for special treatment. The next step on this film, which is not on film, is that indeed, as you can see, the man is forced (15)to take his T-shirt off so that he has no reason to be proud of being from the army. We don't know what happens to him. The only thing we know is that he is on the list of missing persons.

• Q.: Mr. Ruez, could you tell us which is the (20)camouflage paint on the weapons, on tanks, guns, and other weaponry of the army of Republika Srpska, rather, the Drina Corps? What colour are those weapons?

• A.: If I understand probably the question, the question is -- the question is if I know what kind of (25)camouflage is in use by the Bosnian Serb army at the

• Page 801 • {28/104}

(1)time.

• Q.: Yes.

• A.: Okay. So there was no specific camouflage pattern for the Bosnian Serb. The equipment which was (5)used by the JNA at the time, it was the JNA -- the colour was olive-green. Later during the war, you can see a variety of various camouflage patterns appearing on vehicles, in accordance with no harmonised pattern. We could show you photographs of heavy equipment, (10)tanks, and APCs that we photographed in 1996, and one would see that it is, in fact, depending on the artistic skills of the crew. What is translated as an "extract," I was talking about photographs. (15)This was used for the heavy equipment, for what is used by the soldiers. The camouflage pattern is always the same. It's a variety of green and dark green. But the same situation. Some flak jackets were purchased in foreign countries, so you don't have -- (20)and you can have situations where various camouflage patterns can be seen also on soldiers. Flak jackets. Yes.

• Q.: I'm referring to the heavy equipment. Can one distinguish between the police and purely military (25)means of warfare or, rather, the difference between the

• Page 802 • {29/104}

(1)military and the police heavy weaponry when we're talking about camouflage colours?

• A.: We didn't see the heavy equipment belonging to police forces. We didn't see any of this on film. (5)And for the rest of the equipment, we have the records of Zvornik Brigade; we have a listing of the equipment of the Zvornik Brigade and the Bratunac Brigade, a list of equipment of; and the material that we can see from time to time on film belongs to the Drina Corps, not to (10)the police.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Could the technical booth now show the next fragment, please.
[Videotape played]

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.]

(15) • Q.: This military vehicle or, rather, this tank, is blue, a camouflage blue.

• A.: I don't see a blue tank on this photograph. I can see a tank of dark colour, maybe grey or dark olive, with indeed some white or dark grey stripes on (20)the barrel of the gun.

• Q.: Thank you, Mr. Ruez. Exhibit 12/5, please.

• A.: I see the one you are referring to.

• Q.: Nova Kasaba.

(25) • A.: That is correct.

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(1) • Q.: Do you know which units were stationed in Nova Kasaba?

• A.: The question would have to be broken in two. Units were permanently residing in Nova Kasaba. The (5)unit which was permanently fixed there at the time was an element of the 65th Protection Regiment, which is, as you know, a unit which is specially attached to the protection of the Main Staff. What you also have in this area is the Milici (10)Brigade. In a very close vicinity, about 10, 15 kilometres, the headquarters of the Drina Corps in Vlasenica. Less than 10 kilometres north from this location, at the intersection of Konjevici, was the 5th Engineer Regiment. (15)So there were indeed several units constantly located in this environment. In addition to these elements, you also had reinforcement from the Zvornik Brigade at the time of the events. Reinforcements, reeforcements [French] Thank you.

(20) • Q.: Can you identify that unit on the photograph?

• A.: I don't know to what unit these dog handlers belonged to. These dog handlers belonged to, maitres-chiens [French] They were on this soccer field. The first day when we entered Republika Srpska (25)to conduct missions there, you will hear from a Dutch

• Page 804 • {31/104}

(1)soldier -- no, complete mistranslation. We never heard that from the Dutch soldier. You will hear soon from a Dutch soldier. He will talk about dog handlers who were explaining the use they made of their dogs, and (5)that conversation was overheard in Bratunac, but we do not know if these dog handlers are the same ones. The photograph only shows that these people were in the area, but it doesn't say these were the ones who were operating in July 1995.

(10) • Q.: Mr. Ruez, is it true that in July 1995 the 65th Motorised Protection Regiment was under the command of the Main Staff.

• A.: The 65th Protection Regiment is a unit designed to protect the Main Staff. We do not know at (15)this stage if this unit was or not resubordinated to the Drina Corps for the sake of its participation in the operation. So if it did participate, we would make the assumption that it was at that moment put under the authority of the Drina Corps commander.

(20) • Q.: That of course is an assumption.

• A.: Yes. It would only be a supposition.

• Q.: During your testimony, Mr. Ruez, you mentioned a piece of information to the effect that during your investigation you talked to Mr. Miroslav (25)Deronjic. Do you know that on the 11th of July, Mr.

• Page 805 • {32/104}

(1)Miroslav Deronjic was appointed civilian commissioner for the municipality of Srebrenica by Mr. Radovan Karadzic, the president of the Republika Srpska?

• A.: Yes, we know that, and this is mainly the (5)reason why we interviewed Mr. Deronjic.

• Q.: Mr. Ruez, are you familiar with the contents of the decree whereby Mr. Karadzic appointed Mr. Deronjic to the position of civilian commissioner?

• A.: I did not get the full translation. Yes, we (10)do know about the decree nominating Miroslav Deronjic civilian commissioner for Srebrenica.

• Q.: According to that decree, his responsibilities are as of the month of July, that is, the 11th of July of 1995. Pursuant to the said decree, (15)was Mr. Deronjic authorised to organise civilian authority, both civilian and police authority in the territory of the Srebrenica municipality as of the 11th of July?

• A.: I would like to have the question repeated, (20)please.

• Q.: Pursuant to the said decree, and you say you are familiar with the contents of that decree, did Mr. Karadzic authorise Mr. Deronjic to organise the civilian authority in the municipality of Srebrenica, (25)including the police forces in the territory of the

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(1)Srebrenica municipality, which of course encompassed certain rights and obligations?

• A.: The task and the mission which was given to Miroslav Deronjic by his president, Radovan Karadzic.

(5) • Q.: Was the locality of Potocari within the territory of the Srebrenica municipality?

• A.: Potocari indeed belongs to the Srebrenica municipality, the former municipality of Srebrenica, since, as far as I know, once the enclave was retaken, (10)the municipality of Srebrenica vanished and was integrated into the municipality of Skelani. But if not, Potocari indeed belongs to the municipality of Srebrenica.

• Q.: Mr. Ruez, in the vicinity of the town of (15)Potocari -- and when I say "vicinity", I have the distance of between 10 and 20 kilometres in mind -- is it true that there is a number of transport companies that are situated there in that area?

• A.: Yes. Yes, there are several. In fact, (20)mainly two: Vihor Transport based in Bratunac, and also the military bauxite mine company has transportation means available which is not for public transportation but for the transportation of the workers. (25)Yes, but I have to say for the French

• Page 807 • {34/104}

(1)translation that I did not say "Bratunac"; I said "Milici." Bratunac is Vihor; Milici is military bauxite mine transportation. Other companies which had their names written (5)on buses, which is Drina Trans, Central Trans, companies who are covering the nation before the war, and then the buses were used by those who kept them.

• Q.: Therefore it is possible for the buses to reach Potocari from those locations in a relatively (10)short time?

• A.: The buses which are detained by these companies, yes. But for the sake of this operation, more transport means were needed. The army requisitioned materiel. The civilian authorities made (15)an appeal over the radio. Even persons who possessed vehicles who could transport people were requested to provide these vehicles to assist in the process.

• Q.: Mr. Ruez, at the end of your testimony you referred to exhibit number 2. It is a map of the (20)Zvornik Brigade. You said that you will speak about the agreement between the Zvornik Brigade and the 28th Division more later on.

• A.: I'm not sure I know what exhibit we are talking about. Are we talking about the big map?

(25) • Q.: Yes, exactly.

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(1) • A.: Yes. In fact, I said exactly the opposite. What I said at that time is that I would not develop on that part. The reason is that the criminal investigation is -- the criminal investigation is (5)focusing on the chain of massacres which constitute the entire extermination of these prisoners. The investigation did not focus on the military aspects of the battle. I was mentioning this event for the sake of (10)the reason that at the moment these intense combat activities were happening in the vicinity of Zvornik, there was a vacuum of forces to protect Zvornik. The reason was that the forces were down towards Srebrenica, to conduct the Srebrenica offensive. (15)This situation had two consequences. The consequence number one is that there was a requisition of all vallied personnel in order to confront the column in the woods and set ambushes on its way. And to set ambushes. (20)The other consequence is that the Serb forces who were trying to oppose this column suffered quite a significant number of casualties. Once you will overlay the Exhibit number 2, which is the map of the extermination operation, when you will overlay this map (25)with the map which was seized at the headquarters of

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(1)the Zvornik Brigade, you will easily realise that at the same moment, at the same moment people were getting killed in combat in the forest. Forces which could have been used also to fight this column were derouted (5)to conduct exterminations on execution fields. This is the paradox of the situation at that time in that location.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] This concludes my cross-examination, Mr. President.

(10) • Q.: Thank you very much, Mr. Ruez.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Judge Wald, you have the floor. Oh. Excuse me. I apologise. I'm sorry, Mr. Harmon. Of course you have the right to redirect examination. I'm sorry.

(15) MR. HARMON: I have no redirect examination, Mr. President. Thank you.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] In any case, it is very important to have that on the record. Thank you very much. (20)Judge Wald.

• QUESTIONED by the Court:

JUDGE WALD: Mr. Ruez, I wonder if you would be able to summarise, on the basis of what you've already testified and on the exhibits that we've (25)already seen, the points on the journey, on the map

• Page 810 • {37/104}

(1)next to you, where there was visible presence of either elements of the Drina Corps or other elements of the VRS, either people or equipment, after Potocari, after both the column left Srebrenica that went toward Tuzla (5)and the convoys left Potocari?

• A.: Yes, I could do that.

JUDGE WALD: Just very briefly the spots, by pointing to the spots.

• A.: In fact, all the spots, in absolutely all the (10)spots, but details about that would come from the witnesses who would say who was guarding them --

JUDGE WALD: I understand.

• A.: -- and what was in their environment, but let's take it from south to north. In Sandici, (15)military forces were seen, and as you can see on the film, heavy equipment as well, a tank and an APC. In the area of Nova Kasaba also, witnesses talk about presence of forces. When going up to the main execution sites, the personnel guarding and (20)executing the prisoners are elements from the corps.

JUDGE WALD: Which location was that? Which location did you just mention?

• A.: The Grbavci School, and attached to the execution sites of Orahovac. A lot of the elements (25)which are connecting these crime scenes to the

• Page 811 • {38/104}

(1)perpetrators will come from the military analysis conducted from the documents that we seized at the headquarters of the Zvornik Brigade and the Bratunac Brigade in January 1998. This collection of documents (5)is the foundation of all the knowledge, the detailed knowledge that we have about the participants in these operations. We have the same situation also at the Dam. Same thing for the school of Pilica, where elements of (10)the Drina Corps have these people under their control. Then for the execution at the Branjevo Farm, we know from Drazen Erdemovic that the main participants were initially the 10th Sabotage Detachment, very quickly joined by people who arrived (15)late from Bratunac. We know that these same people are the ones who committed the executions at the Dom of Culture. Finally, we have the situation of Kozluk, where more details will come and where we indeed know (20)that people were taken in army trucks near this Drina Wolf barracks. So, in fact, on all the crime scenes, we have people who witnessed the presence of the VRS in a large sense for this moment.

(25) JUDGE WALD: Thank you. My second question

• Page 812 • {39/104}

(1)is: Do you have any estimates, reliable estimates, of the number of men who left Srebrenica in the column that moved toward Tuzla? Just a rough estimate.

• A.: Indeed it is a rough estimate. The number we (5)are always using is the assessment of 15.000 men.

JUDGE WALD: How many of those do we know survived, got through to the Bosnian side?

• A.: We could have a precise number on this. We know that approximately 6.000 men reached Tuzla area (10)and were then integrated, for most of them, into the 2nd Corps of the BiH army. The figure should be quite precise. It should not be difficult to have confirmation about that number from the Bosniak authorities and from the BiH army.

(15) JUDGE WALD: The second and last part of my question is: Do we also have any estimates of the number of men who stayed in Potocari and got on the buses or were taken separately in the convoys?

• A.: We have an estimate on this. There was a (20)figure given in the situation reports which were drafted at the time. The person who drafted that part of the report was Major Kingori. His estimate of the number of men present at the time is 3.000 men in Potocari. That figure would have to be double-checked (25)for the reason that the counting system was far from

• Page 813 • {40/104}

(1)being accurate. So I would take that figure only as a very rough estimate. When we see films taken during these days, the 11 -- mainly the 12th and the 13th, it is obviously (5)that there is still a large number of men in Potocari, but to have a precise figure is something that I would not risk myself to try to give you now.

JUDGE WALD: The final part of my question is: Do we have any reliable estimate of how many of (10)those men who were in Potocari and either went on the convoys separately or some with the women and children, how many of those do we know survived?

• A.: We only know about one man who survived after having gotten on board the bus. The reason why he (15)survived is that he knew the driver, and arrived at the final checkpoint and the driver knew a commanding officer there and passed a request for this man to go through and this was immediately done. We have no other example like this. (20)When we look at the video footage of the men arriving in Kladanj the first day of the deportation, some men can be seen. So it seems that men were able to get on board of buses. These men are old men. We also know from all the witnesses from the (25)very beginning of the deportation process, men could

• Page 814 • {41/104}

(1)get on board of buses but very, very quickly, mainly after the arrival of Mladic in Potocari, that possibility stopped and the men were systematically separated.

(5) JUDGE WALD: But do we know whether or not any men got over into Kladanj along with the women and children?

• A.: As far as we know, only very old men managed to pass through these checkpoints. All the (10)military-aged men and that fork of age is very wide. It goes from approximately 15, 16 to 60 if not above. All these men were systematically separated.

JUDGE WALD: Thank you, Mr. Ruez.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Ruez, (15)in order to sum up a little bit your testimony, I would like to ask two questions. As far as I have understood, the initial objective of the army of Bosnian Serbs was not to take over Srebrenica but to reduce the area in terms of (20)borders.

• A.: There has never been any limit fixed to the enclaves. What marks the border of the enclave is the position of the observation posts. Therefore, the intention of the Bosnian Serb army, at one point, was (25)to shrink the enclave and to shrink it at the size of

• Page 815 • {42/104}

(1)the town. The end result of this would have been that no more combat activities could have been launched by little groups from the inside of the enclave by using this large surface of wooded hills and create what one (5)could call, in brackets, a large open-air concentration camp where people were living in awful conditions, all this in the aim to force the United Nations to take the decision to evacuate all these people. Reputting this in context, one has to recall (10)that any evacuation of victims from an area at that time, an evacuation conducted by the UN, was immediately interpreted as assistance to ethnic cleansing. So that was putting everyone in an infernal situation.

(15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] My first question, in connection to that, is the following: The objective of the army was to shrink the enclave and not take over the enclave of Srebrenica, which means that the preparations were conducted with that objective in (20)mind. At one point in time, there was a change in objective. Are you in the position to tell us what kind of changes were made in terms of preparations of the operation?

(25) • A.: The main change, as we view it, is that

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(1)switching from a situation only to shrink the enclave at the size of the town and capturing it militarily didn't make much of a difference on a military point of view. The only tricky part of that was, in fact, the (5)reaction of UNPROFOR. But once it became clear that there would be no strong reaction of the United Nations regarding that element, the main new factor the Bosnian Serb army had to take in consideration, at that moment, was the fate of the prisoners. The fact is that at (10)that moment, the Bosnian Serb army could not anticipate capturing such a large number of men without fighting. So this is indeed the moment all the planning for the part of the operation, which is not recorded by the Bosnian Serb archives and which is the exhibit -- (15)the map of Exhibit number 2, this is the moment indeed where these questions started to get raised and where decisions were starting to be made by those who made them.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] We can, (20)therefore, conclude that the organisation of the evacuation itself, bearing in mind the scale of the evacuation, that is, the number of persons involved, was not something that had been previously foreseen. The procedure that we can see from that map, among (25)other things, is it something that can tell

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(1)you -- were there any elements that show you, that point to the fact that there had been some kind of organisation, even at the last minute or not?

• A.: These elements -- unfortunately, I think it's (5)a bit too early for me, at this stage, to disclose these elements, but we have clues, very precise clues which show us that 13 July 1995, all decisions were already made in terms of what to do with these men, and that specialised personnel was visiting the area, the (10)Zvornik area, in order to find the locations where to keep all these prisoners without any anticipation of needs like food and probably also looking for a remote and hidden execution sites. The earliest we can date these activities are (15)13 July 1995. This will come from the analysis of Richard Butler, our military analyst, who will develop it for you at a later stage.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, Your Honour.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] One other (20)question, Mr. Ruez. You mentioned several times that an execution squad would be waiting for the prisoners. I don't know if I'm correct in thinking that there had already been, on the spot, an execution squad which was supposed to execute the prisoners. (25)Again, in order to sum up a little bit your

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(1)testimony, could you tell us: What is the explanation of that particular fact in view of the overall organisation of the evacuation of the Srebrenica enclave? Have you understand my question? Thank you.

(5) • A.: The plan related to the enclave, this appears nowhere. This appears as an element of organisation for this extermination process phase. For every one of these detention sites and killing sites, the main elements on which to focus is indeed who was (10)transporting the people to the site, who was guarding them once they were on this site, and then who was executing them on the execution site. But the fact is that there was a clear organisation and distribution of the roles. It's not the same people who are mixing the (15)roles. Some are indeed guarding during the travels, others are guarding in the detention facilities like the schools. During this process, indeed execution squads are still -- are already waiting for their victims on a predetermined execution site. (20)This is the case for the Grbavci school and the attached site of Orahovac. This is also the case at the Petkovci school and the Petkovci Dam. It is also the case at the Pilica school and the Branjevo Farm. It is most probably also the case at Kozluk, but (25)in Kozluk, as I told you, we don't have the information

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(1)coming neither from the perpetrator, nor the victim, so we don't know exactly what was the scenario on this spot. The only exception to this is the Dom of (5)Culture of Pilica, where the same execution squads went from the Branjevo Farm toward the House of Culture, where a number of 500 people were supposed to try to break out. The reason why? They had to be killed in that location.

(10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] My last question, Mr. Ruez: You happened to mention the fact about the soldiers, members of the VRS, who wore UN uniforms which they had taken from Dutch soldiers. This kind of conduct, could it, from your point of (15)view, be considered as an expression of some problems faced by the Bosnian Serb army to conduct this whole procedure and to facilitate its task by using the uniforms and other things which perhaps might persuade the prisoners to behave in a different manner? What do (20)you think about this, Mr. Ruez?

• A.: The main reason for the use of the equipment was, without any doubt on our side, to lure the people and make them -- bring them to surrender, in order not having to fight them, capture them easily. (25)The way the situation developed might be even

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(1)more interesting. The reason is that the Dutch command got the agreement that UN soldiers would escort buses and trucks of prisoners towards Kladanj to make sure they would reach their destination. That means all (5)along the way, they could witness already events. There was obviously a blank cheque to kill in this area, and the Dutch soldiers could witness all these events when they were driving alongside the road. As pinpointed on the map, they are sites (10)which we call small execution sites but which are quite massive. Some are above 100 people. All these bodies were to be seen along the road. We didn't say a word about the number of bodies that the people could observe from the windows of the buses by moving out of (15)this area, and it's a clear fact that none of the persons who arrived on the asphalt road had a reason to turn a weapon against anyone. If so, it would be instant death. So maybe some did in order to commit suicide and die honourably, if one can say so. Most of (20)the others didn't but most didn't and were probably killed on the spot. So that generated a lot of witnesses in the area. So there was an absolute need anyhow for the VRS to get rid of these witnesses, these UN witnesses. (25)Steal their equipment was a consequence of this process

• Page 821 • {48/104}

(1)of removing them from the area, putting them in detention sites like the special -- I mean, the compound of the 65th Protection Regiment in Nova Kasaba, where indeed they have interesting things that (5)they saw and that they heard. Once all this was done, the material was then derouted in order to make the people believe that all this operation was still monitored by the United Nations. This led indeed to the use of this equipment, (10)very obviously in front of commanders passing by. We didn't show that piece of footage, but as soon as the 11th of July, UN equipment was already taken from observation posts, and there is a piece of footage where General Mladic and General Krstic are (15)standing nearby a tank driven by a Bosnian Serb soldier who is standing, with a blue beret slipped in his belt. We don't know what use this one made of this equipment, but we know what the others did with it. Obviously everyone was aware, informed, and no one (20)opposed that.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Mr. Ruez. We're still in the early days of the case and that is why we have so many questions, but I should like to thank you for coming here to testify. (25)We shall move on to another witness, but I

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(1)believe this would be a good time to make a break. The next witness will be a protected witness, Mr. Harmon, isn't it?

MR. HARMON: Yes. That's correct. I have (5)some exhibits I'd like to present before we go into the protected witness mode. We can do that after the recess. I'd also like to move into evidence about various exhibits that were introduced and identified by Mr. Ruez, and I can wait until after the break to do (10)that as well.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Excuse me. And you want to do that with Mr. Ruez?

MR. HARMON: No. He can --

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] No. I (15)see. Well, in that case, Mr. Ruez is free to go, and you will have the opportunity to introduce those documents and make a break. How long will you need, Mr. Harmon?

MR. HARMON: Ten minutes.

(20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. Excuse me. I will, therefore, go back on what I said. I think it is better to make a break and then we shall resume. Mr. Ruez, thank you very much for your (25)testimony before the Tribunal. Lots of success in the

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(1)future. Now, we have shall a 20-minute break and then we shall resume.
[The witness withdrew]

(5) --- Recess taken at 11.55 a.m.

--- On resuming at 12.23 p.m.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. We are now resuming the hearing. Mr. Harmon, you have the floor.

(10) MR. HARMON: Mr. President and Your Honours, I would like to first introduce a number of exhibits that have been referred to either in my opening statement or through the testimony of Mr. Ruez. I'd like to move into evidence Prosecutor's (15)Exhibit 1A and 1B. Those are two small maps showing, (1) the location of the Srebrenica municipality; and (2) showing the location of three enclaves. I would like to introduce 1E bis -- I'm sorry. 1E, which is this large map that Ruez referred (20)to frequently; 1E bis, which is a separate legend to that map; 1I -- I'm sorry -- yes, 1I, which is a large photograph showing skeletons in a trench; 1H which is another photograph I referred to in my opening statement; Prosecutor's Exhibit number 2, which is the (25)large map, Krivaja 95, the operations map; Prosecutor's

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(1)Exhibit 3, which is a film used by Mr. Ruez; Prosecutor's Exhibits 4 through 27, which are the two volumes of photographs, as well as associated videos that were played during Mr. Ruez's presentation; (5)Prosecutor's Exhibit 16/6, which is a wire ligature; 27/9, which is a blindfold; and Prosecutor's Exhibit 29, which is a large map introduced at the end of Mr. Ruez's testimony, showing the contours of the land and relevant sites. So we would move those into (10)evidence. In addition, Mr. President, I would now like to distribute to Your Honours and to counsel three separate exhibits: Prosecutor's Exhibit 30 and 30A, which will be the report of the Secretary-General (15)pursuant to General Assembly Resolution 53/35. It's entitled "The Fall of Srebrenica." 30 is the English version of this report and 30A is the French version of the report. In addition, Mr. President and Judge Wald, there are annexes to that report which are found in (20)Prosecutor's Exhibit 31. And the last -- which Mr. Dubuisson will now distribute, and then I'll turn to my last exhibit. The last exhibit is Prosecutor's Exhibit 33A through 38B, and I will identify each of those separate (25)exhibits. These exhibits include reports in French and

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(1)English. They are the reports on the situation of human rights in the territory of the former Yugoslavia that were submitted by Mr. Mazowiecki, who was the Special Rapporteur of the Commission of Human Rights, (5)and these reports are a series of reports that were submitted by Mr. Mazowiecki. They start in Prosecutor's Exhibit 33A with a report dated the 28th of August, 1992. There's a series of six reports. The last report is a report that was submitted by (10)Mr. Mazowiecki on the 22nd of August, 1995. Again, this was the final periodic report on the situation of human rights in the territory of the former Yugoslavia submitted by Mr. Mazowiecki, Special Rapporteur of the Commission of Human Rights. (15)So we would move these various reports into evidence as well. And that completes, with the submission of these exhibits, it completes the overview of events that took place in Srebrenica. And now, Mr. President, without further ado (20)I'll yield the floor to my colleague, Mr. McCloskey, who will lead the next witness. And we will proceed -- we'd make a request that we proceed in closed session.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Before that, perhaps, Mr. Harmon, I should like to ask the (25)Defence if they have any objections to any one of these

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(1)exhibits.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, the Defence objects when it comes to Exhibit 14, that is, Nova Kasaba; Exhibit 17, Konjevic Polje; and (5)Exhibit 18, the Jadar River. Let me explain. In Mr. Ruez's testimony, the Prosecutor adduced those exhibits and Mr. Ruez referred to them as places where executions took place. However, if we look at the indictment, and I believe we (10)have to really go by the indictment, these localities, these are not mentioned in counts 24 to 26 of the indictment, and the Defence therefore believes that these exhibits may not be -- may not make part of evidence. They may not be used in the hearing in (15)consideration of the case. Thank you.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon.

MR. HARMON: Mr. President, the indictment, paragraph 24, is a list of various locations that is not exclusive. It says in paragraph 24: "The (20)wide-scale and organised killings of Bosnian Muslim men which occurred in several different locations in and around Srebrenica enclave from 11 July 1995 until 18 July 1995 included ..." It didn't say it was limited to these locations, and therefore we believe that the (25)locations that are described in this are relevant. In

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(1)addition, I might add that the Jadar River site is a location that the Defence received the discovery from the Prosecution, has received evidence of a statement from the survivor of that location and has been fully (5)aware that we intend to lead that evidence in the course of this trial. Lastly, Mr. President, in respect of the location at Nova Kasaba, I believe there are aerial images of that location that were shown to the Defence (10)prior to the commencement of this trial pursuant to our obligation under Rule 70B, and the location of Konjevic Polje, likewise, we believe are relevant under the terms of paragraph 24.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, (15)I heard the translation that the sites mentioned under paragraph 24 to 26 are not exclusive. You meant perhaps that this is not the exhaustive list of sites; they are merely some of the places by way of example.

MR. HARMON: That's correct, Mr. President.

(20) JUDGE WALD: Mr. Harmon, just to make sure I understood your explanation, was the Defence in fact alerted to the fact that the exhibits -- or the locations involved in Exhibits 14, 17, and 18 would be the subject of evidence? I think you mentioned one or (25)two, but I wasn't sure whether you mentioned the

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(1)third. In other words, was supporting material, various other things, they knew that these would be the subject of evidence?

MR. HARMON: That's correct. The first item, (5)which is 14, which is Nova Kasaba, includes -- let me just take a look at this for a minute. Let me return to Nova Kasaba in just a minute. 17, paragraph 17, is Konjevic Polje. These items were known to the Defence. Item 18, the Jadar (10)River, was known to the Defence. We provided them with a copy of a survivor's statement from the Jadar River. In respect of the locations of grave sites described in those particular locations, we have provided the Defence with exhumation reports relating to each of (15)those locations where there's a grave site included.

JUDGE WALD: You said you'd go back to Nova Kasaba.

THE INTERPRETER: Microphone for her honour.

MR. HARMON: Just a minute. Let me grab my (20)exhibit binder. Yes, Judge Wald. The Nova Kasaba grave sites were divulged to the Defence. One, there are aerial images that the Defence was shown, and two, Nova Kasaba grave sites are the subject of an exhumation report that was provided to the Defence.

(25) JUDGE WALD: Thank you.

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(1) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So the Defence objects against Exhibits 14, 17, 18, and we heard the explanation of the Prosecution. So now we have to examine it in greater detail, and after the (5)deliberation, the Chamber will pass its decision. At the moment, we cannot really take the decision immediately. We have to go into it and we shall then make our decision, and that will be tomorrow perhaps. So now I think the Prosecution will now continue with (10)the production of evidence, and I believe it was Mr. McCloskey who will take over. Mr. Harmon.

MR. HARMON: Yes. We will proceed in a closed session on the next witness.

(15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. Does the Defence know and does it agree with the protection measures for this witness, Mr. Petrusic?

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Yes. We know about that and we agree with the measures as proposed.

(20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, therefore, we can take all the necessary measures so that we could proceed with this witness. For the public, I need to say we will be hearing evidence with protective measures, and we will (25)now change to a closed session.

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(1) [Closed session] pages 830-877 redacted - closed session.

--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.43 p.m., to be reconvened on Tuesday, the 21st day of March, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.