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(1)Tuesday, 11th April 2000 [Open session]
--- Upon commencing at 9.38 a.m. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning to the technical booth. The interpreters, are you there? THE INTERPRETER: Yes, Your Honour. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good (10)morning to the Prosecution, the Defence, Mr. Krstic, the court reporters, the legal assistants. We are still in the same composition, and we are here to continue the hearing of the Krstic case. According to what I see in front of me, it is (15)Mr. McCloskey. Yes, will you please tell us what we're going to do today. MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, we have a witness that will be testifying, a woman. We're going back to Potocari briefly and she will be testifying in (20)open session. Her name is Hava Hajdarevic.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you
very much. I was waiting for the interpretation.
Mr. Usher, can you have the witness brought
in, please.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Madam, can (5)you hear me? THE WITNESS: [Int.] I do. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, madam. THE WITNESS: [Int.] Good morning to (10)you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you for coming here to the Tribunal. Before testifying, you are going to read the solemn declaration, which the usher will give you. (15) THE WITNESS: [Int.] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
WITNESS: HAVA HAJDAREVIC (20)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] You may be
seated, madam.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Madam, for
the moment you will be answering questions which the
(25)Prosecutor, Mr. McCloskey, who is standing to your
MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. • EXAMINED by Mr. McCloskey: (5) • Q.: First of all, can you tell us your name, and spell your last name, please. • A.: My surname is Hajdarevic; my name, Hava. • Q.: And can you spell your surname? • A.: H-a-j-d-a-r-e-v-i-c. (10) THE INTERPRETER: The first letter is "H". I'm sorry. MR. McCLOSKEY: • Q.: How old are you? • A.: I'm 53. (15) • Q.: Are you Muslim by faith? • A.: I am. • Q.: Where are you from? • A.: From Srebrenica. • Q.: Did you spend most of your life in the (20)Srebrenica area? • A.: I did. • Q.: Were you living there on July 11th, 1995? • A.: I was. • Q.: Where in Srebrenica were you living? (25)
• A.: I was living at the exit from the town,
• Q.: Who were you living with then? • A.: I had two sons, a daughter-in-law, and a two-and-a-half-year-old granddaughter. Then my mother (5)came to stay. My brothers and sisters-in-law, they were living with me. • Q.: Where was your husband at the time? • A.: My husband was captured, and in 1994 he was exchanged and then he was in Tuzla. (10) • Q.: So he wasn't in Srebrenica in July of 1995. • A.: He wasn't in Srebrenica, no. • Q.: What happened on July 11th that caused you to make a decision? • A.: I had to leave the house because the Serb (15)army entered the town from up there. • Q.: Why did the presence of the Serb army make you have to leave? • A.: Because they would have killed me, I wouldn't exist now. (20) • Q.: Where did you decide to go, and who went with you? • A.: I decided to go to UNPROFOR to seek their protection, and from there to go to Tuzla, and my whole family went with me. (25)
• Q.: Can you tell us who was in your family that
• A.: With me were a daughter-in-law and a sister-in-law, my brother's two children, my granddaughter, and my mother. And the other (5)sister-in-law and brother were living in town and they also went to Potocari. • Q.: Were your two sons adult age at that time? • A.: They were. • Q.: What did they do? (10) • A.: They went through the woods. We parted there, with my brothers and sons, and we went to Potocari. • Q.: You have three brothers; is that right? • A.: I now have one and two of them are gone. (15) • Q.: So you haven't seen two of your brothers and your two sons since they left to go through the woods; is that right? • A.: That is right. I never saw them again. • Q.: When you say you went to UNPROFOR, was that (20)in Potocari? • A.: Yes. Yes, in Potocari. • Q.: Where did you stay when you got to Potocari?
• A.: It was the afternoon, on the 11th. We wanted
to go to UNPROFOR. The UNPROFOR wouldn't let us go any
(25)further, there was a ribbon across the road, so we
(5) • Q.: The next day, did Serb soldiers arrive some day to Potocari, the next day, on the 12th? • A.: Yes, they did. • Q.: About what time did you first notice Serb soldiers arriving? (10) • A.: I really can't remember exactly now. I think it was about noon. • Q.: Can you tell us about what you saw? • A.: I saw some of them coming from the woods, towards Pecista. They were coming downhill; they were (15)burning things and shooting. And another group were coming from Bratunac, together with Mladic. • Q.: Could you tell what things were burning? • A.: Mostly the old houses and haystacks, so as to intimidate us. And we were watching all that because (20)there was a hillside and we were down in the valley and we could see what was happening on the slopes. • Q.: Did you see General Mladic arrive? • A.: I did. I saw him. • Q.: What did you see happen after he arrived? (25)
• A.: UNPROFOR had those ribbons across the road,
(5) • Q.: What happened? • A.: What happened? I went back to my mother and daughter-in-law and sister-in-law. The children started crying. There was panic. We were, indeed, afraid. (10) • Q.: Did you see anything else that day? • A.: I saw -- this was later, I had spent the night by the zinc plant. Then I took my family and we entered the factory to spend the night inside. Since the soldiers started walking around among the people, (15)then they started taking out our young men and taking them away. • Q.: What were these soldiers dressed like? • A.: They were dressed in military camouflage uniforms. (20) • Q.: These were Serb soldiers? • A.: I suppose so. How do I know? They had black gloves with their fingers showing. • Q.: They weren't Dutch soldiers.
• A.: No. No, not then, no. The first night we
(25)were safe. The Dutch soldiers were protecting us. We
• Q.: That was the night of the 11th that you were safe; is that right? • A.: Yes. Yes. (5) • Q.: Now, when the soldiers started taking men away, what did you do with your family? • A.: When I saw four soldiers bringing ten young men and taking them away, then I became scared and I realised what would happen. And then I took my family (10)and we went along the road and spent the night inside an old bus, to be as close as possible to UNPROFOR. • Q.: Did you ever see any Serbs that you were able to recognise from before the war? • A.: I only saw my neighbour, Slavoljub. Towards (15)nightfall, he was going towards the garages. He had a black uniform on him. • Q.: What was his last name? • A.: Grujicic. • Q.: About how old was he? (20) • A.: Slavoljub, he's an older man. Maybe 60 or something. I don't know. • Q.: All right. Did he have any sons that you knew from before the war?
• A.: He had five sons. We were all living in one
(25)neighbourhood. We were friends.
• A.: One was Cvijetin, Dzole, Mile, Vitomir, and the youngest one I can't remember. He was the youngest. (5) • Q.: When you saw Slavoljub, was he armed? • A.: I didn't really see what he had on him. I hid from him so he wouldn't see me, because they did approach us and ask us about our men. They would ask the women about the men and he would have recognised (10)me. • Q.: Did you see the group that Slavoljub was with, the group of soldiers? • A.: Yes, they were five or six of them all in black clothing. (15) • Q.: And before you hid from them, could you see what they were doing? • A.: No, no. • Q.: About what time was this that you saw these soldiers in black including Slavoljub Grujicic? (20) • A.: It was at nightfall, it was already dark. He was moving in the direction of the garages down there. • Q.: And about where did you see him, about where was he when you saw him in relation to the various factories and the main road? (25)
• A.: There's a small bridge and there used to be a
• Q.: So was he near the -- near the various factories around the base? (5) • A.: He was below the road, the other side of the road below the factories. • Q.: And where did you spend the night that night? • A.: I spent the night there, close to this bus. • Q.: You said in around or in one of the old (10)derelict buses that was in and around the bus factory? • A.: It was a bus. There was a path leading to the garages. The buses of Strela Company used to be parked there. And then to the left, there was an old bus. And there was an outpatient's clinic at Potocari (15)and next to it was this old bus and we spent the night next to this bus. I think there are pictures of those buses. • Q.: And can you describe what you heard or saw that night, this would be the night of the 12th? (20) • A.: I heard the worst. I heard people screaming, crying and Ohran was calling out the name of his cousin, "Ahmed, have they killed you, have they slaughtered you?" They were wailing. It was a terrible night. (25)
• Q.: And were there screams going on throughout
• A.: Yes. • Q.: Did you see anything that was happening around you that night? (5) • A.: That is all I heard. And then you could see the people sleeping on the ground next to the garages and then UNPROFOR, it looked like UNPROFOR walking amongst those people. What they were doing, I didn't see. (10) • Q.: The next morning, what did you do the next morning with your family on the 13th? • A.: The next morning, I got up. I told my family to hurry up and go towards the personnel carrier. And I saw this Ohran who had been calling his sisters on (15)the previous night, his head was all covered in blood. • Q.: And then what did you do? • A.: Then we went as quickly as we could towards the buses where they were parked. They all were from Serbia, 7th of July, Raketa, Vagevo; these are the (20)names of the bus companies. They had taken away our men. We got on to a bus; I think it belonged to the 7th of July Company. • Q.: Before you got on the bus, did you see a Dutch soldier on top of a vehicle at some point? (25)
• A.: This was when the Serb soldiers entered.
• Q.: Did you actually see him tied down or did you just see him lying on this vehicle in this heat? • A.: I just saw him lying on his back. (10) • Q.: So he might have just been lying in the sun for all you know? • A.: I don't know. • Q.: You can't imagine why a person would lie in the hot sun like that. (15) • A.: That's what I think too. Why would he be lying like that facing the sun in that heat? • Q.: After you got on the bus, where did you go and your family? • A.: We went towards Kladanj. We passed through (20)Bratunac. We passed by Kravica. • Q.: Did you see anything on the way towards Kladanj?
• A.: On a meadow, I saw our men, four rows of
them. I don't know how many. I saw a man dressed in a
(25)white coat, and he was doing something to a man's head
MR. McCLOSKEY: For the record, the witness indicated that her hands were on the top of her head, she saw her soldiers with their hands on top of their heads. (10) • Q.: Do you know what villages you were near when you saw these men in the meadow, and then later on you saw men with their hands on their head? • A.: This was Sandici, Kravica, as far as Kasaba, that is the route we took; Sandici, Kravica. (15) • Q.: Now, going back just briefly to when you saw Slavoljub. In one of your old statements, it also says that you saw his son, Cvijetin. Did you actually see his son Cvijetin? • A.: One of my neighbours, they were all there, (20)but I left early in the morning, about 9.00. And all the others were there, Grujicics and Stevos, and they were all there. And a neighbour of mine asked him to save him but he left and he didn't do anything.
• Q.: So did you see Cvijetin or did one of your
(25)neighbours tell you that she had seen him?
• Q.: Did you actually see Slavoljub or did someone tell you that he was there? • A.: I saw him towards nightfall on the Wednesday, (5)on that Wednesday. • Q.: Were you eventually let off the bus near Tisca where you had to walk a distance to Kladanj? • A.: Yes, we got off there. We had two kilometres to cover to reach our territory. (10) • Q.: And did you make that or did you eventually meet up with your husband? • A.: When I reached Tuzla, my husband had already left for Germany a month or two before that, I think, in January or February. (15) • Q.: But you have since been able to be reunited with your husband; is that right? • A.: I was reunited when he came two months later to Tuzla. • Q.: I'm sorry to ask you this question, but I (20)think the Court and, perhaps, the world would like to know. How is it living without your two sons and without your three brothers in the wake of the tragedy of Srebrenica?
• A.: How? You have children of your own. Only I
(25)know how I feel. I had two sons, now I don't have any,
• Q.: Okay. Thank you, very much. MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I don't have any further questions. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mrs. Hajdarevic, please have some rest. Take your time. If you need a break, we'll have a break. We understand how painful this must be for you. THE WITNESS: [Int.] I thank you (10)too, Your Honour. We could perhaps have a little break if you want. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. So for the purpose of organising our work, Mr. Petrusic or Mr. Visnjic, how long do you think that (15)the cross-examination will take? MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Not more than five minutes, Mr. President. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well, then, we will still have a 15-minute break. I hope (20)that you will be able to get some rest so that you can come back and continue with your testimony. A 15-minute break. --- Break taken at 10.08 a.m. --- On resuming at 10.25 a.m. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.]
THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes. I'm fine now. Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. (5)Now you're going to answer questions that will be put to you by Mr. Visnjic, who is representing General Krstic in this case. Mr. Visnjic, you have the floor. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Thank you, (10)Mr. President. • CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Visnjic: • Q.: Good morning, Mrs. Hajdarevic. • A.: Good morning. • Q.: Mrs. Hajdarevic, I should like to ask you a (15)question regarding your neighbour Slavoljub Grujicic, the one you recognised in Potocari. Could you tell us whether you had had any argument with him before the war? Did you have any problems with him? • A.: No. No, I didn't. (20) • Q.: So you were in good relations before the war. • A.: Yes, we were. • Q.: Thank you very much, Mrs. Hajdarevic.
MR. VISNJIC:
[Int.] Your Honour,
(25)this concludes my cross-examination.
(5) MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Judge Riad. JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. (10) • QUESTIONED by the Court: JUDGE RIAD: Mrs. Hajdarevic, good morning. • A.: Good morning. JUDGE RIAD: I'm sorry to bring these memories back to you. You have lost two sons, you have (15)lost three brothers. Did you get any information after they went away what happened to them or where they were? • A.: I learned about my sons, that they had reached Baljkovica, the crossing point, and that's all (20)I know about them. As regards my brother, he was in Potocari and he was left there. My cousins, my relatives, they were among those who went to the woods, and I haven't heard of them ever since.
JUDGE RIAD: "Ever since" means since July
(25)1995?
JUDGE RIAD: Do you know many people in your family, in your acquaintance, who also passed through the same sad experiences, where their sons and brothers (5)disappeared and they have no news? • A.: Yes, I do. There are so many such cases. JUDGE RIAD: The cases of people returning, were there cases of sons and brothers coming back? • A.: Yes, that happened as well. Azim Begic, he (10)had six sons, and all of them managed to cross over. JUDGE RIAD: Were they in the woods? • A.: Yes, they were. JUDGE RIAD: Did they tell you what happened? • A.: Yes, they told us various stories. There (15)were lots of stories. JUDGE RIAD: Good. You mentioned that the UNPROFOR was walking among you with the Serbs, if I remember, and you were hearing screams at the same time. What were the UNPROFOR soldiers doing exactly? (20)
• A.: No, they were not UNPROFOR soldiers, they
were Serb soldiers. They had taken their clothes and
put them on. They were not members of UNPROFOR.
UNPROFOR soldiers wouldn't do anything to us. They
would have helped us, like they did on the first
(25)night.
• A.: Yes, because they had captured both UNPROFOR members and us, and they did as they pleased with (5)them. JUDGE RIAD: I'll ask you again about Azim's sons; he had six sons. The six sons came out of the woods, were able to come back? • A.: Yes. Yes, all of them, they reached Tuzla. (10) JUDGE RIAD: They said that many other people were able to get away from the woods, or were they exceptional? • A.: Well, they know how it was. People kept coming out for months. (15) JUDGE RIAD: All right. Thank you very much. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Judge Riad. Judge Wald. (20) JUDGE WALD: I have no questions except to thank you for sharing your sad memories with us. I hope they will do the search for truth well. Thank you.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.]
(25)Mrs. Hajdarevic, I have only one question to ask of
• A.: Yes. I was near them. They were taking away our young men, they were taking them to the Zinc Factory. Our mothers were crying, pulling them by their sleeves, telling them to let their sons go. Four (10)of them were taken away, and then another ten, they were taken in the direction of Budak. But they were speaking our language; they were our people. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So you're saying that they were speaking your language. (15) • A.: Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Were they Muslims? • A.: In the army? No. No. They were all Serbs. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So those (20)soldiers were Serbs. • A.: Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] When you heard them speak, what were they saying?
• A.: Well, they were addressing the mothers who
(25)were there. They would, for example, tell her that
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you (5)very much, Mrs. Hajdarevic, for coming here to the Tribunal. I should like to thank you once again, as my colleagues have done, for sharing with us your suffering. I hope that you will always be able to find reason to live, meaning in life, at least to tell us (10)about the terrible things that have happened. Is there anything else that you should like to say, something you haven't had the opportunity to say? THE WITNESS: [Int.] I should just (15)like to ask one question of these gentlemen from Belgrade. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I'm sorry, Mrs. Hajdarevic, you cannot speak directly to these gentlemen, but perhaps you could ask a general (20)question. THE WITNESS: [Int.] Just a question. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, please. (25)
THE WITNESS:
[Int.] The gentleman
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Well, I suppose he does. THE WITNESS: [Int.] Then how could (5)they have come here to defend a man like Krstic? This is all.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you
very much. I hope that the world will be able to
answer a question like this, and I hope that this will
(10)be an example of how people should be treated. Thank
you very much once again, Mrs. Hajdarevic.
I should like the usher to accompany
Mrs. Hajdarevic out of the courtroom. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. McCloskey.
MR. McCLOSKEY: Before I turn the podium over
to Mr. Harmon, who has the next witness, I just wanted
you to know that in the future we will be providing
(20)evidence on the identities and the units of some of
these people that these witnesses have identified. For
example, Slavoljub Grujicic was a member of the
Bratunac Brigade of the Drina Corps at the time, and
you will see those records and witnesses will explain
(25)those records.
MR. HARMON: Good morning, Mr. President and Your Honours; good morning to my colleagues for the (5)Defence. Our next witness will be a young man named Enver Husic, and he's going to testify without protection.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] We shall
(10)wait for him then. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Can you hear me, Mr. Husic? THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning. You are going to read the solemn declaration that the usher will give you, please. THE WITNESS: [Int.] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, (20)and nothing but the truth.
WITNESS: ENVER HUSIC JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You may be seated. Are you comfortable? (25)
THE WITNESS:
[Int.] Yes.
MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. President. • EXAMINED by Mr. Harmon: • Q.: Good morning, Mr. Husic. • A.: Good morning. (10) • Q.: Now, I'd like to you relax. I'm going to ask you a number of questions about your experiences. Get comfortable. First of all, can you spell your last name for the record, please. (15) • A.: My name is H-u-s-i-c, and my first name is E-n-v-e-r. • Q.: How old are you, Mr. Husic? • A.: I am 22. • Q.: Before the fall of the enclave in 1995, were (20)you living in Srebrenica? • A.: Yes. • Q.: With whom were you living? • A.: I was living with my mother and father, two brothers and a sister. (25)
• Q.: Now, at the time of the fall of the enclave,
• A.: Yes. • Q.: Was he registered as a soldier or did he actually go to the front line? (5) • A.: He was just registered as a soldier. • Q.: Now, you had two brothers. One brother was named Ramiz; is that correct? • A.: Yes. • Q.: How old was Ramiz at the time of the fall of (10)the enclave? • A.: Nineteen. • Q.: Was he a member of the army? • A.: No. • Q.: How old were you at the time of the fall of (15)the enclave? • A.: Seventeen. • Q.: Were you a member of the army? • A.: No. • Q.: Now, you had one other brother; is that (20)correct? • A.: Yes. • Q.: As I understand it, your other brother passed away before the fall of the enclave; am I right on that? (25)
• A.: Yes, yes.
• A.: They went to a place called Potocari. (5) • Q.: Where did you, Ramiz, your brother, and your father go? • A.: We went to a place called Kazani where there were many other people and we headed through the woods. MR. HARMON: If I could have Prosecutor's (10)Exhibit 7A placed on the ELMO. I'm going to show you a map and I'm going to ask you to identify certain places on Prosecutor's Exhibit 7A. • Q.: While we're waiting for the map, can you tell the Judges why was it that you and your father and your (15)brother went through the woods? • A.: We went because the Serbs were shelling, shooting and we feared we would share the fate of many other people who had, during the war, been killed and slaughtered. And we went to the woods hoping we could (20)reach free territory from Tuzla. • Q.: Now, could you take a look at Prosecutor's Exhibit 7A which is on the ELMO. Could you point to some of the locations in your journey where you went through the woods and before you actually surrendered. (25)
MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, if you could show the
• Q.: Take a look at that for just a second, Mr. Husic, and then we'll put it back on the ELMO and (5)then I'd like you to indicate with the pointer your direction of flight. • A.: Yes. This is it. MR. HARMON: Could you just place that back on the ELMO. (10) • Q.: Using the pointer, Mr. Husic, could you point for the Judges' benefit the direction of your flight from the time you left Kazani to the point of your surrender, and please point to the ELMO. • A.: We passed through a place called Susnjari, (15)Buljim, Kamenica, and then Sandici. • Q.: I notice two of the maps -- two of the -- three of the areas are indicated on the map, Buljim is not indicated on the map. Could you point to the area of Buljim on this map since you mentioned it in your (20)testimony?
• A.: Yes, I think this is the location
MR. HARMON: Indicating the circle in the
middle, indicating there's a town in there called Bare,
(25)I believe.
MR. HARMON: I'm finished with the exhibit, Mr. Usher, thank you. • Q.: Can you estimate how many people were (5)gathered at Kazani before people left the enclave and went in the direction of Tuzla? • A.: I can't tell you the exact number, but there were a lot of people there. • Q.: Were there women amongst the people gathered (10)at Kazani? • A.: Yes, there were. I saw about ten women there. • Q.: Were there children? • A.: I didn't see any. (15) • Q.: Now, can you describe the manner in which you left the enclave? • A.: First, we went along a wider road, a group of people. There were a lot of people. It wasn't a proper column across the fields to Buljim. We didn't (20)go along roads, but across the fields a lot of the time. But from a distance, it looked like a column.
• Q.: Okay. Can you tell the Judges approximately
your position in the column; were you in the front of
the column, in the middle of the column, in the rear of
(25)the column?
• Q.: Do you remember the date when you left the enclave? (5) • A.: Yes, it was the 11th. • Q.: Now, accompanying you in the column, were there men with rifles? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And in your part of the column, approximately (10)how many men had rifles? • A.: I could see about 50. • Q.: Do you know the purpose of the men with the rifles in your part of the column? • A.: Their purpose was to protect the rear part of (15)the column. • Q.: Now, briefly, could you tell the Judges what happened once you left Srebrenica and before you surrendered?
• A.: We reached Buljim from Kazani, that is
(20)Srebrenica. I fell asleep from fatigue. I woke up in
the morning, it had dawned, and my father and brother
were not there. They had left before me.
So there were only a few people left in
Buljim, and I was among them. There were about 50
(25)armed Muslims there, soldiers, and I went down hill
• Q.: Mr. Husic, let me interrupt you there for just a minute and let me ask you first of all, do you remember the date it was when you surrendered? (5) • A.: Yes, I do. It was the 13th. • Q.: Now, I want to show you a film; you've seen this before in my office. It's a film of your actual surrender.
MR. HARMON: And if I could, Mr. President,
(10)have transcripts of the film that I'm going to show
disseminated, that would be Prosecutor's Exhibit 103A.
Unfortunately, the transcripts are only in English.
Then once they are disseminated, I'll ask that the film
itself be played.
(15)And if the interpreters could please
translate as the film is being played. The translation
booth has been provided with an English language
transcript.
Now, if the lights could be dimmed, please,
(20)and we could play Prosecutor's Exhibit 103, please.
THE INTERPRETER:
[Voiceover]
I don't know, from some desrt.
How long have you been there?
(25)We were there two days and two nights.
MR. HARMON: Mr. President, not all of the film and all of the language on the film was (15)translated. I know it's difficult for the interpreters to do it following the film, but the translation that has been provided to the Chamber is a complete translation that has been provided to us by the language service section. (20)Now, if I could have Prosecutor's Exhibit 104 placed on the ELMO, please. • Q.: Mr. Husic, I've placed on the ELMO a still image taken from that film we just saw, Prosecutor's Exhibit 103. Is that you in this still image? (25)
• A.: Yes, that's me.
• A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, Mr. Husic, you described in part of your (5)answer that you surrendered because you could hear Bosnian Serbs calling you down to surrender; is that correct? • A.: Not only because we heard them calling out to us to surrender but also because we saw UNPROFOR there, (10)because we thought that they couldn't simply kill us in the presence of UNPROFOR. We hoped that UNPROFOR would transport us to Tuzla, as the Serbs themselves had said.
MR. HARMON: Now, Mr. President and Your
(15)Honours, I'm going to play another film, and I'd ask
that Prosecutor's Exhibit 102A, a transcript from that
film, also be distributed to Your Honours before we
play the film.
Again, if the language booths could try to
(20)follow this and translate this film as well.
I direct Your Honours' attention just to
significant parts of this film. I'll describe it
initially. It's Bosnian Serb soldiers calling into the
woods for people to surrender, and at the end of film
(25)you'll notice an individual wearing a blue UN helmet.
(5)
THE INTERPRETER:
[Voiceover]
How many of them got out already?
About three or four thousands.
And they all surrendered to you here?
Yes.
(10)When we give such a figure, people in
Belgrade usually say it is exaggerated.
Well, it is exaggerated, of course it is.
But that is really how many of them.
Yes. So much. So much.
(15)There they are, look there.
See how he disappeared. There, on the left.
Come on, boys, get out freely, boys.
He was the one who aimed?
Five or six passed.
(20)Get out, hey.
You see them now, do you see them?
There is a whole file of them.
Two, that's how it goes, one after the other,
three.
(25)About fifteen passed now.
MR. HARMON: • Q.: Now, Mr. Husic, does that film accurately (15)depict the events as you recall them? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, you testified in your direct examination that you saw white APCs, armoured personnel carriers, belonging to the UN; you saw Bosnian Serbs in blue (20)helmets. Did you also see Bosnian Serb soldiers in UN camouflage flak jackets? • A.: Yes, I did.
• Q.: Having lived in the enclave and having seen
the UN Dutch Battalion soldiers patrolling through the
(25)enclave, were you familiar with the UN type of
• A.: Yes, I was, 100 per cent. • Q.: Were there a lot of Bosnian Serb soldiers wearing UN camouflage flak jackets, as well as the UN (5)blue helmets? • A.: Not that many. I saw between eight and ten of them. MR. HARMON: If I could have Prosecutor's Exhibits 105, 106, and 107 distributed, first of all, (10)and then placed on the ELMO. These, Mr. President and Your Honours, are, I would say, poor quality still images taken from Prosecutor's Exhibit 103, the film. They are intended to show Your Honours and assist Your Honours, if and (15)when you review the film, with the types of UN flak jackets that are worn by Bosnian Serb soldiers. If you could start, Mr. Usher, by placing Prosecutor's 105 on the ELMO. • Q.: Mr. Husic, these are still images taken from (20)the film of your surrender. Can you tell us what the soldier who is to the left of the man in the blue shirt is wearing? • A.: I can recognise here a UN flak jacket. It is black. (25)
MR. HARMON: Now, could we have the next
• Q.: Can you identify what the man, the soldier, on the left-hand side of this image is wearing? • A.: He's wearing a UN flak jacket. (5) • Q.: Can you point that out with the pointer, please. • A.: Yes, I can. [Indicates] • Q.: Thank you very much. MR. HARMON: Now could we turn to the next (10)image, which is Prosecutor's Exhibit's 107, and place that on the ELMO. • Q.: You've seen this from the film. Could you tell the Judges what the soldier on the right side of this image is wearing? (15) • A.: He's also wearing a UN flak jacket. • Q.: All right. Thank you very much. Now, you also had an opportunity to review other film in my office, and I'd like to show you --
MR. HARMON: I'd like to first of all
(20)distribute for the Judges and counsel Prosecutor's
Exhibit 101A, which is a transcript in English of the
next piece of film footage we're going to show.
If we could lower the lights, please, and
play Prosecutor's Exhibit 101, please.
MR. HARMON: • Q.: Do you recognise those two soldiers who were in a reclining position, Mr. Husic? (10) • A.: Yes, I do. • Q.: Tell the Judges who those individuals are and what they did to you and to other people who were surrendering. • A.: These are two Serb soldiers, whom we have (15)just seen on the screen, that were present there. They were asking people for money, German marks, gold, and everything they had on them. They were searching people. • Q.: Now, at the end of this film, you could see a (20)meadow in the film. Is that the location where, after you surrendered, you eventually ended up, on that particular meadow? • A.: Yes, that is the location.
• Q.: What happened to the bags that were being
(25)carried by the men who were surrendering?
• Q.: Where did they have to leave it? • A.: They had to leave it by the road, by the (5)asphalt road, on both sides of the road. They were not allowed to take it up to the meadow. MR. HARMON: Now, if I could have the next series of exhibits taken to the ELMO, they would be Prosecutor's Exhibits 7/2, 7/5, 7/6, and 7/9. (10)Mr. Usher, we'll start with Prosecutor's Exhibit 7/2. • Q.: Mr. Husic, have you seen Prosecutor's Exhibit 7/2 in my office? • A.: Yes, I have. (15) • Q.: Do you see the dotted yellow line that starts at the top left-hand side of the image, comes down past a house and ends in an oval that is on the left-hand side of the image? Do you see that dotted line? • A.: Yes. (20) • Q.: Does that dotted line represent your route when you descended from the hills and eventually ended up on the meadow? • A.: Yes, it does.
• Q.: Now, let me show you the next exhibit, which
(25)is Prosecutor's Exhibit 7/5. Do you recognise what's
• A.: Yes, I do. I can recognise the meadow and the house I passed on the way. • Q.: Could you use the pointer, please, and first (5)of all point to the house that you passed on the way down from the mountains. • A.: [Indicates] MR. HARMON: Indicating, for the record, Mr. President and Your Honours, the largest house, a (10)little bit off the centre of the picture, on the top side of the road. • Q.: Where is the meadow that you ended up on? • A.: [Indicates] MR. HARMON: Indicating directly below the (15)house on the other side of the road, an area directly off the road. Could we then have Prosecutor's Exhibit 7/6 placed on the ELMO. • Q.: Mr. Husic, do you recognise what's in this (20)image, Prosecutor's 7/6? • A.: Yes, I can recognise the rear side of the house, the back part of the house. • Q.: Could you point to the Judges on which side of the house you passed by when you surrendered? (25)
• A.:
[Indicates] On this side of the house, next
MR. HARMON: Indicating, for the record, the left-hand side of the image. Lastly, Mr. Usher, if you could place the (5)next exhibit, Prosecutor's 7/9, on the ELMO. • Q.: This is a panorama, Mr. Husic. You've had an opportunity to see this in my office. MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, if you could place it a little more to the left, please, so we could show the (10)house. • Q.: Do you recognise that building, Mr. Husic? • A.: Yes, I do. • Q.: What is that building?
• A.: It was next to this house
[indicates] that I
(15)passed on my way, on this side of the house MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, if you could keep moving that image to the left. • Q.: Do you see the meadow on which you (20)surrendered, Mr. Husic, on this particular panorama? • A.: Yes, I can see it. • Q.: Could you point it out? • A.: [Indicates]
MR. HARMON: Indicating a green area to the
(25)right of the house, below the road.
• A.: I was told to sit down with a group of (5)people, and I went to the left side of the group and I sat down. There were lots of Serb soldiers around us, and to my left was a tank -- I'm sorry, to my right. I could see Serb soldiers coming to the group, asking people for money. (10)They were also taking people away to a nearby cornfield, behind the tank, and they took people away as they pleased. They cursed at them, they cursed at their balija mothers, telling them, "Where is your Alija to help you now? Wait until Ratko Mladic comes (15)here." • Q.: Can you tell us, Mr. Husic, how were those soldiers dressed who were surrounding you in the meadow? • A.: Black camouflage uniform -- green. (20) • Q.: I'm sorry. Would you repeat your answer, please. • A.: They were dressed in camouflage uniforms but they were different, not all of them were the same.
• Q.: Could you describe the uniforms as best you
(25)can recall them, each of the different types of
• A.: I can remember that there was a blue police uniform, which was also a camouflage uniform, and a military uniform that was used by the Serbian army. I (5)also remember a multicoloured open uniform, light coloured. • Q.: How many blue police camouflage uniforms did you see while you were at the meadow? • A.: I didn't see a single one, but I could (10)recognise the pattern of the uniform. It was a green camouflage uniform. • Q.: Now, we have seen in both the films that we've played and the still images, we've seen people in green camouflage uniforms. Is that the type of uniform (15)that you saw, generally speaking? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, can you estimate approximately how many people were on the meadow when you arrived in the group? (20) • A.: Between 900 and 1.000. • Q.: Did you see anybody, any family member that you knew amongst those people on the meadow? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Who did you see? (25)
• A.: I saw two brothers from the village of Osmac,
• Q.: Did you see your father? (5) • A.: No. • Q.: Did you see your brother? • A.: No. • Q.: So you were alone on the meadow in so far as your direct family relations? (10) • A.: No, I'm referring only to the video. But I did see my brother and my father in the meadow. • Q.: Now, can you describe for the Judges what you saw the soldiers doing to the people, the Muslim men who were sitting on the meadow? (15) • A.: The worst. They were cursing at people, they were kicking them, taking them away to the house. There was a relative of mine, Husic Safet, who was taken away in this fashion, and he never came back. I remember a man who was sitting in front of me, he gave (20)20 German marks to a Serbian soldier wearing glasses. They were taking people away to the cornfield which was behind the tank to the right side. And many of them would come to the group and hit the people.
• Q.: You said you saw some men being taken to a
(25)cornfield. Were they Muslim men being taken to the
• A.: Yes. Yes, they were. • Q.: Did you see those -- the -- did Bosnian Serb soldiers take the Muslim men to the cornfields? (5) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Did you see those Bosnian Serb soldiers return from the cornfields without the Muslim men who had been escorted in that direction? • A.: Yes. (10) • Q.: Now, continue telling the Judges what happened while you were at this particular meadow. What did you do? What were you asked to do?
• A.: While I was sitting there, a soldier who was
on the tank, on my right-hand side, he cursed my balija
(15)mother and told me to get up. But the man who was
sitting next to me stood up because he was confused.
He didn't know whom the soldier had in mind. But then
he pointed at me.
So I stood up and I went to the tank and they
(20)gave me two jerrycans, and I was told to go to the
asphalt road and to continue along the road, and to my
left, that there would be some water.
So I took those two jerrycans and I went to
the left, down the road, and I filled them with water.
(25)I returned to the meadow, and the Serb soldier ordered
(15) • Q.: Can you describe the soldiers, Bosnian Serb soldiers who were in Tisca? What were they wearing? • A.: They were wearing those same uniforms as those down there, only they looked a little newer to me. (20) • Q.: Describe the uniforms, were they camouflage uniforms?
• A.: Camouflage, yes, camouflage, green and a sort
of off white. It's not really white. I don't know how
I can describe that colour. Anyway, they were new
(25)camouflage uniforms.
MR. HARMON: If I could have Prosecutor's Exhibit 7/4 placed on the ELMO. (5) • Q.: And you testified, Mr. Husic, that there was a tank that was on the meadow near the prisoners who were sitting? • A.: Yes, yes. • Q.: I'd like to show you Prosecutor's Exhibit 7/4 (10)which is now on the ELMO, and do you see the -- could you point out for the Judges the location of the tank that you remember? • A.: Yes, I can, here [indicates] MR. HARMON: Indicating for the record the (15)unidentified vehicle on the right side of the image. • Q.: Now, lastly, Mr. Husic, I'm going to show you some additional exhibits? MR. HARMON: If I could have Prosecutor's Exhibits 108, 109, 110, and 111 disseminated. These, (20)Mr. President, Your Honours, and counsel are still images taken from Prosecutor's Exhibit 103. If we could start, Mr. Usher, with Prosecutor's Exhibit 108.
• Q.: Mr. Husic, this is an image from the film of
(25)your surrender. Can you please tell the Judges who
• A.: They are the brothers that I mentioned when I was telling you about it, Osman. • Q.: Now, these two brothers, to your knowledge, (5)Mr. Husic, did they survive? • A.: No, they didn't survive. • Q.: Did their father survive? • A.: No. He was taken to the cornfield behind the tank. (10) • Q.: Let me show you another picture of a man who surrendered to the Bosnian Serb army, again taken from your film of your surrender, Prosecutor's Exhibit 109. Do you see the man in the blue shirt in the middle of that image and he's flanked by two Bosnian (15)Serb soldiers? Can you tell us his name? • A.: Ramo is his name. • Q.: Did Ramo survive? • A.: No. • Q.: Let me go to the next image which is (20)Prosecutor's Exhibit 110. Again, an image showing a number of men who were surrendering today Bosnian Serb soldiers. Can you identify any specific individual in this exhibit?
• A.: On the right, his name is Juso, and did he
(25)not survive.
MR. HARMON: Indicating, for the record, a man who appears to be in a brown-coloured coat or jacket and he's on the right. (5) • Q.: Lastly, in this series of exhibits, let me show you Prosecutor's Exhibit 111. First of all, Mr. Husic, do you see yourself in that exhibit? • A.: Yes, I do. (10) • Q.: Could you point out where you are in this image? MR. HARMON: Indicating the individual who is the second individual from the left-hand side. • Q.: Now, do you see the man in the camouflage (15)T-shirt directly in front of you? • A.: Yes, I do. • Q.: Could you tell the judges what happened to that man? • A.: They ordered him to take off his T-shirt, and (20)they took him to the cornfield and he also did not survive.
• Q.: Now, in addition, Mr. Husic, to these
individuals who were shown surrendering to the Bosnian
Serb army, were there a number of other individuals you
(25)can identify by name who did not survive?
• Q.: Could you please identify those individuals, who you saw alive on the meadow who not survive? • A.: I know my neighbours, Husic Mehemed, Husic (5)Mehmedalija, Husic Safet, and another man named called Sead Krdzic. They also did not survive. • Q.: Do you know an individual named Sajdin Husic? • A.: Yes. That is my father who also did not survive. He stayed behind there. (10) • Q.: My last question, Mr. Husic, all of these individuals you've seen in the images and who you have named who did not survive, were they Bosnian Muslims? • A.: Yes, they were. • Q.: Mr. Husic, thank you, very much. (15) MR. HARMON: I've concluded my examination, Mr. President. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, very much, Mr. Harmon. I think this is a good time for a break (20)before the cross-examination. So we'll have a 20-minute break now. --- Recess taken at 11.37 a.m. --- On resuming at 11.56 a.m.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Mr. Husic,
(25)have you had some rest during the break?
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Now you will answer questions that will be put to you by (5)Mr. Visnjic, who is counsel for the Defence here. Mr. Visnjic, you have the floor. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. • CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Visnjic: (10) • Q.: Good morning, Mr. Husic. • A.: Good morning. • Q.: Mr. Husic, in your statement, or rather during your direct testimony, you said that while you were going to the woods, and prior to your surrender, (15)that there had been a group of soldiers with you who were armed; is that correct? • A.: Yes, it is. • Q.: That there were 50 of them. • A.: Yes, there were. (20) • Q.: Let's try to have short breaks between questions and answers. Could you tell me, Mr. Husic, something about those soldiers? Did any of them surrender, of those who had weapons? (25)
• A.: No, I didn't see that.
• A.: I couldn't tell you anything about that (5)because I didn't see anything. • Q.: While you were on the hill, could you see the Serb soldiers calling out to you from the asphalt road? • A.: Yes. • Q.: How far were you from them at that moment? (10)Could you give us an estimate? • A.: I couldn't. • Q.: Did you see them before you decided to surrender or afterwards? • A.: Could you please be more precise in your (15)questions, sir. • Q.: At one point you saw Serb soldiers there. Was it before or after you reached the decision to surrender? • A.: We had seen them prior to that. (20) • Q.: You mean before you reached the decision to surrender. • A.: Yes, that's correct. • Q.: Thank you. Mr. Husic, how many soldiers, Serb soldiers, approximately, were there at the meadow? (25)
• A.: There were a lot of them. I couldn't tell
• Q.: You were living in Srebrenica before 1995, the last three years preceding 1995. (5) • A.: No. Two years. • Q.: During those two years, did you leave Srebrenica? Did you get out of Srebrenica? • A.: No, I didn't. • Q.: During those two years, did you ever see Serb (10)soldiers? • A.: [No audible response] • Q.: Was there any -- MR. HARMON: Excuse me. There was no answer, at least translated, to that question of Mr. Visnjic's, (15)and in order to make the record complete, I think we need an answer to that last question. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] • Q.: During those two years, for the record, Witness, did you see Serb soldiers? (20) • A.: No, I didn't. • Q.: The Muslim army that was in Srebrenica, did they have any special uniform? • A.: No, I didn't see that but I don't think so.
• Q.: You testified in direct about a difference
(25)between three kinds of uniforms, that there was a blue
• A.: Yes. • Q.: Those were all uniforms of the Serb army. (5) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Could you explain, then, to me, you didn't leave Srebrenica and you didn't see Serb soldiers during that time, so how do you know that they used to have different kinds of uniforms? (10) • A.: Well, at the moment I surrendered, I could observe that, and I also saw that later on on TV and I learned that those were Serb uniforms. • Q.: Could you give us an estimate of the number of people who were on the meadow where you were? (15) • A.: Between 900 and 1.000. • Q.: You testified during the examination-in-chief about a video film, which has been shown by the Prosecutor, where we could see two Serb soldiers who were identified by you as the soldiers who were (20)searching people for money. • A.: Yes. • Q.: Could you observe on their uniforms, on their right sleeve, a sign in three colours, with the lettering "Policija" on it? (25)
• A.: No, I didn't.
(5) • A.: No, I didn't. • Q.: According to your impression, the Serb soldiers who were moving in the area, were they members of one unit or members of various units? Were they just individuals coming in and out? Were those units (10)outside any control? Was there any command? • A.: I could see three different kinds of uniforms, so I don't think that they were members of one and the same unit. • Q.: You mentioned the TV, the watching of TV (15)after you had crossed over to the free territory. Could you tell us whether you had seen Muslim soldiers on TV, those who had managed to break through to the free territory? • A.: I didn't see any soldiers; I only saw (20)civilians. • Q.: But you did watch TV. • A.: No, I didn't watch. • Q.: When you reached Tisca, you got off the bus. • A.: Yes. (25)
• Q.: And you continued on foot.
• Q.: Did anyone approach you, anyone from amongst the Serb civilians or the military? Was there anything special that you could observe at that moment? (5) • A.: Nobody approached me personally. • Q.: Does the name "Ejub Golic" tell you something? • A.: Ejub Golic? Yes. • Q.: Was he a commander of a Muslim unit? (10) • A.: According to what I have heard, yes. • Q.: Did he also take part in the breakthrough? • A.: Yes, I heard that he did so. • Q.: But you don't know anything else about that. • A.: No, I don't. (15) • Q.: Have you heard of a unit called the Mountain Battalion of the Muslim army? • A.: Yes, I have. • Q.: The soldiers who were protecting you, who were with your group, were they members of that (20)Mountain Battalion? • A.: Yes, they were. • Q.: Thank you.
MR. VISNJIC:
[Int.] Your Honour, I
have no other questions to ask of this witness.
(25)Thank you, Mr. Husic.
MR. HARMON: There will be none, (5)Mr. President. Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Mr. Harmon. Judge Riad. JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] Thank you, (10)Mr. President. • QUESTIONED by the Court: JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Husic, good morning. • A.: Good morning, Your Honour. JUDGE RIAD: I understood you said that your (15)father did not survive. • A.: Yes. JUDGE RIAD: You also mentioned that many people did not survive, thousands or whatever. How do you know they did not survive? Do you have any news? (20)Or perhaps they are somewhere. • A.: I don't think that they have survived. They have been missing for five years, and I think that they were executed like everybody else, that they were killed. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: Now, speaking of execution, you
• A.: No shooting could be heard, so I think they did it with a knife or something else. JUDGE RIAD: But no evidence was there. You did not see blood around; you didn't hear shouts, (10)cries. When people are slaughtered, they can react. Did you feel anything? What was the atmosphere like? Of course, they did not disappear by enchantment, but how was it? How did it happen? • A.: It happened in a simple way. They would come (15)and take men away and the person would never come back. And we didn't hear anything. JUDGE RIAD: You were all in the same -- • A.: They would come -- yes, on the meadow, near the tank. (20) JUDGE RIAD: On the meadow, near the tank. If they were killed, how could they hide them? Where did they hide them? • A.: I couldn't tell you anything about that. I didn't see it. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: Was it in the woods that they
• A.: It was a cornfield, maize field, not a (5)forest, where they took people. JUDGE RIAD: And the maize was high, it could hide a person. • A.: Yes. Yes. JUDGE RIAD: Yes. Then, concerning your (10)father, you are sure he did not survive? Did they find his corpse, or did some people inform you that he did not survive? Can we still hope that he is alive? • A.: I can always hope, but judging by the kind of people who were there, I very much doubt that he would (15)have survived. I didn't hear anything and he has not been identified as one of the killed. JUDGE RIAD: Now, you mentioned something rather important. You said that some of the soldiers were in the Serbian military uniform. Do you mean the (20)military uniform of the Serbian army or of the Bosnian Serb army? Because there is a difference. Do you know the difference?
• A.: Well, I think that they were members of the
Serb army, that is, the army of the Bosnian Serbs. But
(25)I couldn't tell you the difference.
• A.: It was difficult. I could only see some kind (5)of black ribbons on their shoulders. JUDGE RIAD: And they were, I think, as you said, in camouflage, black and green; is that right? • A.: Yes, that's right. JUDGE RIAD: Was this indicative of a certain (10)group of military people, of a certain division which you knew about? • A.: Well, it was indicative of one particular group because there was a group of people who were wearing the same uniforms and those black ribbons. (15) JUDGE RIAD: Do you know the name of the group? • A.: No. No.
JUDGE RIAD: Now, in one of the exhibits
which we saw, the pictures or the movie, there was a
(20)very interesting answer of a soldier to another
soldier, when one of them was saying, "3.000 have
surrendered and the people in Belgrade think we
exaggerate."
Now, what is the people of Belgrade's
(25)business with Srebrenica? Do you have an idea?
JUDGE RIAD: So the soldiers were speaking about Belgrade as if they come from there or what? (5) • A.: In a different sense, I think, that they -- that they were informed about the media. JUDGE RIAD: Now, the last question: When you said that the soldiers were taking people behind the tank and they disappeared after that, whom did -- (10)was there any kind of preference or priorities? Whom did they take? Would they take -- did they choose just something like guessing or taking people, a certain kind of people? For instance, people who prove to be military or that sort of thing or young. Was there any (15)indication whom they were looking for? • A.: They took people at random as they pleased. I know that this young man in a T-shirt was taken away probably because they thought he was a soldier. JUDGE RIAD: And they took other people who (20)were not soldiers, who could not be soldiers? • A.: Yes. They couldn't be soldiers. JUDGE RIAD: You mean old or children or boys or what?
• A.: Also elderly people and young people. People
(25)who were dressed in civilian clothes who were not
JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. Husic. Thank you. I hope your father will come back. Thank you. • A.: Thank you. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, Judge Riad. Judge Wald. JUDGE WALD: Mr. Husic, when you started out from Srebrenica with the -- or near Srebrenica with the (10)column of men that were going to go through the woods, did you know the reason why it had been decided that the men who would go through the woods on their own to try to reach Tuzla, and the women and children would be helped to get along to the UN Compound in Potocari? (15)I mean what -- did anybody say out loud what was the basis for that decision since everybody, obviously, wanted to get out and get into the free territory? Do you know why it was decided to have a (20)column of men go through the woods and have the women and children go ahead and the elderly go ahead to the UN Compound?
• A.: I don't know why a decision like that had
been reached. I simply followed those men together
(25)with my brother and my father. And the main objective
(5) JUDGE WALD: But there was, I gather, from your answer, a fear that if the men went with the women and the children up to Potocari, that harm would befall them as opposed to the women and children; is that right? (10) • A.: Yes. Yes. JUDGE WALD: When Judge Riad asked you about how you knew that many of the people you talked about or identified did not survive, could you tell us approximately or about how many people you saw the (15)soldiers pull out of the crowd or the column, take away behind the cornfields or in the cornfields behind the tank, you saw something actually done to them to the extent they were taken away, as opposed to people that you just have no idea what happened to them, they just (20)disappeared? • A.: You mean from the meadow, concerning the people who were taken away? JUDGE WALD: Yes.
• A.: I don't know what happened to them after I
(25)left the meadow. I don't know what was their fate.
• A.: Several of them would take them away. One of the men was taken away by two people, two men. JUDGE WALD: Well, let me just ask you one final question about that. (10)Would you say that you saw that happen, you saw a Muslim man taken either out of the meadow or away from the column by soldiers, singled out and taken away? Would you say six, twelve, I don't know, how many, about? (15) • A.: No, I saw between four and six of such cases that I saw personally. JUDGE WALD: And the rest of the people that you say did not survive, it means that they were either in the meadow or in the column and then they were just (20)never seen again, that you know about. Right? • A.: Yes. JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you
very much, Judge Wald.
(25)Mr. Husic, I have two questions for you.
(5) • A.: Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So before you surrendered, did you have an opportunity to see the soldiers or at least the individuals whom you believed to be UN soldiers? (10) • A.: Yes. They were walking up and down the road. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So could you then tell us what tilted the balance in favour of the decision to surrender, because you were insisting -- the fact that you saw them, did you insist (15)because of that? • A.: Well, if we hadn't seen the UN soldiers and the UN personnel carrier, we probably wouldn't surrender. But there was some hope because of the presence of UNPROFOR, and we thought that they would (20)not dare kill us all in their presence. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] What was your reaction when you finally realised that they were not UNPROFOR soldiers?
• A.: Well, I knew what was in store for us. I
(25)realised that we had been lured down to the asphalt
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, Witness. My second question is the following: A (5)soldier told you at one point that Alija was not there to protect you but that you will wait and that you will see Ratko Mladic, who would arrive to the meadow. What was your reaction to those words? Did you believe that Ratko Mladic would come or not? (10) • A.: We believed. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Why? Why did you believe that? • A.: Because whatever they said, they did. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] But when (15)were the threats made? • A.: At the moment we came down to the meadow, a Serb soldier at one point said, "Wait until General Mladic comes here." JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Did you see (20)Ratko Mladic? • A.: No, I didn't. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Do you remember what language the soldiers spoke?
• A.: You mean -- yeah, they were speaking
(25)Serbo-Croatian.
• A.: No. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, very much, Witness. I don't have any other questions. We are aware of the fact that you have lived through some terrible events. You have answered questions that were put to you by the Prosecutor, by (10)the Defence, and by the Judges. Is there anything else, Witness, that you wish to say? Is there anything that have you not had opportunity to say so far? • A.: I believe I have said everything that I had (15)to say. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you. Thank you, very much. I believe that there are some exhibits to be taken care of. Witness, could you please stay here a while. (20)Mr. Harmon.
MR. HARMON: Mr. President, there are a
number of exhibits. There are three film clips which
are Prosecutor's Exhibit 101, 102, and 103 and
companion transcripts, 101, 102, and 103A.
(25)Then there is Prosecutor's Exhibit 104 which
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Visnjic, any objections. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] No, Your (15)Honour.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well
then. Mr. Dubuisson, the exhibits mentioned by the
Prosecutor, will be admitted into evidence. Will you
please take note of that. Thank you.
(20)Mr. Husic, you're still a very young man and
you will probably live a very long life. We would like
to congratulate you that you have survived, and I
know -- hope that you are aware of the importance of
the role that you have to tell the story that you have
(25)been through. All these events should be condemned.
• A.: Thank you, Your Honour. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I see that -- I hope you have another witness, Mr. Harmon. (10) MR. HARMON: Yes, we have another witness, Mr. President, a protected witness. Mr. McCloskey will lead the evidence with the next witness. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] We have worked for 40 minutes. Perhaps we should begin with (15)that testimony and then after that, we will have a longer break so as to manage the time available to us in the best possible manner. Can we have the witness brought in, please? I should like us first to specify the (20)protective measures that are requested. MR. HARMON: The witness will require a pseudonym and face distortion, so the courtroom will have to be prepared for the witness to arrive.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] In that
(25)case, Mr. Petrusic.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] In that (5)case, it would perhaps be better to have a 20-minute break and when we resume, the Judges will already have the witness in the courtroom. So a 20-minute break, please. --- Recess taken at 12.33 p.m. (10)
--- On resuming at 12.54 p.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good afternoon, Witness L. Do you hear me? THE WITNESS: [Int.] I do. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You're going to read the solemn declaration that the usher will give you, please. THE WITNESS: [Int.] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, (20)and nothing but the truth.
WITNESS: WITNESS L
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Please be
seated. The registrar is going to show you a piece of
(25)paper with your name written on it. Please tell us
THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Therefore, that is, indeed, your name. Is that your name, (5)Witness L? THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Now you will be answering questions put to you by Mr. McCloskey, the Prosecutor, who is standing to your (10)right. Mr. McCloskey, I give you the floor, please. MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. Before I get to the witness, one small piece of business from yesterday. We apparently discovered (15)some French translations of yesterday's protective witness' medical records, which I offer as evidence under seal, Exhibit 118A and 117B, which I believe have been provided to the Registry. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] (20)Mr. Dubuisson, do you have the exhibits? THE REGISTRAR: [Int.] Yes, I do. I'm going to distribute them to the parties.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well.
Thank you.
(25)Are you in a position to start,
MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, we are. Mr. President, is there a particular time you think you might want to break so that I can try to anticipate that, or do you (5)want to just see how it goes? JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. A very good question, and thank you. Perhaps halfway along we'll have a 15-minute break. We've already, I think, have three breaks today, so we'll have a (10)fourth. Today is going to be an exception. We'll make a break about halfway along of about 15 minutes, so you can control your time. Thank you. • EXAMINED by Mr. McCloskey: • Q.: Witness L, none of that involved you, but (15)it's now time to ask you some questions, to have your testimony. First of all, can you tell us where you're from. • A.: I'm from the municipality of Zvornik, the (20)village of [redacted] • Q.: What's your birth date? • A.: I was born on the [redacted] • Q.: Are you a Muslim by faith? • A.: I am. (25)
• Q.: Prior to the war breaking out, you were
• A.: Yes. • Q.: Where were you working? • A.: I was working in Belgrade. (5) • Q.: What was the name of the company? • A.: Ratko Mitrovic . • Q.: How long had you worked for that company prior to the breaking out of the war? • A.: I worked there for 18 years and several (10)months. • Q.: What kind of work was that? • A.: I was a construction worker. I was a skilled worker for reinforced concrete. • Q.: After the war started, when did you move to (15)Srebrenica? • A.: I moved to Srebrenica on the 14th of March, 1993. • Q.: Where were you living on July 11th, 1995? • A.: On the 11th of July, 1995, I was living in (20)Srebrenica. • Q.: Who were you living with? • A.: I was living with two brothers. • Q.: What was your occupation? How did you keep yourself alive? (25)
• A.: We lived off the land, we farmed the land,
• Q.: Were any of the three brothers in your family in the military? • A.: Yes, one of my brothers, but he was a cook. (5) • Q.: What did the three brothers decide to do on July 11th when the town was falling to the Bosnian Serb army? • A.: One of my brothers was disabled. He was not disabled during the war; he had a bad leg. He went to (10)Potocari, surrendered to UNPROFOR. And the other brother headed, together with me, into the woods. • Q.: Did any of your brothers make it? • A.: Yes. This one who was disabled, he was allowed to cross into our territory. (15) • Q.: How about your other brother, the brother that was a cook in the army? • A.: The other brother was with me. He was captured together with me, and I don't know anything as to what happened to him. (20) • Q.: What did you decide to do on July 11th? • A.: On July the 11th, when Srebrenica fell, we decided to travel towards the free territory of Tuzla, through the woods. • Q.: So where did you first go? (25)
• A.: We first went to a rally in the village of
• Q.: Do you have any knowledge about the decision-making process that the men took to decide to rally there around Susnjari? (5) • A.: I don't know, because the commanders must have known. I'm not familiar with that. • Q.: When you got to Susnjari, about what time did you get there? • A.: We got there in the evening, perhaps it was (10)around 10.00. • Q.: So that evening of July 11th, when you got to this area -- • A.: Yes, yes, yes, yes. • Q.: -- are you able to give any kind of an (15)estimate of how many people were gathered in that area? • A.: According to an estimate, there were between 10.000 and 15.000 people. • Q.: Is that an estimate someone's told you, or is that your personal estimate from actually looking at (20)the crowd? • A.: No, it was our personal estimate. • Q.: When you say "our", who do you mean? • A.: I mean myself, I mean mine.
• Q.: Were there any women or children in that
(25)crowd, or was it mostly men?
• Q.: Could you tell how many men were armed with weapons? • A.: There were some with weapons but I don't know (5)the number. Maybe 200, 300. I don't know exactly. • Q.: These are the ones that were within your area of vision; is that right? • A.: Yes. • Q.: So there could have been many more than 200. (10) • A.: I don't know. I couldn't even see them all. • Q.: Did you hear any commanders make any decisions or announce anything to the group while you were there in Susnjari? • A.: No, I didn't hear anything. (15) • Q.: What happened after you got there? • A.: What happened was that when we arrived, that evening columns were formed, I heard from this other men, that they started leaving around midnight. My column left in the afternoon. (20) • Q.: Do you know roughly how many people were in that first column or group of men that left at midnight? • A.: I don't know because the column went continuously. (25)
• Q.: So you didn't leave the Susnjari area until
• A.: Yes. It was a Wednesday. • Q.: Do you know roughly how many people were in (5)your group? • A.: I don't know because as one group left, another went after it. So it would be difficult to tell how many men were in each group. • Q.: Do you know why the men decided to go through (10)the woods the way they did? • A.: Because we didn't dare go to Potocari, because we saw the situation, that they had threatened us that if Srebrenica fell, that they would settle accounts with the able-bodied men, and that is, anyway, (15)what they did. • Q.: When you finally got started in your group, on the 12th, can you describe the journey through the woods until you surrendered?
• A.: When we started from Susnjari, we were going
(20)for about 300 metres and then we entered the woods
called Buljim. Shortly after that the column stopped.
When we stopped, men asked that the few remaining
people with weapons should go in front. And those
people who were going in front of me saw some dead
(25)bodies and they became afraid.
• Q.: I'm sorry to interrupt you. Let me take you back and ask you a couple of clarifying questions, if I can. How many people in your group decided to finally surrender? (20) • A.: I don't know the numbers, but it was a very large column. It was about 200 metres long, and it went two by two in most cases.
• Q.: When you first came to the area where you
were able to see Serb soldiers, can you give us any
(25)kind of an estimate of how many Serb soldiers you were
• A.: According to an estimate, there were at least 50 Serb soldiers. There was a personnel carrier that was parked there, and there were some artillery weapons (5)too, but we didn't dare look at them because we didn't have time. We were running to the place where we had to sit. • Q.: You said the first group of Serb soldiers was about 50. Do you know what kind of outfits they were (10)wearing? • A.: Camouflage uniforms, as worn by the army of the Republika Srpska. • Q.: You said this group tried to take your money. What about personal belongings? (15) • A.: Yes. • Q.: What about personal belongings that people had with them? • A.: They seized our personal belongings as well, and if anyone had a hat on his head, they took that off (20)too. • Q.: Do you know roughly where this area was that you were finally placed, among of rows of people, near the asphalt road?
• A.: This was between Sandici and Kravica,
(25)according to my judgement, because I was coming from
• Q.: What happened once you got there and were put among those rows of other Muslim men? (5) • A.: When we got there, we had to form rows, and then there was a change of shift and they told us some other troops had arrived also wearing camouflage uniforms. Then they said, "These are Arkan's men." I didn't notice any badges on them or not with the words (10)"Arkanovci" on it because we didn't dare look. There were two soldiers to each row. Then one of those soldiers who was on the personnel carrier said, "Don't let me kill you all, and then I could go to The Hague." He knew what "The (15)Hague" meant even then. He was a young man of 25, not more. Then when those soldiers came, they said that they were Arkanovci. They forced us to lie down on our stomachs and then shout, "Long live the King," and we (20)did. Then again they told us to sit up. When we sat up normally, then it was about an hour or an hour and a half before nightfall. I didn't have a watch. Then the gentleman, General Mladic, arrived.
• Q.: Excuse me for interrupting you, but the
(25)interpreters have to interpret everything you're saying
(5) • A.: Yes. Yes, I'll do that. • Q.: So this second group of soldiers that arrived, the second shift as you've called it -- • A.: Yes, yes. • Q.: -- how many was in that second shift? (10) • A.: I don't know the number, but I think, again, there were at least 50, because there were two soldiers to each row and there were more than 20 rows, maybe 25. That's why my estimate was about 50. • Q.: Were those soldiers armed? (15) • A.: Yes, with automatic rifles. • Q.: About the time that you said Mladic arrived, do you have an estimate of how many Muslim men were sitting in this area where you were? • A.: At least 2.000, maybe as many as 2.500. (20) • Q.: What time did Mladic arrive? • A.: I didn't have a watch, but it was an hour and a half prior to nightfall, I think. • Q.: And that time in Bosnia would be roughly what time? (25)
• A.: It would be about 7.30 because it was
• Q.: How were you able to recognise Mladic? • A.: I hadn't known Mladic from before, but people who watched television knew him, and I recognised (5)Mladic when I reached free territory. • Q.: What happened when Mladic got there? • A.: When Mladic came, he said, "Good evening, neighbours." We replied, "Good evening." And then he said, "The governments are negotiating, and tomorrow (10)you will all be exchanged for all." We will go to hangars. We won't have any supper, but we will have water . • Q.: I'll just ask you to slow down a little bit if you could. Anything else that you remember him (15)saying? • A.: He said that we would be exchanged the next day, all for all, and he said that we would be given water, that we would go to some hangars. But he didn't say that we would be given any supper, though the (20)previous -- his predecessor said we would be given supper. We thanked him and we applauded him when he promised that he would exchange us the next day.
• Q.: Okay. Can you tell us how long you --
(25)between the time that Mladic had spoke to you and the
• A.: Five or ten minutes, perhaps. (5) • Q.: How long were you at that meadow for the whole day? • A.: We were there for about three or four hours. • Q.: Did you notice any of the Muslim men being abused in any way during those three or four hours? (10) • A.: No. No one was abused. • Q.: Did you see anyone transported, any of the Muslim men transported away in any direction by any vehicles or marched away by foot? • A.: No, they let a woman go and a child, and two (15)young girls, and they let go eight to ten boys between 12 and 14. These were released by one of the Serb soldiers. • Q.: Did you hear any announcement about young men or how did you know that they picked out boys 12 to 14? (20) • A.: They didn't make any announcements, but the boys of that age would get up. A rather large boy that got up, they told him to sit down because he was big enough to carry a machine-gun. (25)
• Q.: Do you have any idea what happened to those
• A.: Those children were immediately sent by vehicle and they were released. The vehicle went to free territory to Tuzla. (5) • Q.: How do you know they were released? • A.: Because I came across that boy and I asked him and he said yes. • Q.: So after all this, you ran across one of the boys you saw released in the field in the free (10)territory? • A.: No, I hadn't seen him, but I spoke to people I had known, and I met him while I was living in Srebrenica. • Q.: Okay. And what happened after Mladic's (15)little speech was over?
• A.: When Mladic finished, he left after some 10
or 15 minutes. The vehicles that had taken the women
and children to free territory returned.
Then we were ordered for the first row to get
(20)up and to board the vehicle. Then the first row got
up, then the second row, and row by row, I don't
remember which row I was in, my turn came. I boarded a
trailer of a truck. Then I saw a Serb soldier with a
cockade entering and saying that he would board the
(25)truck with the driver. He didn't mistreat us, he
• Q.: I'm sorry, you said you saw a Serb soldier with a something, I didn't quite understand what it was that you saw this Serb soldier have. (5) • A.: Cockade, it's a Chetnik badge on a hat that used to be worn by Chetniks. • Q.: Did this person have a weapon? • A.: I cannot recollect whether he had a weapon inside the vehicle or not. (10) • Q.: And the vehicle that you got into, can you describe what kind of vehicle that was? • A.: It was a truck with a trailer, and I was in the trailer. You know what a truck is and a trailer. • Q.: Can you tell me what normally is carried in (15)the trailer that you and other men were in? • A.: One usually transports coal because the sides were rather high, the kind used for coal or agricultural produce that is light so to avoid it spilling over. (20) • Q.: Can you describe the size of this trailer and the height of the sides? • A.: The trailer was at least 10 metres long and the sides may have been 1.20 metres, 1.40 metres. • Q.: About how wide was it? (25)
• A.: Probably two and a half to three metres, I
• Q.: And do you know roughly how many men were put in the back of this trailer? (5) • A.: I don't know. Between 25 and 30 at least could fit, but I don't remember. I didn't count. • Q.: Were the men standing or sitting or a combination of both? • A.: They were sitting. All of them were sitting. (10) • Q.: So while you were sitting in there, the height of the sides of the trailer must have been well over your heads so it would be difficult to see out; is that right? • A.: Yes. (15) • Q.: And could you tell before you actually sat in the trailer how many other vehicles were on either side of the trailer you got into? • A.: I don't know. There were some vehicles, but how many, I don't know. (20) • Q.: Do you have any way to give us any kind of an estimate? More than three? • A.: More, of course. There may have been 10 or 15 vehicles. • Q.: And what kind of vehicles were they? (25)
• A.: There were trucks, trailers, buses, trucks
• Q.: That day while you were in that meadow lined up with the men, did you see vehicles go by you on the (5)asphalt road? • A.: We only saw those vehicles taking the women and children. There were no other vehicles on the road at the time. • Q.: And what direction were the women and (10)children being taken into in vehicles when you were sitting on the meadow? • A.: They were driving them in the direction of Kladanj towards the free territory of the Tuzla region. • Q.: And when you were put in the back of this (15)trailer, how long were you in the back of the trailer until the truck moved off? • A.: It moved off soon after that. • Q.: And which direction did it go in? • A.: In the direction of Bratunac. (20) • Q.: And where did it go?
• A.: We were taken to Bratunac and once we got
there, they took us to a man who was a driver, and he
said that the buses belonged to the Vihor Transport
Company and that the garages that were there were also
(25)part of the Vihor Company. But I didn't know the man,
• Q.: Was this the man that was in the back of the trailer with you or someone else? • A.: He was in the back of the trailer with me, he (5)was in the same trailer. • Q.: When you got into the town of Bratunac, how did you know you were in the town if you were down low in the bed of this trailer? • A.: Well, we could see on our left-hand side, (10)because the buildings were three to four floors high. And on the right side, there seemed to have been no buildings at all. • Q.: And do you know roughly what time of day or evening it was when you arrived in Bratunac? (15) • A.: It was in the evening at about half past nine. It was already dark. • Q.: And as you were sitting in the back of this trailer, could you tell how many other vehicles were around your vehicle? (20) • A.: The vehicles were parked, one after the other. According to my estimate, I know that there were many of them both ahead and behind, and I know that Serb soldiers were looking for men who were on those buses. (25)
• Q.: How do you know Serb soldiers were looking
• A.: We could hear them. We could hear them ask about the vehicle, because we didn't know that, we just (5)realised that when they came to our vehicle. First they asked about a village of Pusmulici, near Srebrenica. • Q.: Now, who were they asking about this village? Were these people in your vehicle or one of (10)the other vehicles? • A.: In one of the other vehicles that were near us. • Q.: You were just able to hear this from where you were sitting. (15) • A.: Yes. Yes, I could hear them. They were talking in loud voices. • Q.: Why didn't you stand up and look out? • A.: Well, I didn't dare do it. There were Serb soldiers standing guard around the vehicles. Somebody, (20)I remembered, stuck up his hand and was hit on his hand by a rifle butt by someone. • Q.: From the sound of the people outside the vehicles, could you get a rough idea of the number of Serb soldiers outside the vehicles? (25)
• A.: No, we couldn't tell the number of those
(5) • Q.: Let me go back to what you were telling us earlier. You heard Serb soldiers asking at one of your neighbouring trucks if there was anyone from a particular village. Can you tell us about that? • A.: Well, they said, "If so and so appears," they (10)would ask for the man's name, surname, and father's name, and then they would take the man to a garage, on which the door was open. At that moment we would hear thuds and people screaming. The man would start to scream, to cry, and then they would shout at him, they (15)would yell at him, and then we could hear fire from an automatic weapon, and then everything would go quiet. This went on throughout the night. • Q.: Again, I know this is very difficult to estimate, but can you give us any idea of how many (20)different Muslim men you heard that were put in a situation where they were taken out to this area nearby you and where you could hear these sounds?
• A.: We were some 30 metres away from the garage
and we were able to observe more during the night. But
(25)I couldn't tell you the number because they kept taking
• Q.: How was it that you were able to see more (5)during the night? • A.: Well, it was because, for example, those who were in the middle could raise, a bit, their heads, they could observe things, but those who were next to the sides of the trailer couldn't. (10) • Q.: Were you able to raise your head at all and look out? • A.: No, I couldn't. I just had a quick look. I would stick out my head like this [indicates] because the area in the front was a little elevated, and that's (15)how I was able to see what was happening. But I didn't dare to stand up completely. • Q.: Did any soldiers come to your truck that evening, that night?
• A.: Yes, on two occasions. First, when a soldier
(20)came, he asked for a man and a man replied. He was
from the municipality of Srebrenica; he was not from
the village they were asking about, so they told him to
sit down.
Then two other men were taken off our
(25)trailer, most probably because they had been
• Q.: Your brother wasn't in the back of the vehicle with you. (10) • A.: No, he wasn't there at all. • Q.: Where did you lose track of your brother? • A.: At the spot where we had gathered while we were sitting on the meadow, and I haven't heard of him ever since. (15) • Q.: Did you know any of the men that were in the back of the trailer with you, that spent the night in Bratunac? • A.: I knew only one of them by name. He was also from the Srebrenica municipality. There was nobody (20)from my area, actually. • Q.: Can you tell us his name? • A.: Yes, I know his name. He was Mehmed, Mehmed Began. • Q.: When the morning came, what happened? (25)
• A.: When it dawned, we heard them yelling and
• Q.: What else happened? • A.: At that point the trucks started to move, and (5)they were stopped in the outskirts of Bratunac. • Q.: I'm going to take you briefly back to the meadow. Did they give you any food while you were in that meadow on July 13th? • A.: No, they didn't give us any food. They only (10)brought water, but it was our people who actually went to get water. But we were not given any food at all. • Q.: When you were put in the back of this coal truck, were you given any water back there? • A.: Yes. On the following day, the driver who (15)was driving us gave us something, and also a young boy from Bratunac. • Q.: Had you been given any food before they gave you water in Bratunac? • A.: No. No. (20) • Q.: Was the date you surrendered on the meadow July 13th, or do you know the dates? • A.: The 12th. I think -- the 11th, the 12th. Yes, it was on the 13th, that was the date. It was a Thursday. (25)
• Q.: What happened when you were stopped outside
• A.: They told us that they were waiting for UNPROFOR. So we waited for at least two hours there, (5)on that spot, and a group of Serbian elderly men passed by. Some of them were wearing uniforms; some didn't. They saw some people and they said, "Well, these guys are ours." They probably wanted to take it out on us. • Q.: How were you able to see these elderly men? (10) • A.: Well, they were standing on a truck, which was an open kind of truck. It was a FAP truck. It used to be a Yugoslav-produced car. • Q.: What finally happened? • A.: Well, finally after that, after we had been (15)there for about two hours, the column continued in the direction of Konjevic Polje, Drinjaca, and Zvornik, and further on in the direction of Tuzla. • Q.: Did your vehicle turn off as it was driving on the road towards Tuzla? (20) • A.: When we got to Zvornik -- let me stop a little. After we had left Divic, after we had come out of a tunnel, we were told that an UNPROFOR personnel carrier had joined us. It was near the village of Divic. (25)
• Q.: Divic is just south of Zvornik.
• Q.: Who told you this? • A.: The soldiers who saw it. At that moment I (5)didn't see the APC. • Q.: Were there any soldiers in the back of the vehicle with you at any time during this trek from the meadow up, now, to Divic? • A.: No, there were no soldiers. (10) • Q.: So where were these soldiers that actually talked to you and told you about the APC? • A.: Not the soldiers but people who were with us. People talked amongst themselves. • Q.: So somebody saw an APC and you were talking (15)amongst yourselves. • A.: Yes. • Q.: When you went on the road towards Tuzla, can you tell us where you went?
• A.: When we went towards Tuzla, we drove for a
(20)short while, and then at one point the truck turned
right. I was a little bit familiar with the area, I
knew it somewhat better, and I realised that it was
moving in the direction of the village of Grbovci. The
vehicles were travelling at a very slow place. One by
(25)one they reached a schoolyard.
(5) • A.: Yes. When we left Bratunac, we reached a location which is called Avdagina Njive. We climbed a hill, and then when we were on top of the hill, we could actually see how long the column of the vehicles was. (10) • Q.: Were you able to make out how many vehicles were there or how long the column was? • A.: The column was a longish one, but I cannot tell you exactly how many vehicles there were. • Q.: Can you give us a rough estimate or a rough (15)estimate of how many -- • A.: Well, I cannot tell you how long it was, but there were at least 30 vehicles, large vehicles. At least 30 of them. • Q.: What sort of vehicles? (20) • A.: There were trucks, trailer trucks, buses. Most of them were really large vehicles. The idea was to transport as many people as possible. MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, we're at the school. It may be a good time to take a break. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes, this
--- Recess taken at 1.43 p.m. --- On resuming at 2.00 p.m. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] We will resume with our hearing. Mr. McCloskey, you may go on. MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. • Q.: Witness L, your vehicle had just arrived at a (10)schoolyard in a place you were familiar with, you called it Grbovci. What happened when your vehicle came to a stop at the schoolyard?
• A.: When we reached the schoolyard, I noticed the
UN APC. The letter that was written on it was either
(15)"C" or "S". It was something else instead of
UNPROFOR. There was only one sign on the APC and there
were two soldiers wearing UNPROFOR uniforms.
There was also a civilian of 50 to 55 years
of age who was walking around with them like an
(20)interpreter. These soldiers didn't address us. They
were carrying automatic rifles in their hands.
So we entered the compound, the yard, and
some 30 Serb soldiers were standing there and they
ordered us off the trucks. They told us to raise our
(25)hands up and to run towards the entrance of the
• Q.: Let me interrupt you a second. • A.: Yes, please. • Q.: Do you know about what time your vehicle reached the schoolyard? (20) • A.: It was in the early hours of the afternoon. I didn't have a watch, but it could have been around 1.00, in view of the time when we left Bratunac.
• Q.: These soldiers that were outside the school,
you said there were about 30 of them, what were they
(25)wearing?
(5) • Q.: You said when you -- what part of the building did you go into when you got into the school building? • A.: I sat down in the part of the building which was to the left side of one of the entrances. (10) • Q.: What sort of room was this? • A.: It was a gymnasium. • Q.: You say when you arrived it was half full. Could you give us a rough estimate of how many people "half full" was? (15) • A.: Well, it was full. At least 700 or 800 people must have been there. • Q.: When you first got into the gym, did you see any Serb soldiers inside of the gym? No? • A.: No, they were not there. They were only (20)standing at the entrance. MR. McCLOSKEY: Could we show the witness -- we have four exhibits, 19/3, 19/2, 19/5, and 19/8. If we could show him those four exhibits in that order, 19/3 first. (25)
• Q.: You've had a chance to look at some
• A.: Yes, that's right. MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could start with 19/3 (5)on the ELMO. • Q.: If you could take a look at this picture. It's a wintertime picture so it's a little different. But do you recognise the building that's depicted in that picture? (10) • A.: Yes, I do. • Q.: With the pointer, can you point out, if you see it, the area where you entered the building. • A.: I think it was roughly here [indicates] This is the gym [indicates], and this is an additional (15)adjacent building, and this is where we entered. We got to this smaller building. MR. McCLOSKEY: Okay. For the record, when he pointed to the gym, it was the large building in the back. And there is a smaller building in front that he (20)also made reference to and he said they entered in the area where there appears to be a circle. • Q.: If you could now look at 19/2. Do you recognise this photo?
• A.: Yes, I do. This is also the gym. This is
(25)the small building with the door in it
[indicates]
• A.: It's here [indicates] MR. McCLOSKEY: Indicating the circle on the (5)photo. • Q.: All right. Could you now look at 19/5. Do you recognise this picture?
• A.: Yes, I do. This is the inside of the gym • Q.: What, in particular, about this photo do you recognise from your experience that day in the gym? • A.: I recognise the place by these windows and by the way the inside of the gym looks, because the (15)picture was taken inside. MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could hold off on that last photo for a minute.
• Q.: Now, when you arrived inside the gymnasium,
where did you go? Actually, let me stop there and ask
(20)you a question before that. I'm sorry.
You said that prior to going inside the
gymnasium, they made you take off your coat and put it
in a pile of clothes. Did you see the soldiers
requiring anybody else to take off coats or clothes and
(25)put it in this pile?
• Q.: How big of a pile of clothes was it where you put your jacket? (5) • A.: It was quite big, maybe enough for a passenger vehicle trailer roughly. • Q.: When you got inside the gymnasium, where did they put you? • A.: I sat left to the entrance, near the opening (10)where they took us out of the hall later on. • Q.: What happened when you were put in this gym with all these other people?
• A.: When we all entered the hall and no one else
was coming in, we sat there for about two or three
(15)hours, perhaps, and then some soldiers came and we were
ordered to keep silent. So we stopped talking.
Then one of those men at the door, I don't
know who it was, he ordered four rows at the end of the
hall to get up. These were mostly elderly men. Then
(20)they ordered them to turn around to the right and face
the wall. This went on roughly until they reached my
part, and they told us to turn our backs to the exit
and to face the wall next to us. Then one of the
soldiers said, "These people must not be killed." Then
(25)this other Serb soldier said, "And who says so?" And
• Q.: I'm sorry, let me interrupt you one second. Who said "These people must not be killed"? • A.: One of us prisoners. (5) • Q.: Okay. Then what happened after he said that? • A.: Then the Serb soldier said, "And who said so?" Then this man repeated what he said. He said, "We'll see," and he told him to get out. The man went out. We heard a shot. The man started screaming. (10)Another shot was heard, and the man fell quiet. Then they took out another man from the other end of the gym. Again, we heard shots and that was all. • Q.: Do you know why they took out the second man? (15) • A.: I don't know. • Q.: Okay. Let me go back to the time that you were first put inside the gymnasium with the other people. Your truckload of men, were they put in the gym with you, the people that you arrived to the school (20)with? • A.: Yes, they were. • Q.: So did people continue to arrive inside the gymnasium after your group was put in the group or was your group the last group? (25)
• A.: Our group wasn't the last group. There were
• Q.: How long after you first arrived did Muslim men continue to be brought into the school, into the (5)gym? • A.: This may have lasted five or ten or fifteen minutes. The vehicles came one after another. It didn't take hours. • Q.: How full did the gym get when the process of (10)bringing Muslim men in finally finished? • A.: It was full. Maybe there would have been two metres that were empty where the four boys were sitting. • Q.: Can you give us an estimate of about how many (15)Muslim men were crowded inside this gym that day? • A.: According to my estimate, about 2.000. • Q.: How were you arranged? Were you sitting or standing or lying down? • A.: We were sitting, but our knees were touching (20)and so were our shoulders, next to one another. • Q.: During this process that they were bringing in more Muslim men into the gym, could you see any Serb soldiers inside the gym?
• A.: They didn't enter the gym; they only stood at
(25)the door. And sometimes they would shoot into the wall
• Q.: Do you know why they would sometimes shoot into the wall or the ceiling? • A.: Because it was very warm, people were (5)demanding water. They couldn't bring in a lot of water; they brought us only a little. So people were making noises. • Q.: Did you get any food while you were inside this gym? (10) • A.: No, we didn't. Only water. • Q.: Did you get enough water? • A.: No. • Q.: Was there any place to use the toilet? • A.: Yes, there was a bucket that was used as a (15)toilet in the right-hand corner. • Q.: You've told us about the man that made the comment about don't kill people, and that he was taken out. What happened after that? • A.: After that they stopped bringing us water. (20)And then the same thing continued, the same situation. The Serb soldiers were at the door. People were addressing them "Soldiers", but they would answer, "We're not soldiers; we are Karadzic's young Chetniks," because they were very young. (25)
• Q.: Could you make out anything from their
• A.: No. Most of them were bareheaded. They had camouflage uniforms like the other Serb soldiers. (5) • Q.: Then what happened? • A.: After that, at the opening to the left, there were two Serb soldiers standing there and a Serb woman in uniform. They brought a pile of rags with which they tied our eyes. (10) • Q.: Can you tell me, do you recall about what time they first brought this pile of rags? • A.: I don't remember, but I think it was shortly after these Serb officers, or whatever, had arrived, I don't know, those who had ordered those (15)rearrangements. There were these pieces of cloth; they were about 60 centimetres long, five or six centimetres wide; they were mostly patterned so you couldn't see through them. • Q.: How many were there, or how big a pile of (20)rags were there? • A.: Like a sack full, shall we say, if you were to pour the contents out of a sack on the ground. • Q.: Did it look like it would be enough to blindfold everybody in the gym? (25)
• A.: Probably. Most probably.
• Q.: Could you take a look at that photograph and tell us if you recognise anything in there. (5)
• A.: I recognise it. This is the exit MR. McCLOSKEY: When he said "This is the exit," he pointed to the doorway where number 2 is marked with an arrow. (10) • Q.: Now, when you say "That's the exit" -- • A.: Yes. • Q.: -- is that where the Serb soldiers were standing, and the woman you mentioned earlier? • A.: Yes. (15) • Q.: What occurred when these soldiers and the woman soldier were standing by that exit and they brought in all these strips of cloth? • A.: Then they assigned one to blindfold the people. (20) • Q.: Assigned one. Who? A Serb or a Muslim? • A.: A Muslim. • Q.: Then what happened?
• A.: Then what happened was that once we were
blindfolded we had to leave this room and form a letter
(25)"L". This woman of Serb ethnicity, in a camouflage
• Q.: Did you see people get blindfolded in front (5)of you that left through this exit? • A.: I did. • Q.: Did they come back? • A.: No. • Q.: Could you tell where they were going? (10) • A.: People asked, "Where are you taking these people?" and they said, "We're taking them to the Bijeljina Logor, to Bijeljina, to a camp," but it wasn't a camp. • Q.: How long did it take until it was your turn (15)to get blindfolded and go out this exit? • A.: At least three hours, if not more. • Q.: After you were blindfolded and given the water, what happened to you? • A.: We got into a Tamic brand truck, with signs (20)either of the police or the army. I could see through the blindfold. They were Cyrillic registration plates; they were not civilian registration plates. • Q.: How well were you able to see through the blindfold? (25)
• A.: One could see about 50 per cent and more,
• Q.: Can you describe to the Court what a TAM truck is and what this TAM truck looked like? (5) • A.: It's a small truck, of two and a half tonnes carrying capacity, manufactured in Slovenia, during the former Yugoslavia. • Q.: What does the back of the truck look like? • A.: It has sides of some 40 to 50 centimetres (10)which can be closed, and there was canvas over it. • Q.: Was there any place to sit? • A.: There were two benches. When the benches were full, then people sat in between the two benches. • Q.: Where was this truck parked in relation to (15)where the school exit was? • A.: Next to the room where they were blindfolding us. There was a kind of obstacle in front of the truck. • Q.: Were you taken directly from the room onto (20)the truck? • A.: Yes, directly. • Q.: Could you tell how many other Muslim men were put in the back of this truck with you?
• A.: There were up to 30, maybe more, because
(25)eight to ten men could sit on the benches and the space
• Q.: So did they put men in the spaces in between the benches? (5) • A.: Yes. Yes. • Q.: How could you tell that if you were blindfolded? • A.: When we were in the truck, we took off the blindfolds because we believed we were going to (10)Bijeljina. We thought they wouldn't mistreat us. And when the engine got started again, we put back our blindfolds. • Q.: Were there any Serb soldiers in the back of this truck with you, crowded full of Muslim men? (15) • A.: I didn't see any. • Q.: Can you tell us where the truck went, as far as you could make out? • A.: The truck drove for a very short while. According to my judgement, it took a left turn to (20)a macadam road, because we could tell by the shaking in the truck. • Q.: It took a left turn from the macadam road onto a bumpier road?
• A.: No, from the asphalt road onto the macadam
(25)road.
• A.: Yes. • Q.: What happened when you got on the macadam (5)road? • A.: When we got there the truck stopped, and we immediately heard people talking behind our backs. We noticed some dead people as we were looking down towards the ground. Through the cloth we could see (10)some dead people. • Q.: Could you just tell us what you yourself were able to see, looking down through your blindfold, as you were getting off the truck. • A.: I personally saw a dead man. I'm only (15)talking about myself; I'm not saying what other people saw. I saw this dead man in front of me. • Q.: What happened next? • A.: Then they lined us up and they started with bursts of fire from my right-hand side, and then men (20)were falling to the left. Men brought me down, so that a man covered this part of my face [indicates], and he fell before me and my arm was over his chest. That was probably the last shot fired in a standing position. • Q.: Were you hit? (25)
• A.: No.
• A.: Yes, this one who was on top of me, because on my back there was a bloodstain from this man who was on top of me, and the blood was dripping from him onto (5)me. • Q.: Did you feel him die, or did he die instantly? • A.: I didn't. But one man, I don't know whether he was in my group or a group after me, he said, (10)"Finish me off," and then this Serb soldier said, "Slowly. Slowly." • Q.: What else happened as you were lying there amongst this carnage? • A.: When we had all fallen to the ground, then (15)one of them came and fired single shots at the people who were probably moving. Then a stone injured me slightly that probably jumped off of the road. It was a small injury and it didn't hurt. If it had been a bullet, it would have been more painful. (20) • Q.: Then what happened? • A.: Then those Serb soldiers were shouting, "Let's take their watches off their hands so we can get beer instead," but another one said, "Don't," and they didn't. And I didn't have a watch anyway. (25)
• Q.: Then what happened?
(5) • Q.: Were you able to see the arrival of other trucks or were you still blindfolded at this point? • A.: No, I still had the blindfold, and I was lying on my stomach. • Q.: Did you look up at all at this point, when (10)the other trucks started arriving? • A.: I didn't. I didn't dare because I didn't know what was behind my back. I didn't dare move. • Q.: Do you know how long this process, where trucks arrived and you could hear gunfire, how long (15)that kept going? • A.: It went on late into the night, but the exact hour I'm not able to tell. But it went on into the night. MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, the story, of (20)course, goes on a little further. Do you wish to continue the story tomorrow or try to go further today?
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] How much
more time do you need, roughly, Mr. McCloskey, to
(25)finish with this witness?
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. In that case, we will finish for today and we'll resume (5)tomorrow at 9.30. I think the parties already have a proposed timetable for our Status Conference for Thursday. Therefore, I'd like you to look at that proposal closely. (10)I'm telling the Defence that we have considered your motion. We're going to have a month and a half now, and then after that we will have more time. And I think that will correspond to the amount of time you have requested. But in any case we will (15)reconsider that at the Status Conference on Thursday, and all I'm asking is that you look at that proposal closely. Therefore, Witness, you are going to stay tomorrow, when we will resume. (20)So we will resume the hearing tomorrow at 9.30. --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.34 p.m., to be reconvened on Wednesday, the 12th day of April, 2000, (25)the 9.30 a.m. |
