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(1)Friday, 7th April 2000 [Open session]
--- Upon commencing at 10.07 a.m. (5)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Good
morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning,
interpreters. Can you hear me? Yes. I think they
hear. I can hear them as well. Good morning,
technicians; good morning, court reporters, legal
(10)officers, whom we often forget; good morning, counsel
for the Prosecution; good morning, counsel for the
Defence; good morning, General Krstic; good morning,
everyone.
I owe you an explanation. Yesterday I told
(15)you that the hearing would be held in Courtroom II. I
know that the technicians have been working all night
so that we could be here this morning, but these
frequent changes add up to the stress that we already
have to deal with due to the nature of our work. All
(20)other stresses should be, therefore, avoided.
At any rate, let me present my apologies to
you and the public in general. The intention was to
enable us to work in the best possible conditions.
Be that as it may, Mr. Harmon, could you tell
(25)us what is the situation with witnesses this morning.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Mr. Harmon,
before we proceed, let me ask you one other question.
Exhibit 32C, Prosecutor's 32C, the French translation
(25)is not complete, and we had 25 minutes of transcript,
MR. HARMON: Unfortunately, it's not a sample. It's the official transcript of the Tribunal (5)from the hearing that we took from -- it's the final transcription. I didn't know it was missing 25 minutes until one of the interpreters kindly informed me at the conclusion of the hearing that it was missing 25 minutes. So we merely introduced the official (10)transcript. We will now -- we now find it's missing 25 minutes. We will endeavour to get those 25 minutes translated and we'll submit that at a later date. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Okay. As I told you, Mr. Harmon, I shared your view. At the same (15)time, I was happy, but also a bit disappointed, because when this comes to a French translation, it seems that we always have problems. So, Mr. Harmon, you will prepare a complete version for us, and then afterwards it will be admitted (20)into evidence. MR. HARMON: That's correct.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you
very much. Thank you for your attention.
Mr. McCloskey, I believe, is going to take
(25)the floor.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic, do you have any objections? MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] For the (10)record, Mr. President, the Defence has no objections whatsoever regarding the issue mentioned by Mr. McCloskey. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Mr. Petrusic. (15)Mr. Usher or Mr. Registrar, can you please lower down the blinds. After five minutes, we will put them up again, after the witness has been brought into the courtroom.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.]
(20)Mr. Dubuisson, the usher has not gone to Bosnia to
fetch the witness, I hope. Oh. He's coming.
WITNESS: WITNESS I (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Can you
THE WITNESS: Yes, I can. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning. Sir, we will call you Witness I, for your (5)protection, because you have asked for certain protective measures which have been accorded to you. So you will be referred to as Witness I. First of all, could you please read the solemn declaration that the usher will give you. (10) THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you. You may be seated now. Witness I, could you please (15)have a look at this piece of paper that the registrar will show you, and could you please confirm if the name written on it is your name or not? Could you please answer simply by saying yes or no. • A.: Yes. (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well then. So on this piece of paper it was your name that was written. Are you comfortable, sir? • A.: Yes, I am.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] I should
(25)first like to thank you, Witness I, for coming to the
(5) MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you. • EXAMINED by Mr. McCloskey: • Q.: Good morning, Witness I. How are you? • A.: Good morning. Fine. • Q.: Okay. I'll be asking you a few questions (10)like the President said, and if you can just do your best to answer, and you may notice that I interrupt you occasionally, and we'll eventually be able to get through your story. Okay? • A.: Yes. (15) • Q.: Can you first tell us where you were born? • A.: I was born in the Srebrenica municipality. • Q.: And what is your birth date? • A.: 18th of October. • Q.: Of what year? (20) • A.: [redacted] • Q.: And where did you spend most of your life? • A.: Most of my life I spent in Srebrenica. I would venture outside Srebrenica a little bit because of my work. (25)
• Q.: And what was your work?
• Q.: And in July of 1995, where were you living? • A.: I was living in Srebrenica. (5) • Q.: And on July 11th of 1995, what did you do? • A.: It was at that time that Srebrenica fell, and I went down to Potocari. • Q.: Did you take family members of yours with you? (10) • A.: Yes, I did, my family. • Q.: Can you tell us -- can you describe which family members you went with to Potocari? • A.: My wife was with me, my daughter. I had four grandchildren and a daughter-in-law. (15) • Q.: Roughly, how old were your grandchildren at the time? • A.: Well, the youngest one, who had just been born, was very small. He was born as soon as the war began. (20) • Q.: And how about the oldest one? About how old was that grandchild? • A.: Well, the oldest one is now in the seventh grade of the elementary school, so he's 14 now.
• Q.: Okay. And did you have two sons at the
(25)time?
• Q.: And have you seen them since that time that they went through the woods? • A.: No, I haven't. I just know that the youngest (5)one went to the hospital, took out all the wounded persons to UNPROFOR, put them on a truck, and then afterwards he left and went through the woods. • Q.: Did you find that out by one of the wounded people that he helped? (10) • A.: Yes, from one of the wounded people I learned about that. He later on came to Batkovic. And there were many others who remained, who did not arrive, but they had been registered prior to that. • Q.: So that first night in Potocari, did you (15)spend the night outside one of the factories with your family? • A.: Yes, I did. I was within the compound, but I couldn't actually get inside the factory. They were crowded. There were several factories there, and I was (20)actually outside in the area surrounding the factory, not far from the road. • Q.: So was that first night July 11th? • A.: Yes, it was, the first night.
• Q.: Now, on July 12th, can you tell us what
(25)happened on July 12th, as you recall it?
• Q.: And what happened after that? • A.: After that, they came to us and they kept (10)walking around amongst the people until the afternoon that day. At one point they started taking people, one by one, away. • Q.: When you say "they," who are you talking about? (15) • A.: Serb soldiers. • Q.: And where did you spend that night of the 12th? • A.: I spent it outside in the open, also in Potocari. And on that day, they brought some bread in (20)a little TAM truck. He also distributed some sweets and recorded everything with a camera. They wanted to show the world how humane they were, whereas while they were committing genocide, they were not filming anything. (25)
• Q.: So again when you say "they," you're talking
• A.: Serb soldiers. They were filming while they were throwing bread onto the people and distributing sweets, and there was a presenter there who was filming (5)everything. • Q.: So were you present in the crowd and saw the Serb soldiers doing this? • A.: Yes. I saw it and I managed to catch a loaf of bread, because in Srebrenica, I had nothing to take (10)with me, so I wanted to give this food to my grandchildren so they could eat something. I saw everything with my own eyes. • Q.: What else did you see that day? • A.: I saw a number of dogs, maybe eight or nine, (15)German Shepherds, walking around with soldiers amongst the people. • Q.: And what else?
• A.: They were taking some men away, saying that
they wanted to have a chat with them. Maybe they were
(20)their neighbours. I don't know. So they kept walking
around a little bit, and they took them away. But in
the evening, they started taking people away in greater
numbers.
At one point, people started to scream, and
(25)everybody stood up. Afterwards, we heard rumours that
• Q.: Again, when you say "them" -- • A.: Serbs soldiers. Women were screaming, children were screaming, everybody screamed. And a little later, maybe 15 minutes later, you could hear (10)people screaming and moaning from the outside. Yes, they were moaning. Occasionally you would hear a shot, but sometimes not, and then everything would be silent for a while, and then nothing. • Q.: And did this go on much of the night? (15) • A.: It lasted all night. And there were also crazy women, women who had gone round the bend there out of fear there, those whose nerves were not as strong and poor health. And I heard, I didn't see, but I heard that there were also people who hanged (20)themselves out of fear. • Q.: Now, the next day, what did you do? July 13th.
• A.: The 13th of July, when we were to go out,
there were lots of people, and there was a crowd, and
(25)people were so packed that they barely made it to the
• Q.: Who did the separating of men from women and children? • A.: The Serb troops. • Q.: And were you trying to get you and your (10)family onto the buses that morning? • A.: I tried. I followed in their steps because they were separating. I couldn't. I was carrying water to have for my children so that on the road they could have some refreshment, because there were people (15)who were passing out. A Serb soldier grabbed me by the shoulder and said, "Here." I said, "Let me see off my children, at least, to the trucks." He says, "You can't." So I gave that canister to a grandchild. And the Serb (20)soldier grabbed me by the shoulder, and I had to go into the house there. • Q.: Why did you want to put your family and yourself on the bus that morning? Why did you want to leave? (25)
• A.: I wanted to go to Tuzla, to the free
• Q.: Why didn't you want to leave your home that (5)day? • A.: Left because I had to. Shells were pounding for six days. On the seventh day I had to leave. The troops had left, leaving UNPROFOR withdrawing. Nobody says he's resisting, they're simply retreating inside (10)the town. Unfortunately, and much to the disgrace of everybody, there was no support from any side. So I had to leave. • Q.: I'd like to show Witness I the Exhibit 5/17, (15)if we could. Now, Witness I, I've showed you that photograph before. Does that building in that photograph look familiar to you? • A.: It looks -- it could have been here, this (20)house, the house which was full. And when it filled up, the buses came, after perhaps an hour, and we sat in the bus and started for Bratunac.
• Q.: Okay. Before we get to the bus, I want to
ask you: Could you point on this picture where you
(25)first went inside this house?
• Q.: Okay. Showing that to be the right side of (5)the picture. And when you went inside the house, where did you go? • A.: When I entered the building, we were down on the ground floor and sitting down. The door was open. Others were driven in, and I saw them go up to the (10)upper floor. A Serb soldier came and said, "Anybody got any marks? Give them over here." A man had them. He put his hand in his pocket and said, "Hurry up, hurry up, before somebody else comes." And he left. (15) • Q.: Were there other Serb soldiers in the house with you? • A.: Well, there were those who were escorting from the road, from the barricade into the house. So that happened to be in the house and come to the house (20)and drive in other people. • Q.: And how long were you in the house, until you were taken out to the buses? • A.: About an hour, until enough people gathered. Half an hour, an hour, something like that. (25)
• Q.: How full was the house right before you were
• A.: Downstairs on the ground floor, the room where I was, it was full. Well, now, how many there were on the upper floor, I couldn't say, but there were (5)quite a lot of people there too. • Q.: Did you see anything bad happen to anybody while you were in that house, besides what you've described? • A.: Well, there, there -- no, not in the house. (10)I didn't see there, but I heard. I heard that some had been driven out of the house somewhere uphill, but I didn't see. • Q.: Okay. So where were you taken when you were taken out of the house? (15) • A.: They took us to buses and to Bratunac, the old school, the one that had been vacated. At the time, I didn't know what its name was, but the name of the school is Vuk Karadzic, some old hero. • Q.: So did you go to Bratunac by bus or by truck? (20) • A.: Bus. • Q.: And was your bus full of men? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And were those men that had been in the White House with you? (25)
• A.: Yes, from there, from the house. They were
• Q.: Were there any soldiers on the bus with you that took you to the school in Bratunac? (5) • A.: Well, there were two soldiers, as a rule. • Q.: Were they armed? • A.: Yes; automatic weapons. And when we got to Bratunac and went into the school, then they forced us -- we discarded all the bags, all the food that we (10)had. It all remained outside. • Q.: Did they force you to discard the bags and the food that you had? • A.: They made us do it. And whoever had a watch, a tobacco box, or a nail, or a knife, a razor blade, (15)they forbid us strictly to have any of those. So that I took off my coat, left it next to the bag. I just left it all and that was it. • Q.: You were there at that school for two nights? • A.: Yes, two nights since we arrived. (20) • Q.: Can you tell us what happened to you and others at that school during those days and nights?
• A.: It happened instantly. A Serb, sort of
policeman, came and began to beat a man, and with his
rifle at that, hitting him on the head from above.
(25)Blood poured down his face and his shirt. So he stayed
• Q.: How many people were in the room where you were kept? • A.: Well, there could have been -- the room was (20)largish and it was crammed. There could have been perhaps about 250, about that in that room. And in other rooms, how many there were there, I don't know.
• Q.: Was there anything distinctive about what the
soldiers or Serb personnel were wearing that were doing
(25)this to you and your fellow Muslims?
• Q.: About how many soldiers or Serb personnel were around or inside that school during the period (10)that you were kept there? • A.: Well, there could have been eight or ten, thereabouts. They were taking out and torturing. Sometimes a voice would die out. You couldn't hear it from the tortures. And sometimes you could even hear (15)bursts of fire, shots, after those cries of pain. • Q.: Were you allowed to go to the toilet sometimes? • A.: We had to ask. They were in the passage, and they escorted us if we wanted to go. But as we went (20)there and came back, they were sometimes known to hit you on the back with the rifles, so that many people suffered and tried to contain themselves because they were afraid of those blows and tried not to ask to go out. (25)
• Q.: So what did they have to do?
(10) • Q.: Did they give you some water over that two-day period, the soldiers? • A.: Soldiers, they gave water, but there wasn't enough of it. Had they not given some water, half of those people would have died there on the spot. Such a (15)horrible thirst. I've never known that it could be so bad. • Q.: Did they give you any food ever during that time in Bratunac?
• A.: I was about two nights in Bratunac, and when
(20)we started, they said, "You're going to Tuzla." Then
they gave us a bit of bread on the bus and some
biscuits. It was so dry, so dry, as if it was just
nothing but flour or sand. It just crumbled it was so
dry. Our mouths' dried up. I put it in my mouth and I
(25)tried to eat. I tried to chew for about 15 minutes
• Q.: Were there soldiers on the buses that they put you on? • A.: Yes, there were. At times one, at times two, because with those buses, they were getting a ride. (10)Sometimes buses would stop and they would get off and walk. We headed through Kravica to Tuzla. They said, "We want to go." But when we got to Konjevic Polje, we started in the opposite direction, towards Zvornik. As far as I can remember, we crossed the (15)Drina there into Serbia. We went through Serbia as far as Loznica, and there they again took us back into Bosnia, so that we travelled through Bosnia, and when we came close to Pilica, the bus stopped there. We were there for a long time. There were seven buses. I (20)didn't count them, but another man counted them and he told me there were seven. • Q.: Excuse me one sec. Were all those buses filled with men?
• A.: Full, yes. Sitting -- we were sitting and
(25)dared not look anywhere. That is what they asked of
THE INTERPRETER: Your microphone, please. MR. McCLOSKEY: • Q.: Who killed the man that tried to run away? (20) • A.: Serb soldiers who were guards; guards. • Q.: Were they the ones that were on your bus or from other buses?
• A.: Well, in our bus, as they took that man out,
so the soldiers came off too. They came out, this man
(25)was taken out, and this one moved here, moved there,
• Q.: Okay. When you got to Pilica, where did you go? (5) • A.: There, as we went, we turned left. As far as I can remember, it was the school, quite large. Whether two or three-storeys high, I wouldn't know to say. We were so afraid and dared not look around or observe because our lives were at stake non-stop. And (10)Serb troops immediately began to drive out from rooms, from my room, from other rooms, and you could only hear behind the school wails, cries for help, curses, bursts of fire. Sometimes you wouldn't even hear a shot, simply life would die out and that would be that. (15)As we were going into the school and then up the stairs, we who were of advanced age, almost all of us had some caps on. And up the stairs they forced us and ordered, "Off with your caps," so that we all had to throw off our caps on the stairs. And I thought (20)there, "There must be some Generals around if we have to take off our caps." • Q.: Were you wearing a cap today like the one they made you take off at that time? • A.: Yes, I was. I brought it here. (25)
• Q.: Could you just show it to us, for a second?
• A.: Yes, I'll do that. So this is the kind of cap that we used to wear, all of us [indicates], and we had to throw them on the stairs and that's where they (5)remained. • Q.: How crowded was the room that you were put in? • A.: Well, I couldn't tell you exactly. There could have been around 250 people in it, but it was (10)packed. It was overcrowded. If you stood up, after that you could no longer sit down. There was no room to sit down. • Q.: Were there Muslim men in other parts of the school, could you tell? (15) • A.: Yes, there were, because I heard voices from the other door, and I heard people talking from other rooms as well. As to how many rooms there were, the crowded ones, I don't know. • Q.: Roughly, how old were the people, the Muslim (20)men, who were at this school? • A.: Let me tell you. They were from the age of 14, let's say, until 80. I am pretty sure about that. People who were much older than myself. I also noticed a man who was mute, deaf. (25)
• Q.: Was there ever a time that the soldiers said
• A.: Well, yes. They said something. At one point they came in, and they asked if anybody was 15 or 16 years of age. And there were very young boys there, (5)maybe 14. You could tell that, because they really looked young. Schoolchildren, actually. So he said, "Let me see how many you are." So they gathered at one point and lined up. I think that there were 12 of them. And the man said, "Abdic needs guys like you. (10)They should go to him." So I don't know how many such young boys there were in other rooms, but in our room there were 12 of them. They were taken out, but what they did with them, I don't know. I don't know whether they ended up (15)in a camp, whether they were killed later on or indeed sent to Abdic. I don't know. • Q.: Who, to your understanding, was this "Abdic" that this Serb soldier mentioned? • A.: Abdic -- I forgot his last name. He defected (20)to Croatia. He helped both Croats and Serbs, and he hid Muslims. He worked against them. Such was the policy at that time. He was against Muslims, and he was one of them.
• Q.: Could you tell how many soldiers were around
(25)or in that school guarding you people?
(5) MR. McCLOSKEY: • Q.: Was Mr. Abdic a Muslim? • A.: Well, yes, he was a Muslim, but I'm not sure. Maybe he was from a mixed marriage, as far as I know. He was a turncoat. I don't know what actually (10)happened between those politicians. • Q.: Could you tell how many Serb soldiers there were guarding you at this school? • A.: Well, approximately there could have been between eight and ten soldiers standing at each spot. (15)Some of them were guarding us and others were taking people out and torturing them. So this is how they would split. This is how it happened. • Q.: When you say "each spot," what spots do you mean? (20) • A.: I mean spots around Bratunac while we were there, and also while we were in Pilica, where people were being taken out from the buses, and I'm also referring to the places where people were shot down.
• Q.: Okay. Well, I just want to concentrate right
(25)now on Pilica. Do you know how many soldiers, roughly,
• A.: About eight or ten. I cannot tell you exactly, because they were not standing in one single group. I could not count them. Some of them were (5)outside, some of them were in the room or in one of the corridors. There could have been approximately ten of them. If they had been in a line, I would have counted them and I would have known exactly, but I cannot give you the exact number. (10) • Q.: Were they armed? • A.: Yes. Yes, they were. Most of them had automatic weapons. • Q.: Can you describe how they were dressed, the Serb soldiers at Pilica, at the school? (15) • A.: As far as I know, they were dressed in some kind of multicolored clothing. That's what they wore. But, you know, I cannot really make a difference. I cannot distinguish between their clothing because I was terrified, and then, you know, it was five years ago. (20)I just know that their clothes were multicolored. • Q.: Do you recall how long -- how many nights you spent at that school in Pilica?
• A.: Hmm, whether it was one night or two -- I
forgot. I don't know whether I stayed there one night
(25)or two nights.
(5)
• A.: What happened on that day was the following:
There was one of us who asked for food, and the Serb
soldier said, "We don't have anything to eat. We
cannot give anything to you." So after awhile, he
brought a piece of bread. He was holding it in his
(10)hand. And everyone could get just about a mouthful of
bread but that was all. And he threw crumbles of that
piece of bread to the people, and then he left.
Whether he did the same in other rooms, I don't know.
We had nothing to eat. This was just harassing us.
(15)Then after that, on that day, they asked us
if we wanted to go to Sarajevo. They wanted to know if
anyone had any money, and they told us that the bus to
Sarajevo was 20 German marks. One of us, he said to a
man who was next to him, he said, "I have 100 German
(20)marks, so I think I can pay for five of us so we can
get out and reach the free territory." So whoever had
any money would go out as if to go to Sarajevo, to
board a bus to Sarajevo. But nobody had any money
left. At one point, apparently they said that those
(25)who didn't have any money could also leave. They told
• Q.: Excuse me, Witness I. Could I interrupt you for a second. MR. McCLOSKEY: Perhaps this would be a good (10)time to take a break, Mr. President, and we can continue after the break. • A.: Yes, we can do that. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. McCloskey, I agree with you. (15)Witness I, you also need to have some rest, and after the break you will continue. You've been telling us about some terrible stories. So we will have a 20-minute break now, and after that we will continue with hearing you. (20) --- Recess taken at 11.14 a.m. --- On resuming at 11.39 a.m.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well.
We shall resume.
Witness I, have you managed to have some
(25)rest?
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Did they offer you some coffee or something else to drink? THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes. I had a (5)Coke. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very good. Very good. Mr. McCloskey will continue now to ask you questions. Mr. McCloskey. (10) MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. • Q.: We had left off where someone had brought in some sheets of material and they were being torn into strips. Can you tell us who these people were that brought in these sheets of material? And then tell us (15)about what happened.
• A.: Serb soldiers brought that and gave them to
our two inmates to tear them up and then to tie people,
and so they tore them and tied us. But as they were
our folks, they did not tie us too tightly. But they
(20)tied our hands behind our backs.
As they tied, group after group left and went
outside. I offered my hands to be tied, but I was
surprised, why were they tying us if we were allegedly
going to freedom, to Tuzla?
(25)There was a neighbour with me and some six or
• Q.: Let me interrupt you for a moment. (15) • A.: Yes, you may. • Q.: On the way to the killing spot, were there any Serb soldiers on your bus, from the school to the killing spot that day? • A.: At least one. I know there was one. (20) • Q.: About how many soldiers, if you can tell us, were taking part in the executions or were at the execution fields? • A.: About seven, eight. Must have been about that. (25)
• Q.: And how many --
• Q.: Were you able to estimate how many dead (5)people were at that ground? • A.: I estimated between 1.000 and 1.500. • Q.: And what happened after all the shooting finally stopped? • A.: When the shooting stopped, they inquired, (10)every column, "Is there anyone alive?" Sometimes a voice is heard or two voices; sometimes nobody responds. And a soldier comes up, and just one bullet, bop, bop, and it's all over. And they go back for other columns and so on, until they killed another six (15)columns or so. Then they went to take a rest in the shade. Then I moved my limbs to see if I was wounded, and had failed to notice that in all that fright. But, fortunately, I wasn't wounded anywhere, (20)except that thing that grazed my arm. • Q.: Did you hear the Serb soldiers say anything to each other?
• A.: I didn't hear it. All I heard was shouting,
using foul language, making noise, but I couldn't get
(25)what they were talking about. What with fear, you
• Q.: Tell us how you were finally able to get away from this spot.
• A.: When they went to have a rest and when I
(5)couldn't hear the buses, seeing I wasn't wounded, I
tried then to get rid of those ties, and I managed to
get rid of the thing that was tied around my hands. As
I got rid of it, I again took it and put it back on my
hands. Then I was lying on my belly and thinking so I
(10)remembered they'd be back to see, and that it would be
better for me to be tied while I thought what to do.
All of a sudden, a patrol came up again, and
from what I could hear, there were five, judging by the
voices. As soon as they arrived, one of them shouted,
(15)"There's one fleeing. There's another one. Fire."
Bursts of fire, and they started up after them. One, I
could hear, stayed there, walking up and down.
Some time passed, and two of those came down
again, came back. But the one who had stayed behind
(20)asked, "Well?" And those said, "Well, no. Those two
have driven him away. He's hid somewhere. I don't
know if they will find them," which man that they'd
killed, the other one. And then one of them said to
the other one, "We've made a genocide like it was in
(25)Jasenovac in 1941."
• Q.: So how many people were hiding in those brambles with you? (15)
• A.: Two of them that had gone there before me.
Then I was the third one, then two others followed. So
there were five of us.
We didn't dare speak. I just asked one of
them where he was from, and he said he was from the
(20)village of Jagonje, and I told him where I was from.
So if we managed to cross over, if anyone survives, so
that we know something about each other so that we
could tell later on something about each other, but I
didn't ask him his name.
(25)So a patrol appeared again and started to
• Q.: Okay. Witness I, let me ask you a few (5)questions now, if I could. • A.: Yes. • Q.: Have you ever seen any of those four people that you became separated with that night? • A.: No, I didn't see. I never saw them again. I (10)inquired about them. I asked if there had been a man from that village who had escaped the execution, the man from the village of Jagonje, the one that told me where he was from. And I was told that nobody of that description arrived, which means that the three others (15)didn't arrive either. They must have been caught along the way. • Q.: All right. Now, the next morning did you find a roadway and come upon a vehicle, and can you tell us about that? (20)
• A.: Yes, I can tell you about that.
On that evening, after they'd gone and I was
left alone, I would stand up and I would only cover 50
metres, perhaps, and then I would get very tired. And
I had to stop again, have a five-minute rest, and then
(25)continue. So I went on like this. I would cover only
(20)
• Q.: If I can just interrupt you. Could you tell
us now, this next day, about the vehicle you saw, and
try to tell us as you feel the important parts are, but
remember, we don't want you to testify -- we want you
to be able to finish your testimony today. So if you
(25)could tell us the most important parts of that story,
• A.: Yes, I can do that. So I spent the night
there and the following day, I stayed there, and after
(5)that I wanted to move, to leave the area. And at one
point I heard a vehicle engine and I realised that the
vehicle was not moving. And I couldn't go on, I
couldn't go any further. I also heard some noise,
people talking, and I then set out in the opposite
(10)direction. But I knew I had to reach the road, because
after about 20 metres there again would be a forest
which I could use.
I came to the road and I looked down the
road, and I realised that there was blood on the road.
(15)There was a bloodstain which was about half a metre
wide and a few other smaller stains of blood on the
road, and I thought that they were probably driving
away the dead that had been killed on the previous day.
So I managed to reach the wood, and I was
(20)about to turn and then all of a sudden a truck appeared
from down below. And when it came close, I looked at
it and I realised that it was filled up with bodies,
dead bodies. When this truck was close to me, when it
came next to me, when I was about to turn into the
(25)forest, then I heard a voice say, "This is the one that
• Q.: Excuse me, Witness I. Can you tell me only (20)the first name of that man? • A.: Becir.
• Q.: You were finally able to, with Becir,
escape. Can you tell us about the day that you and
Becir decided to turn yourselves in, and tell us how
(25)that happened.
(15) • Q.: Were these civilian policemen? • A.: Yes, civilian policemen. At least that's what I think. They were wearing blue uniforms. • Q.: Were you taken to a little cafe where a Serb person helped you? (20)
• A.: Yes. They were walking around, and at one
point they went to a cafe, the two policemen. They got
into the cafe. I saw some people sitting outside the
cafe, drinking, smoking, and when they learned about
us -- meanwhile, we were still on the bus, which was
(25)parked some 20 metres from the cafe. So when they
• Q.: Shortly after that, were you put on a truck with some other Muslim prisoners and taken to Batkovic prison in Bijeljina? (25)
• A.: Well, I arrived there to Karakaj, and they
• Q.: Do you know about what day this was that you came to Batkovic? • A.: I think it was the 26th. 26th. No, I don't think it was. (20) • Q.: When were you finally released from that prison?
• A.: We were then registered and spent five months
there, and when the sixth month came, it was the
exchange, on the 24th of November, right before the New
(25)Year. That was when I was exchanged.
• A.: I remember well where we got off. Where we got off was something like an apple tree. Further on one could see a garden or a vegetable garden. Whether (10)there was a house there or not, I don't know, because we were not allowed to look much around. We had to look in front and keep our heads down. So what else was there, I don't know. Where I was at the execution site, I saw the (15)spinney in that direction. I could see two buildings, and I could see men making noise near those buildings, shouting, yelling, perhaps at some cattle, at some livestock. Was he feeding them, giving them to drink, something like that. (20) • Q.: Okay. Thank you very much, Witness I. MR. McCLOSKEY: I have no further questions, Mr. President. THE WITNESS: Thank you too.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.]
(25)Mr. Visnjic, how long do you think you will need, more
MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I don't think I will need more than half an hour. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Right. So (5)it would be better if we made a break now and then we shall come back to it. Therefore, we shall make a 20-minute break, and we will resume with the cross-examination. --- Recess taken at 12.34 p.m. (10) --- On resuming at 12.56 p.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Witness I, I should like to remind you, when you finish your testimony, don't leave immediately because our protective measures need to be put in order then. So (15)now you will answer questions which Mr. Visnjic will ask. Mr. Visnjic is a sensitive person and he'll treat you well. Now you will answer his questions. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. (20) • CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Visnjic: • Q.: Good afternoon, Witness I. • A.: Good afternoon.
• Q.: Before I begin, with my questions, I should
like to ask you, since the two of us speak the same
(25)language, to just wait a little before you give your
(5) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Witness I, I know it is very hard for you to go back and relive those events, and I shall try to be as precise as I can, and I will ask you now the following: In your testimony today, you described your (10)stay in Potocari in the night between the 12th and the 13th of July. Do you remember that? • A.: I do. • Q.: No, no. I will ask you. That was the second night? (15) • A.: Yes, the second night. • Q.: You said that Serb soldiers were taking away Muslim men during the night. • A.: Yes. • Q.: My question is very short. Did you see with (20)your own eyes the Serb soldiers take away people or did you hear it from other people who were with you in the area?
• A.: I heard that from other people. And that
night I personally heard screams, wailing, people
(25)screaming, crying for help, and that sort.
• A.: Yes. In that house, they were separating, bringing people in, and, yes, walking up and down and guarding. • Q.: Could you describe their uniform? (10) • A.: All I can describe is many coloured clothes. Other things, I know nothing about that. But there were all sorts of those clothes and they were all of many colours. • Q.: When you say "many colours," you mean (15)camouflage, olive-green/grey? • A.: Well, yes, something like green and blue, those colours, many of them. • Q.: And from that house, when you headed for Bratunac by bus, by bus to Bratunac -- (20) • A.: Yes. • Q.: -- were those the same soldiers who escorted you?
• A.: Why, I don't know. I didn't know those
soldiers, can't give you their names and say "so and
(25)so" and "so and so" and "so and so" were there. I
• Q.: The soldiers who were on the buses and (5)arrived in Bratunac with you, and those who put you in that school, Vuk Karadzic, did they also guard you during those two days that you spent there? • A.: Well, yes, they guarded us throughout. And not only that, but they also took us out and killed us, (10)and there were screams in that school. But it was not the same soldiers all the time. One day, two nights, nobody could manage that. They must have had two shifts, 100 per cent. But shifts, as they came -- when they came, every shift did the same thing. They didn't (15)do as the army should do. • Q.: Let me ask you a question, my next question: From the school in Bratunac, you were taken to Pilica. Could you tell us, do you think it was those same soldiers who were in Bratunac with you? You can answer (20)it only with yes or no. Do you remember that?
• A.: I can't answer because they had shifts,
that's why I'm saying that. They brought us to
Bratunac. Perhaps one shift went to have a break and
another shift came, "You're all right. You'll move on
(25)to Tuzla." But it all happened the other way around;
• Q.: Witness I, did you notice, while you were in Pilica, did you notice a soldier -- let me try it this way: Did you notice in Pilica any of the soldiers that (5)you saw in Bratunac or in Potocari, or any of the soldiers that you saw in the buses either between Bratunac and Pilica or between Potocari and Bratunac? • A.: I only know those who came from Bratunac to Pilica on the buses with us, who escorted us there, and (10)there were other troops there who took us over. And with those who escorted us on that road, I don't know what happened to them. Whether they stayed there or went back or went on, I don't know that. • Q.: So in Pilica you were met by some new (15)soldiers that you had not seen before. • A.: Well, as soon as we got off, there were many troops there, I could see there were many troops there, and they took us to the school right away. • Q.: Thank you. My next question is: Did the (20)soldiers who met you at Pilica wear different uniforms from the soldiers that you saw in Bratunac and Potocari?
• A.: Well, it was similar -- same uniform, I mean
clothes. And weapons too, mostly automatic weapons, a
(25)carbine here and there or a PAP, the automatic one.
• A.: Yes, escorting, in the bus. (5) • Q.: Those soldiers, would they get off together with the group and stay at the site of execution, or did they go back with the buses? Could you remember that? • A.: They were down at the school, those who saw (10)us to the buses, and they would go back to the school and take another group. And a soldier, say, who would escort us in the bus, he would come out up there for the execution, and they only stood there. They were there and they were executing there. They were (15)executing there. They were meeting every bus as it would come, and execute everybody, shoot everybody, and they were always there, that group. That group did not go -- • Q.: Yes. That group of soldiers which performed (20)the executions, did they perhaps wear uniforms different from the ones that you saw on other people, or did they have, perhaps, any special patches?
• A.: I could not see any other patch. But it was
also, you know, great fear. Lives are disappearing.
(25)You don't think about anything else. You're counting
• Q.: Thank you. My next question: You said that when you surrendered you were escorted by the civilian police. What uniforms did they have? (5) • A.: I think they were civilian because the clothes were blue, that's why I think so, not many colours like the troops, like the military had, but blue. They were quite young men, and I can be quite satisfied with that police. Yes, they did harass us a (10)little bit, pistol to the forehead. But all right, I mean, people want marks, and others want marks and take both your marks and your life. So that's that. • Q.: Just one more question, and that is my final one, Mr. President. In your testimony you said that at (15)the place of execution one of the soldiers mentioned Jasenovac in 1941. • A.: Yes, a Serb soldier mentioned that, a Serb soldier. • Q.: Could you explain to the Chamber, what was (20)Jasenovac? Jasenovac was a concentration camp, wasn't it?
• A.: I don't have enough school to know about
that, but from what I've heard, a major massacre
happened there once in 1941. But who died there and
(25)how he died there, I don't know because I don't have
• Q.: Do you know that the victims of that massacre were Serbs, Jews, and Romanies or Gypsies? • A.: I wouldn't know that, but from what I think, (5)I suppose, yes, Jews, and perhaps Serbs too. But I wouldn't really know. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I have no further questions. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, (10)Mr. Visnjic. Mr. McCloskey, do you have any additional questions? MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Mr. President. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Judge Riad, (15)do you have any questions? JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. • QUESTIONED by the Court: JUDGE RIAD: Witness I -- I have to call you (20)"Witness I"; I shall not say your name -- good morning. Can you see me? Can you hear me? • A.: Now I can. JUDGE RIAD: You can hear me now. Good morning. (25)
• A.: Yes, I can hear you now. Good morning.
• A.: Thank you. Thank you. JUDGE RIAD: So accept that I will just continue these questions for a few minutes, if you can (10)take it. Some you might need to answer and some you don't need to answer. In general, you mentioned twice that the soldiers around you were speaking of something of genocide. Did they use the word "genocide"? Is there (15)a word in Serbo-Croat for genocide which has that meaning, or was it just killing? You said twice that they spoke of genocide; first, when you fell on the ground and one wanted to kill you, the other told him, "Wait. You should do genocide properly." And another (20)time they spoke of something strange, a soldier told another, "Now w have done the same genocide as in Jasenovac in 1941." What was the genocide in Jasenovac?
• A.: Yes. Yes, I understand. The genocide,
(25)meaning very many people were killed, perhaps even
JUDGE RIAD: Just tell us about this genocide (10)of Jasenovac. Do you know something about it, in 1941, which you heard the soldiers saying? • A.: Well, I do, but all I know is that there was a genocide in 1941 and that they were executed like in Srebrenica this time, that very many people were killed (15)and slain. JUDGE RIAD: Many people? Who were they? Who did it? Was it the Serbs? Was it the Croats? Was it the Muslims? Who was killed and who was killing, if you know about it? And why were they mentioning it? (20)
• A.: I know they knew about that genocide, seeing
that they talked like that, and I was lying down then.
And it was then that I heard it with my own ears, and I
heard it well. Not that I noticed; I heard it with my
own ears. And later on they said that Serbs, Jews had
(25)been killed there, something like that, but I don't
JUDGE RIAD: Good. Now, if you look at all the series of transportation from one place to another, (5)and the killings in several places, did you feel that there was some kind of systematic organisation and, more or less, harmony in the execution, and not just something happening in a completely, let us say, wild way by criminals, by bands of criminals? Did you feel (10)an organisation, a systematic military organisation, or criminals catching you here and there? • A.: It surely was the order from the top, from the chiefs who ordered that, because that could not be done without their order. It was not a small genocide, (15)it was a big genocide. All those men, 8.000. There were 8.000 Srebrenica people, and they are all gone. JUDGE RIAD: Speaking of numbers, you mentioned something like between 1.000 and 1.500 killed when the soldiers were executing. How do you know this (20)number?
• A.: I don't know the exact number. That is why I
tell you between 1.000 and 1.500. There must have
been, judging by this area, this surface that was
covered by bodies.
(25)And 8.000 Srebrenica inhabitants are missing,
(5) JUDGE RIAD: You are a man of great courage, and you survived by miracle, and this miracle will help you live. • A.: No. I don't understand one thing. JUDGE RIAD: Yes, please. (10) • A.: I don't understand one thing. I simply can't understand how is it that I've kept my sanity, that I have not really gone mad. I don't understand how I got away. I really wonder to this day. I wonder to myself, "How was it possible that I got away?" I can't (15)believe myself that I could have gone through all this, but I did go through all that. JUDGE RIAD: Well, if you want to have some rest, you will, but there must be a purpose for your survival; to tell the world your story. The world was (20)waiting to hear your story. • A.: Well, yes, it could be that. Yes. Something looked after me. JUDGE RIAD: So continue telling your story, which is of great value. (25)
• A.: I'm terribly sorry. I know you have it very
JUDGE RIAD: Rest as much as you can. But you are here to tell us something important, and we thank you for it. (5) • A.: Serbs were my neighbours. We were all mixed altogether, all equal, and we all lived properly like neighbours should. When the politics started, what happened? I simply -- it's completely beyond me. We never quarrelled. (10)It was easy to live while Tito ruled. We can say that then we lived well, and at that time I know that I lived a life. Today, I don't live. I live like a beast today, like a wild beast. Today, I'm not happy that I'm alive. All I'm (15)saying, "But help me, Lord, not to suffer any more as long as I live." And I won't be sorry to die, because I see that all the good life is already behind me. All those people that I cared about are gone.
JUDGE RIAD: I'm sorry we provoked all these
(20)memories, but we are happy that you are alive and that
you are here. Now, just for a few more minutes, try to
continue remembering some of your sad, tragic events.
You mentioned something about -- of course,
sometimes there are real kind human beings, like the
(25)man who received you in the cafe. Then you said after
• A.: Those were soldiers -- no, not soldiers, police. I mean, civilian police. Blue clothes is what they wore. Now, whether they were military police or (10)civilian police, I don't know, but they looked like civilian police, blue clothes. JUDGE RIAD: And they wanted to finish you up. They wanted to kill you. • A.: Well, that's what one said. And the other (15)one, what he said -- no, they did not take us anywhere. It means the other one wouldn't let him, so that we stayed there and reached Karakaj. And the Red Cross was there, and then we were taken further on. JUDGE RIAD: Now, when you fell down after (20)the execution, there were -- they passed to shoot everybody who was moving, and you were able not to move at all, or were you hidden under other people? If you remember. How did they not notice you, in your opinion? (25)
• A.: They did not notice because I was lying on my
JUDGE RIAD: But the others shouted and said they were alive, to be killed. They wanted to be (10)killed and to finish up. • A.: They wanted, yes, to have it done and over with. Why? I don't know, but I suppose they must have been severely wounded. They must have had grave wounds, and that was why they called out. But I wasn't (15)hurt. I didn't feel hurt, so I just kept silent. I thought, well, perhaps if I can't untie my hands, perhaps I will let them know that I was alive and let them kill, but I did manage to get my hands free, so that I just kept silent and stayed there. (20) JUDGE RIAD: Very good. No, when you fell, did you fall because you received a bullet, or you managed to fall so that you pretended? Did the bullet reach you when they were shooting or you were hurt afterwards? (25)
• A.: There was not an explicit command like
JUDGE RIAD: Just a last question. You mentioned that they brought children of the age of 14, they called boys of 14 and 15 years old and told them (15)that Abdic needs them, and you said that Abdic was a man who was apparently -- we didn't know what he is, but he was fighting against the Bosnians. Do you know what happened to these children? Were they killed? Were they sent to Abdic? Did people find out after (20)that? What were they doing to these children?
• A.: They took 12 of them from the room. I don't
know how many of them there were in other rooms, but
they must have gathered them together. I don't know
how many in total they were, but there were 12 of them
(25)that were taken out from our room. They said that
JUDGE RIAD: Now, when you were put on buses, (15)if you remember, you mentioned that you crossed the Drina River into Serbia. So the bus went into Serbia -- • A.: Yes. JUDGE RIAD: -- with you as prisoners in it? (20) • A.: Yes. JUDGE RIAD: Not in Bosnia, in Serbia.
• A.: We went to Zvornik, and this is where we
crossed into Serbia. And we travelled in Serbia for a
while, up to Loznica, more or less. At that point
(25)there is a bridge over the Drina, and this is where we
JUDGE RIAD: Did anyone stop you in Serbia, (5)in the Serbian state? Did anybody stop you, policemen or anything? Because this -- • A.: I don't remember that. I don't remember anyone stopping us. JUDGE RIAD: But it was obvious that these (10)were buses of prisoners. And nobody stopped you there? • A.: Yes. JUDGE RIAD: Nobody -- • A.: There was seven buses. JUDGE RIAD: Packed with you prisoners in (15)it. • A.: Yes. Seven buses plus probably later on more buses came. Maybe even more buses had come before us, because I had seen a number of dead bodies before. So this may have happened before and after. Between 1.000 (20)and 1.500. I'm sure about that. JUDGE RIAD: And you don't remember how much time this took, the time you spent in Serbia?
• A.: We didn't spend any time there, we just
travelled through Serbia for a while. We didn't stop.
(25)Maybe the asphalt road through Serbia was better, I
JUDGE RIAD: Witness I, thank you, and I apologise, I have added a bit to your ordeal here, but (5)you have done a great job. Thank you. • A.: Thank you too. I really appreciate that such a Tribunal has been created. I'm very happy that we have it. I think each individual should be held responsible for what he has done, because if we let (10)this go, then lots of other things might happen again. But if we have a Tribunal like this, I think it will be better. We still cannot go back to Srebrenica. They've killed so many people and still they wouldn't (15)let us go back to Srebrenica. We live in other people's houses. There's nothing we can call our own, and my own land is still there. They have to be captured, all of them. Then, maybe, we could go back to Srebrenica. Until that time, there will be no (20)security. The soldiers, the police, this is all to no avail. They're unable to protect every single civilian who would like to go back.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Witness I,
we haven't finished yet. I think that Judge Wald would
(25)also like to ask a few questions of you.
JUDGE WALD: Witness I, I don't have but four (5)short questions for you. I too much appreciate your coming here. During the time that you were in Potocari, in the house with the other men, and later on in the Bratunac school and later still in the Pilica school -- (10) • A.: Yes. JUDGE WALD: -- did anybody ever interrogate you? Did any of the Serb soldiers ever take you out and ask you questions about anything or did you just stay with the other men? (15) • A.: We just stayed there inside with the other men. As for those other people who were taken out and killed, I don't know. I don't know how they were killed, whether they were killed with clubs or something else. They must have been asked something. (20)They must have been interrogated, but they didn't want to interrogate them only, they wanted to beat them. JUDGE WALD: Right. • A.: As for us who were inside, they didn't ask us anything. (25)
JUDGE WALD: Okay.
JUDGE WALD: Right. Could you tell, as to the men that were taken out in the Bratunac school or (5)the Pilica school that were singled out and taken out and back and either beaten or subsequently killed, could you tell when they were called out, were they called out by name? Did somebody have a list that singled them out or did the soldiers just appear and (10)say, "You and you and you"? • A.: Well, something like that. They would simply say, "You, get out." I didn't see any list. I didn't see them look up a list or anything. JUDGE WALD: So it looked as though they were (15)just picking them out at random? Okay. • A.: Yes, I think. I think they picked up younger men and more prominent ones, and they tortured them. Those who remained were taken out, put onto buses, and executed. They didn't ask anyone anything, if they (20)were guilty of something or not. They had camps. They could have taken people to their camps and spared their lives, but they didn't want to know anything. They just killed.
JUDGE WALD: When you were in the Pilica
(25)school, you said that there were people packed in the
(10)
• A.: Let me tell you, that's why they had been
keeping us hungry for about three or four days. They
just gave us, at one point, some dry biscuits to eat.
But they wanted to exhaust us as much as possible so
that people would die before they had to kill them.
(15)Then on the other hand, we kept hoping that
things would turn out right for us. There were just
too many of us. We simply couldn't believe that people
would be held accountable for something, but obviously
they had a different idea in mind.
(20)All we knew was what they actually told us.
They told us that we would be going to Tuzla, but they
acted differently. And it was only when they started
cursing us, cursing our balija mothers, it was only
then that we realised that we would be killed. Until
(25)that time we were trying to behave, we would try to act
JUDGE WALD: My last question to you is: After the terrible ordeal that you had, both on the (5)killing fields and later on trying to escape, what was it that made you decide in the end you would surrender? Did you think you would have a better chance of not coming back in the hands of the same soldiers, or you were just totally exhausted? What (10)made you decide, after you'd gotten that far, that you'd give yourself up to the authorities?
• A.: Well, I was thinking, I knew I had a long way
to travel, I knew that there were minefields. And we
had moved away from the execution site and we thought,
(15)"Well, they cannot go on killing forever." And we
were so exhausted, we could no longer walk. We were
losing consciousness. We had nothing to eat, no bread,
nothing, just sour berries from the forest. So it was
either to die in the woods or to surrender. We didn't
(20)know the road; we didn't know the way. We couldn't
orient ourselves, and we had nothing to eat.
So to surrender was the only option, it meant
life, and the other option was death. And this is how
we surrendered.
(25)And when I came to Batkovic, for a while I
JUDGE WALD: Why did they think you had -- so what did you tell them that you were surrendering for? Why did they put you in prison if they didn't know this (10)information?
• A.: Well, they put me in prison together with
other people who had come from Srebrenica and who had
been captured, and this is what I told them. I told
them that that was my case as well, because I didn't
(15)dare tell them anything else. And this is how I was
registered and how I remained there.
Because, yes, the Red Cross is a useful
thing, no doubt about that, but many people had an
opportunity to see how things work because they had to
(20)go out to dig trenches, people who were with us in the
camp, and their identity cards, Red Cross identity
cards, were taken away from them and torn apart. And
after they had come back to Batkovic, the Red Cross
wanted to see their cards, and there was a corporal
(25)there who said, "Don't show them, don't tell them.
JUDGE WALD: Thank you, Witness I. We're glad you chose the option of life. We think you've done a great service. Thank you. THE WITNESS: [Int.] Thank you. (10)Thank you too. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Witness I, my questions for you will be very short. At the beginning you mentioned a kind of trumpet that you heard in Potocari on the 12th of (15)July. Do you remember who it was that used that trumpet? • A.: I wouldn't know whether it was a Muslim, a Serb. I don't know who it had been given to. I don't know. I don't remember the clothes the man wore. It (20)could have been a civilian suit. But it was so long ago that I have forgotten it.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Witness I,
you spoke about an execution site and you mentioned six
columns of people at that execution site. Do you know,
(25)by any chance, how many people there were in each
• A.: I think that approximately one bus full of people, that is, 45 seats, there were probably lots of people standing, two columns would be formed out of one (5)bus. So there must have been 50 people on each bus, that is, between 23 and 27 people per column. It must have been like that. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Do you remember the time of the day when the executions (10)started? • A.: I couldn't tell you exactly when it was, but it was in the morning hours, perhaps around 9.00 or 10.00, after they had asked people if they wanted to go to Sarajevo. At that moment, they left and then buses (15)started coming. They kept coming and going relatively quickly, so that was kind of interesting because it was a long way to Sarajevo, and this surprised us. We had no idea how long we would live, but we kept hoping. And when they told us to get out, when (20)they started cursing us, then we realised that there would be no life for us.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] My last
question for you, Witness I, concerns Bratunac and
Pilica, that is, the soldiers who were there.
(25)Mr. Visnjic wanted to know whether those were
• A.: Well, all I remember was that there were soldiers wearing multicoloured suits, and then on the other hand the police who were wearing blue uniforms. These are the two kinds of clothing that I remember. I (10)don't remember anything else. I was so afraid, so terrified, I just couldn't observe all that.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Of course,
Witness I, I fully understand that.
What you have told us here, Witness I, is
(15)indeed an extreme type of human conduct. It goes
beyond all horror films that have been made so far.
But on the other hand, there is a humane
story that you have told us here too. Remember the
waiter that you mentioned, you said that he had told
(20)you that he liked everyone, that he liked all people.
You're a wise man, Witness I, you have experienced a
lot in life, and all I can tell you at the end of your
testimony is that I hope that once you go back to your
country, you will no longer feel as a dry tree standing
(25)alone in the forest and that you will manage to find
THE WITNESS:
[Int.] Thank you, Your
Honours. (15)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Mr. Harmon,
or somebody else, we are ready for a new witness. Do
you think it is worthwhile beginning his testimony? We
have 40 minutes left. (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Cayley.
MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, we do have
another witness, and it is another victim with evidence
in the same fashion that you've heard for the last few
(25)hours.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. The thing is my colleagues have asked for a short break, a ten-minute break, before we start again. Can we start again at 2.00. (15) --- Recess taken at 1.53 p.m. --- On resuming at 2.05 p.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Can you hear me, Witness? THE WITNESS: [No audible response] (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You will now read the solemn translation that the usher will show you.
THE WITNESS:
[Int.] I solemnly
declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth,
(25)and nothing but the truth.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] You can
take your seat now. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] The representative of the Registry will now show you a piece of paper with your name on it. You will look at it to see whether this is, indeed, your name, but you (10)will only say yes or no. Do you understand? THE WITNESS: [Int.] I do. I do. Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So it is your name on that piece of paper. (15) THE WITNESS: [Int.] It is. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well, Witness. Thank you very much for coming here. We know that you had a very long wait, and now you will begin your testimony. You will first answer questions that (20)Mr. Cayley, who is to the right of you, will ask. Mr. Cayley, you have the floor. MR. CAYLEY: Good afternoon, Mr. President, Your Honours, learned counsel. Thank you. • EXAMINED by Mr. Cayley: (25)
• Q.: Now, Witness, first of all, you are perfectly
• A.: Yes. • Q.: And you are a Muslim by faith. • A.: Yes. • Q.: And I think in 1995 you were a member of the (15)Bosnian army. • A.: Yes. • Q.: I want you to think back to the 11th of July, in 1995, and I think you were working as a farmer in your field. (20) • A.: Yes. Yes. • Q.: And the fields on which you were working were in your local commune, which was a village that was located within the Srebrenica enclave; is that right? • A.: Yes. (25)
• Q.: And I think while you were working in the
• A.: I do. (5) • Q.: I think that you then returned home and you packed some food and you left. • A.: Yes. Yes. • Q.: Can you tell the Judges, slowly, in your own time, everything that happened to you after you left (10)your home and your village, in the municipality of Srebrenica? • A.: I can. • Q.: Please go head, Witness. • A.: Before we begin, I should like to thank the (15)Hague Tribunal and the Court which enabled the truth to be told about the genocide of the Bosniaks in the protected enclave of Srebrenica. • Q.: Witness, you can now begin with your account of events after you left your village in Srebrenica. (20)
• A.: I started on the 11th of July, 1995, I left
my home, between 7.00 and 8.00 in the afternoon
[sic]
I put my belongings in a backpack and headed for
Tuzla. When we reached Spasonjin Do, we were told that
there would be a rally at Jaglici. We arrived at
(25)Jaglici at night and spent the night at Jaglici.
• Q.: Witness, if you could pause there for a (10)moment, and I want to ask you some questions about the evidence that you've given to the Judges, just to clarify it in my mind. Now, you've said earlier on that on the 1th of July, 1995, you went to a place called Jaglici. Do you recall that? (15) • A.: I do. • Q.: Let me show you a map that we looked at last night, and this is so the Judges can understand the place that you're talking about. MR. CAYLEY: If the Witness can be shown (20)Prosecutor Exhibit 8A/1. You can place it in front of the witness.
• Q.: Now, Witness, do you see Jaglici marked on
that? Can you move it so -- do you recall that we
spoke about this last night, and I said I would mark on
(25)"Jaglici," where you knew the village was? Do you
• A.: Yes. • Q.: Do you see where "Jaglici" is written on the map? (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Witness, Mr. Cayley has given you some instructions. You do not need to look for the smaller lettering but for larger letters. MR. CAYLEY: (10) • Q.: Witness, do you see where "Jaglici" is written on the map? It's all right, Witness. We won't use this map. It's all right. MR. CAYLEY: Your Honours, what I suggest you do, because I realise it's actually quite difficult to (15)orient yourselves, is if you look at Prosecutor Exhibit 1/E/1, a number of places that the witness is speaking about you will be able to see quite easily. They're already actually marked on map. Many of the smaller hamlets and hills that he mentions are marked, (20)but, broadly speaking, you will be able to follow on this map, on 1/E/1. • Q.: Now, Witness, do you recall how many men gathered at Jaglici?
MR. CAYLEY: You don't need to give it to the
(25)witness.
MR. CAYLEY: (5) • Q.: Were you armed at the time? • A.: I had my hunting rifle with me, the one that I was given in 1968, because I was a member of a hunting club in Srebrenica. • Q.: So it was a hunting weapon. You used it for (10)hunting foxes and rabbits and that kind of thing? • A.: Yes. • Q.: What happened to that gun? • A.: When we were about to leave Jaglici, my brother-in-law was with me, and we had food in my (15)backpack, and we agreed, "Well, I'll take the rifle, and you take the backpack." So he took the rifle, and I took the backpack. That was the last time we saw each other. As of then, every trace of him and the rifle has been lost. (20) • Q.: Now, you said that you set out from Jaglici to Buljim. Now, you've also said that there was a very large group of people. Whereabouts were you located -- • A.: Yes.
• Q.: Whereabouts were you located in that group of
(25)people that was moving towards Buljim? Do you
• A.: I was somewhere in the middle when we reached that macadam road below Buljim. We passed their line and came down to that macadam road, and the end of the (5)first column was standing. Somebody behind me asked, "What are we waiting for?" Some 70 metres in front of me, somebody said, "Well, we've lost the track of the column." Somebody up there swore, said, "I'll tell you where the column is," and he came down to the macadam (10)road, except that on the left side of the hill he shouted, "What are we waiting for?" and swore again. And the fire started and shelling from that direction, and people began to scatter in all directions. Most people started to the left, beyond (15)the stream, and I started downstream with that small group of my neighbours. So when the morning came, we were slightly above Kamenica when they pushed us downwards to Lolici. I didn't know it was Lolici until I was told (20)that by the man who had come out together with me from the warehouse. I asked him, "Where are we?" He said, "Up in Lolici." And as we were sitting there at Lolici, they -- (25)
• Q.: Witness, I just have a couple more questions
• A.: We came together -- we were together until (5)Ravna Njiva, men, civilians, women, children, all people. They were all heading to Potocari, naturally, to UNPROFOR, and we headed for Jaglici, through the woods. That is where we parted with our wives, daughters, sisters. (10) • Q.: Now, you said to the Judges that, I think, two ambushes took place. Who mounted those ambushes against the column that were moving through the woods? Do you remember? • A.: Who else could it be but Serbs? Their (15)troops, seeing that they fired and shelled and killed. • Q.: Let me now take you back to what you stated earlier. You mentioned that you then got to a place called Lolici. If you could tell the Judges what happened to you at that point. Thank you. (20)
• A.: When we got there, when we were driven down
to Lolici, I said already that two soldiers were
standing there. They searched us, looking for money.
They tied our hands behind our necks. We crossed the
asphalt and sat in a meadow across the asphalt.
(25)There was a tank to the right-hand side and
• Q.: Witness, if you could stop at that point. MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I think if you wish, this might be a point in time at which to stop, because then the witness then comes on to another area (10)that will take a considerable amount of time to explain. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Cayley. We agree. Witness J, we shall now adjourn, and you will (15)be able to pass a quiet weekend in The Hague. We shall resume on Monday at 9.30. So have a nice weekend. Thank you. --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.31 p.m., to be reconvened on (20)Monday, the 10th day of April, 2000 at 9.30 a.m. |
