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(1)Thursday, 6th April 2000 [Open session] [The witness entered court]
--- Upon commencing at 9.34 a.m. JUDGE RIAD: Good morning. I would like to greet the parties, the accused, and all the ladies and gentlemen whose cooperation is making this trial possible, and I extend my greetings to the public, who (10)is also making this trial possible. Please call the case, Madam Registrar. THE REGISTRAR: Good morning, Your Honours. This is case number IT-98-33-T, the Prosecutor versus Radislav Krstic. (15) JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Egbers, good morning. We are proceeding with your testimony and, I think, it is Mr. Mark Harmon who is in charge. Please proceed, Mr. Harmon. THE WITNESS: Good morning. (20) MR. HARMON: Thank you. Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning to my colleagues for the Defence, and good morning, Captain Egbers.
WITNESS: VINCENTIUS BERNARDUS EGBERS (25)
• EXAMINED by Mr. Harmon:
[Cont'd]
• A.: When I crossed the town Nova Kasaba, I headed south for Milici and then to the west, towards (15)Vlasenica, and it was on this road that one of the buses broke down, from another convoy, I guess. And I managed to stop a red Volkswagen with four military Bosnian Serbs, dressed in black overalls in it. I saw one of the Bosnian Serb military was a colonel of the (20)Bosnian Serb army, and I asked him to arrange an empty bus for the women and children who were in this broken bus. • Q.: Did he do so? • A.: Yes, he did, sir. (25)
• Q.: Did the bus and did you then proceed in the
• A.: Yes, we did. • Q.: Did you arrive at a location where the Muslim women and children were discharged from the buses? (5) • A.: I reached the same point as the day before, where the women and children had to leave the buses and walk. • Q.: And was there anything eventful at that particular location, or was it rather uneventful? (10) • A.: It was the same scene as the day before. • Q.: Now, after all of the Muslim women and children were discharged from the buses, did you return back along the same route, in the direction of Potocari? (15) • A.: Yes, sir, I did. • Q.: Tell the Judges what happened next. • A.: I was stopped at a roadblock before entering the village of Nova Kasaba. • Q.: Now, would you take the pointer that's next (20)to you and would you approach Prosecutor's Exhibit 1E, and can you point on the large map, the location where you were stopped at the roadblock. • A.: I was stopped at this location [indicates]
MR. HARMON: Indicating, for the record, it
(25)appears to be south of the town of Nova Kasaba.
• A.: At that location there were a through infantry men pointing their AK-47s at us and telling us (5)to stop. They had -- they told us to get out of the car. They took our car, drove it away, checked the car, checked our identification, and held us there. • Q.: When you say "us", who are you referring to? • A.: Well, at first I thought it was just the (10)driver and myself who were there, but when I checked I saw other Dutch UN troops sitting on the side of the road, guarded by Bosnian Serb soldiers. • Q.: How many UN Dutch troops were being guarded by UN -- by Serbian soldiers? (15) • A.: About ten at that time, I thought. • Q.: And how many UN vehicles were in the area? • A.: At that time there were four UN Mercedes light vehicles in the nearance [sic] of the roadblock. • Q.: Were those soldiers and the vehicles free to (20)leave that location or were they being detained? • A.: We were not free to leave. We had to wait at the side of the road. • Q.: What did you do next?
• A.: I asked to speak with the commander in
(25)charge.
• A.: The commander in charge of the soldiers who were pointing their guns at us, at the roadblock nearby Nova Kasaba. (5) • Q.: What happened next? • A.: Then one of the conscripts, a soldier who could speak English, took me to a Major Zoran Malinic, who was in charge of the troops who were pointing their guns at us. (10) • Q.: Where did he take you in relation to the roadblock? How far away? • A.: It was about 100 metres from this road. There was a school, and this school was their headquarters. (15) MR. HARMON: Now, if I could have Prosecutor's Exhibit 87 and then Prosecutor's Exhibit 88 given to the usher and also disseminated to the Court and counsel. • Q.: I'd like to start with Prosecutor's Exhibit (20)87 and place that on the ELMO and ask you, Captain Egbers, you have seen this particular exhibit in my office before coming to testify, have you not? • A.: I have, sir.
• Q.: And were you able to identify in Prosecutor's
(25)Exhibit 87 the location where you were taken?
• Q.: Could you take the pointer, please, and indicate where, on Prosecutor's Exhibit 87, you were taken by that conscript soldier? (5) • A.: Well, this is the road going towards Nova Kasaba [indicates], and the roadblock was over here on the road [indicates] And this is a small path towards the school [indicates], and this is the school that was used as a headquarters. This is a parking place and (10)this is a small building [indicates] MR. HARMON: For the record, when Captain Egbers has said "this is the road going to Nova Kasaba," he was referring to the large road that goes from the top, toward the right-hand side of the (15)diagram. It's the main road. When he was referring to the building where he was taken, he's referring to the large buildings at the lower portion of this Prosecutor's Exhibit. When he referred to the parking lot, he was (20)referring to the area in front of the large building that appears to have two buses on it, and the small building is at the end of a long road, the main road leading to Nova Kasaba, prior to entering into the parking lot. (25)
• Q.: Now, when you went to this -- let me show you
• A.: This is the school which I've just mentioned (5)before. • Q.: Okay. This is the large building; is that correct? • A.: This is the large building, used as a headquarters. (10) MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. Usher. I've completed with these exhibits. • Q.: When you arrived at the large building, Captain Egbers, you said you met a Captain Zoran Malinic? (15) • A.: He was a Major and his name was Malinic. • Q.: Could you describe him, please? • A.: He was about 40 years old, dressed in a green T-shirt, green camouflage trousers, black shoes, black hair, and one particular part of his hair was grey. I (20)think it was grey from his birth on. • Q.: How did he identify himself to you? Did he identify himself as being the individual in charge of the roadblock?
• A.: He told me that he was -- that his soldiers
(25)were handling that roadblock.
• A.: He told me that he was in charge of three battalions that were surrounding Sarajevo, and he had to take one battalion and head for Srebrenica. (5) • Q.: Now, did you make a complaint to Major Zoran Malinic about your detention and the detention of the other UN soldiers at the roadblock? • A.: Yes. Not only did I mention the stolen vehicles, but I also mentioned the stolen guns, the (10)stolen body armours, blue helmets, and I asked him to escort us back to Potocari so we could escort another convoy of deported women and children towards Kladanj. • Q.: Now, let me ask you, Captain Egbers, did you prepare -- was it an oral complaint or was it a written (15)complaint, or was it both? • A.: I first told this Major that we couldn't accept the things that were going on at the time. Then we had the time to type it all out in Serbian/Croatian. There was an interpreter, he had a (20)writing machine, and he wrote down a statement from me at the time, to be signed by this Major Zoran. And he got a copy of this written letter -- how can you call this? • Q.: Your complaint? (25)
• A.: Letter of complaint, yes.
• A.: Sergeant Mulder came to us at the school and he told me about the things he had to be done -- he had (5)to do for his Bosnian Serb soldiers he met on the way, and I complained about that as well. • Q.: Could you tell the Judges what Sergeant Mulder told you and about what you complained to Major Malinic? (10) • A.: Well, he was stopped by Bosnian Serbs. He had to sit on the front of one of the Dutch APCs, driven by Bosnian Serbs who were wearing blue helmets. He had an AK-47 given to him, and at first -- JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. Who was wearing blue (15)helmets, the UN or the Serbs? THE WITNESS: The Serbs were -- JUDGE RIAD: Are they entitled to wear blue helmets? THE WITNESS: No, of course not, sir. (20) JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. MR. HARMON: • Q.: Please continue with your description of what happened to Sergeant Mulder.
• A.: Well, at first he had to sit on the front of
(25)the APC and the Bosnian Serbs would drive this APC on
• Q.: Who told Sergeant Mulder that he had to shoot the Muslims who were coming out of the woods? • A.: Those were the Bosnian Serbs who were on one (10)side of the road, facing -- facing the woods where the Muslims were at that time. • Q.: And who told Sergeant Mulder that he, Sergeant Mulder, had to shoot the Muslims? • A.: Well, he told me that it was told by the (15)driver and the other guys that were on the APC. • Q.: Now, what did Major Malinic say to that complaint? • A.: Well, he said he wasn't the one who could do anything with this complaint, he had to inform his (20)superior, which was a colonel called Beara. • Q.: Now, let me ask you this question, Captain: At some point in time, while you were in this vicinity, did you order your soldiers to take the APCs that had been detained and returned to Potocari? (25)
• A.: Well, I asked this Major Zoran why we
• Q.: Did -- • A.: Sorry. I'm just waiting for the translation. (10) • Q.: All right. • A.: He told me that it was -- that he didn't have any influence on those troops and it was better for our own safety to stay with him, at his place, at that time. (15) • Q.: Did you direct two of your APCs that had been detained at the roadblock, nevertheless, to return to Potocari? • A.: Well, there were no APCs, they were just light Mercedes vehicles. We had four Mercedes vehicles (20)with us at that time, and I ordered three of them, with UN troops, to go towards Nova Kasaba and try to reach Potocari. • Q.: What happened to those soldiers and what happened to those vehicles? (25)
• A.: Well, about 200 metres, they were stopped by
(5) • Q.: What did you then decide to do? • A.: I decided to stay at the school, report in headquarters at Potocari that another two vehicles were stolen, and I wanted guarantees from this Major Zoran that he would be able to guarantee a safe way back to (10)Potocari. • Q.: Now, while you were at the school or in the area of the roadblock, did you see stolen UN APCs driven by Bosnian Serb soldiers, dressed in stolen UN gear? (15) • A.: Yes. There was one APC that was driven by a Bosnian Serb, wearing a blue helmet. • Q.: Did you spend the night at the location of this particular school? • A.: Yes, I did, sir. (20) • Q.: That night, did you hear any gunfire?
• A.: Yes, there was a lot of gunfire, there was a
machine-gun, but they used it not the way we were told,
just to make a few rounds. There were about 100
rounds, and then they stopped, and then another 100
(25)rounds. So it was a long machine-gun fire we heard.
• A.: No, we were not. • Q.: How far away from this school, that is (5)identified in Prosecutor's Exhibit 87, was the football pitch at Nova Kasaba? • A.: About 800, 900 metres, I think. MR. HARMON: Now, let me ask the usher once again to please put Prosecutor's Exhibit 87 on the (10)ELMO. • Q.: And let me ask you, Captain Egbers, while you were detained at this school, did you have an opportunity to inspect a small building that was located on the compound where you were being detained? (15) • A.: Yes, sir. The next day I was able to check this little building for a few minutes [indicates], where they were holding Muslims. MR. HARMON: For the record, Captain Egbers has pointed to a small building. It appears to be a (20)white dot on the road leading from the main road to Nova Kasaba, the road then leads from that main road to the school, there is a small white building in the centre of the page.
• Q.: Now, could you tell the Judges, please,
(25)Captain Egbers, your observations at that particular
• A.: Well, there was a fence, and behind the fence there were about 30 Muslim men sitting and waiting, and a few of them were wounded. One of them was wounded in (5)the belly and another one had a blue face. • Q.: How long did you remain at the location where you made these observations? • A.: A few minutes. They wouldn't -- in the beginning we couldn't enter the building, and on day (10)number 2, we were allowed to check in for a few minutes because we were complaining about the gunshots. • Q.: And then what happened? • A.: Later on that day, when I was making contact with Potocari, the school had been shot by a few rounds (15)of just a rifle. We don't know where it came from, but the Bosnian Serbs certainly reacted on this fire. • Q.: How did they react? • A.: Well, at first they fired a few mortars; then they fired with their machine-guns on top of their (20)APCs; and then they took out two boys from this building and forced them as a shield towards, they thought, where the firing was coming from. • Q.: Were these boys Muslim boys? • A.: Yes, they were, sir. (25)
• Q.: Did you see these boys return later?
• Q.: Okay. Now, at some point in time, did a man (5)arrive at this location who was identified as Colonel Beara? • A.: Yes, sir. He drove in a normal, personal car, and I approached him with my letter of complaint, as you call it that way. I introduced myself. I told (10)him that we were held at a location and that we had to go back to Potocari to escort other convoys, and I asked him whether he could take care of the fact that we could be brought back to Potocari or escorted back to Potocari safely. (15) • Q.: What happened then? • A.: He said he would look into the matter and he would contact us through this Major Zoran. • Q.: Were you later contacted by Major Zoran?
• A.: No, we were not. We were just -- we had to
(20)stay there, and he didn't say anything to us, so that's
when I negotiated with Potocari, our headquarters,
because of the fact that we were dressed in green
T-shirts and green trousers, and the Bosnian Serbs were
wearing our gear, our blue helmets, our armoured
(25)vests. So there was no difference between peacekeepers
• Q.: Were you transported back to Potocari in a Bosnian Serb military vehicle? • A.: I was, sir. • Q.: Now -- (10) • A.: It was a BOV, with four large wheels, and they were bringing us back towards the same road, of course, towards Bratunac and then to the enclave. • Q.: When you say "BOV," I'm not familiar with that term, and I don't think the Judges are either. (15)Could you explain what a BOV is? • A.: It's a troop transportation vehicle, armed -- armoured, with a machine-gun on top, with no -- with four big wheels they use to transport their troops.
• Q.: Now, in route back to Potocari, did you take
(20)the same route up through Nova Kasaba, Konjevic Polje,
past Sandici, Kravica, Glogova, Bratunac, and then to
Potocari. Let me repeat for the benefit of the court
reporter. Did you travel along the route that took you
past Nova Kasaba, Konjevic Polje, Sandici, Kravica,
(25)Glogova, Bratunac, and then to Potocari?
• Q.: Could you describe to -- first of all, let me ask you this question: Did you pass the football field at Nova Kasaba again? (5) • A.: Yes, I did. • Q.: Could you describe to the Judges what you saw at that particular location? • A.: There were no men left on the football field. The football field was empty. (10) • Q.: Did you make any other significant observations in route back to Potocari that you can tell the Judges about? • A.: I saw a lot of luggage burning on the side of the road. I saw a lot of infantry facing the woods (15)where the Muslims -- they thought the Muslims should be. And I saw one dead body lying on the road we were travelling on. • Q.: Are you able to describe more fully the dead body? (20) • A.: It was an old man, still carrying his rucksack, laying on his back in the middle of the road. • Q.: All right. Thank you very much, Captain Egbers. (25)
MR. HARMON: Your Honours, I've concluded my
JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. Harmon. Captain Egbers, you will now be asked to answer the questions of the Defence counsel. (5) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Good morning, Your Honours, my learned friends. • CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Petrusic: • Q.: Good morning, Captain Egbers. On the 8th of July, late in the afternoon, you received the order and (10)started for Srebrenica and the observation post. • A.: Yes, I did. • Q.: You set off to identify, to establish, the line of confrontation between the Serb and the Muslim forces. (15) • A.: That was my first -- that's correct. • Q.: And at a distance of some four kilometres before that place, Muslim soldiers threw hand grenades at your vehicles. • A.: That's correct as well. (20) • Q.: After that you headed for the Bravo Company in Srebrenica. • A.: That's correct, sir. • Q.: And there you could see very well what was happening in the area of Srebrenica. (25)
• A.: Well, that's not totally correct. At first I
• Q.: That evening you spotted a number of groups of Muslim combatants. (15) • A.: I did, sir. • Q.: They were wearing camouflage or Ukrainian uniforms. • A.: Well, a few were wearing pieces of Ukrainian uniforms, but most of them were dressed in civilian (20)clothes. • Q.: And your battalion was also a part of the UN mission, wasn't it, the Dutch Battalion? • A.: The Dutch battalion was a part of UNPROFOR, certainly. (25)
• Q.: No, my question was about the Ukrainian
• A.: It did. • Q.: As to the armament of those groups, or rather (5)Muslim soldiers that you could see, they were carrying automatic rifles, AK-47s, and machine-guns, weren't they? • A.: They were Muslim fighters who were carrying those guns you've described. (10) • Q.: Captain Egbers, yesterday in your testimony you mentioned anti-tank weapons. Are these weapons RPG-7s? Is that what you meant? • A.: Yesterday I testified that when I entered the marketplace, there were anti-tank weapons and those (15)weapons were called RPG-7s. • Q.: All these happenings you describe now happened on the 8th of July. Now, on the 9th of July, you received the order from your command to provide support for the remaining four vehicles that you had. (20) • A.: Yes. On the 9th of July I was ordered to support the four APCs who were on the marketplace in Srebrenica. • Q.: As you were leaving that position, the Muslim soldiers opened fire on you, didn't they? (25)
• A.: Yes, that's true. One of the gunners, we had
• Q.: Captain Egbers, the Medecins Sans Frontiers (5)evacuated the Srebrenica hospital. Could you tell us if that happened on the 10th of July? • A.: Well, it happened on the same day the two Dutch F-16s attacked [sic] the enclave and we could go back to Bravo Company. And before the Bosnian Serbs (10)entered the city, we took the sick and ill from the hospital in our vehicle and drove with them towards Potocari. JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. You said two Dutch F-16s attacked the enclave -- (15) • A.: No, they supported us, that is, close air support. JUDGE RIAD: It says here "Two Dutch F-16s attacked the enclave."
• A.: That was not correct, sir. They carried out
(20)a close air support mission. And on that day, when
that was finished, we could go to the compound of the
Bravo Company, and then at that time Doctors Without
Borders, should I call it this way, they told us or
they asked us whether it was safe to go to the hospital
(25)and take the patients, and asked us to move those
JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] • Q.: And apart from this close air support that (5)day, was that the only air support that was provided in the protected area? • A.: It was the only thing I saw. • Q.: In your vehicle you drove some sick. Do you mean the patients who were sick and lying there in the (10)Srebrenica hospital, or were there amongst them also wounded people, people who had sustained woundings during one of those days, as of the 6th of July onwards? • A.: There were only sick people, as well as (15)mentally ill people, as well as women who were carrying babies on my vehicle, and I don't know whether there were wounded from shelling which happened from the 6th of July. • Q.: Captain Egbers, in your testimony you said (20)that the Serbs -- the Serb soldiers had surrounded the enclave so tightly that even your colleagues, your officers, fellow officers who had been on leave, could not come back to the enclave, that the Serbs would not let them get into the enclave. (25)
• A.: That's correct, sir.
• A.: I don't know, sir. • Q.: But the members of these two British special (5)units, do you know, were you aware, of their presence in the enclave? • A.: Yes, they were in the enclave, sir. • Q.: Let me just clarify. To my previous question you said that you did not know whether they were (10)members -- whether they were part of the peace corps, of the peace force. • A.: Well, they were staying at HQ from DutchBat. So they were wearing blue helmets, but of course they were not from our battalion. But they were in the (15)enclave. • Q.: And they arrived in the enclave right before the 9th of July, didn't they, on the eve of the 9th of the July? • A.: They were for a few months in the enclave. (20)They were -- a few months we've spoken to them, I'd seen them a lot.
• Q.: Captain Egbers, your conversation with Major
Malinic -- no. Let me rephrase this.
Did Major Malinic wait for Colonel Beara to
(25)authorise your departure from Nova Kasaba?
• Q.: So that superior was Colonel Beara. • A.: I think that this colonel was the chief, the (5)boss, of this Major Zoran. That's what he told me. • Q.: So you saw Colonel Beara, you talked to him. Did you happen to see the emblem, the insignia that he had, if he had any on his uniform? • A.: He only wore a green infantry uniform, with (10)his rank in yellow on it. He didn't have any wolf emblems or anything like that on his uniform, sir. • Q.: You spent quite a long time there, the whole afternoon and the next day. Could you perhaps draw some conclusions as to what unit Major Malinic came (15)from and thereby Colonel Beara too? What unit? Was that some special unit that they belonged to?
• A.: I only saw German Shepherd dogs that were at
the school. I've talked to this Major about his unit,
and he told me that he was in charge of three
(20)battalions that normally would surround Sarajevo, and
that he had to take one battalion and report, or
something like that, at the surroundings of
Srebrenica. He was very well informed. On his desk
was a map of the enclave, and all the observation posts
(25)were on this map. He knew what he was doing there.
• Q.: Captain Egbers, in your testimony you said that the Bosnian Muslim army was poorly dressed and poorly armed. In your testimony you also drew certain (5)conclusions, since you are an officer yourself. And I should like to ask you something which has to do with those conclusions that you might have drawn. The Bosnian Muslim army was concentrated in Susnjari on the 10th and 11th of July and made a (10)breakthrough the encirclement and reached Tuzla, some 4.000 or 5.000 armed combatants. Could you tell us, from your point of view, that is, what do you, as a military man, think? How is it possible that such poorly organised, poorly dressed, poorly equipped (15)troops succeeded in making that breakthrough? How could it do that? • A.: Well, I think they gathered all of the weapons in front of the party who had left the enclave, and perhaps the Bosnian Serbs weren't prepared for it. (20)I don't know. But what I saw, perhaps it wasn't the head of the men who would leave the enclave, perhaps I saw what was behind it, and they were very badly armed, almost no arms at all, and very -- and dressed in civilian clothes. (25)
• Q.: Thank you, Captain Egbers.
JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. Petrusic. Mr. Harmon, would you like to respond? (5)Please proceed. MR. HARMON: With just a few questions, Your Honour. • RE-EXAMINED by Mr. Harmon: • Q.: You were asked by my learned friend about the (10)Ukrainian battalion being part of the UN mission. Within the Srebrenica enclave, was there a Ukrainian battalion that was part of the UN mission? • A.: No, sir, there was not. • Q.: Where did the Ukrainian part of the UN (15)mission quarter itself? • A.: It was in the enclave of Zepa, in the south of our enclave, Srebrenica. • Q.: You were also asked by my friend a question about your armoured personnel carrier being shot at by (20)the Muslims. I think it was, and correct me if I'm wrong, on the 9th of July; is that correct? • A.: It was on the first day that I had to go south and make contact with Captain Groen.
• Q.: So you were essentially at a blocking
(25)position as the Serb army advanced into the enclave; is
• A.: That's correct. But before that I -- because OP Echo and OP Foxtrot fell, the company commander in the south didn't know what was entering the enclave. (5)So he told me to take two APCs and try to find the line of confrontation without being taken by one of the parties. • Q.: Now, let me ask you, the expectation of the Bosnian Muslims within the Srebrenica enclave was that (10)the UN battalion was there for their protection; is that correct? • A.: That's correct, sir. • Q.: And as you took your APC from the direction of the southern part of the enclave, did you travel (15)with your APC, then, away from the southern part of the enclave, in the direction of Srebrenica? • A.: I was -- when I saw those 50 infantry men entering the south of Srebrenica, I reported it to Captain Groen and he told me, "Go into your APCs and (20)try to support them." And I drove away from the Muslims. Perhaps they thought that I was going to Potocari, or anything else, and that I would leave them alone.
• Q.: In thinking about why you received fire from
(25)the Muslims, do you have an opinion as to why they
• A.: I couldn't explain to them why I was leaving. I had to leave immediately to support the other four APCs, and that's why they thought that I was (5)leaving them alone and we were finishing the blocking positions. But we didn't, we went to the city of Srebrenica. So that's why I think the lack of communication, and they were angry, and of course they were disappointed about what was going on in the south (10)of the enclave, that they would fire a few rounds at us. • Q.: So they were angry at you because they thought you were abandoning them at the southern part of the enclave; is that correct? (15) • A.: That's correct, sir. • Q.: All right. Thank you very much, Captain Egbers. MR. HARMON: I have no additional questions, Your Honours. Thank you. (20) JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. Harmon. Judge Wald, would you like to ask your questions, if you have some. • QUESTIONED by the Court:
JUDGE WALD: Captain Egbers, I want to go
(25)back to the incident that Sergeant Mulder reported to
(10) • A.: He did not succeed. Fortunately no one left the woods. JUDGE WALD: So therefore he never was put in the position of having to shoot any of them if they did come out, even though you reported that that was what (15)he had been told he had to do. • A.: That's correct, ma'am. JUDGE WALD: Did he give you any idea of any specific threats that were held over his head to do that, such as whether or not they suggested they would (20)kill him if he didn't do that? • A.: He did, ma'am. They pointed their AK-47s all the time at us. JUDGE WALD: And said, "You do this or else." (25)
• A.: Yes, ma'am.
• A.: No, ma'am, nobody. Only he. (5) JUDGE WALD: Only he was asked. Okay. Thank you. JUDGE RIAD: Judge Wald. JUDGE WALD: That's all. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. (10)Captain Egbers, just to throw some more light on your already clear testimony, I'd like to ask you just a few questions. Just to start where Judge Wald stopped concerning Sergeant Mulder's incident. Did you report (15)this to the higher authorities, to the commanders of the Bosnian Serb divisions? • A.: I had contact with this Major Zoran, and I complained to him about this action. And it was all filled out on this written statement, in (20)Bosnian/Serb -- so it was in Bosnian/Serb. I complained to him about this incident, but also about the stolen gear from the UN and the use of it by the Bosnian Serbs.
JUDGE RIAD: Yes. Was there any action taken
(25)by them to restore what was stolen or to answer you
• A.: No, sir. (5) JUDGE RIAD: Was it repeated or was it the only incident, where you were being used to -- either your things taken, your clothes taken, or used to bring -- to pull out the Muslims for any purpose? • A.: The vehicles that were stolen, that happened (10)two days -- during two days. The helmets and the armoured vests, those incidents happened all the time. And the Mulder incident just happened once. But total we lost about 12 or 14 UN vehicles, and APCs were used by the Bosnian Serbs. (15) JUDGE RIAD: Now, to go to the football field, you passed by it, I think, on the 12th, near Nova Kasaba. It was full of Muslims with their hands tied behind their necks. Was that right? • A.: I couldn't see whether they were tied or not, (20)but their hands were on their neck. JUDGE RIAD: Their hands were on their neck anyhow. All their hands were on their neck, or were just some people brushing their hair?
• A.: All their hands were on their neck, and they
(25)were lined up. So it was organised.
• A.: I did, sir. (5) JUDGE RIAD: That was a day later, two days later? • A.: One day later. JUDGE RIAD: One day later. Was there any sign of what happened there, where these people went? (10)Under the ground? Over the ground? • A.: It was almost dark and I couldn't see anything unusual on the football field at that time. JUDGE RIAD: No blood, nothing? • A.: I didn't see that. (15) JUDGE RIAD: You said you saw only luggage burning. Was it on the field or beside it? • A.: Not only on the field, but the entire road to Bratunac, there was places of luggage burning. JUDGE RIAD: Do you think that that was the (20)luggage of the people in the field? • A.: I'm sure about that. JUDGE RIAD: But you never inquired about where the people went? • A.: I did not, sir. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: And don't you think how many
• A.: I saw a few hundred men. JUDGE RIAD: A few hundred. Now, you also mentioned at a certain stage that two Muslim boys were (5)used as shields when they went out, but the boys came back. Was this a recurring incident, where they would use people as shields, Muslim prisoners as shields? • A.: I've only seen this happening once. I don't know whether they had done it before. (10) JUDGE RIAD: And how old were the boys? • A.: I think about 14 or 15 years old. JUDGE RIAD: They were prisoners. They were held prisoners. • A.: They were held prisoners in the house that I (15)pointed out. JUDGE RIAD: Were there many children of that age held prisoner? • A.: They were the youngest. Most of the Muslims who were in that building were around 30, 40, 50 years (20)old. JUDGE RIAD: But no women prisoners. • A.: No, sir, no women.
JUDGE RIAD: One of the last questions you
were asked by Defence counsel was about what you said,
(25)the poor weapons and the poor dress of the Muslim
• A.: I saw -- before the enclave fell, I was in the south and I saw there Muslims carrying weapons. (5)They were -- I saw four, five, or six machine-guns; I saw AK-47s; I saw, during the fall of the enclave, I saw RPG-7s, and of course they had hand grenades. Bosnian Serbs, however, had vehicles, with anti-aircraft guns, had troop transportations, (10)ambulances. Every soldier had a weapon. Not all the Muslims carried weapons because there were no weapons for all the men in the enclave. But I saw some Bosnian Muslims, groups, who were armed with the weapons I just told you -- (15) JUDGE RIAD: What weapons? Sorry. • A.: Those AK-47s, a few machine-guns, and this one piece of artillery, which never fired. JUDGE RIAD: Which never fired. • A.: Never fired, sir. (20) JUDGE RIAD: But there was a prohibition of weapon delivery from outside, wasn't there? • A.: There was. JUDGE RIAD: For both sides.
• A.: No just -- the Muslims were not allowed to
(25)have weapons inside the enclave.
THE WITNESS: You're welcome. JUDGE RIAD: I think this would be the end of your testimony, and we would like to thank you very (5)much for your contribution. We'll have a break now, and if there are any exhibits, you are welcome to mention them. MR. HARMON: Yes. Thank you very much, Judge Riad. I have four exhibits I would like to tender into (10)evidence. Prosecutor's Exhibit 87, which is the aerial image that Captain Egbers testified about; Prosecutor's Exhibit 88, which is a photograph of the school; Prosecutor's Exhibit 89, which is a large map of the enclave, showing the Charlie Company and Bravo Company; (15)and Prosecutor's Exhibit 90, which is a small map showing the blocking position taken by Captain Egbers. JUDGE RIAD: Mr. Petrusic, any comment, or any exhibit you want? MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] The Defence (20)does not object to the exhibits tendered by the Prosecutor, and we do not have any exhibits to tender. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you, Mr. Petrusic. Thank you again, Captain Egbers. And we'll adjourn for 20 minutes. Thank you. (25)
--- Recess taken at 10.40 a.m.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning. For the record, let me just state that I will (5)resume my capacity as Presiding Judge of the Trial Chamber. Thank you to my colleagues who've enabled the hearing to go on. Witness, can you hear me? THE WITNESS: [No audible response] (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you. You are now going to read the solemn declaration that the usher will give you. THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the (15)truth. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you. You may be seated. Good morning to the interpreter, who is also under an oath. Witness, thank you very much for coming to (20)testify before the Tribunal. You are now going to answer questions that will be put to you by Mr. Cayley. Mr. Cayley, you have the floor.
MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
(25)Welcome back to us. Good morning, Your Honours; good
WITNESS: ANDERE STOELINGA • EXAMINED by Mr. Cayley: • Q.: Mr. Stoelinga, before we begin, we spoke (5)before. Between us, there is an interpreter, and there are a number of interpreters, so if you can try and remember to pause between my question and your answer, I will try to pace things quite slowly so that a pause naturally flows from my question. (10)Your name is Andere Stoelinga. • A.: That's correct. • Q.: You were born in 1973; is that correct? • A.: That is correct, too. • Q.: And I think you joined the Royal Dutch army (15)in January of 1994 on a two-year engagement. • A.: That's also correct. • Q.: And I think that your specialisation in the army was as a motorcycle dispatch rider; is that correct? (20) • A.: That's correct too. • Q.: You left the army in January of 1997 as a private first class, and I think you're now a student; is that correct? • A.: That's also correct. (25)
• Q.: Did you serve with DutchBat III in the
• A.: That's also correct. • Q.: Am I correct to say that in July of 1995 you (5)were the driver of an armoured personnel carrier from the Dutch Battalion, based at observation post Kilo in the enclave? • A.: Yes, I was. • Q.: Could you just rise from your seat and look (10)at Prosecutor's Exhibit 1E and just point to the Judges the location of your observation post in the enclave? • A.: Observation post Kilo is here [indicates] MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness has pointed to OP Kilo, which is located within (15)the southern portion of the enclave, and the witness has pointed this out on Prosecutor's Exhibit 1E. • Q.: Am I right in saying that on the 8th of July of 1995 your observation post was overrun by Bosnian Serb forces? (20) • A.: Yes, that's correct. • Q.: And I think in accordance with the orders that had been given to your observation post commander, you surrendered to the Serbs and you went with them; is that correct? (25)
• A.: That is also correct.
• A.: My personal armour, plus an Uzi. • Q.: And when the observation post was overrun, (5)what happened to that weapon? • A.: At first I took it with me, and then after 300 or 400 metres we had to stop and give our weapons away to the Serbs. • Q.: Now, I think Serbs escorted you from (10)observation post Kilo to the town of Milici; is that correct? • A.: That is also correct. • Q.: And I think that you, in fact, drove the armoured personnel carrier, the Dutch armoured (15)personnel carrier, with the crew of the observation post in it to Milici? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Can you just point to the town of Milici on the map in front of you. (20) • A.: It's right here [indicates]
MR. CAYLEY: Let the witness show that the
witness has pointed to the town of Milici on
Prosecutor's Exhibit 1E, which is a town in the
southern portion of that exhibit, on the road between
(25)Vlasenica and Nova Kasaba.
• A.: They took us to what they told us was an old police station. (5) • Q.: What equipment did you still have with you? You've said in your testimony that at this time you had lost your personal weapon. What other personal military equipment did you have with you? • A.: Everybody still had their flak jackets, (10)helmets, and personal belongings. • Q.: Can you tell the Court what happened to these when you got to the old police station at Milici? • A.: I had to park the APC. We got out of the APC, everyone, and there were several Serbs there. (15)They told us to give our flak jackets to them and our helmets. • Q.: What colour was your helmet that you handed to the Serbs? • A.: It was the colour blue. (20) • Q.: Now, at the old police station, how many members of the Dutch Battalion were placed there by the Serbs? • A.: In the beginning, only the crew of OP Kilo, and those were ten guys of ours. (25)
• Q.: How well did the Serbs treat you at the
• A.: The first time, as we stopped at the parking lot, they made us give up our flak jackets and our helmets. But after that, a commander of them showed (5)and he reassured us that nothing would happen to us. • Q.: Now, you were the APC driver. Where did you park your armoured personnel carrier? • A.: I parked the APC on a parking lot in front of the old police station. (10) • Q.: Did you notice anything about the APC over the next few days? • A.: After we had gotten out of the APC, three or four Serbs covered it with a plastic cover so it wouldn't be able to be seen from the air. (15) • Q.: I think around the 12th or 13th of July, you were actually joined by the crew of observation post Charlie; is that correct? • A.: That is correct. • Q.: So how many Dutch soldiers altogether were (20)there at the police station by this time? • A.: About 20, because I don't remember the exact number of OP Charlie. • Q.: Do you recall what date OP Charlie joined you? (25)
• A.: It was after five days, I believe, that we
• Q.: And you were there on the 8th of July, so it would have been the 13th of July or thereabouts. • A.: Approximately. (5) • Q.: Now, after OP Charlie joined you, I want you to recall a time when you were sitting by a river, cooling your feet, it was a hot day, with members, other Dutch Battalion soldiers, and this was a river near to the police station. Can you tell the Judges (10)what you saw from that location? • A.: While we were sitting there, on the other side of the river there was a road, and on that road there were driving buses and trucks. And in the buses and in the trucks there were only females and (15)children. And there were little convoys, in the beginning, led by a military vehicle of the UN, but after a few hours, there were no vehicles of the UN anymore with them. • Q.: So I'm right in saying that you saw a number (20)of convoys with women and children on board. The first convoys that you saw had an escort with them from the DutchBat; is that correct? • A.: That is correct.
• Q.: And then the later convoys that you saw, they
(25)had no escort with them at all; is that what you
• A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, I think on the 15th of July, you were told, all of the DutchBat soldiers at the police (5)station, to get onto a bus; is that correct? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Who accompanied you in that bus? • A.: There was one Serb who accompanied us, and the driver was a civilian. (10) • Q.: You say there was one Serb who accompanied you. Who was this Serb? • A.: It was one of the guys of the -- who was also every day at the old police station. • Q.: Was he armed? (15) • A.: Yes, he had his AK with him. • Q.: And by that, you mean an AK-47. • A.: A 47. • Q.: Was he in a military uniform? • A.: Yes, he was. (20) • Q.: Now, can you describe to the Judges the journey that you took from Milici? • A.: As we moved, we went from Milici to the north --
• Q.: If you could rise, Mr. Stoelinga, and just
(25)show the Judges.
• Q.: If you can just wait one moment. MR. CAYLEY: The witness is indicating on (5)Prosecutor's Exhibit 1E that the bus he was on drove north, from Milici, up towards Nova Kasaba and Konjevic Polje. • Q.: If you can sit now. Let's talk about the first part of that journey. Can you describe to the (10)Judges what you saw? • A.: The bus was driving in the beginning quite fast, but after a while, there was a convoy of tanks and other APC vehicles of the Serbs in front of us. The bus driver tried to get past them, but it didn't (15)work so he had to slow down and we had to follow the convoy. • Q.: Now, on these tanks and APCs, could you see any soldiers at all? • A.: There were several soldiers who were sitting (20)on the vehicles, and other gear. Some bicycles. • Q.: Can you describe to the Judges how the Serb soldiers that you saw sitting on these vehicles, how they were dressed?
• A.: Some of them were -- most of them had their
(25)own uniforms, but some of them were wearing the Dutch
• Q.: Now, when you are referring to these (5)individuals sitting on vehicles, you're referring to the armoured personnel carriers and the tanks that you saw travelling in front of you. Do you recall approximately how many tanks and armoured personnel vehicles were in front of you on this road? (10) • A.: It's difficult to say because they were driving in front of us, but it was between 10 and 15 vehicles. • Q.: Now, while you were driving along this road, did you see any other military personnel? (15) • A.: Yes. Alongside the road there were small groups of Serbs, about two and three, and they were sitting on the side of the road, and it looked like they were having a break, in small groups. And in total, maybe 30 or 40 men. (20) • Q.: Can you describe their appearance to the Judges? • A.: Well, they were sitting -- they were lying down a little bit, like they had been tired and now had the first time to rest. (25)
• Q.: Now, I think when you got to the junction
• A.: [Indicates] (5) MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness is indicating on Prosecutor's Exhibit 1E that he took a route which went right at a T-junction, towards the town of Bratunac, after the town, village, of Nova Kasaba. (10) • Q.: Now, can you explain to the Judges and describe to them the journey that the bus took immediately after it entered the road to Bratunac. • A.: Would you please repeat the question. • Q.: You've just described to the Judges, using (15)your finger, that the bus you were on turned right on the road towards Bratunac. Can you describe to the Judges that journey, what you saw from where you were sitting on the bus? • A.: In the beginning -- at the first point, the (20)Serb who was driving alongside of the bus, he reacted really nervous. He tried to load his weapon, which he didn't succeed in. Then he tried to do it with his feet. And that was a very nervous reaction by him. At that point we thought that maybe something was wrong -- (25)
• Q.: If you could just stop there for a moment.
• A.: It was the soldier who was in the bus. (5) • Q.: Please carry on. • A.: At a given point we smelled something. It was a smell I didn't recall at that point, but everybody knew that something was going to happen. And at that point we saw a big truck, about -- just a big (10)truck with a container on top of it. That container was standing on the right side of the road, I was in the bus on the right side, and the bus overtook the still standing -- the truck which was standing still. I had a good look to the right and saw in the (15)container, on the -- I couldn't look inside the container because it was too high, but I could see the bodies which were in them. • Q.: Now, Mr. Stoelinga, do you recall how large the container or bucket on the back of this truck was? (20) • A.: Well, it was a regular truck, so in my recollection, it was about five to six metres long and about two and a half metres wide and about one and a half metres deep.
• Q.: Now, you say that you could see bodies. You
(25)couldn't look inside but you could still see bodies.
• A.: I saw about seven or eight bodies. Those were the bodies that were coming on top of -- which were coming out of the container. (5) • Q.: Can you describe the appearance of those bodies to the Judges? • A.: The bodies that I saw, they were all swollen and kind of bluish, and none of the bodies were -- all of them were just wearing trousers. (10) • Q.: Were they male or female? • A.: The bodies I saw were male. • Q.: Now, I know it's difficult to assess, in a situation like that, the age of the people that you saw, but can you give an approximate age to the Judges (15)of the bodies that you saw? • A.: I think the bodies were -- the average age of the bodies that I saw at that point were about from 20 years until maybe about 40. • Q.: Now, you say that they were wearing only (20)trousers, and by that do you mean that they were stripped naked to the waist. • A.: Yes. • Q.: Do you recall whether they had any shoes on? Do you recall? (25)
• A.: No. I'm sure that -- they did not have any
• Q.: Now, you gave an answer no. Do you mean that you can't recall? • A.: I can't recall. (5) • Q.: Could you see the nature of any injury on these bodies? • A.: No, I couldn't. • Q.: Now, you described a smell, a smell that you could not recall from your memory. How strong was that (10)smell? • A.: Very strong. It was -- it's a smell I won't forget. • Q.: Now, at the time, because of the level of the smell, the intensity of this smell, did you make any (15)conclusions about the number of bodies in that truck? • A.: At that time, not. • Q.: Did you later think about what you'd seen and what you'd smelled? • A.: Yes. (20) • Q.: And what did you conclude later on? • A.: My conclusion later on was that the container of the truck probably was filled with bodies.
• Q.: Now, after you passed this truck on the right
side of the road, can you describe to the Judges what
(25)you saw next?
• Q.: When you talk about a scrapper, you're speaking of a vehicle with a mechanical shovel on the front of the vehicle. Can you answer that question? We need to have an audible response. (15) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, when you saw this taking place, you saw this bulldozer and you saw a body on the side of the road, what did you think was happening? • A.: I thought that they were cleaning up the (20)street from -- they were cleaning up -- not cleaning up, they were getting rid of the bodies. • Q.: How did the other members of the Dutch Battalion on that bus react when they saw all of this?
• A.: Some of us reacted to themselves, they didn't
(25)look outside anymore. Others stood up and also tried
• Q.: Did you carry on looking? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, I think the bus then continued on for a (5)few hundred metres. And then can you describe to the Judges what you saw then? • A.: After that point, it was on the right side of the road, there were small piles of clothing, and on some piles there was a knife or keys and shoes. And (10)all the piles, they were lying in a direct line, with every one in a range of a distance of about one metre. • Q.: Just to make absolutely clear, for the record, you saw piles of clothing at one-metre intervals; is that correct? (15) • A.: That's correct. • Q.: And on some of those piles of clothing, you saw a knife or keys or a pair of shoes. • A.: Yes. • Q.: For how many metres did you see these piles (20)of clothing at intervals? • A.: For about 200 or 300 metres. • Q.: Were they placed in a messy fashion or were they neatly piled? How did it look to you? • A.: It looked to me like they were neatly piled. (25)
• Q.: Now, you earlier testified that you'd seen a
• A.: At the time I didn't put those two things (5)together. That was afterwards. • Q.: And what did you think afterwards? • A.: I believe that the bodies in the truck probably could have been the people who had to strip off their clothes. (10) • Q.: Now, I think the bus drove on for five or ten minutes, and then you saw something else. Can you describe to the Judges what you saw? • A.: I saw on the left side of the road, in about a distance of 200 metres, other vehicles that were (15)cleaning up. There was a shovel and again a bulldozer, and there was a truck also standing there. But the distance was too great to see something accurate. • Q.: Now, I want you just to go back for a moment to the truck full of bodies and the piles of clothing (20)at intervals, and I wonder if you could indicate on the map behind you, Prosecutor's Exhibit 1E, to the best of your recollection, where you think you saw the truck and the clothing on the side of the road.
• A.: To my recollection, it was between Kravica
(25)and Glogova.
MR. CAYLEY: I'll read it into the transcript. The witness indicated that the location of (5)what he saw was on the road between -- the road that runs between Konjevic Polje and Bratunac, and specifically what he saw was between the villages of Kravica and Glogova. • Q.: Is that correct, what I've just said? (10) • A.: That is correct. • Q.: I think you then drove on to Bratunac, and you were eventually evacuated out of the enclave -- sorry, from Bratunac to Serbia, and then on to Croatia and back home to the Netherlands; is that correct? (15) • A.: That is correct. • Q.: Thank you very much, indeed, Mr. Stoelinga. MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I have no further questions of the witness. I can now offer him for cross-examination. (20)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you
very much, Mr. Cayley. You may sit down.
I believe it will be Mr. Petrusic who will
cross-examine you. Mr. Stoelinga, you will now answer
questions which the Defence for General Krstic, that
(25)is, Mr. Petrusic, will ask you.
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Good morning, Mr. President. • CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Petrusic: (5) • Q.: Good morning, Mr. Stoelinga. Captain Groen was the commander of the Company B, wasn't he? • A.: That's correct. • Q.: Did he advise you that if Serb troops came and took over the observation posts, that you should (10)decide to respond depending on the situation? • A.: He didn't give that advice to me, but he gave that advice to the observation post commander. • Q.: I apologise. When I say "you", I mean the unit you belonged to. (15)So in that situation, your commander decided that you should head along together with the Serbs. • A.: I believe that our captain tried to make clear that -- he wasn't at the scene at that time, so he didn't know what was going on. And he gave the (20)observation post commanders, who had the best insight into the situation, the choice. • Q.: So was it the commander of the observation post then?
• A.: The commander of our observation post decided
(25)to go along with the Serbs.
• A.: We had been under fire by an artillery piece (5)for six hours, and the guys -- the Serbs who overtook our observation post didn't use firing weapons. • Q.: Mr. Stoelinga, are you aware that at the place where you saw that truck with the container that you testified about, that is, whether any fighting had (10)taken place between the Serb and Muslim forces? Were you aware of that? • A.: I'm not aware of any fights in that part of the enclave. • Q.: Mr. Stoelinga, you were a soldier at the (15)time. Do you know what it means to take care of the area, to sweep the area, to clean the area? • A.: In what way do you mean "to clean the area"? • Q.: After a combat, after a battle. • A.: After a battle I think it's common sense to (20)get the people who were killed together and try to bury them. • Q.: Mr. Stoelinga, thank you. I have no further questions.
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] Thank you,
(25)Mr. President.
(5) MR. CAYLEY: Just a couple, Mr. President. Thank you. • RE-EXAMINED by Mr. Cayley: • Q.: Mr. Stoelinga, my learned friend Mr. Petrusic asked you a number of questions about these bodies that (10)you saw, and he asked you whether or not you'd seen any fighting taking place in the area, to which you answered no. Do you recall just saying that? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, his suggestion in the questions that he (15)was asking you is that the soldiers, the individuals that you saw in the back of that truck, those dead bodies, were combatants. At the time of -- JUDGE RODRIGUES: Mr. Cayley, excuse me. I see that Mr. Petrusic is on his feet. (20) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, in my questions I did not claim anything at all. I was not trying to lead or make any suggestions. And I'm objecting to the question asked by Mr. Cayley.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.]
(25)Mr. Cayley.
(10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. Mr. Cayley, you may ask your question. You understand what Mr. Cayley has just said. I believe that he's right, Mr. Petrusic. Mr. Cayley, you may go on. (15) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Yes. Mr. President, what I objected to was to what Mr. Cayley said, that I claimed. I did not claim that. And that is what I objected against, but of course I shall gladly accept your suggestion. (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Cayley. Mr. Cayley, ask your question. MR. CAYLEY:
• Q.: At the time, Mr. Stoelinga, when you saw
these bodies and you saw this clothing along the side
(25)of the road, did you believe that these individuals
• A.: No, I don't believe that, because in that case I probably would have seen some weapons. • Q.: How did you think these people were killed? (5)What did you think at the time? • A.: I believe that they were executed. • Q.: And why do you conclude that? • A.: As part of the piles of the clothing and the shoes, and because they -- none of the bodies was (10)wearing any shirts or anything. And in combat, you would still be wearing something. MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President. I have no further questions of the witness. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, (15)Mr. Cayley. Judge Riad. JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. • QUESTIONED by the Court: (20)
JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Mr. Stoelinga.
Just to pursue the same question concerning the piles
of bodies in the truck, you mentioned that they were
swollen and blue. What did you mean by that? I mean,
swollen, were they fat people, having drunk a lot of
(25)beer or what?
JUDGE RIAD: So you just think it was the result of the climate and so on. • A.: Yes, and also because of the time. JUDGE RIAD: And the blue colour did not give (10)you any special impression of torture or anything? • A.: No. JUDGE RIAD: No, it did not. What about the clothes you found regularly distributed on the road? Were they military clothes, or were they, if you (15)noticed, just civilian clothes. • A.: They were civilian clothes. JUDGE RIAD: They were civilian clothes. And you mentioned that when you were, I think, sitting by the river, with your feet in the water, you saw a (20)number of convoys with women and children. First with an escort and then without an escort. Did you later know anything about these convoys, whether from the people who escorted them or without?
• A.: Later I heard that they probably were the
(25)people who were deported from Potocari to another
JUDGE RIAD: Did they arrive and where did they go? • A.: That I don't know because we saw them only on (5)the road for about 50 metres. So I have no clue about their destination. JUDGE RIAD: But from your colleagues who accompanied them, the first convoys, did they take them to a safe destination? (10) • A.: At that point we had no radio contact with our own people, so I don't know if they got to where they were going. JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned that you saw a body lying on the road. That was the only body you (15)said you saw lying on the road. • A.: It was the only body which was lying on the road. JUDGE RIAD: Was he dressed? • A.: No. He also was just wearing his trousers. (20) JUDGE RIAD: And no upper clothes. • A.: No upper clothes and no shoes. JUDGE RIAD: And no shoes. Thank you very much.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you
(25)very much, Judge Riad.
JUDGE WALD: Just a few. As I understand it, when you saw the bodies and you were returning toward Bratunac, this was July (5)15th; is that right? I think you testified to that effect. • A.: Yes. JUDGE WALD: So in other words, this was a couple of days after you had seen some of the earlier (10)convoys, when you were at the river. • A.: Yes. JUDGE WALD: How were you able -- I'm not quite sure I understand how you were able to see the bodies, the seven or eight bodies that you did, if you (15)couldn't see into the container and your particular vehicle was trying to pass the other side. I know it was on the same side you were on, on the right, but were the bodies you could see coming out on the top? How could you see them? (20) • A.: The bodies that I could see, they were coming out of the top. JUDGE WALD: They were, in other words, just overflowing. • A.: Yes. (25)
JUDGE WALD: Okay. And you said that the
• A.: Yes. It was for about 200 or 300 metres, and (5)then the distance between the piles, they were neatly formed piles. JUDGE WALD: Okay. And it didn't appear that they had been disturbed by anybody. They weren't slopping around. They were all still in neat piles. (10) • A.: Yes. JUDGE WALD: Now, Mr. Petrusic asked you whether or not, as a former member of the military, you were familiar with cleaning up operations after you'd had a combat, and you said you were because it was (15)customary after there had been a battle to gather up the dead for burial. In your experience, when that happens, do they take -- do they disrobe or in any way take the clothes off of the dead soldiers who have been in the combat, or do they generally bury them with (20)their clothes they had on at the time? • A.: I personally have never been in that situation, but I don't presume that people would be stripped of their clothing. JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.]
• A.: I believe it was around noon, about 12.00. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Around noon. Very well. So there was plenty of light and you really could see. • A.: Yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Another (10)question. You spoke about trucks escorted and other trucks. After you learned -- why were there some trucks that were escorted and why were there some trucks that didn't have any escort? • A.: As I heard, it was in the beginning, the (15)people in Potocari, my battalion tried to escort every group that was going out, but they were -- after a while they were pulled out of their vehicles, and at that point they said, "Okay. We can't accompany them anymore because we don't have enough vehicles or enough (20)people to get lost in that direction." JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I believe that you said that somebody had told you that. Who were the persons who explained that to you?
• A.: That was after we got back to Holland, and it
(25)was in the first debriefings that I heard that.
MR. CAYLEY: No, there are not, Mr. President.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] I should
(15)nevertheless like to seize this opportunity to make it
quite clear as to the identity of the witness, because
at the beginning of the transcript, I saw another name,
that is Martin Van der Zwan and I see that this is
Mr. Stoelinga -- no. I believe that this has put right
(20)already. It is Mr. Stoelinga.
Very well. Thank you very much. Thank you,
Mr. Stoelinga, once again. Thank you for coming to
testify.
Usher, could you please help the witness.
(5) MR. CAYLEY: He will, Mr. President, yes. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Right. In order not to make a break at a more inconvenient time, I think we should make a break now and we shall resume in 20 minutes, in an open session. (10) --- Recess taken at 11.55 a.m.
--- On resuming at 12.20 p.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good afternoon, Witness Van der Zwan. Could you please read (15)the solemn declaration that the usher will give you. THE WITNESS: I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Please be
(20)seated. Let me remind our interpreter once again that
he is still under oath. Witness, thank you very much
for coming to testify. You will first answer questions
that will be put to you by Mr. Harmon, as far as I can
see. He is representing the Prosecution.
(25)Mr. Harmon, you have the floor.
WITNESS: MARTIN VAN DER ZWAN • EXAMINED by Mr. Harmon: • Q.: Sir, could you spell your last name for the (5)record. • A.: Van der Zwan, Z-w-a-n. • Q.: You are currently in the Royal Dutch army, I can see; is that correct, sir? • A.: Yes, I am. (10) • Q.: What is your rank? • A.: I'm a Corporal First Class. • Q.: And you joined the Royal Dutch army in 1992; is that correct? • A.: That's correct. (15) • Q.: You served in the former Yugoslavia as part of two separate missions; is that correct? • A.: Altogether, three now. • Q.: Altogether three. Okay. Let's take the first two, if we can, Corporal. When was the first (20)time you served as part of a UN mission in the former Yugoslavia, and where was it? • A.: That was in 1993, in the part we called sector south, the Krajina, in a place called Benkovac.
• Q.: Okay. And how long did you serve at that
(25)location?
• Q.: Where was your actual physical presence? • A.: It was on the base, the barracks of the (5)Serbian army, in Benkovac. • Q.: Is that the army of the Krajina Serbs? • A.: That was the Krajina Serbs, yes. • Q.: When was the second time you served in the former Yugoslavia, as part of a UN mission? And if you (10)would just wait for just a moment. • A.: I forgot about that. • Q.: We talked about that last night that it's important that you pause because we speak the same language. So if you pause after my question. Please (15)proceed. When was the second time that you served in the former Yugoslavia? • A.: That was in 1995, in Srebrenica. • Q.: Did you serve with DutchBat III in Srebrenica? (20) • A.: Yes, I did. • Q.: What were your duties when you were serving in the enclave? • A.: I was a long-distance rifleman, and I served doing patrols or working on an observation post. (25)
• Q.: Now, I'd like to take you forward in time to
• A.: Yes, I did. (5) • Q.: Could you take the pointer, there should be a pointer in front of you, and could you turn to Prosecutor's Exhibit 1E and show the Judges where observation post Uniform was located? • A.: This point right here [indicates] (10) MR. HARMON: Indicating on -- I can't see it on the monitor, but I can see it in front of me and it indicates that the dot at the southern part of the enclave with the letter "U" next to it. • Q.: That's the location of observation post (15)Uniform; is that correct? • A.: Yes, it is. • Q.: Could you tell me and could you tell the Judges, was that observation post taken over by members of the Bosnian Serb army? (20) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Were you present in that observation post with a number of other soldiers at the time it was taken over? • A.: Yes, I was. (25)
• Q.: How many other Dutch soldiers were present in
• A.: Six soldiers; one sergeant. • Q.: Before the observation post was taken over by members of the Bosnian Serb army, was the area around (5)it, or was the observation post itself, shelled by the Bosnian Serb army? • A.: Yes. • Q.: How long -- what kind of shelling took place, and for what duration did it take place? (10) • A.: Well, it started out with some rockets going past our observation post. After a brief pause, artillery, and then mortars, small mortars, and then came the infantry. MR. HARMON: Now, if I could have (15)Prosecutor's Exhibit 96 and 93 taken by the usher to the ELMO. • Q.: Before I show you these exhibits, at some point in time did infantry soldiers from the Bosnian Serb army make contact with you and other members of (20)the DutchBat unit in the observation post? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Could you describe the first soldiers that made contact with you?
• A.: Yes. They were well-dressed soldiers. They
(25)were wearing camouflage uniforms with black chest
• Q.: All right. (5) MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, if you would place Prosecutor's Exhibit 96 on the ELMO, please. • Q.: Now, you've seen this picture in my office before, have you not, Corporal Van der Zwan? • A.: Yes, I have. (10) • Q.: Do you see the armlet type that you described in your testimony in this particular image? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Could you point out to the Judges what you're referring to when you say an armlet with a wolf's head (15)in it? • A.: This one [indicates] MR. HARMON: Indicating the badge and the insignia that's a circle with a wolf's head in it on the soldier on the right-hand side of the image -- (20)actually, not the far right-hand side, the second individual from the right-hand side. • Q.: Now, did all of the soldiers who first approached the observation post have this insignia on their arms? (25)
• A.: Yes.
• A.: Yes. Later on, after these people went (5)further into the enclave, there was another group, together with an officer, who came to our observation post. MR. HARMON: Now, let me have the usher please place the next exhibit, which is Prosecutor's (10)Exhibit 93, on the ELMO. And even though it's not a very clear image on the monitor, could you describe the circumstances of, first of all, observing this arm patch, and tell the Judges whether or not -- what you did in respect of this particular image that's before (15)you. • A.: This is the sign that was given to me by one of the soldiers that arrived at our observation post. They came through our fence, started talking to us, gave us some cigarettes, and I asked them -- I asked (20)that particular guy who gave me the cigarettes about these emblem, because I'm a collector of signs and emblems of the army. And when I asked him about it, he ripped this one off his sleeve and gave it to me as a souvenir. (25)
• Q.: And this is the photograph of the actual
• A.: Yes, it is. • Q.: What happened to you and members of your unit when this officer came up to make contact with you? (5)Did you remain at the observation post? • A.: No. • Q.: Tell the Judges what happened next. • A.: After the officer arrived at our post, he told us that we were given the choice to retreat (10)through the -- back into the enclave, to our own base, or to go with them to Bratunac, phone home that same evening, and fly home the next day. • Q.: Now, in your opinion or in your commanding officer's opinion, was it a viable option, a good (15)option, to go back into the enclave? • A.: No, it was no option at all. • Q.: Why was that?
• A.: Because at that moment the fighting was still
going on, and the first group wearing the sign with the
(20)wolf on it went further into the enclave. So the front
line, the places where the fighting was going on, was
at that moment behind us. So to retreat we had to go
back through the fighting area to get to our post, and
prior to that, one of our soldiers died trying to do
(25)that. So for us that was no option at all.
• A.: That was Soldier Van Renssen. Yes. Yes. • Q.: And he wasn't part of OP Uniform, he was part of another outpost? (5) • A.: He was part of OP Foxtrot, the one next to us. • Q.: Did you accept the offer made by the Bosnian Serb officer? • A.: Yes, we did. (10) • Q.: I'm getting a little ahead of your testimony, but were you permitted to make that phone call that night, and did you fly home the next day? • A.: No. • Q.: Let me ask you this question: At the point (15)that you accepted to go with the Bosnian Serb officer, what happened to your weapons? • A.: The first group that arrived took our weapons. • Q.: Okay. What happened to your vests and your (20)helmets? Did they remain with you? • A.: Yes. We refused to give them off. • Q.: Did you then leave the outpost -- the observation post? I'm sorry. • A.: Yes. (25)
• Q.: Now, could you take the pointer again,
• A.: We took this road. This is observation post (5)Uniform [indicates], went into this road. MR. HARMON: Indicating, for the record, a road that leads from OP Uniform to the right of the large Prosecutor's Exhibit 1E, and then proceeding north in the direction of a town called Pribicevic. (10) • Q.: Now, at some point did you stop, you and your colleagues stop at a location along that particular road? • A.: Yes. • Q.: And what did you observe at the location (15)where you stopped? • A.: We stopped at a height -- a hill. There was a lot of military activity at that place. On the left side, behind us, at the side of some bush, there was a signal vehicle with big antennae on top of it. There (20)were some artillery pieces still firing towards the enclave. There was a tank, a T-55, some troops, soldiers, running around. • Q.: When you say a "signals vehicle", are you talking about a communications vehicle? (25)
• A.: Yes.
• A.: Yes. It was a military signals centre. • Q.: Now, you said you saw several pieces of (5)artillery. In which direction were they firing? • A.: In the direction of the enclave. • Q.: Inside the enclave. • A.: Inside, yes. • Q.: Okay. How long did you remain at that (10)location? • A.: For about two hours. • Q.: Can you describe the uniforms that were worn by the soldiers that you saw at that particular location? (15) • A.: Yes. There were several sorts of uniforms, mostly the camouflage -- the Serbian camouflage pattern. • Q.: What colour were the uniforms? • A.: Green, with camouflage spots on it. A lot -- (20)correctly dressed soldiers over there. MR. HARMON: Now, let me ask that the next exhibit, Prosecutor's Exhibit 98, be placed on the ELMO.
• Q.: Before it's placed on the ELMO, I'll wait for
(25)it to be distributed, before we place this item on the
• A.: Yes, I did. (10) • Q.: What did you see? • A.: I saw a couple of soldiers wearing the badge of the Krajina Serbs, the same badge as I saw for six months in 1993 on that base. MR. HARMON: Mr. Usher, could you kindly (15)place Prosecutor's Exhibit 98 on the ELMO. • Q.: Does that appear to be the type of insignia that you saw at this particular location? • A.: That's exactly the one. • Q.: Did you have a conversation with any of those (20)soldiers who were wearing this particular insignia? • A.: Yes, I did. They were walking in our direction when I saw them, and I was really amazed to see this so I said to one of them, "Is that from Benkovac?" (25)
• Q.: And Benkovac was what?
• Q.: Was the barracks where you had been housed in 1993, when you were serving in sector south? (5) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Did you get a response? • A.: Yes. He reacted, he smiled, and he said, "I'm from Knin." • Q.: How many individuals wearing the patch that's (10)depicted in Prosecutor's Exhibit 98 did you see at that particular location? • A.: I saw four. • Q.: Now, you said you remained at that location for a certain period of time. At some point in time, (15)did someone come to fetch you and your colleagues and take you to Bratunac? • A.: Yes. When it was getting a bit dark, a white Lada Niva, an all-terrain car, arrived, and an officer got out. He told us to get into our vehicle and follow (20)his car. • Q.: Now, I've shown you Prosecutor's Exhibit 28. MR. HARMON: And if I could have Prosecutor's 28/5.1 placed on the ELMO.
• Q.: Were you able to make an identification of
(25)that particular officer when you examined Prosecutor's
• A.: That's him. • Q.: So the individual that's now on the ELMO, depicted in Prosecutor's 28/5.1, is the individual who (5)came to your location and asked you to follow him to Bratunac; is that correct? • A.: That's absolutely correct. MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. Usher. • Q.: Did you follow that individual? (10) • A.: Yes, we did. • Q.: Where did you go? • A.: We went down the road and we went to a place called Bratunac, and we arrived at the barracks there. • Q.: Okay. Did it appear to you to be a military (15)barracks? • A.: Absolutely. • Q.: After arriving at the barracks, did this individual, who was in Prosecutor's 28/5.1, remain with you? (20) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Did you see another individual -- or I should say -- I withdraw that question. Were you introduced to another individual from the Bosnian Serb army at that location, who you can identify by name? (25)
• A.: Yes. We were brought to a room. A man was
• Q.: Now, did you see this man in Prosecutor's 28/5.1 and Major Nikolic again during the period of (5)your captivity? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Did you see them together? • A.: Yes. • Q.: How many times did you see the man in (10)Prosecutor's 28/5.1 and Major Nikolic during the period of your captivity? • A.: About four times together. • Q.: Corporal Van der Zwan, you told me that you're not very good at dates, so I'm going to try to (15)put you at certain locations by certain events, okay? • A.: Okay. • Q.: Let me ask you, how long did you remain, first of all, at the barracks? • A.: For a couple of hours. (20) • Q.: Where did you go next? • A.: Hotel Fontana. • Q.: Now, to the best of your recollection, how long did you remain at the Hotel Fontana? • A.: Three, maybe four days. (25)
• Q.: How many other of your colleagues were with
• A.: Well, we started out with seven, and after a while we had, I think, about 25, maybe 30. • Q.: Now, at some point in time during your stay (5)at the Hotel Fontana, did you see General Mladic at the Hotel Fontana? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Did you see your commanding officer, Colonel Karremans at the Hotel Fontana? (10) • A.: Yes. • Q.: How soon after you saw General Mladic was it that you saw your commander, Colonel Karremans, at the Hotel Fontana? • A.: Just minutes. (15) • Q.: Was Colonel Karremans accompanied by anybody when you saw him? • A.: Yes. There was a tall guy, an officer with him. • Q.: Was there anybody else with Colonel Karremans (20)and the tall officer? • A.: Yes. A sergeant major, but he didn't come to our position so I don't know who he was. • Q.: Did you see him, the sergeant major? • A.: Yes. We saw him walking by. (25)
• Q.: Describe him, please.
• Q.: All right. MR. HARMON: Now, I'd like to next put on the (5)ELMO, if I could, for your comments, Prosecutor's Exhibit 95, and Mr. Usher if you could also take with you Prosecutor's Exhibit 94. • Q.: I take it -- once again, when I show you these exhibits, you're not exactly certain of the dates (10)when these particular photographs were taken. But let me first of all put Prosecutor's Exhibit 95 on the ELMO, and ask you, please, Corporal Van der Zwan, can you tell the Judges about this picture? The circumstances under which it was taken and from what (15)location it was taken? • A.: We were at that moment at the Hotel Fontana. We were still trying to collect as much information as possible because that was the job we were doing. So we made some photos that we thought maybe would be useful (20)later on. This is one of them. MR. HARMON: Now, Mr. Usher, if you could take the next photograph, please, it is Prosecutor's Exhibit 94, and place that on the ELMO.
• Q.: Was this one of the photographs that was
(25)taken by one of your colleagues?
• Q.: Were you present when this photograph was taken? • A.: Yes. (5) • Q.: What does this photograph depict? • A.: It's one of our vehicles driving on the road next to the supermarket in town, the town of Bratunac, and there are Serbian soldiers on it. • Q.: Serbian soldiers wearing what? (10) • A.: Wearing our stuff, our materiel. • Q.: When you say "our stuff," what do you mean, our stuff? Can you describe it in colour, for example? • A.: Our blue helmets. One of them sitting on the back is wearing the blue tank helmet. (15) • Q.: All right. Now let me ask you, Corporal Van der Zwan, did you then leave the Hotel Fontana and go to yet another location in Bratunac. • A.: Yes. MR. HARMON: Could I have Prosecutor's (20)Exhibit 6/3 placed on the ELMO, please. • Q.: Now, Corporal Van der Zwan, could you take your pointer and first point to the Hotel Fontana in Prosecutor's 6/3. • A.: Here [indicates] (25)
MR. HARMON: For the record, Mr. President
• Q.: Could you point to the Judges the location where you were taken after you and your colleagues left the Hotel Fontana? • A.: Yes. [Indicates] (10) MR. HARMON: Indicating, for the record, Mr. President and Your Honours, a large structure that appears on the right side of that same triangle -- I'm sorry, the left side of that same triangle. • Q.: Thank you very much. Now, did you remain at (15)that particular location, Corporal Van der Zwan, until the time of your release? • A.: Yes. • Q.: At that particular location where you and your colleagues were detained, were there Bosnian Serb (20)soldiers billeted at that location or near that location? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Could you describe those particular soldiers and how they were dressed? (25)
• A.: Yes. They were -- some of them were wearing
• Q.: How many particular -- how many soldiers were in this particular unit, approximately? (10) • A.: Ten, maybe eleven. • Q.: Did this unit have, as part of its component, dogs? • A.: Yes. • Q.: What kind of dogs? (15) • A.: German Shepherds. • Q.: At some point in time while you were detained at this location, did you have a conversation with one of the members of that unit? • A.: Yes, I did. (20) • Q.: Could you describe that conversation, please?
• A.: It was the second day. We were in the school
building, late in the day. As usual, they came into
the building making a lot of noise. I was still awake
(25)at that time, so I opened the door to see what was
• Q.: Let me interrupt you there for just a second, (5)Corporal Van der Zwan. Was this a unit that, every day while you were at this particular location, went out into the field and engaged in some kind of an operation? • A.: That's what they told me. Yes. (10) • Q.: I'm sorry to have interrupted you. If you would continue with your testimony about the conversation you had with this particular soldier.
• A.: I sat down, next to the person in front of
their door, well, just tried to make a chat with him,
(15)and I saw that he was, well, tense. So I just started
talking about the dogs a bit, because I've got a dog
myself, and he was the one always feeding and taking
care of the dogs. So he told me that he was a dog
trainer before the war and his job was to take care of
(20)the dogs now.
And, well, he started telling me about the
dogs, that they used the dogs to -- well, against
people, and he started talking about one event, where
they were at a house in the enclave and they thought
(25)somebody was in the house. They went in the direction
• Q.: Did this soldier identify which of the members of his unit had committed those acts? (20) • A.: Yes. He pointed them out to me. He was hanging on the stairs completely drunk, a few metres away from us. • Q.: Was he identified to you in any way?
• A.: Well, he tried to explain to me that either
(25)his name or his nickname was "Butcher" or his
• Q.: Now, Corporal Van der Zwan, the next day -- I'm sorry. That evening, did you see any dogs around the compound? (5) • A.: When we were standing outside, smoking that cigarette, before I went back in again. • Q.: Describe the dogs that you saw and their condition. • A.: He was still referring to one of the dogs. (10)He showed me -- I pointed -- he pointed the dog to me, the dog that he was talking about in his story, and at the front side of his left leg, there was a bloodstain, and he showed me that the dog reacted to the sound of a gun loading. (15) • Q.: Now, this individual who was identified either by profession or by name as "Butcher", did you see him the next day? • A.: Yes. • Q.: What did you see happen the next day with (20)"Butcher"?
• A.: He came to the school in a sort of a truck,
and there was a calf in the back of the truck. He took
the calf out, went to the back side of the building,
and one of the guys with him was waving with his hands
(25)to me, like he wanted me to come in that direction. I
• Q.: Now, Corporal Van der Zwan, at some time, at a date unknown to you, you were released and so were (15)your colleagues; is that correct? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Was the date when you were released before the whole DutchBat III unit came out of the enclave on the 21st of July? (20) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Thank you very much, Corporal Van der Zwan. MR. HARMON: I have no additional questions, Mr. President.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you,
(25)Mr. Harmon.
(5) MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. • CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Visnjic: • Q.: Mr. Van der Zwan, you told us at the beginning of your testimony that the observation post (10)where you were was shelled. Could you tell us something more about that? Were the Serb troops aiming directly at the observation post, or was there fire all around it, or perhaps were they targeting some other observation post or posts? (15) • A.: They were not shelling at their observation post, they were shelling around it, so not directly aimed at their troops. • Q.: Did the Muslim forces hold positions nearby, in the vicinity of your observation post? Do you know (20)anything about that? • A.: Yes, they did. • Q.: And were those Muslim forces resisting the Serb forces when they tried to enter the enclave? Was there any exchange of fire? (25)
• A.: Yes, there was an exchange of small-arms
• Q.: Thank you. Mr. Van der Zwan, I should like to know, when you left with Serb soldiers from the observation post, until the last day of your stay in (5)Bratunac, did you feel threatened personally? Were you concerned about your safety? Did the Serb soldiers threaten you in any way during that period of time? • A.: There was no direct threat, but there was a lot of tension. I didn't feel safe. (10) • Q.: How? Why? Was that your impression, or were there some objective indicators of the lack of safety? • A.: Right outside their room, there were two guys standing with Kalashnikovs. We always had cameras around, asking us questions about military stuff or (15)propaganda things. To me, that's an indicator that we're not a guest of the Serbian army, as they told us, but more like we were being used for their purposes. • Q.: You described the insignia, the characteristic patches, that the soldiers who came to (20)your observation post wore the insignia of soldiers that you met in Pribicevic. But during your stay in the Fontana Hotel, did you happen to see the insignia, the patches, of the soldiers who were in the same hotel? Did they wear any characteristic patches? (25)
• A.: Well, I did see some soldiers wearing a round
• Q.: Mr. Van der Zwan, did you know if any other Serb units had a similar patch with a similar design as (5)the one shown on Prosecutor's Exhibit 98? MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Could the usher please put it on the ELMO. • Q.: The eagle with two heads and a crown, were there any other Serb units using this same coat of (10)arms, this same insignia, except the units from Krajina? Would you know that? • A.: Yes, I know there are several badges with the eagle on it, or the Cetiris. • Q.: The unit which was -- which provided guard (15)over you which was in the school, and the members of which you used to see while you were kept in the school at Bratunac, could you identify that unit? Do you know which unit that was? • A.: No, I can't. (20) • Q.: Did they have any particular patches? • A.: No patches at all. • Q.: And when you talked, did you find out who was their superior? Who did they report to? • A.: Yes. (25)
• Q.: And who was that?
• Q.: The Zastava 99, that is what he said. Did he have any rank insignia? • A.: No, but it was very clear to me that he was the commander by his behaviour towards the rest of the (10)group. • Q.: Mr. Van der Zwan, did any members of that group, of that unit, tell you about their previous missions, about where they had fought before that, before Srebrenica? (15) • A.: No. • Q.: And on the basis of your experience with Serb forces that you gained either in Krajina or during your stay in Srebrenica, could you draw a conclusion that it was just a usual rank and file unit, or was it perhaps (20)a special purpose unit, sort of? • A.: The way I saw it, they were absolutely a special purpose unit.
• Q.: Thank you. Just one question more. You told
us that you were at observation post "U", if I'm
(25)correct.
• Q.: And that combatants from the Bratunac Brigade came to that OP. • A.: I can't remember saying here that there were (5)people of the Bratunac Brigade being there. I only pointed out some emblems, but I don't know exactly from what brigade they were. • Q.: They were men who were wearing insignia, patches, as the ones shown in Prosecutor's Exhibit 93. (10) • A.: Yes. I got exactly that one from one of them at the observation post Uniform. • Q.: Thank you, Mr. Van der Zwan. I have no further questions. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Thank you, (15)Mr. President. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. Visnjic. Mr. Harmon, do you have any supplementary questions? Yes, please, go on. (20) MR. HARMON: Just a few questions, Mr. President. • RE-EXAMINED by Mr. Harmon:
• Q.: You were asked by my colleague, Mr. Visnjic,
which unit was guarding you, and it's unclear to me at
(25)which location Mr. Visnjic was referring to. In your
(5) • A.: Yes. • Q.: Your answer to Mr. Visnjic's question, as I understood it was, that the individuals that were guarding you were wearing camouflage trousers, a black T-shirt, a chest webbing, and had a Zastava 99 special (10)pistol. • A.: Yes. • Q.: Were the people who were guarding you who were wearing those kind of clothes guarding you at the barracks? (15) • A.: No. • Q.: Were the people who were guarding you wearing the kind of clothes you described guarding you at the Hotel Fontana? • A.: No. (20) • Q.: So when you answered Mr. Visnjic's question, you're referring to the people who guarded you at the third location where you were detained; is that correct?
• A.: I was referring to the people with the dogs.
(25)They were present during the night and in the evening,
• Q.: At the third location you've testified about? • A.: I'm talking about the school behind the Hotel Fontana now. (5) • Q.: Thank you very much, Corporal. MR. HARMON: I have no additional questions. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. Harmon. Judge Riad. (10) JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. • QUESTIONED by the Court: JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Corporal Van der Zwan. (15)I would like to ask you some searching questions concerning this extremely painful story you mentioned, or which the Serb officer told you and which you followed almost the next day. Now, this Serb soldier, it was an officer, I understood, told you (20)about the dog attacking the old man and then he killing the man, or the other one, and then I think the other man, his colleague, killed a man, and then he raped the girl, I suppose. Was that right? • A.: The same man that killed the older man -- (25)
JUDGE RIAD: Raped the girl?
JUDGE RIAD: The soldier was not in it at all. He was just a spectator, a witness of it. (5) • A.: He was the dog handler. JUDGE RIAD: He was the dog handler. Now, you, after all, were a United Nations representative, and was it so natural that he would tell you such horrible stories about what they were doing? Were they (10)boasting about it? Was it something to be proud of? Was it to frighten you? How did you understand this? And then the second day you said you saw the "butcher" bringing up the calf and then slaughtering it, cutting its stomach to show how he dealt with the (15)girl. They knew you were around. So were they -- not only unaware of your presence, but they didn't care whether you would see it or not.
• A.: Well, to start with, when he was telling me
the story, what I saw was, well, a colleague, a
(20)soldier, not being able to cope with the things that he
had to do. The guy was a dog handler, not a soldier.
He was being made part of a group, not as a volunteer
or not as a professional soldier. And, well, he just
couldn't take it anymore. He was talking about it and
(25)crying and, well, yeah, he just couldn't take it
JUDGE RIAD: Was it under the influence of a drink or something? • A.: No, he wasn't drinking at that moment. (5) JUDGE RIAD: He was sober and telling you a fact. • A.: Yes. It made a lot of impression on me. He wasn't bragging about it or ... JUDGE RIAD: But then when this "butcher" (10)came, this "butcher" was an officer? What was he exactly? • A.: I don't know. He was a part of the group. I didn't see him as in command or -- JUDGE RIAD: But this "butcher" was the man (15)who raped the girl? • A.: He was the one who was being pointed out to me, yes. JUDGE RIAD: And he was boasting about it and showing how he did it. (20) • A.: No, he was slaughtering a calf, but the guy standing next to him made a comment about it in the Serbian language, not addressed to me but addressed to him, so they were laughing about that.
JUDGE RIAD: As a natural event, which they
(25)would do naturally.
JUDGE RIAD: How did you understand it if it was in Serb? • A.: Because of me being placed on the Serbian (5)barracks in 1993 and having Serbs around me all of the time. At that time I picked up a lot of words and I'm able to get a lot of a sentence -- I can understand a lot of a sentence if I can hear it. JUDGE RIAD: Good. Now, the fact that they (10)were doing it and talking about it so naturally, did this mean that they were left free to do whatever they liked? The soldiers could do anything without any restraints or being held responsible? • A.: The way I saw the group working inside the (15)building, and when they were packing their stuff to go on a mission, it was a very independent group. They didn't get or receive orders from higher rankings. They worked -- it seemed like they were working on their own. (20) JUDGE RIAD: I mean, were they part of the army, or was it a band of outlaws? • A.: No, they weren't outlaws. JUDGE RIAD: They were part of the army. • A.: Absolutely a professional branch of an army. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: So they had commanders.
JUDGE RIAD: And in their behaviour, they showed that they can do anything. They were not even (5)trying to hide what they did. • A.: No. They were making jokes about it, Your Honour. JUDGE RIAD: And you said that the unit -- there was a unit where you were detained, I think ten (10)Serb soldiers, and they used to go every day to the fields for certain operations. • A.: That's the same unit. JUDGE RIAD: Did you understand what operations it was? (15) • A.: No, but they were taking dogs. JUDGE RIAD: They were taking dogs. • A.: Yes. JUDGE RIAD: Did you understand, more or less, how they were using the dogs? (20) • A.: That was explained to me by the dog handler. JUDGE RIAD: Which was? • A.: To cleanse houses or to track down people.
JUDGE RIAD: And when you were held by these
ten soldiers, your movement was limited, you were
(25)almost like a prisoner, were you? Or were you a free
• A.: We weren't allowed outside the building, not by the Serbs and also not by their own commander. But because of me having a bit of knowledge of the (5)language, my commander let me free. So I was allowed to walk to the main door of the building and to talk to the people. JUDGE RIAD: Did you hear anything else, apart from what you told us? Other people boasting (10)about what they did, and so on? • A.: Yes. At some time I saw an army vehicle, a TAM-110, driving in the other direction as the convoy of refugees, and I was asking to one of the guards what that was, and he told me that those were men that were (15)being -- that were going to be tried for crimes they committed to the Serbian -- to the Serb forces or to the Serbians. JUDGE RIAD: That's all? • A.: That's all. (20) JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Judge Riad. Judge Wald.
JUDGE WALD: Corporal, you said that you had
(25)previously served on a Serb -- or around the Serb
• A.: I cannot read the Cyrillic letters. I can only recognise some signs, so I can make out what it says. JUDGE WALD: So when you testified earlier (10)that after the people with the wolf patches came in, there were some other soldiers, one of whom gave you his arm patch because you had an interest in and collected arm patches. So there's a lot of writing on that arm patch, which is Exhibit 93, which appears to (15)say "Bratunik Brigada", but you were not familiar then with those letters, or you didn't ask afterwards when you collected the badge what it said? • A.: No, I didn't.
JUDGE WALD: Okay. You testified later on
(20)that you saw some other soldiers at a later point with
a patch which appeared to be the same as the one you'd
encountered in your earlier mission from Krajina;
right? You sounded surprised at that. What
significance, if any, did it have for you to see that
(25)soldier with the Krajina patch here in this new
• A.: Well, it struck me being very strange. JUDGE WALD: Why? • A.: Well, they were far away from home. (5) JUDGE WALD: I mean, roughly how far? Hundreds of miles or fifty miles? Just roughly. • A.: I cannot make a -- I cannot make up a -- JUDGE WALD: But you were surprised. You wouldn't have expected to see them in this particular (10)area; is that right? • A.: No, I didn't expect them to be there at all. I was very surprised. JUDGE WALD: Okay. Now, you testified, in answering the Defence counsel's question, that you were (15)pretty confidant that this was a special purpose unit that was with you in the end when you were being detained. I want to make sure I understood that. Was that the unit with the dogs, or was it just the unit that was there in either the school or the hotel or (20)some place else that was detaining you? Which unit did you think was the special purpose unit? • A.: I was referring to the people with the dogs.
JUDGE WALD: Right. And was it primarily
that reason that you thought it was a special purpose
(25)unit, the fact that they used dogs, and generally units
• A.: It's not only that. It's also the materiel they were using. JUDGE WALD: What? (5) • A.: They had very, very new weapons, good materiel, chest webbings. That all indicates that -- yeah, they were better equipped than the normal soldiers. JUDGE WALD: And in your conversations with (10)the former dog trainer, who recounted this sad story to you, did it ever come up what unit he belonged to? Did he mention it at all by name or designation? • A.: Not a name. He was talking about him coming from the area of Sarajevo. That's all I can say about (15)that. JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Corporal, I also have a few questions for you. If I have understood you correctly, you collect insignia. You (20)are almost an expert in military insignia, if I can say that. • A.: I'm not an expert, but I've got a lot of captions, signs, of the Serbian army, yes.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] When you
(25)saw the badge that appears on Prosecutor's Exhibit 98,
(5) • A.: They were wearing a new type camouflage uniform of the Serbian army, so the olive-green uniform with brown spots on it, stains on it. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Do you recall the date when the observation post "U" (10)was shelled, or rather taken over? • A.: No, I can't recall any dates at all. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] When an officer came in a jeep and when he told you to get in to go to Bratunac, how many were you? (15) • A.: We were with seven people, so six soldiers, the sergeant, and our own APC, our own vehicle. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So the same soldiers as the ones who, at the beginning, had arrived in the Fontana Hotel. (20) • A.: I don't understand that question, Your Honour.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] You told us
that at the beginning, at the Hotel Fontana, that there
had been seven soldiers, and after that between 25 and
(25)30 Dutch soldiers.
• A.: Okay. It's about the seven soldiers that I was working with on the observation post, and we were not transported in that jeep, we had to follow the (10)jeep, driving our own armoured personnel carrier, so our own APC. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you. Now I understand. Another question. At the third location (15)where you were, there was a man with a pistol, with a Zastava 99, and you said that according to his attitude he was a commander, and that it was judging from his conduct that you were able to conclude that he was a commander. Could you describe his conduct which made (20)you reach that conclusion?
• A.: Yes, he was clearly the commander because he
was giving out the orders to the other people, the
other members of the group. He was telling them what
to do, when to pack their stuff, when to get ready to
(25)leave, and he was doing that in a very sergeant-like
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You were able to understand a little the Serb language. Did you understand, did you hear the orders that he was giving? (5) • A.: I cannot recall that. Sorry. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You told us that while you were there at that particular location, you had seen a truck or a bus passing by with refugees. How many buses or trucks did you actually (10)see? • A.: I saw -- at that moment I saw one, and it was an army vehicle, a truck, with a container on the back of it, with a small window in it and some bars in front of it. I could clearly see that there were people in (15)there because the window was gone and there were some arms sticking out of that window. When I heard what was in that truck and what was going to happen with them, I directly went to my commander to tell that. So I don't know if that car (20)was being -- was going to be followed up by several more. I don't know. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Did you know who was on that truck? Were there women, children, men on that truck? Who was there? (25)
• A.: The guy that was standing next to me, the
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much for your contribution, Corporal. Thank you (5)for coming here to testify before International Tribunal. As far as I can tell, there are certain exhibits that need to be taken care of, Mr. Harmon. MR. HARMON: Yes. Mr. President, we would (10)seek admission into evidence of Prosecutor's Exhibits 93 through 96 and 98. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Visnjic, any objections? MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] No, Your (15)Honour.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well,
then. The exhibits shall be admitted into evidence,
and I hope that the registrar will take care of that.
Corporal, you are now free to go. Thank you
(20)very much. The usher will help you out of the
courtroom. Once again, thank you for coming here, and
I hope that you will be able to find peace and joy in
this beautiful country of yours. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Mr. Harmon,
MR. HARMON: Mr. President, we have gone through witnesses at a record rate today, so we didn't anticipate having -- ending the day without a witness. (5)We have a witness in the next order of presentation who is an older man who is a survivor of the Branjevo Farm massacre. We decided that we would call him tomorrow. We didn't want to put him through two days of this kind of testimony. (10)However, may I propose to the Court, we have, with the consent of counsel, earlier agreed upon four testimonies that were presented to a Chamber of the Tribunal in respect of the Karadzic and Mladic Rule 61 hearing. We have one tape today we're prepared to play (15)for approximately 58 minutes, and it is the testimony of one of a people, a Dutch soldier, who saw an execution in Potocari. We could propose, for your consideration, to play that tape for the remainder of the afternoon. (20)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes,
Mr. Harmon, I think this is a very good idea, and
congratulations for having heard your witnesses in such
a rapid fashion. This is starting to look like a
race.
(25)I think that it's a good idea to have a break
MR. HARMON: I was, Mr. President. To accompany the tape, we have French and English translations of the testimonies as well, which we will (20)present to Your Honours before the tape is played.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] This is a
very good piece of news. We have French translations
coming in at the same time, simultaneously.
So we shall have a 15-minute break, and after
(25)that we will resume with the video.
(5) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Yes, Mr. President. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much. Quarter of an hour of break, and then we will (10)continue with the video. Can everything be ready so that we can start right away after the break. --- Recess taken at 1.38 p.m. --- On resuming at 1.55 p.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] (15)Mr. Harmon.
MR. HARMON: Mr. President, we propose to
introduce into evidence Prosecutor's Exhibit 32, which
is a cassette of the testimony of Corporal Groenewegen,
taken at the Rule 61 hearing of Karadzic and Mladic, on
(20)the 4th of July, 1996. We would also submit
Prosecutor's Exhibit 32A, which is the English
transcript of that testimony, 32B, which is the B/C/S
transcript, and 32C, which is the transcript in
French.
(25)The audio booth, I'm told, is prepared to
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. Mr. Petrusic, you haven't said anything regarding the Exhibits 32B and 32C. Do you have any (5)objections to these? MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] No, Mr. President.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well,
then. So Madam Registrar, the exhibits will be
(10)admitted into evidence. Thank you very much.
We can start. If the technicians are ready,
we are ready too. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Excuse me, the audio booth. I'm sorry, General Krstic, I actually didn't realise that you were not here. Could we start from the beginning, please.
MR. HARMON: Mr. President, I would like to
(20)introduce as the Prosecutor's next exhibit a video
cassette of the testimony of Corporal Groenewegen,
which was taken on the 4th of July, 1996, in the Rule
61 hearing involving Karadzic and Mladic. I would also
tender three transcripts from that hearing;
(25)Prosecutor's Exhibit 32A, which is the English
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, I'm somewhat confused. You've already asked for these (5)exhibits to be admitted into evidence, 32A, 32B and 32C. MR. HARMON: I thought you asked me to repeat myself, since General Krstic wasn't present, so I repeated what I said in his absence. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, you're perfectly right. Thank you very much, Mr. Harmon. I also think that the Defence will state once again their agreement. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Yes, (15)Mr. President.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you
very much, once again, and my apologies to General
Krstic.
Now I believe that we are ready. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, I believe we have finished too, or haven't we? MR. HARMON: Yes, Mr. President.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well.
(25)Having seen this video, we shall adjourn the hearing
(5)
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at
2.58 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday,
the 7th day of April, 2000, at
10 a.m.
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