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Top41
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Heightened Tensions in the ENT forum
#358594 - 2002/11/20 02:17 PM
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Raz has started a thread in MA about this: http://www.trekbbs.com/ubb/Forum30/HTML/001044.html I think he brings up some good points and he's, well, right. Gusher/Basher tensions are so high that it seems like in almost every thread there's some snippy comment about gushing or bashing. If I had a dime for every time I saw the phrase "why don't you quit watching the show" I'd have a yacht by now. What can we do about it? Raz suggests warnings, but is that too harsh? Could we put something in the announcements about it? Or just go through every thread and give everyone making a snippy comment some "friendly advice?" Imput from anyone and everyone would be great! EDIT: A URL from QSF: Why Would an Enterprise Fan Bother With this Message Board at All? http://www.trekbbs.com/ubb/Forum13/HTML/005620.html  [This message has been edited by Top41 (edited November 20, 2002).]
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"Very occasionally, if you really pay attention, life doesn't suck." --Joss Whedon
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T'Bonz
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Admiral
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*sigh*I guess I am just not bothered easily. Opposing sides being snippy just don't make it over my radar. I suppose we could go in there and give a statement, but if they are on the right side of the rules, they CAN be negative. The only thing that I can think of would be if someone negative seems to be going into a thread for the sole purpose of being nasty to folks who like it, why then, that might be trolling. In all honesty, as a fan of the various shows, I just avoid the ones who disagree and don't got hot and bothered by it. Let's see what wS? and Mutai have to say about it. I don't mind stepping in and telling folks to play nicely, if it's that bad.
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Beware Romulans bearing gifts - It's the logical thing to do!
Here's to pon farr, when Vulcans go too far.
Live Long and Suffer! - Ancient Romulan Curse
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Kass
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There is a pretty harsh dichotomy in Enterprise. There have been loads of friendly advice and words of caution to be respectful of differing viewpoints. Enterprise seems to be one of those shows in which there is no middle ground--you either love it or hate it. From what I read (I rarely post there), it has gotten to the point where warnings might be necessary for a while. Friendly advice doesn't seem to be working. Perhaps all they need is a wake up call. Give the most egregious offenders a few warnings and the others will see they are crossing the line.
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Only real men need apply. No, you don't qualify. Next.
"you're one sick, sadistic little bitch, kass"--da Woim
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Top41
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quote:
Originally posted by T'Bonz:
The only thing that I can think of would be if someone negative seems to be going into a thread for the sole purpose of being nasty to folks who like it, why then, that might be trolling.
That's the thing: gushers go into a negative thread and snip at the bashers, while bashers go into a positive thread and snip at the gushers. Here's an example in Dennis's thread about what people like about Enterprise: http://www.trekbbs.com/ubb/Forum28/HTML/011951.html A few posts down, MPH comes in with this snide comment: quote:
Im convinced some people here are a sandwich short of a picnic.
And it's like that in pretty much every thread. Different opinions, but these drive-by potshots just give the forum a really unpleasant feel. And the users have been noticing. Here's another thread: "Are You Afraid to Say You Like Enterprise?" http://www.trekbbs.com/ubb/Forum28/HTML/012000.html I don't think this is what we want. My concern is with the number of people who are uncomfortable/unhappy with the atmosphere in the forum. There are more than a few of them. I don't think it should be an unpleasant place to go for either people who like the show, hate the show, or are in the middle.
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"Very occasionally, if you really pay attention, life doesn't suck." --Joss Whedon
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Top41
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^wordin has already chimed into the "Are You Afraid..." thread with this comment: quote:
They should be embarassed, not afraid.
It's this kind of nastiness that's turning off the posters in the forum.
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"Very occasionally, if you really pay attention, life doesn't suck." --Joss Whedon
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Kass
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That is a borderline troll, but with wordin, you have to weigh whether or not warning him is worth it.
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Only real men need apply. No, you don't qualify. Next.
"you're one sick, sadistic little bitch, kass"--da Woim
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where'sSaavik?
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"Friendly advice" isn't working. Posters are noticing, and some are being turned away by it. At the end of the day the members will determine the tone of the forum. Many of them are idiots and don't know any better. ENT is never going to be an ideal forum, but it can be better than what it is. Some confrontation is going to be a natural part of a board like ENT, espcially considering the quality, and lack there of, of the show. I don't think an announcement would do much good. We can post one, disallow replies to it, and bump it up from time to time. But the meat of what I think we should do is taking a harder line. About a year ago we had to put the boot down, kick out dumbasses like Slarus for awhile, and let things get back into balance. After that we were able to ease back and let them just be. Forum was pretty much ok for a long time. Where we are at now is a gradual kind of thing. I think it may just be a cyclical thing as the group memory fades and newbies come up in the ranks. Every so often we have to bring the boot down. Time to start again. The four of us need to be on board with this. Right now people are afraid to come into ENT. That's not right, even if it doesn't work, we have to do something. That something doesn't mean that we warn for every step out of line, but for anyone whose clear intent is to snipe at others (OneofRyan jumps to mind) their free passes of "friendly reminders" have run out. It has to come down both on the sniping bashers as well as the sniping gushers. Both sides need to understand that they have no claim to superiority in the forum. ------------------
Politics is not just about power and money games, politics can be about the improvement of peoples lives, about lessening human suffering in our world and bringing about more peace and more justice. -Paul Wellstone (1944-2002)
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T'Bonz
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Well, I'm on board. I have no desire to have folks bail on us. I'll start throwing out trolling/flaming warnings if needs be.
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Beware Romulans bearing gifts - It's the logical thing to do!
Here's to pon farr, when Vulcans go too far.
Live Long and Suffer! - Ancient Romulan Curse
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Mutai Sho-Rin
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Y'all are starting to sing my song. I've been swimming upstream trying to reign in the Enterprise extremists and caught hell from some of you for it. The hostility in the forum, mostly from about a dozen unmitigated bashers is draining the life out of it. If we Moderators don't do some moderating, the one-trick-bashers will be all that remains. Pump up your gonads (ovaries included!) and regain control. The warnings are the only tool we have when so-called frindly advice fails.------------------
"Into the sands of blood comes the Sho-Rin, master of the Mutai." Babylon 5 - TKO The self same Sho-Rin will attempt to be a Moderator of Moderation!
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Into the sands of blood comes the Sho-Rin, master of the Mutai. Babylon 5 - TKO
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1001001
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Trolling is an internet term that means you're not posting to actually start or participate in a good discussion, but simply to anger a lot of posters and start a large flame war. This would happen, for instance, if you came in to the 'Enterprise' forum to post a message saying simply "God, doesn't Captain Archer really suck?" instead of "I think Captain Archer needs to act more authoritatively."This is right off the Rules Page. My humble advice is to copy and paste it in a thread that reminds everyone that these are they rules they agreed to follow when they opened their accounts. What I've said is "The show is fair game, other posters are not". That's my "strikezone", so to speak. If there's anything we can do to help, let us know. ------------------
Don't make me go Admiral Janeway on your ass!
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Don't make me go Admiral Janeway on your ass!
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Neroon
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Said thread has been moved to QSF. THere has been an increase in complaint type threads that really do not involve a mod action. Whatever you can do to encourage the usage of QSF or private emails for such would be appreciated. MA is not meant to be a sandbox for every kitty-litter complaint.I have also closed the thread discussing wrlord's warning. Top41 has rescinded her warning, as is her prerogative, and now it is beocming a magnet for others to drop their tripe in it. No warnings issued, though I wanted. Oh I wanted to.  [This message has been edited by Neroon (edited November 21, 2002).]
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where'sSaavik?
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quote:
Originally posted by Mutai Sho-Rin:
Y'all are starting to sing my song.
Gee, and I thought I'd have to do some arm twisting.  Proposed Announcement: Subject line: Attention: PLEASE READ Ladies and Gentleman, the Enterprise Forum is for the discussion of the show, and all opinions are welcome. Those that love the show, those that hate it, and all of us in between. No opinions are privileged above others, all are welcome. To make everyone welcome, everyone is required to treat everyone else with respect. Lately, we the Moderators have noticed a decline in the level of respect people are paying each other. There have been many complaints from members about the tone and conduct of some participants of this forum. Unfortunately, some people don't feel comfortable coming here. Whether they have something positive or negative to say, they think they'll be sniped at, or trolled, or flamed. The whole purpose of the BBS is to provide a place where people can come and have some fun. When people can't have fun, there's a problem. In order to facilitate a forum fun for everyone, we've decided to take a harder line with flaming and trolling. In the past we've tried to calm threads with "friendly reminders" and other unofficial remedies. Unfortunately, this has not improved the tone of the forum. Therefore, we will not give as much lattitude in the future as we have been. Neither the so-called "bashers" nor "gushers" will be singled out, there's enough guilt to go around. It's not our intention to turn this forum into a police state or anything like that. But we will need to ask everyone to adhere to the Board Rules they agreed to support when they became members. This means that the sniping matches that have become a problem will no longer be tolerated. The "Basher vs. Gusher" war is over. This thread will be locked and periodically bumped to the top of the forum. If you'd like to discuss this action, please do so in the Moderator Actions Forum. Thank you.
Signed: T'Bonz, Mutai Sho-Rin, Top41 and where'sSaavik?
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Question Authority.
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Kass
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The announcement is well written, but is it the best tactic to take? I'm certainly not criticizing it in any way. I am curious if this kind of thing has been done before and if it has been effective or not. I am pretty sure it will draw the attention of sturmde, wordin et al and generate more than a few MA diatribes. If this is done, we just need to be prepared for the fallout.
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Only real men need apply. No, you don't qualify. Next.
"you're one sick, sadistic little bitch, kass"--da Woim
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where'sSaavik?
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^ We did something similar about a year ago, Kass. It wasn't fun, but it worked. As for wordin and sturmde, it wouldn't be the BBS if they weren't bitching about it. I can handle them. They're not regulars in ENT and they're not who I'm targeting. TK actually does more stuff in MISC than ENT, it's not as high on their priority list.
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Question Authority.
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Lord Garth
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I like that announcement. It addresses all the problems that plague the forum and explains how they will be dealt with.People should be able to go and discuss a show without having to be afraid of being dragged into a flame war they don't want to be involved in.
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RevdKathy
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I have a recollection that the Voyager forum was much like this while the show was being broadcast. I know I stopped visiting it because of the sniping - and I've almost never been in ENT for the same reason. Hope you guys can get it under control, though I take Raz's point that you will chase the roaches into other forums. *sigh*
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"It's difficult to control so many things in so little time"
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Neroon
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^^^ Good thing we have a disinfectant for them. 
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"To absent friends. In memory...... still bright" - John Sheridan, 'Sleeping In Light'
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Top41
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Hell, yes, I'm on board! (as if you guys didn't know that )I've already seen the beginning of the fallout in MA. 4 or 5 MA threads in the last 14 hours. More later when I'm more coherant.  The letter is good--can I bump it, too? I've never figured out if a mod can reopen a thread another mod closed (I figured the admins could). I guess I'll go try now. 
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"Very occasionally, if you really pay attention, life doesn't suck." --Joss Whedon
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Mutai Sho-Rin
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I composed a missive of my own while flying between Baltimore and Houston. I actually intended to bring it here for co-Mod assent (yes, I know, its a first ). Maybe we can combine the two.
_____________________________________________________The Difference Between Criticism and Gushing/Bashing Gushing (in this forum) will be defined as unrelenting love of the TV series, Enterprise, and attacking any person who offers a complaint about the show. Bashing, conversely, is unmitigated dislike of the show and attacking any person who offers a favorable opinion.. Criticism, however, is commentary about any aspect of the show, positive or negative, without attacking the taste, intelligence, sanity, etc of those holding differing beliefs. You can criticize, pro or con, any story line, actor, writer, producer, set designer, set security officer or studio janitor as long as you do so civilly and with some justification. Life in this forum has become very strained of late because of extremists on both poles engaging in personal assault against people holding opposing views. In our desire to remain in the background as much as possible, we Moderators have permitted this to get out of hand. Going forward, we will be taking a more activist position in reining in the personal invective. Since warnings are our only tool, it is what you will see. If you enjoy Enterprise tremendously, you are welcome here. If you dislike Enterprise, either compared to other Trek series, or in and of itself, you are equally welcome here. If your purpose is to belittle, demean, or otherwise attack people of different opinions, you are not welcome here and will be dealt with accordingly. If a handful of overt antagonists feel unwelcome and choose to leave the forum, or TrekBBS as a whole, it will be no loss to the rest of us.
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Into the sands of blood comes the Sho-Rin, master of the Mutai. Babylon 5 - TKO
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Top41
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It worked. Thread bumped.BTW, on the warning I recinded: I still think wrlord was wrong (and probably did deserve the warning), but I decided recinding it was best at the time. Had the statement been made after the "PLEASE READ" notice been posted, the warning would have stuck like a teen girl in the 80s to Jon Bon Jovi.
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"Very occasionally, if you really pay attention, life doesn't suck." --Joss Whedon
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Top41
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I like your statement as well, Mutai. Maybe it could be added to the one that's already posted? You could add in an edit for the parts that aren't covered in the main letter.I like the last paragraph, too. We need to keep in mind that the people who are being chased away right now are probably the more polite posters, and that's leaving us with the tough people who are still polite and the pond scum. The former will stay, I think; the latter can shape up or ship out.
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"Very occasionally, if you really pay attention, life doesn't suck." --Joss Whedon
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Top41
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I just wanted to throw out a big thank you to Kass, 1001001, Neroon and all of the other mods for being supportive of us here and in MA. It is appreciated. And to my fellow co-mods--you guys are awesome!!!
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"Very occasionally, if you really pay attention, life doesn't suck." --Joss Whedon
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Kass
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No problem. I really can't stand it when things are ugly. I never understood the compulsion to be mean or nasty. It is certainly not difficult to be polite.
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Only real men need apply. No, you don't qualify. Next.
"you're one sick, sadistic little bitch, kass"--da Woim
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It seems to be getting downright nasty in the MA forum now - kudos to Neroon for handling it, and the ENT mods for addressing the whole issue. I do have one question, though... please don't say we've reached the stage where [b]Wordy can get away with anything cos it's not worth the hassle of warning him?
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"It's difficult to control so many things in so little time"
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Top41
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^That's a good question, RevdKathy. He's good at wording things just precisely so that they're not flames, etc. He did leave the discussion after I told everyone to stop (his second friendly advice or whatever in that thread). I think I would have taken the plunge and warned him if he hadn't stopped. He was rude to me, but I probably wouldn't warn someone for flaming/trolling me.My sentiments exactly, Kass. Rudeness is completely unnecessary, and that's why I have little tolerance for it on the BBS.
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"Very occasionally, if you really pay attention, life doesn't suck." --Joss Whedon
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where'sSaavik?
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Good Post Mutai. I bumped up the announcement with a link to that thread. Hopefully, people will read and take heed. Sorry that we couldn't incorporate that into the original thread more neatly. Since it seemed like the four of us were in agreement and since we had the natural ENT night influx of posters, Bon and I thought it was a good idea to get a jump on them if at all possible. quote:
Originally posted by Top41:
I just wanted to throw out a big thank you to Kass, 1001001, Neroon and all of the other mods for being supportive of us here and in MA. It is appreciated. And to my fellow co-mods--you guys are awesome!!!
As Patrick Swayze might say, "ditto." [This message has been edited by where'sSaavik? (edited November 22, 2002).]
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where'sSaavik?
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The two announcements have been reposted in a new combined thread (since the old threads no longer exist).
Thanks.
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Quote:
Posted by where'sSaavik?:
The two announcements have been reposted in a new combined thread (since the old threads no longer exist).
Thanks.
Thanks, saavik.
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"Very occasionally, if you really pay attention, life doesn't suck." --Joss Whedon
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where'sSaavik?
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No problem.
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Question Authority.
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