One major point to consider here and one which is going to raise a great deal of further debate is the fact that nobody was building major ocean going craft at the time Mesoamerican civilizations were forming. If you guys check your history (not Joe Campbell or other fringe authors) you will find that the Chinese certainly weren't building them, the Japanese had small coastal craft with minimal storage, the Polynesians were still in the Indonesian region and wouldn't be attempting to build a major civilization for another thousand years. No body in Africa was building anything bigger than dug outs, the Phoenicians were just starting to make coastal craft, Greek boats were being built but no one is proposing the Olmec heads look Greek and Rome was simply a glimmer in a she wolf's eye. People did in fact walk to the New World and they did in fact bring with them a lot of ideas regarding the world around them. Everyone seems to overlook this fact. Just think how intelligent the first Americans must have been. They adapted to the New World very quickly. To assume they were devoid of any preconceptions regarding the world around them as they were migrating to the New World is stupid. Simply said, these guys and gals were far from brain dead. That's why Chines dragons and Mesoamerican dragons probably look a lot alike. They existed in the minds of the first Americans for uncounted generations and appeared throughout their history in the form of art. Even the Spanish who didn't start arriving in wholesale lots until early in the 16th century had problems. At first they tried to use galleys but couldn't carry supplies for the crew and supplies for the New World. This led to the creation of the galleon. The same holds true for any other boats which were roaming about at the time Mesoamerican civilizations began. They were all very labor intensive--big crews, lots of oars, not much room for anything but food and supplies for the crew. Take a look at those Polynesian craft--count the oars. It's a long way from Hawaii to the mainland. That's basically where the transmigration stopped. The Vikings made it, but the Polar route was short. Their boats were also extremely more advanced than anything coming out of the Pacific. Their deep "V" hulls were a major innovation which the Polynesians really never developed. The Polynesians did most of their travel on calm seas. The ocean from their closest point of contact was mild compared to the North Pacific route and much colder. I don't think they had the clothes to survive in the North Pacific if they wanted to. Columbus' boats were specially built after Portuguese designs perfected by Henry the Navigator's people in the 14th century. So the argument again holds that deep ocean going craft were not available to Atlantic coastal interests until the 14th century. Simultaneously most civilizations in the Old World at the time Mesoamerican civilizations were forming had their hands full with other problems. The Med was being over run by the Persians. Africa was in chaos as the Upper and Lower Kingdoms of Egypt battled and the Hittites were overrunning Asia Minor. China was being ruthless consolidated by the Han dynasty. And the list goes on. The one thing the Old World had and the New World could have really used was the potter's wheel. Potters in the Old World figured this out in the Paleolithic era (circa 14000 years ago). The people of the New World never saw this gadget until the Spanish showed up and they rushed to embrace it simply because you can make pots 80% faster with a wheel than the old twisted clay rope method the first Americans employed. Doesn't anybody out there read history anymore? This is the stuff of WRITTEN records, not the realm of fantastic speculation. Please remember, first and foremost, I am an underwater archaeologist and the travel you are speculating about is something I have spent the last 30 years studying. I would love to find evidence of contact. I'm sure that the first Americans could have made a substantial impact on old world civilization. They were, afterall, much more civilized. That's why a handful of Spanish thugs could wipe it all out. Paul -- *********************************************** Paul E. Pettennude, Ph.D. ________________________________________________ Maya Boats In total many examples of Mesoamerican craft remain, but most come from the postclassical periods. Of those which date back to the Classical Period (only three), all were dugout vessels made from large trees. The three survivors were of Chico Sapote, the hardest wood in Mesoamerica. The Classical period survivors were found in rivers. Averagely they were 40.5 cm wide and 3.5 meters long. We found a Postclassical vessel buried at Paamul (along the Yucatan coast) in the late 1970s which was estimated to have been 20 meters long (We only found 1/3rd of it). To look at the vessels which were in evidence I can refer you to the murals found in the Upper Temple of the Jaguars at Chichen Itza. They appear to be of the riverine size discussed above. Columbus reported sighting a large ocean-going canoe on his last voyage. While off the coast of Honduras in the Bay Islands he came upon a trading vessel which was around 15 meters long and had a small covered sitting area amidships. It is uncertain if this vessel was Mayan or Pech. Numerous Postclassical vessels have been retreived from the retreating waters of Lake Texcoco near present day Mexico City. Most are Mexica/Aztec. I found the remains of a small dugout last April in the Rio Candelaria River (southern Campeche), but it was only 200 years old. Paul Pettennude Maya Underwater Research Center