===Part-1===
Part2

(Posted on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/uttorshuri/message/1093)

Prelude:

[This is first part of two messages. In this post I wish to
focus on women's views and remarks on feminism issues. The
next one will focus on women on gender issues (like biological
and sexual differences b/w men and women etc, topics not
directly related to feminist debate, although are certainly
relevant). All the stuff in this message are direct quotes
from well known women of stature who have written or spoken
in print or other media. Even though some of those quotes may
be cited in some books written by male authors, the quotes
themselves belong to women. Exact references are provided.]

The word feminism conjures up a noble idea of the struggle by
women against the gender based discrimination, persecution, and
inequity that have been perpetrated on women througout history
and continues in various degrees in all societies still today.
Viewed in this very general and broad sense of the term
feminism, all sensible people, men or women are champions of
"feminism". After all discrimination, persecution, inequity are
morally wrong, regardless of whether the basis for such wrongs
be gender, race, language, religion whatever. Yet a 1997 poll
revealed that 70% of women do not consider themselves as
feminists although they agree with every major feminist
position (The exact source of this poll result will be quoted
later). What can explain this apparently contradictory result?
Feminism is not a simple unambiguous concept anymore, at least
in USA. There are some aspects of contemporary feminism that
many women do not agree with. That is why they do not wish to
be identified with a blanket label of feminist.

Here are the some of the various factions of feminism that have
been catalogged in the FAQ of alt.feminism and other databases:

Affirmative-Action Feminism
Amazon Feminism
Anarcho-Feminism
Christian Feminists
Constructionist Feminism
Cultural Feminism
Difference Feminism
Dominance Feminism
Erotic Feminism
Eco-Feminism
Equity Feminism
Femicommie
Feminazi
Feminism and Women of Color
Gender Feminism
Hegemonic Feminism
Individualist, or Libertarian Feminism
Lesbianism
Liberal Feminism
Libertarian or Individualist Feminism
Individualist, or Libertarian Feminism
Marxist or Socialist Feminism
Material Feminism
Matriarchal Separatist Feminism
Moderate Feminism
Pop-Feminism
Pod Feminist
Post-modernist Feminism
Pro-Family Advocates
Pro-Life feminists
Pro-Sex Feminists
Radical Feminism
Resenter (angry at men) Feminism
Survivor-Feminism
Total Rej (total rejection) Feminism
Victim Feminism

It is interesting to see such a proliferation of factions
within feminism. But academic discussions/debates on
feminism broadly divide feminism into two categories:
(1) Equity feminism (2) Gender Feminism

(The above categories were introduced by feminist writer
 Christina Hoff Sommers in her book "Who Stole Feminism?")

The reason many women are unwilling to be seen as feminists
is because they have issues with some aspects of gender
feminism, and since the term feminism is too broad and
includes gender feminism, hence their uneasiness with being
labelled as a feminist.

My present article is not about the non-controversial
aspect of feminism that aims to reddress the inequities and
against female gender. Instead I will present some interesting
quotes and views (some controversial) of women and feminists
themselves on gender and feminism issues, some of them in
response to controversial views of many gender feminsists.
This side of feminism in USA, not being usually discussed in
posts related to feminism, my present article will help to
provide a more complete picture. From here on until the end
it will be just quotes from books and and magazines. No
quotes should be credited to me, so my request to those who
like to pick on authors for quotes that don't belong to them,
please pick on the original authors If you have any issues
with the quotes.

1. Sarah Boxer in "One casualty of the women's movement: Feminism",
  NY Times, December 14, 1997 says that most women do not consider
  themselves as feminists (about 70% in 1997) yet they agree with
  every major feminist position.

2. From p-171, "Blank Slate: The Modern Denial of Human Nature"
  by Steven Pinker :

  In a 1975 dialog, Simon De Beauvoir said "No women should be
  authorized to stay at home to raise her children, women
  should not have that choice, precisely because if there is such
  a choice, too many women will make that choice.

3. From p-339, Blank Slate - Pinker:
Both Wendy Shalitt in her book "A return to Modesty:
Discovering the lost virtue" and Danielle Crittendon in her
book "What our mothers didn't tell us: Why happiness eludes
modern women", advise women "to marry young, postopone their
careers, and care for children in traditional marriages"

4. F. Carolyn Graglia in her book "Domestic tranquility: A brief
against Feminism" theorized that women's maternal snd sexual
instincts are being distorted by the assertiveness and
analytical mind demanded by careers. (From Blank Slate - Pinker)

5. Marian Kester Combs, a freelance writer for Washington Times &
Chronicles wrote in "Estrogen Poisoning" in Chronicle, May, 1997
that "feminists are out to destroy femininity and motherhood. She
contends that feminism should be called masculinism as thats what
the feminists are trying to aquire, traits like dominance,
aggression, profanity etc.

6. Suzanne Fields in "Warriors or Damsels in Distress?",
The washington Times, may 19, 1997 argues against women in
combat forms in military. Says "its a double standard of
feminists to advocate such roles. They(feminists) want female
soldiers to be seen as too weak to stand up to male superiors
who harass them but strong enough to battle enemies. If a woman
soldier cannot kick a male soldier where it hurts when he
attackes her sexually, how can we expect her to protect herself,
and her buddies against an eneny soldier?"

7. Feminist Gloria Steinhem said of fellow feminist Camile Paglia:
"Her calling herself a feminist is like a Nazi saying they are
not anti-semitic" (In Camile Paglia, "Crying Wolf" Salon magazine,
February 7, 2001)

8. From p-352-353, Blank Slate - Pinker:
The article "Parity as a goal sparks bitter battle" (C. Holden,
Science, July 21, 2000, p-380) quotes from a presentation at
the National Academy of Engineering by social scientist Patti
Hausman who said that the reasons why more women don't choose
careers in Engineering is because they don't WANT TO.

Patti Hausman's above observations were corroborated by Linda
Gottfredson who said: "On average, women are more intersted in
(dealing with)people and men with things"

"Glass ceiling theory has been refuted largely by women
themselves, like Hausman, Godfredson, Judith Klinefeld, Cathy
Young, Camille Benbow, economist Jennifer Roback, Felice
Schwartz, Diana FurchtgoltRoth, & Christina Stolba, legal
scholars Jennifer Braceras"

(My Note: Glass ceiling theory says that women face an invisible
 barrier in climbing up the corporate ladder beyond a certain level)

9. In "Women's Figures: The Economic Progress of Women in America",
published by American Enterprise 1996, Diana Furchtgott-Roth
and Christine Stolba disputes the allegation of widespread
discrimination and provide statistics to back it up, refers to
the allegation as an attempt to promote victim status of women.

10. Susan Au Allen, in April 1, 1997 issue of "Vital Speeches of
The day", explains wage gap as being due to "personal choices".
In 1992, she says that 75% of M.S. & PhD in Education went to
females, 86% of M.S & PhD in Engineering went to males. Average
monthly slary for Education field is $3048, and for Engineering
majors is $4045, a wage gap of $1001, obviously due to personal
choice.

11. From http://www.equityfeminism.com/bookstore/ceasefire.html :

"Into this fray steps Cathy Young whose book Ceasefire argues
that men and women aren’t all that different after all and that
many of the problems often described in the media as men’s or
women’s problems are, in fact, problems common to all humanity
regardless of sex. As Young aptly puts it in the title of her
first chapter, "Men are from Earth, Women are from Earth." That
in many circles this is still a fundamentally radical idea is
testament to how pervasive sexual stereotyping in all its
varieties remains.."

12. From: http://www.uccs.edu/~cwetheri/GRT/FSWE.html :

"We have a system of quality control in scholarship. It is
called criticism. This has broken down when it comes to
feminist research. Scholars are not correcting the faulty
research for fear of appearing illiberal or "sexist." This
has done terrible harm already."
   ( - Christina Hoff Sommers )

13. The title of the book by Christina Hoff Sommers:
 "The War Against Boys: How Misguided Feminism Is Harming Our
 Young Men" says it all, no quote is needed.

14. Daphne Patai writes in the introduction "Redefining the World"
  of her book "Heterophobia: Sexual Harassment and the Future
  of Feminism":

"Women claim to be equal partners when that suits them, and
claim to be entitled to special consideration when that suits
them."

"They insist on autonomy in maintaining or aborting pregnancies,
but at the same time they determine the fathers' duties -- and
rights, if any. Women claim child support. They can either
demand or impede fathers' continuing involvement with their
offspring, as the women see fit. [Do men have any reproductive
rights?] The result is that women have advantages over men in
child custody suits, having learned to use the legal system to
readily get protection orders against men (on the flimsiest
provocation) when that suits their purposes, just as they have
learned to use charges of child sexual abuse and domestic
violence."

(Note: According to the editorial board of the publisher,
Heterophobia is "A devastating expose of the way academic
feminists are driving their wedge between men and women.")

15. From pages 409-410, "Sex: A Natural History" by Joan Allen
Rodgers:
"For one thing most men do not rape or beat their
wives. For another, women under certain - but rarely sexual
circumstances are equally or more violent toward spouses that
are men. "But the facts are that half of all spousal murders in
US  are committed by wives and not all of them are in response
to physical abuse by men. The 1985 National Family Violence
Surevy supported by the National Institute of mental health
shows that women and men are physically abusing each other in
roughly equal numbers, and that women often use weapons to make
up for their relative physical advanatge. A study on family
violence published in 1986 in the Journal of Marriage and
Family found that 1.8 million women assaulted by husbands and
boyfriends, but 2 million men were assaulted by wife or
girlfriend. The study also found that mothers abuse their
children twice as often as do fathers in some surveys, and one
reason this seems so shocking is because men who are taught to
be manly are terrified to admit they have been abused by women,
so their numbers are vastly underrated."

16. Elinor Buckett in "The Right Women" (1998) says feminist
movement is over (Since it has succeeded) and says its no
longer bought by majority women anymore. Women are not
oppressed as the feminists clamour. She says signs of victory
are all over. In newspapers,.. Women's rejection of feminism
should not be a cause of dismay, it should be a cause of
celebration.

17. Mona Charen in Women's Quarterly, Spring '98 writes against
feminists view and contends that biology is repsonsible for
gender traits, not culture.

18. In "Mystery dance: On the evolution of Human Sexuality", p-15,
Lyn margulis says that as many Social Darwinists, politicians
and some academics have misused the idea of innate biological
differences to justify sexism and racism, causing feminists and
liberals to dismiss biology. But to reject evolutionary biology
because of the excesses of some of its invokers, she says is
like throwing away the pearl because it is surrounded by a
strong-smelling seaweed entangled oyster.

19. It was a woman political activist Phyllis Schlafly who
formed a foundation called stop the ERA (Equal Rights Amendment)!
In her book, "The Power of Positive Woman" she argues that women
are not prepared to handle equal responsibility as men as they
are not as strong as men and they cannot afford to lose the
protective labor laws favouring women that would disappear if
ERA was passed.

20. It is an irony that ERA has never been passed due to lack of
non-ratification by majority US states even though it was
passed by a male majority congress! Even women suffrage, which
was passed in 1920 was opposed by a woman, Phyllis Bissell, a
social reformer and lecturer.

21. From pages 79-80 of "Sex: A Natural History" by Joan Allen of
Rodgers: "Survey shows that women disapproves casual sex far
more than men, but still participate in it, a double standard
that belies the biological roots of our stone age ancestors and
is perhaps a frustrated bow to social conventions and male
dominated social structures.
...
"After all, in evolutionary terms, women, at least in developed
world, have just as many resources or access to resources as
men nowadays."

22. Marianne Williamson in her book "Women's Worth", p-63 says
"Most of us want a masculine man, but there's no way to have
one unless we become feminine woman".

23. Daylle Deanna Schwartz, in her book "All men are Jerks until
proven otherwise", p-93 says:

"Although women may hesitate to admit it, many of us love sex
far more than just the emotional gratification. Our reluctance
to acknowledge the basic natural pleasure is related to messages
that have taught us that its unladylike to enjoy sex too much"

24. Then there are some women on the extreme end of the spectrum,
who are inspired by Biblical passages and sincerely believes
that happiness in marriage can only come through submission of
wives to their husbands! Christina McClelland wrote in the
Moody magazine (July/August 1998 issue) titled "The Ugly 'S'
word" quoting biblical passages and citing her own happy
marriage argues that submitting to the husband is the best
guarantee for peace in the house.

- Aparthib


===Part-2===

(Posted on http://groups.yahoo.com/group/uttorshuri/message/1131)

In this second part of women on feminism I will
cite some further quotes and views of women on
women, covering various aspects of gender and
sex.

A. Some Quotes and views pertaining to the myth of
women's innocence:

1. Patricia Pearson in her book "When She Was Bad :
Violent Women & the Myth of Innocence" refutes the
innocent image of women and exposes the dark side
of women. Here is an excerpt from Amazon's editorial
review:

   "Women commit the majority of child homicides in the
   United States; more than 80 percent of neonaticides;
   an equal or greater share of severe physical child
   abuse; an equal rate of spousal assault; about a
   quarter of child sexual molestations; and a large
   proportion of elder abuse...The rate at which infants
   are murdered by women in the U.S. is higher than the
   rate at which women are murdered by men." With
   carefully researched facts, fascinating case histories,
   and incisive argument, Patricia Pearson succeeds in
   demolishing the myth that women are not naturally
   violent."

Larissa MacFarquhar wrote about the book in The New Yorker:

   She is a good reporter, and--no doubt in anticipation
   of conventional feminist objections--she has done the
   work necessary to back up even her most inflammatory
   ideas.

2. Journalist Kate Fillion wrote two books refuting some
myths about female superiority in many aspects. Her book
"Lip Service: The Truth About Women's Darker Side in Love,
Sex and Friendship" was a best seller. Here is an excerpt
from the editorial review:

   "Most of us are so accustomed to thinking of women and men
   as psychological opposites that we don't even notice that
   our actual experiences contradict our beliefs." With this
   powerful introduction, Kate Fillion launches Lip Service,
   the #1 bestseller that explodes the myth of female virtue.
   Women are not morally superior to men, she argues, nor
   should they want to be."

In her other book "Lip Service: The Myth of Female Virtue
in Love, Sex, and Friendship" Kate Fillion tries to explode
some more myths. Here is an excerpt from the editorial
review by Donna Seaman:

Journalist Fillion believes that we would all be much
better off emotionally and culturally if we would stop
paying lip service to that stale old myth about men and
women being psychological opposites. According to our
society's "sexual script," women are the "intimacy
experts," adept at communicating and at love, hence
morally superior. Men, by contrast, are reticent to a
fault and reluctant to forge relationships. These
absurd generalizations, Fillion argues, have become
"barriers to equality." In an attempt to dismantle them,
Fillion interviewed more than 100 women and men about
everything from friendships to relationships, fantasies,
sexual harassment, and the difference between rape and
unwanted sex...This dose of reality is a healthy
alternative to books, for instance, that describe men
and women as creatures from different planets. As far
as we know, we're all earthlings, splendid in our
diversity."

3. On p-182 of "Sex on the Brain", author Deborah Blum
writes: "Women can be violent too! A women shot her
husband because he was on the phone too long and refused
to hang up."

4. P.S: This one doesn't strictly belong to the thread of
discussion, as it is not about women on women, but simply
about women, but is just stated as an addendum because it
is related to all of the above. This is about a gruesome
tale of a woman's dark side from our own backyard,
as reported recently in the Bangladesh Dailies:

From Daily Janakantha of Dhaka, dated August 20, 2003
(Also appeared in The Daily Manab Zamin) :

A young women (Yasmin Begum) strangled to death the 7
year old child Jyoti of a woman in retaliation against
the woman for trying to prevent Yasmin from having an
affair with Jyoti's uncle. This happened in Pagla
Nandalapur village of Fotulla Thana. Yasmin abducted
Jyoti while she was on her way to Arabic lesson with
the Imam of the mosque. She then took Jyoti in Wapdarpool
area and strangled him. She hid the dead body in water
hyacinth. At about 11 pm police recovered Jyoti's
body. Yasmin has confessed to the murder and police
have also arrested her accomplice Shuchona.

B. Women on Women's Sexuality:

1. On p-93, of Anatomy of Love - Helen Fisher:
"All these data certainly lead one to suspect that women
avail themselves of illicit lovers with relish, perhaps
even as avidly as men"

On p-94 of Fisher(op cit) : "You may wish to argue
that these women (and women in many other cultures) all
engaged in prostitution for purely economic reasons. But
many say they like the sexual variety. And the women who
pursue this vocation are not alone. The animal kingdom
is rife with loose females."

On p-95 of Fisher(op cit): "There is no evidence whatsoever
that women are sexually shy or that they shun clandestine
sexual adventures. Instead both men and women seem to
exhibit a mixed reproductive strategy: Monogamy and
adultery are our fare"

2. On p-122 of "What's Love got to do with it?" by
Meredith Small:

"The difference between men and women in sexuality is not
natural, i.e it is not true that men are genetically coded
to have more sex than women, but simply a product of sexual
repression by males, a policy that developed to control
paternity ; without repression women would presumably have
sex as often and with as many partners as men"

Meredith Small, op cit : "Women would be as interested in
sex had they not had to fear a male stranger."

On p-157, Meredith Small(op cit): "In the short term, when
women have the opportunity and freedom, I maintain that women
are just as interested in sexual partners, and frequent sex,
as men". "both men and women compromise between two
conflicting impulses."

3. On p-352 of her book "Sex: A natural History",
Joan Ellison Rodgers says:

 "Every sexual anthropologist, from Alfred Kinsey to Helen
 Fisher, has concluded that given a level social playing field
 and absence of severe punishment, women, not men are the
 promiscuous sex, seeking variety.

4. On p-381 of Sex: A natural History : "April Gorry of UCSB
conducted studies of female white tourists (sex tourism) in
Carribbean found that women were more promiscuous there,
choosing men of lower status than themselves, prioritizing
male appearance etc.

5. On p-174 of "Female Sexuality" by Marie Bonaparte : "there
is a slight masochism in women, which impels her to welcome
and to value some measure of brutality on the man's part."

6. In her book "The Psychology of Women" (Two volumes)
Helene Deutsch says :

  "Masochism, narcissism, and passivity are the three key
  characteristics of the female personality."

(an entire chapter is devoted to female masochism)

C. Women on Man-Woman relationship:

1. On p-89 of "Women's Worth", author Marianne Williamson:
"We don't think about being kind and caring, we think about
how we can hook a man. We don't think about his fears and
problems, we think of our own and how we can get him to
solve them. We don't think about him period - but about his
money, his job, or his connections.

2. On p-124 of Anatomy of Love - Fisher: "Women are more
interested in the status of a potential lover than his
physical appearance."

3. Dr. Laura Allen, dept of Neuroendocrinology, UCLA:
"Women want money, men want youth and beauty"
(From p-209, Gender Shock - Phyllis Burke)

4. p-124, Deborah Blum, in "Sex on the Brain": "Monogamy
requires fair and equal partnership. The stereotype
"Men breadwinner, women as housekeepers" is not consistent
with monogamy."

5. On p-28 in "The Manipulated Man" - Esther Vilar:
  "What besides money, can bind a women to a man?"

D. Women on Women (various aspects):

1. On p-117, Sex: A natural History : "Women have diffuse
brain organization, in which some of the language capability
reside on the right as well, as a result her feelings flow
into words, his are clogged in the left brain. He feels the
same feeling, he just can't get them out so easily."

2. On p-255, Sex on the Brain, Deborah Blum: Women are far more
likely to "nuke" a strong woman than a man is, says psychologist
Laurie Reidman of University of Minnesota.

3. On p-17, The Manipulated Man - Esther Vilar:
"It is true that women gets progressively more elegant,
more well-groomed, more "cultured", but her demands
on life will always be material, never intellectual."

4. p-45, Vilar (Op cit): "Women are Stupid"

5. p-18, Vilar (Op cit):

  "But In our time women are no longer subject to the will of
  men. Quite the contrary. They have been given every
  opportunity to win their independence and if, after all this
  time, they have not liberated themselves and thrown off their
  shackles, we can only arrive at one conclusion; there are no
  shackles to throw off."

(My note: Vilar's book was written in 1972)

6. Women on Esther Vilar: Julie Myerson (In Mail on Sunday)
   commented on Vilar's Manipulated Man:

  "A wonderfully witty and intelligent kick in the pants for
   feminism."

7. In her Article "In Defense of Man", Heather Roscoe, former
   weekly columnist of American Partisan :

  "Why men would ever want to live with most women the way
   they've been acting these last few decades is beyond me."

   (From Spintech magazine, August 12, 2000,
   http://www.spintechmag.com/0008/hr0800.htm)

My Epilog:

  Everything thus far has been only quotes and excerpts from
  various sources. This may be disappointing to some who find
  relish in attacking me personally judging from some reactions
  to my earlier posts in past. One may still raise the cynical
  questions as to what is the point of it all. First. I must
  point out that I do not necessarily agree with EACH AND EVERY
  quote or views cited. So what is the lesson from all this?
  Many sensitive men have recognized the dark side of males
  and acknowledged gender inequity perpetrated on women, and
  have joined the equity feminists in ending this inequity.
  In affirming the equality of men and women some feminists
  (gender) have gone overboard and have taken a political
  position of female superiority, denying the reality of
  women's dark side. This approach to feminism isolated
  many well meaning male participants in the struggle for
  equality and undermines the overall strength of the struggle
  Its no surprise that this has made so many equity feminists
  concerened and caused them to react. They contend that
  true equity should base on equal accountability of both
  genders. Equality should not be based on a hypothetical
  assumption of superiority of one gender, or demanding a
  priviledged position for one over another or denying any
  dark side of one gender. Neither should it be based on
  a comparison between genders vis a vis vices or virtues,
  or asserting irrelevant differences, or citing difference
  that do not exist nor is supported by science. It should be
  only based on an intent to redress the wrongs and emphasizing
  equality (of rigthts and human potentials). Because of the
  legacy of our evolutionary past, women have been wronged by
  men in a "collective" sense. Individually though,there can be
  instances of the reverse. This collective wrong can be and is
  being rectified more and more by proper wiring of our brain
  through gene-culture coevolution. But to assert a moral
  superiority of one gender over another is to deny the
  insights of biology. At the bottom, either male or females
  are propelled by the same selfish genes. Genes may have
  resorted to sexual differentiation as one strategy for their
  replication, but genes do not have sexes themselves.

    - Aparthib