Talisman Bahai Archives Mar. 1-4, 1996
March 1-4, 1996
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 00:16:33 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: "Marie L. Procter"
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Mysticism Conference Response
Dear friends--
In defense of my "obtuseness" I would like to point out that there's a
major difference between "pietism" and "mysticism." Some
people seem to have confused the two. Mysticism comes from the
latin root "mysterium" which denotes, obviously enough, mystery.
Philosophical/theosophical language and terminology is (and has been
since the time of the Greek Mystery Religions -- i.e. Pythagoras and the
Pythagorean school are a representative trend) one possible way whereby
the "mysteries" have been illuminated and explained. So,
intellectualizing is *not* as foreign to esotericism as some people have
supposed -- very much to the contrary. I'm an Ishraqi by temperament
which means that a mysticism ungrounded in the intelligence (in the
"noetic" sense of the word) leads to dangerous flights of fancy.
Many people have complained that my talk was too philosophical,
intellectualizing, hyper-metaphysical, too abstract and dry in scope. My
sincere apologies. I should also remind people that I was more than bit
nervous, since one of the people I most respect in my field of study,
namely Professor Amin Banani, was in attendance.
Unfortunately (or, rather, fortunately for me) this is
what happens (meaning my intellectualizing) when one is reared on a steady
diet of Ibn `Arabi, Mulla Sadra, Plato, Meister Eckhart, Plotinus,
Shankara, Ananda Coomaraswamy, Frithjof Schuon and Henri Corbin -- the
intellectualizing tendency in esotericism.
Regards,
Nima Hazini (the OBTUSE one)
-
**************************************************************
* Paradox is a characteristic of truth. What communis opinio *
* has of truth is surely no more than an elementary deposit *
* of generalizing partial understanding, related to truth *
* even as sulphurous fumes are to lightning. *
* *
* --From the correspondence of Count Paul von Wartenburg *
* and Wilhelm Dilthey *
**************************************************************
=END=
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 01:41:21 -0600
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Bruce Burrill
Subject: Re: Too touche'. The debate about Buddhism.
Cc: "Stephen R. Friberg"
>Putting it succinctly in a physicist's language, this reads "the
>Ultimate is *not* the Ultimate!"
>
Stephen,
Right on the nose. And thank you, thank you, thank you for your very kind
and helpful msg. It is helpful to me get other perspectives on what I am
doing (whether I like it or not).
Bruce
=END=
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 01:00:28 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Bruce Burrill
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: The Book of the Dead
Dear Bruce--
Question: How do you see the *Bardo Todol* (The Tibetan Book of the Dead)
in the corpus of Buddhist literature? The reason I ask is this: there
seems to be (to me at least) a highly pronounced Upanishadic metaphysical
eschatology to its worldview. For example, 'the realization of the
luminosity of mind' doctrine expounded in the text is the closest
Buddhist idea to a Vedantic Atman notion I've ever seen anywhere in
any Buddhist literature. What are your views?
regards,
Nima
=END=
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 01:45:41 -0600
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Bruce Burrill
Subject: Re: King Kong & God [Buddism & Baha'i]
Cc: Sadra
Nima.
> "I don't mean to insult you by saying this, so please don't take that
way; I happen to be quite fond of you." <
That's nice of you to say, and I do appreciate it, but it seems that you
are somewhat alone in that. Thanks, though.
> "You say that Baha'is read theism into Buddhist concepts and that
there is no concept of an absolute in Buddhism." <
Baha'is do tend to do that. Certainly not all, but I have seen it done
enough in a variety of different ways. As for absolute maybe we need
to define this term. And:
> "While I also agree with you that Buddhism is not theistic in the
Judeo-Christain-Islamic sense" <
maybe we need to define theism in a Judeo-Christian-Islamic sense. And
most importantly something I have yet to see done, ever, in a careful,
systematic way is god defined in Baha'i terms.
> "I fundamentally disagree that this most noble of traditions is even
remotely quasi-atheistic (which to me you seem to be implying very
strongly)." <
To requote what I have quoted here earlier:
As the eminent buddhologist and Tibetan expert Herbert V. Guenther
states: "Buddhism, however, is a thoroughly atheistic doctrine. ... The
fact, however, is that no phase of Buddhism ever had theistic or
pantheistic tendencies...." PHILOSOPHY AND PSYCHOLOGY IN
THE ABHIDHARMA, p. 114-5.
And as Buddhologist Roger Corless, who is a Christian monk and a
practicing Buddhist, points out in his excellent introductory work, THE
VISION OF BUDDHISM: "Buddhism, on the contrary, claims that
belief in God leads to moral and spiritual degradation."
Buddhism is not atheistic in the materialistic sense of Western atheism,
but it certainly rejects a creator god, it certainly rejects the idea of a
self existent being, and it certainly finds the notion of "Absolute"
problematic.
> "I think it is also unproductive of you to claim that your views
represent those of Buddhism entire (which they clearly *do not*) --
perhaps only of a cross-section of *American Buddhists* only; those
who have broken completely with their previous tradition(s) and
often go to great, extreme lengths to disassociate themselves from any
vestige of the past (especially on the philosophical level)." <
As Dharmakirti so gently puts it:
"The unquestioned authority of the Vedas; THE BELIEF IN A
WORLD-CREATOR; the quest for purification through ritual bathings;
the arrogant division into castes; the practice of mortification to atone
for sin -- these five are the marks of the crass stupidity of witless men."
Of course the good monk, who is an important figure in Buddhist
thought, was able to give a far more reasoned rejection of the god notion
based upon Buddhist philosophical principles, but I kind of like this
quote. We find in the writings of early and late Indian Buddhist
scholar/saints such Nagarjuna, Shantideva, Vasubandhu, the idea of god
is roundly rejected. This is not just nasty old me saying that Buddhism
is saying this. Peter Harvey in his excellent intro book, AN
INTRODUCTION TO BUDDHISM (Cambridge) states:
"Buddhism sees no need for a creator of the world, as it postulates no
ultimate beginning to the world, and regards it sustained by natural laws.
Moreover, if there were a creator of the world, he would be regarded
as responsible for the suffering which is found throughout it (_Jat_. V
238) [pg 36]." And _Jat_. V 238:
"If God designs the life of the entire world -- the glory and the misery,
the good and the evil acts, man is but an instrument of his will and God
alone is responsible."
> "I think it is also unproductive of you to claim that your views
represent those of Buddhism entire (which they clearly *do not*)" <
I never said they did, but I do feel that what I am presenting is
consistent with mainstream Indian Buddhism.
> '...In Mahayana Philosophy the light of the sky at dawn, when there
is no moon, has come to symbolize the "Clear Light named the
Universal Void." In other words, the Buddha state, the condition of the
one who is free of all relativity, is symbolized by the Light that Guatama
percieved at the moment of illumination. This light is described as
"clear", "pure", that is to say not only without spot or shadow, but also
colourless, and without qualities. For this reason it is called "Universal
Void", since the term void (sunya) exactly signifies that it is free of all
attributes, of all differentiation: it is the Urgrund, the ultimate
reality. (Mircea Eliade _The Two & the One_ The University of
Chicago, 1965, p. 28).' <
Gosh, dare I differ with the great Eliade? First of all it is meaningless
to talk about "Mahayana Philosophy" as if it were a singular thing. It is
not, and certainly the Prasangika Madhyamaka school, the school of the
Dalai Lama, would strongly disagree with this statement. Secondly what
text is he referring to? If you want to spend time looking at the question
of the "void" as it has been presented by the likes of Nagarjuna and as
it is held by living traditions, I certainly can give you a reading list.
Are there schools of Buddhism that hold to such a view? Good question.
Bruce
=END=
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 96 00:54 PST
To: Sadra
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Mysticism Conference Response
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Sadra@rt66.com wrote:
>In defense of my "obtuseness"
I missed this talk, but my 17 year old daughter stopped swilling Derek's
delicious malts long enough to absorb every word and report back to me that
it was "fascinating!" She said she wasn't quite sure she understood it all
(not the presenters fault, she added) but that it kept her fully enthralled.
Usually only Rikki Lake or Melrose Place has such a mesmerizing effect on
her, so it must have been spectacular!
BB
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer (ISBN# 1-56901-815-4)
May be ordered by any real bookstore. Accept no excuses. It is still only
$19.95 suggested retail. Order it!
********************************************************
=END=
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 96 01:14 PST
To: "Stephen R. Friberg"
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Too touche'. The debate about Buddhism.
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
>Stephen Friberg wrote:
>In a way that is maddening to some, he is saying (do I get this right,
>Dr. Burl) that "the Ultimate is not what it used to be." ... "the Ultimate
is not what you think it is!"....."the Ultimate is *not* the Ultimate!"
>Get it?
>
Dr. Burl sez:
The original created, yet not static, expression is: "The future is not
what it used to be." A variation on this concept is the line from Orson
Welles' "Touch of Evil" in which the fortune teller tells Welles, "Your
future is all used up" (I adapted this for the Barb/Harold conversation
regarding their rationalizations for the failure of Barb's Country Kitchen &
Steggy's Blue Room in MAN OVERBOARD). When is the ultimate not the
ultimate? There are at least two answers: when it is pentultimate; when they
forget the onions. You may recall that in my satire piece "Dead Queen"
several months ago, I had Bruce not eating at Dairy Queen because they had
an Ultimate Burger. The past has caught up to the future and nothing will
ever be ultimate again. If the wheel were an important invention, we would
know the name of the inventor. Same with the folks who discovered fire. How
much of our chronology is built upon shared (agreed upon) chronos which,
ultimately/temporarily, is not absolute but merely/ultimately operationally
usefull in a relative sense? Speaking of relatives, has anyone sought the
twins and been disapointed?
Abdul Baha was once asked if all this was an illusion. His reply, pretty
much, was "Yes, this is an illusion, but you live in it" (provisional
paraphrase)
[ Refer to Abdul-Baha's discussion of the four conceptual models of
"creation" in Baha'i World Faith for reconcilliation of the
created/uncreated semantical hijinks.]
Dr. Burl, giving you his tired moments while watching Virtuosity.
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer (ISBN# 1-56901-815-4)
May be ordered by any real bookstore. Accept no excuses. It is still only
$19.95 suggested retail. Order it!
********************************************************
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 05:41:21 EST
Subject: story of the story
Dear Burl,
I guess the cultural miscommuncation, lack of communication, lack of
information etc. etc. continues. I thought it was hillarious. But, I
vaguely remember who Jack Paar is. Is he the Schoolmaster? Or, is he
the parish priest? [lol] I have no idea. Now, I am assuming many folks
did not think this was funny. Sorry about that. I tend to be on the
extreme side of the humour sometimes, so I laughed my head off,
when I read
it. It was especially funny, since they were all Europeans and still
did not understand each other. In spite of the fact that as you
alleged it may not be a true story. Why did they put it in an
academic book, for goddness sake?
Please think what can happen in a community as diverse as the Baha'i
community is and how many misunderstandings
are dealt with silently with hurt feelings. How many folks stop
talking to each other are aloof with each other due to
misunderstandings. Multiply the effect on cyberspace due to lack of
personal communication which includes verbal and non-verbal too.
In any case, Burl I imagined you would be one of those guys who would
be laughing at it. Did it catch you on the wrong side of humor today?
take care folks,
Quanta Dawn-Light (*_*)
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 05:52:05 EST
Subject: Adios Amigos!
I shall sign off until after Naw-Ruz. Wish all of you happy fasting.
Here are some intercultural tidbits on fasting. When I was a child my
family used to get up around 2-3 a.m. for a big meal my mom and
grandmother prepared. Moslem rise very early for you cannot eat
anything after you are able to see a white thread in the dark.
I love getting up with the grown ups and fast. My mother did not
allow me to fast, but she said if I fasted the first day, the last
day and one in the middle of Ramadan that would be 3+0 for the days I
did not and it would be 30. So, I obeyed. One day she sent to buy
walnuts for making baklava. On the way home while fasting I ate half
of the package. When I came home I realized I was fasting and began
to cry that I broke my fast. My mother laughed so hard and said "See
I am laughing and God is laughing too. Don't worry!"
According to Islamic traditions there are also exemptions from
fasting same as in the Baha'i rules. There is only one cultural
difference that I noticed. When people are not fasting, they never
eat in front of those who are fasting. Those who fast never talk
aboaut it all day long and complain about how hungry, tired and
thirsty they are and cannot wait until sunset. In fact, you never
know that they are fasting. Read all the prayers for fasting
carefully, you will understand what I mean.
Fasting is wonderful season of the year. It has thousand meanings.
Take care my beloved friends. I shall see you later, INSHAALLAH!!!!
LOVE,
Quanta Dawn-Light (*_*)
=END=
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 13:36:38 +0100
To: Bruce Burrill
From: lundberg@algonet.se (Zaid Lundberg)
Subject: The Double-Seeing Son [Buddhism & Baha'i]
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear BBBB,
Seeing double:
A father said to his double-seeing son, "Son, you see two insted of one."
"How can that be?" the boy replied. "If I were, there would seem to be four
moons up there in place of two." [from Robert Ornstein's _Psychology of
Consciousness_, 1986, p. 21, which I can truly recommend]
>> 'My apologies if we seem to misunderstand each other on this matter. I
>really don't want to get involved in another "power-struggle of opinions", so
>let this be my last posting to you, O.K.?' <
>
>Promises, promises. And unkept.
Gee Bruce, it's really hard to take you seriously! Do you read "a promise"
in the above statement? It makes me wonder how you read your Pali-texts . .
. I am rather stating a *hope* to get it over with and not to get involved
into one of your "power-struggle of opinions", which you seem to have a few
(how can you stand it? you must be spending hours doing this!).
I see a huge difference between "facts" and "opinions". A fact can be either
right or wrong, but an opinion is loaded with values, with feelings, with
convictions etc. In my opinion (!) you can't have "a wrong" opinion, but you
can have "a different" opinion. I completely agree with you (and I have said
it before) that if we Baha'is (scholars or not) misuse or meddle with "the
facts" of Buddhism e.g. if we say that Buddha was a Native American born
3000 B.C., then we are clearly deviating from all established facts of
mainstream Buddhism. If this is how you view Fozdar, Momen, Coleman et al,
then it is highly regrettable. But if you say that they're *wrong* about
their opinions or POV's e.g. that the Buddha (actually all previous
manifestations of God) = Baha'u'llah, you hopefully aren't doing this from a
scholarly POV but from an apologetic POV (which you are fully entitled to
do). If this is the case, you can't say that they're *wrong* and that you
are *right* but you can, of course, say that you have a *different opinion*
(which is completely understandable). It's however, important not to confuse
these two areas.
>I sure am the bad one. I'm just making all these unsupported statements, and
>damdifdino what I am talking about. I sure wish I could have such a nice
>'meta' perspective like you.
These are *your* words Bruce, not mine. I haven't said that you've made any
"unsupported statements." You sure do know what you're talking about from
your Buddhist POV and I haven't said that my POV is 'nice', but I'm glad
that you think it is (although I believe you are being sarcastic).
>You chastise me for being critical of Fozdar/Coleman on the basis of your
>interest in some sort of 'meta' perspective, and you chastise me for calling
>them ignorant, though you have in effect done just that to me.
Isn't "chastise" a very heavily value-loaded word? I'm very sorry if you
feel "chastised". I can support my statement that you are directly or
indirectly calling other people ignorant (including myself) but can you do
the same?
>And then there is your repeated "I'd rather talk to an illiterate
>Buddhist than a scholar," implying that a scholar maybe less likely to have
>a deep understanding of Buddhism or anything else, and by extension I guess
>I am less likely to a deep understanding of Buddhism.
I believe we have another one of our misunderstandings (or cursory
readings?) here. I've never implied that "a scholar maybe less likely to
have a deep understanding of Buddhism", only that it is *neither* a
guarantee *nor* a prerequisite, *nor that the two necessarily are perfectly
positively correlated (in fact there are too many examples in history of
religion that indicates a negative correlation i.e. that the so called
"learned" in religion have hindered and attacked the founders or adherents
of a new religion). This does *not* mean that there aren't plenty of people
who do succeed in combining both heart and mind (I just said I *prefer* the
illiterate Buddhist with a heart rather than the one without, but the *best*
combination would, of course, be both. But from what you have posted so far
on Talisman I experience neither an open mind nor a compassionate heart nor
any tolerance of other peoples opinions).
>. . . you'll not be impressed, I read Pali, can get by with Sanskrit, have
done 4
>years of graduate level courses in the Buddhist studies program at the U of
>Wisconsin, was a monk, and over the last thirty years I have studied with
>Tibetan, Zen and Theravadin teachers. Talk to your illiterate Buddhist if
>you will, I am hopeless. I know too damned much to understand anything, I
guess.
Congratulations! You seem like a true seeker. I hope you find what you're
looking for. I have no doubt that you know your stuff, but only "the
Enlightened One" can truly judge you if you truly have *understood* the
intended meaning of Buddhism and actually are *practicing* true Buddhism. I
don't think you're hopeless or that you "know too damned much to understand
anything" but I do recall some Zen-stories were "the cup had to be emptied
before anything could be poured into it." So if i understand these
Zen-stories then, yes, it seems that knowledge (not true knowledge), or
perhaps even pride, ego, passion, etc, anything can be an obstacle in our
way . . . and we have to burn it up with the fire of true knowledge . . .
>I am not really going to defend myself so much against your broad
>criticisms because my focus has been very deliberately narrow.
Well, that's what you seem to be doing. Why not broaden the perspective?
> if Baha'is are going to talk with Buddhist they need to do the work that
is >necessary to understand Buddhism from a Buddhist perspective as much as
is >possible if they really want to engage Buddhists in any sort of dialogue.
I completely agree that it "is necessary to understand Buddhism from a
Buddhist perspective", the question just is *whose*? Can you write an
introductory book on Buddhism that will satisfy *all* (the majority of?)
Buddhist? I would like to read it! However, your proposal cuts both ways.
Buddhist would have to learn about Baha'i too, that if, e.g. you would write
a book on Baha'i *all* (the majority of?) Baha'is would have to be satisfied
. . . Since you are so keen on knowledge/ignorance. How much, in general, do
Buddhist know about Baha'i compared to Baha'is knowing about Buddhism (or
the world religions in general)? I would love to see other Buddhist give
their POV's on Talisman. Let's invite some with perhaps different
backgrounds . . .
> Who is missing that point? I don't think anyone here else except you
because of > your cursory reading is missing that point. So again, so what?
I can only shrug
> my shoulders.
I guess anyone who doesn't agree with you is missing the point. And it seems
everyone else on Talisman is missing your points as well (It doesn't matter
how long your postings to Jack are, he still doesn't seem to get the point
does he? Was his reading of your postings also cursory? Once again you seem
to misunderstand what I ment with cursory reading (may the curse fall upon
me!). I'm not usually misunderstood by people . . . or am I? How about you?
>I think it would be far more useful for you to direct your criticisms at
>your fellow religionist. And beyond this if you have any further points to
>make, keep them short.
Likewise.
- Zaid
P.S. Since our Baha'i fasting-period of 19 days is coming up tomorrow I will
be unsubscribing Talisman for this time. So if you want to send any kind of
short replies, please send them to me and not to Talisman.
**************************************
Marie-Louise & Zaid Lundberg
Foreningsg. 18 B Malmo
S - 211 44 SWEDEN
Phone: +46-40-234742
**************************************
=END=
From: Wilgar123@aol.com
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 09:47:01 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Malissa
Malissa
I have not discarded your question - I am just trying to formulate a coherent
answer - will post next week
Love and laughter,
Bill G
=END=
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 09:03:14 -0600
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Bruce Burrill
Subject: Re: Too touche'. The debate about Buddhism.
At 01:27 AM 3/1/96 -0700, you wrote:
>Dear Bruce: We need to introduce you to Ibn `Arabi. Trust me, you're really
>gonna like this guy. What say you, O wise Stephen?
>
>yrs, Nima
>
>>
>> >Putting it succinctly in a physicist's language, this reads "the
>> >Ultimate is *not* the Ultimate!"
>> >
>>
>> Stephen,
Or as one author I was looking at said, the ultimate truth is that there is
no ultimate truth. As for Ibn `Arabi, I'm all eyes.
Bruce
=END=
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 08:45:50 -0600
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Bruce Burrill
Subject: Re: The Double-Seeing Son [Buddhism & Baha'i]
Cc: lundberg@algonet.se (Zaid Lundberg)
lundberg,
Thee: > 'My apologies if we seem to misunderstand each other on this
matter. I really don't want to get involved in another "power-struggle of
opinions", so let this be my last posting to you, O.K.?' <
Me: "Promises, promises. And unkept."
Thee> 'Gee Bruce, it's really hard to take you seriously! Do you read
"a promise" in the above statement? It makes me wonder how you read
your Pali-texts . . . I am rather stating a *hope* to get it over with and
not to get involved into one of your "power-struggle of opinions", which
you seem to have a few (how can you stand it? you must be spending
hours doing this!).' <
Grooooaaaan. It's a joke, son. A joke. I guess I was just hoping that it
would be as you said your last posting to me. I was so hoping. Oh, life
is full such small disappointments. Drat the pins and needles of being let
down!
I hear what you are saying, I understand what you are saying, but I
guess, I suppose, that I am going to need to admit that you are correct
on every point. Naw, I don't think I'll do that.
> 'I see a huge difference between "facts" and "opinions".' <
That's nice, and opinions can be, using facts, well informed or not.
> 'But if you say that they're *wrong* about their opinions or POV's
e.g. that the Buddha (actually all previous manifestations of God) =
Baha'u'llah, you hopefully aren't doing this from a scholarly POV but
from an apologetic POV (which you are fully entitled to do). If this is
the case, you can't say that they're *wrong* and that you are *right* but
you can, of course, say that you have a *different opinion* (which is
completely understandable). It's however, important not to confuse
these two areas.' <
Of course. I'll repeat myself. Coleman and company, as I have said
more than once, can have all the opinions they want, but I can certainly
question whether their opinions are well informed or not.
> "although I believe you are being sarcastic" <
Hmm, I wouldn't want you to think that. As for the rest of your msg,
thanks for the lecture. It's nice see to somebody repeat themselves as
often as do I.
> 'Since our Baha'i fasting-period of 19 days is coming up tomorrow
I will be unsubscribing Talisman for this time." <
You'll be sorely missed.
Bruce
=END=
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 12:17:58 -0500 (EST)
From: Jackson Armstrong-Ingram
To: talisman
Subject: parity/women
A number of posts mentioned an interest in some time depth in statistics
for comparison. The following stats are from my Recovering a LOst
Horizon in Equal Circles:
in the US,
in 1937 the ratio of women to men serving as chairman of national committees
was 1.9 and the ratio for secretary was 12.
for LSA sec in 1937 the ratio was 4.83.
in 1958 the sec ratio was 11.5
in 1968 the sec ratio was 18.95
It would seem from the stats Juan quoted that we have progressed to a
bit better then level of the 1930s.
Jackson
=END=
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 96 09:06 PST
To: Bruce Burrill
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: The Double-Seeing Son [Buddhism & Baha'i]
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
>Lundberg: 'Since our Baha'i fasting-period of 19 days is coming up
tomorrow I will be unsubscribing Talisman for this time." <
>
>Bruce: "You'll be sorely missed."
>
>
How, *that's* entertainment! Dr. Burl gives Bruce the dry response award
of the week. Bravo!
>
>
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer (ISBN# 1-56901-815-4)
May be ordered by any real bookstore. Accept no excuses. It is still only
$19.95 suggested retail. Order it!
********************************************************
=END=
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 08:58:39 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Re: Buddhism and the Baha'i Faith.
To: talisman@indiana.edu
---- Begin Forwarded Message
My dear Sir
My views on your beliefs are mine, I do not apologise for reading the
multitude of postings you have done over the last 8 plus months on
Talisman and arriving at my own conclusions.Does this mean according
you nobody is permitted to form opinions unless they are in accordance
with your opinions.That is the hallmark of the fundamentalist and the
intolerant.
What would be more to the point my dear Burrill is that I have had your
postings forwarded to me by various Baha'is over the last two years.
Perhaps one should ask why you seem to have taken on a personal crusade
towards the Baha'i community. If you bothered to read my general
message it was not a personal attack, but boredom with people trying to
dealing with an immoveable object.I most certainly do believe you have
developed your version of Buddhism. As I said publish my dear Sir and
let us see what happens.Naturally we would get Fozdar and Momen to
review the book
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
Cockshut,
> "Burrill version of Buddhism is purely his own, I find
no reference in any of his postings which identify him with any
particular body , branch or School of the Religion. It would be
erroneous for anyone to assume his ideas represent the wholeness
or even the essential essence of that Religion." <
Your msg is an rather interesting personal attack, which is rather hard
to take seriously since you do not see fit, or are unable to, show a
basis
for it, that mine is an idiosyncratic Buddhism.
Now, according to you I must identify myself with a particular branch
or school of Buddhism to be taken seriously. But then I suppose that if
I do that, then I'll be dismissed as being particularly sectarian. I am
not
sure that anything I say or do will please you or some of the other
Baha'is who would rather see Buddhism differently from how I see it.
> "However it seems to me he has developed his version of Buddhism
that is separate from the main body of the Religion.with a syncretic
methodology that suits his own mind set." <
And you would be kind enough to share with me a careful analysis of
what brought you to this notion, and would you be kind enough to show
me that what I have said is not in accord with the "main body of the
Religion." This is a very serious accusation, and I think you need to
either withdraw it and apologize, or back it up.
The question of the "main body of the Religion" is an important one.
The Buddhist sources I draw for my understanding are from what could
be called mainstream Buddhism, particularly in terms of Indian
Buddhism. I have here frequently quoted the Pali texts, I have looked
at
the Diamond Sutra in response to Fozdar's eisegesis. I see my self very
much in terms of mainstream Buddhism, which is rooted in the Nikaya
texts and expounded and expanded by the likes of Mogaliputta-Tissa,
Buddhaghosa, Vasubhandhu, Asanga, Nagarjuna, Dharmakrti,
Shantideva, Candrakirti and Tsongkhapa, all of which I have studied. I
find that my understanding of Buddhism is rooted in the Pali texts. I
have a great fondness for the Prajnaparamita Literature and I feel that
the Prasangika Madhyamaka, the school of the Dalai Lama, is very a
clear and appropriate exposition and expansion of the Buddha's
teachings
as found in the Nikayas. I would have to say that I have said _nothing_
that is inconsistent with or outside any variation within mainstream
Buddhism.
The fact that in the Pali texts you find the notion of a god rejected
both
directly and by virtue of the "metaphysics" presented in the texts is
not
something I made up, nor is the fact that the Indian doctors of
Buddhism
that consider the god notion reject it, nor is the fact that the Hindus
considered Buddhism atheistic. It is not something that I made up that
the Nagarjuna and the Madhyamaka school the grew up after him reject
the notion of an "Absolute," nor is it something I made that this is
consistent with the Pali texts.
I'll await your showing me that I have presented an idiosyncratic
Buddhism, or I'll await your apology.
> "Kindest Regards" <
Hardly seems so.
Bruce
=END=
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 96 09:00 PST
To: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: story of the story
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
>
>In any case, Burl I imagined you would be one of those guys who would
>be laughing at it.
I love the story! It is still hilarious after all these years. It is
especially funny read out loud with a perfectly straight face, which is what
Jack Paar did on NBC-TV. Paar was former host of the Tonight Show before
Johnny Carson -- he walked off the show at the peak of his popularity
because the network censors edited out the words "Water Closet" and the
explanation of "water closet=ladies room" so the entire joke had no set up
and no sense when he told it -- no one in TV land had any idea what he was
talking about or why the studio audience was in hysterics! Well, that did it
for Jack! He cried on national tv the following night, stood up and walked
out. period. Years later, of course, he came back on in a TV special and
read the story again without it being censored. This makes the story an
even better example of miscommunication in multi-cultures
(European/American/Television)!
I Love it,
Burl.
>
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer (ISBN# 1-56901-815-4)
May be ordered by any real bookstore. Accept no excuses. It is still only
$19.95 suggested retail. Order it!
********************************************************
=END=
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 08:07:42 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: Mr. Burrill
>Nima.
>
>> "I don't mean to insult you by saying this, so please don't take that
>way; I happen to be quite fond of you." <
>
>That's nice of you to say, and I do appreciate it, but it seems that you
>are somewhat alone in that. Thanks, though.
>
Dear Mr. Burrill,
Let me begin by saying that Nima is not the only one who has much respect
and fondness for you on this forum. There are those of us that appreciate
the fact you take the time to stand firm on your core beliefs and engage
others in what I see as a valuable educational discussion. We might not
share the same beliefs, but I certainly admire you for whom you are and for
what you stand.
Sincerely,
Arsalan
Arsalan J. Sadighi
"Things are never quite as scary when you've got a best friend."
Calvin and Hobbes
=END=
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 13:02:13 -0600
To: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
From: Bruce Burrill
Subject: Re: Mr. Burrill
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
A.
>Dear Mr. Burrill,
>
>Let me begin by saying that Nima is not the only one who has much respect
>and fondness for you on this forum. There are those of us that appreciate
>the fact you take the time to stand firm on your core beliefs and engage
>others in what I see as a valuable educational discussion. We might not
>share the same beliefs, but I certainly admire you for whom you are and for
>what you stand.
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Arsalan
>Arsalan J. Sadighi
>
>
> "Things are never quite as scary when you've got a best friend."
>
> Calvin and Hobbes
>
>
Thank you.
Bruce
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: DAWNLIQU@fllab.chass.ncsu.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: story of the story
Date: 01 Mar 1996 11:10:58 GMT
Quanta -
I don't remeber all the details, but they are recounted inseveral books,
academic and otherwise. Jack Paar was the first phenomenonly successful late
night talk show host; only Johnny Carson, who after a couple of intermim
personalities ultimately replaced him, has ever appreoached his popularity.
Anyway, things were very different in the 50's and 60's. Jack Paar told this
story on national TV, there was a *HUGE* uporoar and he was fired.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 13:07:36 -0600 (CST)
From: "Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion"
To: Talisman
Cc: "Baha'i Intuition"
Subject: Tenure
Folks,
Sorry for taking up band width. I just wanted to announce, for anyone who
might be interested, that I have just (two days ago) been granted tenure
on the sociology faculty of the college.
Mark (Foster)
=END=
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 08:27:58 +1300
To: "Stephen R. Friberg" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Too gauche. 2 hours after breakfast, as it drizzles...
At 3:36 PM 1/3/96, Stephen R. Friberg wrote:
>
>Putting it succinctly in a physicist's language, this reads "the
>Ultimate is *not* the Ultimate!"
>
>Get it?
Um. Is it being said, once and for all, and finally and emphatically, that
the Ultimate is ...um....not -- and I repeat, NOT -- the...er....Ultimate?
or have I missed something?
Don't ya just hate fasting?
Already hallucinating,
Robert.
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 14:27:31 EST
Subject: Important announcement
I am not gone yet! This morning I talked with a Minister
friend. There is a plan for boycotting shopping malls
for one day by the entire African American community.
I said YES!!!!!!!!!!! I have been waiting since 1990.
I was in a featured article as the President of Daughters of Mother
Earth. My aim was to teach women about the terrible
effects of consumerism on the environment, Third
World people and family life. It was railroaded, I think.
We are gonna fast with our minds, spirits and buy
only what we absolutely need. You are welcome to join in.
love to talismanians all over the world,
Quanta Dawn-Light (*_*)
=END=
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 13:40:10 -0800
From: Mark Foster
To: Talisman
Subject: Thoughts on the Buddhist-Baha'i Dialogue
Talismanians -
Not being a buddhologist, or anything even remotely resembling one, I am
entirely unqualified to judge whether Bruce's version of Buddhism is generic,
whether is represents a particular school, or whether it is mostly his
personal perspective on, or understanding of, the religion.
Notwithstanding, I would suggest that those of us who are Baha'is on this
list not become unnecessarily contentious. If someone has evidence of a
school of Buddhism which differs in significant ways from what Bruce may be
saying, why not just post that? Unfortunately, much of what I have seen
recently has been more along the lines of personal accusations; and little
documentation has been provided to support them.
It seems as though some people may be uncomfortable with Bruce's POV. In that
respect, questions of evidence or whether what he writes is typical of most
other Buddhists is moot. We each have the right to our own beliefs and to
present them frankly - no matter how unpopular they may be with others. I
continue to hope that the Baha'is on Talisman would welcome such openness
(which is one of the reasons I suggested to Bruce that he might enjoy this
list).
To the Light,
Mark (Foster)
--
*****************************************************************
Mark A. Foster, Ph.D. * Sociologist of Religion * College Faculty
Owner, Three Religion Internet Lists and Religion List Moderator
Staff, Four Religion Forums on CompuServe and America Online
Director, Reality Sciences Inst. * Sysop, Science of Reality BBS
Academic. Director, Foundation. for the Science of Reality *
*****************************************************************
=END=
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 13:35:03 -0600
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Bruce Burrill
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Buddhism and the Baha'i Faith.
Cc: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Cockshut,
> "If you bothered to read my general message it was not a personal
attack" <
A disingenuous statement if ever.... Of course it was a personal attack.
> "I most certainly do believe you have developed your version of
Buddhism." <
And so you believe, and so you tell us, but I reasonably ask for you to
back up this statement, you do not, and I would suspect, cannot.
> "Naturally we would get Fozdar and Momen to review the book" <
I invited Momen to do a careful discussion of his book with me and he
refused. Too busy, he said. As for Fozdar, well, what can I say? A man
who passes off as Buddhist texts stuff that isn't is not in a position to
pass judgement on the validity of any Buddhist undertaking.
> "Perhaps one should ask why you seem to have taken on a personal
crusade towards the Baha'i community." <
No crusade. A number of years ago on Compuserve a Baha'i zealot
made his presence know by interjecting himself into everyone else's
business, telling Christian's (on Easter) that the physical Resurrection
didn't happen. My favorite was his saying to a Seventh Day Adventist
that the advent was a "night of the living dead sort of thing." And of
course knowing nothing about Buddhism he proceeded, uninvited, to tell
me what was true and not true about it.
Now, at that time I had a great respect for Baha'i for a number of
personal reasons, but what I was seeing was quite off-putting, and I felt
he was doing Baha'i serious damage, which by the reactions to him, he
was. It was there I began talking with him and other Baha'is and the
general picture of what they were presenting was less than pretty.
Talking with Baha'is got to be something of a hobby, but not always a
pleasant one. I am delighted to find very liberal minded Baha'is here on
this list, a pleasant surprising eye-opener. And then there are the
conservative types. Oh, well.
> "My views on your beliefs are mine" <
Again, you are certainly entitled to your beliefs, but I am certainly
entitled to ask that when you make accusations that you back them up.
Of course, you can refuse, but what does that say about you?
> "I do not apologise for reading the multitude of postings you have
done over the last 8 plus months on Talisman and arriving at my own
conclusions." <
And you can't give a rationale for your conclusions that I am presenting
a solely idiosyncratic Buddhism? If you cannot, how then can you
meaningfully make such an accusation?
But the bottom line is, if you don't like what I write, don't read it.
> "Kindest Regards" <
Less than apparent.
Bruce
=END=
Date: 01 Mar 96 14:52:23 EST
From: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
To:
Subject: The Denver HoW Experience
Dear Talismanians,
After our pre-Talisman Mysticism Conference discussion of whether or not
a local community needs permission from their NSA or from the Universal
House of Justice to buy or build a Mashriq'ul-Adhkar, someone suggested --
was it Dr. Burl? -- that we ought to check with the Denver, Colorado
community to see what their process involved, as they recently bought a
beautiful church building to use as House of Worship and Baha'i Center.
So I did. My kid sister Jordis, once a Talismanian but now retired due to
message overload, served on the Denver Local Spiritual Assembly at the
time of the purchase. (Funded, btw, by one generous member of their
community)
Jordis told me that the Denver LSA sent many letters to Wilmette asking
for permission to buy the building, and also asking for clarification
about the propriety of using a former Christian church as a Baha'i House
of Worship and center. She said that the US NSA was very helpful,
providing them with many quotations from the writings on the subject.
She also reported that the NSA repeatedly gave them a single answer in
response to the above questions: "We can give you guidance, but the
matter you are considering is strictly a local matter, and the Local
Spiritual Assembly must make the decision."
This, for me, represents a great deal of hikmat on the part of the NSA, and
also gives support to the twin ideas of empowerment and decentralization
we have been talking about for some time. May a thousand Mashriqs
flourish!
Love,
David
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer), talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 14:30:45 EST
Subject: Man Overboard
Dear Uncle BB,
Thanks for not running overboard,
falling into a dump,
and becoming an old grump .
I asked the Wake County library to put MAN OVERBOARD
in the shelves so I can read it.
love,
Quanta Dawn-Light (*_*)
=END=
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 96 12:27:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Death Sentence for Apostasy
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
The following was shared with Adabiyat list by Albrecht Hofheinz
and may be of interest to some. ahang.
Date: Thu, 29 Feb 1996 00:09:37 +0100
Sender: UCSB Religious Studies Forum
From: Wendi and Moojan Momen
Subject: Death Sentence for Apostasy
The following document is a translation of a death sentence recently handed
down by a court in the city of Yazd against a member of the Baha'i Faith,
for no other reason than that he is a member of the Baha'i Faith.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
PROVISIONAL TRANSLATION FROM PERSIAN
[Emblem of the Islamic republic of Iran]
Minutes of the interrogation
Page number:
Meeting number:
Islamic Revolutionary Courts of the Province of Yazd
Court classification number: 74/2288/D
Appeal number: 74/2312/D-R
Date of investigation: 12 Day 1374 [2 January 1996]
Investigating authority: Branch number 1 of the Islamic Revolutionary Court
of Yazd
The particulars of the accused: Dhabihu'llah Mahrami, son of Ghulamrida,
born in 1325 [1946], a resident of Yazd
The nature of the accusations: Denouncing the religion of Islam and
adopting the beliefs of the wayward Baha'i sect; national apostasy
Procedure:
Mr. Dhabihu'llah Mahrami, son of Ghulamrida, born into a Baha'i family,
followed the wayward Baha'i sect until the year 1360 [1981], at which time,
while he was an employee of the Department of Agriculture of the Province
of Yazd, he recanted [his faith in] Baha'ism in a widely distributed
newspaper and announced his acceptance of the true religion of Islam.
Furthermore, he indicated his religion to be Muslim, of the Shi ih sect, on
the form which he completed at the Department of Agriculture in 1364, on
the basis of which he was not fired from his job in the government.
However, he recently announced himself to be a Baha'i and indicated that he
participates in the gatherings of this sect. He has also wedded his
daughter to a Baha'i individual in Isfahan (as reported by the Department
of Intelligence in Yazd in its documents of 11 Khurdad 1374 [1 June 1995]
numbers 2696/m/33-23/7/70 and 21364/M/33). On 2 Murdad 1374 [24 July 1995]
an instruction was issued by the head of the Islamic Revolutionary Court in
Yazd to the Department of Intelligence to take the aforementioned
individual to the aforesaid Court during working hours.
On 25 Murdad 1374 [16 August 1995] he appeared before the Islamic
Revolutionary Court in Yazd and attested to his being born into a Baha'i
family and to his attending the [Nineteen Day] Feasts; furthermore, while
expressing his doubts about the contents of the paper bearing his signature
and the matter of the form of the Department of Agriculture of the Province
of Yazd indicating that he is a follower of the Shi ih sect of Islam, he
declared that the signature at the bottom of the form does belong to him
but that he is unaware of the contents of the form.
When asked from whom he receives his instructions, he said, from higher
authorities of the Spiritual Assembly, the members of which he does not
know, as he receives his instructions through liaisons. In the preliminary
stages of the investigation carried out by the Department of Intelligence
of the Province, while conveying his remorse for converting to Islam (when
he was a Baha'i), he stated that he had forwarded his request to the Baha'i
institutions for pardon and for returning to the Baha'i community, and that
he has been forgiven and is now recognized as a Baha'i by the Baha'i
community (pages 33 and 35 of his file). He does however confess that in
the past seven years he did attend mass prayers every once in a while and
was truly a Muslim, even though he felt ashamed in front of his wife and
children (pages 40 and 41 of his file). In several instances, he denies
that he announced his aversion from the wayward Baha'i sect by choice; he
even states that "because prominent Baha'is were arrested and killed at the
beginning of the revolution, my intention was to keep my family and myself
safe; however, when it was determined that the Baha'is were no longer being
bothered, I became a Baha'i again" (pages 40 and 41 of his file).
Because of the negative effects of his accepting the wayward Baha'i sect
after being a Muslim for seven years, and based on religious axioms, the
Revolutionary Court in Yazd (branch number 1) endeavoured to hold certain
meetings for the purpose of guiding him [to the path of truth] and
encouraging him to repent for having committed the most grievous sin, i.e.,
apostasy. The first meeting was held on 11 Mihr 1374 [3 October 1995],
during which he clearly announced himself to be a Baha'i and a follower of
the principles of this sect. Despite his limited knowledge of the blessed
religion of Islam and of the misleading and wayward Baha'i sect, he did not
accept the suggestion of this court to receive guidance from well-informed
individuals. In response to the question of the court about what he
believes the station of Mirza Muhammad Aliy-i-Bab to be, he responded that
the Bab was the Herald of the Manifestation of Mirza Husayn- Aliy-i-Baha',
Who was also a Prophet sent by God.
After he was told that according to the belief of all the sects of Islam,
His Holiness Muhammad was the Seal of the Prophets, that [the acceptance]
of this fact is one of the essential religious beliefs of the Muslims, and
that anyone denying this fact will be removed from the Cause [of Islam], he
stated, "I do not believe so", even though he had confessed to be of sound
mind, had taken full responsibility for his statements and had indicated
that he continued to believe in all that he has said. According to a letter
numbered 4564/M/213 dated 11 Mihr 1374 [3 October 1975] from the Department
of Intelligence of the Province of Yazd, the father of this individual was
born into a Muslim family, became a Baha'i when he got married, and
remained a Baha'i until the end of his life and was buried in the Baha'i
cemetery of Yazd; his mother was a Baha'i born into a Baha'i family.
A second meeting was held on 22 Mihr 1374 [14 October 1995] in the Islamic
Revolutionary Court of Yazd for the purpose of guiding him. When he was
asked whether he had reached a decision in the time awarded to him, he
stated that he remains firm in his faith in Baha'ism, that he was indeed a
Muslim for seven years, and that he became a Baha'i once again in light of
the fact that the members of his family are Baha'is. When asked if he would
become a Muslim if the members of his family were to become Muslims, he
responded in the negative, indicating that he would remain a Baha'i. Again,
he stated that he accepts Mirza Husayn-Aliy-i-Baha' as the Prophet of God,
that he believes in Him, that he makes these statements with a sound mind
and on his own accord, and that he is not willing to return to Islam or to
repent for this act of apostasy.
The third meeting was held on 28 Aban 1374 [19 December 1995], in which he
repeated his previous statements and, attesting to being of sound mind and
in full control, indicated that he does not intend to return to Islam or to
repent for having committed the most grievous sin, i.e., apostasy. After
holding three consecutive meetings for guiding him [to the truth], despite
the fact that he was given ample time to study the situation and to accept
the suggestion [of this court] to be sent to a learned individual for
investigating the shallow foundations of his beliefs, he refused to do so,
and, regardless of the tremendous efforts [of this court] towards
encouraging him to repent for having committed the most grievous sin, i.e.,
apostasy, [the court] did not succeed [in its efforts] because of the
enmity and the stubbornness of this individual. Therefore, in light of
section 10 of the second volume of Mirath (p. 336), written by his holiness
Imam Khomeini, the founder of the Islamic Republic of Iran, and section 1
of the second volume (p.494) of Al-Hudud, he was asked to select a defence
attorney to defend him against these accusations.
After introducing an attorney at law [as his defence lawyer], a session of
this branch [of the Revolutionary Court] was held on 12 Day 1374 [2 January
1996] with his attorney also present. Having heard his own and his lawyer's
defence statements, which were presented both verbally and through a
written statement, he was given one last chance to defend himself. The end
of the investigation was then announced and the following verdict issued.
The Court's verdict:
Concerning the charges brought against Mr. Dhabihu'llah Mahrami, the son of
Ghulamrida, i.e., denouncing the blessed religion of Islam and accepting
the beliefs of the wayward Baha'i sect (national apostasy), in light of his
clear confessions to the facts that he accepted the wayward Baha'i sect at
the age of maturity, later accepted Islam for a period of seven years, and
then returned to the aforementioned sect; and because of the fact that,
despite the tremendous efforts of this court to guide him and to encourage
him to repent for having committed the most grievous sin, he remains firm
in his baseless beliefs, he has, in three consecutive meetings, while being
of sound body and mind and in absolute control, announced his allegiance to
the principles of Baha'ism and his belief in the prophethood of Mirza
Husayn-Aiy-i-Baha, he has openly denied the most essential [principle] of
Islam (Prophet Muhammad being the Seal of the Prophets), and he is not
willing to repent for having committed this sin, the following verdict was
issued based on the investigations of the Department of Intelligence of the
Province of Yazd, and the damaging consequences of his leaving the true
religion of Islam and rejoining the Baha'i sect, which, according to
indisputable principles accepted by reasonable people, is a clear insult to
the beliefs of over one billion Muslims.
By applying the tenth definition of "Nijasat" [impurities], to be found in
the first volume of Tahrir-Al Vasilih (p. 118), in defining an infidel and
an apostate, as well as section ten of the book of Al-Mavarith (on the
topic of inheritance) and sections one and four of Al-hudud (on the topic
of apostasy) written by the great founder of the Islamic Republic of Iran,
his holiness Imam Khomeini, the accused is sentenced to death because of
being an apostate. Furthermore, based on section one of Almavarith (on the
topic of inheritance), and in light of the fact that he does not have any
Muslim heirs, a verdict is issued for the confiscation of all of his
properties and assets by the Yazd division of the Imam's Executive Body.
This verdict was issued in the presence [of the accused], and can,
according to paragraph 19 of the law of Public and Revolutionary Courts, be
reconsidered in the Supreme Court.
Fallah
Head of branch number 1 of the Islamic Revolutionary Court in Yazd.
<< end of forwarded material >>
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 15:00:35 EST
Subject: Beating drums
Dearest friends,
Based on some of the messages I read today,
I am wondering if some of us are experiencing
baby-boomers-blues! Folks sound grumpy.
I will be signing off when I am at work tomorrow.
I am going to miss you all so very much. But, for me
it is part of learning detachment. See, how long I can do it.
Anyway, I forgot one very important aspect of fasting
during Ramadan that every night around 3 a.m. two
men walk the streets with a large drum and a
drum beater with the size of a baseball bat. One
keeps beating the drum the other chants prayers and ask the believers
to rise for sahur (meal). God! it is so neat you cannot believe how excited
I was when I heard them and the Muezzin's call to prayers at dawn.
I just loved it and I miss it so terribly. But, today in the
rich part of Istanbul where people are not as religious,
the drummers are not allowed to do this. In the Fatih area where Baha'u'llah
exile home was it used to be a upper middle class area
and I went to the mosques after Iftar with my friends and
grandmother. Ramadan left some of the most wonderful
memories in my childhood. I wish I was home NOW!!
love,
Quanta Dawn-Light (*_*)
=END=
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 12:25:23 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: Buddhism and the Baha'i Faith.
To: talisman@indiana.edu
---- Begin Forwarded Message
My dear Burrill
If I intend to make a personal attack, as you term it, I always go
straight at the person.
On your personal beliefs :
Do you believe the Buddha was divine. Do you believe in a return of the
essential spiritual elements of yourself until you to attain Buddha
hood.
What is the purpose of life?
You clearly are trying to change the subject I posted YOU write a book
on your Buddhist beliefs and we would get Moojan and Fozdar to review
that book we have heard your reviews endlessly of theirs.
How delightful we are your hobby, glad to be of service.
I have no interest in entering into a debate whether your vision of
Buddhism is right or wrong , I have on more than one occasion actually
defended your right to your beliefs and idea and would continue to do
so. I just do not accept you reflect main stream thought in Buddhism.
I have never said I do not like what you write, I just do not accept
all
that you write. The purpose of exchange for me has to be an enabling of
the mind to expand and thereby one would hope to increase in wisdom.
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
Cockshut,
> "If you bothered to read my general message it was not a personal
attack" <
A disingenuous statement if ever.... Of course it was a personal
attack.
> "I most certainly do believe you have developed your version of
Buddhism." <
And so you believe, and so you tell us, but I reasonably ask for you to
back up this statement, you do not, and I would suspect, cannot.
> "Naturally we would get Fozdar and Momen to review the book" <
I invited Momen to do a careful discussion of his book with me and he
refused. Too busy, he said. As for Fozdar, well, what can I say? A man
who passes off as Buddhist texts stuff that isn't is not in a position
to
pass judgement on the validity of any Buddhist undertaking.
> "Perhaps one should ask why you seem to have taken on a personal
crusade towards the Baha'i community." <
No crusade. A number of years ago on Compuserve a Baha'i zealot
made his presence know by interjecting himself into everyone else's
business, telling Christian's (on Easter) that the physical
Resurrection
didn't happen. My favorite was his saying to a Seventh Day Adventist
that the advent was a "night of the living dead sort of thing." And of
course knowing nothing about Buddhism he proceeded, uninvited, to tell
me what was true and not true about it.
Now, at that time I had a great respect for Baha'i for a number of
personal reasons, but what I was seeing was quite off-putting, and I
felt
he was doing Baha'i serious damage, which by the reactions to him, he
was. It was there I began talking with him and other Baha'is and the
general picture of what they were presenting was less than pretty.
Talking with Baha'is got to be something of a hobby, but not always a
pleasant one. I am delighted to find very liberal minded Baha'is here
on
this list, a pleasant surprising eye-opener. And then there are the
conservative types. Oh, well.
> "My views on your beliefs are mine" <
Again, you are certainly entitled to your beliefs, but I am certainly
entitled to ask that when you make accusations that you back them up.
Of course, you can refuse, but what does that say about you?
> "I do not apologise for reading the multitude of postings you have
done over the last 8 plus months on Talisman and arriving at my own
conclusions." <
And you can't give a rationale for your conclusions that I am
presenting
a solely idiosyncratic Buddhism? If you cannot, how then can you
meaningfully make such an accusation?
But the bottom line is, if you don't like what I write, don't read it.
> "Kindest Regards" <
Less than apparent.
Bruce
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: talisman@indiana.edu, bahai-discuss@bcca.org
Subject: 'Parable' on BRIDGE-L list
Date: 01 Mar 1996 14:28:24 GMT
Friends -
Once again a parable has been posted to the BRIDGE-L list which I feel is an
attack on the Faith. Because this has been posted previously there, I have
confronted the poester, on that list, requesting he show how this story has
any other possible intent.
The last time this story was posted, several Baha'is tried to justify the
Baha'i positions. While that may have been justified at that time, I do not
feel that any further discussion of the dangers he see's in the Faith serve
any useful purpose, either in changing his mind or countering a negative
reaction to the Faith from others. I for one will not engage in a discussion
of the story with him or anyone else on that list.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
From: coleman@olimp.irb.hr
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 21:14:20 MET-DST
To: TALISMAN@indiana.edu
Subject: Search for Common Grounds
SEARCH FOR COMMON GROUND BETWEEN BUDDHISM & THE BAHA'I FAITH
FUNDAMENTAL IDEAS: Previously, we varied parameters to try to
reach a "common ground" between Buddhism and the Baha'i Faith. An
attempt will be made now to establish some "common grounds" between
some Buddhist and Baha'i-like concepts to initiate a sympathetic
dialogue. Some of these ideas are not to be found in the Writings.
So any mistakes are mine; any truths belong to reality. Now,
Buddhist ideas of Ultimate Reality, Universal Mind and "empty void"
encompass a worldview that predetermines how Buddhists see reality.
It might be mentioned that this hopefully constructive view of the
significance of these Buddhist teachings is in no way conflicting
with Baha'i teachings. Optimistically, most of this discourse will
be presented in a manner compatible with the Buddhist worldview. If
we succeed, this might become one foundation for building a bridge
between Buddhism and the Baha'i Faith.
We will try to search for more "common grounds" by considering
the Buddhist concept of Ultimate Reality. At the heart of all
religions is the relationship of the individual human being with
the Ultimate Reality. Since there is no concept of God or Creator
in Buddhism in the same meaning as in most Western religions, this
Buddhist concept of Ultimate Reality (and, depending upon whose
translation you read, a Universal Mind and a Self-Existent Being)
according to the concept of Shunyata in Mahayana Buddhism.
According to these Buddhist texts, Ultimate Reality is also viewed
as an "empty void." This idea of Ultimate Reality viewed as an
empty void is a rich and productive one also conveying an extensive
variety of meanings. Although we do not have all the answers yet,
there also seem to be a useful relationship between these ideas and
some fundamental concepts in theoretical physics. Since science and
religion should agree, perhaps we can use this other branch of
knowledge to examine implications of these Buddhist thoughts.
In our quest to understand these Buddhist beliefs, we first
ask what are the ultimate "building blocks" of reality. During the
so-called Big Bang and the earliest extremely small units of time
after, there was no complex matter, no molecules, no chemical
atoms, no protons, neutrons or electrons, and in theory, no
particles at all - the tremendously enormous temperatures would
prohibit the formation of any particles. At that time, the universe
probably consisted of one basic unified force or ultimate matter
that was manifested as primary matter and/or force that had
fantastic simplicity, unity and beauty, from which the entire
universe as we know it, evolved. Can we include spiritual beings
along with material beings as emanating from this genesis? Why not?
WHAT IS PRIMARY MATTER? We don't know what this "primary
matter" really is, whether it is "material" or whether it is also
spiritual. We don't really know what spiritual substance is,
either. For this basic reality from which the complex world in
which humans now live, we should not necessarily exclude spiritual
attributes. Most of the laws of physics, as we know them or not,
probably applied for this primal substance or force.
For the forces of electromagnetism, nuclear forces and
gravity, messenger particles have been proposed that exchange
forces between bodies. What might be interesting to Buddhists and
Baha'is is that these messenger particles are thought to be closely
related to particle pairs called "virtual" or "ghost" particles
that are continuously created and destroyed in very short times,
which were predicted by quantum mechanics and that have been
observed in otherwise the "empty void" of space or vacuums. This
tends to confirm that the so-called "empty void" of space is not
really empty nor a void after all and that some ethereal world of
"primary matter," infinitesimally smaller than any known or
hypothesized particle, does indeed exist!
Physicists sometimes argue that the laws of nature came into
being with the universe. If that were so, then these laws cannot
explain the origin of the universe, because the laws would not
exist until the universe existed. But if these laws existed prior
to the origin of the universe, they become like Plato's perfect
Forms which act as blueprints for the construction of the ephemeral
world of our perceptions. In our search for the bedrock of reality,
we must turn to the ancient problem of whether the laws of nature
exist in an independent Platonic realm. Plato, however, had a
dualistic vision of reality. One was the physical world, fleeting
and impermanent, that was caused by the "Demiurge". The other was
the realm of Forms or Ideas, eternal and unchanging, acting as a
sort of abstract template for the physical world. Plato considered
mathematical objects to also belong to this Ideal realm.
SEARCH FOR REALITY: Physicists ask in what is responsible for
the mathematical laws of physics and other contingent features of
the universe? After all, science is a dialogue with nature. And
Nature seems to be encrypted with mathematical codes. If the
universe can be explained by mathematical laws, but it can't
explain itself, then it must be explained by something outside of
itself, namely a Self-Existent Universal Mind or Ultimate Reality.
But then, the age-old questions are asked: What explains this
Ultimate Reality? And does this Ultimate Reality explain Itself,
which is to ask, is Ultimate Reality Self-Existent? If Ultimate
reality is the reason for the universe, then It must be a Necessary
Being, for, if Ultimate Reality were contingent, what causes It?
Does the idea of a Necessary Being, a Being that contains entirely
within Itself the reason for Its own existence, make sense?
Plato's Timaeus consists of several arguments that might help
one to understand this. Plato's writings say that all contingent
things consist of both primary matter, the primary substance of the
universe, and a subtle counterpart, the form or fashioner, which
limits or shapes the primary substance into specific observable
things. There is a distinct parallelism in meaning between the
Forms of Plato and the attributes of Ultimate Reality. It appears
that the attributes of Ultimate Reality require the existence of
objects or creatures upon which they have been bestowed and in
which they become manifest. Strictly speaking, Ultimate Reality
cannot really be described in terms of attributes. The attributes
of Ultimate Reality are completely and utterly unknowable. As to
the attributes such as will, knowledge, power and other ancient
attributes that we ascribe to that Ultimate Reality, these are the
signs that reflect the existence of beings in the visible plane and
not the absolute perfections of the Self-Existent Essence that
cannot be comprehended. For instance, as we consider "created"
(Bruce prefers the translation "made") things we observe infinite
perfections, and the "created" or "made" things being in the utmost
regularity we infer that the Ultimate Reality on which depends the
existence of these beings, cannot be ignorant; thus we say It is
All-Knowing, Omniscient. It is certain that it is not impotent, it
must be then All-Powerful.
As in Plato's Timaeus, the divine Craftsman exists separately
from the Universe It fashions. According to Plato, the Ultimate
Reality exists entirely external to or outside the arrangement of
the universe. Does the Ultimate Reality really exist outside of
"creation" or "made" things? There seems to be no phenomenal
connection between Ultimate Reality and "created" or "made" things.
So Ultimate Reality would have to change Its state from before to
after the created or "made" universe, which is impossible. The
connection between Ultimate Reality and the creatures ("made
things") is that of the Maker (or Creator) to the universe (or
creation); it is like the connection between the sun and the dark
bodies of contingent beings, and is the connection between the
"maker" and the things it has made.
What is the first thing which emanated from Ultimate Reality?
The first thing which emanated from Ultimate Reality is that
universal reality, that the ancient philosophers termed the `First
Mind,' or `Universal Mind', and which the people of Baha call the
`First Will [or Word of God].' This emanation, in that which
concerns the action of the world of Ultimate Reality, is not
limited by time or place; it is without beginning or end. Though
the `First Mind' or `Universal Mind' is without beginning, it does
not become a sharer in the preexistence of Ultimate Reality, for
the existence of the universal reality in relation to the existence
of Ultimate Reality is nothingness. Thus, the Fashioner is the
Universal Mind, or as Baha'is say, the Will or Command or Word of
God. To Baha'is It is the "First Mind," the "Universal Mind," the
"Primal Will," the "Command of God," the "Word of God." The
Fashioner, as the Universal Mind, Primal Will or Word of God, is
not limited by time or place; it is without beginning or end. Since
every contingent thing must have an origin, the Universal Mind or
Word of God is the Cause which has preceded the contingent world,
which is being continuously re-created or "re-made" at all times.
The Universal Mind or Word of God is man's mystery, through which
man must approach Ultimate Reality.
The Universal Mind or Word Of God Is The First Cause Of The
Universe: Let us now carefully distinguish between cause and
creator or "maker". Although every creation (or universe) must have
a creator or "maker", Ultimate Reality is the Creator or "Maker"
but not the Cause of the universe. As stated above, a cause implies
a dependency with its effects. It is the Universal Mind or Word of
God which is the Cause of the entire creation or universe, while
all else besides the Universal Mind are but the creatures or "made
beings" and the effects thereof.
Somewhat analogous to Plato's Demiurge, the Universal Mind or
Word of God is the First Cause of the universe. The world of
existence is indeed created or "made" through the irresistible
Universal Mind or Word of God which is the Cause of the entire
universe or creation. Moreover, the Universal Mind or Word of God
is higher and far `superior to that which the senses can perceive,
for it is sanctified from any property or substance. It transcends
the limitations of known elements and is exalted above all the
essential and recognized substances. It became manifest without any
syllable or sound and is none but the Universal Mind or Command of
God which pervades all created or "made" things. It hath never been
withheld from the world of being. Every thing must have an origin
and every building a builder. So the Universal Mind or Word of God
is the Cause which hath preceded the contingent world - a world
which is adorned with the splendours of the Ancient of Days, yet is
being renewed and regenerated at all times.
The Ultimate Reality is not the inner reality of things. The
Universal Mind, also referred to as the Word of God, the Primal
Will, is the inner reality of things. The first emanation of the
Ultimate Reality is the bounty which emanates and is reflected in
the reality of the creatures or "made things", like the light which
emanates from the sun and is resplendent in creatures or beings;
and this bounty [the Universal Mind or Word of God], which is the
light, is reflected in infinite forms in the reality of all things,
and specifies and individualizes itself according to the capacity,
the worthiness and the intrinsic value of things.
THE FASHIONER AND THE FASHIONED: The Universal Mind, Primal
Will, or Command or Word of of God, is the First Cause and the
Fashioner of the universe. Then the "Fashioned" is primary matter,
which must also be spiritual in nature; the "Fashioner" is the
Maker, the Universal Mind, the Word of God, the Inner Reality of
all created (or "made") things. The Fashioner and the Fashioned,
the active force and its recipient, are the same, yet they are
different. Such as communicate the generating influence [the
attributes of Ultimate Reality, which are collectively one as the
Fashioner] and such as receive Its impact [primary matter or the
Fashioned] are indeed created or "made" through the irresistible
Universal Mind or Word of God which is the Cause of the entire
creation or universe, while else besides the Universal Mind are the
creatures and the effects thereof. Nature in its essence is the
embodiment of the Maker or "Creator". Nature is the Universal Mind
(or God's Will) and its expression in and through the contingent
world.
ATTRIBUTES OF ULTIMATE REALITY: The attributes of Ultimate
Reality are infinite. If It can be limited to human ideas, It is
not Ultimate Reality. Strange it is that, not withstanding these
are self-evident truths, humans continue to build walls and fences
of limitation about Ultimate Reality, so glorious, illimitable,
boundless. Consider the endless phenomena of Its creation or the
contingent universe. They are infinite; the universe is infinite.
ETHER: Ether was considered to be a very thin space-filling
medium through which light waves and electromagnetic waves, in
general, are propagated. This seemed to be natural to physicists,
since waves are usually observed as vibrations of something. For
example, water waves are vibrations of water, sound waves are
vibrations of air, water and solids. In 1887, however, Albert
Michelson and Edward Morley developed an ether "drift" experiment
to try to measure the relative difference in the velocity of light
while the point of measurement moved towards the sun in the morning
as well as away from the sun in the evening as the earth rotates
about its axis. This ether "drift" experiment assumed that if space
was filled with ether, the measurements should indicate a higher
velocity as the earth moved through the ether towards the sun as
well as a lower velocity of light as the earth moved through the
ether away from the sun. But no change in the velocity of light was
observed. It was then Einstein who declared that the velocity of
light is constant regardless of the velocity of the observer
towards or away from the source of light, which formed the basis of
his relativity theory. He then also declared that ether did not
exist, that light and all electromagnetic waves travel through
empty space in such a way that could not be explained. For quite a
while, few ever questioned his authority about ether.
EMPTY VOID: Today, physicists realize that the pristine
absoluteness of the vacuum state or "empty void" is vastly more
complex than the discarded aether. But the "empty void" as space is
not quite the same as the "empty void" of Ultimate Reality, or is
it? This may be only the tip of the iceberg; a zoo of particles
zoom in and out of this ethereal void! So the new ether or "empty
void" is now a reference frame for energy, at least potential
energy. All space, even so-called "empty" space, is overflowing
with energy and particles. Quantum mechanics shows that particles
do indeed pop in and out of the apparent void or vacuum. These
particles come in all shapes and sizes, and flit in and out of
existence over time and space. They are instantaneously created and
then usually swiftly vanish almost as quickly as they appear. As
long as they are far way from other "matter," this on and off play
repeats itself continuously. Many scientists know or and non-
scientists hear about this eery ballet of appearance and
disappearance of multitudes of particles of all sizes and shapes.
There are quantum mechanics rules for this turbulent weirdness of
so-called empty space. One rule is that the more massive the
particle the less frequent it appears. Since the quantum number for
the void is zero, then the corresponding sum of quantum numbers
must also be zero. Just how does this "overflowing void" of
potentiality create mass, charge, spin, and other attributes
peculiar to virtual particles and whatever else is borne from it?
These dancing particles borrow energy from the "empty void"
and pay it back when they return. They disappear back into the
"empty void" before the end of a time measured by an extremely tiny
fraction of a second, as specified by Heisenberg's uncertainty
principle. However, if energy is provided from the outside, then
the virtual and transient appearance can be converted to real
particle(s). Obviously the greater the energy used to produce a
particle out of the "empty void," the greater will be its mass.
WHAT MAKES UP THIS "EMPTY VOID"?. What kind of forces and
attributes lie within it? Is it formless and continuous? Does it
indeed permeate the universe? Does this quantum reality of an all-
pervading vacuum filled with "virtual particles," potential
"virtual particles," and banks of energy from which mass, motion,
charge, spin, energy, and whatever else is born from this fantastic
"ether" occur? Is it related to primary matter? In what way? Can we
identify it with primary matter somehow? From the considerations
made before, primary matter must be formless and continuous as well
as possess universal spiritual qualities which permeate the entire
universe as part of the potential "inner reality" of all created
things. Primary matter together with the active force which
fashions it must fill all "empty space" as an ethereal, invisible
power known only through the forces it exerts, such as
electromagnetic radiation. This ether is thus the sign of the
Universal Mind or Word or Command of God in the phenomenal world.
It is an eternal reality that is spiritual in nature and
corresponds to the constituent substance of all things, including
that of the human soul, which is fashioned with all of the
attributes of Ultimate Reality.
Even ethereal matter, the forces of which are said in physics
to be heat, light, electricity and magnetism, is an intellectual
reality, and is not sensible. It cannot be measured. We categorize
realities into basically two types, sensible and objective or
intellectual and abstract. Realities that are perceptible to the
senses are objective or sensible realities, whereas a reality that
"has no outward form and no place and is not perceptible to the
senses" is an intellectual or abstract reality.
PRIMARY MATTER: According to speculations and interpretations
of particle physics, electrons, protons, neutrons, neutrinos,
photons, gluons, quarks, etc., appear to be different states of
vibrations of some basic structure or substance. A basic question
of particle physics is "What is the ultimate stuff or substance out
of which everything in modern particle physics is made?" Physical
reality seems to be a complicated system of vibrations of unknown
fundamental substance sometimes referred to as primary matter.
Since primary matter is spiritual and is one aspect of the
universal reality also referred to as the Universal Mind, Primal
Will or the Word of God, could it be that we have a form of
pantheism in the sense that the Universal Mind or Word of God
constitutes the inner reality of all things? Is the Universal Mind,
Word of God, the Primal Will, resolved into infinite Forms? The
totality of Forms, which are the created attributes of Ultimate
Reality concealed within the Universal Mind or Primal Will, are
identical to the Primal Will. Nature is the Universal Mind or God's
Will and its expression in and through the contingent world. It is
endowed with a power whose reality men of learning fail to grasp.
Physical beings are no more than perceptible qualities of
objects which reflect the eternal realities in the primary matter.
Consequently, perceptible qualities of physical beings are being
renewed at every instant reflecting the eternal realities in the
primary substance of the universe. On the other hand, the eternal
realities or models are concealed within the Universal Mind, Primal
Will or Word of God. At every instant, all physical beings and
hence the fundamental particles of the universe are recreated or
"remade" by the Universal Mind or Word of God. At every instant,
the Ultimate Reality manifests Itself to Itself.
Primary matter together with the active force which fashions
it must fill all space as an ethereal, invisible power known only
through the forces it exerts, such as electromagnetic radiation.
This ether is thus the sign of the Universal Mind, Word or Command
of God in the phenomenal world. It is an eternal reality that is
spiritual in nature, and corresponds to the constituent substance
of all things (including that of the human soul, which is fashioned
with all the attributes of Ultimate Reality.)
=END=
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 16:00:15 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Buddhism
I would also like to say some things in defense of Bruce Burrill, and to
express my gratitude to him for his perseverence with us and for the work
he has put into responding to our ideas. He is a stimulating and
tenacious dialogue partner, and I've learned enormously from him.
Several posters have suggested that Bruce's views of Buddhism are
idiosyncratic. I do not think this is true. I think he has fairly
represented the Theravada tradition of Buddhism, as practiced by the
monks of Sri Lanka, Burma and Thailand. This tradition is less well
known among Westerners, for whom Chinese and Japanese Buddhism has been
more important (partially because of long commercial and political ties
with those countries, partially because Chinese classical civilization is
so important for all of East Asia, whereas in South Asia Sri Lanka is an
outlier).
To have someone on Talisman who was for seventeen years a bhikku in
Thailand is a real treasure for me.
I agree with him that Buddhism represents an undigested anomaly for
the theory of religions prevalent among US Baha'is, insofar as it is
non-theistic, does not use the language of Revelation, and is based on an
elaborate ethical and psychological theory that dispenses with the notion
of a soul. I myself think that these ideas are so original and so
seminal that they could only have come from a religious genius, and that
they most likely go back to Gautama Buddha himself. I think that
Baha'is, rather than trying to Baha'i-ize Buddhism, need to study it in
order fully to comprehend what progressive revelation really means.
You don't start with an elaborated theory and impose it on reality. You
start with reality and a hypothesis about reality, and build up the
theory from that. Baha'is have a very great deal to learn from Buddhism,
and no truly global civilization or truly universal religious tradition
could be constructed that ignored the Buddhist presence in human experience.
I am grateful to Bruce for helping us appreciate Buddhism in what is
probably its purest form, which is a prerequisite for the work Baha'is
have undertaken.
cheers Juan Cole, History, Univ. of Michigan
=END=
Date: Fri, 01 Mar 1996 15:22:27 -0600
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Bryan Stover
Subject: New Web site: Baha'i Graphics Gems
Dear friends,
This is not necessarily scholarly but good clean fun nonetheless:
Announcing the Baha'i Graphics Gems, a gallery and archive of
freely distributable original Baha'i art on the World Wide Web
at:
http://www.nwark.com/~bstover
There are several dozen images currently on display, many by
sometimes-Taliscontributor John Bromberek. Do drop by.
Talislurkingly, Bryan Stover
------------------------------------------------------------------
Bryan Stover, Fayetteville AR Baha'i Library
(501)839-3588
See the "Album of Views" and "Baha'i Graphics Gems" at
==================================================================
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 16:52:25 EST
Subject: The beat goes on....
Dearest Bruce Bruill,
I have on several occasions mistaken you for our other beloved
man who is overboard Uncle BB. Pardon my slowly approaching sinality
. I am going to be very honest from the bottom of my heart.
I admire your steadfast, honest, frank discussion on this forum.
I also tell you this. If I was in a room of people where these
discussions would be taking place, you would have a friend, ME!.
I may not know anything more than the Eight Fold Path, Four Noble
Truths and the story of Buddha's childhood from my World Religions
class, but I know one thing that people who confess belief in the
Oneness of Religion, Oneness of Humanity better get their act
together and become the **torch**-bearers of Light, rather than
running wild with knowledge as a pitch-fork and insisting that they
are the ones who are right. But, also I might add that let us not
have illusions for inclusiveness on all sides, Baha'is or Buddhists
alike. I've been to Zen Buddhists meditations a few times and didn't
sense the Spirit of unconditional warm welcome. Of course, it is like
saying "I held a grain of sand from the ocean and now I know it all"
No! I don't know what it is like being in a true Buddhist worship
service. I would love to experience it someday.
Please keep on this forum and don't give up!!
I would love for you to ponder on the subject of "Right Livelihood"
and how this teaching applies to contemporary Western economics.
I read "Small is Beautiful" by Shumacher. It's great philosophy.
love,
Quanta Dawn-Light (*_*)
=END=
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 21:24:06 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Mystic Knees up final report!!!!!!!!!
To: talisman@indiana.edu
The final report from the famous Mystics Bash, or things that Linda
forgot.
Dear Talismanians
The Friday afternoon found myself being accosted by a strange woman
crying : I need Derek they broke . I look at her and said: What have
you broke now Linda. It turns out in the USA Mid-West especially in
Indiana hot spices from the East are illegal substances. Linda
determined to make a stand for equality had purchased jars of the
Tandoori paste and hot Indian chilly sauce. In the Walbridge Mansion
Tuesday night is Hot Indian night . Linda operates from home the Ninja
Diner and charges $19.95 a head. John believes it is Linda s women
support group meeting and naturally stays away from such a dangerous
gathering.So Linda pockets all the money. Well, driving up from Los
Angles with the Langness , Linda had got into a fight with a Truck
Driver from Tulsa at the Los Banos Truck Stop. She laid-out the poor
chap with her hand-bag. But it contained twenty-two jars of Indian
spices many of which broke and did not arrive in Indiana. Linda her
hands dripping with the cooking elixir of the East. The surrounding
aroma causing the guests and staff alike to shout out orders to go with
strange exotic names. I turned to my best friend Dr. Burl: Burl who
would arrive shouting for help with their hands and attire smelling of
eastern spices from some Bazaar in Calcutta. Dr. Burl without a thought
said one word; Linda .
Linda posted to me the some chap had posted to her was an Angel. Sure
the Angel of death and destruction. Any way I noticed as Burl has that
Linda is trying to forget her revelation to us that inside she has
always felt herself to be an Arthur. Our dear friend Hannah< was Cary>
suspects you are just copying her.
Well it is true that Linda/Arthur, Burl and Derek have formed
themselves into the three Mysticteers. We are committed to spreading
truth , justice, equality and marmalade and toast. As part of our
training program we intend to go to Patagonia. Please send your checks
made out to L/ABD Patagonia Fund. I believe a certain Buddhist on
Talisman would be delighted to see us go to the far ends of Chile for
awhile.
The last person to leave was scoundrel Richard Logan he appeared on
Wednesday in my office. He had been hiding out from Linda in the
Wilderness area. As he left for Texas, I told him to turn left alas he
turned right and headed for the Pacific Ocean. We last saw him doing
the breaststroke in the general direction of Africa, his 9.5 gallon hat
firmly fixed on his head . That is a long way to Texas Richard.
Seriously it was wonderful having you here and we look forward to the
next one.Maybe Bruce Burrill would like to come, if he spend so much
time as a bhikku, he could share insights with us, how about it Bruce?
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 96 17:15 GMT+1300
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Alison & Steve Marshall
Subject: Checks and balances vs unity
Dear Talisman,
I experienced this fleeting moment at work when a lot of things came
together for me. You see, at work, we are four women - the three writers who
own the business, and Natasha our office manager. At the moment, we are
going through the process of getting our business ISO certified, which in
practice means that we put in place procedures that guarantee we have
covered our butts. For example, all agreements relating to contracts are
written down. I guess you could say that it ensures we have a paper trail of
what happens with all jobs that we do, and this gives us an objective
assessment of any aspect of our operations that we need to analyse -
especially if a client makes a complaint. (Perhaps you all know what ISO
certification is about anyway.)
The reason I bring this up is because I have had this ongoing conceptual
problem and it goes like this: does the concept of checks and balances
militate against the ideal of unity? You'll recognise the problem - I guess
the issue is pervasive for Bahais. I've decided the answer is no.
Now, I believe - and I'm very hard to impress - that the four of us at work
have always been a reasonably successful model of unity. I think this has a
lot to do with the fact that we are women, we do not compete, we support
each other, and no-one bosses anyone else - we consult instead. But despite
this, we have benefitted greatly from going through the ISO certification
process. As a result, we each know exactly where we stand in relation to our
clients, the work has been streamlined and the agreed standards have made it
easy for us to sort out problems. Overall, I would have to conclude that the
process has definitely been *conducive* of unity and harmony - it has
certainly increased our integrity.
I can see now that unity does not necessarily mean that we must all form a
warm, fuzzy mass, where no boundaries are articulated. And it is NOT
inconsistent with unity to want to make boundaries objective. My experience
of that model of unity is that structures and codes do exist in it, but
they're informal, entrenched and subjective - of course, because objective
procedures have not instituted them.
A Bill of Rights (for example) for Baha'is would therefore be the product of
a formalised, objective procedure whereby we all agree on the standards we
will live by. It is a good thing to do because it increases unity by
streamlining procedures and standards, anticipating problems and thereby
avoiding conflict. By establishing checks and balances, we are not saying
that we are failures, or that we have failed to be unified; nor are we
saying that we don't trust each other. We are saying that we want to
increase our unity by doing something that's intrinsically a good thing to do.
I have always associated checks and balances with distrust - a western
culture thing I guess. But now I can see their importance, even where people
get on.
Alison
--------------------------------------------------------------
Alison and Steve Marshall
Email: forumbahai@es.co.nz
90 Blacks Road, Opoho, Dunedin/Otepoti, Aotearoa/New Zealand
"Dunedin: the Riviera of the Antarctic"
--------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 96 01:05:22 UT
From: "Hannah E. Reinstein"
To: "Sadra" , "Burl Barer"
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Mysticism Conference Response
Quite seriously, my 17 year old son, Ben, said the same thing about your talk.
He appeared to pay great attention to all the talks, which is -- how can I put
this gently seeing as he's looking over my shoulder right now? --
uncharacteristic. I mean, hey Ben! Why don't you pay such attention in school,
huh? What do you mean, you want ten bucks to go to the movies? Wait... I'll be
back in a minute....
to be continued :-)
----------
From: owner-talisman@indiana.edu on behalf of Burl Barer
Sent: Friday, 01 March, 1996 0:54 AM
To: Sadra
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Mysticism Conference Response
Sadra@rt66.com wrote:
>In defense of my "obtuseness"
I missed this talk, but my 17 year old daughter stopped swilling Derek's
delicious malts long enough to absorb every word and report back to me that
it was "fascinating!" She said she wasn't quite sure she understood it all
(not the presenters fault, she added) but that it kept her fully enthralled.
Usually only Rikki Lake or Melrose Place has such a mesmerizing effect on
her, so it must have been spectacular!
BB
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer (ISBN# 1-56901-815-4)
May be ordered by any real bookstore. Accept no excuses. It is still only
$19.95 suggested retail. Order it!
********************************************************
=END=
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 23:53:52 -0600
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Bruce Burrill
Subject: Re: Mystic Knees up final report!!!!!!!!!
Cc: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Maybe Bruce Burrill would like to come, if he spend so much
>time as a bhikku, he could share insights with us, how about it Bruce?
>
>Kindest Regards
>Derek Cockshut
>
>
>
>
Thanks for the offer. I am not sure where Juan got 17 years for my stay in
robes. It was far more modest than that. It was for the traditional rains
plus a month.
Bruce
=END=
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 23:47:55 -0600
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Bruce Burrill
Subject: Re: The Buddha's criterion for accepting other Teachers
Cc: "Stephen R. Friberg"
Stephen,
> "It seems to me that using these criteria, or others that can be found
in the recorded sayings of the Buddha, is very conducive to useful
discussions about the relationship between the Baha'i Faith and
Buddhism, perhaps more so than the arguments now being employed."<
Sounds good. Could you expand a bit more as to what you have in mind?
Bruce
=END=
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 96 14:37:39 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg"
To: Bruce Burrill
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Too touche'. The debate about Buddhism.
Nima said:
> >Dear Bruce: We need to introduce you to Ibn `Arabi. Trust me, you're really
> >gonna like this guy. What say you, O wise Stephen?
What Stephen said about what Bruce is trying to explain to us:
>> >Putting it succinctly in a physicist's language, this reads "the
>> >Ultimate is *not* the Ultimate!"
Bruce said:
> Or as one author I was looking at said, the ultimate truth is that there is
> no ultimate truth. As for Ibn `Arabi, I'm all eyes.
Stephen says:
Right on! Right on!
As a starter (maybe not the best one), consider al `Arabi's statement
about the Essence of God. If you are from a culture that believes
in God, the question is: "What can you know about God's Essence?"
"In respect of Itself, the Essence has no name, since it is not the
locus of effects, nor is it known by anyone. There is no name to
denote It without relationship, nor with any assurance. For names
act to make known and and to distinguish, but this door [to the
knowledge of the Essence] is forbidden to anyone other than God,
since `None knows God but God.'
"So the names exist through us and for us. They revolve around
us and become manifest within us. Their properties are with us,
their goals are toward us, and their beginnings are from us."
Chittick, *The Sufi Path of Knowledge*, (SUNY, Albany, 1989), p. 72.
In other words, even if, for cultural reasons, we use "that God word",
ibn al `Arabi is telling us that we must directly face exactly the
same dilemna that Bruce is trying to make us aware of: All of our
attempts at description must fail, because they all start within
us and cannot transcend the limitations of their starting point.
[Those of you who have studied Immanuel Kant know that one of his
greatest contributions to European philosophy is quite directly
along these lines.]
If we take seriously what the Buddha has said about "clinging", then
it seems clear that we must not cling to any of the "names" we use,
including the name of God. But, by the same token, we should not
cling to the name of God "not" being used *provided* that there is
an understanding of the basic points about the nature of clinging
that the Buddha teaches.
(Above, I am saying that if names are not important, then it doesn't
really matter if you use them or not. Perhaps the best analogy is
Baha'u'llah's description of the Teachings as containing eternal
truths *and* social laws particular to a given time and place.
It appears to me that the Buddha's atheistic avoidance of names
and concepts of God is a social law subject to change. After all,
the end goal of His teachings is salvation. In the cultural context
of the time, this was well understood in the sense that it was
thought that there was an essential unity between individual
and absolute being. An important part of salvation was the personal
experience of such unity. But clearly, you can not be simultaneously
yourself and the absolute from a rational standpoint. So, correctly
in that context, one turns off the source of the question. Then,
I suppose, one just does it!)
It is towards such an understanding of the import of the Buddha's
teachings in this regards that Bruce is pushing us. These teachings
are tied together with the different religious philosophies, cultures,
and ways of life throughout Asia for what is perhaps the largest and,
some claim, the strongest part of the world's population.
Yours sincerely,
Stephen R. Friberg
=END=
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 23:44:09 -0600
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Bruce Burrill
Subject: naughty buddhist
I would like to say thank you to those of you who said the very nice
things about me. I am well aware that I am not always the easiest
person, being somewhat mono-maniacal and given to be being testy at
time. Again, thanks.
Bruce
=END=
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 23:46:11 -0600
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Bruce Burrill
Subject: Re: The Book of the Dead
Cc: Sadra
Nima,
> "Question: How do you see the *Bardo Todol* (The Tibetan Book
of the Dead) in the corpus of Buddhist literature?" <
My first response is to shrug my shoulders. It is a Tibetan composition,
and I do not believe that it is part of either the Tibetan Buddhist Canon
or it commentaries. It doctrinally belongs to the Nyingma school, and
the Dalai Lama says that it is an important Tibetan work.
> "The reason I ask is this: there seems to be (to me at least) a highly
pronounced Upanishadic metaphysical eschatology to its worldview. For
example, 'the realization of the luminosity of mind' doctrine expounded
in the text is the closest Buddhist idea to a Vedantic Atman notion I've
ever seen anywhere in any Buddhist literature. What are your views?"<
Luminous mind goes all the way back to the Pali texts (or it
equivalents). It has been years and years since I read the BT, so can't
really comment on it except in the most general of ways. It Tibet there
was a permutation of _tathagatagarbha_ (buddha-nature) thought and
Yogachara where luminosity and light and pure mind and such became
the focus of the doctrinal expression. The Dzogchen, Mahamudra, Maha
Ati stuff is much that sort of thing. Quite honestly, some of the twists
and turn of Tibetan Buddhism get me a little lost in trying to keep the
various schools and sub-disciplines straight with in it.
As for finding atman-like stuff in the BT, don't really know, but it
certainly is in the Tathagatagarbha literature, and very deliberately so.
Paul Williams MAHAYANA BUDDHISM (Routledge) gives a very nice
discussion of that:
"...the _Mahaparinirvana Sutra_ itself admits a Hindu influence in a
sense when it refers to the Buddha using 'Self' in order to win over non-
Buddhists ascetics."
It is interesting to look at how the authors of these texts push language
and Buddhist concepts towards what looks like an absolutist position
using absolutist sounding terminology, but then give it a Buddhist twist
and context. As Hakuin says, "The true self that is no self."
Sorry I can't be more informative. Have seen Thurman's new translation
of the BT?
Bruce
=END=
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 17:32:28 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Watsonville Teaching Project, latest news
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismanians
The latest figures are 115 new believers plus family members for the
Watsonville Project. At a gathering this week in Santa Cruz, there was
three enrollements including two people from a Portuguese
background
Subject: Re: Search for Common Grounds
Cc: coleman@olimp.irb.hr
Jack,
> 'An attempt will be made now to establish some "common grounds"
between some Buddhist and Baha'i-like concepts to initiate a sympathetic
dialogue. ... We will try to search for more "common grounds" by
considering the Buddhist concept of Ultimate Reality. At the heart of all
religions is the relationship of the individual human being with
the Ultimate Reality. Since there is no concept of God or Creator
in Buddhism in the same meaning as in most Western religions, this
Buddhist concept of Ultimate Reality (and, depending upon whose
translation you read, a Universal Mind and a Self-Existent Being)
according to the concept of Shunyata in Mahayana Buddhism.
According to these Buddhist texts, Ultimate Reality is also viewed
as an "empty void." This idea of Ultimate Reality viewed as an
empty void is a rich and productive one also conveying an extensive
variety of meanings.' <
As interesting as your exposition is, I think you have jumped the gun.
One of the points I have harped on repeatedly is that in order to find a
common ground you need to _first_ understand the players, which would
be here Buddhism and Baha'i. I'll leave it to you and the other Baha'is
to determine if your exposition is an accurate reflection of Baha'i
thought and one that we can work with. As for your above statement
about the "empty void," please cite your sources and please give a
careful definition of "shunyata." Without that we cannot proceed.
Bruce
=END=
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 08:17:05 +0000 (GMT)
From: Cu Chulain
To: Talisman
Subject: Houses of Worship
Dear all,
I was fascinated at the recent report of an LSA's decision to acquire a
church building for use as a Mashriqu'l-Adhkar. I knew that it was
possible to designate basically anywhere as a dawning place of the
worship of God, and that Baha'u'llah states that buildings erected for
the purpose of worship must be used for only that. My query is what role
can churches mosques and temples play in the future Baha'i world? Can the
use of such buildings circumvent the obligation to build nine-sided domed
Houses of Worship? or is this use of a Church only a *presently* viable
(albeit theoretically possible) alternative which will cease to be employed
when the temporal ascendancy of the Faith is such that we build what we like
when we want to?
Simon Mawhinney
=END=
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 08:28:22 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: mlp@sover.net (Marie L. Procter)
Subject: Mysticism Conference Report
Dear Nima,
Thanks for your post and for correct spelling of your name. I didn't
realize I had gotten it wrong. I'll consult with LuAnne about my
impressions of the Conference and get her input before sending a report to
the American Baha'i - thanks for the suggestion.
Also, Nima - I am sorry that my report didn't do more justice to your
presentation. Do you have a synopsis of your paper or could you summarize
your points for those of us who are less well versed in the intricacies of
theological argumentation. I would really appreciate the opportunity to
learn more about the Gnostic tradition and Mystic Praxis.
Thanks, Marie
=END=
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 08:28:18 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: mlp@sover.net (Marie L. Procter)
Subject: Mysticism Conference Report
Dear Hannah/Cary,
Thank you for your very kind response. I'm happy to know that you want to
share it with your community. I enjoyed meeting you very much and your
son, too. Also, I enjoy reading your posts, especially your Providence
post with story by Victor Hugo.
Regards, Marie
=END=
Date: 02 Mar 96 10:02:55 EST
From: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
To:
Subject: Churches/Houses of Worship
Dear Talismanians,
Simon's interesting query reminded me of a comment I heard long ago from
a wonderful Baha'i teacher, Magdalene Carney. As we drove through the
heavily church-intensive city of Montgomery, Alabama on our way to a
rural mass-teaching project early one morning, we passed an intersection
with four churches. Mag looked at each one, and began to laugh.
At first I suspected that her laughter came from the obvious disunity
exemplified by four different Christian denominations battling it out
for members, but as soon as she stopped laughing she said two words that
have stuck in my mind for good.
"Baha'i warehouses," she sputtered, breaking into laughter again.
At that time -- the early 1970s -- rural mass teaching among southern
blacks had already resulted in the conversion of a few entire churches,
minister, congregation and all. Mag explained, as soon as she could stop
her riotous laughter, that now she saw all churches in that way, as
waiting storehouses of potential worship and worshipers.
When we arrived in the small town that was our destination that morning,
we first went to the little church that served its black population. We
prayed there, and as we were leaving Mag stopped to read the plaque
affixed to its cornerstone. It said "Erected to the Glory of God, in
the Year of our Lord 1892."
Love,
David
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 1 Mar 1996 23:38:51 EST
Subject: Wisdom/Love
Mr. Derek wrote:
>The purpose of exchange for me has to be an enabling of
>the mind to expand and thereby one would hope to increase in wisdom
Why worry only expanding the mind when the wisdom calls for the
expansion of the heart too?? The beautiful prayer comes into mind
which ends with "Give me the wisdom to know the difference".
When knowledge floods the mind, open the windows of the heart
to let the sunshine in and let it radiate. Then, photosynthesis.
I am afraid
we seem to
only relate
with the mind
and not enough
through the heart.
love,
Cockshut,
> "If you bothered to read my general message it was not a personal
attack" <
A disingenuous statement if ever.... Of course it was a personal
attack.
> "I most certainly do believe you have developed your version of
Buddhism." <
Quanta Dawn-Light (*_*)
=END=
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 07:17:46 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Houses of Worship
To: talisman@indiana.edu
---- Begin Forwarded Message
My dear Simon
As any place that is designated for Dawn prayers becomes the local
Mashriqu'l-Adhar.Clearly any building regardless of the previous
function is fine.If the local community builds new, then the
requirement for the central worship structure is the nine sided
building that has come to be associated with Mashriqu'l-Adhars.I
suspect for many years to come Baha'is all over the world will acquire
existing buildngs and adapt themselves to the building's layout.In the
future though expect structures like the Russian Mashriqu'l-Adhar to be
built, with more functions than the worship aspect at the start.
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
Dear all,
I was fascinated at the recent report of an LSA's decision to acquire a
church building for use as a Mashriqu'l-Adhkar. I knew that it was
possible to designate basically anywhere as a dawning place of the
worship of God, and that Baha'u'llah states that buildings erected for
the purpose of worship must be used for only that. My query is what
role
can churches mosques and temples play in the future Baha'i world? Can
the
use of such buildings circumvent the obligation to build nine-sided
domed
Houses of Worship? or is this use of a Church only a *presently* viable
(albeit theoretically possible) alternative which will cease to be
employed
when the temporal ascendancy of the Faith is such that we build what we
like
when we want to?
Simon Mawhinney
=END=
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 96 08:01 PST
To: Cu Chulain
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Houses of Worship
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
> My query is what role
>can churches mosques and temples play in the future Baha'i world?
This is a trick question, sort of like the old "where do you bury
survivors". The answer is: The role of churches in the future Baha'i world
is as a meeting place for Christian worship. The role of mosques is Moslem
worship. The names themselves define the role.
"Consort with people of all religions"....and...."prefer all religionists
before yourselves" are two quotes I treasure.
BB
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer (ISBN# 1-56901-815-4)
May be ordered by any real bookstore. Accept no excuses. It is still only
$19.95 suggested retail. Order it!
********************************************************
=END=
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 96 16:22:16 UT
From: "Hannah E. Reinstein"
To: talisman@indiana.edu, a003@lehigh.edu
Subject: Women and old-world terminology
I'd like to suggest that the usage of the term secretary heavily influences
the general concepts about the position. No doubt, an assembly secretary holds
the most visible, and arguably powerful position on that body. In the US at
least, in domains outside of the Baha'i sphere, many persons associate the
term secretary with low-paying, slow-track, non-intellectual jobs. This is
stereotypical and probably a holdover from the earlier decades.
I work at a huge corporation with 19,000 employees that doesn't have
secretaries. The simplest clerical functions such as faxing are carried out
mostly by building receptionists. Executives type their own letters and so on.
Departments and teams all have organizational wizards with excellent computer
skills (spreadsheet, project management, online presentation), patience that
would impress a Hand of the Cause, and considerable training. They're called
Department Administrators or Admins for short. That title alone suggests a
different status and is far less gendered and old-fashioned than secretary. It
carries less old baggage in other words.
So, a little suggestion is to change the terminology to fit the importance and
dignity of the position in Baha'i administration. I also feel that if most
national-level secretaries throughout the Baha'i world are men, then that is
an indicator that the Faith remains male-dominated. The secretary holds a very
visible position at the national level. It may become a traditional stepping
stone to House membership (30+ years does not a tradition make). However, it
should not be that. I don't believe that eligibility for House membership
requires membership on a National Assembly anyway. Since Baha'i elections at
all levels represent nearly ideal democracy, that makes total sense.
These comments are off-the-cuff because I haven't had time to develop this
idea. Briefly, I suggest a term for assembly secretary that is clear of gender
baggage of all kinds. What are the terms in the earliest writings on Baha'i
administration and what cultural associations did the terms carry at the time
that they were first used? It would be interesting to know that.
Related thought: the position of highest service is really the position of
greatest power. True?
Just random thoughts. First day without coffee all day long in, well, 18
Baha'i months. Acckkk. Gasp.......
Hannah
IMPORTANT PS: I deplore political correctness. I take every opportunity to
lampoon it as knee-jerk thinking and a shallow excuse for real thought. My
thoughts about titles here are not suggesting a new form of politically
correct language for Western Baha'is. They are simply suggestions that some
terms have unintended gender associations and it's useful to be aware of that.
For example, it is all too common to see Baha'is writing about generic
assembly secretaries in phrases like: "she will be responsible for...."
Likewise, I've seen letters and articles about assembly chairs that read: "he
will be responsible for..." You get the drift.
H.
============
"For a long time it had seemed to me that life was about to begin --
real life. But there was always some obstacle in the way. Something to
be got through first, some unfinished business, time still to be
served, a debt to be paid. Then life would begin. At last it dawned on
me that these obstacles were my life." -- Fr. Alfred D'Souza
----------
From: owner-talisman@indiana.edu on behalf of a003@lehigh.edu
Sent: Wednesday, 28 February, 1996 5:32 AM
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: women
Regarding the discussion of statistics about the involvement of women on Local
and National Spiritual Assemblies, their positions; it seems that the
position of Secretary has been assumed to be traditionally a feminine role,
and therefore it is not considered an advancement that women are in the
majority in holding this position. Yet, at the National Level it is seen as
being a "stepping stone to the House", therefore men most often hold this
position at the National Level.
In my community, the Secretary is seen as the position of power on the
Assembly. It is held by a woman (as well as the Chair), and it is understood
that by doing so, we are giving a Feminine face to the Community as the LSA
deals with the general population through the Secretary and she is most often
its public voice. At the same time, I would consider it wrong to vote for a
woman over a man simply because of their sex. "Feminine styled" leadership,
with its inclusiveness and concerns for fairness to all in the community, is
simply a very important factor in choosing, whether it be practiced by a man
or a woman.
Bill
*-----------------------------------------------------------*
* Phone:610-867-9251 William George *
* Theatre Artist *
* 908 E. 5th. St. *
* Bethlehem, Pa 18015 U.S.A. *
*___________________________________________________________*
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: dcollins@LL.MIT.EDU, stephenf@jove.acs.unt.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu, bahai-discuss@bcca.org
Subject: Regrding 'Parable'
Date: 02 Mar 1996 10:07:44 GMT
Dan and Stephen-
You have recieved the response from Mr. Jones by now, and you may have
noticed that the list has been put on hold by the moderator, i.e. no posts
sent to it are going out to the list members.
I have sent a copy of my response to Mr. Jones to Mr. Birkland, told him that
the list was on hold, and indicated I would not make any further posts until
I had a response from him or other appropriate individual. I believe it
possible that this was a troll by a covenant-breaker.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 96 16:43:24 UT
From: "Hannah E. Reinstein"
To: Talisman@indiana.edu, "David Langness" <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
Subject: RE: Mysticism Conference Review
I agree completely with your comments.
Next February we already have a spot reserved for another
weekend, but I don't know if those delicate mid-Westerners
can handle another brutal California winter....
Can you imagine the ribbing that I got from co-workers this week after they
asked me about the weather down there? It was hilarious. Seattle, of course,
was dry, sunny, and warm.
I would prefer to see the scholarly presentations remain exactly at the level
that they are now. Some technical and professional conferences that I've
attended have successfully run side-by-side sessions for different interests
and backgrounds. For example, rather than weaken a brilliantly researched
presentation, it should be given for those who are at the level of
understanding that it requires. In other words, at a peer level.
Simultaneously, there would be a session for either mystics with practical
feet or with different interests such as art, cross-cultural mystical practice
and history, music and the like.
The momentum generated by this incredible conference will help to make that
possible and will probably cause more presenters and speakers to arise. The
effects that the conference had on my son and myself will last for years.
Thanks a thousand times to those who did the work to write papers, organize,
sing, lead, chant, show, dance, and facilitate this event.
At the very least, at the next conference, should I be blessed enough to be
able to attend, I plan to teach the true meanings of noble Latte and the
significance of its inner mysteries to all. That I shall do from the platform
of the most great coffee house and bookstore on this earthly plane. So, if you
don't know what a double-tall-skinny means in Seattle, you will.
Love,
Hannah
============
"Any fool can face a crisis -
it's this day-to-day living that wears you out."
- Anton Chekhov
----------
From: owner-talisman@indiana.edu on behalf of David Langness
Sent: Wednesday, 28 February, 1996 11:59 AM
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Mysticism Conference Review
Dear Talismanians,
Many others have commented on the Talisman Mysticism Conference,
but I thought I might take the liberty of adding a few thoughts.
Without a doubt, the conference succeeded beyond our greatest
expectations. We packed Bosch, the quality of the presentations
soared, the worshipful chanting, singing and dancing effected the
hearts of all present, and the collective impact of finally meeting
all of those folks who have only had monitors for faces during the
past year made all of our tear ducts dilate. Mine, anyway.
=END=
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 12:05:39 -0500 (EST)
From: lwalbrid
To: Talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: immobile women?
Dear Don, I confess that I have only been able to give Talisman little
attention of late, but your posting a few days ago on "the feminine" did
catch my attention. You seem to be saying that if assemblies are
"feminized" that a sort of stagnation will be built in; that women don't
instigate change. I wonder where this notion comes from? Women in
various cultures are often at the vanguard of social change. Certainly
the history of America bears this out. If women seem to accept the
status quo, it is generally because they are so confined in their
movement and in expression of their ideas, that they are powerless to do
anything about social conditions. Their only interest would be to make
the situation in which they find themselves as tolerable as possible.
However, case after case shows that once women are given some leeway,
they will come out and fight quite ardently for improvement in the life
of their societies. This seems to be a fairly universal phenomenon.
AS for Derek's description of my behavior at Bosch -- I asked JOhn if he
were not outraged by this portrayal of his poor, innocent wife. His
response: "I wasn't there. I can only presume all of this is true."
This oppressed one will now sign off.
Linda
=END=
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 12:05:32 -0600
To: bn872@freenet.carleton.ca
From: Bruce Burrill
Subject: Re: naughty buddhist
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Michael,
> "I read that The Enlightened One had said there was
no point in conversing on whether or not there was a
God or a soul or other such questions and that the
focus was to be to follow the Eightfold Path until we
arrived at the end of the desire to be reincarnated." <
I have heard this more than once that the Buddha supposedly _admitted_
an indifference to the question a creator god, but nobody has been able
to point out any particular text that would support such a view. On the
contrary the Buddha very deliberately addresses (in the DighaNikaya 1,
11, & 24) the notion of creator god and rejects its. Buddha in 24:
"There are some ascetics and brahmins who declare as their doctrine
that all things began with the creation by a god, or Brahma." And this
god is characterized so:
"That Worshipful Brahma, the Great God, the Omnipotent, the
Omniscient, the Organizer, the Protection, the Creator, the Most Perfect
Ruler, the Designer and Orderer, the Father of All That Has Been and
Shall Be, He by Whom we were created, He is permanent, Constant,
Eternal, Unchanging, and He will remain so for ever and ever."
which is a nice characterization of the brahmanical notion of the creator
god one finds in the early brahmanical literature, particularly the
Brhadaranyaka Upanishad, and it seems to fit for most every other
creator god notion that has come down the pike ("There is none other
God but Thee, the Almighty, the Most Exalted, the All-Powerful, the
All-Wise").
And this is rejected by the Buddha. This not indifference. Though the
Buddha's particular rejection is not a philosophical argument against a
creator god, it is rather a religious statement that is consistent with the
underlying ontology of Becoming that characterizes what the Buddha
taught.
Three more passage concerning god from the earliest Buddhist texts:
AN 3.62: "But those who have recourse to God's creation as the
decisive factor, will lack the impulse and the effort doing this or not
doing that. Since for them, really and truly, no (motive) obtains that this
or that ought to be done or not be done...."
"If God designs the life of the entire world -- the glory and the misery,
the good and the evil acts, man is but an instrument of his will and God
alone is responsible." J V.238.
"He who eyes can see the sickening sight, why does not God set his
creatures right? If his wide power no limits can restrain, why is his hand
so rarely spread to bless? Why are his creatures all condemned to pain?
Why does he not to all give happiness? Why do fraud, lies, and
ignorance prevail? Why triumphs falsehood, -truth and justice fail? I
count your God unjust in making a world in which to shelter wrong."
J VI.208
Now, my point is here not to argue that the Buddhist position is correct,
but to argue what the Buddhist position is. Had the Buddha thought that
there was some sort of ground of being from which everything came,
there is no reason for him to have not taught that that was the case,
whether we are able to comprehend it or not.
Bruce
=END=
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 17:34:52 +0100
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: lundberg@algonet.se (Zaid Lundberg)
Subject: 2B or not 2B? What's the question? [Buddhism]
Cc: Bruce Burrill
Dear Talisman/BB (Burl Barer/Bruce Burill?),
"Oh no, it's him again" . . . Fooled you Bruce and Burl! I didn't want to be
"sorely missed" . . . I know I know I've said I was going to unsubscribe
during the fast but . . .promises, promises, . . . what can I do when I'm
addicted to Talisman??? (Bruce, I was hoping that the promise was a joke,
and that's why I said it was hard to take you seriously!). Well, by wife is
a psychologist . . . may she can help me . . .?
Anyway, reading Juan's posting on Buddhism gave me a few unique (?) ideas .
. . Yes, I also would like to express my gratitude for having Bruce on
Talisman and sharing his unique (?!) ideas on Buddhism and for participating
in a dialogue with us Baha'is. It's truly a great privilege. however, to
make this discussion or dialogue even more interesting, multidimensional,
more challenging (especially to Bruce), and perhaps more fruitful to all of
us, it would be interesting to know if anyone could locate (on the Net or in
the "real" world) preferably a: *) Baha'i Buddhologist who also has been a
die-hard practicing Buddhist, *) Baha'i Buddhologist, *) Baha'i ex die-hard
Buddhist (who has memorized the entire Pali-kanon and more . . .). Please
notice that the suggested linear sequence isn't necessarily implying a
linear thinking on my part or a scale of judgement (I have a hard time with
circles . . .), although it would be great if the person also would be a
Boddhisattva/enlightened . . . or if Bruce would become a Baha'i you would
save us the work!? (Only kidding, but you know, people seriously doubted
that Saul would become Paul . . . Miracles have happened before in the
history of religion . . . Excuse the example. It's not to be taken literally!)
BBBB = Bruce Burill Baha'i Buddhologist (or am I seeing double?)
- Zaid
P.S. Please note that this was a *very short* posting . . . mmm do I feel
great!!!
**************************************
Marie-Louise & Zaid Lundberg
Foreningsg. 18 B Malmo
S - 211 44 SWEDEN
Phone: +46-40-234742
**************************************
=END=
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 96 07:43 GMT+1300
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Alison & Steve Marshall
Subject: suggested bill of rights slogan
I've thought up a slogan, which captures the essence of why it would be good
to create a Baha'i bill of rights:
"The Baha'i Bill of Rights: a demonstration of our love for each other
through our willingness to meet each other's needs."
Alison
--------------------------------------------------------------
Alison and Steve Marshall
Email: forumbahai@es.co.nz
90 Blacks Road, Opoho, Dunedin/Otepoti, Aotearoa/New Zealand
"Dunedin: the Riviera of the Antarctic"
--------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 14:26:34 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Subscribe Talisman
OK, I can't stand it any longer.
Resubscribe Talisman.
Tony
=END=
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 13:34:18 -0600
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Bruce Burrill
Subject: Re: 2B or not 2B? What's the question? [Buddhism]
Cc: lundberg@algonet.se (Zaid Lundberg)
lundberg,
> '"Oh no, it's him again"' <
I, for one, am ever so delighted, to be sure.
> "Yes, I also would like to express my gratitude for having Bruce on
Talisman and sharing his unique (?!) ideas on Buddhism and for
participating in a dialogue with us Baha'is." <
And well you should; however, my point is my ideas are hardly unique
at all, but very much in keeping with the traditions. People here keep
telling me that my ideas are unique, but as of yet no one has been quite
able to show that is the case.
> "It's truly a great privilege." <
Of course it is.
> "Baha'i Buddhologist" <
Robert Parry has been subscribed to Talisman. Maybe you can persuade
him to actively participate in the these terms. He is qualified. I would
be quite interested in hearing what he has to say.
> "if Bruce would become a Baha'i you would save us the work!?" <
If. The more I see of Baha'i the less likely....
> "mmm do I feel great!!!" <
As Stimpy would say, Happy, happy, joy, joy.
Bruce
=END=
From: Wilgar123@aol.com
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 15:38:40 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: correspondence theory and grace
Dear Juan,
It strikes me that correspondence theories of knowledge inevitably
lead, theologically speaking, towards notions of grace/predestination, for if
different minds see Reality in different ways (and there is only one
objective Reality), then unless one believes in demonic/satanic spirits who
beguile us, there must be an explanation as to why "my" (and my fellow
believers) view is correct while beliefs/views held by others are wrong.
Since reason never really solves the issue (as Nietzsche pointed out, if such
were the case most philosophical problems would have been settled long ago),
the next step is to accept that God must have "chosen" us through His grace
to see the Truth. On a grand scale this line of thinking easily ends up in
some type of predestination theory. What do you (or anyone else) think?
Love and laughter,
Bill G
Alameda CA
=END=
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 16:09:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: Wilgar123@aol.com
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: correspondence theory and grace
Bill: I think this is a good point.
Though I suppose that if one were determined, one could have a
predestinationist view of standpoint epistemology, such that "I see
things this way because I have a higher spiritual station than others,
who see things in ways appropriate to their stations, and it is God who
has bestowed upon me this station." In fact, I wonder whether the Ibn
al-`Arabi version of standpoint epistemology does not tend in this direction.
cheers Juan Cole, History, Univ. of Michigan
=END=
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 14:36:49 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Alma Engels
Cc: Talisman
Subject: Re: Star of the West
On Thu, 29 Feb 1996, Alma Engels wrote that "Michelle" had written to her
and said that she posted these quotes to "clarify" the meaning of the
Master's Will and Testament; and to support the use of Pilgrim Notes in
understanding the Covenant. Michelle also said that pilgrim notes are
more reliable than Texts, because they haven't been sifted by some
committee. I suppose by "some committee" she includes the Universal House
of Justice.
Without fail, Covenant-breaker efforts (and efforts of sympathizers, or of
people exposed to them) rely on pilgrim notes; they don't have the Texts
to support them. Manifestly, they are not going to say, "We know we are
acting contrary to the Will and Testament of 'Abdu'l-Baha," they are going
to justify themselves somehow. I was reminded of this while watching the
story of Adolph Eichmann on TV last night. When asked by his Israeli
captors about how he could gas women and children, he said that his use of
gas from Farben in Germany was actually humane, compared with driving them
around in a truck feeding the exhaust into the back of the van; and also
"we gave chocolate to the children beforehand, so they would not be
afraid." What I realized was that in his mind *he was right.* Otherwise,
he could not mentally survive. Likewise, Marangella and Remey and Carre
look for support *somewhere* so that they can justify their actions in
their own minds; otherwise, who could live with these words of
'Abdu'l-Baha being directed at him: "May the wrath, the fierce vengeance
of God, rest upon him!"
Whatever one makes of the importance of the institution of the
Guardianship, that is very different from providing one letter of support
in the Text for Remey or Marangella or the person Michelle Ma'ani's
friend/relative/cohort John Carre is awaiting, "The Man," i.e. a new
Manifestation of God. They try one tack, then another.
The first two of Shoghi Effendi's "World Order Letters" were written
because Covenant-breakers who opposed Shoghi Effendi relied on a
pilgrim's note. I believe that pilgrim's note is published in Star of
The West, and I think it is the one that states that the Baha'i Faith can
never be organized, that it is not an organization. This was thrown up
against the efforts of the Guardian in organizing the Baha'i
administration early in the Guardianship.
Shoghi Effendi then showed how the institutions of the Administrative
Order are firmly grounded in the explicit Tablets of Baha'u'llah and the
Master. The Guardian commented on the strange mentality of the enemies
of the Administrative Order, by making the point that it is a "strange
mentality" that places a certain pilgrim's note, an inaccurate rendering
of a partially understood utterance by the Master, above all of the
revealed Texts supporting the organization of the Baha'i Community. I
mention this to support what I earlier said: The enemies of the Cause do
not have the clear path of the Writings in their support. It's really
not even close; it's really not hard to spot them. They don't pass the
smell test.
> I would be interested in knowing how authentic the translation was of Abdu'l
> Baha's words.
I have not seen any of these passages anywhere else, including in the
volumes of the Tablets of 'Abdu'l-Baha; when were those 3 volumes
compiled? Did they predate this compilation published in 1916 in Star of
the West?
> If Michelle is Michelle Ma'ani, then she may be trying to sow
> doubts in the minds of Baha'is she thinks are susceptable. And I suppose my
> posts in srb make me a target.
I think that's a sensible response. You and many others are targets on
these internet mailing lists.
Brent
=END=
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 16:41:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Baha'u'llah's "The Garden of Justice"
Friends:
I have always thought that our meditation upon the Writings has even more
power during the season of the Fast, and I thought I would share with you
a provisional translation I had done of one of Baha'u'llah's
Adrianople/Edirne Tablets, "The Garden of Justice" (Ridwan al-`Adl)." It
was published by the Iranian Baha'i Publishing Trust in Athar-i Qalam-i A`la
vol. 4, pp. 299-319 of the 1968 edn. A short passage from this Tablet was
translated by Shoghi Effendi,*Gleanings* LXXXVIII, and is marked by
asterisks, below.
This Tablet was written for one Muhammad Rida, but it begins as an
address to God's Name, Justice. This Name of God--Justice--is personified,
almost recalling for me the Zoroastrian/Iranian-Muslim Angel, Surush, or the
ancient conception of Mithra as guardian of the sanctity of contract.
Ironically, Baha'u'llah bids Justice itself be just, and humble. He
refers to Justice as an ornament for Rulers, necessary to their
sovereignty. This is in line with classical Perso-Islamic thinking about
justice and kingship. Baha'u'llah also looks forward to the rise of just
monarchs and rulers. This Tablet was probably written in winter-spring
of 1867, at a time before Baha'u'llah decisively promulgated the ideal of
constitutional monarchy and parliamentary governance, which he does only
once he arrives in Akka.
He chastises the Babis for not accepting Him, and includes an
important passage comparing the Bab to John the Baptist and himself to Jesus.
He refers to the Covenant, and grounds it in the Pre-Existent Scene, when
God asks His creatures-to-be, "Am I not your Lord," and they reply
"Bala"--Yes! This is in Baha'u'llah's view the Primal Covenant. He
refers repeatedly to the image of a Garden in which the trees of Justice
are planted. The word used for Garden, "ridwan," has connotations also
of paradise.
A few laws and principles of the Aqdas are anticipated in this
tablet, including the command to be just and fair, to be polite, and the
command not to engage in fighting with the people and not to shed blood.
In the rough and tumble world of the Iranian bazaar at this time, and
given the militancy of many Babis, these commands represented a new ethic.
This Tablet toward the end refers to some Baha'is who were
recently martyred. The first Baha'is to be martyred were Mirza Mustafa,
Shaykh Ahmad, and Mirza `Ali Naqi, all of Khurasan, at Tabriz on 8
January 1867. These three believers had been en route to Edirne to see
Baha'u'llah, but were arrested by the Iranian authorities in Tabriz. I
think it most likely that these are the martyrs referred to by
Baha'u'llah in this Tablet, which would then date it to winter-spring, 1867.
As usual, I want to stress that this provisional translation is only my
own work; it has not been properly Reviewed, and is supplied only for
private study, not for public use of any sort. Comments on problems of
style or translation are very welcome; there are no doubt some minor
errors that will need to be corrected here.
Enjoy the Fast.
cheers Juan Cole, History, Univ. of Michigan
3-2-96
The Garden of Justice
Baha'u'llah
Provisional Translation by Juan R.I. Cole,
Department of History, University of Michigan
This is the Garden of Justice.
In the Name of God, the Just, the Wise
This is a Tablet, wherein God hath sent forth His Name, the
Just, and hath breathed the spirit of equity into the temples of all
created things. Thereby might all preserve pure justice and judge
themselves and others, nor transgress against it to the extent of a
blemish on a date pit.
O this Name! We have rendered Thee one of the suns of Our
most beautiful Names between the heavens and the earth. Shed Thine
illumination upon all things created by Thy powerful and wondrous
lights, that perhaps the people might gather under Thy penumbra and
cast the darkness behind them, and shine with Thy holy and luminous
rays. O this Name! We have made Thee the source of Our justice
among those of Our servants who have drawn near. By means of
Thee, the justice of every just one is made manifest and our servants
who are advancing toward Us have been emblazoned with Thine
ornament.
O this Name! Beware lest this station entice Thee away from
submission in the presence of God, the Mighty, the Omnipotent.
Know that Thy relationship to Us is the same as that of any other, and
there is no difference between Thee and aught else created between
the heavens and the earth. For when We seated Ourselves upon the
throne of justice, We created the contingent creatures by a Word from
Us. Thus was Thy Lord wise with regard to all things. And we raised
some of the Names up to the realm of eternity as a bestowal of grace
from Us, for, verily, We are Powerful, Exalted, Mighty and Wondrous.
Say: Verily, no relationship exists between Him and His creation.
Praised may He be above all that He hath created and all that of which
Our servants make mention. The relationship that binds, which is
mentioned in the Tablets, only appeared from His Will, which was sent
forth from His Volition, and which in turn was generated by My all-
encompassing and irrevocable decree.
We have, however, chosen Thee out especially and exalted
Thee in this Tablet, that Thou mightest give thanks to Thy Lord and be
among those who have attained detachment. Beware lest the
exaltation of Thy name become a barrier between Thee and God, Thy
Lord and the Lord of the Worlds. Verily, We exalt whoever We
please by Our decree, and verily, We are Powerful to accomplish
whatever We purpose and Sovereign in achieving what We wish. See
nothing in Thyself save the effulgence of the sun of the commanding
Word, which rose from the horizon of the lips of the Will of Thy Lord,
the Merciful, the Compassionate. See in Thine essence neither power
or might, neither movement nor stillness, save what deriveth from the
decree of God, the King, the All-Powerful, the Omnipotent. Move
with the breeze of Thy Lord, the Exalted, the Most Glorious, not with
the gales that blow from the direction of self and passion. Thus doth
the Most High Pen command thee, that Thou mightest act accordingly.
Beware lest Thou be like the one whom We adorned with the
ornament of the Names in the realm of creation, for when he gazed
upon himself and the exaltation of his name, he turned against the very
God Who created and nourished him, and plummeted from the highest
of stations to the lowest of the low.
Say: The Names are as garments, with which we array
whoever We please among Our devoted servants, and which We strip
from whoever We desire by Our command, for verily We are the
Omnipotent, the Sovereign, the Omniscient. We give our servants
now, at the time of Our withdrawal, the same counsel we offered them
at the time of bounty. Thus, know the command of thy Lord and be
completely assured that nothing can detract from Our Potency, and
that the hand of Power shall never be chained up, if Thou art among
those who know. Say: The glory of each Name that knoweth its Lord
and hath not transgressed against His law increaseth every moment,
and at every instant there shineth upon it the sun of the loving-
kindness of its Lord, the Forgiving, the Generous; and it ascendeth by
the ladder of detachment unto a station that shall never reveal aught
but its Creator nor speak save by His leave, nor move save by His
Will. Verily, He is the Mighty, the Just, the Knowing, the Wise.
O this Name! Take pride within Thyself, insofar as We have
made Thee the dawning-place of Our justice in all the worlds. We
shall dispatch from Thee manifestations in the realm, whereby the
pavilions of tyranny shall be folded up and the carpet of justice rolled
out between the heavens and the earth. By means of them, God shall
efface the traces of despotism from the world and adorn all corners of
the earth with their names among the worlds. Because of them, the
mouth of visible and invisible being broke into a smile. They are the
mirrors of My justice among My servants and the dawning places of
My names among My creation. By them, the hands of oppression are
cut off, and the right arm of the Cause is strengthened. Thus have We
decreed in this preserving and sanctified Tablet.
O that Name! We have rendered Thee an ornament for rulers.
Blessed are they if they adorn their temples with Thee, do justice
among the people with pure truth and right, and make their decrees in
accordance with what God hath ordained in His mighty and pre-
existent Book. No ornament was ordained for them better than Thee,
and by Thee their sovereignty is made manifest, their mention is
exalted, and their names are commemorated in the kingdom of God,
the Mighty, the Great. Whoso hath deprived himself of Thee is naked
between the heavens and the earth even if attired in all the silk in the
world. O concourse of monarchs, array your heads with the crowns of
justice, that all regions of the land might be illumined by their light.
Thus do We command you, out of Our grace upon you. O concourse
of kings, God shall make manifest in the land rulers who shall repose
upon cushions of justice and decree for the people that which they
decree for themselves. These are the flower of My entire creation.
O people, clothe your bodies in the robes of justice, for it
becometh all souls, if ye be among those who know. So, to, is it with
good manners and fairness, and We require both in most of the
Tablets, that ye may act accordingly. Verily, He hath only commanded
Our soul to perform what is best for it and will benefit it in this world
and the next. He is able, in Himself, to dispense with the actions of all
others and with the insight of the learned and the perspicacious.
Verily, God hath by this Name in this Tablet shed His effulgence on all
things. Blessed are they who are illumined by its rays; and those who
have attained it--they are Our servants who have drawn near. Verily,
We have, with the hands of might, planted in this garden the trees of
justice and watered them with the springs of grace. Each one of them
shall bring forth its fruits. Thus hath the matter been irrevocably
decreed. We are by Ourselves the Ordainer of decrees.
O manifestations of justice, when the gales of might blow,
summon the people of the Bayan and remind them of this Great, this
Most Great Announcement. Then ask them, "O people, by what proof
have ye believed in `Ali (the Bab) and yet have rejected the One of
Whom He gave glad tidings in all the Tablets. Examine matters
critically, O ignorant ones. Fear God, O concourse of the heedless!
Do ye assert your faith in My Herald while disbelieving in My own
Self, the Mighty, the Wise? Your likeness is as those who believed in
John, the Prophet, who proclaimed to the people the kingdom of God.
But when the Word (Jesus) became manifest, they rejected and
slandered Him. The malediction of God be upon the wrong-doers!
John had called the servants each and every day in His loudest voice,
and concluded with them the Covenant of the Word of God,
prophesying to them that they would attain His presence. In the end,
John sacrificed His own life out of love for that glorious and wondrous
Soul. But when the veil was rent and the Most Great Word appeared,
they opposed Him, and said, "He has transgressed against the
commandments of John." Thus have their base selves deceived them,
insofar as they were deprived of meeting their Lord, the Mighty, the
Powerful.
Among the idolaters was he who said, "The message of the son
of Zachariah hath not yet been vindicated in the land, nor hath His
sovereignty been established among the servants throughout the
countries. Before it is established, no other should arise." Thereby did
he display haughtiness toward the Spirit (Jesus) and he joined the
opposition to Him.
Another said, "John baptized the people with water, but the
one who hath appeared baptizeth only with the spirit and associateth
with sinners," just as ye hear similar sayings from the people of the
Bayan in these days. They repeat the charges of the former, nay, they
say what none hath ever said before. Woe unto those who follow the
idolaters.
Say: O people of the Bayan, stand ashamed before the Beauty
of your Lord, the All-Merciful, Who hath appeared in the center of the
cosmos with evident and perspicuous proof. The One who came to
you aforetime named `Ali (the Bab) gave you the glad tidings that ye
would attain My presence, and informed you of My Self. He did not
move save out of love for Me, nor exhaled save that He breathed My
mention, the Mighty, the Wondrous. He informed you that all
illumined ones would be cast into the shade by His glory, and every
woman with a suckling babe would forsake her newborn, and every
woman with a burden in her womb shall cast her burden. Thus hath
the matter been revealed from the kingdom of the Will of thy Lord, the
Exalted, the Omniscient.
And when the Hour came, at a time when ye were heedless
thereof, and the beauty of the Beloved dawned forth from the horizon
of the Will of your Lord, the Powerful, the Almighty, ye turned away
from Him and opposed Him, rejecting His signs and joining partners
with His Self. Then ye desired to shed His holy, pure, potent and
unattainable blood. O people, fear God, and do not circumscribe the
Cause of God with the limitations of your own selves. Verily, He
decreeth, as He pleaseth, His command. He is, verily, the Help in
Peril, the Mighty, the Omnipotent. Say: By God, He speaketh in My
breast, calleth out in My spirit, and uttereth by My tongue. Verily, He
it is Who wakened Me by the breezes of His Cause and inspired Me to
speak forth between the heavens and the earth. Say: By God, the
Mighty, the Exalted: Thus might I be among you and hear from you
what no ear hath ever heard aforetime. But God made Me manifest in
truth and I was enjoined to worship none but Him and to remind you
of what is best for you in the kingdom of the heavens and the earth.
Had this matter been in My hands, I would not have manifested Myself
among those idolaters, but He, verily, chooseth and doeth as He
pleaseth, and decreeth what He willeth.
O people, look not upon Me through your eyes or the eyes of
your leaders, for by God, the Eternal Truth, that shall never profit you
in any way, even should ye appeal for help to the first creatures to be
created. Rather, look upon My beauty with My eyes, for if ye gaze
with the eyes of anyone else, ye will never know Me. Thus hath the
matter been revealed in the Tablets of God, the Almighty, the
Glorious, the Wise. Say: O people, I do not call out among you by
Myself or for Myself. Rather, He calleth out as He willeth to His Self
and to His servants. To this beareth witness My wailing and My
plaints, and the lament of My heart, if ye be equitable. Can the dove
caught up in the gales of the Will of God regain her balance? Nay, by
Him Who caused Me to speak forth with the truth! Rather, they move
her as they will. He, verily, decreeth that which He desireth. Her
motion, and her agitation in herself, bear witness to her truth, if ye but
knew. Look, O people, at the change undergone by the reed pipe that
falleth into the fingers of the Will of its Lord, into which the breath of
the All-Praised bloweth. Can it be silent in itself? Nay, by your Lord,
the Mighty, the Beneficent. Rather, He will cause to appear from it
divers melodies, according to His wish, for He is, verily, the Glorious,
the Sovereign, the Powerful. Or, can the sun rise above the horizon of
the Cause without giving light, or can it deny things its illumination?
Nay, by the Self of Baha, every fair-minded and perceptive person will
bear witness thereto.
Say: O people, the Most High Pen is moved by the fingers of
the power of your Lord, the Exalted, the Most Glorious. This was not
from Me, rather from God, your Lord and the Lord of your ancient
forebears. And you, O concourse of idolaters! Do ye oppose this Pen,
or the One Who wieldeth it by His sovereignty? Say, woe unto you!
What ye have done hath bewildered the concourse of the worlds.
Then, the eye of justice weepeth for My Self, and the Reality of Justice
lamenteth the harm and tribulations that have befallen Me, and crieth
out at what hath been perpetrated against Me by those who were
created by My Will, who pride themselves in having stood in My
presence, and who sought blessings in the very earth trodden by My
powerful and unattainable feet.
O manifestation of Justice! Verily, I make My plaint unto Thee
concerning those who disbelieved and joined partners with God after
they had been promised to My Self in all the Tablets, and in a Tablet
that God preserved in the treasure hold of His impregnability, and
guarded it from the eyes of all His creatures. Say: O people! Behold,
ye have arrived in the Garden and have discerned a rose. Smell it, if ye
perceive therefrom the fragrance of perfume. Fear God, reject Him
not, nor be of those who knew and then denied, and fell into disbelief.
If any persons could be found with a sense of smell, they would
perceive in everything that hath appeared from Me the fragrance of
God, the Sanctified, the Almighty, the Generous.
O manifestations of this Name, ye were created by My decree
and were sent forth by My volition. Beware lest this station deprive
you of humility in the presence of your Lord, the Glorious, the
Omniscient, on a Day when God cometh in the shadows of the clouds
with great dominion; when the spirit of life is breathed into the people
of the universe; when the Garden is adorned by My name, the Mighty,
the Munificent; when human beings are renewed by the adornment of
the All-Merciful; and when all things are arrayed with the robe of the
Names by the Creator, the Wondrous. Verily, ye were created for that
Day. Fear God, and deprive not yourselves of that sublime grace. O
ye who are named after that Name: Let not the names beguile you on
that Day. Hasten unto the precincts of grace, even if the clouds of the
Cause rain down upon you all the darts of wrath. Beware lest ye
restrain yourselves therefrom for less than an instant. On that Day, no
one shall possess anything; and on that Day, the decree shall belong to
God, the Omnipotent, the All-Wise.
Say: O people, be faithful to the covenant of God, and break
not the pact to which ye swore in the world of pre-existence, in the
Presence of God, the Mighty, the Glorious, the All-Knowing. Say:
Then open your eyes! By God, the Eternal Truth, He hath resurrected
all on that Day, at that time. And God hath come in the shadows of
the clouds. Blessed be God, the Dispatcher, the Mighty, the Exalted,
the Great. Then shall all who are in the heavens be stricken with fear,
and all the people of the concourse on High shall lament, save for the
one who hath been taken by the hand of the Most Glorious by virtue of
His mighty, exalted and most high Sovereignty, the one who hath had
the veils obscuring his sight torn by the fingers of the divine decree,
and the one whom God hath delivered from those who were in doubt
about attaining the presence of God, the King, the Mighty, the
Beauteous.
Say: By God, all the Names have undergone an alteration, the
wailing of all things hath gone up, and every soul is agitated, save
those resurrected by the breaths of the All-Merciful that have wafted
from the precincts of Your Lord, the Compassionate. For it hath
wakened them from their slumber and cleansed them of the defilement
of the idolaters. O Tongue of Pre-existence, cause the verses to flow,
since the ears of the people shall never be able to hear what was
revealed from the heaven of Thy creation and the fundament of Thy
Will. Therefore, bestow upon them, according to their capacity, the
mention of T hy doings. Verily, that is manifest justice.
O people of the earth, know that justice hath planes, stations
and meanings beyond reckoning, but we shall sprinkle upon you spray
from this ocean so as to purify you from the filth of tyranny and render
you among the sincere. *Know verily that the essence of justice and
the source thereof are both embodied in the ordinances prescribed by
Him who is the Manifestation of the Self of God amongst men, if ye be
of them that recognize this truth. He doth verily incarnate the highest,
the infallible standard of justice unto all creation. Were His law to be
such as to strike terror into the hearts of all that are in heaven and on
earth, that law is naught but manifest justice. The fears and agitation
which the revelation of this law provokes in men's hears should indeed
be likened to the cries of the suckling bab weaned from his mohter's
milk, if ye be of them that perceive. Were men to discover the
motivating purpose of God's Revelation, they would assuredly cast
away their fears, and, with hearts filled with gratitude, rejoice with
exceeding gladness.* Say: Even though autumn gales denude the
trees of their spring ornamentation, they do so only so that other
adornments might appear. Thus hath the matter been decreed by the
Mighty, the Omnipotent.
By justice every deserving person is given his due. This
occureth as ye witness it in the manifestations of being, not as most of
the people have alleged. Then ponder, that ye might know the intent
of that which hath been revealed from the wondrous Pen. Say: The
justice of the One at whom the pillars of tyranny have been shaken and
the stanchions of idolatry have crumbled consists in the affirmation of
this Manifestation in this Dawn, wherein the sun of Baha' hath risen
above the horizon of eternity with evident dominion. Whoso
disbelieveth in Him hath departed out of the citadel of justice, and his
name is recorded among the wrongdoers in mighty and guarded
Tablets. Whoso accomplisheth all the deeds in the heavens and the
earth and doeth justice among the people until the end that hath no
end, yet hesitates in this Cause, hath wronged himself and is among the
unjust. Await, O people, the days of justice. Verily, they have come
in truth! Beware lest ye veil yourselves therefrom, or join the ranks of
the heedless.
Say: O people, array your temples with the adornment of
justice. Then judge by what God hath decreed in the Tablets and be
not among the transgressors. Say: Should anyone take a drink of
water at My command, that is better than the worship of all who are
on the earth. For God will never accept the deed of anyone save if it is
embellished with the ornament of My permission among the worlds.
Observe, O people, what We have ordained in the Tablets, for it hath
been revealed from the kingdom of God, the Help in Peril, the Mighty,
the Powerful. Whoso averteth his gaze upon perceiving the fragrance
of the garment of My name, the All-Merciful, will, verily, see in all
things the signs of his Lord, the Just, the Wise. O Pen of the Most
High, send forth the servant named Rida after Nabil as one of the
manifestations of justice in the realm of creation. Verily, his justice
lieth in his belief in God, which is not equaled by the justice of the
heavens and the earth. O servant, listen to the shrill sound of the Pen
of the Most High. Then gather the people on the shore of the Most
Great Ocean, which hath appeared by virtue of this ancient and pre-
existent Name. Safeguard the servants of the All-Merciful, lest the
countenances of insight be bruised by the blows of the allusions of
Satan's manifestations. Thus hath thy Lord, the Glorious, the
Beneficent, commanded thee. Observe what thou hast been
commanded by the Mighty, the Beauteous. Be as a high wall between
the Magog of idolatry and the hosts of the All-Merciful, lest the hordes
transgress their bounds. Thus was the matter revealed from the
kingdom of the decree of thy Lord, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.
Verily, We have made thee a reminder from Us among our servants,
and rendered thee a fortress for Our creatures among the worlds, that
thou might preserve them from the darts of allusions and remind them
of this Announcement, whereat the temples of the Names have
quavered, faces are covered with dust, the earth of grandeur hath been
cleft, and the fruits have fallen from every towering, unshakable tree.
Blessed art thou, insofar as thou hast shattered the graven
image of idle fancy with the power of thy Lord, and thou has cast off
from thy temple the cloak of blind obedience,
adorning it instead with the robe of divine unity by means of this holy,
blessed, exalted and all-encompassing Name. Then know that the
concourse of the Bayan rose in opposition to their Lord, the
Compassionate, and rejected the One in Whom they believed--after
We had counseled them in all the Tablets not to veil themselves by
means of anything created between the heavens and the earth. Among
them is he who disbelieved in Me, yet reciteth My words, and among
them is he who taketh pride in books revealed on My behalf aforetime.
Say: Today, were all who are in the heavens and on earth to be loaded
down with priceless Books, from which the breaths of my Cause and
the fragrance of My love did not waft, they shall never be mentioned in
the Presence of God, thy Lord and the Lord of the worlds. Say: Woe
unto you, O people! All that which descended from the heaven of the
Bayan was revealed for the sake of My mention and in praise of Me, if
ye be of them that know. Say: Woe is you, insofar as ye have broken
the covenant of God and tossed it behind you, and returned to your
abode in the deepest abyss.
O My Name, I am left alone among the concourse of the
Bayan, after the Bayan was only revealed for the sake of the mention
of My wronged and peerless Self. O people, fear God! By God, the
Primal Point never drew a breath save that He mentioned Me, never
spoke save to praise Me, nor was the beloved of His heart any other
than My radiant and illumined Beauty. Know that the idolaters have
attributed wrongdoing to the One from Whom the temples of justice
were sent forth, and by Whom the lights of grace dawned. This is
what the malefactors have wrought towards Me. This land will
undergo an alteration because of their iniquity, and affairs shall be
thrown into disarray. Thus doth the All-Knowing tongue of truth
inform you. The tablets of hellfire have been distributed in all the
lands, and the manifestation of Satan passeth by you with a book.
Therefore, say: O servants of the All-Merciful, leave them behind and
turn your faces toward the Word of God, the Invincible, the
Wondrous. For all that was revealed from all pre-eternity, and all that
descendeth from the glorious and exalted Firmament doth not equal a
single letter thereof.
O My Name, purify My servants from the breaths of anyone
but Me and attract them by the wonder of My melodies and words.
Then cause them to soar into the heavens of My nearness and good-
pleasure. Perhaps they will set out toward the sanctuary of My glory
and the house of My grandeur. Thus hath it been revealed in truth,
for, verily, this is a revelation from thy Lord, the Exalted, the
Knowing. Then forbid them from shedding blood. We have
proscribed it in all the Tablets, but they have made the laws of God a
laughingstock and left behind the fortress of the Cause, and were
among the heedless. But the harm wrought by their deeds redounds
upon the root of the tree. The matter was thus, if thou art among
those who hear. Those who contend and fight with the people have
departed out of the Garden of Justice and are accounted among the
wrongdoers in the Tablets of the Mighty, the Preserver. And those
who have been martyred in the path of God in these days are among
the most exalted of beings. For they mentioned God out loud, insofar
as the multitude of enemies did not deter them from making mention
of God, their Creator, until they met martyrdom and were among
those who attained. When their spirits ascended, they were greeted by
the entire Concourse on High, bearing the standards of the Cause.
Thus was the matter decreed in truth by the Powerful, the Wise.
Say: O My God and My Lord, Thou art the One Who planted
the trees of justice in the garden of Thy Cause and Thy Wisdom. Then
safeguard them, O My God, from the tempests of fate and the
thunderbolts of calamity, that their branches and twigs might be
uplifted in the shadow of Thy grace and the precincts of Thy mercy.
Then cause to dwell in their leafy shade, O My God, the sincere ones
among Thy creatures and the near ones among Thy servants. Thou
art, verily, the Forgiving, the Compassionate. We have created the
garden of justice by Our power and might and dispatched it unto thee
with the fruits of the Glorious, the Wondrous. Then taste of its fruits
and rest in the shade of its foliage, shielded from the fire of the
idolaters. Thereby hath the bounty bestowed upon thee been
completed, that thou mightest be among the thankful. Praise be to
God, the Lord of the worlds.
*The passage between asterisks was translated by Shoghi Effendi,
*Gleanings* LXXXVIII.
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: lwalbrid@indiana.edu
Cc: Don_R._Calkins%*@commonlink.com, Talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Re: immobile women?
Date: 02 Mar 1996 16:27:46 GMT
> if assemblies are
> "feminized" that a sort of stagnation will be built in; that women don't
> instigate change.
Linda -
That's not what I intended, which does not mean that not what I said. 8-)
What I have been thinking about for several years and was trying to suggest
in that post was that there is a polar opposite to the present
over-masculinization that would be just as probblematical. By
over-masculinzed, I am referring to taking the masculine principles to their
ridiculous extreme. There are those who seem to believe that re-structuring
society in purely feminine terms would eliminate our problems. I don't
believe that is true. I believe that if an over-feminized society, one in
which the feminie principles were taken to the ridicuous extreme, were to
exist there would be problems serious problems that would be as inimical to
further progress as our current ones are.
In speculating on both what the feminine principles are and what an
over-feminized society might be like, it seems to me that many of
characteristics would be the opposite of what we see as masculine
stereotypes. Most of these center around and are extensions of individuality
and change. The opposite of these are family/community and stability.
Taken to their ridiculous extreme, we could have a bee-hive type mentality
that stifles individual initiative. A few people have suggested that this is
indeed the situation that the societies of the northern temperate zone found
themselves about 10,000 years ago.
In neither case would the attributes of the other be eliminated; but they
would be far overshadowed and difficult to express. The ideal individual
would be defined solely in terms of the dominant. I believe that this is the
situation in which we find ourselves today. The feminine attributes have not
disappeared, but they are considered non-essential; an outstanding individual
is recognized by the extent to which they express masculine attributes. I
think you have betrayed this prejudice when you used the word 'stagnation'; a
lack of change, by my hypothesis a masculine attribute, is seen by you not as
stability, a positive condition, but as stagnation, a negative condition.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
From: StrayMutt@aol.com
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 18:16:35 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Go sit in the corner
Hello, again:
I read a rather cryptic blurb in the March 2 edition of The American Baha'i
that Bruce Wilson of Des Moines, Iowa has been stripped of his
administrative rights and forbidden from attending Baha'i activities. Does
anyone out there in Middle America know what this is all about? I don't know
Bruce Wilson, but I am curious what's going on here. Blame it on the fact
that I am an ex-newspaper reporter. Curiousity is considered a virtue in
that profession.
Bob Ballenger
=END=
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 16:46:48 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Juan R Cole
Cc: Wilgar123@aol.com, Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: correspondence theory and grace
> Though I suppose that if one were determined, one could have a
> predestinationist view of standpoint epistemology, such that "I see
> things this way because I have a higher spiritual station than others,
> who see things in ways appropriate to their stations, and it is God who
> has bestowed upon me this station." In fact, I wonder whether the Ibn
> al-`Arabi version of standpoint epistemology does not tend in this direction.
Juan: Yes, it does. And the Shaykh al-Akbar is fully grounded in the Quran
for holding such a view: i.e. "are they equal those who know and those
who know not? "
yrs, Nima
**************************************************************
* Paradox is a characteristic of truth. What communis opinio *
* has of truth is surely no more than an elementary deposit *
* of generalizing partial understanding, related to truth *
* even as sulphurous fumes are to lightning. *
* *
* --From the correspondence of Count Paul von Wartenburg *
* and Wilhelm Dilthey *
**************************************************************
=END=
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 16:46:48 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Juan R Cole
Cc: Wilgar123@aol.com, Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: correspondence theory and grace
> Though I suppose that if one were determined, one could have a
> predestinationist view of standpoint epistemology, such that "I see
> things this way because I have a higher spiritual station than others,
> who see things in ways appropriate to their stations, and it is God who
> has bestowed upon me this station." In fact, I wonder whether the Ibn
> al-`Arabi version of standpoint epistemology does not tend in this direction.
Juan: Yes, it does. And the Shaykh al-Akbar is fully grounded in the Quran
for holding such a view: i.e. "are they equal those who know and those
who know not? "
yrs, Nima
**************************************************************
* Paradox is a characteristic of truth. What communis opinio *
* has of truth is surely no more than an elementary deposit *
* of generalizing partial understanding, related to truth *
* even as sulphurous fumes are to lightning. *
* *
* --From the correspondence of Count Paul von Wartenburg *
* and Wilhelm Dilthey *
**************************************************************
=END=
[end of 3/2/96 session]
Talisman emails received 3/3/96
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 17:22:07 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: immobile women?
To: talisman@indiana.edu
---- Begin Forwarded Message
Return
My dear Linda
We did not publish the worst aspects of your behaviour at the
school.John is so wise to know the things you get up to, also the
Langness would like the family silver back please. By the way where do
we send the bill for the broken plates, glasses and window panes.
Ever your best friend Derek
AS for Derek's description of my behavior at Bosch -- I asked JOhn if
he
were not outraged by this portrayal of his poor, innocent wife. His
response: "I wasn't there. I can only presume all of this is true."
This oppressed one will now sign off.
Linda
=END=
Date: Sat, 02 Mar 1996 18:29:06 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Carol_Bowie@mindlink.bc.ca (Carol Bowie)
Subject: Re: immobile women?
Dear Don and Linda,
In one of my previous posts I described a summer school session Carol and I
coordinated about 15 or so years ago. In order to break the participants
into workshop groupings we devised a way of sorting them by "masculine",
"feminine" or "balanced" traits. This was just a homemade effort and had no
scientific or sociological content. And we were looking at "stereotypical"
qualities. I must add that the test although home-grown did not depend on
our subjective analysis for grading.
We did find that all three groups were composed of both genders and varying
ages. So some women were in the "masculine" group and some men in the
"feminine" one.
We also found that during the week the masculine group was indeed the most
efficient but least integrative of newcomers, while the feminine one just
couldn't get started on tasks but was the most integrative of newcomers.
Since the school was "Training for Assembly Service", their first task was
to elect their officers. In the "masculine" group, someone said "well to
get things going why don't we just have a prayer and elect" In the
"balanced" group they looked in the compilation and the by=laws to see what
guidance their was. then, having determined that the person receiving the
highest number of votes would call the first meeting, they drew straws to
see who that would be and then proceeded with their election. The
"feminine" group got to know one another and never did get all their
officers elected at that session because no one would be proactive enough to
check with us or with the compilation or to just get on with it, and only
started the balloting when they realized time was almost up.
At one point the "feminine" group asked for our consultation to see why they
were having trouble getting started and it turned out that nobody was
willing to take on a proactive leadership role and everybody was having such
a good time getting to know one another anyway. Even after they had elected
their officers they had trouble getting started.
Now, before anyone jumps down my throat, let me stress we are considering,
as Don mentions, extreme positions.
What that school did for the participants was to assist us in realizing that
all this talk about "balance" and "different voices" is more than theory and
has very practical implications for the administration now and in the future.
>> if assemblies are
>> "feminized" that a sort of stagnation will be built in; that women don't
>> instigate change.
>
>Linda -
>That's not what I intended, which does not mean that not what I said. 8-)
>
>What I have been thinking about for several years and was trying to suggest
>in that post was that there is a polar opposite to the present
>over-masculinization that would be just as probblematical. By
>over-masculinzed, I am referring to taking the masculine principles to their
>ridiculous extreme. There are those who seem to believe that re-structuring
>society in purely feminine terms would eliminate our problems. I don't
>believe that is true. I believe that if an over-feminized society, one in
>which the feminie principles were taken to the ridicuous extreme, were to
>exist there would be problems serious problems that would be as inimical to
>further progress as our current ones are.
>
>In speculating on both what the feminine principles are and what an
>over-feminized society might be like, it seems to me that many of
>characteristics would be the opposite of what we see as masculine
>stereotypes. Most of these center around and are extensions of individuality
>and change. The opposite of these are family/community and stability.
>Taken to their ridiculous extreme, we could have a bee-hive type mentality
>that stifles individual initiative. A few people have suggested that this is
>indeed the situation that the societies of the northern temperate zone found
>themselves about 10,000 years ago.
>
>In neither case would the attributes of the other be eliminated; but they
>would be far overshadowed and difficult to express. The ideal individual
>would be defined solely in terms of the dominant. I believe that this is the
>situation in which we find ourselves today. The feminine attributes have not
>disappeared, but they are considered non-essential; an outstanding individual
>is recognized by the extent to which they express masculine attributes. I
>think you have betrayed this prejudice when you used the word 'stagnation'; a
>lack of change, by my hypothesis a masculine attribute, is seen by you not as
>stability, a positive condition, but as stagnation, a negative condition.
****************************************************************************
Carol and David Bowie
109-32040 Peardonville Road,
Abbotsford, BC, V2T 6N8
phone/fax: 604 855 4172
email: Carol_Bowie@mindlink.bc.ca
Apathy can only be overcome by enthusiasm, and enthusiasm can only be
aroused by two things; first by an ideal which takes the imagination by
storm, and second, a definite intelligible plan for carrying that ideal into
practice. (Arnold Toynbee)
****************************************************************************
=END=
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 14:16:01 ?
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: saberi
Subject: Subscription
PLease subscribe
saberi@acay.com.au
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: StrayMutt@aol.com
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Go sit in the corner
Date: 02 Mar 1996 19:47:49 GMT
Bob -
Unfortunately, I was a member of the Assembly that recommended that Bruce's
administrative rights be removed. Bruce has proven to be, over a period of
many years, a persistant disruptive influence at local, regional and national
events.
I can assure you that over the past three years there have been numerous
meetings with Bruce by the local Assembly, representatives of the local
Assembly, and representatives of the national institutions. The decision was
not taken lightly. Having been personally involved for about 5 years in this
situation, I found it exhausting and depressing. God willing, I will *never*
have to go thru' something like this again.
Bruce is a musician who has performed for many Baha'i and non-Baha'i
activities. In a follow-up letter the National Assembly has said that while
he is not to be used for any Baha'i activity or by any institution,
individual Baha'is may use his talents for personal non-Baha'i activities.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
Date: 02 Mar 96 22:15:59 EST
From: Mike Somerby <102464.2703@compuserve.com>
To: Talisman
Subject: Joining Talisman
What do I need to do to join Talisman?
-- Mike
=END=
From: StrayMutt@aol.com
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 22:49:28 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Iranian Apostasy Punishment
Hello, again--
Thanks to Moojan and Wendy Momen of England (Hi, Moojan, Hi, Wendy) and Ahang
Rabbani, we all read the translation of the verdict by the Islamic
Revolutionary Court in Yazd in what I guess could be called the case of
People v. Mahrami.
(By the way, Moojan and Wendy, you modestly titled your rendering a
"provisionary translation." Why? Are you planning to send it to the court
in Yazd with a request that they touch up any rough spots? I think your
version, which struck me as accurate and fair-minded, is as good as any.
Translation is more art form than exact science anyhow.)
I don't know about anybody else here, but I found the document to be
fascinating reading. But it did leave me with a few questions that I hope
someone with more knowledge of contemporary Iranian jurisprudence than I can
answer.
F'rinstance, I gather Dhabib'ullah Mahrami's "crime" was to convert from "the
misleading and wayward Baha'i sect" [what a great, screwy descriptive phrase
-- just the sort puffed up revolutionary jargon that lends itself to satire]
from Islam and then to recant that conversion. Apparently, that's what's
meant by the verdict of "national apostasy," although I found that phrase
baffling. What the hell is "national apostasy"?
According to the court record, Mr. Mahrami appeared before the judicial panel
on three separate occasions -- I guess that's Iran's version of the "three
strikes and you're out" laws that are all the rage here in the U.S. -- before
going to formal trial and conviction.
That verdict, at least if I read the court record correctly, appears to be
based on several texts written by the Imam Ruho'llah Khomeini. Well, Iran is
free to adopt anyone's code of laws the nation or its leadership chooses.
Heck, if Napoleon could re-write Europe's criminal codes in the early 19th
century and make that stick, why shouldn't Khomeini do the same thing for
Iran?
Let's ignore the fact that the Khomeini Code violates Article 18 of the
United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, guaranteeing freedom of
religion, including the freedom to change religions, even though Iran is a
signatory to that Declaration.
What I wonder about is the relation between the Khomeini Code and the Qur'an,
which forms the spiritual basis of the Islamic Republic. Does the Qur'an
sanction the crime and punishment for which Mr. Mahrami was convicted and
sentenced? Or is this "national apostasy" something goofy that Khomeini
dreamed up all on his own?
Finally, I found myself equally amused and appalled by the revolutionary
court's assertion that its verdict was based on "the damaging consequences of
his [Mahrami's] leaving the true religion of Islam and rejoining the Baha'i
sect which, according to the indisputable principles accepted by reasonable
people, is a clear insult to the beliefs of over one billion Muslims."
How many other local courts would presume to speak for every Muslim in the
world? That's the problem with revolutions. They tend to swallow their own
grandiose rhetoric.
Bob Ballenger
=END=
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 20:57:30 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: LuAnne Hightower please e-mail
Sorry to take bandwidth. LuAnne jan, please e-mail me. I've lost your
address.
Your little cyber-soul-brother, Nima
**************************************************************
* Paradox is a characteristic of truth. What communis opinio *
* has of truth is surely no more than an elementary deposit *
* of generalizing partial understanding, related to truth *
* even as sulphurous fumes are to lightning. *
* *
* --From the correspondence of Count Paul von Wartenburg *
* and Wilhelm Dilthey *
**************************************************************
=END=
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 22:40:12 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: StrayMutt@aol.com
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Iranian Apostasy Punishment
Dear Bob--
The verdict of the Revolutionary Court of Yazd against Mr. Zabi'ullah
Mahrami has its precedents in Islamic law. Very, very basically, it is based
on a specific (and, mind you, very narrow) reading of a verse from the Quran
which states that all true believers are enjoined to "amr bi'l-ma'ruf wa
nahy an munkar" (promote the good, and prohibit [or resist against]
evil). From this an entire jurisprudential corpus arose on the specifcs
of how to deal with cases of apostacy occuring in the ummah (community).
Mind you, there is also another verse in the Quran that seems to
contradict applications of severe penalties in cases of religious
dissidence/or even apostacy in very explicit language (at least my
reading of the verse seems to lead me to interpret it in that manner): i.e.
the famous "la ikraha fi'ddin" (no compulsion in religion). Treatment of
apostates, however, does have its precedents in the Sunnah (tradition,
way) of the Prophet Himself; muslim apostates (or political turncoates,
whichever ones interpretative preference may be) were dealt with brutally
(i.e. mostly by death) by the Muslims during the wars against the pagan
Quraysh. These are some meesly examples wich our resident Islamicists can
elaborate upon in greater depth.
On "national apostacy": since Twelver Shi'i Islam is the offical state
religion of Iran, and since only Judaism, Christianity and Zoroastrianism
are the *only* other legitimately recognized faiths in the Constitution
of the Islamic Republic of Iran, and since the Baha'i Faith is an officially
proscribed religion, Mr. Mahrami, according to the pseudo-nationalistic,
fascist, theocratic tenets of the IRI, has committed "national apostacy."
This also means that according to this regime Islam and Iran are equally
synonymous enties; an understanding that smacks right in the face of
Khoimeini's vision of an 'Islam knowing no borders'.
By the way, a few months back one of our relatives in Iran forwarded us a
decision by the Islamic Ministry of Justice officially disbarring my
grandfather from any further legal practice in Iran: my grandfather was a
provincial, higher court judge for twenty-seven years before he went into
private practice. It took them seventeen-and-a-half years to finally get
to his file, and the reason given for his disbarrment was due to his
association with the 'wayward Baha'i sect' (garaveedan be-ferqe-ye
zAle-ye Baha'i).
Seems like the IRI is having internal problems again (what else new!),
thus Baha'is are being scapegoated as "national apostates"or "agents of
zionism," etc.; a periodic occurence whenever the regime seeks to divert
the masses attention from more pressing issues.
yrs, Nima
**************************************************************
* Paradox is a characteristic of truth. What communis opinio *
* has of truth is surely no more than an elementary deposit *
* of generalizing partial understanding, related to truth *
* even as sulphurous fumes are to lightning. *
* *
* --From the correspondence of Count Paul von Wartenburg *
* and Wilhelm Dilthey *
**************************************************************
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: 102464.2703@compuserve.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Joining Talisman
Date: 03 Mar 1996 01:51:38 GMT
$10 for each current subscriber. 8-)
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 09:13:56 ? (GMT)
From: Cu Chulain
To: Talisman
Subject: Garden Of Justice
Many many thanks to Juan Cole for sharing his translation of the Holy
Writings. It is simply the perfect gift for Ala, and I'm sure many of us
can spend meditative moments of the month getting to know this newly
available Tablet.
I would like to ask about the opening paragraph. It says
"Thereby might all preserve pure justice and judge themselves and others."
This seems to me to indicate a judgemental approach to others, where in
actual fact I interpret the tone of other relevant passages in the
Writings of Baha'u'llah to be one of support for the policy of 'removing
the plank' in ones own eye before complaining about the sand in anothers.
Is there another interpretation which the original text imply, or
perhaps an alternative syntax?
Baha'i greetings
Simon Mawhinney
=END=
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 08:21:50 -0500 (EST)
From: Joan Jensen
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Language and 'Soundprint'
Dear Friends,
This morning on public radio there was a program by 'Soundprint' about
the human ability to acquire language. I thought information on the
presentation would be fun to use in a Fireside or Deepening on the
development of a universal auxiliary language, and so emailed them for
more information. There are actually four casette tapes that can be
ordered on this topic, and each looks fascinating. So I wanted to share
this information with you.
To get the full message (it's short) from Soundprint, send an email to
, and in the subject write .
Warmly, Joan
******************************************************************
This message contains:
1. A description of the programs in The Talk Show series,
produced by Ira Basen of the Canadian Broadcast Corporation
2. Cassette order information
...........................1.
"BORN TO TALK"
How are children able to learn incredibly complicated syntax and grammar --
even when no one teaches them? Case studies help put together the pieces
of the language puzzle.
"THE SEARCH FOR THE MOTHER TONGUE"
It is thought that an early form of language first appeared two million
years ago. As the brain slowly developed, language became more complex.
Approximately 100,000 years ago, the first "Modern" language emerged.
Ira Basen explores the origins of language and the reasons why humans
needed to develop language.
"NATIVE TONGUES"
Fifteen hundred languages have arisen in the Americas, but within a few
decades, all but a handful of them will likely be extinct. Languages
around the world are dying at an unprecedented rate, and with them an
important record of a people's life and culture is being lost.
Jay Ingram looks at the native languages of North America, the controversy
over where they came from, and the threats to their survival.
"TALK OF THE FUTURE"
Whether it's the story of the wrath of God bringing down the Tower of
Babel and scattering the world's languages across the Earth, or the
influence of computers and television on the future evolution of
English, language holds us by its mythology and its currency. Jay Ingram
offers a consideration of the future of linguistics from bureaucratese to
Klingon.
...........................2.
SOUNDPRINT CASSETTES
SOUNDPRINT cassettes are available for US$12.50 each, including shipping
and handling. You may order by phone (202-885-1285) using a Visa or
Mastercard, or send a check or money order to:
SOUNDPRINT
4000 Brandywine Street, NW
Suite 620
Washington, DC 20016
=END=
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 14:49:35 ?
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: lundberg@algonet.se (Zaid Lundberg)
Subject: Angels and "Jaba the Hut"
Cc: Juan R Cole
Dear Talisman,
First of all I would like to thank Juan very much for his translation of
Baha'u'llah's _The Garden of Justice_ and for sharing it with us! (I haven't
read it yet but will surely do so a.s.a.p.).
We (me and my wife) went to quite a unique concert yesterday, Berlioz'
Requiem, which was quite an theophanic experience, and we could not but help
thinking about angels the whole time (since angels where projected onto the
curtains next to the enormous choir and orchestra). In reading the
concert-program I learnt that the greek word *angelos* etymologically means
*messenger.* O.K., that's all interesting, but what's the point? Well, a
couple of days ago a colleague of mine asked me if angels, from a baha'i
POV, are placed higher in the hierarchy in God's world than man? His
question puzzled me and I probably told him something unintelligable along
the lines that . . . man is the highest in God's creation since s/he can
reflect all the attributes of God, is created in the image of God . . .etc.
I was merely trying to convey to him what could be found in the Writings
where Baha'u'llah states:
"To a supreme degree is this true of man, who, among all created things,
hath been invested with the robe of such gifts, and hath been singled out
from the glory of such distinction. For him are potentially revealed all the
attributes and names of God to a degree that NO OTHER CREATED BEING HATH
SUCCEEDED OR SURPASSED." Gleanings [p. 177]
"Man, the noblest and most perfect of all created things." [KI, p. 102.103]
"From all created things He hath singled out for His special favour the
pure, the gem-like reality of man." [WroB', p. 402]
Yet, not only the Manifestations of God, whose souls are *preexistent*
(non-created?), seems to be on a higher level (which the ringstone-symbol
also indicates and many other references in the Writings), but both Muhammed
and Baha'u'llah (and quite a few other Manifestations of God) have received
their message from God via, what could be labled as, *angels*, i.e. either
Gabriel or a Maiden. Thus it makes perfect sense if angels etymologically
have been labled *messengers*.
Further, both Juan and Moojan elaborates upon the sufi-scheme of the
hierarchy of worlds (also found in the Seven Valleys) of: hahut, lahut,
jabarut, malakut, and nasut. (I still wonder where "Jaba the Hut" fits in?
Probably in "jabarut" . . .). Well, if I understand it correctly, both the
*abha-paradise* and *angelic realm* belongs to "malakut", right? My dilemma
is (according to my understanding of the Writings) thus as follows: man is
supposedly the highest being in creation, yet there seem to be other
(higher?) beings like the preexistent souls of the MoG and angels. I also
wonder if there are other beings in the worlds beyond "malakut" . . .?
So some of my questions are as follows:
1) What are the non-Baha'i references for such an hierarchy? (Juan, you
mention one, 'Ali al-Jurjani, at-Tarfat).
2) What are the Baha'i references (is the SV the only one or are there others?)
3) How are we to understand *angels* and the *angelic realm*. (Chris Buck
once asked similar questions about the field of angeology). Are they
"symbolic", "real beings", are there many dimensions of angels, one
symbolic, one literal, one allegorical etc . . .?
4) In this context, how are we to understand archangels like Gabriel (and
other angels in other religions: Rafael, Izrael, Uriel, Michael, . . .) and
the Maiden?
5) What is the relationship between the angels and the Manifestations of God?
I have one proposed solution to the above stated dilemma which I really
would see comments on. My suggestion is that Baha'u'llah, when he refers to
*created things*, refers to *nasut* only, and thus there is no contradiction
that there would exist higher beings (like angels) in the worlds beyond. Or,
alternatively, Manifestations of God and angels do not count as *created
things* since they are preexistent and thereofore uncreated? Further, the
angels could be various expressions of the holy spirit (theophanies) in the
way the Manifestation of God perceives "it/him/her", similarly to how people
who have Near-Death-Experiences perceives the *Being of Light* in the next
world . . .
I look forward to all brilliant insights on this most celestial topic during
this most elevated month.
- Zaid
**************************************
Marie-Louise & Zaid Lundberg
Foreningsg. 18 B Malmo
S - 211 44 SWEDEN
Phone: 40-234742
**************************************
=END=
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 06:47:06 -0800
To: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT ), talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re: Fwd: immobile women?
Dear Derek... From my point of view, it was not all Linda's fault! Stop
picking on my friend and pick on someone your own size... Alrigh-ta!
Now in Hot Water! Margreet
At 05:22 PM 3/2/96 -0800, DEREK COCKSHUT wrote:
>---- Begin Forwarded Message
>Return
>My dear Linda
>We did not publish the worst aspects of your behaviour at the
>school.John is so wise to know the things you get up to, also the
>Langness would like the family silver back please. By the way where do
>we send the bill for the broken plates, glasses and window panes.
>Ever your best friend Derek
>
>AS for Derek's description of my behavior at Bosch -- I asked JOhn if
>he
>were not outraged by this portrayal of his poor, innocent wife. His
>response: "I wasn't there. I can only presume all of this is true."
>
>This oppressed one will now sign off.
>
>Linda
>
>
=END=
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 09:46:42 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Fasting
The following is something that I have written on fasting. I hope it
will be useful, instructive, and/or entertaining.
john walbridge
*******
Fasting
Fasting is the voluntary abstention from nourishment, especially as a
religious practice. The Baha'i fast occupies the nineteenth month (`Ala')
of the Baha'i year, 2-20 March. Baha'is over the age of fifteen abstain
from food and drink each day from sunrise to sunset.
Fasting as a religious practice
Fasting has been practised from the beginning of history and in virtually
every culture. It can take various forms: abstention from certain
favoured foods, often meat; complete abstention from food and sometimes
drink for a specified time; or constant abstemiousness in diet -- eating
only one meal a day, for example. It is frequently associated with other
austerities, such as abstention from sexual relations and the abandonment
of all sorts of luxury. As a religious practice fasting serves various
purposes:
Preparation for a great deed or a new stage of life
Mourning
Penitence
Purification
Supplication
Quest for dreams and visions
Moral or religious protest
Some random examples will give an idea of the forms and purposes of fasting:
As part of their initiation as adults American Indian boys fast in the
wilderness seeking a vision of a guardian spirit.
Fasts are often part of the rituals associated with birth, marriage and
death.
The ancient Jews fasted in times of danger or disaster, both as a sign of
repentance and in order to avert God's wrath.
Modern Jews fast for twenty-four hours as a penitence on Yom Kippur.
Priests, holy men and sorcerers of various societies fast in preparation
for particular rituals.
In most mystical and monastic traditions fasting is practised as a means
of purification, especially for novices.
Roman Catholics traditionally abstain from meat on days associated with
the passion of Christ.
In the modern world fasting is sometimes a form of moral protest.
The Islamic fast
After the obligatory prayer, fasting is the most important ritual
obligation of the Muslim; it one of the five pillars of Islam. Leaving
aside the complex regulations deduced by the Islamic clergy, fasting in
Islam consists of deliberately abstaining from all food, drink and sexual
relations from the time of the first light before dawn until the last
light after sunset. The principal fast occupies the entire month of
Ramad@an, the ninth month of the Islamic year. This fast is binding on
all Muslims past the age of puberty, with the exception of those who are
travelling or unable to fast for reasons of health, such as sickness,
pregnancy, old age or the like. Those who do not fast are obliged to
compensate, preferably by fasting on another occasion or else by feeding
the poor. Those who deliberately fail to fast or deliberately break the
fast must compensate by fasting for two months or feeding sixty poor
people. Because the Muslim year is eleven days shorter than the solar
year, the fast of Ramad@an can occur during any season of the year. The
beginning of the month following Ramad@an is celebrated as the
`Idu'l-Fit@r, the holiday of fast-breaking, and is one of the great holy
days of the Islamic year. It is observed with feasts and celebrations
lasting several days.
Fasting is also encouraged at other times of the year,
particularly the two months preceding Ramad@an, on certain days of the
week and month, and on certain anniversaries. Fasting is also prescribed
in the Qur'an as expiation for offences ranging from manslaughter to the
breaking of an oath. The rules for such fasts are the same as those for
the fast of Ramad@an.
The Qur'an specifically identifies fasting as an obligation that
had been imposed in earlier religions. Muslims generally consider the
purpose of fasting to be the purification and humbling of the human soul.
The Babi and Baha'i fast
The Baha'i fast is established in the Kitab-i-Aqdas1 and occupies much
the same preeminent position that it does in Islam. Several passages in
the writings of Baha'u'llah lay stress on its importance, listing it with
the obligatory prayer as among the greatest of the ritual obligations.
According to Baha'u'llah Himself, the Baha'i fast is adapted from
the fast ordained in the Bayan. The Bab's fast, mentioned in both the
Arabic and Persian Bayans, occupied the last month of the Babi calendar,
the month of `Ala', roughly 2-20 March. Believers were to fast from the
age of eleven (numerically equivalent to huva, `He') until forty-two
(bala, `Yea'). Children could fast until noon for the first eleven days.
Those over forty-two were exempted from fasting. Those fasting had to
abstain from food, drink and sexual relations from sunrise to sunset --
preferably from slightly before sunrise until slightly after sunset. No
exemptions are mentioned. The real meaning of the fast, the Bab said, was
abstention from the love of other than the Manifestation of God. The
continuation of the fast was contingent on the acceptance of Him Whom God
shall make manifest.2
Although Baha'u'llah accepted the fast of the Bab, He altered the
details of its regulations in many important respects. The Baha'i fast is
binding on all believers from the age of maturity, which for Baha'is is
fifteen, until seventy. There is no provision made for children fasting.
The following individuals are exempted from fasting:
Travellers, providing their journey is to last at least nine hours or two
hours on foot. If they break their journey for more than nineteen days,
they are only exempt for the first three days after their arrival. If
they return home, they must begin fasting on arrival.
The sick.
Women who are pregnant or nursing.
Women who menstruating, who must instead repeat the phrase `Glorified be
God, the Lord of Splendour and Beauty' ninety-five times between one noon
and the next.3
Those engaged in heavy labour, who are advised to be discrete and
restrained in availing themselves of this exemption.
These groups are also exempted from fasting in Islam. Baha'u'llah does
not require missed days of fasting to be made up later, nor does He
mention abstention from sexual relations. An individual who is exempt
from fasting at any part of a day is exempt from fasting the entire day.
Smoking, `Abdu'l-Baha explained, is called `drinking smoke' in Arabic,
and so smoking is banned while one is fasting.4
The fast is binding on Baha'is in all countries but it is an
individual obligation, not enforceable by Baha'i administrative
institutions. The secondary regulations of fasting, such as the
prohibition on smoking, are at present only binding on Baha'is of Middle
Eastern background.5
Baha'is are allowed to fast at other times of the year but as
this is not encouraged, it is rarely done. Baha'u'llah permitted the
making of vows to fast but preferred that such vows be `directed to such
objectives as will profit mankind'.6
While in Edirne Baha'u'llah revealed a number of prayers for
fasting (munajat or alvah@-i-s@iyam), although one of them contains a
reference to `Akka. These prayers, some rather lengthy, are the most
important statements on the spiritual meaning of the fast in the Baha'i
scripture: for example, `. . . Thou hast bidden all men to observe the
fast, that through it they may purify their souls and rid themselves of
all attachment to any one but Thee . . .'7 Fasting itself is only
acceptable if it is done purely out of love for God.
1 Baha'u'llah, Kitab-i-Aqdas, para. 10.
2 The Bab, Arabic Bayan 8:18; Persian Bayan 8:18.
3 Baha'u'llah, Kitab-i-Aqdas, para. 13.
4 Baha'u'llah, Kitab-i-Aqdas, n. 32.
5
6 Baha'u'llah, Kitab-i-Aqdas, question 71.
7 Baha'u'llah, Prayers and Meditations, p. 79.
=END=
From: a003@lehigh.edu
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 1996 10:05:03 EST
Subject: Angels
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Zaid:
Such a lovely thought, angels, the Worlds of God...and then we start
getting into levels. What's the more powerful (?) state of being, the
superior versus inferior...
Levels.
Man, it has been written, is in the middle between the worlds of God.
It is written that he represents the Zenith of the material world and
the Nadir of the Spiritual.
If one turns away from God, the station is lower than the animals.
The highest station is that of absolute servitude.
In the Tablet of the Maiden, the Maiden is pictured almost like
the needle of a compass, pointing in whichever direction God so Wills, but
the metaphor strikes as being frighteningly mechanical--human free will so
much more glorious yet containing within it the seeds for rebellion.
Which station is higher?
And in the end, the concept of egress and regress of superior and
inferior, is an earthly concept. If we wish to walk with
the angels, we must obviously leave our limbs of conceptualization behind
and wing our way on the soaring soul of servitude and absolute
nothingness. Listen with the Deaf Ear, speak with the Silent Mouth that
crys from the Heart.
Levels? Yes. Now let someone with knowledge speak. I say these things.
They're the best I can do, but they have nothing to do with this stupid and
selfish soul.
*-----------------------------------------------------------*
* Phone:610-867-9251 William George *
* Theatre Artist *
* 908 E. 5th. St. *
* Bethlehem, Pa 18015 U.S.A. *
*___________________________________________________________*
=END=
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 08:24:22 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: immobile women?
To: talisman@indiana.edu
---- Begin Forwarded Message
My dear Margreet
I did not reveal your many sins at the school to the assemblied hordes
of Talisman. Let it be said certain staff members are still trying to
untie themselves from your 'quick' release daisy loops. Linda anyway
standing at 5 foot.10.5 inches is nearly my size 6 foot 1 inch, the
difference being she is a lot more dangerous.If you imagine I take the
slightest notice of the only chap named Motlagh who thinks she is an
Angel.Margreet numbers count, incidents count, broken chairs , glasses
, plates , window-panes. running on top of the cabin roofs yelling 'go
Hoosiers' at 5.00 o'clock in the morning. Pouring sugar in Tony Lee's
automobile's gas tank and throwing a snowball at a certain person and
then pretending it wasn't her.I could write pages on the various things
that happened and I might just do that. The World needs to know the
truth, Burl what do you think should we sday what Linda and Margreet
did at Bosch?Do we mention the throwing by them of a person in the lake
fully clothed?
KIndest Regards
Derek
Dear Derek... From my point of view, it was not all Linda's fault!
Stop
picking on my friend and pick on someone your own size... Alrigh-ta!
Now in Hot Water! Margreet
At 05:22 PM 3/2/96 -0800, DEREK COCKSHUT wrote:
>---- Begin Forwarded Message
>Return
>My dear Linda
>We did not publish the worst aspects of your behaviour at the
>school.John is so wise to know the things you get up to, also the
>Langness would like the family silver back please. By the way where do
>we send the bill for the broken plates, glasses and window panes.
>Ever your best friend Derek
>
>AS for Derek's description of my behavior at Bosch -- I asked JOhn if
>he
>were not outraged by this portrayal of his poor, innocent wife. His
>response: "I wasn't there. I can only presume all of this is true."
>
>This oppressed one will now sign off.
>
>Linda
>
>
=END=
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 08:35:06 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: immobile women?
To: talisman@indiana.edu
---- Begin Forwarded Message
My dear John
What a relief, does that cover the broken chairs and the damage from
Linda's 6 inch heels stomping on the Cabin roofs at 5.o'clock in the
morning?We are having a session at the school soon, Husbands in
recovery from under the stairs sleeping , would you like me to enrol
your dear self. I feel sure with the suffering you have gone through
you would qualify for a scholarship. Hundreds of people have posted to
me how bad they feel at the position Linda places you in.You
would merit being regarded as a living Saint, Burl what do you think?
Kindest Regards
Derek
Derek:
Not to worry about the crockery. Linda carries the special
"Obstreperous
Traveler" policy from the Hoosier Mutual Insurance company [French
Lick,
Indiana]. It was developed for a prominent but unnamed family of rock
stars from here in Indiana. Just send them the bill, with photographs
of
the damage. They will take care of it.
Sorry for any inconvenience.
john
=END=
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 13:38:19 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: PHELPS@PUPGG.PRINCETON.EDU
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Baha'u'llah's "The Garden of Justice" (fwd)
Dear Steven:
I am grateful for your kind words, and for your question.
"The Garden of Justice" was published in Athar-i Qalam-i A`la, vol. 4,
pp. 299-319 (1968 edn).
The passage about which you asked occurs on p. 300:
Qul: Innahu la nisbata baynahu wa bayna khalqihi . . . wa innama
'n-nisbatu 'llati yunsabu bihi wa yudhkaru fi 'l-alwahi, innaha zaharat
min iradatin allati bu`ithat min mashiyyatin allati khuliqat bi amri:
'l-mubrami.
So, the order here is
God--Amr/Decree--Mashiyyah/Volition--Iradah/Will--relationship to
creatures. This is a Shaykhi idea, that creatures do not have a direct
relationship to God, but only via His active attributes.
I don't think these terms or their relationships can be scholastically
codified in the Writings--they appear in a symbolic and ad hoc manner.
cheers Juan Cole, History, Univ. of Michigan
On Sun, 3 Mar 1996 PHELPS@PUPGG.PRINCETON.EDU wrote:
>
> Dear Juan,
>
> Thank you for your wonderful gift for the fast! I look forward
> to studying it. Could you tell us if/where this Tablet has been
> published? I wanted to check the original words for "Will",
> "Volition", and "decree". Are these the same Mashiyyat, Iradih,
> and Qadar which constitute the first three of the seven stages of
> contingency which appear in excerpts from Tablets published in
> Amr va Khalq vol 1? If so, it is an interesting reversal of the
> usual orderding.
>
> "The relationship that binds, which is mentioned in the Tablets,
> only appeared from His Will, which was sent forth from His
> Volition, and which in turn was generated by My all-encompassing
> and irrevocable decree."
>
> happy Fast to everybody,
> steven
>
=END=
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 13:45:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: Cu Chulain
Cc: Talisman
Subject: Re: Garden Of Justice
Simon: Good question!
I myself suspect that the phrase about judging (yahkumu `ala anfusihim wa
anfusi 'l-`ibadi) refers to the situation of the Babis and Baha'is in
1867, when it was absolutely necessary for each individual believer to
decide between Baha'u'llah and Azal. Baha'u'llah puts forward as the
criterion for this judgment, *Justice*, and goes on to explain what he
means by it and what its implications are for the choice at hand. So,
although it is true that Baha'is are to exercise a sin-covering eye with
regard to their behavior toward others, it is also true that we sometimes
reach forks in the road when we have to make judgments for ourselves
about others.
cheers Juan Cole, History, Univ. of Michigan
On Sun, 3 Mar 1996, Cu Chulain wrote:
> I would like to ask about the opening paragraph. It says
> "Thereby might all preserve pure justice and judge themselves and others."
> This seems to me to indicate a judgemental approach to others, where in
> actual fact I interpret the tone of other relevant passages in the
> Writings of Baha'u'llah to be one of support for the policy of 'removing
> the plank' in ones own eye before complaining about the sand in anothers.
> Is there another interpretation which the original text imply, or
> perhaps an alternative syntax?
>
> Baha'i greetings
>
> Simon Mawhinney
>
=END=
[end of 3/3/96 session]
Talisman emails received 3/4/96 (session log ends prematurely
due to hard drive crash)
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 96 15:59 PST
To: Mike Somerby <102464.2703@compuserve.com>
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Joining Talisman
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
>What do I need to do to join Talisman?
>
>-- Mike
>
Dear Mike:
Contrary to what you may hear from our esteemed list owner, what you
*really* need to do to join Talisman is as follows:
1. Genuflect to photos of Sherman the Bosch Baha'i School Cat
2. Buy MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer
3. Agree with Prof. Juan Cole 85% of the time
4. be able to say "neo-platonist" five times in two paragraphs.
5. Ultimately agree with Bruce that there is no absolute anything.
6. Make a song out of these three words: Docetic, Irenic, Pathetic.
7. Accuse us all of being (a) fascists, (b) liberals (c) social democrats
and/or (d) potential benders of the Covenant.
8. Be beaten by Quakers and vilified by mimes.
9. Have a marked propensity for procrastination and sloth, accompanied by
a healthy fear of Ninjas, economic sanctions, and conspicuous reserve.
10. You only buy things to support salespeople's families -- shopping is,
for you, an act of economic sacrifice for the good of society.
I think that covers the basics, but other folks here might have differenct
ideas...not better ideas, just different.
Dr. Burl
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer (ISBN# 1-56901-815-4)
May be ordered by any real bookstore. Accept no excuses. It is still only
$19.95 suggested retail. Order it!
********************************************************
=END=
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 19:04:50 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Watsonville Teaching Project Latest News1
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismanians
Yesterday there was three more new believers in Watsonville.Also last
night in Salinas CA another enrolement, this ensures the Salinas LSA
will reform this Ridvan.
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
From: The Hendershots
To: "'Talisman'"
Subject: Hello and Mysticism Conference
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 17:36:19 -0800
Hi. I'm Chris Hendershot from southern California. I attended the =
mysticism conference at Bosch and subscribed to Talisman as soon as I =
got home. I'm not academically oriented--I'm just a secretary from =
Manhattan Beach (unfortunately not a singing one). I have enjoyed the =
postings on Talisman this week, especially the responses to the =
conference. (However, it's pretty time-consuming and I don't know how =
long I can keep it up.... My husband has already suggested there be a =
"Talisman-free day" each week.) =20
I thought the mysticism conference was very special. Terry's =
presentation interested me very much and I look forward to some day =
seeing it in print. I have relistened to it on tape (with great =
difficulty, since my recorder is very tiny) and got much more out of it =
on the second listening. =20
The chants with LuAnne, the devotional program by the Omaha Baha'is, and =
Teresa's meditative walk through the snow-covered grounds of Bosch were =
definitely the high points of the weekend for me. The chants and songs =
have been running through my mind all week.
Unfortunately, I wasn't able to sit through what should have been the =
most important part of the conference, namely the consultation on what =
we could bring back to our own communities. I have gotten much more =
out of reading the comments so far on Talisman than I did out of the =
half of that meeting I made it through. =20
Anyway, I think the conference will have a positive effect on a lot of =
Baha'is and their communities. Everyone wants to hear about the =
conference! Everyone agrees that the American community has long =
focused most of its energies on the administrative aspects of the Faith =
and all but ignored our spiritual needs. Everyone knows we're not going =
to bring in the masses by offering them membership on Baha'i committees. =
Our community discussed this at Feast and made suggestions to the =
assembly on holding regular worship meetings and on better ways to stay =
in contact with our seekers.
The conference was great. And I'm sure many good things will come out =
of it.
With loving Baha'i greetings,
Chris
=END=
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 96 20:09 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: You Asked for It
Goaded by Uncle Derek, I am compelled to tell the strange story of Linda
Walbridge, Margreet Gipson, and Ericka Batdorf's Airborn Maiden Conspiracy
at Bosch. It was my wish to conceal these misdeeds, but apparently there is
a lesson to be learned from all this.
T'was late, late, Saturday night (actually, more in the wee hours of Sunday
morning) when the balmy Northern California weather had degenerated to a few
degrees colder than a certain infamous dungeon in Tehran that Mighty Margee,
Linda-Ninja, and Breather Batdorf choreographed a mystical practical joke
on Former Mystic Culhane with the full participation of Tony, Richard
(that's not my hat, that's my hair) Logan, and TAFKAC (The Artist Formerly
Known As Carry). Poor Terry was sound asleep in the treehouse, shivering
away as he is wont to do on such occasions, when the demonatrie triumverant
snuck up under him. Linda-Ninja was fully outfitted with a body harness to
which Ericka and Margee had attached an exceptionally strong piano wire
lifted surreptitiously from the Martha Root Steinway Grand. The wire was
deftly slung over a branch far above Culhane and then daisy coiled by Margee
into a hefty knot which was covered with duct tape. Margee and Batdorf then
pulled on the wire until Linda began to rise into the air. Before becoming
airborne, Linda-Ninja was subjected to a complete cosmetic makeover courtesy
of Max Factor, Revlon, and Tafkac. Her face shimmered with luminescent
sparkles, her body covered in more rhinestones than the total supply
warehoused in the combined dressing rooms of George Jones and Conway Twitty,
Linda-Ninja appeared absolutely (sorry, Bruce) seraphic, not to mention
docetic (thanks, Juan). Once the radiant feminine was set spinning above
the snoring head of Mystic Culhane, Tony and Richard shone their bright
Bosch flashlights in Culhane's face and began chanting "AUM AUM" which awoke
him immediately. How stunned indeed was Culhane to see this glimmering
maiden suspended between treehouse and heaven, dripping rhinestones and
mascara, pointing at him and proclaiming in an Indiana accent: "TAG! YOU'RE IT!"
Culhane, convinced he was actually having a true mystical experience, fell
out of the treehouse and landed on Breather Batdorf knocking the air out of
her. OOOF! Said Batdorf. As Ericka was no longer empowered, she let go of
the wire and as Margee, despite being a body builder, could no longer hold
the rhinestone drenched Linda aloft on her own, the celestial Ninja crashed
through the floorboards of the treehouse to land with a glimmering
impressive thud atop Margee who tumbled in turn atop the gasping Batdorf who
was herself pinned by the now hysterical Very Former Mystic Culhane who,
thinking that photos of this would earn him a stern reprimand from all
manner of administrative bodies, was reduced to babbling "Omaha was never
like this, Omaha was never like this" as Tony Lee hastily acquired the
publishing rights.
The most amazing aspect of all this is that just as this episode seemed
beyond chaos, Luann (sensing something spiritual was happening) began
leaping through the woods banging that giant tambourine and singing "Get
Charley off the MTA" because that was the only Kingston Trio song whose
lyrics she could recall at the moment. As MTA is the Metropolitan Transit
Authority of Boston, Mass. (Home of Breather Batdorf) Ericka was immediately
revived and, thinking she was back home, began doing her daily calisthenics.
It was confusion ladled atop cacophony, costumes, and hysterics. The
formerly psuedo-docetic Maiden whimpered pathetically on her hands and knees
drenched in mud and shimmering in wet rhinestones. Seeing all this was dear
revered Amin Banani who had felt inspired to recite a particular Tablet
under the moonlight. Finishing his devotions, he turned his attention to
this most bizarre of sights in Bosch history. Bemused, but not the least
distressed, he returned to his cabin only pausing long enough to remark to
the stoic and silent Richard Logan and Tafkac, "you know, if the friends
would realize the wonderful mystic opportunities found in the concentration
of attention to the physical movements and accompanying words of our
Obligatory Prayers, they perhaps would not feel the need to invent such
elaborate midnight rituals such as these. But," concluded Mr. Banani, "I see
no harm in it....except perhaps for the piano wire."
Burl
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer (ISBN# 1-56901-815-4)
May be ordered by any real bookstore. Accept no excuses. It is still only
$19.95 suggested retail. Order it!
********************************************************
=END=
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 23:31:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
Cc: Cu Chulain ,
Talisman
Subject: Re: Garden Of Justice
Brent: The word I have translated as "justice" throughout this Tablet is
"al-`adl" in Arabic, and it is part of the title as well as constituting
the major theme, being repeated over and over again. It is the same word
as in "House of Justice," but it seems to me unlikely that Baha'u'llah
had as yet ordained the latter institution.
cheers Juan Cole, History, Univ. of Michigan
=END=
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 21:19:44 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Juan R Cole
Cc: Cu Chulain ,
Talisman
Subject: Re: Garden Of Justice
On Sun, 3 Mar 1996, Juan R Cole wrote:
> I myself suspect that the phrase about judging (yahkumu `ala anfusihim wa
> anfusi 'l-`ibadi) refers to the situation of the Babis and Baha'is in
> 1867, when it was absolutely necessary for each individual believer to
> decide between Baha'u'llah and Azal. Baha'u'llah puts forward as the
> criterion for this judgment, *Justice*, and goes on to explain what he
> means by it and what its implications are for the choice at hand.
I believe that in the second Arabic Hidden Word, "the best beloved of all
things in My sight is Justice," the original Arabic for justice is
"insaf." In a letter to Glenn Shook published in Baha'i News in the
1950's, the Guardian wrote that "insaf" should be thought of as
fairness. So I primarily understand the second hidden word to be
speaking of fairmindedness, the quality that enables one to evaluate and
accept the Manifestation, as well as grow spiritually in other senses. I
understand that adl is the arabic term for justice as in "House of
Justice." So, where does this fit in in the present discussion?
Brent
=END=
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 20:52:33 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Re: Joining Talisman
To: talisman@indiana.edu
My dear Burl
You forgot the weekly check to our Holiday in Patagonia Fund.Any sum
over three figures not including the decimal pointie over $100.00 is
acceptable.
Your best Friend
Derek
>What do I need to do to join Talisman?
>
>-- Mike
>
Dear Mike:
Contrary to what you may hear from our esteemed list owner, what you
*really* need to do to join Talisman is as follows:
1. Genuflect to photos of Sherman the Bosch Baha'i School Cat
2. Buy MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer
3. Agree with Prof. Juan Cole 85% of the time
4. be able to say "neo-platonist" five times in two paragraphs.
5. Ultimately agree with Bruce that there is no absolute anything.
6. Make a song out of these three words: Docetic, Irenic, Pathetic.
7. Accuse us all of being (a) fascists, (b) liberals (c) social
democrats
and/or (d) potential benders of the Covenant.
8. Be beaten by Quakers and vilified by mimes.
9. Have a marked propensity for procrastination and sloth,
accompanied by
a healthy fear of Ninjas, economic sanctions, and conspicuous reserve.
10. You only buy things to support salespeople's families -- shopping
is,
for you, an act of economic sacrifice for the good of society.
I think that covers the basics, but other folks here might have
differenct
ideas...not better ideas, just different.
Dr. Burl
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer (ISBN# 1-56901-815-4)
May be ordered by any real bookstore. Accept no excuses. It is still
only
$19.95 suggested retail. Order it!
********************************************************
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 17:15:59 PST8PDT
Subject: Re: Fasting - travel exemptions, bending the rules?
Hi,
re:
> Date sent: Sun, 3 Mar 1996 09:46:42 -0500 (EST)
> From: jwalbrid
> To: Talisman@indiana.edu
> Subject: Fasting
> The following is something that I have written on fasting. I hope it
> will be useful, instructive, and/or entertaining.
>
> john walbridge
>
> *******
>
> Fasting
>
...snip
> The following individuals are exempted from fasting:
>
> Travellers, providing their journey is to last at least nine hours or two
> hours on foot.
...
SERIOUS (really):
Does "two hours on foot" apply to cross country skiing or hiking
for recreational purposes? The best ski mountaineering in the
Sierra Nevada (California) is usually in March, and I have
always assumed that mountaineering is a type of "foot travel", so
I don't have to miss any opportunities if I can have a little
water and snacks for energy.
If someone wanted to have a semi-clear conscience about not
fasting, could they just make sure that they walked a total of
two accumulated hours per day?
Any feedback is appreciated.
EP
ps, RobertJ@NZ: I usually hate it too, although before getting
married and having a 2 year old, it was almost bearable.
=END=
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 09:22:58 -0500 (EST)
From: lwalbrid
To: talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: not my fault
Marguerite hit the nail on the head - no, not at Bosch, figuratively
speaking. It really is not all my fault. I am a victim of my own
personal history - nuns telling me not to wear patent leather shoes,
professors trying to make a statistician out of me, Baha'is questioning
if it is the height of wisdom for me to focus my research on Arab
Shi'ites. The list goes on and on. As for the Langnesses silverware, I
am completely innocent. Odious (the real name of Big Dog Odie) eats the
tableware for snacks. I tried to tell them, but they became so
suspicious of me because of all the stories they had heard from Derek and
Burl, that there was no convincing them that I was not the culprit.
To those of you who are new on Talisman and have not met me, I would like
to say in my defense that I am not a rhinestone Amazon - just a very
sweet, good-natured person with a healthy crusading spirit. (I did just
get a sorority closed down here at the university, I am happy to
announce because of a hazing incident. All in a day's work for this
angel of mercy.)
However, I doubt that, with the latest round of postings from Derek and
Burl, that anyone just signing up on Talisman expecting to find high
level scholarship will last more than a day. So, I suppose I don't have to
worry.
Love, Linda
=END=
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 08:25:39 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: You Asked for It
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Burl Barer" , "Talisman"
> Richard
>(that's not my hat, that's my hair) Logan,
Dear Burl I believe you got that qoute wrong--I think it was-- "that's
not a hat that's my wife!"
PS. I should have bought your book but I was afraid of so much insight.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePage "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 96 11:48:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Azal
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Lately, I've been deepening on one of the larger Works of the Bab,
namely, Kitab-i Panj Sha`n (Five Qualifications) which is among His
last Writings and I'm struck by the tone and language used to
address Yahya Azal and the clear predictions it contains that Him
whom God will make Manifest will appear shortly (i.e. during Azal's
days) and that Azal will fail to recognize Him. In addition, the
Bab in instructing Azal of some of the most basic aspects of
ontology and beliefs, employs a tone suitable for instructing a
wayward person and not someone who is suppose to assume the
leadership of the community after the Bab. So, if nothing else,
this Work is clear documentation that the Bab never had in mind for
Yahya Azal to put forth outrageous claims that he did.
I know that E. G. Browne had a copy of this Work and its a mystery
to me why he failed to see from these passages that not only Azal
was not held very highly in the eyes of the Bab, but in fact was
assured to be one who will cause harm to Him whom God will make
manifest.
Further, I'm a bit puzzled as to why these passages where not used
by Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha to support their arguments against
Azalis and can only assume that They did not wish to shame Yahya
Azal any more than the shame that he had brought upon himself.
The copy of Panj Sha`n that I'm using is in fact an Azali
publication. It has no date or place of publication but I suspect
it was calligraphed in Qazvin and printed in Tihran. Its in a
beautiful script, very readable and stands a total of 447 pages of
Text, contains 3 pages of Table of Contents and some 14 pages of
notes at the end. These notes are very interesting and contain such
info as to the date of Revelation of this Work (commenced on the
first day of Naw-Ruz of 1850 and lasted for 17 days) and some other
useful data. The Table of Contents has also much useful info such
as the identify of the recipient of each section and that's how I
know the section beginning on page 125 is addressed to Yahya Azal.
This section (pages 125-137) is in two parts, the first half Arabic
and the second half in Persian.
I have not translated the Text as regrettably I'm thoroughly
unqualified to undertake such a task, but have taken some notes
which are shared herewith. My comments are in square bracket, [].
This section starts:
In the name of God, the Living, the Alive.
[The original is: "Bismi'llah al-ahayal al-ahayal" and is a play
on the name of Yahya Azal as numerically Azal is equivalent to 38,
the same as Yahya, and the latter means the living.]
Praise be God, there is no God by Him, the Living and the Alive.
From eternity and for ever, the glory emanated from God by upon Him
whom God will manifest and believers (promoters) of His Cause.
Be thee (Yahya Azal) witness that God is sanctified perpetually
above His creation and supreme over imaginal world. And He is
holier than all that created or will be created. He has not created
people, except for His recognition and that He is unneedy of them
and their worship. And His recognition may not be achieved except
through His love and worship may be be possible except through
obedience.
[Obviously, this passage is the reformulation of Hadith-i Qudsi "I
was a hidden treasure wished to be known, therefore, created man to
know Me and love Me." Its also the same sentiments articulated in
the opening paragraph of the Kitab-i Aqdas about twin, inseparable,
duties of recognition and obedience.]
So, recognize God, thy Creator, the most Glorious, and achieve this
through the recognition of Him whom God will manifest, mighty are
His blessings. Serve God, thy Lord, through servitude to Him whom
God will manifest, long be His aid. As the path of the essence of
Eternal (azal) is closed and the way to the hidden eternity is
forbidden otherwise.
[This is the key Baha'i doctrine too, namely, recognition of God and
His Names is not possible except through His Prophets.]
When thee understand this, then realize that God, exalted be His
sanctity, will identify Himself to His creation through the
manifestation of His own Self. Therefore, all the nations have
recognized God, their Lord, naught but through recognition of their
Prophets. And those endowed with understanding will perceive this.
[Up through here was page 125.]
[A long section follows explaining that the Essence of God is beyond
comprehension of all except through His attributes manifested in the
Eternal Point (nuqtih-i azaliyyih, ie. the Bab) of the Dispensation
of Bayan. He goes on to say such things as: Whoever worships the
Manifestation of God, has worshipped God; whoever serves Him, has
served God; whoever praises Him, has praised God, ...]
[Bottom of page 127:]
When thee (Azal) has understood these, then firstly grasp the proofs
and when comprehended that, and turn with certainty to the Throne of
Appearance at the time of Manifestation and fear not anything. As
this is the path of God, in past and future and the way of the
Manifestation of God among all nations.
[middle of page 128:]
And in the Days of Him whom God will manifest, whenever He chooses
to appear, on that Day this Word [ie. the Manifestation] will not be
recognized except through believing in Him and do not look upon the
Witnesses of Bayan.
[Its very instructive that the Bab explains that Witnesses of Bayan,
which included Yahya Azal, should *not* be used as guides for
discovering Him whom God will manifest.]
Because their blessings [ie. station] was due to believing in the
Primal Point, and similarly for the faithful (teachers) of Him whom
God will manifest and believing in Him. And nothing else is worthy,
both in the past and the future.
Strive to acquire higher qualifications. Perhaps thee will be
enabled to render assistance to God in thy essence. And acquire
spiritual qualities and radiate rays of the pure ones, so that,
perchance, in the Day of Resurrection [here refers to appearance of
Him whom God will manifest], if thee will not make God, thy Lord,
happy, at least thee will not make Him sad.
[This is an amazing prophecy by the Bab where He predicts that Azal
will cause sadness for Baha'u'llah. In this last sentence, God and
Lord are references to Baha'u'llah. First time that I read this
passage that Azal should not cause anything to bring grief to
man-yazharu'llah, immediately the passage from Abdu'l-Baha's Will
and Testament came to mind where He enjoins upon us not to cause the
dust of despondency to be shed upon Shoghi Effendi.]
[A section follows explaining that for ordinary people, sadness and
happiness are two distinct states but before Him whom God will
manifest they are the one and the same as are all the other
conditions. Namely, He is above such human feelings and
limitations.]
[middle of page 130, line 7:]
It will please God, to exalt the station of this Word [ie. the Bab],
for exaltation of His own Self in the Day of Him whom God will
manifest. Be watchful from this day, lest God, thy Creator and His
believers (teachers of the Cause) will appear and thee [ie. Yahya
Azal] be among those unaware. Because now (soon) is, of course, the
time of coming of Him whom God will manifest along with His
followers. Recognize Him and His believers, if thee believe in the
Primal Point and His believers. Therefore, thy faith in the Bayan,
at the Day of His Manifestation, is believing in Him and nothing
else.
[This paragraph is most emphatic! In a very clear language the Bab
instructs Azal to turn to Him whom God will make manifest which any
day will occur. Then tells him that his belief in the Bab is
contingent upon belief in Baha'u'llah.]
[Then, the Bab delivers this final punch on page 131:]
The Throne of the Truth became manifest and thee [ie. Yahya Azal]
failed to recognize Him and all things created through Him.
regards, ahang.
=END=
Subject: Why is the Buddha fat?
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 11:05:32 -0500 (EST)
From: "Donald Zhang Osborn"
Allah'u'Abha! Thought the attached discussion of portrayals of the Buddha
(including some mention of Maitreya) might be an interesting diversion, at
least for those occupied with the thread on Buddhism. The opening question
is one many of us may have wanted to ask at one time or another...
DZO osborndo@pilot.msu.edu
__________________________________________________________________________
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 1996 09:33:19 EST
Sender: Chinese Studies list
Subject: Buddha
To: Multiple recipients of list CHINA
I have been asked why the Buddha is portrayed, in later sculpture at least,
as fat. Can anyone tell me?
xxxxxxx xxxxxxx
Foreign Languages
Southern Illinois University
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 1996 22:00:47 EST
Sender: Chinese Studies list
Subject: Re: Buddha
To: Multiple recipients of list CHINA
Hello,
> I have been asked why the Buddha is portrayed, in later sculpture at least,
> as fat. Can anyone tell me?
Well, this is the chinese-style buddha, which is very fat and
laughing.
You have the thai-style much more slim with a cone-shaped hat,
the indian-style which you probably also saw.
I'm not an expert, just a few things I know..
Best regards
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
_\\|//-
( 0-0 )
-------------------o00--(_)--00o------------------
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 21:51:43 EST
Sender: Chinese Studies list
Subject: Re: Buddha
To: Multiple recipients of list CHINA
>Well, this is the chinese-style buddha, which is very fat and
>laughing.
The Buddah sculptures in many Chinese temples also are not fat. The fat
Buddah status is only one of the styles: so called laughing Buddha.
xxxxxxxx xxxx
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 21:59:25 EST
Sender: Chinese Studies list
Subject: Re: Buddha
To: Multiple recipients of list CHINA
The fat Buddha that we see depicted is the Maitreya Buddha - the Buddha
of the future. This much I can tell you. I am not an expert in Art
History though, so I'm not quite sure why the Maitreya Buddha is so
often depicted in Art.
xxxxxx xxxxxxx
George Washington University
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 22:05:16 EST
Sender: Chinese Studies list
Subject: Re: Buddha
To: Multiple recipients of list CHINA
>I have been asked why the Buddha is portrayed, in later sculpture at least,
>as fat. Can anyone tell me?
My understanding (subject to correction by Buddhologists) is that the figure
you're referring to is not the Buddha. It's Pu-tai (Budai), or Hotei in
Japanese, a popular figure in Ch'an Buddhism, based on a 10th century monk,
considered a bodhisattva and an incarnation of Maitreya (the future Buddha).
He became sort of a Santa Claus type of figure in the popular imagination,
going around with a sack giving away things. He exemplifies the "ordinariness"
of the bodhisattva in Ch'an, like the figure portrayed in the last of the Ten
Oxherding Pictures ("Entering the marketplace with a helping hand").
Technically, I suppose, he's a Buddha (since in Ch'an we all are), but he's not
Sakyamuni. In Japan he became one of the 7 gods of good luck in Shinto/folk
religion.
xxxxxx xxxxx
Kenyon College
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 22:43:16 EST
Sender: Chinese Studies list
Subject: Re: Buddha
To: Multiple recipients of list CHINA
On Maitreya again...K.K.S. Ch'en cites two articles in the bibliography of
his Buddhism in China. These are: Suzuki, Eastern Buddhist 6.4 (1935);
and Helen Chapin, JAOS 53.1. Ch'en himself, if I'm not mistaken, has a
section on Maitreya in his earlier book (The Transformation of Buddhism
or something or other). Both the articles are very old, but at least
it's a start. Probably the best brief doxological account in English is
in Williams, Mahayana Buddhism, 228ff., with a few references, but not
all that much on iconography.
xxxx xxxxxx xxxxxx
Harvard University
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 22:44:09 EST
Sender: Chinese Studies list
Subject: Re: Buddha
To: Multiple recipients of list CHINA
> The Buddah sculptures in many Chinese temples also are not fat. The fat
> Buddah status is only one of the styles: so called laughing Buddha.
One of the more amazing things about the Dunhuang caves is that you can
follow the development of different representations through from the
Northern Wei on. Like the shorter and more recent history of, say, Santa
Claus, in the West, it took a while for these images to become
standardized iconographic images, and variations persist. (For that
matter, how come Santa Claus is conventionally portrayed as fat?)
A lot of the later Buddha images are pudgy, which I'd guess simply
reflected a different physical ideal in a society where extra pounds
could be an expression of wealth and status and starvation was a real
threat.
xxxxxx xxxxx
International Strategic Advisors Ltd.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Date: Sat, 2 Mar 1996 22:45:11 EST
Sender: Chinese Studies list
Subject: Re: Buddha
To: Multiple recipients of list CHINA
Hi,
Yes, the very fat Buddha is the Chinese version of Maitreya (often, also
with children around him, as a giver of children), but you're right, many
Chinese Buddhas (and Guan Yins) are, at least, pudgy. I was told that
this was a sign of fortune and that in a lot of traditional Chinese art,
people are portrayed as what we woud call fat to show that they were
prosperous and fortunate (based on having enough to eat). Apparently this
is an iconographic convention (like long ears being a sign of wisdom).
The odd looking topnots on the Buddha's head are the convention
for curly hair---though a Chinese friend in Taiwan said that it's simply
what happened to the Buddha when he sat under the Bodhi tree for so
long--the tree being full of birds ;-)
Cheers!
xxx xxxxxx
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
=END=
From: "Lora McCall"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 10:03:40 -0600
Subject: feminine & masculine
Dear Talismanians,
Don Calkins remarked that feminine & masculine are polar opposites,
but I wonder if anything in the world is truly this way. Female and
male are not opposites. That would mean that each cancels out the
other or that we are very far apart by definition -- as in, opposite
ends of the spectrum. But even on the color spectrum, no one says
that blue and red are opposites. Female and male are simply
variations (necessary ones, I might add) within the species. We are
the same, yet we are different. It's not about contrary positions
being balanced, it's about all the names and attributes of God being
reflected harmoniously, and every name given validation and
permission to be expressed. It's more like a multi-dimensional
weaving process.
As for too much feminization causing stagnation on institutions, the
Omaha LSA is comprised of 4 men and 5 women, but there are almost
never more than two men in attendance at each meeting because of work
schedules and family obligations. So each meeting the demographics
are 2 men, 5 women -- and we are managing to get a few things
accomplished.
Love, Lora
=END=
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 09:10:11 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: carmen@ucla.edu (Carmen Mathenge)
Subject: Re: Joining Talisman
>>What do I need to do to join Talisman?
>>
>>-- Mike
>>
Dear Mike, and Chris and Jon,
Welcome to Talisman! The major requirement for joining is to run out as
quickly as possible and buy an unabridged dictionary so you can look up
things like hermaneutics and eisegesis and not have to rely on Burl's daffy
definitions.
WARNING: If you think you can be on Talisman and have a life, forget it.
If, after three or four days, you still have any interest in the latter,
unsubscribe as quickly as possible! And don't touch the computer until
withdrawal symptoms have disappeared.
A Talisman-free day? That's like asking me to go without coffee.
With loving Baha'i greetings,
Carmen
=END=
Date: Sun, 03 Mar 96 16:13:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Azal - 2
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Sorry guys I left a couple of key verses off the end of last
posting.
The Bab further notes:
Do not wonder of the Cause of God. Perhaps the Cause of God will
appear and thee (ie. Yahya Azal) remain unaware and be veiled of
the Throne of Manifestation.
[OK, with that Azal's goose if fully cooked.]
ahang.
=END=
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 12:04:50 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: frlw@midway.uchicago.edu, Masumian@mail.uchicago.edu
Subject: Reuters 3/2-3/96 (fwd)
> 'IRAN' STORIES
>Transmission date: 96/03/03
> 1. 16:07 IRANIAN OFFICIALS ARRESTED FOR ELECTION VIOLATIONS
> 2. 13:48 AFGHAN PRESIDENT VISITS IRAN
> 3. 12:00 AFGHAN PRESIDENT GOES TO IRAN, REBELS ROCKET KABUL
> 4. 10:23 IRANIAN, AZERI MINISTERS CLASH OVER ARMENIA, ISRAEL
> 5. 10:16 WEST, MODERATE ARABS CONDEMN JERUSALEM BOMBING
> 6. 09:55 BOSNIAN MOSLEMS WILL NOT FORGET IRAN AID -PREMIER
> 7. 08:06 BOSNIAN PREMIER VISITS IRAN TO DISCUSS TIES
> 8. 05:57 VOICE OF AYATOLLAH KHOMEINI URGES IRANIANS TO VOTE
> 9. 04:34 LIBERAL OPPOSITION GROUP WITHDRAWS FROM IRAN ELECTION
> 10. 00:57 BOSNIA SENDING SOLDIERS TO IRAN FOR TRAINING - PAPER
>
>=START= XMT: 16:07 Sun Mar 03 EXP: 6 :00 Wed Mar 06
>
>
> Iranian officials arrested for election violations
> TEHRAN, March 3 (Reuter) - A number of Iranian officials have been arrested
>for using government facilities to support candidates in next Friday's
>parliamentary elections, officials announced.
> Complaints about election abuses have appeared in Iranian newspapers since
>campaigning began on Thursday but Sunday's announcement, quoted on Tehran
>radio, was the first report by the committee of the clergy-based Guardian
>Council which supervises the vote.
> ``Certain officials...have committed violations in misusing public
>facilities in the election campaign in favor of some candidates,'' it said.
>``The arrested violators have confessed.''
> The report did not say how many officials were arrested, what posts they
>held, or how they broke the rules of official impartiality.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 13:48 Sun Mar 03 EXP: 3 :00 Wed Mar 06
>
>
> Afghan president visits Iran
> NICOSIA, March 3 (Reuter) - Afghan President Burhanuddin Rabbani arrived in
>Tehran on Sunday to discuss efforts to end the war in Afghanistan, the Iranian
>news agency IRNA reported.
> It said Rabbani, who will stay in Iran for three day, was welcomed at the
>airport by Iranian President Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani.
> ``The aim of his visit is to discuss the strengthening of bilateral ties,
>the efforts to end the current crisis in Afghanistan, the regional and
>international situation, and expansion of economic cooperation,'' IRNA said.
> Iran is one of several regional countries trying to get Afghan factions,
>which have been fighting each other since they toppled Kabul's Soviet-installed
>government in 1992, to make peace.
> On Saturday the Turkmen Foreign Ministry said Rabbani would visit
>Turkmenistan on March 5-6 and hold talks with President Saparmurat Niyazov.
> Rabbani last visited Iran in March 1995.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 12:00 Sun Mar 03 EXP: 2 :00 Wed Mar 06
>
>
> Afghan president goes to Iran, rebels rocket Kabul
> ISLAMABAD, March 3 (Reuter) - Afghanistan's embattled President Burhanuddin
>Rabbani left on a visit to neighbouring Iran on Sunday while his opponents kept
>up rocket fire on the besieged capital Kabul, the state Kabul Radio reported.
> The broadcast, monitored in Islamabad, said Rabbani would discuss
>political, economic and social matters during the visit at the invitation of
>Iranian President Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani.
> The trip is Rabbani's second to Iran since taking power four years ago and
>follows recent Iranian efforts to help end factional fighting in Afghanistan
>and mediate in the soured relations between Kabul and Islamabad.
> It did not say how long the visit would last.
> Rabbani is also due to visit the Central Asian republic of Turkmenistan on
>March 5-6.
> The opposition Taleban militia fired rockets at residential areas in Kabul
>for the second day running, Kabul Radio said. At least one civilian was
>wounded.
> Four people were killed and 11 wounded by the Taleban rocketing on
>Saturday, an earlier radio report said.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 10:23 Sun Mar 03 EXP: 0 :00 Wed Mar 06
>
>
> Iranian, Azeri ministers clash over Armenia, Israel
> BAKU, March 3 (Reuter) - The foreign ministers of Iran and Azerbaijan
>clashed publicly on Sunday, each charging the other with choosing the wrong
>friends.
> Visiting Iranian Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Velayati, speaking at a news
>conference in the Azeri capital, told his host, Foreign Minister Gasan Gasanov,
>that Azerbaijan was moving too close to Israel.
> ``Israel wants to conquer the Caucasus, the Middle East and the Gulf,''
>Velayati said through an interpreter.
> ``Yesterdy we expressed our concern to President (Haydar) Aliyev over
>Israel effectively moving to the very borders of Iran...Israel is an enemy of
>Islamic states.''
> Gasanov, clearly angry, retorted:
> ``Then I will also tell you about the concern expressed by our side,'' he
>said. ``We said that Armenia has fully broken the (Azeri-imposed) economic
>blockade. It is resolving all its transport problems through Iranian
>territory.''
> Both ministers, rejecting each other's charges, cut short the news
>conference and said they were going to meet Aliyev, though such an encounter
>had not been previously scheduled.
> Azerbaijan and Armenia have been locked in a bloody conflict over
>Nagorno-Karabakh, an Armenian populated enclave of Azerbaijan which first tried
>to break away from Baku in 1989.
> Large-scale fighting stopped nearly two years ago but there is no sign of a
>lasting peace and the Karabakh Armenians still hold large parts of Azerbaijan
>proper.
> Armenia, whose historic foe is Turkey, cultivates good relations with Iran.
>It has set up some transport routes though Iran to weaken the impact of the
>Azeri economic blockade.
> Velayati said Iran has always backed Azerbaijan in the conflict and added
>that, despite the blockade, Azeri fuel was sold in Armenia.
> Israel has expressed interest in Azerbaijan and its energy resources while
>Baku, facing an effective military defeat at the hands of the Karabakh troops
>backed by Yerevan, appears ready to welcome any new international friend.
> Earlier this week, Velayati toured the former Soviet republics of Central
>Asia and Kazakhstan. He arrived in the Georgian capital on Sunday afternoon and
>is also expected to visit Kiev and Moscow next week.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 10:16 Sun Mar 03 EXP: 0 :00 Wed Mar 06
>
>
> West, moderate Arabs condemn Jerusalem bombing
> JERUSALEM, March 3 (Reuter) - Israel's friends in the West and in the Arab
>world condemned Sunday's suicide bombing of a bus in Jerusalem which killed 19
>people, but radical Palestinians and Iran said the attack underlined the power
>of opponents of the U.S.-backed peace process.
> ``The United States condemns this grotesque and uncivilised act of
>terrorism,'' U.S. Secretary of State Warren Christopher said in Sao Paulo of
>the bombing claimed by the Islamic Hamas movement.
> ``They simply must not be allowed to succeed. They must be discredited,
>isolated and defeated,'' Christopher said of Hamas and other Palestinian groups
>trying to derail the peace process he has tried hard to push forward.
> Palestinian President Yasser Arafat acted swiftly to meet Israeli demands
>for tough security measures, outlawing the military wings of the Hamas and
>Islamic Jihad organisations in the self-rule areas of the West Bank and Gaza
>Strip.
> Israeli Prime Minister Shimon Peres told reporters after a cabinet meeting
>that Israel was ``in an all-out war with Hamas and other terrorist groups.''
> But he side-stepped a question on whether peace talks with the PLO,
>suspended after two Hamas suicide bombings which killed 26 people a week ago,
>would be halted.
> Egypt, the first Arab country to make peace with Israel, urged the Jewish
[B>state not to allow the violence to block the peace process with
Palestinians.
> ``Stopping negotiations...would be giving in to the conspiracies and tricks
>which aim to stop the peace process,'' Foreign Minister Amr Moussa said in a
>statement in Cairo.
> But Iran, accused by Israel and the United States of funding the suicide
>bombers, said the bombings proved the power of Islamist Palestinian groups and
>showed Israel had failed in achieving its goals in making peace with Arafat.
> ``The intensification of the operations by anti-Zionist Palestinian groups
>and efforts by the Zionist regime to offset them have destabilised the process
>of collusion,'' state-run Tehran Radio said in a commentary.
> In Damascus, radical Palestinian guerrilla groups vowed more attacks
>against Israel.
> ``The attacks will continue and neither Arafat nor Israel will be able to
>stop them,'' Fahd al-Qudsi, a spokesman for the Popular Front for the
>Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), said.
> A spokesman for the Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP)
>said: ``Israel's violation of U.N. resolutions and its disregard of the
>Palestinian peoples' rights and dignity will lead to more bombings.''
> Russia and several west European countries denounced the bombing as an act
>of terrorism.
> ``The path to peace is difficult but I know that terrorism and fanaticism
>will not have the power to deflect you from it,'' French President Jacques
>Chirac said in a message to Peres.
> In Moscow, a Foreign Ministry statement quoted by Interfax news agency said
>Russia condemned the ``irrational criminal act by extremists aiming to block
>the movement of the region towards peace and to return it to the abyss of
>misery and bloodshed.''
> German Foreign Minister Klaus Kinkel said in a statement: ``The terror
>attack targets not only Israel but also the forces on the Palestinian side who
>are ready for peace.''
> In London, a Foreign Office spokesman said: ``We deplore this outrageous
>and cowardly act. Senseless incidents like this can only serve to strengthen
>the will of those committed to the peace process.''
> The Dutch government said it was dismayed by the bombing.
> Pope John Paul condemned the bus bombing, saying there could be no
>justification for killing the innocent.
> Jordan's King Hussein, who made peace with Israel in 1994, branded the
>bombing ``a very flagrant provocation aimed at bringing about a serious
>retaliaton that would cause enormous damage to the peace process.''
> ``I am very, very deeply angry and utterly...disgusted by this cowardly and
>inhuman crime,'' the king told Israel's Channel Two television by telephone
>from Jordan.
> Libya's official news agency JANA termed the bombing a ``martyr's attack''
>and said: ``The brother leader of the Revolution (Muammar Gaddafi) had said in
>January 1995...that Palestine was a tomb for Jews and that a day will come when
>sand will be removed from this tomb and the Jews will be buried there.''
> In Lebanon, pro-Iranian Hizbollah said ``murder and gunpowder'' were the
>only language Israel understood.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 09:55 Sun Mar 03 EXP: 9 :00 Wed Mar 06
>
>
> Bosnian Moslems will not forget Iran aid -premier
> (Recasts with fresh quotes, Muratovic-Rafsanjani meeting)
> NICOSIA, March 3 (Reuter) - Bosnian Prime Minister Hasan Muratovic arrived
>in Tehran on Sunday and said his country would always remember Iranian aid
>during fighting with Bosnian Serbs, the Iranian news agency IRNA said.
> It reported that Muratovic ``said...the Iranian government and nation
>offered humanitarian assistance to Bosnia at a time when its Islamic identity
>had been jeopardized, stressing that the Bosnians will never forget the
>significance of such an assistance.''
> On arrival in Tehran, Muratovic told reporters that meetings were to be
>held in Sarajevo and in Pakistan's capital Islamabad to accelerate Bosnia's
>reconstruction following the Dayton peace accord. He did not say when the
>meetings would be held.
> He later met Iranian President Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani and expressed his
>country's hope that Iran and other Moslem states would contribute to the
>reconstruction effort ``as they were beside the oppressed Bosnian people in the
>course of their defence,'' IRNA said.
> Rafsanjani ``voiced Iran's readiness to participate in reconstruction
>projects,'' it added.
> Earlier on Sunday Iranian Vice-President Hassan Habibi said Tehran, which
>backed Bosnian Moslems in their three-and-a-half-year war against Bosnian
>Serbs, would expand its cooperation with the Bosnian government.
> ``Now that conditions have improved in Bosnia, Iran will continue its
>assistance to the Bosnian Moslems and will work to expand its cooperation,''
>IRNA quoted him as saying.
> The New York Times said on Sunday the Bosnian government was sending
>soldiers to Iran for infantry training in a bid to revamp its military.
> The Times, without quoting a source, said American officials had warned the
>Bosnians that if they did not remove ``several hundred'' foreign soldiers,
>mostly Iranians and other Islamic units, this could jeopardise any programmes
>for U.S. military assistance to Bosnia.
> Hundreds of Islamic fighters, including Iranians, fought on the side of
>their fellow-Bosnian Moslems against Bosnian Serbs before the Dayton agreement.
> Last month NATO forces who raided what they called a ``terrorist training
>camp'' in Bosnia detained three Iranians, but later freed them.
> Another group of Iranians held by Croat police in Bosnia in February were
>also released.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 08:06 Sun Mar 03 EXP: 8 :00 Wed Mar 06
>
>
> Bosnian premier visits Iran to discuss ties
> NICOSIA, March 3 (Reuter) - Bosnian Prime Minister Hasan Muratovic arrived
>in Tehran on Sunday to discuss the former Yugoslav republic's relations with
>Iran, the official Iranian news agency IRNA said.
> Iranian Vice-President Hassan Habibi said Tehran, which backed Bosnian
>Moslems in their three-and-a-half-year war against Serbs, would expand its
>cooperation with the Bosnian government, IRNA said.
> Muratovic told reporters on arrival in Tehran that meetings were to be held
>in Sarajevo and in Pakistan's capital Islamabad to accelerate Bosnia's
>reconstruction following the Dayton peace accord. He did not say when the
>meetings would be held.
> ``Now that conditions have improved in Bosnia, Iran will continue its
>assistance to the Bosnian Moslems and will work to expand its cooperation,''
>Habibi was quoted by IRNA as saying.
> ``Grounds for Tehran-Sarajevo cooperation are very broad and all relevant
>issues will be reviewed'' during Muratovic's visit, Habibi said.
> The New York Times said on Sunday the Bosnian government was sending
>soldiers to Iran for infantry training in a bid to revamp its military.
> The Times, without quoting a source, said American officials had warned the
>Bosnians that if they did not remove ``several hundred'' foreign soldiers,
>mostly Iranians and other Islamic units, this could jeopardise any programmes
>for U.S. military assistance to Bosnia.
> Hundreds of Islamic fighters, including Iranians fought on the side of
>their fellow-Bosnian Moslems against Bosnian Serbs before the Dayton agreement.
> Last month NATO forces who raided what they called a ``terrorist training
>camp'' in Bosnia detained three Iranians, but later freed them.
> Another group of Iranians held by Croat police in Bosnia in February were
>also released.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 05:57 Sun Mar 03 EXP: 5 :00 Wed Mar 06
>
>
> Voice of Ayatollah Khomeini urges Iranians to vote
> By Barry May
> TEHRAN, March 3 (Reuter) - ``Rush to the polls!'' -- the stern tones of
>Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini echo eerily across the airwaves as Iran prepares to
>vote in parliamentary elections.
> Sound-bites by the founder of Iran's 1979 Islamic revolution, dead these
>six years past, are being broadcast in a campaign to persuade people to vote in
>Friday's polls.
> Snatches of his recorded messages are heard throughout the day on Iranian
>state radio and television in a concerted government effort to overcome voter
>apathy in a nation where an election campaign that began on Thursday has yet to
>generate much popular enthusiasm or excitement.
> The government retains its traditional powerbase comprised mostly of
>Mostazafin -- poor and dispossessed -- who regularly attend prayer gatherings
>and official rallies in the thousands to demonstrate mass support for the
>Islamic revolution.
> But their number has shrunk over the past 17 years, shown in declining
>turnout at four previous elections.
> In Tehran, 2.5 million people voted in the Islamic republic's first
>parliamentary election in 1980, and in the last one in 1992 the turnout was
>only 1.7 million, said Ataollah Mohajerani, parliamentary adviser to President
>Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani.
> The parliamentary elections, held every four years, have taken on
>significance as an indicator to what is likely to happen in the more important
>presidential election next year.
> Rafsanjani, a pragmatist and economic reformer elected in 1988 by a
>landslide, completes two four-year terms in June 1997 and cannot stand for
>re-election.
> But analysts said on Sunday many ordinary Iranians, naturally inclined
>towards pessimism in their political thinking and readily suspecting
>conspiracy, were more concerned with the state of the economy and prices rising
>by 50 percent a year than about dogma or ideology.
> ``Those who are supposed to be elected will be elected and our vote has no
>meaning at all,'' said a middle-aged engineer.
> ``I hear that all the time,'' said a Tehran taxi driver.
> In New York, the group Human Rights Watch/Middle East said in a weekend
>statement that the election process in Iran ``severely limits citizen
>participation.''
> Candidates for 270 seats in the Majlis (parliament) are constrained by
>strict regulations on what they are allowed to do to get their messages across
>to the electorate.
> Speeches can be made only in such places as mosques and universities, a
>rule reported to have been flouted by some candidates leaping on buses and
>addressing passengers.
> The only liberal Islamist coalition opposed to the government said on
>Sunday it would play no further part in campaigning because the interior
>ministry had denied it permission to hold public meetings.
> Officially there are no political parties, only groups or factions with
>varying platforms.
> Nor are there any opinion polls to indicate who is ahead among the 3,232
>candidates -- including 187 women -- who have been checked by a clergy-based
>Guardian Council for their belief in Islam and Iran's Islamic state system
>headed by a supreme religious leader.
> Some 2,027 would-be candidates have been rejected. Some were deemed enemies
>of the Islamic government.
> Two groups of approved candidates stand out: the conservative Combatant
>Clergy Association, which controls the Majlis, and its rival the centrist
>Servants of Iran's Construction, which supports Rafsanjani's policies.
> Their common objective is development of the Islamic government. They
>differ on how to achieve it.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 04:34 Sun Mar 03 EXP: 4 :00 Wed Mar 06
>
>
> Liberal opposition group withdraws from Iran election
> TEHRAN, March 3 (Reuter) - Liberal opposition politicians said on Sunday
>they would play no further part in campaigning for Iran's parliamentary
>elections.
> A coalition of liberal Islamists from the Iran Freedom Movement (IFM), the
>National Front (NF) and individual activists said the interior ministry, which
>is responsible for organising next Friday's elections, late on Saturday
>rejected the group's request for permission to hold public meetings.
> ``We have been deprived of any chance of communicating with the voting
>public,'' said former foreign minister Ebrahim Yazdi, secretary-general of the
>IFM.
> ``We had planned to hold several public meetings,'' at Tehran University
>and two sports stadiums, he was quoted in Iran News daily.
> The IFM and NF comprise an illegal but tolerated coalition of liberal
>Islamists. Only four of its 11 candidates for the elections to the 270-seat
>Majlis (parliament) passed a vetting process by a clergy-based Guardian Council
>which checked all contenders for their Islamic beliefs. The council has
>rejected one-third of all would-be candidates.
> Another coalition leader, veteran activist Ezzatollah Sahabi, said the
>Guardian Council had rejected most opposition and independent candidates and he
>was pulling out from the campaign.
> ``Anyone who enters the race in this unhealthy atmosphere finds all the
>doors closed. All traditional gathering places such as mosques, schools, and
>public halls are closed to independent candidates,'' Sahabi said in a
>statement.
> Yazdi said the IFM wanted to present its programmes to electors so they
>could vote for its plans rather than for individual candidates.
> ``Now, we cannot explain our movement's or our candidates' plans and
>platforms to the public. Therefore, we have decided to withdraw from the Majlis
>elections.''
> The coalition's withdrawal left the Mujahideen of the Islamic Revolution, a
>legal radical Islamist group, as the only opposition in the race.
> Campaigning for the elections, the fifth since Iran's Islamic revolution in
>1979, is limited to meetings at such venues as mosques and universities.
>Posters which comply with an official standard are allowed but there are no
>political rallies or campaigning on radio or television.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 00:57 Sun Mar 03 EXP: 0 :00 Wed Mar 06
>
>
> Bosnia sending soldiers to Iran for training - paper
> NEW YORK, March 3 (Reuter) - The Bosnian government is sending soldiers to
>Iran for infantry training in a bid to revamp its military, The New York Times
>reported on Sunday, quoting senior Western and Bosnian officials.
> The newspaper said two Bosnian government officials, who spoke on the
>condition of anonymity, confirmed the training was taking place but refused to
>say how many Bosnian troops were in Iran or when they had been sent there.
> European countries with embassies in Iran told the Times there are probably
>``a few hundred'' Bosnians being trained or have recently trained in light
>infantry tactics.
> The newspaper quoted a senior European military officer in Vienna as saying
>his Foreign Ministry had received steady reports of Bosnians going to Iran for
>training but they did not have precise numbers.
> ``What we worry about is not the level of military expertise that will be
>achieved in Iran by these Bosnians, but the indoctrination of Islamic ideology
>that is also part of any training programme,'' the unnamed officer said.
> The newspaper said the training and Iranian troops still in Bosnia could
>anger and alarm Bosnia's Western backers.
> It quoted unnamed NATO officials as saying that there were 150 to 200
>Revolutionary Guards in Bosnia.
> Figures for foreign Islamic fighters in Bosnia have varied widely but
>officials with the NATO-led peacekeeping Implementation Force in Bosnia have
>said consistently said that most of the several hundred Mujahideen in Bosnia
>have left the region and have discounted reports of any significant number of
>organised Iranian troops.
> Foreign soldiers, including Islamic warriors known as Mujahideen who fought
>for the Bosnian Moslems, were required to leave the region under the terms of
>the Dayton peace agreement.
> The newspaper said the presence of Bosnian soldiers in Iran did not violate
>the Balkan peace plan but could cause tensions between the Bosnian government
>and Washington.
> ``The Dayton agreement does not prevent any country from going out and
>seeking training and assistance,'' the paper quoted Vigleik Eide, a retired
>Norwegian general who heads arms control talks taking place in Vienna between
>the former warring factions.
> The American Government has promised to help train and equip the Bosnian
>Army once arms talks aimed at achieving a balance of forces in the Balkans end
>in Vienna in June, the report said.
> The Times, without quoting a source, said American officials have warned
>the Bosnians if they do not remove ``several hundred'' foreign soldiers, mostly
>Iranian and other Islamic units, this could jeopardise any military assistance
>programmes.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>
>
=END=
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 1996 08:58:50 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Carol_Bowie@mindlink.bc.ca (Carol Bowie)
Subject: Worship Services
Dear All,
I have been following the posts about "worship" stemming from the Mysticism
conference. We sent the following post to another friend some weeks ago and
thought you might find it of interest
>We thought of Worship Services for some years, but only recently did we
move into a community which agreed to try them. Perhaps because we now live
in British Columbia's Bible Belt. Our objective was to provide the Public
with the option of meeting the Baha'is and contacting the Faith through a
"devotional" rather than an "intellectual" or "personal friendship" gathering.
>
>In our first four months, holding services two Sundays a month in rented
quarters, no one has walked in off the street. We advertise on the "Worship
Centres' page of the local paper. However we do have between 12 and 15
people there every time, and that number always includes at least one
non-Baha'i - usually a family member or friend of one of the Baha'is. Since
the start of 1996, two new and active seekers who are investigating
"intellectually" and who attend firesides also come faithfully to the
Worship Service and steep themselves in the prayers and Writings.
>
>One young woman declared in December after having come to two Services with
her Baha'i boyfriend. She was stimulated to declare after experiencing a
traditional christening service, during which she compared her experience at
the Worship Services and what she was feeling during the christening. She
thought to herself "I must become a Baha'i", and came to the next Worship
Service to declare. It was obvious that in her mind a "church service" was
where you made important religious decisions. We are sure she would have
become a Baha'i sooner or later, but honestly feel that the non-threatening,
non-discussive, devotional atmosphere made it possible for her to declare
"sooner" rather than "later". Now, the Worship Service and the Feast are
the two important Baha'i events in her life.
>
>One side effect has been that the Baha'is, including some of the Iranians,
who come regularly say that they get more from the Worship Services than
they do from the devotions at the Feast. This has also started to change
the way our Feast devotions are planned and carried out by some members.
>
>Specifics: The Service lasts between 35 and 45 minutes which includes 10
to 15 minutes of "meditational" music at the beginning. This assists
everyone to make the transition from "arriving" to "being", and allows those
who are unavoidably delayed to enter without feeling the need to either
"acknowledge" or be "acknowledged".
>
>The program consists of prayers and readings interspersed with suitable
music. In our minds suitable music covers a wide range from "gospel" to
Baha'i "anthems" to excerpts from "the Messiah" to Leontyne Price singing
Mozart's "Alleluia". We have no live musical talent in the community so we
depend on recordings. We retape all our selections for a Service and play
them back through a reasonably good portable machine.
>
>The Readings are all chosen and assigned ahead of time, and the assigned
readers are asked to practice. We try to choose the best readers in the
community and usually end up with some people doing more that one reading.
So important is the presentation of the Writings that the Assembly has asked
the Task Force responsible for the Worship Service to do some tutoring in
"good reading". We are not concerned with "accent" but with pacing and
expression. As one of our community members often says, "Baha'u'llah
forbids the muttering of the holy verses in the street, so why do we put up
with it in our gatherings"
>
>Each Service has a theme and we choose one of `Abdu'l-Baha's shorter talks
from Paris Talks or Promulgation of Universal Peace as the main reading.
For those of Christian background this serves as the "sermon" or "homily".
Because this is intended primarily as a vehicle for non-Baha'is the Assembly
decided not to use any Persian chants. Some of our music has, however,
included Gregorian chanting.
>
>We also use recorded "meditational" music to assist people in making the
transition from the spoken service to "its time to mingle". We have just
started providing simple refreshments after the Service to encourage mingling.
>
>Our Assembly began with a three month trial period and recently decided to
extend for another three months. Our feeling is that if we can sustain the
effort, it will eventually prove invaluable in attracting and consolidating
new believers.
>
At yesterday's service a young man came to the service specifically to sign
his card. He has known of the Faith for some time, has never attended a
fireside in our community, but has attended two worship services.
It feels like the time is now.
Regards,
David Bowie, BC Canada.
=END=
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 96 20:05:13 UT
From: "Hannah E. Reinstein"
To: talisman@indiana.edu, "Carmen Mathenge"
Subject: RE: Joining Talisman
Absolutely true! I've learned more in a year on Talisman than I did in the
entire decade before that. It's habit-forming because it's so alive, sometimes
passionate, sometimes funny, once in a while absolutely incomprehensible,
rarely repetitious, and full of spirit. Really, there is no other email forum
like it. Forums like soc.religion.bahai are terribly dull by comparison.
----------
From: owner-talisman@indiana.edu on behalf of Carmen Mathenge
Sent: Monday, 04 March, 1996 9:10 AM
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Joining Talisman
>>What do I need to do to join Talisman?
>>
>>-- Mike
>>
Dear Mike, and Chris and Jon,
Welcome to Talisman! The major requirement for joining is to run out as
quickly as possible and buy an unabridged dictionary so you can look up
things like hermaneutics and eisegesis and not have to rely on Burl's daffy
definitions.
WARNING: If you think you can be on Talisman and have a life, forget it.
If, after three or four days, you still have any interest in the latter,
unsubscribe as quickly as possible! And don't touch the computer until
withdrawal symptoms have disappeared.
A Talisman-free day? That's like asking me to go without coffee.
With loving Baha'i greetings,
Carmen
=END=
Date: 04 Mar 96 14:51:55 EST
From: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
To:
Subject: Bill of Rights as Unity-builder
Dear Talismanians,
Alison Marshall's post from a few days ago regarding viewing a Baha'i
Bill of Rights as an exercise in unity-building rather than a
jurisprudential exercise in disunity struck me as right on target.
Love,
David
ps: Big Dog Odie did not eat the silver. And Odie is not short for
odious, but instead is the familiar of either odoriferous, Odysseus,
or overdose. The 100-pound puppie's formal name is Shering's Golden
Odin, but despite the mellifluous tone of such an appelation, Linda's
Iraqi Shiite mulla friends wouldn't come close to him. We suspect
the silver may have gone via the Iraqi underground to ultimately
support that terrorist enterprise called the Burl and Derek Patagonia
Fund, or the BDPF. You can see those initials spray-painted on
freeway overpasses everywhere between Santa Cruz and the Pacific
Northwest. Coincidence? I think not.
=END=
Date: Mon, 04 Mar 96 13:23:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Yahya Azal
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Bryan Stover was kind enough to inform me that only the first few
paragraphs of my post titled "Azal" came over. My apologies to
everyone. I'm having email problems and in fact posted this note a
day or so ago but only today appeared on Talisman. At any rate, I
read over it and caught a few typos. take care, ahang.
Lately, I've been deepening on one of the larger Works of the Bab,
namely, Kitab-i Panj Sha`n (Five Qualifications) which is among His
last Writings and I'm struck by the tone and language used to address
Yahya Azal and the clear predictions that "Him whom God will make
Manifest" will appear shortly (i.e. during Azal's days) and that Yahya
Azal will fail to recognize Him. In addition one should note that the
Bab in instructing Azal of some of the most basic aspects of ontology
and beliefs employs a tone suitable for instructing a wayward person
and not someone who is suppose to assume the leadership of the
community after the Bab. So, if nothing else, this section of Panj
Sha`n is clear documentation that the Bab never had in mind for Yahya
Azal to put forth outrageous claims that he did.
I'm aware that E.G. Browne had a copy of this Work in his possession
and its a mystery as to why he failed to see based on these passages
that not only Azal was not held very highly in the eyes of the Bab,
but in fact was assured to be one who will cause harm to "Him whom God
will make manifest."
Further, its a bit puzzling as to why these passages where not used by
Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha to support their arguments against Azalis
and can only assume that They did not wish to shame Yahya Azal any
more than what he had brought upon himself.
The copy of Panj Sha`n that I'm using is in fact an Azali publication.
It has no date or place of publication but I suspect it was
calligraphed in Qazvin and printed in Tihran. Its in a beautiful
script, very readable, and contains 3 pages of Table of Contents, a
total of 447 pages of Text, and some 14 pages of notes at the end.
These endnotes are very interesting and contain such info as to the
date of Revelation of this Work (commenced on the first day of Naw-Ruz
1850 and lasted for 17 days) and some other useful data. The Table of
Contents has also much useful info such as the identify of the
recipient of each section and that's how I know the section beginning
on page 125 is addressed to Yahya Azal.
This section (pages 125-137) is in two parts, the first half Arabic
and the second half in Persian.
I have not translated the Text as regrettably I'm thoroughly
unqualified to undertake such a task, but have taken some notes on the
Arabic portion which are shared herewith. My comments are in square
bracket, [].
This section starts:
In the name of God, the Living, the Alive.
[The original is: "Bismi'llah al-hayal al-hayal" and its a play on
the name of Yahya (the living). Yahya Nuri adopted the name of Yahya
Azal partly because, numerically both are equivalent to 38 but mostly
since the Bab was fond of refering to Himself as Nuqtih-i azaliyyih,
subh-i azal, etc. By adopting a surname which was employed by the Bab
and appeared so frequently in them, Azal tried to give credence to his
claim.]
Praise be God, there is no God by Him, the Living and the Alive. From
eternity and for ever, the glory emanated from God be upon "Him whom
God will manifest" and believers (promoters) of His Cause.
Be thee (Yahya Azal) witness that God is sanctified perpetually above
His creation and supreme over imaginal world. He is holier than all
that created or will be created. He has not created people, except
for His own recognition and that He is unneedy of them and their
worship. And His recognition may not be achieved except through His
love and worship may not be possible except through obedience.
[Obviously, this passage is the reformulation of Hadith-i Qudsi "I was
a hidden treasure wished to be known, therefore, created man to know
Me and love Me." Its also the same sentiments articulated in the
opening paragraph of the Kitab-i Aqdas about twin, inseparable, duties
of recognition and obedience.]
So, recognize God, thy Creator, the most Glorious, and achieve this
through the recognition of Him whom God will manifest, mighty are His
blessings. Serve God, thy Lord, through servitude to Him whom God
will manifest, long be His aid. As the path of the essence of Eternal
(azal) is closed and the way to the hidden eternity is forbidden
otherwise.
[This is the key Baha'i doctrine too, namely, recognition of God and
His Names is not possible except through His Prophets. But what is of
particular importance is that the Bab is covering some very basic
things with someone who in a couple of years will advance the claim to
His successorship. This makes no sense! Is this the sort of thing
that Baha'u'llah, for example, would be covering in the Tablet of
Branch regarding Abdu'l-Baha, or is this how He addressed Abdu'l-Baha
in the Tablet to the land of Ba??]
When thee [Yahya Azal] understand this, then realize that God, exalted
be His sanctity, will identify Himself to His creation through the
manifestation of His own Self. Therefore, all the nations have
recognized God, their Lord, naught but through recognition of their
Prophets. And those endowed with understanding will perceive this.
[Up through here was page 125.]
[A long section follows explaining that the Essence of God is beyond
comprehension of all, but His attributes are manifested in the Eternal
Point (nuqtih-i azaliyyih, ie. the Bab) of the Dispensation of Bayan.
He goes on to say such things as: Whoever worships the Manifestation
of God, has worshipped God; whoever serves Him, has served God;
whoever praises Him, has praised God, ...]
[Bottom of page 127:]
When thee [Azal] has understood these, then firstly grasp the proofs
and upon comprehended that, turn with certainty to the Throne of
Appearance at the time of Manifestation and have no fears. As this is
the path of God, in the past and future and the way of the
Manifestation of God among all nations.
[middle of page 128:]
And in the Days of "Him whom God will manifest", whenever He chooses
to appear, on that Day, this Word [ie. the Manifestation] will not be
recognized except through believing in Him and do not look upon the
Witnesses of Bayan.
[Its very instructive that the Bab explains that Witnesses of Bayan,
which included Yahya Azal, should *not* be used as guides for
discovering Him whom God will manifest.]
Because their blessings [ie. station] was due to believing in the
Primal Point, and similarly for the faithfuls (teachers) of "Him whom
God will manifest" and believing in Him. And nothing else is worthy,
both in the past and the future.
Strive to acquire higher qualifications. Perhaps thee will be enabled
to render assistance to God in thy essence. And acquire spiritual
qualities and radiate rays of pure ones, so that, perchance, in the
Day of Resurrection [here refers to appearance of Him whom God will
manifest], if thee will not make God, thy Lord, happy, at least thee
will not make Him sad.
[This is an amazing prophecy by the Bab where He predicts that Azal
will bring sadness to Baha'u'llah. In this last sentence, "God"
refers to Baha'u'llah. First time that I read this admonishment to
Azal that he should avoid saddening man-yazharu'llah, immediately the
passage in Abdu'l-Baha's Will and Testament came to mind where He
enjoins upon all not to cause the dust of despondency be shed upon
Shoghi Effendi.]
[A section follows explaining that for ordinary people, sadness and
happiness are two distinct states but before Him whom God will
manifest they are the one and the same as are all the other
conditions. Namely, He is above such human feelings and limitations.]
[middle of page 130, line 7:]
It will please God, to exalt the station of this Word [ie. the Bab],
for exaltation of His own Self in the Day of Him whom God will
manifest. Be watchful from this day, lest God, thy Creator and His
believers (teachers of the Cause) will appear and thee [ie. Yahya
Azal] be among those unaware. Because now (soon) is, of course, the
time of coming of Him whom God will manifest along with His followers.
Recognize Him and His believers, if thee believe in the Primal Point
and His believers. Therefore, thy faith in the Bayan, at the Day of
His Manifestation, is believing in Him and nothing else.
[This paragraph is most emphatic in tone! In a very clear language
the Bab instructs Azal to turn to "Him whom God will make manifest" as
will occur very soon. Then He tells him that his belief in the Bab is
contingent upon believing in Baha'u'llah. In other words, if one
fails to recognize the next Manifestation, he has failed to recognized
all the earlier Ones.]
Do not wonder of the Cause of God. Perhaps the Cause of God will
appear and thee [Yahya Azal] remain unaware and be veiled of the
Throne of Manifestation.
[Then, the Bab delivers this final punch on page 131:]
The Throne of the Truth became manifest and thee [Yahya Azal] failed
to recognize Him and all things created through Him.
regards, ahang.
=END=
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 14:16:59 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Talisman
Subject: Prescreening
One of my dear friends has honored me in a private e-mail with the title
of "knee-jerk Haifa loyalist." I have no hesitation in saying that I do
not merit this title, however, I hope to attain to it. I've always
thought of the Hands of the Cause as being like the human hand. The head
gives it a command, and it carries it out without forethought or
criticism. Likewise, when the patellar tendon is struck with the
physician's mallet, it reacts without forethought.
I've been reflecting on the inner meanings of this honorific, referred to,
as we shall see, in one of the mystical writings of Baha'u'llah during the
early Baghdad period.
You will recall that Baha'u'llah says that the world is showing signs of
life -- quickening in the womb of humankind. "Quickening," as any
pregnant woman can testify, means that the child has learned to kick. So,
kicking is, yea verily, a sign of life. The child is learning essential
reflex actions. As above, so below. This is a metaphysical parallel to
the reflex without forethought, of acceptance of the guidance of the House
of Justice.
The alternative "screening" approach to the guidance of the House goes
like this:
1. Is this legislation?
2. Does it fall within the domain of legislation permitted to the House?
3. OK, there's an interpretation by Shoghi Effendi specifically saying that
this falls within the domain of the House.
4. Was this within the domain of Shoghi Effendi to say so?
5. OK, it was, and was based on an extant Tablet by Baha'u'llah,
revealed by His own Pen.
6. Whoops, have to consult the scientists. Has any accredited
scientist whose views are accepted by the generality of the scientific
community found scientific, logical, or theoretical evidence contrary to
the teaching of the Manifestation?
7. Let's kick it out.
See, this is the converse of knee-jerk acceptance, but it still involves
kicking.
This is all elaborated in the little-known "Lawh-i-Kickmat." ;-)
Brent
=END=
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 13:32:35 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Re: Joining Talisman
To: talisman@indiana.edu
---- Begin Forwarded Message
DEar Talismanians
Read this and relaise how much we are helping educate the planet.
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
Return-Path: <102464.2703@compuserve.com>
Received: from dub-img-7.compuserve.com by ix8.ix.netcom.com
(8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
id KAA24017; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 10:11:07 -0800
Received: by dub-img-7.compuserve.com (8.6.10/5.950515)
id NAA22162; Mon, 4 Mar 1996 13:10:35 -0500
Date: 04 Mar 96 13:07:45 EST
From: Mike Somerby <102464.2703@compuserve.com>
To: DEREK COCKSHUT
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: Joining Talisman
Message-ID: <960304180745_102464.2703_EHS153-1@CompuServe.COM>
I'm new on the INTERNET. This message I got says it was originally
from Derek
Cockshut and there is a letter from Derek to Burl, but there is also a
message
to me from Burl about signing up on Talisman? I am replying to Burl's
message
but I think this message will go to you (Derek)?
Reply:
Dr. Burl,
That's sound like a lot of work. I may not have what it takes to be on
Talisman
though. And for all of those individuals who did made it onto
Talisman, I
commend you. You all must be very accomplished and versatile people.
I'm just
the average, everyday person, but I can always hope, and some day, dog
'gonnit,
I'm going to make it on Talisman.
Sincerely, your "wanna be on Talisman someday" admirer,
Mike Somerby, 102464, 2703
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 4 Mar 1996 13:28:08 PST8PDT
Subject: Panj Sha`n repost (LONGISH)/ was Re: Azal
Greetings Blessed Ones,
re:
> Date sent: Sun, 03 Mar 96 11:48:01 -0500
> From: "Ahang Rabbani"
> To: talisman@indiana.edu
> Subject: Azal
> Lately, I've been deepening on one of the larger Works of the Bab,
> namely, Kitab-i Panj Sha`n (Five Qualifications) ...
I happened to be tidying up some of my talisman archive folders
and stumbled on something (see appended text) that you might find
interesting. I took the liberty of reformatting the paragraphs a
wee bit. Apparently there were some font mapping problems when
our dear list owner imported the document into his emailer.
As far as I can tell there were no subsequent messages on
talisman about this item.
Bye,
EP
*********************************************************
******************** appended repost ********************
*********************************************************
: Date: Tue, 18 Jul 95 09:46:58 EWT
: From: JWALBRID@ucs.indiana.edu
: Subject: Mystical texts
: To: talisman@indiana.edu
:
:
: The following is a brief, and not very good, paper on a work of
: the Bab's. (Steve Lambden could take it to pieces without much
: thought.) I send it because of an experimental translation I did
: of a bit of the text, which I thought might be of interest to our
: mystics.
:
: john walbridge
: *****
:
:
:
:
: John Walbridge
: 21 November 1991
:
: The BbUs
: Panj ShaUn
:
: Among the last works of the Bb is a large book consisting of
: rhapsodies on various names of God rendered in the five literary
: styles into which he divided his writings and written in a
: strange style full of artificially constructions from Arabic
: roots. This work, the Panj ShaUn or RFive Modes,S and similar
: works of the Bb like the KitbuUl-AsmU, are not easily explicable
: to the contemporary mind. The following is a very preliminary
: examination of this odd work. It is based on a quick examination
: of the work and not a full reading of it. I have used the Azal
: edition published in Iran in the early 1960s. It should be noted
: that there is also a Persian Panj ShaUn, a much smaller book,
: that I have not seen. This is therefore all extremely
: preliminary, and I ask the indulgence of the reader.
:
: Circumstances of its composition.
:
: We know exactly when the Panj ShaUn was written: 19 MarchP4
: April 1950. The day it was begun was both Naw-R,z and 5 Jum}d}
: I, the first day of the seventh Bb year and the sixth anniversary
: according to the lunar calendar of the BbUs declaration of his
: mission to Mull Hyusayn. That day and on each of the following
: sixteen days he wrote a passage in each of the five styles in
: commentary on a name of God. In the published Azal edition, four
: parts are missing, corresponding to the eighth, thirteen,
: fifteen, and sixteenth days, and the Azal scribe apologizes that
: one or two other parts are taken from manuscripts of lesser
: authority. Some, though not all, of the parts are dedicated to
: individual believers.
:
: We know these particulars not from the text itself but from
: a document published at the end of the Azal edition. This is
: evidently the BbUs correspondence log for the period 19 MarchP20
: June 1850. it consists of entries separated by horizontal lines.
: Each entry gives the name of God for that day (of which more
: later), the number of the day in the Bb month, the day of the
: week in the conventional Arabic name and the Bb name, and notes
: about what the Bb wrote on each day and what was dispatched to
: believers. The whole is firmly dated by a heading giving the
: opening date in both the lunar and Bb calendars. There are
: certain minor difficulties relating to the dating, but nothing
: that casts doubt on the authenticity of the document.
:
: The notes on the BbUs writings are divided into three
: columns. The first is headed, Rthat which was sent down from God
: most highS contains a note of the general content of the BbUs
: writing that day. This gradually dwindles from a long paragraph
: on the first day to a few words or nothing later in the document.
: Beginning on the second day, the second column contains a briefs
: statement about the amount and type of writing on that day. For
: example on day 2, on which the Bb revealed a chapter in each of
: the five styles on the theme, RGod is unique,S we read, n
: commentary on the name TunityU revealed in the five modes. That
: which flowed from the Pen of God was five sheets.S The third
: column, Rthat which ascended unto God most high by the Primal
: Point,S seems to be notes concerning outgoing correspondence,
: with addressees indicated by abbreviations and numbers indicating
: the number of sheets. In some cases, the addressees can be
: identified, but not always.
:
: The contents of the present book are clearly indicated by
: the entries for the month of Bah, the first month of the Bb year;
: and it was this that enabled the Azal scribe to compile his
: edition and put the chapters in their proper order. After 17 Bah
: there are no further entries indicating writing in this style,
: evidence that the book as we have it is largely complete.
:
: The log continues for several more Bb months. Many days are
: blank except for the name of God for that day and the dates.
: Other days record the writing of talisman, prayers, etc. Mid-May
: saw a burst of correspondence, ending abruptly on 14 May. This
: presumably marks the departure of Sayyh3, the last Bb courier to
: leave Chihrq, who carried the BbUs remaining papers to Mull
: @AbduUl-Karm Qazvn. Though the latter part of the month saw
: considerable writing, it was mainly prayers and other such things
: not necessarily intended to be sent immediately to the believers.
:
: The last recorded revelation was 1 Nr/3 June. The last ten days
: bear the same name of God, RGod is most highS (Allh A@l). The
: log ends on Friday, 18 Nr/20 June 1850, apparently the day after
: the Bb reached Tabrz. Most likely Siyyid Hyusayn Yazd carried
: the log with him to safety after the execution of the Bb.
: Presumably it then passed into BahUllhUs hands and was among the
: Bb manuscripts
[remainder of 3/4/96 session lost due to hard drive crash]
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