October 12, 2006

SPIEGEL INTERVIEW WITH AGA KHAN

"Islam Is a
Faith of Reason"

Karim Aga Khan IV,
descendant of the prophet Muhammad and spiritual leader of 20 million Ismaili Muslims, discusses the foundations of his faith,
the controversy over the pope's recent statements about Islam and ways of
preventing a global clash between religions.

Getty Images

Karim Aga Khan IV:
"Nobody will ever convince me that the faith of Islam, that Christianity,
that Judaism will fight each other in our times -- they have too much in common."

SPIEGEL: Your Highness, in a
lecture Pope Benedict XVI quoted Emperor Manuel as saying: "Show me just
what Muhammed brought that was new, and there you
will find things only evil and inhuman, such as a command to spread by the
sword the faith he preached." This quotation from the 14th century has
caused great uproar in the Muslim world. Why? And what was your reaction?

Aga Khan: From my point of view, I would start by saying that I was
concerned about this statement because this has caused great unhappiness in the
Islamic world. There appears to be momentum towards more and more
misunderstandings between religions, a degradation of relations. I think we all
should try not to add anything to worsen the situation.

SPIEGEL: Benedict XVI did explicitly dissociate himself from the emperor's
quoted statement. The pope's own position with regard to his lecture is that he
wanted it to promote a dialogue; and since then, several times, he has
expressed his respect for the world religion that is Islam. Was it just an
unfortunate choice of words? Or was he deliberately misunderstood?

Aga Khan: I do not wish to pass judgement
on that, nor can I. And it might also be unreasonable for me to presume that I
know what he meant. But that (medieval) period in history, to my knowledge, was
one of the periods of extraordinary theological exchanges and debates between
the Byzantine Empire and the Muslim world. A fascinating time. The emperor's statement does not reflect
that, so I think it is somewhat out of context.

SPIEGEL: The theme of Pope Benedict's lecture was different, it was one of
his favorites: the link between faith and reason which, he said, implies a
rejection of any link between religion and violence. Is that something you
could agree on?

Aga Khan: If you interpret his speech as one about faith and reason
then I think that the debate is very exciting and could be enormously
constructive between the Muslim world and the non-Muslim world. So I have two
reactions to the pope's lecture: There is my concern about the degradation of
relations and, at the same time, I see an opportunity. A chance to talk about a
serious, important issue: the relationship between faith and logic.

PRINCE KARIM AGA
KHAN IV.

Prince Karim Aga Khan IV is considered to be the direct
descendant of the prophet Mohammad and, as the 49th imam, the spiritual
leader of the Ismaili Muslims. A
minority community within the Muslim faith, the Ismailis
include some 20 million members scattered across 25 countries in
Central Asia, Europe and Eastern Africa. The
Aga Khan himself lives near Paris in Aiglemont
Palace. Born near Geneva, the prince grew up in Kenya,
Switzerland and London before being
educated at Harvard. At the age of 20, he succeeded his grandfather as the
Aga Khan, thus becoming a religious leader and the administrator of billions
in assets. Fed by his family inheritance and a 10 percent tithing fee from Ismaili Muslims, the Aga Khan channels much of the money
into the Aga Khan Development Network, one of the world's
most important private development aid organizations. The Aga Khan has two
sons from his first marriage - - Rahim, 34, and Hussein, 32. He also has a son from his
second marriage to the German princess Gabriele zu Leiningen - - six-
year- old Ali Mohammed. The Aga Khan must
name one of his sons as his successor, but that choice will remain a secret
until his death.

SPIEGEL: If the pope were to
invite you to take part with other religious leaders in a debate about faith,
reason and violence, would you accept?

Aga Khan: Yes, definitely. I would, however, make the point that an
ecumenical discussion at a certain stage will meet certain limits. Therefore I
would prefer to talk more about a cosmopolitan ethic stemming from all of
Earth's great faiths.

SPIEGEL: Does Islam have a problem with reason?

Aga Khan: Not at all. Indeed, I would say the contrary. Of the Abrahamic faiths, Islam is probably the one that places the
greatest emphasis on knowledge. The purpose is to understand God's creation,
and therefore it is a faith which is eminently logical. Islam is a faith of
reason.

SPIEGEL: So, what are the root causes of terrorism?

Aga Khan: Unsolved political conflicts, frustration and, above all,
ignorance. Nothing that was born out of a theological
conflict.

SPIEGEL: Which political conflicts do you mean?

Aga Khan: The ones in the Middle East and in Kashmir,
for example. These conflicts have remained unresolved for decades. There is a
lack of urgency in understanding that the situation there deteriorates, it's
like a cancer. If you are not going to act on a cancer early enough, ultimately
it's going to create terrible damage. It can become a breeding ground for
terrorism.

Now to the issue of spreading faith by the sword: All faiths at
some time in their history have used war to protect themselves or expand their
influence, and there were situations when faiths have been used as
justifications for military actions. But Islam does not call for that, it is a
faith of peace.

SPIEGEL: It's true that horrible crimes were committed in the name of
Christianity, for example by the crusaders. That was long ago, that's the past.
But jihadists commit their crimes now, in our times.

Aga Khan: It is not so far in the past that we have seen bloody
fights in the Christian world. Look at Northern Ireland. If we Muslims
interpreted what happened there as a correct expression of Protestantism and
Catholicism or even as the essence of the Christian faith you would simply say
we don't know what we are talking about.

SPIEGEL: "The West (will stand) against the Rest" wrote
Professor Samuel Huntington in his famous book "Clash of
Civilizations." Is such a conflict, such a clash inevitable?

Aga Khan: I prefer to talk about a clash of ignorance. There is so
much horrible, damaging, dangerous ignorance.

SPIEGEL: Which side is
responsible?

Aga Khan: Both. But essentially
the Western world. You would think that an educated person in the 21st
century should know something about Islam; but you look at education in the
Western world and you see that Islamic civilizations have been absent. What is
taught about Islam? As far as I know -- nothing. What was known about Shiism before the Iranian revolution? What was known about
the radical Sunni Wahhabism before the rise of the
Taliban? We need a big educational effort to overcome this. Rather than
shouting at each other, we should be learning to listen to each other. In the
way we used to do it, by working together, with mutual give-and-take. Together
we brought about some of the highest achievements of human civilization. There
is a lot to build on. But I think you cannot build on ignorance.

SPIEGEL: Nonethless, it is striking that a
particularly large number of Muslim-dominated states figure among the most
backward and undemocratic states in the world. Is Islam in need of an era of enlightment? Is the faith even incompatible with democracy
as others claim?

Aga Khan: As I said before, one has to be fair. Some of the
political leaders have inherited problems that are in no way attributable to
the faith. New governance solutions have to be tested and validated over time.
Nor do I believe Muslim states are systematically economic underperformers.
Some of the fastest growing economies and some of the most successful newly
industrialized countries are in the Islamic world. Now
concerning democracy: My democratic beliefs do not go back to the Greek or
French (thinkers) but to an era 1,400 years ago. These are the
principles underlying my religion. During the Prophet's life (peace be upon
him), there was a systematic consultative political process. And the first imam
of the Shiites, prophet Muhammad's cousin and son-in-law, Hazrat
Ali, emphasized: "No honor is like knowledge, no power is like
forbearance, and no support is more reliable than consultation."

October 12, 2006

SPIEGEL INTERVIEW WITH AGA KHAN

"Islam Is a
Faith of Reason" (2)

SPIEGEL: If pluralism, civil society and Islam can coexist
harmoniously, as was proven in the past, then why is this so seldom achieved
nowadays?

Aga Khan: I think we have a very diverse situation in the Islamic
world. Wealthy countries with enormous ressources,
newly industrialized countries, extremely poor ones.

SPIEGEL: Not many are functioning democracies.

Aga Khan: People speak about failed states. I do not think that
states can fail, but democracies certainly can. The failure of democracy is not
specific to the Islamic world. Indeed, about two years ago, the United Nations
carried out an in-depth analysis of democracy in South
America. About 55 percent of the population in South American states
said that they would prefer to live under a paternalistic dictatorship instead
of an incompetent or corrupt democracy that is not improving their living
condition.

SPIEGEL: Most of your Ismaili constituency lives
in states that cannot be called perfect democracies: Pakistan,
Afghanistan, Syria and Iran. What makes democracies fail?

Aga Khan: I ask myself every day what we can do to sustain the
multiple forms of democracy, to make these forms of government work, whether it
is in Latin America, Africa or the Middle East.

SPIEGEL: And what do you believe to be the answer?

DPA

Aga Khan: I admit that I live
in a mood of frustration. What is the point in these areas of the world of
carrying out a referendum in a population that essentially cannot read and
write? What is the point in testing a constitution with a population that knows
no difference between a presidential regime or a
constitutional monarchy? Elections, constitutions -- all this is necessary, but
not sufficient. I think we have to accept that countries have different
histories, different social structures, different needs, so we have to be a
great deal more flexible than we have been.

SPIEGEL: Nor is democracy monolithic. The American model of democracy is
no panacea for the rest of the world. Has George W. Bush aggrevated
the situation with his particular way of bringing democracy to the Middle East? Can the United
States still win the war in Iraq?

Aga Khan: I am very, very worried about Iraq. The invasion of Iraq had an
impact across the world like nothing before in modern times. The invasion has unleashed
every force in the Islamic world, including the relations between the Arabs and
non-Arabs and the relationship between the Shia und
the Sunni.

SPIEGEL: You mean the war created a new terrorist base and radicalized
people?

Aga Khan: Indeed. It mobilized a large number of people across the
Islamic world, who before then were not involved, and
indeed I think they did not want to be.

SPIEGEL: Do you share the view of the American professor and Islam expert Vali Nasr that the balance of
power in the Muslim world is undergoing a decisive shift, that Shiites could
become the most influential force from Baghdad
to Beirut, that the future of the Middle East
will be shaped by wars between different Muslim factions?

Aga Khan: When the invasion of Iraq took place,
we were told two things: (that there would be) regime change and democracy.
Well, anyone who knew the situation in Iraq, as you did, I did, but what
did that mean? That meant a Shia majority; it could
not have been otherwise. Anyone who then concludes that the next issue is a Shia majority in Iraq is going to start thinking, What does
that mean in the region, what does it mean in the Islamic world, what does it
mean in relation to the West? All that was as clear as daylight, you didn't
even have to be a Muslim or a scholar to know that.

SPIEGEL: In your opinion, was it pure ignorance and naivete
that made the Bush government start the war? Was it really about introducing
democracy or a strategic decision about conquering oil fields and military
bases?

Aga Khan: I wish I could answer that question.

SPIEGEL: Are you in contact with the religious leaders in Iraq, like
Grand Ayatollah Sistani? And with
the religious leaders of Iran
as well?

Aga Khan: We have frequent contacts with important personalities in
both countries.

SPIEGEL: What would it take to get you to go to the region as a mediator?

Aga Khan: This is, at the moment, not one of my priorities. One day
maybe, we might consider (participating in the) reconstruction (effort).

SPIEGEL: When you compare the invasion in Iraq
with the one in Afghanistan,
where the Taliban and al-Qaida worked hand in hand ...

Aga Khan: ... there I see a completely different picture. First of
all, the Afghan regime at the time was quasi totally detested by the people; it
was equally unpleasant for Sunnis as it was the for Shias and it was totally unacceptable I think just in terms
of overall civilized life.

SPIEGEL: Afghanistan
is currently being confronted with major problems and the situation seems to be
deteriorating by the hour. What went wrong? And what can the West do to make
the situation more stable?

Aga Khan: The security situation is indeed very worrying -- it is
getting worse, especially in the south. Most of our projects are in the capital
and in the north where (the situation) is better but not satisfying. We can
supply energy from Tajikistan,
we can provide civil services. We try to avoid the danger that certain areas in
Afghanistan
will be rehabilitated more quickly than others. If this development overlaps
with ethnic divides you have another problem. But the main problem is that most
people in Afghanistan
have not seen an improvement in their daily lives. The process of
reconstruction does not seem to be penetrating. We have not succeded
in bringing a culture of hope to this country. One of the central lessons I
have learned after a half century of working in the developing world is that
the replacement of fear by hope is probably the most powerful trampoline of
progress.

SPIEGEL: President Karzai is a personal friend
of yours. Many people see him as a weak leader, and some call him "Mayor
of Kabul" because he is unable to control large parts of the country.

Aga Khan: We should do everything to help him. He has an enomously complex agenda to deal with. He is our best hope.
And besides, he is the elected leader and we have to work with the parliament.

SPIEGEL: Even if warlords and a former members of
the Taliban are represented in Afghanistan's
parliament?

Aga Khan: You either accept the results of democracy or you don't.
Otherwise you talk about qualifying democracy.

SPIEGEL: That means the West should deal with the radical Islamist Hamas as well?

Aga Khan: You have to work with whoever the population has elected
as long as they are willing to respect what I call cosmopolitan ethics. Now,
it's true that Hamas has a record of conflict ...

SPIEGEL: ... of outright terror ...

Aga Khan: ... but it would not be the only time that movements that
have such a record make it into parliament, and even end up in charge of government
later on. Can I remind you of Jomo Kenyatta and his
Mau Mau movement in Kenya,
for example, or the ANC in South
Africa? Take away the causes of extremism
and extremists can come back to a more reasonable political agenda. That change
to me is one of the wonderful things about the human race.

SPIEGEL: You know Syria's
president, Bashar Assad, very well. You recently
visited him again in Damascus.
In contrast to the American administration, the German government is trying to
get him involved in the Middle East peace
process.

Aga Khan: I would like to compliment the German government and
others in Europe who have
taken the decision to invite President Assad to be a party to the peace
process. The process of change from decades of political directionalism
is something that needs time, as you saw in East Germany. I think there are
many reasons to go out of our way to assist Syria in making the transition from
the past to the future.

SPIEGEL: If you look back at the years that have passed since World War II
-- the Cold War between the East and the West, the ideological conflict with
communism -- would you ever have thought that this conflict could be replaced
by one between the West and radical Islamists?

Aga Khan: I beg you, please get away from the concept of a conflict of
religion. It is not such a conflict. Nobody will ever convince me that the
faith of Islam, that Christianity, that Judaism will fight each other in our
times -- they have too much in common. That's why I am talking about this
global ethic which unites us all. That's why we are trying to work with the
Catholic Church in Portugal
on a program aimed at immigant minorities. I am aware
of a sense of disaffection with the society that many young Muslims feel
because they think that the Western society has the intention of marginalizing
or damaging them.

SPIEGEL: The German government just organized a conference with many
different Muslim groups and personalities who live in Germany. Do you
consider such a forum useful or is it just window dressing?

Aga Khan: We can avoid misunderstandings by having such a forum
where people from different faiths consult each other so they understand what
really affects them. Once you have committed an offense all you can do is to
try and reverse it. Anyone who knows the faith of Islam, for example, would
have known that the caricatures of the Prophet were
profoundly offensive to all Muslims.

SPIEGEL: Again, this whole affair was misused by radical Islamists. They
added caricatures much more offensive than the original ones to incite the
masses.

Aga Khan: But I am told that there was an internal debate between
the editors of that publication and they actually knew what they were doing.
They took a risk and somebody should have said to them, Why
get into that situation? Now we are talking about civility, which is a
completely different concept. If we are talking about civility in a pluralist
society, then how do you develop that notion of civility, particularly where
there is ignorance. And that's the thing that's worrying.
And that's why I get frustrated when I see these situations that go on and on
and on. Because I'm not willing to believe that they are all
inspired by evil intent.

SPIEGEL: Provocative, sad and distasteful. But the freedom of the press is
one of the highest values in our democracy. We have to balance one thing
against the other and we will allow non-believers to express even outrageous
opinions.

Aga Khan: I think that you are now referring to one of the most
difficult problems that we have and I don't know the answer. The industrialized
West is highly secularized; the Muslim world is much less secularized and that
stems largely from the nature of the faith of Islam, which you know and I know
has an intrinsic meshing with everyday life. And that is a scenario where people of goodwill need to think very, very carefully.

SPIEGEL: In some of your speeches you mentioned Kemal
Atatürk in a positive context. Turkey followed
his path and is one of the very few countries with a predominant Muslim
population where there is separation of church and state. Would you like to see
others go the same way?

Aga Khan: I am not opposed to secularism as such. But I am opposed
to unilateral secularism where the notions of faith and ethics just disappear
from society.

SPIEGEL: Your Highness, we thank you for this interview.

Interview conducted by Stefan Aust and
Erich Follath.