Session Start: Wed May 02 17:51:20 2007 Session Ident: #tatchat * Now talking in #tatchat 12Mary, I met some nice ladies from Oregon at Shuttlebirds Wow, so many folks! Good evening! 10Hi Mimi help tatter get on lol 12Hi Mimi Hi Babs, what other name do I know you by? It's a full house! Hi Mimi. I will really need help tonight. 12Pauline Ely 12the baby tatter in Tooele 10Pauline - do you have a brother named Paul or a sister Pricilla? 12Nope. But I have six other siblings.:) Did I meet you at Shuttlebirds this time? My class rosters are upstairs. 12Nope. Cluny is doable, but I'm still getting my splits down Well I hope we can help you here then. 12May I say, Mimi, you have the nicest smile. "Tatter" can you tell me who you are and what help you need? * Tatter528 has joined #tatchat I'm so happy when I'm in Spokane... who can stop smiling with all those tatters around?? 06brb 10I'm just green with envy unbecoming 12So true. 03I am Mary Page and I need to Type/nick my name. As for tatting, I think I do the SCMR on a needle. I need to learn how to do chain and ring without the SCMR. * Tatter082 has joined #tatchat * Tatter968 has joined #tatchat I hope Katia comes, she's the best at explaining that part for needle tatters. * Tatter082 is now known as ukbrithoosier As for the nick, did you try changing it yet? Hello all. Hi Pat! Hi Pat, welcome 10Hi! 03I have no idea what that means or how to do it. 06back Well if you give me 2 sec Mimi ill change my nick * Tatter528 is now known as Katia Good evening everyone 10Hi Katia! Hi Katia hi! Alot of people tonight how nice * Tatter228 has joined #tatchat Do you see the little white box under the words "Change Nick to" 03I keep clicking on "Change nick to" but nothing is happening. Click your mouse in that box. You won't see a cursor unfortunately 03Mary But you can type your name - nd press the Enter key on your keyboard * Tatter968 is now known as Honeybee Hi Melissa Hi 03Is that ok? The name next to your messages to the class will change to Mary from Tatter when it "takes" 02I have changed my color in case that green was too lite. * Tatter228 is now known as Mimitest * Mimitest has quit IRC (Quit: Tatters 4 forever!) to change your name type /nick (youname) Thanks Katia that might work better for Mary * Tatter is now known as Mary 02Did that work? BTW Mary is a needletatter and will need some help progressing from the needle tatted ring (as tatters say SCMR) to doing chains and true rings 10Yeah! Yay MAry! yes I'm glad you could make it Katia so that maybe you can help her after class. I do needle to, Mary! First though let's all sign in. that sound great ... give me a few minute Mimi so i can get into the english mood for teaching MIMI DILLMAN, SNOHOMISH, WA ntrop@ix.netcom.com 10Beverly June Davis Silver City, NM beeloyal1@aol.com LOL Katia Patti Jones, Columbus, Ohio, patti111@yahoo.com Katia Vallée Sherbrooke QC Canada lady_elhasa@hotmail.com 06Sara Randall, Skowhegan, ME, sara_randall1@hotmail.com A Quebecoise in an Englis Mood sounds scary :) 12Pauline Ely, Tooele, UT babsbrooktatting@hotmail.com 02Mary Page Eugene Oregon ohansunta@hotmail.com Pat Scher, Huntington, IN. mikeandpm@onlyinternet.net im serious just got back of a 3 hour drive just to be in time here OK Pauline you were with Julie aka Angeltoes! Now I know where Tooele is 12Yep, Julie is my new friend THE LESSON TONIGHT IS http://www.angelfire.com/planet/newtatters/lesson3.html HAS EVERYONE HAD A CHANCE TO READ IT OVER? 10y yep Yes 02no 12yes 06yes 12practice, no MARY YOU MIGHT WANT TO OPEN A NEW BROWSER WINDOW AND EITHER READ OVER OR PRINT OUT THE LESSON THE FIRST PART IS ABOUT JOINS LET ME FIRST APOLOGIZE RFOR THE "SHUTTLE JOIN" MENTION. A BETTER NAME IS LOCK JOIN THAT WAY IT INCLUDES NEEDLE TATTERS TOO :) This may sound silly but is there a certain direction to load the shuttle? :) * Tatter has joined #tatchat 06nope AROUND THE POST EITHER CLOCKWISE OR COUNTERCLOCKWISE IS OK I GENERALLY LOAD COUNTERCLOCKWISE THEN I LEAVE THE SHUTTLE THREAD HANGING OUT AT THE 5PM POSITION (IF YOU'RE LOOKING FROM THE TOP) I'M A RIGHT-HANDED TATTER BTW THAT KEEPS THE THREAD OUT OF MY WAY BUT I'VE SEEN OTHER TATTERS PERFECTLY HAPPY WITH THE THREADS COMING OUT IN OTHER POSTIIONS I'm right handed too 06I'm a rightie too. * Tatter is now known as Lillian FOR LEFT HANDED IT AT THE 7 PM POSITION 10Hi Lillian AND THEIR TATTING LOOKS SAME AS OR BETTER THAN MINE SO IT'S WHERE YOU'RE COMFORTABLE THAT'S BEST YES MIMI I TAT BOTH HANDS 12As I was tatting today and loaded my shuttle "incorrectly" is seemed to slow me down WELCOME LILLIAN, PLEASE SIGN IN WITH NAME, CITY AND EMAIL ADDRESS I can't join today =( cuz i have so much to do but Melissa reminded me and I will plan for next week. I am going to read later I did that before mimi where do i do that? I FIND THAT IF I LOAD MY SHUTTLE INCORRECTLY I'M HAPPIER WORKING WITH THE SHUTTLE TURNED AROUND THAN I AM WITH THE THREAD IN THE WRONG PLACE IS THAT STRANGE OR WHAT?? I really dont know my street address since I live in Korea =) 12That's what I do also but i do have a phone number giggle giggle 10I use an Aero shuttle so I can load bobbin either way, really. lol KOREA, WOW, IT'S 10 AM FOR YOU. yup RIGHT BJ, IT'S EASIER TO CORRECT THE ERROR WHEN YOU USE A BOBBIN SHUTTLE. THOSE OF US WITH POSTS HAVE MORE TROUBLE :) SO THE LESSON IS http://www.angelfire.com/planet/newtatters/lesson3.html IF YOU WANT TO LOOK, LILLIAN MEANTIME, JOINS LILIAN ARE YOU A SHUTTLE OR NEEDLE Tatter 10Well, I actually use both 02I have tried several times to get the window up to see the lesson, but it is not working. I have read in the past and will keep up the best I can. WE'VE ALL BEEN DOING THE STANDARD JOIN WHEN TATTING OK MARY BUT IN SOME CASES, WHEN WE APPROACH A JOIN, THE CORE THREAD IS NEXT TO HTE PICOT, NOT THE BALL THREAD THAT PRESENTS A DILEMMA BECAUSE TO MAKE A NICE JOIN YOU CAN'T CROSS THE CORE THREAD AND BALL THREAD. shuttle and need to learn needle SO ... YOU'LL HAVE TOMAKE THE JOIN WITH THE CORE THREAD (CORE = SHUTTLE THREAD OR NEEDLE THREAD) OK THANKS LILLIAN i am sorry- but I am going to lurk and take care of other things if that is okay i will join next week for sure thanks for this great class and opportunity THAT'S FINE LILLIAN I was shown the 5 position and like it too I'm loading now thanks so much! IT FINE LILLIAN until next week MEANTIME HAS EVERYONE HAD A CHANCE TO TRY A LOCK JOIN? bye 06not yet 10y BYE LILLIAN TAKE CARE Yes 10bye Lillian ty THEY MIGHT LOOK A BIT STRANGE AT FIRST yeah, but I have a hard time getting them to close the same way all the time. AFTER ALL YOU'RE EFFECTIVELY TYING A KNOT ON THE PICOT TO BET THEM AS CLOSE TO THE WORK AS YOU CAN YOU'LL NEED TO TIGHTEN THE KNOT CAREFULLY I SNUG THE CHAIN FIRST THEN PULL THE CORE THREAD LOOP THROUGH THE PICOT LAST I PUT MY "TATTING IMPLEMENT" THROUGH THE LOOP I haven't tried the lock join yet but want too AND WHILE KEEPING THE TENSION, PULL UP MY TATTING IMPLEMENT UNTIL THE KNOT TIGHTENS I PULL MY TATTING IMPLEMENT TOWARD THE LEFT (REMEMBER WORK IS GOING LEFT/RIGHT) WHEN TIGHTENING THAT HELPS KEEP THE KNOT CLOSER TO THE WORK IT DOES TAKE SOME PRACTICE BUT YOU'LL LIKE THE RESULTS IF YOU FIND YOU'RE DOING THINGS LIKE THE "CLASSIC ROSETTE" http://www.georgiaseitz.com/classes/springideas.html THAT'S GEORGIA SEITZ' PET NAME FOR A FLOWER MADE TOTALLY OF A CHAIN THAT SPIRALS OUTWARD FROM THE CENTER LIKE ON THAT WEB PAGE (IGNORE THE BEADS FOR NOW IF YOU LIKE) EACH OF THOSE JOINS ARE LOCK JOINS BECAUSE THE CORE THREAD OF THE CHAIN IS WHAT GETS ATTACHED TOT HE PICOT BELOW DOES THAT MAKE SENSE? 10oh before I forget did you get the new jpeg of my homework? ANY QUEXSTIONS? YES BJ WE DID ;) YES BJ AMAZING YOU'VE BEEN SO BUSY! i'M VERY PROUD OF YOU, YOUR WORK LOOKS VERY NICE INDEED 10well blush 10I have a question. YES 10ahhh a flase picot is just a small length of thread - right? 10I was thinking, when I did the rosette the first time, it was just a very tiny picot - I didn't get it! "FLASE"? * Honeybee has quit IRC (Quit: Tatters 4 forever!) YES A FALSE PICOT IS A SMALL SPACE OF THREAD THE SIZE OF THE PICOT * Tatter has joined #tatchat If you use beads, you can just use the lenght of the bead, right? THANKS KATIA I'M SLOW TONIGHT 10yeah, false picot I brought it up because a newbie might make the same mistake I did lol 06I hate to admit it, but during the year and a half since I learned to tat, I still don't know how to do a flase picot. :( NEEDLE TATTERS CAN, PATTI, YES... SHUTTLE TATTERS WILL HAVE A LITTLE MORE DIFFICULTY WITH THE BEADS AS SHOWN IN THAT ROSETTE YES pATTI YOU CAN WE'LL DO FALSE PICOTS IN LESSON 4 SARA, NO WORRIES 12Oh. I learned to tat with Rozella Linden's book _Easy Tatting_. You'll learn why you have false/mock picots.:) 06Good! :) DONT WORRY FOR BEING SLOW MIMI IM IN A TATTING TEACHING MOOD SINCE 9 AM THIS MORNING THANKS FOR THE RECOMMENDATION PAULINE, THAT'S AN EASY BOOK TO FIND AND A GOOD RESOURCE * Tatter is now known as Honeybee 06I have that book! Ijust haven't read it yet! lol NOW A GOOD REASON :) WELCOME BACK HONEYBEE SO I GUESS LOCK JOINS ARE BEATEN TO DEATH... HOW ABOUT THE NEXT JOIN? WE'VE CALLED IT THE "FOLD OVER JOIN" 10Also, Georgia S book Tatting Talk has pagesin the back on needle tatting 06okay 10okay THIS REFERS TO THAT PESKY JOIN THAT'S THE LAST ONE WHEN YOU'RE TRYING TO CONNECT OUTWARD FACING RINGS 10the fold over seemed hard to me http://www.georgiaseitz.com/newtat/join1.gif I HAVE TROUBLE WITH IT TOO BJ. BUT WHEN I PULL OUT TAMMY'S EXPLANATION AT http://www.georgiaseitz.com/newtat/join1.gif I GENERALLY CAN GET THROUGH IT AND ON TO THE REST OF THE PIECE I had to redo my first fold over join about 5 times until I got it right! 06It's not that bad once it finally sinks in! lol That's the one I had trouble with too. 10The story of my life constructing and re constructing FREQUENTLY I'LL CLIMB OUT TO THE NEXT ROUND WITH A SPLIT RING SO I CAN AVOID IT (STAY TUNED FOR LESSON 4!) RETRO TATTING = UNTATTING 10ROTFL WE RETROTAT A LOT WHEN LEARNING AND EVEN AFTER LEARNING!! 02AMEN 10_ I tend to be a perfectionist Thats what I'm good at!!! 06I wish I had a dollar for every time I had to retro tat! 10wow - i'd be rich MY MAIN RECOMMENDATION FOR FOLD OVER JOINS IS TO FOLLOW THIS DIAGRAM TO THE LETTER 10k PAYING ATTENTION TO WHERE SHE SAYS UNDER AND OVER IT SEEMS LIKE MAGIC BUT IT WORKS. IN CASE YOU WANT TO PRACTICE THIS JOIN - AND THE NEXT ITEM IN THE LESSON - THERE'S A GREAT PATTERN HERE http://www.georgiaseitz.com/roundrobin/newbiesroundrobin.html I THINK IT'S A VERY PRETTY MOTIF Guess thats my main thing to practice this week! OK... READY FOR RINGS OFF CHAINS? 10;y 12yes 06yes Is the center done with the thread cut of the ball? THAT ONE IS FUN FOR NEEDLE TATTER :) 10go slowly I'm thick Yes, I'm happier with that one. THAT'S THE OTHER THING YOU'LL NEED TO KNOW HOW TO DO WHEN DOING THE MOTIF IT'S UP TO YOU PATTI 10what's the name of the motif for those of us who can't get split screen lesson up YOU CAN DO REGULAR RINGS OR SINGLE-THREAD RINGS, WHICHEVER YOU LIKE THE LOOK OF BEST I can't get that many rings in the center when I work off the ball GEORGIA CALLS IT TATTERS ROUND ROBIN FOR BEGINNERS 10oh ok I read that Everything starts looking like clovers. MIGHT HAVE TO SQUISH THE RINGS A BIT TO MAKE THEM LONG AND SKINNY PATTI pATTI DO THE RING WITH THE THREAD CUT OFF THE BALL ITS GOING TO BE EASIER OK... RINGS OFF CHAINS. DO YOU WNAT TO EXPLAIN HOW TO FOR NEEDLE TATTERS, KATIA SURE FOR NEEDLE TATTER YOU NEED TO CUT THE TREAD OFF THE BALL SINCE WE ARE GOING TO USE BOTH END OF THE THREAD TO DO THE RING (TRUE RING ) REMEMBER THAT YOU NEED A LONG THREAD ON THE SIDE THAT IS SUPOSED TO BE THE BALL THIS IS FOR NEEDLE TATTERS ONLY NOT SHUTTLE TATTER YOU START TO TAT YOUR CHAIN UP TO THE POINT TO MAKE THAT FLOATING HANGING RNG , YOU TAKE SOME TAKE ANOTHER NEEDLE OR UNTHREAD THE NEEDLE THERE WORKING WITH... IF YOU UN THREAD YOUR NEEDLE YOU NEED TO PULL THE FIRST PART OF THE CHAIN IN PLACE RETHREAD THE NEEDLE WITH THE WORKING THREAD( OTHER SIDE ) AND WORK YOUR RING ON THAT NEEDLE WITH THAT SAME THREAD CLOSE THE RING UNTHREAD THE NEEDLE , RETHREAD THE OTHER SIDE AND FINISH THE CHAIN DOES THAT MAKE ANY SENSE ? How do you close the first part of the chain when you cut the thread off of the ball? 02Yes. I do the SCMR to reverse the work. Which is what the true ring is effectively doing. Right? YOU USUALLY CUT THE THREAD BEFORE YOU START WORKING , THEN YOULL START TATTING AT THE MIDDLE OF BOTH ENDS 06Yippe! I just did my first SCMR! (That goes to show how far behind I am!!!) MARY THERE IS 2 TYPE OF RING IN TATTING THE TRUE RING (SHUTTLE STYLE) AND THE FALSE RING OR MOCK RING I still can't get just a chain. It keeps closing into a ring. 02I have only tried using the needle. Though once good enough, I want to learn to use the shuttle. WHAT I JUST EXPLAIN IS FOR TRUE RING * Sara is now known as Sara-Shuttle PATTI WHEN YOU DO YOUR CHAIN DONT TURN THE THREAD LIKE I TAUGHT YOU FOR THE RING KATIA, I THINK I READ SOMEONE SAYING THEY THROW RINGS OFF CHAINS BY CASTING ON STITCHES FOR A CHAIN UP TO WHERE THE STANDING UP RING WILL BE THEN PULLING THROUGH THE CHAIN AT THAT POINT * Sara-Shuttle is now known as Sara-S THEN DOING SCMR WITH RING ABOVE THE CHAIN (NOT REVERSE WORK AT ALL) Thanks Katia, that would fix it. THEN GO BACK TO MAKING A CHAIN SEEMS TO ME THAT MIGHT BE TWISTY?? MAYBE I REMEMBERED THAT WRONG? THAT IS ANOTHER WAY MIMI IF YOUR WORKING ONLY WITH SCMR 06I don't know if this is helpful to you guys, but Tammy used to have us add a S or an N to help others see if you are learning to tat with a needle or a shuttle. HOW DO YOU KEEP THE CHAIN IN THE NICE ARC LIKE IN THE PATTERN WHEN YOU INTERRUPT LIKE THAT THANKS SARA, THAT IS VERY HELPFUL TO US TEACHERS 02Mimi, I do have trouble keeping from twisting. I have to keep right and wrong sides clear. 06to our nick names I mean. WITH THE TRUE RING MIMI OR THE SCMR? * Honeybee is now known as Honeybee-S 02Mary-N IF YOU DO BOTH ADD B * Gardeniapatti is now known as Gardeniapatti-N LOL and I just did my first shuttle join 06Yes, I think Tammy had that as an option too. * Mary is now known as Mary-N NICE HONEYBEE I do both but am concentrating on shuttle for this class WITH SCMRS THROWN OFF SCMRS ARE MADE WITH THE CORE THREAD OF THE CHAIN which one's the core thread the shuttle? YOU KNOW ME, I'M TOTALLY FANATICAL ABOUT NOT INTERRUPTING THE CORE THREAD :) 02I believe that IS what I do. CORE THREAD IS THE NEEDLE THREAD FOR NEEDLE TATTERS AND SHUTTLE THREAD FOR SHUTTLE TATTERS YOUR NOT WITH THE CORE THREAD MIMI USE A 2ND NEEDLE FOR THE SCMR - ON WHAT WAS THE BALL THREAD?? IS THAT WHAT YOU'D DO WITH THE TRUE RING YOUR ONLY DOING YOUR DS WITH THE WORKING THREAD AND THAT WORKING THREAD ALSO BECOME THE CORE THREAD FOR THE RING YES MIMI 10because you pull it through? AH, SILLY ME, STILL SLOW TONIGHT THANKS KATIA FOR SHUTTLE TATTERS I REALLY NEED TO FIND MORE TIME TO GET SOME INFO FOR NEEDLE TATTERS YOU'LL NEED A 2ND SHUTTLE TO THROW RINGS OFF THE TOP OF YOUR CHAINS AND PUT IT ON THE WEB EEK!! NOT 2 SHUTTLES!! REALLY, 2 SHUTTLE TATTING IS NOT THAT BAD 10I LIKE 2 shuttles ONCE YOU GET USED TO THE IDEA THAT ONE SHUTTLE MIGHT BE A BALL SOMETIMES SO WHEN YOU START THE CHAIN BEFORE THE RING 02You guys are Fantastic!!! I could not keep up if I were you teaching. YOU'LL NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT THE BALL THREAD IS ON A SHUTTLE AND PUT SHUTTLE 2'S THREAD OVER YOUR HAND WHERE THE BALL THREAD WOULD BE TAT THE CHAIN UP TO THE POSITION OF THAT RING I haven't tried 2 shuttles yet THEN - EEK! LEAVE SHUTTLE 1 HANGING AND IGNORE IT PICK UP SHUTTLE 2 AND MAKE A NORMAL RING MAKE SURE THE BUTT OF THAT RING IS CLOSE TO THE LAST DS OF THE CHAIN 10It is easier if one marks their shuttles in some way before they begin! OTHERWISE YOU'LL HAVE THE HEARTBREAK OF GAPSOSIS :) AFTER YOU CLOSE THE RING AT FIRST BUT WHEN YOU HAVE PRACTICE ALOT YOU WONT NEED TO MARKE THEM * ukbrithoosier is now known as ukbrithoosiI PUT SHUTTLE 2'S THREAD BACK OVER YOUR LEFT HAND AS IF IT WERE A BALL THREAD AGAIN PICK UP LITTLE OLD IGNORED SHUTTLE 1 AND CONTINUE THE CHAIN * ukbrithoosiI is now known as ukbrithoosier SHUTTLE 1'S THREAD WILL STILL BE INSIDE THE CHAIN 10thus....core thread AND YOU SHOULD STILL BE ABLE TO TENSION THE ENTIRE CHAIN BY PULLING ON SHUTTLE 1 EXACTLY BJ Sorry my dog jumped up DID THE SHUTTLE TATTERS FOLLOW? 10yes Yes 06yes THUS ARMED WITH LOCK JOINS, FOLD OVER JOINS, AND RINGS OFF CHAINS, YOU CAN MAKE THIS MOTIF ANY OTHER QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT WE'VE TALKED ABOUT SO FAR ? 10I kinda moved on to lesson four's work I'm doing a split ring cross from Kuhn PATTI AND MARY ANY QUESTION FOR NEEDLE ? I've got a chain and the ring, but I can't get the second part of the chain. It turns into a ring too. 06good for you BJ! 02No, I am anxious to try lessons one through three. Thank you so much. 10I saw a site devoted to needle tatting the other day when I was surfing. Goodgle it - perhaps NEEDLETATTINGTOO IS WHERE I LOOK WHEN I CAN'T FIND KATIA :)) PATTI DID YOU RETHREAD THE FIRST SIDE? 10Well, split rings are hard for me and Kuhns instructions are good and I like all of the patterns. They are all split rings and chains I don't think I did any rethreading. JUST SEND A EMAIL MIMI ;) AND IM ALWAYS LOG ON AIM That must be where I messed up. 02I will be trying the true ring, though I think I will buy another set of needles so I can do the two-needle thing with needles of the same size. YOU LL NEED TO RETHREAD I'm doing the rosette right now YES 2 NEEDLE IS A MUST JUST LIKE 2 SHUTTLE FOR SHUTTLE TATTER GOOD JOB MELISSA, YOU'RE PROVING ME RIGHT THAT YOU COULD JUMP RIGHT IN (I SO LOVE TO BE RIGHT :)) 10two shuttles ha ha They seem to 'multiply' LOL UH OH WE'VE ALREADY GOT MARY INTO ANOTHER SET OF NEEDLES HEE HEE. THEY MULTIPLY NEARLY AS QUICKLY AS SHUTTLES 10teehee HMMM NEEDLE ALSO SEAM TO DO THE SAME NOT SURE WHY THOUGH ;) 12I like two shuttles,then my ball doesn't run away 10lol GOOD IDEA PAULINE 02Well, I have nearly worn out my #7 anyway. EASIER TO TRAVEL I know. I have a few now. NOW THE NEXT PART OF THE LESSON IS THREAD ENDS WE HAD THE CHANCE TO DISCUSS THESE EARLIER BUT FEWER STUDENTS WERE AROUND oh I have troubles I tried the Lily's way THE MAIN THING FOR AVOIDING ENDS TO SEW IN: START YOUR PROJECT WITH THE BALL CONNECTED TO THE SHUTTLE/NEEDLE CONTINUOUSLY NOT CUT OFF but it seemed too tight TOO TIGHT? 06CTM is soooo wonderful! 10yes! DID YOU TUG ON THE THREAD END AFTER WEAVING THE NEEDLE BETWEEN STITCHES? 06I read old patterns that tell you to cut, hen tie again! lol me? I couldn't even get the needle to thread it throught to even try tugging it CTM = CONTINUOUS THREAD METHOD. NOT SURE WHO MADE THAT NAME UP BUT IT'S STUCK IN OUR JARGON INTERESTING. I CAN ALWAYS PUSH A TAPESTRY NEEDLE THROUGH (NOT TATTING NEEDLE - TAPESTRY) AND I TAT PRETTY TIGHTLY could I have tatted too tightly? MAKE SURE IT'S UNDER THE STITCH CAP tapestry is way too thick I MEAN PUTTIN GTHE NEEDLE UNDER THE STITCH CAP SIZE 26/28 ARE MY MAIN ONES- NOT VERY THICK TRY A BEADING NEEDLE IF YOU TRY TO PUSH IT FURTHER DOWN YOU PUT IT THROUGH THE CORE THREAD ah beading needle oh but then the thread is too thick NOT ONLY IS THAT TOUGH TO DO IT DOESN'T ALLOW THE THREAD END TO GET SNUGGED UP UNDER AND INSIDE THE STITCH CAPS INTERESTING DILEMMA MELISSA I HAVEN'T COME ACROSS IT BEFORE LOL BEFORE I LEARNED LILY'S WAY I USED TO USETHE TAPESTRY NEEDLE OT PULL THE STITCH LEGS DOWN AND GET MY NEEDLE INSIDE TO FOLLOW THE CORE THREAD THAT REALLY PULLED MY TATTING OUT OF SHAPE I've done that with the needle tatting but with the shuttle tatting it's so tight BUT I GOT THE THREAD END INSIDE :) EITHER WAY YOU'LL NEED TO PUT THE NEEDLE THROUGH TO ONE SIDE ONLY THEN PULL THE THREAD ALL THE WAY THROUGH BEFORE TRYING TO GET THE NEEDLE BACK INTO THE WORK PLEASE TRY AGAIN TO WIGGLE IT IN BUT NOT PIERCE ANY THREADS MELISA ARE YOU SURE WHEN YOU DO LILY`S WAY YOU PUT YOUR NEEDLE IN THE CAP OF THE DS ? MAYBE YOU'LL FIND THAT IT WILL SLIDE I don't know I'll have to try again LILY'S METHOD: http://www.frontiernet.net/~TammyRodgers/lilys_way.html BUT THERE ARE OTHER WAYS TO AVOID ENDS TATTING OVER TAILS FOR INSTANCE I do still have some ends to hide on a motif THAT MEANS PULLING IN THREAD ENDS INTO THE CORE OF THE WORK AS YOU GO I FIND THAT I PREFER TO "AIM" WHERE TO TIE IN NEW THREADS