Session Start: Wed Jun 07 17:54:10 2006 Session Ident: #tatchat * Now talking in #tatchat * Topic is '' * Set by ChanServ on Wed Jun 07 17:37:43 Good evening ladies! hi mary with the rings being color 1 and chain being color 2? hi mimi well the pattern I used had outer rings (color) and inner chains and rings (White) it was the rings in the white that gave me the problem or "outer and inner rings? this wasnt the awarness ribbon then.... which pattern? it's one that I got from a friend's grandmother lol it's a book mark is it online? It's one of Jan's bookmarks...let me get the link to the picture my gues is it is a "thrown off ring" you are having problems with and we can help with that :) I don't think so, not the way Jan described it to me http://www.yesteryeardesign.com/tatting.htm It's bookmark # 2 on the bottom of the page She gave me permission to use her family design for learning :-) That one is very pretty! lol let me guess too ambitious for a newbie? i agree Not too ambitious in single color, or as chains one color, rings another what I think you described is more ambitious You're a needle tatter, right? I was able to make one of the outside clusters and one set of the inner chains and rings, then another outside cluster mary why were you doing the rings different colors? but then got stuck on the 2nd set of chains and rings.... learning both needle and shuttle Mary, were you trying to get a striped effect, sort of center as white and the outside as colored? the outside clusters I was doing in a varigated color, the inside chains and rings I was doing in white if you want some of the rings the chain color, you would need to have both set as needle threads...... alot of adding new threads That's right Anita. And lots of SLT (shoe lace tricks) to get the threads in correct position. I'd recommend shuttle if you can. so just the rings with the decrative picots in color..... rest in white? that's where I had trouble...couldn't figure out how to hold the thread to make the white rings in the middle.. it didn't seem to work when I held it around the fingers the normal way with shuttle or needle? shuttle you may need slt to get the red or white thread in the proper position ok... next question.... was the white on the top or bottom ie comming out of your last element in all honesty I don't remember ok... try it again and remember the thread on top is always your "wrapping" thread I have some problems with that too...the RW and stuff...cause when I close rings they aren't upright with the close at the bottom, they are sideways lol ie the color you will see I had no problem getting the white to be the wrapping thread, just when I wrapped it didn't work..didn't make a ring ended up being a chain like it was backwards or something Then you didn't bring the thread all the way to your pinch before starting tatting. You'll use the white thread the whole time. Does that make sense? no ok but you will still need to wrap the white thread around your hand cause it was at the pinch as any other ring I did that Anita Were you tatting with the white thread shuttle, or the red thread shuttle? The red thread shuttle should dangle if you're making a white ring (red not in use at all) The color was on the shuttle and the white did the flip it wasn't the colors that were backwards ah ha!!!! it was the way the thread went lol we know what you did then :) That's the problem. Ifyou do that, you'll have to make it a SCMR like in needle tatting It's better to make a true ring, then your color won't show through. that's the problem, it doesn't make a ring... the thread wrapping around the hand doesn't make a ring it's starts and goes around then ends at the pinch mary in doing a ring you use the shuttle that is attached to your working thread but doesn't connect ie you will use the white shuttle to get a white ring the red shutttle to get a red ring do you understand what i mean? that's backwards the color on the shuttle isn't the one that flips so it's the other color that the ring ends up being no but in doing a ring you are not using the second color only the color of the ring itself one sec and i will get you a good diag what if you're only using one shuttle and the white is on the ball? Brenda, are you following any of this? Did we lose you? It's not on the lesson, but might be of interest to you? Mary, then you'd have to do a SCMR. to get the white ring, that is. sorry, I didn't mean to hijack class time I did a little shuttle years ago trying to learn so i am following her problem ok ok then how do you do a SCMR with a shuttle OK good then it's not a total "hijack" :) mary please dont worry about asking questions :) I needle tatt and would like to know when you throw off the ring if it is a true ring or a SCMR I am confused on that I'll get you the shuttle link for SCMR. It's really easy - you leave a loop of shuttle thread hanging before doing the chain so that you can pass the shuttle through that loop and pull the ring closed. if you're doing multiple colors, it may leave a small dab of color on the bottom (that's why I like the true ring and 2 shuttles better) brb SCMR for shuttle tatters: http://www.geocities.com/gr8shuttles/scmrinstr2.html I hope that helps, Mary? http://www.geocities.com/gr8shuttles/scmrinstr.html click this one first, sorry. that is, if you find you're lost when first looking at the scmrinstr2 link. Anita, you may have to help me about true ring vs. normal ring... The best use for true ring I know of in needle tatting is for single-thread tatting You may also find ti more convenient for 2-needle tatting with colors ok but doesn't that then create the same problem as doing 2 colors in needle tatting? leaving a spot of color at the base of rings and ends of chains? Exactly, Mary! I think you've got it! That's why Anita and I started with true-ring type questions first but how do I fix it !? unless you use 2 shuttles you will always have this spot of color it is normal and part of the look of this type of tatting Right, wiht the 2nd shuttle you always have a shuttle available to make a true ring of the proper color (or with the 2nd needle you always have the color you need available for a true ring) so there's no way to have clean colors without using 2 shuttles or 2 needles? true ring = wrap the working thread around your hand and back to the pinch, then form the ds's with the thread over the hand over the needle oer shuttle with the same color correct mary so mary its not just you ;) lol and for needle tatting? true ring vs scmr? true rings will give you the look you want but again you would need to work as though you had to needles rethreading rather than off the ball I think we missed a question from Brenda in among all my stuff I talked a bit about how to tell when a true ring is better. Maybe you can add more? sorry brenda you could do either for a thrown off ring * Tatter has joined #tatchat * MaryR has quit IRC (Connection reset by peer) * Tatter is now known as MaryR though personally i prefer true rings as i can tighten the chain nicer hmmm got bumped out hmmmmm normally you get bumped if you were quiet too long.......... my connection has been crappy lately what if i wanted to throw off the rings in a second color would I SLT then? brb.... have to get a kid a snack Correct Brenda. <--- back in listening mode, thanks for the help, I'll try it again with 2 shuttles/needles ok back OK. How are you Brenda, ready to progress to Lesson 3, or are there more true ring questions? my questions were Lesson 3 ha ha brenda just make sure your chain is shapped properly before you do the SLT you wont be able to change it afterward So did you both read Lesson 3? I skimmed it over yes, I think I need to invest in a second needle so I don't have to keep rethreading though. If you like color, a 2nd needle is not a bad idea :) Lesson 3 is usuall an eye-opener for needle tatters The lock join is a foreign concept in needle tatting in what way? you can pass your needle holding core thread through the picot shuttle tatters can't do that! But! What shuttle tatters have found out is that the lock join helps to get a certain effect in tatting like you see in the classic rosette http://www.georgiaseitz.com/classes/springideas.html (ignore the beads for now) By making a lock join at each joining instead of normal join, the chains can be made nice and arched. And when you make the next chain and tension it, it doesn't pull out of shape I mean, that tensioning of the 2nd chain doesn't pull the first chain out of shape like it would if there were no "lock" between So I'd recommend you experiment and see what I mean, try a classic rosette in your tatting. doesn't using the SLT have the same effect? If you're doing color, that would hcange colors but yes, it could have the samae effect gotcha in single color needle tatters can still do a lock join..... just have to use a crochet hook to pull the thread up through the picot first In 2 color, the little knot will be visible unfortunately just like shuttle tatters, would, pull a loop of the chain's core thread through the picot, then pass needle (or shuttle) through Take care when tightening. It's easy to get gapsosis (gasp!!) Did we talk about gapsosis yet? no Gapsosis is the disease of having an unplanned bare thread <<<<-------- guilty of this one lol Such as between elements Happens to us all, even us old fogies so you have to carefully pull up the core thread (shuttle or needle) Georgia recomments angling it to the left when tightening lol i am only 33....... only my kids think i qualify as old ;) to make sure the knot doesn't come loose and leave a bare thread or wobbly chain I'm 42... old!! lol not that old mimi :) Tell that to my skin :) Any other questions about lock joins before you give them a try later? ok looking at this lock join illustration...it seems to me to be the same as joining that we've been doing...what's the difference? shuttelwise I mean You're doing it with the shuttle thread, not hte one from over your hand lock join you will pull up the core thread ok, gotcha regular join is normally the wrapping thread pulled up Because it's the core (shuttle) thread, that locks up the work before it, no more sliding, nada ok that makes sense The next bizarre join is what we've called the folded join It's the maneuver you have to do when joining the last ring to the first ring of a flower of outward facing rings That is, if you want to avoid having a twisted join at that point. This one is really hard to describe It's easier to demonstrate in person But Tammy did a nice diagram that we have linked to the lesson. The main thing to remember is, follow the diagrams exactly including orientation of your work. I usually unfold and check how the join looks after tatting the last DS of the ring but before pulling it tight and pay CLOSE attention to the direction the threads are going in the diagrams!!!! That way, if I got mixed up and goofed, I can retro-tat back to the join (un-tat) and try again I don't much like pulling out true rings :) is there anyone who does :) hehe I don't enjoy it but I've sure learned how to do it ! LOL Mary that's cute lol mary i have always just cut them out.... so you are doing better than me OK, before we talk about that cute round-robin doily center, let's talk about rings thrown off chains i just dont have the patience to untat them You can tell a ring has been thrown off the top of a chain because the core thread of the chain is undisturbed (so these will naturally be the same color as the chain - you'll have to work hard for a different color) These are found in a lot of antique patterns, so I introduced them here. What happens is that you start a chain Then drop the shuttle or needle that is at the core of the chain Without reversing your work, you pick up the other thread (on needle or shuttle, can't use the ball here without significant trouble) And tat the ring. This will be a true ring (you only have the one thread to work with) Then you can put the thread coming out of this ring back into position to be the auxiliary thread (over the hand for shuttle or casting onto the needle) and pick up the thread that was in the core of hte chain and continue the chain. In the example in the lesson: http://www.georgiaseitz.com/roundrobin/newbiesroundrobin.html If I can see my core color through the chain does that mean i am not pulling the chain tight enough or is it usual to see the core color (by the way, that center needs a fold-over join to complete it) Not tight enough Brenda The chains in the 2nd round all have 3 rings thrown off That means it takes 3 times of dropping the core thread and picking up the auxiliary one to finally finish the chain! But is'nt the result rpetty? rrr, pretty? lol :-) Thhis one is kind of an extreme example. Usually it's only 1. But the concept is the same For some, it comes naturally; others find it a mental block Give it a try, you'll like the flexibility in choosing patterns Any questions? all good so far so when the chain joines the centre picot that is a lock join? yes Exactly Brenda, Good job spotting where it needs to lock! ok how do you spot that? You'll get that nice tight "V" between the chains with the lock - otherwise it flattens considerably, and you'll have trouble with the previous chain tightening when you tension the one you're doing If you don't lock, I'll mean V? ok I'm lost mary i always find that if the join is under a chain i do a lock join the 'bumps' on the chain are on the opposite side from the picot I am joining to. if the join is to the top of a chain or ring i do a regular join The "V" I refer to is the shape of the chains heading to/from the join in this pattern ie you pull through wichever thread is closest to the picot you are joining to Also, there was a clue in the written pattern for the need for lock join: she calls for a shuttle join, which is another name for lock join : ) Why do you say a fold over join is needed for the centre? I just used on needle to do the rings and then tied the ends together to close the ring of rings? How does the last join look between teh first ring and the last ring? If it looks like the other joins, great! But if it's twisted, you can try the fold over join to avoid it shuttle tatters will need the fold over join unless they like pulling their work off their hand and doing several manipulations (that was me when self-taught, it was years before I saw someone do a fold-over!) ie in round 2.... where there are the thrown off rings . Ready to talk about ends in our remaining 5 minutes? ok Did you both understand the concept of starting with a continuous thread between neelde/shuttle and ball to avoid starting with ends? That's the simplest strategy If you can't avoid it (such as 2 color), you can tat over the tail at the beginning of the work Hiding the end in a chain or ring. I usually only hide one thread at a time less bulk Did you both understand the concept of tatting over your thread tails from the lesson? guess I don't get it It's easiest to do with the shuttle although I've seen it done with needle too you basically use the tip of the shuttle after each 1/2 stitch to guide the thread end to lie along the core thread mary.... dont worry, i aways sew in my ends when needle tatting easiest way with the needle I mean the continuous thread Continuous thread = don't cut thread and tie together. Leave it between shuttle and ball uncut and start tatting I tried it but didn't like it was too fussy so I just took a needle and threaded it through the ds where the core was because with my needle tatting the stitches seem loose enough I don't think this would work for shuttle tatting though. start by winding your first shuttle Voila, no thread ends hanging at the beginning replace your bobbin in the shuttle You still will have ends to deal with when you finish something's not clicking how can you put thread on the shuttle if it's not cut off? then continue winding the thread around the fat part of the shuttle about 2/3 the number of times you wound the bobbin Do you mean on a 2nd shuttle mary? That's what Anita is describing it's not making sense to me Wind inside, then wind enough thread outside to go on the 2nd shuttle. Cut, then wind the outside thread onto the 2nd shuttle THEN and ONLY THEN do you cut it off the ball Then there's no knot between the 2 shuttles and start winding the thread onto shuttle 2 I don't do that "outside" winding through the points , but around the outside of hte shuttle, using the shuttle as a thread holder mimi and mary i will take scans of my shuttles doing this so you can see it do you not end up with problems as to which way the napp of the thread is? you can use a thread holder instead if you like. Thanks Anita Haven't yet, Brenda mary when you see it you will DEFFINATLY understand The twist of the thread is the same regardless of end super easy to do Tatting thread is so tightly twisted, plied, and mercerized that nap is small and not usually noticeable to me anyway If you're tatting with novelty yarn, yes, you might have some difficulty :) And not just nap! when i was pulling my needle through my stitches I was getting a tremendous amount of twist and then I realized I was pulling the needle thread through against the napp. I thought that was the problem but didn't try it again with the napp going the right way. Interesting. same thing happens to me yarn wow. i'm just using crochet thread. and I'm using tatting thread Yikes I can't imagine taking knots out of yarn. crochet thread has alot more nap than tatting thread I actually had less twisting with crochet thread I got fed up and started using shorter lengths but then I have all these ugly knots where I join and all the ends to put in. That's why I brought up ends. Oh oh, I just threw off a ring and closed it and I have that gaposis thing, is there a fix? Oh no!! Where is the gap? On the leg of thread heading to the ring? I hope not... maybe if i continue with the chain it will snug up and hide it. yes. I thought I kept is so close too. Darn, that one I don't know how to fix except to take out the ring :-( Hopefully its small enough that if you do the 2nd part of the chain snugly to that ring, that it won't show much? Anyway, it's getting a bit late (phone's been ringing here twice now!) How about we go over sewing in ends Lily's way Using a tapestry needle to sew in threads between stitch caps http://www.frontiernet.net/~TammyRodgers/lilys_way.html This is by far the neatest way for me to finish my ends I tried jamming hte tapestry needle inside the stitches along hte core thread All that did was pull the chains and rings out of shape in the process plus some got grubby because I was having to grip so hard! This method requires little force, but completely hides the ends Maybe you already discovered it in your own quest to finish off thread ends? For me, it was one of htose revelations right up there with fold-over joins Didn't figure it out myself, but I sure could tell a good thing when I saw it :) does this work for two color tatting too? Of course, no thread end hiding is necessary if you're gluing your work to cards, or or maybe sewing it onto fabric You can either cut off ends closer to the knot and oversew, or just pull through to the back of the fabric and knot off there Finishing Lily's way (as with tatting over tails) will allow both sides of your work to be enjoyed, no thread ends visible very satisfying to a perfectionist like me :) Judges like it at the Fairs, too I'll stop there for now, and ask that you look at the "Magic Thread Trick" Idea after class It's very helpful to many people You can finish ends while working I will have to try it again. I didn't understand the drawing and now I see your thread is threaded through above the core. I did a doily of 36 triangles using magic thread trick And all I had to do was snip off ends at the end and it was ready to wash/block triangles wow do you have a picture of it? I'd have gone crazy sewing in 72 ends!! I can scan. It's from a book by Gary and Randy Houtz. They all fit together into a hexagon is there a source to describe how to block and starch? Ohmygosh that's a whole lesson in itself! I think there used to be one on the old round robins site, tattings.com. thanks. I'll have to check the wayback machine and see what displays (images sometimes don't come through) Email addresses? For those that want to see the doily of triangles I mean? I can send a low-res scan bctoadlover at hotmail.com OK, I need to log off for now so that I can start cooking dinner (and see what DH's sister wanted...) Are there any other quick questiosn? doing the chain after the thrown off ring made the little gap unnoticeable.Hooray. Hallelujah, that's great news! Whew! thank you so much you have helped trenmendously. Good luck Mary. thanks But that's the main thing about gapsosis... it creeps up on you :) Just keep watching how closely you're making your ring or chain to the previous one before you go very far. I do that automatically, just like I always check to see if the core thread of a ring is sliding after the first couple of ds's or after a picot Glad I was able to help. Have fun with the magic thread trick idea. And if you still have time/brain cells, have a look at lesson 4. Before next class, that is. The split ring is an interesting concept. what happens after the last lesson? Easy on the needle, but a little strange at first for shuttle tatters. It's the last thing that helped me get through the doily of triangles (tat over tails, MTT, and split rings) I have to redo lesson two awareness ribbon as my core thread color is showing through. Then I will look at 4 see you next week. At the end of hte last lesson, we try to give you some ideas for branching out on your own for more study The hope is that we'll hvae taught you enough in 4 lessons that you can join the regular on-line class when it's in session next fall so there's no group or ongoing place to learn ? Do you belong to any of hte tatting lists such as tatting.yahoo.com or etatters? the regular class needs an AOL connection though doesn't it? I was mainly asking about teh ongoing class I guess Not at all, Brenda. I don't have AOL but attend regularly and yes I'm in some groups Until the class starts up again this fall, there's no ongoing study groupt hat I know of. Is there any other lessons anywhere between now and fall? so if I register MIRC I can go to the sunday classes? This classroom is used by the online class monday nights On Sunday nights you'll need to have AIM - AOL Instant MEssenger AIM is free You can download it from AOL thanks But you will need someone to invite you into the class the first time so that you can bookmark ti so basically there's nothing til fall? we would register again like we did for these classes? I'm afraid there's no lessons planned now until fall, correct Once registered, you should always be registered I don't think Georgia kicks anyone off the mailing list ;) You can always check http://www.georgiaseitz.com I don't know if I'm on her list http://www.angelfire.com/planet/newtatters/SLT Write to her at aktatter@aol.com if you don't get messages occasionally from [Online Tatting Class] here is the link for scans of the SLT oh on this list that i get messages from is there like a central area where the messages are or are they only single emails I get in my hotmail? along with a quick explanation i will fill in more if anyone needs more when they see the scans The georgiaseitz.com website will announce whgen classes start again once Georgia is ready I don't get any messages from there It's all volunteer, so that's why it may not always be reliable. that link doesn't work :-( Anita, didn't we give Mary's info to Georgia to put Mary on the list? i thought i had Mary, you may need to write to her just in case. She's traveling now, but she'll be back in another week or so. will have to resend it