Dialogue on Confession of Sins

Note: The Catholic response is in blue

I hope you do not see my questions as having an agenda, and I ask questions only to make some clarifications for myself....Thank you for talking with me on here. I appreciate this, as for some time I have been interested in a further understanding of the Catholic Church and salvation.

I don't mind at all - it is actually refreshing to have the opportunity to present what I believe to someone who seems to simply want to understand it rather than start a lot of petty bickering. I hope you don't mind if I break it up into paragraph form.

I do not subscribe to the theory of "Once Saved Always Saved", and I gather from this above quote, you do not either. (I am not referring to "grave" matters and any particular sins here, just the matter of deliberate turning from Gods will for each person personally, and not repenting).

Absolutely. I think you've given a succinct definition of sin and what it does to a person's relationship with God. The Catechism states that "We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: 'He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.'[1 Jn 3:14-15 ] Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.[Cf. Mt 25:31-46 ] To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self- exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called 'hell.'" (1033)

May I ask here the Catholic meaning of the two different sins..... "venial" (which the dictionary explains as "forgivable, pardonable and excusable") and "mortal"?.

I hope you don't mind my quoting the Catechism here - it says it better than I can. 1 John 5:16-17 makes the distinction between degrees of sin. "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shal ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There IS a sin unto death"

"Mortal sin destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God's law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him. Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it. Mortal sin, by attacking the vital principle within us - that is, charity - necessitates a new initiative of God's mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation: When the will sets itself upon something that is of its nature incompatible with the charity that orients man toward his ultimate end, then the sin is mortal by its very object . . . whether it contradicts the love of God, such as blasphemy or perjury, or the love of neighbor, such as homicide or adultery.... But when the sinner's will is set upon something that of its nature involves a disorder, but is not opposed to the love of God and neighbor, such as thoughtless chatter or immoderate laughter and the like, such sins are venial.[St. Thomas Aquinas, STh I-II, 88, 2, corp. art.] " (CCC 1855-56) Here is the Catechism Search Engine for more details. Just type in "venial sin" or "mortal sin", etc.

I have often stated, that I would hope that if I was stripped of all meetings, workers, christian friends, hymns, and so on, it is what I have left in my heart which is the main thing. If I lean on any of these things (perhaps the Catholics here could lean on mass and other things you mentioned) then I fear I may not be able to stand alone with only Christ to support me. Would you support these sentiments?

I can accept your statement that we are supported by Christ; however, I would suggest to you that Christ supports us in many different ways. I would say that the Catholic is supported by Christ through things like the mass, the Eucharist, etc.

if I repented in my heart with sincerity and honesty to God in private prayer, do you see it as gaining the same forgiveness as doing it through the sacrament of Reconciliation (Confession)? In other words, can I cut the "Confession" corner here?

In James 5:16 it says to confess your sins to one another, and Paul wrote that he was given the ministry of reconciliation (2 Cor 5:17-20). Because you are not Catholic you are, literally, cutting the "confession corner" in the sense that you do not confess your sins to God through a priest. Of course it is possible to repent with sincerity and honesty to God in private prayer; however, what must come after "confession" of sins is reparation, and this is where the priest comes in. Just as Jesus had the authority to forgive sins, He gave that authority to the Apostles (Jn 20:23) and Catholics believe that there is no reason to believe that this practice stopped with the death of the last apostle. I emphasize that it is only through the priest that sins are confessed, not of their own power. They bind and loose (Mt 18:18) sins by God's authority in order that we can be reconciled. Also, please note that this presupposes the idea that the process of justification of our souls means actually making us clean by Christ's power, not merely "covering" us with an alien righteousness from Christ.

I must strive, with Gods power, to stick to his two commandments. In doing this, we note the second one is an umbrella for all the teachings of Jesus. We are not discussing "works " here (lol).

If we love God with all our mind, heart and strength, we will be by definition expressing our faith by working in love (Gal 5:6).

I wonder if as humans, we are being like the people of Israel who clamoured for a physical King? They were not satisfied in having an "invisible" king .... and maybe we too as humans, seem to require, not just the invisible private leading of Christ, but a written and visible "Doctrine"?

That is a great point which relates to the above discussion about leaning on Christ alone. We are not just disembodied spirits floating around in space - we are flesh and bone. Even Jesus Himself was both human and divine - He became one of us so that we could be saved. In a similar way, the Bible is a divinely inspired book, yet it was written by humans. In other words, I'm not sure that it is possible to reduce things to simply a spiritual level, because we are more than just that. I personally believe that when Paul spoke of the church which is the pillar of truth (1 Tim 3:15), he was not just talking about a vague, invisible assembly of believers who "live the teachings of Jesus", but rather a physical entity.

Is this your written doctrine book? (Pardon my ignorance.) Do all practising Catholics retain one of these and refer to it if in doubt (type of thing)? When was it written? and is it updated in language (or fresh thinking ) from time to time?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is the summarization of the official teachings. It was updated about 10 years ago (I think) for the first time in hundreds of years. While all Catholics should have one and refer to it, not everyone owns one, and my reasons for trying to quote a lot from it is to make sure I present to you the exact teachings rather than having me paraphrase something in error.

So these two types of sins are just words for the distinctions mentioned in the above John verses. Thank you.

Yes. In the context of 1 Jn 5:16-17, "mortal sin" would correspond with "sin that leads to death" (NIV), or as the CCC states, sin which "destroys charity in the heart of man by a grave violation of God's law; it turns man away from God, who is his ultimate end and his beatitude, by preferring an inferior good to him. Venial sin allows charity to subsist, even though it offends and wounds it."

One question, interrupting myself here, the "blasphemy" spoken of in this passage, does it mean the one unforgivable sin in this instance? or perhaps something else? If it means the unforgivable sin .... then wouldn't you say there is "no hope" for forgiveness?

"Blasphemy is directly opposed to the second commandment. It consists in uttering against God - inwardly or outwardly - words of hatred, reproach, or defiance; in speaking ill of God; in failing in respect toward him in one's speech; in misusing God's name. St. James condemns those 'who blaspheme that honorable name (of Jesus) by which you are called.'[Jam 2:7] ...Blasphemy is contrary to the respect due God and his holy name. It is in itself a grave sin." (CCC 2148). In this definition I'm not sure that it necessarily means the unforgivable sin of Mt 12:32.

These mortal sins are able to be sorted out as you said by the following: "necessitates a new initiative of God's mercy and a conversion of heart which is normally accomplished within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation." I am glad you mentioned the new conversion of heart. Thats where it all begins and ends, as I see it (in Christ). Can this be done inwardly within a person? or should it be done within the setting of the sacrament of reconciliation only. I now ask what this is? Perhaps a ritual type of thing? Perhaps confession to a priest? OR, is it like starting all over at the beginning again ... both inwardly and outwardly in the church setting?

Of course it can be done inwardly within a person; however, "the confession (or disclosure) of sins, even from a simply human point of view, frees us and facilitates our reconciliation with others. Through such an admission man looks squarely at the sins he is guilty of, takes responsibility for them, and thereby opens himself again to God and to the communion of the Church in order to make a new future possible. " (CCC 1455).

Is it up to each devoted and committed individual to be honest and open regarding their sins ... thereby bringing about the sacrament of reconciliation and confession?

Absolutely. Catholics believe that actually verbalizing your sins facilitates an honest confrontation and reflection on your sins. Please note that we're not talking about all the sordid details of your sex life, for example. The priest is only interested in the nature of the sin, frequency, etc.

I guess if a person is truly in the will of God, they will be aware when they may cross this line.

I would certainly hope so.......

"I always saw it this way.... that all sin CAN lead to death and even tho murder/adultary etc is more serious in human eyes than "thoughtless chatter" (or perhaps causing disruption amongst christians etc) they can all lead to death. Continuation of venial sin without repentance, will also lead to death eventually, imo."

I agree. Any sin represents a separation from God, some more so than others. Venial sins, if continued, can lead to an eventual hardening of one's heart toward God altogether.

But, could you personally, be stripped of all Catholic (and any church) support and for arguments sake, be thrown into a far country where christianity does not exist, perhaps be jailed (think of Joseph in the OT) and still make it with God right through into eternity?

Sure. You will be judged only by the access to grace available. This is why the Catholic Church does not insist that the Amazon tribal member who has never heard of God cannot be saved. (I can see the Christian fundamentalists gasping in horror and rolling their eyes already) In a similar way, non-Catholic Christians (this means you) have been "stripped" of some of the Catholic support but can still "make it with God right through into eternity."

Personally, I still do not feel comfortable with this process even as you emphasised through the priest and not just by confessing to a priest as in a "man". (If you get what I mean). I am wondering if when Jesus left the "Comforter" (his Holy Spirit) behind after he left the earth in human body, we can now use this avenue instead of even through a priest.

I would say that Jesus didn't just leave us the Holy Spirit, He left us the Apostles (Jn 20:20-23) and their successors who spread the gospel, wrote the books of the Bible, etc. This goes back to the idea that we are not just disembodied spirits but rather we are physical beings in a community of fellowship. The analogy I've heard about reconciliation is when a person is convicted of a crime - he may receive forgiveness, but he still must be imprisoned, for example. Make reparation for sin existed in the Old Testament (Ex 32:30-32, Num 14:19-23, 2 Sam 12:13-14) but it continued in the New Testament (Rom 8:13,17; 1 Cor 11:27-32; Heb 12:6-8)

I, in the past have probably committed sins of the mortal variety (am I alone amongst christians in trespassing in this area of sin?) and even 'tho I have had certain agonies in coming through the repentance and reparation process, I have felt total forgiveness from God. We all know the feeling of the pain when we have displeased God, weighing heavily on us, but I hope also we also know that descendance of peace as we feel and know of Gods forgiveness.

I think that is a wonderful commentary on God's mercy, don't you? :-)

And so, for myself, I do not feel any need to go through a priest. I have proved this can be done through God and myself alone. I do not decry the catholics in this ....I guess I am doing some corner cutting again and leaving the extra element out.

The term "cutting corners" often has a negative connotation. Do you really see it this way for yourself?

I heard a nice analagy recently of the physical church ....(It is like boxing around concrete. Wet concrete needs the boxing for a while to help it set. But the boxing is only the excess, and at some stage can be removed and you have the concrete straight and strong, no longer needing the boxing as support. Those are only my words, and a summary of what I heard. I suppose this is what I mean when I say we should be able to be stripped of all the excess "boxing" and be able to stand alone in Christ.

I think I understand the analogy, but I disagree. For me, we are a community of believers instructed to encourage and build up one another (1 Thess 5:11) and bear one another's burdens (Gal 6:2) in a tangible way. To try to reduce the Body of Christ to simply the concrete box without its support is is like Paul's description of the Body of Christ. "For the body is not one member, but many...And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you" (1 Cor 12:14,21)

When my mother was dying, I thanked her for giving us each other (my brothers and sisters) to go through life with. She said, she chose to have all of us, so we had each other for this life, as the special bonds of family. My mother was not a strong person, but she chose to have 4 children so that we had each other. I sometimes wonder if God loves us His children all over the earth to be able to have that same special bond as sisters and brothers .. in a divine way? Maybe it is yet another of His spiritual gifts to us .... a shared divine love, beginning here on eath, to be continued on in eternity.

Absolutely!

I wish to semi retract my statement on all unrepented sin (includes venial) leading eventually to death. I discussed this with my husband a little, and will need to do some more thinking...Because I am not a Catholic, I do not confess my sins through a priest .....and even 'tho I can repent with sincerity and honesty to God in private prayer, I obviously miss out on the "reparation" process through a priest ..... therefore am I forgiven? Do you think that I MUST fulfill the reparation through a priest, to be forgiven and my sins blotted out? IF this is the case, then it is obvious I need to be a Catholic to be saved and forgiven of my sins. Is that correct?

Not being Catholic does not mean you cannot have forgiveness, and if I've said anything to make you think so, I apologize.

21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven." I see where you believe the catholic priests continue this down the line till today, but ..... what about the Comforter (Holy Spirit) which Jesus left behind in his place?In the verses above, Jesus was leaving them physically and so gave (breathed) his Holy Spirit onto his disciples. But can we not also have Gods Holy Spirit as well and maybe it will interceed for us?

In Matthew 16:19, Jesus gave power to Peter to "bind and loose", which was extended to the rest of the apostles in Matthew 18:18. Then, in the only other recorded instance of God breathing on man, Jesus gave them the authority to forgive sins in John 20. Catholics believe that the Bible shows that this is the way God wants it to work, which should not exclude the Holy Spirit, but rather include the Holy Spirit.

I also looked at this verse: 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all " and wondered if this was an appropriate verse to support the corner cutting of confessing through a priest?

I would say again that Catholics do not believe that this is the way God wants it to happen. God acted through humans to give us the Sacred Scriptures, God acted through humans to determine which of the multitudes of writings were divinely inspired and comprised the Bible, God acted (and still does) through humans to preach the gospel, etc. Since Jesus took the time to give authority to forgive sins in His name to the Apostles, Catholics believe that this was to continue. The priest, acting through Christ (not instead of) "binds and looses" sins and helps make reparation. The analogy my own parish priest gave which I like is that of nails driven into a block of wood. The nails (symbolizing our sins) still leave holes in the wood (symbolizing our relationship with God) even though they're removed by the contrition of heart. The priest helps repare those holes by giving guidance for penance. CCC 1434 says, "The interior PENANCE of the Christian can be expressed in many and various ways. Scripture and the Fathers insist above all on three forms, fasting, prayer, and almsgiving,[Cf. Tob 12:8; Mt 6:1-18] which express conversion in relation to oneself, to God, and to others. Alongside the radical purification brought about by Baptism or martyrdom they cite as means of obtaining forgiveness of sins: effort at reconciliation with one's neighbor, tears of repentance, concern for the salvation of one's neighbor, the intercession of the saints, and the practice of charity 'which covers a multitude of sins.'[1 Pet 4:8; Cf. Jam 5:20]"

peace be with you