The Mystery of Babylon and Mother of Harlots, Part III

[Nate] The Roman Catholic Church's yielding to heathen customs and practices that were subsequently incorporated into Roman Catholic Teachings and Worships [sic]. The following is partial list of heathen, Unscriptural practices that became a part of Roman Catholic Dogma over a period of 17th Century [sic]. Approximate dates given are.
[Clay] First, providing a list of things without actually proving pagan origins is simply insufficient. Second, there is nothing inherently wrong with the incorporation and improvement of pagan practices into Christianized versions. Consider the Apostle Paul - Dave Armstrong points out that "he 'incorporated paganism' in a sense when he dialogues with the Greek intellectuals and philosophers on Mars Hill in Athens (Acts 17). He compliments their religiosity (17:22), and comments on a pagan "altar with the inscription, 'To an unknown god.' " (17:23). He then goes on to preach that this "unknown god" is indeed Yahweh, the God of the OT and of the Jews (17:23-24). Then he expands upon the understanding of the true God as opposed to "shrines made by human hands" (17:24-25), and God as Sovereign and Sustaining Creator (17:26-28). In doing so he cites two pagan poets and/or philosophers: Epimenides of Crete (whom he also cites in Titus 1:12) and Aratus of Cilicia (17:28) and expands upon their understanding as well (17:29).

This is basically the same thing that the Church does with regard to pagan feasts and customs: it takes whatever is not sinful and Christianizes it. To me, this is great practical wisdom and a profound understanding of human nature. The frequent Protestant assumption that this is a wholesale adoption of paganism per se, and an evil and diabolical mixture of idolatry and paganism with Christianity is way off the mark. Hopefully, the above defense will answer this "reasoning" adequately...Remember, it was Paul who stated, 'To the weak I became weak, so that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that I might by all means save some." (1 Cor 9:22)”

Third, Nate is apparently unaware that circumcision was an adaptation of pagan ritual, yet he doesn't object to it (so are birthday cakes, Christmas trees, etc.). Third, the assumption that something is invalid simply because it "developed" over time is a fundamental error; for example, the very Bible Nate twists to his own destruction itself was a development over several centuries. For more on the development of doctrine, click here.

1. Prayer for the Dead ... 300 A.D.
[Clay] Wrong. First, prayers for the "dead" were offered as far back in early Judaism (12 Maccabees). Second, they're not dead (Rom 12:5, Mk 12:26-27, Eph 4:4), and 12 Maccabees makes it clear that prayers for the dead were a practice long before 300 A.D. Third, it doesn't matter if you don't accept the canonicity of 12 Macc in your Old Testament - the fact remains that this was part of Jewish custom.**
2. Making the Sign of the Cross...300 A.D.
[Clay] Wrong. Tertullian was making the sign of the cross as early as the 3rd Century. In addition, the sign of the cross is suggested from Scripture, even in the Old Testament:

"… they were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green growth or any tree, but only those of mankind who have not the seal of God upon their foreheads" (Rev 9:4 RSV, cf. Rev 7:3, Rev 14:1)

"Then he called to the man dressed in linen … saying to him: Pass through the city (through Jerusalem) and mark an X on the foreheads of those who moan and groan over all the abominations that are practiced within it." (Ez 9:3-4NAB, cf Ex 17:9-14)

Here's what Tertullian (160-225 A.D.) wrote in De cor. Mil., iii: "in all our coming in and going out, in putting of our shoes, at the bath, at the table, in lighting our candles, in lying down, in sitting down, whatever employment occupieth us, we mark our foreheads with the sign of the cross".
3. Veneration of Angels & Dead Saints...375 A.D.
[Clay] Wrong. Saints are venerated because Paul instructed us to "Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due" (Rom. 13:7)
4. Use of images in Worship... 375 A.D.
[Clay] Wrong. Actually, the command was not to worship any graven images - making images was actually commanded by God. There were the 2 cherubim made of beaten gold (Ex 25:18-19). Moses made a bronze serpent and put it on a pole (Num 21:8-9). The temple in 1 Kings 6:23-29 had engraved cherubim, trees, and flowers; the temple in 1 Kings 7:25-45 had bronze oxen, lions, and pomegranates, and so on.
5. The Mass as a Daily Celebration... 394 A.D.
[Clay] Wrong. The mass is held at the command of Jesus to "do this in memory of me" (Lk 22), reinforced by Paul (1 Cor 11 ) and this practice was continued by the early Christians on a daily basis (Acts 2:42-46). If Bible support isn't enough, here is something written in A.D. 70:

"Assemble on the Lord's day, and break bread and offer the Eucharist; but first make confession of your faults, so that your sacrifice may be a pure one. Anyone who has a difference with his fellow is not to take part with you until they have been reconciled, so as to avoid any profanation of your sacrifice [Matt. 5:23-24]. For this is the offering of which the Lord has said, 'Everywhere and always bring me a sacrifice that is undefiled, for I am a great king, says the Lord, and my name is the wonder of nations' [Mal. 1:11, 14]" Didache 14 [A.D. 70]).

By the way, where does the Bible command Wednesday night meetings? What about conventions, or Union meetings? These objections are meaningless.
6. Beginning of exaltation of Mary; the term, "Mother of God"... 431 A.D.
[Clay] Wrong. Elizabeth was the first to call Mary the Mother of God - "And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Lk 1:43) Even the angel gave her the greeting of royalty, "Hail", and used a new word for her, meaning "full of grace", kecharitomene in Greek (Lk 1:28). Elizabeth called her "most blessed among women" (Lk 1:42), and Mary herself said, "generations will call me blessed" (Lk 1:48). Mary is honored, NOT worshipped.
7. Extreme Unction (Last Rites)... 526 A.D.
[Clay] Wrong. ”Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord, and the pray of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven (James 5:14-15)
8. Doctrine of Purgatory-Gregory I... 593 A.D.
[Clay] Wrong. There is an intermediate "place" (1 Peter 3:18-20, 4:6) where forgiveness is possible (Mt 5:26), after suffering loss, but saved as through fire (1 Cor 3:15). Accordingly, there was made intercession for the dead (2 Macc 12:44-46, 2 Tim 1:16-18, 1 Cor 15:29-30).
9. Prayers to Mary&Dead Saints... 600 A.D.
[Clay] Wrong. The communion of saints is quite biblical. We are One Body in Christ (Rom 12:5) with Christ as the Head (Eph 5:21-32). Death cannot separate us (Rom 8:35-39), and those who have gone on are a “cloud of witnesses” (Heb 12:1), much like Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration (Mk 9:4) who intercede for us (Rev 5:8) as Paul encouraged (1 Tim 2:1, Rom 15:30, 2 Thess 1:11, Eph 6:18-19). 1) Saints are not "dead" - see above. 2) Saints are venerated because Paul instructed us to "Pay all of them their dues, taxes to whom taxes are due, revenue to whom revenue is due, respect to whom respect is due, honor to whom honor is due" (Rom. 13:7).
10. Worship of Cross, Images, Relics... 786 A.D.
[Clay] Nate is repeating himself to make his pathetic list longer – Catholics do not worship crosses, statues, stained glass windows, potato chips that look like Mary, or any other object. This idolatry, which was condemned by the Church a long time ago.
11. Canonization of Dead Saints... 995 A.D.
[Clay] More shameless redundancy. Saints are not "dead" - see above.
12. Celibacy of Priesthood... 1079 A.D.
[Clay] Wrong. Nate apparently has forgotten that workers are celibate, too! The Catholic Church encourages celibacy among the clergy, much like Jesus did (Mt 19:12), AND as Paul wrote in 1 Cor 7.
13. Rosary...1090 A.D.
[Clay] Wrong. The Rosary is quite biblical:

[Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee]
Luke 1:28 "And the angel came in unto her, and said, hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women."

[Blessed are thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus]
Luke 1:42 "And she spake out with a loud voice, and said, Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb."

[Holy Mary, mother of God]
Luke 1:43 "And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?"

[pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.]
1 Timothy 2:1 "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;"

Revelation 5:8 "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints."

Revelation 8:4 "And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand."
14. Indulgences...1190 A.D.
[Clay] Wrong. Paul wrote that he was given the ministry of reconciliation (2 Cor 5:17-20)
15. Confession of sins to a Priest...1215 A.D.
[Clay] Wrong. We are to confess our sins (James 5:16), and the apostles were given the authority to bind and loose (Mt 18:18), continued in Jn 20:23.
16. Adoration of the Wafer...1220 A.D.
[Clay] Wrong. The “wafer” is not adored – Catholics take Jesus’ words literally when he said “whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day. For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink (Jn 6:54-55). Because Jesus said, “This IS my body” (Lk 22:19), instead of “this represents my body”, Catholics believe the wafer actually becomes the Body of Christ and is no longer just a wafer. Having “emblems of grape juice and a slice of Wonderbread is just a lame, watered-down capitulation to the original Gospel.
17. Purgatory proclaimed as a Dogma...1439 A.D.
[Clay] Again with the repetition to give the appearance of a longer list. It is sad, really.
18. The Doctrine of the Seven Sacraments confirmed. 1439 A.D.
[Clay] Wrong. The 7 sacraments, which are signs and means by which faith is expressed and strengthened, are quite biblical – baptism (Jn 3:5), confirmation (Acts 8:14-17), Eucharist (Jn 6, Lk 22:19), reconciliation (2 Cor 5:17-20, James 5:16, Mt 18:18), marriage (Heb 13:4), holy orders (Acts 20:28, Acts 14:22, Titus 1:5), and anointing of the sick (James 5:14-16, Mk 6:12-13)
19. Immaculate Conception of Mary...1854 A.D.
[Clay] Wrong. The Immaculate Conception means that Mary was born without Original Sin, in a state of sanctifying grace. This is why the angel Gabriel addressed Mary as “full of grace” (Lk 1:28). In the original Greek the word is kecharitomene, which uses the perfect passive participle, denoting ”continuance of a completed action”; therefore, kecharitomene means “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace”. It is, as the great theologian Thomas Aquinas declared in his classic work Summa Theologiae, “I answer that, God so prepares and endows those, whom He chooses for some particular office, that they are rendered capable of fulfilling it, according to 2 Cor. 3:6: '(Who) hath made us fit ministers of the New Testament.' Now the Blessed Virgin was chosen by God to be His Mother. Therefore there can be no doubt that God, by His grace, made her worthy of that office, according to the words spoken to her by the angel (Lk. 1:30,31): 'Thou hast found grace with God: behold thou shalt conceive,' etc. But she would not have been worthy to be the Mother of God, if she had ever sinned. First, because the honor of the parents reflects on the child, according to Prov. 17:6: 'The glory of children are their fathers': and consequently, on the other hand, the Mother's shame would have reflected on her Son. Secondly, because of the singular affinity between her and Christ, who took flesh from her: and it is written (2 Cor. 6:15): 'What concord hath Christ with Belial?' Thirdly, because of the singular manner in which the Son of God, who is the 'Divine Wisdom' (1 Cor. 1:24) dwelt in her, not only in her soul but in her womb. And it is written (Wis. 1:4): 'Wisdom will not enter into a malicious soul, nor dwell in a body subject to sins.' “(III, 27:4)
20. Infallibility of the Pope in matters of faith and morals... 1870 A.D.
[Clay] Wrong. Papal infallibility was not "created" in 1870 - it was formally defined in 1870. This fact notwithstanding, the belief that the Bishop of Rome was infallibly protected from teaching error is present even from the early Christian writings (which I'll be happy to provide). This is what infallibility means - it does NOT mean that the pope is "perfect". This office was created by Jesus for Peter (Mt 16:16-18) and his sucessors, and they were promised divine guidance (Mt 28:20) for confirming his brethren in faith (Lk 22:32).
21. Mary proclaimed Mother of The Roman Catholic Church. 1965 A.D.
[Clay] Wrong. Because we are ALL the adopted brothers and sisters of Jesus (Mt 12:50), Mary is the mother of us all. As the great Augustine wrote, “clearly the mother of the members of Christ ... since she cooperated out of love so that there might be born in the Church the faithful, who are members of the Christ their Head' (De sacra virginitate, 6).
[Nate] Roman Catholics who read the Bible will soon discover that Jesus Christ Himself forbids Many Teachings and Practices.
[Clay] Wrong. In case you missed it, all of the responses I’ve given have provided the Scriptural basis for Catholic teaching. Absolutely nowhere will you find a Catholic teaching that contradicts Scripture. If Nate would deny that he himself is infallible, is it his own vainglory that prevents him from allowing the Catholic Church from having its own interpretation of the Bible?
[Nate] Note carefully the following warnings given by the Lord Jesus Christ to the Religious leaders of His day Concerning Vain Worship, Vain Tradition and Vain Repetitions. 1. Vain Worship: In (Matthew 15: 8-9) Jesus said, "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoreth me with their lips; but their heart is Far from me." All Worship is Indeed Vain when it is based upon the Commandments of men rather than the Word of God.
[Clay] Indeed, much like forbidding the ownership of televisions and radios, severe dress codes and standards for personal appearance, the bewildering insistance that “meeting in the home” is somehow NOT a man-made structure, etc.………….
2. Vain Tradition: In (Matthew 15:6) Jesus said, "Thus have ye made the Commandment of God of none effect by your tradition." Vain Tradition is based upon man's teachings and violates it. In Roman Catholism [sic], tradition is consistently elevated above Scripture. This result in Vain Worship (no matter how sincere) and makes the commandment of God no effect---a very serious matter.
[Clay] Wrong. The “very serious matter” is the way in which Nate incessantly misrepresents Catholic doctrine. Scripture and Tradition are equal sources of God’s Word; it was through Catholic Tradition that the very canon of Scripture was ascertained (through God’s help, of course). Furthermore, Scripture itself quite frequently emphasizes the necessity of tradition:

1 Cor 11: “Hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you”

2 Thess 2:15 “Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by letter.”

2 Thess 3:6 “We instruct you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, to shun any brother who conducts himself in a disorderly way and not according to the tradition they received from us.
3. Vain Repetitions: In (Matthew 6:7) Jesus said, "But when ye Pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking." A basic part of Roman Catholic Worship is the frequent repetition of the Rosary. Its Origin is clearly tied to heathen religions such as Hinduism, Islam, and Buddhism.
[Clay] I demand that Nate show me what the scripturally-allowable time interval between the same prayer is. Then, take a look at Psalm 136, where the phrase “God’s love endures forever” is repeated 26 TIMES. Even more devastating to Nate’s illogic are the actions of Jesus Himself: ”He left them and withdrew AGAIN and prayed a THIRD TIME, saying the SAME THING AGAIN” (Mt 26:44). Would Nate blaspheme by accusing our Lord of vain repetition? Of course not, because the emphasis is on the “vain” part, not the repetition itself.
[Nate] For a thousand years, Believing Christians have identified Rome with the Harlot of Revelation 17. At the end of the 9th Century, "Tergadus, Bishop of Treas", called the Pope antichrist, yea, a Wolf and Rome, Babylon (Martyrs Mirror, 5th English edition. Page 240). ***** In the 10th Century, Arnulphus, Bishop of Orleans, called the Pope Antichrist, in a full council at Rheims (Peter Allix, The Ecclesiastical History of the Ancient Churches of Piedmont, 1821, Page 229). ***** In the 11th Century, Berenger of Tours denounced Rome's dogmas and maintained that the Roman Church was the Seed of Satan (George Faber, the History of Ancient Vallense and Albigenses, 1838, Page 159). The Waldensians, throughout their long history, identifies the Pope as the Antichrist. The Waldenses treatise titled the Noble Lesson dated 1100 A.D. state[sic]: "Antichrist, the predicted murderer of Saints, hath already appear in his True Character, seated monarchally in the Seven-hilled City." ***** In 1120 or 1160 A.D. A Treatise Concerning Antichrist identified the Pope of Rome as the Antichrist. George Faber identifies this as a production of Peter Waldo the Apostle (George Faber, page 379-384). ***** In 1206, at the conference of Montreal, the Albigenses made the following confession: "That the church of Rome was not the Spouse of Christ, but the Church of confusion, Drunk with the Blood of the Martyrs. That the polity of the Church of Rome was neither Good or Holy, nor Established by Jesus Christ." (Peter Allix, The Ecclesiastical History of the Ancient Churches of Albigenses, 1821 edition, first published in 1692, Page 178). ***** The Bohemians, a Colony of Waldenses in Bohemia, held the following beliefs, according to the Roman Inquisitor. This Description was given in the 14th Century but uses from the 13th Century: "The first error, saith he, is that the Church of Rome is not the Church of Jesus Christ, but an assembly of Wicked men, and the Whore that sits upon the Beast in the Revelation. They declared the Pope to be the head and ringleader of all Errors. (Allix, Ancient Churches of Piedmont, Page 242-259)". ***** The Lollards of the 14th and 15th Centuries maintained "That the Church of Rome Was Not the Church of Christ, but infidel heathens; and they despised all ecclesiastical laws, together with all the Bishops and Ministers of the Church" (Allix, Ancient Churches of the Aligenses, Page 230). ***** The Petrobusians Judged the Pope to be the Antichrist (Allix, Ancient Churches of the Albigense, Page 142). Throughout the Reformation era, Rome was considered the Mother of Harlots. On September 9, 1560, The Apostle Jean Louis Paschale of Calabria, just before he was burned Alive in the presence of Pope Pius IV in Rome, turned to the Pope, and "arraigned him as the Enemy of Christ, the Persecutor of his People, and the Anti-Christ of Scripture, and concluded by summoning him and all his Cardinals to answer for their Cruelties and Murders before the Throne of the Lamb." (J.A. Wylie, History of the Waldenses, 1860, Page 120). ALL of the Reformation leaders considered the Pope Antichrist, including Martin Luther, John Calvin, John Huss; their successors in the 16th, 17th, 18th, and 19th Centuries persisted in this. ***** The Bible translator William Tyndale identified the Pope as the Antichrist in his The Practice of Prelates and in the preface to the 1534 edition of his New Testament contained dramatic woodcutting portraying the Scarlet Woman of Revelation 17, plainly identifying the Roman Catholic Church with this Apostate Religious System. ***** In his work 1893 work titled Union with Rome, Bishop Christopher Wordworth of the Church of England stated the view which prevailed among Protestants at that time "We tremble at the sight, while we read the inscription, Emblazoned in large letter, " Mystery, Babylon the Great " written by John the Apostles in 95 A.D. He was guided by the Holy Spirit of God, on the Forehead of the Church of Rome."
[Clay] I’m not sure why Nate would want to endorse the statements made by such groups as the Albigenses, Waldenses, Lollards, etc; for example, the fact that Nate thinks the Albigenses were Christians is pathetically amusing. See the Articles Page to learn more about them.
[Nate] We believe the Roman Catholic Church is the Partial fulfillment of the prophecy in Revelation 17 of a One-World religious Harlot. This is not to say that Revelation 17 is entirely fulfilled by Roman Catholism [sic]. This prophecy will not be completed until the reign of the Antichrist just prior to the Coming of the Lord, and Rome will be joined by a conglomeration of others [sic] apostate churches and organizations, the end result, no doubt, of the present Ecumenical movement.
[Clay] That’s quite a statement, coming from a member of a late 20th Century, anti-trinitarian, theologically-barren, anti-intellectual, spiritualistic pseudo-Christian fundamentalist sect.
[Nate] The Roman Catholic Church was infiltrated by the false teachings and unscriptural practices of the Charismatic Movement in the early 1960's. Its influence within Roman Catholicsm [sic] is growing rapidly. Once this movement became entrenched in the Roman Catholic Church, the Catholic leaders were quick to see that [sic] would be to their advantage to encourage these teachings rather than to oppose them. They discovered that they could use the Charismatic doctrines and practices [sic] build the Roman Catholic Church by such practices a logical and needed "renewal movement within the Church." Many people are attracted to the displays of healings, miracles, and others [sic] supposed demonstration of Holy Spirit Presence and Power, not realizing that if this were a true ministry of the Holy Spirit it would lead them to a reorganization and repudiation of the false teachings of Roman Catholism [sic]. The Charismatic Movement, both within and outside of the Roman Catholic Church is not a Movement of the Holy Spirit, but a false spirit.
[Clay] Are ALL charismatic movements false, or just the one within the Catholic Church? Upon what basis does Nate deny the gifts of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:27-31)?
[Nate] When Billy Graham began his ministry 40 years ago, he recognized Roman Catholicism as a false religion and Warned against it. Then, as Graham's crowds and popularity grew, Warnings about Roman Catholicism Ceased and those who made professions of faith in his crusades were Sent Back into the Roman Catholic Church. Later, Graham accepted Roman Catholics as counselors if they took his prescribed training course. Still later, Roman Catholic priests, bishops, and cardinals were included in the Graham Crusade committees, and finally, Graham called Pope John Paul II one of the World's great evangelists.
[Clay] Now, Nate flatters himself by claiming to be more learned and more holy than the great Protestant evangelist Billy Graham?
(II Corinthians 11: 13-150 for such men are false Apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as the Apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan Himself masquerades as an angel of light. It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as Servants of righteousness. Their End will be what their actions deserve. (New International Version). (Matthew 7: 21-23) Jesus said in the Day of Judgment "Not Everyone that saith unto me, " Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of heaven; but he that Doeth the Will of my Father which is in Heaven. Many will say to me in That DAY! Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils, and in thy name have done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, "I Never Knew You!" Depart from Me, ye evildoers!."
[Clay] Indeed, Nate will have to answer for bearing false witness against the Catholic Church. I feel only concerned sorrow for him and he is often mentioned in my prayers.
(Rev. 17:5) Call this Woman "The mother of Harlots"--- The Church of Rome has claimed to be the Mother of All her "Strayed Children." The Protestants who "Protested" left her in the 1700's. God issues a fervent Plea for His " Other Sheep "to come out of Babylon! Before the Last Days arrive. There are good Christians within the Roman Catholic Church and 30,000 Protestants [sic] Denominations."
[Clay] Actually they left in the 1500’s, but who’s counting? Is it a mere coincidence that since the Protestant Reformation the Body of Christ has fractured into some 30,000 opposing groups? I don’t think so.
[Nate] Remember this: If "A thousand years is as a DAY to the Lord" The Inquisition and many of the Catholic Church Crimes took place Only Yesterday in God's eyes. Ever since the Days of Babel, the city of Babylon has represented Organization opposition to the Purposes of God on earth. And the Bible carried the stern Warning for ALL of God's people to Come out of Her "Babylon" don't partake of her sins that reach heaven, don't receive the Plagues that are coming to her.
[Clay] Remember this - crimes against the Catholic Church are equal to or more than what sins Catholics have committed – this is a pointless objection.
[Nate] Seven Bowls of God's wrath on the Earth/Beast/Babylon (Revelation 16: 1-21). 1). The first angel poured out his bowl of God's wrath on the land, and Ugly and Painful Sores broke out on people who had the Mark of the Beast, and Worship his image. 2). The sea turned into blood and every living things in the sea dies. 3). The rivers and springs of water, and they became blood. Lord, God almighty, True and Righteous for they have Shed the Blood of Saints and Prophets and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve. 4.) The Sun was given power to scorch the people with fire. The intense heat seared them and they cursed the name of God who had control over these plagues. 5). The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast and his kingdom was plunged into darkness. 6). They are spirits of demons, performing miraculous signs and they go out for the battle on the great day of God almighty is call Armageddon. 7). Then there came a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since man has been on earth... and great city slipped into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the Fury of His Wrath. From the sky huge hailstones of about 100 pounds each fell upon men...
[Clay] Like the trumpet cycle, the bowl plagues include allusions to the Exodus plagues. The image of the bowl combines two elements from the Old Testament traditions that have already been presented in the course of Revelation. Ex 27:3 describes the bronze basins used by the priest to carry out the ashes and fat from the sacrifices. Rev 8:3-5 has the angel at the altar of incense empty the censer of coals on the earth. Here, angels come out of the temple carrying bowls filled with the plagues. The second image, introduced in the vision of the winepress, is that of the cup of wine, which represents God’s wrath (Ps 75:8, Is 51:17,22). Also, like the previous plagues, these plagues do not bring people to worship God or to repent. They only continue to blaspheme the Lord, thus sealing their own doom.” (Collegeville New Testament Commentary p. 1291). At this point, the burden of proof lies upon Nate to disprove that Babylon is actually apostate Jerusalem or pagan Rome.
[Nate] During the 1260-year rule of the Papacy, this church sought to be the ONLY one with access to God's Word. They performed their Masses in a Language the common man did not understand, and zealously destroyed any translation of the Bible that [sic] "Peasant " could read.
[Clay] Wrong. The entire reason the Bible was translated into Latin from Greek in the first place was because Latin had become the common language of the people. Nate also apparently has the simpleminded notion that the average peasant had the resources to pay for a Bible, the necessary available time for study, and, most importantly, the ability to read AT ALL.
The Roman Catholic Church went about Selling in Blessings and Indulgences, even in (Acts 8: 20) says the gift of God cannot be Purchased with money, and when any one came along and Disagreed with their doctrine, this Church totally forgot that the Only Coercion Christ use as [sic[ Coercion of LOVE. The Roman Catholic [sic] went far, far beyond that...they formed the INQUISITION!
[Clay] Once again, indulgences are not “gifts of God purchased for money”. The Bible is quite clear that there is a penalty to pay for sin in this life (2 Sam 12:13-14). God “chastens” and “scourges” us (Heb 12:6-8) so that we may be perfect, as our Heavenly Father is perfect (Mt 5:48). Because God gave Peter and the disciples the authority to “bind and loose” (Mt 18:17-18), Paul puts this into action by imposing a penance upon a sinning Christian (1 Cor 5:3-5). Later, however, he issues an indulgence by lessening the temporal penance for sin of this person (2 Cor 2:6-11). This is all that the word "indulgence" means.

Nate also keeps going back to the Inquisition. Despite his sloppy work, here is what Edward Peters writes: “If sufficient evidence accumulated against an accused who did not confess, the Inquisition had torture at its disposal, as had all ecclesiastical and secular courts -- except in England -- since the 13th century. Although torture as an incident of legal procedure was permitted only when sufficient circumstantial evidence existed to indicate that a confession could be obtained, inquisitorial torture appears to have been extremely conservative and infrequently used. "There is enough inquisitorial literature on torture contained in -Instrucciones- intended only for the eyes of inquisitors, for us to conclude that the Inquisition's use of torture was well under that of all contemporary secular courts in continental Europe, and even under that of other ecclesiastical tribunals.... "In a trial before the Spanish Inquisition, the very fact that the accused had been charged and arrested at all indicated that sufficient evidence for guilt had already been accumulated on the basis of denunciations by others, the testimony of other tried heretics, evidence from neighbors or local clergy, or self-incriminating evidence from one's own household. But the aim of the Inquisition remained penitential rather than purely judicial” (Inquisition , The Free Press/Macmillan, 1988, pp. 92-93)

Once again, this kind of argumentation is sophomoric, inflammatory, and ultimately useless, because it goes both ways – the Protestants had their own Inquisition in England, for example.
[Nate] It's estimated that during these 1260 years 50-100 Millions [sic] people were put to Death for "Heresy" by the Catholic Church. For only wanting to read the Scriptures themselves, in their own languages, and believing as Gods' spirit lead, Millions were tortured in dungeons and burned at stake.
[Clay] Here is another example of how embarrassing Nate’s complete inability to logically discuss this topic is, because the ENTIRE POPULATION of Europe at that time never was 100 Million!
[Nate] (Matthew 16:17-19) Jesus said to Peter "...On this Rock I will build My Church and the Gates of Hell will not prevail against it." Peter...Rock...Church. In the Greek "Peter" is Petros (detached stone) and Rock (bedrock). The "Bedrock" on which the Church is built is Christ! Peter's confession of Faith in Jesus as the Messiah.
[Clay] Absolutely wrong. Petros means “rock”, not little stone. The Greek for “little detached stone” is lithos. According to the rules of Greek grammar, the “rock” in both instances in the Matthew 16 passage is the SAME – Peter. We know this because you cannot divorce Peter’s confession of faith from Peter the person. Peter was blessed, had his name changed (which signifies an important role change), was given the Keys of the Kingdom, and given the authority to bind and loose. It is equally significant to note that when Nathanael (Jn 1:49-54) makes a similar confession, he receives NONE of these things from Jesus.

This is not exclusively a Catholic opinion, by the way. Here are some Protestants who agree with me:

“With all due respect to the Reformers, we must admit that the promise in Matt 16:18 ff. is directed to Peter, and not to a Peter-like faith.” (Gerhard Maier, “The Church in the Gospel of Matthew; Hermeneutical Anaysis of the Current Debate”, trans. Harold H.O. Dressler, in D.A. Caron, ed., Biblical Interpretation and Church Text and Context, Flemington Markets, NSW: Paternoster Press, 1984, p. 60)

“The word Peter petros, meaning “rock,” (Gk 4377) is masculine, and in Jesus’ follow-up statement He uses the feminine word petra (Gk 4376). On the basis of this change, many have attempted to avoid identifying Peter as the rock on which Jesus builds his church yet if it were not for Protestant reactions against extremes of Roman Catholic interpretations, it is doubtful whether many would have taken “rock” to be anything or anyone other than Peter.” (Donald A. Carson III, Matthew, in Kenneth L. Barker and John Kohlenberger, eds., Zondervan NIV Bible Commentary – New Testament, vol. 2., Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1994, p. 78).


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© Copyright Clay Randall, 2001