Getsigned.com Presents A conversation with Butch Walker

August 20, 2001

By: Gerri Miller

For every success story in the music business, there are thousands of tales of frustration, disappointment and despair. Stories of talented musicians whose hopes are dashed by the vagaries of record company politics, a constantly changing music industry climate, and a fickle public. Singer-songwriter-guitarist Butch Walker is all too familiar with those odds, having been playing the game for well over a decade and racking up both wins and losses.

Life for his most recent musical effort, Marvelous 3, started out promisingly. The trio's 1997 independent release "Math and Other Problems" garnered four Atlanta Music Awards, and the subsequent indie version of "Hey!Album" got the attention of Elektra Records, which re-released it to critical acclaim and public favor in '98. Boasting cleverly-written, infectious pop tunes like the ubiquitous "Freak of the Week," the band got off to a great start.

Walker and his bandmates Jayce Fincher (bass) and Mitch 'Slug' McLee (drums), with whom he'd previously played in Southgang and Floyd's Funk Revival/The Floyds, seemed to skirt the dreaded sophomore jinx by coming up with an excellent 'second' effort for Elektra, "ReadySexGo", released last September. But after one single, "Sugarbuzz," Elektra withdrew its support and ultimately dropped the band.

Today Marvelous 3 is no more, having bid farewell at a final show in hometown Atlanta on August 3. But Walker plans to continue as a solo artist as well as a songwriter-producer. "I'm kind of in between career stages again. It's a frustrating yet exciting time," he says, remaining optimistic that "it's always been my destiny to try to make music that makes me happy and make others happy."

Nevertheless, considering his experiences, this music 'biz survivor has a lot to say about the conflict between the forces of creativity and commerce and good advice for anyone planning to brave the industry's perilous waters.

G: You had a hit single, "Freak of the Week," on your first record Elektra released, Hey! Album, and there was quite a buzz on the band and anticipation surrounding your second record, "ReadySexGo." What happened?

B: The anticipation was from the fans and the band but not from the label. You know how that goes. It's just a trend these days to worry more about getting a one-hit-wonder type situation, which means the first single makes bank for the label. They want to keep those quarterly sales up instead of taking a chance on developing a career with an artist. It's easier to keep bringing a new artist in. It's gotten so disposable. Radio--and everyone--is more concerned with getting a new track from a new band and moving on. That's why the second, third and fourth singles from a band never do as well for most bands. The attention span is gone, and so is the faith and the loyalty. You really can't blame it on anything but the media and everything else. That's the way it goes. You sign with a [major] label and they take a massive percentage. They take like 85% of your royalties. The least they could do is work you for more than a single. They can't take credit for "Freak of the Week" because that song was a hit before [Elektra] even came along. That's why they came along, because the song was a hit and they offered me a lot of money to sign with them. It was very disingenuous and I shouldn't have fallen for it. But that's par for the course. They're trained sales people at most of these labels. I will never sign with a label that is run by someone who has good business skills but doesn't have any idea how to understand what an artist wants or needs.

G: Did you see any of this trouble coming?

B: I did. I tried to get off the label for the second record but she (Sylvia Rhone) didn't let me go. She found out that other labels wanted it. There were other labels that would die to have ReadySexGo 'cause a lot of people thought it was a groundbreaking record. But no one else was able to get it. That's what happened. I'm not dwelling on it, it's all past now and I'll get my revenge on them. I'll persevere and keep going and I plan to have a bigger hit the next time around. Same thing happened back in the day and I said "I'll be back," and I was bigger than ever. I will again, except this time I've got more respect throughout the community. I'm producing records now. I'm writing songs for other established bands' records and I'm getting ready to do a big artist deal. I've finally gotten some Atlanta pride here, putting Atlanta on the map as far as putting Atlanta on the map for rock music, I'm proud to say. The people that shunned me before will get it rubbed in their face, but I don't care to dwell on it. I want to move forward and live my life like I do, making music.

G: You've been playing with Jayce and Slug for years. In ending the band, is there any sadness on your part?

B: Yeah, it's sad. It was a sad day on Friday [August 3] when we played our last show. It was tough. We played to 70,000 people at this show, a concert in downtown Atlanta--Concert on the Bricks. We played a couple of club shows for our fans earlier in the week and set attendance records at those clubs. Then we set the attendance record at Concert on the Bricks. Then we broke up. There were a lot of tears everywhere.

G: Might there be a reunion show somewhere down the line?

B: I don't have any desire to get into reunions. We just spent 16 years together and then split up, it makes no sense. But we don't need to; we're all focused on our own thing. The decision to end the band was really easy. We'd already been through the corporate wringer twice. We'd toured the world over. And for the most part of those years we were label-less and spent most of our time--300 days out of the year--on the road. Driving ourselves in a van, roadie-ing our own gear, selling our own merch and T-shirts, keeping up with our own database and mailing list, and doing it all ourselves. I take a lot of credit and responsibility for doing that because we knew if we stuck together we'd be able to do it again and persevere and it would be sweeter, and we proved it. Then we saw the label taint the situation, but we knew for what it's worth we had a hell of a ride. We made it further than most bands can ever say. Most of the bands that were around when we were [in Southgang] were all working at the grocery store by the time we were selling records with Marvelous 3. We didn't give up, and we realized that not giving up and being persistent and caring about your songs and your craft really pays off. We didn't have anything left to prove. We had done 30 years' worth of touring in 10 years together. We'd started so young that at 31 I started feeling old. I don't want to feel old. So we said before it got trivial we would just stop and move on and do other things, quit while you're winning. That's the way you should always do it. For the last 10 years, every three or four years or so I've always reinvented every band I've had. I said, "OK, what's not working here?" Just like in a relationship. If it's not working you get out. Luckily we've been able to rekindle our flame together up until this point. But Jayce came to me and said, "I've got a four year old, I love him and I don't get to see him that much. Chrystina [his wife] is wanting to kick out some music now and I want to help her do that." I have nothing but love for that. I told him, "What am I going to tell you, no? You're my best friend. I want you to do that. This is the perfect opportunity for all of us to put it down and not say that we stayed together "for the kids." It's kind of like a divorce.

G: Except there's no animosity.

B: Never. We love each other still. It doesn't mean that the band minus Jayce won't be part of my solo thing. The Marvelous 3 was going to be my solo project before I decided to call it that, and I only did that out of respect to my guys for playing with me for so long even though I wrote the songs. I never went around shouting, "It's my band!" I don't want to speak for Slug but he told me he would do it. Either way, I'm moving on. I'm going to be putting out a solo record. I think people at the labels know I have something special and I've got to find the right home for it but I'm in no hurry.

G: Do you think you'll ever go back to a major label?

B: I don't know. I can't say that I don't want to sign with a major because I made a lot of friends over the last two years with several heads of labels that are run by artists and are very big believers in me. And if I go with one of them instead of being an idiot like I was signing with Elektra, the chances of them getting behind it and believing in me-and I could be eating my words a year from now-are better. It's kind of like the lottery, but you can win at a major label. But it would probably be through my own independent label. I want to be able to oversee a lot of the action. I try to keep creative control and all decisions for myself because if you fall on your face it's your fault, not someone else's. It sucks pointing the finger and blaming others.

G: You noted that "Freak of the Week" was already on radio when you signed with Elektra. Can you talk about that a bit more?

B: The song was championed by the program director at 99X, Leslie Frame. He started playing it in heavy rotation, and every label that said they didn't quite get me when for the last six months I was trying to shop it, all of a sudden started calling and saying, "We get you now." Everybody started offering me blank checks.

G: Weren't you skeptical?

B: Of course, but I knew [that] you take a gamble at every major label. You're lucky to get the chance to get your music heard by a lot more people. The best thing you can do is use them the way they're gonna use you to get where you need to go. Use them to get a bigger fan base, to get more exposure quicker. Then it's up to you to you as an entertainer live and as an artist to keep that audience when the label turns its back on you--which is what I was able to do. I was able to keep my audience after they turned their back on the band. It made sense to keep moving forward. Our audience is so dedicated. They're there for me and I'm there for them. They know they're going to get a show, they're going to be entertained.

G: Is there anything you'd do differently with the wisdom of 20-20 hindsight?

B: Yeah, try to learn from my mistakes. Get a big f*cking record deal and not worry so much about keeping the [costs down] because you think you're gonna recoup. You'll never recoup. As much money as they make on their percentage end and the failure rate is like 97%, only 3% of bands ever sell more than 10,000 records. That's insane! 10,000 records isn't going to recoup a major label deal! You're lucky if gold, 500,000 records, will. Most bands only sell 10,000 to 100,000 a record. Only a select few go gold and platinum; you can count 'em on one hand. People think "I gotta keep the costs down," but man, your best reward is getting as much money as you possibly can when you do a major label deal. Play the game. Otherwise, stay in the garage, stay indie, do an indie deal and make your records for cheap and then recoup your costs. You will probably recoup because they won't be spending as much money on you as a major label would. You can't control what a label spends on you. If they want to do a $300,000 video, or if they want to spend $100,000 a song on independent radio payola, they'll do it and that goes against your recoupment. But you can go the indie route and tour and make your money the old fashioned way by touring and holding on to your merch. That's what we did for years. We didn't have a record deal and we made a living for years by selling T-shirts and records out of the back of our van. Do you think we stopped doing that now? Hell no!

G: These days a lot of bands are taking that a step further, doing it all themselves, using the 'Net and bypassing labels entirely. Do you even need labels to succeed these days?

B: I think you can make that choice. You can do a label deal and reap the benefits of cash and getting your song on the radio. An Internet only deal isn't going to get your song on the radio. There's good money to be made in songs-when I do songwriting and producing for other bands there's a hell of a lot more money to be made doing that than being an artist. But it also justifies my being able to be an artist and play live and not worry about the money. There's nothing wrong with shunning the major labels and doing an indie deal. Not everybody gets their ass kissed by labels wanting to sign them. It is a big racket, with money paid to radio stations to play your songs. It's not all about the talent and the art anymore. If you don't subscribe to that and you're not comfortable with it, by all means stay indie. I always will use the Internet. The Internet has been my sole form of communication and promotion that I did on my own while on a major label that was dicking me over on my second record. They weren't doing a damn thing for us but were pumping a half a million dollars into Vitamin C and Vast videos and we were selling as many copies a week as they were. But they wouldn't do a video for us, so I did a video myself and posted it on my Website, for the fans.

G: What's your opinion on publishing-keep it or not?

B: I did a big publishing deal. I got out of it. I cleaned house on everybody. Lawyers, management, record deal. Everything. I have new people and it's all good. I may do another publishing deal, I don't know.

G: What should a band do first when offered any kind of deal?

B: Get a good lawyer, someone who knows how to go through it all with a fine-toothed comb. Musicians aren't the sharpest tools in the shed. Sometimes we're savvy but we can get tricked easily.

G: Is having a good manager important as well?

B: Very important. But I've always tried to self-manage.

G: Isn't it vital to have at least one person in the band involved in the business side of it?

B: Absolutely, you have to be hands-on. Somebody's going to screw you eventually and you'll be going, "Damn, I wish I kept my eye on that."

G: Did anyone give you really bad advice?

B: Yeah, but I don't want to get in trouble!

G: How about good advice?

B: I get good advice all the time. You've got to listen to people, that's how you know the good from the bad.

G: What's the biggest misconception about the music business?

B: That it's honest, and that the artist is making tons of money--because the artist makes less money than anyone involved. Don't think because a guy has a gold record he's living in a mansion and is on MTV Cribs.

G: How much of a factor are luck and timing in success?

B: A lot. Just listen to the music on the radio and decide for yourself which bands were about luck and timing and which ones were about talent.

G: What about image? How much of a factor is that?

B: I think it's very important for an artist to have an identity. That's what sets an artist apart, trying to be different from everyone else. That's what makes us do this. It's not a run of the mill job.

G: You always wanted to do this, haven't you?

B: From the time I was eight years old. If it weren't for KISS I wouldn't be doing what I'm doing now. When you're eight years old and you're taken to a concert, the first concert you've ever been to, and there are all these teenagers and kids in their 20s wearing KISS makeup and passing joints down the aisle and throwing bottle rockets and the whole place is just on fire, you're scared to death. But at the same time it's the greatest f*cking thing you've ever experienced. Nothing else from that point on would ever be the same. It had such an impact.

G: Before Marvelous 3, you had the hard rock band Southgang and Floyd's Funk Revival, which became the Floyds, all very different from the music you're doing now.

B: I guess I kind of got tired of being a follower, not a leader. I really was starting to get into different styles of music and finding myself when I got into my mid-20s. I wanted to do something different. I disbanded Southgang. I was the guitar player but I was the driving force in the band. I put the band together and tried to be the creative visionary. But it didn't work. I was battling with my singer and all that. We love each other now, but it was like a divorce, we couldn't work together anymore and it was better to salvage the friendship. And I didn't want to do that kind of music anymore. I was very happy to go out and explore new territory. I went through a long-term relationship that ended because of my career and I felt I'd really been short-changing my musical career because I was trying to compromise too much for a relationship that was going nowhere. I just wanted to try to be a little bit different and more in tune with my music.

G: Was Floyd's Funk Revival a steppingstone or a detour?

B: It was definitely a detour, I wanted to take some time off. I was burnt from the business, from my former record deal, and things not going the way they should have. I was kind of disheartened. I'm glad I got to take some time off and do that, but it ultimately wasn't what I wanted to do. It seemed like a good idea at the time, and that was my reaction to the Floyds and Floyd's Funk Revival days, I was just trying to do something that was not grunge and not whatever the '90s was offering. It led me to where I am now, it led me to releasing my inhibitions about where I came from. I think I became a good frontman and a good singer and hopefully a good showman. It was a growing period for me.

 G: Let's talk about your approach to recording.

B: My studio has grown over the years and I have a full-fledged facility now where I make all my records. Besides doing the Marvelous 3 records, which were mostly done in my studio, I just did a record for a band on Island/Def jam called Injected. Their debut album will be coming out the first of the year. I record on a rig that's mostly a Pro-Tools and 2" 24-track combination. I'm a technology junkie. I love my toys. I don't do drugs or spend my money on cars and houses. I spend my money on my studio. I love my gear and I love recording and making music so these tools are definitely instrumental, so to speak, in making my art come to life, whether it's my art or someone else's. I'm really hands-on when it comes to all the engineering and editing. I don't use Pro-Tools as a crutch. I say, "What can this machine do for me to make the song happen?" I treat it like an old-fashioned tape recorder. I hit record. A lot of times my best things happen by computer f*ckups, when I don't know what I'm doing but it sounds good. I never read manuals. I just learned on my own. When I got Pro-Tools, I didn't have a manual and I dicked around with it and a month later I had a complete album-that was the original Hey! Album.

G: Do you have a preference between analog and digital?

B: I like them both. The debate is really tired. People need to get over it. All those hardnosed analog-heads don't even realize that half the songs they're hearing on the radio are done digitally. All the old, warm, nice tube analog gear in the world won't make you suck or make you better. If you suck, you suck. If you're good, you can record on a four -track and it will be fine. Nowadays the difference is so minimal. There's a psychological factor; "If I record this on digital it can't be as good." I don't look at it that way. "Freak of the Week" was a top five hit for me and all the bells and whistles and 2" tape and SSL consoles in the world that I used on the retooling of Hey! Album while "Freak of the Week" was blowing up at radio it didn't change the fact that the song was done on 16 track digital Pro-Tools computer rig in my living room with one microphone pre-amp and no console. I mixed it all on the computer. It's the version that was on the radio everywhere. There were great songs all over that record. Maybe some of them are sonically better than others because of the big fancy-schmancy gear. I'm a big fan of old gear, but I don't have the money and the patience to keep up with having a tech come in every five minutes to fix a Neve 80 input console. I have the best 2" 24-track machine ever made, the same machine Smashing Pumpkins used to record Siamese Dream. A lot of big famous records were done on it. It's got a lot of legend in it. But it's got so much legend that the damn thing hardly ever works! I use my Pro-Tools rig most of the time and I get a lot more work done. I get it done faster and better because I'm not waiting on tape rewinding. I don't like to bullshit so it works for me. I'm a 21st century guy.

G: How do you record guitars? Do you like direct, miked, or a combination?

B: I do it all. I use AmpFarm as much as I use my tube microphones through my tube mike pre's through my tube compressors through my custom-made amplifier heads through my 412 cabinets straight to tape! I do it both ways. I have to admit, it's hard to beat the combination of my amp heads and my cabinets with my ribbon mikes. I go through my API mike pre's and then go straight to tape that way. That's how I usually do it. But if you need to get a quick sound because you don't want to lose the inspiration&ldots;I love to work on and write songs while I'm recording. I'll come up with something and I like to record it then and there before I forget it. I don't want to take an hour to get the guitar mikes set up. F*ck that! I record it direct, and if it sounds like shit, at least I have the idea down and can replace it later. I have the chance to live with the hook. For me it's all about how the song translates rather than having great sounds but the song is horrible. Or I lost the magic because I didn't get it down when I had it. "Oh, I got this great guitar tone that sounds like Van Halen I but I can't remember the song I wrote!" No good. So I end up with a combination of both. I work the bass the same way. Half the time I'll end up running it through a mike through an amp and half the time I'll do it direct. There are no rules. If something sounds good, don't question it.

G: What about the drum tracks?

B: A lot of time I'd print them to 2" tape first and then dub them into Pro-Tools and edit them from there. A lot of times I record straight to Pro-Tools with no tape at all, straight in with my mike pre's. The big secret to that is great mikes, great room sound, great drums, great heads, great player's hands. If you've got all that, you're there. Sometimes I trigger the kick and snare but usually blend it with the real drums if I need it to jump out more. I'll use organic drums and programmed drums; I don't have a problem using loops I create out of sampled drum sounds. It all depends on what the song calls for. Not every song has to sound reminiscent of the others and have one drum sound all the way through. I have a wide array of influences so the songs I'm doing, especially now, call for just about anything--which is the beauty and fun of it.

G: Do you feel liberated in a way now that you're working on your own?

B: I feel I can be more wide open because it's like I was given a clean slate. If you're on a roll with something you get into the mode of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it," and that's very limiting to your creativity. If I had a great song that was a light pop song or a minor key heavy song [it was like], "I can't use it because my band isn't that style."

G: You're in active writing mode now?

B: Oh yeah. I've got tons of writing done and what I feel are great hits and I'm looking forward to getting them on tape and seeing if my hype exceeds me! Sometimes you translate it to tape and it doesn't come out the way you thought it would but sometimes it turns out better. Having my own studio gives me the chance to get my creative juices going quicker without having to worry about being on the clock and pay for it. I've already spent all my money on it. It seems like I've invested it wisely.

G: Do you think you'll be dividing your time equally between writing & producing and being an artist?

B: I think I'm going to do both. I don't see why people think you can't. I don't sleep. I spend 24/7 on my music so there's no reason why I can't do a couple of albums a year for artists I believe in. And it doesn't take that long to write a song with someone.

G: Any collaborations in the works?

B: You know I wrote the SR-71 hit ["Right Now"]. I co-wrote two songs on the new Lit record, "Sunny Weather" and "Last Time Again," if they end up calling them that. We also wrote a third song that will be used for a soundtrack.

G: Earlier, you referred to the lack of artist development at labels these days and a radio single-driven mentality. Do you think that's going to change? Where do you think the music business is headed?

B: I think it's going to end up changing a lot. I think a lot of greed and corruption will eat itself and there will be a little revolution where something is going to come along and shake shit up. I don't know what it's going to be and I hope I can be a part of it, but all I know is we've had a decline in musical quality and in giving the public choices. There's not a lot to choose from and I'd like to change that.

G: What are the most important things for young artists to know about the business?

B: I think you should be careful about signing any contracts. Before you get signed don't sign a management contract. Don't sign anything that's going to lock you in to yearly terms. It's asking for trouble because if people can't respect and trust you enough to work with you&ldots;I think you need time to get to know people. Do as much research as you can on people who are telling you what to do. A lot of people will feed your head full of shit when you're good. Don't listen to anybody's hype but your own. It's a very unfaithful business. You've got to believe in what you're doing but don't get carried away.

G: You said you do this 24/7. Is it possible to balance a career and a personal life?

B: Sure, it's done all the time. There are a lot of people out there with kids and dogs and wives and girlfriends. It's definitely do-able. It's harder. I've done it with someone and I've done it without someone. But the people involved have to be very understanding. You have to have someone very strong. It's good to have someone who's there from the beginning so they can appreciate the changes and the dynamics and the demand on your availability. It's great if they're in the business somewhat because they're empathetic to it. My girlfriend is very understanding about it. I can't say that it hasn't been tough and we haven't had our tough times but everybody does.

G: What is the key to band longevity, especially in this musical climate?

B: I think it's about having a bond, a brotherhood. That's what kept us together for 15 years, since we were kids. Being able to deal with each other's idiosyncrasies and quirks. We always had problems with other people who went out with us but never with each other. We were neat freaks and courteous and didn't eat each other's peanut butter or blow smoke in each other's faces or leave dirty dishes out. We were so tuned in with each other and so much alike, it was a beautiful thing and hard to find. We outlasted most of our love relationships. I'm proud of that. That's the biggest accomplishment ever--remaining friends through everything we've been through. Most people don't [in this business].

Gerri Miller has been a music journalist for 20 years, most recently as the executive editor of Metal Edge magazine, a post she held from its inception in 1985 until the end of 1998. Concurrently and since, she has edited and written six special-issue magazines on KISS and one focusing on the 1998 OzzFest. Born and raised in New York, she now lives in Los Angeles, where she contributes daily news reports and video interviews to the Metal Edge Web site, features to KNAC.com and Japan’s In Rock magazine, writes bios and liner notes for bands, and is collaborating on two book projects. She has contributed to Getsigned.com since 1999.