Date: 3/2/2002 4:28 PM Central Standard Time

Message-id: <20020302172802.21239.00001281@mb-mp.aol.com>

To: Gerbur435

Message-id: <20020302071217.03222.00001100@mb-cv.aol.com>

Jeff wrote: Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed

from this sin.

Maccabees 12:39-46 written in 135 b.c. aproximately 165 years before Jesus chose his 12 Apostles. THAT'S THE REAL POINT JEFF! ROTFLOL, BAHAHAHAHA!

Gerbur Responded as follows: No, that's not the real point. A man cannot atone for another man's sin.

Dave RE: The Bible disagrees with you Gerbur. Christ provided the sacrifice, the prayers of those saved but not perfectly sanctified are aided by the prayers of the living so that they may obtain a better resurrection (2 Maccabees 12:39-46)

SUPER SAVED CATHOLIC DAVE

Subject: Re: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

Date: 3/2/2002 7:19 PM Central Standard Time

Message-id: <20020302201927.00976.00001211@mb-fh.aol.com>

<<

No, that's not the real point. A man cannot atone for another man's sin.

>>

<<

The Bible dissagrees with you Gerbur. Christ provided the sacrifice, the prayers of those saved but not perfectly sanctified are aided by the prayers of the living so that they may obtain a better resurrection (2 Maccabees 12:39-46)

>>

Gerbur RE: Good night! Where in the world did you get this disinformation?

Dave RE: Sound foriegn to you Gerbur? That's because you have a "66" book incomplete canon and no Apostolic Tradition to teach you with infallibility the totality of Divine Revelation which is the Word of God and the fulness of the Gospel. You have a truncated version of Christianity. Think how foreign the Bible would be to a Communist Chinese who only have copies of a few epistles and a gospel. Think how much more they would learn about divine revelation if they got a hold of more inspired books of the Bible. That is the case for you! To you it is "disinformation" because the whole gospel message has been hidden from you by the god of this world as it is written:

"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God." 2 Cor 4:3-4

Subject: Re: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

Date: 3/4/2002 3:06 AM Central Standard Time

Message-id: <20020304040617.28766.00002599@mb-fo.aol.com>

2 Maccabaeus 12:43 He (Judas, after warning the people against sin) also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very honorably, taking account of the resurrection. 44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

In this Passage, the very context gives no indication that this was a doctrine of the Jewish faith come down from God. Rather, Judas is clearly being commended by Jason (the most likely author), in hindsight, for the honorable thought (good intention) he displayed by taking up a collection as an offering for the godly who had fallen asleep.

Despite the lack of Doctrinal authority in this Passage, the Roman Catholic Church appears to use this Passage (as if it were divine doctrine) and founded a whole theology of Purgatory and offering money for the dead based on a 'kind thought' of Judas.

Subject: Re: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

Date: 3/6/2002 7:12 PM Central Standard Time

Message-id: <20020306201223.19684.00000020@mb-fu.aol.com>

2 Maccabaeus 12:43 He (Judas, after warning the people against sin) also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very honorably, taking account of the resurrection. 44 For if he were not expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

In this Passage, the very context gives no indication that this was a doctrine of the Jewish faith come down from God.

And how did you decide it's context was not of the Jewish faith come down from God? You don't understand the history of the Jewish faith very well! Judaism still practices prayer for the dead so that they might receive a better resurrection. It is called "Kadish" and it involves saying a prayer for a departed

loved one for 11 months.

Rather, Judas is clearly being commended by Jason (the possible author), in hindsight, for the honorable thought (good intention) he displayed by taking up a collection as an offering for the godly who had fallen asleep.

That's not what the passage say's. You have a huge theological problem here. Since you are bound by Sola Scriptura you have no infallible authority to tell you what books of the Bible are inspired. The Bible does not name it's own canon and yet you are bound by Sola Scriptura leaving you with no infallible

authority to tell you what is and is not scripture. That is a theological bankruptcy! Therefore, you have to rely on tradition that is not apostolic to tell you what books of the Bible are inspired. Since Protestant Tradition teaches you that Maccabees is not inspired you accept that tradition as authoritative. This leaves you with two big problems. If you reject Maccabees as inspired by tradition you violate the very foundation of your belief system and that is the Bible is the final authority on matters of faith and morals. The second problem you have is that the books of 1st & 2nd Maccabees, Judith, Wisdom, Sirach (Ecclesiasticus), Baruch, and Tobit had been considered inspired by the Church 1500 years before the Reformation. IOn addition, prior to the Synod of Jamnia 90 a.d. ( a Jewish Council made up of Pharisees) those books (called the Deuteroconanical books of the Old Testament and not the Apocrypha) were considered inspired for more then 200 years prior. What do you think the Jewish Holiday of Hanukkah is celebrating? It is the Maccabean revolt perfectly recorded in the Boooks of Maccabees! So to say the books of 1st and 2nd Maccabees is uninspired and not Jewish doctrine is simply absurd. You have allowed prejudice to rule over reason.

Despite the lack of Doctrinal authority in this Passage,

Once again, by what authority and criteria do you reject the books of 1st and 2nd Maccabees as inspired and conanical? By what authority do accept the books of Ecclesiastes and Esther as inspired and conanical? You cannot say the scriptures (which is YOUR final authority) because the scriptures does not name

it's own canon.

The Roman Catholic Church appears to use this Passage (as if it were divine doctrine) and founded a whole theology of Purgatory and offering money for the dead based on a 'kind thought' of Judas.

The Catholic Church which is the manifold wisdom of God (Ephes 3:) and the Pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15) say's the books of Maccabees is Divine doctrine because it is! It is very clear from the book of Maccabees that the concept of Purgatory was something believed and practiced by Judaism long

before Christ and the Church. Today, Judaism still practices praying for the dead it is called "Kadish" and it is part of Jewish Sacred tradition called the "Midrash" Both the Catholic and the Orthodox Church believe in Purgatory and practice praying for the dead. You reject it not on the authority of scripture but on the authority of your own traditions which is rooted in the Protestant Reformation and not the Apostolic Traditon (2Tim 2:15) or

Jewish Tradition

Subj: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

Date: 3/6/02 8:12:02 PM CST

Subject: Re: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

Date: 3/7/2002 1:01 AM Central Standard Time

Message-id: <20020307020140.15557.00002187@mb-fi.aol.com>

Hi Dave,

I admire your faith and dedication to what you believe is true. I will not disagree with you for the sake of debate - that would be a total waste of my time.

I too am firmly committed to my faith - which is defined in the Gospel of Christ / The New Covenant.

You brought up and stated many points - many of which are unrelated directly to the reference from 2 Maccabaeus 12:43.

Each point you brought up is a complete debate in itself. To answer all your points with all the documentation required to back it up, would take at least 20 full messages.

I have all the necessary documentation, and I would be most pleased to publicly display this evidence on this board in a full debate with you, if you desire to continue. But to list it all here at one time would be totally unrealistic.

What I will attempt to do here is capsulize the best I can with solid responses to all the points you brought up - but it may take several messages.

2 Maccabaeus 12:43 He (Judas, after warning the people against sin) also took up a collection, man by man, to the amount of two thousand drachmas of silver, and sent it to Jerusalem to provide for a sin offering. In doing this he acted very honorably, taking account of the resurrection. 44 For if he were not

expecting that those who had fallen would rise again, it would have been superfluous and foolish to pray for the dead. 45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought. Therefore he made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin.

In this Passage, the very context gives no indication that this was a doctrine of the Jewish faith come down from God.

And how did you decide it's context was not of the Jewish faith come down from God?

You don't understand the history of the Jewish faith very well! Judaism still practices prayer for the dead so that they might receive a better resurrection. It is called "Kadish" and it involves saying a prayer for a departed loved one for 11 months.

>>

There is nothing in the Kadish about praying for the dead that they might receive a better resurrection. I quote from a Jewish site regarding the Kadish - prayer included. Quote as follows:

Glorified and sanctified be God's great name throughout the world which He has created according to His will. May He establish His kingdom in your lifetime and during your days, and within the life of the entire House of Israel, speedily and soon; and say, Amen.

May His great name be blessed forever and to all eternity.

Blessed and praised, glorified and exalted, extolled and honored, adored and lauded be the name of the Holy One, blessed be He, beyond all the blessings and hymns, praises and consolations that are ever spoken in the world; and say, Amen.

May there be abundant peace from heaven, and life, for us

and for all Israel; and say, Amen.

He who creates peace in His celestial heights, may He create peace for us and for all Israel; and say, Amen.

Having read the translation of the Kaddish Prayer, one should realize that, although Jewish Law requires that the Kaddish be recited during the first eleven months following the death of a loved one by prescribed mourners, and on each anniversary of the death (the "Yahrtzeit"), and by custom in the State of Israel by

all Jews on the Tenth of Tevet ("Yom HaKaddish HaKlali'), there is no reference, no word even, about death in the prayer!

http://www.ou.org/yerushalayim/kadish.htm

In the entire Old Testament, "mourning" and "weeping bitterly", is all that is indicated as regards the custom of "mourning for the dead". There is no mention of "ritual prayer" or "penitent" mourning in any of Passage. "Ritual"? Yes, but not "ritual prayer". For instance, a certain number of days were required in "mourning" for someone who died in the Hebrew custom. This was to show honor and respect for the deceased. No money was ever suggested as being given to atone for sins of the deceased.

In New Testament times, if a family member died, the Jewish custom would be to hire professional mourners to mourn and weep bitterly for the family member who died. The only money given in this scenario was to pay the professional mourners.

If such atonement is made for the dead by the Jews, then it certainly is a tradition that has no Divine authority – or God would have stated it in the Plenary (word for word) Inspired Scripture. For Holy Scripture records no such mandate or activity on the part of the Jews for the dead.

Rather, Judas is clearly being commended by Jason (the possible author), in hindsight, for the honorable thought (good intention) he displayed by taking up a collection as an offering for the godly who had fallen asleep.

That's not what the passage say's.

2 Maccabaeus 12:45 But if he was looking to the splendid reward that is laid up for those who fall asleep in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.

You have a huge theological problem here. Since you are bound by Sola Scriptura you have no infallible authority to tell you what books of the Bible are inspired. The Bible does not name it's own canon and yet you are bound by Sola Scriptura leaving you with no infallible authority to tell you what is and is not scripture. That is a theological bankruptcy!

God entrusted Israel with His Words to them:

Therefore, the RCC has no authority - or historical knowledge - to determine the extent of the OT canon. God gave that authority to the Jews.

The ‘legitimate faith of the Jews’ were the Pharisees - See: Matthew 23:2-3.

While the Pharisees themselves were not true to the Faith, they represented the very:

a) Scriptures,

b) Hope (Messiah/Resurrection/Kingdom to come), and

c) Foundational Doctrines (demons/angels/heaven/hell etc)

that the Pharisaic religion inherited from their prophetic forefathers - and of which Lord Jesus and the Apostles passed on to us as Divine Doctrine.

And it was the Sacred Scriptures of the Pharisees [Hebrew Canon] that Lord Jesus and the Epistle Writers quoted from as their authority to prove and define the Gospel of Salvation - New Covenant in Christ.

I say "Canon" because the two schools of Pharisees at the time of Christ [Hillel and Shammai] considered the complete set of Hebrew Scriptures as Sacred/Inspired at the time of Christ - except for two books in the "Writings/Kethubim". This is really far less disagreement than Christians today have over the Biblical "Canon". I can easily verify this if you are not familiar with the history.

I am quite familiar with Jamnia (Jabneh). No books were added or subtracted at Jamnia. The discrepancy over the two books was resolved and the entire Hebrew Canon that existed at the latest 100BC was organized into three parts and ratified at Jamnia.

If you desire evidence for this, I have it in my computer. I will provide it for you.

While,

• some Apocryphal writings are eluded to in the NT Scriptures,
• and Greek Poets are quoted (Acts 17:28; 1 Corinthians 15:33; Titus 1:12)
• and Non-Deutero Books are quoted in Jude,

NONE of the writings listed above were ever quoted, referenced, or eluded to, as a Divine Authority to Prove and Define Gospel of Christ/The New Covenant.

ONLY the Hebrew Scriptures were quoted up to the Prophet Malachi by Christ and the Epistle writers as the Divine Authority to Prove and Define the Gospel of Christ/The New Covenant.

NO Apocryphal Book was determined by the Pharisees to be Sacred - although they had high regard for the Apocryphal Books as Jewish History.

They even considered at least one of the writers to have at a type of inspiration – "Sirach". And to be quite honest there are hundreds of people recorded in the OT and NT that said things that were inspired - even today. But these did not record any new Divine Ordinance like a divinely appointed prophet or leader over Israel did. Maccabaeus historically states this very thing:

1 Maccabaeus 9:27 So there was great distress in Israel, such as had not been since the time that prophets ceased to appear among them.

An authoritative prophet of God guiding Israel was only a memory of their distant past. They were looking for another prophet to appear...

1 Maccabaeus 4:46 And stored the stones in a convenient place on the temple hill until a prophet should come to tell what to do with them.

This is another indication the people were waiting for another prophet to arise.

1 Maccabaeus 14:41 The Jews and their priests have resolved that Simon should be their leader and high priest forever, until a trustworthy prophet should arise.

WHY? Because Jewish History and Tradition records that God's Presence (His Spirit) departed Israel after Malachi. So, Israel was no longer being guided as a nation by Prophets and God appointed leaders. In other words, God was not sending them any more divine revelation. He was through with Israel for the time being.

While the Septuagint - from Alexandria - did include the Apocrypha, the only historical evidence available only shows that the Hebrew Canon was considered to be SACRED as can be witnessed by Philo from Alexandria, the Book of Hebrews (written in Alexandrian style) and the Jewish Historian and Pharisee, Josephus Flavius. These sources never quoted or considered any Apocryphal books to be Inspired Authority to define and prove the faith.

This Jewish History agrees with Jesus and the Epistle Writers, because they only quoted up to Malachi as their divine authority to define and prove the Gospel.

Subject: Re: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

Date: 3/7/2002 1:39 AM Central Standard Time

Message-id: <20020307023953.15557.00002197@mb-fi.aol.com>

While the Jews also considered the "Oral Tradition/Law" just as Sacred as the Hebrew Canon, Christ Jesus set the boundaries of the OT Canon by condemning the "Oral Law" as nothing more than the teachings of men, See Mark 7:6. Mark 7:6 is a quote from Isaiah (see context) - that put heavy burdens on the backs of the Jews, See: Mtt23:2-4 and Lke11:46.

There were over 600 such regulations and laws in the "Oral Law" that the Pharisees lorded over the Jewish people. Obviously Lord Jesus was not scolding his Father in Heaven for these burdensome regulations and laws.

The Jews were totally correct as regards to the Hebrew Canon (which today is the Tanakh) - as Jewish History and Scripture support as God's Word.

Lord Jesus was totally correct in disapproving of the Jewish reverence toward the "oral law" - [tradition] – as Divine Revelation from God - which today is the "Talmud".

No man is perfect, and we do make mistakes. The Jews are no exception. Therefore, is not LORD JESUS qualified to correct the Jews, and restrict the boundaries of God's Word to the Hebrew Canon of which God entrusted with the Jews (Romans 3:1-4)?

Just as the Jews tried to add their "tradition" to the Holy Scriptures of the Old Testament (although they never placed their "oral law" within the OT Canon by Divine Providence),

some of the Early Church Fathers desired to place their oral tradition on par with the Holy Scriptures of the New Testament

(although they never placed their "oral law" within the NT Canon by Divine Providence).

Lord Jesus, The Prophets and The Apostles spoke and wrote direct revelation from God through the Holy Spirit as the FOUNDATION. [ 1Cor3:11; Eph2:20 ]

The Promise of the Holy Spirit was to provide the Apostles the Divine ability to remember everything Christ Jesus said to them while with them. They were to preach on the housetops what Christ told them in secret.

The Prophets and Christ Jesus, and the Apostles make up the FOUNDATION - Christ Jesus being the Chief Cornerstone: 1Cor3:11; Eph2:20. No man has the right to add MORE FOUNDATION onto that which was already laid.

Lord Jesus and the Apostles never quoted or referenced the oral law or oral tradition as their authority to form or define the Gospel of Christ. They always used, as their Divine authority, the HOLY SCRIPTURES as the FOUNDATION. How can a Christian today to anything less than Christ and the Super Apostles?

Also, Lord Jesus and The Epistle Writers knew full well, by revelation from Christ, that many were, and soon would be, trying perverting the Word of God and deceiving many. How do we know the Apostles were concerned about this? Read for yourself:

Matt 24:10-13 "At that time many will [[Turn Away from the Faith]] and will betray each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, [[But He who (Stands Firm to the end) will be Saved]]."

Galatians 1:8 "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!"

Jude 3 . . . I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the Faith that was once for all entrusted to the Saints. 4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the Grace of God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. niv

2 Tim 2:17,18 "Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have [wondered away from the truth]. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the Faith of some."

2 Pet 1:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Sovereign Lord who {Bought them} bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their Condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

Therefore the Written Word is our only rule of Faith that we can rely on and measure what others say as being Truth or False Doctrine just as the Bereans did:

So, the Written WORD had authority over even the Apostles, according to the Apostle Paul. This strikes in contrast to the Catholic Church's teaching that all men must be subject to the Roman Pontiff.

Although the RCC now teaches "Universal Salvation" for all those of good will according to Vatican ll (a NEW INFALLIBLE TEACHING), they still hold to the teaching that no one is to question the authority of the Magisterium as INFALLIBLE in interpreting the Word of God.

Evidently, there are Catholics today who are unaware that the RCC has taught from ancient times (over 1600 years! - since the fourth century) that anyone professing Faith in Christ who were not subject to the Roman Pontiff and the Roman Catholic Church would not be saved and would burn in the Lake of Fire.

Not to mention that any non-Christians are not saved as well.

This is a fact even though, in most recent times, the RCC now states that Salvation is universal - not only for those Christians who do not belong the to RCC, but also that even non-Christians may be saved if they did so ignorantly and in good will. For instance:

For this reason the Council, after affirming the centrality of the Paschal Mystery, went on to declare that "this applies not only to Christians but to all people of good will in whose hearts grace is secretly at work. Since Christ died for everyone, and since the ultimate calling of each of us comes from God and is therefore a universal one, we are obliged to hold that the Holy Spirit offers everyone the possibility of

ROMANS 2:14-16 When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these though not having the law, are a law to themselves, they show that what the law requires is written in their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them on the day when, according to my gospel, GOD, through JESUS CHRIST, will judge the secret thoughts of all!

In all honesty then, I will agree that the New Infallible Position that the RCC teaches about Universal Salvation has a ring of truth to it.

However, the RCC position goes too far. There teaching that Muslims and other religions have the same God of the Bible is totally false.

We must, therefore, be careful not to give anyone false hope - as if one can remain in a religion that teaches against God's Word and Spirit of LOVE and of Christ Jesus and still be saved.

We must not embrace other religions - as if they represented God as well - when they obviously do not teach the Biblical attributes of God or His WILL. For most religions teach an impersonal God that we must work our way to. But no one can ever do enough good works to boast before God that we are righteous enough to enter His Kingdom.

Rather, we must be diligent as Ambassadors of Christ to proclaim the Gospel - just as Philip (by the Spirit of God) did to the Ethiopian Eunuch who was seeking God in his heart.

We all know that a person, left to his own devices, will most likely choose selfish greed over self-sacrifice and LOVE. But if only that person had known the dire consequences of his/her evil actions, and of the Eternal LIFE God gives to those who know Christ and the Gospel - that is where WE come in as messengers (angels) of Christ to bring the Holy Gospel to them.

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death. 13 Even in laughter the heart may ache, and joy may end in grief. niv

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? niv

Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies. niv

Therefore, we must be diligent to follow Christ (the Law of Love) by Faith - despite the evil inclination of our hearts toward selfishness. And, we must be very diligent to teach this saving Gospel to those we who are lost around us - for God holds us responsible for not warning others or their doom:

That is why the Holy Scriptures reveal that the Written Word has THE Authority.

Christians today do not, and should not, rely on tradition either, because The Apostles told us that what is already written was all that was necessary to make us wise for Salvation in more than a few Passages. For instance:

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. kjv

the Roman Catholic Church appears to use this Passage (as if it were divine doctrine) and founded a whole theology of Purgatory and offering money for the dead based on a 'kind thought' of Judas.

The Catholic Church which is the manifold wisdom of God (Ephes 3:) and the Pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15)

>>

You stated correctly concerning the fact the Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth.

Do you know what it means?

What is the Truth? – "The Truth" is the Gospel of Christ, SEE: verse 16.

"Church" means: "called out ones". In other words, The Body of Believers make up the "Church" - God's household. Those who are called to follow Christ: Christians.

And wherever these called out ones are gathered throughout the world, God - by the Holy Spirit - calls Godly leaders and teachers to proclaim that Sacred Written Word to them - just as Christ and the Apostles did.

The Christian body is to determine whether these leaders and teachers are really an authority of God by testing everything they say by Scripture. If these leaders and teachers preach to them that they are to follow and pray to or depend on anyone but God the Father in Heaven through Christ Jesus our only Mediator, Redeemer and Savior, then we should reject those false prophets.

1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

All True Christians are "Christians" (Body of Believers) because they understand and have come to believe this Truth - the Gospel of Salvation/The New Covenant in Christ. To listen to and follow Christ.

These True Christians listen to Christ as their Shepherd, and they follow HIM. They do not add onto the Gospel, or pray to the deceased or angels, or go to Mary and pray to her for their salvation - because Christ told them to come to HIM and to pray to God in Heaven through His Name.

Therefore, the "Church" is the Pillar and foundation of this "Truth", for how could they be anything else and still be "Christian"? For how were they "called out"? Were they not called out by the Gospel to follow Christ and look to HIM ONLY as our Mediator, Intercessor, Redeemer and Savior in Heaven who meets all our needs? Therefore every Christian that makes up the Church of Christ lives out that very testimony of Christ in their lives.

Hebrews 7:23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore He is able to

SAVE COMPLETELY those who

COME TO GOD THROUGH HIM, because

HE always lives to INTERCEDE for them.

one who is HOLY, BLAMELESS,

PURE, SET APART from

Now, if the RCC teaches contrary to the Gospel by adding:

• Mary as our redeemer, savior, mediator next to Christ
• prayers to saints and
• Purgatory
• Works to keep us justified

to the Gospel of Salvation in Christ, then I will not listen to them.

That is exactly what the RCC has done. Therefore, Scripture reveals the RCC to be a FALSE PROPHET. They have changed the Gospel and stand eternally condemned!

Galatians 1:8 "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel

other than the one we preached to you - let him be eternally condemned!"

How do we test whether a Church authority is preaching a True or False Gospel? We do it the same way the Noble New Testament saints did it. We open up the HOLY SCRIPTURE and read them to see if what these supposed leaders are saying is really there.

1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Only Christ is praised as being worthy in the Book of Revelation because HE ALONE was sinless and redeemed mankind from sin and death to be children of God.

The host of heaven do not surround Jesus and Mary - as the Catholic Church teaches. Rather, ONLY THE FATHER, AND THE SON are surrounded by the heavenly host in heaven in all of Revelation.

On that Great Day, who or what will judge us?

Which books do you think those were? Well, they had to include the very words of Christ:

And those words were written down throughout the New Testament and the Four Gospels. For Christ said:

John 14:25 All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Those Books also had to include the Hebrew Scriptures (the Old Testament Prophecies):

Therefore, everyone will be judged by what is written in ALL those Books:

2Tim3:14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have know the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for Salvation through Faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

For the FOUNDATION of the Christian faith is Christ and was revealed to us by: The Prophets, The Apostles, and Christ Jesus himself – being the Chief Cornerstone:

1 Corinthians 3:11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. 19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizen with God’s people and members of God’s household, 20 built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the Chief Cornerstone. 21 In Him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.

Ephesians 3:4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit of God’s holy Apostles and Prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the Gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, member together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Churches were scattered everywhere throughout the world, but united in the Foundation – which is Christ.

Sincerely,

Steven

Subject: Re: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

Date: 3/18/2002 11:54 AM Central Standard Time

Message-id: <20020318125454.11038.00003068@mb-cu.aol.com>

Engage wrote:

God entrusted Israel with His Words to them:

Romans 3:1 What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision?  2 Much in every way!  First of all, they have been entrusted with the very

words of God.  3 What if some did not have Faith?  Will their lack of faith nullify God's Faithfulness?  4 Not at all!  Let God be true, and every man a liar.

Therefore, the RCC has no authority - or historical knowledge - to determine the extent of the OT canon.  God gave that authority to the Jews.

>>

Wheaties RE: Your initial point has several problems. First of all, the Jews did not decide the NT canon, they in fact explicitely condemned it at the Council of Jamnia where you get your OT Canon.

Second of all, while the Jews did get the word of God, there are several sources in the OT which are cited which are NOT in the OT. Accordingly, there were other books which were used for the writing of the OT (just as the NT quotes some, but not all of the OT books)

There is no table of contents in the NT which would tell us that we are holding, in fact, the entirety of the OT in our Bibles.

In addition, while some of the OT works are cited in the NT, several of the OT works are not cited at all, and several writings are cited in the NT which are not found in the OT at all such as two quotes from a Cretian poet and Enoch.

And finally, there is no indication in the OT that the NT is inspired either.

While Peter's epistles compare Paul's writings to scripture, there is no book which declares Peter's epistles to be scripture and accordingly that endorsement is only correct if there is proof that Peter's epistle is inspired, when in fact, we have no internal evidence to prove that.

Finally, even if the Word of God is proclaimed inspired within the text itself, the Bible is not the only book which makes that claim. The Koran, and Book of Mormon likewise make such claims.

So, your entire argument is merely status quo, this is what we have, therefore this is all we've got. There is no actual evidence within your argument which can show to any reasonable thinker, that the books you are citing from are, in fact, inspired by God.

Subject: Re: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

Date: 3/19/2002 4:39 AM Central Standard Time

Message-id: <20020319053916.24761.00003516@mb-mv.aol.com>

Your initial point has several problems. First of all, the Jews did not decide the NT canon, they in fact explicitly condemned it at the Council of Jamnia where you get your OT Canon.

Engage RE: Agreed! If you read the context of my message, and the context of Romans 3:1-4, you would have understood that the OT is what I was referring to.

Second of all, while the Jews did get the word of God, there are several sources in the OT which are cited which are NOT in the OT. Accordingly, there were other books which were used for the writing of the OT (just as the NT quotes some, but not all of the OT books)

Engage RE: That does not surprise me, since Paul even quoted Greek poets three times in his Epistles. Christians today will even quote historical or religious sources other than the Bible to add insight. Not everything quoted makes it Holy Sacred Scripture.

I give further insight into this, and your questions regarding

"which books are canonical for the OT" and, "Moses' Seat"

in the following message to Dave – links here provided:

As for the NT, I believe that those godly men in the Church who gathered together and determined the canonicity of the NT Books had the Historical background knowledge available to them to make such decisions with a very high degree of accuracy. I accept their judgment as well as the faithfulness of God.

Finally, even if the Word of God is proclaimed inspired within the text itself, the Bible is not the only book which makes that claim. The Koran, and Book of Mormon likewise make such claims.

Engage RE: My faith is based on fact and evidence [Hebrews 11:1,2]. And the fact is, only the Bible has prophecies - many of which are quite detailed - that came true 100% of the time so far.

No other so called, "Holy Book", can make that claim. Not only that, but the Bible has shown its credibility by its uncanny historical accuracy over a period of thousands of years.

There are other internal evidences in Scripture that give me reason to believe what it says over all other Books.

Thank you for your messages.

Sincerely,

Steven

Subject: Re: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

Date: 3/7/2002 11:44 PM Central Standard Time

Message-id: <20020308004427.05950.00000551@mb-fo.aol.com>

Hi Ultramonta,

ENGAGE, give it up. Admit the Truth of the Catholic Religion. Confession IS good for the soul. Confess how misled you have been (by God knows whom) to set up this false attack on Christ's Holy Church. Unburden yourself and gain the true liberty of a Christian! SAY "ALLELUIA!!" SAY "AMEN!!"

Since the "kaddish" is "not Scriptural" and is Rabbinic - occurring at a late date of 100 B.C.E.- this proves my point that the Kadish was not a divine doctrine come down from God. HOW does it prove this?

1. If the Kaddish is "not Scriptural", then; that means it is purely tradition, because Christ Jesus himself condemned the Jewish Oral Tradition as nothing more than the teachings of men.
2. The Kaddish was written quite some time AFTER the Prophet Malachi. This is significant, because that would mean that the Kadish "Tradition" was created during the time Maccabaeus said the Prophets had ceased to be among them.
3. Therefore, how could there be any direct revelation from God regarding a New Divine Ordinance such as "praying for the dead" and giving money and charitable acts to save them?
4. Jewish history confirms point "2)" by documenting that God's presence (His Holy Spirit) had departed from Israel after Malachi.
5. And point 2 and 3 agree with Jesus and the New Testament Epistles - For they Only Quoted SCRIPTURE as their authority. They never once used Tradition as their authority.
6. God has already defined - throughout the OT and NT Scriptures - that a man is saved or condemned by his own faith towards God.
7. The Kaddish itself is a prayer that says absolutely nothing about praying for the dead. That idea was invented by the traditions of the Rabbi's.

Therefore, my statement stands, which is:

In this Passage [2 Maccabaeus 12:43], the very context gives no indication that this was a doctrine of the Jewish faith come down from God.

Look at the Passage. Does it say anywhere in the context that this giving money for the atonement of the dead was a doctrine from God? Or does the author record that this was a holy and pious thought of Judas?

Sincerely,

Steven

Subject: Re: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

Date: 3/8/2002 1:01 AM Central Standard Time

Message-id: <20020308020128.17888.00000236@mb-fb.aol.com>

Engage,

After I demolished your last argument--which was your analysis of the words of the Kaddish (which appears nowhere in Scripture, btw)--on the basis that jews recognize that praying the kaddish for the dead helps merit remission of punishment for sins just as in Catholicism, you started anew with this argument:

"Hi Ultramonta,You state the following after quoting a question and answer session on a Jewish site regarding the Kaddish..:"

ENGAGE, give it up. Admit the Truth of the Catholic Religion....

Engage wrote: Utramonta, what did you prove by quoting the question and answer dialogue? Did you refute anything I said? No. Why not? Read the concluding remarks of that question and answer session:

"The kaddish is not Scriptural, it is Rabbinic. It was composed in Mishnaic times circa 100 B.C.E. The Jewish religion came before catholic and therefore the custom of kaddish and that of charity was from the Jewish religion." Since the "kaddish" is "not Scriptural" and is Rabbinic occurring at a late date of 100 B.C.E., this proves my point that the Kadish was not a divine doctrine come down from God. HOW does it prove this?

1) If the Kaddish is "not Scriptural", then; that means it is purely tradition. And Christ Jesus himself condemned the Jewish Oral Tradition as nothing more than the teachings of men."

Ultramonta RE:

WRONG. Jesus commended the Teachings of the pharisees who spoke ex cathedra Mosei in Matt. 23:1-3, even though he realized that they might personally not be living good lives. So Tradition that is pronounced by the Teaching Authority IS BINDING! And your point all along had been that prayers for the dead were not part of the jewish religion. WRONG and that is from a Jewish website. I will list that site again for all to see you were flat out wrong no matter how much you now want to change the question after the fact. The Yarzheit Website: http://www.yahrzeit.org/qak.html

Subject: Re: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

Date: 3/8/2002 12:52 PM Central Standard Time

Message-id: <20020308135228.28459.00000622@mb-cg.aol.com>

Hi Ultramonta,

Engage,

After I demolished your last argument--which was your analysis of the words of the Kaddish (which appears nowhere in Scripture, btw)--on the basis that jews recognize that praying the kaddish for the dead helps merit remission of punishment for sins just as in Catholicism, you started anew with this argument:

Notwithstanding, neither the Kaddish, nor the idea of praying for the dead and giving money and charity for their salvation is taught in the Pentateuch or by any of the prophets.

Utramonta, what did you prove by quoting the question and answer dialogue? Did you refute anything I said? No. Why not? Read the concluding remarks of that question and answer session:

"The kaddish is not Scriptural, it is Rabbinic." It was composed in Mishnaic times circa 100 B.C.E. The Jewish religion came before catholic and therefore the customof kaddish and that of charity was from the Jewish religion."

Since the "kaddish" is "not Scriptural" and is Rabbinic occuring at a late date of 100 B.C.E., this proves my point that the Kadish was not a divine doctrine come down from God. HOW does it prove this?

1) If the Kaddish is "not Scriptural", then; that means it is purely tradition. And Christ Jesus himself condemned the Jewish Oral Tradition as nothing more than the teachings of men."

WRONG. Jesus commended the Teachings of the pharisees who spoke ex cathedra Mosei in Matt. 23:1-3, even though he realized that they might personally not be living good lives. So Tradition that is pronounced by the Teaching Authority IS BINDING!

Engage RE:

Lord Jesus never - in any Passage in Scripture - commended the tradition of the Pharisees - although he recognized the authority of the Pharisees to sit in Moses' seat.

The Passage that you refer to does not in the least indicate that Christ commended the Pharisees for their traditions - as the very next verse indicates.

Look at the Passage in context and tell me where you see Jesus commending the Traditions of the Pharisees:

Matthew 23: 1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3 So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up Heavy Loads and put them on men's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

If you ever skimmed through this "Oral Law", you will notice that their are over six hundred regulations, ordinances and laws that, in many cases, are outright ridiculous. Such ordinances amounted to nothing more than legalism which, in practice, place heavy loads on the backs of the Jews - just as we saw in verse 4 of Matthew 23 as follows:

Jewish Oral Teachings (that is the context) are "heavy loads" (verse 4 above). For the "oral Law" contains hundreds of laws and restrictions (many being totally ridiculous) that put the Jewish people under a heavy burden.

So, Ultramonta, are you are saying that Lord Jesus upheld as Divine Authority these hundreds of regulations and restrictions contained in the "Oral Law"???

Also, if you read the rest of Matthew 23:14-25 you will see that Lord Jesus gives more than just a couple examples of how the oral tradition is false. See also: Matthew 15:1-10; Mark 7:9-13 and Luke 11:37-52.

The "oral Law" of the Pharisees was nothing more than the traditions of men that, in actuality, desecrated the "KEY" of salvation for the Jews.

Luke 11:52 Woe to you experts in the Law, because you have taken away the Key of Knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.

Lord Jesus condemned the ORAL Law as nothing more than the "traditions of men": This was a general condemnation of the Oral Law as nothing more than the traditions of men.

Mark 7:6 He [Jesus] replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

"These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 7 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men."

Matthew 23:4 "They tie up heavy loads and put them on men's shoulders..."

Luke 11:46 Jesus replied, "And you experts in the Law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them."

I say again, Lord Jesus is NOT scolding God His Father for placing these over 600 burdensome regulations, ordinances and restrictions on the backs of the Jews. Rather, He is condemning the Oral Teachings as nothing more than the traditions of men.

And your point all along had been that prayers for the dead were not part of the jewish religion.

Christ Jesus and the Apostles themselves (as the Foundation) only relied on Holy Scripture as their authority. I have every sound reason to believe that this would have to be the case for us normal Christians as well.

Otherwise we end up like the Jews under the authority of a "pharisee-like" authority that puts "tradition" above the Word of God. And this is what the Roman Catholic Church has done with the Gospel of Salvation as well.

In either case, the Door of Salvation is being shut for the sake of Tradition.

Sincerely,

Steven

Subject: Re: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

Date: 3/9/2002 9:55 PM Central Standard Time

Message-id: <20020309225550.25241.00000504@mb-ca.aol.com>

Hi Steve,

Hi Dave,

I admire your faith and dedication to what you believe is true. I will not disagree with you for the sake of debate - that would be a total waste of my time.

I too am firmly committed to my faith - which is defined in the Gospel of Christ / The New Covenant.

In this Passage, the very context gives no indication that this was a doctrine of the Jewish faith come down from God.

And how did you decide it's context was not of the Jewish faith come down from God?

Look at the Passage.  Does it say anywhere in the context that this giving money for the atonement of the dead was a doctrine from God?  Or does the author record that this was a holy and pious thought of Judas?

Dear Engage: I appreciate your response to my argument: I would like to start out by reminding you of the following passage of scripture:

"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Tim 3:16

The above scripture tells us that "ALL" scripture is not only God breathed but useful for correcting, teaching, and training in righteousness so that the man of God is thoroughlly equipped for every good work. So what is in question here is whether or not the books of Maccabees are inspired or not. I steak my soul that they are! And if they are then your point that 2 Maccabees 12:43 says "it was a holy and pious thought" must be seen in the light of divine revelation. If the author of 2 Maccabees was inspired by the Holy Spirit then by virtue of 2 Timothy 3:16 we can say this is useful teaching for the training of righteousness so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. Therefore, making atonement for the dead by prayers

and sacrifices is part of being "thoroughly equipped for works of righteousness." Holy and pious thoughts lead to Holy and pious works of righteousness by virtue of faith and inspiration.

Engage wrote:  There is nothing in the Kadish about praying for the dead that they might receive a better resurrection.  I quote from a Jewish site regarding the Kadish - prayer included.  Quote as follows:...

Qoutation is noted:

It is true that the Kaddish prayer is very different then Catholic prayers for those departed but the point I am making it is still a prayer for the dead practiced by the Jewish faith.; Evangelicals do not practice any of this. You assert that prayers for the dead was something not found in scripture, however, this is circular reasoning; if 2 Maccabees is indeed inspired then it is mentioned in scripture! If you want to argue that such a doctrine was never taught until the 2nd century b.c. I can make the same argument about the resurrection of the dead which was a doctrine that did not develope until around 167 b.c. and then exploded between then and the 1st century a.d. God gave us divine revelation in a spand of time from about 1500 b.c. to

about 100 a.d. The Protestant assumption is that divine revelation stopped for 400 years and then preceded for another 100 years before it stopped. I assert that assumption is wrong! Divine revelation had no linear dissruption in that time frame and that God continued to give Israel Divine Revelation after the Prophet Malachi and all the way to the birth of the Messiah Jesus to the Apocalypse of John (Revelations). Even after that time God continued

to impress upon the Church (the New Israel) and reveal a deeper truth about what was already given to the Apostles and Prophets; such as the developmental doctrine of the Trinity infallibly defined at the Council of Nicaea in 325 a.d.

I think that what you are having a hard time with is that you believe that Judas was buying the salvation of his slain. This is not the case. The passage does not say exactly where the money went but it is very likely it went to the poor. Jewish Tradition teaches that giving alms atones for sins and Judas act of giving alms was an expiation for his slain men. That expiation would have been no good without the prayers of the righteous. Judas Maccabeus

was a righteous, pious, and holy man of God. St James 5:16 tells us the prayers of a righteous man are powerful and effective. The Protestant assumption is that prayers have no effect on those departed. I assert their assumption is wrong! Nowhere in the Protestant canon are we prohibited from praying for those who die in Christ. Protestant TRADITiON teaches that sins are not purged from the souls of the departed therefore there is no need to pray

for the dead. I say Protestant tradition is not apostolic tradition and therefore it is wrong! Judas prayers and alms giving was an atoning expiation for his slain men who were godly but yet guilty of sin which still must be punished. Their faith in the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob saves them from Hell, but their sins must be purged from them in the after life before they can enter Heaven.

Rather, Judas is clearly being commended by Jason (the possible author), in hindsight, for the honorable thought (good intention) he displayed by taking up a collection as an offering for the godly who had fallen asleep.

>>

That's not what the passage say's.

>>

Engage RE:  Oh yes it is. 

I dissagree, the passage in it's entire context is that Judas made atonement for the dead so that they could obtain a better resurrection. Engage, you are approaching this entire argument with the presumption that the books of Maccabees are not inspired. I presume and believe that the books of Maccabees are inspired so therefore, if 2 Maccabees is inspired then it is useful for teaching and instructions of righteousness which would include prayers for those who have died in Christ.

You have a huge theological problem here. Since you are bound by Sola Scriptura you have no infallible authority to tell you what books of the Bible are inspired. The Bible does not name it's own canon and yet you are bound by Sola Scriptura leaving you with no infallible authority to tell you what is and is not scripture. That is a theological bankruptcy!

Engage RE:  The Scriptures themselves tell me which Set of Books of the OT were considered Holy/Inspired by God.

God entrusted Israel with His Words to them:

Romans 3:1 What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision?  2 Much in every way!  First of all, they have been entrusted with the very

words of God.  3 What if some did not have Faith?  Will their lack of faith nullify God's Faithfulness?  4 Not at all!  Let God be true, and every man a liar.

Therefore, the RCC has no authority - or historical knowledge - to determine the extent of the OT canon.  God gave that authority to the Jews.

Dave RE: Oh on the contrary, the Catholic Church does have full authority! Prior to the Synod of Jamnia there was no fixed canon, there were many books written that considered inspired by various Jewish sects of Israel. The Dead Sea Scrolls revealed that. In fact, the Dead Sea Scrolls asserted there were 94 inspired books. The Synod of Jamnia ratified 39 books as the official Hebrew canon. Israel had authority with Divine Revelation (Entrusted with the very words of God) until this event took place around 33 a.d.

MT 16:13 When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"

MT 16:14 They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."

MT 16:15 "But what about

you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"

MT 16:16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."

MT 16:17 Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you

bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

Now Israel no longer has authority with the "very words of God." The Church does! Now the Church is the manifold wisdom of God (Ephes 3:10) and the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15). The Synod of Jamnia took place around 90 a.d. approximately 60 years to late! The Synod of Jamnia had no authority to define devine revelation, the Church now has soul authority to reveal God's Word. Therefore, the Synod of Jamnia decleration of the Word of God was made null and void 60 years before it happened. Furthermore, The Synod of Jamnia was reacting to two events. 1)The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 a.d. along

with Roman persecution of Judaism.

2)The rapid growth of the Christian Church lead by the Apostles who used the Septuagint Scriptures which included the dueteroconanical books of the Old Testament. The Synod of Jamnia even took into consideration and rejected the gospel message and the teachings of the Apostle Paul and rejected them as inspired. So if you're going to accept the Hebrew canon by virtue of the Synod of Jamnia, you must reject the New Testament by the same authority!

The legitimate faith of the Jews were the Pharisees according to Christ Jesus.  See: Matthew 23:2-3. 

While the Pharisees themselves were not true to the Faith, they represented the very:

a) Scriptures,

b) Hope (Messiah/Resurrection/Kingdom to come), and

c) foundational doctrines (demons/angels/heaven/hell etc)

that the Pharisaic religion inherited from their forefathers - and of which Lord Jesus and the Apostles passed on to us as Divine Doctrine

Dave RE: It is very good that you have recognized the ecclesiastical authority Israel and those who sat upon the Seat of Moses once had. Jesus recognized this authority. Now you must acknoweledge the authority of the Church. Jesus is God and as I pointed out before he took away Israel's authority and gave it to the Church (Matthew 16:16-19) which is now, the manifold wisdom of God (Ephes 3:10) and the Pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15).

And it was the Sacred Scriptures of the Pharisees [Hebrew Canon] that Lord Jesus and the Epistle writers quoted from as their authority to prove and define the Gospel of Salvation - New Covenant in Christ). 

I say "Canon" because the two schools of Pharisees at the time of Christ [Hillel and Shammai] considered the complete set of Hebrew Scriptures as Sacred/Inspired at the time of Christ - except for two books in the "Writings/Kethubim". This is far less disagreement than Christians today have over the Biblical "Canon".  I can easily verify this if you are not familiar with the history.

Dave RE: No serious Biblical scholar disputes the fact that the scriptures that Jesus and the Apostles used was the Septuagint and not the Hebrew canon which hadn't even been defined yet. Jesus and the Apostles quoted from the Septuagint 300 out of 350 times in the New Testament. This is 86% of the time! So your point is moot. If Jesus and the Apostles used the Septuagint then they accepted it as a complete canon which included the books of Maccabees as inspired.

Engage wrote: I am quite familiar with Jamnia.  No books were added or subtracted at Jamnia.  The discrepancy over the two books was resolved and the entire Hebrew Canon that existed at the latest 100BC was organized into three parts and ratified at Jamnia.

If you desire evidence for this, I have it in my computer.  I will provide it for you.

Dave RE: Then provide it so I can cross examine it! The very reason why the Synod of Jamnia was held was to consolidate the essential teachings of the Jewish religion which included what books were to be excluded from the Hebrew canon. They purposely excluded the Dueteroconanical books because the Apostles used them to demonstrate the one they crucified was their own Messiah. Consider the following passage from the book of Wisdom:

12 * * Let us beset the just one, because he is obnoxious to us;

he sets himself against our doings,

Reproaches us for transgressions of the law

and charges us with violations of our training.

13 He professes to have knowledge of God

and styles himself a child of the LORD.

14 To us he is the censure of our thoughts;

merely to see him is a hardship for us,

15 Because his life is not like other men's,

and different are his ways.

16 He judges us debased;

he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure.

He calls blest the destiny of the just

and boasts that God is his Father.

17 Let us see whether his words be true;

let us find out what will happen to him.

18 For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him

and deliver him from the hand of his foes.

19 With revilement and torture let us put him to the test

that we may have proof of his gentleness

and try his patience.

20 Let us condemn him to a shameful death;

for according to his own words, God will take care of him."

21 These were their thoughts, but they erred;

for their wickedness blinded them,

22 And they knew not the hidden counsels of God;

neither did they count on a recompense of holiness.

Wisdom 2:12-22

Clearly with such prophetic messianic passages as these being used by the Apostles it indicted the Pharisees for crucifying the Lord of Glory and they excluded these books. In addition, they excluded many more books that are now regarded as "Pseudepigrapha" but were considered inspired by at least the

Hellenistic Jews which asserted there were 94 inspired writings. The very proof of this is found in the Dead Sea Scrolls and the book of Jude which clearly quotes from the Assumption of Moses (Jude 9) and the book of Enoch (Jude 14) as inspired books!

Fourthly:

While,

1) some Apocryphal writings are eluded to in the NT Scriptures,

2) and Greek Poets are quoted (Acts 17:28; Corinthians 15:33; Titus 1:12)

3) and Non-Deutero Books are quoted in Jude

NONE of the writings listed above were ever quoted, referenced, or eluded to, as a Divine Authority to Prove and Define Gospel of Christ/The New Covenant

ONLY the Hebrew Scriptures were quoted up to the Prophet Malachi by Christ and the Epistle writers as the Divine Authority to Prove and Define the Gospel of Christ/The

New Covenant.

Dave RE: I can tell you have debated with Catholic apologist before because unlike us catholic apologist, your arguments are changing. Evangelical/Fundementalist Apologist use to argue that Jesus and the Apostles never qouted from "apocryphal books" such as 1st & 2nd Maccabees, Sirach, Tobit, Baruch, Judith, and Wisdom. However, I am sure you know that is no longer true. Still, your "new and modified" arguments have flaws. First of all you are flat wrong that "NONE of the writings listed above were ever quoted, referenced, or eluded to, as a Divine Authority to Prove and Define Gospel of Christ/The New Covenant." What about Jude 14 reference to the book of Enoch? Is this not used to prove his second coming and judgement which is a big part of the Gospel message? The second problem with your argument is that qoutation does not equal canonocity! Jesus and the Apostles did not qoute from every book in the Hebrew canon. Such books as Esther, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, and Obadiah are not even eluded too. So if qouatation equals canonicity then you would have to at least eliminate those books from the Hebrew canon. Furthermore, if qouatation equals canonicity then you must accept the following Deuteroconanical books as inspired scripture:

Hebrews 11:35 alludes to 2 Maccabees 7: therefore 2 Maccabees is inspired.

Matthew 27 41-43 alludes to Wisdom 2:12-20: therefore the book of Wisdom is inspired.

Jesus in Matthew 7:17-20 alludes to Sirach 27:6: therefore the book of Sirach is inspired.

In St John 10:22-36 Jesus is observing Hanukkah the establishment of which is recorded in a supposedy uninspired and non canonical books of Maccabees. Jesus then alludes to

JN 10:22 Then came the Feast of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23 and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade. 24 The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly."

JN 10:25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30 I and

the Father are one."

JN 10:31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

JN 10:33 "We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

JN 10:34 Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, `I have said you are gods' ? 35 If he called them `gods,' to whom the word of God came--and the Scripture cannot be broken-- 36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world?

Jesus standing near the temple during the feast of Hanukkah eqautes him being "set apart" just as Judas Maccabeus "set apart" the Temple in 1 Maccabees 4:36-59 and 2 Maccabees 10:1-8. Thus Jesus alludes to the books of Maccabees. Now you must accept 1 Maccabees as inspired.

IN Addition:

NO Apocryphal Book was determined by the Pharisees to be Sacred - although they had

high regard for the Apocryphal Books as Jewish History.

Actually, the Pharisees were descendents of Hasidim Jews. These were devout Jews who opposed Antiochus IV's attempt to destroy the Mosaic faith. This was during the time that lead up to the Maccabean Revolt around 168 b.c. Contrary to your assertions; there was no uniformed canon at the time. Many books were considered inspired and it was during this period of time that such teachings as "the Ressurection of the Dead" and "baptism" began to develop. This was also the period of time in which apocalyptic literature began to develop such as the book of Daniel which was written between 164 and 167 b.c. The Dead Sea Scrolls which were writings dating back to this time in history reveals that at the time there were much more then 39 inspired books. It is very obvious that the Pharisees held to these doctrines such as the Ressurection of the Dead, a coming Messiah, and baptism which is something totally foreign to the Hebrew canon. This is another question to ponder Engage: if the Pharisees only held to a 39 book canon prior to the Academy (or Synod) of Jamnia, then why did they practice baptism? It is also very clear that they celebrated and observed the Feast of Hanukkah which was a feast established in

the book of Maccabees. Therefore prior to the Academy of Jamnia they held these books up as conanical but later abandoned them as a direct result of the growth and teachings of the Church through the Apostles and their successors (Bishops).

They even considered at least one of the writers to have been inspired.  And to be quite honest there are over a hundred people recorded in the OT and NT that said things that were inspired - even today.  But not as a divinely appointed prophet or leader over Israel - as even

Maccabaeus historically states:

1 Maccabaeus 9:27 So there was great distress in Israel, such as had not been since the time that prophets ceased to appear among them.

An authoritative prophet of God guiding Israel was only a memory of their distant past. They were looking for another prophet to appear...

Dave RE: It is true that God did speak to Israel through prophets however, not all of the Hebrew canon's conanical books were written by prophets yet the ones that were not, such as Job, Ruth, Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Esther, and many others, were still "God breathed." The same is true for the books of Maccabees.

1 Maccabaeus 4:46 And stored the stones in a convenient place on the temple hill until a prophet should come to tell what to do with them.

This is another indication the people were waiting for another prophet to arise.

1 Maccabaeus 14:41 The Jews and their priests have resolved that Simon should be their leader and high priest forever, until a trustworthy prophet should arise.

WHY?  Because Jewish History records that God's Presence (His Spirit) departed Israel after Malachi.  So, Israel was no longer being guided as a nation by Prophets and God appointed leaders. 

While the Septuagint - from Alexandria - did include the Apocrypha, the only historical evidence available only shows that the Hebrew Canon was considered to be SACRED as can be witnessed by Philo from Alexandria, the Book of Hebrews (written in Alexandrian style) and the Jewish Historian and Pharisee, Josephus.  These sources never quoted or considered any Apocryphal books to be Inspired Authority to define and prove the faith.

This Jewish History agrees with Jesus and the Epistle Writers, because they only quoted up to Malachi as their divine authority to define and prove the Gospel.

Dave RE: Before you wrote this rebuttle to me I told you that in order for you to give me an authority for why you accept a "66" book canon as the totality of the Bible you would have to violate the very pillar and foundation of your belief system, "Sola Scriptura." You have just done that! Ironically, you did it by your interpration of 1 Maccabees 14:41 which is truly an inspired book. The problem is that your interpration of it is applied to Divine Revelation; this is an incorrect application of the text. At various times in History Israel had a prophet lead it, but not always! Sometimes they had Kings and Judges, Prophets came and went; however, the Word of the Lord went on in unbroken lineage until the end of the 1st century a.d. For the past 2000 years and until Jesus returns the manifold wisdom of God and the pillar and foundation of truth is His Church, the Catholic Church! The Church tells us by divine authority (which is infallible) what books of the Bible are truly conanical.

As time allows I will answer your continued rebuttle.

Yours in Christ,

SUPER SAVED CATHOLIC DAVE

Subject: Re: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

Date: 3/10/2002 7:14 PM Central Standard Time

Message-id: <20020310201417.00730.00000458@mb-ft.aol.com>

Fifthly:

While the Jews also considered the "Oral Tradition/Law" just as Sacred as the Hebrew Canon, Christ Jesus set the boundaries of the OT Canon by condemning the "Oral Law" as nothing more than the teachings of men, see Mark 7:6. Mark 7:6 is a quote from Isaiah (see context) - that put heavy burdens on the backs of the Jews, See: Mtt 23:2-4 and Luke 11:46.

There were over 600 such regulations and laws in the "Oral Law" that the Pharisees lorded over the Jewish people. Obviously Lord Jesus was not scolding his Father in Heaven for these burdensome regulations and laws.

Dave RE: Jesus did not condemned all Tradition; that is absurd! The Bible itself is the result of tradition! If you read those scriptural passages Jesus spells out exactly what traditions he is condemning such as the ceremonial washing of the hands and being able to forsake mother and father by making an offering to God on their behalf, thus nullifying the commandment "honor thy mother and thy father." Jesus condemned traditions that were man made but not tradition which was sacred or inspired. Your very interpratation of the cited text as Jesus condemning all tradition is in itself being interpreted by your own tradition!!! Thus you too have nullified the Word of God with your own man made tradition! Jesus himself relied on tradition as I will point out here in a

moment.

So,

The Jews were totally correct as regards to the Hebrew Canon (which today is the Tanakh) - as Jewish History and Scripture support as God's Word.

Dave RE: Your theology is getting worse, you are using "Jewish history" in place of "Tradition" to avoid your own adherence to the very thing you claim Jesus condemned! Doing all of this, you violate the very pillar and foundation of your belief system which is "Sola Scriptura" by accepting "Jewish history" which is really "tradition" as infallible and authoritive! Furthermore, even though you accept "Jewish history" as infallible and authoritative when it comes to defining divine revelation at the same time you find "Jewish history" fallible when divine revelation is revealed by oral tradition. This is a complete oxymoron! When I was an Evangelist with the Assemblies of God I observed these discrepencies for years until one day I could no longer ignore

them. The fact is Steve, that when it comes to Divine Revelation you cannot seperate the written Word of God from Sacred Traditon. The two are forever interwoven into each other to form the Word of God.

And

Lord Jesus was totally correct in disapproving of the Jewish reverence toward the "oral law" - [tradition] - as being God's Word No man is perfect, and we do make mistakes. The Jews are no exception. Therefore, is not LORD JESUS qualified to correct the Jews, and restrict the boundaries of God's Word to the Hebrew Canon of which God entrusted with the Jews (Romans 3:1-4)?

Dave RE: Jesus never made such a claim as only the written Word of God is truly divine and all oral tradition is man made. You will never find such a passage in the Bible. You are interpreting the text by your own non apostolic traditon! Jesus himself relied on Sacred Traditon. Consider the following passage:

MT 23:1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 "The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. 3 So you must obey them and do

everything they tell you.

There are two things I want to point out here. Jesus said the the teachers of the law sit in Moses seat. Where in the Hebrew canon will you find the doctrine of "The Seat of Moses? Leviticus? Exodus? Numbers? Dueteronomy? Isaiah? Malachi? NO!NE OF THOSE! You will find it in Jewish tradition which was sacred and upheld by Jesus!!! So Jesus relies also on tradition and not just the written Word! The second point is that Jesus told the Jewish people to listen and obey their teachings because they sit on the seat of Moses! Therefore Jesus once again upholds Tradition which is divine and sacred but he condemns the tradition that was not divine and sacred and nullified the Word of God.

Sixthly:

Just as the Jews tried to add their "tradition" to the Holy Scriptures of the Old Testament (although they never placed their "oral law" within the Hebrew Canon by Divine Providence),

so too,

the Early Church Fathers desired to place their oral tradition on par with the Holy Scriptures of the New Testament (although they never placed their "oral law" within the Hebrew Canon by Divine Providence).

Dave RE: How little you really understand divine revelation; that is okay though I was once like you asserting the same things you are today. The early Church Fathers were Pillars of the Church and that Church is the Catholic Church, the same catholic Church you persecute today. God made His Church to be the manifold wisdom of Himself, and the Pillar and foundation of truth. The Holy Spirit guides and protects the Church's doctrine as it is written:

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14 He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15 All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

This promise is not for individuals seperated from the Holy Catholic Church because if it was, individuals would all come to the same conclusions when interpreting scripture. We know that is far from the case! This promise is exclusively for the Church first given to the Apostles and then handed down to their successors by the laying on of hands (Acts 6:6; 13:13; 1 Tim 4:14; 1 Tim 5:22. 2Tim 1:6). It is the Church which is guided into all truth and divine revelation is therefore revealed in a triune way interwoven as One entity: The Holy Scriptures and Sacred Tradition being infallibly taught by the Magesterium of the Church which is the manifold wisdom of God (Ephes 3:10) and the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15). This makes up the

totality of God's Holy Word.

Lord Jesus, The Prophets and The Apostles spoke and wrote direct revelation from God through the Holy Spirit as the FOUNDATION. [ 1Cor3:11; Eph2:20 ]

The Promise of the Holy Spirit was to help the Apostles remember everything Christ Jesus said to them while with them. They were to preach on the housetops what Christ told them in secret. The Prophets and Christ Jesus, and the Apostles make up the FOUNDATION - Christ Jesus being the Chief Cornerstone. 1Cor3:11; Eph2:20. No man has the right to add MORE FOUNDATION onto that which was already laid.

And that foundation is His One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church! Not in one of those verses will you see a reference to a written canon being the pillar of the Church. All those verses refer to the authority and growth of the Church. You will never find a verse in all the Bible that says anything like "and upon this rock I will build my Bible and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." OR " His intent was that now, through the BIBLE, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms" OR "if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves when reading the Word of God and studying it which is the Bible the pillar and foundation of the truth." If the Holy Spirit was only going to guide the apostles to remember what Jesus taught until they wrote them down the Binle would say so! However, this was not God's plan because a written canon by itself apart from an authoritive entity to teach it leaves a vacuum of truth open and can produce thousands of denominations all claiming the truth but divided on essential doctrines. This is exactly what the Protestant Reformation gave birth too.

Lord Jesus and the Apostles, never quoted or referenced the oral law or oral tradition as their authority. They always used, as their authority, the HOLY SCRIPTURES as the FOUNDATION. How can a Christian today to anything less than Christ and the Super Apostles? Tradition cannot be relied upon - as history shows

again and again.

Dave RE: I've already demonstrated this is not true. I will give you another example to drive a nail in the coffin of "Born Again" Christian theology. Let us examine the Gospel of St John:

3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7 When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8 Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

JN 8:9 At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there.

Now the Law of Moses say's: "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to

death." Leviticus 20:10

Did Jesus violate the scriptures which he upheld?? The Scriptures demanded that woman be put to death for adultery but Jesus apparently disregarded his Own Commandments given to Moses!. Or did he? No, Jesus appealed to Tradition which is interwoven with the written scriptures to show mercy to that

woman who deserved to die! So in this case Jesus relied more on Sacred Tradition then the very written Word and commandments!

Also, Lord Jesus and The Epistle Writers knew full well, by revelation from Christ, that many were, and soon would be, trying pervert the Word of God and deceive many. How do we know the Apostles were concerned about this? Read for yourself:

Matt 24:10-13 "At that time many will [[Turn Away from the Faith]] and will betray each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, [[But He who (Stands Firm to the end) will be Saved]]."

Galatians 1:8 "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, - "let him" - be eternally condemned!"

Jude 3 . . . I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the Faith that was once for all entrusted to the Saints. 4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the Grace of God into a license for

immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. niv

Acts 20:29-31 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the Truth in order to draw away the disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped

warning each of you night and day with tears. niv

2 Tim 2:17,18 "Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have [wondered away from the truth]. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the Faith of some."

2 Pet 1:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Sovereign Lord who {Bought them} bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and

will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their Condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

Dave RE: The ironic thing about those verses is that it was written by the Apostles who were building the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. This Church is protected from doctrinal error by the Holy Spirit as I already demonstrated St John 16:13 says. Furthermore, we know that the particular heresy these verses referred to was Gnostic teachings which is very similar to Fundamentalist teachings on Salvation, the Eucharist, and Baptism. Consider The Apostle John Disciple whom he personally trained and who became the Bishop of Antioch around 80 a.d. His name was Ignatius and being condemned to death in the Lions Den by the Romans he writes 7 Epistles in 107 a.d. In his Epistle to the Smyraeans he writes:

They (the Gnostics) abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer,(7) because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death...

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution(17) of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper(18) Eucharist, which is[administered] either even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. St. Ignatius of Antioch 107 a.d.

Therefore the Written Word is our only rule of Faith that we can rely on and measure what others say as being Truth or False Doctrine just as the Bereans did:

Dave RE: A good Jehovah Witness will use an NIV Bible when they are going door to door getting recruits. I know this is true because when I was with the Assemblies of God I use to invite Jehovah Witnesses over my house all the time just to debate with them and they were always up for the challenge. I did the same with Mormons, UPC, Word of Faith, and other Evangelicals I believed had the wrong interpration of the scripture. Obviously I still do this and have been doing apologetics now since 1986. What I am trying to point out here is that all of these groups use the Bible and yet each one comes up with a different interpration on essential doctrines such as sin, salvation, baptism, grace, works, and communion. It is self evident that thousands of

denominations and cults claim to only go by the Bible and yet this is no gaurantee at arriving at doctrinal truth. The reason this is the case is one of authority to teach with infallibility. The Bible cannot be effectively the Word of God unless it is taught with infallible truth. Jesus and the Apostles knew this and that is why Jesus commissioned a Church and not a Bible left to fallible men to teach according to their own lust. Jesus gave us the Church and the Church gave us the Bible which they alone teach and interpret with infallibility because the Church is the manifold wisdom of God (Ephes 3:10) and the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15).

Acts 17:11 "Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."

That is why the Holy Scriptures reveal that the Written Word has THE Authority.

The Bereans used the scriptures to verify if what Paul was teaching about Jesus was possibly true. This makes no statement however regarding "Sola Scriptura." The Bible is authoritative but it needs a living entity to teach it with infallibility All the Bereans could do was see if what the Apostles were teaching fit the scriptures or not. They still could have appealed to the Pharisees for authority to teach the Bible. But it is likely they accepted the Apostles authority to teach the scriptures over the Pharisees. As I said before, studying the scriptures apart from a teaching authority is no gaurantee of arriving at doctrinal truth. This fact is self evident!

Christians today do not, and should not, rely on tradition either, because the Apostles told us what is already written was all that was necessary to make us wise for Salvation in more than a few Passages.

Dave RE: Neither the Apostles or the Bible teaches any such thing! In fact the Apostle Paul teaches in 2 Thessalonians 2:15 the following:

"So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions (Greek=Paradosis) we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter."

St. Paul specifically tells us to hold on to both the written and oral word of God the Apostles taught!

For instance:

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. kjv

It say's "all scripture" and NOT "ONLY SCRIPTURE."

Engage writes: And, by application, Christ and the Epistle writers only quoted Scripture - not tradition - when defining the New Covenant in Christ - the Gospel.

Dave RE: I've already proven by the scriptures this is not true. I will continue this debate as time allows. My next segment I will address the Church of the Bible being the Catholic Church.

Subject: Re: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

Date: 3/13/2002 12:55 AM Central Standard Time

Message-id: <20020313015558.05982.00001941@mb-fo.aol.com>

Thank you very much for your messages.

I have read your responses and will respond to the key points you made. Because I am providing the evidence you requested, I will have to split this response up into several messages. I could have provided much more, but I think it will be long enough after I am finished. I will supply more information as needed.

Dave, I will discuss these issues with you in all sincerity and Godly reverence for Truth. For your sake, I plead with you to do likewise - for we are discussing things of Eternal importance.

So what is in question here is whether or not the books of Maccabees are inspired or not. I steak my soul that they are!

First of all, the Foundation from which all Divine Revelation was given to us includes only the Prophets, the Apostles and Christ Jesus himself.

Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. 19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizen with God's people and members of God's household, 20 built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the Chief Cornerstone. 21 In Him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.

Ephesians 3:4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit of God's holy Apostles and Prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the Gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, member together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

The Book of Maccabaeus reveals that there were no Prophets among them to give them direction from God as to what to do.

Therefore we cannot claim that the Book of Maccabaeus is a Revelation from God - or that Judas was fulfilling a Divine Directive in 2 Maccabaeus 12:43.

And if they are then your point that 2 Maccabees 12:43 says "it was a holy and pious thought" must be seen in the light of divine revelation.

Dave, in discussing the understanding of 2 Maccabaeus 12:43, I am going to answer you - as if Maccabaeus itself is Divinely Inspired Holy Scripture along with all the other Deuterocanonical Books.

In light of what divine revelation did God mandate such actions?

Show me the divine revelation that states that such actions by Judas was from God and not his own good and pious intentions as the "Divine Scripture" - 2 Maccabaeus 12 - states?

The context of 2 Maccabaeus itself does not state that what Judas did was in fulfillment of a divine directive from God. Can you not see this from reading it? If you see something other than what is stated, I suggest you re-evaluate your motives.

Rather, Jason (the historian) makes it quite clear that Judas had expressed a noble and pious thought when he took up a collection for those who died in sin - because he believed in the Resurrection. By doing this, his noble intention was the following (I quote last sentence in verse 45, highlighting mine):

"Therefore he (Judas) made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."

'Jason' does not historically indicate that what Judas did was a Divine Directive from God, but rather, just the opposite - "a holy and pious thought" that he hoped might deliver these dead from their sin. That is why Judas made atonement for the dead.

Therefore, we cannot add to this Scripture that such a deed was a divine directive - unless we can show from the other Scriptures that this was indeed a divine directive from God that Judas was fulfilling.

I submit to you that there is not even one Scripture in the entire Bible that states that such a practice - as what Judas did - was or is a Divine Directive from God, even though Judas did it with the best of intentions.

In addition, Judaism today admits that such a practice is Non Scriptural. It was instead, "Rabbinic Tradition".

"The kaddish is not Scriptural, it is Rabbinic. It was composed in Mishnaic times circa 100 B.C.E. The Jewish religion came before catholic and therefore the custom of kaddish and that of charity was from the Jewish religion."

The Yarzheit Website: http://www.yahrzeit.org/qak.html

Lord Jesus condemned the ORAL Law as nothing more than the "traditions of men": This was a general condemnation of the Oral Law as nothing more than the traditions of men.

Mark 7:6 He [Jesus] replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

"These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 7 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men."

You assert that prayers for the dead was something not found in scripture, however, this is circular reasoning; if 2 Maccabees is indeed inspired then it is mentioned in scripture! If you want to argue that such a doctrine was never taught until the 2nd century b.c. I can make the same argument about the resurrection of the dead which was a doctrine that did not develope until around 167 b.c.

Engage RE:

I never asserted that prayers for the dead are not found in Scripture. Rather, God never ordained or recognized prayers for the dead in order to relieve their suffering, or shorten their days in Purgatory, or to regain their salvation.

And, if you want to include Maccabaeus, and all the other seven Deuterocanonical Books, as Holy Scripture, then I assert that 2 Maccabaeus 12 is the only "Scripture" out of them all that

even speaks about such action by a faithful man on behalf of the dead – but does not indicate that this was a Divine Directive from God.

However, neither Christ Jesus, nor any of the Apostles taught that praying for the dead or sending money to Jerusalem, or doing charitable acts on behalf those dead, in any way, shape or form, helped save someone who was dead.

There is no Divine Directive or command regarding such activity. Rather, Scripture clearly declares that all men our responsible for their own sins before God at the Judgment. There are no second chances - as Scripture states:

Hebrews 9:27 Just as it is appointed onto man to die once, and after that to face Judgment, 28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for things done while in the body, whether good or bad.

Revelation 20:12 "...And the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds"

John 12:47 As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.

Galatians 6:7,8 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. 8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption DEATH, but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap Life Everlasting. 14 Because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. kjv

In Luke 16:19-31, there was nothing the rich man in Hades could do to change his position once he died even though he pleaded with Abraham.

In Matthew 25, there was nothing the Five Virgins could do to change their spiritually bankrupt condition at the judgment - even though they pleaded with the Lord in earnest.

Christ told us to always remain ready, because we know not the day or hour of His Coming (Matthew 25:36-44).

Likewise, in Matthew 25:31-46, there was nothing the goats on the left hand of Christ could do to change their circumstances even though, by God's Spirit, they did miracles in His Name while on earth. They pleaded with God, but with no effect on the judgment of their souls.

There is no hope of mercy for those who have died in sin. If they died in sin, then they must now await the judgment - just as there is no hope for the angels who sinned against God. There is nothing you can do here on earth to help someone who died who now faces the judgement of God.

Each man is accountable to God for his own life before God at the judgment for the things he did in the body - whether good or bad. That is what Scripture teaches. That would only be righteous for God to judge this way - since He shows no favoritism. There are no popularity contests at the Judgment.

The Protestant assumption is that divine revelation stopped for 400 years and then preceded for another 100 years before it stopped. I assert that assumption is wrong!

Engage RE: You can assert all you want, but unless you can prove it, you are mistaken. Because I have shown you clear evidence that the Deuterocanonical Books were never recognized to be Holy Scripture by Christ Jesus, the Epistle Writers, Maccabaeus itself, and the Jewish history. God entrusted His Words to Israel as His Wife: Romans 3:1-4.

You have shown no evidence to the contrary. The foundation of our Faith was revealed to us by the Prophets, Apostles and Christ Jesus - which make up the Foundation and direct revelation from God - just as Scripture states.

Even after that time God continued to impress upon the Church (the New Israel) and reveal a deeper truth about what was already given to the Apostles and Prophets;

Engage RE: There is no "deeper truth" then what the Christ and the Apostles taught as direct revelation from God. Lord Jesus and the Gospel is that Truth. How is it that you think any man or organization can improve on what God authored by Inspiration through His Holy Prophets and Apostles???

If a religion's "deeper truth" disagrees or contradicts what The Prophets, Christ Jesus and the Apostles stated and taught as the FOUNDATION then it must not be accepted. I quoted to you "Ephesians 2:18-21" and "Ephesians 3:4-6" regarding this fact earlier. And we will be judged by the things written in those Books.

Churches were scattered everywhere throughout the world, but united in the Foundation - which is Christ and Christ's Revelation of Doctrine from the Prophets and Apostles.

Do not make the Gospel more complicated and deeper than what God-Breathed Scripture declares:

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the Power of God. 19 For it is Written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar?...

Otherwise we end up like the Jews under the ruler-ship of a "pharisee-like" authority that puts "tradition" above the Word of God. And this is what the Roman Catholic Church has done with the Gospel of Salvation as well.

In either case, the Door of Salvation is being shut for the sake of Tradition.

Subject: Re: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church2

Date: 3/13/2002 1:12 AM Central Standard Time

From: Engage123

Message-id: <20020313021243.05982.00001944@mb-fo.aol.com>

Today, since the Apostles are not here to orally teach us divine revelation from God - as the Foundation - we can be certain that we have all that is needed in the written Word of God. This Truth is what the Written Word tells us - just as the Scripture you quoted from 2Tim3:14 states and you quoted in the beginning of your last reply to me.

Also, if we start relying on hearsay tradition, who is to say that person is accurately representing the doctrine of the Apostles? For as Paul himself warned with tears:

How are we to be on our guard? By searching the Scriptures. The Apostles relied on the Scriptures. Christ Jesus relied on the Scriptures. The Bereans relied on the Scriptures. How can we do any less.

Revelation 20:12 "...And the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. "

John 12:47 As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.

And those words were written down throughout the New Testament and the Four Gospels. For Christ said:

John 14:25 All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Those Books also had to include the Hebrew Scriptures (the Old Testament Prophecies):

Therefore, everyone will be judged by what is written in ALL those Books that are from the FOUNDATION. Those are all the Scriptures we should then rely on for Salvation.

2Tim3:14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have know the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for Salvation through Faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

For the FOUNDATION of the Christian faith is Christ and was revealed to us by: The Prophets, The Apostles, and Christ Jesus himself - being the Chief Cornerstone:

1 Corinthians 3:11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 3:4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit of God's holy Apostles and Prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the Gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, member together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

The NT Canon was formed from Revelation from God - not oral communication passed on from generation to generation for hundreds of years. Tradition cannot and should not be relied upon. The Jews tried to add their tradition to God's revealed Truth, and the RCC is following in their steps. As I have already shown you, and write again:

Firstly,

Neither Christ Jesus nor any of the Epistle writers ever relied on "tradition" as their authority.

Secondly,

Nor did the Epistle writers ever expect the Churches to rely on tradition, or even oral revelation.

The Apostles carefully wrote down the pure doctrine of Christ by letter to all the Churches so that false doctrine would not gain dominance over the Word of God to the Churches.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. kjv

Matt 24:10-13 "At that time many will [[Turn Away from the Faith]] and will betray each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, [[But He who (Stands Firm to the end) will be Saved]]."

2 Tim 2:17,18 "Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have [wondered away from the truth]. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the Faith of some."

2 Peter 2:16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain things that are hard to understand, which the ignorant people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. 17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position. 18 But grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be glory both now and forever!

Therefore a clear contextual understanding of the Written Word is our only rule of Faith that we can rely on and measure what others say as being Truth or False Doctrine just as the noble Bereans did:

And the Christian body is to determine if these leaders and teachers are really an authority of God by testing everything they say by Scripture. If these leaders and teachers preach to them that they are to follow and pray to or depend on anyone but God the Father in Heaven through Christ Jesus our only Mediator, Redeemer and Savior, then we should reject those false prophets.

1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

All True Christians are "Christians" (Body of Believers / The Church / Called out ones) because they understand and have come to believe this Truth - the Gospel of Salvation/The New Covenant in Christ. To listen to and follow Christ. Christ himself will give a measure of faith to each member of that Body of believers - wherever they may be - to fulfill a ministry. Some of them will fulfill their calling in a teaching or leadership ministry.

Teachers/Preachers are stewards of the WORD and are important to teach and remind Christians of the Truth in Scripture for our edification, rebuke, admonition, and instruction in that Truth (2 Timothy 3:16) – NOT TO ADD ON TRADITIONS MADE UP BY MEN. There is not even one Scripture that states that we are to rely on anything other than what the Apostles taught us orally or in writing – as direct revelation from God.

Since the Apostles are no longer with us, we can be certain that what is written is all we need for salvation – as Scripture states.

We can also be certain that we should not rely on what others say by tradition, because the Apostles warned us that such people would distort the Truth and deceive many.

Now if we are going to be Judged by the things Written in the Books, how can I do anything less than Christ and the Apostles did, when they also used the Holy Scriptures as their authority to prove the Gospel of Christ?

Rev. 20:12 "...And the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds."

…reveal a deeper truth about what was already given to the Apostles and Prophets; such as the developmental doctrine of the Trinity infallibly defined at the Council of Nicaea in 325 a.d.

Engage RE: All the Council of Nicaea did was define, doctrinally, what is expressed about God through a contextual analysis of Holy Scripture. Almost every denomination does this. This same method is used for every teaching in Scripture. There is nothing wrong with this - as long as the doctrinal statements agree with Scriptural Revelation. I think you better look up what the word "tradition" means.

Romans 3:1 What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision? 2 Much in every way! First of all, they have been entrusted with the very words of God. 3 What if some did not have Faith? Will their lack of faith nullify God's Faithfulness? 4 Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar.

Therefore, the RCC has no authority - or historical knowledge - to determine the extent of the OT canon. God gave that authority to the Jews.

Oh on the contrary, the Catholic Church does have full authority!

You don't really understand what binding and loosing means, or what the keys represent.

Historically, determining which Books are authored by God, was not the purpose of "binding and loosing". You can't tell God which books He authored and which He did not. God himself revealed which Books he authored by means of Christ Jesus - who condemned the oral law, and only quoted and referenced the Hebrew Scriptures when proving the Gospel - all the way up to Malachi. God's wife Israel documented that God departed Israel after Malachi. So Holy Scripture and Jewish History are in agreement as to which Books make up God’s Scripture from the Old Testament.

The Keys represent the fact that Lord Jesus was going to found the Church, and open the doors to evangelism of every race and nation through Peter. Which is exactly what happened. Once Peter's mission was complete, God chose other leaders - including Paul - to continue to establish the church where Peter (in Christ) opened the doors to.

Subject: Re: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

Date: 3/13/2002 1:17 AM Central Standard Time

Message-id: <20020313021710.05982.00001945@mb-fo.aol.com>

The Church does! Now the Church is the manifold wisdom of God (Ephes 3:10) and the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15).

You stated correctly concerning the fact the Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth.

What is the Truth? - "The Truth" is Gospel of Christ, SEE: verse 16.

"Church" means: "called out ones". In other words, The Body of Believers in that Truth (the Gospel) make up the "Church" - God's household.

And wherever these called out ones are gathered throughout the world, God - by the Holy Spirit - calls Godly leaders and teachers to proclaim that Sacred Written Word to them - just as Christ and the Apostles did.

And the Christian body/Church is to determine if these leaders and teachers are really an authority of God by testing everything they say by Scripture. If these leaders and teachers preach to them that they are to follow and pray to or depend on anyone but God the Father in Heaven through Christ Jesus our only Mediator, Redeemer and Savior in heaven who meets our needs, then we should reject those false prophets.

1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Acts 17:11 "Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."

All True Christians are "Christians" (Body of Believers) because they understand and have come to believe this Truth - the Gospel of Salvation/The New Covenant in Christ. To listen to and follow Christ.

Therefore, the "Church" is the Pillar and foundation of this "Truth", for how could they be anything else and still be "Christian"? For how were they "called out"? Were they not called out by the Gospel to follow Christ and look to HIM ONLY our Mediator, Intercessor, Redeemer and Savior in Heaven who meets all our needs?

Hebrews 7:23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore He is able to

SAVE COMPLETELY those who

COME TO GOD THROUGH HIM, because

HE always lives to INTERCEDE for them.

one who is HOLY, BLAMELESS,

from sinners,

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is One God and One Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus..

Now, if the RCC teaches contrary to the Gospel by adding:

Ø Mary as our redeemer, savior, mediator next to Christ whom we are to go to and pray to for all our needs, for our salvation, and to rely on at the Hour of our Death!

Ø prayers to the spirits of the deceased

Ø Purgatory

Ø Works to keep us justified

That is exactly what the RCC has done. Therefore, Scripture reveals the RCC to be a FALSE PROPHET. They have changed the Gospel and stand eternally condemned!

Galatians 1:8 "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel

How do we test whether a Church authority is preaching a True or False Gospel? We do it the same way the Noble New Testament saints did it. We open up the HOLY SCRIPTURE and read them to see if what these supposed leaders are saying is really there.

Acts 17:11 "Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."

1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

Only Christ is praised as being worthy in the Book of Revelation because HE ALONE was sinless and redeemed mankind from sin and death to be children of God.

On that Great Day, who or what will judge us?

Which books do you think those were? Well, they had to include the very words of Christ:

John 12:47 As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.

And those words were written down throughout the New Testament and the Four Gospels. For Christ said:

John 14:25 All this I have spoken while still with you. 26 But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

Those Books also had to include the Hebrew Scriptures (the Old Testament Prophecies):

Therefore, everyone will be judged by what is written in ALL those Books:

2Tim3:14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, 15 and how from infancy you have know the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for Salvation through Faith in Christ Jesus. 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

For the FOUNDATION of the Christian faith is Christ and was revealed to us by: The Prophets, The Apostles, and Christ Jesus himself - being the Chief Cornerstone:

1 Corinthians 3:11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:20 built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the Chief Cornerstone.

And it was the Sacred Scriptures of the Pharisees [Hebrew Canon] that Lord Jesus and the Epistle writers quoted from as their authority to prove and define the Gospel of Salvation - New Covenant in Christ).

I say "Canon" because the two schools of Pharisees at the time of Christ [Hillel and Shammai] considered the complete set of Hebrew Scriptures as Sacred/Inspired at the time of Christ - except for two books in the "Writings/Kethubim". This is far less disagreement than Christians today have over the Biblical "Canon". I can easily verify this if you are not familiar with the history.

No serious Biblical scholar disputes the fact that the scriptures that Jesus and the Apostles used was the Septuagint and not the Hebrew canon which hadn't even been defined yet. Jesus and the Apostles quoted from the Septuagint 300 out of 350 times in the New Testament. This is 86% of the time! So your point is moot. If Jesus and the Apostles used the Septuagint then they accepted it as a complete canon which included the books of Maccabees as inspired.

Engage RE: The only trustworthy historical evidence we do have shows that the Alexandrian Jews and the Palestinian Jews accepted the Hebrew Scriptures as Sacred, Inspired Scripture, but never considered the Apocryphal Books as Sacred, Inspired Scripture. Such evidence is given by:

Philo of Alexandria - who only recognized Hebrew Scriptures as Inspired.

Book of Hebrews (Alexandrian authorship) - while allusions appear to be made from the Book of Wisdom in a couple Passages, the Alexandrian writer relied on the Hebrew Scriptures to define and prove the Gospel.

Josephus Flavius - a notable Jewish Historian and Palestinian Pharisee living at the time of Christ Jesus who states many times that only the Hebrew Scriptures were sacred because the prophets had ceased after Malachi.

Other Jewish historical literature such as: 'History of the Jewish Nation' (which gives a historical understanding of the process of canonization by the earlier BC colleges up to about 100 BC ( http://mb-soft.com/believe/txo/bibletal.htm ) - did not include any Apocryphal books.

The Apocryphal Books were NEVER included as Part of the Sacred Scriptures in the History of the Jews from the BC era to the present date.

The Talmud - records that God's presence - His Spirit - departed Israel after Malachi.

While the Septuagint scrolls of the Hebrew Scriptures did include Apocryphal scrolls, they could not have been accepted as part of the Holy Hebrew Canon any more so then the commentary in most Bibles today should be considered to be Sacred and Inspired. In other words, in hindsight, you cannot impose your bias that the Jews accepted Apocryphal books as canonical when Jewish history itself declares that this was not the case.

The early church began to ignorantly accept the Deuteros as Sacred simply because they were included with the Hebrew Scriptures in the Septuagint for historical and inspirational purposes by the Alexandrian Jews. The Christian Church began to lose the

history of this fact and so the difference between the Hebrew Canon and the Deuteros became increasingly blurred.

I will gladly provide evidence for this if you ask - must most of the history can be found right in the Catholic Encyclopedia under "canon".

Subject: Re: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

Date: 3/13/2002 1:20 AM Central Standard Time

Message-id: <20020313022031.05982.00001946@mb-fo.aol.com>

I am quite familiar with Jamnia. No books were added or subtracted at Jamnia. The discrepancy over the two books was resolved and the entire Hebrew Canon that existed at the latest 100BC was organized into three parts and ratified at Jamnia.

If you desire evidence for this, I have it in my computer. I will provide it for you.

Then provide it so I can cross examine it!

Shammai and Hillel

The two Jewish Colleges (Shammai and Hillel) existed at the time of Christ and at Jamnia (after 70 AD) confirmed/ratified the entire Canon - that prior BC Jewish Colleges from Old Testament times [ http://mb-soft.com/believe/txo/bibletal.htm] already recognized as canonical.

At Jamnia they organized and ratified this CANON in to a TRI-PART Book. No Apocryphal Books were considered - for they were never included in the

first place. Inspiration of the Holy Spirit was the Test of Canonicity.

Please make a note of these FOUR important facts concerning the schools of Shammai and Hillel (evidence forthcoming throughout):

this fact I refer you to the following sources:

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13751a.htm

http://www.billpetro.com/HolidayHistory/hol/easter/now.html

http://www.soft.net.uk/ambain/naz01.htm

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/4201/doc2.html

"Moreover, specific canonical discussion at Jabneh is attested only for Chronicles and Song of Songs. Both circulated prior to Jabneh. There was vigorous debate between Beth Shammai and Beth Hillel over Chronicles and Song; Beth Hillel affirmed that both "defile the hands." One text does speak of official action at Jabneh. It gives a blanket statement that "all Holy Scripture defile the hands," and adds "on the day they made R. Eleazar b. Azariah head of the college, the Song of Songs and Koheleth (Chronicles) both render the hands unclean" (M. Yadayim 3.5). Of the apocryphal books, only Ben Sira is mentioned by name in rabbinic sources and it continued to be circulated, copied and cited. No book is ever mentioned in the sources as being excluded from the canon at Jabneh."

http://department.monm.edu/classics/Speel_Festschrift/sundbergJr.htm

Christ except two books of "The Writings" mentioned in the quote above. "The Writings (Kethuvim)" consisted of the following Inspired Books: Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Solomon, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra-Nehemiah, and Chronicles

Both schools settled their dispute at Jamnia (Jabneh) by accepting the entire Canon of Scripture that existed in Israel since before Christ (at least 100 BC) - with NO ADDTIONS or SUBTRACTIONS. All they did was organize and ratify these Books into a tri-part Canon: The Law, The Prophets and The Writings. And this Canon has been the same ever since to this very day.

So, Jamnia did not create a Canon of Scripture at that time, but ratified a Canon of Scripture that was already declared by earlier "colleges" as "canonical".

Why is this significant? Because this evidence alone shows that "The Writings" along with the Law and the Prophets were never doubted to be Canonical at Jamnia, and before, (except for questions concerning two of those books). I quote Sundberg:

"Moreover, specific canonical discussion at Jabneh is attested only for Chronicles and Song of Songs. Both circulated prior to Jabneh."

http://department.monm.edu/classics/Speel_Festschrift/sundbergJr.htm

Therefore, before the assembly of the Schools ever organized to discuss a 3rd Section of the Hebrew Canon for "The Writings":

1. those "Writings" were already considered "Canonical/Holy/Inspired" before Jamnia by the two schools without any doubts or discussion at all - except for two Books.

2. those "Writings" were familiar to both Schools as being Canonical/Holy/Inspired and complete at the time of Christ - before 70 AD. This is self-evident, otherwise the Two Schools would necessarily have had to clarify and debate their positions concerning those "Writings" at Jamnia as having Canonical Status. But no such clarification or debate is indicated - except for two of those books.

3. This assertion is further confirmed by [ http://mbsoft.com/believe/txo/bibletal.htm ] concerning the confirmation of Canonical status of the Writings along with the Law and the Prophets through Rigorous reviews by earlier "Colleges". That is why the complete canon of Scripture existed about 100 years before Christ.

4. Lord Jesus and the Epistle writers only quoted the Hebrew Scriptures as their Divine authority to prove and define the Gospel of Christ - the foundation of the NT Faith.

Considering the above evidence, then - historically - the Books of the Hebrew Canon which we have today in our Bibles is the exact same set of Books that the Jews used as Canon at the time of Jesus - if not quite a few years before that time. The only differences being the following:

a) The arrangement of the Books

b) Insignificant variations in text in some of the verses.

Sundberg does agree with the "earlier scholarly consensus" that The Law and the Prophets were Canon at least 200 BC.

Sundberg also agrees with the "earlier scholarly consensus" that "The Writings" (although ratified as part of a "Tri-Part" Canon at Jamnia) were already a commonly understood and complete set of books since the 2nd or 1st century BC. This was so, even though little evidence suggests a listing as a separate "Third Part" called "The Writings" at that time.

During the tenth decade of the nineteenth century CE a scholarly consensus was reached regarding the canon of the Hebrew scriptures, the Old Testament of Protestant Christianity. It was agreed that the formation of that canon was an historical process which took place over the centuries in three steps that came to form the tripartite Hebrew (or Palestinian) canon of Law, Prophets and Writings. The first collection to be canonized consisted of the first five books of the Bible and was variously called: the Law (Hebrew, Torah), the Pentateuch (five Books of Moses). This collection was canonized about 400 B.C.E. The second collection canonized was the Prophets (Hebrew, Nabim), which was canonized about 200 B.C.E. Writings

(Kethûbim, Greek, Hagiographa) were canonized about 90 C.E. This last canonization was understood as ratifying a commonly used, complete collection since the second or first century B.C.E"

http://department.monm.edu/classics/Speel_Festschrift/sundbergJr.htm

As regards to canonization of "The Law", Sundberg places the latest possible date at "350 BCE" which does not refute the "400 BCE" date given by the 19th century scholarship. All Sundberg does is to give us the latest possible date of this canonization. I quote Sundberg:

"Thus the terminus ad quem, the latest possible date for the canonization of the Law, is probably set by the Chronicler (c.350 B.C.E.). "

http://department.monm.edu/classics/Speel_Festschrift/sundbergJr.htm

In further reviewing the "earlier consensus" as to "the Prophets", Sundberg (a few paragraphs down) again agrees with the earlier scholarly consensus. I quote Sundberg:

"The Prophets collection was canonized about two centuries after the Law, i.e., about 200 B.C.E."

http://department.monm.edu/classics/Speel_Festschrift/sundbergJr.htm

And two paragraphs down from that statement, Sundberg again confirms what he stated as follows:

"We are confronted with a group of books, the Prophets, appearing in history about 200 B.C.E. as a closed canon."

http://department.monm.edu/classics/Speel_Festschrift/sundbergJr.htm

As for "the writings", Sundberg does not disagree with the Earlier Consensus. In fact, what historical evidence there was of "Jamnia (or Jabneh)", the two schools of Pharisees (Both of which existed before the time of Christ) had no questions as to the canonicity of The Writings - except for two Books. I quote Sundberg:

"Moreover, specific canonical discussion at Jabneh is attested only for Chronicles and Song of Songs. Both circulated prior to Jabneh."

http://department.monm.edu/classics/Speel_Festschrift/sundbergJr.htm

So what was Sundberg's objective in the rest of his thesis? His objective was basically three-fold as follows:

1) When were The Writings ratified as canonical?

2) When was the complete Tri-Part Canon ratified?

and

3) What books did this "canon" include or exclude?

"Writings (Kethûbim, Greek, Hagiographa) were canonized about 90 C.E. This last canonization was understood as ratifying a commonly used, complete collection since the second or first century B.C.E."

http://department.monm.edu/classics/Speel_Festschrift/sundbergJr.htm

"The Writings" were considered to be a common set of complete books at the time of Jesus - according to "Sundberg". But I interject my assertion once again that all the evidence points to the fact that those Writings (being a complete set of Books) were indeed Canonical at the time of Christ - if not long before.

Why were they Holy/Inspired long before? As the History shows, (given earlier in this message), the Holy Spirit departed from Israel after Malachi. And the Jews were willing to die for their Scriptures (the entire Hebrew Canon was referred to by Josephus). I quote Josephus:

"From Artaxerxes to our times a complete history has been written, but has not been deemed worthy of equal credit, with the earlier records, because of the failure of the exact succession of the prophets" (Against Apion 1:41)

"For, although such long ages have now passed, no one has ventured either to add, or to remove, or to alter a syllable". " (Apion 1.42). [Par 11]

And how firmly we have given credit to those books of our own nation is evident by what we do; for during so many ages as have already passed, no one has been so bold as either to add anything to them or take anything from them, or to make any change in them; but it becomes natural to all Jews, immediately and

The "Canonicity Test" which the Two Schools (Shammai and Hillel) used to determine Sacredness WAS THE SAME ONE USED BY ALL THE JEWISH COLLEGES BEFORE THEM as recorded in the Old Testament Hebrew Scriptures, Book of Maccabaeus, Josephus, Philo, 1 Maccabaeus, Talmud, "History of the Jewish Nation" and other historical sources given earlier.

WHY ELSE? Because, this minor disagreement of only two books from The Writings between the two Schools of influence at the time of Christ, certainly cannot be used as evidence to show that The Writings were not Canonical.

WHY? Because, if you are going to use this strict and highly unrealistic definition for CANON, then you must also exclude the HOLY BIBLE as CANONICAL for Christians.

WHY? Because Christian Bodies - even to this day - have some major disagreement has to Canonicity of certain Books of the Bible Canon. Compare this with the minor disagreement of only a couple Books in "The Writings" category of the Prophets between Shammai and Hillel.

Therefore, the reason that Sundberg (nor the earlier scholarly consensus) considered The Writings to be canonical before Jamnia was because they were using a narrower definition of "canon" for the Jews, while using a broader definition of "canon" for the Christians.

Subject: Re: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

Date: 3/13/2002 1:45 AM Central Standard Time

Message-id: <20020313024513.05982.00001948@mb-fo.aol.com>

They purposely excluded the Dueteroconanical books because the Apostles used them to

demonstrate the one they crucified was their own Messiah. Consider the following passage from the book of Wisdom:

AND they NEVER ONCE used that scripture from "Wisdom" as evidence for the Gospel in all of the New Testament. Rather, they used Psalms most of the time. So why didn't the Jews exclude Psalms?

Besides, the very context of that "Wisdom" Passage is referring to the scheme of evil men to destroy the testimony of the righteous. They were contemplating how to do this.

What about Jude 14 reference to the book of Enoch? Is this not used to prove his second coming and judgement which is a big part of the Gospel message?

Engage RE: I believe the Book of Enoch is Divine Scripture. However, I also understand that the text has been corrupted to varying degrees. So it cannot be totally relied upon. But the whole context of Enoch's account is true.

I personally believe the Book of Enoch is Direct Revelation from God to Enoch - but not totally preserved from error. I can only give you theory as to why the Book of Enoch was never included in the Hebrew Canon. The fact is, it wasn't included in the Hebrew Canon - even though its revelations are interwoven throughout the Old and New Testament Scriptures.

The second problem with your argument is that quotation does not equal canonocity! Jesus and the Apostles did not quote from every book in the Hebrew canon. Such books as Esther, Ecclesiastes, Song of Songs, and Obadiah …

Engage RE: While Lord Jesus and the Apostles did not quote every book of the Hebrew Canon, the Hebrew Canon is the ONLY set of books that Lord Jesus and the Apostles quoted from as the WORD OF GOD to prove and define the Gospel of Christ. It is not necessary to quote every Book and every verse to prove which set of Books are Sacred.

God entrusted His Words with the Jews - Romans 3:1-4. And that is the only set of Books - besides the "Oral Tradition" - that the Jews accepted as Sacred Scripture. Why? Because the Spirit had departed Israel after Malachi (no more prophets - Maccabaeus even states this). Remember that the "Oral Tradition" was condemned by Jesus as nothing more than the traditions of men. So God himself limited the boundaries of OT Holy Scripture of which God entrusted with the Jews.

Furthermore, if qouatation equals canonicity then you must accept the following Deuteroconanical books as inspired scripture:

Hebrews 11:35 alludes to 2 Maccabees 7: therefore 2 Maccabees is inspired.

Matthew 27 41-43 alludes to Wisdom 2:12-20: therefore the book of Wisdom is inspired.

Jesus in Matthew 7:17-20 alludes to Sirach 27:6: therefore the book of Sirach is inspired.

[Etc…]

>>

The "allusions" you gave of Apocryphal Books to the NT Scriptures is faulty - as I am sure you are already aware IF you looked them up.

To be honest, only a couple words or scattered bits of ideas can be gleaned from the Deutero references you gave as having any likeness to the NT Scriptural references you match them to in most cases.

Only several of them give any real evidence that ideas were actually taken from the Deuteros rather than the Hebrew Scriptures. But even so, no such allusions from the Deuteros have anything to do with forming or defining the teaching of the Gospel of Christ. Rather they provide scattered bits of wisdom or they give some information as to martyrs of the faith.

The fact is, Lord Jesus and the Epistle Writers referred exclusively to the Hebrew Scriptures as their Divine Authority to Prove and Define the Gospel of Christ. And any allusions to the Deuteros that are made, the Epistle writers give no credit to any Deutero book - or even that it is a quote or reference.

The Dead Sea Scrolls which were writings dating back to this time in history reveals that at the time there were much more then 39 inspired books.

Engage RE: The Dead Sea Scrolls contain hundreds of writings - many of which have little to do with the Jewish Scriptures or the Deuteros. I am sure you know this full well. So why try to use such a source to make a false claims? Do you really think you can deceive the Holy Spirit? Your own conscience will be open before God on that Day of Judgment - so be careful!

they celebrated and observed the Feast of Hanukkah which was a feast established in the book of Maccabees.

Engage RE: Christmas and Easter are two of several traditional holidays for Christians which are not ordained by Christ Jesus in the New Testament as a sacrament, nor are such holidays referred to.

My point is, there is nothing wrong with forming special holidays that represent our faith toward God. All the Deuteros have wonderful examples of faithfulness by a remnant of Jews. Although God was not guiding Israel as a nation anymore through Prophets and God-ordained leaders, that does not mean that people of faith are not found in every age of creation.

It is true that God did speak to Israel through prophets however, not all of the Hebrew canon's conanical books were written by prophets yet the ones that were not, such as Job, Ruth, Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Esther, and many others, were still "God breathed." The same is true for the books of Maccabees.

Engage RE: In hindsight, neither you nor I lived thousands of years ago when those Books were scrutinized and edited by earlier BC Colleges as canonical and prophetic. Nor did we speak their language or know their culture or history of godly leaders. On top of that, God entrusted HIS WORD to his Elect Wife Israel.

To put it simply, we are in no position to adequately understand the history as to why these Books were deemed "canonical" by the Jews. All we know from the Jewish historical understanding of those Books is from ancient tradition as follows. I quote:

-

['History of the Jewish Nation,' p. 418.] http://mb-soft.com/believe/txo/bibletal.htm

A contextual study of Scripture reveals which set of OT Books were Sacred Canon - which was provided for your consideration about three times so far. We can understand this by a study of which Books Lord Jesus considered Prophetic/Inspired by instruction and by application.

1 Maccabaeus 9:27 So there was great distress in Israel, such as had not been since the time that prophets ceased to appear among them.

An authoritative prophet of God guiding Israel was only a memory of their distant past. They were looking for another prophet to appear...

1 Maccabaeus 4:46 And stored the stones in a convenient place on the temple hill until a prophet should come to tell what to do with them.

This is another indication the people were waiting for another prophet to arise.

1 Maccabaeus 14:41 The Jews and their priests have resolved that Simon should be their leader and high priest forever, until a trustworthy prophet should arise.

Jewish History records that God's Presence (His Spirit) departed Israel after Malachi. So, Israel was no longer being guided as a nation by Prophets and God appointed leaders.

While the Septuagint - from Alexandria - did include the Apocrypha, the only historical evidence available shows that ONLY the Hebrew Canon was considered to be SACRED as can be witnessed by Philo from Alexandria, the Book of Hebrews (written in Alexandrian style) and the Jewish Historian and Pharisee, Josephus. These sources never quoted or considered any Apocryphal books to be Inspired Authority to define and prove the faith.

This Jewish History agrees with Jesus and the Epistle Writers, because they only quoted up to Malachi as their divine authority to define and prove the Gospel.

Before you wrote this rebuttle to me I told you that in order for you to give me an authority for why you accept a "66" book canon as the totality of the Bible you would have to violate the very pillar and foundation of your belief system, "Sola Scriptura." You have just done that! Ironically, you did it by your interpration of 1 Maccabees 14:41 which is truly an inspired book.

Engage RE: You have not proven Maccabaeus to be an inspired book. Rather, all you have proven so far is that you refuse to accept what Maccabaeus was written by the historian (Jason of Cyrene) and that Maccabaeus states that there were no prophets to tell them what to do from God.

Dave, in determining the extent of the Books of the Bible, I am not required to show evidence for this by Sola Scriptura alone. While Sola Scriptura is the ONLY divine authority for our Faith, we may determine which Books were authentic by the historical authority those books carried with them by:

1. the Jews (in the case of the OT),
2. the early Church (in the case of the NT)
3. along with internal evidence of Holy Scripture itself.

The problem is that your interpration of it is applied to Divine Revelation; this is an incorrect application of the text. At various times in History Israel had a prophet lead it, but not always!

Engage RE: What you stated goes against your earlier claim that there was always a succession of prophets. How can the word of the Lord continue on when God is not speaking? Where does God state any revelation during those 40 years in the desert that God banished the Jews - which Moses led out of Egypt?

I have read the Old Testament, and I have seen for myself that God has indeed left Israel without a Prophet or Godly leader, or revelation, such as in the periods below:

1) those 400 years that the Jews were slaves in Egypt before God - through Moses - rescued them.

2) those whom God already condemned - such as the first generation of Jews that God declared should all die in the wilderness within 40 years.

3) the Jews after Malachi because of their rejection of Him.

However, all the Books of the Hebrew Scriptures are Revelation from God as written by His prophets and God appointed leaders - as historically and Scripturally proven.

Sometimes they had Kings and Judges, Prophets came and went; however, the Word of the Lord went on in unbroken lineage until the end of the 1st century a.d. For the past 2000 years and until Jesus returns the manifold wisdom of God and the pillar and foundation of truth is His Church, the Catholic Church! The Church tells us by divine authority (which is infallible) what books of the Bible are truly conanical.

Engage RE: Your views are not supported by history or scripture - not even by Maccabaeus. Your definition as to the Pillar and Foundation of the Truth as being the RCC cannot possibly be true - since the RCC does not teach the same Gospel that the Christian Faith is Founded on - who is Christ. They have added Mary to that Gospel as our

Mediator,

Intercessor,

Co-Redemptrix,

Queen of Heaven and Earth,

and our Savior

The NT only teaches Christ Jesus as the one and only Mediator, Intercessor, Redeemer, King of Kings and Savior in Heaven who meets all our needs.

IF a religious body directs us to pray to, venerate, and depend on anyone in the heavens but Christ as our Mediator, Redeemer, Ruler, Savior, then that Religious body is false.

For the Gospel calls the True Church (the Body of Believers) to come to Christ and put all our faith in HIM as our Shepherd - whom we follows and petition for all our needs and our salvation. The True Church is CALLED OUT of this world to FOLLOW CHRIST and HIS WORD.

It would be inconsistent with God's Word to say the RCC represented the True Church when the True Church in the Bible are those who are called out to follow, pray to and depend on Christ for all our needs and for our Salvation. The RCC is rather calling people to look to the RCC as the "Christ/Church" and to follow whatever they tell us to. That is NOT a description of the New Testament Church.

Subject: Re: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

Date: 3/13/2002 2:17 AM Central Standard Time

Message-id: <20020313031752.05982.00001950@mb-fo.aol.com>

While the Jews also considered the "Oral Tradition/Law" just as Sacred as the Hebrew Canon, Christ Jesus set the boundaries of the OT Canon by condemning the "Oral Law" as nothing more than the teachings of men, See Mark 7:6 - which is a quote from Isaiah (see context) - that put heavy burdens on the backs of the Jews, See: Mtt 23:2-4 and Luke 11:46.

There were over 600 such regulations and laws in the "Oral Law" that the Pharisees lorded over the Jewish people. Obviously Lord Jesus was not scolding his Father in Heaven for these burdensome regulations and laws.

Jesus did not condemned all Tradition; that is absurd! The Bible itself is the result of tradition!

If you read those scriptural passages Jesus spells out exactly what traditions he is condemning such as the ceremonial washing of the hands and being able to fosake mother and father by making an offering to God ...

Engage RE:

If that is the case, then you admit the RCC to be in error, for they never included the Talmud in their OT Canon as Divine Revelation from God. And the RCC condemned the Talmud as a forbidden book:

Lateran Council (1215) inspired by Pope Innocent III - decreed the Talmud as a forbidden book and ordered it to be confiscated and burned.

Pope Paul IV issued his Papal Bull, cum nimis absurdum, on July 12, 1555 -decreed, among other things, the burning of the Talmud as a forbidden book.

Pius IX in 1846 after several months of rest, reestablished the Papal Bull of Pope Paul IV until Rome was conquered by Italy.

The Talmud also attacks Christians, Christ Jesus and Mary - with many lies and fables.

Therefore, for over 600 years! the Jews were under persecution by the RCC, and the Talmud was being confiscated and burned along with other Jewish Holy Books.

As far as I know, the Papal Bulls cannot - and never were - rescinded. How could they be - since the Pope himself, as the Vicar of Christ, divinely decreed it?

The Talmud, in actuality is nothing more or less than a combination of rules and regulations, history, and tradition.

God never - in any Passage in Scripture - spoke favorably of oral tradition of the Jews - although He recognized the Pharisees’ authority to sit in Moses' seat.

If you really wish to believe that Christ accepted as Divine Revelation every one of the over 600 regulations and ordinances of the Oral Tradition of the Jews - except for a few - then I would say you have a real problem here.

Because, how does washing the hands and a couple other laws Lord Jesus criticized "place Heavy Loads on the Jews that they are barely able to carry" verse

4"? And, that prevent them from ever being saved: verses 14, 15.

What is so burdensome about washing your hands or not helping your mother? Consider that one the next time you remember your parents telling you to wash your hands before eating! Little did they no what an impossible burden they were placing you under!

I want you to skim through the Oral Law (Talmud) and tell me how you come to the conclusion that Christ validated all these hundreds of ridiculous laws and regulations.

While Jesus gave a few examples of how the Oral Tradition disagrees with the commands of God, that does not indicate that God the Father or Christ Jesus accepted the 600 other such regulations in the Oral Law. Look at the context:

Also, if you read the rest of Matthew 23:14-25 you will see that Lord Jesus gives more than just a couple examples of how the oral tradition is false. See also: Matthew 15:1-10; Mark 7:9-13 and Luke 11:37-52. And Lord Jesus himself said "and other things you do like this", meaning He was giving examples.

The "oral Law" of the Pharisees was nothing more than the traditions of men that, in actuality, desecrated the "KEY" of salvation for the Jews.

Luke 11:52 Woe to you experts in the Law, because you have taken away the Key of Knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.

15 Woe to you, teachers of the Law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

Lord Jesus condemned the ORAL Law as nothing more than the "traditions of men": This was a general condemnation of the Oral Law as nothing more than the traditions of men.

Mark 7:6 He [Jesus] replied, "Isaiah

was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

Lord Jesus quoted this from Isaiah 29:13 which clearly indicates that - even as far back as Isaiah's time - this condemnation by Lord Jesus is referring to the Oral Law

in general which in actuality placed HEAVY LOADS on the backs of the Jews.

The Bible itself is the result of tradition!

The Vatican Council (1870)

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm

"The Seat of Moses? Leviticus? Exodus? Numbers? Dueteronomy? Isaiah? Malachi? NO!NE OF THOSE! You will find it in Jewish tradition which was

sacred and upheld by Jesus!!! So Jesus relies also on tradition and not just the written Word!

Engage RE: The language of the people was different than it was thousands of years ago. There is no reason why Lord Jesus could not use a familiar phrase of the people of that time that the people understood.

Using the term "Moses Seat" was an effective way of communicating to His listeners the idea of authority that Christ Jesus recognized for the Scribes and Pharisees. None of this proves that Lord Jesus bows to the Tradition of the Jews as Divine Revelation.

I am skipping some of your replies here because they were already covered in depth earlier.

Now the Law of Moses say's: "If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to

death." Leviticus 20:10

Did Jesus violate the scriptures which he upheld?? ...

Engage RE: Your answer above shows me that you are no different in your thinking towards Jesus then the people who were questioning Jesus in the above Passage.

Lord Jesus never said He relied on tradition - rather, because of their refusal of HIM, He pronounced condemnation to the Scribes and Pharisees as follows:

In the other replies, you attempt to prove that we should not have to rely on the Holy Scriptures to determine if someone like the RCC is teaching the Truth like the noble Bereans did. Rather, we should just accept everything the RCC tells us - even if they do teach a false gospel.

If Plenary Divine Scripture cannot be relied upon as the final authority, then what good is Holy Scripture to the Faithful Christian?

If we are going to be judged by the things written in the Books, then who am I to think I can rely on Tradition of the RCC when I am judged by The Written

Revelation 20:12 "...And the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. "

As I have already shown you, those Books could only have included those of the

Therefore, everyone will be judged by what is written in ALL those Books:

2Tim3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

Churches were scattered everywhere throughout the world, but united in the Foundation - which is Christ.

If a church organization - like the RCC - should say that the Foundation is rather Jesus and Mary instead, and teach me to do things contrary to what God instructs us - like praying to anyone else in Heaven but God through the Name of Jesus - then I will not listen to them.

How do we know what "tradition" means? We must look the word up in the Dictionary - because "tradition" is an English Word.

The definition for "tradition" is in the Webster's Dictionary as follows:

another, whether divine (1 Cor. 11:2; 2 Thess. 2:15; 3:6) or human (Matt. 15:2, 3, 6; Gal. 1:14; Col. 2:8)."

Tradition cannot be relied upon - as history shows again and again - and can readily be witnessed in the abominable way the RCC has replaced the Gospel of Christ with their Tradition. That is why the Holy Scriptures reveal that the Written Word has THE Authority.

The RCC is the broad road to destruction. The Narrow Way is Christ - and few their be that find it.

Sincerely,

Steven

Subject: Re: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

Date: 3/15/2002 11:38 PM Central Standard Time

Message-id: <20020316003834.02767.00001177@mb-ce.aol.com>

Engage RE: You stated correctly concerning the fact the Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth.

What is the Truth? - the Gospel of Christ, SEE: verse 16.

"Church" means: "called out ones". In other words, The Body of Believers make up the "Church" - God's household.

And wherever these called out ones are gathered throughout the world, God - by the Holy Spirit - calls Godly leaders and teachers to proclaim that Sacred Written Word to them - just as Christ and the Apostles did.

The Gospel of Christ does not refer to the Bible. The Bible contains the Gospel which the Catholic Church proclaimed! It is true that "Church" which is the english translation of "Ekklesia" (Greek) and Ecclesia (Latin) means "called out ones" but you are seeing "Called Out Ones" from an Evangelical/Fundementalist view which is stuck in the 20th century. The Greek and Latin words Ekklesia, Ecclesia respectively are too be seen from a first, second, and third century perspective. The Called Out Ones were called out from the Synagogues, and the Gentile world to form the universal body of Christ by virtue of what they believed and confessed. These universal called out ones formed a Universal Church which was and is the Catholic Church! The Church gave us the Bible and not visa versa. The Church is infallible when teaching on faith and morals and that is why the Church had the authority to tell us what writings are truly inspired and belong in a collective canon called "The Bible." The Church protected and copied the Bible for 16 centuries before the Protestant Reformation. Let us just look at some of the anceint writings of the Church Fathers to see what these called out ones believed and taught.

They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer,(7) because they confess not the Eucharist to be the flesh of our Saviour Jesus Christ, which suffered for our sins, and which the Father, of His goodness, raised up again. Those, therefore, who speak against this gift of God, incur death...

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution(17) of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper(18) Eucharist, which is[administered] either even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. St. Ignatius Epistle to the Smyraeans 107 a.d.

And in the Gospel our Lord Jesus Christ spoke with His divine voice, saying, "Except a man be born again of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."(8) This is the Spirit which from the beginning was borne over the waters; for neither can the Spirit operate without the water, nor the water without the Spirit. Certain people therefore interpret for themselves ill, when they say that by imposition of the hand they receive the Holy Ghost, and are thus received, when it is manifest that they ought to be born again in the Catholic Church by both sacraments. Then indeed they will be able to be sons of God, as says the apostle: "Taking care to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body, and one Spirit, as ye have been called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God."(9) All these things speaks the Catholic Church.(10) And again, in the Gospel the Lord says: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit; because God is a Spirit, and he is born of God."(11) Therefore, whatsoever things all heretics and schismatics do are carnal, as the apostle says: "For the works of the flesh are manifest, which are, fornications, uncleannesses, incest, idolatries, witchcrafts, hatreds, contentions, jealousy, anger, divisions, heresies, and the like to these; concerning which have told you before, as I also foretell you now, that whoever do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."(12) And thus the apostle condemns, with all the wicked, those also who cause division, that is, schismatics and heretics. Unless therefore they receive saving baptism in the Catholic Church, which is one, they cannot be saved, but will be

condemned with the carnal in the judgment of the Lord Christ.

Januarius of Lambesis(13) said: According to the authority(14) of the Holy Scriptures, I decree that all heretics must be baptized, and so admitted into the holy Church.

Lucius of Castra Galbae(15) said: Since the Lord in His Gospel said, "Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt should have lost its savour, wherewith shall it be salted? It is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out of doors, and to be trodden under foot of men."(1) And again, after His resurrection, sending His apostles, He gave them charge, saying, "All power is given unto me, in heaven and in earth. Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."(2) Since, therefore, it is manifest that heretics--that is, the enemies of Christ--have not the sound confession of the sacrament; moreover, that schismatics cannot season others with spiritual wisdom, since they themselves, by departing from the Church, which is one, having lost the savour, have become contrary to it,--let it be done as it is written, "The house of those that are contrary to the law owes a cleansing."(3) And it is a consequence that those who, having been baptized by people who are contrary to the Church, are polluted, must first be cleansed, and then at length be baptized.

Crescens of Cirta(4) said: In such an assembly of most holy fellow- priests, as the letters of our most beloved Cyprian to Jubaianus and also to Stephen have been read, containing in them so much of the holy testimonies which descend from the divinely made Scriptures, that with reason we ought, all being made one by the grace of God, to consent to them; I judge that all heretics and schismatics who wish to come to the Catholic Church, shall not be allowed to enter without they have first been exorcised and baptized; with the exception of those indeed who may previously have been baptized in the Catholic Church, and these in such a way that they may be reconciled to the penitence of the Church by the imposition of hands. Cyprian of Carthage 170a.d.

Engage123: And the Christian body is to determine if these leaders and teachers are really an authority of God by testing everything they say by Scripture.

Dave RE: Wrong! The Bible does not teach Sola Scriptura. Everything was measured by what the Church taught! The Bible teaches that the Church is the manifold wisdom of God (Ephes 3:10) and the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15). It doesn't say "the Bible is the manifold wisdom of God" nor does it say "the Bible is the pillar and foundation of truth." God gave us a Church to teach and guide us and His Church is guided by the Holy Spirit.

Engage123: If these leaders and teachers preach to them that they are to follow and pray to or depend on anyone but God the Father in Heaven through Christ Jesus our only Mediator, Redeemer and Savior, then we should reject those false prophets.

Dave RE: Wrong! If those leaders and teachers preach anything contrary to what the Church teaches they are to be condemned!

GAL 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel-- 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

This was written by the same man who called the Catholic Church the manifold wisdom of God and the Pillar and foundation of truth! Therefore, the true Gospel is the One which the Catholic Church teaches and preaches and not a 20th century truncated version of it!

Engage123 quotes 1 John 4,1: Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

We must see these verses from a 1st, 2nd, and 3rd century view of them and not a 16th century Reformers view or a 20th century evangelical/fundementalist view which is a hodgepodge of anceint heresies.

All True Christians are "Christians" (Body of Believers) because they understand and have come to believe this Truth - the Gospel of Salvation/The New Covenant in Christ.

Which "truth?" "Once saved always saved?" Or perhaps "the truth" that salvation can be lost after we receive Jesus as "Personal Lord and Saviour?"

Is pre-destination the truth or is double predestination the truth? Which is the truth between Lutherans and Pentecostals? Baptism is an infusion of grace and therefore babies are baptized? Or Baptism follows salvation and therefore Babies are disqualified from being baptized? The list of contradictory doctrines goes on in this "collective body" of believers and therefore they are disqualified from being the manifold wisdom of God and the Pillar and foundation of truth. The "collective body" of believers is nothing more then an ecclesiastical "Tower of Babal." God is not the author of confusion!

Engage123: These True Christians listen to Christ as their Shepherd, and they follow HIM. They do not add onto the Gospel, or pray to the deceased or angels, or go to Mary and pray to her for their salvation - because Christ told them to come to HIM and to pray to God in Heaven through His Name.

Dave RE: First of all Engage, there is no prohibition in the Bible against pititioning the prayers of departed saints or angels. There is no prohibition in the Bible against praying for the departed. The prohibition comes from Protestant tradition and not apostolic tradition. As a matter of fact consider the following scriptural passage:

HEB 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

HEB 12:25 See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we turn away from him who warns us from heaven?

As you can see, the book of Hebrews clearly says we can come to Angels and the Spirit of Righteous men made perfect! These are departed saints. The Church of the First Born are the Apostles and disciples including Mary! It even goes on to say if Angels or departed saints speak to us from heaven we better listen!!! (Like Fatima). Secondly, if we cannot come to Mary who has been made perfect and is glorified in Heaven (Rev 12:1) because Jesus said we can come directly to the Father through Jesus, then by the same reasoning we can say we don't need to ask those saints on earth for their prayers because we can go directly to the Father through Jesus. However, that doesn't quite fit does it? The Bible tells us to pray for each other. The assumption that Protestants apply to the text is that praying for each other ceases when a saint departs this life; that assumption is false! Let us further examine the scriptures:

Matt 17:3 Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus. MT 17:4 Peter said to Jesus, "Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters--one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah."

If we cannot talk with the spirits of righteous men made perfect (Departed Saints) and they cannot pray for us or even know what we are doing on earth then why did Moses and Elijah appear before Jesus and his apostles and held a conversation with the two departed saints? Why would the Holy Spirit allow such a verse to be in scripture? The answer is because departed saints do know what is happening on earth and they do pray for us, hear our prayer

request, and sometimes even appear to us with messages from heaven. Let us further examine the scriptures:

12 *What he saw was this: Onias, the former high priest, a good and virtuous man, modest in appearance, gentle in manners, distinguished in speech, and trained from childhood

in every virtuous practice, was praying with outstretched arms for the whole Jewish community.

13 Then in the same way another man appeared, distinguished by his white hair and dignity, and with an air about him of extraordinary, majestic authority.

14 *Onias then said of him, "This is God's prophet Jeremiah, who loves his brethren and fervently prays for his people and their holy city."

15 Stretching out his right hand, Jeremiah presented a gold sword to Judas. As he gave it to him he said, 16 "Accept this holy sword as a gift from God; with it you shall crush your adversaries." 2 Maccabees 15:12-16

As we can see from this scripture both the departed saints Onias and Jeremiah are praying for Israel. The bottom line here is that the Catholic Church is right in teaching the communion of saints because it is a doctrine handed down by the Apostles which is the original deposit of faith. The Protestant Church has no authority to correctly interpret the scriptures and that is why they reject the communion of saints, a doctrine always believed and taught by the whole Church for more then 1500 years before the Reformation.

Engage123: Therefore, the "Church" is the Pillar and foundation of this "Truth", for how could they be anything else and still be "Christian"? For how were they "called out"? Were they not called out by the Gospel to follow Christ and look to HIM ONLY our Mediator, Intercessor, Redeemer and Savior in Heaven who meets all our needs?

You are now changing the meaning of the text. The "Pillar and foundation of truth" refers to doctrine on faith and morals. This cannot be a "collective body of believers" from all different denominations because one believers "truth" is unequal to the next. Protestants cannot even agree on esential doctrines such as salvation and grace so they are utterly disqualified from being the "pillar and foundation of truth." A church that is the "Pillar and foundation of truth" is the final authority when it comes to teaching faith and morals because that Church is infallible when teaching divine revelation and it is impossible for it to error because it's teachings are protected by the Holy Spirit which guides this Church unto all truth (John 16:13). The Protestant Church's say that the Bible is the final authority when teaching faith and morals (Sola Scriptura). The problem with this teaching is that it leaves the Bible in the hands of men whose teaching abilities are not only fallible but down right prejudice. Unless the teacher of the scriptures is teaching them with infallibility, then what they teach from the scriptures is really NOT Divine Revelation but men giving us their OPINION on what God is saying. The Catholic Church however; maintains rightly that the Church is the final authority when teaching divine revelation because the Church is the manifold wisdom of God (Ephes 3:10) and the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15).

Engage123: Hebrews 7:23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood. 25 Therefore He is able to

SAVE COMPLETELY those who

COME TO GOD THROUGH HIM, because

HE always lives to INTERCEDE for them.

26 Such a High Priest meets our need -

one who is HOLY, BLAMELESS,

PURE, SET APART from

sinners,

exalted above the heavens.

Dave RE: Of course I do not disagree with any of the scripture you have cited, I am in complete harmony with it. What I dissagree with is your interpration of the text which is evangelical/fundementalist interpration and not apostolic! Steve, go backwards in ecclesiastical history. You will find that as you go backwards in time the Church becomes more and more Catholic until it is pure Catholic for 1500 years! Look at the writings of the Reformers and see how they viewed the scriptures, you will find it is very different then your interpration. So this brings us right back to the issue of AUTHORITY. The Protestant Church has no authority to teach divine revelation but the Catholic Church does and has had this authority for 2000 years (Matthew

16:16-19)!

Engage writes: Now, if the RCC teaches contrary to the

Gospel by adding:

Dave RE: Once again Steve, your interpration of the scriptures is based on Evangelical/Fundementalist view of them and they are a prostitute church whose origins are from "the ladder days" and not part of the original deposit of faith handed down by the Apostles. We can discuss such teachings as Salvation, Grace and works, and purgatory and I can show you how the scriptures best fit the Catholic interpration of them. However, to start such a discussion starts here; the foundational error of Sola Scriptura which is a foundation made of sand!

Engage writes: That is exactly what the RCC has done. Therefore, Scripture reveals the RCC to be a FALSE PROPHET. They have changed the Gospel and stand eternally condemned!

Such strong words Steve! I would remind you that the Catholic Church came before evangelicals and fundementalist, infact, they came about 1900 years before! The truth is that Evangelicals/Fundementalist have perverted the gospel of Christ! If the Catholic Church is eternally condemned then they would have fallen centuries ago. However, the Catholic Church is as vibrant as ever. God would never allow an evil organization to last for 2000 years. The Catholic Church has stood stronger and longer then histories greatest governments and empires including the The Greek Empire, The Roman Empire, The Union of Soviet Socialist Republic, the Third Reich, and even the United States of America! Everyone of these governments excluding the ladder have fallen because of wickedness; but not the Catholic Church! The reason why the Catholic Church has not fallen is because it is God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Engage writes: Galatians 1:8 "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel

other than the one we preached to you - let him be eternally condemned!"

Dave RE: What you are failing to grasp Steve is that When St Paul say's " "other then the one we preach to you" he is not preaching the Evangelical/Fundementalist views, interprations, and

understandings of the scriptures. He is preaching the Catholic view of the scriptures! Therefore, Galatians 1:8 is condemning the Gnostics teachings. The Gnostics denied the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, the Gnostics claimed that salvation comes by a special knowledge of Christ. The Gnostics denied that baptism was neccassary for salvation and that the eucharist was only symbolic. Evangelical/Fundementalist views of the scriptures are very Gnostic in doctrine. Therefore St Paul's charge in Galatians 1:8 applies to Evangelicals/Fundementalist Church's and not the Catholic Church which Saint Paul called the manifold wisdom of God and the Pillar and foundation of truth

Engage writes: How do we test whether a Church authority is preaching a True or False Gospel? We do it the same way the Noble New Testament saints did it. We open up the HOLY SCRIPTURE and read them to see if what these supposed leaders are saying is really there.

Acts 17:11 "Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true."

1 John 4:1 Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world.

1 John 4:1 does not tell us to test these spirits using the scriptures alone!

Only Christ is praised as being worthy in the Book of Revelation because HE ALONE was sinless and redeemed mankind from sin and death to be children of God.

Dave RE: This is a strawman argument because we are discussing whether or not the Catholic Church is the Church Jesus started and the Church of the New Testament.

Engage writes: The host of heaven do not surround Jesus and Mary as the Catholic Church teaches.

Dave RE: First cite what the Catholic Church teaches and then compare it to scripture and we can debate it from there. Just because you say the Bible doesn't agree with the Catholic Church's doctrines doesn't make it so.

Engage writes: Rather, ONLY THE FATHER AND SON are surrounded by the heavenly host in heaven in all of Revelation.

Dave RE: Only the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are to be worshipped and glorified! We Catholics proffess this in our creed in every Mass. So your point is moot. Mary is Glorified in Heaven (Rev 21:1), she has been given a place of great authority by God even above the Angels! But Mary is not to be worshipped and glorified. Instead she is to be honored, loved and respected because she is the Mother of the Church and she will pray for those who ask for her prayers and her prayers are powerful and effective. To him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.

Subject: Re: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

Date: 3/18/2002 7:28 PM Central Standard Time

Message-id: <20020318202847.14491.00003013@mb-fc.aol.com>

Dave, what I am writing to you in my reply is not a personal attack on your faith. Rather, I am at variance with what the RCC teaches as the Gospel - which you say is taught in the Bible.

You mentioned in your Message to me that the Protestant denominations can't be the True Church because they all disagree on baptism and Lord's Supper.

Do not ALL Protestants baptize believers in Christ, as Christ instructs us to do in His Word?

Do not ALL the Protestant Denominations celebrate the Lords Supper as Christ commanded us?

All questions are affirmative.

We can debate the details of how God works through these things - which would accomplish nothing. If we Trust God, we will obey what He told us to do. That is all God really requires of us as Faithful followers of Christ - To trust HIM.

Is the RCC trusting God - as the Protestants do - with their dogmas concerning Mary, Purgatory, Works to keep us Justified, or praying to angels and the spirits of the deceased? NO - not according to the Bible.

Are most Protestant denominations trusting in God in their pure Devotion to Christ and HIS WORD? YES - Just as the Bible instructs His Church. For Christ is the Foundation.

1 Corinthians 3:11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

The Scriptures teach us many times that there would be false prophets and church organizations (Rev 2-3) from within the True Church (called out ones) who would attempt to pervert the Gospel.

That is why the Apostles told us to test the Spirits to see whether they are True or False. Since we are judged by the things written in the Books (Rev20:12), I can do no other but to trust the Bible - God's Divine Revelation to man - just as the Bereans did and of which Paul stated contained all we need for Salvation.

2Tim3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,

You mentioned in your Message that my view of the True Church being the "Called Out Ones" who follow Christ is evangelical and not the "Biblical" one that the RCC holds to. Yet your definition of the "Called Out Ones" is the same as mine. So, what is your point?

The Church gave us the Bible and not visa versa. The Church is infallible when teaching on faith and morals and that is why the Church had the authority to tell us what writings are truly inspired and belong in a collective canon called "The Bible."

God gave us HIS WORD. Within the Church organization there are godly followers of Christ (1 Peter 1:1) along with those who would pervert the Gospel and Word of God - as Christ and the Apostles warned us would happen! The Wheat and Tares must grow together until the end.

There are true and false church organizations in this world with the Elect of Christ (called out ones, 1 Peter 1:1 ) scattered among them (See Rev 2-3). The Elect are the True Church - according to Scripture – not an organization. In other words, the True Church is an organism – the Body of Christ in whom the Spirit of Christ indwells. It is this True Church that follows Christ and His instruction within the Inspired Word of God – IT IS WRITTEN!

God, who is in control, chose Godly followers of Christ to gather together the Divine Revelation of the Apostles and Epistle Writers and form the New Testament Canon. Thank God for His Power and Faithfulness in leaving us His Word and for choosing Godly men to preserve His Word.

The Gospel of Christ does not refer to the Bible. The Bible contains the Gospel which the Catholic Church proclaimed!

Engage RE: How I wish that were true. In reality, the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) is a "church organization Rev 2-3" not proclaiming the same Gospel that the Bible (God’s DIVINE REVELATION to Man) contains (AS YOU STATED ABOVE) - rather, they are fulfilling prophecy as follows:

In the above Scripture, and many others, The Foundation (Christ, The Prophets, The Apostles) revealed to us that, men would arise - even within the Church - who would distort the Truth and draw away the disciples after them - rather than directing them to trust in Christ.

Firstly:

The Biblical view of the Gospel is centered on Christ as our one Savior, Redeemer, Mediator, and Intercessor in Heaven who meets our need - which is the foundation of the Church.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is One God and One Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus..

Hebrews 7:23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood.

EXALTED ABOVE THE HEAVENS.

Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in NO ONE ELSE, for there is NO OTHER NAME under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.

Christ Jesus and the Apostles - by divine teaching and application - instructed us to help each other on earth and to pray for each other to our God and Father in heaven through the name of our only Mediator in Heaven - Christ Jesus.

Christ Jesus and the Apostles only directed us to pray to God in heaven - through Christ - for all our needs and for our salvation by divine teaching and by application.

In fact all the Scriptures in the ENTIRE BIBLE teach us that true Believers in God only prayed to God in heaven for all their needs. Praying to the spirits of the deceased was FORBIDDEN.

Matthew 6:6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you.

Matthew 6:8 Do not be like them, for your Father know what you need before you ask Him.

Matthew 7:9 Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask Him!

There are no Scriptures that state or imply that Christians on earth are to pray to the spirits of the deceased or to angels. Rather we are constantly told to rely on God, and give pure devotion to Christ.

For the FOUNDATION of the Christian faith is Christ and was revealed to us by: The Prophets, The Apostles, and Christ Jesus himself - being the Chief Cornerstone:

1 Corinthians 3:11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ.

the Gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, member together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

The RCC is rather instructing us to give Pure Devotion to the RCC for salvation rather than GOD's HOLY WORD. For instance, the worst of all blasphemies the RCC teaches concerns Mary - the mother of Jesus.

Date: 3/19/2002 1:44 AM Central Standard Time

Message-id: <20020319024442.24789.00003568@mb-mv.aol.com>

1985: Pope John Paul II in a speech in Guayaquil, Ecuador said in part,

"Inside the Vatican," 1997-JUL, Page 23; as cited in Reference 3.

As St. Irenaeus says, "being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and

for the whole human race." Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert ...: "The knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith." Comparing her with Eve, they call Mary "the Mother of the living" and frequently claim: "Death through Eve, life through Mary." (pp. 124,125)

Mary's role in the Church is inseparable from her union with Christ and flows directly from it. "This union of the mother with the Son in the work of salvation is made manifest from the time of Christ's virginal conception up to his death"; it is made manifest above all at the hour of his Passion:

Quoted from "THE DEFINITION" as follows (highlighting mine):

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

HOPED-FOR RESULTS

We have, therefore, a very certain hope and complete confidence that the most Blessed Virgin will ensure by her most powerful patronage that all difficulties be removed and all errors dissipated, so that our Holy Mother the Catholic Church may flourish daily more and more throughout all the nations and countries, and may reign "from sea to sea and from the river to the ends of the earth," and may enjoy genuine peace, tranquility and liberty.

We are firm in our confidence that she

will obtain pardon for the sinner,

health for the sick,

strength of heart for the weak,

consolation for the afflicted,

help for those in danger;

that she will remove spiritual blindness from all who are in error, so that they may return to the path of truth and justice, and that here may be one flock and one shepherd.

Let all the children of the Catholic Church, who are so very dear to us, hear these words of ours.

under her patronage,

under her kindness and protection,

And since she has been appointed by God to be the

Given at St. Peter's in Rome, the eighth day of December, 1854, in the eighth year of our pontificate. Pius IX http://www.newadvent.org/docs/pi09id.htm

Subject: Re: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

Date: 3/19/2002 1:52 AM Central Standard Time

Message-id: <20020319025202.24773.00003238@mb-mv.aol.com>

Compare what the Gospel of the Bible states about Christ with what the RCC claims about Mary...

Just as Christ is King over all things,

Just as Christ is One Mediator over all people,

Just as Christ is our Redeemer,

Just as Christ crushed the serpent's head, and bringing salvation to the world,

Just as Christ suffered for our sins,

Just as Christ is the NEW Adam,

Just as Christ was resurrected and rose bodily into heaven,

Just as Christ was sinless and all holy,

Just as Christ, and through His Name, do we pray to for all our needs and for our salvation,

Just as we have LIFE through Christ,

Just as Christ remained celebate all his life,

Just as Christ is the head of the Church,

Just as Christ's intercession - as our only Mediator and High priest -- to the Father bring about our Salvation,

Just as devotion to Christ alone is the epitome of the Gospel (Pure Devotion to Christ our only Mediator, Redeemer, and Savior),

Whatever Christ did in the Gospel of Salvation,

I could go on further, but I think I made my point. The RCC has perverted the Gospel of Christ bringing swift condemnation on themselves and all those who blindly follow them.

The Gospel of Scripture gives glory and position to Christ alone in heaven as Mediator, Intercessor, Savior, Redeemer in who’s name the Word of God instructs us to Pray to the Father for all our needs and for our salvation.

If I am guilty of anything it is upholding Christ Jesus as our only Redeemer, Saviour, Intercessor in Heaven, and Mediator -- Just as the Scriptures state.

Mary is not anywhere to be found next to Jesus - on the right and of her Son - in the Book of Revelation as Queen of Heaven and Earth.

You look through the entire Book of Revelation and NOT ONCE do the angels, the 24 elders, or the saints around the throne ever praise, give glory to, or even hint at MARY. Mary is not even mentioned.

CC 1053 "We believe that the multitude of those gathered around Jesus and Mary in Paradise forms the Church of heaven, ..." (p. 274)

"Because, while bearing toward us a truly motherly affection and having in her care the work of our salvation, she is solicitous about the whole human race.

obtains. Her pleas can never be unheard."

[Ineffabilis Deus Apostolic Constitution of Pope Pius IX on the Immaculate Conception (December 8, 1854) "THE DEFINITION" (highlighting mine)

Given at St. Peter's in Rome, the eighth day of December, 1854, in the eighth year of our pontificate. Pius IX http://www.newadvent.org/docs/pi09id.htm]

The last mention of the Believers and the throne is in the NEW KINGDOM - AFTER THE RESURRECTION. Certainly Mary is included here! NOPE!!

Revelation 22:1 Then the angel showed me the River of the Water of Life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the Throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city.

Revelation 22:3 No longer will there be any curse. The Throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the City, and his servants will serve Him.

Yet, the RCC has ADDED Mary into the Prophecy of Revelation as follows:

CC 1053 "We believe that the multitude of those gathered around Jesus and Mary in Paradise forms the Church of heaven, ..." (p. 274)

Is this part of the Gospel - that you say the Bible teaches?

I could go on further, but I think I made my point. The RCC has perverted the Gospel of Christ bringing swift condemnation on themselves and all those who blindly follow them.

The Gospel of Scripture gives glory and position to Christ alone in heaven as Mediator, Intercessor, Savior, and Redeemer. The RCC ADDED Mary to the FOUNDATION - who is Christ.

HE ALONE redeemed mankind.

HE ALONE was found worthy, and praised in heaven as worthy, because HE ALONE remained sinless and redeemed those who come to HIM.

No mention of Mary at the right hand of Jesus in all of Revelation.

No saints are gathered around Mary and Jesus in Heaven in the Book of Revelation.

The Roman Catholic Church has deceived you.

Thus the RCC will suffer the addition of MORE plagues then the ones described in that Book.

Revelation 22:18 I warn everyone who hears the words of the Prophecy of this Book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this Book.

Notwithstanding, the RCC is already condemned for adding Mary onto the Gospel of Christ.

Mary, along with all the other Saints, are serving and praising God the Father and His Son.

Then, somewhere in the Entire Bible we would see some hint of these doctrines.

But, from Genesis to the last chapter of Revelation, no such position is given to Mary.

And the Book of Revelation would give some indication that the saints are centered around Jesus and Mary in heaven.

I am convinced from studying God's Holy Word, that the RCC is teaching Total Blasphemy against the One True God and to The Gospel of Christ which God Himself provided for us.

But what position in His Church did LORD JESUS actually give to His Mother?

NOTE: While Mary was blessed in that she of all women was graced with the privilege of giving birth to the Savior, Jesus Christ,

What did Lord Jesus himself think of his Mother?

John 2:3 When the wine ran short the mother of Jesus said to him: "They have no wine." 4 But Jesus said to her: "What have I to do with you, woman? My hour has not yet come."

Notice that, NOT ONCE, did Jesus call Mary his mother. Why?? Was not Jesus, in reality, Mary's LORD and SAVIOR. She was no more than a humble earthly vessel that God used to bring Christ into the world.

And, although Lord Jesus did finally grant Mary's request, keep in mind that Christ never refused anyone who pleaded for His help during His earthly ministry.

When the crowed yelled to Lord Jesus that his mother, brothers and sisters were calling for Him, Jesus did and stated the following:

When Mary and her other children came to get Jesus and take him home - because they thought he was out of His mind, Jesus said the following:

This would indicate that Mary was not sinless. For this incident shows a lack of Faith in her son as the Son of God. For Mary did not go to see Jesus to hear His words of wisdom and to worship Him. Rather, she came to rescue Him from himself and to stop Him from preaching.

The Scriptures state that ALL OF SINNED. To make Mary an exception would be to call God a liar, and would also mean that you are not in the Truth:

1John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have NOT SINNED, we make HIM out to be a LIAR and HIS WORD has NO PLACE IN OUR LIVES.

This, however, doesn't mean that His Mother, Mary, and His brothers, didn't afterwards come to believe on Jesus and get filled with the Holy Spirit, for they were in the Upper Room on the day of Pentecost with the other 120:

Acts 1:14 They all joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.

Subject: Re: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

Date: 3/19/2002 2:16 AM Central Standard Time

Message-id: <20020319031633.24789.00003577@mb-mv.aol.com>

Luke 11:27,28 While Jesus was saying these things, one of the women

in the crowd raised her voice and said to Him,

"Blessed is the womb that bore You and the breasts at which You nursed."

But He said,

Was Mary regarded in any greater way than the others who believed in Christ? From reading the Scriptures, I am under the impression that Lord Jesus was trying to avoid his Mother rather than honor her in the way your Church teaches she should be honored.

Lord Jesus rather honored those who hear the Word of God and obey it – AS HIS MOTHER, BROTHER and SISTER. Lord Jesus did not appear to include His mother as one of those who heard the word of God and did it. Perhaps Mary was not the pure, holy and faithful woman of God as the RCC makes her out to be.

Last mention of Mary in the Scriptures is described as "a women":

Gal 4:4 But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law,

At this late date, if the Apostle Paul had considered Mary to be any more then "a women" he would have had an excellent opportunity to do so.

We look at the Book of Revelation again and see absolutely no hint that Mary and Jesus are working together in Heaven to save mankind.

Therefore, follow Christ. Come to HIM alone. Obey His Word - not tradition. He is the only Mediator, Redeemer, Savior, Intercessor for ALL your needs in Heaven for us.

Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.

DAVE, I submit to you that the RCC is NOT teaching the same Gospel as taught in the Bible - as you stated. Rather, they are relying on the Traditions of men, which teach contrary to the Gospel.

Mark 7:6 He [Jesus] replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:

13 Woe to you, teachers of the Law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the Kingdom of Heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

15 Woe to you, teachers of the Law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are..

You are not relying on the wisdom of God's Word. Rather, you are relying on what the Magisterium of the RCC tells you. You know this is true, because: praying to the spirits of the deceased, and to the angels, and to Mary in heaven as your Queen of Heaven and Earth, Mediatrix, Savior, Co-redemptrix, Intercessor in Heaven, is not taught in Scripture - whether by teaching or by practice - in the entire Bible.

You stated your belief that Mary is proven to the the Queen of Heaven and earth in Revelation 12. A contextual analysis of Revelation 12 does not support your assertion on this matter. The very context of these Passages can only logically be referring the Faithful Church of Israel from whom the Seed – Jesus (verse 5) and the rest of her offspring – the Christian Church {called out ones} (verse 17) was to come. Make a note of the fact that – although the Apostle John is seeing a "wonderous sign in heaven", this "woman" is actually declared to be living on earth throughout Revelation 12. Notice that this "woman" is still on earth even after her son is caught up into heaven (verse 5). But how could that be if the "woman" is actually Mary?

If you choose to believe otherwise, then it is up to you to show the Scriptures that teach that Mary is given such position as Queen of Heaven and Earth.

And you must also show the Scriptures that teach that Mary is honored in the Book of Revelation as the Queen of Heaven and Earth and Mediator, Redeemer and Savior next to Lord Jesus with the saints of God surrounding them.

Rather than accept the clear testimony of Scripture, you are determined to look to the RCC and its "tradition" for your beliefs. The Bible takes the back seat. If tradition and the Bible disagree, tradition is the one you side with - because you are NOT a follower of Christ. Rather, you are a follower of the RCC.

DAVE, you say the RCC is teaching the same Gospel as that of the Bible. That is what you stated in your opening statement. Answer me these questions:

What did God say through Christ and the Apostles regarding prayer?

What did God say through Christ and the Apostles regarding the Gospel?

And who did all the believers in God pray to in heaven - in the entire Bible?

Purgatory and preserving our Justification through works are two other damnable heresies of the RCC. But their Doctrine about Mary is by far the worst.

Sincerely,

Steven

Subj: Re: Leaving the RCC pt2

Date: 3/19/2002 9:11:19 PM Central Standard Time

To: Engage123

Dear Steve: I read your arguments tonight. Before we get into complex doctrines of Mary you have to get passed Sola Scriptura and understand that the Catholic Church is the manifold wisdom of God and the pillar and foundation of truth. I understand that you are alarmed at the above citations from Vatican I because I was once like you. However; I assure you, that you do not fully understand what those documents are saying. For instance:

"crushed the poisonous head of the most cruel serpent and brought salvation to the world:"

Mary brought salvation to the world NOT because she died for our sins and was raised up again. Mary brought salvation to the World because she said "Yes" to God through the Angel Gabriel to being the Mother of the Messiah. Mary brought salvation to the World by giving birth and raising the One who provided redemption and salvation to all and that is Jesus Christ our Lord and Saviour. The scriptures say's that Jesus is the "New Adam" Likewise, Sacred Tradition (The Word of God handed down orally by the Apostles) teaches us Mary is the "new Eve." Adam disobeyed God. Christ obeyed His Father and laid down his life for the sheep. Mary submitted to the perfect will of God and became "the Ark of the New Covenant" I believe every document of Vatican I & II as well as all other Church Councils held by the Catholic Church both eastern and western or Ecuminical. However, you are trying to make an argument where a foundation has not even been built yet. Therefore I am going to hammar home the facts and truth that the Church which Christ gave us is the Catholic Church and that by the divine will of God, it is the final authority on doctrines of faith and morals and that it is also the author and publisher of the Bible. Once we get passed this we can discuss the Communion of Saints which is where marian doctrines come from.

YOURS IN CHRIST,

SUPER SAVED CATHOLIC DAVE

Subj: RE: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

Date: 3/22/2002 2:54:31 AM Central Standard Time

To: SprSvdCathDave

Hi Dave,

I read your response and can see your sincerity of faith. I understand what you are saying about how the RCC doctrines concerning Mary were developed. But do you notice the snowball effect concerning Marian doctrine that grew from several seemingly innocent suppositions concerning Mary?

As for Mary in Revelation 12 . . .

I read your arguments concerning Revelation 12 on the "Queen of Heaven" board as you suggested. I looked at Revelation 12 again to see if Mary could possibly fit the context. After an objective and careful study, I really cannot see any logical possibility for that kind of interpretation of Revelation 12. The following is why I have come to this conclusion. If you have any insight to share about this let me know.

I believe the very context would have to be referring to Israel from whom the Seed – Jesus (verse 5) and the rest of her offspring – the Christian Church {called out ones} (verse 17) was to come. I have good reasons for stating this.

Just from a passing review of Revelation 12 we learn – right off the bat – that this "woman" is living [ON EARTH] being persecuted by the Dragon all through this time period – the tribulation? - in Revelation 12). Remember too that John is seeing in Heaven a "great and wondrous sign". This is evident, for the "woman" is still on earth even after her son is caught up into heaven to be with God as early as verse 5).

Once again, here is why I sincerely believe that Revelation 12 cannot be talking about Mary as Queen of Heaven and Earth, but rather Israel – the Wife and Bride of God:

Isaiah 66:7 Before she goes into labor, she gives birth; before the pains come upon her, she delivers a Son. 8 Who has ever heard of such a thing? Who has ever seen such things? Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? Yet no sooner is Zion in labor than she give birth to her children. 9 "Do I bring to the moment of birth and not give delivery?" Says the LORD. "Do I close up the womb when I bring to delivery?" says your God. 10 Rejoice with Jerusalem and be glad for her; rejoice greatly with her, all you who mourn over her. 11 For you will nurse and be satisfied at her comforting breasts; you will drink deeply and delight in her overflowing abundance."

Ephesians 3:4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit of God’s holy Apostles and Prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the Gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, member together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

Rom.4:16 "Therefore, the Promise comes by Faith, so that it may be by Grace, and may be guaranteed to All Abraham’s offspring."

Romans 11 uses a beautiful description of this fact in the illustration of the Olive Root (Israel) – see the context. Notice the branches refer to both Jews and Gentiles who remain in the promises of Israel by faith. Thus, being nourished by the sap of the Olive Root.

If you choose to believe that the "woman" in Revelation 12 is actually referring to Mary, then it is up to you to show the Scriptures that teach that Mary is given such position as Queen of Heaven and Earth.

And you must also show the Scriptures that teach that Mary is honored in the Book of Revelation as the Queen of Heaven and Earth and Mediator, Redeemer and Savior next to Lord Jesus with the saints of God surrounding them.

The clear testimony of Scripture, does not support the RCC and its "tradition". RCC Tradition and the Bible disagree.

DAVE, you say the RCC is teaching the same Gospel as that of the Bible. That is what you stated in your opening statement. Answer me these questions:

What did God say through Christ and the Apostles regarding Mary?

Who is the only Mediator and Intercessor in Heaven - who meets our needs?

Purgatory and preserving our Justification through works are two other damnable heresies of the RCC. But their Doctrine about Mary is by far the worst.

Sincerely,

Steven

Subject: Re: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

Date: 3/23/2002 3:20 PM Central Standard Time

Message-id: <20020323162032.11612.00003076@mb-cf.aol.com>

Dave, what I am writing to you in my reply is not a personal attack on your faith. Rather, I am at variance with what the RCC teaches as the Gospel - which you say is taught in the Bible.

You mentioned in your Message to me that the Protestant denominations can't be the True Church because they all disagree on baptism and Lord's Supper.

How do the Protestants disagree?

Do not ALL Protestants baptize believers in Christ, as Christ instructs us to do in His Word?

Do not ALL the Protestant Denominations celebrate the Lords Supper as Christ commanded us?

All questions are affirmative.

Dear Steve: your above argument is a strawman: all Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, and United Pentecostals celebrate the Lord's Supper and practice baptism too but does this make them the Pillar and foundation of truth? Every Christian denomination and cult practices the things they see and believe as being scriptural but obviously this is no guarantee of doctrinal truth and it is doctrinal truth which is the heart of our debate. Every main line Protestant denomination such as Presbyterian, Lutheran, Episcopal, Methodist, Congregationalist, and those denominations that resulted from the first two centuries after the Reformation believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and Infant Baptism. These Protestant denominations see the Eucharist and baptism as being absolutely necessary for salvation. Baptism is correctly seen by these denominations as an infusion of grace and that is why infants have always been baptized from the first century to the Protestant Reformation and until today. However, evangelicals do not see it that way. They see Salvation as accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior. They receive Christ by a one time "sinners prayer" and if they really meant it at the time they are forever saved! So I ask you again Steve, with such division in the Protestant Church on Christian doctrine how can the Church be a "collective body of believers" from all different denominations? The very fact that these collective believers are part of a "denomination" is in itself a direct violation of scripture; consider the words of the Apostle Paul:

1CO 12:12 The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ. 13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body--whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free--and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.

1CO 12:14 Now the body is not made up of one part but of many. 15 If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 16 And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body. 17 If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be? 18 But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be. 19 If they were all one part, where would the body be? 20 As it is, there are many parts, but one body.

As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received. 2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace4 There is one body and one Spirit-- just as you were called to one hope when you were called-- 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. Ephes 4:1-6

It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ. Ephes 4:11-13

Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to his neighbor, for we are all members of one body. Ephes 4:25

COL 3:15 Let

the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace

These are strong words by the Apostle Paul who condemned divisions in the Church and called everyone to unity in the faith. For the Church to be a collective body of believers from all different denominations is to violate the very words of the Apostle Paul in the Holy Scriptures. When Paul called the Church "The manifold wisdom of God" (Ephes 3:10) and "the pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim 3:15), he meant One body in the Unity of faith. Let us examine just a few of the words of some of the Apostles successors; take the time to read these very ancient writings Steve:

CHAP. VIII.--LET NOTHING BE DONE WITHOUT THE BISHOP.

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution(17) of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper(18) Eucharist, which is [administered] either even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.(2) St Ignatius Epistle to the Smyraeans 107 a.d

ST. ATHANASIUS

AD AFROS EPISTOLA SYNODICA

Now it would be proper to write this at greater length. But since we write to you who know, we have dictated it concisely, praying that among all the bond of peace might be preserved, and that all in the Catholic Church should say and hold the same thing.... we thanked [Damasus] for his piety and that of those who assembled at the Great Rome, ...'And we believe in the Holy Ghost,' in order that by confessing perfectly and fully the faith in the Holy Trinity they might make known the exact form of the Faith of Christ, and the teaching of the Catholic Church.

ST. AUGUSTINE

ON BAPTISM, AGAINST THE DONATISTS

(<DE BAPTISMO CONTRA DONATISTAS>)

BOOK 1 CHAPTER 3-4

...whereby I believed Thee both to exist, and Thy substance to be unchangeable, and that Thou hadst a care of and wouldest judge men; and that in Christ, Thy Son, our Lord, and the Holy Scriptures, which the authority of Thy Catholic Church pressed upon me, ...baptism exists in the Catholic Church, and that in it alone can it be rightly received,--both of which the Donatists deny. Likewise there are two other propositions which we affirm,--that baptism exists among the Donatists, but that with them it is not rightly received, of which two they strenuously confirm the former, that baptism exists with them; but they are unwilling to allow the latter, that in their Church it cannot be rightly received. Of these four propositions, three are peculiar to us; in one we both agree. For that baptism exists in the Catholic Church, that it is rightly received there, and that it is not rightly received among the Donatists, are assertions made only by ourselves; but that baptism exists also among the Donatists, is asserted by them and allowed by us. If any one, therefore,

is desirous of being baptized, and is already convinced that he ought to choose our Church as a medium for Christian salvation,.. St Augustine

As we can clearly see from both the scriptures, the Apostles, and the Successors of the Apostles, the Church which is the pillar and foundation of truth is the Catholic Church which Christ started and no other.

We can debate the details of how God works through these things - which would accomplish nothing. If we Trust God, we will obey what He told us to do. That is all God really requires of us as Faithful followers of Christ - To trust HIM

This is true in part Steve but it is still a strawman argument. As I said before every Christian denomination and cult is trusting Christ the best way they see the scriptures teaching them (according to their own church traditions), so the issue is not one of trusting Christ but it is an issue of authority to teach the Gospel with infallibility.

Is the RCC trusting God - as the Protestants do - with their dogmas concerning Mary, Purgatory, Works to keep us Justified, or praying to angels and the spirits of the deceased? NO - not according to the Bible.

The problem here Steve is how you understand the Gospel and what trusting Christ means is subject to your own traditional views of the scriptures which were taught to you by fallible men that have no divine authority to teach. The Dogmas of the Church are certainly part of our faith and our faith is trusting Christ. Remember Steve, I was once just like you in how I thought and believed; I lead literally hundreds of people to Christ but I will tell you Steve, Evangelicalism is not enough! Christ atoning sacrifice on the cross was a new and better covenant. A covenant is a Holy Contract between God and man. God has done his part and we need to do our part. Faith without works is dead and useless. If we have true faith we will have works and without the

works we cannot be saved (James 2:14-26). And this is what the Catholic Church teaches. A saint never dies, they go on living and being the branches attached to the Vine (St John 15:4-8), the difference is that when we pass through this earthly life we are purged and made perfect. Our prayers then become more powerful and effective. Therefore, because you ask your Christian friend to pray for you is no lack of faith or trusting God on your part. The same is true for us Catholics asking Mary who has been glorified and made perfect (Rev 12:1) to pray for us is no lack of faith or trusting in Christ, in fact it is a growth of faith. When we experience a physical death Steve we will be judged by our faith and works working together. Faith and salvation are a life long process and if we endure to the end we will then be saved! This is what the Church of the Bible teaches and that Church is the

Catholic Church.

Are most Protestant denominations trusting in God in their pure Devotion to Christ and HIS WORD? YES - Just as the Bible instructs His Church.

Is the RCC trusting God when they set their organization up as the Infallible representative of Christ on Earth? NO - for the Scriptures teach us many times that there would be false prophets and church organizations (Rev 2-3) from within the True Church (called out ones) who would attempt to pervert the Gospel.

Yes, the Bible teaches us that false prophets and teachers will arise and they have, the Protestant Reformation gave birth to thousands of them. We know what false prophets and teachers that Saint Paul and St. John were talking about, they were the Gnostics. There is not one shred of antiquated ecclesiastical writings in the first 15 centuries of the Church that cried out against the false teachings of the Catholic Church accept for heresies that even Protestants reject. I challenge you Steve to find me a succession of writings from the 2nd to the 14th century that is either crying out against the false teachings of the Catholic Church or ancient Fundamentalist Evangelicals writings. You will find they are virtually non existent! Therefore, it is not the Catholic Church which represents the false teachers but it is those Church's who are the offspring of the Reformation. This is what the Bible prophesies about the Reformation and her offspring:

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine (The infallible teachings of the Catholic Church). Instead, to suit their own desires, (via Sola Scriptura) they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear (Protestantism). 4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths (Protestant Denominations) . 2 Tim 4:3

The Church did not set itself up as infallible, Jesus did! (Matthew 16:16-19)

You mentioned in your Message that my view of the True Church being the "Called Out Ones" who follow Christ is evangelical and not the "Biblical" one that the RCC holds to. Yet your definition of the "Called Out Ones" is the same as mine. So, what is your point?

Reread the argument because you did not comprehend it. My point is that in the first century those who were "called out" formed the Catholic Church. There were no other church's for 1500 years and the very concept of being "called out" into a collective body of various denominations is not only unbiblical but sinful.

The Church gave us the Bible and not visa versa. The Church is infallible when teaching on faith and morals and that is why the Church had the authority to tell us what writings are truly inspired and belong in a collective canon called "The Bible."

God gave us HIS WORD. Within the Church organization there are godly followers of Christ (1 Peter 1:1) along with those who would pervert the Gospel and Word of God - as Christ and the Apostles warned us would happen! The Wheat and Tares must grow together until the end.

This is not even a response to my argument. God gave us His Word to be delivered by the Church which gave us the Bible (Ephesians 3:10)! Steve, what you believe and belong to is 20th century theology and not apostolic. Even the Protestant Reformers would call "born again" Christianity heretical. The Wheat grows before the tears!

There are true and false church organizations in this world with the Elect of Christ (called out ones, 1 Peter 1:1 ) scattered among them (See Rev 2-3). The Elect are the True Church - according to Scripture.

The only Church that existed for 1500 years before the Reformation was the Catholic Church. The Wheat grows before the tears!

God, who is in control, chose Godly followers of Christ to gather together the Divine Revelation of the Apostles and Epistle Writers and form the New Testament Canon. Thank God for His Power and Faithfulness in leaving us His Word and for choosing Godly men to preserve His Word.

Jesus did not even mention or command a New Testament Bible to be written. The Scriptures do not say "Upon this rock I will build my Bible, it say's upon this Rock I will build my Church! The Bible does not say the manifold wisdom of God is the Bible, The Bible say's the manifold wisdom of God is the Church!. The Bible does not say the pillar and foundation of truth is the Bible. The Bible say's the pillar and foundation of truth is the Church! Jesus said the gates of hell would never prevail against the Church. If we have to accept that born again Christianity is the "

true Church" then we have to believe that Jesus and the scriptures erred when He said, "the gates of hell would not prevail against the Church! We would have to believe that immediately after the last Apostle died the Church went into apostasy and at the Reformation the Church slowly began to evolve back into the true church until the early 20th century it finally transformed back into the "true church." This is preposterous, the gates of Hell never prevailed against the Church and the Protestant Reformation was a rebellion that gave birth to an endless cycle of heresies and a Tower of Babel church.

The Gospel of Christ does not refer to the Bible. The Bible contains the Gospel which the Catholic Church proclaimed!

Engage RE: How I wish that were true. In reality, the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) is a "church organization Rev 2-3" not proclaiming the same Gospel -that the Bible contains (AS YOU STATED ABOVE) - rather, they are fulfilling prophecy as follows:

Acts 20:29-31 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the Truth in order to draw away the disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears.

Steve, I have already demonstrated at the beginning of this segment of our debate that the early Church Fathers were all Catholic as were the Apostles. The wheat grows before the tears, therefore, those biblical prophesies regarding false teachers MUST apply to the offspring of the Protestant Reformers. This means that today's Evangelical/Fundemtalist Christianity is not Apostolic Christianity but indeed it is a hodgepodge of ancient Heresies. The only thing that will save you is your baptism in Christ which joins you to the Catholic Church. Let us further examine the ancient writings of the Fathers of the Church who are indeed the successors of the Apostles:

Munnulus(6) of Girba(7) said: The truth of our Mother6(8) the Catholic Church, brethren, hath always remained and still remains with us, and even especially in the Trinity of baptism, as our Lord says, "Go ye and baptize the nations, in the name of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit."(9) Since, then, we manifestly know that heretics have not either Father, or Son, or Holy Spirit, they ought, when they come to the Church our Mother, truly to be born again and to be baptized; that the cancer which they had, and the anger of damnation, and the witchery of error, may be sanctified by the holy and heavenly layer. Secundinus of Cedias(10) said: Since our Lord Christ says, "He who is not with me is against me;"(11) and John the apostle calls those who depart from the Church Antichrists--undoubtedly enemies of Christ--any such as are called Antichrists cannot minister the grace of saving baptism. And therefore I think that those who flee from the snares of the heretics to the Church must be baptized by us, who are called friends of God, of His condescension.

Felix of Bagai(12) said: As, when the blind leads the blind, they fall together into the ditch; so, when the heretic baptizes a heretic, they fall together into death. And therefore a heretic must be baptized and made alive, lest we who are alive should hold communion with the dead.

Polianus of Mileum(13) said: It is right that a heretic be baptized in the holy Church.

Theogenes of Hippo Regius(14) said: According to the sacrament of God's heavenly grace which we have received, we believe one baptism which is in the holy Church.

Dativus of Badis(15) said: We, as far as in us lies, do not hold communion with heretics, unless they have been baptized in the Church, and have received remission of their sins.

Successus of Abbir Germaniciana(16) said: Heretics can either do nothing, or they can do all. If they can baptize, they can also bestow the Holy Spirit. But if they cannot give the Holy Spirit, because they have not the Holy Spirit, neither can they spiritually baptize. Therefore we judge that heretics must be baptized.

Fortunatus of Tuccaboris(17) said: Jesus Christ our Lord and God, Son of God the Father and Creator, built His Church upon a rock,(18) not upon heresy; and gave the power of baptizing to bishops, not to heretics. Wherefore they who are without the Church, and, standing in opposition to Christ, disperse His sheep and flock, cannot baptize, being without.

Sedatus of Tuburbo(19) said: In the degree in which water sanctified in the Church by the prayer of the priest, washes away sins; in that degree, if infected with heretical discourse as with a cancer, it heaps up sins. Wherefore we must endeavour with all peaceful powers, that no one infected and stained with heretical error refuse to receive the single and true baptism of the Church, by which whosoever is not baptized, shall become an alien from the

kingdom of heaven.

Privatianus of Sufetula(1) said: Let him who says that heretics have the power of baptizing, say first who rounded heresy. For if heresy is of God, it also may have the divine indulgence. But if it is not from God, how can it either have the grace of God, or confer it upon any one?

Privatus of Sufes(2) said: He who approves the baptism of heretics, what else does he do than communicate with heretics?

Hortensianus of Lares(3) said: Let either these presumptuous ones,(4) or those who favour heretics, consider how many baptisms there are. We claim for the Church one baptism, which we know not except in the Church. Or how can they baptize any one in the name of Christ, whom Christ Himself declares to be His adversaries?

Cassius of Macomadae(5) said: Since there cannot be two baptisms, he who yields baptism to the heretics takes it away from himself. I judge therefore that heretics, lamentable and corrupt, must be baptized when they begin to come to the Church; and that when washed by the sacred and divine washing, and illuminated by the light of life, they may be received into the Church, not as enemies, but as made peaceful; not as foreigners, but as of the household of the faith of the Lord; not as children of adultery, but as sons of God; not of error, but of salvation; except those who once faithful have been supplanted, and have passed over from the Church to the darkness of heresy, but that these must be restored by the imposition of hands.

2. For if the lineal succession of bishops is to be taken into account, with how much more certainty and benefit to the Church do we reckon back till we reach Peter himself, to whom, as bearing in a figure the whole Church,(5) the Lord said: "Upon this rock will I build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it !"(6) The successor of Peter was Linus, and his successors in unbroken continuity were these: -- Clement, Anacletus, Evaristus, Alexander, Sixtus, Telesphorus, Iginus, Anicetus, Pius, Soter, Eleutherius, Victor, Zephirinus, Calixtus, Urbanus, Pontianus, Antherus, Fabianus, Cornelius, Lucius, Stephanus, Xystus, Dionysius, Felix, Eutychianus, Gaius, Marcellinus, Marcellus, Eusebius, Miltiades, Sylvester, Marcus, Julius, Liberius, Damasus, and Siricius, whose successor is the present Bishop Anastasius. In this order of succession no Donatist bishop is found.

The above testimonial writings of the Fathers is devastating to you case Steve, It clearly demonstrates and proves that the Catholic Church traces it's roots right back to the Apostles and that it was Jesus who started the Church upon Peter the Rock. It shows that being born again is not only believing in Christ but being baptized into the Catholic Church which is the body of Christ. I submit to you Steve with the evidence at hand that you abandon the heresy which you embrace and come Home to the Church Christ gave us to worship Him and receive him in Spirit and in truth and to receive the Sacraments only His Church can provide which is necessary for our salvation and spiritual growth in Christ. Evangelicalism is not enough! To Him be Glory in the

Church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.

Subject: Re: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

Date: 3/24/2002 3:24 PM Central Standard Time

Message-id: <20020324162431.06376.00000713@mb-cu.aol.com>

Since you have repeated copied and posted your same message twice once here, and a little further down, I responded by listing my posts by your last post.

Sincerely,

Steven

Subject: Re: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

Date: 3/24/2002 1:08 AM Central Standard Time

Message-id: <20020324020840.12960.00000524@mb-fo.aol.com>

Thank you once again for your reply.

Whenever we discuss the Church, I always have attempted to define it by what the Word of God states about that Church.

I also have upheld the Word of God as the Foundation and Manifold Wisdom of the Church as Scripture states:

Ephesians 3:8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, 9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the Church, the manifold Wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to His Eternal Purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Over SIX TIMES now you keep repeating that the RCC is the Manifold Wisdom of God - as if repeating it many times that somehow this makes it true. This is irritating, because you disregard the WORD OF GOD for the sake of RCC tradition.

1) Paul was making this hidden mystery plain to everyone - by Divine Revelation from Jesus Christ. Plain enough for the simple people of the world to understand, (1Cor1:26; Lk10:21).

2) The Word of God clearly indicates that the Church is NOT the manifold Wisdom of God. Rather, through the Church, the Manifold Wisdom of God should be made known.

Therefore the Church is now the Receptacle of that Manifold Wisdom which God gave us through the FOUNDATION - Prophets, Apostles - and Christ Jesus himself being the Chief Cornerstone:

Ephesians 2:18 For through Him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. 19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizen with God's people and members of God's household, 20 built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the Chief Cornerstone. 21 In Him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.

And this Mystery and Manifold Wisdom by which we Trust has once for all been entrusted to the Saints:

Jude 3 . . . I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the Faith that was once for all entrusted to the Saints. 4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. Niv

No room here is given for new revelation and more foundation than that which was already laid. All we need for salvation was given to us in writing:

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. kjv

In contrast you, Dave, have been quick to point out that the manifold Wisdom of God is NOT the Word of God - but rather, the RCC. Therefore we must accept what they tell us. This is circular reasoning based on a faulty understanding of Holy Scripture. I quote you from your latest message to me:

[Jesus did not even mention or command a New Testament Bible to be written. The Scriptures do not say "Upon this rock I will build my Bible, it say's upon this Rock I will build my Church! The Bible does not say the manifold wisdom of God is the Bible, The Bible say's the manifold wisdom of God is The Church!. The Bible does not say the pillar and foundation of truth is the Bible. The Bible say's the pillar and foundation of truth is the Church! Jesus said the gates of hell would never prevail against the Church.]

In saying this, you seem to be distancing yourself from the Word of God as the Foundation and Manifold Wisdom of the Church - through which we are saved. Yet, it was this HOLY WORD that God Entrusted to the Saints by Divine Revelation through the FOUNDATION:

Jude 3 . . . I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the Faith that was once for all entrusted to the Saints.

1 Peter 1:23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring Word of God. 24 For, "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the Word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the Word we preached to you. niv

The Word of God is Living and Active.

Sharper than any double-edged sword,

it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joint and marrow;

it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight. Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account. Niv

Revelation 20:12 "...And the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. "

The Foundation of the Gospel of the Biblical Church of God is Christ - as revealed to us by THE FOUNDATION. As it is Written:

Ephesians 2:20 built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the Chief Cornerstone. 21 In Him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.

Ephesians 3:4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ, 5 which was not made known to men in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit of God's holy Apostles and Prophets. 6 This mystery is that through the Gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, member together in the promise in Christ Jesus.

That Foundation is LIFE and WISDOM of the Church. For the Word of God is Living, Active, and is quite plain for anyone to understand who truly seeks God:

1 Corinthians 2:12 We have not received the spirit of this world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what He has freely given us.

If someone tells me that I cannot, by the Holy Spirit, understand what God has freely given me by studying the Scriptures - as the Bereans did, Timothy did, and others - than that person is contradicting the clear teaching of Scripture.

Lord Jesus and the Apostles, quoted Scripture as their authority. How can a Christian today to anything less than Christ and the Super Apostles? Tradition cannot be relied upon - as history shows again and again.

Any organization that claims to be the Church of Christ must be Founded in the Word of God - which is Direct Revelation from God through the FOUNDATION and is the Manifold Wisdom of the Church. This Manifold Wisdom was already revealed and MADE PLAIN to us and written down for us, by the FOUNDATION -

now revealed and made known through the Prophetic Writings

Galatians 1:8 "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!"

Jude 3 . . . I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the Faith that was once for all entrusted to the Saints. 4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. niv

IF the Faith was once for all entrusted to the Saints by the Foundation - and was made plain to understand by Direct Revelation from Paul - THEN why is the RCC adding more revelation and foundation onto the Gospel by which we are saved?

The Church is Founded on Christ who gave us HIS WORD. And that WRITTEN WORD will Judge us. The RCC is NOT founded in the WORD, but rather Tradition:

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is One God and One Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus..

Hebrews 7:23 Now there have been many of those priests, since death prevented them from continuing in office; 24 but because Jesus lives forever, he has a permanent priesthood.

25 Therefore He is able to SAVE COMPLETELY

those who COME TO GOD THROUGH HIM,

because HE always lives to INTERCEDE for them.

26 Such a High Priest MEETS OUR NEED,

one who is HOLY, BLAMELESS, PURE,

Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in NO ONE ELSE, for there is NO OTHER NAME under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.

Therefore, the RCC - who claims to be the "manifold wisdom of God" (which is in direct violation of the Scriptures) - is an Apostate church.

You mentioned in your Message to me that the Protestant denominations can't be the True Church because they all disagree on baptism and Lord's Supper.

How do the Protestants disagree?

Do not ALL Protestants baptize believers in Christ, as Christ instructs us to do in His Word?

Do not ALL the Protestant Denominations celebrate the Lords Supper as Christ commanded us?

All questions are affirmative.

Dear Steve: your above argument is a strawman: all Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, and United Pentecostals celebrate the Lord's Supper and practice baptism too but does this make them the Pillar and foundation of truth?

Engage RE: Your argument is the stawman Dave. To start off, the Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons do not teach the same Gospel as in the Bible. Therefore, I would say the RCC is in good company - for the RCC does not teach the same Gospel of the Bible either.

<<

Every Christian denomination and cult practices the things they see and believe as being scriptural but obviously this is no guarantee of doctrinal truth and it is doctrinal truth which is the heart of our debate.

Engage RE: All the Doctrinal Truth we need is plainly expressed - by the infinite wisdom of God - through the Prophets, Apostles, and Christ Jesus himself - once for all entrusted to the saints. That is what the Word of God states. Who am I to disagree?? Anyone who teaches contrary to this plainly revealed truth is Apostate.

Every main line Protestant denomination such as Presbyterian, Lutheran, Episcopal, Methodist, Congregationalist, and those denominations that resulted from the first two centuries after the Reformation believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and Infant Baptism. These Protestant denominations see the Eucharist and baptism as being absolutely necessary for salvation. Baptism is correctly seen by these denominations as an infusion of grace and that is why infants have always been baptized from the first century to the Protestant Reformation and until today. However, evangelicals do not see it that way. They see Salvation as accepting Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

I have no idea what you mean by evangelical. I use to be a Lutheran (Wisconsin Synod). They called themselves "evangelical". From reading your post, you appear to define "evangelical" as "Calvinist".

As long as they follow God's command and instruction to carry out the Lord's Supper in remembrance of Him until He comes again, then that is all that is necessary.

As long as Baptism is administered - as commanded - then that is all that is necessary.

God will do His Part. And God expects us to do our part, by Faith - as He instructed us. The Word of God never said we would be damned if we did not quite understand how God works through Baptism or the Lord's Supper, or predestination, election, etc. But we will be damned if we do not remain in faithful obedience to the Gospel - which is PURE DEVOTION TO CHRIST and HIS SPIRIT OF LOVE.

But the KEY to living out the Law of the Spirit (LOVE) is FAITH. And FAITH is described by Christ in the following:

Notice, that in the above Scripture, no mention is given to earning our way to heaven - as if our works could pay for our sins before God. God want YOU - ALL

OF YOU - NOT YOUR WORKS. IF HE HAS YOU, THEN YOU WILL LIVE BY EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDETH FROM THE MOUTH OF GOD:

[This commandment is just as true today as it was in the Old Covenant. The only thing that has changed is that we no longer offer sacrifices for our sins under the ceremonial law and we are not bound by the Law. Rather, Christ is our Sacrifice and our High Priest.]

Notice in the above that, obeying laws will not solve the problems one has with the sinful nature. But dying to the Law to FOLLOW the SPIRIT OF CHRIST means we are now slaves to HIM BY FAITH - NOT FAITH IN OUR FLESH. More on this later.

Acts 2:37-39 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other Apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will Receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off - for all whom the Lord our God will call. Niv

Therefore, Faith and Repentance are inseparable - and will always produce obedience. And that is how we receive the Spirit:

Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey Him. niv

John 14:15,16 If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Counselor to be with you forever - the Spirit of Truth. niv

Galatians 3:14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus so that by Faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit. niv

Galatians 3:2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you Receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by Believing what you Heard? niv

Acts 11:17 So if God gave them the same gift (The Spirit) as he gave us, WHO BELIEVED in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God? niv

Ephesians 1:13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the Word of Truth, the Gospel of your Salvation. Having Believed, you were marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit . . niv

Galatians 5:24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. niv

Romans 8:12,13 Therefore, Brethren, we are debtors, (or, "we have an obligation"), not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For IF ye live after the flesh, ye shall Die: but IF ye through the Spirit mortify, (or, "put to death"), the deeds of the body, ye shall LIVE. kjv

Galatians 5:16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the carnal (fleshly) nature. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is Love,

joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. Niv

Romans 6:19 Just as you used to offer the parts of your body in slavery to impurity and to ever-increasing wickedness, so now offer them in slavery to righteousness leading to holiness. 20 When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. 21 What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. 23 "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is Eternal Life in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Living out the Works of righteousness by living in obedience to the Spirit and Word of Christ by Faith is never automatic. We always struggle against the sinful nature - for the flesh remains sold to sin. However, with the mind, we are slaves to righteousness through faith in Christ. His Spirit working with us as we live for HIM. Please read Romans 7 and 8.

Without Faith in Christ we would not have the will, desire or ambition to fight the good fight of Faith.

Your treasure is where your heart is - what you believe in.

Faith in Christ always produces fruit. You must remain in the Vine by Faith - which produces fruit.

John 15:3 You are already clean because of the Word I have spoken to you.

4 Remain in Me, and I will Remain in You.

No Branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can You bear fruit Unless You Remain In Me...

6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. Niv

Works in addition to faith cannot justify anyone. BUT works done - as a result of abiding in Christ by faith - show that our faith is real. The faith itself while (abiding in Christ) is what saves us.

1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from Him (Christ Jesus) and declare to you: God is Light; in Him there is not darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with Him yet walk in darkness, we lie and do not live by the Truth. 7 But if we walk in the Light, as He is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, His Son, purifies us from all sin. niv

1 John 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense - Jesus Christ, the Righteous One. 2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world...

3 We know that we have come to know Him if we obey His commands. 4 The man who says, "I know Him," but does not do what He commands is a liar, and the Truth is not in him. 5 But if anyone obeys His word, God's LOVE is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in Him: 6 Whoever claims to live in Him must walk as Jesus did. niv

Philippians 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. Kjv

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me: 28 I give unto them Eternal Life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. kjv

Subject: Re: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

Date: 3/24/2002 3:03 PM Central Standard Time

Message-id: <20020324160325.06376.00000711@mb-cu.aol.com>

They receive Christ by a one time "sinners prayer" and if they really meant it at the time they are forever saved!

Engage RE: I am not a Calvinist. I will not attempt to argue with the Calvinistic Tulip at this time. However, as long as a professing Christian (Calvinist or otherwise) continues in the Faith of the Biblical Gospel - then they are saved.

And, if that professing Christian dies a faithful follower of Christ then, they will inherit Eternal Life. That is what Holy Scripture teaches.

So I ask you again Steve, with such division in the Protestant Church on Christian doctrine how can the Church be a "collective body of believers" from all different denominations? The very fact that these collective believers are part of a "denomination" is in itself a direct violation of scripture; consider the words of the Apostle Paul: [...]

Engage RE: All the Scriptures you gave to "prove" this assertion have to do with unity in Spirit and Faith. Since the Word of God is the Sword of the Spirit - and from which we are "born again" - I would say that any unity of Spirit hinges on our faithfulness to the plain

instruction of the Word of God.

Since the RCC does not teach the same Gospel as the Word of God, then they are Apostate.

All truly Protestant denominations are in complete unity as to the Saving Gospel as revealed in God's Word. They only have disagreement as to how God works through this "instruction".

But God does not judge us on how well we understand or know how He miraculously works. Rather, God judges us on our Faithful Obedience to His Gospel by which God works out His miraculous saving power.

I say again, faithful obedience to the Gospel is what is required for salvation.

And the Gospel is not burdensome or difficult to understand. Rather, God has chosen the simpletons to be saved through the Gospel. In contrast, God condemns those who add their own human wisdom onto the Pure Gospel of Christ:

1 Corinthians 1:26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. niv

Luke 10:21 Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the Learned and Wise, and Revealed them to Little Children." niv

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the Power of God. 19 For it is Written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar?...

When Paul called the Church "The manifold wisdom of God" (Ephes 3:10) and "the pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Tim 3:15), he meant One body in the Unity of faith. Let us examine just a few of the words of some of the Apostles successors; take the time to read these very ancient writings Steve:

Engage RE: Paul never said that the Church is "The manifold wisdom of God" (Ephesians 3:10)".

And you have consistently misunderstood the Biblical understanding as to WHY the Church is the pillar and foundation of the Truth, 1Timothy3:15.

What is the Truth? - the Gospel of Christ, SEE: verse 16. Every Christian in the Body is a living stone and witness of the saving work of the Gospel in their lives.

So the Church, by necessity, has to be the pillar and foundation of the Gospel (the Truth), because the Church would not be the Pillar - or even be saved - without being living stones of that Truth. The Living Stones are the Christians and, BY NECESSITY, testify and cry out this Truth - or they would not be Living Stones. And those LIVING STONES are built upon Christ - and NO OTHER:

1 Peter 2:4 As you come to HIM, the Living Stone - rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to HIM - 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a Holy Priesthood, offering Spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

"Church" means: "called out ones". In other words, The Body of Believers make up the "Church" - God's household. This is not evangelical - it is The Gospel Truth.

All True Christians are "the Church" because they understand and have come to believe this Truth - the Gospel of Salvation/The New Covenant in Christ - we follow Christ our Shepherd.

These True Christians listen to Christ as their Shepherd, and they follow HIM. They do not add onto the Gospel, or pray to the deceased or angels, or go to Mary and pray to her for their need and their salvation - because Christ told them to come to HIM and to pray to God in Heaven through His Name.

Therefore, the "Church" is the Pillar and foundation of this "Truth" - The Gospel, for how could they be anything else and still be "Christian"?

The RCC does not teach the same Gospel as the Foundation plainly instructed us simpletons. Rather, the RCC has added onto the Gospel, and changed it. They have usurped the Glory of Christ in the Gospel with that of Mary and the RCC.

We can debate the details of how God works through these things - which would accomplish nothing. If we Trust God, we will obey what He told us to do. That is all God really requires of us as Faithful followers of Christ - To trust HIM

This is true in part Steve but it is still a strawman argument. As I said before every Christian denomination and cult is trusting Christ the best way they see the scriptures teaching them (according to their own church traditions), so the issue is not one of trusting Christ but it is an issue of authority to teach the Gospel with infallibility.

Engage RE: The Gospel is simple to understand, and was plainly revealed by Paul and the other Epistle Writers within the Bible. In fact each Epistle practically repeats the same instruction over and over again so we would not forget. Have you ever noticed this?

The Church of the Bible is the receptacle of this Divine Revelation - the Gospel of Salvation. And this is the Gospel that all the Protestant denominations are unified in proclaiming and preaching. Just as the Apostles spoke to the Church denominations in the Bible, so too they continue to speak to us through the plenary revelation entrusted to us within the Bible - By which we are saved.

The RCC is NOT the Church of the Bible, for they have changed the Gospel and teach contrary to it.

• There was no Biblical Instruction regarding succession of Popes.
• There was no Biblical Instruction telling us the RCC is the Manifold Wisdom of God.
• There was no Biblical Instruction telling us to follow the RCC.
• There is no Biblical Instruction telling us the Church is Infallible

All that Divine Scripture really tells us to do is to Believe in Christ and Follow HIM.

The responsibility of Church leadership is to direct us to Christ - as the Gospel teaches.

The RCC is rather directing us to the RCC, to Mary, and to the Spirits of the deceased to pray to and rely on for all our needs and for our salvation.

Christ told us to COME TO HIM and PRAY TO THE FATHER IN HIS NAME.

Is the RCC trusting God - as the Protestants do - with their dogmas concerning Mary, Purgatory, Works to keep us Justified, or praying to angels and the spirits of the deceased? NO - not according to the Bible.

The problem here Steve is how you understand the Gospel and what trusting Christ means is subject to your own traditional views of the scriptures which were taught to you by fallible men that have no divine authority to teach.

Engage RE: The Gospel is plainly revealed in Scripture so that a simple person could understand it and believe. I quoted these Scriptures in the very beginning of this message and continued to do so throughout so that you would not forget.

I was not taught the Word of God by any man or organization. I tell you the truth: when I gave Christ Jesus my life, I studied the Scriptures for myself to see what they say. And, by His Spirit, God taught me His Word:

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets: "They will all be taught by God." Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from Him comes to me. niv

And, as Christians, we will listen to and follow Christ our Lord and Savior (our Example of LOVE by which we imitate and live by) with sincere Faith. The Spirit of God (who indwells us) helps us, and confirms to us, that we are God's Children as we follow Christ.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me: 28 I give unto them Eternal Life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. kjv

Galatians 3:26 For you are all children of God by Faith in Christ Jesus, 27 for as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. kjv

Galatians 4:6 And because you are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, "Abba, Father." kjv

And by This Spirit that we Receive from God, He has freely given us understanding of His Word:

1 Corinthians 2:12 We have not received the spirit of this world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what He has freely given us.

If someone tells me that I cannot, by the Holy Spirit, understand what God has freely given me by studying the Scriptures - as the Bereans did, Timothy did, and others - than that person is contradicting the clear teaching of Scripture.

If that were the case, then why did the Epistle Writers write those Epistles to be read in the Churches?

The Dogmas of the Church are certainly part of our faith and our faith is trusting Christ. Remember Steve, I was once just like you in how I thought and believed; I lead literally hundreds of people to Christ but I will tell you Steve, Evangelicalism is not enough!

Engage RE: What you are actually saying is, "The Word of God (Direct Revelation from the infinite wisdom of God) is not enough.

Christ atoning sacrifice on the cross was a new and better covenant. A covenant is a Holy Contract between God and man. God has done his part and we need to do our part. Faith without works is dead and useless. If we have true faith we will have works and without the works we cannot be saved (James 2:14-26). And this is what the Catholic Church teaches.

Engage RE: I agree with what you stated. However this is where the RCC has failed as well. They teach that faith is not enough to be saved. We must do works to keep us justified abefore God. But this is totally contradicting the clear instruction of God's Word.

It is not the works that Justify us. Rather, Faith in Christ - which is demonstrated by obedience Romans 1:5; Acts 26:20; Galatians 5:6, etc - is what saves us, as the Scriptures teach.

Works in themselves, in addition to faith, does not justify us before God. One such plain Scripture is as follows:

Romans 4: 1-5 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about - but not before God. 3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham Believed God, and it was accredited to him as righteousness." 4 Now when a man [Works], his wages are NOT credited to him as a Gift; but as an Obligation. However; to the man who DOES NOT WORK but TRUSTS God who justifies the wicked, his FAITH is credited as righteousness. niv

But, as the Book of James instructs us: A faith that is empty of works shows that our faith is not the kind that saves. And that is what James 2:14-26 is teaching. It is really quite simple if you just accept what the Scriptures plainly state in context.

James 2:14 Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. niv

James is establishing that a faith empty of fruit shows that the professed faith is empty/dead.

James 2:14 What good is it Brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such a faith save him? niv

Subject: Re: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

Date: 3/24/2002 3:21 PM Central Standard Time

Message-id: <20020324162149.06376.00000712@mb-cu.aol.com>

Continued, Last Part . . .

A saint never dies, they go on living and being the branches attached to the Vine (St John 15:4-8), the difference is that when we pass through this earthly life we are purged and made perfect. Our prayers then become more powerful and effective. Therefore, because you ask your Christian friend to pray for you is no lack of faith or trusting God on your part.

Engage RE: Whatever the spirits of the deceased saints do in heaven is God's business - unless He reveals it to us in His Word. The resurrection has not happened yet.

Firstly, the Bible clearly instructs us to help each other on earth and to pray for each other here on earth.

Secondly, just as clear is the Biblical Instruction that there is only one Mediator in Heaven - who is also are Intercessor before God who meets our need.

Thirdly, God clearly instructs us - in many Passages - that we are to pray to the Father in heaven through the name of our One Mediator in Heaven, Christ Jesus.

Fourthly, all the Faithful in the entire Bible clearly followed this Divine Instruction from God - For they only prayed to God in heaven for all their needs, and for their salvation. Likewise, all the Faithful help each other, and pray for one another on earth - just as God instructed us to do.

Lastly, if anyone should claim to speak for God and instruct us to pray to anyone in heaven but God, then that person or organization is a deceiver/counterfeit and must not be trusted.

same is true for us Catholics asking Mary who has been glorified and made perfect (Rev 12:1) to pray for us is no lack of faith or trusting in Christ, in fact it is a growth of faith.

Engage RE:

There is no "growth in faith" when we disobey the clear instruction of God's Word.

There is no "growth in faith" when we pray to, or devote ourselves to, anyone in Heaven but Christ - the Husband of the Bride in whom we are to give our pure devotion to, and look to as our One Mediator before God who meets our need.

Revelation 12 has nothing to do with Mary - unless you think she is still alive on earth and awaiting the Tribulation period Rev12:6,14. Remember her son was already taken up into heaven way back in verse 5. Israel can only fit the context.

When we experience a physical death Steve we will be judged by our faith and works working together. Faith and salvation are a life long process and if we endure to the end we will then be saved! This is what the Church of the Bible teaches and that Church is the Catholic Church.

Engage RE: We do works of righteousness by Faith in the Son of God. We do not do works to keep us justified. Rather we continue in Faithful obedience to Christ our ONE MEDIATOR in Heaven.

By Our Faith IN HIM we remain justified before God through Christ - ONLY BY FAITH. I have shown you Scriptures concerning this. But I know you will reject Sola Scriptura ( by which the True Church is saved ).

Are most Protestant denominations trusting in God in their pure Devotion to Christ and HIS WORD? YES - Just as the Bible instructs His Church.

Is the RCC trusting God when they set their organization up as the Infallible representative of Christ on Earth? NO - for the Scriptures teach us many times that there would be false prophets and church organizations (Rev 2-3) from within the True Church (called out ones) who would attempt to pervert the Gospel.

Yes, the Bible teaches us that false prophets and teachers will arise and they have, the Protestant Reformation gave birth to thousands of them. We know what false prophets and teachers that Saint Paul and St. John were talking about, they were the Gnostics. There is not one shred of antiquated ecclesiastical writings in the first 15 centuries of the Church that cried out against the false teachings of the Catholic Church accept for heresies that even Protestants reject. I challenge you Steve to find me a succession of writings from the 2nd to the 14th century that is either crying out against the false teachings of the Catholic Church or ancient Fundamentalist Evangelicals writings. You will find they are virtually non existent! Therefore, it is not the Catholic Church which represents the false teachers but it is those Church's who are the offspring of the Reformation. This is what the Bible prophesies about the Reformation and her offspring:

Engage RE: False prophets are those who teach contrary to the Gospel of Sola Scriptura by which we are saved. Protestants are unified in the Gospel which saves us – as revealed by Sola Scriptura.

The RCC teaches blasphemies against the Gospel - especially through their teachings about Mary which usurp the unique position of Christ - who is the Truth of the Gospel Message.

All the protestant denominations and the Jews cry out against the RCC throughout history.

I do not have to provide you any historical documentation of those who cried out against the RCC. Your Pope publicly admitted and apologized for the persecution, torture and slaughter of God's faithful martyrs throughout its history.

Therefore Heaven and Earth cry out against the RCC who is drunk with the blood of the saints and who fornicates herself with every religion and nation of the earth... How does she do this? -

~~~~~~~~~~~~

CC 841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."[330]

Salvation in Christ Is Offered to All 10. The universality of salvation means that it is granted not only to those who explicitly believe in Christ and have entered the Church.

Since salvation is offered to all, it must be made concretely available to all. But it is clear that today, as in the past, many people do not have an opportunity to come to know or accept the gospel revelation or to enter the Church. The social and cultural conditions in which they live do not permit this, and frequently they have been brought up in other religious traditions. For such people salvation in Christ is accessible by virtue of a grace which, while having a mysterious relationship to the Church, does not make them formally part of the Church but enlightens them in a way which is accommodated to their spiritual and material situation. This grace comes from Christ; it is the result of his Sacrifice and is communicated by the Holy Spirit. It enables each person to attain salvation through his or her free cooperation.

For this reason the Council, after affirming the centrality of the Paschal Mystery, went on to declare that "this applies not only to Christians but to all people of good will in whose hearts grace is secretly at work. Since Christ died for everyone, and since the ultimate calling of each of us

comes from God and is therefore a universal one, we are obliged to hold that the Holy Spirit offers everyone the possibility of sharing in this Paschal Mystery in a manner known to God."(19)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The RCC, for some years now, has been actively gathering support for a one-world religion - made up of all religions under one banner. The RCC is attempting to make close bonds with all other religions under heaven who believe in a god - even though they reject Christ and the God of the Bible - as do the Muslims.

However, the True Christian will be founded in Christ as taught by the FOUNDATION and was once for all entrusted to the true saints of God.

Engage RE:

WOW! To put the RCC above Sola Scriptura (plenary revelation from God) is total blasphemy!!!

Only the Holy Scriptures are the Divine Instruction of the FOUNDATION to the Church of Christ. Sola Scriptura may be a bunch of myths to you - but I assure you that you will be judged by every word of Scripture. Your Catholic dogmas and traditions will not be able to save you.

Rev. 20:12 "...And the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds

2Tim3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

John 12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.

The Church did not set itself up as infallible, Jesus did! (Matthew 16:16-19)

1 Peter 1:23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring Word of God. 24 For, "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the Word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the Word we preached to you. niv

There are true and false church organizations in this world with the Elect of Christ (called out ones, 1 Peter 1:1 ) scattered among them (See Rev 2-3). The Elect are the True Church - according to Scripture.

The only Church that existed for 1500 years before the Reformation was the Catholic Church. The Wheat grows before the tears!

Engage RE:

The Church of Christ began with Christ the Apostles. And the Church continues and grows to this day Founded on the teaching of Christ through the Apostles.

The RCC claims to be the True Church, but teaches a different Gospel than what the FOUNDATION taught. Therefore, although the RCC claims to be ancient, she rejects Sola Scriptura - the FOUNDATION and Manifold Wisdom of the Church.

The RCC has set herself up as the Manifold Wisdom of God - in place of God's Word - and added her man-made traditions. She sets herself up as the Messiah, and then blasphemes the Holy Gospel which God entrusted to us through the Apostles.

Therefore, the RCC is a fulfillment of Divine Revelation from Sola Scriptura - A false messiah.

God, who is in control, chose Godly followers of Christ to gather together the Divine Revelation of the Apostles and Epistle Writers and form the New Testament Canon. Thank God for His Power and Faithfulness in leaving us His Word and for choosing Godly men to preserve His Word.

Jesus did not even mention or command a New Testament Bible to be written. The Scriptures do not say "Upon this rock I will build my Bible, it say's upon this Rock I will build my Church! The Bible does not say the manifold wisdom of God is the Bible, The Bible say's the manifold wisdom of God is the Church!.

Engage RE: Once again you falsely misrepresent God's Holy Word - calling the RCC the manifold wisdom of God. As if God could not function without the RCC doing His thinking for Him.

You still have no idea who the Rock is do you? What did Peter say?

Christ Jesus the LORD!!!!!

JESUS CHRIST

our only LORD, SAVIOR MEDIATOR, REDEEMER.

THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE!

Sincerely,

Steven

Subject: Re: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

Date: 3/25/2002 12:04 AM Central Standard Time

Message-id: <20020325010411.19677.00001973@mb-fu.aol.com>

Thank you once again for your reply. 

Whenever we discuss the Church, I always have attempted to define it by what the Word of God states about that Church. 

And so have I, in fact I have given the better scriptural argument!

I also have upheld the Word of God as the Foundation and Manifold Wisdom of the Church as Scripture states:

Ephesians 3:8  Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,  9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.  10 His intent was that now, through the Church, the manifold Wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms,  11 according to His Eternal Purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1) Paul was making this hidden mystery plain to everyone - by Divine Revelation from Jesus Christ.  Plain enough for the simple people of the world to understand, (1Cor1:26; Lk10:21).

2) The Word of God clearly indicates that the Church is NOT the manifold Wisdom of God.  Rather, through the Church, the Manifold Wisdom of God should be made known.

Steve, this is a play on words, the text say's that THROUGH THE CHURCH THE MANIFOLD WISDOM OF GOD IS MADE KNOWN...

This very obviously and simply means that God reveals His divine Word through the Church as the totality of God's infallible Word. Notice how the text does not say "Through the Bible the manifold wisdom of God is made known..." It say's THROUGH THE CHURCH!!!! It does not get no clearer then that Steve. The Bible as it's own authority can never work because it is subject to the interprations of fallible men. Every heresy in the history Christianity and the Church used the Bible to assert it's "truth." Every Christian cult of today uses the Bible to assert it's "truth" so as I have said several times already, because one studies and reads the Bible is no gaurantee of arriving at doctrinal truth and that is why Jesus gave us a Church (Matthew 16:16-19) to be the manifold wisdom of God (Ephes 3:10) and the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15).

No room here is given for new revelation and more foundation than that which was already laid.  All we need for salvation was given to us in writing:

The Apostle Paul writes:

So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions (Greek=paradosis) we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. 2 Thess 2:15

This means that the Word of God is revealed to us in both oral and written form. There is no new revelation regarding salvation but there is a deepened revelation of a doctrine that has already been taught. It may be true that all we need for our salvation is given to us in writing but there are a few problems with the Evangelical understanding of this. First of all, it assumes that each individual can correctly interpret the scriptures themselves to achieve salvation. We know this cannot be true because no Protestant denomination or non denomination agrees on what the scriptures teach exactly alike. Secondly, it assumes that an intellectual and theological understanding of the scriptures is enough for salvation and Jesus himself said this is not

true:

You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. St John 5:39

What we need is a living entity commissioned by God to teach us the scriptures with infallibility so we can know for sure we are correctly following God's Holy Word which is revealed to us in a triune way: 1)the Holy Scriptures (all 73 books), 2)Sacred Traditon, 3) and the Magesterium of the Church. In addition we need the Sacraments of the Church which are necessary for us to be saved such as Baptism (St.John 3:3-7; St.Mark 16:16; Acts 2:37-39; 22:16; 1Peter 3:21), the Eucharist ( St John 6:35-58), and the Sacrament of Reconciliation [(Confession) St John 20:22]

2 Timothy 3:16  All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:  17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.  kjv

All scripture (73 books) are given by inspiration but it does not say ONLY scripture is given by inspiration. I have already addressed this.

In contrast you, Dave, have been quick to point out that the manifold Wisdom of God is NOT the Word of God - but rather, the RCC.  Therefore we must accept what they tell us.  This is circular reasoning based on a faulty understanding of Holy Scripture.  I quote you from your latest message to me:

In saying this, you seem to be distancing yourself from the Word of God as the Foundation and Manifold Wisdom of the Church - through which we are saved.  Yet, it was this HOLY WORD that God Entrusted to the Saints by Divine Revelation through the FOUNDATION:

Steve it is YOU who are denying the scriptures. You are arguing from the presupposition that "The Word of God" means "the Bible." You are wrong! The Word of God is Jesus (John 1:1) and divine revelation is revealed with infallibility through the Church which gave us the Bible and teaches to us the Bible and the totality of Divine Revelation with infallibility. That is why Jesus gave us a Church (Matt 16:16-19) and this is why the Church is the manifold wisdom of God (Ephes 3:10) and the pillar and foundation of truth (1 Tim 3:15) and that is why the Catholic Church has never died (Matt 16:18) and stands strong 2000 years after Jesus founded it.

Jude 3  . . . I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the Faith that was once for all entrusted to the Saints.

And it is only by the WORD OF GOD that we can ever hope to be SAVED:

Let me ask you this Steve: is everyone who uses the Bible as their final authority going to be saved? Will Jehovah Witnesses be saved? Will Mormons be saved? Will United Pentacostals be saved? Were the People of Jones Town, Guiana who were lead by an Assembly of God Evangelist"Jim Jones" saved when they committed mass suicide? All these people used the "Bible Alone" as their final authority but the real truth is that unless you don't go to Church and your Church is the Bible alone apart from a body of believers you are going to follow teachers and leaders who will teach their interprations of the scriptures which is no gaurantee of doctrinal truth as the people of the "Peoples Temple" in Jones Town, Guiana tragically learned. We must have infallible teachers to teach us Divine Revelation correctly or we can be lead astray. Because we diligently study the scriptures is no gaurantee of arriving at doctrinal truth (St John 5:39).

1 Peter 1:23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring Word of God.  24  For, "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the Word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the Word we preached to you.   niv

The Word of God is Living and Active. 

Sharper than any double-edged sword,

it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joint and marrow; 

it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart. 

13 Nothing in all creation is hidden from God's sight.  Everything is uncovered and laid bare before the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.  Niv

It is by that WORD that we will be Judged.

As I said before Steve, you assume that "The Word of God" is the Bible and it is not, The Word of God is Jesus (St John 1:1) who will be our Judge (St. Matt 7:22) and he will judge us by our faith and works working together (St Matt 7:21-23; 25:31-46; St James 2:14-26; Rev 20:12) so all your citations in this argument are based on your erroneous understanding of the scriptures. As I said in my last argument, the entire issue that you are failing to grasp comes down to AUTHORITY.

Revelation 20:12  "...And the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds (WORKS). "

The Foundation of the Gospel of the Biblical Church of God is Christ - as revealed to us by THE FOUNDATION.  As it is Written:

Ephesians 2:20 built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the Chief Cornerstone.  21 In Him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.

This Holy Temple which is built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets is the Catholic Church! I noticed that you have completely ignored my citations of the Early Church Fathers who are far more qualified to teach the scriptures to us then todays "Born Again" Christian teachers and leaders let us once again examine their writings:

We believe that what was formerly decreed was brought about both by God's command and by order of your piety. For we the bishops, from all the Western cities, assembled together at Ariminum, both that the Faith of the Catholic Church might be made known, and that gainsayers might be detected. For, as we have found after long deliberation, it appeared desirable to adhere to and maintain to the end, that faith which, enduring from antiquity, we have received as preached by the prophets, the Gospels, and the Apostles through our Lord Jesus Christ, Who is Keeper of your Kingdom and Patron of your power. St Athanasius 270 a.d

27. For when the first Church was cast off, in the second, which is the Catholic Church, God hath set, as Paul says, first Apostles, secondly Prophets, thirdly teachers, then miracles, then gifts of headings, helps, governments, divers kinds of tongues(5), and every sort of virtue, I mean wisdom and understanding, temperance and justice, mercy and loving-kindness, and patience unconquerable in persecutions. She, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left, by honour and dishonour(6), in former days amid persecutions and tribulations crowned the holy martyrs with the varied and blooming chaplets of patience, and now in times of peace by God's grace receives her due honours from kings and those who are in high place(7), and from every sort and kindred of men. And while the kings of particular nations have bounds set to their authority, the Holy Church Catholic alone extends her power without limit over the whole world; for God, as it is written, hath made her border peace(8). But I should need many more hours for my discourse, if I wished to speak of all things which concern her.

28. In this Holy Catholic Church receiving instruction and behaving ourselves virtuously, we shall attain the kingdom of heaven, and inherit ETERNAL LIFE; for which also we endure all toils, that we may be made partakers thereof from the Lord.

St Cyril of Jerusalem 170 a.d.

If someone tells me that I cannot, by the Holy Spirit, understand what God has freely given me by studying the Scriptures - as the Bereans did, Timothy did, and others - than that person is contradicting the clear teaching of Scripture.

As I said before, diligently studying the scriptures is no gaurantee at arriving at doctrinal truth; this fact is self evident. The Bereans simply checked the scriptures to see if what the Apostles were teaching fit the scriptures. They could have easily rejected the Apostles interprations of the scriptures and embraced the Pharisees teachings of the scripture. It all comes down to authority Steve and Protestants do not have it.They have faith but not the auithority to teach faith with infallibility.

The RCC teaches a "different Gospel" so they are apostate:

Why because you say so? You don't even have a complete Bible but a 66 book incomplete and truncated version of the Bible. Your Church history begins in the late 19th century! Ours begins in the first century! Even the Protestant Reformers would call your views of the scriptures heretical! I have given you my testimony, the testimony of the scriptures and the Church Fathers and they all testify to the Catholic Church being the Church Christ commissioned to teach and guide us during our earthly journey. Jesus and the Apostles did not build a Bible they built a Church which gave us the Bible which they alone are qualified to teach with infallibility. To him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.

Subject: Re: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

Date: 3/26/2002 2:30 PM Central Standard Time

Message-id: <20020326153002.02922.00000333@mb-ba.aol.com>

I also have upheld the Word of God as the Foundation and Manifold Wisdom of the Church as Scripture states:

Ephesians 3:8 Although I am less than the least of all God's people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,

9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things. 10 His intent was that now, through the Church, the manifold Wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to His Eternal Purpose which He accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Notice in the above Scripture that:

1) Paul was making this hidden mystery plain to everyone - by Divine Revelation from Jesus Christ. Plain enough for the simple people of the world to understand, (1Cor1:26; Lk10:21).

2) The Word of God clearly indicates that the Church is NOT the manifold Wisdom of God. Rather, through the Church, the Manifold Wisdom of God should be made known.

Steve, this is a play on words, the text say's that THROUGH THE CHURCH THE MANIFOLD WISDOM OF GOD IS MADE KNOWN...

Engage RE: Play on words? If the Bible does not state that the Church is the Manifold Wisdom of God, then I will not believe it.

Yes, the text say's (I quote to you):

"THROUGH THE CHURCH THE MANIFOLD WISDOM OF GOD IS MADE KNOWN..",

The Manifold Wisdom of God is God's Divine Revelation - HIS WISDOM given to the Church (who are all those who believe in Christ all united by ONE SPIRIT) through the Prophets and Apostles - once for all delivered to the saints, and MADE PLAIN for ALL to understand.

This means that the Word of God is revealed to us in both oral and written form. There is no new revelation regarding salvation but there is a deepened revelation of a doctrine that has already been taught. It may be true that all we need for our salvation is given to us in writing but there are a few problems with the Evangelical understanding of this. First of all, it assumes that each individual can correctly interpret the scriptures themselves to achieve salvation. We know this cannot be true because no Protestant denomination or non denomination agrees on what the scriptures teach exactly alike. Secondly, it assumes that an intellectual and theological understanding of the scriptures is enough for salvation and Jesus himself said this is not

true:

Engage RE: What you stated in your above quote is what separates the True Church of Christ from the false ones.

The RCC, along with the other cults, USE God's Word as a toy to promote their own agenda as a deeper revelation. They interpret it to their own destruction and the destruction of all who believe their lies:

4 I tell you this so that no one May DECEIVE YOU BY FINE-SOUNDING ARGUMENTS. . . 8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on HUMAN TRADITION and the basic principles of this world - RATHER THAN ON CHRIST.

Romans 16:25 Now to HIM who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to revelation of the Mystery hidden for long ages past,

27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of THIS MYSTERY, which is Christ In YOU, the hope of Glory.

2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. Kjv

ALL ITS FULLNESS HAD NOW BEEN DISCLOSED BY THE APOSTLES - By the COMMAND OF GOD - IN THE BIBLE, PLAINLY REVEALED as the above Scriptures plainly teach. Jude states likewise:

Jude 3 . . . I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the Faith that was once for all entrusted to the Saints.

So that even the foolish and simple could understand - but the wise and arrogant would not be able to understand:

Luke 10:21 Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the Learned and Wise, and Revealed them to Little Children." niv

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the Power of God. 19 For it is Written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar?...

And God gave us His Spirit - for all Christians are - THE CHURCH - the Priesthood of God and LIVING STONES - so that we could easily comprehend what the Apostles

made plain for us in writing so there would be no confusion.

1 Corinthians 2:12 We have not received the spirit of this world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what He has freely given us.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets: "They will all be taught by God." Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from Him comes to me. niv

What do we learn from the HOLY SCRIPTURES that GOD commanded should be written down and entrusted with us? Concerning the revelation of the Gospel of Christ:

now revealed and made known through the Prophetic Writings

IF a supposed organization claims to be the Church of Christ, but then tells us we cannot understand God's Word or that we need deeper revelation than what God has

already revealed, and then directs us to:

ANYONE OTHER THAN CHRIST in Heaven (THE REVEALED MYSTERY AND FOUNATION OF THE CHURCH) that organization is a FALSE PROPHET!!!!!!!

Galatians 1:8 "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!"

Only to Christ are we taught by God to depend on and come to and pray through for all things and for our salvation:

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets: "They will all be taught by God." Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from Him comes to me. niv

And we will be JUDGED BY EVERYTHING WRITTEN IN THOSE BOOKS - not be the traditions of men.

Revelation 20:12 "...And the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. "

John 12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.

Subject: Re: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

Date: 3/26/2002 2:59 PM Central Standard Time

Message-id: <20020326155950.02942.00000238@mb-ba.aol.com>

No room here is given for new revelation and more foundation than that which was already laid. All we need for salvation was given to us in writing:

The Apostle Paul writes:

So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the traditions (Greek=paradosis) we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter. 2 Thess 2:15

Engage RE: You still do not know what Paradosis means - even after I gave you a thorough Greek lesson on the word "Paradosis" in which you never had an answer for.

Paradosis does not equal Tradition. Nevertheless, the Apostles never passed onto the Church any traditions. They always gave plenary (Word for Word) revelation by the Spirit of Christ when explaining the Mystery of Christ through the Gospel - as even your own Church teaches which I quoted for you. Again, you could not refute it. Instead you just keep repeating the same errors over and over.

God commanded, and entrusted to us, all we need IN WRITING so that no one would deceive us - as was quoted to you earlier and in many other messages I gave you repeatedly. I used Holy Scripture as my authority.

You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. St John 5:39

Engage RE: You didn't quote the rest of it …

"For these are the Scriptures that testify about ME, yet you refuse to COME TO ME to have LIFE."

The RCC is directing its members to go to everyone BUT CHRIST - the MYSTERY REVEALED - CHRIST IN US THE HOPE OF GLORY!!!! Therefore the RCC is the False Prophet.

What we need is a living entity commissioned by God to teach us the scriptures with infallibility so we can know for sure we are correctly following God's Holy Word which is revealed to us in a triune way: 1)the Holy Scriptures (all 73 books), 2)Sacred Traditon, 3) and the Magesterium of the Church. In addition we need the Sacraments of the Church which are necessary for us to be saved such as Baptism (St.John 3:3-7; St.Mark 16:16; Acts 2:37-39; 22:16; 1Peter 3:21), the Eucharist ( St John 6:35-58), and the Sacrament of Reconciliation [(Confession) St John 20:22]

Engage RE: The Church is God's people - a living organism made up of those who are called by God to Follow CHRIST.. If a Teacher or Preacher - claiming to be a priest - is adding new or deeper revelation and more foundation then what was already laid - then that Teacher (the RCC) is a deceitful workman and a false prophet.

1 Peter 2:4 As you come to HIM, the Living Stone - rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to HIM - 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a Holy Priesthood, offering Spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

There are NO EARTHLY PRIESTS other than the PRIESTHOOD OF BELIEVERS - IN WHOM GOD DWELLS BY HIS SPIRIT. THAT IS THE CHURCH!!!

Steve it is YOU who are denying the scriptures. You are arguing from the presupposition that "The Word of God" means "the Bible." You are wrong! The Word of God is Jesus (John 1:1)

Engage RE: The term "Word of God" is only used to refer to Christ Jesus himself by the Apostle John - once in John 1:1 and the other in Revelation. IN all other instances, the "Word of God" refers to the Holy Scriptures/Prophetic Writings that teach us the complete Revelation of the Mystery once for all revealed in ALL ITS FULLNESS and MADE PLAIN TO UNDERSTAND to all men - Christ in us the Hope of Glory. I gave you the Scriptures so that you might understand. I gave you no deeper revelation of my own interpretations.

All that we believe about Christ, and by which we are born again, saved, sanctified, cleansed, and judged comes to us by God through direct revelation from His Prophets and Apostles about Christ.

Romans 10:17 Consequently, Faith comes from hearing the Message, and the Message is heard through the Word about Christ.

1 Ephesians 1:13 And you were included in Christ when you heard the Word of Truth, the Gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in Him with a seal, the promise of the Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession - to the praise of His glory.

Through this Word of Christ we are cleansed by the washing with the water of God's Word:

Ephesians 5:25 …just as Christ loved the Church and gave Himself for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the Word, 27 and to present her to Himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

John 15:3 You are already clean because of the Word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in ME and I will remain in you.

1 Peter 1:23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring Word of God. 24 For, "All men are like grass, and all their glory is

like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the Word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the Word we preached to you. Niv

Revelation 20:12 "...And the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. "

Christ himself will not judge us. Yes, he will sit on the throne as Judge. But Christ stated that the WORD OF GOD would judge them on that Day:

John 12:48 There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day.

Therefore the Manifold Wisdom of the Church is the Word of God - which is the Word about Christ. No one can ever hope to believe in Christ, or be saved, except by the Word about Christ. You take away the Word of Christ, and the Church falls into false doctrine/apostasy and collapses. Christ is our Foundation. But all that we have come to know about Him and by which we are saved, comes to us by God's Word which has been entrusted to the Church and revealed to the Church by the Prophetic Writings at the command of God Almighty.

Once again, anyone who is taught by God can understand what is Written, because it was made plain to understand for everyone who is taught by God.

The RCC teaches a "different Gospel" so they are apostate:

Why because you say so?

Engage RE: Because the Prophetic Writings - once for all entrusted to the saints, made plain to understand for all and fully revealed - tells me so. The RCC teaches a "deeper revelation" that is alien to the HOLY WORD OF GOD.

You don't even have a complete Bible but a 66 book incomplete and truncated version of the Bible.

Engage RE: Already shown you your error concerning the extra books the RCC rubber stamped with God's Name and forced into the HOLY BIBLE. You could not refute the evidence I gave you. All you could do is keep repeating:

Yah, right! NO where in Scripture does it even state that God's Church is infallible. So I sure am not going to believe that the RCC - a false prophet - is infallible. God's Word is INFALLIBLE - which your reject in favor of the "deeper revelation" of the RCC.

Your Church history begins in the late 19th century!

Engage RE: Already discussed this too, and you had no proof to the contrary. The Protestants are completely unified in the Gospel of Christ as taught by the Prophetic Writings. The RCC has changed the Gospel from what the Prophetic Writings plainly and fully reveal for all to see.

Ours begins in the first century!

Engage RE: Yours began with the apostates who replaced the Gospel of Christ with their traditions and "deeper revelations" concerning Mary, the Popes, Purgatory, Works to keep us justified, Praying to angels and the spirits of the deceased, the infallible RCC, and a host of other such blasphemies which usurp the Glory of Christ and the Word of God.

Yours is the Apostate Church that, for 3 years, Paul warned would come. He warned them with tears.

Acts 20:29-31 I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the Truth in order to draw away the disciples after them. So be on your guard! Remember that for three years I never stopped warning each of you night and day with tears. niv

Shortly after Peter left, Apostate teachers came in and distorted the Truth with their traditions - just like the Pharisees did. They drew away disciples after them by deception. That is how the RCC was formed. The True Church of God continued - even within the RCC.

However, you will find the majority of the "called out ones - those who follow Christ and pray to God through Him" in the Protestant churches who are all unified and grounded in

Sincerely,

Steven

Subject: Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

Date: 3/25/2002 12:23 PM Central Standard Time

Message-id: <20020325132356.13120.00000043@mb-ct.aol.com>

I also have upheld the Word of God as the Foundation and Manifold Wisdom of the Church as Scripture states:

Where did you read this? The Foundation of the Church is Christ our Lord,

with the Apostles and Prophets.

Ephesians 3:10 His intent was that now, through the Church, the manifold Wisdom of God should be made known

The Church makes known the manifold Wisdom of God.