Discussions: - Begging
by Jane & other writers on msn communities
July 1, 2000
Subject: Thoughts from the Dome
From: MichaelJ
Sent: 3/20/00 1:56 am
I am a member of another MSN community called "The Pleasure Dome" which currently has about 300 members. The community is for writers and is quite active and filled with some very well written and thoughtful postings.
Our new member "JANE" picked up a posting on Begging from here and posted it on The Dome. I thought our members might like to see some of the responses.
(Note: I will add a Link to the Dome on our front page)
From: Jane
Sent: 3/19/00 8:33 am
Of course, in India, as in other populated countries, it is totally impossible to give to all of the beggars. Yet in either case the operative is the word to 'give'. Giving is not only a passing of something from hand to hand. There is another level of giving, which is about respect, and addressing the highest point in your fellow human being. This person is another version of YOU! However they are, whatever they've been brought to, to do them the courtesy of an audience, or of attention, from a family basis, is in itself a gift. Contrary to popular supposition, I don't consider myself 'better' than anyone else - I only ever measure myself against my personal best, and treat others accordingly
In Rishikesh a few years ago, I found a woman roaming around the edges of the river Ganges, down stream, where there is a wide beach-like area bestrewn with sand and boulders from when the melt waters that used (before the Tehri Dam) to spread more widely across the region. Her hair had been cut very short, marking her as an inmate of an ashram for destitute, aged, lepers, and the mentally ill. The latter was clearly her problem, as she was naked as the day of her birth, and seemed oblivious to the fact. I went and bought her a dhoti (a strip of cloth the men use to tie around their waists - no point in a sari as a) she had her hair cut to 'defeminise' her for her protection, and b) saris are more expensive, and the item would not be so easy for her to use, I also bought her a simple blouse, and dressed, she accompanied me while I shopped for bread and milk. I left her with the purchases and continued on my way.
In India people are far more obvious with their opinions based on this simple gesture. The shopkeepers nodded at me, the stallholders smiled, all called out as I passed, and not to sell me wares, either - this was not part of the Indian way of doing things. I was treated as a saint (there are many of them in India) even though by the next day she was still being thrown away from chai shops and had taken off her clothing in mortification, perhaps feeling that, treated like an animal, she would dress like one 'Yey Pugla hain' the people would say, shaking their heads. (She’s mad), but not considering that their own actions and rejections had contributed to her misery, where little light was left in her eyes to even attempt to interact with society.
This same look I have seen in beggars in this country. Perhaps they go to Barnado's, and are donated a suit, or a pair of shoes, entirely out of the class their clothing would normally reflect. For a little while they sit on their usual bench, perhaps having shaved, or combed their hair, to go with the outfit, and to lift their self-esteem. Yet within a day or so (you see it here in Glastonbury) they will be back in their old clothes, the others sold for a blanket or a can of brew, as they are then accepted back into the society of vagrants, whereas neatened, they are ignored by mainstream and alternative alike.
Appearances can be deceptive - our own attitudes have agendas implanted which we are unaware of, and the daily dharm of attempting to improve this world in whatever tiny way we can is increasingly difficult as the outcomes of our actions are not always predictable. This is the most plausible reason for apathy yet.
Jane
From: MichaelJ...
Sent: 3/19/00 12:21 pm
Thanks, JOC and Jane for mentioning "Practical Philosophy", where I act as Assistant Manager and JOC is an active writer.
(NB: http://communities.msn.co.uk/practicalphilosophy )
For the Philosophical questions, which may not fit here (although I do hope that they do fit here, you may want to join PP and post there. All are welcome.
I wonder, are "acts of spontaneous generosity" contagious?
For me, they are. There is a sort of wonderful mischief in them, because they overturn the preconception of most people that we are purely selfish human beings, and I think that such a conception needs an occasional tweek.
From: shona
Sent: 3/19/00 4:46 pm
Yes, thanks for pointing out this site. Somehow, the link with the other site passed me by, but I suspect the questions asked in this site are asking the sort of questions I always end up asking myself.
Whether I give or not depends on absolutely loads of factors. Usually the first criterion is whether I have any change in my pocket. If no, I wouldn't go to a cash point and get some out or anything like that.
If money is tight for me/my family, I won't give either. My duty is to them first.
If it's lunchtime, I tend not to give, because I noticed the streets of Ipswich attract dozens and dozens of beggars at lunchtimes. There are so many, they seem to be on every street corner. In a single lunchhour, I reckon I will spot 25-30 people, mainly Big Issue sellers, in Ipswich town centre. On top of that, there are about 25-30 canvassers, who really annoy me. All I want to do is walk from A to B. You can't do it. Too many interruptions. Anyone who accosts me during between noon and 2pm is automatically told "no, thank you." and I walk off quickly.
But there are exceptions. If I see someone sitting next to a sign saying homeless and hungry, and it's a bitterly cold day, the sort of day that numbs your fingers and wind cuts through your coat, I will give, even if I suspect them to be druggies or boozers. Anyone who sits out in weather like that deserves the money.
I often give to buskers, because I like the music that they make. I don't tend to think of busking as begging. I tend to think of it as artists practising.
I buy the Big Issue usually once a week. Sometimes it gets chucked without me reading it, though I like reading it because it raises issues not normally seen in other newspapers. It has an alternative view, which I like to ponder on. During the 1980s I used to buy Socialist Worker for exactly the same reason, even if I didn't support the politics.
That said, I have my "favourite" Big Issue sellers in Ipswich. There are two lads in particular, who are just utterly charming. They're scruffy, with amazing hairstyles, and have horrible body piercing, but they, themselves, are just lovely people. Their humour, for instance,
"Come on now, ladies, the latest issue of the Big Issue. Twice as boring as last week."
And yes, they do smile, when they hand you the mag. They say things like "Have a lovely day, madam" and they look you directly in the eye. Once, when I met one of them for the first time, I declined to buy a mag from him, and he said, "Have a nice day anyway, madam." I tell you, if I ever wanted to employ two salespeople, I’d think the idea candidates were these two lads. They are so effective at connecting with people.
But, such is the way of the world that they would probably make a better living at selling the Big Issue than they would in most types of employment, firstly, because they must shift loads of copies, and secondly, because starting work after a spell on the dole, (from what I've heard) never seems to be an easy transition.
I once gave money on the London Underground to this woman with a baby in her arms and a note saying she had just come from Bosnia and had no money and needed some. As soon as I gave it, I regretted it. Her eyes were just dead, like a corpse. She really spooked me. I will never give money to anyone on the Underground ever again.
Maybe it is patronising to want some sort of connection with the person you're giving to. Yes, it is probably insufferably patronising. But if someone helps me out of a jam, I tell them so. I don't glare at them as if I hate their guts.
From: freespeech
Sent: 3/19/00 5:49 pm
Jane, I was very touched by your story of the little girl. I don't think I could travel to a really poor country because I might (like the poor crazy lady by the river) show up at the airport with only a return ticket and wearing the clothes on my back after giving every thing away.
In America, the beggars you see on the street are usually alcoholics or the imbalanced. I work in a public library and there are many such persons that spend most of the time either in the library or begging on street corners. They hold out signs "I will work for food", which is a holdover from the days of America's Great Depression of the 1930s. Many older people see this and give money because they were impoverished when young. But they don't understand that these persons are very different from the old days. They often beg right in front of restaurants that desperately want employees. The money they get goes straight into the liquor store - I've seen this first hand many times. Giving them money merely supports them in their self-destructive ways.
On the other hand, to help someone to survive (not give them liquor money) is not only good but a moral imperative for practising Christians ('When I was naked, did you clothe me? When I was hungry, did you feed me? Inasmuch as you denied your brethren, you denied Me.').
Thank-you for your beautiful thoughts on love in another posting.
"Thoughtful deeds bring happiness".
freespeech
From: Vann-the-man
Sent: 3/19/00 6:02 pm
Shona don't beat yourself up for wanting to be appreciated. I can't stand those sort of people either. People who can't be grateful when you've done something for them that you didn't have to do don't deserve the favour. Call me a hard nosed git if you like, but I've given and I've seen that look you mention. I've also refused and then faced lorry loads of abuse, which I hastily return, and that ends that little encounter as they scurry off without my money. The only thing people like that get from me is my words ringing in their ears, not my money jingling in their pockets.
The trouble is, who do you help? When do you know it's a genuine case of need and not greed. How can you ever be sure that the person you're giving to hasn't got a better life than you have? We seldom know, so we either give because we genuinely care, or it makes us feel as though we've done something good, or simply to clear our conscience. Or we take the hard view that most are just sponging on us because we look the type that wouldn't like to create a scene in a public place and would rather give them something just so they'd go away and leave us alone.
I was approached at Kings Cross Station by a man once whilst I was waiting for my wife to come out of the reservations office. He asked if I could spare him some change and he looked like a typical oily lamp so I gave him a pound coin. Well he looked at it for a second and then said, "Can you spare us another one?" To be honest I wanted to kick him in the three piece suite, but there were too many old bill about for me to get away with it so I just gave him a glare that said a thousand naughty words and he shuffled off. Not two minutes later another guy came up to me from the same direction as the other one had walked off to and this guy asked me straight out, "Spare us a pound mate" Unable to control my temper, no that's a lie, I could've controlled my temper, I just didn't want too. So I told him what I thought he should do with himself before I did it for him and he walked away shouting at me as if I owed him the money and was refusing to pay him back for something. If you think about it, a lesser or smaller person than me would probably have been so intimidated by those two men that they would've given up their money out of fear rather than be confronted by them in that way.
So don't feel bad about wanting a genuine thank you for helping someone. It's normal, it's right and if it doesn't happen, then it's them who have a problem with the way they think not you.
Vann-the-show a bit of gratitude-man
From: angie
Sent: 3/20/00 1:24 am
Well I wasn't going to reply to this one at all, mainly because you will all think I'm a miserable bitch, but what the hey... I do not give money to anyone. Sandwiches, bananas, cups of tea, blankets etc.... yes, money no.
I am a firm believer in the old adage - God helps those who help themselves.
I am truly sorry that life has dealt various people a shitty life. And I know, there but for the grace of God... But look would I really be helping someone by giving them money for their next fix? Helping someone flush what little is left of their life down the toilet doesn't help them. If you want to help then get out there on a cold winter's night and volunteer for a soup van. Or give time to help at the local homeless shelter. Or give your experience in getting a job to help others back into employment. Right now I'm giving my time and experience to the local school to help disaffected kids get through their GCSEs. I'm doing it for free and hopefully it might stop the child I'm mentoring at the moment stay out of the nick and get into the army instead. (Which is what he wants to do.)
I get very angry when people approach me in the street expecting money, because I don't have that much of it myself and I need it to keep a roof over my head and that of my son. One thing is for sure; I will not be bullied by the destitute into giving money. I will however give anything else I can to help people to help themselves.
It's like they say about every major disaster - the money you donate only helps in the short term. What people really need is an infrastructure that will enable them to be self-sufficient. That way they can regain some dignity and pride.
angie
From: MichaelJ
Sent: 3/20/00 2:00 am
Sorry about the >squeeze<!
I'm not sure why that happened.
From: Jane
Sent: 3/20/00 4:33 pm
I suspect that the reactions all the Domers experienced (shona, vann, angie) were perhaps a response to various criteria.
a)None of these felt they could give without judgement
b)Each mentioned 'non deserving cases' as being justification for not giving, yet
c) Would give armfuls of blankets, baskets of food and provide shelter and soup kitchens.for deserving cases (their assessment) (smilers and thankers) (socially functional)
I would ask - in this society - how easy is it when you're hungry, to find a person with a blanket and a hot meal, ready to hand it to you?
Does charity preclude choice (eat it and lump it - it's nice - it's good for you - if you don't like it get your own ---y grub, 'I've sweated over a hot smorgasbord for this' etc)
Breathtaking arrogance, charity for the sake of self worth - to be seen to be doing something, but not to be seen to be taken for a ride - etc,
If someone is a professional beggar, so what? If they aren't, and are destitute, what then?
Let's face it, angie shona and vann, when did you last give a blanket to someone?
If you'd been tortured, were a refugee, had asked 500 people for a quid and three had responded, would you gush your appreciation? In your dreams, in the movies, in the stage play of Oliver, but in real life?
I'm saddened by the hard line, the lack of respect for the destitute, the assumption that they're all druggies or drunks - and if all these people had to beg from was a reception like this I'm not surprised they turn to anaesthetic, to keep out cold, loneliness, hunger, apathy, rejection, and whatever problems being compounded from the original reason they became beggars.
I don't see love, I see self-justification, and a desire not only to be seen to do the right thing, but to think of oneself as doing the right thing
Humility is the result of begging - both for the giver and the receiver, and it is a shining gift.
The woman with the child, and I saw many in Delhi, not always their own, are as hardnosed as the whores, and just as desperate.
Without a working husband/wife, publishing contract, job, news editor who allows a family (not all do) - and lacking the education and skills or training, references, homes, appropriate clothes, track record to get a job with, what else are these people to do? They are the grown up little girl with the dirty rag. Any 'prop' or 'hook' - this is survival, not society...
And to continually run up against attitudes like these, it is not surprising.
I don't have a lot of respect for givers who want something back from the recipient - that's not a gift, it's trade.
You get yours further down the line, when you're old, incontinent, incoherent, unconscious, or whatever, a victim. at the mercy of others. Unable to give back. or even reply. By the rules of give/take there would be no NHS or asylum for the mentally ill, traumatised, victims of torture, refugees, drug addicts unable to believe that life is worth living without something to take away the startling clarity that the majority of the Great British Public just don't give a damn.
I was in a chemist’s shop, my head splitting with migraine, sliding down the wall, keening on the floor waiting for my prescription. Too obvious. I was not served until the last customer had left the shop; even those who came in after me. Because they thought I was something despicable, to behave like that in public. I could not even speak for the pain, and it was nearly 25 minutes of agony, and then I asked for some water.
It took the gesture of one woman, out of twenty odd people, who came and held my hand and started to stroke it. The tears are filling my eyes as I remember this - at the time they spilled over down my face. She discovered my problem, and asked for me to be served. She was the last to leave. I went outside, could not get my daughter on the phone, and waited 30 minutes more in my car for the painkillers to work before I could drive home. The next day I went back into the chemist (to a different team) and gently explained what happened and said that I hoped they didn't treat other clients in the same way
It's our outlook. We need so badly to love - yet are on an endless pursuit of substandard and substitute happiness. Just a little opening of the eyes, the hearts, the hands, that's all it takes.
And even if not, then the judgement is like giving Jesus another lash over the forty - do we want to be responsible for that?
Jane
From: MichaelJ
Sent: 3/21/00 2:06 am
Jane, thanks for sharing your story here.
The memory of the pain you felt cannot be pleasant. The good news is that you (seem to be) in a different place now and so the pain is a memory not a present reality.
I suspect that one of the key characteristics of those that give freely is a sense of identification with the beggar. If you can see the common humanity in the beggar, and his or her need, what other justification is required?
Now those who are somewhat better off that surround the beggar but do not give are probably trying hard to avoid seeing the link. Perhaps they think: I got out of the gutter why can't he/she?
The times when I am most likely to give are when I feel most beat-up and can therefore share the emotion that I suspect the beggar carries. Is this just me or a common experience?
From: Jane
Sent: 3/21/00 6:23 am
I think you've hit the nail on the head there, Michael, with that remark about the attempt to distance oneself. For me this kind of ambition is pointless. Yes, it's lonely at the top as well as at the bottom, and we can't please/serve everyone. But to have the realisation that we are all versions of One Being - exploded and multiplied by space-time - is to have the realisation that those who refuse to open their hearts to others are just as out of touch with themselves.
. (Which means a part of me is out of touch with myself) That 'even' the beggar (why not?) can be more evolved than the businessman. with or without his bottle - look at Omar Khayyam, and others - Conan D'Oyle - drinkers, druggies -
Many of our finest actors, artists, musicians - some tried to numb the pain of this out-of-sorts reality, (the mind-numbing complacency and self-satisfied arrogance), with self-medication - whether drink or drugs. There were so many women in the 60's who had to contend with awakening to the nature of reality for women - and decided to close their eyes behind valium, librium, to avoid seeing and feeling the frustration engendered from the slow wheels turning between stages of human evolution.
IN the interim, women had to suffer (and still do) the attitude that it is ok to educate women, but leave them at home - let them get good qualifications, but pay them peanuts -I'm a victim of this myself, a graduate, postgraduate, but family responsibilities as a single parent of five stopped me doing more than dragging my children through poverty - and now I'm too late to look for 'a job' - so I write.
The sadness I felt was not maudlin self pity. It was the spectre of a world in which one person in twenty might notice someone crying in agony, and 19 think she's a druggie doing it to get attention and her 'script'.
As it happens, I really dislike any mind-altering substance INCLUDING alcohol, would rarely drink more than a glass of wine in a month, and doesn’t smoke, or even take prescribed drugs, if I can help it. That isn't the point, however - if I were a 'druggie' - would my agony be any the less?
What brings tears is the energy they put in to ignore what was happening, and to ensure I did not 'get anywhere' by 'making a scene' (on the floor, leaning against the wall with my eyes closed against the iced glass shards of light that stabbed at them when opened)
The tears are for the state of our race. I grew up in the fifties - was a Girl Guide 'lend a hand' brownie, and learned first aid, etc. My mother was the kind of soul who would talk to anyone, help anyone - yet she wasted years of her life on tranquillisers to block out the cold, analysing and distancing stares of her stepsons.
The fifties were staid, and the sixties warm and open - hitch-hiking was easy, kindness abounded, rues were to break, love ruled - then Kennedy was shot, the Beatles split up, the Tories got in, and Punk, Thrash and Grunge music told the youngsters that the time had come to turn to the other side of the coin. Flower Power was ridiculed, sensibilities were trodden on, it was cool and trendy to worry about images again, and the waters closed over where the dry land had started to emerge.
There are forces bigger than we are at work here, and it is not just logic - it is that the mind has a vested interest in ignorance - with cleverness - as that prevents the higher, spiritual dimension from superseding mind. So we crush our little daisies of inspiration, and get right back to the main agenda - personal improvement of material situations and power games, and elbow the opposition (or belittle, discredit, or ridicule them) until anyone who could have helped unlock the key to the mystery of your unhappiness is safely away from you, and your misery is intact... quarantined, yet present.
Of course, I am abstracting a lot from a small event - however, heaven in a grain of sand - there are so many opportunities for us to see how life 'ticks' around us - and the explanations don't get us as far as the dynamic for senseless serendipitous acts of sudden kindness, or whatever the phrase is - I love it - I know it works for me.
When my cashcard was left in the ATM, and I went back after half an hour, against the unlikely hope it might be there - someone had handed it in to the adjacent branch of my building society. To give with no thought of what to receive, allows one to receive what you never in a million years might have thought - and that augurs well, if we are to against all the odds learn from this selfish time and become a cohesive, co-operative, and conscientious people.
From: Jane
Sent: 3/21/00 6:43 am
And if anyone would like to answer me personally on any of the above, you may like to take a look at my website
http://communities.msn.co.uk/wingedheartrealestate
which also has links to the other winged heart sites and back to the Pleasure Dome. I have put a link to this site n the front page of the Winged Heart (Ethe)Real Estate (WHERE?) so you can get back here. please post a message, leave a poem or whatever. It's about inner space - others are about creativity (WHEN), places (WHERE) and Winged Heart Youth (http://communities.msn.co.uk/WHY)
A good site, Michael. Thankyou.
Jane
PS – A more up to date site can be found at http://www.fortunecity.com/skyscraper/mime/1753
My Poems can be found on http://geocities.com/~poetsgalore/woaw/poets/jane.html