While I was on the discussion group on the usenet called "talk.athiesm" back in November 2002, one guy that was an atheist started a post called "Thanksgiving Proclaimation" where he stated the reason why he did not like anything about the holiday thankgiving here in the USA and it's connection to religion. While I was reading the responses to his posts, some christian nutcase started raving and ranting about his belief in god and why he thinks that people cannot be moral without the bible and the belief that god and/or jesus christ exist.
What really made me kind of fustrated about this individual (besides coming into an atheist DG and posting his religious nonsense) is that he stated that people and society do not know what is right and what is wrong because of things like abortion, homosexuality, and adultery, existing among our society. This guy sounded like such a big hypocrite that it really makes me wonder why do people like these even exist on this planet earth with the more logical people in the first place.
Anyway, I know that I stated the reasons why christians is wrong about having morality only in their religious beliefs and no one else, but I do want to go a little further on why christians that talk about morality coming exclusively from the bible is wrong by stating some of the less know arguments that they make and responding to them here on this webpage.
Morality Argument #1: Without the bible and a belief in god, mankind doesn't know what is right and what is wrong.
A: First off, morality have existed among human beings and other species long before christianity even existed. There are many cultures throughout history that predates christianity that have done things like created laws, scientific discoveries, etc. The Maya and Inca civilization for instance predates christianity about a thousand years, and archaeological evidence shows that these civilizations have lived in society morally and done many scientific discoveries like created the calendar, mathamatics, and astronomy. Inspite the fact that the people have somehow vanish off the face of the earth for unknown reasons, the point is that christianity have nothing to do with these people having a moral society and that these people have lived without christianity.
Hinduism, Buddhism, paganism, taoism, Islamic/Muslim, etc. all have claimed to have morality in their religious system. Many of these religion have existed long christianity have appeared, and many of them have existed in a moral society.
As I said in my first webpage about morality, it is the process that we need in order to survive and reproduce. Treat others the way you want to be treated. It's that simple. Morality comes from instinct and environmental surrondings, not from a book and not from a belief in fictional characters.
Also, I cannot help but wonder those christians that do make the morality argument like the one above are just saying that out of pure selfishness? What I mean by that is, are they upset just because the world and the people in it do not revolve around their religion or they cannot except the fact that they are not being moral or perfect themselves? Because if many christians really feel that they cannot be moral without their religion, the maybe I should be glad that their religion is here. I don't want them in my neighborhood when they start losing their faith and decided to treat someone in a immoral manner.
Morality Argument #2: The bible is the perfect source of morality.
*LOL* Yeah Right. The bible is full of contradictions, inconsistencies, and outrageous stuff that could not possibly happen in reality. Here is a example. The bible said that their god created the rule "Thou Shalt Not Kill" (Exodus 20:13). Now that is pretty good advice that many people should follow even though people should already know that based on experience and instinct and not a book. However, what about some of the horrible stuff that the christian god also did according to the same book like destroying a nation full of men, women, kids, and animals for practically no good reason at all (Joshua 6:21 as an example). How about this god killing everyone in the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah [except for the "Righteous" Lot and his family] just because this god didn't like what they are doing (Genesis 19:24). Or how it killing someone for doing simple stuff like picking up sticks on the sabbath day (Numbers 15:32-36 as an example) and nearly killing Moses just because his son wasn't circumcised yet (Exodus 4:24-26 as an example).
Here is a website on more info about the cruelty, absurities, and violence in the bible.
Biblical Injustice
Cruelty and Violence
The point that I'm trying to make is, how can christians get their moral guidance from a book that is full of contradictions and inconsistencies, and how can they have any morals from a god (for the sake of argument assuming that the being exists) that contradicts itself and cannot follow it's own rules? Also, why would it be moral to hurt people for doing stuff like picking up sticks on the sabbath or killing someone just because their son is not circumcised?
Believe it or not, there are many christians out there and throughout history that have done horrible things to people just because the bible told them to do it, which brings me to my next argument............
Moral argument #3: Christians throughout history have been kind to people and have been moral because of the bible.
Oh Really?! Did you know that Hitler was a christian (or at least some type of theist), and that he slaughtered many jewish people in concentration camps because he claimed that it was the jews that crucifed Christ and he didn't like the Jews because of this? Did you know that the bible supported slavery and that many european settlers like Christopher Colombus used the bible to justify putting the native americans and africans into slavery? What about the Witch hunt/burning, the crusades and inquisitions in european history? Religious people did all of that because their religious scriptures said they could. Many scientist like Galileo was executed by religious people because his scientific discoveries conflicted with their belief system.
IF you guys want to know more about the horrible stuff that christians did throughout history then check out this website:
Victims of the Christian Faith
I'm not trying to imply that all christians are like this. I have respect for historical figures such as Martin Luther King inspite of the fact that he is a theist. I have met many christians in the past that do not do any of this stuff to people just because they do not like it and just because the bible told them. However, if their religious scriptures like the bible say they can do horrible stuff like what I just mentioned above to people just because someone isn't following their religious beliefs; then I can't help but wonder if many christians are really moral or not (or have subjective morals: meaning that they change their moral code at any time they see fit).
Moral Argument #4: You should believe in god because if you follow his rules according to the bible, you will go to heaven after you die. If you do not, then you will go to hell for not believing in him.
I've been around many christians that preach to people that are gullible enough to believe the crap about the heaven and hell bit at a attempt to try to convert those people into their religious beliefs. Then these christians think they are going to get some type of reward like their souls going to heaven or something like that from their god just because they have converted someone and pleased their god.
This kind of situation to me is like some kind of robber giving someone a choice of giving him the money or shooting that person in the back if they do not. It would seem that the only reasons why many christians are being moral, is because this god is using some type of "gun" (for a lack of a better metaphor) on them telling them to either follow it's rules and go to heaven, or don't follow it and go to hell.
I know that many christians will come up with the free will story claiming that people choose to follow this god's rules or not, therefore it is the person's fault, not god. However, think about this. Again with the example about the robber. The robber pulls a gun to your head and gives you a choice of your money or your life. If you go to court and the robber use the free will argument in his/her defense saying that it is not his/her fault because he gave you a choice and you chose on you own free will to use one of those choices of giving him the money or he will kill you, would that make any sense to you what-so-ever? In the situation of being rob and the robber pulling a gun to your head and giving you a ultimatum, you had no free will to begin with. The robber had control over the situation because he threatened your life with a gun into coercing you to give your money to him, or he will kill you.
That is the same thing with this christian god. This god is not offering free will by giving people choices of following it and go to heaven, or don't follow it and go to hell because it is using those ultimatums as control to the situation and christians are using it to coerced people into following it. Therefore christians are being moral because of this, not because of something simple like treating other the way you want to be treated.
Another thing that I wanted to point out about this statement is that those christians that do make the "Worship god or go to hell" statement makes me wonder if these christians really do care about people and having morals. Like I explain in my first essay on morality called "Debunking Christians on Morality" about the situation where some guy offered two guys name Mark and Tom $1000 dollars if they help some old lady cross the street without getting hit by cars. Are many christians are being moral to other people because they expect some kind of reward after death, or are they serious being moral because they don't want to be treated immorally by anyone else and expect the same respect from other people? Also, for the sake of argument of assuming that their god exist, what if their god wasn't capable of offering them some type of reward of going to heaven after they die? Are they going to still worship it, or are they only worshipping it because it can offer them this reward after they die.
That is why I as an atheist have morals. I want to be treated with respect just like everyone one esle wanted to be treated, not because of some "reward" after I die.
Moral Arguement #5: Okay. So you say that christians are not perfect. That's fine, but atheist and other non-christians are not exactly perfect and nice people either.
I agree that there are many atheists and other non-christians that are not perfect. There are atheists and non-christian murderers, child molesters, rapists, etc. I'm not trying to debunk the christian's idea of morality in an attempt to imply that atheists are more moral. However, the problem that I have with this statement is that I have yet to see any atheists that claim their "beliefs" and ideas are the sources or moral guidance. Many christians (especially fundamentalists) that I know of always go around and telling non-christians that without their religious beliefs, then one cannot be moral. On top of that, christians that do make those claims about not being moral without being in their religious beliefs are usually the same type of people that end up raping women, killing their own kids (Andrea Yates ring a bell?), bombing abortion clinics, making up lies about atheists and other non-christians to make their religious beliefs sound good, beating up homosexuals, and so on. This is why I have such a big problem with many christians that go around and promoting thier religious beliefs. They claim that their religion is the sources of all morals, but when it comes to those that do not believe in their religion, they want to treat those people in a immoral way. More proof that this religion supports hypocrisy.
Another thing that I want to point out is that since christianity is the dominate religion here in the USA, the prison system is also popluated with many christians that have committed serious crime to many people as well (and don't tell me that they became christians after they have served their time in jail, because while this may be true, many christians that have committed crimes against others for not being in their religion was christians before they committed the crime and got arrested).
