RC Hamlin/PCCA

I was having a discussion at the RTDA in Tampa about the "good" ASP does for getting a feeling for what the consumer thinks and ran into 100% the opposite opinion by many well known names and vendors that stated that it was impossible to start or continue a thread on ASP without the discussion going in the crapper. Now I know I've had some friction with a few on this newsgroup in the past, we got past it, but I've never thought that the whole purpose of this group was to attack, more so to discuss. After discussing ASP with primary industry members, meaning some established retailers, suppliers and manufacturers, my impression was that they have no interest in being a part of this newsgroup.

The hobbyist point of view is one thing, the plain "user" point of view is another, the internet seller point of view is different, as is the B&M store's owner. It would seem to me that all of the opinions and points of view would be interesting and would add to the over all knowledge of the newsgroup. Industry distributors, suppliers and manufacturers have much more to add to the over all knowledge base, but "trade secrets" being also marketing methods, I doubt ASP will ever get many true industry insiders to post here on a regular basis.

As an example, although ASP is ripe with pipemakers in the artisan or hobbyist class, would not the experience and knowledge of say a professional world wide brand representative from say Ashton, Dunhill, Peterson, Savinelli, or the like add to the knowledge base of ASP? The recent thread which talked about B&M stores vs eBusiness retailers was interesting, but did it get the true manufacturers perspective added to balance the others? The same could be said for tobacco blenders as every store "custom blends" but that's usually adding BCA to 1Q and saying there ya go, YOUR numbered blend more than taking base tobaccos and blending a true personal mixture. Greg P has added a lot of first hand information to ASP as a micro-blender, but wouldn't it add to the ASP-mixture to have someone like Dan Pipe or McClelland who actually sources their leaf from brokers and auctions, who visits the raw-raw material or the fields, manufactures flakes and pressed leafs rather than source their leaf through secondary suppliers or mixes what they can acquire not directly from the auction markets (you gotta be a big company to do that anyway) contribute their knowledge to the group too?

Personally I used to post on ASP a lot, and then I got side tracked with my business and came back to find ASP had changed. No unmoderated newsgroup has a "leader" per se, but they usually have several frequent posters that seem to take that role and semi-moderate a group. The way ASP seems to have changed is that unless you post an "I agree" with a regular, many times you get slammed and insulted. This comment was mentioned over and over with my discussions at the RTDA with industry people, and no I'm not going to mention names from private conversations. I do not think this is a healthy trend for ASP, to post and agree on subjects that should be or could be "discussed" or examined. That's not to say the original post subject is right or wrong or that anyone's opinion is more important than anyone else's. I'm just suggesting that ASP could be more civil and grow if threads like the recent B&M Store type were common and flaming of counter opinions were less the standard fare.

What started this rant is that I decided to start posting more to ASP (again), not so much with AD signs, but with some of my experiences and first hand knowledge. Sure I have my opinions as to who makes the best pipes, who gets the best tobacco and who offers the hobbyist and user the best value, but frankly these are points for discussion not stone cold facts of law. Today I thought about the Samuel Gawith tobacco news item and said there is more to it that just that as current crop tobacco is not used in current production pipe tobacco. I then thought about the various times over the last 30 years that manufacturers and distributors have discontinued product lines or redesigned them and could not come up with one example where any of them even discussed the components of a continual operation-production of a product line. Even with the recent Cigar leaf shortage during the boom, and the current Cuban cigar leaf shortage due to greater demand than sales, I couldn't find an example of a manufacturer stating they were changing a line or pilling out of a market due to a shortage of raw materials - they just raise the price as a rule. I then posted what I considered a "careful" look at what was stated in the news release and what I thought were perhaps other factors that could cause Samuel Gawith to pull back some distribution in the USA.

I will say that my conversations at the RTDA concerning "don't post a counter opinion without expecting to get slammed" were on my mind as I added comments in the beginning and end of my post to the affect of "lets talk about it" (perhaps it could be worded better, but I thought I was talking to adults). I suppose if there was a point or conclusion I offered, it was that I thought that all Samuel Gawith tobaccos produced would still be available to those that wanted them, but at a higher price and perhaps by only overseas ordering of certain mixtures.

Mingkahuna

I fully agree with Mr. Hamlin that ASP should encourage and foster the participation of pipe business folks, along with everyone else.  But, having been here for three years I can't ever recall anyone in the biz being treated rudely.  Yes, some of the conversations regarding distributors may have offended some in the biz (and I've been told by some who were offended that this is the case) but those people weren't even part of the conversations and never even chimed in.  While the topic may not have thrilled them, they never took part. They were never slammed or treated rudely as they never participated. If someone could please give me a specific example of someone in the business being treated rudely I'll recant what I've just said. And, if it has happened, I'll wager that it was an isolated event.

But, the way that I see it is that many people in this business do read ASP, at least part of the time. It seems to have become popular in some circles to deny that one is reading ASP, but it becomes apparent from conversations with many people in the hobby and business that they are indeed involved with ASP as lurkers. As far as I'm concerned a lurker is just as much a member of ASP as any regular.

So, one can complain about ASP and leave, or one can invest one's energy and contribute in the manner that they'd like to see others contribute.  I was told this once by some very wise people and this is how I conduct myself.

But, I can guarantee one thing.  If the people that Mr.Hamlin speaks of were to come to this forum, contribute including the offering of conflicting views, I can guarantee that they would be treated with the utmost respect. C'mon, if anyone has been around here for any time at all they know that when someone from the business contributes they are accorded the utmost respect.

Ian Rastall

It may be a situation where people in the industry expect to get deferential treatment. That already happens here, to some extent, but this is still Usenet, and in the end *any* poster has to abide by standard netiquette.

Freddy Vegas

On your main point of the big "players" not wanting to touch ASP with a 10 foot pole ... I agree 100%. I've been saying that for the past 2 years in this very forum. I've had the same conversations. Is the phrase "pipe weenies" familiar? I've been telling people not to scare more people off for the longest time. I was told to stay away before I even showed up. But truth be known ... I like it here and most of the people here whether or not we disagree. I've opened myself up to much criticism in the past and have again today. I know I can be an a-hole and a F'up at times ... who isn't ... at least I admit it and try better. So what ... I'm an "Adult" (even though your pseudo intellectual insult implies otherwise) with thick skin ... I can deal with it. Even with the "I'll never do business with you again" hate emails. What ... am I supposed to be Fred MacMurrey to get orders ... I don't understand that at all.

Puff Griffis

I also understand why some folks in the upper end of the pipe biz might not want to post to ASP. First things first: the question that I am sure would come up several times a month "Why should I pay $X's for your pipe when I can buy a Dr. Whatever at Walgreen's for 1/100th the price?" you can, I am sure, imagine the same question for tobacco makers being asked about the standard drug store brands.

Now as everyone knows that knows me I could care less what you smoke or by what means you smoke it but where I in the biz I would wring the neck of the 5th or 6th person that asked me the same B.S. questions over and over.

The other thing that MIGHT keep these folks away is the same thing that gave me to abandon ASP a couple years or so ago. The same threads over and over again. I am just not the type of person to repeat myself that many times. I know that several people on ASP are willing to answer the repeat post as many times as we get a new poster but it is just not in my nature.

The final thing that MIGHT keep them away is the folks who would believe that ASP is the place to post gripes about their particular product. We have seen this over and over again with personal attacks against a number of people that are regular posters. I give for one example the Gent that said he would never do business with Bob H. because of his post.

Jay

I would just like to add one more possibility to the list of possible frustrations with ASP:  Lack of shared interest.  You would think the ASPers and and manufacturers/distributors would have a lot in common and enjoy participation in a common forum, but I don't think that is the case.  I doubt that most people in the biz have the time or the inclination to be interested in "pipesmoking and the sound of rain", reviews of competitors products, helping newbies get started, ongoing discussions on the fine art of packing and its associated fads (are we rubbing out or stuffing flakes whole this week?), or any of the other things that are part of what ASP is all about.  We are hobbyists, not business people; and while there is a hard, factual side to ASP, it is not simply a clearing house for relevant information, it is a celebration of pipes and pipesmoking.

On the flip side, I'm not sure ASP is really interested in what industry insiders could bring to the table, either.  Yes, we enjoy talking to craftsmen and retailers as *people* who have a different viewpoint on our hobby, but normally only insofar as they themselves are hobbyists.  We enjoy updates from GLP and MT's Today's Work (and others) as a way to window shop--or just plain shop--but mostly we value our business people for what they do outside of business:  their long experience as smokers, and the personal insight they bring to threads from haikus to fly fishing.  We certainly take an interest in their products, but we value them as people, too.  ASP is really not the place for in-depth discussions of market forces, lessons in the economics of the estate market, etc.  Sure, many of us (myself included) are interested in the news, primarily as trivia, sometimes as advance warning of impending doom or hopeful expectation, but ASP's interest pretty much ends there.  Even in the recent "business" threads, what we were concerned with (as we should be) was the smoker's end, and a quick answer to some idle wonderments about the business end.  Even in the SG thread, there was some purely academic interest in the real economic situation in Zimbabwe (was it product shortage or hoarding?), but a consensus was very quickly reached that very few people cared about the economic reality, because the effect on SG's supply line was the same either way.  The real issue was not a sincere interest in SG's business model, but an interest in product availability.

Bottom line:  we, as a group, are interested in qualitative and subjective  discussions related to improving the smoking experience, and we are only tangentially interested in the business side of smoking (if, indeed the business side really has anything to do with smoking as such at all), so far as it impacts our enjoyment of our hobby and furthers our sensual pleasure in "drinking smoke".

Mark Tinsky

For a lot of people in the pipe business, pipes and tobac are a business and after working at it all day who wants to get on the computer and relax and talk about work?

Asp is for collectors, hobbyists and pipe & tobac nuts. I think that's are most common thread. I think it s fine the way it is.  I think many of the people in the tobac biz who do participate enjoy taking off their  suits and find a lot of  why they got into pipes and tobac in the first place when the read and participate in ASP.

If we don't exactly get the story right on tobac in Africa or who's going to be the new distributor for  Winslow, or Dunhill's new PPD program, does it really matter that much? We seem to muddle on and as long as we keep in perspective what's most important, our common love of pipes and tobac, things will work themselves out.....

Mingkahuna

A further thought.  I really don't think that we can expect people in the business to come to ASP and only talk shop.  In fact, as Mark pointed out, after a long day shop talk may be the last thing that they would want to engage in.  I suspect that they'd talk about the same enjoyment of the pipe that we talk about. And good grief, why wouldn't they have the inclination to talk about pipe smoking and rain?  Just because they are in the business doesn't mean that they enjoy the pipe any less or that they enjoy the pipe in a different way.

No, I wouldn't expect business people's participation to be mostly in the form of shop talk, but if the topic did come up they'd have plenty of valuable insights to add. Okay, so such a post may not be every one's cup of tea, but that's the way that it is with newsgroups.  You move onto the next thread.

And, doing what they do, business people know much about different pipe makers, nomnecalture and recent pipe history. This is useful information.  I disagree that ASP isn't in large part about the exchange of information.  That is a major component of the newsgroup just as is the social component. I suspect many lurkers who chose not to engage directly in the social aspects are hear just for that: information.

But to say that ASP is only for collectors and pipe smokers or for improving the pipe smoking experience is arguably somewhat shortsighted and exclusionary. There are many threads that I am only tangentially interested in but I accept that they have the right to be a part of ASP. But, that's just the way that I see it.

Mingkahuna

Just one last thought and I'll leave this thread alone.  From some I seem to be hearing something that amounts to "I think that ASP is for ______ so, ________ shouldn't be discussed."  In this case insert the word "hobbyists" and "business." I think that one must distinguish between what one person's preference is and discussing what is a proper topic for discussion. That the business end of pipes is a desirable topic for some and not for others is clear.  Many enjoyed the Brick and Mortar thread, and ones like it, and have said so.  Others obviously found it of little interest.  BUT, just because one doesn't find a particular thread to be of interest doesn't make it an improper topic.  Just because it involves the business aspect of the hobby (note those previous word "business aspect of the hobby") doesn't make it any less proper than any other thread.  And good heavens, if we can't occasionally discuss business related things, what of "OT.

Finally, that some can't see that it would be beneficial for ASP to work to include some of the business people is amazing to me.  These people live, eat and breath pipes.  Don't you suppose that they may know a thing or two about the topic (way beyond the strictly business aspect)and  that their contributions could make ASP a richer forum?

Gregory Pease

Most of the people I know in the business end of things are in it for the LOVE of pipes and tobacco, not for the money. I really don't know anyone who is getting rich in this business, and I know a lot of the so-called big players personally. A good friend of mine, one of the more successful retailers, once said to me, "Anyone who thinks they're going to get rich in this business needs to think about doing something else."

Ain't it the truth.

I live, breathe, eat, sleep pipes and tobaccos. Sure, I have other interests, other hobbies, other loves. But this is both my business and my passion. I can't really imagine a better line of "work." I made boatloads more money as a computer scientist, but I'm boatloads happier now. My life has become simpler, in many ways. I don't dread going into the office. I LOVE to talk about "work," which is pipes and tobacco. I can do it all day long, and then do it some more. Most of the people I know in the business feel this way.

We're in a unique position in that the line between business and hobby is quite fuzzy for some of us. It's been my hobby for 21 years, and my business for a bit over three. And, still, it's both. If it ever becomes just a job for me, I'll probably go on to do something else.

Personally, I enjoy most of the topics that come up for discussion. I do not enjoy the flamefests, but they're easy enough to ignore. I enjoy the technical discussions about pipe making, about smoking. I enjoy reading the responses to the newcomer's post asking about "how to keep their pipe lit." Hell, after 21 years of smoking, I find myself often wanting to ask that question myself. I've gotten some pretty good tips here...

I like the discussions of marketing, because they teach us about becoming smarter consumers. I like the talk about smoking in the rain, because they remind us of the joys of being a pipe smoker. I like the posts about a man and his dog, because they remind us what it is to be human. And, I appreciate that some among us share some of the joys and tragedies of their lives, because it reminds us that we are all just folks here.

ASP is, for better or worse, an example of democracy in action. It's not anything beyond what the GROUP makes it. I've always said, if you don't like what's being posted, post what you like - within guidelines, of course. There's more than enough intresting stuff here to keep me entertained in idle moments. I guess I'm just willing to go along with the ebb and flow...

I'm rambling...sorry.

I just think that ASP is, and should remain, the sum total of what its members make it, not an abstract structure to be imposed upon the participants.

Basta. Back to work.

Freddy Vegas

CHOOSING SIDES

I was not my intention to see lines being drawn and sides being taken. I do however have tremendous respect for those that defended me, send emails and calls of support and Especially those who took the time to figure out where is was coming from and my point of view in the matter which I explained above. I don't however want to be the cause of anyone's choice not to do business with someone over my personal beefs ... it's tough enough to put food on the table in this business/hobby without that type of stuff going on. But like Khan (Richardo) said in the original Star Trek "Do it because that is what you wish to do".

CIVILITY AND SENSITIVITY

That's been a bit of a battle cry I see. Civility is relative at best. What exactly is it and why? The funny paradox of civility is the emails I've received stating that "They hope I go out of business" coming from some of the same people who are saying we should be nothing less than civil as pipe smokers in this NG. Strange right. That's not so civil. Does civility mean never show emotion, never defend one's self or one's point of view, never defend each other, suppress the passions of life that make us who we are ... What is civility? Is it to don our elbow patched sport coats, be pretentious, only engage in  pseudo intellectual conversations and pursuits while holding the door for Ladies and feeling or saying nothing when they don't say thank you ... I hope not. Am I the only one here who rents R rated movies and yells "Get him ... get him" during Rambo movies. Am I the only one who in some twisted way who envisions themselves as part of Tony Soprano's crew? Let's be real ... we are what we are and them some. Pipe smokers are some of the most passionate people is the world. While saying "DUNHILL SUX" might not end up in a street brawl it will end a relationship ... get my point. How 'bout "real men don't smoke aromatics". Everyone has a button and we all react the same when it's pushed ... civility goes right out the window. Let's not kid ourselves and try to live up to some story book perception of a pipe smoker. Let's just be who we are ... people with a common thread. Christ ... even Christ flipped him a few tables when he got pissed off. I say this not to stir things up but as a reality check. I hope being civil doesn't mean we have to be pussies. (excuse the Frenchie). Maybe my background was that of a different world but yesterday was a discussion to me ... sorta the norm from where I grew up. Someone would say something and a well thought through response would be F you A-hole which prompted the response F you too and the horse you rode in on. Civility in NYC is not wackin someone for dinging your car door with theirs. Compared to the other NGs out there we are very tame ... even yesterday. I say this not as an excuse but again as a reality check. Take it from someone stabbed twice by the age of 21 ... we're a very civil bunch in spite of our fights. Let's not be pompous and pretentious OK. Maybe the above statements rub some the wrong way or show my perceived lack of culture or maybe they expose the sheltered lives we might choose to live ... either way I still think this is a very Civil place. Love me, Hate me but I can pack a mean box. Which brings me to my next point .........

THE MEANING OF ASP ... to me anyway.

I like ASP and the 2 years I've been here because to me it is like a getaway from the daily hassles of doing business. I usually have it open while I'm working on my sites or emailing ... whatever. I have a feeling that others do the same. When I'm bored or feel like some interaction I pull you guys up and see what's goin on. Maybe that's where the Civility issue comes in. Maybe ASP is an escape where we don't want any hassles ... a utopia so to speak ... bit it's kind of unrealistic to a certain degree. Yes we should not come dragging the problems of our day or the world with is but we can't help coming here thinking we are among friends ... because we are. There are times when I do post like "someone in the biz" ... take for instance tomorrow when I post the winners of the Jackpot Giveaway :). But mostly to BS with my buds.

As for who posts and why .... manufacturers, distributors, Brick and Mortar guys, eCommerce guys, those that are both, Hobby sellers and pure hobbyists all have a home here. Unfortunately there are rifts among the different groups and for valid reason at times ... there always will be. No one want to hears that the product they slaved over and gave birth to "sucks" (which is rather a ridiculous statement that doesn't account for different tastes AND does cause financial lose). B & M guys think e-guys are ruining the pipe biz. Both think that manufacturers, wholesalers, vendors and makers that sell to them AND the public through websites, mail order and shows are devious, greedy and underhanded. Both agree that anyone who sells to JR robs food from there table. They also think Hobby Sellers have made it even harder to make the meager living they are accustomed to. Hobby sellers think they should get a life because it's free to all to do as they please. Hobbyists want the best possible price ... who can blame them, so do I ... and will shop accordingly. The byproduct is fewer people getting involved in the high hour/low pay biz ... even out of love for it ... and more places going under. We, myself included, are genetically programmed to eliminate the middleman and the biz people knows and feels this. "What do I do now ... McDonalds?" must enter their minds especially for the generational businesses. I know for a fact that there are some pipers that even resent people actually making a living from "Their" hobby. Each fraction has their own point of view and it can be fierce about it when it comes to feeding their families and their respective futures. Most people in the biz end of the biz stay away because after posting they get flooded with 100s of emails asking "when do you think my pipe was made" questions. Sort of like "Ask Chuck" in P& T stated this month. That's why thing get tricky when things other than the pure love of pipes and tobacco are discussed. Some people, in any respective group, just bow out if they don't want to deal with it. To each his or her own but I think it's a very personal decision that is made by the individual not by the group as a whole. I've been though lots of stuff on ASP ... good, bad and ugly ... but I make a individual choice to stay. No one can influence me to stay or go ... that's my choice. No one can make up anyone else's mind. So if someone doesn't want to come then don't come ... if someone wants to leave then leave ... if someone wants to stay then stay ... no one made you do either or all ... you "Do it because that it want you wish to do".

As for me ... I choose to stay.

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