I would just like to state why I agreed to discuss this topic with you and to present my views concerning Hate Crime Laws. I'm not here to dispararage or criticize anyone for their beliefs. We all form our opinions through our own personal experiences and what we learn from others; be it in school or from the media, or from other private sources. Sometimes we get bad information or we might misinterpret what we do hear. I try to keep an open mind in any discussion and learn whatever I can even if it doesn't persuade me to change my mind. It may give me an insight as to why other people believe as they do.
As our discussion progresses I'll go into more detail and give examples and sources for verification of the information I use.
My main objections to HCLs are very basic. 1.They are unfair and violate the 14th amendment of the Costitution, which guarantees equal protection under the law. 2.They accomplish very little in the punishing or deterring of criminal actions, just as the death penalty doesn't deter homicides in the states that have a death penalty. 3.They are designed to punish thoughts more so than actions, and 4.They single out groups of people, especially the gay community, and put them in the limelight for the anti-gay bigots and homophobes to use as targets of their hatred once again.
We can discuss them in any order and for any length of time it takes to show how damaging these laws are, and to lay out the facts for everyone to see, so they can decide for themselves if that is how they want their country to be run.
Replies:
- I'm looking forward to reading the opinions expressed on this subject. Welcome. (NT) -- Sergio, 16:07:15 06/10/03 Tue
- For those of us not cognizant of things more recent than 1650 would you please post the 14th Amendment? -- Kris, 20:09:02 06/10/03 Tue
So far I am with you on your logic but...
*looks around* WHAT?! I never said I was a modern historian...- 14th Amendment Section1 -- John, 23:55:34 06/10/03 Tue
My concern is with section 1 which states the equal protection clause. I read it to mean equal protection for all, be they the victim or the perpetrator of a crime. No special treatment for any individual for any reason. I know there are those who like to distort and re-interpret the Constitution, but I take it at face value. Therefore I believe all criminals should be treated equally and get the same punishment. If you remember from history classes, we already went thru a period where the perpetrators of a crime were treated more harshly. Those days are known as the Jim Crow days. Black on white crimes were treated differently than the same crime committed by a white. Many times the punishment for the black was lynching where as the white person committing the same type crime got a much lighter punishment. Is this what we want to return to? I personally don't. It may sound good today for some, but what happens when there is a shift in power in 10 or 20 or more years and the new power structure wants to impose it's definition of a hate crime?
AMENDMENT XIV
Passed by Congress June 13, 1866. Ratified July 9, 1868.
Note: Article I, section 2, of the Constitution was modified by section 2 of the 14th amendment.
Section 1.
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Section 2.
Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice-President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age,* and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.
Section 3.
No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice-President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.
Section 4.
The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.
Section 5.
The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
- 14th Amendment Section1 -- John, 23:55:34 06/10/03 Tue
- I'm not a spokesperson. I'm not someone to argue with anyone. I know that I am not articulate, or educated, or informed enough to debate this with you. I'll leave that to Lance but I have very intense feelings about this issue. -- Chris, 00:56:24 06/11/03 Wed
At my high school, we talked about it this past year and everyone in our GSA fully supports a Federal Hate Crime Law. Everyone. I know that what a bunch of gay and lesbian high school students want probablly is the least important thing for the Bush administration to even consider. In fact if they knew we wanted it they would make sure it never happens. I can't argue and debate and win anyone over and I'm not trying to change anyone elses mind. I'm not asking anyone to respond to this and try to argue with me or change my mind either.
Because in my heart, in my gut, in everything that I am, I know we deserve to have a Federal Hate Crime Law that includes sexual orientation. People need to know that our government recognizes that we are targeted for crime just because we are gay and that our government says it's not alright to harass and beat and kill us.
This has to stop.
::hugs everyone::
Matthew Shepard's mother has spoken out in support of having a Federal Hate Crime Law on MTV. That's enough for me. That's all I have to say. Thank you for reading this.
- Ditto to your subject -- Trevor/TJ, 01:14:14 06/11/03 Wed
In reply to: Chris 's message, "I'm not a spokesperson. I'm not someone to argue with anyone. I know that I am not articulate, or educated, or informed enough to debate this with you. I'll leave that to Lance but I have very intense feelings about this issue." on 00:56:24 06/11/03 Wed
I have very mixed feelings about this. I understand and agree that the reason for a crime - the criminal's rationale - should not really determine the punishment. It is arbitrary and impossible to prove, and mostly irrelevant. A hazing is a hazing, a murder is a murder. A bunch of bigots who go looking for someone to murder SHOULD be found guilty of premeditated murder.
But, judges do give leniency to someone who is partially justified in their illegal actions, and this is simply the other side of the that coin.
To be fair, if we are going to have hate crime laws, they must include all types of hate, all minorities - but where do you draw the line? Short people? Redheads?
Generally, I disagree with "band aid" laws that someone wrote to fix one specific problem or in retaliation for one specific incident. Too often - like that (hmm?) law that music industry copyright law that prevents you from taking your X box apart or writing programs for it - clueless people write laws without understanding the widespread issues (e.g. technology) or ramifications. In Washington state, some idiot passed a measure for "$35 auto license tabs" which turns out is unconstitutional and full of loopholes and has cut funding out of schools and public transportation. Turns out he was dirty and the ballot pushers aren't even legally obligated to tell people the truth about what they are signing AND get paid per signature collected.
Well, I have no answers, just questions. I sure hope you guys straighten out the world for us a bit!
- Excuse me? You totally lost me with this post. Redheads? License plates? I'm not trying to be rude, and if I come across that way, please accept my apology, but I don't understand what any of that has to do with the sentiment expressed in Chris's heartfelt post? It seems to trivialize his feelings. (NT) -- Tom, 01:49:33 06/11/03 Wed
- I agree with Tom. Whether or not you support Hate Crime Legislation, to throw out something like why not have laws to protect short people or redheads beneath a post that includes a picture of Matthew Shepard really offends me. When you think of the list of gay people, the list of black people, the millions of Jews, who have died because of hate, to joke about short people and redheads being equally persecuted? I'm sorry but it just seems like a very insensitive thing to say. (NT) -- Pepper, 02:23:37 06/11/03 Wed
- I'm sure Trevor meant no offense to anyone. He's a real sweet heart and would never intentionally offend or insult anyone on this board and I'm sure he was as moved by Chris's post and Matthew Shepard's picture, as I was. *hugs everyone* I know that hate crimes are a difficult and emotional issue but lets all do the best we can and maybe we'll all learn something. (NT) -- Lance, 04:56:59 06/11/03 Wed
- Trevor was not making a joke. He was simply saying as you draw lines between us and them the area between lines gets smaller and smaller. And pretty soon even redheads become a minority of their own. -- Kris, 11:08:57 06/11/03 Wed
In reply to: Lance's message, "I'm sure Trevor meant no offense to anyone. He's a real sweet heart and would never intentionally offend or insult anyone on this board and I'm sure he was as moved by Chris's post and Matthew Shepard's picture, as I was. *hugs everyone* I know that hate crimes are a difficult and emotional issue but lets all do the best we can and maybe we'll all learn something." on 04:56:59 06/11/03 Wed
I see this everyday. I work with handicapped children. While I applaud the extra effort the school makes with them I wish that my non handicapped child could get some of that largesse as well. This is what Trevor is trying to point out. Dividing an issue into us vs them, which I think is where John is coming from, doesn't tend make the problem heal any faster. It only singles out who "we" are and who "they" are.
Murder is already illegal so writing a law that says murdering a gay man/lesbian/any other minority is extra wrong is just ridiculous and a waste of paper. Hate crime legislation WON'T stop hate crimes kids.. any more than the death penalty stops murder. Where the effort needs to be improved in my humble opinion is in the enforcement and prosecution end of the spectrum. Not to make light of Matt Shepard but murder WAS ALREADY against the law in Wyoming. A Hate Crimes Law would not have changed that one bit. People who kill feel that they are in the right and are justified in doing so. They dont care that its illegal.. because the law was written for OTHER people not them.
Better enforcement and better education... but its just easier to ignore problems than work to solve them.
- If you look at the FBI's statistics on hate crimes you will see that certain very pronounced groups of minorities experience the majority of hate crimes in this country -- Sergio, 12:48:02 06/11/03 Wed
In reply to: Kris 's message, "Trevor was not making a joke. He was simply saying as you draw lines between us and them the area between lines gets smaller and smaller. And pretty soon even redheads become a minority of their own." on 11:08:57 06/11/03 Wed
So it's pretty clear cut where to "draw the line." For our government to offer hate crime laws to every minority except gays, is the real issue. Trevor jokes about people with red hair and short people needing the same protection as minorities such as gays, but the FBI crime statistics don't support this.
Blacks, Jews, and Gays experience a much higher percentage of hate crimes than the general population. When you take into consideration the fact that these minorites represent a much smaller segment of the general population, you start to see that the amount of hate crimes we experience are way out of proportion for what they should be.
Should Hate Crime Laws which already protect minorities such as Blacks and Jews be repealed? Will that really level the playing field for the red heads and the short people? Of course not.
I think everyone on this board would agree that enforcement and education would be great when (and if) they ever take effect but in the meantime people are dying out here while we wait for how long, a decade or two or 10?
Apathetic (and homophobic) police all over America turn a blind eye to gay crime victims (and not specifically murder, but other hate crimes as well) because there isn't a Federal Law to force them to do their jobs according to a nationwide uniform standard procedure.
If you want better law enforcement pass a Federal Hate Crime Law and you will have it. Education is another issue for another discussion at another time.
Speaking on a personal note, I am a pretty tiny guy. I've had my share of harrassment and I've seen the total lack of enforcement from the police. I've had friends who attacked, beaten, and their complaints were ignored. If we had a Federal Hate Crime Law, and the police responded in this manner, the FBI would step in and take over the case. My friends wouldn't have to live in fear, knowing that the people who did this to them, are walking the streets with the blessing of the police dept.
Would I feel safer with a Hate Crime Law. Yes. Would it take away anything from your life if we had one? No, I don't think so. Correct me if I am wrong.
When I read about matthew shepard its impossible not to think, "that could have been me." Because it could have.
- If you look at the FBI's statistics on hate crimes you will see that certain very pronounced groups of minorities experience the majority of hate crimes in this country -- Sergio, 12:48:02 06/11/03 Wed
- Trevor was not making a joke. He was simply saying as you draw lines between us and them the area between lines gets smaller and smaller. And pretty soon even redheads become a minority of their own. -- Kris, 11:08:57 06/11/03 Wed
- Sorry if I phrased it poorly -- Trevor/TJ, 12:25:32 06/11/03 Wed
In reply to: Pepper 's message, "I agree with Tom. Whether or not you support Hate Crime Legislation, to throw out something like why not have laws to protect short people or redheads beneath a post that includes a picture of Matthew Shepard really offends me. When you think of the list of gay people, the list of black people, the millions of Jews, who have died because of hate, to joke about short people and redheads being equally persecuted? I'm sorry but it just seems like a very insensitive thing to say." on 02:23:37 06/11/03 Wed
Bester expressed most of my feelings, including his last paragraph, much better than I did, so feel free to ignore my blather and read his (non-blather.)
I am certainly moved and disturbed by the death of Matthew Shepard. Bashing and teen suicide are WHY I'm making some tough choices in my personal life right now rather than just going with the flow, and to a large degree why I am participating here.
My point about band-aid laws is they fix a symptom of a problem, not the problem itself. The license tabs was an example - one particular symptom was fixed without looking at the whole "system". Granted, "fixing" biogotry in society is not trivial, and passing these laws would be much easier.
My point with redheads and short people was not a joke - they are minorities and I'm sure there are bigots who bash them, too, somewhere. Yes, I certainly realize they are not generally persecuted to the extent of gays and jews and other minorities - but where do we draw the line? (Okay, yes, I AM anal retentive!)
Maybe I'm overly idealistic, but laws should truly be fair to everyone - that's the basis of our consitution of the US. If hate crimes laws, by necessity, single out groups, I can see how they *could be considered* to protect "special interest groups."
I know, I know, we (minorities) only want fair and equal treatment, not "special treatment." But, by naming certain groups, I can see how some resonable, if uninformed individuals (which I think many voters are - reasonable yet uninformed - including myself, but hey I'm workin' on it!) could consider this to be "special interest" even though that's not the intent, purpose, or effect.
So, if we DO have "hate crime laws", I think we need to define Hate Crimes without mentioning any SPECIFIC minorities and I don't know if that can be done without being vague to the point of uselessness.
- I'm sure Trevor meant no offense to anyone. He's a real sweet heart and would never intentionally offend or insult anyone on this board and I'm sure he was as moved by Chris's post and Matthew Shepard's picture, as I was. *hugs everyone* I know that hate crimes are a difficult and emotional issue but lets all do the best we can and maybe we'll all learn something. (NT) -- Lance, 04:56:59 06/11/03 Wed
- I agree with Tom. Whether or not you support Hate Crime Legislation, to throw out something like why not have laws to protect short people or redheads beneath a post that includes a picture of Matthew Shepard really offends me. When you think of the list of gay people, the list of black people, the millions of Jews, who have died because of hate, to joke about short people and redheads being equally persecuted? I'm sorry but it just seems like a very insensitive thing to say. (NT) -- Pepper, 02:23:37 06/11/03 Wed
- Excuse me? You totally lost me with this post. Redheads? License plates? I'm not trying to be rude, and if I come across that way, please accept my apology, but I don't understand what any of that has to do with the sentiment expressed in Chris's heartfelt post? It seems to trivialize his feelings. (NT) -- Tom, 01:49:33 06/11/03 Wed
- ::hugs you back:: You and all the kids on here have my utmost respect. I want to say "Thanks" to every one of you. You're all heros in my book. (NT) -- Tom, 01:56:12 06/11/03 Wed
- They should abolish HCL completely -- Khadgar, 15:11:31 06/15/03 Sun
In reply to: Chris 's message, "I'm not a spokesperson. I'm not someone to argue with anyone. I know that I am not articulate, or educated, or informed enough to debate this with you. I'll leave that to Lance but I have very intense feelings about this issue." on 00:56:24 06/11/03 Wed
They're extremely unfair to anyone who's not a minority. It creates a special class of citizens.
Yeah, we benefit from this particular unfair law, but what about all the unfair laws that harm us? How can we lobby against them when we've got some in our favor? You can't demand equality and then say you want a little something extra. That's not equal.
- "special rights"? Do you consider all civil rights laws regarding sexual orientation as "special rights" or is it just the HCL? What about marriage? What about equal employment opportunity laws? I'm just trying to figure out where you're coming from on this, and why it's in response to a high school kid who mourns Matthew Shepard and said he wasn't debating, he was just telling us how the kids at his school feel about it. Please enlighten me. (NT) -- Lance, 23:57:25 06/15/03 Sun
- Question -- Khadgar, 11:23:43 06/16/03 Mon
In reply to: Lance 's message, ""special rights"? Do you consider all civil rights laws regarding sexual orientation as "special rights" or is it just the HCL? What about marriage? What about equal employment opportunity laws? I'm just trying to figure out where you're coming from on this, and why it's in response to a high school kid who mourns Matthew Shepard and said he wasn't debating, he was just telling us how the kids at his school feel about it. Please enlighten me." on 23:57:25 06/15/03 Sun
You put special rights in quotation, as if I'd used those words. If you'll take a moment to read you'll note I did not. Of course if you'd read my post you wouldn't of posted that particular response.
- Question -- Khadgar, 11:23:43 06/16/03 Mon
- and just who are HCL unfair to? The point of HCL's is to make sure current laws are enforced, that prejudice and hatred does not cloud or impede the investigation or prosecution of crimes that have been committed against minorities. Such laws exist to protect other minorities (ie African Americans, immigrants, Jews and other minority religions among others) and none of them have created a "special class" of citizens or violated anyone's Constitutional rights.... -- Drew Greyfox, 14:18:59 06/16/03 Mon
In reply to: Khadgar 's message, "They should abolish HCL completely" on 15:11:31 06/15/03 Sun
...The recurring special rights argument holds no water whatsoever because it is completely false.
- Again, no one reads -- Khadgar, 16:44:02 06/16/03 Mon
In reply to: Drew Greyfox 's message, "and just who are HCL unfair to? The point of HCL's is to make sure current laws are enforced, that prejudice and hatred does not cloud or impede the investigation or prosecution of crimes that have been committed against minorities. Such laws exist to protect other minorities (ie African Americans, immigrants, Jews and other minority religions among others) and none of them have created a "special class" of citizens or violated anyone's Constitutional rights...." on 14:18:59 06/16/03 Mon
Where have I EVER said special rights? Current laws are already enforced. There's no rational reason to add new ones.
Are you people all just parroting Lance or what?
- I did read, you said they create a "special class" of people, which is basically synonymous with "special rights"...and you did not answer my question, nor have you offered any facts or proof to back up any of your comments.... -- Drew Greyfox, 12:19:04 06/17/03 Tue
In reply to: Khadgar 's message, "Again, no one reads" on 16:44:02 06/16/03 Mon
FACT: In many cases current laws are not enforced or crimes not investigated because of anti-gay prejudice. Two cases immediately come to mind, both in Colorado I believe. One, a teenage boy was beaten and thrown down the rocky hillside of a road resulting in injuries such as a fractured skull, broken ribs and a bruise in the shape of a 2x4 across his abdomen. A doctor who examined him said the injuries were consistent with an assualt, and the teen even gave the police the names of his attackers. Instead the police said he was drunk and fell and would not investigate it as a crime.
The second case involved a young lesbian who was attacked by two straight men who carved anti-gay words into her skin with a knife. Upon reporting the assault to police, the police accused her of making the whole thing up and inflicting the wounds on herself! It made some news for a time but I never did find out if the police were ever forced to investigate the crime or did anything about it.
And these are only two cases that made headlines in the gay press that happen to come to mind. There are more, and no doubt there are many more we never hear of because they do not come to the attention of the press.
Once again, your argument that current laws are being enforced does not hold water, while you have presented NO facts to back up your claims. Is that why you have to keep repeating that nobody is reading what you say or that we are all parrots?
- I did read, you said they create a "special class" of people, which is basically synonymous with "special rights"...and you did not answer my question, nor have you offered any facts or proof to back up any of your comments.... -- Drew Greyfox, 12:19:04 06/17/03 Tue
- Again, no one reads -- Khadgar, 16:44:02 06/16/03 Mon
- "special rights"? Do you consider all civil rights laws regarding sexual orientation as "special rights" or is it just the HCL? What about marriage? What about equal employment opportunity laws? I'm just trying to figure out where you're coming from on this, and why it's in response to a high school kid who mourns Matthew Shepard and said he wasn't debating, he was just telling us how the kids at his school feel about it. Please enlighten me. (NT) -- Lance, 23:57:25 06/15/03 Sun
- And by the way -- Khadgar, 15:24:11 06/15/03 Sun
In reply to: Chris 's message, "I'm not a spokesperson. I'm not someone to argue with anyone. I know that I am not articulate, or educated, or informed enough to debate this with you. I'll leave that to Lance but I have very intense feelings about this issue." on 00:56:24 06/11/03 Wed
If you're not even open to the possibility that someone can change your views on a subject, what's the point of even discussing it?
The second you start to believe only your viewpoint is the only correct one is the second you stop learning.
- Are you addressing this to Chris? (NT) -- Lance, 23:48:33 06/15/03 Sun
- Chris, or -- Khadgar, 11:19:37 06/16/03 Mon
Just about anyone who buries their head in the sand ignoring rational arguments hell bent upon believing that they can in no way be wrong.
- I am very sorry if I gave that impression. I was expressing my personal opinion about a Federal Hate Crime Law issue. I was not making a pesonal attack on anyone. I don't do that. (NT) -- Chris, 12:44:41 06/16/03 Mon
- Uh huh.. -- Khadgar, 12:53:04 06/16/03 Mon
In reply to: Chris 's message, "I am very sorry if I gave that impression. I was expressing my personal opinion about a Federal Hate Crime Law issue. I was not making a pesonal attack on anyone. I don't do that." on 12:44:41 06/16/03 Mon
So is it customary on this board to ignore completely what you're replying to and just toss in random bits?
- The core mission of this MB is serious gay activism. It is primarily a tool to disseminate information regarding gay rights issues. Further rudeness and/or personal comments from you are unwelcome and will be removed at the discretion of the board administrator. (NT) -- Sergio, 13:57:11 06/16/03 Mon
- Interesting -- Khadgar, 14:11:06 06/16/03 Mon
In reply to: Sergio 's message, "The core mission of this MB is serious gay activism. It is primarily a tool to disseminate information regarding gay rights issues. Further rudeness and/or personal comments from you are unwelcome and will be removed at the discretion of the board administrator." on 13:57:11 06/16/03 Mon
You didn't answer the question.
- By the way -- Khadgar, 15:11:20 06/16/03 Mon
In reply to: Khadgar 's message, "Interesting" on 14:11:06 06/16/03 Mon
Khadgar,
While your opinions about Hate Crime Laws are most welcomed on Crzy House, your rudeness is not.
If you can't state an intelligent opinion without insults then don't bother posting.
Further rudeness and/or personal comments from you are unwelcome and will result in your posts being removed at my discretion. Be polite.
Sergio
Board Administrator.
I'd really appreciate a link to any post I've made that is in any way a personal attack or insult to any poster here.
- Hmm... if I may weigh in here, I don't think you quite appreciate whats going on here, Khadgar (more) -- Bester, 16:33:31 06/16/03 Mon
In reply to: Khadgar 's message, "By the way" on 15:11:20 06/16/03 Mon
For a start, I don't see any direct personal attacks in what you wrote. I'll say that now. I'd also say, though, that accusing someone of burying their head in the sand and that they're incapable of comprehending rational arguments IS pretty damn offensive.
Second, look at the time stamp. Chris was one of the first posts on this topic. There had been very few posts on either side before his one. So he was performing an important rule in kicking off discussion.
Third, of course most people arent gonna change their opinion! Look how firmly held most of the views expressed in these posts are! Lance or Chris or Pepper is not gonna convince me that HCLs will be super effective, and I'm not gonna convince them that they won't work. As was SAID in the header to the debate, the point is educative, so people who HAVENT made up their mind.
Fourth, you don't know Chris. For a start, hes in highschool, and its kinda harsh to be so aggressive towards someone who's still in highschool. He also started the GSA at his school, at the risk of being at least assumed gay by everyone in the school, and all the danger that that could involve. Hes a brave, caring guy, and while I'm on the other side of this debate I would never address him in such an aggressive, disrespectful manner.
Well, there's my bit. Please play nice.
- Minor correction -- Khadgar, 17:03:41 06/16/03 Mon
In reply to: Bester 's message, "Hmm... if I may weigh in here, I don't think you quite appreciate whats going on here, Khadgar (more)" on 16:33:31 06/16/03 Mon
For a start, I don't see any direct personal attacks in what you wrote. I'll say that now. I'd also say, though, that accusing someone of burying their head in the sand and that they're incapable of comprehending rational arguments IS pretty damn offensive.
At no point did I ever accuse anyone of being incapable of comprehending rational argument. Unwilling yes, though that was mostly impllied, but never did I say incapable.
- Indeed, a minor correction. Lol one could almost say inconsequential. You didnt at all adress the substance of what I said. Semantics much? (NT) -- Bester, 17:38:41 06/16/03 Mon
- Ah, you were expecting an argument? -- Khadgar, 18:05:27 06/16/03 Mon
In reply to: Bester 's message, "Indeed, a minor correction. Lol one could almost say inconsequential. You didnt at all adress the substance of what I said. Semantics much?" on 17:38:41 06/16/03 Mon
Well I don't argue with everyone, and I agree with most of what you wrote, although I stand by my conviction that opinions should always be open to change. Though that sounds incredibly ironic.
- Ah, you were expecting an argument? -- Khadgar, 18:05:27 06/16/03 Mon
- Indeed, a minor correction. Lol one could almost say inconsequential. You didnt at all adress the substance of what I said. Semantics much? (NT) -- Bester, 17:38:41 06/16/03 Mon
- Minor correction -- Khadgar, 17:03:41 06/16/03 Mon
- Hmm... if I may weigh in here, I don't think you quite appreciate whats going on here, Khadgar (more) -- Bester, 16:33:31 06/16/03 Mon
- By the way -- Khadgar, 15:11:20 06/16/03 Mon
- I personally fail to see rudeness or personal insults in Khadgar's posts -- The Wolf, 16:37:49 06/16/03 Mon
In reply to: Sergio 's message, "The core mission of this MB is serious gay activism. It is primarily a tool to disseminate information regarding gay rights issues. Further rudeness and/or personal comments from you are unwelcome and will be removed at the discretion of the board administrator." on 13:57:11 06/16/03 Mon
On the other side, I think it would be rude to delete his (or anyone else's) posts and thus silencing his opinion in this discussion!
- Interesting -- Khadgar, 14:11:06 06/16/03 Mon
- The core mission of this MB is serious gay activism. It is primarily a tool to disseminate information regarding gay rights issues. Further rudeness and/or personal comments from you are unwelcome and will be removed at the discretion of the board administrator. (NT) -- Sergio, 13:57:11 06/16/03 Mon
- Uh huh.. -- Khadgar, 12:53:04 06/16/03 Mon
- Much like you? That’s the rude comment Sergio was talking about aside from your rude demeanor in every post you have made. It’s interesting that because Chris does not agree with you, his head is buried in the sand. I guess that makes you the authority on constitutional law? (NT) -- Mitchell, 16:32:28 06/16/03 Mon
In reply to: Khadgar 's message, "Chris, or" on 11:19:37 06/16/03 Mon
- Stunning -- Khadgar, 16:58:12 06/16/03 Mon
In reply to: Mitchell 's message, "Much like you? That’s the rude comment Sergio was talking about aside from your rude demeanor in every post you have made. It’s interesting that because Chris does not agree with you, his head is buried in the sand. I guess that makes you the authority on constitutional law?" on 16:32:28 06/16/03 Mon
Are you intentionally not reading? Or is the constant misinterpretation of the opposition posts some form of argument?
Well at any rate I'll use smaller words.
I-f
y-o-u
a-r-e
n-o-t
w-i-l-l-i-n-g
t-o
a-c-c-e-p-t
t-h-e
p-o-s-s-i-b-i-l-i-t-y
y-o-u
m-a-y
b-e
w-r-o-n-g
y-o-u
a-r-e
n-o-t
r-e-a-d-y
f-o-r
l-o-g-i-c-a-l
d-e-b-a-t-e.
Did I go slow enough for you? Small enough words that you can't read that wrong?
Oh, and for those who are a might confused. That'd be rude, sarcastic too.
My initial post on this vein didn't belittle anyone, merely stated fact. Now ya'll make treat Chris with velvet gloves, question being why? He's capable of communicating on an adult level. It's more than a bit condecending for you to presume otherwise.
Well, I won't deign to address Chris again.
- man, I can't believe this. {{{hugs chris}}} chris, ur my hero n i luv u (NT) -- -- :*~*:. .:*~*:. ..:*~*:. . { JASON } . .:*~*:. .:*~*:. :*~*:., 17:21:21 06/16/03 Mon
- **hugs 4 chris** (NT) -- sean, 17:26:40 06/16/03 Mon
- ::group hug 4 chris:: (NT) -- andy, 17:58:08 06/16/03 Mon
- Stick to the substance. Sarcastic bitchiness and ad hominem arguments add nothing to any debate. Be civilised. (NT) -- Bester, 17:41:51 06/16/03 Mon
In reply to: Khadgar 's message, "Stunning" on 16:58:12 06/16/03 Mon
- chris ur the bravest guy i know n a hero 2 all of us {{{{{{{{{chris}}}}}}}}}}}}} (NT) -- jake, 17:43:32 06/16/03 Mon
- Here's a hug from me too. I think not only Chris, but all of you kids are heros. (NT) -- Tiani, 19:05:48 06/16/03 Mon
- Stunning? Why thank you!!! Usually a guy has to spend the night with me before they label me stunning!!! LOL!!! -- Mitchell, 22:08:16 06/16/03 Mon
In reply to: Khadgar 's message, "Stunning" on 16:58:12 06/16/03 Mon
Seriously, I don’t appreciate you questioning my intelligence at all. While I’ve thought everything you have said was asinine, I was nice enough to NOT point it out.
You said, “Just about anyone who buries their head in the sand ignoring rational arguments hell bent upon believing that they can in no way be wrong.”
To say that someone who does not agree with what you think are rational arguments has their head buried in the sand is just rude, it does not matter if you say it to a high school kid or an adult.
- I've never seen anyone tear into a gay kid like that on a gay rights forum. **hugs Chris** I have always admired you Chris, from the first time you showed up on this board asking for information on how you could start a GSA. You were shy and you were scared, but determined and you overcame enormous obstacles, backed the school board down, and got your GSA. You're one of the finest, bravest kids I have ever had the privilaged to meet. -- Dante, 00:33:20 06/17/03 Tue
In reply to: Khadgar 's message, "Stunning" on 16:58:12 06/16/03 Mon
I don't know why anyone would single you out like that but please don't give it another thought.
You've very much loved and appreciated here by all of us who know you. I only wish there had been someone like you to start a GSA in my highschool when I was 17.
You are a class act all the way. ******hugs*****
- I’ve been sick for a few days (nothing serious) and haven’t really felt up to posting in this thread. But before the thread disappears I just want to add something here. I’m putting it under Dante’s post cuz I’m going to steal one of his lines. I can’t say it any better. Chris as Dante said, you’re a class act all the way. (And one of the most courageous human beings I’ve ever run into). (NT) -- Dano, 13:20:36 06/17/03 Tue
- Kids like Chris are on the front lines everyday. They are the heros. {hugs chris} I have one word for Chris. RESPECT. R-E-S-P-E-C-T -- Pepper, 01:28:45 06/17/03 Tue
In reply to: Khadgar 's message, "Stunning" on 16:58:12 06/16/03 Mon
In order for everyone to feel they can be themselves in a community like Crzy House, respect must be there from others. Kids like Chris must feel safe to be who they are.
Everyone has something to offer this community, and it would be a shame if someone as wonderful as Chris does not feel comfortable for fear of being taunted, laughed at, or ostracized.
We need to do more than just say that we are a diverse community, we need to show it.
We need to put our own insecurities and ignorance aside and educate ourselves about each other and about issues that directly affect the quality of our lives.
We don't all believe in the same things, and that is a good thing only when we respect one another.
Chris is a person who had the courage to make a difference in the lives of his fellow students and his school. He put his physical safety on the line.
Very few people are willing to, or have the courage to do what Chris did.
RESPECT R-E-S-P-E-C-T.
- man, I can't believe this. {{{hugs chris}}} chris, ur my hero n i luv u (NT) -- -- :*~*:. .:*~*:. ..:*~*:. . { JASON } . .:*~*:. .:*~*:. :*~*:., 17:21:21 06/16/03 Mon
- ·.,¸,·.*,¸·´*¯`·*´"¯)`'·.*,¸·´*¯`·(¯`*¸,¸,.·*´*(¯`'·.,(....::hugs Chris::....¸,*.·*'´¯)¸,*.·*'´¯)¯`'*·¸*(¯`'·.*,¸·´*¯`·)¯`'·.,¸·* (NT) -- (¯`'·.,¸(¯`'·.,¸·´¯`·jErEmY·´¯`·,.·'´¯)¸,.·'´¯), 17:16:43 06/16/03 Mon
- **************hugs chris********** (NT) -- mattie, 18:20:17 06/16/03 Mon
- Stunning -- Khadgar, 16:58:12 06/16/03 Mon
- I am very sorry if I gave that impression. I was expressing my personal opinion about a Federal Hate Crime Law issue. I was not making a pesonal attack on anyone. I don't do that. (NT) -- Chris, 12:44:41 06/16/03 Mon
- Chris, or -- Khadgar, 11:19:37 06/16/03 Mon
- Are you addressing this to Chris? (NT) -- Lance, 23:48:33 06/15/03 Sun
- Ditto to your subject -- Trevor/TJ, 01:14:14 06/11/03 Wed
- I will wait until Lance posts his comments before I participate. Where is Lance anyway? (NT) -- Pepper, 02:12:06 06/11/03 Wed
In reply to: John 's message, "Hate Crime Laws" on 10:32:11 06/10/03 Tue
- LANCE IS HERE! (Better late than never!) And now I'm going to bed! (NT)
-- Lance, 04:58:32 06/11/03 Wed
In reply to: Pepper 's message, "I will wait until Lance posts his comments before I participate. Where is Lance anyway?" on 02:12:06 06/11/03 Wed
- LANCE IS HERE! (Better late than never!) And now I'm going to bed! (NT)
-- Lance, 04:58:32 06/11/03 Wed
- ::comes dancing in::Look at the stars, Look how they shine for you, And everything you do, Yeah, they were all yellow. I came along, I wrote a song for you, And all the things you do, And it was called 'Yellow.' -- Lance, 04:46:49 06/11/03 Wed
In reply to: John 's message, "Hate Crime Laws" on 10:32:11 06/10/03 Tue
Hey John! See I told you that I would be home around 3 or so give or take a day! HAHA!
OK - MY friend John and I decided we would "discuss" the pros and cons of hate crime laws for gays.
now the MAIN PURPOSE of this discussion is EDUCATION.
Through YOUR participation, whether it be comments or questions or detailed discussion and debate, facts will be presented about hate crimes and what we think can be done about it to make this world a safer place for all of us.
It's also supposed to show that people with opposing or at least different points of view can disagree without getting angry and without it upsetting their friendship.
Those are the two primary reasons for this discussion, PLUS, as Dano and I have talked about several times, it is waaaaaaay past time to hold a new discussion about hate crimes on this board.
I hope that everyone comes away with something positive from this. I hope you all keep an open mind, and that you learn something and teach me a lot in the process.
That said - I shall begin with a brief little overview about hate crime and then discuss each of John's four points at some length. I didn't proof read or spell check so as always deal with it.
I bet I'm the only person who went to see coldplay and came home and addressed the hate crime law issue tonight.
And now my opening statement of my point of view regarding HATE CRIME LAW:
~
The murder of Matthew Shepard galvanized the gay and lesbian community and alerted the nation and the world to the horror and brutality of violence directed at gay people, but his death was hardly an isolated incident.
In fact, as I looked over the list of names yesterday morning, I had to just stop for awhile. It was too sad. It broke my heart.
Reports of violent crimes inflicted on members of the gau community continue to rise while overall crime in most cities in the United States falls. Some attribute hate crimes statistics to better tracking, but there are few gay men and women in the world who haven't been touched by some form of violence motivated by anti-gay bias.
Until there is a broadened Federal hate crimes bill, there will be little progress towards the elimination of gays as the last socially-acceptable scapegoats for many in society.
Responding in brief to Johns list:
1.They are unfair and violate the 14th amendment of the Costitution, which guarantees equal protection under the law.
Whether or not they violate the 14th amendment of the Constitution, the fact of the matter is, there are hate crime laws to protect other minorites and gay people need to be a protected minority.
Since 1969, 18 U.S.C. 245 has permitted federal prosecution of a hate crime if the crime was motivated by bias based on race, religion, national origin or color and because the victim was exercising a "federally protected right" (e.g. voting, attending school, etc.). After 33 years, it has become clear that the statute needs to be amended to include actual or perceived sexual orientation, thereby bringing much needed uniformity to federal law.
Gay people are singled out for violence based entirely on sexual orientation. Hate crimes against gay people are among the fastest growing hate crimes in this country. We need Federal Laws to insure that crimes committed against a person solely because of their real or perceived sexual orientation are pursued and criminals are prosecuted.
Are you advocating that we roll back ALL hate crime laws because you and I both know that will never be allowed to happen. So if minorities based on race and religion are protected by hate crime laws, we must have a hate crime law for gays because we are a MAJOR target of hate crime (unlike short people and redheads. LOL)
Since 1995, the Republican-controlled Congress enacted more than 35 laws that create new federal crimes or imposed new federal criminal penalties for conduct that is already criminal under state law. These laws address a wide range of issues from punishing "deadbeat Dads" to protecting Veterans' cemeteries to a bill signed into law on August 2, 2000, that protects animals used in law enforcement. The bill protecting animals used in law enforcement was considered so non-controversial that it sailed through the House by voice vote. Although criminal law is traditionally the domain of the states, Congress has regularly criminalized behavior in areas with broad national implications, including organized crime, terrorism, corporate fraud transcending state lines and civil rights. In fact, the federal government has enacted more than 3,000 criminal statutes since 1866, many of which have concerned civil rights.
The Senate has overwhelmingly supported similar federal hate crimes legislation. In 1996, the Senate voted 98 to 0 to pass the Church Arson Prevention Act, an amendment to 18 U.S.C. §247, which clarified the federal role in the investigation and prosecution of bias crimes based on ethnic or racial animus targeted at religious property. While LLEEA (local law enforcement enhancement act - hate crime law) does not cover property -- only crimes against persons resulting in death or bodily injury -- both amendments contain a commerce clause nexus, thus granting federal jurisdiction.
The American public supports federal hate crimes legislation. Public opinion polling consistently finds the overwhelming majority of Americans support inclusion of sexual orientation in federal hate crimes laws. For example, a Kaiser Family Foundation poll released in November 2001 showed that 73 percent of Americans support hate crime legislation that includes sexual orientation.
2.They accomplish very little in the punishing or deterring of criminal actions, just as the death penalty doesn't deter homicides in the states that have a death penalty.
We shouldn't have hate crime laws because they accomplish little in punishing or deterring hate crimes. Following that rationale we shouldn't bother having a law against murder because people murder other people everyday.
In regard to hate crime laws, I disagree with you about whether it deterres criminal actions. While it may not have a lot of effect on a psychotic murder, I believe it will have a large impact on physical attacks and harrassment against gays.
These laws address crimes such as assault, arson, harrassment, vandalism in addition to murder. Too often such hate crimes are ignored or given light sentences under existing laws and hate crime laws serve to emphasize that these crimes should not be ignored and have mandatory sentencing guidelines.
Plus it has the added benefit of forcing local law officers to do their job regardless of their own prejudices. With hate crime laws, if local law enforcement fails to act, they know they will answer for it. They can and will be held accountable for their failure to respond properly.
3.They are designed to punish thoughts more so than actions
You'll notice that above I had this sentence -
"While LLEEA (local law enforcement enhancement act - hate crime law) does not cover property -- only crimes against persons resulting in death or bodily injury Now as far as I know, no one has ever suffered death or bodily injury simply from "thoughts" so it's clear that this law does NOT punish people for what they think.
The "thought police" argument is a favorite of the religious right because they think we're all abominations and going to burn in Hell and they want to be able to tell us that at every opportunity without fear of someone slapping them in jail. Now they know full well that a Hate Crime Law won't have any effect on their freedom to hatespeech, but they like to use that argument to make people distrust the law, to turn public opinion against a hate crime law that protects those "diviant sinners."
It's interesting to note however, I've yet to see one of them stand up and say that the inclusion of religious beliefs in our already existing hate crimes laws is a bad thing! haha.
I'm very suprised to see you using that argument, John.
Hate crimes legislation would in no way limit freedom of speech much less thoughts. In order for hate crime legislation to be applied in a specific case, a criminal act must first be committed.
Preaching hatred against a particular group of people such as Jews, Afro-Americans, women, gays, lesbians, etc, or stating that God hates a specific group of people have always been protected forms of speech. Such speech is in no way a criminal act. Freedom of speech is protected under the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution.
Senator Chuck Robb (D-VA) commented: "This legislation does not allow individuals to be prosecuted for their hateful thoughts, rather it allows them to be punished for their hateful acts. Willfully inflicting harm on another human being based on hate is not protected free speech."
and 4.They single out groups of people, especially the gay community, and put them in the limelight for the anti-gay bigots and homophobes to use as targets of their hatred once again.
That is in essence blaming the victims. It's gay people's fault that they get targeted because they have in some way drawn attention to themselves?
Using that rationale, gays should try to be as invisable as possible? Should everyone go back in the closet to prevent causing some anti-gay bigot or homophobe from having a target for their hatred.
Whether we like it or not, gay people as a group and as individuals ARE singled out in this society. Everytime we dare hold our b/f's hand or dance with someone of the same sex in public, we are standing directly in the spotlight.
The fact is, gays ARE targets of violent crime through no fault of our own. The gay community is a target of anti-gay bigots and homophobes, which is precisely why gays need to be included in a Federal Hate Crime Law that sends a clear message.
Rather than making our lives more dangerous, while hate crimes bills do not directly discourage anti-gay violence, they help to create a climate of intolerance towards intolerance.
Whether or not you believe that a federal hate crime law would be any sort of deterent for the hiengous and vicious crimes that occure to queers, racial minorities, or women, I strongly believe that congress must move foward with a national standard as a statement to the United States that gays will be treated as equals, as human beings.
Sometimes, it takes laws to influence societal changes. As we moved forward towards a more perfect union, we included women in 1920, people of color in 1964, people with disabilities in 1990. But, we have not yet included people of sexual diversity even though every poll shows that it is supported by a large majority of the American public.
Pretending that there isn't a problem, that gays are not targets will not make hate crime rates go down.
How many more vibrant young lives must be lost before we wake up and realize that there has to be a uniform, Federal hate crime law that will insure anyone who attacks a gay person will be held accountable by the Federal Government.
Harvey Milk
Billy Jack Gaither
Brandon Teena,
Diane Whipple
Jenny Jones murder
Matthew Shepard
Pfc. Barry Winchell
Regan Wolf
Roanoke Shootings
Serial Killings
Warren Murder
Williams Brothers
A decade of gay martyrs:
1990 ---------- Charlie Resendez - b. 1952, killed in Texas
1990 ---------- Thanh Nguyen - b. 1961, killed in Texas
1990, Jan. 6 -- Tommy Mayhall - shot by Keith Goodman
1990, Jan. 6 -- Richard Thomas - shot by Keith Goodman
1990, Jan. 6 -- R.C. Vaughn - shot by Keith Goodman
1990, June 11 - Castro Nova Estaban - San Diego, CA, shot
1990, June 11 - Rafael Sanchez Ayala - San Diego, CA, shot
1990, June 16 - Julie Birchell - San Francisco, CA, hit by a car
1990, June 24 - Sherri Ramsom - Morrisville, PA, beaten
1990, July 2 -- Jose Angel Osuna - San Diego, CA, shot
1990, July 2 -- Julio Rivera - stabbed to death in Jackson Heights, Queens
1990, Aug. 11 - Eduardo Lora Vasallio - Philadelphia, PA, shot
1990, Sept. 4 - Donald Pierce - San Diego, CA, hit by a car
1990, Nov. 5 -- Michelle Maree - Memphis, TN, shot
1990, Nov. 23 - Felix Abarca - East County, California
1990, Dec. 10 - Carlos "Tasha" Santiago - Oceanside, CA, shot
1990, Dec. 22 - Anna Francisco - Philadelphia, stabbed
1990, Dec. 24 - Edna Brown - Atlanta, Georgia, shot
1991 ---------- Louis Neal - 71, stangled in home by Javier Cruz (age 41) in San Antonio
1991 ---------- James Ryan - 69, stangled in home
1991 ---------- David A. Perez - San Francisco, CA
1991, Feb. 18 - Unidentified - Hollywood, CA, shot
1991, Mar. 29 - Unidentified - San Antonio, TX, beaten
1991, July 10 - Carmen Marie Montoya - Oakland, beaten
1991, July 4 -- Paul Broussard - 27, beaten to death
1991, Aug. 7 -- Patrick Calvert - St. Louis, Missouri, stabbed
1991, Sep. 24 - Shannon Elroy Clay - Greenville, NC, stabbed
1991, Sept 28 - James Schleppe - substitute teacher, Calgary
1991, October - Lynn Therett - San Francisco, CA
1991, Oct. 14 - Huriell Lockett (David King) - Atlanta, Georgia, shot
1991, Oct. 29 - Rhonda Starr (Ronnie D. Lyles) - Atlanta, Georgia, shot
1991, Oct. 29 - Unidentified - Atlanta, Georgia, blow to head
1991, Nov. 3 -- Phillip W. Smith - shot outside gay bar in Montrose, CA
1991, Nov. 8 -- Jean (Woodrow) Powell - Atlanta, Georgia, shot
1991, Dec. 17 - Kenneth Dale "Midnight" Robinson - San Antonio, TX, stabbed
1991, Dec. 20 - Joseph Mitchell - 45, stabbed along Highway 116
1991, Dec. 29 - Richard Goldman - New York, NY, shot
1992, --------- Jose Manuel Rubio - b. 1964, killed in Texas
1992, Jan. 11 - Julio Prado - 39, stabbed in New York
1992, Feb. 1 -- Adelmo Deotto - 59; Friuli, Italy
1992, Feb. 2 -- Jesus Santiago - 24, beaten in New York
1992, Feb. 8 -- Unidentified - Bronx, New York, beaten
1992, Feb. 13 - James Holman - 36, stabbed in Colorado
1992, Apr. 12 - Bernie Walsh - 28, stabbed in New York
1992, Apr. 21 - Cameron "Tina" Tanner - San Francisco, CA, beaten
1992, May ----- Susan Pittman - shot by neighbor in Michigan
1992, May ----- Christine Pucket - shot by neighbor in Michigan
1992, May 27 -- Carlos Stoner - 33, stabbed in North Carolina
1992, May 30 -- Harold Draper - 29, stabbed in New Jersey
1992, May 30 -- John Garfield - shot in California
1992, June ---- Rene "Michelle" Ouellet - Cape May, NJ, stangled
1992, June 2 -- David Stewart - stabbed in Colorado
1992, June 11 - Sanford "Sam" Swift - 31, puncture wound to head in DC
1992, July 1 -- Jose Rubio - stabbed in Texas
1992, July 6 -- Joey H. Jordan - gunshot to head in Maryland
1992, July 6 -- Marsha P. Johnson (Malcolm Michaels) - 46 drowned in NY
1992, July 13 - Thomas Mulcahey - 57, dismembered in New Jersey
1992, July 16 - Benjamin Zesch - 61, stabbed in Colorado
1992, July 19 - Vanathan Pleasant III - 21, multiple gunshot to head in NY
1992, July 20 - Gerald Taylor - 66, stabbed in North Carolina
1992, July 27 - Victor Bones - 20s, gunshot to head in New York
1992, Sep. 15 - Robert Ferrell - 57, stabbed in Colorado
1992, Sep. 26 - Brian Mock - arson attack in Salem, Oregon
1992, Sep. 26 - Hattie MacCohens - arson attack in Salem, Oregon
1992, October - Bruce Andrews - 28, multiple stab wounds in Michigan
1992, Oct. 13 - Unidentified Man - shot in Ohio
1992, Oct. 14 - Robert Woefel - Ixonia, Wisconsin, shot
1992, Oct. 25 - Howard Liebhaber - 34, beaten & stabbed in Minnesota
1992, Oct. 25 - Brian Burke - 36, bludgeoned in New York
1992, Nov. 8 -- Anthony Swain - Atlanta, Georgia, shot
1992, Nov. 8 -- Leta Dains - stabbed in Indiana
1992, Nov. 8 -- Pamela Agee - stabbed in Indiana
1992, Nov. 9 -- David Schwartz - 55, stabbed in New York
1992, Dec. ---- Unidentified Transvestite - shot in Georgia
1992, Dec. ---- Stephan "Stephanie" Chapman - shot to head in New York
1992, Dec. 8 -- Grayce "Candace" Baxter - Toronto, choked, dismembered
1992, Dec. 19 - Derry Glenn - Atlanta, Georgia, shot
1992, Dec. 20 - Unidentified - Atlanta, Georga, shot
1992, Dec. 21 - Jack Cowles - 74, stabbed $ bludgeoned DC
1992, Dec. 21 - Kenneth Love - 42, head caved in in DC
1992, Dec. 26 - Anthony Carr - 33, stabbed in Colorado
1993 ---------- Mary S. - Boston, MA, stabbed and drowned
1993, Jan. 2 -- Chrissy (Marvin) Johnson - Baltimore, MD, stabbed
1993, Jan. 3 -- Eric Moore - 22, shot at point-blank range, body hung from a hook in DC
1993, Jan. 7 -- Ana Maria Rosales - 24, shot in the face in DC
1993, Jan. 10 - George S. - mutilated in Ohio
1993, Jan. 14 - Elizabeth Kelle Davidson - 25, shot in gay bar in Georgia
1993, Jan. 22 - Randy Gonzales - 26, stabbed in Colorado
1993, Jan. 26 - Christiana D'Arcy - Harford, CT, strangled
1993, Jan. 29 - Terry Oliver - 27, beaten & stangled in Minnesota
1993, Feb. 2 -- Robert Harris - bludgeoned in Illinois
1993, Feb. 3 -- Alan Haskell - 30, stangled in DC
1993, Feb. 14 - James Flaherty - 52, stabbed & strangled in Florida
1993, Feb. 22 - Delores Mack - Hahnville, LA, strangled
1993, March --- Jeffrey Dansby - stabbed in Michigan
1993, March --- Unidentified Man - shot in Oklahoma
1993, March 2 - Quona R. Clark - Chicago
1993, Mar. 11 - Michael Cooper - multiple gunshot wounds in Florida
1993, Mar. 11 - Lawrence Andrews - 44, stangled & stabbed in NY
1993, Mar. 14 - Valerio Gentile - 17; Puglia, Italy
1993, Mar. 27 - George "Joe" Ortiz - 40, stabbed in NY
1993, Apr. 3 -- Roosevelt "Terry" Lewis - 30s, strangled & burned in NY
1993, Apr. 17 - Charles Lee - multiple stab in New York
1993, Apr. 22 - William Childs - 27, stabbed, throat slit in Missouri
1993, Apr. 24 - Rammie LaFitte - beaten to death outside a gay bar
1993, Apr. 24 - Unidentified Man - 51, beaten in Louisiana
1993, Apr. 29 - Duane Swalve - 23, beaten & stangled in Minnesota
1993, May 14 -- Thomas Carey - 39, shot in Massachusetts
1993, May 16 -- Anthony Marrero - 44, stabbed & dismembered in NY
1993, May 19 -- Jack Gilman - shot to the head in Kentucky
1993, May 22 -- Mauricio Bassa - murdered in California
1993, May 26 -- Craig Green - 34, beaten in Minnesota
1993, May 31 -- Unidentified Man - 22, murdered in Indiana
1993, June 20 - Bradley Wantdler - stabbed in Washington
1993, June 21 - James Primus - 35, set on fire in his car in Alabama
1993, June 23 - Craig Johnson - 23, gunshot to head in Missouri
1993, Jun3 23 - Leopoldo "Paul" Quintanilla - 29, stabbed, throat and genitals cut in Texas
1993, June 28 - Unidentified Man - 27, strangled in Virginia
1993, June 29 - Milton Setzer - 60, throat slit in New York
1993, June 29 - Eric Price - 25, throat slit in New York
1993, July 7 -- Keith Michael Ogden - 31, beaten in California
1993, July 8 -- John Duncan O'Friel - 46, beaten in California
1993, July 8 -- Dwight Green - 44, bludgeoned in New York
1993, July 10 - Unidentified - Santa Ana, CA, shot
1993, July 10 - Daniel A. Castro - Santa Ana, CA, shot
1993, July 28 - James Seward - 42, mutiple stab in New York
1993, July 30 - Chris Miller - 23, stabbed in Arkansas
1993, July 31 - Michael Sakara - dismembered in New York
1993, August -- Robert Hagan - throat slashed in Pennsylvania
1993, August -- Father Ronald Maupin - stabbed in California
1993, Aug. 6 -- Ethel Parrous - 65, straight, wife of Peter, shot
1993, Aug. 6 -- James F. Kidd - 46, shot in restaurant
1993, Aug. 6 -- Wesley Scott - 26, shot in restaurant
1993, Aug. 15 - Jimmy Hawkins - 50, multiple in New York
1993, Aug. 15 - Doug Koehler - 31, gunshot to head in Utah
1993, Aug. 17 - Donnie O. Osby - Orlando, FL, shot
1993, Sep. 3 -- Unidentified Man - stangled in Virginia
1993, Sep. 6 -- Dinh Van Ho - Honolulu, Hi, stangled
1993, Sep. 16 - Ricky Godbolt - 33, bound, gagged and stabbed in DC
1993, Sep. 16 - Roger Donahue - 25, bound, gagged and stabbed in DC
1993, Sep. 30 - Mervin Wallace - mid 50s, strangled in New York
1993, Oct. 7 -- Marguita (Martin) Johnson - Xenia, Ohio, shot 3 times in the face
1993, Oct. 23 - Derrick "Miss Tess" Hampton - Memphis, TN, beaten
1993, Oct. 31 - Dennis Johnson - throat slit in Illinois
1993, Nov. 2 -- Steven R. Hayman - 47, bludgeoned in Colorado
1993, Nov. 8 -- David Edward Wigley - San Antonio, TX, stabbed
1993, Nov. 12 - Joe Balogg - straight, thought to be gay, stabbed in Louisiana
1993, Nov. 20 - Eric Farrow (aka Ashley-Ann Summers) - shot in Ohio
1993, Nov. 30 - Nicholas West - 23, abducted, robbed and shot in Texas
1993, Dec. ---- Unidentified Man - 70's, beathen to death in Illinois
1993, Dec. 10 - James Maile - 25, bludgeoned in Connecticut
1993, Dec. 18 - Unidentified Transvestits - multiple stab wounds in Illinois
1993, Dec. 19 - Larry Venzent - Chicago, stabbed
1993, Dec. 22 - James Graves - bludgeoned in California
1993, Dec. 23 - Jeannie Fenmore - 48, gunshot to head in New York
1993, Dec. 31 - Unidentified Man - prostitute, multiple stab wounds in Illinois
1993, Dec. 31 - Brandon Teena - executed by gun in Nebraska
1994 ---------- Alanna Kella - New York, NY, shot
1994 ---------- Randall Tubb - b. 1957, killed in Texas
1994 ---------- Ernest Saldana - b. 1962, killed in Texas
1994, Jan. ---- Michael Benishek - bludgeoned and throat slit in Texas
1994, Jan. 2 -- Johanna Langer - Concord, CA, stabbed
1994, Jan. 2 -- Marvin Johnson - 29, multiple stab wounds in Maryland
1994, Jan. 8 -- Charles Logan - 47, multiple gunshot wounds in DC
1994, Jan. 16 - Duane Linsley - shot in Arizona
1994, Jan. 25 - Larry Leggett - stabbed in Texas
1994, June 10 - Gary Watts - 34, shot in Virginia
1994, June 13 - Henry Weatherford Jr. - 50, shot in Virginia
1994, June 22 - Unidentified - San Diego, CA
1994, Feb. ---- Tommy Musick - 48, shot several times in Texas
1994, Feb. 5 -- Paul McClure - 47, stangled in DC
1994, Feb. 23 - Pauline Campbell - 34, stabbed in New York
1994, Feb. 25 - Ronnie Hugh Smith - 58, bludgeoned in Arkansas
1994, March --- Craig Duncan - 20s, stabbed in Florida
1994, March 3 - Joe Trevino - stangled in bludgeoned in Texas
1994, March 5 - James Septimphelter - stangled in New Jersey
1994, Mar. 15 - John Hardy Roberts - 59, beaten by Gary Ray Bowles
1994, Mar. 18 - Frank W. White - 56, multiple gunshot wounds in DC
1994, Mar. 24 - Tony Ray - shot in California
1994, Mar. 28 - Tommy Wenger - 24, stabbed & dismembered in California
1994, April 2 - John Anthony Burwell - 26, shot in Texas
1994, April 3 - Paul Steekman - 47, beaten in Pennsylvania
1994, April 4 - Robert Haines - executed by gun in Arizona
1994, April 4 - David A. Jarman - 38, strangled by Gary Ray Bowles in DC
1994, April 9 - William Lemke - multiple stab wounds in Illinois
1994, Apr. 20 - Bernard Friedman - 56, stabbed in New York
1994, Apr. 22 - Unidentified Man - multiple stab wounds in Illinois
1994, May ----- Joseph Charles Holleran - beaten Oct. 24, 1992 in AZ
1994, May 1 --- John Stella - 33, shot in New York
1994, May 2 --- Roger Oliver - 23, beaten near decapitation in Rhode Island
1994, May 8 --- Bruce Hutchinson - raped and bludgeoned in Colorado
1994, May 9 --- Andrew Rowe - 53, multiple stab wounds in DC
1994, May 10 -- Marvin Greenwell - 55, multiple stab wounds in DC
1994, May 19 -- Albert Alcie Morris - 37, strangled by Gary Ray Bowles
1994, May 19 -- Milton Bradley - 72,
1994, May 17 -- Stuart Jerome Moses - 33, multiple gunshot wounds in DC
1994, May 23 -- Poul Anderson - 54, shot in head in California
1994, May 28 -- Javier Munsuri - 40, gunshot to head in New York
1994, June ---- Unidentified Man - 50, gunshot in Indiana
1994, June 9 -- Michael Despain - 24, killed in arsen attack
1994, June 13 - Chris Allen Madden - 32, stabbed by Michael Barry, 21
1994, June 13 - Richard Whitesell - 32, stabbed in New York
1994, June 23 - Shelton Thigpen - 74, stangled in DC
1994, July 4 -- Therman Brown - shot in California
1994, July 8 -- William Douglas Metz - 36, stabbed in Nevada
1994, July 13 - Martin Parian - 20s, gunshot to head in New York
1994, July 15 - Johnnie Williams - 48, beaten and strangled in Minnesota
1994, July 16 - David Converse - 51, stabbed in Michigan
1994, July 20 - Steven Fox - 25, bludgeoned & broken neck in Minnesota
1994, July 21 - Unidentified Man - bludgeoned in Tennessee
1994, July 23 - Andre Jones - run over by car in South Carolina
1994, July 30 - Nelson Rawlins - 48, stabbed in New York
1994, July 30 - Michael Burzinski - 29, gunshot to head in Texas
1994, Aug. 3 -- Benjamin Rosario - 45, dismembered in New York
1994, Aug. 18 - Larry David Allen - multiple stabbed wounds in Texas
1994, Aug. 27 - Anton Walker - 54, beaten to death in Nevada
1994, Sept 17 - Garland LeRoy Taylor - 24, strangled in Virginia
1994, Sept 17 - Unidentified - Akron, Ohio
1994, Sept 17 - Lazaro Comesana - Miami, Florida, stangled
1994, Sept 28 - Scott Grundy - 30, shot
1994, October - Robert Kase - 44, in New York
1994, October - Robert Walters - 34, gunshot to head in Mississippi
1994, October - Joseph Shoemake - 24, gunshot to head in Mississippi
1994, Oct. 2 -- James Buchanan - 52, shot and burned in North Carolina
1994, Oct. 2 -- Jerry Lee Dowdy - 50, bludgeoned in North Carolina
1994, Oct. 5 -- Robert Harris - stangled in Pennsylvania
1994, Oct. 17 - Jon Simmons - shot in head in California
1994, Oct. 29 - Unidentified Man - 20s, blundgeoned in Kansas
1994, Fall ---- Roger Melner - 60s, bludgeoned in Wyoming
1994, Nov. 20 - Walter Jammell Hinton - 43, murdered in Florida
1994, Nov. 26 - Gary Rocus - 41, beaten & stangled in Michigan
1994, Dec. ---- Terrie Ladwig - Concord, CA, strangled
1994, Dec. 12 - Thomas Frazee - 28, shot in Arizona
1994, Dec. 15 - Stanley King - shot in Mississippi
1994, Dec. 17 - Harold Coon - beaten and stabbed in Virginia
1995 ---------- Mara Duvouw - New York, NY
1995 ---------- Unidentified - Philadelphia, shot
1995 ---------- Jackie Wayne Myers - b. 1958, killed in Texas
1995 ---------- Jose Issasi - b. 1966, killed in Texas
1995, Feb. 26 - Reynaldo "Rayna" Sandoval - Oxnard, CA, shot
1995, Mar. 9 -- Scott Amedure - shot to death (Jenny Jones show)
1995, May 15 -- Debra Forte - Haverhill, MA, stabbed
1995, July 10 - Unidentified - Oakland, CA, beaten
1995, July 12 - Valerie Hill - Akron, Ohio, shot
1995, July 12 - Rev. John "Gypsy" Prowett - Memphis, TN, shot
1995, Aug. 8 -- Tyra Hunter - Washington, D.C., was refussed medical treatment after an auto accident
1995, Aug. 10 - Unidentified - Oakland, CA, beaten
1995, Oct. 11 - Quincy Favors Taylor - Atlanta, Georgia, shot
1995, Oct. 14 - Steven Wilson - Middletown, DE, drowned
1995, Nov. 20 - Chanelle Picket - Watertown, MA, beaten
1995, Dec. 5 -- Roxanne Ellis - Medford, Oregon
1995, Dec. 5 -- Michelle Abdill - Medford, Oregon
1995, Dec. 5 -- Stanley K. Runcorn - killed at Hotel San Diego in CA
1995, Dec. 30 - James "Tatiana" Rivers - Oakland, stabbed
1996 ---------- Bruce Becker - b. 1960, killed in Texas
1996 ---------- Pablo Zuniga - b. 1965, killed in Texas
1996 ---------- David Johnson - b. 1959, killed in Texas
1996, Jan. 4 -- Fred Mangione - 46, stabbed 35 times outside a gay bar in Texas
1996, Feb. 22 - Logan Smith - Hoffman Estates, IL, beaten by police
1996, Mar. 22 - Christian Paige - Chicago, beaten, stabbed and strangled
1996, Apr. 29 - David Madson - architect, Minneapolis
1996, Apr. 29 - Jeffrey Trail - Minneapolis
1996, May ----- Leon Laureles - Brownwood, Texas
1996, May 20 -- Deanna Wilkinson - Toronto, shot
1996, May 20 -- Shawn Keegan - Toronto, shot
1996, May 31 -- Rodney D. Neadeau - Minneapolis, MN, beaten
1996, June 4 -- Lawrence Ford - 61, beaten to death
1996, June 13 - Janice Ricks - Cleaveland, Ohio, shot
1996, July ---- Andrew Smith
1996, July 20 - Keoudorn Phothisane - Minneapolis, MN, beaten
1996, Aug. 15 - Thomas Hall - Wahiawa, HI, beaten
1996, Oct. 25 - James Rebuck - 55, stabbed to death in his apartment
1996, Nov. 4 -- Dion Webster - New York, NY, stabbed
1996, Nov. 9 -- Alan Fitzgerald Walker - Fayetteville, Arizona, beaten
1996, Dec. 21 - Jimmy McGuire - 35, Washington D.C.
1996, Dec. 21 - James Williams - 27, Washington D.C.
1997 ---------- Lynn Montana - Washington, DC, beaten
1997 ---------- Curdell James III - Tuscaloosa, Alabama, shot
1997 ---------- Toya Charlton - Tuscaloosa, Alabama, shot
1997 ---------- David Ward - killed in Texas
1997 ---------- Marcus Wayman - Minersville, PA, committed suicide after police told him they would inform his family of homosexuality.
1997, Jan. 5 -- John Robert Wittington - age 41, shot Washington, D.C.
1997, Jan. 6 -- Gregory Duane Barnes - age 35, strangled in Minneapolis
1997, Apr. 28 - Michael Allen - beaten with hammer by tennants
1997, May 28 -- Gracie "James" Detzler - Edmonton, Canada, strangled & drowned
1997, June 20 - Kevin Freeman - New York, NY, split skull
1997, July 15 - Gianni Versace - 50, designer, shot at home in Miami
1997, July 25 - Irving Sicherer - Aventura, Florida
1997, July 26 - Anthony Martilotto - Ford Lauderdale, Florida
1997, Oct. 15 - Robert H. Jones - New Castle, Delaware, shot
1997, Oct. 29 - Stephen Dempsey - shot with cross bow & dismembered
1997, Nov. 10 - Maurice E. Murray - St. Louis, Missouri, shot
1997, Dec. 4 -- Yamile (Jorge) Lee - San Diego, CA, stabbed
1997, Dec. 5 -- Ali He'shun Forney - New York, NY, shot
1997, Dec. 24 - Vianna Faye Williams - Jersey City, NJ, stabbed
1998 ---------- Jacqueline Anderson - 29, shot, Portland, Oregon
1998 ---------- Barbara Gilpin - 44, shot, Portland, Oregon
1998 ---------- Rokhlin, Lev Yakovlevich - murdered by wife
1998 ---------- John Cavness - b. 1955, killed in Texas
1998 ---------- Guy Meachum - b. 1938, killed in Texas
1998 ---------- Robert Valles - b. 1940, killed in Texas
1998 ---------- Robert Pacheco - b. 1959, killed in Texas
1998, Jan. ---- Thomas Moffat - murdered Phoenix, Arizona
1998, Feb. ---- Robert Hernandez - shot Phoenix, Arizona
1998, Feb. 14 - Tasha Dunn - Tampa, FL, beaten
1998, Feb. 24 - Jacqueline Julita Anderson - Portland, OR, shot
1998, Mar. 13 - Brian Wilmes - 45, beath to death
1998, Mar. 24 - Leslie Re'Geanna - Chicago, hit and run
1998, Mar. 25 - Rev. Ramon Martinez - Port Sulpher, LA. stabbed
1998, Apr. 4 -- Regina Haskins - New York, NY, shot
1998, Apr. 27 - Steven Godereis - West Palm Beach, FL, beaten
1998, June 10 - Johnny Bachemin - New Orleans, stabbed at home
1998, July 12 - Ali Forney - murdered in New York
1998, July 31 - Robert Howard "Tiny" Gibson - El Cajon, CA, stabbed
1998, August -- Herman Rodriguez - Des Moines, Iowa
1998, Aug. 18 - Fitzroy "Jamaica" Green - New York, NY, stabbed
1998, Sep. 11 - Monique (Rufus) Thomas - Dorchester, MA
1998, Sep. 20 - Chanel Chandler - 22, Clovis, California
1998, Oct. 7 -- Gary Trzaska - Buffalo, New York
1998, Oct. 12 - Matthew Wayne Shepard - Laramie, Wyoming, beaten
1998, Oct. 24 - Horst "Hans" Grahlmann - Guerneville, Calif.
1998, Oct. 24 - Jason Bojore - Guerneville, Calif.
1998, Nov. 18 - James Ward - 37, stabbed
1998, Nov. 28 - Rita Hester - 34, Boston, Mass. stabbed 20 times
1998, Oct. 13 - Clay Jacquin - Ditroit, Michigan, beaten
1999, Jan. 8 -- Donald Scott Fuller - aka Lauryn Paige, 18, Austin, Texas
1999, Jan. 9 -- Harold Jack Eisenhoth II - Eldorado, Colorado, w/hammer
1999, Jan. 14 - Thomas Gary - 38, run over and shot
1999, Jan. 17 - Laaron L. Morris - 26, Texas City, Texas, shot
1999, Jan. 17 - Kevin Tryals - 30, Texas City, Texas, shot
1999, Jan. 21 - Troy Hoskins - New York, New York
1999, Feb. 6 -- Steve Dwayne Garcia - Houston, Texas, shot
1999, Feb. 17 - Robert Eads - 53, Atlanta, Georgia, was refussed medical service, trans, died of cancer
1999, Feb. 19 - Billy Jack Gaither - 39, beaten and burned in Alabama
1999, Feb. 21 - Alden Hill - Lansing, Michigan, shot
1999, Feb. 25 - Unidentified - Houston, Texas, shot
1999, Mar. 6 -- Henry Edward Northington - Richmond, VA, beheaded
1999, Mar. 29 - Tracey Thompson - 33, beaten with a bat in Cordele, Georgia
1999, May ----- Ruby Bota - body discovered, no information
1999, May ----- Eddie Matthews - Detroit, Michigan, strangled
1999, May ----- Alexander Charles - 16, Flat Rock, Michigan, shot
1999, May 7 --- Harold McCormick - Royal Oak, Michigan, stangled
1999, May 10 -- Robert Carpenter - Cohoes, NY, crushed throat w/ board
1999, May 19 -- William Paige McFarland - Detroit, Michigan, strangled
1999, June ---- Christopher Williams Jones Baltimore, MD killed with claw hammer.
1999, June ---- Michael Fleming - beaten, Baton Rouge, Louisiana
1999, June ---- Jacob Moses - age 37, drowned in Chicago, Illinois
1999, June ---- Louis Foggy - age 46, drowned in Chicago, Illinois
1999, June 24 - Emmon Bodfish (Margaret Ingalls Bodfish) - Orinda, CA
1999, July ---- John C. Lloyd - 69, Gainseville, Florida; stabbed 29 times
1999, July 1 -- Gary Matsno - shot in Happy Valley, Calif
1999, July 1 -- Winfield Scott Moder - shot in Happy Valley, Calif.
1999, July 5 -- Pft. Barry Winchell 21 - beaten by fellow soldiers
1999, July 27 - Baretta Williams - Chicago, Illinois, shot 16 times
1999, Aug. 19 - Dr. Alfred C. Moon - Providence, RI, killed with lamp
1999, Aug. 29 - Kareen Washington - 21, NJ, stabbed in throat
1999, Sep. 6 -- Yohann Lee - 18, Norristown, Penn, struck 30 times with hammer
1999, Sep. 27 - Charles Keys - Cleveland, Ohio, blunt force trauma
1999, Sep. 30 - Daniel O'Brien - 36, Denver, Colorado, strangled
1999, October - Genell Johnson Plude - Rhidelander, Wisc.; killed by husband
1999, Oct. 13 - Allison Decratel - 17, hit by a car in Iverness, Florida during gay pride Halloween festival
1999, Oct. 15 - Charles "Sissy" Bolden - Savannah, Georgia
1999, Oct. 20 - Michael J. Hatch - 22, Barron, Wisconsin, killed with iron
1999, Oct. 24 - Nathaniel "Troy" Hayden - Harlem, New York
1999, Nov. 20 - Dr. David Sexton - New Orleans, stabbed at his home
1999, Nov. 22 - Tacy Raino Ranta - Baltimore, MD, shot
1999, Dec. 8 -- Unidentified - Dallas, TX, beaten & stangled
1999, Dec. 12 - Ira Swearingen - 49, Stout, Ohio
1999, Dec. 24 - Todd Alexander Asay (Lindsey Alexander) - 25, Portland, Oregon.
We owe it to their memory that they did not die in vain. They are not forgotten. Their lives had meaning and were valued. They were loved. They were human beings.
- Back to you Lance -- John, 12:51:14 06/11/03 Wed
In reply to: Lance 's message, "::comes dancing in::Look at the stars, Look how they shine for you, And everything you do, Yeah, they were all yellow. I came along, I wrote a song for you, And all the things you do, And it was called 'Yellow.'" on 04:46:49 06/11/03 Wed
Well, welcome to the party Lance. You probably are the only one to see coldplay and then respond to HCL. I was out at the river boat Casinos all day and came home to respond to this topic.
Yes you did say you would be back, and missing by a day or so is no big deal. I've tried to hold off with more comments until you at least had a chance to make your statements.
Your opening statement using Mattew Shepherd's tragic murder and all the other trgedies that gays have suffered through is by no means anything to be taken lightly. I was living in Wyoming when Matthew was murdered and heard all the grissly detils on a daily basis. I also heard many of the residents say nasty and terrible things about Mattew. I spoke up, to a point, until I realized that if I kept up, I might be the next statistic. So don't anyone think I don't have compassion for the suffering that has been and is still going on. I abhor the cruel treatment that gays receive but HCLs are not the way to solve the problems. Incidentally,they do not just protect a gay who is singled out and assaulted.
As to your responses to my 4 basic points.
Lance's response:
1. "Whether or not they violate the 14th amendment of the Constitution, the fact of the matter is, there are hate crime laws to protect other minorites and gay people need to be a protected minority."
I'm surprised you would gloss over the fact that HCL would violate the equal protection clause of the Constitution. The Constitution is the backbone of this great country and everytime we erode some of it's authority we weaken this country. That has happened in cases before and maybe that's why there are more problems facing us today. To disregard the Constitution because it doesn't suit one's needs or desires is even more dangerous than faulty legislation.
And just so people understand. HCLs cover a myriad of situations. And yes Lance they do include the intent or thoughts of the perpetrator, which I'll get into in my next response.
If we could I would be all for rolling back the HCLs. Why do you or anyone feel that one person's well being or life is so much more valuable than anothers? Why can't there be one law to cover all people equally, as we now have? Why special treatment? I'm sure the mother of a nerdy chessclub member who gets harrassed and beaten up feels the same pain as the mother of a young gay student, who gets beaten up. And I'm sure she would like to see the same punishment meted out to her son's atttackers as was given to the attackers of the young gay man. As I pointed out in my previous post; we went through this during the Jim Crow days but apparently learned nothing.
Lance's reponse:
2. "Following that rationale we shouldn't bother having a law against murder because people murder other people everyday."
Laws were made to equally protect all of society. Abolishing a law against murder would certainly dessimate that ideal. We are not discussing removing any laws that equally protect all people. We are discussing laws which DUPLICATE laws already on the books but impose a harsher penalty in some cases, on the perpetrator.
Why would you even try to equate that with abolishing laws for murder?
My rationale for treating everyone equally under the law is in no way close to abolishing laws allowing people to go out and commit murder. I'm not only surprised you would say that, but a statement like that is putting words in my mouth that were never intented to be there. I'm sure that wasn't your intent, but that's the perception it gives.
Lance's reponse:
"In regard to hate crime laws, I disagree with you about whether it deterres criminal actions. While it may not have a lot of effect on a psychotic murder, I believe it will have a large impact on physical attacks and harrassment against gays."
As to your beliefs that HCL will deter criminal acts against gays, I can only say that I respect those beliefs. But unfortunately that is all they are. Your beliefs. Since the first HCL were enacted in 1969, that means that crimes against gays should be way down since they have been around for 34 years. But in your opening statement you stated that crimes against gays are increasing. So since you state that these crimes are increasing I can only gather that my statement about HCLs not deterring these crimes is a valid point.
The sentencing of these criminal acts under the HCL provision usually adds 1 year sometimes 2 to the sentence imposed. But since most lesser crimes allow for early release and parole, these added penaltys become miniscule at best.
And lastly, your statement about enforcing the law is probably the most significant.
In fact I think that's where the problem really lies. All the legislation in the world is useless if the laws aren't enforced. And for that topic I can't give any good solution since it relies on the integrety of law enforcement officials.
Let a gay man get arrested for speeding in some rural redneck county by a bigoted homophobe sherriff and I don't care what laws have been passed. Chances are that gay man is in serious trouble. I don't mean to sound frivolous but no laws will protect him. He will be at the mercy of his captors.
Lance's response:
3."I'm very suprised to see you using that argument, John."
HaHaHaHaHa! Nice try Lance, but please don't try to pigeonhole me with the wacko religious right wingers on this one. I gotta give you credit though. You do believe all is fair in these discussions. WHEN DO WE HEAR ABOUT THE WELFARE MOMS?
Lance's response:
"Hate crimes legislation would in no way limit freedom of speech much less thoughts. In order for hate crime legislation to be applied in a specific case, a criminal act must first be committed"
Check out the following and check the ref for further details.
*****In the followong examples words and phrases are used which are offensive to most but are included as part of the actual acts committed, so please do not think I condone the use of these words or adhere to their meanings. These are actual cases which contain the facts as presented.*****
For example, In San Jose in 1993, two neighbors got into an argument over grass clippings. Neighbor One used a lawn mower without a grass catcher, to blow grass onto neighbor Two’s lawn. Later, there was a fight, and the son of neighbor One punched neighbor Two. Normally, this would be a misdemeanor assault. But in California, the incident resulted in a felony conviction, because the son called neighbor Two a "cocksucker" and a "faggot. ref: (Jim Jacobs & Kimberly Potter, "Hate Crime: Criminal Law & Identity Politics N.Y. Oxford,2000)
At an Ohio campground, a man and his wife played their radio too loudly, and bothered the people at the next campground. When the park ranger told the couple to turn the radio down, they did, but 15 minutes later, they turned it up again. The husband then yelled that he ought to shoot the campers at the next campsite. He did not take violent action in any way.This misbehavior should have been prosecuted, since the man was clearly guilty of disturbing the peace and of making a threat. Instead, he was convicted of a "hate crime" felony and sentenced to a year and a half in prison. During his tirade, the man said the words "niggers" and "black motherfuckers." If he had not said those words, his offense would have been a misdemeanor, subject to a sentence of no jail time, or up to six months. It is certainly a skewed system of criminal justice in which the word "nigger" leads to a much harsher sentence than does a death threat. ref:( same as above p34.)
How many times has any of us said things in the heat of an argument or fight that weren't really intended. Well under the HCLs the above were prosecuted for what they said because it was their intent or thoughts that were interpreted.
AND JUST WHO DO YOU WANT DEFINING WHAT YOU WERE THINKING WHEN YOU COMMITTED WHAT WOULD BE CONSIDERED AN UNLAWFUL ACT?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/longterm/hatecrimes/stories/motives102698.htm
The above site shows another example of how similar crimes are treated differently. It's too lengthy to post here and I'm not trying to bore you. I just want you to be aware that thoughts play a very important part in determining whether or not a hate crime has been committed. There are numerous cases like these and I'd be happy to share them with you. So please don't say thoughts or speech are not involved in HCL. Let the case facts speak for themselves.
Sen. Robb might try reading some of these cases before misleading people with statements like you quoted. The neighbors dispute and criminal act itself was not motivated by hatred and wasn't a hate crime until certain words were uttered.
Lance's response:
4."That is in essence blaming the victims. It's gay people's fault that they get targeted because they have in some way drawn attention to themselves?"
I take it that is a question although you try to make it sound like a statement I made that you are questioning.
I stated that by demanding these fruitless and unfair laws, you put the gay community at the forefront and make them appear to be whining individuals who are demanding special treatment, which they are. This is used to influence and convince otherwise indifferent or borderline people to think gays are demanding special privileges and hurts the advancement of otherwise worthwhile causes, such as gay adoptions, gay marriages, etc. I never said or intended that it was gay people's fault that they get targeted. That fault lies with the bigots and homophobes, who should be punished to the full extent of the law when they commit violent acts against anyone.
Lance's response:
"Whether or not you believe that a federal hate crime law would be any sort of deterent for the hiengous and vicious crimes that occure to queers, racial minorities, or women, I strongly believe that congress must move foward with a national standard as a statement to the United States that gays will be treated as equals, as human beings. "
So, you believe the way to get equality for gays ( which HCLs do not do) is to do it at the expense of denying other people their equal rights under the law? I'm sorry, but how about if we treat all people equally and punish the lawbreakers w/o all the added legislation?
Politicians love the HCL issue because they can court the gay vote by making the gay community believe they are doing something for them.
I would rather see time and energy spent getting legislation through that would help the millions of abused kids out there than worrying about tacking a year or two onto some criminal's sentence which as I mentioned earlier, wouldn't mean much in the end.
And just as a side note: The murderers of Mattew Shepherd did receive the ultimate penalty with no assissatance from any HCLs. As did the two murderers of of James Byrd in Texas.They all received the death penalty although Mattew's killer's sentences were reduced to life w/o parole upon the request of his parents.
So what HCL would have prevented either tragedy or increased the severity of punishment? NONE
To finally finish, I can say that the list you displayed of victims is very heartwrenching. My heart goes out to their survivors. I have at least 30 or 40 dedications on my computer which I hope to post on a website someday. But remember the thousands and thousands of other people you left off the list. And remember the suffering that their families have also gone through. HCL would not have prevented any of this. Violent senseless acts are committed by prople who have no morales, so no laws or penalties will stop them. Unfortunately.
And also remember that there are laws on the books as I pointed out in Matthew Shepherd's case and James Byrd's, and their killers were prosecuted to the full extent of the law without weakening our Constitution. We are all valuable and worthwhile to someone and we all need to have the same rights as others. I am an advocate for fighting for equal rights for gays, but let's not sacrifice others for our our causes. There are many ways to advance our causes but it takes people getting involved, not hurtful or disruptive legislation.
A quote from Judge Rehnquist; If we keep sacrificing "one" law to save "all the laws," there will eventually be no laws left to save.
These are the words written above the entrance to the Supreme Court Building:
EQUAL JUSTICE UNDER THE LAW
- Question -- Khadgar, 21:47:56 06/15/03 Sun
In reply to: Lance 's message, "::comes dancing in::Look at the stars, Look how they shine for you, And everything you do, Yeah, they were all yellow. I came along, I wrote a song for you, And all the things you do, And it was called 'Yellow.'" on 04:46:49 06/11/03 Wed
How many of the names on that list had the crimes that killed them go unprosecuted?
Hmm, since they're all classed as hate crimes (or I presume otherwise you would not of mentioned them) against gays, I'm betting they were all prosecuted right?
So, how many went unprosecuted? Did the offenders get less time than they would have for killing a straight white guy? Or was it the same?
All men are created equal, it's the cornerstone of a democracy. You can't say all men are equal, except these guys who are special.
I don't see how you can possibly argue that hate crimes laws do anything but punish thought, that's their entire point. If I go out and kill a black guy and start screaming racial slurs I can be prosecuted under the hate crime laws. If however I go kill a white guy, I'm just a regular killer. The difference is what motivated it, the thoughts behind it.
- Khadgar, -- Lance, 04:12:19 06/16/03 Mon
In reply to: Khadgar 's message, "Question" on 21:47:56 06/15/03 Sun
Are you seriously interested or are you just being sarcastic?
If you are seriously interested in learning those statistics, I'm sure if you just type the name of each victim from that list into a seach engine such as google, hopefully you can find the information that you're looking for.
If you do, would you please post the results for all of us?
How many of the names on that list had the crimes that killed them go unprosecuted?
Hmm, since they're all classed as hate crimes (or I presume otherwise you would not of mentioned them) against gays, I'm betting they were all prosecuted right?
If you are being sarcastic I find it in extremely bad taste and disrespectful to the memories of all these people who died just because they were gay and I think you could find a more productive and less offensive manner in which to convey your views concerning HCL.
Did the offenders get less time than they would have for killing a straight white guy? Or was it the same?
I don't understand the questions but I find your use of the phrase "straight white guy" interesting. I assume you also disapprove of HCL based on race?
Exactly how would anyone know if these offenders got the same or less time than they would have for killing a straight white guy? Maybe you could explain to us how much time someone usually gets for killing a straight white guy?
All men are created equal, it's the cornerstone of a democracy. You can't say all men are equal, except these guys who are special.
Who are you referring to as "special"? The murderers or the victims? Do you think the victims are "special"?
If that is what you are saying, its very insensitive, disrespectful and callous imho and frankly I don't appreciate anyone mocking the dead on my board.
That said, your two sentences are a contradiction. In the first, you say all men are created equal then turn right around and say "you can't say all men are equal."
I am confused as to what point you are trying to get across, but I can tell you that gay people are not treated equally in the U.S. Gay people are not equal in the eyes of the law. That's why this board exists.
I don't see how you can possibly argue that hate crimes laws do anything but punish thought, that's their entire point. If I go out and kill a black guy and start screaming racial slurs I can be prosecuted under the hate crime laws. If however I go kill a white guy, I'm just a regular killer. The difference is what motivated it, the thoughts behind it.
As Eddi so eloquently pointed out, HCL applies to all races, all religions and all sexual orientations. Everyone has a racial identity not just African Americans. Everyone has a religious identity not just Jews. Everyone has a sexual identity even white, straight, fundamentalists. Those laws wouldn't just protect gays.
A hate crime is an unlawful act motivated by bias.
By using racial slurs you are demonstrating bias. If you had used racial slurs when you murdered the white guy, it would still be a hate crime because you were demonstrating bias.
When a criminal act is based on a factors such as a victim's race, gender, sexual orientation or religion, it is a hate crime.
The victim and the perpetrator are typically strangers.
The crime is not directed simply against one person; it is intended to target the victim's whole group.
These acts have been referred to as "message crimes:" violence intended to send a message to a minority within a community.
That's a hate crime.
But not all crime is based on hate.
A hate crime occurs when the perpetrator intentionally selects the victim because of who the victim is.
A hate crime affects not only the victim and their family but an entire community or category of people and their families.
Hate crimes are destructive and divisive. A random act of violence resulting in injury or even death is a tragic event that devastates the lives of the victim and their family, but the intentional selection and beating or murder of an individual because of who they are terrorizes an entire community and sometimes the nation.
Hate crimes are NOT the same as other violent crimes.
They are meant to send a message to an entire group or community.
It is a form of domestic terrorism against a particular group or religion.
Hate crime legislation does not focus on the perpetrator's ideas but rather on criminal actions based upon those ideas.
Hate Crimes do not prosecute people for what they say. People do no get arrested for saying something therefore they are not prosecuted for what they say. Everyone has explained this many times. ~Chris
Hate crimes laws DO NOT punish anyone for their thoughts, only their ACTIONS. You can think gay people should be killed all day long, but when you cross the line and act on that thought then you have broken the law...
The 'thought police' idea is simply an excuse used often by the religious wrong. It is a myth that needs to be corrected regardless of where you stand on the issue ofthese laws.
The intentions of the criminal are taken into consideration just as they are in most other crimes. Just as there is a difference between a person who kills in self defense or by accident without the intention of killing anyone, and a person who willingly commits a premeditated murder with the explicit intention of killing a person, there is a difference between a person killed during a robbery, drunken driving etc and a person killed simply because they were percieved to be gay. ~Drew
...you're worried about somebody being punished for their choice of words as they beat somebody to death?~Drew
Motive is irrelevant to conviction in ALL regular crimes... All that is required is the act and the requisite mental state (negligence, recklessness, intention). Where motive can and does come in is in sentencing... if there is a particularly nauseating or repugnant motive behind the crime, it can be taken into account at sentencing.
In New Zealand, hate crimes legislation kicks in at the sentencing stage. Last year, the law was changed to make a hate attack a MANDATORY aggravating factor. Thus, the judge has no choice but to give a more severe sentence for a hate crime. I prefer this approach to separate charges for hate crimes, because it doesnt mean what is essentially the same crime is being prosecuted differently for two different people. The hate crime element comes in AFTER guilt is determined.
And let me say that I think hate crimes DO deserve to be punished more that non hate-motivated ones. I simply don't think that this increased punishment will help stop anti-gay crime. The reason I think increased punishment IS warranted, though, is for similar reasons to those which Lance has stated: It makes a political and social point as to the unacceptability of such actions.
Why are they more unacceptable than regular crimes? Because they affect more than the victim. A hate crime is almost a form of terrorism. Its a statement of hatred towards a particular group, and intimidates and harms every member of that group who hears about that crime... The idea that there are gay bashers waiting for me in dark alleys when I go out at night does NOT make me comfortable.
So, yeah, while I'm not a fan of HCL from the perspective of their efficacy, I do think they have a role to play, in combination with other measures. ~Bester
Hate crimes legislation would in no way limit freedom of speech much less thoughts. In order for hate crime legislation to be applied in a specific case, a criminal act must first be committed.
Preaching hatred against a particular group of people such as Jews, Afro-Americans, women, gays, lesbians, etc, or stating that God hates a specific group of people have always been protected forms of speech.
Such speech is in no way a criminal act.
Freedom of speech is protected under the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. ~Lance
- Interesting -- Khadgar, 11:14:13 06/16/03 Mon
In reply to: Lance 's message, "Khadgar," on 04:12:19 06/16/03 Mon
Your ability to detect sarcasm appears flawed to say the least.
By the way, taking half a sentence and declaring it contradictory to the previous is poor debate form. If you'd read the entire sentence, you'd see that it's not contradictory at all. I presume you read and choose to ignore that.
Ah well I'm not going to get into all of your drivel so you can mis-interpret my responses, but I'll cover a couple points.
Firstly, no one is special, hence the equal protection under the law. That'd be the sarcasm you missed completely.
I disapprove of all hate crime laws, otherwise I wouldn't be arguing this would I?
I note you didn't answer the question about how severely the criminals in the cases you listed were prosecuted. You expect me to dig for that. Nah, burden of proof lies on you to prove hate crime laws are required.
Everyone has sexual orientation yes, which is precisely why the law in question is completely pointless. It's redundant, it's illegal to beat a guy to death already. What it's a bit more illegal if I beat him to death for being straight? Interesting rationale.
I find it in extremely bad taste and disrespectful to the memories of all these people who died just because they were gay
I find it in extremely bad taste and disrespectul to use their deaths to attempt to further your cause. Instead of promoting equality and education you seem to be going for more a vengence angle. Kill a gay guy and die, eye for an eye. That NEVER works. Vengence begets vengence, you'll only make it far worse by making our list of enemies longer. Look at Isreal and Palastine if you want to see how well revenge works out.
- Israel and Palestine? In a HCL discussion? Interesting indeed. LOL (NT) -- Markus, 13:47:06 06/16/03 Mon
- Reading comprehension -- Khadgar, 14:14:54 06/16/03 Mon
In reply to: Markus 's message, "Israel and Palestine? In a HCL discussion? Interesting indeed. LOL" on 13:47:06 06/16/03 Mon
Is apparently not stressed real hard here, are you going to debate the issue or not?
- Markus is a lawyer, be careful what you wish for lol. (NT) -- Mitchell, 21:36:19 06/16/03 Mon
- There's no danger of Markus posting a lengthy reply to anything. He bills by the hour! LOL! (NT) -- Sergio, 23:53:45 06/16/03 Mon
- Markus is a lawyer, be careful what you wish for lol. (NT) -- Mitchell, 21:36:19 06/16/03 Mon
- Reading is fundamental (nt) -- Khadgar, 16:22:42 06/16/03 Mon
- So are manners. (NT) -- Pepper, 01:31:33 06/17/03 Tue
- It is a perfectly good example for hate and vengence and thus valid for this discussion. It's not something someone should laugh about in order to try to take away the value of the argument! (NT) -- The Wolf, 16:41:31 06/16/03 Mon
In reply to: Markus 's message, "Israel and Palestine? In a HCL discussion? Interesting indeed. LOL" on 13:47:06 06/16/03 Mon
- Gah! everyone keeps using shitty arguments! lol. "Israelis and palestinians kill each other so this shows that hcls will engender a culture of violence????" Uh, I don't think so. (more) -- Bester, 18:01:30 06/16/03 Mon
In reply to: The Wolf 's message, "It is a perfectly good example for hate and vengence and thus valid for this discussion. It's not something someone should laugh about in order to try to take away the value of the argument!" on 16:41:31 06/16/03 Mon
The point of sarcasm is that it is engendered by INTONATION. As anyone who knows me will attest, I am a sarcastic biotch, but even I find it difficult to catch sarcasm in print unless its very obvious. I'm also a straight A lit student and an honours law student, so I doubt you can question my reading ability. Again, you're descending into questioning the intelligence and interpretive ability of the people you're debating with, which just lowers the tone entirely. Lance, Markus, Mitchell, and Chris are all very intelligent people. If lance couldn't tell if you were being sarcastic, just set him right. You dont need to lay the condescension on thick when you do it.
- Gah! everyone keeps using shitty arguments! lol. "Israelis and palestinians kill each other so this shows that hcls will engender a culture of violence????" Uh, I don't think so. (more) -- Bester, 18:01:30 06/16/03 Mon
- Reading comprehension -- Khadgar, 14:14:54 06/16/03 Mon
- Israel and Palestine? In a HCL discussion? Interesting indeed. LOL (NT) -- Markus, 13:47:06 06/16/03 Mon
- Interesting -- Khadgar, 11:14:13 06/16/03 Mon
- Khadgar, -- Lance, 04:12:19 06/16/03 Mon
- Back to you Lance -- John, 12:51:14 06/11/03 Wed
- Right, my 2 cents. I don't support hate crimes as an initial measure. cos they don't work by themselves (more inside) -- Bester, 06:07:58 06/11/03 Wed
In reply to: John 's message, "Hate Crime Laws" on 10:32:11 06/10/03 Tue
The biggest problem with hate crimes legislation, as I see it, is that they target the wrong nexus. They are an after the fact measure. The gay, black, muslim, whoever... that person has already been beaten up, robbed, or killed. An increased sentence doesn't change that fact. As a sign of societal condemnation for violence motivated by hate, then they are a good thing. As a deterrent or anything practical to decrease anti gay violence, I firmly believe that, by themselves, they do nothing or worse than nothing.
Why worse than nothing? Well, its not gonna deter offenders. The idea that a higher sentence will deter offenders requires those offenders to be able to perform a rational cost-benefit analysis. To me, the very idea of committing a crime against someone solely because they are gay is inherently irrational. You get no benefit out of a gay bashing, and the penalty is severe: possible prison time and a criminal record. These are not rational people we are talking about. Higher sentences are not what is required.
I believe more of an emphasis needs to be put on widespread education on issues surrounding anti-gay prejudice. Some people will argue that this is unrealistic and will achieve no real change. Well hate crimes legislation certainly won't. I wouldn't be against HCL in combination with such education. As for an allegation of education not affecting change... well, I can only say that I firmly believe that it can, combined with non-discrimination legislation. But even non-discrimination statutes are only of limited use: prejudiced employers, landlords, etc, can get round them. The only way to effect permanent change is to re-educate the populace. PART of this can involve legislative change, but only a small part, in my opinion. We have to target hate crimes before they happen, not afterwards.
In brief response to Lance's points:
"Until there is a broadened Federal hate crimes bill, there will be little progress towards the elimination of gays as the last socially-acceptable scapegoats for many in society. "
I can't agree with that statement. Hate crimes legislation won't directly affect social attitudes. Its a legal measure, and affects the legal treatment of the perpetrators of crimes against gays. A hate crimes bill also fails to address the nauseating homosexual advance defence, which, independently of hate crimes, needs to be legislated out of existance. "He squeezed my thigh so I had to slit his throat". Verdict? Acquitted on all charges (real case from Australia).
"Rather than making our lives more dangerous, while hate crimes bills do not directly discourage anti-gay violence, they help to create a climate of intolerance towards intolerance."
So its essentially a political, not practical, statement. As I said, I think there are more practical things that can be done before we turn to introducing hate crimes legislation.
"We shouldn't have hate crime laws because they accomplish little in punishing or deterring hate crimes. Following that rationale we shouldn't bother having a law against murder because people murder other people everyday."
Thats not even logic. What you'd have to do is compare murder rates in a jurisdiction where murder is legal to one where its not. As it stands, that statement is pure, empty rhetoric. (sorry lancie, lol)
"We owe it to their memory that they did not die in vain. They are not forgotten. Their lives had meaning and were valued. They were loved. They were human beings"
I hesitate to even comment on this, for fear of being branded an insensitive bastard. Its an utter tragedy that these people were killed, It horrifies me to see the numbers. But saying that we owe it to these people to get hate crimes legislation introduced? That if we don't they will have died in vain. That implies they were voluntary martyrs who died for the cause. They weren't. They were victims of horrible anti-gay violence. They were human beings. They're not tools for scoring political points. Come on, Lance, you know its intimidating to look that much death in the face and them oppose you. It makes me look like I don't care about their deaths, and I do! Please don't bludgeon us with that.
I hope I still have everyone's respect after that.
Eddie
- Ahem, Edward =P hehe... -- Mitchell, 08:41:35 06/11/03 Wed
In reply to: Bester 's message, "Right, my 2 cents. I don't support hate crimes as an initial measure. cos they don't work by themselves (more inside)" on 06:07:58 06/11/03 Wed
You make some very good points. Yes, it would be wonderful to have “an emphasis be put on widespread education on issues surrounding anti-gay prejudice.” I understand where you are coming from. If everyone was taught tolerance and that gay people are not degenerates laying in wait to take your children, hate crime laws most likely wouldn’t be needed. That said, this is America we are talking about, education like that is decades away. Albeit in more progressive areas of the country tolerance education my be possible, but try to run a program like that in an area like where I live and you would literality have “soccer moms rioting in the streets”. LOL!
Now, that’s not to say these “soccer moms” and such are inherently bad people, they have just been biased by an immense indoctrination of how evil gay people are by their religious leaders.
I think hate crime laws work vigorously towards the backdoor education of the masses. Just like the Morehouse incident in Atlanta, this case wouldn’t even get more than a byline in the metro section of the paper or a brief mention at the end of the nightly news. Since this case is being prosecuted as a hate crime it’s been on the front page of the paper and the leading story on the news everyday of the trial. That does a lot to wake people up, siting there in their living rooms saying, “OMG he was almost beaten to death because he looked at someone?” It really makes people think, “Is this what I want to teach my kids it’s ok to do?”
- I just finished a book by a black woman, who I "think" is gay. Anyway, she said that the only reason ANYONE cared about Matt Shepard's murder is because he was white. If he'd been black it would have just beeen another black teen lynched.. so sad. -- Kris, 11:20:27 06/11/03 Wed
In reply to: Mitchell 's message, "Ahem, Edward =P hehe..." on 08:41:35 06/11/03 Wed
Do I have a point? I dont know. It just seems to me that hate crimes legislation narrows the focus too much. Gay bashing WONT disappear over night just because its illegal to kill gays... Eddie really does say it better!
- Oh, I don’t know. Morehouse is an all black university, the boy who was attacked was black. The country seems to have sat up and taken notice. (NT) -- Mitchell, 21:42:58 06/11/03 Wed
- No gay bashing will not disappear overnight because of hate crimes laws, just as hate crimes against others have not disappeared, but it is very important to do what can be done, even if it only reduces the number of crimes it is a worthy effort. As for the authors comments... -- Drew Greyfox, 12:30:28 06/17/03 Tue
In reply to: Kris 's message, "I just finished a book by a black woman, who I "think" is gay. Anyway, she said that the only reason ANYONE cared about Matt Shepard's murder is because he was white. If he'd been black it would have just beeen another black teen lynched.. so sad." on 11:20:27 06/11/03 Wed
I don't believe race had anything to do with Matthew Shepherd. People were outraged at the brutality of it. Just look at the case of James Byrd in Texas. People were outraged at the brutality of that crime against a black man and it resulted in huge support for a hate crimes law which also included sexual orientation. In the past her statement may have been true but society has come a long way since then. (And yes, still has a long way to go.)
- Thank you Mitchell. Maybe your post will help people better understand why we need this law. (NT) -- Sergio, 13:00:40 06/11/03 Wed
In reply to: Mitchell 's message, "Ahem, Edward =P hehe..." on 08:41:35 06/11/03 Wed
- I just finished a book by a black woman, who I "think" is gay. Anyway, she said that the only reason ANYONE cared about Matt Shepard's murder is because he was white. If he'd been black it would have just beeen another black teen lynched.. so sad. -- Kris, 11:20:27 06/11/03 Wed
- I dont know why I bother to think.... Eddie says everything I am thinking and ten times MORE eloquent! Better education and better enforcement! (NT) -- Kris, 11:12:58 06/11/03 Wed
- Bester, -- Sergio, 11:56:48 06/11/03 Wed
In reply to: Bester 's message, ""Right, my 2 cents. I don't support hate crimes as an initial measure. cos they don't work by themselves (more inside)"" on 06:07:58 06/11/03 Wed
I've known Lance for a long, long time. I know the empathy he feels for these victims. I know from talking to him, how deeply these deaths affect him. I know that when I talked to him yesterday while he was looking at these names, and he had to just stop because it was too overwhelming for him. It made him so sad, it made him cry. The list isn't finished because Lance had to stop.
It's heartbreaking to read those names and have people in our government say things like "special rights" everytime hate crime laws are brought up. To have Senators compare us to every vile thing and the President officially support those statements in the press.
I am deeply disappointed in what you said to Lance in response to him posting this list of victims. "They were human beings. They're not tools for scoring political points."
To everyone on this board, to every kid who is reading this, I flatly say here and now that Lance has nothing but respect for these victims and their families and that they are not listed here as "tools for scoring political points." He wasn't trying to "score points."
The horrendous brutal deaths of these hate crime victims aren't just "word games" to Lance.
It's very sad. It's very serious. And our government doesn't care.
These names are listed here because they were murdered for being gay. They are listed here because someone, Lance, cared enough to look up their names and share this information with the rest of us.
He stated that one of the main purposes of this discussion was to educate each other about hate crimes. Has ANYONE else ever read this list of names before now?
Lance shared this information even though I know how hard it was for him to list those names. I know the emotional toll it took for him to post that list.
Anyone who has ever seen his Matthew Shepard page, his page for Robbie Kirkland, or his memorial page for Jusing the Okie, knows that Lance takes death very seriously.
He asked us not to forget them because they are all victims of hate crimes. He asked that they did not die in vain. Their own families say the exact same thing. Is anyone accusing them of using these victims to "score political points"?
I am deeply saddened by your words, Bester. I know how much it will hurt Lance when he reads them.
How any gay person can look into the face of Judy Shepard when she makes a plea for Congress to pass a Federal Hate Crime Law. How any gay person can think about the circumstances in which Matthew died, listen to his mother and still deny her some comfort by supporting a Feredal Hate Crime Law is something I will never understand.
Exactly how is supporting a Hate Crime Law going to have a detrimental effect on ANY gay person's life to the point that they have to stand up and preach against it alongside the religious right and Fred Phelps?
I know exactly what Lance means when he says "we owe it to them." Ask their families if they support a Federal Hate Crime Law. You can't ask the victims....so ask their families.
Matthew Shepard was a gay activist much like most of the people on this board. Do you think Matthew Shepard would oppose a Federal Hate Crime Law? Do you?
Do you really believe Lance would disrepect the memories of these hate crime victims just to "score some points"?
I know Lance. I know how much and how deeply he cares. It makes me very sad to know just how much those words will hurt him.
- Notice to Lance-Sergio-Bester -- John, 13:35:49 06/11/03 Wed
I'm sure Lance feels great compassion for those individuals on that list. I also feel great compassion for those individuals, but their suffering and the many thousands of others that have been killed for other reasons deserve the same compassion. A murder is a murder!
HCLs would not have saved any of them. And after all that is what this topic is about. Most of the killers of anyone are prosecuted to the full extent of the law and receive the harshest sentences.
I asked Lance and now I ask you Sergio. What HCL would have changed anything about the Mattew Shepherd case?
SERGIO'S QUOTE: "Exactly how is supporting a Hate Crime Law going to have a detrimental effect on ANY gay person's life to the point that they have to stand up and preach against it alongside the religious right and Fred Phelps?"
This gay person is against HCLs because it weakens the Constitution, and that impacts on everyone's life! And for all the other reasons I mentioned in other posts, but mainly because I hate to see valuable time and resources squandered on something that in the end doesn't produce much, when that time and energy could be used to make some huge advances in other areas that impact us much more. LIKE GAY ADOPTIONS, GAY MARRIAGES AND EQUAL SPOUSAL BENEFITS!
And how fair is it to equate my position on HCL as lining up with Phelps and the right wing wackos? I also eat and breathe as they do. Does that also put me on their side?
LANCE; YOU TOLD ME THIS BOARD DEALT WITH THE FACTS AND NOT PERSONAL ATTACKS. WELL WHEN PEOPLE START LINING ME UP WITH THAT DEGENERATE, BIGOTED, DESPICABLE, PHELPS, BECAUSE THAT IS THEIR RESPONSE TO THIS TOPIC, I CONSIDER THAT A PERSONAL ATTACK AND I'M SORRY LANCE, BUT APPARENTLY THINGS ARE ALREADY DEGENERATING TO A LOW LEVEL AND I FOR ONE DON'T INTEND TO BE A PART OF IT.
It could have proven an interesting discussion, but as of now I've had my say and will regretfully bow out.
I made this position quite clear when you first asked me to discuss this on your board, and I also included it in my introduction to the board. I tried to present the facts as I see them without any disparaging remarks. I tried to be considerate and still get the point across, but I am very thin skinned about certain things. And being included in anyway with Phelps is just downright unacceptable. Think what you will of me but those are my feelings and you knew them before this debate. Hope we can still be friends and if you want to discuss anything on a chat, I'll be happy to do so.
Later..........................John
- John, I am so sorry. I should have been more careful in my wording. I didn't mean to imply that you or anyone else in this discussion are in any way like Fred Phelps in character, actions, words or thoughts. You seem like a very nice man, and I am mortified that I offended you. Please accept my sincerest apology. I am very sorry that I came across in such an offensive manner. (NT) -- Sergio, 17:05:53 06/11/03 Wed
- With all due respect John, and no insult intended, you didn't exactly uphold the same high standard that you expect of others. You told Lance that in effect people who wanted HCL "appear to be whining individuals who are demanding special treatment, which they are" While I am pointing it out to you, I don't see anyone taking offense and yelling at you for it. -- Pete, 18:46:10 06/11/03 Wed
- First off, if anyone is going to attack you it WON’T be Sergio. Sergio would never intentionally insult you. I know how big hearted he is and I’m sure he’s in agony for offending you. -- Mitchell, 21:09:14 06/11/03 Wed
- Wow... emotional blackmail much? -- Bester, 16:09:28 06/11/03 Wed
- You heartless bitch!!! Don’t talk in “NZ context” to me!!! I’m an American Damn it! Until they find a way to grind up sheep and put them in my gas tank, you think I give a flying flip about some bump in the road, wana be Australia, country like NZ??? LMAO!!! -- Mitchell, 21:35:25 06/11/03 Wed
- hey, aint no one grinding me! Lol. And you're probably right that my view would be different, but I still don't see how HCL protects! It punishes (which is good) after the fact. It doesnt protect. (NT) -- Bester, 21:47:28 06/11/03 Wed
- Am I going to have to draw you a picture??? Don’t make me get out the crayons!!!! Cause I can tell you right now, IT WON’T BE PRETTY!!! (NT) -- Mitchell, 22:40:34 06/11/03 Wed
- ·.,¸,·.*,¸·´*¯`·*´"¯)`'·.*,¸·´*¯`·(¯`*¸,¸,.·*´*(¯`'·.,(....::steals ur crayons::....¸,*.·*'´¯)¸,*.·*'´¯)¯`'*·¸*(¯`'·.*,¸·´*¯`·)¯`'·.,¸·* (NT) -- (¯`'·.,¸(¯`'·.,¸·´¯`·jErEmY·´¯`·,.·'´¯)¸,.·'´¯), 00:27:00 06/15/03 Sun
- ·.,¸,·.*,¸·´*¯`·*´"¯)`'·.*,¸·´*¯`·(¯`*¸,¸,.·*´*(¯`'·.,(....::Steals Jeremy’s ..... What is this stuff anyhow? Sparkles? ::....¸,*.·*'´¯)¸,*.·*'´¯)¯`'*·¸*(¯`'·.*,¸·´*¯`·)¯`'·.,¸·* (NT) -- Mitchell, 01:16:29 06/15/03 Sun
- ·.,¸,·.*,¸·´*¯`·*´"¯)`'·.*,¸·´*¯`·(¯`*¸,¸,.·*´*(¯`'·.,(....::steals ur crayons::....¸,*.·*'´¯)¸,*.·*'´¯)¯`'*·¸*(¯`'·.*,¸·´*¯`·)¯`'·.,¸·* (NT) -- (¯`'·.,¸(¯`'·.,¸·´¯`·jErEmY·´¯`·,.·'´¯)¸,.·'´¯), 00:27:00 06/15/03 Sun
- Am I going to have to draw you a picture??? Don’t make me get out the crayons!!!! Cause I can tell you right now, IT WON’T BE PRETTY!!! (NT) -- Mitchell, 22:40:34 06/11/03 Wed
- hey, aint no one grinding me! Lol. And you're probably right that my view would be different, but I still don't see how HCL protects! It punishes (which is good) after the fact. It doesnt protect. (NT) -- Bester, 21:47:28 06/11/03 Wed
- You heartless bitch!!! Don’t talk in “NZ context” to me!!! I’m an American Damn it! Until they find a way to grind up sheep and put them in my gas tank, you think I give a flying flip about some bump in the road, wana be Australia, country like NZ??? LMAO!!! -- Mitchell, 21:35:25 06/11/03 Wed
- {{hugs sergio}} why are people being almost violent just because they dont agree about hate crime laws -- -- :*~*:. .:*~*:. ..:*~*:. . { JASON } . .:*~*:. .:*~*:. :*~*:., 16:56:00 06/11/03 Wed
- Aww jason, I'd never yell at you. I'm sorry things have got a bit heated, I really didnt intend them to get that way. **hugz**. Maybe I'll take a little break from posting until things cool down, I dunno. I didnt mean to hurt anyone. (NT) -- Bester, 17:03:59 06/11/03 Wed
- Jason... -- Pete, 18:15:13 06/11/03 Wed
- Notice to Lance-Sergio-Bester -- John, 13:35:49 06/11/03 Wed
- Hmph..interesting... -- Eddi, 04:22:27 06/15/03 Sun
- Hmph..... -- Eddi, 04:34:20 06/15/03 Sun
- Compare the attitude to women now to 50 years ago. Attitude to black people, asians, jews... its not perfect, but it has improved, and legislation CANNOT achieve that by itself. Education and social change is a HUGE part of it. Don't diss education. (NT) -- Bester, 18:05:30 06/16/03 Mon
- yet, without the legislation. THe education might never starts. Without the law to desegreate, there are still a strong possiblity that US is still segregated. THe law will be a push to the educatoin to the btetter..and didn't we talk about this? the education of United states..hehe =) (NT) -- eddi, 00:42:00 06/19/03 Thu
- Compare the attitude to women now to 50 years ago. Attitude to black people, asians, jews... its not perfect, but it has improved, and legislation CANNOT achieve that by itself. Education and social change is a HUGE part of it. Don't diss education. (NT) -- Bester, 18:05:30 06/16/03 Mon
- Ahem, Edward =P hehe... -- Mitchell, 08:41:35 06/11/03 Wed
- lance is having computer problems and will respond as soon as he can (NT) -- crvboy, 09:43:50 06/11/03 Wed
- Basically, I agree with John, and I can't say anymore than Bester already did. -- Alie, 15:47:33 06/11/03 Wed
- Hey y'all...the "resident Republican" is seeking information...not participating in the debate. Can someone tell me just what a Hate Crimes Law provides? (NT) -- Geoff, 00:26:50 06/12/03 Thu
- In broad terms, if the crime is hate motivated, ie, because the victim was black, Jew, etc., or in this case gay. Additional penalties are imposed. (NT) -- Mitchell, 00:39:11 06/12/03 Thu
- I understand that, Mitchell, but what does it provide? Are there additional penalties, or such as that? (NT) -- Geoff, 01:15:57 06/12/03 Thu
- HCL are different from state to state, city to city, which is another reason we need a uniform Federal HCL. (more) -- Lance, 08:53:42 06/12/03 Thu
- ALSO... with a federal HCL ... -- Lance, 09:03:02 06/12/03 Thu
- HCL are different from state to state, city to city, which is another reason we need a uniform Federal HCL. (more) -- Lance, 08:53:42 06/12/03 Thu
- Oops...I didn't read it fully... -- Geoff, 01:18:46 06/12/03 Thu
- I have another question, Mitchell... -- Geoff, 04:22:55 06/12/03 Thu
- I understand that, Mitchell, but what does it provide? Are there additional penalties, or such as that? (NT) -- Geoff, 01:15:57 06/12/03 Thu
- In broad terms, if the crime is hate motivated, ie, because the victim was black, Jew, etc., or in this case gay. Additional penalties are imposed. (NT) -- Mitchell, 00:39:11 06/12/03 Thu
- ::Comes dancing in:: My internet was out yesterday (and so was I. haha!) -- Lance, 09:49:04 06/12/03 Thu
- Ok, I guess I owe it to all to explain my opinion on this subject. ... -- Geoff, 14:20:25 06/12/03 Thu
- Hate crime laws do not prosecute anyone for what they say or think. (NT) -- Chris, 16:26:40 06/12/03 Thu
- They don't? Hmmmm....according to what both Lance and Mitchell told me in this very thread, if a perpetrator uses such words while committing a horrible crime, then it becomes a Hate crime, and additional penalties apply. Mitchell said that in the Morehouse case, and additional five years could have been given. Thats prosecuting someone for what they say, as I see it.. (NT) -- Geoff, 17:32:55 06/12/03 Thu
- Hate crime laws do not prosecute anyone for what they say or think. (NT) -- Chris, 16:26:40 06/12/03 Thu
- I have not read the board in days and have not read all the replies here so excuse me if I am repeating someone else, but...hate crimes laws DO NOT punish anyone for their thoughts, only their ACTIONS. You can think gay people should be killed all day long, but when you cross the line and act on that thought then you have broken the law... -- Drew Greyfox, 16:18:48 06/12/03 Thu
- I don't see it that way, Drew. ... -- Geoff, 16:30:24 06/12/03 Thu
- So you're worried about somebody being punished for their choice of words as they beat somebody to death? (NT) -- Drew Greyfox, 16:56:53 06/12/03 Thu
- Sorry Geoff, the point you made is simply legally incorrect... -- Bester, 17:42:59 06/12/03 Thu
- Thank you Bester. That was very well spoken. (NT) -- Chris, 19:54:31 06/12/03 Thu
- Sorry Bester, YOU miss my point entirely, or choose to...but that's your choice, and others. I've said all I'm gonna say. (NT) -- Geoff, 20:23:49 06/12/03 Thu
- Awwww don’t get all pouty Geoff LOL! Did you not expect a dissenting opinion? LOL! -- Mitchell, 21:10:13 06/12/03 Thu
- Mitchell, I sent you an email, but I've decided to post it here as well... -- Geoff, 21:25:08 06/12/03 Thu
- Talked out?? Oh, we haven't even begun to talk about this issue. And trust, me, no one is trying to change anyone's minds. But the kids, the adults, who post and lurk here deserve to know exactly what this is about so that when some ignorant jerk at the family reunion starts in about it, they'll be armed to the teeth with some intelligent responses of their choice. heh heh Education is a wonderful and powerful thing. (NT) -- Lance, 01:34:34 06/13/03 Fri
- You missed the point Lance...I said that *I* am talked out, not anybody else. (NT) -- Geoff, 07:01:52 06/13/03 Fri
- Talked out?? Oh, we haven't even begun to talk about this issue. And trust, me, no one is trying to change anyone's minds. But the kids, the adults, who post and lurk here deserve to know exactly what this is about so that when some ignorant jerk at the family reunion starts in about it, they'll be armed to the teeth with some intelligent responses of their choice. heh heh Education is a wonderful and powerful thing. (NT) -- Lance, 01:34:34 06/13/03 Fri
- Mitchell, I sent you an email, but I've decided to post it here as well... -- Geoff, 21:25:08 06/12/03 Thu
- Awwww don’t get all pouty Geoff LOL! Did you not expect a dissenting opinion? LOL! -- Mitchell, 21:10:13 06/12/03 Thu
- I don't see it that way, Drew. ... -- Geoff, 16:30:24 06/12/03 Thu
- Ok, I've expressed my opinion, and said all I'm gonna say about this. To each his own. Peace and love to all. (NT) -- Geoff, 17:35:27 06/12/03 Thu
- Hate Crime Laws would lead to unequal protection! -- The average guy next door, 17:47:23 06/12/03 Thu
- *grins* I wont comment except to say that your constant use of the word homosexual and putting 'gay' in inverted commas says a lot about your attitude towards gay people in general (NT) -- Bester, 17:59:42 06/12/03 Thu
- Talk about bringing up arbitrary facts to make your point. No one is saying any crime against a homosexual is a hate crime. (NT) -- Mitchell, 20:42:55 06/12/03 Thu
- Well I guess we're getting our daily allowance of misinformation today... -- Drew Greyfox, 14:37:53 06/13/03 Fri
- Adding to Lance's post. -- Chris, 21:10:29 06/12/03 Thu
- Adam Colton, a senior at San Marin High School in Novato, Calif., was attacked in the parking lot of a local supermarket on the evening of Feb. 12. Carved into the flesh of his stomach and arms with a pen was the word “fag.” It was the second time this school year that the 17-year-old student was attacked after forming the Gay-Straight Alliance on campus and declaring that he was gay. (NT) -- jErEmY, 22:13:43 06/12/03 Thu
- awwwwwww *hugs* Don't get all sad on me jailbait. Cheer up little emo kid. (NT) -- Lance, 01:36:52 06/13/03 Fri
- Chris. You did an awesome thing. I know how hard that was. I'm so damn proud of you. *hugs* (NT) -- Lance, 01:38:18 06/13/03 Fri
- Adam Colton, a senior at San Marin High School in Novato, Calif., was attacked in the parking lot of a local supermarket on the evening of Feb. 12. Carved into the flesh of his stomach and arms with a pen was the word “fag.” It was the second time this school year that the 17-year-old student was attacked after forming the Gay-Straight Alliance on campus and declaring that he was gay. (NT) -- jErEmY, 22:13:43 06/12/03 Thu
- In reply to Johns response to my response to John's post HAHAAAA!! -- Lance, 01:29:10 06/13/03 Fri
- Lance, you're so damn cute when you get all fired up! Heh heh. I must say, that was epic! I laughed, I cried, I think I saw God once or twice!! Thanks for the entertainment value and sharing your opinions! I know how shy you are about telling anyone what you REEEEALLY think! LOL!! You've just a wild man, Lance! BTW - I particularly enjoyed the ENORMOUS TOOL and whip parts! yeee hah! ROTFLMFAO! (NT) -- Markus, 15:14:40 06/13/03 Fri
- John, I'd just like to say welcome. It looks like you have an admirer in our resident rawk star! Lucky you! You know, all that teasing and argument is just foreplay to Lance! LOL! If he gets too sassy, I recommend handcuffs!! They'll work wonders on an attitude adjustment for him! LMAO! J/k I just wanted you to know that I particulary enjoyed both your opening and your response. I like the way you present your information. -- Markus, 15:30:39 06/13/03 Fri
- Lance, you're so damn cute when you get all fired up! Heh heh. I must say, that was epic! I laughed, I cried, I think I saw God once or twice!! Thanks for the entertainment value and sharing your opinions! I know how shy you are about telling anyone what you REEEEALLY think! LOL!! You've just a wild man, Lance! BTW - I particularly enjoyed the ENORMOUS TOOL and whip parts! yeee hah! ROTFLMFAO! (NT) -- Markus, 15:14:40 06/13/03 Fri
- I hestitate to post this cos I don't want to offend anyone, so I'll apologise in advance if I do (more) -- Bester, 03:11:37 06/13/03 Fri
- It does offend me. For you to put in quotes as though one of us actually said "all thiese people died form hate crimes, so we should have HCL" offends the Hell out of me. You show me where ANYONE on this discussion said that? HERE IS WHY WE SHOULD HAVE HCL. Read it carefully one more time. I'm not trying to change your mind, but by God, don't misquote me or Chris. -- Lance, 09:31:21 06/13/03 Fri
- Some of the people who posted that oppose HCL say everything would be fine if the laws we currently have were enforced but they don't give any information on how they expect that to happen. I'd really like to hear HOW they expect laws to be enforced with homophobic policemen? (more) -- Pepper, 14:34:59 06/14/03 Sat
- Tragic cases, no doubt about that, and the conduct is indefensibe, but how would a Hate Crime Law have prevented these? (NT) -- Geoff, 15:10:37 06/14/03 Sat
- Your missing the point now Geoff. What she is saying is, without federal oversight, who is going to force a homophobic police department to enforce existing laws when committed against a gay person? (NT) -- Mitchell, 15:30:45 06/14/03 Sat
- Here's how... -- Pepper, 15:53:54 06/14/03 Sat
- Hmmm...Sounds ideal, but I doubt it would deter anyone who is so disposed. Besides, we already have such a Federal Law, its called Violating the Civil Rights of a citizen. that hasn't had much effect on such horrible actions by hateful people. (NT) -- Geoff, 16:04:19 06/14/03 Sat
- I totally disagree. Knowing that the victim can contact the FBI and initiate a full scale federal investigation will most certainly detere a lot of potentional gay bashing policeman especially in small rural areas where the victim has no one to turn to. But also in large corrupt city police depts. where gay bashing has been an accepted way of life for decades. I have a question for you. -- Pepper, 16:46:23 06/14/03 Sat
- Why? Because IMO it is unnecessary, and unequal. ALL crime is horrible, not just SOME crimes. .. -- Geoff, 17:53:29 06/14/03 Sat
- Unnecessary? Thought control? Please explain and educate everyone. (NT) -- Pepper, 21:39:30 06/14/03 Sat
- And please respond to my earlier post: Please explain to me how having a Federal Hate Crime Law would affect your life in a bad way. I'd really like to know. (NT) -- Pepper, 21:42:27 06/14/03 Sat
- Pepper, how such a law would affect me personally is irrelavant. But to me, the law is immutable, and must apply to all equally. If you can't grasp that concept, that's your problem. (NT) -- Geoff, 13:40:23 06/15/03 Sun
- It's my problem? LOL Well, that's a convenient way to evade a direct answer. You still did not answer anything that I asked you. Surely you know the answers so, why not share with them with everyone instead of telling me it's my "problem" that I don't understand why you are making these statements? Lance and others patiently answered your questions, and you had quite a few. Why won't you answer mine? -- Pepper, 17:18:19 06/15/03 Sun
- That's wasnt a very nice thing to say to Pepper. Lets all be nice, shall we? Hate Crime Laws do apply to everyone equally regardless of race, religion, or sexual identity. As Princess Eddi pointed out, everyone has a racial identity, a religious identity, and a sexual identity, even white, straight, fundamentalists. (NT) -- Markus, 17:38:27 06/15/03 Sun
- Pepper, how such a law would affect me personally is irrelavant. But to me, the law is immutable, and must apply to all equally. If you can't grasp that concept, that's your problem. (NT) -- Geoff, 13:40:23 06/15/03 Sun
- And please respond to my earlier post: Please explain to me how having a Federal Hate Crime Law would affect your life in a bad way. I'd really like to know. (NT) -- Pepper, 21:42:27 06/14/03 Sat
- At the risk of beating a dead horse, hate crimes laws have NOTHING, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with "thought control"... -- Drew Greyfox, 17:30:39 06/18/03 Wed
- I'm sorry, but your "facts" are fiction -- The Wolf, 20:07:44 06/18/03 Wed
- Unnecessary? Thought control? Please explain and educate everyone. (NT) -- Pepper, 21:39:30 06/14/03 Sat
- Why? Because IMO it is unnecessary, and unequal. ALL crime is horrible, not just SOME crimes. .. -- Geoff, 17:53:29 06/14/03 Sat
- I totally disagree. Knowing that the victim can contact the FBI and initiate a full scale federal investigation will most certainly detere a lot of potentional gay bashing policeman especially in small rural areas where the victim has no one to turn to. But also in large corrupt city police depts. where gay bashing has been an accepted way of life for decades. I have a question for you. -- Pepper, 16:46:23 06/14/03 Sat
- Hmmm...Sounds ideal, but I doubt it would deter anyone who is so disposed. Besides, we already have such a Federal Law, its called Violating the Civil Rights of a citizen. that hasn't had much effect on such horrible actions by hateful people. (NT) -- Geoff, 16:04:19 06/14/03 Sat
- The question has to be whether in an environment with homophobic police, will a potential hate crime be reported as such? If the initial investigation is deliberately biased, the feds will never become involved, and HCL cannot and will not stop individual prejudice within the police force. (NT) -- Bester, 15:43:50 06/14/03 Sat
- The victim won't have to report it to the police. With a Federal Hate Crime Law, they can report it directly to the FBI. (NT) -- Pepper, 15:56:51 06/14/03 Sat
- Exactly. With LLEEA once the state has completed prosecution (or declined to prosecute), the Justice Department can initiate a subsequent prosecution. (NT) -- Dante, 16:04:18 06/14/03 Sat
- The victim won't have to report it to the police. With a Federal Hate Crime Law, they can report it directly to the FBI. (NT) -- Pepper, 15:56:51 06/14/03 Sat
- Tragic cases, no doubt about that, and the conduct is indefensibe, but how would a Hate Crime Law have prevented these? (NT) -- Geoff, 15:10:37 06/14/03 Sat
- I had to run an errand Lance. Here's my my opinion. -- TheEggman, 18:06:05 06/14/03 Sat
- hmph... -- Eddi, 04:28:42 06/15/03 Sun
- Counter... -- Eddi, 04:50:48 06/15/03 Sun
- Eddi you make an excellent point in #4. Everybody has a sexual orientation. Everybody has a race just as everybody has a religion (or they are atheists) that means that EVERYONE is protected under these hate crime laws! The Princess has just added a whole lot more ammo to the argument in favor of HCL. (NT) -- Markus, 11:54:10 06/15/03 Sun
- In regard to gay bashing by police I wanted to share the following story. I8 year old boy assaulted by off duty police officer who called him "faggot" as he inflicted a severe beating on the 115 pound teen ager. -- Dan, 17:31:03 06/15/03 Sun
- Dan, I agree with you completely.... -- Geoff, 17:41:38 06/15/03 Sun
- Nothing tackles homophobia better than having the FBI come in and send half of them off to prison for a few years. Best “training” I can think of! (NT) -- Mitchell, 23:06:31 06/15/03 Sun
- Without an investigation from an independent law enforcement agency with power over this dept. who will ever MAKE them own up to this crime, much less give them "training"? Exactly how do you envision getting these entire homophobic police depts to take "training"? Do you think homophobic cops will just volunteer to take training on how to not beat the shit out of gay kids? And the "orientation" of the victim was the reason for the crime so its not "regardless." It's VERY relevent. (NT) -- Lance, 02:26:59 06/16/03 Mon
- You see. The entire police dept. is implicated. With a federal HCL the FBI would be there investigating instead of leaving the victims attorney pleading for state and local police to PLEASE investigate. How can they investigate themselves when they are being named as defendants? That's just too ridiculous for words. They need an impartial federal investigation, not the good old boy's club covering everything up, destroying evidence, and closing ranks. (NT) -- Pepper, 17:44:55 06/15/03 Sun
- Ok, I can see how giving federal oversight works in the US context. It would be an effective measure. But it wouldnt stop the bias of the police for at large. Again, my argument is that HCL will not work BY ITSELF. It needs to be combined with a concerted movement for societal change, and probably police training practices as well (NT) -- Bester, 18:18:14 06/16/03 Mon
- I think everyone who is for HCL totally agrees with you that HCL will not work by themselves. (NT) -- -- :*~*:. .:*~*:. ..:*~*:. . { JASON } . .:*~*:. .:*~*:. :*~*:., 18:45:49 06/16/03 Mon
- Actually, no. I can point to at least 2 posts that state education is unrealistic and won't work. (NT) -- Bester, 18:56:03 06/16/03 Mon
- oops my bad! lol ok most everybody will agree. hows that? n e way i agree. lol lol (NT) -- -- :*~*:. .:*~*:. ..:*~*:. . { JASON } . .:*~*:. .:*~*:. :*~*:., 19:28:08 06/16/03 Mon
- Lol, cool jason. Thanks :). (NT) -- Bester, 19:38:22 06/16/03 Mon
- oops my bad! lol ok most everybody will agree. hows that? n e way i agree. lol lol (NT) -- -- :*~*:. .:*~*:. ..:*~*:. . { JASON } . .:*~*:. .:*~*:. :*~*:., 19:28:08 06/16/03 Mon
- Actually, no. I can point to at least 2 posts that state education is unrealistic and won't work. (NT) -- Bester, 18:56:03 06/16/03 Mon
- I think everyone who is for HCL totally agrees with you that HCL will not work by themselves. (NT) -- -- :*~*:. .:*~*:. ..:*~*:. . { JASON } . .:*~*:. .:*~*:. :*~*:., 18:45:49 06/16/03 Mon
- Ok, I can see how giving federal oversight works in the US context. It would be an effective measure. But it wouldnt stop the bias of the police for at large. Again, my argument is that HCL will not work BY ITSELF. It needs to be combined with a concerted movement for societal change, and probably police training practices as well (NT) -- Bester, 18:18:14 06/16/03 Mon
- Dan, I agree with you completely.... -- Geoff, 17:41:38 06/15/03 Sun
- FBI Guidelines. The FBI Hate/Bias Motivation Guidlines to law enforcement agencies for determining what constitutes a hate crime: -- Robb, 07:42:53 06/16/03 Mon
- A couple people were looking for this information earlier. A perfect example of where a Federal HCL could have been useful was in the Matthew Shepard case. -- Sergio, 14:21:54 06/16/03 Mon
- Why do we need a specific Hate Crime Law? -- The Wolf, 15:13:07 06/16/03 Mon
- Rich and I have been following the discussion with great interest for days, and I'm sad to see it disrupted by one or two individuals. We have found it to be very informative on both sides of the issue. I personally to do not favor HCLs in general, but until they are repealed, I believe gays should be included. (NT) -- Mike, 18:12:07 06/16/03 Mon
- Why? Why? Why? -- John, 18:35:13 06/16/03 Mon
- you asked for the debate..and debate is two side argument. And i have not seen any facts that you stated, no stats nor quotes. If you don't mind you can point out which post is it. And the truth you believe in is not the ultimate truth..if you think what you believe is right then don't even bother with debating because its pointless. And calm down. (NT) -- eddi, 18:52:54 06/17/03 Tue
- John gave quite a few facts in his early posts, but unfortunately he became a victim of something that happens quite often on this board -- The Wolf, 22:23:26 06/17/03 Tue
- fuck off asshole (NT) -- wolfie, 22:47:17 06/17/03 Tue
- Thanks Wolf- I appreciate the kind comments. Wish there were others that were as civil. (NT) -- John, 04:39:25 06/18/03 Wed
- To Eddie with my deepest sympathy for the loss of your sight -- John, 23:50:26 06/17/03 Tue
- ...im...blinnnnnnnnnnnnd.....and *look whos talking!* that comes from someone who can't even spell my name right!..hahha -- EDDI......not eddie..not ed..but EDDI, 05:04:21 06/18/03 Wed
- OH and by the way, Mr. John. Why don't you try to counter MY ARGUMENT listed up there..yeah look up..scroll up..ailttle more..you see the one says COUNTER. YEAH..thats it....good job! (NT) -- Eddi...not eddie!..or ED..or EDI!, 05:20:32 06/18/03 Wed
- John gave quite a few facts in his early posts, but unfortunately he became a victim of something that happens quite often on this board -- The Wolf, 22:23:26 06/17/03 Tue
- you asked for the debate..and debate is two side argument. And i have not seen any facts that you stated, no stats nor quotes. If you don't mind you can point out which post is it. And the truth you believe in is not the ultimate truth..if you think what you believe is right then don't even bother with debating because its pointless. And calm down. (NT) -- eddi, 18:52:54 06/17/03 Tue
- Here's an article that I thought everyone might find interesting. -- Tiani, 19:03:04 06/16/03 Mon
- According to Judy Shepard, "I can assure opponents of this legislation firsthand, it was not words or thoughts, but violent actions that killed my son." (NT) -- -- :*~*:. .:*~*:. ..:*~*:. . { JASON } . .:*~*:. .:*~*:. :*~*:., 19:13:31 06/16/03 Mon
- And those violent actions are already against the law, aren't they? So why create a new law? (NT) -- The Wolf, 19:59:29 06/16/03 Mon
- Well according to Cmdr. David O'Malley of the Laramie, Wyo., Police Department, who worked on the investigation -- Sergio, 20:10:36 06/16/03 Mon
- As I said in my other post, the police has to be better trained, educated and above all paid! Then they will also be more motivated to prosecute crimes and enforce the existing laws! (NT) -- The Wolf, 21:04:31 06/16/03 Mon
- What Sergio is saying is the police department didn’t have the money to pay the investigators. The county that I live in is a good example of this. The sheriff’s department has been begging for more money for years. The county commissioners are afraid that if they raise property taxes to properly fund the sheriff’s department, they won’t get reelected. (NT) -- Mitchell, 21:34:24 06/16/03 Mon
- How to train the police? smear the donuts over the book, maybe they can catch a few words while they are licking....a very lame joke from eddi..not ed, not edi, not eddie..but EDDi (NT) -- EDDI, 05:06:47 06/18/03 Wed
- Sensitivity training and extra pay does nothing to motivate prejudiced and hateful individuals and departments in law enforcement to follow the law... -- Drew Greyfox, 14:52:34 06/18/03 Wed
- I said it before, I'll say it again -- The Wolf, 15:08:27 06/18/03 Wed
- I also said it b4, and I will say it again -- Eddi, 01:22:09 06/19/03 Thu
- not true -- Drew Greyfox, 11:18:09 06/19/03 Thu
- I said it before, I'll say it again -- The Wolf, 15:08:27 06/18/03 Wed
- As I said in my other post, the police has to be better trained, educated and above all paid! Then they will also be more motivated to prosecute crimes and enforce the existing laws! (NT) -- The Wolf, 21:04:31 06/16/03 Mon
- Well according to Cmdr. David O'Malley of the Laramie, Wyo., Police Department, who worked on the investigation -- Sergio, 20:10:36 06/16/03 Mon
- And those violent actions are already against the law, aren't they? So why create a new law? (NT) -- The Wolf, 19:59:29 06/16/03 Mon
- According to Judy Shepard, "I can assure opponents of this legislation firsthand, it was not words or thoughts, but violent actions that killed my son." (NT) -- -- :*~*:. .:*~*:. ..:*~*:. . { JASON } . .:*~*:. .:*~*:. :*~*:., 19:13:31 06/16/03 Mon
- Here's an article that isn't about HCL. It's just about Matthew Shepard. Maybe some would like to read it. It's very sad. Sobbing Shepards Reject Henderson Apology -- -- :*~*:. .:*~*:. ..:*~*:. . { JASON } . .:*~*:. .:*~*:. :*~*:., 19:32:01 06/16/03 Mon
- Just thought i'd jump in now that everybody's good and damned tired of talking about this...lol. *John, please read this. seriously* -- Josh, 01:02:29 06/18/03 Wed
- Josh, a voice of reason.... -- John, 03:32:24 06/18/03 Wed
- Josh, a voice of reason.... -- John, 03:33:32 06/18/03 Wed
- CRY ON!!! BITCH!...=P..*hugz joshie..*.. u know I love ya! =) (NT) -- Once again, EDDI, not eddie, nor ed, or edi..., 05:09:52 06/18/03 Wed
- You are SUCH a liarmouth!! And you KNOW it! I totally kicked your ass on the last HC debate and when all the smoke cleared, you were FOR hate crime laws now you ...you...you're undecided?? Did you backslide or what? Are we going to have to do some all night IM discussions? Am I going to have to interrupt your sex life? Don't think I wont! ::in my best Samuel Jackson voice:: Don't make me have to come down there and get medieval on yo ass! (more) -- Lance, 09:00:41 06/20/03 Fri
- "...attorney general/rawk star-in-chief..." Like hell! You'll be first lady!!! (NT) -- Mitchell, 14:21:06 06/20/03 Fri
- Adding to the elephant. -- Lamar, 22:45:20 06/18/03 Wed
- my thoughts.... -- Eddi, 00:01:03 06/19/03 Thu
- A car accident is not a violent crime and won't be prosecuted as one (unless it was an intentional hit, then it would probably be an attack with a deadly weapon) -- The Wolf, 00:50:13 06/19/03 Thu
- Equal protection of the law protects everyone under the crime but it does not protect crime committed based on discimination. Someone can kill someone because of wrong place wrong time, or he can be disciminating him being white and planned the murder. With your rational, they shall be charge with the same crime. Matthew Sheapard would be alive or not, I do not know. Possiblity is he will still be killed. ..(more) -- Eddi, 01:29:25 06/19/03 Thu
- OH shut the hell up eddi, you're blind as a bat! HAHAHAAAAAAA! (NT) -- Lance, 08:18:16 06/19/03 Thu
- Equal protection of the law protects everyone under the crime but it does not protect crime committed based on discimination. Someone can kill someone because of wrong place wrong time, or he can be disciminating him being white and planned the murder. With your rational, they shall be charge with the same crime. Matthew Sheapard would be alive or not, I do not know. Possiblity is he will still be killed. ..(more) -- Eddi, 01:29:25 06/19/03 Thu
- A car accident is not a violent crime and won't be prosecuted as one (unless it was an intentional hit, then it would probably be an attack with a deadly weapon) -- The Wolf, 00:50:13 06/19/03 Thu
- Welcome Lamar -- -- Dano, 10:30:17 06/19/03 Thu
- OMG Lance!!!!! You invited another one??? Have you not learned your lesson??? LMAO!!! It’s my job to administer the newly required mental stability examination. Please remove all your clothes and lie back in the couch. LMAO!!! -- Mitchell, 10:40:10 06/19/03 Thu
- LMAO! smart ass! (NT) -- Lance, 10:43:00 06/19/03 Thu
- MENTAL STABILITY EXAMINATION! ROTFLMAO. No problem. I can fake normal for short periods of time! LOL (NT) -- Lamar, 23:30:25 06/19/03 Thu
- Hey, you're already one step ahead of Lance then LOL (NT) -- Drew Greyfox, 11:18:37 06/20/03 Fri
- Re: adding to the elephant.... HAHAHAAAA! Hey I got your elephant right here mister. -- Lance, 10:40:26 06/19/03 Thu
- This is just a minor point -- Josh, 11:33:57 06/19/03 Thu
- OK. It's a political philosophy not to have any more laws. The last time I heard that old "live and let live" bullshit was during "The Laramie Project." Keep repeating it to yourself while someone's beating you to death while you're tied to a fence and you'll see that not everyone else suscribes to it. It's like the people in Iraq joining hands and singing "Give Peace A Chance" while bombs are dropping all around them. I mean come on! -- Lance, 08:08:15 06/20/03 Fri
- Did you just offer me a naked pic? I think I'm liking this debate thing more all the time! LOL (NT) -- Lamar, 23:17:25 06/19/03 Thu
- This is just a minor point -- Josh, 11:33:57 06/19/03 Thu
- Hi there. Welcome to the board. I'm doing a lot of surfing today so I'm gonna jump right in and give my rebuttal to your post... -- Drew Greyfox, 12:01:16 06/19/03 Thu
- my thoughts.... -- Eddi, 00:01:03 06/19/03 Thu
- I think somebody asked to see some studies...... -- E.J., 22:09:15 06/19/03 Thu
- Thank all of yall for the welcome. I figured any friends of lance's are gonna be cool even if he's so lame an such a total loser. lol. He couldnt argue his way out of a paper bag! I'm gonna answer all yall's questions sooner or later but mos likey later lol so just hold on an be patient an i'll git to ya maybe. -- Lamar, 23:11:27 06/19/03 Thu
- Nice theories, but not based in much fact... -- Drew Greyfox, 11:54:36 06/20/03 Fri
- Repeating your arguments and "facts" again and again doesn't make them right -- The Wolf, 13:23:30 06/20/03 Fri
- So show me the facts Wolf, show me real examples that prove that HCL's violate free speech or Constitutional rights. So far I've only heard theoretical arguments against them with very little or no actual proof... -- Drew Greyfox, 14:03:01 06/20/03 Fri
- OK Drew, I'll take you up on that (more) -- Bester, 17:10:37 06/20/03 Fri
- Hope you don’t mind if I jump in here for a sec Bester & Drew. (more) -- Dano, 19:45:30 06/20/03 Fri
- well... -- Tom, 20:57:57 06/20/03 Fri
- I have no hard facts on professionalism or otherwise of the FBI. I'm not American, I don't know. My point is simply that legislation cannot combat individual homophobia within a police force, and that its simply incorrect to say that it can. I would also make the point that FBI oversight is not a universal panacea for all ills (more) -- Bester, 02:21:48 06/21/03 Sat
- I'm sorry if I upset you. No one is suggesting that a HCL is the universal panacea for all ills or that it will totally eradicate homophobia in police forces, I'm merely saying that it will help not hinder. It's a big step in the right direction. I believe everything Lance listed to be true. Since you disagree, then maybe you know something I don't know. I'm sorry if I upset you for asking. I was just trying to understand why you believe as you do. I apologize. (NT) -- Tom, 11:13:16 06/21/03 Sat
- LOL *hugs* No, I'm not upset, Tom :). I was just making the point that facts were offered to back up beliefs but havent been forthcoming... Doesnt mean my belief is any more valid than yours :) (NT) -- Bester, 17:41:25 06/21/03 Sat
- who and what facts are you talking about? was it me? haha. I have ADD so you have to remind me if I promised something and I didnt do it. So, if it's me, just point out the post and I will reread and try to do it, when I get some time. I gotta work tonight. Just DJ'ed all day and now I'll be at the club until the wee hours. Post it or send me a mail if its me. *hugs* (NT) -- Lance, 20:28:21 06/21/03 Sat
- Lance has the attention span of a mosquito on crack! LOLOLOLOLOLOL (NT) -- *~*Sprite*~*, 16:59:04 06/22/03 Sun
- who and what facts are you talking about? was it me? haha. I have ADD so you have to remind me if I promised something and I didnt do it. So, if it's me, just point out the post and I will reread and try to do it, when I get some time. I gotta work tonight. Just DJ'ed all day and now I'll be at the club until the wee hours. Post it or send me a mail if its me. *hugs* (NT) -- Lance, 20:28:21 06/21/03 Sat
- LOL *hugs* No, I'm not upset, Tom :). I was just making the point that facts were offered to back up beliefs but havent been forthcoming... Doesnt mean my belief is any more valid than yours :) (NT) -- Bester, 17:41:25 06/21/03 Sat
- I'm sorry if I upset you. No one is suggesting that a HCL is the universal panacea for all ills or that it will totally eradicate homophobia in police forces, I'm merely saying that it will help not hinder. It's a big step in the right direction. I believe everything Lance listed to be true. Since you disagree, then maybe you know something I don't know. I'm sorry if I upset you for asking. I was just trying to understand why you believe as you do. I apologize. (NT) -- Tom, 11:13:16 06/21/03 Sat
- I have no hard facts on professionalism or otherwise of the FBI. I'm not American, I don't know. My point is simply that legislation cannot combat individual homophobia within a police force, and that its simply incorrect to say that it can. I would also make the point that FBI oversight is not a universal panacea for all ills (more) -- Bester, 02:21:48 06/21/03 Sat
- gay HCL's simply add certain people to an already existing law, which after decades has not produced the situations, violations, and other problems that are being predicted... -- Drew Greyfox, 13:08:08 06/23/03 Mon
- OK Drew, I'll take you up on that (more) -- Bester, 17:10:37 06/20/03 Fri
- So show me the facts Wolf, show me real examples that prove that HCL's violate free speech or Constitutional rights. So far I've only heard theoretical arguments against them with very little or no actual proof... -- Drew Greyfox, 14:03:01 06/20/03 Fri
- Just a question...On the Department of Justice web site, they show a definition of hate crimes which includes sexual orientation. Is this just a misprint or what? -- E.J., 19:42:17 06/20/03 Fri
- I doubt that it’s a misprint E.J. Maybe they just took that definition out of a dictionary. I don’t know why sexual orientation is included. I‘m tempted to send them an email and ask about it. (more) -- Dano, 20:11:24 06/20/03 Fri
- A bit farther down the page is this statement: "In September 1994, Congress also enacted a Federal hate crime penalty enhancement statute (Public Law 103-322 § 28003), which would increase the penalties for Federal crimes where the victim was selected "because of the actual or perceived race, color, religion, national origin, ethnicity, gender, disability, or sexual orientation of any person." http://www.usdoj.gov/crs/pubs/htecrm.htm (NT) -- E.J., 21:40:18 06/20/03 Fri
- Getting a little complicated for me but I’ll give my take on it. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable than I am will explain, for sure, what‘s going on here.. I’ve got a feeling what you quoted is applicable only in cases where the “federally protected activity requirement” of the existing federal hate-crime law comes into play. Most hate-crimes against gays wouldn’t fall into this category (i.e. voting etc.) (NT) -- Dano, 22:24:56 06/20/03 Fri
- From the FBI's web site: Although the Hate Crimes Statistics Act of 1990 (amended in 1994 and 1996) defines a hate crime as a crime against a person or property motivated by bias toward race, religion, ethnicity/national origin, disability, or sexual orientation, the FBI does not have any federal jurisdiction to investigate hate crimes motivated by a sexual orientation bias. Some stats inside....... -- E.J., 22:29:01 06/20/03 Fri
- Repeating your arguments and "facts" again and again doesn't make them right -- The Wolf, 13:23:30 06/20/03 Fri
- Nice theories, but not based in much fact... -- Drew Greyfox, 11:54:36 06/20/03 Fri
- Is it fairly safe to say that on the issue of HCL, (gay) people fall into two categories: -- Sergio, 16:34:31 06/22/03 Sun
- Just remember, be safe. The most dangerous month for homosexuals, statistically speaking, tends to be June, a month when hundreds of gay pride parades and festivals are held across the country. (NT) -- Jean, 17:05:15 06/22/03 Sun
Thanks for posting!