James--Partner of Marie
Rolling his Ball
Different Trainers/Different Techniques
Someone else commented that they, as a novice, felt confused by all the
different techniques. I feel for you! I do!
Studying clicker training or more broadly the whole of operant conditioning
and reinforcement theory is the best thing that ever happened to me in terms
of sorting out all these different trainers. Now I can look at what they do
and say, "see how he's using release as a reinforcement?" Or "that was a
bit of positive punishment there". Or I can ask mySELF, "ahem, and uh what
exactly ARE you reinforcing there dear?"
Broad statements about tools, like treats or longe lines or round pens or
whatever, are pretty much trainer specific "superstition". Anything can be
used stupidly. The MOST important thing is look to the base principles and
what is actually HAPPENING with the horse. Sharon
The idea is to choose
something the horse can pretty much do on its own (even if it put up her ears)
and reward that.
AND remember, always reward the behavior as it is going toward what you want.
I videotaped myself working on my mare during a "teach to clip" task, and even
though I thought I was rewarding as she was "going toward the direction of the
behavior I wanted" which was standing while I had the clippers in a particular
spot, the video showed I sorely lacking in timing, and actually rewarding her
as she was moving away from the clippers!!!!! We eventually got it together,
as even with my lousy timing, she somehow "knew" what I wanted.
So, now that you have the burden of training on you.... (if the animal fails,
the trainer is responsible), and know that it isn't the area, go out, figure
out what you need to do, and above all, make it fun for you and the
horse!!!!!!
Oh yes, I learned a lot about her in that session, too, what she liked, the
hierachy of treats, etc. Actually, I started to appreciate her more because of
who she was. Before I just looked at her as a big problem. She proved me
wrong on that one!!!!! JYL SNYDER
Improving Gaits
>. We had a blast in the canter. Kvon got so excited about the request (he
did pick up the correct lead both ways each time I asked) that I had a
hard time getting him to settle down into a walk so that I could ask him
again. (He's so cute!!)<<
This is the advantage of adding in the clicker. The click ends
behavior. When your horse picks up the canter, you'll let him know
that's exactly what you wanted by clicking him after just one or two
strides. He'll slam on the brakes. You'll go up over his ears because
you weren't expecting such a prompt response, but that's all right.
Next time you'll be better prepared.
Stopping never sounds like a good deal to most riders. We've all been
taught to keep our horses going, but it really is exactly what you want.
Look at all the advantages the clicker gives you:
First, you were able to tell your horse that cantering was a good thing
and exactly what you wanted.
You were able to indicate that to the horse while the canter was still
good.
By clicking him and having him come out of the canter, you created
another opportunity to work on canter departs.
Once the departs are consistent, you'll be able to delay your click to
build duration in the gait. You'll do this with your horse staying
relaxed because you aren't asking for long stretches of canter. He's
learning how to have a burst of adrenaline, and then how to calm back
down. Think about a competition horse waiting at the starting line, and
you'll understand what a good thing this is.
Those are all the GOOD things that are happening. Now think about all
the bad things that DIDN'T happen. A green horse canter can be a wild
ride. The horse doesn't understand how to balance in the canter with a
rider up. He may start out ok, but then he'll begin to rush. The rider
pulls back, the horse twists onto his inside shoulder, and suddenly
feels out of balance. Instead of feeling relaxed and confident, he
starts to panic. The rider feels him rushing faster, so she pulls him
up in the corner. What has this horse learned about cantering compared
to the clicker-trained horse?
The clicker-trained horse was back at the halt getting a treat before
the canter could deteriorate. He learned that cantering is fun and
leads to good things. The second horse is learning that cantering with
a rider up can be a frightening experience and ends by having your mouth
pulled on.
Even if you're an experienced rider who knows how to help a green horse
find his way in the canter, you still have to be able to bring them down
out of it. Suppose you get a good canter depart and your horse
maintains his balance well down the long side of the arena. You'd like
to reward him by letting him walk, so you ask for a down transition.
Your horse is thinking forward in the canter. He doesn't really know
how to downshift back to the walk yet, so instead of dropping softly out
of the canter, he stiffens his jaw against your hand. From his point of
view, instead of being rewarded for a good canter, he's actually being
punished for it. He was going beautifully, and what happened? He had
his mouth pulled on. Even though you are back at the walk giving your
horse a nice long rein and a chance to relax, you've really missed your
opportunity to reinforce that good canter directly.
Clicker-trained horses get very good at figuring out and repeating the
behavior that just earned them a click. It is a phenomenal tool for
developing consistency and quality in the gaits. But before you start
work in the canter, tune up the clicker with simpler exercises. Begin
with basics in the walk so your horse has a chance to understand how the
clicker works under saddle. The more experience he has, the better
he'll be at figuring out the subtle differences you're after in the more
complex work.
Alexandra Kurland
I just wanted to report on my great success. Alexandra's recent post to the
click list on the value of rewarding a great gait EVEN THOUGH that ends it,
even though that stops what you want to have continue, was a big help. I knew
this was right even though it's darn hard to convince yourself to give it
away when you've worked so hard to get it.
Part of the reason our lessons have been so bad is that my trainer doesn't
teach the release. She rides soft and light so I don't know what she's
thinking. I guess in her mind she gives it, it's always there, so she doesn't
even think about it not being there. Who knows. Well I've been practicing on
my own with Alexandra's post for encouragement.
I was thinking: OK, duration is a separate criteria. Quality is one criteria;
duration is a second. You only train for one thing at a time. So on my own
I've been getting a softness and then throwing away the reins "GOOD BOY!" I'm
making it clear to him that he has succeeded! I can FEEL that as this
develops his confidence he will be able to offer me this softness for longer
and longer! It's WONDERFUL! Today in my lesson I'd get a softness and right
then THROW AWAY THE REINS. My trainer was so surprised. But I began to train
her to the idea too. Not in words of course!! That just provokes an argument.
Instead: "Oh wasn't that beautiful!" I'd say and give him a big hug and she
would smile and right away I'd pick them up again. Pretty soon she was saying
"This is a really good exercise for him" and offering suggestions on
variations. Afterwards, she said this was the most consistent I had ever had
him. AHhhhhh. It's true too. He was lovely. And I'm having so much fun!!
hahahahahah
Thank you all! Amie
I just finished a clinic with David Lichman, who is a senior Parelli
instructor in Acampo, California. David while demonstrating, helping,
training, teaching several of the clinic participants was eating an apple.
David Lichman is a very soft spoken man with a very gentle but firm and
friendly touch with horses. I was a little apprehensive about this clinic
as I took Mariah. She is very sensitive and I do not want any rough
'cowboying' type techniques used on her.
Anyway, I had a very good day with Mariah, we learned how to do all 7 Games
in a friendly/firm manner. In fact, she did very well once she understood
what it was I wanted her to do. On the other hand, I felt pretty clumsy at
first. I was having a hard time coordinating both arms/hands to do
different things--felt pretty uncoordinated at times but we got through it.
David got after me (in a nice soft/firm way) about not releasing at the
smallest try. I think I have more to work on than my horse--isn't that the
way it always is? Anyway, I now feel I can go on with the games with all
the horses--in combination with their clicker training--in a somewhat
orderly fashion and even understand what it is I am suppose to be doing.
I recommend to all of you, if you get a chance, do attend a clinic or some
training sessions with an actual natural trainer/instructor. I have a
trainer--totally traditional type--that helped me achieve Trail
Championships--but I am very confused about whether I will even go back to
my old trainer. Just winning seems so shallow now. I want so much more for
my horses and for myself.
Are there others out there who feel like I do? You want to be loyal to your
'old trainers' but you know there is a better way? Maybe, I am going
through a midlife crises with my horses! My training goals used to be so
solid--so black and white. Go out and win! Even though, I have been on the
horseman list for over 2 years, and (I thought) following natural training
methods, I can see now that I really wasn't. I was not being completely
fair to my horses. I don't think I ever really looked at training through
the horse's eyes till I read Alexandra's book. Just thinking about becoming
the horse and having to try and figure out what the human wants really made
me humble! Now, with the help of David Lichman and the knowledge I gained
through Alexandra's book, I have such a different outlook on all of
training. The click as the "THAT'S IT, THAT'S WHAT I WANT.' The reward as
"The payment.' 'These two things combined with the friendly, fair, firm
training of Parelli, the 'set if up and wait' of Hunt all offered to the
horse in a fashion that allows the horse to figure out for himself what is
being asked makes training so much more than I ever experienced before. I
am working on my patience--let the horse 'dwell' as David kept saying last
weekend. But what's more, I am having fun training for the first time in my
life. Instead of training being a chore, something that always took away
from the actual riding and having fun times--training is the fun times! I
am anticipating/planning our next training sessions before the last one is
over! Teaching is soooo much more fun that just going out and riding! Much
more rewarding! Does anyone understand my rambling?
Nancy with Sammy, Rocky, and Mariah
There's been discussion lately about the value of thinking about things vs
just doing it, about left and right brain, about being able to talk about
what you're doing and feeling at the same time as doing and feeling it. I
like this talk; I find it interesting. I admit to being in the camp of
enjoying both doing and thinking, though not always at the same time!
This weekend I read Karen Pryors' Lads Before the Wind which I loved. I
laughed and laughed throughout this book. There were a couple of passages
that I particularly wanted to share with this group, one of which applies to
this idea of the "feeling" and "thinking" approaches. She has just described
the Training Game where they got together to practice their understanding of
training concepts on each other without using words.
From 'Lads Before the Wind' by Karen Pryor
'It was in the Training Game that I first became fully conscious of the
differences between what the skilled operant conditioner knows and what the
practical animal trainer knows: between the science of training and the art
of training. We called it "Karen-training" and "David-training," and
sometimes, for exercise, made lists on the blackboard. Things like whistle
conditioning, time outs, and limited holds went under "Karen-training."
Things like knowing when to quit and thinking up shaping recipes and choosing
a good subject went under "David-training."
'I became conscious of the existence of two vast camps of trainers: the
psychologists, with their elegant, almost mathematical rules for training,
but no rules for the "David-training" aspects of the work, for the hunches,
the timing, the intuitive outguessing of the animal; and the practial animal
trainers, with vast individual experience, but with their own superstitious
behaviors, people who usually were unable to sort the useful from the merely
traditional in their shaping recipes, and who had a tendency to explain far
too much on the basis of the personalities of the animals and the magnetic
personality of the trainer himself. Two vast camps, and almost no
communication between them.
'At Sea Live Park, we had a foot in each camp. With Ron's manual, and
scientists coming and going whom I could quiz about details of learning
theories, we had a firm scientific footing. With the practical necessities of
mounting ten trained animal shows a day, and varying those shows all the
time, we had firm footing in the practical camp.
'Somewhere between the two camps, new truths, new understandings, still
remain to be discovered. It seemed to me I could sense these truths, or at
least the questions that might lead to them, most clearly when we were
playing the Training Game. What's "smart"? What's "dumb"? Why does one "love"
one animal and not another? Why--oh, why indeed--does the animal love the
trainer? At what point, and why, does the artificial communication system of
operant conditioning begin to give way to some genuine social communication,
to that feeling that trainers call rapport? It is a golden feeling when the
trainer really begins to feel as if he IS reading the animal's mind, or when
the animal begins to respond to the trainer's voice and emotions, something
we take for granted in a horse [!!!] or a dog but have to work to earn with
the more alien porpoise... '
She then goes on to describe some incidents of the animal using the training
system in its own way to communicate with the trainer. Neat stuff. In this
book, Karen also writes about her own first-hand meetings with Skinner and
Lorenz which are enjoyable stories. She relates the same kind of sterile
polarization between the camps of various "thinkers" as we are currently
debating between thinking and doing.
This has just reminded me of a grade-school teacher I had who angrily stated
that if you couldn't define a word, you didn't know what it meant. What a
discouraging slap that was! Some years later I decided she was wrong: I can
use a word appropriately even when I can't put into other words what it
means. But being able to put it into other words does give me additional
skill and strength with that word -- and it's something I enjoy! I value both
the intuition, the non-verbal knowing, and the clear, sharp, articulate
knowing. They are both beautiful, wonderful games. And as Karen says, putting
the two together opens up all kinds of additional rooms for play. To all players! regards, Amie
>>I find a lot of people don't want to start (us left brainers)
working with our horses because we "might ruin them" or do something wrong.<<
This is so true and I'm glad it is recognised. I felt exactly the same way.
I have been worried to death since I had my filly as a weanling a couple of
years ago that either she would get the better of me or I would ruin her
before she had even been backed. I had heard so many stories of youngsters
'trying it on' Had I earned sufficient respect for her not to try it on
because if she did I wouldn't be able to cope?
Yes we have got through the two years without too many problems, yes she
has tested me to some extent but I am always pleasantly surprised that she
stops the unwanted behaviour when I ask. Does she know that if she
persisted a little longer I might have given in and that would have been
it!!? Clicker training has provided all the positive notes since I started
a month ago. I had problems with bridling. She now lowers her head and
accepts the bit no problem.
I absolutely love this method. I've always been sold on bribery and
corruption anyway!!!:-) Sue
I love the barrel pictures.
I just can't believe how amazing this clicker training can be! I went
out to work with Skippy today. This time, I had an actual cone for him
to target, so I started with that. He got the idea quickly, so I decided
to do something else. (there goes that short attention span of mine
again.
Remember last time, we ended with Skippy stepping his front foot over
when I touched his shoulder. With a fair amount, but not astonishing,
success rate. Well, this time, I didn't bother with a halter, and just
took him to the middle of the arena. I got in position, and reached out
to touch his shoulder. I just about fell over when he quickly stepped
his front foot over without me ever touching him! I c/t'ed, and tried
again, this time, I just pointed. Again, he stepped over! He went from
just the barest connection at the last session to moving over just with a
point! I was so surprised! Once I realized that he was going to do it
every time, I started working on the hind end. He got the idea
eventually, and I moved on to working for both ends at the same time.
He was working really hard (I could just SEE him thinking about what I
wanted), and finally, after circling for a bit, he stopped, and stepped
sideways with his whole body. Naturally, I c/t'ed, and tried again.
Just like last week, he went back and forth between knowing what to do,
and working it out again through different movements. Finally, I got him
to take two steps sideways, jackpotted him, and quit. I went to open the
gate so the other horses were no longer locked out (they have to go
through the arena to get their water) and again, he got in my way. I was
standing there with the gate halfway open, and he was blocking me from
finishing. I gave him a meaninful look and told him to get out of my
way, and I'll be danged if he didn't start doing a perfect sidepass, head
held all close and collected, even! I just stood there for a second. I
told him he was good for doing it, but I didn't have any more treats to
give him. So, I just finished opening the gate, and went to leave
through the fence.
I guess he didn't think I had been shocked enough, cause just as I was
going through the fence, he started sidepassing again! I'm telling you,
I never realized how smart this horse could be! I'm absolutely thrilled
about clicker training! Now, I can't wait to get back out there again,
and see what he'll try next time. This is such a difference from the way
I was training before. Last time my trainer and I worked on sidepassing,
we just used the basic pressure/release cues to have him do it. He got
terribly tense, and was obviously happy to quit. This time, he was
working with me the whole time, trying to figure out what I wanted. And,
he just as obviously didn't want to quit. LOL Anyway, I just wanted to
share how amazing my horse is. (proud look) I'll keep you posted on his
progress. Eve
<< All suggestions would be very helpful! Like I said I am new to this
and haven't started using it yet cause I want to know more before I start. I
have a green broke horse and I want to use it to better train him to work with
me. And I also want to train him the way I want >>
The best way, although most scary, is to jump in there and start. Go to
Alexandra's website and start with teaching the target with the cone. Then go
on from there. I find a lot of people don't want to start (us left brainers)
working with our horses because we "might ruin them" or do something wrong.
Unless something traumatizing happens, the horses don't know you are right or
wrong. And they don't seem to care that you teach them something else in
place of something you might not like.
When I started working this way, I had an old zoo training pamphlet, some John
Lyons and Pat Parelli tapes, and Alexandra's website. I started out by using
the targeting exercise, then going to the halter exercise. I trained my mare
out of fear of noises, such as crinkly plastic bags, stones in cans, and even
low level gunfire. I had nothing except those few things I mentioned. Did I
make mistakes? Plenty!!!! Did I learn from them?? Plenty more. Did I know
more by figuring it out myself. You betcha.
While it is nice to have someone to talk with about what I did, I found the
best way to learn about it was to go do it.
So, while you are searching for someone to work with you, go out and play with
your horse. Do the exercises on the website. You can work with headshy, or
teaching your horse to stand in a bucket, or picking up his feet quietly.. any
problem you have to solve.
Next one is: set the behavior...such as if you want the horse to stand while
he is in the bucket, then focus on that, not on the "non-behavior" which is
what other behaviors that the horse will offer, such as taking the foot out of
the bucket, tossing his head, stomping, etc. Always start where the horse is
successful, maybe having him start standing on a flat piece of cardboard, then
going to a piece of cardboard that has an edge, then to a low sided feed pan,
to a higher sided feed pan, to a low bucket to a regular soak bucket. AND
remember that the task is usually a chain of behaviors-- don't see the task as
a whole behavior-- see where the problem breaks down... such as the horse
stands in the bucket for about 2 minutes... so he is standing in the bucket,
but what happens after the two minutes.. that is where the behavior breaks
down. He might not be standing on all four feet, might be off center, etc.
Last golden rule is: if the horse isn't performing the behavior you want...it
is the trainer's problem, not the horses. The trainer sets the behavior, not
the horse. So it is the TRAINER'S RESPONSIBILITY, not the horses, to teach the
horse what you want thru good explanations....this will help YOU break down
your tasks to ones that the horse is successful with. If my horse isn't
"getting it" in a couple minutes, you need to think about what is happening
and why the horse might not be getting the idea. So then it is your job to
make it easier for them to understand!!!
I was introduced to clicker training first at an advanced Level 2 PNH group
lesson. The instructor
said the clicker can be very good but you need to be fairly advanced in your
horsemanship (Level 2)
before you and your horse are ready. The horse needs to know "its got to" before
you teach "it gets to".
Pat Parelli shows this in rough form on the Liberty video - the "get to" and
"got to" aspect.
There is a lot of discussion on the horseman's net these days on NH and the
clicker. Alexandra Kurland's
book is a great book for horse people, even if you decide not to click. It is
as well written as any horse
book I have ever read. When I first heard about clicker training, I found all
kinds of reasons why I should
not do this clicker thing. I read the book and began to understand that the book,
"Clicker
Training for Your
Horse", was not about the clicker at all. It is about training your horse with
what ever method you want; and
using the click to make it clearer, faster for your horse to understand when he has
done the right thing.
The only books on horse training I have ever read that are in the same class of
being good and understandable
are Pat Parelli's Natural Horsemanship and Marty Marten's Problem Solving both
published by Western
Horseman.
After reading Alexandra's book I began using her system along with PNH and have
incorporated the clicker
training ideas into my level 3 PNH work.
Buy the book!
Ray Conkright
From: "Rodney & Nancy DeGan"
I have read half way through Alexandra's new book, "Clicker Training for
Your Horse." I want to recommend this book to everyone who owns a horse,
rides a horse, works with horses or is just crazy about horses! This is the
easiest to read, comprehend, follow, understand book on horse training that
I have read. It is interesting and fun to read! I usually read training
books because of a sense of 'duty' not because I enjoy them. I have
thoroughly enjoyed this book and I believe it is going to be a classic in
the horse industry.
I am now ordering another copy of the book for my step-daughter who just
bought an Arab filly 10 months old. This book is something a complete
amateur 'newbie' can comprehend, follow, and actually train with but I
highly recommend it for those of us that have had horses for years and
years! I wish I could go back and start over with my horses at 10 months
with this book. Rhonda's filly is so lucky to be starting at the same time
this new training revolution is taking place!
To all of you that haven't read this book yet--do yourself and your horse(s)
a favor and order it now. I have trained several horses over the years and
my only regret is that this book was not available sooner--it would have
made the training so much more fun, enjoyable, and comprehendible. I
usually skim through training books (I start the book with good intentions
but find it hard to actually read them), get a little out of them, but spend
a lot of time trying to figure out what I read--never really too sure. This
is exhausting, discouraging, and just plain hard work, which most of us
don't want. We want quick answers. Alexandra's book is the best you'll get
and I have a whole library of horse books--most of which I started, picked
through, forced myself to thumb through and never completely read. I AM
READING THE CLICKER BOOK FROM COVER TO COVER!!!!! I wish I had more time to
spend reading this book! I know I am going to read it again and
again--can't say that for any other horse training book that I have ever
read before!
Thank you Alexandra! Can't wait for the video to come out! Nancy
Suggested Treats:
He deliberately offered several horses (participants) bites of his apple.
Later on during the day, one of David's horses very softly laid down when
David asked for a leg--David left the arena to purposely get this mare a
treat, while mumbling something about, I hope she stays down till I get back
with a treat for her. I thought this was very--very thoughtful. Just
proved to me that rewards like food are not just for clicker trainers.
Parelli's teaching is not clicker training--it is natural training--yet here
was a Parelli instructor using food as a reward. This just cinched for me
what I have already been doing--which is combining the 7 Games and John
Lyons techniques with Clicker Training.
I have overcome so much with this
mare considering that she
was totally wild when I got her and that she would
not let me near her for the first month without rearing/walking on her hind
legs and crashing into the hot wire to get away from me.
Once we got
acquainted, I spent the next 4 years getting bucked off of her because of
her asymmetrical problem--as all of you that have been on this list for very
long already know!
Festus, a clicker trained mule, owned by Lee Workman, Lee's Little LongEars. 
I'm still working on the saddling because I did
that originally with the round pen method - she accepted it on her back - I
sent/drove her away - she bucked a couple of times and obviously was not
entirely happy with it. Next time she wouldn't keep still to have me put
the saddle on by myself and it fell off [ungirthed] onto the floor which
scared her more. So I decided that this was something to c/t train. It
just shows that it can take a few hours to undo what a few minutes damage
did! She's accepting the saddle on her in her stall but we are not there
yet. However that being said the rest of our c/t is progressing well and we
are both enjoying it. She canters from one end of the field to me when she
sees me get the stuff out of the tack room and at the end she still wants
more.
That's equine weave poles.
Add a couple
of jumps, and a platform and you'll have horse agility!
Alexandra Kurland
When I told my trainer that I was gonna start playing
with C/T she looked at me like
I was sniffing hoof
dressing or
something...well..let me tell ya..the other day I demonstrated a few things
and she was floored, just knowing the short period of time we've been doing
this. She immediately asked to borrow my book. I also loaned her a spare
clicker and she is having a blast with her horses now. Her exact words when
I asked her what she thought were "I think you're on to something here" She
is now going to work it into her training routines. I think we have a
convert on our hands :-) Mary Ellen
Eve and Skippy
Suggest you remember the golden rules: you can't get hurt, the horse can't
get hurt, and horse is calmer after the lesson than when you started.
JYL SNYDER
In less than 1/2 hour my horse went from not wanting to jump over a barrel (when
I lined three up end
to end against a fence) to willingly jumping over one barrel length wise in the
center of the arena on the
end of a 22 ft rope.
black licorice;
red jelly beans ("the others don't have enough/any flavor");
jelly bellies (?flavors?);
pretzels;
sugar cubes;
candy corn;
hard candies, like starlight peppermints (the red and white ones);
afterdinner mints (the soft, chalky, pastel ones);
valentine hearts (the soft, chalky, pastel ones);
biscotti (presumably withOUT chocolate);
plain animal crackers (cheap in bulk) (what about the frosted kinds?);
Honey Nut Cheerios;
Cap'n Crunch;
All types of grain and granola cereals;
bread cubes/crusts;
pasta (dried) (esp. shells and rotini);
burned or stale cookies (i.e. oatmeal);
popcorn;
Fritos (many people suggested these);
alfalfa pellets/cubes;
sunflower seeds (shells and all, I've been told);
molasses chunks (often found in commercial feeds - good jackpot!);
dried cranberries;
orange peel (!?!);
raisins;
dried cranberries (it takes a special horse, I think);
various fruits (melons??? lots of animals like cantelope);
peeled baby carrots;
small bits of carrots;
apples;
celery;
cucumbers;
????? (all sorts of vegetables);
Commercial horse treats;
Mrs. Pastures Horse Cookies (I smash with hammer for c/t);
Joker's (www.treatwells.com mailorder only, *very* good jackpot);
Energy Snacks (good basic treat);
...and, of course, all sorts of normal horse food too!
