<XMP><BODY></xmp> Old ideas -the also-rans





        Back in 1999, when on holiday in Portugal, I jotted down some ideas that occurred to me on military matters. This was before I'd ever heard of the 1st Tactical Studies Group and before the existence of G2mil.
        Some of these ideas have gone on to become articles in G2mil or on the Scrapboard. This page records some of the "also-rans". Ideas that for various reasons I don't regard as so viable. I'm recording them here since they may provide of interest/inspiration/enlightenment to someone.

Revised Fifteen-Five.

        FN developed a prototype 15.5mm VHMG that was designed to attack light armoured vehicles.
        According to the manufacture's claims a 15.5mm round can penetrate 19mm of RHA at 800m at 45° while the 14.5mm Russian KPV machine gun can only do this at 250m.
        The weapon itself was difficult to fit in a tactical niche - it was too heavy for infantry and most armoured vehicles opt for automatic cannon - in fact many cannon were lighter than the prototype 15.5mm.
Consider:-
Standard M2HB 38kg
Sarco .50 M2HB25kg
Gecal .50 Gatling 43kg
Mk 22 20mm cannon 49kg
20mm Gatling 66kg
30mm ASP 47kg
FN 15.5mm60kg

        Of course this is not the whole story -you have to consider the weight of the ammo carried too -but those numbers are hard to beat. The 15.5mm VHMG no longer appears in Jane's or in FN's adverts.
        The weapon would benefit from some re-engineering - I wonder how light a weapon you could make if you started off with a ASP-30 and downsized the design to 15.5mm. Around the same time as the 15.5mm General Electric were offering a lightweight 25mm double barreled cannon that revived the Gast-principle. If a 30mm cannon such as the ASP can be built that weighs 47kg, a double barreled 15.5mm gun of the same weight as a standard M2HB (38kg) should be feasible.
        If built such a gun might be a good armament for Light Strike vehicles. The destructive power of a double barreled weapon may compare to that of a 20mm gun while allowing a greater number of rounds to be carried.
        Such a gun may also be a useful boat mounted weapon.

        The Grenade Cannon.

The Aerojet/Knox engineering suggestion for the OCSW was a 30mm High Velocity Grenade Launching Machine Gun (HVGLMG).
        This was a 30 x 51mm weapon projecting a 150gm grenade at 457m/s Rate of fire 260rpm.
        It occurred to me that a heavier vehicle mounted version could fire these rounds and also "cannon" rounds of at least twice the velocity.
        Standard grenade cartridge cases have only a small proportion of their interior occupied by propellant. The cannon velocity rounds would have most of the interior filled with propellant. Possibly a two stage charge will be used- the smaller ejecting the round into the barrel and the rest generating gas in the space behind it. The cannon loads will have belted cases so they won't load in a standard HVGLMG while the breech of the grenade cannon will be designed to chamber both types.
        Current form of OCSW is built by Primex. Like the Knox/Aerojet proposal it uses OICW type fusing but is 25mm rather than 30mm.
        The weapon weighs 10.4kg, the tripod 4.1 and the firecontroller 2.1kg. Whole thing is 18.6 kg and can be broken into two manportable loads.
        It fires a 132g round at c420m/s -which means the round takes 8.89sec to reach 2000m. 260rds/min and 1.2mrad dispersion. Apogee at 2000m less than 100m (a quarter that of the Mk-19).
        Is there a place for a vehicle mounted version of the OCSW with a dual feed and a heavier barrel and capable of using cannon rounds? The cannon rounds might also be suitable for the 25 mm Gatling cannons mounted on the flak vehicles. The idea of a gatling grenade launcher does appeal to some soldiers I've mentioned the idea to.
        Some manufacturers are already experimenting with programmable-primed ammo for conventional 30mm cannon, so the Grenade Cannon is unlikely to ever see reality.
        I've little doubt that the OCSW will prove to be a very useful weapon, filling most of the tactical niches of the Browning heavy machine gun and the Mk-19 GMG. It's essentially a flat-ish shooting automatic grenade launcher. However, while I was considering the OCSW for various vehicle applications it occurred to me that for certain jobs a flat shooting, high velocity performance more like the BHMG might be more useful.
        A possible solution suddenly occurred to me- a OCSW case with a saboted bullet -probably the same bullets as manufactured for the BHMG. I'll refer to these saboted rounds as "KE (Kinetic Energy) loads" -though exploding APEI and APHCI rounds are a likely loading.
        Further consideration makes me doubt that a KE round based on the OCSW case would be practical. See here for further discussion.

        Many of the ideas I originally had for the Slope merged with Carlton Meyer's idea of the Tankita. The Tankita became a three man vehicle based on the M113, so there may still be a niche for the smaller Slope.
        This was written before I was educated to advantages that light tracks have over wheels, so my visualization is of a four wheeled vehicle. The Slope would weight well under 8 tons, so this may still be a viable form of propulsion. A tracked Slope could be created by up-armouring a Wiesel 1.

The Slope
        The Science-Fiction novel "A Small Colonial War" included a two man Scout/Light attack vehicle called the "Slope". The name suggested a two-man attack vehicle with just enough room inside for the crew, their personal equipment and ammo. The frontal armour could be steeply angled and the belly armour keeled, resulting in a well-protected vehicle that is highly mobile, amphibious and transportable by helicopter or airdrop.
        Probable configuration would be two crew sitting side by side or in tandem ahead of a rear engine, and a remote controlled turret mounted above. I imagine the vehicle as wheeled, but it could also be tracked or multi-wheeled like the Supacat.
        Turret armament 15.5mm HMG,-possibly multiple discharger cups or Mk19 in bow. -or replace both with 30mm HVGLMG or light cannon or multiple machinegun mount. Can mount 4-6 ATGW on hull sides. Helicopter transportable.

        I suggested the 15.5mm as the turret weapon for the Slope since I was looking for something with the antipersonnel and anti-material capabilities of a Bren gun carrier with a Boyes ATR. The obvious answer was a .50 Browning but I was looking for something with a little more poke.
        One idea that has appeal is a .50 M2 with a 40mm Mk-19 GMG.
         Isn't that the niche the OCSW is supposed to fill you may ask? -yes, and two OCSWs weigh less than one BHMG or Mk-19.
        The idea of a triple mount of OCSWs, the central loaded with Kinetic Energy loads, suggests itself. The fifty/forty cupola seems to be the armament of choice for light vehicles in many armies. The Russians have their own version with a 12.7mm and a 30mm AGS.
        The next generation version will probably be a OCSW mounted with a GPMG or Hose for a bit more close range oomph (needs a catchy name though-"inch and a half turret?"). The pairing of a Hose and a OCSW seems to make a lot of sense, and I've taken to thinking of this as the No.1 Light Strike mount. This would be a good mount for all sorts of boats and vehicles, and even for remote controlled sentry turrets (the Russians use the AGS alone in these). The No.2 Light Strike mount is a .50 MG and a 40mm GMG, the No.3 Light Strike mount is a 30mm ASP.
        Forgetting the OCSW for a moment, the most obvious other options for the Slope are the 30mm ASP or a lightweight 20mm or 25mm gun. Another option is the 14.5mm Russian KPV, which often forms the main armament for larger armoured cars and APCs. The performance of the KPV might be improved by redesigning the ammo to use some of the knowledge gained when developing the 15.5mm. (The 15.5mm round had a driving band more like a small artillery shell than an MG bullet). Using the KPV would at least ensure that ammo was readily available.
        The turret gun is not the only armament I'm planning for the Slope- I've mentioned a hull mounted 40mm GMG already, but you may ask "why not a OCSW?"
        My latest idea is to supplement the turret gun (let's say it's a 20mm or double barreled 15.5mm) with a 60mm mortar. Some Israeli tanks carry one as standard to save main gun ammo, and for the Slope it makes a lot of sense.
        In a hit and run mission, several mortar rounds can be fired before the first one lands, and it is possible to make captive piston rounds that are essentially noiseless and flashless (q.v. the Fly-K mortar). The Slope could also drop an illumination round right into the middle of an enemy camp just as the fighter bombers arrive. It could also fire canister in an anti-ambush or ambush situation. Then again, the No.1 Light Strike turret might serve just as well.
        The Slope could probably mount more armour than vehicles of a similar size. Many years ago I saw a design for a two man Japanese tank which mounted a 37mm gun and a machine gun at the back of the turret. Not a bad armament for a vehicle of the size, though not much of a match for contemporary tanks -then again, those tanks couldn't operate in the jungle without pushing down trees, and this may be good terrain for the narrow Slope.
        The heli-transportable capability of the Slope is worth remembering -in a air mobile unit the troops will still have to operate on the ground, and some armoured support would be useful.
The Rhodesian Pookie mine detection vehicle reminds me of the shape I'm thinking of for the Slope:-rather like an armoured turreted kayak on four outrigger wheels. It is possible that the slope could be fitted with similar equipment to the Pookie and low ground pressure tires to do the same job ahead of convoys.
        Pookies were also used to sweep railway lines for mines, so a Slope with the capability to travel on either rail or road occurs to me.

        This is another idea that shows its age a little. Modern Assault guns are probably a better option for infantry support. There may still be some merit to an easily produced support vehicle as described below, however.

        Infantry Tanks
        I was thinking about the pre-WW2 concept of infantry tanks. The most well known was the Churchill -though it does seem to me that most models of this tank did not have an armament ideally suited to their proposed role. A potentially more effective Infantry tank was probably the French Char B1-bis. This had a turreted anti-tank gun and a hull mounted howitzer. The first models of Churchill had similar armament, but the hull shape of this tank limited the howitzers field of fire. I'd have expected an infantry support tank to have more machine guns. French tanks operated in units of five, with three "gun" tanks and two light or medium weight machine gun tanks, so there may have been no need for more machine guns.

        Airborne forces often do not have MBTs available, so use IFV and SP guns or Mortars for intimate support in a role much like that of an infantry tank. (in fact many western airborne forces lack these assets)
        Most proposed designs for future main battle tanks have the crew seated side by side in the hull and operating the weapons by remote control. While having numerous advantages, this is a very high tech solution and I wonder if in certain situations a simpler system may be better. For certain missions a simple prop' plane is better than a high tech jet.
        I'm suggesting an infantry support vehicle based on an APC hull but fitted with a manned turret mounting a 165mm Howitzer/ 160mm Gun Mortar/ 152mm Gun Launcher.
        As well as direct fire support this weapon could be used for high angle fire or to launch guided antitank missile rounds. The hull would mount a flame-thrower as well as the bow machine gun, and the vehicle would be well equipped with machine guns and firing ports. Possibly the turret roof could be equipped with a 50 cal gatling.
        Air portability may be an important feature.
        This vehicle could be incorporated into the support company of any battalion that lacked attached MBTs.
        Alternately, an organisation similar to that of wartime German Panzergrenadier divisions could be used. Each division (six to nine infantry battalions) had a battalion of close support Pz IVs (Sd.Kfz.161 Ausf. A-F) armed with short barrelled 75mm guns. Later on in the war these tanks were usually replaced by assault guns.
        As I place this article on the web it occurs to me that the assault gun configuration could produce a very simple but effective "Infantry Tank". Have a rear engined vehicle with a large forward fighting compartment. Mount a howitzer or gun-mortar on the glacis and have a large roof hatch as is found on the M113. Around the hatch is a rail mounting with several machine guns and automatic grenade launchers with gun-shields. This hatch can also be used to launch shoulder fired guided missiles such as Javelin.

        The question of whether combat vehicles should have tracks or wheels has now become highly political. Mike Sparks website is a good source of information on why tracks are preferable, and this is summarised here. The concept below was written as a suggestion to improve the performance of the many wheeled vehicles already in service with various nations.

The Dremel Wheel Concept.

By using a range of different wheels and tires it may be possible to select the most appropriate for the terrain likely to be encountered.
        A Japanese company has a "track module" for 4x4 vehicles that replaces the conventional tire. The hub fits to a drive wheel and below this are four or five road wheels.
        Sand tires, Snow tires, Wheel and Skid combinations and Pedirails are other options.
         I call this the "Dremel Wheel" concept.


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