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Persecution in Kenya Interview with David McKay,
© 2005 Pine River World News
Update notice 03-SEP-2005 - Case Resolution: (from Kenyan press, The Nation, Nairobi) "An Australian couple accused of abducting a woman and her seven-year-old son was yesterday acquitted by a Nairobi court. Senior resident magistrate Timothy Okello further ordered the passport of Mr Ronaldo Gianstefani and his wife Susan Adolfo released to them."
Links to the Kenyan press articles:
Nationmedia, Nairobi Registration is free. (Search for the articles in the Archives, by publication date.)
Cult Man Quizzed Over Missing Boy (article #1)
Synopsis: A 27-year old Kenyan woman and her 7-year old son are reported missing in Kenya. The woman has contacted authorities and refused to disclose her or the boy's whereabouts. Police are investigating an Australian-based religious group known as "Jesus Christians" whose representatives, Roland and Susan Gianstefani, are presently in Kenya recruiting members. Roland has subsequently been arrested and charged with 'abduction'. Police are continuing to search for the woman and her son.
18-JULY-2005 Pine River World News (PRWN) has conducted an exclusive email interview with David McKay, co-founder of the group "Jesus Christians", in which he brings Pine River readers up to date on events in Kenya. © 2005 Pine River World News PRWN: Dave, I've been following events in Kenya as they have unfolded and welcome the opportunity to present your side of the story. However, before we begin I'd like to educate my readers somewhat with regard to your group "Jesus Christians." What circumstances prompted the group's formation and what distinguishes it from 'mainstream Christianity'? DM: Jesus Christians grew out of a desire to re-discover what it really means to be a follower of Jesus. We first called ourselves "Christians", but we found that people invariably associated that with the church and all that goes with it. Whereas whenever we talked about JESUS, people had a clearer picture of what we are about. So we built on the idea Jesus expressed about there being many "false christs" in the last days, and decided to be more specific about which "christ" we are following, by calling ourselves Jesus Christians. Although there is little in our teachings and practice that is really unique, we do seem to have put the pieces together differently. And we have done so, based on the teachings of Jesus. Like he suggested, we have used his teachings as a "cornerstone" or way of judging which teachings and practices are essential and which are not. Consequently, we do not pray out loud in public, we do not use titles such as Mr. or Sir (and grown members call their parents by their first names), we refuse to work for (i.e. serve) mammon, we have forsaken all private ownership, we live together as a community, we attempt to lay our lives down in loving service to others, and we travel extensively in an effort to take the teachings of Jesus into "all the world". There is more than that, but this may serve as an introduction. PRWN: When I first read about Jesus Christians in the Kenyan press I noted a reference to the group having 17 members. Am I correct in assuming that this number only refers to Kenya? If so, approximately how many members does your group have worldwide? DM: Actually most people are shocked to hear just how small we are. Our worldwide membership is 30 members, and it has remained fairly constant around this level apart from a time seven years ago, when the community split down the middle and membership dropped back to about 15. We have eleven members in Kenya at the moment, including four new members of Kenyan origin. PRWN: What type of person is attracted to Jesus Christians? What are they seeking from a spiritual standpoint? DM: A very good question, and not an easy one to answer. I could say people who are looking for meaning in life, but then that could apply to people who join other religious groups as well. Perhaps the idea of total involvement could better describe it. Because we are a live-in community, and because we have such high standards, most people are simply not interested. Their religious interests are more of a part-time thing. There are also those people who have come from a Christian background who have felt that Jesus was being misrepresented in the mainline churches, and so they have been inspired by the idea of stepping outside church tradition to rediscover the historical Jesus. But there are also people from other religious backgrounds who are deeply concerned about the need for answers that go beyond some new religious craze. Our willingness to tackle what the Bible calls "the root of all evil" appeals to them as offering hope of a genuine answer to very deep and universal problems in the world. PRWN: Let's talk about the persecution in Kenya. If I understand the press reports correctly, a local woman named Betty Waitherero and her 7-year old son, Joshua, allegedly "disappeared" and thus became the subject of a police search. In reality, however, the mother has joined the local Jesus Christians community and declines to disclose her whereabouts. Has she attempted to contact the Kenyan police to explain the circumstances surrounding her "disappearance" - and is her son still with her? DM: Betty phoned the Langatta police station when her father, Fred Njoroge, first reported her missing, and she spoke with the officer in charge, as did her son, Joshua. The officer was satisfied that she had not been abducted. So her father simply went to another police station (presumably SEVERAL other police stations, because the one he finally settled on was quite some distance from his house) until he found one that would not settle for a phone call from her. Betty now feels that if she presented herself physically to a police station, either their testimony to her being free would be ignored, as happened at Langatta, or they would put her in custody to be dealt with by her father. As a step toward protecting us, Betty and Joshua have moved out on their own. They are missing out on many of the benefits of living in community with us because of this, but at least if they are located, the arresting officers will be able to say (if they are not bribed to say otherwise) that she was not in our custody when she was captured. Yes, Joshua is still with her, and she is spending much of her time teaching him. PRWN: According to The Nation, which is a Nairobi newspaper, "The parents sought police help after efforts to persuade their daughter to return home failed." (Publication date 23-JUNE-2005.) I'm surprised the police became involved in this - is it a crime in Kenya for an adult to join a religious group without parental approval? DM: No, it is not a crime. And I think it was very brave of the Nation to have worded it in that way. That article could play a significant role when the case comes to court, although we expect that we will face the same corruption there that we have faced with the police and courts so far. There is a widespread and very serious fear about standing up to such corruption in Kenya. The present government was actually voted in on a platform that it would take a stand against corruption, and it set up an inquiry into it, but when the head of that inquiry started asking questions of the government, he was given death threats which were so serious that he fled the country and has not returned. PRWN: Let's say that Betty were to show up at a Nairobi police station in order to state, in person, that all is well. Could she be arrested? And, if so, what crime could she possibly be charged with? DM: As mentioned above, we feel fairly certain that she too would be arrested. Her father has sent her a text message saying that if she says that she went voluntarily with us, then that makes HER "guilty of abduction"... referring to his grandson. Once again, it isn't a case of him having any LEGAL right, but he has the money to get away with this. It is Betty's fear of losing Josh, more than anything else, that is causing her to stay away from appearing physically. She feels that her father would also not be above physically forcing her to sign papers giving him custody of her son. He is a ruthless man, who will use his power and wealth to have his way regardless. PRWN: On 17-JUNE-2005 Roland Gianstefani, one of your missionaries, was arrested in connection with Betty's disappearance and spent 25 days in jail before being released on bail. Is there an arrest warrant out for Roland's wife, Susan, who assists him in his missionary work? DM: There is an arrest warrant out for Susan, but just at the moment that is in great flux. I will explain. On Thursday, July 14, Betty sent an email to her brother, who lives in Melbourne, Australia, asking him to be more specific about what she would be required to do in order for Roland to be freed. The letter gave the impression that she was getting close to turning herself in. We believe that the brother relayed this information to her father. Then,on Friday, July 15, Roland went to the police station where a warrant had been issued for Susan's arrest about the same time that charges were laid against Roland. He asked them outright if there was still a warrant out for her arrest. He said that this caused something of a stir as various officers turned to one another for an answer. After some time and some private counsel on their part, they asked Roland to return on Monday (today), July 18, and they would tell him then if there was a warrant out for Susan's arrest. [PRS update: Susan was arrested and released on her own recognizance.] Our theory is that the father did not want to further antagonise Betty if Betty was about to submit to his demands, and so he had asked the police to hold off on arresting Susan. On the other hand, he still was not certain whether Betty was going to actually turn herself in. So he was giving us until Monday for Betty to turn up. In the meantime, Betty's brother wrote back to her with the terms for her return, which are that she would need to put her son back into a private school and move into a house adjacent to her parents. If she would do that, her father would have the charges dropped. In the same letter, however, her brother said that if she did not act quickly, then Susan would also be arrested. And he added that just the fact that Roland is out on bail should not be taken as a sign that he is free from further danger, as it could happen that his bail conditions could be reversed and he could be taken back into police custody indefinitely. We are deeply concerned about this veiled threat. PRWN: Can I assume that the Kenyan police feel that they can obtain information about Betty's whereabouts by threatening Roland and Susan with a lengthy detention? DM: Yes, that is correct. However, I think that they are starting to accept that our members in Kenya really do not know her whereabouts as such, since she moved out on her own. But they do know that they can continue to use Roland and Susan as bait to get her to turn herself in. I should think that they would also know that much still depends on our own resolve to protect her. We are in contact with her via email, and if we placed heavy pressure on her, she might actually risk losing her son in order to save Roland and Susan too much discomfort. PRWN: What actions, if any, have you or other Jesus Christians taken towards securing Roland's release? What about the Australian embassy? Can they (or are they even willing to) intervene in this case since both Roland and Susan are citizens? DM: We have succeeded in getting Roland out on bail, after he spent 25 days in custody. He is having a difficult time adjusting to the horrors of what could await him when he goes to court, and we are just trying to give him time to rest up from his prison experience for now. As for the court case, it hardly seems necessary to prepare a defence, since Betty herself is our key witness. But we also realise that Roland could actually end up spending more time in jail waiting for a trial to be held than he would get if he were found guilty of abduction and given the maximum penalty. The average time for a case to be heard in Kenya is three years, and many Kenyans on charges as minor as traffic violations are held in custody until their turn comes up in court. A recent article in a Kenyan newspaper noted that there are prisoners in remand who have been there for as long as 18 years, still without a trial. We are hoping to start an email/fax campaign to have the charges dropped either this week or next week. We will be sending out a request for people to write, and giving them the email/fax addresses to write to. Consulates as a rule are reticent to become involved in any local legal battles. Their presence alone, however, does act as a great deterrent against corruption. A representative of the Australian Consulate made efforts to visit Roland when he was being held without charge for so many days (eleven, in all) and we believe that it was largely because of that that charges were actually laid. (We were relieved by that, because prior to charges being laid, there was a chance of Roland just being killed and dumped somewhere without his name ever having appeared on any official reports.) However, we are hoping to be able to get the Consulate to put in a request for the charges to be dropped, on the grounds that Betty herself has said via videotape that she is not being held. That will be one prong of our email/fax campaign. PRWN: Some of the news articles mention that Betty's father is seeking to locate his grandson. Is this becoming a custody issue? DM: This never really was much more than a custody issue. Of course the fact that he disagrees with Betty's decision to live a very humble lifestyle (as a Jesus Christian) in contrast to the opulent wealth of the family as a whole, is why he has decided to do what he can to take her son away from her. He is hopeful, I'm sure, that he can not only get the grandson, but also get Betty out of the community through this battle. PRWN: A recent press release on your website indicates that Betty and Joshua are no longer residing with the local Jesus Christians community and that their present whereabouts are unknown. Whereas one of the beliefs shared by members of your group is "living together in a community of believers" - how is the group being affected by Betty and her son living apart? Is it possible that this separation could impact Betty's religious outlook? DM: I touched on that in an earlier answer. Yes, there are dimensions of fellowship that she is definitely missing out on, and it is especially difficult at a time when she really does need some close personal support. She is continuing to read much of our literature, so that she can have a better understanding of where we are coming from, but she is restricted in terms of how much firsthand knowledge she can have of the way things go from day to day in a fulltime Christian community. A matter of particular concern to us is that professional cult-busters (who we have reason to believe have been brought into this by her father) have a fairly high record of success in brainwashing people against groups if they are able to get the person before they have had deep personal involvement in the group. The reason for this is that the cult-busters start by doing much like Fred has already done through the media a bit, and that is to accuse the group of a long list of evils or heresies, until they find one that strikes a bit of fear into the heart of the new convert. The longer converts have been with the community, however, the more confident they can be that the charges are false. Of course, one NEVER can be totally certain that there are not some secret doctrines or practices that really are known to the cult-busters but which have been hidden from the new convert. We have tried to be as open as we can with Betty, so that there are no factual claims that can be made against us which she will not have already dealt with. We just hope that she will be able to sift through any untrue claims she may hear if/when she returns to her family. By the way, we have been amazed at the bizarre nature of the claims which have been made already there in Kenya... they go far beyond what we have experienced elsewhere. One of the other Kenyans had a visit with his family last week, and they said that they were told by the police that we remove the blood of all members and replace it with animal blood! And that was just one of a list of similar claims that they heard. Fortunately they believed their son when he told them the claims were not true. PRWN: Will your group remain in Kenya regardless of the legal outcome? DM: We can never be certain about the future, but I would hope that we will be able to remain there. We have a very active ministry there with scores of schools, AIDS orphans, Sudanese refugees, the Quaker Church (Religious Society of Friends), and hopefully with regard to an environmental clean-up program that we hope to start. PRWN: And finally, is there anything you wish to add to this interview that might help the public gain a better understanding of Jesus Christians? DM: I suggest that people visit our web site [link] and perhaps do a search for topics that interest them. There is a wealth of material there that they can read, and we have been fairly open about the accusations which have been leveled against us over the years. There are some articles which are marked "restricted". Some people assume that these are the juicy ones that contain the secrets that we are hiding from the public. Actually, we have restricted them (in many cases) because they are the LESS interesting ones, and because we want to direct people to the best articles first. But anyone who wants to read any of the restricted articles can write to us: fold@idl.net.au and we will give them access to whichever articles they want to see. PRWN: Thank you very much for sharing your insight and bringing my readers up to date.
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