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/ Colormap • Page 6735 • {1/90} (1)Wednesday, 1 November 2000 [Open session] [The witness takes the stand] --- Upon commencing at 9.20 a.m. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning to the technical booth and the interpreters; good morning to the OTP, the Defence counsel. Good morning, General Krstic. We are now going to continue your testimony. You are continuing under oath. (10)I see that Mr. McCloskey is already ready to proceed. Mr. McCloskey, please continue. MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. Good morning, Your Honours, counsel, General Krstic.
WITNESS: RADISLAV KRSTIC
[Resumed] • CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. McCloskey: [Continued] MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could start with Exhibit 609. This is a 15 July interim combat report to Vinko Pandurevic to the Command of the Drina Corps. If you could put the first page of the English on the ELMO, (20)and I'm going to be concentrating on the fifth and sixth paragraphs, the two little ones near the bottom. There we go. That's perfect.
• Q.: Now, General, as we discussed -- this document has been discussed
before. The first three paragraphs basically discuss the difficult
situation posed by the Zvornik Brigade from the column coming up through
(25)them and the Tuzla 2nd Corps threatening on the front lines, but what I
• A.: I learnt of this fact during these proceedings. This document went to the Command of the Drina Corps and not to the forward command post of Krivaca. That was where it was dispatched, the Command of the Drina Corps. And if the Commander of the brigade notes here on the basis of the (15)witnesses who testified, I have no reason to challenge it. • Q.: So the first sentence: "An additional burden for us is large number of prisoners distributed throughout the schools in the brigade area." So that's true? (20) • A.: That has been observed by the Brigade Commander.
• Q.: "As well as obligations of security."
Now, we know from your own version of events that Ljubo Beara, the
Chief of Security for the Main Staff is heading the -- General Mladic's
plan to murder all the prisoners. And also according to yourself, he was
(25)working hand in glove with Lieutenant Colonel Popovic, the Security Chief
• A.: May I respond to that question in private session, please? MR. McCLOSKEY: Agree or disagree. I think all this information came out as part of the public session. I'm not asking for details, just (5)if he can agree or disagree. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] General Krstic, could you just say yes or no, please, to the question put to you by the Prosecutor. • A.: Yes. MR. McCLOSKEY: (10) • Q.: And then we have a restoration of the terrain. This is the term "asanacija terena", in the B/C/S. Would restoration of the terrain include the burying of the bodies at Orahovac and Petkovci? • A.: I don't think that that was what it meant. The "asanacija", restoration of the terrain in the fighting with the 28th Division, they (15)attacked from the rear the 21st Zvornik Brigade. • Q.: General, my question is -- • A.: The 1st Zvornik Brigade. I apologise. • Q.: The burying of bodies from the death field at Orahovac, would that be considered "asanacija terena" or restoration of the terrain? (20) • A.: I don't know what the Commander of the brigade had in mind, but I have answered your question. When you speak of "asanacija terena" or restoration, is where combat activities have taken place. And whether it encompasses what you have said, I don't know.
• Q.: Burying bodies after a mass execution can also be restoration of
(25)the terrain, can it not?
• Q.: General, my question is, it's a simple one: Burying the bodies on the field at Orahovac, is that -- could that be referred to as restoration of the terrain? (5) • A.: Restoration of the terrain after combat activities can imply a collecting up the persons killed on both sides. • Q.: Could the burying of the bodies in Orahovac be considered restoration of the terrain? • A.: I don't know whether burying bodies comes under the concept of (10)restoration of the terrain. • Q.: It does in the situation of combat, doesn't it? • A.: When there is combat, then there is the collection, and this is done by the units in charge of restoration and gathering the bodies of those who were killed on either side. (15) • Q.: So what does Vinko Pandurevic mean when he says "the burden for us"? Is he speaking of the Zvornik Brigade? • A.: I think he is speaking about the prisoners whom someone brought to the area of responsibility of his brigade. • Q.: I'm asking you what the meaning of "us" is. (20) • A.: The Zvornik Brigade probably. • Q.: And if the Zvornik Brigade's obligations of security were the obligations imposed on them by Colonel Beara, what would those obligations have been?
• A.: Probably security, security of the facilities and features where
(25)the prisoners were.
• A.: I answered that question earlier on. • Q.: Next paragraph: "This command ..." Does he mean the Zvornik (5)Brigade command? • A.: Yes. • Q.: "This command cannot take care of these problems any longer." Now, "these problems," these are the problems of obligation of security and restoration of the terrain, are they not? (10) • A.: He is probably thinking of the security issue. • Q.: The one we just spoke of regarding the responsibilities imposed upon him by Ljubo Beara, pursuant to orders from General Mladic? I'm sorry. I interrupted you. What was your answer? You said yes? • A.: I didn't answer the question. (15) • Q.: Okay. Well, let me try to clear it up. So the problems that Vinko Pandurevic cannot take care of any longer are the obligations of security; is that right? • A.: He is probably thinking of that. • Q.: Therefore, by that sentence, "The command cannot take care of (20)these problems any longer," by that sentence we know that he has been taking care of those problems up until the time he wrote this letter, can we not?
• A.: I don't know when the prisoners of war started arriving there,
what that time period was. On the 14th, between the 14th and 15th of
(25)July, he returned from Zepa to his own area of responsibility.
• A.: I don't think he's thinking about that. I don't think Vinko (5)Pandurevic is thinking of ammunition. • Q.: But the material needed for mass executions are ammunition; correct? JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. McCloskey, ask the General what material he thinks is necessary for executions, and then you can go (10)into the specificities of that. MR. McCLOSKEY: • Q.: General, what materials are needed for executions in the context like Orahovac, when you have those sorts of numbers? • A.: I don't know what materials are needed. That is something that (15)the person that did that, executed that, knew, and it wasn't Vinko Pandurevic, and I am quite sure that he wasn't thinking of those materials. If he was thinking of anything, he was probably thinking of food for his brigade and for the prisoners of war. He does not speak here at all about executions of any kind. (20) • Q.: "If no one takes on this responsibility, I will be forced to let them go." Who is he referring to? Letting who go? • A.: Probably the prisoners of war. • Q.: Located in the schools distributed throughout his area? • A.: That's what he said: in the schools. (25)
• Q.: So are you saying that the burden that he's concerned with is the
• A.: Precisely so. • Q.: Those are the prisoners that were blindfolded and murdered on the (5)field of Orahovac, weren't they? • A.: I don't know whether at that time when Vinko Pandurevic was writing his report whether the prisoners of war were blindfolded, had blindfolds on their eyes, because he doesn't speak about that in his report. (10) • Q.: Do you remember the survivor witnesses who described the dead that piled up in the gym, that died of exposure or something else and were pushed off into a corner of the gym? • A.: I remember when a witness spoke about that, but Vinko Pandurevic, in his report, makes no mention of that anywhere. (15) MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 627. JUDGE WALD: Can I just ask a couple of questions to straighten something out. Vinko Pandurevic had been with you, General, at the forward command post before he was called back to his brigade down in Zvornik; is (20)that right? He had been up in Zepa with you? • A.: Yes, that's right. JUDGE WALD: At the forward command post? Go ahead.
• A.: I apologise. He wasn't at the forward command post, he was with
his unit in the area of deployment for the completion of the assignment
(25)towards Zepa. So he was in that area towards Zepa.
• A.: Yes. (5) JUDGE WALD: So when he went back -- when he was called back to Zvornik to take care of this situation and then when he sent his communique, Exhibit 609, who -- it was addressed to the Drina Corps Command; was that not right? I don't have it in front of me, but I think that's right. Is it addressed to the Drina Corps Command? (10)Who would he have expected was at the Drina Corps Command to receive that communique? • A.: This communique was to be received by the Corps Commander, General Zivanovic. JUDGE WALD: Was General Zivanovic at the regular command post at (15)that time on July 15th when he sent it? • A.: He was the Corps Commander. JUDGE WALD: I know he was Corps Commander. I'm just asking you whether you know whether on July 15th, when this was sent, he was at the corps command post at Pribicevac. (20) • A.: I don't know whether he was at the command post in Vlasenica or whether he was somewhere in the area, in the area of responsibility of the corps and those brigades.
JUDGE WALD: All right. My last question to you is: Did
Pandurevic return to the Zepa front after July 15th? Did he come back to
(25)his -- the parts of his unit that were in Zepa after July 15th? Did he
• A.: He stayed in Zvornik. He did not go back to Zepa. JUDGE WALD: I see. So when was -- when was the next time after July 15th that you saw or had reason to talk to Pandurevic personally, (5)face to face? Do you remember when you next saw him personally? • A.: I don't remember when I next saw him. JUDGE WALD: Do you remember whether it would be weeks or months later or a few days later? • A.: I think I saw Colonel Pandurevic with his unit in the area of (10)responsibility of the 2nd Krajina Corps in Western Bosnia when I went there to tour the units in that corps and his unit among all the others. JUDGE WALD: And last part of my question: At that time, although that was later, obviously, at that time did you have any discussion or conversation with Colonel Pandurevic about these events? (15) • A.: No, I did not talk to him. JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you, General. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] General, I too have two questions for you. Pandurevic, he left for his area of responsibility, but before that he was with you at the Zepa operation. That was the zone (20)or what was -- what were his tasks, his assignments in the Zepa operation? Could you remind me of that, please? • A.: He had his own assignment stemming -- pursuant to the order for Zepa with part of his unit, like all the other units that were engaged for Zepa. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] And his brigade, where was it
• A.: You mean towards Zepa? It was deployed in the area of Podplan, which was the area of deployment when the unit arrived in the area, and from there it was to go to accomplish its assignment towards Zepa. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Therefore, he had to leave. Did he inform you that he would have to leave? • A.: He received orders. He got orders from me, that is to say, from General Zivanovic, in fact. General Zivanovic called and said that he had to return urgently with his unit, and that was on the 14th of July. I (10)think it was in the afternoon hours, that the situation was highly complex and serious in the area of responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade. And I conveyed that to Colonel Pandurevic, and in the course of the night, between the 14th and 15th, he returned to his own area of responsibility. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Complex and difficult for what (15)reasons? When I say "complex and difficult," why? I'm asking whether you know, whether you were informed of the reasons that led to the situation and which led to conclude that the situation was difficult and complex. • A.: First of all, because of the attack of the 2nd Corps of the BH army from the direction of Tuzla towards the area of responsibility of (20)the brigade and because of the attack of the 28th Division from the rear, the flanks of that brigade. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Was there any mention of the existence of prisoners? • A.: No. There was no mention at all of the presence of prisoners. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you. Please continue,
MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. • Q.: Who was in charge of the brigade command in the absence of Commander Pandurevic up in Zvornik? (5) • A.: The Chief of Staff of that brigade, Major Obrenovic. • Q.: And who would have been the person that would have briefed Pandurevic on the situation in his brigade when Colonel Pandurevic returned on the 15th of July? • A.: He should have been briefed and informed on the situation by his (10)Chief of Staff, Major Obrenovic. • Q.: You spoke to Major Obrenovic on the 15th of July, didn't you? You had been very clear that the only time you ever found out anything about anything in the Zvornik area while you were in Zepa was in a communication with that brigade. (15) • A.: Yes. After General Zivanovic called the forward command post, Major Obrenovic called as well. I don't remember whether I talked to him or it was Colonel Vicic or Major Jevdjevic who talked to him, but at any rate, it happened in the afternoon hours of the 14th. And the contents of the conversation was similar to what was said by General Zivanovic, that (20)is, that the situation was very difficult and that one part of the Zvornik Brigade should return to its area of responsibility, and Obrenovic said that the order of General Zivanovic was conveyed to Colonel Pandurevic.
• Q.: So on 14 July there was a full briefing of the Drina Corps
command, including yourself, on the situation in the Zvornik Brigade area
(25)of responsibility?
(5) • Q.: There was a -- the command staff was briefed by Major Obrenovic on the situation in the Zvornik area on the 14th of July? • A.: Major Obrenovic called the forward command post after General Zivanovic, and he said that the situation was difficult and he requested that the brigade commander be returned with one part of his brigade to (10)their area of responsibility. • Q.: So Major Obrenovic actually called the Krivaca forward command post, where you were working? • A.: Yes. Through the Drina Corps command, through the communications centre in Vlasenica, that is, the Drina Corps headquarters. (15) • Q.: So you were able to get information either directly from Obrenovic or from whoever he talked to at that point, on the 14th? • A.: I have already answered that question. • Q.: I would like to clarify this issue, if I could. I think it's an important issue. So you were able to get information either directly from (20)Obrenovic or from whoever talked to him at that point on the 14th of July?
• A.: I first received the information from the Corps Commander and his
order as to what Vinko Pandurevic should do. After that Dragan Obrenovic,
the Chief of Staff of the brigade, called, and he requested that one
portion of the brigade be returned, that the situation in the brigade's
(25)area of responsibility was difficult. And he was told that Colonel
• Q.: At what time on the 14th did Dragan Obrenovic call the forward (5)command post? • A.: In the afternoon hours of that day, in the evening. I don't remember the exact time. • Q.: I don't need an exact time, General, but afternoon/evening, is that your best estimate? (10) • A.: I think that it was sometime around 1800 hours, just before the evening. • Q.: So a full briefing, then, on the events that had been going on on the afternoon of the 14th in the Zvornik Brigade area would include what? • A.: First of all, that was not a full briefing. All that was said was (15)that the situation in the area of responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade was difficult. • Q.: General, my question was: What would a full briefing -- assuming he gave you a full briefing, what would a full briefing have involved? • A.: It is very difficult to respond to assumptions; however, Major (20)Obrenovic referred to a difficult situation because of the attack of the 2nd Corps from the direction of Tuzla and because of the attack of the 28th Brigade in the rear of the 1st Zvornik Brigade.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] General, I'm sorry to interrupt
you. This is not an assumption, what we are talking about here. We are
(25)talking about military practice and military rules and regulation. That
• A.: Major Obrenovic spoke only about the difficulty of the situation in his area of responsibility, that the attacks from the direction of Tuzla and by the 28th Division were very fierce, and he wanted the forces (10)of the brigade to be returned, the forces of the brigade that were engaged in the area of Zepa. That was all he said. That was the request made by Major Obrenovic. He didn't speak about anything else. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, but General, if we say that a subordinate officer informs his superior officer -- I'm talking about (15)the chain of command here -- and if he tells him, "I'm in a very difficult and a very complex situation," you, as the Chief of Staff, do you accept this as a piece of information? Don't you ask the reasons why? Don't you want to know what kind of information exactly we are talking about? Because if you say the situation is very difficult and complex, you're (20)merely providing an opinion. The person who has to take certain measures and certain decisions has to know what the situation is in reality and what the reasons are. So what we are talking about is: Did he have to explain that piece of information or was it sufficient for him to say that he was in a difficult and a complex situation? (25)
• A.: Your Honour, it was by all means enough, the fact that he said
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you. You have answered (5)the question. Mr. McCloskey, please continue. MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. • Q.: General Krstic, would a full explanation of the situation in the brigade's zone of responsibility on the afternoon/evening hours of the (10)14th include the facts that they had to store thousands of prisoners in the schools in their area and they had to spend most of the day executing them and burying them, that particular situation? Shouldn't that have been part of a full briefing by Major Obrenovic? • A.: No. No. Major Obrenovic didn't even speak about that. (15) MR. McCLOSKEY: If we can go to Exhibit -- JUDGE WALD: I've got one last question. When General Zivanovic asked you to relay the order to Major Pandurevic that he should go back and rejoin the rest of his brigade down in Zvornik, where was General Zivanovic physically located? When he told you to relay that order to (20)Pandurevic, where was he? • A.: He was at the Vlasenica command post. This is where he called me from. JUDGE WALD: Right. And that was on the 14th, right? • A.: Yes, on the 14th. (25)
JUDGE WALD: Thank you. I just wanted to get that.
• Q.:
[redacted] JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Petrusic. (5) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, the question was previously raised in a private session because it concerns information as to who gave that particular piece of information to General Krstic. So I should like to ask to either move into private session or for the question to be withdrawn, bearing in mind the fact that the broadcast is 30 minutes (10)delayed. MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, I apologise. I think Mr. Petrusic is correct. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. McCloskey, I'm sorry, I was waiting for the interpretation. (15) MR. McCLOSKEY: I apologise. I believe Mr. Petrusic is correct on that point, and it would be more appropriate to go into private session based on our agreements and rulings.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well then. We will move
into a private session
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. We are in public session. Please continue, Mr. McCloskey. (25)
MR. McCLOSKEY:
• A.: Approximately 50 kilometres, I think. MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 627A. • Q.: Now, this is an intercept that the Prosecution has dated as 16 (5)July, at 1111 hours, between Colonel Ljubo Beara and a Cerovic. Can you remind the Court: There is a Cerovic in the Drina Corps staff, in the -- is it -- I'm sorry. What is Cerovic's position? I'm running out of words, thankfully. • A.: Assistant commander for morale, religious, and legal affairs. (10) • Q.: What does the term "triage" mean to you in a military medical sense? • A.: In a military sense, as in any other sense, first of all, I think it comes from medicine, this particular expression, "triage." It has to do with the separation of the sick and the wounded and their further (15)treatment. When it comes to the army, this is something that is also done in peacetime as well. Every day triage has to be done on the soldiers, and after the triage they are sent further on for further treatment or examination, if necessary. • Q.: Are you familiar with the name Trkulja? Is there a Trkulja in the (20)Drina Corps or the Main Staff that was involved in the events around Zvornik between July 16th and July 18th? • A.: I should like to ask for a private session, if possible, please. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Security reasons again, General Krstic? (25)
• A.: Yes.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Please continue, Mr. McCloskey. MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could have Exhibit 630A bis. This again is (20)a 16 July intercept, at 1355 hours, between Zlatar and Palma. • Q.: General, to direct you down near the bottom, this appears to be someone asking for a -- "Just have him brief me on what's new for Zlatar 1." So that means someone is looking for a briefing for the Drina Corps headquarters or the Drina Corps Commander, or can you tell? (25)
• A.: I really don't know who the person in question is here. This was
• Q.: My question was: When this makes a reference to Zlatar 1, do you know if that is for -- a briefing for the Drina Corps centre as a command (5)or is it a specific reference to the commander of the Drina Corps? • A.: I don't know what this refers to. • Q.: And they made a small corridor so the civilians could pull out. And in fact, on the 16th of July Vinko Pandurevic did make a small corridor so the Muslim civilians, as well as soldiers, could go through to (10)the free territory; is that right? • A.: This is what I heard here during the trial. • Q.: The first time you ever heard about Vinko Pandurevic letting out the Muslim soldiers and civilians was at this trial? • A.: I believe it was the first time, yes. (15) MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour --
JUDGE WALD: I have one further question.
General, would Colonel Pandurevic have had the military authority
and structure of the army to make a decision like allowing a corridor so
that part of this column, which consisted some of soldiers, some of
(20)civilians, could go through, or would he, under military structure then in
operation, have had to get somebody's consent for that, to create a small
corridor so that civilians and military who had been up to this time,
apparently, being both fought and captured and taken prisoner, could now
go through? Could he have done that on his own authority or did he have
(25)to get someone else's authority to create that corridor?
JUDGE WALD: Thank you. (5) MR. McCLOSKEY: One quick question on that subject. • Q.: Vinko Pandurevic got in a little bit of trouble for doing this without the commander's authority, didn't he? • A.: I don't know that. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] This seems to be a convenient (10)time for a break, 15-minute break. --- Recess taken at 10.19 a.m. --- On resuming at 10.33 a.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. McCloskey, you may continue. (15) MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. If we could have Exhibit 620A. This is a 16 July intercept at 1358 hours, between the Zlatar duty officer and the Palma duty officer initially, and then it goes into several names.
• Q.: General Krstic, if you could take a look at that. I know you've
(20)seen that before.
Now, this intercept involves, and I'll start at the third line:
"Palma duty officer speaking. 500 litres of D2 for Lieutenant
Colonel Popovic."
Then it goes down and says, "Hello, is that Basevic? And then
(25)somebody finally says, "Yes, it is."
• A.: There were several Basevics, quite a few Basevics in the Drina Corps staff. Among others, there was Basevic in the command of the Drina Corps. (5) • Q.: Yes. In the command, what was the Basevic in the command? • A.: Basevic was a clerk in the technical service, in the logistics base of the Corps Command. • Q.: So would he deal with fuel allocations as part of his job? • A.: I don't know whether that is his job. (10) • Q.: In this field, in the command staff, you have no idea whether or not he might be involved in getting fuel allocations at times in the Technical Services Branch? • A.: That is ensured by the Assistant Commander for Logistics, and from the Technical Service as well that would be to be too, from the Traffic (15)and Communications Service as well. • Q.: On 16 July, there were buses -- by the evidence that has been presented in this case, there were buses travelling from the Kula school in Pilica to the Branjevo farm all day long transporting prisoners to the execution fields at Branjevo farm. And if Lieutenant Colonel Popovic was (20)going to need fuel for those buses, how would he go about getting it if he started running out of fuel? • A.: I don't know at all whether he dealt in fuel, Lieutenant Colonel Popovic, whether he needed fuel at all.
• Q.: My question was: If Popovic did need fuel for any job, how would
(25)he go about getting it?
• Q.: For the Drina Corps? • A.: Yes, of the Drina Corps. • Q.: So he would do something like in one of the lines down near the (5)bottom: "He just called me from the field and told me to pass you the message over there." So Popovic might call from the field from the Drina Corps and pass the message on that he needed fuel? That would be one day to do it? • A.: I don't know. (10) • Q.: All right. On the second page of the English there's a mention that: "Well, then get in touch with Rosevic." Do you know a Rosevic in the Drina Corps Command Staff? • A.: We didn't have any Rosevic in the Drina Corps Command Staff. I don't know that surname at all in connection with the Drina Corps. (15) • Q.: There's a place called Rocevic near Kozluk, isn't there? • A.: I don't know. • Q.: Is the Basevic you're referring to in the technical service a clerk? • A.: We didn't mention any Vasic in the Technical Service. (20) • Q.: I'm sorry. It was Basevic. • A.: Yes, in the Technical Service. • Q.: Isn't there, in fact, a Major Basevic, that you used to drive to work with, in the Technical Services?
• A.: I don't know. That was Lieutenant Colonel Basevic. I don't know
(25)whether he was a Major at that time.
• A.: His job was to see to the fact that the technical equipment functioned properly. • Q.: Could he be involved in the fuel? (5) • A.: A technical state of weapons. I don't know. • Q.: Okay. On the second page in the English, in the middle, it says, "Give me the operations duty officer. Is Major Golic there by chance?" And then someone answers, "Yes," and then the person says, "Let me talk to him." And then the person says, "Golic, Pop just called me and told me to (10)contact you. 500 litres of D2 to be sent to him immediately, otherwise, his work will stop." Then it talks about a bus loaded with fuel going to Pilica village. Now, we know that Pilica village is the village that the Kula school is located at, don't we? (15) THE INTERPRETER: I'm afraid we cannot hear the General's answer. The microphone does not seem to switch on for the first one of words. MR. McCLOSKEY: • Q.: They're not getting your response, so you may need to try to speak into the microphone. It may be a faulty mic. So try to speak up if you (20)could, I think. • A.: I apologise. I turned my head towards the map. The village of Pilica is on the road towards Zvornik. • Q.: And then at the bottom of the page we have Lieutenant Colonel Krsmanovic, who we've learned was -- what was his job again? (25)
• A.: In the Drina Corps we had several Krsmanovics as well, and
• Q.: He was a Lieutenant Colonel at the time? • A.: Yes. He was a Lieutenant Colonel. (5) MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could go to 619A. • Q.: General, what is this document? • A.: It is a material list. • Q.: And what is the purpose of this document? • A.: The purpose of every material list is what has been issued and (10)received with respect to the technical resources and materiel. • Q.: And so the substance of this exhibit indicates that Lieutenant Colonel Popovic received 500 litres of diesel fuel; is that right? • A.: I did not compile this document. It says here to whom it is dispatched. (15) • Q.: And that addressee station is for Lieutenant Colonel Popovic? • A.: Yes. In the document that's what it says. • Q.: And is the Zvornik Brigade involved in any way in this document? • A.: It has the stamp of the Zvornik Brigade, the military post from Zvornik, but whether this is its military post, I don't know. There were (20)other military posts, apart from the Zvornik Brigade military post, in Zvornik. • Q.: Do you see any personnel from the Main Staff mentioned in this document? • A.: I don't see it, no. I don't know who it refers to. (25)
• Q.: So do you see any indication in this document that the Main Staff
• A.: I don't know who these individuals are, the signatures of these individuals, so I can't comment. • Q.: In space 14, under -- is it name and address of recipient, in the (5)original I believe it just -- it says "KDK." And what does that mean? • A.: KDK could be an abbreviation for the command of the Drina Corps. MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, that is my understanding is the meaning of that, and I note that the translation says "commander of the Drina Corps," and that should be changed and corrected to be "command of (10)the Drina Corps." THE INTERPRETER: Command of the Drina Corps. The interpreter apologises. MR. McCLOSKEY: And we'll try to have that straightened out for your exhibits. If we could now go to Exhibit 63A [sic] (15)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Mr. McCloskey, just one moment,
please.
[In English] I would like to see the document, please. (20) • A.: I don't know who that person M. Krstic is.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] I can see in the English
version, and I haven't got the B/C/S version, but I think that there is a
signature, at least in the B/C/S version. Is there in fact a signature?
Does a signature exist? And if so, do you know that signature? Do you
(25)recognise the signature, General Krstic?
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, but to have diesel fuel, would this document have to go to Sokolac or Bijeljina? • A.: Well, supplies for all the units in the area came from the logistic base at Sokolac and Bijeljina, and I think that the Zvornik (10)Brigade relied on logistic supplies at the 35th Base in Bijeljina. They relied on that base. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Thank you. Mr. McCloskey, please proceed.
MR. McCLOSKEY: Mr. President, for the record, Mr. Butler
(15)testified about this document, and I believe he identified these names.
It is not part of the Prosecution's submission that this M. Krstic is the
General. We believe he's a conscript in the Zvornik Brigade. And there's
a Milorad Krstic in the logistics branch. There's also, at the bottom
right-hand corner, received by Branko Bogicevic. There's also a Zvornik
(20)person by that name also.
And if we then -- I think we're at Exhibit 635A, and the
transcript may have -- may be wrong when I mentioned this before, so we
should try to fix that, if possible. It's 635/A.
This is a 16 July intercept in the afternoon of 1602 hours,
(25)between Zlatar and Palma, and Zlatar says: "Give me 01."
• A.: Zlatar 01. I don't know whether anybody had that name, code name. I don't know whether it was the duty officer, operative officer or the Corps Commander, or what. (5) • Q.: Isn't 01 the Corps Commander? • A.: No. I don't know that 01 referred to the Corps Commander. That is not stated in any document. It doesn't say in any document that the commander is referred to as 01. He has his name and surname and his rank and duty. (10) • Q.: And extension 385, that's the same extension that in the intercept of 15 July that General Zivanovic referred Colonel Beara to call. Does it help refresh your recollection on the 385 and whose extension that may have been on 16 July? • A.: I don't know. (15) MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 638/1A, and if the General could be given the B/C/S version, which is 638/1B. • Q.: General Krstic, while you were in -- operating in Zepa, did you ever need fuel? • A.: No. (20) • Q.: Never had to go through Basevic to get some fuel? • A.: There was no need. The fuel for motor vehicles was not very often used. The vehicles were not often used. And as I have already said in relation to the Srebrenica operation, the units that took part in the operation relied on their logistical support. (25)
MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could have Exhibit 622A now. This is a
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. McCloskey, I will take this (5)opportunity and tell you that there is a correction that needs to be done on the transcript, as the registrar has just informed me. Madam Registrar, what is it all about? Could you tell us? THE REGISTRAR: It's Exhibit 635/A. You said "635/1A," so I just wanted to clarify. (10) MR. McCLOSKEY: Mine had "1A" on it, but I think we know which one it is. Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you. MR. McCLOSKEY: • Q.: Now, General, if you could take a moment -- have they given you (15)the B/C/S version of this? MR. McCLOSKEY: The General needs the B/C/S version of 622A. He can have mine if that will simplify it. • Q.: General, if you could take a moment to familiarise yourself with this intercept which we have again seen before. (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Your question, Mr. McCloskey, please. MR. McCLOSKEY:
• Q.: General Krstic, this begins by, as I stated, that Lieutenant
Colonel Popovic asked to be connected with General Krstic, and he was not
(25)there, so he then asked to be connected with the OC. What is the OC in
• A.: I can talk about this not only in this particular context but in general [as interpreted] This refers to the operations centre where the duty operations officer usually sits. (5) • Q.: And do you know someone that may have been on duty in the operations centre on 16 July named Rasic, with the nickname Rale? • A.: As far as I know, at the Drina Corps we did not have an officer by the surname of Rasic, especially not within the Command of the Drina Corps. I don't think that any of the officers with the surname of Rasic (10)would be there with whom Lieutenant Colonel Popovic would contact concerning the Drina Corps. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Visnjic. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, line 22, which is still on the screen, I believe that the answer was not interpreted in (15)precise terms. The General actually said, "I cannot speak about this particular context but only in general terms." JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Mr. Visnjic. I too heard that. Does the Prosecutor have any objections? Is there an answer that (20)needs to be corrected? No? Very well. Thank you. The transcript has been corrected. Thank you very much, Mr. Visnjic. MR. McCLOSKEY: • Q.: Is there an operations centre at the Main Staff?
• A.: At every command, starting from the brigade or regimental level,
(25)there would be an operations centre and a duty operations officer there.
• A.: In this particular context, I see no reason at all for Lieutenant (5)Colonel Popovic to ask for me. I didn't know where that person was, and, well, if he wanted to look for me, he should have done so through the operations centre of the Drina Corps Command. • Q.: I understand that, General, but my question was: If someone was to try to call you at the Krivaca forward command post, let's say from (10)Zvornik, what operations centre would they call? • A.: The operations centre of the Drina Corps Command. • Q.: And then the operations centre, to find you, would patch them down to you at the Krivaca forward command post. Is that how it works? • A.: Yes. That's what the communications people know best. (15) • Q.: But you know it too? • A.: As far as I know, I myself being from the infantry, this is a type of communication. • Q.: Okay. • A.: Mediation in communication. (20) • Q.: And when communication comes through Zvornik to the operations centre and gets patched down to the forward command post in Krivaca, those communications are on open lines and interceptable, are they not? • A.: Those lines are protected ones.
THE INTERPRETER: I'm afraid we didn't hear the beginning of the
(25)answer.
• Q.: General, they had a hard time hearing you again. Your voice is falling off, so you need to try to speak into the mic if you can. • A.: Those are the protected lines. (5) • Q.: But a communications person may know better than you about these particular lines, would he not? Say -- • A.: Yes, in any case. • Q.: Okay. On page 2 of the English there's a mention of Vidoje Blagojevic, who, as we know now, is the commander of the Bratunac Brigade, (10)and there's talk in this intercept of Blagojevic's men arriving to some event on the 16th associated with Colonel Popovic, late. Do you recall Drazen Erdemovic's testimony that the men from Bratunac arrived in the afternoon to assist them in the executions at Branjevo Farm on July 16th? • A.: Yes. He spoke about that. (15) • Q.: There's mention of a -- • A.: I mean, Erdemovic did, but I don't know whether these are the soldiers in question. I'm not familiar with the fact that they were detached [as interpreted] and under whose orders, except for what I heard during the trial and on the basis of documents, and yesterday during your (20)examination, that as of the 14th, one or two companies of the Zvornik Brigade had to be dispatched for the purposes of reinforcement, for combat operations with the forces of the 2nd Corps of the BH army, and the 28th Division of the BH army as well.
• Q.: By my interpretation, you said, "One or two companies of the
(25)Zvornik Brigade had to be dispatched." Did you mean Bratunac Brigade or
• A.: In the report of Colonel Milanovic and Colonel Blagojevic, the report of the 14th or the 15th, I don't think -- I don't know exactly the date -- that somebody ordered that one to two companies should be sent to (5)the Zvornik Brigade for the purposes of reinforcing the troops of the Zvornik Brigade in combat operations along the front lines. • Q.: Yes, but those were Bratunac Brigade troops that were sent up to Zvornik, is that right, not Zvornik Brigade troops? • A.: Yes, yes, of the Bratunac Brigade. (10) MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 650A. THE WITNESS: Sorry to interrupt you. I am referring -- I'm talking about this in the context of the previous documents, the documents that we have already discussed, not in the context of this particular document. (15) MR. McCLOSKEY: Now, if the General could be given the B/C/S version of this. And I know it's a little difficult to make out. This is another familiar intercept from 17 July at 0615 hours. And by the note at the top, it is between General Krstic and Captain Trbic, and then switchboard and then Pandurevic. (20) • Q.: First of all, General, is there a Captain Trbic in Zvornik, that you know? • A.: No, I don't know that there was a person by that surname. • Q.: Isn't there a Captain Trbic that worked in the security branch under Drago Nikolic, Chief of Zvornik Security? (25)
• A.: No. I'm not familiar with that at all. I didn't even know who
• Q.: So if we read the first couple of lines, it starts off with T saying, "Yes," and then K: "General Krstic." And then T says, "Go ahead, (5)General, sir. This is duty operations officer, Captain Trbic." And then Krstic says, "Trbic!" And then T says, "Yes. Go ahead." And then Krstic says, "What's new?" At 0615 hours on 17 July are you already up and about? • A.: I was not involved in this conversation at all. I didn't take (10)part in it. There's no -- security chiefs are never on duty within an operations service. They have their own duty service. This is something that is regulated with the military rules. • Q.: I understand that's -- • A.: I'm sorry to interrupt you, Mr. McCloskey. -- if this Captain (15)Trbic was at all with the Security Service. • Q.: General, I understand that's your general response to these intercepts. I would like to ask you just specific questions related to their substance or their names on them. MR. McCLOSKEY: But I see, Your Honour, that it's break time. (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, it is indeed. We will have a 15-minute break at this point. --- Recess taken at 11.17 a.m. --- On resuming at 11.32 a.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Please continue, Mr. McCloskey. (25)
MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
• A.: May I have the exhibit, please, the interim combat report of the 16th? • Q.: General, we can get that for you, but the question is: Did you receive that -- if you need to read the report. Did you receive any (15)interim combat reports down in Krivaca on the 16th? • A.: From the Bratunac Brigade and Colonel Milanovic. Apart from that, I didn't receive any interim combat reports, apart from the ones from the Bratunac Brigade and Colonel Milanovic. Maybe that was dispatched to the Command of the Drina Corps. That is why I would like to have a look at (20)the exhibit, and I should like to ask if I may be shown the exhibit, please.
• Q.: Well, I'll withdraw the questions regarding that, because I don't
have it on hand right now, but we'll try to bring that back.
So on the 16th of July, many Muslim soldiers were killed in the
(25)Zvornik Brigade area of responsibility, were they not?
MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could provide the General Exhibit 614A. It is the interim combat report of 16 July. The B/C/S version there. And if you could put the English version on the ELMO. (5) JUDGE RIAD: Mr. McCloskey, could you clarify your question when you said on the 16th of July, many Muslim soldiers were killed in the Zvornik Brigade area of responsibility. You mean killed in battle or murdered? MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Your Honour. I mean killed in battle. (10) • Q.: You can ignore the highlighted remarks or the highlighted parts. I think that's just our internal ... MR. McCLOSKEY: And if we could move the -- yeah. Move it up some more so we can get the full context of the English report. • Q.: It is the submission of the Prosecution, General, that in this (15)intercept, the question, "Okay. Have you killed the Turks up there?" was reference to the Muslim column that were killed during battle and that the report in question is this report before you, which makes reference to having several hundred Muslims killed in a combat operation on 16 July. And I note in the intercept, "T" says, "Well, I guess you got the (20)report. What more can I tell you?" And "K" says, "I got it." And, again, this is Exhibit 650A. So now that you've had a chance to review this, did you receive this particular interim combat report, 650A?
• A.: You mentioned this exhibit and this conversation. This is -- I
(25)never had this conversation with Trbic, neither did I ever get this
• Q.: All right. Is it your understanding that the column was broken up during this combat that occurred on the 16th of July? (5) • A.: On the basis of this report you mean? Do you mean this report? • Q.: On the basis of your knowledge, getting it from anything, this report, this court, your experience, your participation. • A.: I had no previous knowledge about that at all. • Q.: Let's go down towards the bottom of the page of the Exhibit 650A, (10)the intercept, where according to the intercept there's a conversation now between Krstic -- General Krstic and Vinko, and makes a reference that the Vinko is a commander. The Commander of the Zvornik Brigade is named Vinko Pandurevic; is that correct? • A.: That's correct, yes. (15) • Q.: And I'll read the relevant passage. (K.:) This is Krstic. (P.:) Hello, General, sir. (K.:) Hello, Vinko. Vinko! (P.:) Go ahead. (20) (K.:) Are there any changes in reference to that report? (P.:) Nothing significant. Basically, we'll probably finish this today. (K.:) Finish it? (P.:) Yes. (25)
(K.:) Good.
• A.: I have already said that I never had this conversation. • Q.: Were you aware that the position of the front lines didn't change (10)very much after the major battle that occurred on the 16th of July? • A.: I didn't know about these problems at all, except for what Colonel Cerovic, on the 20th of July, told me at the forward command post of Godjinje [phoen], but I had no other information than that. • Q.: Did you get information about the front lines and the positioning (15)of the front lines in Zvornik after this combat? • A.: No. As I have already said, this report was not sent to the forward command post but to the command of the Drina Corps. It never reached the forward command post. • Q.: Were you concerned, after a major battle, whether or not the front (20)line had changed at all at this time, July 17th? Wouldn't that be something you would be concerned about no matter what your position? • A.: Probably it would. If the situation were such, of the type that you have described, then somebody would order the offensive to be stopped towards Zepa. (25)
• Q.: What did Cerovic tell you about?
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I apologise for interrupting, Mr. McCloskey, but I have a question. General Krstic, you said that Cerovic, I think, informed you that there had been quite a number of problems. Did he specify? Did he (15)mention the type of problems that were being encountered? What type of problems? • A.: Nothing special. He just said that they were having problems and that the situation in the area of responsibility of Zvornik and the 1st Birac Brigade had been brought back to normal. He said that the situation (20)had been normalised. That's how he described it. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Did you have the curiosity -- were you curious to know what type of problems they had been having?
• A.: Because he described the situation in the way he did, I didn't ask
(25)him anything special, because the Zepa operation was ongoing and I had to
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, but as commander, are you convinced that one can learn by the problems one is having to avoid them in future, avoid having the same problems in future? (5) • A.: He didn't speak about any special problems except for the ones he mentioned, and quite simply -- JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, General, but the question is, and I'm going to repeat the question: He said that he was having considerable problems, but were you not interested in knowing what those (10)problems actually were, what his problems were? Were you curious to know? • A.: All he said was that there were -- JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] No. Very well. I'm not going to insist. Mr. McCloskey, you may continue. (15) JUDGE WALD: I have one question. General, to your knowledge, was General Zivanovic at the regular command post in Vlasenica most of the week from the 13th through the 17th, or did he, to your knowledge, come and go? Did he show up there every day, or do you know whether he was there most of the time, in Vlasenica, at the command post, General (20)Zivanovic? • A.: General Zivanovic was the commander of the corps. JUDGE WALD: I understand that.
• A.: He had the right to choose where he would be. So I myself don't
know where he was at the time, whether he was at the command post at
(25)Vlasenica all the time or some other spot in the area of responsibility of
JUDGE WALD: Okay. • A.: That was up to him. JUDGE WALD: I understand that. My next question is: What would (5)the usual army procedure be if a communique or a report comes to the command post and the commander is not there? What would the procedure be? Let it just stay until he comes? Would it go to the next in command, which, under your argument, was yourself, who was still the deputy commander and Chief of Staff, or would it be sent on to him wherever he (10)was? What would happen to a report that came to the command post if the commander was not there? • A.: At all events, these reports and communiques had to reach the commander, and I was involved in my assignment towards Zepa. I was busy with that. And it is quite understandable that they would not have (15)informed me about that except for the Corps Commander who was there. He would be informed and he would take steps, whether he was at the command post or somewhere around in the area of responsibility of the Bratunac Brigade, Milici Brigade, Zvornik Brigade, or whatever, Birac Brigade or Vlasenica Brigade. I don't know. (20) JUDGE WALD: So your answer, if I understand it, is that whoever the commander was, if he wasn't at the command post when a report or a communique of some importance came, whoever was on duty would take steps to get it to him, wherever he was; is that right?
• A.: Yes. If it was urgent, it would be dispatched immediately. If it
(25)wasn't that urgent, then it could wait for the commander's return and then
JUDGE WALD: Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] General, you said that it was quite understandable that the reports or communiques did not reach the (5)forward command post, but was it understandable that no information reached you with respect to the situation that was evolving? When you said "understandable," I'm using your own words. I'm using the term "understandable." • A.: Yes, I understand. It was understandable if the Corps Commander (10)was there and present and following and monitoring the situation, and the Corps Commander knew full well where I was, where I was engaged, and what problems I was facing with respect to my assignment for Zepa. So it was not logical to burden me with that if he himself was there, because we were able to pull out a portion of the Zvornik Brigade and, pursuant to (15)orders from the Corps Commander, return them back to the area of responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade. Therefore, the Zvornik Brigade no longer existed towards Zepa. All its forces were down there. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, General. I was speaking about understandability with respect to reports and communiques. You said (20)that it was understandable. Now, I insisted upon the fact that was it understandable that no information reached you? You said that that was understandable. It didn't reach you, the commander, at the forward command post?
• A.: I'll repeat what I said. There was -- the Zvornik Brigade was not
(25)there any longer.
MR. McCLOSKEY: (5) • Q.: General Krstic, on the 17th of July in the Zepa operation, would you have liked to have had Vinko Pandurevic back assisting you in that operation? • A.: No. Why? I had enough troops for the operation towards Zepa. • Q.: Vinko Pandurevic and his unit were part of the original troops (10)that were sent down there, and they, as we know, had to be pulled back right as the operation was going. So are you saying today you didn't need him back at all? • A.: They were not pulled out in the midst of the operation but at the very beginning of the operation. And aside from the pullout of that part (15)of the Zvornik Brigade -- I mean, apart from them. I had enough forces for the purposes of my operation towards Zepa. MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 652A. And this is a 17 July intercept between Bedem, Krstic, and the name Veletic is mentioned but cannot be heard, according to this document. (20) • Q.: General Krstic, what is the code name Bedem? • A.: I don't know. • Q.: And are you aware of a Colonel Veletic that was part of the Drina Corps?
• A.: Colonel Veletic was Chief of Artillery with the Drina Corps, if
(25)that indeed is the same person.
• A.: It's a very common surname. • Q.: You had a unit in the Drina Corps called the 4th Drinski Brigade? • A.: Yes. It was a temporary formation which was not part of the (5)overall structure. • Q.: Was Colonel Veletic in command of that brigade? • A.: I don't remember. He may have been. As I said, it was a temporary formation which was -- which would be established if necessary. That was the unit that I found when I came back from my treatment. (10) • Q.: And that's the same Colonel Veletic that you mentioned was the Chief of Artillery, Colonel Stojan Veletic? • A.: Yes. Colonel Stojan Veletic is Chief of Artillery. • Q.: Did you ever have a communication -- excuse me. Did you ever want Lieutenant Colonel Vlacic to return to his unit? (15) • A.: I really don't know anything about the fact that Lieutenant Colonel Vlacic was outside of his brigade. • Q.: Could you step to the diagram that we have with the pointer and look over the far side of it. The big exhibit is 28/1. And could you look where we have noted on the far right-hand bottom the 4th Drinski (20)Brigade Commander Colonel Stojan Veletic and the Chief of Staff Lieutenant Colonel Ljubomir Vlacic. Do you see them and can you point those out? • A.: Yes. That's what's written here. • Q.: Is that structure correct? Does this help refresh your recollection? (25)
• A.: Lieutenant Colonel Vlacic was the Chief of Staff of the 1st Birac
• Q.: If you could go to the other end of the diagram and you'll see the organigramme for the Birac Brigade, and we see Lieutenant Colonel Vlacic there also. (10)On July 17th, can you tell us -- can you point out on the far left side on the bottom again is the Birac. • A.: Yes, the Birac Brigade. • Q.: You can take a seat. Thank you, General. On 17 July, what was the -- what were the duties of Lieutenant (15)Colonel Vlacic? • A.: Lieutenant Colonel Vlacic was the Chief of Staff of the 1st Birac Brigade. • Q.: And did you -- was he working in the Sarajevo-Romanija area with the 4th Drinski Brigade on the 17 July? (20) • A.: I don't know that. MR. McCLOSKEY: Let's go to Exhibit 661A.
• Q.: Now, this is an intercept of 17 July. It's the date that the
mobilisation order was signed by you that we talked about yesterday. And
this is a conversation between a general who is at Zlatar, which we know
(25)to be the Drina Corps headquarters in Vlasenica.
• A.: No. MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 662/A bis. (5) • Q.: This again is a 17 July conversation at 1244 hours between "X" and a Trbic. In reading this, does this refresh your recollection as to any Trbic involved with you at the time? • A.: No. MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 664/A bis, another (10)intercept, 17 July, making reference to what appears to be the previous two intercepts where the orders are changed again to let the person finish the work up there. • Q.: Are you familiar with the work that Lieutenant Colonel Popovic was doing on the afternoon of 17 July at Branjevo farm? (15) • A.: No, not at all. I don't know that. • Q.: Do you recall the evidence, the aerial imagery on 17 July of all the bodies on the field at Branjevo farm with a bulldozer working, digging a big hole where bodies were later pulled out of? • A.: I cannot recall all of the details on all mass graves that were (20)testified about by witnesses, the survivors, but I probably heard about this one.
MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 649/A.
This is an order that I know you're familiar with, General, dated
17 July, from commander of the VRS, Colonel General Ratko Mladic, and it
(25)is to the Drina Corps command, for information 1st Zvornik Brigade, 1st
• Q.: And can you briefly tell us your theory of what this document (5)means? • A.: I have already provided an explanation of this document. I can link it with the time when General Mladic ordered that the attack be continued and that the forces enter the town of Srebrenica. Also, with his very explicit words addressed to the Bratunac Brigade command, when (10)he -- when Lieutenant Colonel Pandurevic said to General Mladic that it was not such a good idea to go to Zepa, because they didn't know the whereabouts of the 28th Brigade, and when he said, in very explicit terms, that that was only his concern. And as to the concern of Lieutenant Colonel Popovic, that was Zepa, and that he had enough forces to command (15)over in that area, and also with the presence of Colonel Beara in that area, together with his assistant. In view of all I have said, I think this order can be placed in the same context, that is, the order whereby General Mladic places all of the units in that area under the command of the command group of the Main (20)Staff, which was supposed to coordinate the activities of all the forces engaged in that area. He also designated the command post, that is, where those forces would be commanded from, which was the command post of the military police battalion in Nova Kasaba.
• Q.: When you say this is an indication that he has now taken command
(25)over the forces in these areas, what areas in particular?
• Q.: All right. I would direct your attention to paragraph 1, which is the paragraph that involves Zvornik: "Send three officers, Colonels Nedo Trkulja, Milovan Stankovic, (5)and Bogdan Sladojevic, from the GS VRS to the command of the 1st Zvornik Brigade to assist in the joining of the VRS and MUP forces." Are you telling us that this language, sending these fellows to the Zvornik Brigade to assist is actually placing them under -- over command of these forces? (10) • A.: Well, further down in the text -- • Q.: If you could answer my question -- • A.: That can be clearly seen from the text that follows. • Q.: Could I get a "yes" or "no" answer to that, General Krstic? And then, please, you can explain it. And my question was: -- (15) • A.: Yes. Yes. It places it under the command. • Q.: Could you explain that? Have you already? • A.: I believe that I have already explained that. So in the further text of this order, you can clearly see that. • Q.: I'll continue to read: (20)"After mentioning these three people, sending it to the 1st Zvornik Brigade to assist in the joining of the VRS and MUP forces, the planning and coordination of combat operations to block, crush, and destroy lagging Muslim forces in the wider areas of Kamenica ..." MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I note it's break time. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes, and you're quite right,
--- Luncheon recess taken at 12.15 p.m.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. McCloskey. You may continue. MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. (5) • Q.: I'd like to go paragraph 2 of Exhibit 649A and read it. "The team from the VRS GS shall assess the situation on the brigade's front line and in the rear, the available forces, and hear out the proposal and opinion of the commander of the 1st Zvornik Brigade, on the basis they draw up a plan together with the brigade commander to comb (10)the terrain, block, crush, and destroy the straggling part of armed Muslim groups in the wider area of Kamenica, Cerska and Udric." Now, General Krstic, the first paragraph talks about assisting in the planning and coordination of operations and the second one says get together and draw up a plan together. How do you conclude that that means (15)anything but what those words are saying, assist in joining, working together? • A.: It says here inter alia to listen to the proposal and opinion of the commander of the 1st Zvornik Brigade and together with him to draw up a plan, together with the brigade commander, to comb the terrain. And (20)when there is a plan and somebody -- a superior officer for a task of this kind, then it is quite normal that the officer from the Main Command need not accept the proposal if they do not agree. So it is up to him. He has the final word, the final say. • Q.: You read all that into these two paragraphs? (25)
• A.: Yes.
• A.: It is Lieutenant Colonel Keserovic, because in point 3 -- in (10)paragraph 3 it can be clearly seen that General Mladic is ordering the units which are mentioned in the text, the 1st Bratunac, 1st Milici Brigade, the 67th Regiment and so on. "The battalion of the police, the Protection Regiment, the MUP forces engaged in the wider area of Bratunac, Milici and Drinjaca will (15)comb the territory," et cetera. That means he is issuing orders to all the units, which bears out my former position and stand and opinion in response and answer to your question. • Q.: Well, I think it's very clearly written there that Colonel Keserovic is the Commander of those Bratunac units. You're not suggesting (20)that Colonel Keserovic is the Commander of the Zvornik units, are you?
• A.: The commander of all the forces mentioned. "It says in executing
the task and determine somebody from the security department, the Main
Staff, Lieutenant Colonel Keserovic." So it refers to all the units
mentioned in paragraph 3 at the beginning. And it is General Mladic who
(25)is issuing the order, the assignment.
• A.: Yes. And further in the text it states that he will be in charge of the operations towards Cerska, further engagement towards Cerska, and (5)shall propose a plan to General Mladic. And Cerska is in the area of responsibility of Udric and the Zvornik Brigade. • Q.: He has no forces from the Zvornik Brigade as part of that paragraph, does he? • A.: That is not specifically stated in paragraph 3. It doesn't say (10)the Zvornik Brigade. But if at the top it says that he should hear the Commander of the Zvornik Brigade and his proposal, that is implied, because Cerska and Udric are within the area of responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade. • Q.: And this says, "An order for further engagement towards Cerska (15)shall be proposed to me by Lieutenant Colonel Keserovic." So that is mere proposal at this stage on July 17th. In fact, it's not a proposal yet, it's a mere suggestion to make a proposal. • A.: Yes. It is an order because it says "shall be proposed." That is an order. (20) • Q.: Now, the task in paragraph 3 is to take effect when? • A.: From the 17th of July.
• Q.: So prior to the 17th of July, in particular the 16th of July, we
learned yesterday that Colonel Blagojevic was in command of these same
forces and had actually inspected them and given them tasks; is that
(25)correct? To simplify the question, 17th is Keserovic, 16th is
• A.: Colonel Blagojevic was the commander of the forces in the area that I designated in my earlier testimony. MR. McCLOSKEY: I don't have any other questions on this document, (5)Your Honours. If we could now go to Exhibit 688/A -- 680/A, excuse me. And this is an 18 July intercept at 0716 hours; participants: General Krstic, Sergeant Posaljak, Colonel Cerovic. • Q.: Do you know of a Sergeant Posaljak at the Drina Corps headquarters (10)in Vlasenica? • A.: I don't remember that surname. • Q.: And we've spoken of Colonel Cerovic before, and by this intercept on 18 in the morning, you are looking for Colonel Cerovic, who appears to be having his breakfast, and you tell him to leave his breakfast, "to put (15)him on quickly, man." And the person says, "Understood, General, sir." And you say, "On 385." Again, this is the extension we've heard before. Does this help refresh your recollection as to the extension you had on July 13 and beyond in 1995? (20) • A.: No, I don't remember at all that that was that extension.
• Q.: As we go to the second page in the English, making some commands
and some statements, and you say, "And, well, pay special attention to the
west of you." Cerovic says, "Roger." You say, "I hope everything is okay
down there with Vinko." Cerovic says, "It is. I talked to Vinko last
(25)night. He'll send an additional report today. He stabilised everything
• A.: Colonel Cerovic, assistant to the commander for moral guidance, (5)religious and legal matters. • Q.: And we're talking about 18 July, and Vinko Pandurevic did, in fact, send an interim daily combat report on 18 July. General, are you okay to answer that question? Did you get the question? • A.: I didn't hear the question. (10) • Q.: On July 18th Vinko Pandurevic did, in fact, send to the command of the Drina Corps an interim combat report. You've referred to it previously and it's been discussed previously. Do you remember that? • A.: Yes, but it didn't arrive at the forward command post of Krivaca. I saw that report here for the first time. (15) • Q.: Now, according to this document, you say also that "We understand each other. This is not a secured line," and so on. Did you know that when you spoke over the radio on -- or the telephone on the 18th of July that you may be speaking over an open line? • A.: I wouldn't caution anybody whether it was an open or protected (20)line. I would have to know that in advance and not have to caution anybody of that.
MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 694/A. This is a 19
July intercept at 0812 hours, between Colonel Cerovic and a person by the
name of Vinko. Now, the areas mentioned in the initial part of the
(25)intercept, "They are up there in Crni Vrh, over there at Potocani,
• A.: I only know where Baljkovica is, whereas there are a lot of Crni (5)Vrh, places called Crni Vrh. There are a lot of features that are called Crni Vrh in the area. All I know is about Baljkovica. • Q.: And where is Baljkovica? • A.: In the area of responsibility of the Zvornik Brigade. • Q.: That's the famous -- now famous location where many Muslims and (10)many Serbs died on July 16th? • A.: Well, from the testimonies of the witnesses and from the documents that I have seen here, it would appear so, yes. • Q.: Have you not been to the command room of the Drina Wolves and seen the plaque for the four Drina Wolves that died on 16 July 1995 in (15)Baljkovica? • A.: Not at all. I never saw that. • Q.: Were there still Muslim stragglers in the area of Baljkovica on 19 July, as far as you've learned? • A.: I don't know that. (20) • Q.: Did you make an order around this time period of 19 July to stop shift rotations? • A.: I don't remember whether I gave any orders in that regard or not. • Q.: There's a mention of a shift for Trnovo. What is a shift rotation, and how would it -- how would Trnovo have fit into that? (25)
• A.: I can't remember that.
• A.: I know that the Bratunac Brigade later on was sent to the area of (5)responsibility of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps in its entirety in the Trnovo area and placed under the command of the Sarajevo-Romanija Corps. • Q.: But you recall making no orders about shift rotations at about this time period? • A.: No. (10) • Q.: And then as we go down farther on this, Vinko says, "No, seriously. I've sent you a report yesterday. You could see what kind of losses we sustained." Now, do you recall the 18 of July interim combat report was, in fact, the report that listed the severe losses suffered by the Zvornik Brigade, was it not? (15) • A.: That can be seen here from the documents. • Q.: So that's true; the 18th of July interim combat report did have the losses sustained by the Zvornik Brigade? • A.: Yes, but I said that I never -- the report never reached me at the Krivaca forward command post. I later learnt, and I have a list of the (20)casualties, the soldiers that died and the officers from the Zvornik Brigade in the area.
• Q.: And the next sentence from Cerovic, Colonel Cerovic responding to
that, "Yes, and I presented that to Krstic and wrote him special based on
your interim and daily reports."
(25)Did you receive a special report that incorporated Vinko
• A.: I never received a report like that at all, no. • Q.: So how do you respond to this being written here? And I can call your attention -- I know you're reviewing the copy (5)of the handwritten document that was written on the child's notebook. How did it come to pass, in your view that, these words could be written on the notebook paper? • A.: I don't know. • Q.: Can you think of any possible way a Muslim intercept operator (10)could have thought up these words to -- for any reason? • A.: I don't know. MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to the next exhibit, OTP Exhibit 698A bis. This is a 19 July document between Krstic and Jevdjevic, 2157 hours. (15) • Q.: To remind us about Jevdjevic, do you have a comms person called Jevdjevic? • A.: I have already said countless times that it was the Commander of the Communications Battalion that was at the forward command post of both Pribicevac and Krivaca. (20) • Q.: And according to this conversation, did you have any telephone conversations between yourself and your comms person Jevdjevic within the Zepa operation zone? • A.: I don't remember that I had any conversation whatsoever, except for with the radio relay station RUP 12. (25)
• Q.: Was Jevdjevic with you at the forward command post on July 19,
• A.: Yes. Yes, he was with me at the 23rd command post, but when this message was intercepted, I was already sleeping, staying with my wife's family, and there is no telephone there at all. At that time there was no (5)telephone there. • Q.: Did you ever order 200 men to be needed for the Zepa operation as noted in this intercept? • A.: No. We had enough of our own forces. We needed no reinforcement. (10) • Q.: Down at the bottom of the English page there's a comment about Blagojevic and Srna should be called to come here. Was Srna a nickname or a shortened name for Colonel Andric? • A.: I heard that from Mr. Ruez, and I said perhaps they called him -- they referred to him like that while he was the Commander of the Birac (15)Brigade. • Q.: And there's a mention to a Jokic up in the front of the document, and you mentioned earlier that there is a Predrag Jokic has a Colonel in the Corps Operations Department; is that right? • A.: That is Predrag Jocic and not Jokic. With a "C", not a "K". (20) • Q.: Thank you, General.
MR. McCLOSKEY: Now if we could go to Exhibit 789A, and if we
could give the General a transcript in 789B.
Your Honours, this is a transcript of a tape recording that was
provided to the Defence last night. This is a tape recording that the
(25)Prosecution received from the 2nd Corps forces of Bosnia. In addition to
• Q.: And, General, I'd like to read this to you first and then we will play the tape and then I'll ask you some questions about it. JUDGE WALD: Can you tell me the date? MR. McCLOSKEY: August -- it's been identified from the notebooks, (10)Your Honour, as 2 August 1995. Thank you for asking. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I see Mr. Petrusic on his feet.
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] Mr. President, we are not
challenging that the Defence, during yesterday afternoon, received this
written text, the text of the conversation, as well as the audio
(15)cassette. However, the notebooks that are being mentioned by
Mr. McCloskey, to which he refers as a possible authentic proof of the
verisimilitude and credibility of this conversation as well as a date,
which is the 2nd of August, the Defence has not received, and we,
therefore, consider that on the basis of this assertion, the claim made by
(20)the Prosecutor, we cannot conclude with any certainty whether that is
precisely taken from the notebook that he has mentioned. And experience
has taught us, on the basis of the proceedings so far, that when it comes
to the intercepts, then their confirmation and authenticity was
ascertained in a different fashion, and that was by hearing people who
(25)intercepted the messages. We heard from them.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. McCloskey? (10) MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. It's my understanding, and I was there, that we provided counsel with the copies of the handwritten notebook accounts that they're referring to. We didn't provide them the entire notebook, as we have never provided the entire notebooks, as you're aware, but we did provide them with the photocopied version of the (15)handwritten accounts from the notebook. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] And the Defence was able to verify and to actually see the original? • A.: They did not ask last night, Mr. President, and if they had, we would have certainly shown them to them. (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Sorry. I interrupted you. You did not finish, Mr. McCloskey.
MR. McCLOSKEY: I said, Your Honour, we -- we did provide them the
photocopies of the portions, but they did not ask to see the originals.
Had they, we would have -- well, we would have tried to dig them out of
(25)evidence. I believe they wanted to see the whole notebook, to which we
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. McCloskey, there has been another aspect to the problem which was raised by Mr. Petrusic, the issue of the cassette that you were going to play. He mentioned a modified (5)version. How do you respond to that?
MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. I explained to counsel last night that we
had -- what I provided them in the cassette format was a copy from the
original reel to reel, and that we had placed that cassette format as is
the -- what has become the habit in litigation that I have been involved
(10)in, we have placed that audio on a video, and we have subtitled the video
so that when the words are heard on the audio, you can see them spelled
out. So you have some idea about the emphasis of the language even
though, obviously, it will be in the B/C/S language.
In that regard, in order to identify who is speaking, there's --
(15)when General Krstic is speaking, there's a little photograph of
General Krstic, and when Dragan Obrenovic is speaking, there is a little
picture of Dragan Obrenovic.
Now, this is a somewhat long conversation between some
unidentified people and other parties, Jevdjevic at the end of it. We
(20)have two versions of it on the audio and video that has the whole
conversation, and we have another version that merely has the part where
General Krstic was involved in. And what I told counsel is that we
intended to just play the audio and the video part that included
General Krstic, but, of course, they would have the full tape of the full
(25)conversation and the transcripts that go along with it. And that was the
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Petrusic. THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. (5)
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] Mr. President, I'm going to go back
to the notebooks and the explanation provided by Mr. McCloskey that that
was not a practice and that we didn't request that. During the
Prosecution case it was customary for us to receive photocopies of the
texts, and we have no problem with that, regardless of the time framework
(10)and when we actually receive them. If the Chamber should adopt the
position that this intercepted conversation should serve as the foundation
for the question by my learned colleague from the Prosecution, the
question that he is going to ask to General Krstic, then in that case,
since we do not yet have the authenticity confirmed of that intercepted
(15)conversation, and as long as we don't have the authenticity confirmed of
the cassette, we do not believe that it is possible and admissible to make
a new exhibit, that is, a videotape, on the basis of two pieces of
evidence that have not yet been confirmed, that is, the transcript of the
intercepted conversation and the cassette itself. It is true that on this
(20)cassette a voice can be heard, and quite distinct, and it is louder than
other voices.
I can also understand the Chamber and my learned colleague from
the Prosecution, since this cassette is in B/C/S, that they are not going
to understand the contents of the conversation but that they will have the
(25)transcript in front of them, that is, in case -- if only the audio
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. McCloskey, I think that there are certain new elements in the response of Mr. Petrusic which might justify something that you have brought up. Do you want to offer any further comments to what Mr. Petrusic has just said, or ... (25)
MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President, briefly. Earlier --
(5) MR. McCLOSKEY: No, Your Honour, they have not, but they did not ask last night either. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, yesterday -- JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] There is another question, I'm (10)sorry, that I have. Do you have the recording, that is, the audio recording, of all intercepted conversations that you have presented here? I believe that the answer is no, but I should like to hear you anyway.
MR. McCLOSKEY: The answer to that, Your Honour, is no. It's my
understanding there are a few audio recordings of a few of the intercepts,
(15)and I am trying to check, as we speak, on if any of them were used in
evidence. But the initial study into this showed that while there were a
few intercepts that we didn't find were relevant that were on tape, that
this particular conversation was the one conversation of our relevant
material that we had. Now, there may be some that there are additional
(20)tapes for. I'm trying to find that out as soon as possible.
Now, in response to Mr. Petrusic, I believe it was yesterday I
asked General Krstic if he ordered the killings of any Muslims between the
dates of July 11th and November 1st. I also asked him if he ever made an
order to take no prisoners between those dates. As you'll clearly see
(25)from the transcript on this intercept, General Krstic three times tells
JUDGE RODRIGUES: We will see. (5) MR. McCLOSKEY: -- as an impeachment -- JUDGE RODRIGUES: We'll see, Mr. McCloskey. MR. McCLOSKEY: What this is delivered for at this point is to impeach the statement of General Krstic saying he made no such orders. I offer this with the firm belief and the foundation that this material is (10)credible and reliable, and we will back it up and prove it, like we have each and every other important intercept in this case, and I would never offer anything like this unless I thought we could do that. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Let me consult with my colleagues. (15) JUDGE WALD: Just one second. I don't quite understand. You've had this for a while or you just got a hold of it yourself recently? MR. McCLOSKEY: No. We've had this for a while. In fact, Your Honour, you may recall that there was a -- one of the witnesses made reference to something and it was clear that there was something else out (20)there. JUDGE WALD: Okay. I don't remember that. But anyway, you've had -- but for strategic reasons or whatever, you have not laid the same kind of foundation yet for this document that you did for all those other intercepts; right? (25)
MR. McCLOSKEY: Not no, yet, Your Honour.
MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. Absolutely, Your Honour, if the General denies the conversation, and then of course that would be -- then that (5)would be appropriate. JUDGE WALD: So you're not seeking -- I'm just trying to get this straight now. You're not seeking to introduce this now as an exhibit -- MR. McCLOSKEY: No. JUDGE WALD: -- the same way that you introduced all those other (10)intercepts as exhibits? MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes. It's different. We will mark this as an exhibit. We will have it numbered as an exhibit. JUDGE WALD: What you're seeking to do now, if I understand you, is to use this as the basis for impeachment the way we use witness (15)statements and all kinds of things as impeachment, some of which -- most of which don't eventually get admitted but some of which may eventually. I'm just trying to put it into its perspective. Is that roughly ... MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Your Honour. That's precisely what we're doing, and as -- (20) JUDGE WALD: I understand what follows from that. And so then my last question would be, from what Mr. Petrusic said, is: He said he wouldn't object to the audio cassette being played. What's the problem with doing it that way? MR. McCLOSKEY: We can play the audio. (25)
JUDGE WALD: I'm just asking you what your problem is with what he
MR. McCLOSKEY: It's much less communicative to the trier of fact. JUDGE WALD: But he does have -- he does have some kind of -- you don't want to admit it, I'm sure, but he does have some kind of point (5)about building on, building on, building, if nothing has yet been actually admitted. MR. McCLOSKEY: I understand that, and -- JUDGE WALD: Which would you prefer? Just to cross-examine him on the basis of this as a potential impeachment tool or to play the audio? (10) MR. McCLOSKEY: Well -- JUDGE WALD: For the same or both? MR. McCLOSKEY: Well, at a minimum, I would like to play the audio as well, so he can hear it and he can evaluate it. JUDGE WALD: Subject to later on, if it turns out that way, (15)introducing it as an authenticated exhibit in the usual way? MR. McCLOSKEY: Absolutely, and with our full intention to do that. JUDGE WALD: Okay. MR. McCLOSKEY: With the witness who will be here that wrote in (20)the notebook. JUDGE WALD: Right. I just wanted to clarify that. JUDGE RIAD: Excuse me. Can we -- should we play it without expertise or with expertise? What is your response?
MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, as I mentioned to counsel last night,
(25)we have given the copy of this audio to a voice expert, and we have been
JUDGE WALD: And you don't have any problem if later on, if you try to put this into the official record, with the fact that the Defence clearly has every right to raise any objection that it feels -- MR. McCLOSKEY: Absolutely. (15) JUDGE WALD: -- it can? MR. McCLOSKEY: And that is one of the main reasons we met with them last night to give this to them. I offered them a cassette tape in case they needed it to take with them and they had one. So that wasn't a problem. (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Let me consult with my colleagues. But I see that we're getting close to our usual time for a break. Perhaps we should have a break at this point. Fifteen-minute break. --- Recess taken at 2.05 p.m. (25)
--- On resuming at 2.20 p.m.
(10) THE REGISTRAR: Yes, Mr. President. It's 789. MR. McCLOSKEY: I'm sorry, Mr. President. Did you want the audio played --
THE INTERPRETER: Microphone, please. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. McCloskey. MR. McCLOSKEY: I just wanted to clarify whether you wanted us to play the audiotape or the videotape with the audio. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Maybe I was not clear enough. We are going to listen to the audiotape. I apologise. (20)
MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. And I believe they are
now set up to play that, though it is very poor quality and I don't think
the interpreters are going to be able to do it, but I guess we'll just
play it and see what happens. (25)
THE INTERPRETER:
[Voiceover]:
(Y.:) Yes. (O.:) Where is Zepa? (Y.:) Behind us. (5) (O.:) Hey, listen. Where are you driving Yugoslavia, man? (Y.:) Well, fuck it. That's the agreement. (Y.:) Well ... (O.:) Hello? Hello? (X.:) Just a moment. (10) (O.:) Hey, operator, what's happening, did I lose the line? (K.:) Hello? (O.:) Yes. Yes. (K.:) Is that you, Obrenovic? (O.:) Yes. (15) (K.:) Krstic here. (O.:) How are you General, sir? (K.:) I'm great, and you? (O.:) Thanks to you I am too. (K.:) Way to go, Chief. And how's you're health? (20) (O.:) It's fine, thank God, it's fine. (K.:) Are you working down there? (O.:) Of course we're working. (K.:) Good.
(O.:) We've managed to catch a few more, either by gunpoint or in
(25)mines.
(O.:) Everything, everything is going according to plan. Yes. (K.:) Single one must be left alive. (O.:) Everything is going according to plan. Everything. (5) (K.:) Way to go, Chief. The Turks are probably listening to us. Let them listen, the motherfuckers. (O.:) Yeah, let them. (K.:) Right. Where is your boss? (O.:) He went up towards you. (10) (K.:) When, today? (O.:) Yes. (K.:) This morning? (O.:) Yes. (K.:) Good. Go on we'll be in touch. (15) (O.:) Can I talk to Jevdjevic for a moment? (K.:) Jevdjevic? (O.:) Yes. (K.:) All right. (J.:) Hello. Yes? (20) (O.:) Listen. Which road should I use to send a truck in your direction to pick up some cattle? (J.:) And where is that? (O.:) Well, I don't know. My boss told me to give you a call because you know where most of them are. (25)
(J.:) Well, the others have already grabbed everything.
(J.:) No, not really. Even worse, now their code names are Cowboy 1 and Cowboy 2. (O.:) Okay. Where are they? Someone told me somewhere near Milici, (5)right? (J.:) In the place where Legenda often carried out searches, and then further up. (O.:) So I should go up to Milici? (J.:) Yes, to Podravanje and Stublic. (10) (O.:) Uh-huh, to Stublic. (J.:) Yes. You will find them at Stublic. (O.:) Okay. (J.:) You know the frequency and there are soldiers there and lots of sets so you can call. (15) (O.:) Good. (J.:) That's it. (O.:) Good. (J.:) How are you? (O.:) Well, it's okay. (20) (J.:) So long, let's get together sometime. (O.:) Okay. Take care. (J.:) Bye."
JUDGE WALD: Could I make a request? Could I just hear the first,
say, one minute of that without the translator so I could just hear the
(25)voices? With her overtaking, you can't make out anything. Just maybe the
MR. McCLOSKEY: Absolutely. And one clarification, the last part of this where there is talk about cattle and cowboys, it's the submission (5)of the Prosecution that they are, in fact, talking about cattle and cowboys, and it's really not part of --
JUDGE WALD: Yes. I just want to hear the voices without the
overlay just for 30 seconds. (10) JUDGE WALD: That's fine. Thank you. JUDGE RIAD: Mr. McCloskey, did you have any special reason to play it with the video? MR. McCLOSKEY: Just merely to show that -- to give an indication of when the B/C/S language is being spoken so that you could get the (15)impression of the emphasis on the words, sort of like following the bouncing ball in a song. Just so the trier of fact can hear the audio and then see the words. However, it's not necessary, I think, especially with the last playing. We got a very good indication of what this exhibit is. JUDGE RIAD: Thank you. . (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey, with your questions. MR. McCLOSKEY: General Krstic, did you, on August 2nd, 1995, tell Major Obrenovic to kill the people he captured that day?
• A.: No, Mr. McCloskey. This is 100 per cent montage. On that day I
(25)didn't talk to Obrenovic at all. Second, I did not recognise the other
(5) • Q.: On July 19th, shortly before this interview -- excuse me -- shortly before this conversation, in an area near Nezuk, we've heard evidence from a survivor of the murder of captured Muslim men. Are you saying this kind of thing did not happen? Are you contesting the July 19th evidence of the slaughter of the captured Muslim men? (10) • A.: I don't know what exhibit that refers to. • Q.: You don't recall the survivor that testified being captured in the Nezuk area by people with the Krajina Corps patches on their arms and what happened to those ten people or so that were captured? • A.: I do remember, but I understood that it was during battle, combat. (15) • Q.: You don't recall the testimony where the 15-year-old boy was taken aside and shot down in cold blood? You thought that was combat? • A.: I don't remember that particular moment. I would like to see the exhibit, to be shown the exhibit. MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 740/A, which is an (20)August 1st combat report from the Zvornik Infantry Brigade.
• Q.: General, if you could take a moment to familiarise yourself with
that, and if we could zero in on paragraph 3. And in paragraph 3 of the
first section:
"In the early hours of the morning, a small group of enemy
(25)soldiers stumbled into the M/P, in front of the 7th Infantry Battalion's
• A.: Minefield. (5) • Q.: And the previous conversation, Major Obrenovic says that "We've managed to catch a few more," and you say, "Uh-huh," and Obrenovic says, "Either on gunpoints or on mines." • A.: I've already stated my opinion with regard to the conversation that we have just heard. It was 100 per cent rigged. (10) • Q.: You say that you were on August 2nd back working in the Drina Corps command post? • A.: Yes. • Q.: To your knowledge, were there Muslim stragglers from Srebrenica still running around in the woods in the Zvornik area of responsibility? (15) • A.: Possibly there were in the area of responsibility of the Zvornik, Birac, and Vlasenica Brigade. • Q.: General, possibly they were, or were there? • A.: It is possible that there were some.
• Q.: Noting in paragraph 2 of this document:
(20)"Main tasks of our units: A company from the 8th Infantry
Battalion remains in the Glodansko Brdo area and is working on the
organisation of ambush operations. So far they have not observed enemy
movements from the direction of Srebrenica."
So ambush operations on August 1st are still going on for
(25)Srebrenica stragglers, under this document; is that correct?
• Q.: It also notes that the Chief of Brigade inspected the units of the "R" Battalion in the area. The chief of the brigade is who? (5) • A.: It refers quite certainly to Colonel Pandurevic. MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 741/A. And I merely would like you to note in paragraph 2 that the Chief of Staff inspection of the "R" Battalion and the Student Company is part of the main tasks. So under this document, on August 2nd Dragan Obrenovic would still be (10)active in the Zvornik Brigade area of responsibility? • A.: Yes. According to this report, he would be there. • Q.: And the situation in the territory on August 2nd, there's a note that: "In the Glodi-Siroki Put area, an enemy group consisting of five (15)soldiers moving in the Kamenica-Glodi direction was broken up. As the group smashed, three of the enemy soldiers were killed but two managed to flee. The combing of the area is continuing." So based on the information in paragraph 3, there are still Muslim stragglers in the Zvornik Brigade area that are coming in contact with (20)Zvornik Brigade troops? • A.: From the report, that is evident. MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 325A, and if --
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Just one moment, Mr. McCloskey.
General Krstic, the 2nd of August, on that date, 1995, did you
(25)receive and read this report on that date?
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you. I apologise, (5)Mr. McCloskey, for the interruption. Please continue. MR. McCLOSKEY: Now, the next exhibit is under seal, so if we could briefly go into private session. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. Let us move into private session now. How long do you need, Mr. McCloskey? Roughly speaking. (10) MR. McCLOSKEY: I hope no more than a few minutes, but there is some information here that could lead us longer.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Okay. Very well.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Please proceed, Mr. McCloskey. (10) MR. McCLOSKEY: • Q.: Do you recall the phones going down in the Vlasenica area on August 2nd when you were there? • A.: I don't remember that at all. Telephones were down frequently. MR. McCLOSKEY: Now, if we could go through a series of FBIS (15)reports, Exhibit 113/3 is the first one. General, do you recall hearing in the media any reports of suspicious activity or criminal activity happening at Srebrenica after 14 July 1995? • A.: I heard about that over the radio and on television, (20)Bosnia-Herzegovina radio and television. • Q.: When did you first start hearing about those reports? • A.: I don't remember when that was. • Q.: What reports did you hear?
• A.: I don't remember, but they spoke about the disappearance of a
(25)large number of people from Srebrenica.
• A.: I haven't got that exhibit in Serbian in front of me. • Q.: That's why I read it. Does that refresh your recollection at (5)all? 17 -- excuse me. 14 July statements from the UN. • A.: I was in the Zepa area and I had no means by which to hear information of that kind. • Q.: When you got back did you hear anything? • A.: I don't remember whether I did or did not. (10) • Q.: General Krstic, these are major allegations of misconduct directed towards the Drina, which would, in fact, be the Drina Corps, since it was a partial operation in your area. You have no recollection of hearing these international allegations? • A.: Mr. McCloskey, I cannot say that I heard about it if I did not (15)hear about it. There must be the necessary conditions for me to be able to hear this. Even if I heard it, I don't remember hearing it. I don't know when it was, who issued this announcement, or anything of that kind. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] General Krstic, the question was to know whether after your return from Zepa you happened to learn (20)something with respect to that event which you before were not able to hear. So we're talking about after your return from Zepa. • A.: Mr. President, I don't remember at all having heard that report or announcement. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Please continue, Mr. McCloskey. (25)
MR. McCLOSKEY: Now if we could have Exhibit 114/1. And since
THE INTERPRETER: The interpreters request that Mr. McCloskey read the report slowly, please. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Before continuing, Mr. McCloskey, are you aware of the fact that you should be finished by (10)3.00? Okay? MR. McCLOSKEY: I wish I could finish by 3.00 more than anything, Mr. President, and I'm sorry, but there has been much discussion not anticipated for, though I guess we can always anticipate discussion. JUDGE RODRIGUES: We'll take this into consideration, (15)Mr. McCloskey. [Int.] I merely wish to remind you. MR. McCLOSKEY: Thank you, Mr. President. The title of this is "Zametica Denies Maltreatment of Srebrenica Muslims," and it comes from -- particularly from Banja Luka Srpska Television in Serbo-Croatian, on 17 July at 1830 hours GMT, and says: (20)"Jovan Zametica, advisor to Radovan Karadzic, the president of the Serb Republic, pointed out the following in today's press release: In the past several days, the international --" THE INTERPRETER: Please slow down, Mr. McCloskey.
MR. McCLOSKEY: "-- media, aided by the Muslim authorities, have
(25)been using violent propaganda, unrealistically reporting on the events
• A.: I am seeing this for the first time here, and hearing it from what you have read.
MR. McCLOSKEY: If we could go to Exhibit 113/5. This is a FBIS
report from 24 July 1995, entitled "Mazowiecki on Serb Human Rights
(25)Abuses," and it talks about Tadeusz Mazowiecki, special UN Human Rights
• Q.: So you heard nothing about this either? (5) • A.: I am hearing it for the first time from you here and now. MR. McCLOSKEY: And the last exhibit, which we do not have to put on the ELMO, is 113/6, dated July 27 [Realtime transcript read in error July 7], 1995, and entitled "Mazowiecki Resigns as Envoy to the Former Yugoslavia," where Mr. Mazowiecki, in a letter to the UN, resigned because (10)he could no longer take part in the fictional defence of human rights in the former Yugoslavia. • Q.: Did you hear about the resignation of envoy Mazowiecki? • A.: No, I did not hear of it. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I apologise for interrupting, (15)Mr. McCloskey, but I think the date of this document was the 27th. On the transcript I think I see 7. Do we need to clarify that point? MR. McCLOSKEY: Yes, Mr. President. It should be 27 July 1995. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Please proceed. MR. McCLOSKEY: Your Honour, I note it's 3.00 p.m. I have a few (20)more documents, none that should be real lengthy. I hope we can finish up within one hour tomorrow morning.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well. I was just about to
ask you how much more time you needed, and I wanted to speak seriously.
We have always spoken seriously, but now let's speak more seriously.
(25)You need one hour, you say, one hour to complete everything; is
MR. McCLOSKEY: I would plead Mr. Harmon's defence. Lawyers are not reliable on this time frame. Perhaps it's because there are so many (5)other lawyers in the courtroom. I would sincerely try for an hour, but it might take two. We have the article regarding the ceremony of the Drina Wolves and a very short video regarding that ceremony, and we have the full translated article now and a few other documents. But I would certainly hope that two hours would take -- would do it. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I am asking you the question now, because in a moment you'll be saying four hours. If I give you the opportunity, you double. So you say two hours, that that is sufficient; is that right, Mr. McCloskey? It is just for the purpose of organising our work. (15)So let us say two hours. I gave you one hour. You asked for two. Now I give you another opportunity. Two hours to complete your business, Mr. McCloskey. You have this afternoon to organise your material and all your questions and then tomorrow we shall be rounding off within the space of two hours, Mr. McCloskey. Is that agreeable to you? (20) MR. McCLOSKEY: Absolutely, Mr. President.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] I should like to recognise at
this point that the Judges have taken up some of your time, and that is
why we all -- we're always ready to show understanding for your
situation. But I should like to say that you did ask for something and
(25)that you had the right to ask for it, and the Judges did take up some of
MR. PETRUSIC:
[Int.] Mr. President, a few days ago, in
(20)answer to your question how long the redirect would last after the
cross-examination, I told you that this would take approximately one day.
However, I should like now to inform the Trial Chamber that in the
meantime, the Defence has, shall I say, reorganised itself, and we shall
need a much shorter space of time; that is to say, we will be taking up an
(25)hour and a half to two hours. And I draw your attention to that to help
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. Petrusic. Mr. Harmon, does that organisation seem to you to be convenient? Say "yes," please, so we don't have to lose any time. (5) MR. HARMON: Yes, Your Honour. However, I was informed by the Defence that they had one witness who they would like to have the three Judges here, not two Judges, and it was my understanding that that witness would commence on Tuesday. So for purposes of our planning, in light of your direction now, (10)it appears that that witness may start before and that causes some lack of clarity for our planning purposes. So if we could clarify that one point, we would be appreciative.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes. Thank you very much. So
tomorrow we're going to wind up the cross-examination of General Krstic by
(15)the Prosecutor, and we're going to start off with the two witnesses, two
witnesses who will be available, and they will be heard by my colleagues.
I myself will be absent on Friday and Monday, but my colleagues will be
sitting and continuing the proceedings, and we agreed upon that, I think.
The witness that the Defence wishes to be heard before a full
(20)Trial Chamber can be heard on Tuesday, and after that, we are going to
have the redirect by the Defence and the Judges' questions. The objective
is to allow the witnesses to go home, those of them who have been waiting
here for a long time. I think we agreed on that point, that all parties
agreed. So I don't want to repeat what has already been said, but I thank
(25)Mr. Harmon for his observations. And there we have it. I think that the
--- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 3.10 p.m., (5)to be reconvened on Thursday, the 2nd day of November, 2000 at 9.20 a.m. |
