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(1)Wednesday, 22 March 2000 [Open session]
--- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Can the interpreters hear me? I'm glad to see that they're there. Good morning to the counsel for the Prosecution, to counsel for the Defence; good morning, General Krstic. (10)For the record, we're still hearing the case against General Krstic, and we will continue with the testimony that we started yesterday. So without much further ado, I will give the floor to Mr. Cayley.
MR. CAYLEY: Good morning, Mr. President,
(15)Your Honours. We are coming towards the end of
Mr. Mandzic's testimony. So with your permission, if
the witness could be brought back into the courtroom,
I'd be grateful. (20)
WITNESS: NESIB MANDZIC
[Resumed] JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, Mr. Mandzic. Did you hear me?
THE WITNESS: Yes, I can. Good morning, Your
(25)Honour.
THE WITNESS: I think it is. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. Let (5)me just remind you, Mr. Mandzic, that you are still testifying under an oath. You will continue answering questions that Mr. Cayley is going to put to you, and thank you for coming back this morning. MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President. (10) • EXAMINED by Mr. Cayley: [contd] • Q.: Good morning, Mr. Mandzic. • A.: Good morning, Mr. Cayley. • Q.: We left off with your testimony last night on the night of the 11th of July, 1995, when you returned (15)from Bratunac to the UN Compound in Potocari, and I'd now like to move ahead in time to the 12th of July of 1995, in the morning. You're inside the UN Compound. Can you describe to the Judges the scene that you saw in and (20)around the compound at Potocari and inside the compound on the morning of the 12th of July, 1995?
• A.: Yes, I can do that. At the base of the Dutch
Battalion in Potocari, approximately 5.000 refugees had
found temporary shelter. Most of them were elderly
(25)people, weak people. There were dozens of wounded as
(10) • Q.: How hot was it that day, Mr. Mandzic? • A.: The temperature was above 30 degrees Celsius. It was exhausting due to the temperature as well, let alone the fear. There was a shortage of water, of food. There were no toilet facilities. (15) • Q.: The children and the babies, what was their state at this time?
• A.: Well, yes, the children were in a very
difficult situation. As I have already stated, there
was no food, so their mothers couldn't feed them.
(20)Their mothers were exhausted as well. So were the
children. They were crying all the time, screaming.
They had nothing to change them or to wash them.
It was very sad to watch all this. When I
try to think about it all, when I try to go back and
(25)reflect on it, I really see that it was a terrible
• Q.: At 10.00 that morning, Colonel Karremans called you again. Can you tell the Judges why he called you and what you did after your conversation (5)with him? • A.: Let me go back to the previous night, that is, the night between the 11th and the 12th of July, and the first meeting in Bratunac with the representatives of the military authorities of (10)Republika Srpska. General Mladic made an ultimatum. He demanded from the Dutch Battalion and from us that we should be back to Bratunac on the following day at 10.00 together with a Bosniak delegation that would be (15)representing the refugees. So according to that, we organised ourselves. On the 12th of July, at 10.00 a.m., we were again in Bratunac together with the representatives of the Dutch Battalion. (20) • Q.: Whereabouts in Bratunac did you go on that morning? • A.: The meeting was held at the same place, in the Fontana Hotel in Bratunac, like the first meeting, the one that had taken place on the night before. (25)
• Q.: You referred to a Bosniak delegation. Apart
• A.: Members of the Bosniak delegation were, well, myself, and then Mr. Ibro Nuhanovic, who did not survive the Srebrenica Calvary. In the afternoon, on (5)the 13th of July, he was separated from his family by the forces of the VRS, and I haven't heard of him since that day. The third member of the Bosniak delegation was Mrs. Camila Omanovic. (10) • Q.: If you can recall, who were the Dutch officers who accompanied you to that meeting? • A.: Yes, I remember. It was the Commander of the Dutch Battalion. At that time he was a Lieutenant Colonel, Colonel Karremans. Then there was a Major (15)from the Dutch Battalion, Major Boering. As far as I can remember, the third officer of the Dutch Battalion, who was a Sergeant, whom I remember very well but I just cannot remember his name at the moment, but I am able to recognise him, and I recognised him yesterday (20)on the photograph that you showed me. Now, I have shown you video extracts of that meeting, which I'm not going to show in the courtroom for your evidence, but if you could briefly tell the Judges what you recall of that meeting. (25)
• A.: You're referring to the second meeting, the
• Q.: That's right, Mr. Mandzic. • A.: This meeting resembled more or less the previous one, the one that had taken place the night (5)before, with one exception. During that meeting, while we were discussing, somebody approached the group, the meeting, from the side and addressed General Mladin, saying that the Bosniaks were arriving in the football stadium in Bratunac. So when we heard that, we were (10)very upset. But then I glanced at my watch and I realised that within half an hour it was physically impossible for thousands of refugees to reach Bratunac from Potocari. Therefore it was a kind of provocation, whose objective was to scare the representatives of the (15)Bosniak delegation, to disarm them, if one can put it that way, when it comes to their requests and their demands. They simply wanted to crush us, both physically and morally, so that we would be completely useless. (20)Let me mention one other fact which can support this. One member of our negotiating group, our negotiating team, sustained a very severe psychological shock that day, a nervous breakdown.
• Q.: Do you recall anything else that was
(25)discussed at that meeting, Mr. Mandzic?
• Q.: Do you recall who was present at that (5)meeting? • A.: In addition to the officers from the command of the VRS, two civilian representatives of the Bratunac municipality attended the meeting, as far as I can remember. One of them was Miroslav Deronjic, who (10)at the time was the president of the Serb Democratic Party for the Bratunac municipality. The other one was Milisav, I believe his name is, Milisav Simic, who was the president of the Bratunac Municipal Assembly at that time. (15) • Q.: Could you name, if you can, the individuals from the VRS Command that were present at that meeting on the morning of the 12th of July? • A.: Yes, I can do that. I remember very well that next to General Mladic sat General Krstic, who is (20)here today, together with some other officers, whose faces I can remember very well, but I'm not quite sure as to their names. • Q.: Do you recall whether Mr. Miroslav Deronjic said anything at the meeting? (25)
• A.: I cannot recall, but I do remember, on the
• Q.: Could you tell the Court what Simic said at that meeting? • A.: Yes. Simic spoke to General Mladic at one (5)point and he told him that in respect of certain Bosniaks, they needed to have some informative talks. He suspected that they had been members of the armed forces. • Q.: Do you recall what time that meeting (10)finished? • A.: Yes. It finished between -- sometime between 11.00 and 11.30. • Q.: After the meeting, what did you do?
• A.: After the meeting we went back, together with
(15)the officers of the Dutch Battalion. We went back to
their camp. The situation was very difficult. We were
trying to figure out what to do next, because it was
obvious that no firm guarantees had been given that
there would be a positive solution for all those
(20)refugees. Mr. Ibro Nuhanovic, Mrs. Omanovic, Camila,
and myself, we were very concerned and we were thinking
of putting down the names of the refugees on paper, but
at that time it was a very difficult thing to do. Do
you want me to say perhaps that during the first
(25)meeting, General Mladic had promised that everybody,
• Q.: You mentioned General Mladic. Did he appear that day in Potocari? (10) • A.: Yes, he did appear in Potocari on that day, between 12.00 and 1.00. • Q.: At that time, at 12.00 or 1.00, had the deportation started by that time, the movement of the population to Potocari? (15) • A.: If I remember it correctly, General Mladic came to Potocari. He simply entered this mass of refugees sometime between noon and 1.00 p.m. And I think that the deportation began after 1.00 on that day, on the 12th of July, that is, after General Mladic (20)had left Potocari. • Q.: So can you give an approximate time when the movement of the population started? • A.: After 1.00 p.m. on the 12th of July.
• Q.: Can you describe to the Judges what you saw
(25)taking place in respect of that movement?
• Q.: Let's move ahead to the early evening hours of the 12th of July. I think the Dutch Commander, (15)Colonel Karremans, came to speak to you. Can you tell the Judges what happened after he spoke to you?
• A.: In the afternoon hours on that day between
5.00 and 6.00 p.m., to be precise, Major Franken from
the Dutch Battalion spoke to me and Mr. Nuhanovic. He
(20)told us that we had to get out of the Dutch Battalion
camp in Potocari because some officers of the VRS were
expecting us outside the camp. So this is how me and
late Mr. Nuhanovic went towards the gate of the camp.
While we were moving towards the gate, which
(25)was open at that time, a Serb soldier of a heavy build
• Q.: After Mladic had addressed the crowd and you (20)had been outside the compound, did you return inside the UN Dutch compound? • A.: Yes, I did, and late Ibro Nuhanovic went back to the camp of the Dutch soldiers, and spent again the night in the camp. (25)
• Q.: Did you hear anything that night?
MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Exhibit 5/2, and also if you have available 5/6. • Q.: Mr. Mandzic, you stated to the Judges that you were inside the compound that night, in a building (20)that had been reinforced against gunfire by concrete slabs. Could you indicate on this photograph where you stayed that night, on the 12th of July?
• A.: On the 12th of July I was in the Dutch base
or, rather, the building that was -- that the
(25)officers -- where the officers were quartered, and
MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness is pointing to the building which is in the uppermost left-hand corner of the yellow square, the (5)square which delineates the UN base. If the witness could now be shown Exhibit 5/6. • Q.: Mr. Mandzic, do you recognise this building? • A.: I do, yes. This is an industrial plant, the (10)11 of March Factory, which was one of the Energoinvest units in this building, and in front of it by its fence posts is the road, Bratunac-Potocari-Srebrenica. On the 11th, 12th, 13th of July, there were tens of thousands of people forcibly amassed in that area. (15)I can also say that in this building or, rather, in this hall, in this plant, that I was there on the 11th of July, and I was there until 9.00, until I was called to go to the Commander of the Dutch Battalion. (20)
• Q.: Thank you, Mr. Mandzic. We've finished with
those exhibits. Let's move ahead in time, Mr. Mandzic,
to the 13th of July, and if you can tell the Judges
rumours you were beginning to hear on that morning in
respect of the men, of the Bosniak men who were present
(25)in and around Potocari.
• Q.: Please carry on, Mr. Mandzic, if you wish. (5)If you have more to say to the Judges, I don't want to interrupt you.
• A.: Right. Then I asked Major Franken, "Well,
what next? Where's the way out of this? Because they
will separate all men. Will any of the men survive?
(10)Shall we have any proof that people ever lived in this
area, that there were some people there?" And Major
Franken said, "Yes, let's do something. Let's try to
make a list, at least in the camp, if we cannot do it
outside the camp."
(15)So I began to do that straight away. I
entered those destroyed structures, those plants of the
factory in the camp, and with some other men I started
compiling the list mostly of the male population
between the ages of 17, 18 to 70 onward.
(20)I must also say that I had some trouble as I
was compiling that list, first of all because some of
the people from my -- from the same place were afraid
of seeing their names on that list. I remember some
said, "Right. We trust you, we know you, but what if
(25)our name is on this list and the army of the Republika
• Q.: Mr. Mandzic, the evacuation outside the UN compound, the movement of this population, what time did it finish on the 13th of July?
• A.: In late afternoon, as far as I can remember,
(25)sometime around 1900.
• A.: Yes, I could. I was about 200 meters away (5)from them. And because I moved around the camp, so sometimes I came as close as 50 meters and I could see inscriptions on those buses, so that it was -- the deportation had been planned, and I concluded it because I saw such a large number of buses and trucks (10)which had arrived from outside, by and large from towns such as Bijeljina, Banja Luka, Bratunac, and so on. I know -- I remember, that is, the inscriptions on these buses: Sembreija Transport from Bijeljina. That was a transporting company, a bussing company from before the (15)war. Drina Trans, another bussing company from Zvornik which is still in operation. A bussing company from Banja Luka, I believe, called Auto Transport, and so on and so forth. • Q.: Did you manage to observe the state of the (20)civilian population that were on those buses?
• A.: Yes, yes. I could see from a distance of
some 50 to 100 meters those were mothers, wives,
sisters, crying, screaming, tearing their hair off,
because they had boarded the buses and could leave, yet
(25)their next of kin -- their children, their fathers,
• Q.: You mentioned earlier that there were people (10)that had been wounded that were inside the compound in Potocari. What happened to those people on the 13th of July? • A.: Yes. A group of wounded was evacuated that day. But another group of people, who I believe had (15)sustained more severe injuries, who were awaiting operations, they could not be transported and they stayed behind in Potocari. • Q.: On that day you mentioned earlier in your testimony that there were a large number of VRS (20)personnel in and around the compound. Do you recall if any VRS soldiers or officers came into the compound at Potocari?
• A.: Yes, I do remember. As I said -- as I have
said, and I shall repeat it, it was already in the
(25)early morning hours of the 12th of July. The army of
MR. CAYLEY: Could the witness be shown (5)Exhibit 43, please. • Q.: So it would be correct to say that Mr. Nikolic was actively involved in deciding which of the wounded could be moved from the UN compound and which of the wounded would remain in the UN compound? (10) • A.: Yes, yes, quite so. He was determining which group of the wounded would be transported for further medical treatment and which ones of the wounded would stay behind in Potocari. Yes, this is that officer of the army of (15)Republika Srpska who came to the camp of Dutch soldiers on the 13th of July, and on the 11th and the 12th of July attended, was present at the meeting in Bratunac. MR. CAYLEY: For the purposes of the record, the witness is referring to a photograph of an (20)individual wearing glasses in Exhibit 43. • Q.: If you know, Mr. Mandzic, what was the position of Mr. Nikolic in the VRS? Do you know?
• A.: Some people introduced him as a colonel, but
I'm not sure that that was indeed so. As a colonel of
(25)a unit whose operational zone was Bratunac.
• A.: Yes. Rather, they called him Colonel and that his zone of operations was the municipality of (5)Bratunac. • Q.: Now, the movement of the population, do you recall what time the movement of the population that was still in the UN compound finished on the 13th of July? (10) • A.: Yes. Sometime around 1900 on the 13th of July, the Dutch soldiers' camp, where there were still some 5.000 people, but it was practically empty, the army of Republika Srpska ordered all the expellees, all the expelled, to come out of the camp so after 1900 (15)there was only a small group of severely wounded, and a group of 27 Bosniaks who had been working for UNPROFOR or MSF as their local staff were left in the camp. • Q.: Now, since these were individuals that had been in the compound rather than outside the compound, (20)were you able to observe more closely what was actually happening with these individuals that were being expelled? • A.: Yes.
• Q.: Can you tell the Judges what you saw taking
(25)place?
(15) • Q.: Now, you say that you saw men being deported, and by the manner of your evidence, are you saying that the men were being separated?
• A.: Yes. I watched from a distance of some 50 to
100 metres away how only women with small children
(20)boarded the buses, with children up -- from infants
from up to 12, 13 years of age. I saw those women
screaming, moaning, crying, tearing their hair off.
On that day, the 13th of July, on the 12th of
July, the same scene repeated over and over again.
(25)Everybody reacted in the same way. And I could see
• Q.: Who was carrying out the separation of the (5)men from their families? • A.: Well, soldiers of the VRS. • Q.: Now, speaking of these VRS soldiers, did you observe the uniforms and the insignia of these soldiers? (10) • A.: Yes, I did. On the first day, on the 11th of July, and on the following day, on the 12th of July, as I was coming back from Bratunac on my way to Potocari, I could observe hundreds of soldiers standing next to the road, wearing uniforms, brand-new uniforms, I might (15)say. Some of them were wearing the insignia of the VRS. Some didn't have any insignia at all. But they did have new military clothing. I could also hear various dialects, very just accents which did not resemble the dialect, the (20)Ijekavski dialect, which is used by Bosnian Serbs in the region of Podrinje in Eastern Bosnia.
• Q.: Let's now move ahead in time. The compound
is now empty. All of the refugees have gone. You're
remaining with members of the Dutch Battalion.
(25)On the 17th of July, you signed a declaration
MR. CAYLEY: If the witness can now be shown Exhibit 47, which is the last new exhibit for this witness. There are four exhibits. There's 47A; 47B; (5)47C, which is the French translation; and 47D, which is the B/C/S translation. Mr. President, if I can explain in respect of this exhibit. There are, in fact, two English translations. The reason for that is that one of them, (10)which I'll show on the ELMO, was a field translation that was done at the time, on the 17th of the July, in order to facilitate the signature of the representative of the Dutch Battalion. There are some inaccuracies in that translation. We have the original version there (15)B/C/S, in the Bosnian language, and we have had that translated into English. So there is now an official English translation. But in order that the Court, as it were, sees all of the documents, there are, as I said, two English translations. (20) • Q.: Now, Mr. Mandzic, first of all -- MR. CAYLEY: Before I ask Mr. Mandzic any questions, can you put 47B on the ELMO? If you could move it up slightly.
• Q.: Now, Mr. Mandzic, is this the English version
(25)of this declaration that you signed on the 17th of
• A.: Yes, it is. MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could now -- if you could now put on the ELMO, I think it's 47D, which (5)is the version in the witness's language. If you could turn the page. • Q.: This, Mr. Mandzic, is the version that you signed in your own language, and indeed Major Franken and a representative of the Bosnian Serb civilian (10)authorities; is that correct? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Thank you. MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be given the version in his own language. That's fine. (15)The French and English translations, Your Honours, are the ones I would like you to follow, the French being 47C and the official English being 47A.
• Q.: Now, Mr. Mandzic, a few questions about this
document. In the second paragraph, the document states
(20)that: "On 12 July 1995, in the Fontana Hotel in
Bratunac, at our request negotiations were conducted
between the representatives of our civilian authorities
and the representatives of the Republika Srpska
civilian authorities and the army regarding the
(25)evacuation of our civilian population from the
• A.: No, it is not accurate. You will remember (5)that I said yesterday, and you could see it clearly on the video, that nobody from the Bosniak side ever requested negotiations, neither on the 11th, nor on the 12th of July. It was done upon the insistence of the VRS, and it was UNPROFOR who organised the first (10)meeting in Bratunac on the 11th of July. Again, I must say these negotiations were not conducted at the request of the Bosniak side. We never requested these negotiations to take place. • Q.: If we could move down through this document. (15)We get to a section which says: "At the end of the negotiations between the two sides, the following was agreed," and the first paragraph states: "Our civilian population could stay in the enclave or move out, depending on the wish of each individual." (20)Now, Mr. Mandzic, is this an accurate reflection of what actually happened on the 12th and 13th of July?
• A.: No, it is not really. Not a single word from
this paragraph reflects the events that were taking
(25)place on the 12th and the 13th of July and the
(15) • Q.: Now, in the third paragraph following that paragraph it states: "It was arranged that the evacuation would be carried out by the army and police of Republika Srpska and that UNPROFOR would supervise and provide an escort for the evacuation." (20)Is that statement an accurate reflection of what actually happened on the ground on the 12th and 13th of July?
• A.: This paragraph is not an accurate reflection
of the events and the facts that took place in Potocari
(25)and on the way from Potocari to Kladanj either.
• Q.: So you're stating that in reality, there were (15)very few convoys that were actually properly escorted by UNPROFOR?
• A.: Only on the first day, on the 12th of July.
On that day, the officers of the Dutch Battalion did
send soldiers and vehicles to escort some of the buses
(20)carrying Bosniaks who were actually being deported by
the VRS to the area of Kladanj. However, on the way
from Potocari to Kladanj, according to Major Franken,
his soldiers ran into obstacles that had been put up by
soldiers of the VRS. They harassed them. They
(25)requisitioned their vehicles, vehicles belonging to the
• Q.: Now, the very last paragraph, and this may be something that you can't comment upon because you were not actually with any of the convoys, but the last paragraph states: "No incidents were provoked by any (10)side during the evacuation, and the Serbian side observed all the regulations of the Geneva Conventions and the International Law of War." Then there is added, I think, a sentence by Major Franken: "As far as the convoys escorted by the (15)UN forces were concerned." What do you say about that, Mr. Mandzic?
• A.: Yes. As I already told Your Honours, the
Serbian representatives, Deronjic, who represented the
civilian government, appeared with this ready-made
(20)statement, and he made an ultimatum requesting that
this statement be signed. However, he was very well
aware of the situation. He knew that between the
13th and the 17th of July in Bratunac, a group of about
several dozen wounded, whom I said had been evacuated
(25)on the 13th of July, had been retained. He also knew
MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, if you wish, we could take a break now. I have about five minutes of (10)my examination-in-chief remaining. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, I think it's a very good moment. I think our witness is already a bit tired, the interpreters, myself as well. We will have a 20-minute break and we shall resume (15)after that. --- Recess taken at 10.53 a.m. --- On resuming at 11.20 a.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well, Mr. Cayley. We now had a break and I believe we've all (20)recovered, or perhaps with a cup of coffee or something like that, and I think that we can now assume. So you have the floor. MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President.
• Q.: Mr. Mandzic, from the 17th of July until the
(25)21st of July, where did you find yourself?
• Q.: Now, you've just stated that the people who remained within the compound were members of the Dutch Battalion, various others, and some Bosniaks. Earlier you had stated that the man who accompanied you to the (20)meeting on the 12th of July in the morning was Ibro Nuhanovic. You also stated in your evidence that Ibro subsequently disappeared. Can you tell the Court what you know happened to Ibro Nuhanovic and his family?
• A.: Yes. Ibro Nuhanovic, before the war, he was
(25)the manager of a timber processing company in the area
MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I have no further questions of the witness, so I can now offer him for cross-examination. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Mr. Cayley. Now, Mr. Mandzic, you will answer the questions which counsel for the Defence, I believe Mr. Petrusic, or perhaps Mr. Visnjic -- no, (20)Mr. Petrusic will have to ask of you. • CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Petrusic:
• Q.: Good morning, Your Honours. Good morning,
Mr. Mandzic. I'm sorry, I did not get your surname
right. Excuse me.
(25)My first question is whether you can tell us,
• A.: Yes, I can tell you that. I am glad that you (5)asked me that question. Before the war, Bosnia-Herzegovina was a multi-ethnic community with three constituent peoples, Bosniaks, Serbs, and Croats, and other citizens. In such a multi-ethnic society life was indeed harmonious. There was mutual respect (10)for religions or traditions of other peoples. There were no, and I repeat it again, there were no ethnic or religious obstacles, barriers between people. People socialised, people helped one another, people worked together. And Srebrenica was another such example of (15)good multi-ethnic coexistence in the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina and the territory of the formal Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
• Q.: In 1991, the first multi-party elections took
place in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and a short time before
(20)that political parties had been set up and various
political organisations. Until then, until the
elections or after the elections, excuse me, after the
elections, political authorities were to be constituted
in the municipality of Srebrenica. You were in
(25)Srebrenica, as far as I could understand, when you gave
(5) • A.: Thank you. I've understood your question. The first multi-party elections in Bosnia-Herzegovina, including the local ones for the municipality of Srebrenica, took place in the autumn of 1990, not in 1991. After the results of the elections were (10)announced in Srebrenica, a multi-ethnic government was constituted on the basis of the census and the results of the elections. It needs to be pointed out that Bosniak political parties had the majority in the government (15)and in the Municipal Assembly of Srebrenica. • Q.: Mr. Mandzic, you were a councilman in the municipality of Srebrenica, weren't you? • A.: No, I was not a councilman at that time, and you can see that in the Official Gazette of (20)Srebrenica. You can see there how many councilmen were there in the municipal hall and who were those councilmen. I was not, but I was elected to the Municipal Assembly in 1997, and I'm now the mayor of the municipality and the councilman. (25)
• Q.: Oh, I see. So those are the elections in
• A.: Yes. That is correct. (5) • Q.: At that time, they did not make up part of the municipal government, did they? • A.: No. That is not correct. They were in the government. They were in the executive bodies of the Municipal Assembly. Let me explain this. After this (10)multi-ethnic government and even before that we had multi-ethnic authorities when we still had a single-party system. We had authorities on the multi-ethnic basis and all the establishments and all the institutions, functions, and businesses, and (15)everything else was governed by multi-ethnic principle. • Q.: But at that time, representatives, Muslim representatives in the Municipal Assembly, did they raise the question of the mayor of the municipality who (20)was to be elected on the basis of that key which was widely applied in our country before and after those elections? So that was Zekic who was proposed to become ...
• A.: Well, let me repeat it once again, that I was
(25)not a councilman. I did not have a seat in the
• Q.: So can one say that in 1991 it already began some fermentation amongst the population, or, rather, among the political leaders and then this siphoned over to the population? (10) • A.: No. In the multi-party system, there may have been some slight differences, but it did not find its reflection in the coexistence of the multi-ethnic community of Srebrenica. That is, people continued to live together harmoniously, to cohabit, and I can (15)mention Skelani. In Skelani, Bosniak Serbs all the others, we went to school together, worked together, visited one another, were family friends and all that until 1991. • Q.: But, Mr. Mandzic, why then did the Serb (20)population leave Srebrenica in 1992?
• A.: They began to move out of Srebrenica then,
yes, because in early spring and even before spring, I
should say, it was in February that some local
politicians, Serb politicians, began to request the
(25)constitution of a monoethnic Serb assembly and
• Q.: So Serbs were leaving Srebrenica at the time?
• A.: According to what I can remember, a small or,
(20)rather, a large part of them did leave the town area
itself, which had about 5.000 inhabitants. They were
leaving the town by actually moving away their families
to the towns such as Bajina Basta and other towns in
Yugoslavia itself.
(25)We wanted to know why they were doing that,
(5) • Q.: What about the municipal authorities, the political structures who were in power at that time? Did they do anything to prevent this movement of population from the urban area of Srebrenica?
• A.: Yes. Yes, they did. First of all, it was
(10)the former president of the Municipal Assembly, Besim
Besovic who acted at that time. He put a lot of
personal effort in visiting various locations, seeing
people, asking them not to panic, telling them that
they had been living in the area together for hundreds
(15)of years and that they were capable of surmounting even
this crisis, and he would tell them that there was no
need for anyone to move away.
However, I must stress that at that time,
because the Serbs were leaving, some Bosniaks were
(20)leaving as well. Actually, it was the Bosniaks who had
left the town area in March and April 1992. So, sir,
let us be clear. The town of Srebrenica, in the month
of April, was abandoned, first of all, by Bosniaks. It
is true that part of Serbs had already moved their
(25)families away, but in the meantime, they had returned.
• Q.: Mr. Mandzic, at that time we see the (5)establishment of armed forces in Potocari, for example, Sucaskin [phoen] And other villages, under the leadership the Naser Oric, Zulfo Tursunovic, and others. Do you have any knowledge about that? • A.: I think we should move back in time a little (10)and see about the cause. It is true that the consequence was the formation of certain village guards. • Q.: Please allow me, Mr. Mandzic, to repeat the question. I think you should answer the question as it (15)was put to you.
• A.: In view of the fact that in early April
paramilitary units of Arkan and some other units such
as White Swans arrived in Bratunac and forced the
Bosniak population to leave the town and surrounding
(20)areas, the same happened in Srebrenica where Arkan's
and Sesan's units, with the connivance of certain
Serbian politicians, entered the town itself and caused
the Bosniak population to withdraw further into the
interior part of the territory, into some remote
(25)villages. So those paramilitary units, most of which
(10) • Q.: Then we see the formation of the protected area and an agreement on demilitarisation was also signed. JUDGE RIAD: Will the interpreter say when there is a question and when there is an answer, (15)because it is always the same voice and we don't know when it stops. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.]
• Q.: It is the year of 1993. Relevant
UN resolutions were passed and the area was declared a
(20)safe haven, and an agreement on the demilitarisation of
the zone was signed between General Halilovic and
General Mladic, General Halilovic being the Commander
of the BH army.
That enclave, the safe area of Srebrenica,
(25)was it ever truly demilitarised, Mr. Mandzic?
(15) • Q.: Was the command of the 28th Division, which was commanded by Mr. Oric, quartered in Srebrenica? • A.: Legally speaking, I can say that it did not exist there at that time. In the enclave, there were no armed forces. In the month of September in 1995, I (20)did see something happening in Tuzla. I know that the 28th Division was established there by General Delic. But it happened only several months after the takeover of the enclave by the VRS. • Q.: The year of 1995? (25)
• A.: Yes. In 1995 there was a review of the said
• Q.: Could you explain to us, Mr. Mandzic, because I trust that you are familiar with the situation that was taking place after July 1995, and even before (10)that. In the column that was formed in the village of Susnjari in the night between the 10th and 11th of July, there were at least 5.000 armed men. How did they end up there, bearing in mind the fact that the area had been demilitarised? (15)
• A.: Thank you for your question. First of all, I
must tell that I was not present in the village of
Susnjari at the time. I said that the demilitarisation
of the enclave had been mostly finished, but, however,
there were certain individuals who had their personal
(20)weapon licence for hunting rifles and some personal
arms that they had kept as a souvenir in most of the
cases. So one could see such individuals in
Srebrenica, and elsewhere, and even groups of such
people, but they were groups of civilians who had kept
(25)their personal weapons. But it was by no means, you
• Q.: As far as I can understand what you're (15)saying, those weapons were -- it was possible to obtain those weapons through regular purchase, according to our legislation. • A.: Before the war, you mean, yes. • Q.: Yes, yes. I'm referring to hunting weapons. (20) • A.: However, not every citizen could obtain such weapons. I remember that there were requests, dozens of requests coming from, for example, a particular local community, but only 10 people would end up getting their licences. (25)
• Q.: What about automatic weapons, such as the
• A.: No, of course not. (5) • Q.: Let us turn to the village of Slapovici and the 8th of July. Were there any armed formations in that village at that time? • A.: I don't know. All I know is that on the 6th of July, units of the VRS ran over the checkpoint in (10)Zeleni Jadar that was met by UNPROFOR forces, and they continued advancing in the direction of the village of Slapovici, where there were several thousands of refugees who had been displaced as early as in 1992 and 1993 from the areas such as the area of Bratunac, for (15)example. • Q.: Mr. Mandzic, the Swedish Housing Project had several hundreds of flats at their disposal? • A.: Yes, that is correct. • Q.: And how many people were accommodated there? (20) • A.: In my estimate, between two and three thousand. The then-representatives of the municipality of Srebrenica probably have reliable figures to that effect.
• Q.: Let us be precise. Those people at one point
(25)went from Slapovici to Potocari?
• Q.: So you were referring to the columns of people that were formed in those villages? (5) • A.: First of all, Slapovici, and then also some neighbouring villages: Pusmulici and so on. The total figure would be somewhere over 6.000, I think. • Q.: Mr. Mandzic, turning to the first and the second meeting held on the 10th and the 11th of July in (10)Bratunac, could you please tell us something more, more than what you said yesterday in your testimony, concerning the role and the participation of General Krstic in that meeting? • A.: I can only say that General Krstic, who is (15)present here today and who was here yesterday, was sitting next to General Mladic. However, he did not say anything about the modalities regarding the population and how they should be taken care of or evacuated. And it was not an evacuation; it was a (20)deportation, as we all know. General Krstic kept silent. Whether by doing so he approved of what Mladic was saying, that will be upon the Judges to decide.
• Q.: So you were present at the meeting, and on
the following day, on the 12th of July, the meeting was
(25)attended by two other representatives of the Bosniak
(5) • A.: The negotiations were imposed on us by the Army of the Republika Srpska. They were imposed also on UNPROFOR. So the negotiations were mainly conducted, legally speaking, between the VRS and UNPROFOR. As for ourselves, we were merely a (10)delegation which had the need and wish to express its concern about the situation, about the position in which more than 30.000 people had found themselves, about the humanitarian needs that they had at the time, and so on. (15)However, at that meeting, if you remember what I said, I told General Mladic -- and it was quite a difficult moment; one had to muster a lot of courage to do so. I asked him, "Sir, whether, in view of the situation going on in the area of Srebrenica and (20)Potocari, and bearing in mind the position of those 30.000 refugees and displaced persons, I wish to know whether relevant international authorities -- UNHCR, ICRC -- have been informed about the situation of those people. (25)
• Q.: As regards the situation in the base itself
• A.: As I have already stated before this Honourable Chamber, I saw women board buses, together with small children between 1 and 10 years of age, but I didn't see anybody else. And that is how I concluded (10)that the units of the VRS had been separating menfolk from the rest of the population. Because mostly it was the elderly and the infirm who were in Potocari at that time, but there were also between 1.000 and 2.000 men who were there at that time. (15)Let me just mention one example from a village of the Srebrenica municipality. There was a very old man who lived in my neighbourhood. He was 85 and he was there in a wheelchair. He was a very simple man, a peasant, a shepherd, who had spent his life as a (20)peasant, and he is no longer alive, and there are hundreds of people whose fate was the same. • Q.: Mr. Mandzic, you talked about Colonel Nikolic who entered the base at one point. Do you have any knowledge as to the fact of his military position? (25)
• A.: I'm not quite sure what you have in mind.
• A.: I really do not know which part of the army he belonged to. I can not say anything about that. • Q.: As regards the 12th of July, you said that (10)units of the VRS were entering the area and you saw members of the VRS there at that time. Could you tell us if they had -- if they had some different insignia on their uniforms at that time? • A.: As I have already told Your Honours, I saw (15)hundreds of soldiers. Some of them were wearing insignia, some did not. However, what I found rather surprising was the fact that there were hundreds of young soldiers who were there, who were there wearing uniforms, soldiers whom I had never seen in the area, (20)and I believe I know the area very well. This is where I was born. I think that they would also have recognised me had they been from the area. But again, I must say that there were quite a few soldiers wearing no insignia at all, soldiers of the VRS, that is. (25)
• Q.: Was there any police? Could you make a
• A.: I could not. I didn't see such insignia, whether they were the civilian or the military police. (5) • Q.: Mr. Mandzic, the statement that was the subject of the last part of your examination-in-chief, could you tell us whether Major Franken, as one of the signatories of the statement, did he or anybody else request a new statement to be drafted? Do you (10)understand my question?
• A.: Yes, I do, and it's a very good question
indeed. Looking with hindsight, it is true one could
ask such a question. However, you have to bear in mind
the situation at the time. There were about
(15)30.000 refugees. Their deportation was imminent and it
was to be to an unknown direction. Also because of the
fact that on the 12th and the 13th of July, units of
the VRS forcibly stopped a convoy of wounded. The
convoy was stopped in Bratunac. And there were quite a
(20)few severely wounded people, civilians, in that
convoy.
Also, on the 17th of July, on that day,
dozens of severely wounded persons had been gathered in
Potocari as well. Some of them were still bleeding. I
(25)can remember that a Dutch Battalion medical officer,
(20) • Q.: But, Mr. Mandzic, the Serb delegation consisted only of Miroslav Deronjic at that point in time, on the 17th. • A.: Yes.
• Q.: And in the end, I'm quoting: "As regards the
(25)convoys escorted by the UN forces," end of quote. And
• A.: The statement mentions other representatives
of the military and civilian authority of the Republika
(15)Srpska, and the signatory, on behalf of all of them, is
Deronjic.
And I did see Deronjic in the Dutch battalion
compound, but until that time, until that moment when
Deronjic came to see Major Franken and when they
(20)invited me, they had been officers and soldiers of the
VRS. From the place where we were sitting and where we
signed that document, only five metres away were the
guards of the Army of Republika Srpska. So that we had
no say. We could have no saying in changing and
(25)rephrasing the document, with the exception of the last
• Q.: And finally, do you -- are you aware that from Bratunac, from the hospital which was run by the (5)International Red Cross, the wounded were evacuated, rather, Muslim wounded were transferred from Bratunac, from the hospital where they had been hospitalised, and were transported to the territory of Bosnia-Herzegovina and with the Red Cross escort? (10) • A.: I do not know many details about this, whether all those wounded managed to survive. Most of them, yes, I mean, those wounded. But it was only on the 17th of July that in the presence of some representatives of the International Committee of the (15)Red Cross, but this -- there was, believe me, a much larger number of wounded, of sick, and we know nothing about their fate to this day. • Q.: Mr. Mandzic, thank you. MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Your Honours, (20)I have no further questions. • A.: Thank you too, counsel. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Cayley.
MR. CAYLEY: Thank you, Mr. President. I
(25)have no questions for the witness on re-examination. I
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Yes,
Mr. Cayley. We shall continue in the presence of
(25)Mr. Mandzic, and we shall consider this at the end, but
MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] No, (5)Mr. President. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] These exhibits will be admitted. Now I shall give the floor to my colleagues to see if they have any questions. Judge Riad, you have the floor. (10) JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. Yes, I do. • Q.: [In English] Good morning, Mr. Mandzic. • A.: Good morning.
• Q.: I would like you to give me some more
(15)precision about what you have been telling us. First
concerning the meeting in the Fontana Hotel, which you
talked about with the Prosecutor and with Defence
counsel, the meeting of the 12th of July at 10.00. You
mentioned that General Krstic was sitting next to
(20)General Mladic and that he was silent.
Was there any other manifestation in that
meeting, whether from the side of General Krstic or the
others, of approval of this or disapproval or threat or
anything, or were they just silent witnesses. Could
(25)they have expressed anything in the presence of Mladic,
• A.: Thank you. Your Honours, when I speak about
the second meeting which took place on the 12th of
July, 1995 in the Fontana Hotel, yes, indeed, next to
(5)General Mladic was General Krstic. General Krstic and
other officers representing the command of the Army of
Republika Srpska were not adding anything to what
General Mladic was saying.
When he would say something -- I mean,
(10)General Mladic, when General Mladic turned to me and
said, "Nesib, everything is in your hands. You can
survive or you can vanish as people from the face of
the earth because God Almighty has given us life and
given us room to leave in peace, so it is logical that
(15)the survivability of a community, of a people is
determined, decided by the Maker," and the other side
of General Mladic then says, "Or you may vanish," none
of the military representatives of the Army of
Republika Srpska or the civilian authorities reacted to
(20)that. They went along with the General's idea that a
local community might or the population might vanish,
and that is -- that particular thing which instilled
fear in the Bosniak delegation, in us, all along those
days we felt this tremendous pressure to begin with
(25)because of the presence of all those officers and
JUDGE RIAD: Then I just gathered you repeated several times the word "vanish." You understood from it clearly that it was to vanish from this planet, from this world, or to vanish from (10)Srebrenica or Bosnia? Was it vanishing in the meaning of extermination, in your opinion, or -- clearly was it extermination? • A.: That word I understood meant "to vanish"; the disappearance, the end of life of all those people, (15)their execution. Somebody was depriving, was taking away their right to life. And that kind of power was then with the Army of Republika Srpska, their power, and General Mladic put it in so many words. JUDGE RIAD: How many were the other officers (20)with General Mladic, and what was their rank, if you know, of General Krstic, or his importance in this group of Mladic?
• A.: I remember that on the first night, I mean
the 11th of July, sometime around 11.00 at night,
(25)General Mladic introduced all the officers who were
(20) JUDGE RIAD: I gather from what you said that General Krstic replaced Zivanovic, who you thought or you knew was the corps commander. Was that related a little bit to what was preceding the events which happened afterwards? (25)
• A.: No, I do not think it had any effect. I do
JUDGE RIAD: A corps commander means that he will be one giving the orders?
• A.: In the former Yugoslav Army, that is, in the
(15)former Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, I
served the army in 1981, 1982, and at that time a corps
commander, from what I knew, was also a member of the
Main Staff, that is, the second in command to the
commander of the armed forces. And in his area of
(20)responsibility, the authority covered by the units
subordinate to him. He used to be the man who would
have complete control and therefore responsible for the
conduct of whatever operations, naturally, I assume,
while informing, while notifying the Main Staff about
(25)that.
• A.: Yes. I completed my secondary education in
(10)Belgrade and I worked there for about a year and a half
after I matriculated from the secondary school. So I
know the Ekavian dialect, such as is spoken by
Counsel Petrusic.
In Serbia most people will use Ekavian
(15)dialect. In Bosnia-Herzegovina or, specifically, the
north-eastern Bosnia, they will speak Ijekavian
dialect. But at that time I could, as I said, I could
hear young soldiers, whom I did not know, well
uniformed, clean-shaven, very tidy, very neat, who were
(20)selectively torching houses in the Potocari area, I
assume having received orders to that effect, and their
speech varied. Some of them, they spoke Ijekavian
dialect, or there was a mixture of the two dialects, of
the Ekavian and Ijekavian, and, as far as I remember,
(25)an Ekavian speech, but different from the one spoken by
JUDGE RIAD: Now, you are finished? Good. Now, another question concerning the list which was (5)given to Major Franken. It was the list of 239 men which apparently disappeared, if I understood rightly. And he told you he would put it in his trousers and nobody would take it. Have you an idea of the future, what happened to this list? (10) • A.: Yes. Well, I spent months trying to locate this list of 239 men, and Ibro Nuhanovic's son was also trying to trace it. I told you that Ibro Nuhanovic was a member of the Bosnian delegation and we just do not know what happened to him. And it was only through (15)some journalists who came from Western Europe to Bosnia-Herzegovina that Hasan Nuhanovic was able to get that list, and he showed me and I saw it and I also have it. I wrote it in my own hand. But it was only several months later, perhaps four or five months later (20)I was able to see it again. JUDGE RIAD: But during these months you don't know what happened to it, in whose hands it was?
• A.: I don't know in whose hands it was. We made
some guesses that perhaps the Dutch battalion
(25)commander, or perhaps his deputy, Major Franken, had
JUDGE RIAD: Some people refused to have their names on the list. Are they also no more, or perhaps some of them are still around? • A.: If I may just a minute. May I have just a (20)minute? I need to calm down. JUDGE RIAD: Sorry. I can stop my questions.
• A.: Yes, but, you know, they were all my fellow
townsmen. I can. I can. Yes, I'm all right now. I'm
(25)all right now.
JUDGE RIAD: You mentioned, you answered the Defence counsel that Serbs started leaving Srebrenica in 1992. There was something -- I think 5.000, I don't -- something of that count, and they said the (15)times are somehow uncertain, this is why they left, because, according to you, there was no mistreatment, there was no threat. How -- I mean, were there some rumours, or perhaps some information, now that you effectively received, they received, to know what was (20)going to happen, and that it was safer to go out? Why did they leave, if there was no threat or no mistreatment?
• A.: Your Honour, I mentioned, I don't know how it
was translated, that prior to the war in 1992,
(25)approximately 38.000 people lived in the territory of
JUDGE RIAD: I think I understood. Thank you. • A.: Yes, thank you. (10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, Judge Riad. Judge Wald.
JUDGE WALD: Mr. Mandzic, you referred, in
your earlier testimony, to the fact that there were
(15)about 5.000 people in the UN Compound before the
evacuation and maybe 15.000 to 20.000 people were
outside the compound in the neighbouring streets,
congregated, milling around. I have two questions.
One is: You also testified, and I think we saw a video
(20)of Colonel Karremans, who said basically the vast
majority of the evacuees were women and children or
maybe the elderly or the sick. Is that true of the
group that was outside the compound, the 15.000 to
20.000, as well as those that were inside, or were
(25)there considerably greater proportion of men in the
• A.: Thank you for your question, Your Honour. At the base itself, at the camp, approximately 5.000 people had found shelter. However, outside the camp (5)there were no 15.000 or 20.000 people but probably more than 25.000 people. I think that their situation was far worse than the situation of the people who had gathered in the camp two or three days before. They had no water. They had no toilet facilities. They had (10)no food. On the other hand, they were being attacked by the VRS units. JUDGE WALD: I understand that from your prior testimony. My question specifically was though: In that 25.000 people outside, were they mostly women (15)and children too or were they more a mixture of men? From the photographs one would see many men there, but it was a greater percentage of men in the outside group than of the inside group? Is that right or wrong?
• A.: In that group, in that mass of 25.000 people,
(20)there were mostly women and children, but to answer
specifically that question as regards the male
population between 18 years of age and 60, I think that
there were more of them outside than inside the camp.
And proportionally speaking, there were, of course,
(25)much more people outside the camp than within the
JUDGE WALD: Thank you. My second question along the same lines is: When the evacuation began, were the people outside the compound the ones -- the (5)25.000 that you talked about, were they put on buses or were the people inside the compound put on buses first and, later on, what happened to that group outside the compound once the evacuation began? • A.: I'm using the word "deportation." I felt it (10)on my own skin. Began on the 12th of July, in the early afternoon hours. The first to be put on buses were persons standing outside the camp, and then it was only later on, in the afternoon hours of the 13th of July, that (15)the persons inside the camp were being put on buses, were being deported.
JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you. Now, on the
night of the 11th in the Fontana Hotel, the first
meeting that you went to and of which we saw a video,
(20)General Mladic said several times words to the effect
of, "Get your people to lay down their arms if they
want to survive. Survival is in your hands. Bring me
a delegation that can produce people who will lay down
their arms if you want to preserve the population."
(25)Now, at that point, as you have testified and
• A.: I do remember very well what General Mladic (15)said and how he threatened us. He said, "Lay down your weapons and you can either survive or vanish." It was difficult to understand such a request, because we were simply representatives of the displaced population. We were not representatives of any armed force. (20)However, General Mladic persisted in his request that we should lay our weapons, and nobody had anything -- nobody amongst the population that gathered there. So I realised it was a kind of psychological pressure, and I feared the worst for that population. (25)
JUDGE WALD: When you convened the next
• A.: Your Honour, to the best of my recollection, (10)on the following day, on the 12th of July, General Mladic reiterated the request to our delegation. He said, "Lay down your weapons," and again, as far as I can remember, he said that, "Whoever lays down his weapons, I, as a General and a human (15)being, can guarantee there would be no problems, would have no problems. Our objective is not to harm the Muslim population, and we will enable every single individual, regardless of age and sex, to choose the place where he or she wants live." (20)
JUDGE WALD: Did anyone in your delegation
ask him or suggest to him that you didn't have a
population with arms, you just had some women and
children and some elderly and infirm displaced persons,
there was no way to get them to lay down arms that they
(25)didn't have?
JUDGE WALD: Am I correct that in both the 11th meeting in the evening and the 12th meeting there (10)was a film crew filming this, or was it only the night of the 11th that General Mladic had a film crew who was filming the whole thing? Were they on the 12th or were they on the 11th? • A.: On the 11th and the 12th of July, the film (15)crew was there, and they also came to Potocari on the 13th of July. I could see them there.
JUDGE WALD: Okay. My last question deals
with the document that we talked about that was signed
on the 17th. You went over, with Mr. Cayley, some of
(20)the statements that you said were not correct, were
inaccurate. Let me point your direction to one of them
that you did not discuss, to get your opinion on that.
It is the one -- the third from the bottom which says:
"It was agreed that we could choose where we wanted to
(25)go. We decided that the entire civilian population
• A.: It is not an accurate statement, Your
Honour. Between the 6th and the 11th of July, units of
the VRS forced about 40.000 strong population of the
(10)area to leave their homes, to abandon their estates,
their belongings, everything they had. Most of them
found themselves in Potocari; that is, they were
directed by VRS units to that particular location
because of the fire that was being opened. The
(15)population was pushed up to Potocari by VRS units.
On the 12th and the 13th of July, VRS units
encircled the area and started entering the group of
people. Then they began separating the population
according to their age and sex. They started putting
(20)people on buses.
We are the kind of people that cannot easily
accept departure from our homes and separation. Every
single change, every move to another town, another city
is very difficult to us, let alone deportation.
(25)So this statement is by no means true and
(15) JUDGE WALD: At the time of this statement, July 17th, 1995, did any Serbians still live -- any Serb civilians still live in Srebrenica? I know you talked a great deal and told us a great deal about how the Bosniaks and the Serbs, starting in April, had (20)begun to leave, but were there any Serbian civilians left in Srebrenica in July? • A.: You mean before the capturing of the enclave?
JUDGE WALD: At the time of the Potocari --
(25)no, after the capturing. At the time of the Potocari
• A.: Since 1992, that is, May 1992 until July 1995, there had been a small group of Serbian citizens, (5)mostly elderly people. And on that day, on the 11th of July when this massive persecution occurred of the members of the Bosniak community, that small group of Serbian residents remained. And I can say that because I work in Srebrenica, that most of them still live (10)there and work there, and they still hoped that we would come back. JUDGE WALD: Thank you. • A.: But on the other -- yes.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Well, as
(15)far as I can see, we have been working for one and a
half hours, and this has been quite an ordeal for our
interpreters. I'm in a bit of a quandary here. I have
questions myself, but it wouldn't make much sense to
bring back the witness after the recess. Would you be
(20)so kind as to give us another 10 minutes? I will try
and be very brief in my questions. Very well. Thank
you very much.
Mr. Mandzic, I have three questions for you,
and I will try to be as brief as possible, and I should
(25)also ask you to answer with the same concern in mind.
(5) • A.: What is stated here is not correct. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Sorry to interrupt you. I would like to know if the persons who produced this document told you, "You're going to sign it because so-and-so." (10) • A.: Well, we were all very well aware of the fact that in Bratunac, which was a town controlled by the VRS, that several dozens of wounded persons had been kept, that in Potocari there was still a number, that is, several dozens of severely wounded persons, (15)including women and children, and we also knew that at the time there were 27 healthy persons, who also wanted to survive, still there. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. But what you're telling me are your own reasons, the (20)reasons you perceived as being such. What I'm interested in is what Mr. Deronjic told you. Did he explain anything? Did he tell you why you had to sign this statement? • A.: No. No. He did not. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] So you were
• A.: Yes. The fate of probably 80 or 100 Bosniaks (5)depended on our signature and also the fate of the soldiers of the Dutch Battalion. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, Mr. Mandzic. You have spoken about that. Thank you very much. We are little pressed for time. (10)I have one other question in respect of this document. You signed a declaration, a statement, in your language, and you also signed a copy in English. Is that true? • A.: Yes, it is. (15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] At the time, did you understand English? • A.: A little bit.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well.
Thank you. Still on the same document. In most of the
(20)sentences the plural is used in this document. It
says, "we," "our civilian population," and so on and so
forth, but at one point it is stated: "After the
agreement was reached, I claim that the evacuation of
the civilian population of the Srebrenica enclave was
(25)carried out absolutely correctly," and so on. I'm
• A.: There was no Bosniak delegation, properly (5)speaking, on the 13th of the July. Mr. Nuhanovic, with his family, had left; that is, we didn't know anything about him. Mrs. Camila Omanovic had a nervous breakdown because soldiers of the VRS had entered the area. So they knew very well about the whereabouts of (10)the members of the Bosniak delegation. So I was the only one who was capable of following the situation. I was trying to record everything but, of course, I wasn't in the position to record everything because I feared that whatever I (15)write might end up in the hands of the Serb army. So the only person they could count upon was myself, and I was the one who had to understand the situation of those people, and their fate depended on this understanding of mine. (20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So this expression "I claim," first person singular, refers to you?
• A.: Well, yes, but it is not mine, properly
speaking, because I was not the drafter of this
(25)statement, and the statement did not reflect the
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Mandzic, you probably read this document several (5)times, and you probably read it more than I did. If you have a look at it, all we have throughout the document is the first person plural, "we", "our population," and so on and so forth. But there is one paragraph, one single paragraph where the wording used (10)is "I claim." What I'm trying to understand is who it was who said, "I" and who it was who used the expression "we" and "our." Are you in a position to explain that to us? • A.: We, and I, probably referred to a (15)representative of the civilian government of Republika Srpska. In this document, where it is stated "I claim," I do not claim anything, because I was not the drafter of the document. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. (20)So if I can use the expression, there is some kind of schizophrenia in this document. We have two persons speaking at the same time. At any rate, we will see later on how this problem can be resolved.
• A.: Your Honour, if I may, in this document the
(25)drafter of the document used the word "I"
(10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Another question which I have concerns the presence of General Krstic. We know that he was present at two meetings in Bratunac on the 10th and on the 11th. Did you see him again after those two meetings? (15) • A.: General Krstic, I never saw him before the 11th of July. The only time I saw him was on the 11th and the 12th of July. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Another question. (20)Mr. Mandzic, it is Exhibit 40A, and this is the transcript of a video, which I wish to read to you. General Mladic asks you, "Are you a teacher?" And you say, "Yes, I was this morning, but I don't know for how long." What did you mean by that? (25)
• A.: General Mladic put a question to me: what
(5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Excuse me, Mr. Mandzic. Will you please try to answer my question directly. General Mladic asked you, "Are you a teacher?" And you said, "Yes, I am. I was one this morning, but I do not know for how long yet." And (10)Mladic then goes on, "What school did you come from?" And you say, "The electrical engineering." My question is, what did you mean when you said, "I was this morning, but I don't know for how long yet." So this is my question. Would you please (15)try to answer it directly. • A.: Well, I didn't know if I would live to see another day or not, because the enclave had been taken, its population expelled, and I could see that the Bosnian Serb army was treating the Bosnian population (20)ruthlessly, so I simply realised that I could expect the worst.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you.
I have finished. I do not have any more questions at
the moment. So you answered the questions of the
(25)counsel for the Prosecution, the counsel for the
(5)
• A.: Mr. President, Your Honours, about life in
Srebrenica between 1992 and 1995, about the suffering
of the population, the expulsion, and so on and so
forth, one could go on and on. But what I should like
to emphasise, and it goes beyond this institution, is
(10)how to overcome the effects.
In the first place, I have in mind tens of
thousands of expelled who live in Tuzla, Sarajevo, and
dozens of other places around the Federation, and most
of them have said that they would like to go back to
(15)their homes. But for political and other barriers,
people are not returning. And they live now as
second-rate citizens. They suffer because their life
is not worthy of man. But I do know that that is not a
subject that is dealt by this Tribunal. But any
(20)advice, any recommendation that you might have, I would
think would be of great help to other institutions who
are responsible for trying to resolve the problem of
refugees and displacement as soon as possible, to help
those people go back home and live life worthy of human
(25)beings.
THE WITNESS: Thank you. Thank you, too. --- Recess taken at 1.10 p.m. --- On resuming at 1.48 p.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. (20)Now we have also had the opportunity of enjoying this great weather, and I believe the interpreters did the same thing, but now I think it is time to resume. Mr. Cayley, the floor is yours.
MR. CAYLEY: Just a point that relates to the
(25)document with which you were concerned, which is
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Because if one reads the French version, "exiger," "I demand it," then the English version should say, "I claimed." But (20)my question was not to find out about the correct tense but whether it was singular or plural. But we shall wait for the amended version to see the result. Thank you.
MR. CAYLEY: I think that the tense is
(25)actually correct in terms of -- in fact, not that you
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Be that as it may, I do not usually follow the French (15)translation. Now that I did have the French translation, we have a problem, but I will still want to have French translations. JUDGE RIAD: I believe that "claim" is not "exiger" in French. "Exiger" is stronger than (20)"claim," but there are more greater authorities than me. "Claim" could be "required" or even "wanted," but "exiger" is too strong. So perhaps you have to check that. Thank you.
MR. CAYLEY: You're asking somebody who is
(25)not an authority, Judge Riad, but that is certainly the
(5)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well,
but we are not now to go into the review of the
translation, but we do work indeed under very difficult
conditions. These cases are very difficult. We all
work under very difficult conditions and, therefore, it
(10)is absolutely requisite that we maintain good
communication.
However, I should like also to apologise to
the interpreters, but I also wish to say that we have
only a certain concentration, capacity, and after a
(15)certain time, of course, it simply declines, after a
certain period of time. So perhaps we should try to
keep the -- to discuss sets of questions, entities of
questions separately, not to go to one or two things.
I also think that 50 minutes would be --
(20)50 minutes is decided to be a good period of time for
children, during which they can hold their
concentration. For the adults it's closer to an hour,
1 hour and 10. After that, they lose the
concentration. So we say that 1 hour and 10 minutes is
(25)a good time, and perhaps 1 hour and 20. After that we
MR. HARMON: Yes, our next witness is
Mrs. Camila Omanovic.
WITNESS: CAMILA OMANOVIC
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Good
afternoon, Mrs. Omanovic. Did you hear me? Would you
stand up and remaining standing just for a short while,
please.
(25)Madam, you will now read the solemn
THE WITNESS: [Int.] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. (5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you. You may take your seat now. Just make yourself comfortable. Thank you for coming here to testify, Mrs. Omanovic, to give your evidence before the (10)International Criminal Tribunal. You will now answer questions which the Prosecution, Mr. Harmon, will ask of you. Yes, Mr. Harmon. • EXAMINED by Mr. Harmon: (15) • Q.: Good afternoon, Mrs. Omanovic. Can you hear me? • A.: Yes, I can. • Q.: Would you spell your last name for the record, please? (20) • A.: O-m-a-n-o-v-i-c. • Q.: Could you spell your first name for the record? • A.: C-a-m-i-l-a. • Q.: What is your date of birth? (25)
• A.: I was born on the 15th of April, 1953, in
MR. HARMON: I'm not getting a translation, Mr. President. • Q.: We'll continue, Mrs. Omanovic. Could you (5)tell the Judges about your educational background, please? • A.: I completed my elementary and secondary education in Srebrenica. Then I enrolled in university in Tuzla, and I completed the first stage of the (10)faculty of economics, and I came back to Srebrenica and found a job there. • Q.: Were you born in Srebrenica? JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon, I'm sorry, but I cannot see on the transcript the date (15)of birth of Mrs. Camila Omanovic. Perhaps you could ask her to repeat it, please. Thank you. MR. HARMON: • Q.: Mrs. Omanovic, could you repeat your date of birth, please? (20) • A.: I was born in Srebrenica on the 15th of April, 1953. • Q.: Can you tell the Judges when you were married?
• A.: It was the 10th of February, 1977. That is
(25)when I married Ahmet Omanovic.
• A.: I had two children, Dzermina Omanovic, born on the 28th of October, 1977; and Dzermin Omanovic, born in 1981, on the 25th of December. My daughter (5)also married in Srebrenica, and she gave birth to a child in 1985, in March of 1985. • Q.: In 1985 or in 1995? • A.: 1995. • Q.: So at the time of the events that you're (10)going to be describing to the Judges, you had a grandchild; is that correct? • A.: Yes. My grandchild was born on the 10th of March, 1995. • Q.: Did you continue to work in the area of (15)Srebrenica or Potocari after your marriage? • A.: Yes. I worked in Srebrenica and Potocari throughout my life there, both my husband and I. • Q.: So it would be fair to say that you're quite familiar with the area of Potocari? (20) • A.: I know the area of Potocari quite well because from 1996 my husband worked there, and besides, that is my native country, so I do know Potocari very well.
• Q.: Mrs. Omanovic, let me ask you one last
(25)question about your background. Are you, by faith, a
• A.: I am a Muslim by faith. • Q.: And was your husband Ahmet likewise, by faith, a Muslim? (5) • A.: Yes, my husband Ahmet was also a Muslim. • Q.: Now, Mrs. Omanovic, I'd like to focus your attention on the 10th of July, 1995, and I'd like to ask you to tell the Judges where you were on that date. (10) • A.: I was, on that day, in my brother's house, Zulfo Turkovic. His house is at the exit from Srebrenica. • Q.: Now, can you see the large map that's to your right? Could you take a pointer and point to the (15)general location where your brother's house was located? • A.: It was here approximately [indicated] • Q.: So the record is perfectly clear, the witness has pointed south of the town of Srebrenica, near the (20)hairpin turn indicated below the town of Srebrenica. You may resume your seat. Who was with you -- • A.: I'm sorry.
• Q.: It's quite all right Mrs. Omanovic. Who was
(25)with you at your brother's house on the 10th of July?
• Q.: On that date, did something unusual happen? Can you describe to the Court what it was and what you (5)did in reaction to it?
• A.: That day there was a lot of gunfire around my
brother's house. As I came out of -- came out of the
house onto the terrace and was engaged in some everyday
chores, I could see very many people loaded with
(10)luggage moving towards the town, and I didn't pay much
attention to it because the day before that I had sent
my daughter and my son into town to my daughter's flat,
and my husband and my brother and I stayed in the
house. I had livestock which we had brought during the
(15)war merely to survive.
There was a lot of gunfire around us, but it
was at a distance, and we'd already become immune to it
and were not paying much attention. But at a certain
point I looked through the window, across the river,
(20)the house there. I saw a group of people who were
carrying that luggage and were standing below the
terrace and indicating or mimicking that fire was
coming from above the house. Then I looked to the
other side and saw thousands of bullets hitting the
(25)facade of my brother's house. My brother jumped across
THE INTERPRETER: Could the witness be asked to speak slower, please. MR. HARMON: (20) • Q.: You've been asked by the interpretation booth if you could just speak a little slower. Now, let me focus your attention on the following day, the 11th of July. Tell the Judges what you did. (25)
• A.: On the 11th I went back to Petrica -- that is
• Q.: Let me interrupt you for just a minute, Mrs. Omanovic. Were you with your husband around noon on the 11th of July? • A.: Yes, I was with my husband, and the whole (10)family was there together. And then we parted our ways at the petrol station. He went towards Kazani. All the men, all the men over 13, headed for it. Somehow a selection started, and they headed off towards the Kazani and we headed for Potocari. (15) • Q.: Now, what was the date of birth of your husband? • A.: My husband was born in Mostar on the 10th of July, 1948. • Q.: Now, were there -- at this gas station, were (20)there a lot of people who went in a different direction other than Potocari? • A.: Yes, very many people went in the other direction who did not go to Potocari.
• Q.: Now, were the people who went in the
(25)direction other than Potocari, were they mostly men and
• A.: Men, by and large, but there was an occasional women amongst them. (5) • Q.: Now, did some of these men in this group by the gas station have guns? • A.: Some of them -- some of the men did have weapons. • Q.: Did your husband have a gun? (10) • A.: My husband did not have a weapon. A month before that he had been operated on and felt -- and was unwell. But he nevertheless started for the forest, because rumours spread that if he fell into the Serb hands, that he would be maltreated, and he would not (15)allow that, and so he went to the forest with other men. • Q.: Now, was the 11th of July, 1995 the last time you saw your husband alive? • A.: That was the last time I saw him; never (20)again.
• Q.: Mrs. Omanovic, there should be some tissues
to your left.
Mrs. Omanovic, in which direction did you
proceed, and with whom did you proceed in that
(25)direction?
• Q.: And how old was your son at the time and how old was your daughter and grandchild? (5) • A.: My grandchild was 4 months old, my daughter was 17, and my son 13. • Q.: Can you describe to the Judges the environment as people fled toward Potocari; how many people there were, what the conditions were like, the (10)state of mind of the people who were fleeing from Srebrenica to Potocari was like?
• A.: It was a huge crowd; several thousand women,
children, and old people and babies, and they all had
one thing in mind: to escape, to flee to the UN base
(15)in Potocari. Because we believed that if we did reach
that, that we would be saved. Everybody was in a
hurry. Everybody was carrying their belongings,
babies. Women were crying, screaming. It was such a
huge throng of panicking people with only one thing in
(20)mind: Let's get to Potocari as quickly as possible.
If we get there, we'll be all right.
And under such conditions, gunfire came from
all sides. Thousands and thousands of bullets, and a
swarm of bees all around buzzing all the time, and
(25)every now and then shells were fired at this crowd.
(15) • Q.: Mrs. Omanovic, did all the people who fled from Srebrenica to Potocari go on foot or were some people taken in UN vehicles?
• A.: Some of the people were taken in a UN
vehicles; however, not everybody could be transported
(20)in that way. The first group of people, who was the
closest to the UN base, they were put on the trucks and
they were crowded. But there was a lot of panic going
on, because everybody wanted to board those trucks at
the same time. They were clinging on the trucks
(25)because they believed, they hoped, that they would be
MR. HARMON: Mr. President, we would now like
to show a film. It's about seven minutes long. It's
Prosecutor's Exhibit 50. And if we could have the
(10)lights dimmed and Prosecutor's Exhibit 50 shown. And
this film, Mr. President and Your Honours, is in the UN
compound in Potocari. MR. HARMON: (15) • Q.: Mrs. Omanovic, do these images that we've been looking at for the last few minutes accurately depict the condition of the refugees as you recall them?
• A.: Yes, they do. This is exactly how it
(20)happened. Only this is just a small excerpt. You have
to imagine thousands and thousands of more people
coming in; you have to imagine all those voices. The
whole thing has to be magnified. This is only one
truck that we saw. Now, you have to imagine several
(25)thousands of people and the noise being much louder,
• Q.: What were the weather conditions like on the 11th of July in Potocari? (5) • A.: It was a very warm day. It was very hot. • Q.: And when you arrived in Potocari, where did you go specifically? • A.: Together with my family, I went to the compound of the Zinc Factory. (10) MR. HARMON: Now, could I, with the assistance of the usher, have Prosecutor's Exhibit 5/2 placed on the ELMO. • Q.: Mrs. Omanovic, I've shown you this exhibit before. I'm going to ask you to point out on (15)Prosecutor's 5/2 the location of the Zinc Factory and orient the Judges to other locations that will be relevant to your testimony.
• A.: On the first day, that is, when I first
arrived to the compound of the Zinc Factory, coming
(20)from the direction of Srebrenica, I was here, in this
area, in the corner of this area
[indicates], together
with my children.
And on the following day, on the second day,
I moved to the Express plant, which was part of the
(25)transport company, of the bussing company, and I was
• Q.: While we're on this particular exhibit, did (5)you used to work in a building known as the Feros Building? • A.: Yes, I did. For the past three years prior to the war, I worked there as a chief accountant. This is the factory in question, the Feros Factory. It's (10)here. • Q.: We're going to be referring later in your testimony to a White House that was near the Feros Building. Can you locate that particular building that we're going to be referring to in your testimony, the (15)White House? • A.: The White House is situated across the street, across from the Feros Factory. I was able to see the White House from my office in the factory. My window was facing the White House, the window of my (20)office.
• Q.: Now, let me show you that. Would you
re-examine that image again and see if your pointer is
on the right building, because do you see the road that
is going from the top of the image to the bottom of the
(25)image? You mentioned that the White House was across
• A.: Yes. This is our warehouse, and it was
across the street from that
[indicated] This is the
road to Bratunac and the White House is the one here • Q.: All right. Thank you very much, Mrs. Omanovic. Just for clarification, you said you worked in this area for three years. Is that correct? • A.: I said three years. I worked in Feros for (10)three years. MR. HARMON: Mr. President, it is 2.29. This might be a good place to break before we go into the more substantive areas of Mrs. Omanovic's testimony. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, you're (15)right, Mr. Harmon. I think it's much better that we adjourn now for today at this point. So we will finish with our work for today. Mrs. Omanovic, we will continue with your testimony, and we will see you again at 9.30. (20) --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.30 p.m., to be reconvened on Thursday, the 23rd day of March, 2000 at 9.30 a.m. |
