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/ Colormap • Page 5804 • {1/60} (1)Thursday, 27 July 2000 [Open session] [The witness entered court]
--- Upon commencing at 9.32 a.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning, technicians, interpreters; good morning, our legal assistants, court reporters; good morning, registrar; good morning, Mr. Harmon, Mr. McCloskey, Mr. Cayley; good morning, Defence counsel: (10)Mr. Petrusic, Mr. Visnjic; good morning, General Krstic. Good morning to our witness. Madam, could you please read the solemn declaration that the usher will give you. THE WITNESS: [Int.] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. (15)
WITNESS: TEUFIKA IBRAHIMEFENDIC JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you. You may be seated now. Could you perhaps come a little closer to the microphone so that we can hear you well. Are you comfortable, madam? (20) THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes, I am.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Very well. First of all, you
will be answering questions that will be put to you, let me guess, by
Mr. Harmon. So first of all, you will be asking questions that will be
put to you by Mr. Harmon.
(25)Mr. Harmon, you have the floor.
• EXAMINED by Mr. Harmon: • Q.: Good morning, Ms. Ibrahimefendic. Could you please state your (5)name and spell your last name for the record. • A.: My name is Teufik Ibrahimefendic. • Q.: What is your nationality? • A.: I'm a Muslim. • Q.: Are you a citizen of Bosnia-Herzegovina? (10) • A.: Yes, I am. • Q.: What is the year when you were born? • A.: I was born in 1948. • Q.: I would like to start with your educational background, and we'll go through your educational background. Could you please start by telling (15)us what your secondary education was, secondary school education? • A.: I completed a secondary medical school in Tuzla in 1967. • Q.: Between 1970 and 1972, did you attend a higher school, majoring in sociology? • A.: Yes, I did. I completed a higher cycle of education, and I was (20)trained as a social worker. • Q.: Between 1975 and 1980, did you attend the University of Sarajevo and did you ultimately graduate with a degree in psychology and pedagogy? • A.: Yes, I did.
• Q.: Now, I'd like to go through your additional coursework that you
(25)have taken.
(5) • A.: During that period of time, I took a very intensive course on war trauma and I obtained certificates from Columbia University, from the United States. • Q.: Now, between 1996 and 1997, did you take coursework sponsored by the University of Koln, and could you describe the course and the (10)programme to the Judges, please? • A.: That programme contained psychosocial counselling for the work with traumatised women and children, and it took about 300 hours of intensive education. It was held in Croatia, in the small town of Tucepi, but it was organised under the auspices under the University of Koln, (15)experts from Koln and a lady who came from Vienna; Sabina Schaeffer and Agnes. • Q.: Now, between 1998 and this year, did you take an additional 300 hours of training in psychodrama? • A.: Yes, I did. It is called psychodrama. The term refers to a (20)special method of work with women and children, and we were specialised in that particular therapy and trained to work with women and children traumatised by war. • Q.: The programme that you've just referred to, was that sponsored by the European Community? (25)
• A.: Yes.
• A.: Yes, I am, since February 2000. Again, it is organised by a university from Germany but it has its seat in Zagreb. They have (5)organised a course which is going to take three and a half years. • Q.: What is Gestalt therapy, and how does it relate to your present work? • A.: Gestalt therapy is a special kind of psychotherapeutic method designed for work with people with various kinds of problems. But it (10)proved to be specially effective during the war because its methods and techniques were particularly well-designed and well-appreciated in the field of work with traumatised persons. The main objective of this particular therapy is to emphasise the relationship between the therapist and the client, the patient, which is (15)very important in the field of war trauma because it is necessary to establish confidence and an open dialogue which will hopefully lead to the client -- which will enable us to reach the client, reach the patient, at a very close level. And the idea is for the patient to become as open as possible during that kind of therapy so that he can talk about his or her (20)experience which is of a particular importance for the war trauma.
• Q.: Mrs. Ibrahimefendic, in addition to that course work, you've taken
various seminars that relate to your present work, including seminars in
body therapy in trauma and also expressing one's self through painting.
Now, can you describe very briefly that type of coursework and the
(25)relevance of that coursework to your present-day work?
• Q.: Now, I'd like to turn to your work background. Between 1967 and (20)1970, did you work as a nurse?
• A.: Yes, yes. I worked as a pediatric nurse. I worked with sick
children who had been hospitalised for a very long time who were suffering
from tuberculosis. And my work involved children who spent a lot of time
in hospital and who had problems adjusting themselves to the life in
(25)hospital and who also had difficulties relating to their education due to
• Q.: Now, from 1970 until 1994, were you a psychiatric social worker at (5)the clinical centre at the hospital in Tuzla? • A.: Yes, I was. • Q.: And very briefly, could you describe your duties and responsibilities while working in that capacity? • A.: My job, my employment, was actually with the blood transfusion (10)department, because at that time the situation in Bosnia was such that a large number of people had to be mobilised and encouraged to give blood. And people needed to be adequately informed, and they had to be made altruistic and made aware of the need to help the wounded and the sick. So that was my task, that was my job. And I worked with a large group of (15)people, large group of the local population involving younger people at lessons up to the adults of the age of 70, for example. And I worked with hospitals, with schools, with public companies. It was a vast network and system of blood donors. We were in charge of looking for people, finding people who would be willing to give blood and (20)providing the necessary information. • Q.: Now, from 1994 until the present, are you employed at Vive Zene? • A.: Yes.
• Q.: Now, yesterday the Judges heard from the director of that
programme and a description of that programme, which is a
(25)multidisciplinary programme, treating war trauma victims, women, children,
• A.: Yes. (5) • Q.: In addition to that responsibility at Vive Zene, you treat the women and the children yourself; you have your own caseload. Isn't that correct? • A.: Yes. • Q.: Now, we're going to be using terms throughout the remainder of (10)this morning's testimony, the words "trauma" and the words "war trauma." Could you define for us first the term "trauma" and then the term "war trauma," and distinguish between the two?
• A.: Trauma refers to an event which cannot be termed as a normal event
in an individual's life. It is a kind of emotional shock that can result
(15)in harm and damage to the personality of the individual and which can
cause substantial changes in the personality of the individual.
Trauma was the most -- one of the most common forms of trauma was
the war trauma. War trauma is especially significant and important
because it involves a large number of people. These are usually -- this
(20)usually happens in difficult situations, situations of disasters where an
individual's life is threatened and individual's integrity is threatened.
Cases that cause war trauma are, for example, the breakup of families and
other similar events that threaten an individual's life.
The events that took place in Tuzla or elsewhere in Bosnia during
(25)the war are various in their scope, and during our work we came to the
(10) • Q.: Now, Mrs. Ibrahimefendic, I've asked you to come to assist the Trial Chamber in assessing the impact on the surviving victims from the events that occurred in Srebrenica in July of 1995. Your organisation, Vive Zene, has treated a number of women and children who were traumatised by the July 1995 events in Srebrenica. Can you tell the Chamber how many (15)women have been treated in your organisation who were traumatised by the events in Srebrenica? • A.: I worked with 60 women in our centre who spent some time at our centre as in-patients, six or seven months, for example, and I carried out a therapeutical programme with about 80 women outside the centre. I think (20)that about 200 -- no, 140 women and 200 children have passed through our centre in total. But I was working with a higher number of people, I had numerous contacts with people from Srebrenica. However, as regards a specific therapy programme, I conducted that kind of programme with the number of people that I stated. (25)
• Q.: Now, Ms. Ibrahimefendic, you mentioned the figure of 200
• A.: Yes. I only spoke about the children who were in-house patients as part of the programme, but we worked with another 150 people in (5)Spionica refugee centre, then another 210 in the refugee centre of Nihatovici, and also we worked with children who were part of the programme at our centre. In total, about 300 children were from Srebrenica. • Q.: Now, the traumatised women and children that your centre has been (10)treating and has been involved with over the years, is that a small percentage of the Srebrenica survivor community that has been traumatised? • A.: Yes, it is a small percentage, indeed, compared to the number of victims in Srebrenica. However, if you bear in mind the fact that there are other organisations in the area of Tuzla and that severe cases are (15)hospitalised, then one can conclude that we did a lot of work for a small number of people. However, bearing in mind the overall situation, the result is, more or less, satisfactory. • Q.: Now, do you have contact in the Tuzla community with other health care providers? (20) • A.: Yes, with other organisations and with a number of other projects that have been applied to the women in Srebrenica. • Q.: Indeed, the number of women who are being assisted by the other health care providers is significantly higher than the numbers that you have mentioned today. (25)
• A.: Yes.
• A.: In my contact with the victims from Srebrenica, women and
children, we used various questionnaires in order to assess their
(10)psychological condition. We had a number of conversations with them, and
on the basis of such conversations, it was possible for us to come up with
an assessment as regards the level of trauma.
However, we wanted to measure it with certain psychotherapeutical
instruments in order to establish the level of trauma in their cases.
(15)That level was exceptionally high, and the symptoms that they presented
were at a very, very high level of trauma, because the events relating to
the month of July 1995 were, globally speaking, events that involved a
very large group of women and children and also other survivors, such as
elderly people, for example, who all happened to be at one place together,
(20)and they experienced that suffering together.
For all of them, it was a sudden event, unforeseeable, of course,
and it is true that they may have felt a certain safety, security, at one
point, but trauma occurs in a sudden manner and it has vast consequences.
This all took place in an atmosphere which was beyond their control; there
(25)was nothing that they could have done. They were completely helpless.
• Q.: Thank you, Ms. Ibrahimefendic. Tell us now, five years have passed since those tragic events, can you comment on the level of trauma that exists today in the Srebrenica survivor community?
• A.: Trauma is not forgotten, not because people don't want to forget
(20)it. It is stored in the mind and it is remembered, because during such
terrible, traumatic moments, all our feelings, everything they feel, they
think, they smell, they touch, it is a kind of supermemory which lasts
very long, so that those memories are still alive. They have their weight
and they have their totality.
(25)Among the women we worked with, and we use the sample of women
• A.: Working with the victims of Srebrenica, I have noticed certain
differences and within our team we discussed them. We all agreed that the
(10)victims of Srebrenica have something that we have described as the
Srebrenica syndrome. They suffer in a special way. They have problems
that make them different, especially as of July 1995, because this is a
vast number of persons who were in the same place at the same time, and
they went through common suffering and they have common shared
(15)experiences.
On the other hand, at that time the greatest and most stressful
traumatic event for them was the disappearance of a large number of men;
heads of families, fathers, brothers, uncles, and so on. So that every
woman had losses. All the women I worked with had lost two, three, four,
(20)five, six persons. A women I worked with, 56 male members of her
immediate and broader family went missing in a single day.
So the search for the missing, what happened to them? Were they
killed? If they were killed, were they tortured? How were they killed?
Were they wounded? Were they hungry, thirsty? Where their bones are, the
(25)digging up of graves, identification of victims. All these are
• Q.: Do you believe that, based on your observations, that it will take (15)longer for the Srebrenica women victims to recover, if at all, from the traumas that they experienced, as opposed to other war trauma victims that aren't from the Srebrenica community?
• A.: I believe so. I think it will take longer for them to recover,
but I'm also certain that some of them will never recover. They will
(20)never be able to accept these traumatic experiences, wartime traumas, as a
part of their life and to move on, to fit them into their life and to move
forward and to continue living. Some of them will remain at the level of
waiting and uncertainty till the end of their days.
If we were to compare them with victims from other areas of
(25)Eastern Bosnia, I should like to point out that the reality of death, no
• Q.: Now, Mrs. Ibrahimefendic, let me focus your attention now on children survivors of Srebrenica, and I'd like you to assist the Trial Chamber in this respect: Can you inform the Trial Chamber of the level of (15)trauma on these child victims, both in 1995, July of 1995 that you observed, and again, that you continue to observe today?
• A.: The children witnessed all these events. Many older children
witnessed the separation of their brothers and fathers from them.
Together with their mothers, they spent time in extremely adverse
(20)conditions in Potocari, one, two, or three days, depending. There were
small babies of three, four, five, six days old. I worked with close to
ten woman who had only just delivered their babies and who reached
Potocari with those small babies, and they managed, and they survived,
both they and their babies, and they reached Tuzla.
(25)Then there were also other children of different ages. And if we
(25)
• Q.: Did you notice in July of 1995, then, a high level of trauma
• A.: Yes. • Q.: And today, how can you characterise the level of trauma in these children? This is five years after the events that occurred in (5)Srebrenica.
• A.: Though five years have passed since the events in Srebrenica, I
myself am surprised at times, working with children or talking to them,
that the images of those events or of fathers, some children had never
even seen or remembered, they can't remember them, they were too small,
(10)but they still talk about them.
In December last year, that is, seven months ago, a boy drew the
Udrc Mountain, and he said, "I want to buy myself a helicopter and go
there. That is where my father is, and I want to bring him back"; or a
little girl of seven who drew her father who is alive and who is still to
(15)come back; or an adolescent who told the story that he witnessed the
killing of his father. He was extremely withdrawn, though he was involved
in a sports programme, but he joined a group that I was working with, the
aim of which was social skills and communication skills. But at one
point, he started recounting things that had happened five years ago, and
(20)all this was accompanied by very turbulent emotional reactions, and he
cried like a baby. He is now 17, but he remembered every detail.
There are other examples showing that children still talk about
what happened because adults are living together in these communities,
they have shared experiences. They often talk about them amongst
(25)themselves, and these subjects are very much present among the children's
• Q.: Now, you have obviously been involved in the treatment of many, many children from Srebrenica. Could you give us an example of one of (15)those children, perhaps, who witnessed the separation of his or her father, and what effects that observation has had through the present day on that child and the child's development.
• A.: There are several examples. For instance, a woman said that
together with her husband, she had stayed in Potocari. He was working in
(20)the secondary school. He was an educated man, and he believed that
nothing would happen to him. And they thought that if he carried the
child and -- towards the bus, they would let him on the bus. However,
when he got close to the bus, the child was snatched away from him, thrown
aside, and he was taken to the other side.
(25)It was very crowded. The woman didn't know what to do. Another
• Q.: Can you comment on any differences that you have observed between the traumatised children from the Srebrenica victim community and (20)traumatised children from outside of the community, children who were traumatised by events not related to Srebrenica? Are there differences?
• A.: There are differences and they're quite evident. But one of the
main reasons, in my opinion, is that children from other areas who were
also swept up by the war have preserved their security, and within their
(25)family there are male members. So they look for role models among members
• Q.: Can you comment on the impact that the Srebrenica events had on these children and how it has affected their social development? (15)
• A.: Becoming a refugee, and that in itself is a stressful, traumatic
event, has changed the environment they are in. They have reached a new
environment. New relationships have to be established, new friends found
to feel wanted, to feel more secure. But being encumbered by such
traumatic memories, together with the problems of refugee status, made it
(20)very difficult.
Not only the children, but other members of the family were simply
unable to establish any kind of social relationships. They didn't even
want to. Social relationships were broken off. There were behavioural
problems. They could not communicate either verbally or in other ways.
(25)They failed to help one another.
• Q.: Thank you very much, Ms. Ibrahimefendic. I appreciate your coming (15)here. It's now my colleagues' from the Defence opportunity to ask you questions. Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. Harmon. Mr. Visnjic, for the Defence. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, Your Honours, we do (20)not have any questions for this witness. Thank you.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Thank you very much,
Mr. Visnjic.
I think we should perhaps have a short break before our questions,
because I think we do have a few questions to ask, in order not to rush
(25)things. Let us have a 20-minute break, and then we'll come back.
--- On resuming at 10.59 a.m. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Judge Fouad Riad has the floor. • QUESTIONED by the Court: (5) JUDGE RIAD: Ms. Ibrahimefendic, good morning. Can you hear me? • A.: Yes, I can. JUDGE RIAD: In your very knowledgable display of the situation of the women and children in Bosnia, you pointed out that what you called the Srebrenica trauma syndrome was different from other syndromes which (10)happened in the area during the same period and which perhaps happened in other parts of the world, and you mentioned very different aspects of this trauma. I won't mention what you said. But don't you think this happened also in other areas of Bosnia, where there were victims, not exactly in the Muslim area, but in the Serb area and in the Croat area? What (15)differentiated them, in your opinion, since you have a very lively experience of what happened? What makes this syndrome very special?
• A.: Ever since the beginning of the war, Srebrenica was a protected
area, and many other people in other parts in Bosnia, looking at a
geographical map, would see a very small circle, small area, which was
(20)isolated from other parts in Bosnia. There was always a fear from those
who lived in Tuzla, and also from women who arrived in Srebrenica in 1993,
with whom I also worked in 1994 and 1995, that is, until the fall of
Srebrenica, they lived in Tuzla together with their children, their men
had stayed in Srebrenica, and they had contact with them through radio
(25)communications or through mail via the International Red Cross.
JUDGE RIAD: Are you informed about the condition of other women?
Are you informed about the condition of other women in other parts of
Bosnia where they don't suffer from the same trauma? You mentioned that
(25)for Srebrenica it was because there was a very large number in one day.
• A.: No. They were not in a better condition, but they could somehow
manage their life and they accepted what had happened to them after they
were made to leave their homes. Some of the women have husbands who were
(5)killed, and they have, in the meantime, managed to accept that fact, and
they are more or less able to go on with their lives.
But there isn't a single family in Zvornik, for example, that
hasn't 20 male members of its family missing. And when you think of the
families from Srebrenica, for example, most of the male members from the
(10)family are missing. And even though a woman may have, I don't know, five
daughters, she feels that she doesn't have anyone because the loss of the
male members of their families is especially traumatic for them. There is
a woman who lives now with two of her daughters and a small grandchild.
She keeps saying, "I don't have anyone." Then I tell her that she has two
(15)daughters; she doesn't see it as something valuable.
Many women say that they cannot go back to the area of Srebrenica
because they don't know who they can go back with. They think that they
cannot go there alone. They say, for example, "I cannot build a house
alone. I'm afraid. I'm fearful." Out of 170 families with whom I talked
(20)in the village of Spionica, in the centre of Spionica, only two persons
said that they would perhaps come back within a year; all others said that
they were not sure. So this feeling of uncertainty when it comes to the
return is also very traumatic for them because they still think that if
the men were with them, that things would be much easier for them, that it
(25)would be easier for them to make a choice and to go on with their lives.
• A.: I cannot be that pessimistic because what we are trying to do with
them and what other people do with them is we're trying to give them some
perspective and to enable them to go on. On the other hand, I am sure
that those children will most probably face various problems in their
(10)future life, in their future development. This is something that is very
difficult to tell. We still don't know. A long-term analysis should be
done so that we can perhaps see what the consequences will be.
A lady teacher told me her situation. She has a number of
children from Srebrenica in her class, and she mentioned the case of a
(15)child who told her that his father had disappeared. When she asked the
child what his name was, he simply said, "My father disappeared in
Srebrenica." That was actually the first sentence that the child said.
So that is his identity, the identity of a child whose father had
disappeared.
(20)Many young people dream of leaving Bosnia, of leaving it all
behind. Many adults keep saying that there is no longer any life for them
there, any future, and they see future in dark colours. And if you ask
them, "Can you picture your daughter or your son in ten years' time," the
woman usually replies "No, I cannot." If I ask them, "Can you imagine
(25)your children as grown-ups, having their own family," women usually
JUDGE RIAD: They don't even foresee continuing to live normally in a family life and reproducing and so on? (5) • A.: They want to continue with their life and to educate themselves, but they have various difficulties relating to the adjustment, and it's going to take great effort to achieve the results. They will be focussing their energy to their education and the development of the family life; however, at the same time, they are under a heavy burden. They are unsure (10)as to their identity. They don't know who they are, where they come from. And it is going to take a few years for them to recover because this feeling of life, the joy of life, is no longer there. If they do have some joy of life, then immediately they have a very strong sense of guilt for feeling that. (15)At the same time, they don't feel they are free individuals. A woman once told me, "I'm not a free woman. As long as I am here, unable to come back to my house and see the place where I was born, I am not a free person. As long as my children are not free to visit the area, we are not free persons. Only when that becomes possible, I will be able to (20)think of myself as a human being who does really exist."
JUDGE RIAD: With regard to this woman, you mentioned that women
who knew that their husbands are dead are in a better position than those
who are still waiting. They are not -- are they still expecting their
husbands to come back after five years? Is there still -- how is the site
(25)living? Are these women still expecting back, or are they getting
• A.: In the past two years and in view of the fact that a lot of mass graves have been excavated, exhumed, and a number of individuals have been (5)identified, so many women now are faced with this problem relating to the identification and the encounter with bodies that have been dug out. So some of the women now have to bury their dead so they have that problem now as to the burial site of their family members. I know only one woman who has remarried. Other women usually do not even think about (10)it, because in most of the cases they are under a heavy influence from the family of their husband, so they cannot actually get married. Another problem is the fact that their husbands are not yet declared dead. They may have been declared missing, but it's them who have to declare them as dead. Only then can they actually remarry. (15) JUDGE RIAD: You have a background, a very scientific background. Could you put this syndrome, this Srebrenica trauma syndrome, in comparison with other things in your historical studies? If you compare it to the Holocaust, for instance. You mentioned that it's a very specific kind of syndrome. Could you put it in the same category? (20)
• A.: If one takes into account the fact that all detainees in
Srebrenica were members of the same ethnic group and that, in a way, that
ethnic group was targeted or, as we have had a chance to listen to in the
media, that the situation they had found themselves in was a "to be" or
"not to be" situation, then in those terms, in those respects, one can
(25)perhaps compare the two situations.
• A.: There are such examples. Women told about how, on the first day,
boys who were over 10 or 12 were able to board the buses; however, on the
following day, children aged 12 and above were no longer allowed on
(10)board.
One woman told us about her son who was three years old, and she
said that she disguised him as a girl because she was afraid that she
would be forced to leave him behind.
One woman said that her son's name was Alija, and when they asked
(15)her her son's name, she said his name was Danijel because she was afraid
to tell them the real name of her son. So when he came to our centre in
September 1995, he kept saying, "My name is Danijel. My name is Danijel,"
and then his mother had to tell him, "No, your name is actually Alija, but
I told you that your name was Danijel because I had to."
(20)They were fearful even for the very young children. One woman,
for example, told us how her son had been taken away and pushed aside, and
they asked her, "Well, why would you care about this one child of yours?"
This young man suffers from nightmares now. He wakes up in the middle of
the night and gets up, and he has certain difficulties, certain problems
(25)that necessitate psychotherapy. He was a very withdrawn boy at the
JUDGE RIAD: You and other people like you who are doing this great humanitarian job, are you trying to -- is there any chance in helping these people to live together again in Bosnia, despite the (10)different ethnic groups? Is there a hope, do you think?
• A.: I personally think that that is the only possible choice and a way
out and that there is hope. I've had an opportunity to discuss things
with people in Srebrenica, people who lived there, and as a person working
with traumatised people, I felt that women in Srebrenica who live there
(15)today, women of Serbian nationality, are also traumatised.
I think that it is very important to speak out, to talk about what
has happened. Things happened and they happened at a certain period of
time. It is very important for this aggressive impulse to be dealt with,
to open it up. Because on the basis of my knowledge about the so-called
(20)conspiracy of silence about what has happened, I think that the life
amongst us - this is my idea of Bosnia because I have problems saying that
Bosnia is a divided country because I spent years living with people from
other ethnic backgrounds, and with my friends, I still have contact with
all of my friends - I think it is very important that we discuss openly
(25)things that happened.
JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much, Ms. Ibrahimefendic. Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Judge Riad. (15)Madam Judge Wald. JUDGE WALD: Thank you. Among the 140 women from Srebrenica and the several hundred children that you have had contact with or treated, are there any success stories? I mean, are there any of those women or those children that, (20)with the help that your centre has been able to provide, appear to have surmounted the obstacles and are on their way to a relatively healthy and normal life? If so, how small a percentage is that of the group that you know?
• A.: At the end of therapy, we had some very significant improvements
(25)in terms of the reduction of symptoms and the improved functioning of
(10) JUDGE WALD: Are you optimistic about the majority of these women and children or only hopeful that some segment will move on to a pretty normal life? • A.: I feel optimistic about their recovery. I want to be an optimist. I want to give them strength; I want to help them to discover (15)their resources, their healthy instincts, so that they can move forward. I keep trying to find what is still sound in their personality so that this might give an impulse for their life in the future, to give meaning to that life. The husband has disappeared, such and such a thing has happened, (20)what can I do now? How can I move on? Where should I start from? I try to make those memories less painful, those images less terrible, so that they should accept them and integrate them into their daily lives, but that is very difficult for the moment. My attitude is an optimistic one, and that is how I behave. (25)
JUDGE WALD: The problems that these women have, and their
• A.: The family was a very strong factor in the villages and family
ties were very close. They all sought to preserve those ties because this
is precious to them, this is their treasure. By redeveloping those family
ties and establishing broader ties with the community, they are trying to
(15)establish a future. But here, too, there are ups and downs. For a
moment, one may think that things are moving forward, and then already the
next minute, this comes to a standstill.
Some things that are extremely important for planning for the
future have to be addressed; for example, this problem of persecution, the
(20)problem of being a refugee. Life as a refugee is extremely distressful.
Women do not have any privacy; they don't have any amenities; they live in
a single room with several members of the family, and all this has a
depressing effect. They all have hopes of returning, of changes, of
something else happening. Their original habits and cultural habits that
(25)they had in their villages, they're trying to transplant them into the
JUDGE WALD: My last question. You talked some about the (5)differences in the kinds of feelings that were evoked by the women who went through the Srebrenica evacuation as perhaps opposed to other women who suffered from other kinds of injuries in the Bosnian conflict. We've been acquainted with some of those other injuries. Do you think there is a difference, part of the guilt syndrome, that comes from the fact that in (10)some of these other cases, the women themselves have suffered? They've either been in camps or they may have suffered sexual abuse or rape along with the injuries that were inflicted on the men, whereas in this case, the women were taken down one path, sent off to Tuzla, and then the men, as it were, were the object of all of the abuse and of eventual (15)execution? So that there's kind of what we call the Holocaust syndrome. "Why was I allowed to survive when someone else wasn't?" Do you think that's part of the uniqueness of the Srebrenica syndrome?
• A.: The feeling of guilt is extremely pronounced among all the women.
(20)"I am guilty for not envisaging certain things. I'm guilty for not going
together with my husband. I am guilty for not being able to save my child
because they took my child, which means I did not fulfil my principal role
as a woman. I'm guilty because I can't find my way around alone. I'm
guilty if the children have learning difficulties. I'm guilty if they
(25)don't get an education."
(5) JUDGE WALD: Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Judge Wald. Mrs. Ibrahimefendic -- I don't know whether I pronounced your name properly -- I think that we have here a very broad spectrum of questions (10)regarding all the consequences, but I shall try to ask you for a few points of clarification. You spoke about the fact that this was sudden, that they were taken by surprise, that this is a factor, and that this is part of the specificity of the Srebrenica syndrome. The fact that this was a (15)protected area, a safe area, can this also be part of the characteristics of the Srebrenica syndrome; and, furthermore, is this syndrome of guilt, should it be shared by the International Community because it was a protected area?
• A.: If we take into consideration the stories of the women and their
(20)explanations for the Srebrenica tragedy, they do put a lot of blame onto
the world. "Why didn't they help us? Why did they let us go? Why did
they declare us to be a safe area? Why did they let us live for five
years in -- for three years in a camp?" That is what women said, where we
managed to survive, where we got some food and supplies irregular -- on an
(25)irregular basis, where we managed to adjust to that way of life. We
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] You also spoke about the stories
of great suffering. You also mentioned that you used various techniques
(25)like psychodrama and Gestalt therapy. If we accept these methods of
• A.: Applying these techniques and methods, the most significant was evoking the last encounters with loved ones. These were the most painful points when evoking memories. At the beginning of therapy, it was very hard for women to express (10)themselves verbally. In most cases, they couldn't control their emotions, and it took a great deal of time, several months of participation in these projects, for them to express those feelings. And using these methods and techniques, they had to disassociate themselves, in a sense, from their pain, from their anger, from their sorrow, and from the other emotions, (15)and to relieve themselves of them, to feel free of them. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Under those conditions, is it possible for people to refer -- to recreate those painful moments? Because those were seconds; the very moment of separation, that was a second one might say, a few seconds. Those people, do they manage to (20)recreate through role playing that situation?
• A.: Yes, yes, yes. I have already said that in very traumatic
situations, all the sensors are switched on. Sensory reactions are
powerful so that everything you feel, see, smell, touch, is deeply
embedded in the memory. And in the course of therapy when a woman reaches
(25)that level, she can accompany those events with all the emotional reaction
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Can one say that these persons have difficulty in perceiving their surroundings, because this supermemory that you have mentioned was and still is under a kind of mortgage, (15)encumbered by those events.
• A.: Yes. They think that they differ from other people. "I am
different; I am special; I am separate; I have experienced this." And it
is very important in the course of therapy for that woman to accept that
she is a normal person that is reacting normally to an abnormal
(20)situation. The situation was abnormal, and she's a normal person, and her
reactions are normal.
When she accepts this as being normal, then she starts thinking
about herself in a different manner. She learns to accept that she is
normal. The situation was abnormal. "It was normal for me to react in
(25)this way. It was an unusual experience and out-of-the-ordinary
(5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You have already mentioned that the absence of information about the destiny of the men in this case, because we are mostly speaking about women, that the absence of this information about the destiny of their men and the importance of exhumation work and identification of bodies. I think you already (10)mentioned this, but the mourning, if we relate this question to marriage or not marriage, is it impossible to mourn without having this information, because as you said, the absence of information provokes anxiety, anxiety provokes tension, permanent tension leads to depression, and so on. So what is the role which the exhumation and identification of (15)bodies can have to somehow reduce all these problems?
• A.: I think that the agony must be brought to an end. The truth is
cruel, but it is the truth, and women are ready to accept the truth,
regardless of what they will be told, because they can no longer vacillate
in this despair and uncertainty because this is important for their life
(20)in the future. What happened? They must know what happened, and they
must be given more detailed information about their loved ones. They must
know where they will be able to bury them and to perform the regular
rites.
Some women have already started those rituals linked to the
(25)burial, and they accept the truth that the husband is not there on the
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Do you think that it could be useful to overcome these difficulties, at least a little, for you to have included in the Srebrenica syndrome the fact there was a large number of (10)people sharing the same suffering, do you think it must be useful, perhaps, to have a monument or a collective ceremony in observance of the missing people or to pay homage to those missing people, men? • A.: For the people of Srebrenica, this would be evidence, recognition, for the suffering they have lived through. They want this to be observed (15)in a certain place, a certain time so that it be said that people have lived through this, and they have managed to overcome it and their memories and their traumas. Even though they are victims, they want this to be observed in a way, with some kind of material evidence. Every 11th of the month, the women of Srebrenica in Tuzla rally in (20)public places with lists of missing persons demanding the truth. They want more respect for what they have lived through. Somebody has to pay homage to their pain and their sacrifice, and in a sense they wish to share their sorrow, their disappointment, their destiny, and their future.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] You also mentioned the
(25)importance of the development of children and adolescents, though each
(10) • A.: In our work, we are working in several directions, and we are seeking to cover all our clients by treatment and to help them function in all spheres: emotional, social, behavioural. We seek to develop a social net, a system of social support within which they will feel safe and accepted. (15)However, the problem with young people and children is that they are trying to deny what has happened, trying to forget it, to put it aside. They do not wish -- they cannot face up to it, they cannot accept that that is a part of their life and to live with the truth of it. The problem of denial is present among young people. (20)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] I didn't, of course, wish to
establish any kind of a programme here, but perhaps a revision of history
could help to reformulate, review, and learn. Perhaps from the point of
view of the plan of education or a revision of history, the teaching of
history, do you think that something should be done, any changes should be
(25)made?
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] A small point of clarification. You mentioned that children have problems and symptoms of -- development symptoms. Are things moving forward a little, after all? • A.: You mean in a positive direction? I'm afraid I didn't quite (15)understand your question. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Perhaps there's a problem of translation. You said that children have many neurotic -- neurosis symptoms -- sorry, bed-wetting. After they had outgrown these problems, are things going further? Do they even relieve themselves in bed, have a (20)bowel movement in bed? Does that happen sometimes?
• A.: People who receive therapeutic assistance are very happy, but
unfortunately we can't provide everyone with this treatment. We have very
good results with the reduction of bed-wetting in children who, because of
trauma, have this problem. However, we can't cover a large number of
(25)children. It is a fact that some women do not want any assistance.
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] It is said that the first step towards dealing with a problem is to start talking about it; that is a general principle. But I think that here that principle does not hold (15)true. Does this principle, in your opinion, apply to this situation, or are there other requirements, other steps to be taken to address this problem? Because it is not a situation of normal treatment, but other techniques need to be applied, other resources and other concerns taken into consideration. (20)
• A.: To deal with these problems, it is important to have a multifold
approach. One is therapy. To deal with a problem, it is true that one
has to start to talk about it. But there are many other problems that
need to be resolved in the community: social problems, political problems,
economic problems, for an improvement to be achieved.
(25)It is a fact that the very principle that someone starts talking
JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You said, and I quote you: "It is not possible to engage in long-term research." Do you think that in terms of the consequences of several events, and in this particular case (10)we're talking about Srebrenica, can we stop with the results we have achieved or should we really engage in research, applying follow-up methods, so that we can have a more global view of the situation? • A.: I think we need to have a global approach as to what has happened because we are acting in a disunited manner, and I think our efforts need (15)to be pooled, and possible follow-up studies should be engaged in to see the changes that will occur. To foresee the future of a child who is dislocated, for whom the world has become an unsafe place, a child that doesn't have a home, who has lost his father, who is living in a refugee centre under very (20)difficult conditions, it is very difficult to foresee his future. A global approach would help us all to feel safer and to know in which direction we should all focus our efforts.
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] I would like to put to you a
last question. Of course, there are many questions but we need to finish
(25)with this testimony.
(5) • A.: Those who have survived do not feel happy. They have a large number of problems. Many women say, "Why am I alive when others are dead?" They say that very often. "Why do I have to struggle with all the difficulties that life entails? I just can't deal with them." But I think that those who have survived need to be given a (10)meaning to life. Life does have meaning regardless of what they have lived through. In my practical work, as you have said, I frequently say to the women, "If you don't tell me the story about your son, I don't know him, and therefore if you are gone, no one will ever hear the story about him." So I try to instil in them the feeling that life does have a (15)meaning regardless, that life in itself is burdensome, that in life we do have to encounter many difficulties and changes; that people with no traumatic experiences, experiences involving risk to life, are fortunate but that life is a struggle, and we have to confront all those problems and misfortunes that come our way. (20)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Another question. You touched
upon a point. I think that the whole of humanity, in my opinion, this is
a humanitarian cause, and the whole of mankind should be interested, and
the International Tribunal, as a part of the community, must pursue the
objectives that are yours.
(25)You have experience. What do you think should be the role of the
(5) • A.: The Hague Tribunal, all the victims, all the women with whom I have had a chance to work, has a very great significance for them. They expect that justice will be done. We believed we were members of a civilised society, of a society where good will be compensated for and evil punished. They do trust that the real causes of what happened will (10)be identified and that the people will muster enough courage, including victims, to tell the story of what happened. Those who did it, that they too will be able to speak out so that we all can have a future, so that we all can have a basis for a common life together one day. Great expectations are being placed upon the Tribunal. People (15)expect that justice will be done and that the right decisions will be reached. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes. I think that my colleague Judge Fouad Riad has one more question for the witness.
JUDGE RIAD:
[Int.] Yes, Mr. President. Thank you very
(20)much.
• A.: I think that there should be a change in the behaviour of those
women. The women we worked with, we tried to make them realise that they
(20)have to take life in their own hands, that they have to assume
responsibility for a number of problems that would normally be taken care
of by men, that they have children and consequently have responsibility
regarding their children. So there have been certain changes in that
regard.
(25)Many women would like to go back, for example, to go back and
JUDGE RIAD: You added when you were answering Judge Wald that
family is an important factor, very important factor in this rural life,
and it's a factor in life for the continuation of life. Can these women,
(25)now that the men have disappeared, can they remarry without being looked
• A.: I think that many women still think about having a man and remarrying, but many women do not have anyone to marry because there are (5)not many men in such an environment, so it is very difficult to discuss these issues with women. Not only in Srebrenica, but elsewhere in Bosnia, many young people left, left the country as early as the beginning of 1992. And later on, during the war many people abandoned, left the country, and they're still doing that. (10)So I've heard people say that Bosnia is the country of women. There are very many women in Bosnia. And in the settlements where they live, there are mostly women and children. There is very few men left who have survived and who are living in these centres. In the Spionica settlement, there are 90 single mothers out of 170 (15)families. I think that there are about 20 married couples, and the rest is the elderly population, over 70, including elderly men. So these are very particular social problems which may lead -- or may, rather, affect the continuation of life in those parts of the world. Certain men have survived, but they have their own families, and they are (20)surrounded by a number of women who don't have husbands. JUDGE RIAD: In this very closed environment, did the percentage of birth decrease substantially? • A.: Yes, in the year 2000, but there was an increase at one point in birth rate in previous years in Tuzla, as far as I know. (25)
JUDGE RIAD: How much was the decrease in your opinion in the last
• A.: It's very difficult to provide a precise answer to your question because Tuzla was the place where many refugees found accommodation, and the town population has become older. There were a number of births in (5)1996. There was an increase, actually, in births at that time, but a lot of people have moved out, so it's very difficult to give you precise information about that. But perhaps I should give you an example: Out of 1.500 people living in the settlement of Mihatovici in the settlement of Tuzla, last year the pre-school population programme was focussed on 80 (10)children; however, now we have only 22 such children taking part in that programme. But in 1996, for example, not all children could be admitted into the pre-school programme of education, but things have changed and there has been a decrease, and we would actually be able to admit many more children in such programmes than before. (15) JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Let us finish with a question. How many generations do you think it will take for the life to return to normal?
• A.: I will try, Your Honour, to answer your question by an example. A
(20)Jewish psychotherapist living in the States once took part in a programme
here, and I had an opportunity to be present at four of such sessions in
Bosnia. The objective of those sessions was for us to speak out, and her
idea was to have a group of professionals from the federation and from the
Serbian entity of the country and to have us start talking about what
(25)happened together. I must say that I was looking forward to taking part
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Ms. Ibrahimefendic, we have come
(15)to the end of your testimony, and I think that we have managed to reach an
answer to the questions that was posed by Shakespeare, "To be or not to
be," as you put it while you were discussing the possibility of comparing
that tragedy to the Holocaust.
So I think that we have realised that the question that has --
(20)that we all have to ask ourselves is what it means to be a human being.
We would like to wish you a lot of success in your work. It is indeed a
very important work and an enormous work. And we also hope that you will
be able to cooperate with your Serbian or Croat colleagues in order for
all of you to be able to restore a multi-ethnic community where the
(25)dignity of the individual will be one of the fundamental values.
WITNESS: [Int.] Thank you, Your Honour. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I think that we will adjourn for (5)the day, Mr. Harmon? MR. HARMON: Mr. President, we will adjourn after the conclusion of testimony of this witness, but I would like to tender for purposes of this phase of our case certain affidavits, and then I have nothing further for today. So with the Court's permission, pursuant to Rule 94 ter, we (10)filed a number of affidavits on July the 20th, and we have shared these affidavits with our colleagues. They have no objection to our presenting these affidavits. I would add, however, and emphasise that these affidavits, first, are a small sample of views of people who were in the victim community in (15)Srebrenica. Many of these affidavits contain facts, and we are asking the Trial Chamber to consider the facts contained in each of these affidavits only on the issue of victim impact and not to consider the facts as additional evidence or for any other purpose. So if I could, Mr. President, we would tender affidavits that are (20)Exhibits 714 through 721, and then further affidavits 723 through 733. These affidavits contain both an affidavit sworn in accordance with the law of the State of Bosnia, and they also contain a supporting statement of the affiant that was taken by the Office of the Prosecutor. Thank you. (25)
JUDGE RODRIGUES:
[Int.] Let us hear the Defence on
MR. VISNJIC:
[Int.] Mr. President, the documents
mentioned by the Prosecutor, that is, the exhibits under the numbers
stated, were received by the Defence a while ago. We managed to review
(5)them. It is true that they contain certain facts which would be subject
to an examination of witnesses, direct examination of witnesses. However,
I should agree with Mr. Harmon when he said that the probative value of
this evidence should be restricted or, rather, limited to the consequences
of the events that the victims have suffered. MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] So I should like the Chamber to note this objection of the Defence which is actually part of an attitude that we share with the Prosecution in this respect. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Therefore, the exhibits that (15)have been tendered will be admitted into evidence, and the facts contained therein should be taken into account only to the extent they relate to the consequences suffered by the victims. The documents are therefore admitted under that caveat. Mr. Harmon, shall we call it a day. (20) MR. HARMON: Yes, Mr. President, we should. Thank you. JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much. We will therefore adjourn until tomorrow, 9.30. --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 12.30 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday the 28th day of July, (25)2000, at 09.30 a.m. |
