(Compilation Date 24/01/2003 by Desaster Area)

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(1)Thursday, 13th April 2000
[Open session]

--- Upon commencing at 9.39 a.m.
[The accused entered court]

(5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, ladies and gentlemen; good morning, technicians; good morning to our interpreters, our legal clerks; good morning, counsel for the Prosecution, counsel for the Defence; good morning, (10)General Krstic. We will resume our hearing in the Krstic case. The appearances are the same, for the record. And if I could have the witness brought into the courtroom, please. I believe it's still Witness N.

MR. HARMON: Yes. He's a protected witness, (15)and we'll have to draw the blinds. Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours; good morning, counsel.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] For the public, let me just say that the blinds will be pulled (20)down while the witness is being brought in, and after that they will be pulled up again.
[The witness entered court]

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good morning, Witness N. Can you hear me?

(25) THE WITNESS: Yes, I can. Good morning.

• Page 2819 • {2/122}

(1) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Have you had a restful night? Did you sleep well?

THE WITNESS: Yes, I did.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You may be (5)seated now.

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Let me just remind you that you are still under an oath and that you will continue answering questions that will be put (10)to you by Mr. Harmon. Thank you. Mr. Harmon, you have the floor.

MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. President.

WITNESS: WITNESS N [Resumed]
[Witness answered through interpreter]

(15) • EXAMINED by Mr. Harmon: [Cont'd]

• Q.: Good morning, Witness N.

• A.: Good morning.

• Q.: When we concluded your testimony yesterday, you were describing your journey from a warehouse in (20)Bratunac to a school somewhere in the area of Zvornik, and you had left the warehouse sometime on the 13th of July; is that correct?

• A.: Yes, it is.

• Q.: Now, approximately what time did you arrive (25)at the school that was located in the Zvornik area?

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(1) • A.: It was past midnight.

• Q.: So you arrived in the early morning, then, of the 14th of July?

• A.: Yes.

(5) • Q.: Had you ever been to that school before?

• A.: No, I had not.

• Q.: Witness N, would you tell the Judges what happened once you arrived at the school.

• A.: Once we arrived in the schoolyard, the buses (10)stopped and the Serb soldiers approached the buses. The buses opened -- the doors of the buses opened and people started coming out in columns. They were going in the direction of a gym, of a gymnasium, and they were getting into that gym. At that moment, the doors (15)of my bus opened as well and we got out, and we passed by some Serb soldiers and went in the direction of the gym, and we entered the gym and sat down.

• Q.: Now, when you got off the bus, Witness N, approximately how many Bosnian Serb soldiers did you (20)see?

• A.: Between 15 and 20, 15 to 20 soldiers.

• Q.: And do you recall how those soldiers were dressed?

• A.: They were dressed in camouflage uniform.

(25) • Q.: Do you remember the colour of the

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(1)camouflage? Was it a police camouflage uniform or was it an army camouflage uniform?

• A.: An army camouflage uniform.

• Q.: Now, you said you went into a gym.

(5) MR. HARMON: If I could have Prosecutor's Exhibit --

• A.: Yes.

MR. HARMON: -- 19/5 placed on the ELMO.

• Q.: Witness N, I'm going to show you a (10)photograph, an interior photograph of a gymnasium, and I'm going to ask you if you can identify this particular photograph. The usher will place it on the ELMO and you'll be able to see it on the monitor in front of you.

(15) MR. HARMON: It's not very visible on the monitor. Perhaps, Mr. Usher, if you could show this photograph to the witness first and then we can place it on the monitor.

• Q.: Witness N, is this the gymnasium where you (20)and the other men were brought in that school area?

• A.: Yes, it is.

• Q.: All right. Now --

MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. Usher. I've concluded with that exhibit.

(25) • Q.: After you arrived and the people on your bus

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(1)and the people in your convoy, did other Muslim men continue to arrive and continue to enter into the gymnasium?

• A.: Yes, they did, but when it dawned, after it (5)had dawned, the groups were still being brought in and they were taken into the gymnasium as well. This lasted until I don't remember what time, but after that, at one point General Mladic appeared at the door, and because we were very crowded in that gymnasium and (10)because we were not given any bread or water, we cried out, all in one voice, "Why are you torturing us here?" And then he said, "Well, your government does not want you, and I have to take care of you." One group of you will be taken to Kladusa, to Fikret Abdic, (15)and one group will be transported to Bijeljina. You will also be given water when you get out of the gym. He left, and then later --

• Q.: Let me interrupt you right there for just a second. Can you estimate the number of men who were in (20)the gym with you when the gym was at its fullest capacity?

• A.: About 2.500.

• Q.: Now, at any point in time while you were in that gymnasium, did Bosnian Serb soldiers come into the (25)gymnasium and shoot their weapons, shoot their guns?

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(1) • A.: Yes, they did. We would from time to time start shouting, because we couldn't take it anymore. We were suffocating. There was no air, there was no water. And then we would start shouting and they would (5)then open fire and shoot above our heads. And then everything would be silent for a while and they would say, "Just keep quiet, else you will all be shot."

• Q.: Now, Witness N, continue describing what occurred to you and to the other men at that gymnasium, (10)please.

• A.: Then the Bosnian Serbs who were standing guard issued some orders. There was a group of them standing to the left of the door, of the main door, and they ordered men to get out of the gymnasium through (15)that door. They said that they would be taken somewhere. And the Bosnian Serb soldiers then brought some stripes of cloth with which they blindfolded us, and they gave some people some water and left somewhere. A column would march for a while and then (20)it would stop, and this would last for a couple of minutes and then another column would be leaving the gymnasium after that. When people starting getting out, we heard somewhere, coming from the distance, bursts of (25)gunfire. Then it would stop, then everything would be

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(1)quiet for a while, and after a while we would hear rifles being fired again, again at the same spot. And some elderly people said at that point, "They're taking everyone. They're killing everyone." And in the (5)evening hours, between 7.00, 7.30 p.m., it was my turn to leave the gymnasium, together with some other people. I drank some water, and I was blindfolded, and I boarded a small truck which is called tamic. After it got full, it set out, and a red (10)vehicle was following the truck and there was one soldier with an automatic rifle there and he was threatening us. He didn't let us speak. He said, "I will kill you all." We did not travel for very long. At one (15)point we turned off the road and went into a field, where we saw a lot of dead people. The TAM truck stopped and two Serb soldiers approached the truck. They opened the backside of the truck and they ordered us to get out. And I was the last one in the truck, so (20)I was taken out first. And they showed me where I was supposed to stand, next to some dead bodies. And everybody was lined up like that, in several rows, with their backs facing them. The tamic left immediately, and immediately (25)after it had left, we heard automatic rifles being

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(1)fired. Everybody fell down at that point, and those who were not killed, who were still giving some signs of life, were shot at individually, were killed individually. I didn't dare move. I was just looking (5)downwards towards the ground. And when the TAM truck left, when it moved, I turned around and I realised that it was taking people to another location. It was the same kind of truck, the same TAM truck, and it was also followed by a red car. (10)And after a while the red car came back, and a little later this same TAM truck came to my location and it brought people to our location again, some 10 to 15 meters away from me. Men were again being ordered out of the truck and taken out. And the red car also (15)stopped and Ratko Mladic got out of the car, together with the soldiers who were accompanying him, and they were watching people being taken out of the TAM truck and being lined up and executed. After they had finished their job, Ratko (20)Mladic sat down in the same red car and he went back in the direction of the gymnasium. They continued bringing people and killing people and this lasted until dusk. Behind my back there was an excavator who was digging a mass grave.

(25) • Q.: Now, let me interrupt you right there for a

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(1)minute, Witness N. I want to clarify a couple of points in your testimony. You said when you left the school, a blindfold was put over your eyes, and you testified (5)when you were in the truck in route to the execution field, you could see a red car that was following you. How was it, if you were blindfolded, you could see a red car that was following you?

• A.: When I was blindfolded, immediately when they (10)had blindfolded me, I moved the blindfold a little bit upwards so that I could see. [redacted]
[redacted]
[redacted] But they weren't paying much attention to whether people were taking off their (15)blindfolds or not. They were simply telling us not to talk and that was all.

• Q.: Now, Witness N, can you describe the soldiers who were the executioners? How were they dressed; do you remember?

(20) • A.: Yes, I remember. They were dressed in dark green camouflage uniforms.

• Q.: All right. Let's carry on with your account of the events on the 14th of July. You said, before I interrupted you, that you had seen some kind of (25)mechanical equipment doing something. Could you tell

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(1)the Judges what you saw and what you saw it doing.

• A.: I saw an excavator. It was behind my back. It had a bucket, a kind of shovel. And it's a kind of machine that can both dig into the earth and also (5)transport various material.

• Q.: Now, when you saw that excavator, was it dark outside or was it light?

• A.: It was daylight.

• Q.: Okay. And how long did that excavator work (10)in your vicinity?

• A.: It worked until nightfall. When it became dark, another excavator arrived and they switched on their headlights. At that point, they were bringing bodies to (15)one location only, and they were killing people at that location and the lights of the excavators were on and they kept killing men. And this continued until they finished off everyone. And when the last TAM truck arrived, somebody said, "That's it, there's no one (20)left." One of the Serb soldiers asked, "Are we going back with you?" And this other man replied, "No, you're not going back with me. Maybe there will be another truck coming back to pick you up, and then you will go back. If it doesn't show up, then you will (25)have to stand guard all night."

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(1)Then after the truck had left, they remained standing and smoking next to the excavator. After that, a similar truck arrived with its lights on and I could hear people talk, but I didn't make out what they (5)were saying. Then they switched off their lights, and we could see well, because it was moonlight. Then everybody sat down in the excavator and the truck and they went in the direction of the gymnasium. (10)After they had left, I stood up and I started shouting. I wanted to see if there was anyone alive so we could leave together.

• Q.: Before we get to that part of your testimony, do I understand your testimony correctly, then, that (15)while the excavators were working and while it was dark, additional men, Muslim men were being brought to the execution site and were being executed in the front of the lights of these excavators?

• A.: Yes.

(20) • Q.: Now, let me show you two exhibits.

MR. HARMON: And before I show you these exhibits, Mr. Dubuisson, it will be Prosecutor's Exhibit 20/5 and 20/8.

• Q.: Immediately behind the execution field where (25)the men had been killed, can you describe the terrain?

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(1) MR. HARMON: Not yet, Mr. Usher.

• Q.: Can you describe the terrain, Witness N. Was it level, was it -- did it have other types of physical features?

(5) • A.: It was more or less level, flat; not completely, but almost. But where the excavator was digging, there was a slope, a little hill. There wasn't much grass on it. It was a kind of field and it was not completely flat.

(10) • Q.: And behind the grass field, what was there?

• A.: There was a small forest above the area where the excavator was working, up the hill, up the slope, a small forest.

• Q.: Now, while you were at the execution site, (15)did you notice any unique kind of physical structure that was in the area?

• A.: I noticed a kind of iron fence, iron railing. I don't know whether it was part of a bridge or whether it was just a fence that was there as a kind (20)of protection. This is what I noticed.

• Q.: Now, I've shown you Prosecutor's Exhibit 20/5.

MR. HARMON: And if you could put that on the ELMO, please, Mr. Usher.

(25) • Q.: You've had an opportunity to see this; is

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(1)that correct, Witness N?

• A.: Yes, I have. I saw the same fence there in the immediate vicinity of the grave where the execution site was.

(5) MR. HARMON: Now could you next place Prosecutor's Exhibit 20/8 on the ELMO. Thank you.

• Q.: Do you see that same fence in Prosecutor's Exhibit 20/8?

• A.: Yes, I do.

(10) • Q.: Can you point it out, please?

• A.: [Indicates]

MR. HARMON: Indicating, for the record, the small rail above the tunnel leading underneath the railroad tracks.

(15) • Q.: Thank you, Witness N. Now, therefore, does this location that's depicted in this photograph appear to you to be the same location where you were at the time of the executions?

• A.: Yes, I think it's the same location where the (20)executions took place.

• Q.: Now, Witness N, I interrupted you when you had testified that you had stood up after everybody had left. What happened then?

• A.: I called out is there anyone alive for us to (25)go? And one nearby answered back and said he was

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(1)alive. He got up, and we left that location and crossed the pastures and turned left uphill into a wood there. In the wood, we sat down to have a rest. And (5)then we heard shots at the same spot. The man with me said, "There they are. They've come back again." And I said "Let them." Then we saw another shot closer to us. And then he said, "They must have seen our traces through the high grass," because there was moonlight. (10)As we felt them coming after us, we turned to the right and entered a thick thicket on our stomachs. They were following us, they shot into the woods, and then we wondered where we should go. And then we thought let's go to the railway track and retrace our (15)steps. The railway track was immediately nearby. So when they went back to the place where they started shooting, we got up and went through the woods towards Tuzla. So the next day, when it dawned, another man (20)appeared on the hill who had been there at the execution site like us. He joined us and continued with us and we crossed into free territory at Nezvuk.

• Q.: What date was that?

• A.: The date was the 19th. I think it was a (25)Wednesday.

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(1) • Q.: Now, one last question: When you stood up, were you able to look around the execution field and were you able to estimate the number of bodies that were laying in that field?

(5) • A.: It seemed to us that there were more than we had seen in the gym. That's what it looked like to us.

• Q.: All right. Witness N, I've concluded my examination of you.

MR. HARMON: Mr. President --

(10) • Q.: Now it's the time for the Defence lawyers to examine you, Witness N. Thank you very much.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. Harmon. Witness N, you are now going to answer (15)questions put to you by Mr. Petrusic, the Defence counsel for Mr. Krstic. Mr. Petrusic, you have the floor

• CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Petrusic:

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Thank you, (20)and good morning Your Honours; my learned friends from the Prosecution.

• Q.: Good morning, Witness.

• A.: Good morning, Mr. Lawyer.

• Q.: When you reached the warehouse in Bratunac on (25)the 12th of July, people started to be taken out in the

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(1)evening, Muslims started to be taken out?

• A.: Yes.

• Q.: They took out Hamdija Efendic?

• A.: No, Hamed Efendic.

(5) • Q.: Yes, I'm sorry, Hamed. Hamed Efendic was the president of the Party of Democratic Action of Srebrenica?

• A.: Yes.

• Q.: Did they look for him by name and take him (10)out because he was the president?

• A.: They brought him there separately, and they called him out specifically to come out, but they didn't say why he was being taken out, whether it was because he was the president or not.

(15) • Q.: Was it your conclusion that that was the reason why they took him out?

• A.: I don't know.

• Q.: Do you know what happened to Hamed?

• A.: A rifle shot was heard and one of those, your (20)Serb soldiers said, "He's killed, he's finished. Don't shoot again."

• Q.: And the others that were taken out were called out by their first and last names?

• A.: Yes.

(25) • Q.: Or were they called out by the village they

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(1)came from?

• A.: Yes.

• Q.: So they were looking for particular people?

• A.: Yes, from particular places.

(5) • Q.: They looked for Ibran Mustafic as well, didn't they?

• A.: Yes.

• Q.: Ibran Mustafic was politically very active, I think. He was president of the municipality of (10)Srebrenica?

• A.: Yes.

• Q.: In one of your earlier statements, you said that they killed Ibran Mustafic and that he didn't come back --

(15) • A.: That he didn't come back. What happened to him, there was a kind of argument heard between him and the Serb guards. He didn't come back into the gym. What happened, I don't know.

• Q.: You also said that you heard from soldiers (20)who were outside, the words "he's finished"?

• A.: Hamed, yes.

• Q.: Witness N, I should like to show you the statement you gave to the State Security Service in Tuzla on the 25th of July, 1995.

(25) THE REGISTRAR: [Int.] It will be

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(1)Exhibit D-17.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] For Your Honours, it is page two which has been highlighted, the second sentence in the highlighted passage.

(5) • Q.: Witness N, this is your statement, isn't it?

• A.: Yes.

• Q.: The second sentence in the highlighted part in the first paragraph says, "After that, they called out Ibran Mustafic, son of Mujo, former head of (10)Srebrenica municipality and deputy in the BH parliament, the Republic of Bosnia-Herzegovina, and killed him with a blunt object. I did not see them beat him, but I heard the blows and his cries and a Chetnik who said, 'He's finished.'" (15)Did you make that statement to the State Security Service?

• A.: Well, certainly I can't remember, but I'm not denying that I said that as well, because if that is what I said, that is what they said; I didn't add or (20)detract from anything that I personally did not see or hear.

• Q.: But Ibran Mustafic is alive?

• A.: Yes.

• Q.: Witness N, during those days, you saw General (25)Mladic on a number of occasions, you even spoke to him;

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(1)I could put it that way.

• A.: Yes. Only once I asked him a question.

• Q.: One of those questions was on the 13th of July, 1995, in the warehouse, after you had spent the (5)night in the warehouse in Bratunac, in the morning, when you addressed him with the words: "What are you doing with us? Why are you killing people? Why are you not taking us to be exchanged?" This is also from the same statement that you made, the second paragraph (10)of the English version. MR. PETRUSIC [Int.] And both Your Honours and the Prosecutor have this document.

• Q.: What was General Mladic's reply to your statement that people were being killed?

(15) • A.: He said, "You will no longer be killed. It was not possible to come to an agreement earlier on. If that agreement had been reached, this wouldn't have happened. We have come to an agreement now. You're going to Kalisija. Count yourselves so that I can (20)designate transportation."

• Q.: Did he ask you who was killing men?

• A.: No.

• Q.: In your further contacts, did you tell him that this was happening?

(25) • A.: No, I did not.

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(1) • Q.: When they -- I may be wrong, but I think it was on the 14th of July when they brought you to this meadow for execution. You again saw Mladic?

• A.: I did.

(5) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] I would like to ask the usher to place on the ELMO Prosecutor's Exhibit 20/8, for the witness to try to explain to us.

• Q.: Can you tell us, on this photograph, where did that tamic come to a halt, the small truck that (10)brought you there?

• A.: Roughly here, somewhere here [indicates]

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] For the record, the witness is pointing to the far right side of the photograph, midway up.

(15) • Q.: Where did they take your group?

• A.: Here [indicates]

• Q.: That is where the truck stopped?

• A.: Yes.

• Q.: And where did they take your group?

(20) • A.: My group, here [indicates]

• Q.: How far was that from the truck?

• A.: I don't know which truck, because the truck didn't come once; as the truck moved away, the next groups came, because they were killing one after (25)another. If the first truck was five to ten meters,

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(1)about five meters, then the second came, and the third was up here [indicates] And they went on like that, in a line.

• Q.: So in relation to the truck, and you told us (5)the spot where it was, your group was executed right next to the truck?

• A.: As soon as the truck moved away, the group was liquidated.

• Q.: Please, where was your body, or rather in (10)what position was it in relation to this small thicket we see to the left?

• A.: My head was turned this way and my legs towards the thicket.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] I think it is (15)clear for the record, Your Honour.

• Q.: And so from that position you saw Mladic arriving?

• A.: I did.

• Q.: Were you able to hear him say anything?

(20) • A.: I could not, because the truck's engine was still on while they were unloading the men, so that the engine was on and I couldn't hear whether he was talking or not.

• Q.: You remained on that spot for several hours, (25)until the last group that arrived was executed?

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(1) • A.: That is what somebody said: When the last truck arrived, there were no more, that it was all over.

• Q.: So you didn't move from there?

(5) • A.: I did. When night fell and when they turned on the lights, I took shelter. It was cloudy and it started to drizzle, so the lights were not on me, and I drew myself from under that dead pile and I went to the left. And after a couple of meters I was free and I (10)lay there until they finished it all.

• Q.: So you abandoned the spot; you left the spot where you were originally and moved a couple of meters away. From that spot did you notice anything?

• A.: I noticed a truck coming, with men, and saw (15)the dead in front of me.

• Q.: And did you see from that spot Ratko Mladic coming four or five times?

• A.: No. Only once.

• Q.: In your statement that you have before you (20)that you saw four or five times -- just a moment, please. Just a moment, please. We're talking about a particular time and place, this particular place, where you say --

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] I think in the (25)English version that is page 3, and the last

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(1)highlighted paragraph.

• Q.: -- and I quote: "While I lay there, the blood of the dead was covering me. The Chetniks were bringing new groups in (5)the tamic and killing them. "When dark fell, about an hour after I had been brought there, I took advantage of the Chetniks' carelessness and crawled into some bushes, where I hid. From that place I saw them bringing new groups in (10)a tamic and killing them by the light of the headlights of the two excavators, as they had also brought a second excavator to this spot. While I lay there, I saw Ratko Mladic, bareheaded, come up behind the tamic four or five times in a red car and watch the (15)executions."

• A.: The translation is wrong. A red car escorted every tamic, and Ratko Mladic appeared only once. And I saw Ratko Mladic in all six times, so this must be an error in the translation. I never said that Ratko (20)Mladic came every time. And there was a red car escorting each of the tamic trucks.

• Q.: Witness N, I wasn't showing you the translation; I was showing you your statement given to the State Security Service of the Republic of (25)Bosnia-Herzegovina.

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(1) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I have no more questions. Witness N, thank you.

THE WITNESS: Thank you too.

(5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Mr. Petrusic. Mr. Harmon, any additional questions, please?

MR. HARMON: Just a few, Mr. President.

(10) • RE-EXAMINED by Mr. Harmon:

• Q.: Witness N, you were asked by my colleague about the individual named Hamed Efendic, who was the president of the SDA political party in Srebrenica. Was Mr. Efendic an influential member of the Srebrenica (15)Muslim community?

• A.: Until the war, he was. When the war started, he had no authority; other people were in command of Srebrenica.

• Q.: I understand, but was he an esteemed and (20)highly regarded member of the community even though he didn't have a political position?

• A.: Nothing in particular. If he did have a political position, he didn't have any political influence. He wasn't particularly held in high esteem.

(25) • Q.: Ibran Mustafic, who was the former head of

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(1)the Srebrenica municipality and was a deputy in the Bosnia-Herzegovina parliament, was he someone who was influential and esteemed within the Muslim community of Srebrenica?

(5) • A.: He was until the war. He was more esteemed. But when the war started, he meant nothing for Srebrenica either.

• Q.: Now, after the -- strike that. While you were in the warehouse, you said that the Bosnian Serbs (10)would come in and they would call out the names of individuals. Is that correct?

• A.: Yes.

• Q.: Did you know all of the individuals whose names were being called?

(15) • A.: I didn't know any one of them, any one of those men.

• Q.: Did it appear to you that, at least in part, when the Bosnian Serbs were calling out names, that they were selecting people who they were fully aware of (20)and who they wanted to identify?

• A.: They called out the name of the village and they would say, "People from that village should get up." Whether those people who got up knew one another, I don't know. But before that, they would come and (25)they would know one another, but I didn't know our men,

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(1)nor the Serb soldiers. I didn't know either. They spoke to each other as if they were acquaintances: "Where are you? Where have you been? Where's your family?" And then this man on our side would ask the (5)soldier about his family, and that is how they spoke. But I didn't know anyone among the Serb soldiers or among the people -- the Bosniaks who were talking to them.

• Q.: Witness N, thank you very much.

(10) MR. HARMON: Thank you, Mr. President.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Mr. Harmon. Judge Riad.

JUDGE RIAD: Yes, I have a couple of (15)questions, Mr. President

• QUESTIONED by the Court:

JUDGE RIAD: Good morning, Witness N.

• A.: Good morning, Your Honour.

JUDGE RIAD: I would like to understand (20)perhaps globally the main features of your testimony; first, the phases of execution you mentioned. I'm trying to follow you. You said they would be calling on some important people, prominent people, they would go out, you would hear cries, they would not come (25)back. And you mentioned Hamed Efendic and Ibran

• Page 2844 • {27/122}

(1)Mustafic, or whatever. These people, if I understood rightly, were privileged to have special treatment, to be tortured or anything, but they were selected. The second phase were people coming out in (5)lines, blindfolded, and you were not among them yet. These people, if I understood rightly, were called upon from villages, asking each group to come, but not by names. And if I understood rightly, they were executed immediately out, because you heard the fire while you (10)were inside and they never came back. Then at 7.30 you --

• A.: Yes.

JUDGE RIAD: -- were blindfolded and you went in a small truck. I understand this was a third phase, (15)people taken away to be executed. And the truck would go back and bring other people, you mentioned. They would be put on rows and so on. Did I understand you rightly? Was that exactly the evolution of the situation?

(20) • A.: As the people were getting out of the gym, they were being blindfolded. First they would give the person some water, and then afterwards he would be blindfolded and then we would get on a truck. And this continued for a while until they finished. And we were (25)then taken, still blindfolded, to a field, a pasture,

• Page 2845 • {28/122}

(1)where we were then being lined up and executed.

JUDGE RIAD: The bottom line is that everybody in the gym finished by going out, because you stated 7.30.

(5) • A.: Yes, everybody.

JUDGE RIAD: Everybody, because you also mentioned that --

• A.: Some people remained in the gym after me, and people were still being brought in after me. And at (10)one point somebody said, "It's all over," when the last truck full of people came. And then the man asked the soldier whether he wanted to go back with him, and he said he wouldn't, and he said that maybe there would be another truck coming back and that they would go back; (15)if not, they would stay there and keep guard all night.

JUDGE RIAD: I understood. I just want to know the selection which happened at the beginning, which included prominent people, was just at the beginning, taking them out, and then you hear them (20)suffering and shouting. But after that there was no selection; everybody was taken out?

• A.: After that everybody was taken out. There were people who wanted to go first because they were so thirsty. They just wanted to get some water. They (25)didn't care whether they would be killed or not. But

• Page 2846 • {29/122}

(1)they didn't let us do that. There was supposed to be a line; only once you have reached the entrance you could get some water. There was a small room there with a table in it where people were being given water, and at (5)the same time two soldiers would be blindfolding the person. And after that the person was taken to the TAM truck.

JUDGE RIAD: I understood that. So they were all taken. But then you mentioned that when you looked (10)at the field after the executions took place, you found more dead people than there were in the gym, so not only all the people in the gym were killed, but apparently other people came from other places. Is that right?

(15) • A.: No. This is how it seemed because we were crowded in the gym while we were in the gym, and the group appeared to be larger once we were in the field, but it wasn't. They were not bringing people from elsewhere. But because people were so crammed in the (20)gymnasium, it didn't seem that they were -- that there were that many. But once they were lying dead on the field, the number seemed greater. This is only how it seemed but they were not bringing other people.

JUDGE RIAD: But it was all the people in the (25)gym in your opinion?

• Page 2847 • {30/122}

(1) • A.: Only the people from the gym, yes.

JUDGE RIAD: Now, you said that in the gym there were some people that could hardly move. You said they were over 60, but people over 60 can move. (5)Were they also executed?

• A.: All of those who got out of the gym were killed, whether they were young or old. As soon as they could get up and reach the truck, they were taken away. And afterwards, they didn't have to walk.

(10) JUDGE RIAD: So you saw them being taken away, you saw them being taken away. They were not spared; children or old people.

• A.: No, there were no children, and the elderly people were not spared.

(15) JUDGE RIAD: Now, you heard the soldiers at a certain stage introducing themselves to one another. Do you remember what they said, which divisions they belonged to?

• A.: No, they didn't.

(20) JUDGE RIAD: Because I heard you saying that some of them were saying they belonged to the wolves and others say, "We belong to Arkanovac."

• A.: Well, yes, yes, I did say that. That is how they addressed each other. We didn't call them that (25)way. It was the way they were addressing each other.

• Page 2848 • {31/122}

(1) JUDGE RIAD: What did they say?

• A.: They would say, for example, "This one is an Arkanovac," and then the man would say, "Yes, I am." And he would ask him then, "Are you from the Drina (5)Wolves or some other wolves," I don't know, and then he said, "Yes, I am, and I'm not ashamed of it." This is how they were addressing each other, but I didn't know where they were from.

JUDGE RIAD: Do you remember some of the (10)names?

• A.: No.

JUDGE RIAD: But why did you mention Drina Wolves then? Did they mention it?

• A.: Yes, amongst themselves.

(15) JUDGE RIAD: Among themselves. Did you notice any accent? Were these an accent of Bosnia or Croatia or Serbia or you don't remember?

• A.: I don't remember. All those accents were the same for me. I am not very familiar with different (20)accents. I don't know where people come from. All I can tell is that they are from the former Yugoslavia.

JUDGE RIAD: I think you served before in the Bosnian army, you said, so you don't know the accents.

• A.: No.

(25) JUDGE RIAD: You were in the Bosnian army or

• Page 2849 • {32/122}

(1)in the Yugoslav army?

• A.: I served in the Yugoslav army, and during the war before the area became protected, I served with the Bosnian army.

(5) JUDGE RIAD: Now, just for our knowledge, how long -- you said that you stayed without moving until all the soldiers went away. How long did this last, staying without moving, do you remember?

• A.: No, I couldn't tell you exactly how long, but (10)it was quite dark, so it must have been around 11.00 p.m. but I cannot be precise. And after that, I left.

JUDGE RIAD: Thank you very much.

• A.: Thank you too, Your Honour.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you (15)very much, Judge Riad. Judge Wald.

JUDGE WALD: Witness N, I would just like to clear one point in your answer to Judge Riad. I thought I heard you testify that when the (20)soldiers were saying, "I am from the Arkan," or "I am Drina Wolves," that was in the Bratunac warehouse not in the gym at Zvornik; is that right? That's -- when I read over my notes of your testimony yesterday --

• A.: In Bratunac.

(25) JUDGE WALD: -- yes, I just wanted to clear

• Page 2850 • {33/122}

(1)that up, where that happened, okay.

• A.: Yes.

JUDGE WALD: The second question I have is: You said that the soldiers at the execution site wore (5)dark green camouflage uniforms. And before that, you said that the soldiers around the gym guarding you or transporting you wore green camouflage uniforms. Was there a difference between those two kinds of uniforms of those that were performing the (10)executions and those that were transporting or guarding you or were they the same kind of green camouflage uniforms?

• A.: There was only one man in the red vehicle which was following the TAM truck who was wearing a one (15)colour grey uniform. Everybody else wore multicoloured camouflage uniforms and this other man was wearing a grey uniform.

JUDGE WALD: Okay. But the ones that wore the green camouflage uniforms, it was the same kind of (20)uniforms; the men doing the executing and the men guarding and transporting. Okay. Now, when General Mladic came to the gym and said that the prisoners would be transported -- would be exchanged, how much time lapsed between then and the (25)time that they brought in the blindfolds and began to

• Page 2851 • {34/122}

(1)take the men out blindfolded to the execution field? It was the same day, you testified, but how much time would you say between the time Mladic came and said you were going to go to a prisoner exchange in (5)the gym, and then when they brought in the blindfolds and began to get people ready to go to the execution field?

• A.: When we were in the warehouse in Bratunac, he told us that we would be exchanged and that we should (10)count ourselves, and that transport would be provided. But this is not where they brought the blindfolds, not in Bratunac.

JUDGE WALD: I understand that. But you also testified, you also testified both today, and in your (15)earlier statement that when you were in the gym, when you were in the gym in Zvornik, that Mladic came?

• A.: Yes.

JUDGE WALD: So I'm asking you what was the time between that time when he came in the gym and (20)talked about -- you said he talked about saying that you would be exchanged and the time they began to blindfold you and take you in the trucks to the execution field. Was it an hour, two hours, or what?

• A.: In the gym, Mladic did not say that we would (25)be exchanged. He said that we would be sent to Kladusa

• Page 2852 • {35/122}

(1)and Bijeljina and it was only in Bratunac that he said that we would be exchanged.

JUDGE WALD: All right. But the question remains: How much time between whatever he said in the (5)gym and the time when they began to take you out?

• A.: Two to three hours.

JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you. And my last question to you is: At the execution site, you said that Mladic did come in a red car. How long did he (10)stay in your -- how long did you observe him to say at the execution site? You testified today one time you saw him in the red car at the execution site.

• A.: He stayed until all men were taken off the TAM truck and until they were all executed.

(15) JUDGE WALD: Well, roughly how much time did that take?

• A.: Well, there were 25 to 30 people that had to be taken off the TAM truck, and then they had to line them up and execute them. I don't know how much time (20)that would be. You could perhaps judge for yourself.

JUDGE WALD: Well, I was not there; you were. The -- would you say half an hour, an hour?

• A.: Well, not more than ten minutes.

JUDGE WALD: All right, thank you.

(25) MR. HARMON: Pardon the interruption,

• Page 2853 • {36/122}

(1)Mr. President, but I was examining the transcript as Judge Wald was asking questions, and there was no answer recorded on the transcript to Judge Wald's question about whether the people who were wearing the (5)green camouflage uniforms at the execution sites were wearing the same kind of green camouflage uniforms guarding and transporting the prisoners. To that question put by Judge Wald to Witness N, there was no answer recorded.

(10) JUDGE WALD: Would you answer that question now then so we can have a complete record, whether or not the uniforms of the men performing the execution of the soldiers at the execution field were the same as those that were guarding you at the gym, same army (15)camouflage uniforms. You're nodding your head; is that yes?

• A.: Yes.

JUDGE WALD: Okay. Thank you.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, (20)very much, Judge Wald, and thank you, Mr. Harmon, for your intervention. Witness N, I also have a few questions for you. My first question is the following: You (25)arrive at the school, people get off the bus and you

• Page 2854 • {37/122}

(1)told us that at that point, they were mostly men. Why do you say "mostly"?

• A.: Because there were no children or women with us.

(5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [No interpretation]

• A.: Yes.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So there were only men. My second question is a synthetical one. How many times did you see Mladic?

(10) • A.: Six times.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Six times. Could you then tell us where it was?

• A.: The first time I saw him was when I was separated and taken to an unfinished house. The second (15)time was when we were being put on the buses in Potocari, he was standing next to the buses. The third time it was when he came to us and he told us that we would be exchanged in Kalesija. The fourth time was when we were boarding the buses; again, he was standing (20)right next to the buses. The fifth time was when he came to the gym and when he told us that some of us would go to Kladusa and some of us would go to Bijeljina. And the sixth time was at the meadow where we were executed.

(25) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well,

• Page 2855 • {38/122}

(1)thank you. You can still see Prosecutor's Exhibit 20/8 on the monitor. Mr. Usher, maybe the monitor of the witness could be switched on. (5)Witness, could you please have a look at the photograph. The one that is on the screen. And to tell us the following: We know exactly where you were but what I would like to know is where exactly was General Mladic when you saw him?

(10) • A.: He was here at this location [indicates]

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So you say that he was right next to these yellow marks somewhere midway up the photograph. You have already told us that that is exactly the spot where you were as well?

(15) • A.: Yes.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So you were there at the point that you're indicating and where was Mladic?

• A.: Yes, I was lying like this. My head was here
(20) [indicates] my legs facing the forest, and Mladic was standing to my right. And the people who were unloading the TAM truck were here [indicates], and he was standing right next to the TAM truck.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well (25)then. Could you then tell us how far from you was

• Page 2856 • {39/122}

(1)General Mladic?

• A.: Not more than ten metres away from me.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good. Thank you very much. (5)My next question for you is the following: I think I have understood you correctly, but I would like, nevertheless, to have a confirmation. When General Mladic arrived here at this location, he was able to see the results of the execution; is that (10)correct?

• A.: Yes, yes.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Then when he arrived, you told us that the buses were coming from the right side on the photograph and that a (15)line was being formed.

• A.: You mean the truck?

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, the truck. And then after the people, the truck had left, people would be lined up and executed. So when General (20)Mladic arrived here, could you tell us how many rows of people were there already?

• A.: I couldn't count, Your Honour. I didn't count. All I know is that there were quite a few of them.

(25) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] But could

• Page 2857 • {40/122}

(1)you perhaps give us an estimate? Do you have an idea as to the number of journeys that the truck made; how many times the truck arrived to this spot?

• A.: After I had been brought to the spot, you (5)mean? No, no, I cannot give you a definite answer. I was in great fear. I wasn't counting people. I couldn't think about that. All I know is that it was on several occasions, maybe even as many as ten times that they brought people in, but I cannot tell you (10)exactly.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good. But maybe you will be able to answer the following question: When you arrived at the execution site, had there already been corpses there?

(15) • A.: Yes.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you. Thank you very much, Witness N. I don't have any other questions for you. You have been asked a number of questions by (20)both parties and by the Judges, and you have answered all of those questions. Is there anything else that you would like to say? Anything that has not been brought up, something you haven't had the opportunity to say? If you wish to say something, you can do it (25)now.

• Page 2858 • {41/122}

(1) • A.: Your Honour, I don't have anything else to say. I have said everything I wanted to say. Thank you.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. (5)Witness N, thank you very much. There is a technical matter that we have to attend to and after that you will be free to go. Mr. Petrusic, I believe that we have one Defence exhibit, D-17.

(10) MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] Yes, Your Honour. The Defence would like to tender D-17 into evidence.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Harmon.

MR. HARMON: Subject to a number of (15)redactions which identify this witness by name and by other features, we would have no objection. I have gone through this in the examination. I can give a copy to the registrar of the redactions that are necessary.

(20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] The exhibit D-17 there will therefore be admitted into evidence under seal and there will also be a redacted version which will be made available to the public. Mr. Dubuisson, will you take care of that? (25)Very well, thank you.

• Page 2859 • {42/122}

(1)Witness N, you have completed your testimony here before the International Tribunal. Thank you very much for coming to testify, and we are so glad you survived the execution and we hope that you will have a (5)happy life after this. At least in order to -- to be able to tell the world that the things that happened independently of those who had committed them are condemnable, are horrible, must not happen again. Thank you very much, once again. Please do not move. (10)Let us see what's happening with our next witness, Mr. Harmon.

MR. HARMON: Mr. President, we have another witness. He will be a protected witness, and if we could take perhaps ten additional minutes during the (15)break for reasons that are required, we would appreciate it.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] What kind of protective measures will be applied, Mr. Harmon?

MR. HARMON: The same.

(20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] The same. Mr. Petrusic.

MR. PETRUSIC: [Int.] We agree to that, Your Honour.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Sorry, (25)Mr. Harmon, you asked for an additional ten minutes. I

• Page 2860 • {43/122}

(1)was actually going to have a break. The break was supposed to be 15 minutes. Do you need any additional time?

MR. HARMON: We need an additional ten (5)minutes, Mr. President.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Twenty-five minutes. So just for the public, there will be a 25-minute break now and after that we will resume with the same protective measures for our next witness. (10)Twenty-five minute break.

--- Recess taken at 10.58 a.m.

--- On resuming at 11.28 a.m.
[The witness entered court]

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Good (15)morning, Witness. Can you hear me?

THE WITNESS: Yes.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You're going to read the solemn declaration that the usher is going to hand to you, please.

(20) THE WITNESS: [Int.] I solemnly declare that I will speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

WITNESS: WITNESS O
[Witness answered through interpreter]

(25) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You may be

• Page 2861 • {44/122}

(1)seated, Witness. The registrar is going to show you your name, written on a piece of paper. You're going to read that name and say only yes or no whether that is your name.

(5) THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes, it is my name.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well. Are you comfortable?

THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes, thank (10)you.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Are you being treated well here?

THE WITNESS: [Int.] Yes, very well, thank you.

(15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So we shall continue to do so. Now, Witness O, you are going to answer questions which Mr. Cayley is going to put to you. Mr. Cayley, you have the floor.

(20) MR. CAYLEY: Yes. Good morning, Mr. President, Your Honours, counsel. Thank you.

• EXAMINED by Mr. Cayley:

• Q.: Now, Witness, I know you're feeling very nervous at the moment. Relax as best you can. Let me (25)let you into a little secret. Whenever I stand up in

• Page 2862 • {45/122}

(1)this courtroom, I feel exactly the same way; the only difference is that I've learned to hide it over the years. This may be the only opportunity that you get to tell this account. Don't worry if you can't (5)remember things. I'll remind you. Just relax, speak slowly, and tell the Judges what happened to you.

• A.: I will. All right.

• Q.: Now, you're Bosnian by nationality; is that right?

(10) • A.: Yes, I am.

• Q.: And I think you're Muslim by faith; is that right?

• A.: Yes, I am.

• Q.: And I think in 1992 the Serbs overran the (15)town of Nova Kasaba and you and your family had to move; is that right?

• A.: Yes.

• Q.: And that's where you were living with your family in 1992, in Nova Kasaba?

(20) • A.: Yes.

• Q.: I think you and your family lived in a number of places, and then in July of 1995 you found yourself in the village of Slapovici?

• A.: Yes.

(25) • Q.: And I think you were going to school in the

• Page 2863 • {46/122}

(1)town of Srebrenica; is that right?

• A.: Yes, that is right; I did.

• Q.: In July of 1995 I think you had just turned your 17th birthday; is that right?

(5) • A.: Yes, on the [redacted]

• Q.: Now, I want you to think back to July of 1995, and specifically to the 11th of July, the 11th of that month. Do you recall that on that day the Bosnian Serb army overran the Srebrenica enclave?

(10) • A.: Yes, I remember.

• Q.: And I think on that day you and your father decided to go to the woods with the other able-bodied men from Srebrenica; is that right?

• A.: Yes. We decided like many others. I don't (15)know whether I was able-bodied, but I decided to go there, because if I had gone to the UN Compound, I don't know whether I would have been saved.

• Q.: So the reason that you went to the woods is because you feared for your life; is that right?

(20) • A.: Yes, that is right.

• Q.: Now, in the village of Jaglici, where the column formed to go through the woods, can you tell the Judges about the degree of organisation of that column, as you remember it now?

(25) • A.: The degree of organisation was almost

• Page 2864 • {47/122}

(1)nonexistent. The BH army -- I don't know whether I can call it an army, because many were unarmed -- they were preparing for a breakthrough to form a column and then civilians followed them. But it was chaotic, so that (5)it was only in the morning of the 12th of July, or rather at 11.00, that I left Jaglici in the group of the last one or two thousand people.

• Q.: Was your father in the Bosnian army at the time?

(10) • A.: Yes, he was a member, but he didn't have a uniform, he didn't have a rifle. I don't know whether I could call him a soldier. He was just formerly a member of the BH army.

• Q.: Now, I know you've told me that the column (15)moved through the forests on the 12th of July of 1995, and I'm not going to ask you questions about that, although the Defence and the Judges may have some questions for you. I want you to think about the 13th of July of 1995, in the afternoon, when you and some (20)others gave yourselves up to the Bosnian Serb soldiers on the road between Bratunac and Konjevic Polje. Can you tell the Judges how you gave yourselves up to the Bosnian Serb soldiers?

• A.: On the 13th of July, after heavy shelling (25)throughout the night, many people were killed. There

• Page 2865 • {48/122}

(1)was general confusion. We didn't know where to go. There was a big forest, and about 10.00 a loudspeaker was heard. Probably, I assume, they were Bosnian Serb soldiers, saying that we should surrender, otherwise we (5)would all be killed and the shelling would continue, and that we would be treated in accordance with all the Geneva Conventions, they said. We stayed in the woods until 3.00. They repeated the message I don't know how many times over (10)the loudspeaker, but around 3.00 a sort of column was formed which went down. They weren't people with weapons. Some people may have had weapons, but as far as I could see, there was general chaos. There were many who were wounded, perhaps more than those who were (15)not. And we came out at the village of Kamenica, where we could hear tanks and APCs moving around the road. But I didn't see them until we got closer. This was a long column. I didn't see people surrendering. I couldn't see the end of the column. We were carrying (20)the wounded. And I didn't yet know that we were surrendering. I knew we were going somewhere; I didn't know where. When we got closer, I saw that there were tanks and some other weapons on wheels. I don't know (25)what kind. The column was continuous, and then I

• Page 2866 • {49/122}

(1)realised that we had surrendered. When I got close to the bridge, there were five or six, or maybe four or seven -- I don't know -- soldiers, roughly, there, and they said -- the column (5)was moving and they were talking, and they were saying, "Come on." I had a bag. One of the soldiers asked me, "What do you have in your bag? Do you have any weapons or German marks or something?" I said I didn't. They told us to put our bags aside, our (10)weapons, to lay down our weapons and any sharp objects. But I didn't see anyone with weapons. I think no one had weapons. And they told us that everything would be returned to us. Rows were formed on one side of the road, (15)along the stream, close to the bridge. There were five rows of roughly 100 meters each. I can't tell you exactly. It might have been 90, 100, 110. The wounded were there too, and there may have been more of them than us.

(20) • Q.: You mentioned in your testimony that there were five or six soldiers who were around and about the Muslim men who had come to the road. Do you recall now how those soldiers were dressed?

• A.: They had uniforms on, camouflage uniforms. I (25)don't know whether they had -- all wore one-piece

• Page 2867 • {50/122}

(1)uniforms, but they were camouflage. That's as much as I can say.

• Q.: Was it blue camouflage or green/brown camouflage? Do you recall now?

(5) • A.: It was more olive-green or brown. It wasn't blue.

• Q.: Now, after these columns were formed on the road when you gave to the Judges an estimate of the size, what happened to you all next?

(10) • A.: When all the men had come out -- and there was no interruption. There was a column constantly coming out. And while they were coming out, the Bosnian Serb soldiers were, in quotation marks, "good, decent." They didn't curse anyone, they didn't (15)mistreat anyone. Because otherwise someone might have escaped. While I was standing in a line, we had to raise our arms as soon as we left our bags. Very close to me there was a tank, and one or two weapons on (20)wheels with some sort of machine-guns or something; I don't know exactly. And on the tank, in white letters, the words "queen of death" was written. I think it was in Cyrillic, but I can't be a hundred per cent sure. And next to the river -- again I can't tell you the (25)exact number of soldiers; ten, maybe fewer, who had

• Page 2868 • {51/122}

(1)their guns pointed at us. There were soldiers walking past us, asking for money, and when everyone handed everything over, they cursed our balija mothers, "Balija son, we'll show you," and things like that. (5)Almost everyone, each one of them, made these demands. I remember one in particular who had a machine-gun and an ammunition belt which was almost down to the ground. And then two passenger cars appeared. I think they were a Golf, Golfs. One was a (10)police car and one was a metallic grey. Soldiers were sitting on the roofs and inside. There were a number of them -- I don't know -- five, six, or ten. They got out. Some of them had camouflage but police uniforms, so they were camouflage blue. And (15)others were like the others, in army uniforms, that is, olive-green or brownish camouflage. Some of them may have also asked for things. I didn't see them beat anyone. They may have, they may have not. (20)In the meantime, I saw buses which had come up to those lines in the direction of the road Bratunac-Konjevic Polje, but they probably couldn't pass because of us. I don't know the exact number of buses there were and trucks, because there was a curve (25)in the road, so we couldn't see them all. And then we

• Page 2869 • {52/122}

(1)were ordered to run along the road towards Bratunac. We didn't know where we were going at the time. And so we ran and we carried the wounded as we ran. We took turns, with our hands up. And when I (5)reached the bus, I saw that there were women and children inside from Potocari, from the UN Compound. I recognised them by their clothing and I recognised a schoolmate of mine in the bus, in the window. So as we ran, we had to lift three fingers, (10)and the soldiers were running alongside, with rifles. And I think the drivers in the bus and the trucks were armed with weapons, but I'm not sure of that. I can't say for sure. I thought they were. So we had to show the sign of three fingers (15)so that -- as we passed the trucks, so that the women and children would see us. And so we ran for about one kilometer. We passed those buses and trucks. As I said, I don't know how many there were. Maybe ten, maybe fewer. I don't know. And we reached a spot (20)where we turned left. Behind me a Bosnian Serb soldier asked the man behind me -- I couldn't see who he was. I don't know what he looks like. Whether he was young or old, I don't know. He asked him, "Which unit were you in in (25)Srebrenica?" He was probably referring to the army.

• Page 2870 • {53/122}

(1)The man said, "I was in an infantry unit." I don't know why he said that. It sounds ironic. An execution unit, actually. Then the blows started. I don't know whether (5)he stayed there or continued running. I don't know. As we turned to the left, I saw a dead man. He wasn't run over, because the cars were only using one lane, but he must have been killed much earlier, because there were flies all over him and worms. He seemed to (10)me to be like an older man, but I can't say for sure. Then we turned left, running all the time. We were carrying the wounded, I, among others. We took turns. I don't know whether we, all of us, left the place where we had stood, where we had surrendered. (15)And the place where we turned was on a meadow above the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road. The grass was quite high, but it had been stamped on as if people had been there before. I just remember that, that it wasn't standing up, the grass.

(20) • Q.: Witness, if you could wait there one moment.

MR. CAYLEY: And if the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 1/E/1 which is a small map.

• Q.: Witness, you said that you saw a number of buses travelling on the road full of women and (25)children. In which direction were those buses

• Page 2871 • {54/122}

(1)travelling; can you recall now?

• A.: Yes. They were going along the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje. That was the direction. Bratunac to Konjevic Polje direction, I think that's (5)what I said.

• Q.: Witness, you said that the Bosnian Serb soldiers made you essentially put your fingers up in a -- three fingers you had to raise above your head. Do you know what the significance of that (10)three-fingered salute was?

• A.: I don't really know how to explain. It's a sign of theirs. I can't say.

• Q.: If you can look at the map next to you, and if you could first of all indicate to the Judges -- in (15)fact if the map could be moved up, please. If you could indicate approximately where you came down, where you surrendered to the Serbs. That's the first point I'd like you to indicate, just approximately.

(20) • A.: Somewhere here [indicates] near Sandici. And then we ran up to Sandici. I don't know whether we actually reached Sandici.

• Q.: If you could wait there, Witness. I just need to read into the record the point that you're (25)making on the map. If you could indicate again where

• Page 2872 • {55/122}

(1)you came down from the forest.

MR. CAYLEY: The witness is indicating on this exhibit a point approximately halfway between Sandici and where the road intersects with the Nova (5)Kasaba-Konjevic Polje road and that is on the Bratunac-Konjevic Polje road.

• A.: No, no, not really halfway. It was up to a point maybe one kilometre away from Sandici, so not quite halfway.

(10) • Q.: Thank you for correcting me and making the record more accurate. Can you indicate to the Judges where the meadow was as best you can recollect?

• A.: I can't show you on the map. It was in (15)Sandici somewhere. There are five or ten houses there, it's not a proper settlement. I just know there were about two or three or maybe five, six houses around me, I can't tell you exactly. There was a house on the lower side of the road. I saw that later while I was (20)sat -- while I sat there. While we were running I didn't see it, I saw it later.

• Q.: So if you were facing Bratunac, the meadow was on the left-hand side of the road and it was very close to the settlement of Sandici?

(25) • A.: Yes, yes. On the left-hand side of the road.

• Page 2873 • {56/122}

(1) • Q.: Now, you said that when you arrived in the meadow, the grass was high but that you could see that the grass had been flattened. What did you think at the time when you saw that the grass had been (5)flattened?

• A.: I thought that perhaps some other people had been there, maybe a group prior to ours. That is what occurred to me. It wasn't flattened as if trucks had passed there, but rather as if people had played ball (10)there.

• Q.: Now, Witness, if you could remember while we are proceeding to try and speak slowly. I know you do naturally speak very quickly, but there are interpreters in between us, and it makes their task (15)much easier if you and I both speak slowly.

• A.: I'm sorry. I'll slow down. Sometimes I sort of get excited, and then I speed up a little.

• Q.: You're being very clear. You're being very clear, but just if you could speak more slowly that (20)would be helpful.

• A.: I'll do that.

• Q.: Now, you went into this meadow. Can you remember how many of you there were in the meadow, approximately?

(25) • A.: I can't give you an exact number of people in

• Page 2874 • {57/122}

(1)the meadow, but where we were standing at the road, according to my assessment, there was between 1.000 and 2.000. It was -- I'm sure it was more than 1.000, but I can't tell you the exact number but there certainly (5)were very many. We were right next to one another.

• Q.: Now, after you all gathered in the meadow, what happened to you next?

• A.: Soldiers surrounded us, soldiers of the Bosnian Serbs. Actually, people first sat down. I was (10)somewhere in the middle further to the back, actually. And here again, there were a large number of people, but I can't tell you how many. And I don't know whether all of us had come in one group from the place where we were before, where we -- when we ran. (15)There was a tank in front of us again. I saw it when I was sitting. I don't remember whether it was there when we ran up. In front were the wounded. And one of the Bosnian Serb soldiers started saying something. I didn't register everything because I (20)wasn't interested. But something to the effect, "We are from Serbia." Actually, he first asked whether there was anyone who needed bandaging and he bandaged our wounded; or rather, I'm sorry, whether there was anyone (25)who could bandage the wounded. And then a man offered

• Page 2875 • {58/122}

(1)to do that. Then he searched him with a pistol in his hand. He searched the man. This soldier had a black bandanna on his head or a scarf tied at the nape of his neck. He was a very (5)heavily-built man, well-built man. I think he wore a camouflage uniform as well. I'm not sure whether it was in one piece or trousers separate, I can't tell. I think he was fair. I came to that conclusion on the basis of his beard. He didn't have a beard but he had (10)a growth of hair as if he hadn't shaven. And later he said, "You see what happened to your comrades. If you had surrendered, you wouldn't have had so many wounded." I can't quote him exactly, but I'm paraphrasing. (15)Later he said, "Other soldiers will come now. They won't hurt you." When he said that, he probably meant another unit. I don't know. I can't tell. But they were the same soldiers -- not the same, but they wore the same uniforms.

(20) • Q.: Now, Witness, we're still on the 13th of July of 1995. Do you remember approximately what time the events that you're talking about now took place?

• A.: Which event do you mean?

• Q.: I'm talking about now the Serb soldier (25)addressing the crowd, the Serb soldier who asked the

• Page 2876 • {59/122}

(1)man if he could attend to the wounded. Do you remember what time of the day that was?

• A.: Yes, this was in the afternoon, perhaps 4.00, 5.00 or 6.00 in the afternoon. I don't know exactly. (5)I didn't have a watch, and I don't know. Roughly that time of day it was.

• Q.: Now, the Serb -- the Bosnian Serb soldier who asked if there was anybody who could attend to the wounded; do you recall that testimony? The man who (10)assisted the wounded was a member of the Muslim men assembled on the meadow.

• A.: He was probably a Muslim, I don't know what he was, but he volunteered himself.

• Q.: Did the Bosnian Serb soldier who had the (15)bandanna on his head explain to you all what was going to happen to all of you on the meadow?

• A.: Yes. He said that we would be transferred to a hangar or rather to hangars in Bratunac where we would spend the night. And the next day, we would be (20)with our families, we would be exchanged and handed over, probably.

• Q.: Now, prior to you actually being transported to Bratunac. Can you explain to the Judges what you remember of the rest of your time that you spent in the (25)meadow?

• Page 2877 • {60/122}

(1) • A.: Yes, I can. Somebody said or maybe it was him that we would not be given any dinner, which was rather ironical. After that when other soldiers arrived, we (5)were ordered or maybe somebody said something, I don't know whether it was the same soldier or somebody else, we were told to lie down on our stomachs and to put our hands behind our necks and to start clapping. And our faces were buried in the grass, so we couldn't see (10)anything. And this is how we started clapping our hands. I couldn't see everyone, but I assumed that everybody did the same. And they told us to say, "Long live the king. Long live Serbia." (15)In the meantime, while we were lying on the meadow in the grass, I don't know whether we were clapping our hands all the time or not, shooting could be heard. I don't know what was happening, but after we had been told to get up and to have a rest, at that (20)time it was getting dark. The visibility was still good, but it might have been half past seven or 8.00 in the evening. At that point, I could see a man shooting from a window of a house. He was most probably one of (25)the Bosnian Serb soldiers. He had taken his rifle and

• Page 2878 • {61/122}

(1)opened fire. I think that he was killing people, but I didn't see anybody wounded after that. My uncle who was with me told me that one man who was sitting in front of us was missing. And (5)there's something else that I forgot to tell you. It looked as if someone was walking on our backs. At one point I felt somebody step on my leg. Before we laid down, I saw that there were some soldiers sitting at the balcony of the house below (10)the road. I couldn't tell you the number of them, but I know that they were there sitting on the balcony. We saw trucks after we had got up going in the direction of Bratunac, maybe five or six of them; again, I cannot be more precise. But I remember the (15)letters "Tuzla Transport" that were written on one of the trucks on a canvas of a truck. It probably referred to the name of a company. And people ran up to the trucks. Those were very large trucks. I cannot tell you how big they (20)were, but they were probably the largest trucks I had ever seen. All I know was that there were a number, a great number of people on those trucks. And I boarded one of -- I boarded the last truck.

• Q.: Now, Witness, you've said in your testimony (25)that people ran up to the trucks. You mean that the

• Page 2879 • {62/122}

(1)people in the meadow, the Muslim men in the meadow which included yourself got onto those trucks?

• A.: Yes, yes. That's what I mean. I was on the last truck and the trucks were covered with canvas. (5)And we would step into the back part of the truck, the rear part of the truck, which was open because the canvas was up at the back of the truck. I don't know how I managed to get in. I just remember grabbing, taking hold of the back part of the (10)truck, but I kept falling off and the men helped me in. I don't know finally how I managed to get in. All I know was that the truck was completely full. And somebody said that there was no more room for anybody else but they kept pushing people into the (15)trucks so they were completely crowded and people were standing next to one another. According to my estimate, there was between 100 and 200 people on a truck, I cannot tell you the exact number, but this is my estimate. I don't know (20)whether all of the trucks -- actually, I don't know whether all of the people had boarded those trucks. We were told not to try to jump out of the truck and that we would be followed by a Golf. I think it was the police Golf that had arrived previously to (25)the place where we were.

• Page 2880 • {63/122}

(1) • Q.: Witness, first of all, who told you to get onto the trucks?

• A.: Somebody told us. I don't know exactly who it was. It may have been the same soldier I referred (5)to. He may have been there. Maybe it was him who spoke, but I wasn't paying any attention. Maybe it was him or somebody else. We were told to do so, and I ran together with other people with my head bent down, and I wasn't interested, very much, in what was going on.

(10) • Q.: Who told you not to try and escape, not to try and jump out of the trucks?

• A.: Somebody did. I don't know who it was.

• Q.: Now, after the trucks were filled to capacity, what happened to you next?

(15) • A.: The trucks set off in the direction of Bratunac. They were driving at a rather high speed. We were uncomfortable, people kept falling on one another. It was chaos. The rear part of the truck was open. The canvas was up, but not the sides of the (20)truck as it had been when we started. When we came to Bratunac, at least I assumed that it was when we arrived in Bratunac because I saw lights coming from the apartments, so I presume it was Bratunac, the truck stopped somewhere in the town. (25)People were asking for water, shouting,

• Page 2881 • {64/122}

(1)calling out, "Give us some water." And we were sort of lying, leaning next to each other and my body was going numb. I couldn't feel anything anymore. When people would ask for water, somebody, (5)probably one of the soldiers, but it was dark and I couldn't see, would hit -- would bang on the truck from the outside, probably with a rifle butt saying, "What do you want balijas?" And then they would curse our balija mother, and I don't know what else. I didn't (10)observe everything. We spent the night on the truck. I think I fell asleep at one point. I cannot remember it now, whether I actually slept. I know that people were pushing one another, that it was very crowded. (15)And then in the morning, the trucks continued through the town. So as I told you, I was on the last truck and I could see people watching from their flats, and one could see it from the back side.

• Q.: Witness, you said that morning had come. Can (20)you tell the Judges, if you remember what date this was? You explained to them that you were captured by the Serbs on the 13th, you got on the trucks on the 13th of July. This would be the 14th of July of 1995, would it?

(25) • A.: Yes, it was on the 14th of July around 7.00

• Page 2882 • {65/122}

(1)in the morning. The trucks left, I don't know in which direction, but some of the people who were on the truck said that they had seen an UNPROFOR personnel carrier. They said that somebody had passed by, but I didn't see (5)anything. They probably talked about the possibility of them saving us or something to that effect. The trucks came to a halt somewhere outside Bratunac, not far from the town. But I don't know how long we had been (10)travelling, but it was in the outskirts of the town. And we stayed there for a while. While we were passing through the town, I could see that there were about five or six trucks, or maybe it was at one of the turning points that I (15)managed to see that, but I don't remember that very clearly. So when the trucks came to a halt outside Bratunac, I don't remember exactly, but they may have said that we would be there until 10.00, that we would (20)stay there until 10.00. And maybe this is what happened. Maybe we stayed until 10.00 or maybe 11.00. I don't know. Again people were asking for water. I was asking for water too. I was thirsty as well. And I (25)think that somebody brought some water. I don't know

• Page 2883 • {66/122}

(1)who it was. Maybe a soldier or somebody else. He brought a five-litre jerrycan with water, or a bottle of water. I don't know exactly what kind of container it was, but it was water. And somebody, a man from the (5)truck, stood up and he would pour a drop or two of water into everybody's mouth. I did the same. I stood up and opened my mouth to get this drop of water. At one point I stood up. I don't know why I did so, but there was a bus full of people behind the (10)truck. I don't know whether the bus was carrying women or children or some other people, but I know that it was full of people. It was completely crowded. I don't know why I stood up at that point, but I looked outside and the driver from the bus motioned to me with (15)his hand to sit down. He seemed very angry and he had a rifle next to him. I think it was -- the rifle was placed against the windshield. I don't know what kind of rifle it was, but it was a rifle, and I understood him to mean that I would be killed if I stand up, that (20)I should not look out. We were in an inhabited area and I managed to see, perhaps through the canvas, that there were people around in the area, that there were children riding bicycles, that there were women. And after the truck (25)had continued its journey, we were told that the back

• Page 2884 • {67/122}

(1)part of the canvas would be pulled down for our safety. And that's what they did. At that moment I was next to the side of the truck, and there must have been a hole in the canvas, (5)so I was able to see where we were going. I was able to take a peek from time to time and see where we were going. And I could also breathe, thanks to that, because the atmosphere in the truck was terrible. It was unbearable. It was so hot that there was no oxygen (10)left. I remember that the truck was going in the direction of Konjevic Polje. This is actually what I saw, what I realised later on. And the bus carrying people must have hit something. All I could see was (15)that the front part of the bus, of the bus window, was broken. I don't know whether all of them continued their journey. I don't know exactly what happened and why it happened. So we passed through Konjevic Polje. I'm (20)familiar with the area, so I was able to recognise it. And the truck turned off towards -- turned right, in the direction of Zvornik. It travelled through Drinjaca, through Zvornik, and I saw some people swimming under the bridge in the Drina River. There (25)were people passing by the truck, walking down the

• Page 2885 • {68/122}

(1)street. Some of them would curse our balija mothers. I couldn't see them. I didn't know what they looked like, but I would hear them from time to time or see them when I would be out. (5)So we passed through Zvornik and reached Karakaj. I know that there was a road that went on towards Bijeljina and Tuzla, and I assumed, and people talked among themselves, that we would probably be taken to a camp in Bijeljina or in Batkovic. Because (10)if they had wanted to kill people, they wouldn't have transported them. This was our assumption and this is what people were thinking at the time. It seemed logical. But at one point the truck turned towards (15)Tuzla probably, and people were saying -- people were talking, and they became "happy" and "excited," in quotation marks, because they thought that we were going to Tuzla, that we would be exchanged or released. However, at one point the truck slowed down (20)and it turned right, and I don't know where we were. It came to a halt at some location. I wasn't watching at that point. I was trying to get some air because it was so stifling. We were very thirsty. Many people fainted. Someone may even have died. I couldn't tell (25)you anything about that.

• Page 2886 • {69/122}

(1)But after approximately one hour they opened the rear side of the truck --

• Q.: Witness, if you could just pause there for a moment. Now, you explained to the Judges that on the (5)14th of July the truck eventually left Bratunac and went north towards Zvornik and Karakaj. Do you remember approximately what time the bus left the outskirts of Bratunac?

• A.: I think I have already said. It was about (10)10.00 or 11.00, after having been stationed for about two hours or three hours.

• Q.: Can you show the Judges on the map in front of you the route that you believe you took between Bratunac and the place, the location that you (15)eventually ended up in? And I know towards the end of your journey you were not aware of where you were.

MR. CAYLEY: If the map could be moved up.

• A.: Could you please spread it open for me?

MR. CAYLEY: If the map could be moved up.

(20) • A.: From Bratunac I believe -- I can show you -- I cannot show you the portion of the road after Zvornik, because Zvornik is not on the map. So I think that we took this road from Bratunac [indicates], and after Sandici -- I'm sure that we went along this (25)road. And this one here, this is where we turned right

• Page 2887 • {70/122}

(1) [indicates], and then continued up to the Drinjaca River. The truck crossed the bridge and continued along the Drina River, passed through Zvornik, and then in Karakaj it turned -- I don't know what road it was, (5)but I think that it was in the direction of Tuzla, most probably here [indicates], and this is where we turned again, at this spot [indicates]

MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness indicated that after Karakaj the bus turned (10)left, and he believes stopped at a location called Petkovci.

• A.: Just a moment, please. I told you I knew the road up to Karakaj, and I think that we went along this road from Karakaj and that we turned right at one point (15)and we passed by a structure, a building. I don't know which building it was. This is what I can indicate here.

• Q.: Now, after you -- after the truck stopped, and I know at this point you weren't exactly sure where (20)you were, because you didn't know the area, how long did you remain on the truck?

• A.: I think that we remained there for about one hour. I think it was in the afternoon. People were crying out, shouting. They wanted to get out, get off (25)the truck. "Let us outside. We're thirsty." They

• Page 2888 • {71/122}

(1)were saying all kinds of things, but I cannot remember now. It was horrible. People even drank their own urine from their genitals. When they opened the truck, there were two or (5)three soldiers there, probably Bosnian Serb soldiers. They told us to get out. One of the soldiers told us to get out. And then somebody said, "See, balijas, we're driving you around, and you, you wouldn't even give us a lift."

(10) • Q.: Witness, what time, approximately, was it that you got off the truck?

• A.: It was in the afternoon hours. I don't know exactly what time it was. Maybe 3.00 or 4.00 in the afternoon.

(15) • Q.: Do you recall how the Bosnian Serb soldiers were dressed that you saw at the location where you got off the truck?

• A.: They were dressed in the same or similar uniforms. They were camouflage uniforms, brown, olive, (20)drab, green in colour.

MR. CAYLEY: If we could have Prosecutor's Exhibit 21/4, please.

• Q.: While we're waiting for that exhibit, Witness, can you explain to the Judges what happened to (25)you after you got off the truck?

• Page 2889 • {72/122}

(1) • A.: As we were getting off the truck people had to step on each other. I saw a relative of mine, an acquaintance, on whom people had to step. I don't know whether he was still conscious, but people were walking (5)on top of him, because he couldn't stand up. But later on I saw him in the classroom. He was there. I don't know whether it was really a classroom. I don't know what kind of building it was, actually. So after we got off the truck, we went up the (10)stairs and into a school building. Actually, at that point I didn't know it was a school. It was a kind of structure.

• Q.: Witness, this photograph that you see in front of you, can you explain to the Judges what this (15)location is? Is this where the truck stopped?

• A.: Yes, this is where the truck stopped. It stopped above the stairs, here. You cannot see it on the photograph. A little further than this. I forgot to tell you: Through the hole in (20)the canvas I could see one or two buses and a truck there that were empty. This is what I saw. But I don't know how many of them there were. There may have been more on the other side, but I don't remember, because after I got out I didn't watch. (25)And then two or three soldiers were standing

• Page 2890 • {73/122}

(1)at the back of the truck while we were getting off. One of them was standing in front of the building, in front of a school -- I don't know whether it was a school at that time. One of them was standing here
(5) [indicates], near the stairs, and we walked in a line. And at the entrance to the school this soldier took his rifle by the barrel and he would hit every man with his rifle butt on his back. But people were getting in very fast, so he didn't manage to hit them all. So the (10)man who was standing here stopped the people, and he would send them one by one so that they could be beaten up later on. They were hit once or twice or maybe several times.

• Q.: Witness, the truck was parked on an area of (15)ground that is to the left of this photograph. It's outside the photograph, isn't it, the place where the truck stopped?

• A.: Yes.

• Q.: And the rear of the truck was facing the (20)stairs that are seen in the photograph on the left-hand side, going down towards the school?

• A.: Yes. The truck was actually parallel with the school. The back part was just next to the steps where we got off.

(25) • Q.: And can you recall, if you can, the -- was it

• Page 2891 • {74/122}

(1)the first step down on which the first Bosnian soldier was standing, as one looks at the steps going down towards the school?

• A.: The two or three soldiers. There may have (5)been more, but in front of the truck there were two or three soldiers. I don't know exactly whether they were right here, but they were anyway on the part that is flat [indicates] I don't know whether anyone was standing here [indicates], but I remember this one well (10)who stood halfway down the steps. And when my turn came, when I reached this man -- actually, there was the man in front of me, a man who was captured. I don't know who he was. And he was waiting for his turn to come to receive a blow. (15)And the Bosnian Serb soldier asked him, "Do you know me?" And the man said, "Yes, I know you, brother." He said "brother." I don't know why. And the Serb soldier answered, "Who do you know?" He asked the man, "Who do you know," as if he didn't want him to know (20)him. And as he was holding a gun -- I think it was one with a clip, a large clip. I don't know whether it was an automatic rifle, but something like that. I think all the soldiers had automatic rifles. I think so. Machine-guns or automatic rifles. (25)And when the man said he knew him, the Serb

• Page 2892 • {75/122}

(1)soldier hit him with his rifle. He hit him with the front part of the rifle, in his ribs, in his stomach. The man curled up, or rather he screamed, but the man who was in front of the door, I don't know whether he (5)approached him, but as he bent down, as this man bent down, this other one hit him with his rifle butt across the back, once or twice; I don't know. But when he saw that there was no point, that he would continue to be beaten, he sort of stood up and (10)entered the school. I don't know whether they broke him anything. I got in without a blow. I don't know why they didn't hit me. Perhaps they were confused over this man who went in front. He got in, anyway. (15)Whether the man in front of the door, the one who was doing the beating, moved away, I don't know. I just know that they didn't hit me, perhaps because I looked very childish. I was young. I don't know why. And when we entered the school, the column (20)continued; not really a column, but as one was hit, he would enter. There was some space between each man. There were soldiers inside, but I don't know how many. And one of them asked, "Whose land is this?" And he provided the answer himself: "This is Serb land. It (25)always was and will be." And he said, "Follow me,

• Page 2893 • {76/122}

(1)balija -- repeat after me," and we had to repeat after him: "This is Serb land. It always was and will be."

• Q.: Witness, if you could pause there for a moment.

(5) MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I don't know whether you feel this is an appropriate time for a break. I think we've been going for nearly an hour and a quarter.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes, (10)Mr. Cayley. Thank you very much for drawing our attention to this. We're going to have a break, not quite half an hour, but 25 minutes and then we'll continue.

--- Recess taken at 12.37 p.m.

(15) --- On resuming at 1.11 p.m.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] I apologise, Mr. Cayley. We took a little longer for the break, but before beginning, perhaps we need to re-examine our working hours a little. I don't know (20)whether you can answer this question. We have decided to have a Status Conference at about quarter past two. Nevertheless, I examined what we could discuss, and I really think that we would go on until after 3.00 and this would, of course, cause (25)inconvenience with the interpreters and also the

• Page 2894 • {77/122}

(1)meetings that the Judges have in the course of the afternoon. So I'd like to ask you, is this the last witness you have or do you have another witness.

(5) MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, if your --

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Excuse me for interrupting you. For this week, I mean.

MR. CAYLEY: No, Mr. President, we do have two more witnesses which we believe that we could get (10)through tomorrow. I cannot guarantee that, but that certainly is our aim. I know you expressed the view that you didn't wish witnesses to be brought here, part heard and then sent back. If we were only able to complete one, an (15)additional one witness, I think we would not call the third witness, but we can certainly discuss that tomorrow.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] What I would suggest, therefore, I think the question of (20)witnesses is more important than the Status Conference. So what we are going to try to do is to proceed as quickly as possible. I'm placing this before you for your consideration, both the Prosecution and the Defence and my colleague Judges to go directly (25)to questions and to save time so as to avoid a witness

• Page 2895 • {78/122}

(1)who is here now having to come back a month and a half later. I think we all understand what that can mean from every possible standpoint. Therefore, we have (5)this witness and two more. Therefore, what we're going to try to do is to do our very best to finish with the testimony. If tomorrow we have a little time left, I would at least like to ask you a few questions so you (10)can think about them without going into any analyses but simply to convey to you the concerns of the Chamber regarding the status of the case. And when we resume our hearings, we will do so after the parties have had a chance to reflect about them and discuss these (15)matters. So what I am suggesting now, and when I mentioned the small Status Conference tomorrow, I mean that we must never overstep the deadline of 3.00. Mr. Dubuisson, can we plan that for tomorrow (20)to work until 3.00, perhaps. THE REGISTRAR [Int.] No problem, Your Honour.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] In that case, thank you very much. (25)So what I'm asking now is to proceed as

• Page 2896 • {79/122}

(1)quickly as possible to save as much time as possible and tomorrow, if we have a chance, we will have a very small Status Conference. Not the one we wanted to have, but simply to list the questions that we have to (5)address. I think it is important for you before we adjourn to know the question that you have to think over. I think it was important for me to say this in the interest of management. (10)Thank you very much, please proceed.

MR. CAYLEY: Yes, Mr. President. In respect of this witness, Witness O, we will certainly finish him today. Now, Mr. President, may I proceed with the (15)witness?

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Yes.

MR. CAYLEY:

• Q.: Now, Witness, prior to the break, you had explained to the Judges that as you went into this (20)building, soldiers, Bosnian Serb soldiers cried, "This is Serbian country; always was and always will be," and that you also were required to say this. And you were addressed as "balijas" by these Bosnian Serb soldiers. (25)If you know, can you explain to the Judges

• Page 2897 • {80/122}

(1)the meaning of balija?

• A.: I think at least I know. I think it's a derogatory name for Bosnian Muslims. For Turks, in fact, but we're not Turks. We're a Slavic people of (5)Muslim faith. So it's a derogatory term for Muslims.

MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 21/5 and 21/6. If 21/5 could be placed on the ELMO.

• Q.: Can you explain to the Judges this photograph (10)that's in front of you?

• A.: Yes. When we entered the school here, we went this way [indicates], and then we turned right, up the steps. Actually, the column went that way, and that's where we had to shout what we were told. (15)I forgot to mention also their question was: "Who does Srebrenica belong to?" And then the soldiers themselves said, "Srebrenica was always Serb. It always was, and always will be Serb."

MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the (20)witness is indicating on Prosecutor's Exhibit 21/5 that the column of Muslim men went up the staircase indicated in that photograph to the first floor?

• A.: Yes.

MR. CAYLEY: And now if the witness could be (25)shown Exhibit 21/6.

• Page 2898 • {81/122}

(1) • Q.: Witness, can you explain this photograph to the Judges?

• A.: Yes, we went along this corridor. Actually this group of men, I don't know whether all of them got (5)off the truck. I think it was the last or one but last classroom, I'm not sure.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Cayley, excuse me for interrupting you. Witness, if possible, when you have a pointer (10)on the ELMO, look at the photograph, not the monitor; otherwise you can't point it out to us. If you are speaking without being in touch with the photograph, and if you have a pointer on the photograph, we get a bit confused. So when pointing, (15)please look at the ELMO. If you don't need to use the photograph, remove the pointer.

• A.: I apologise, Mr. President.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Sorry, Mr. Cayley, you may proceed.

(20) MR. CAYLEY:

• Q.: Witness, can you indicate to the Judges the door of the classroom into which you entered?

• A.: We were going along this corridor
[indicates], and I'm not quite sure whether we entered (25)the last or one but last classroom. There were five or

• Page 2899 • {82/122}

(1)six doors leading out from this corridor, I don't know whether there were five or six classrooms. And we could hear people talking inside so I went into the last or one but last. (5)And once I enter the classroom, I'll be able to recognise it, but looking at it this way I'm not sure which one of the two it was.

MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness is indicating on Prosecutor's Exhibit 21/6 that (10)he entered one of the doors which are on the right-hand side of the photograph, and it's either the one furthest in the background on the right-hand side or the next one coming into the foreground from that one. So it's essentially the last two doors on the (15)right-hand side of the photograph looking towards the door at the end of that view.

• Q.: Now, Witness, how full of men was the classroom that you went into?

• A.: The classroom was full. At first, the air (20)was fresh as opposed to the air in the truck. I felt well, as if I was free, compared to the horror in the truck. The classroom was full, it was packed full. In fact, it was perhaps more crowded than the truck. I can't tell you how many people were inside though. (25)So when the classroom was full, the door was

• Page 2900 • {83/122}

(1)closed. People sat on top of one another, some were lying down. In any case, there were a lot of people. I can't tell you the number.

• Q.: Now, you said that there was not enough air (5)in the room. Did you try to open a window?

• A.: Yes. One of the men tried to open a window, but what I must mention first is that a Bosnian Serb soldier came and asked for German marks. Some men said they had already given them to others before. They (10)said, "You must give them up. Those of you who do will be saved." Some people who hid the money gave it up. And after that he left the classroom. And then we ran out of air, so someone tried to open the window. But shooting started, so that the (15)glass was broken. I think it was probably one of the soldiers. So that the window panes were cracked. Not all of them; one, two, or three, though.

• Q.: Now, if the windows were broken, the soldier was firing outside in as somebody tried to open the (20)window; is that right?

• A.: Yes. When someone tried to open the window, one of the Bosnian Serb soldiers started shooting. A man next to me was wounded. I don't know whether it was by the glass or by ammunition, but I know he was (25)wounded in the neck. I don't know whether there were

• Page 2901 • {84/122}

(1)other people wounded, but holes could be seen in the ceiling above the window, as if bullets had hit there. When I looked, I saw it, so I don't know whether those holes were there before, but in any case the window (5)panes did break.

• Q.: Were you still thirsty?

• A.: Yes, very thirsty. We asked for water. Someone communicated with the soldier outside. I heard them talking. I don't know who among the soldiers, nor (10)who among the men, but probably the Bosnian Serb soldier said that bread would be brought in, and water, and after a while somebody did bring it. I don't know who brought it. I know that there was a jerrycan of water and they gave us a drop each, as they did in the (15)truck. I remember opening my mouth and being given a drop of water. It hardly meant anything, because I was so thirsty. In the meantime, people were making a lot of noise, and then that same soldier came in again. I (20)can't remember what he looked like. I think he had dark hair. And he said that we must not make a noise, otherwise we'd be killed. And he pointed his hand at one of the boys, one of the young men, a young man, and he said to him, "You are responsible for this. If they (25)make a noise, I'll kill you." When he left, this young

• Page 2902 • {85/122}

(1)man begged the men to keep quiet, not to make a noise, but the men were simply thirsty.

• Q.: And the young man that the Bosnian Serb soldier pointed at was part of the group of Muslim men (5)in the classroom?

• A.: Yes. Yes.

• Q.: Did there come a time, Witness, when soldiers came to ask for Muslim men from certain geographical locations to come out of the classroom?

(10) • A.: Yes. A soldier came. I can't remember whether it was the same one, but he did -- a soldier did come up and he said: Is there anyone from this location? I'm giving you examples. Cerska. I can't remember the names of all the villages. He may have (15)mentioned three or four or five. But, for instance, from Cerska, from Glogova. And at the end, two men raised their hands and said, "We are from --" I don't know; somewhere, whether it was from Cerska, Glogova, or a third location, because I didn't remember (20)everything. And they went outside. They were taken outside, and I heard blows and moans. They didn't come back. What I forgot to mention was that again it (25)became very stuffy. We couldn't go to the toilet. The

• Page 2903 • {86/122}

(1)room was full of urine. People were drinking urine from the floor. I saw that with my own eyes. They were so thirsty. And then, when darkness fell, from the other (5)classrooms -- I assume it was from the other classrooms, because as I was entering I heard people talking in the other classrooms. Somebody in the corridor was saying something, probably one of the soldiers. He was saying, "Let three balijas come (10)out." Was it three or four or five or two, I can't remember all the numbers. And while the people got down in front of the school, bursts of fire could be heard. And this was repeated every time. When he would say three or four or five men were to come out, (15)they were taken in front of the school and shots were heard. I assume that the shooting was in front of the school, because it was so loud. And they went on like that until perhaps midnight. Perhaps it was midnight. I'm not quite sure. But anyway, it was very late. (20)And then someone came, one of the soldiers came, and said that it was our turn now, that we should come out two by two, allegedly that we would be searched or checked or registered for exchange. I don't know exactly what he said, but something to that (25)effect.

• Page 2904 • {87/122}

(1)And I was wet with urine. I took off my T-shirt and one of the other men gave me a dry one. I put it on. And I asked my uncle, who was with me, whether we should go out together. He said, "No, we (5)won't go out together." So I went out before him, with one of the other men, and after that I never saw him again. When I came out with this other man into the corridor, we were told there were one, two, or three (10)soldiers, maybe more. But I think one of them, who was fair -- he had a camouflage uniform. I can't tell you what colour it was exactly, but I know it was some sort of a camouflage uniform. He wasn't in civilian clothes, at least. He told us to take off -- to strip (15)to the waist, to take off everything up to the waist and to take off our shoes. I didn't have any shoes on; I only had socks on, because I had lost my shoes somewhere in the woods. So I took off my socks as well. (20)First he tied up the man who was next to me, then he tied my hands behind my back. I don't know what he used to tie us up with. It wasn't wire, it wasn't metal. It was some kind of string, but very hard string that was cutting at our skin. But I was (25)lucky that it wasn't -- my hands weren't tied too

• Page 2905 • {88/122}

(1)tight. Perhaps I feigned trying to pull free, but I didn't manage anyway. So he pushed me into another classroom. I can't remember which one it was. But in any case, it (5)was either the classroom next to the one we were in or the second from that door. There were a lot of clothes on the floor in that classroom. I could see it under my feet, even though it was dark. I could feel those clothes. And then roughly, and all this is very (10)approximate, when they tied up everyone -- I don't know whether it was everyone -- one of the Bosnian Serb soldiers said that we should go out, and a column started. Actually, men filed past one after another. I sort of kept to the middle, maybe out of (15)fear, maybe just spontaneously. I don't know how. I was always somewhere in the middle, though of course we weren't eager to get out first. What I forgot to say was while we were in the classroom, when they were shooting, the men were saying (20)that we should run out all together and then someone would have a chance to survive. But nobody wanted to get killed. And others were saying that they weren't killing people, that there was the Red Cross or something. (25)So shall I go back to where I stopped? We

• Page 2906 • {89/122}

(1)were getting out. I was somewhere in the middle, down the steps. I don't know how many soldiers were in the corridor. When I left the school, it was dark, but I could still decipher -- if I can show you on the (5)picture what I saw in front of the school.

MR. CAYLEY: That's Exhibit 21/4. Let the record show the witness is now indicating on Prosecutor's Exhibit 21/4.

• A.: Yes. It was roughly here [indicates] I say (10)"roughly" because I couldn't see clearly. But I was barefoot and I felt that there was something sticky underneath my feet. I assumed it was blood, but it was dark. And there was a very large pile here. I wasn't watching closely. I was walking with my head bent (15)down. And we had at that time realised where we were going. After that we got on the truck. I don't know whether everybody got on the truck, but many people went on board.

(20) • Q.: Witness, if you could wait there one moment, and can you place your pointer where you said that it was a very large pile, and keep it there.

• A.: Yes. It was here, but you cannot see it very clearly on the photograph [indicates] Not everything (25)is in the photograph. It was here [indicates] I must

• Page 2907 • {90/122}

(1)have passed by along this way [indicates] Those are the moments that I don't remember very clearly, but I know it was a very large pile.

• Q.: Witness, if you could wait there one moment.

(5) MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness is indicating on that exhibit a point immediately in front of the doors into the school, which are slightly in shadow.

• A.: Maybe even -- excuse me. Maybe further to (10)the right [indicates], but it cannot be seen on the photograph.

• Q.: What did you think this pile was that you saw?

• A.: I thought that those were killed people, (15)because throughout that time while we were in the classroom, there was shooting going on, so I thought that those must have been the people who had been killed, people from other classrooms. I couldn't see them, but I had heard noise. I could hear people (20)talk. They may have transported them somewhere. They may have killed them. But I assumed that those were the people, the killed people.

• Q.: Remember, Witness, we will finish you today, but speak slowly so that the interpreters can follow (25)what you're saying.

• Page 2908 • {91/122}

(1)Now, immediately you left the school. Immediately you left the school. Where did you go after that?

• A.: A truck was stationed there, almost at the (5)same spot, perhaps a little further left, towards the flat part of the ground, and it was facing the same direction where we had come from. The entrance, the door, was here, but something, a kind of plank, was put there, so we used that plank to climb aboard. I don't (10)know how large the truck was. It was a big one. I don't know how big it was. I don't know if it was the same one. I couldn't tell you that. But once the truck was full, the sides of the truck were closed. There was no canvas on that part, (15)at the rear, but it was on the other part of the truck. And somebody, probably a Bosnian Serb soldier, said that we should sit down. But we simply couldn't sit down, because we were crowded. We were standing next to one another like sardines. (20)Then a shot could be heard. I don't know whether it was a burst of gunfire or a single bullet, but we heard a shot and somebody screamed on the truck. Maybe somebody got wounded. I don't know who it was who shouted. Anyway, there was shooting next to (25)the truck and somebody on the truck was screaming, as

• Page 2909 • {92/122}

(1)if he had been wounded. And at that moment we fell down on top of one another. And the situation was chaotic. We were all tied up. We couldn't hold ourselves, and our bodies (5)kept pushing against the sides of the truck. I managed to remain somewhere near the side of the truck, but towards the mid-part of the truck, and I was on my knees. And I was squeezed by other people, and at that moment the truck started out and it travelled for about (10)five or ten minutes. I cannot tell you for how long. It may have seemed long. But for a while we travelled along the asphalt road. The ride was not bumpy. And at one point it turned onto a macadam road and it stopped (15)after maybe five or ten minutes, approximately. I recognised a teacher of mine behind me. I don't know how I managed to recognise him, because it was dark, but I just recognised him and I said, "Is that you, sir?" And he said, "Yes, it's me." And he (20)asked me who I was, but I didn't reply. This all took place while the truck was moving, and then it stopped and we could hear shots. We could hear something hitting, tapping on the truck, and I think it was -- it sounded like rain, but it may (25)have been bursts of gunfire. I don't know. Later it

• Page 2910 • {93/122}

(1)turned out that those were gravels that were caused to fly by gunfire. And at one point somebody opened one side of the truck. I stood up. I don't know how I managed to (5)stand up. I was tied up. But somehow I stood up. It's very hard for me to remember all the details from that time. And they wanted five balijas to come out, so some people went out. At that point I was standing and I could see that there were maybe two or three (10)soldiers. For sure there were more than one, but I don't know how many. So when the people got out -- I don't know where exactly it was, where they stopped and when they got out -- the firing started, and then they would call (15)out people in groups of five. There was a man who was behind me and whom I knew. He managed to untie his hands, and he asked me if I wanted him to untie my hands. And I said, "No. No, I don't want that, because I'm going to be killed. I don't want it." (20)So after the next five had been called out, he jumped out. He pushed aside the two soldiers with his hands and he started to run. He ran into the dark and I couldn't see where he was going. I know that they were shooting after him. I don't know whether the (25)soldiers were shooting or not. All I know is that the

• Page 2911 • {94/122}

(1)man is no longer alive. He didn't make it out. I know that he had no place to run, no way to escape. And after that people stopped getting out. People didn't -- people no longer wanted to get out. (5)We were very thirsty. And one of the captives, one of the people on the truck, started to shout, started to yell. He may have recognised a soldier there, and he spoke to him and he said, "I took care of you and your mother, Stana, and now you're killing these innocent (10)people." I believe that the name he mentioned was Stana, but I cannot be a hundred per cent sure. Some people shouted, "Give us some water first and then kill us." I was really sorry that I would die thirsty, and I was trying to hide amongst the (15)people as long as I could, like everybody else. I just wanted to live for another second or two. And when it was my turn, I jumped out with what I believe were four other people. I could feel the gravel beneath my feet. It hurt. And we were told to find a place for (20)us. We went to the left side of the truck. Somebody must have indicated to us the way. I was walking with my head bent down and I wasn't feeling anything. I know that I didn't feel anything. I don't think I was afraid. I had made up my (25)mind. I didn't understand why one of the soldiers had

• Page 2912 • {95/122}

(1)told us to find a place, but when I approached the area, when we were on the right-hand side of the truck, I saw rows of killed people. It looked like they had been lined up one row after the other. I couldn't see (5)the end of it, but I could somehow sense it, although it was dark. So when I reached my spot, at that point we were watching those dead people. You could tell that those were dead people there. There were several Serb (10)soldiers there. I don't know how many there were, five or ten, but they were standing behind our backs. But it all happened very quickly, in a matter of seconds. And then I thought that I would die very fast, that I would not suffer. And I just thought that (15)my mother would never know where I had ended up. This is what I was thinking as I was getting out of the truck. And when we reached the spot, somebody said, "Lie down." And when we started to fall down to the front, they were behind our backs, the shooting (20)started. I fell down, and I don't know what happened then. I wasn't thinking. It wasn't my idea to fall down first and to survive like this, I just thought it was the end. (25)I don't know whether I lost consciousness at

• Page 2913 • {96/122}

(1)that point, maybe I was still conscious, but I don't remember that moment precisely. All I know is that while I was lying down, I felt pain in the right side of my chest. I felt pain on the right side, but I (5)didn't know where I had been wounded, and I felt pain in my right arm. And I suffered. But I kept lying like that on my stomach with my head turned to the right. There was a man next to me who was moaning a (10)lot. I don't know how he had been hit, maybe he was almost dead. I don't know who it was. All I could hear was his moans. I suffered too, but I didn't shout. I didn't cry out. I didn't know how seriously I had been wounded. I was waiting for another bullet (15)to come and hit me and I was waiting to die. And then after they had brought another group of, again, probably five people, I think that they were moving from the left to the right, and this is at least what I could observe at that point. There were (20)approximately five people. And then one of the soldiers said to an elderly man who had been sitting with me in the classroom, I assume he was addressing him, he told him to say, "Allah-u-ekber". I assumed it was an elderly (25)man. I could tell it by his voice.

• Page 2914 • {97/122}

(1)And the bursts of gunfire continued and the people fell down. I don't know how long it took. They kept bringing people up. I remember that elderly man, I assumed that he was an old man. (5)And after that finished, I don't know how long it lasted; maybe one hour, or maybe ten minutes. But it all, to me, it all looked very long. The next group who was -- that was probably taken out after me was also shot at. And at that (10)point, I felt a sudden sharp pain in my left leg. I thought that a bullet had hit me in my left foot. And I thought that bullets were hitting the gravel around me. They were firing in bursts of gunfire, and I was simply expecting the next bullet to come and hit me. (15)But the gravel kept falling on me. I don't know how long it took them. I don't know how many rows of people there were left. But when they had finished, they laughed. They said, "Well, your government will be exchanging (20)you even if you're dead." They would take a look at someone and they would make jokes, "Look at this guy, he looks like a cabbage." I don't know what else they were saying. And once they had finished, somebody said (25)that all the dead should be inspected. I think that

• Page 2915 • {98/122}

(1)the name mentioned was Jovo. It was told that all the dead should be inspected, and they were told that if they find a warm body, they should fire one more bullet into their head. (5)So this man, I don't know whether it was Jovo or somebody else, he said, "I think that all the motherfuckers are dead." So I was thinking that maybe I wanted to call them to finish me off because I was suffering a lot. (10)And I thought maybe if I don't die here, I will survive and then maybe I will take -- I will be taken away alive and that my suffering will only be prolonged. So while I was lying, at one point, and I kept silent all the time, I could see a military boot (15)stomping next to my face. And I kept watching, I didn't close my eyes. But the man stepped over me, it was a soldier, and he fired into the head of a man who was next to me. And at that moment, I closed my eyes and I (20)was hit in my right shoulder. I don't know what it was. I don't know whether it was a kind of fragmentation bullet or just gravel, but I don't think so, that it would have been gravel. Because I still have metal particles in my right arm, in my right (25)chest, and also in my foot.

• Page 2916 • {99/122}

(1)So after I'd been hit in my shoulder, I said to myself, "I've been wounded all over. How come I'm not dying?" I don't know where the soldier went, but they (5)kept laughing. From time to time, a shot would be heard. They were killing people. And they mentioned something, they said something about Haris Silajdzic and our government, they said, "You would be exchanged by your government," and something to that effect. (10)And after they had finished the job, again I thought that I should call out for help. I was still very thirsty. But I was sort of between life and death. I didn't know whether I wanted to live or to die anymore. (15)I decided not to call out for them to shoot and kill me, but I was sort of praying to God that they'd come and kill me. But I decided not to call them and I was waiting to die. When they had finished and when the engine of (20)the truck had started, they left. I don't know whether they left a guard behind or someone. But I kept lying as I was, and I changed the position of my head. I turned left. When I -- afterwards when I had reached the Dam, I saw a light. I don't know actually know (25)whether it was actually a dam, but it was a kind of a

• Page 2917 • {100/122}

(1)slope or a hill, but I wasn't aware of what it was, actually. So I turned my head, and I wasn't really afraid. I didn't know whether there were any soldiers (5)there or not. I wasn't really thinking of what I should do. I simply stood there, remained there lying. I was still tied up. But it's possible that I could see a little better at that point. My eyes must have become accustomed to the dark after I had got off (10)the truck. There were many people killed. I don't know how many, but a lot. At one point I raised my head and I saw that maybe one or two rows in front of me, somebody was moving. He was maybe two or three metres (15)away from me. And I could tell he was moving and I asked, "Are you alive?" I whispered to him. And he said, "I'm alive. Come here and untie me, please." And I said, "I cannot. I'm wounded." But he kept calling me. And maybe, maybe one (20)hour later, maybe 10 minutes later or 15 minutes later but it seemed rather long to me, I started turning around a little bit. This may have given me some strength, some force, and I realised that I could, perhaps, leave. That I could perhaps walk. (25)And I kept rolling over the bodies. I did it

• Page 2918 • {101/122}

(1)several times until I reached the man who was still alive. So I managed to roll up to his mouth. He was squeezed by the bodies. I know that he couldn't stand up. (5)He didn't actually cut the string, but he was a very strong man and he cut it with his teeth. And I told you that it had been a rather strong, resistant kind of string which the soldier used to tie up my hands.

(10) • Q.: Witness, I'm sorry to interrupt you at this point in your testimony. But can you ensure that you don't name the man who went up to help. Can you not name him?

• A.: I won't.

(15) • Q.: Please continue, I'm sorry.

• A.: So I got on to my knees and I tried to untie him with my hands. Even though my hand was very painful, I could still manage. So I assumed that I wasn't hit in the bone. I kept thinking about all (20)these things. And I asked him whether he had been wounded and he said, "Yes, in the head." I continued untying him with my teeth, trying to bite through that string, each strand of the string. And this went on for some time. He was a big (25)man, a strong man. Very strong.

• Page 2919 • {102/122}

(1)And I managed to untie two of the strands or my -- my hands were cut by this string, and in the meantime, we saw lights, a vehicle was coming towards us. I don't know whether it was going along the same (5)road, but the lights were turned towards us. And I said, "A truck is coming." I assumed it was a truck, maybe it wasn't. And he kept insisting that I should go on untying him because he was afraid I would leave him, and he wanted to escape because he was (10)probably only lightly wounded in the head, I saw that later. And I continued and the truck really did get close to us. It came closer and closer. I said, "Really, there is a truck approaching." And I don't know how I helped him or (15)whether he did it on his own, but somehow he managed to get up, though he was still tied up, and he started walking across the bodies. I don't know where. I crawled after him on my hands and knees. I couldn't stand up. My leg was hurting me very badly. (20)And as we went over the bodies, I couldn't see who it was, but it was a terrible sight. Somebody had been hit in the head, and the inside had spilled over. I didn't see anyone alive. And when I had passed over those bodies, I (25)don't know for how long I crawled over those bodies,

• Page 2920 • {103/122}

(1)but when I came to the end of the bodies, I crawled down some rocks. If I can show you that. Can I show you?

• Q.: Witness, if you could pause there for a (5)moment?

MR. CAYLEY: And if the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 22/3.

• Q.: And in order to finish this today, we'll try to move through this quite quickly. (10)Now first of all, if you could answer a question for me, Witness. Is this the location where the execution took place?

• A.: Yes, it is. I recognised it the next day after the execution that that was 100 per cent that (15)place. I am quite convinced of that.

MR. CAYLEY: And let the record show that the witness has identified Prosecutor's Exhibit 22/3.

MR. CAYLEY: Now, if the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 22/5.

(20) • Q.: Because, Witness, wait one moment, because 22/5 you will be able to explain to the Judges the location of where you escaped from.

• A.: Roughly from somewhere here [indicates] We were shot at at our backs towards the Dam. Of course I (25)didn't know it was a dam then. Then we took this route

• Page 2921 • {104/122}

(1)and went this way, but it was green then. And somewhere down there, we entered a concrete ditch.

MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness is indicating on Prosecutor's Exhibit 22/5 that (5)he and the other individual who escaped moved from the left hand -- mid left-hand side of this photograph to the right-hand side of this photograph off the embankment of the Dam and into some woods that he said were greener at the time. It was summer, and they are (10)on the right-hand side of the photograph.

• A.: So about eight or ten metres down the canal
[indicates] The man who was with me went in front of me. I don't know how I got down, but I know that I was in the ditch. (15)The man told me his name. We didn't know each other. I told him mine. We weren't so afraid because there were bushes but I was in great pain. I was suffering very badly. I was naked to the waist down and barefooted. The man had a T-shirt on, a green (20)one, and a vest, an undervest. He took it off and tore it up and bandaged my wounds. When he bandaged me, I fell asleep on his lap because I hadn't slept for a long time. I may have slept on the truck, but it's not really sleep.

(25) • Q.: Witness, if I could ask you one question.

• Page 2922 • {105/122}

(1)The execution itself, did that take place in the early hours of the 15th of July of 1995 as far as you can recall?

• A.: Would you repeat the question, please?

(5) • Q.: The execution, did it take place in the early morning hours of the 15th of July of 1995?

• A.: I don't know whether it was the 15th of July, but it was about midnight. It may have been after midnight, 1.00 or 2.00, but I don't know exactly.

(10) • Q.: Now, the last part of your testimony we'll move through very quickly so I would just ask you some questions. Did there come a time when you moved away from this location near the Dam and, in fact, you (15)climbed up some hills so that you had a view of the Dam beneath you?

• A.: Yes, we stayed there until the morning. Actually, he woke me up and asked me where shall we go. I said, "I don't know." But since there was a (20)forest to the right of the ditch, we entered the forest. He went first. There were a lot of thorns. I crawled after him. He picked mushrooms and he found a small apple. We were very thirsty, but there was no water in the ditch where we had been. (25)And walking through the forest, we reached

• Page 2923 • {106/122}

(1)the top of a hill. Can I show it to you on the photograph? We saw a guard walking along some rocks. We didn't know it was a dam. He was walking there and there was a machine. I think it was a machine on the (5)Dam.

• Q.: Witness, if you could wait one moment.

MR. CAYLEY: If the witness could be shown Prosecutor's Exhibit 126.

• Q.: The other man that was with you, would you (10)have survived if it hadn't been for him, Witness?

• A.: No, no, I wouldn't have survived. That's for sure.

• Q.: Now, this is a view looking down.

• A.: We went from the ditch over here [indicates] (15)into the woods and we climbed up here. And we saw a guard with a rifle walking along the Dam. Not here, but up there [indicates]

MR. CAYLEY: Let the record show that the witness is indicating that he and his colleague climbed (20)a hill which can be seen as a wooded area in the rear area of the photograph.

• Q.: Now, Witness, you shaded in that square for me last night on another photograph. It's a square with hatched markings across it. Can you explain to (25)the Judges what that is?

• Page 2924 • {107/122}

(1) • A.: I'm sorry. So we didn't see this part from the woods [indicates], but we saw the upper part of the Dam, I call it a "dam". I didn't see the water, I just saw the guard. And we didn't see the bodies here. We (5)decided to go back because we were surrounded by villages everywhere. So we came back down the hill into the ditch. And the man who was with me, he went to bring me water. I don't know where he went. But I stayed (10)behind in the wood, and he didn't come back for a long time. I thought perhaps he had left. After a few minutes, perhaps it was minutes, ten, twenty, I don't know, he came back carrying water or a broken can of some sort or a shoe or something. (15)And then we decided to cross over to the other hill where we could see some burned down houses. They can't be seen on this photograph. And we passed beneath this plateau where the executions took place. And we passed down there, we took a risk, somebody (20)could have killed us, but we entered the wood on the other side, which I can show you. Can I show you the road we crossed, the road? It can't be seen on this photograph. We went to the woods on another hill. This (25)may have lasted hours because we didn't walk normally.

• Page 2925 • {108/122}

(1)The man who was with me went some 50 metres ahead. I crawled, I sometimes hopped on one leg with a stick. He kept begging me to follow. I was exhausted and hungry and thirsty, but I (5)couldn't walk. I may have been able to live for sometime lying there but I couldn't walk I was so exhausted. And we got to the hill on the other side. We emerged from the woods into a meadow. And then we saw (10)a river or rather the part of the Dam, not the Dam itself, but the water behind it, we thought it was a river. After a while we heard an engine, and I saw a loader collecting dead bodies and loading them onto (15)something. I don't know whether it was a tractor or a truck. But there was a very large pile of bodies. I can't remember how many. I was in great pain. What I have drawn is roughly, very roughly. It may have been larger or smaller. When I cast a glance just once, (20)there may have been so many people. I don't know exactly. There were really a lot. The man who was with me may know more, because he was in better shape. I can't tell you the number. I don't know.

• Q.: Witness, so the shaded area on this (25)photograph represents the area that you saw, the

• Page 2926 • {109/122}

(1)approximate area that you saw covered with bodies that morning?

• A.: Yes, approximately. It may have been smaller. It wasn't absolutely all of it covered. It (5)wasn't right to the edges. I really can't say. It may be approximately like this, it may have been larger, maybe smaller, but that is how it looked like to me.

• Q.: And that is the same area in which you saw the excavator loading bodies?

(10) • A.: Yes. Yes, the excavator. I think that it was yellow. I think it was yellow and it was big and it had wheels. I think it had wheels. I'm not quite sure.

• Q.: Now, to complete your testimony -- I'm sorry (15)to rush you, but time is running out -- I think you then spent four days in the forest with the other gentleman and then I think you reached Bosnian-controlled territory; is that right?

• A.: Yes. Four days we spent there. We wandered (20)around. We didn't know where to go. First we heard shells and shooting. We thought that the front lines could be nearby. We simply wandered around not knowing where we were, where we were going. On one hill we noticed a TV receiver. I (25)think it was Majevica. We thought we'd go to Tuzla or

• Page 2927 • {110/122}

(1)somewhere there. And then we followed the streams. We got lost. We passed through villages. And we happened to come out in the territory of the BH army. But this was by chance. We didn't see any BH army soldiers. We (5)were going along a stream, a village of Vitinice, and we saw two soldiers digging trenches, Serb soldiers. We also came across soldiers in the woods, but we were lucky that he didn't kill us. I was all covered in blood, dirty. It was (10)raining. I was cold. The man with me carried me, encouraging me, and if we hadn't crossed into that territory that day, I think I wouldn't have been able to go forward; I would have been left behind. We heard a male and female voice talking. We (15)didn't know where we were, whether we had crossed the lines, whether we had entered the BH-army-controlled territory. But they were talking about Srebrenica. I can't remember what. I just heard, "Allah will pay them for this." They were talking about killings, and (20)from that we concluded that they were Muslims.

• Q.: Witness, if you could just briefly look at three photographs. I don't have exhibit numbers on mine, but these are three photographs that were taken when you reached --

(25) MR. CAYLEY: What are the exhibit numbers of

• Page 2928 • {111/122}

(1)these, Mr. Registrar?

THE REGISTRAR: [Int.] Exhibit 123, 124, and 125.

MR. CAYLEY: If you could place these in (5)front of the witness. They're not to go on the ELMO, because they'll identify him.

• Q.: Witness, could you just confirm that these were photographs that were taken of your torso, left arm, on left foot after you arrived in (10)Bosnian-controlled territory? You can just answer yes or no.

• A.: Yes. Yes, they are. Yes, they are. They are the wounds on my body. And I assume it was fragmentation bullets, because I have pieces of metal (15)in my foot and in my arm and in my right side, but I can't say for certain.

• Q.: Witness, thank you very much indeed.

MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I have no further questions for the witness. I can now offer him for (20)cross-examination.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. Cayley. Witness, you must be tired, but we have to come to the end of your testimony, so now you're going (25)to answer questions which Mr. Visnjic, I see, Defence

• Page 2929 • {112/122}

(1)attorney, is going to put to you. Mr. Visnjic, you have the floor.

MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President.

(5) • CROSS-EXAMINED by Mr. Visnjic:

• Q.: Witness O, I should like to go back to the beginning of your testimony. You described at one point the uniform of the men to whom you surrendered when you left the woods. You recognised two basic (10)types of uniforms. My question is the following: Did you notice any particular insignia on those uniforms of units or anything like that, anything written on them, any ribbons or the like?

• A.: No, I cannot say that I noticed any emblems (15)or insignia. No, I can't say that. I really can't say what they looked like.

• Q.: My second question has to do with the same time frame. In your examination-in-chief you described a combat vehicle of the army of the Bosnian Serbs with (20)the words "queen of death" written on it.

MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Could we show the witness Exhibit 95, with the help of the usher, please.

• Q.: On this photograph that you see, in the (25)left-hand corner, do you recognise that vehicle, or was

• Page 2930 • {113/122}

(1)the vehicle you saw similar to this one?

• A.: I don't recognise the vehicle, but it was similar. I said that on the tank, which was greyish/greenish, plain colour, and the words "the (5)queen of death" were written on it. But a vehicle next to it was of this type, with wheels. I don't know what it had on it, whether it was machine-guns. Perhaps a machine-gun or so, but I cannot remember these barrels. There may have been another vehicle. I know (10)there was one for sure of this type.

• Q.: If you don't mind, could you look closer at this photograph. Can you see what is written on this vehicle, on the side?

• A.: Yes, I do see it. It says "queen of death."

(15) • Q.: Could you just tell Their Honours what colour is this vehicle, the main colour that this vehicle is painted in?

• A.: The main colour? You see white spots on it. I think it is camouflage colour. It's not plain.

(20) • Q.: Doesn't it look blue?

• A.: No, I don't think so.

• Q.: Thank you. Now let us go to the event in the meadow next to Sandici. During your examination-in-chief you said that one of the soldiers (25)with a bandanna said that they were from Serbia.

• Page 2931 • {114/122}

(1) • A.: Yes.

• Q.: Apart from saying that, could you conclude on any other basis that he came from Serbia? Did he use a different accent or did he have any other insignia or (5)something characteristic?

• A.: I don't know whether he had any insignia. I can't say that he was from Serbia, though that is what he said. I don't know whether he had another accent. I don't know anyone from Serbia, so I don't recognise (10)the accent.

• Q.: My next question: Could you tell us whether the soldiers that were taking you from Bratunac to the school, and the guards in the school, and the soldiers who executed the people, were they members of the same (15)unit? Had you seen any one of them in several spots or did they come from different units?

• A.: I don't know whether they were from the same unit. I didn't notice the same men. They may have been. But I wasn't really interested. I didn't look (20)much, and I can't confirm that, but they wore similar uniforms.

• Q.: Thank you.

MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Mr. President, I have no further questions of this witness. Thank (25)you.

• Page 2932 • {115/122}

(1) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Mr. Visnjic.

MR. CAYLEY: Mr. President, I don't have any further questions in re-examination for the witness.

(5) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you very much, Mr. Cayley. Judge Riad.

JUDGE RIAD: [Int.] Thank you, Mr. President. I have one question, I think.

(10) • QUESTIONED by the Court:

JUDGE RIAD: Good afternoon, Witness O. You must be tired by now.

• A.: Good afternoon.

JUDGE RIAD: The same question which the (15)Defence counsel asked you. You heard the soldiers saying, "You are from Serbia." Were they introducing each other to each other, saying -- one would say, "I'm from Serbia," the other would say, "I'm from Sarajevo," the third one would call him whatever? Did you notice (20)this, or what was it exactly? Why was he saying, "I'm from Serbia," if you were listening?

• A.: He wasn't saying, "I am from Serbia." He said, as far as I heard, at least, "We are from Serbia." I don't know whether he repeated that several (25)times. And I also don't know whether other people

• Page 2933 • {116/122}

(1)said, "I'm from Sarajevo, I'm from Bratunac," or something like that.

JUDGE RIAD: He said "we," not "I." He said, "We are from Serbia"?

(5) • A.: Yes.

JUDGE RIAD: And that's all you know about it. The second thing, which is -- I don't want to disturb you with this memory, but when the shooting (10)started, did you lie down before the shooting started? Because you said, "We lay down and then the shooting started." Did they order you to lie down and then they shot you lying down, or you fell down because of the shooting?

(15) • A.: Maybe it wasn't interpreted correctly. I didn't fall. When they said we should lie down, as I moved forward, the shooting started. I didn't throw myself to the ground not to be killed, because there was hardly any chance for me to survive.

(20) JUDGE RIAD: So just to see -- to be able to visualise it. The order came that you should lie down first, and then shooting started; is that right?

• A.: Yes, yes. To lie forward. To fall forward.

JUDGE RIAD: And then they shoot after you (25)lie down?

• Page 2934 • {117/122}

(1) • A.: No. While we were falling down, lying down.

JUDGE RIAD: I see it was at the same time; lying down and shooting were at the same time? I just want to understand.

(5) • A.: This was a matter of seconds. This happened simultaneously.

JUDGE RIAD: And this perhaps allowed some people not to survive; is that so? You lay down and somebody fell on you?

(10) • A.: No. No one fell over me, no. I don't know whether anyone even touched me. Maybe the man next to me, but I didn't feel him, so I don't know whether he touched me. I don't know whether I hit myself when I fell. I don't know whether I was conscious. I know (15)that while I was lying there, I was in pain.

JUDGE RIAD: Because you got a bullet, as you said. Was it a machine-gun or was it individual shooting on each one, if you remember?

• A.: Those were seconds, so I really can't (20)remember. But they certainly weren't single bullet shots. This was the moment of dying, so I don't know if anyone could remember. These are terrible moments.

JUDGE RIAD: Well, I'm glad you don't remember it. Thank you very much.

(25) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Witness, I

• Page 2935 • {118/122}

(1)should just like to clarify a minor point. When you were in the meadow a soldier told you, "You won't have dinner tonight," and you said that this was ironic. What did you mean?

(5) • A.: Surely it's ironic. If we were beaten, placed into hangars and onto trucks, it would be strange if they had given us dinner. One of the soldiers said that we would be having no dinner.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] So you (10)didn't establish a connection between not having dinner and going to be killed?

• A.: You see, at that point in time I still didn't believe I would be killed, not then. I wouldn't have gone there if I had known that I would have been (15)killed, because, after all, there were a lot of people. They could kill one man, two, or ten, but they can't kill thousands.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] In any event, Witness, did you have the impression that the (20)soldiers who were there and who said that knew already what could or would happen to you?

• A.: I don't know whether all of them knew, but I have a feeling that some of them knew, maybe the majority.

(25) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Very well.

• Page 2936 • {119/122}

(1)We'll stop there. Witness O, you have answered questions by the Prosecution, by the Defence, by the Judges. Is there anything else that you would like to say and that you (5)have not had a chance to say?

• A.: From all of whatever I have said and what I saw, I could come to the conclusion that this was extremely well organised. It was systematic killing. And that the organisers of that do not deserve to be at (10)liberty. And if I had the right and courage, in the name of all those innocents and all those victims, I would forgive the actual perpetrators of the executions, because they were misled. That's all.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Thank you, (15)Witness. You have finished your testimony. You have many years before you to live, and irrespective of the people responsible for these acts and the ethnic origin of those people, such acts may not be repeated. And I think that you share that feeling, that such things may (20)not be done to human beings. You have a whole life before you to say that, and not only to say it, but to live along those lines. And I think you have good reason to live, even though there were moments when you wanted to die. But there are very strong and very good (25)reasons for you to make the best of this life, to tell

• Page 2937 • {120/122}

(1)the world and tell people that we must not accept a repetition of such acts. Witness O, don't move. We just have a few points to deal with with the parties. I think there (5)are several exhibits on the part of the Prosecutor. Mr. Cayley?

MR. CAYLEY: Yes. Thank you, Mr. President. If I could apply for admission formally into evidence of Prosecutor's Exhibit 123, 124, 125, and 126. 123, (10)124, and 125 are the three photographs of the witness's injuries, and 126 is the photographic copy of a photograph of the Dam on which the witness indicated the area of the Dam that was covered in bodies that he saw.

(15) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] Mr. Cayley, I think there is another exhibit, 124, which has to be under seal, I think. I'm asking you this because of the identity of the witness, the three photos of the witness. The three should be tendered under seal?

(20) MR. CAYLEY: You're quite right, Mr. President. Certainly one of the photographs identifies him by his image, so I think it would be safest if all three are placed under the seal of the Court.

(25) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.]

• Page 2938 • {121/122}

(1)Mr. Visnjic, have you any objections?

MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] No, Mr. President.

JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] You have no (5)exhibits, I think. You used those that have already been tendered, I think.

MR. VISNJIC: [Int.] Yes, that is correct, Mr. President. We used the exhibits of the Prosecutor.

(10) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] In that case, for reasons of caution, I think it would be better to admit under seal Exhibits 124 and 125, Mr. Cayley. Otherwise there may be a risk of identification, even in the case of Exhibit 125. (15)So these exhibits will be admitted, 124 and 125, under seal, Mr. Dubuisson. You have taken note of that?

THE REGISTRAR: [Int.] Yes, Mr. President.

(20) JUDGE RODRIGUES: [Int.] There we are. We have finished for today. Witness O, stay seated for a few more minutes, in the interests of your protection, and we will resume work tomorrow at 9.30 to try and hear the (25)two remaining witnesses, to try and avoid them waiting

• Page 2939 • {122/122}

(1)or having to come back again. Thank you very much for your cooperation and your work, and we'll meet again tomorrow at 9.30. And there is a possibility of continuing tomorrow until 3, as I have said.

(5) --- Whereupon the hearing adjourned at 2.40 p.m., to be reconvened on Friday, the 14th day of April, 2000, at 9.30 a.m.