Talisman Bahai Archives Jan. 30-31, 1996
Jan 30-31, 1996
Talisman emails received 1/30/96
---------------------------------------------------------
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 96 18:32:07 PST
Subject: RE: Mail to Burl
To: Talisman , "Richard C. Logan"
On Mon, 29 Jan 1996 13:18:46 -0600 (CST) Richard C. Logan wrote:
>Dear Talisman,
>
>I have been having problems getting messages to Burl--anyone else
have
>this Email problem?
>
>Richard
>
This would be important to me. I've sent him a couple postings and
now I don't know whether he got them.
Burl?
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/29/96
Time: 18:32:08
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 21:01:45 -0600
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Steve Jordan
Subject: Re: Top Ten CD's
OK. I'll play this one, too. But I don't think I can limit it to CD's.
How about artists?
Bela Fleck - His work with the Flecktones, New Grass Revival, and solo push
the envelope. If you can imagine electric banjo (hey, don't laugh until you
hear it!), playing anything from jazz to bluegrass, you get the idea. Very
eclectic (sort of a Unity in Diversity set to music). Check out the latest
- Acoustic Planet - he plays with Chick Corea, Wynton Marsalis, Bruce
Hornsby, among others.
Beatles - No comment necessary
Indigo Girls - Two women, two acoustic guitars, strong harmonies, poetic lyrics.
Crowded House - Nice music, good harmonies, interesting/strange lyrics
Paul Simon - Intellegent lyrics, challenging melodies and rhythms. Not
afraid to experiment with influences from other cultures.
Shake Russell and Jack Saunders- A local singer/songwriter duo. A Texas
Country/Rock/Folk thing. As close to listening to country music as I get.
Pat Metheny - Hey, he's a Kansas City boy made good. It also helps that
he's a talented jazz guitarist and composer, willing to take risks and
experiment with different cultural influences
Steely Dan - One of the first intelligent rock bands. Mostly early stuff,
but some of the later stuff is good, too.
Joni Mitchell - Complex music that sounds simple. But how does she fit so
many lyrics in such little space?
Stevie Wonder - Again, no comment necessary
Of course, if you ask me this same question tomorrow, I may give a totally
different answer. I also enjoy listening to Celtic music, Michael Hedges,
Goerge Winston, Eric Clapton, Janis Joplin, Aaron Neville, Dixie Dregs,
Miles Davis, Chick Corea......
I have greatly enjoyed the book and music thread. It gives nice insight
into the various personalities here on Talisman. I know the discussion may
be a little light for some of you, but you'll just have to tolerate it
Steve Jordan
jordan@iapc.net
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Violence and Recovery
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 20:51:37 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Don and other Talismanians -
It has been a while since I have posted here on the subject of the
twelve-step recovery movement (AA, NA, CoDA, and a host of others). The
folks in that movement seem, for the most part, to be well-intentioned,
but, OTOH, many of those I have met tend to be suspicious of science,
academic scholarship, and ideas which contradict their quasi-religious
ideas, centering around the recovery movement in general and often the
Minnesotta model (mainstream drug and alcohol rehabilitation centers
which combine the twelve steps with cognitive, group, and individual
therapy) - both of which are characterized by high relapse rates. (See
any of Stanton Peele's books.)
It is wonderful if these movements can be of help to some people,
and, to the extent they can, they should, as the beloved Guardian said,
receive the full support of Baha'i communities. However, more recent
research, reported by Peele and others, has shown that other drug and
alcohol programs, specifically community reinforcement, have higher
success rates than AA or NA. Moreover, Peele has also argued that the
data suggest an even higher rate of alcoholism relapse among AA members
(which he attributes to an expectation of relapse) than among those who
are able to overcome alcoholism without treatment or with other forms of
treatment. Some data also suggest that, contrary to Bill Wilson's ideas,
many *true* alcoholics may be able to return to moderate drinking (not
that this course of action would be advisable, but it challenges the
medical model of alcoholism).
The fastest growing twelve-step group, Codependents Anonymous
(CoDA), recently had a major setback. They tried to get codependence
included in the DSM IV. But the American Psychiatric Association
concluded that there was insufficient research evidence to merit its
inclusion. Many in CoDA reacted to this event as a form of *religious
persecution*.
I have argued that, historically, the twelve-step movement is a form
of neo-Lutheranism (sprinkled with a fair amount of New Thought a la
Emmett Fox). The origin of AA was Frank Buchmann's Oxford Group (later,
Moral Re-Armament). Buchmann himself was from a Lutheran background; and
the Lutheran concept of justification by faith can be found in AA's "Big
Book" and in the "Twelve and Twelve," e.g., in the notion of becoming
recovered through completing the steps as quickly as possible (an idea
which has been substantially modified by most of the factions of the
twelve-step movement, with the one exception, as far as I know, of the
now nearly defunct "Recoveries Anonymous").
Back when I lived in Georgia, I developed a program which I designed
to be of assistance to people who were, as I put it, suffering from
self-destructive behavior. I called it "The Four-Point Solution"
(prayer, meditation, deepening, and self-sacrificial service). Due to
lack of time, I have not continued it here. Many people said that they
received much benefit from it. However, if I were to do something with
it again, it would need to be revised substantially. In any case, I
think that Baha'is can be in the forefront of developing programs to be
of assistance to many suffering people.
To the Light,
Mark (Foster)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion * Full-Time College Faculty *
*Past (1995) Pres., Kansas Sociological Society * Owner, Baha'i Studies List *
*Director, Reality Sciences Institute * Co-Moderator, Another Baha'i List *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Staff, 3 CompuServe Religion Fora, incl. Baha'i Section Leader (72642,3105) *
*Chief Baha'i Chat Host, America Online (TFPMark) * mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us *
*Sysop, Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1) * mfoster@tyrell.net *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The Prophets of God have been the Servants of Reality; Their
Teachings constitute the science of reality." - `Abdu'l-Baha
"The sciences of today are bridges to reality; if then they lead not
to reality, naught remains but fruitless illusion." - `Abdu'l-Baha
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 19:58:57 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: "Richard C. Logan"
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Browne and the Baha'i Faith
Dear Richard--
Thanks for the great post on Browne. Without going through your post
point-by-point, I believe the argument you are presenting here (not new,
btw) is precisely what I was talking about when I said "historical
revisionism" a few days back. Your analysis, while valuable in-itself, makes
many assumptions, stemming from an ideological conviction, no doubt, that
is not based on actual historical fact. Balyuzi does the same,
unfortunately, as have many others. I suggest for Baha'is who want to
question Browne's overall motives or his "questionable scholarly
objectivity," to read the entire corpus of Browne's published writings,
starting with his 4 volume magnum opus, _A Literary History of Persia_,
before passing sweeping indictments of the man.
A few facts are in order. Firstly, Browne was never interested in
vindicating the Baha'i Faith for its own sake. The reason being this:
as far as Iran and Iranian religions were concerned, E.G. Browne considered
himself first and foremost, and above all, an *Iranian Nationalist*. Browne
was definitely a man of his times and the internationalism we Baha'is have
been advocating from day 1 (or have we?) did not mean a thing to him
(many thanx to John Walbridge for pointing out this pivotal fact to me).
If you don't believe me, read Appendix B (16) _Attitude of Baha'is
towards Persian Politics_, pp. 424-28, in his _The Persian Revolution,
1905-09_, Mage Publishers (Washington DC: 1995), also appearing in
Moojan's _E.G. Browne and the Babi & Baha'i Religions_ (this one is
currently packed in a box so I can't give you a full citation, sorry!).
Given this, as well as his *romantic idealization* of Mirza Yahya which
came from his youthful encounter with Comte Gobineau's book, is it any
wonder then that Browne would support the cause of seething, conspiratorial,
hyper-revolutionary nationalists like the Azalis? No it is not! That is
why, IMHO, the question as to why Browne did not ultimately side with the
Baha'is is historically begging the question in the extreme and totally
beside the point. Now, don't get me wrong, I don't like nor endorse
Browne's stance on the Baha'i vs Azali issue, nevertheless facts are
facts.
Moreover, the charge by some that Browne was a British agent is even more
preposterous given his *expressed* political sentiments towards Iran and
especially given the fact that he was at constant logger-heads with his
government over the latters _Iran policy_ before, during and after the
Constitutional Revolution_. If Browne was a British agent, then every
Constitutionalist of good conscience was also.
Please read _The Persian Revolution, 1905-1909_ and _A Literary History
of Persia_. That is my *last* 2cents on the subject.
Regards,
Nima
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Violence and Recovery
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 22:33:55 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Don and other Talismanians -
It has been a while since I have posted here on the subject of the
twelve-step recovery movement (AA, NA, CoDA, and a host of others). The
folks in that movement seem, for the most part, to be well-intentioned,
but, OTOH, many of those I have met tend to be suspicious of science,
academic scholarship, and ideas which contradict their quasi-religious
ideas, centering around the recovery movement in general and often the
Minnesotta model (mainstream drug and alcohol rehabilitation centers
which combine the twelve steps with cognitive, group, and individual
therapy) - both of which are characterized by high relapse rates. (See
any of Stanton Peele's books.)
It is wonderful if these movements can be of help to some people,
and, to the extent they can, they should, as the beloved Guardian said,
receive the full support of Baha'i communities. However, more recent
research, reported by Peele and others, has shown that other drug and
alcohol programs, specifically community reinforcement, have higher
success rates than AA or NA. Moreover, Peele has also argued that the
data suggest an even higher rate of alcoholism relapse among AA members
(which he attributes to an expectation of relapse) than among those who
are able to overcome alcoholism without treatment or with other forms of
treatment. Some data also suggest that, contrary to Bill Wilson's ideas,
many *true* alcoholics may be able to return to moderate drinking (not
that this course of action would be advisable, but it challenges the
medical model of alcoholism).
The fastest growing twelve-step group, Codependents Anonymous
(CoDA), recently had a major setback. They tried to get codependence
included in the DSM IV. But the American Psychiatric Association
concluded that there was insufficient research evidence to merit its
inclusion. Many in CoDA reacted to this event as a form of *religious
persecution*.
I have argued that, historically, the twelve-step movement is a form
of neo-Lutheranism (sprinkled with a fair amount of New Thought a la
Emmett Fox). The origin of AA was Frank Buchmann's Oxford Group (later,
Moral Re-Armament). Buchmann himself was from a Lutheran background; and
the Lutheran concept of justification by faith can be found in AA's "Big
Book" and in the "Twelve and Twelve," e.g., in the notion of becoming
recovered through completing the steps as quickly as possible (an idea
which has been substantially modified by most of the factions of the
twelve-step movement, with the one exception, as far as I know, of the
now nearly defunct "Recoveries Anonymous").
Back when I lived in Georgia, I developed a program which I designed
to be of assistance to people who were, as I put it, suffering from
self-destructive behavior. I called it "The Four-Point Solution"
(prayer, meditation, deepening, and self-sacrificial service). Due to
lack of time, I have not continued it here. Many people said that they
received much benefit from it. However, if I were to do something with
it again, it would need to be revised substantially. In any case, I
think that Baha'is can be in the forefront of developing programs to be
of assistance to many suffering people.
To the Light,
Mark (Foster)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion * Full-Time College Faculty *
*Past (1995) Pres., Kansas Sociological Society * Owner, Baha'i Studies List *
*Director, Reality Sciences Institute * Co-Moderator, Another Baha'i List *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Staff, 3 CompuServe Religion Fora, incl. Baha'i Section Leader (72642,3105) *
*Chief Baha'i Chat Host, America Online (TFPMark) * mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us *
*Sysop, Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1) * mfoster@tyrell.net *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The Prophets of God have been the Servants of Reality; Their
Teachings constitute the science of reality." - `Abdu'l-Baha
"The sciences of today are bridges to reality; if then they lead not
to reality, naught remains but fruitless illusion." - `Abdu'l-Baha
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 22:42:33 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Browne and the Baha'i Faith
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Sadra"
Cc: "Talisman"
Dear Nima,
I don't know how to disagree with you on things I'm unaware of. But I
can say this--it is quite obvious that he was going throught the typical
scholarly drill and he was aproduct of his fantasies that much seems
inescapable. It seems to me that most any "disinterested" western
scholar would have, in some measure followed the same path regardless of
the "nationalist sympathies you believe so pivitol in understanding
Brown-- which in my opinion re-enforces my conclusions rather than
refutes them. But I'll be seeing you at the conference and we'll hash it
out then.
See you soon Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
From: Dave10018@aol.com
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 00:03:39 -0500
To: mfoster@tyrell.net, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Violence and Recovery
"It's been awhile", Mark says, since he's posted on any of the recovery
movements.
Indeed! I really must learn to backup, because if I had my lengthy replies to
Mark from last time I would simply repost them. This seems to be beat a dead
horse week. (hello Jim)
If anyone has those posts...
I trust several Talismanites can rouse themselves to suitable (not ad hominim
but firm) replies to this ...post.
quasi-religiously,
david taylor
=END=
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 96 19:02 GMT+1300
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Alison & Steve Marshall
Subject: RE: sex and values
Cc: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Hi Robert, thanks for the kind words about the Dunedin Baha'i newsletter.
-----------------------------
>Jackson Armstrong-Ingram seems to think that it is good and fine to bring
>to light the homosexuality of certain Baha'is, but really the concealment
>of their homosexuality must surely be the superior path. Is not the
>standard of the sin-covering eye upheld in the Writings? To draw attention
>to the homosexuality of particular Baha'is would be to highlight their
>moral shortcomings. It is preposterous to assume it would be an act of
>kindness, or genuine spirituality. Mr Armstrong-Ingram's position is not
>consisent with fundamental tenets of the Faith.
Refer gives two references to the sin-covering eye:
"Haji Mirza Aqasi ... emboldened by the sin-covering eye of his Brother..."
(Shoghi Effendi: God Passes By, pages 164-165)
"But individuals towards each other are governed by love, unity, forgiveness
and a sin-covering eye. Once the friends grasp this they will get along much
better, but they keep playing Spiritual Assembly to each other and expect
the Assembly to behave like an individual."
(Shoghi Effendi: Directives of the Guardian, pages 41-42)
I don't get the feeling that a sin-covering eye is a fundamental tenet of
the Baha'i Faith, and I don't think Jackson is "playing Spiritual Assembly"
-- quite the opposite, in fact.
In what way is Jackson's position, in the situation he outlined for us, "not
consistent with fundamental tenets of the Faith"? [Uh, this is the Baha'i
Faith you're referring to? :-) ]
"Love is the fundamental principle of God's purpose for man,
and He has commanded us to love each other even as He loves us.
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Paris Talks*, page 122)
Jackson:
1. was following the wishes of the person concerned.
2. wasn't revealing anything new to the non-Baha'i academics who were
being invited to take part in the conference.
3. avoided the hypocrisy of appropriating products for his own benefit
while denying the actuality or authenticity of the life experience of
the producers.
"The people of Baha ... are neither adept at dissimulation and
hypocrisy..."
(Shoghi Effendi: Trustworthiness, page 349)
4. consulted with the conference committee.
"Baha'u'llah has established consultation as one of the fundamental
principles of His Faith and has exhorted the believers to "take
counsel together in all matters".
(Baha'u'llah: Aqdas: Notes, page 190)
Jackson was in a difficult situation, with no clear-cut right or wrong
answers, but I think he applied some good principles and did rather well.
ka kite ano,
Steve
--------------------------------------------------------------
Alison and Steve Marshall
Email: forumbahai@es.co.nz
90 Blacks Road, Opoho, Dunedin/Otepoti, Aotearoa/New Zealand
--------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 02:02:25 -0500
Message-Id: <960130020224_307141003@mail06.mail.aol.com>
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: Deathless Youth
Woooh John ! Thank you ! Bless your heart ! This is tooo neat .
Sen - eat your heart out it is (mer) Maids everywhere .
John I am overwhelmed .. This is just ,just I dont know what . For
years I have said that Bahau llah IS the Maid of Heaven ; the embodiment of
the Divine Feminine . I cant wait to include this in my Baha Maiden dialogue
stuff .
Between last nights Surah of Blood and tonites Deathless Youth I think I
am ready to die and go to heaven . If you dont here from for a few weeks it
will be that I am lost in paradise tracing the "Maid of Glory" . . .. . .
with the fingers of my soul .
"Rejoice ! this is the Deathless Maid , come with a mighty grace ."
Gracious God ! What a Theophany it is ! ! ! cant wait to see what
Lora Mc call and music can do with this one . Im drunk .
warmest regards,
Terry
=END=
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 96 06:33:49 UT
From: "Hannah E. Reinstein"
To: "Loni Bramson-Lerche" ,
"Jackson
Armstrong-Ingram"
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Sex, Relative Truth, and Video Terminals
A few reflections on gender and sex follow...
I'm so-o-o confused! I can easily picture more than two genders or perhaps
subtle variances of the two genders. However, I don't understand the basis for
the concept of more than two biological sexes in humans. I agree with Jackson
that gender is primarily a social construct and brain-centered whereas sex is
fundamentally organic and is in the genetic material and reproductive function
of the creature.
What I can contribute to this discussion are the experiences and feelings of
one Baha'i who has crossed the gender line. That doesn't imply that my
opinions are the only acceptable ones. It just means that "I've seen both
sides now" and therefore have a very rare perspective on gender. Perhaps it
can help to enhance the understanding of gender issues a little bit. That's
the intention of this post. If it raises more questions, that's good also.
Questions of gender are fundamental to my self-understanding. They are not
abstract issues in my life. I've literally moved from my socialized gender to
my innate and correct one. I consider the variance to be a birth defect. There
is some scientific evidence for that view but it's not conclusive. Thanks to
endocrine therapy my body's hormonal mix is nearly identical to that of a
typical adult female although my face and voice are not (yet). I'm a size 9.
That has to count for something.
Because of lifelong socialization as a male my orientation has not changed nor
will it ever change. In the vast majority of gender-dysphoric persons,
self-identified gender and sexual orientation are independent of one another.
The change of gender was so vital to me that it was worth doing even though
I'd never again have a physical partner in life. That satisfies my personal
religious beliefs which are also vital. I do not believe that it is possible
for a person to change their natal sex. They can only change the visible
characteristics of their sex but not their genetic structure. Therefore they
will only simulate the other sex even after so-called sexual reassignment
surgery. The term sexual reassignment is a self-serving fiction. The surgery
enables persons who cross the gender line to be accepted and live out their
lives in modern western society in peace according to their deepest needs.
Society will accept them by their outward appearance and accord them rights.
Otherwise they are marginalized or persecuted. Some do it in order to have
relations with what they believe to be the opposite sex. My motive, however,
is simple completeness and healing.
If I were to raise this issue in any Transsexual forum, I'd be flamed
mercilessly. Actually, that's already happened once. I was effectively
banished from the Microsoft Network (MSN) Transgender Forum because of it.
People have a vested interest in justifying themselves. That's very important
to persons who have suffered because of gender issues from earliest childhood.
I've been told by some gender-dysphoric persons that my belief in chastity and
absolute refusal to consider a physical relationship with the opposite sex
completely invalidates what I'm doing. I can't agree with that. I do not
require anyone else to hold this view. It's a personal interpretation. If a
Baha'i changes their gender but not their genetic structure--at present a
technological impossibility--they are making a more extraordinary choice than
at first seems obvious. However, another Baha'i transsexual that I met on the
MSN strongly condemned this view. The present and binding state of Baha'i law
states who can do what to whom and when they can do it. There are no choices
for me there even if I wanted them.
When I was asked in the MSN forum why God would let a person be born in such a
state, I declined to answer. The question cannot be answered. It's like asking
why there are birth defects, or illness, or earthquakes or why there are crib
deaths. The answer has to be intuitive. Some things are unknowable and some
are nonverbal and inexplicable. However I did state that any test so profound
must be a Divine bounty of some kind. That view, a fundamentally mystical one,
infuriated several people. Baha'u'llah, however, teaches it in many places
including the Hidden Words, The Seven Valleys, and many prayers.
Finally, some species of amphibians and some lizards physically change their
sex and reproductive function. Humans don't have that ability. Of course, in
lower animals, it's involuntary and serves to perpetuate the species.
Returning to the theme that started this letter, I just don't understand how
there can be more than two sexes in humans. One sex can make babies and the
other cannot. But perhaps there are three human sexes after all: male; female;
and asexual.
Thanks for your patience with me,
Hannah
The Artist Formerly Known As Cary
----------
From: owner-talisman@indiana.edu on behalf of Jackson Armstrong-Ingram
Sent: Monday, 29 January, 1996 13:28 PM
To: Loni Bramson-Lerche
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: re sex and values
I do not know how the book you are reading is defining terms (although I
must admit to raised eyebrows at anyone using the hoary old term horde)
but as i would use them "sex" is a biological matter referring to subsets
of species which can share genetic information with one or more other
subsets to result in a new generation that combines genetic information
from all parents in a package that is distinct from any one parent,
higher animals have 2 sexes some more creative lower life forms have a
lot more (there is a slime mold with 11); "gender" refers to a social
status with an associated role (set of behaviors). There is no given
connection between gender and sex. There are well over a 100 societies
with third gender roles; their marriage patterns reflect this.
Jackson
=END=
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 00:45:26 -0700
To: "Mark A. Foster"
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: Re: Prayer & Meditation
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Mark:
Your post interested me. I tried various forms of meditation,
before becoming a Baha'i, with little success. I'm what's commonly known
as an "attention deficit disorder"ed person, although in my youth my
disposition was described in even less charitable terms. (Now, in my 47th
year the symptoms have become endearing idiosyncracies so it doesn't bother
me much). I found that repetition of the greatest name, (I use Ya Baha'u'l
Abha), the short healing prayer, or the Remover of Difficulties, in
conjunction with controlled breathing exercises and progressive relaxation
techniques works quite well for me.
Last year Valerie and I began taking Tai Chi together and I've been
combining that with my prayers. I'm truly amazed at the result. I would be
interested in hearing about meditation practices other Baha'is use (how
about a 10 favourite forms of meditation list) Hell, folks around here
barely stop to think let alone meditate!
The next time I'm at the library I'll see if I can fetch something
by H. Benson - never heard of him.
LBG's
Gord.
****************************************************
"whatever seeks to exist and endure also desires to be one; for without
unity, existence itself cannot be sustained" (Boethius 524 A.D.)
****************************************************
Gordon A. McFarlane e-mail: McFarlane@upanet.uleth.ca
919 11th Street South phone: (403) 327-2987
Lethbridge, Alberta; Canada
TlJ 2P7
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 10:04:59 +0100 (MET)
Subject: individualism (again)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
> individualism in the US is largely a result of the desire
> to be an independent, self defined entity as a nation - would
> you all agree with this notion?
I wouldn't agree - unless you can show that other peoples who
are striving to be 'independent self-defined entities' also have
high degrees of individualism - I'm thinking of Wales, Cornwall,
Scotland, Native Hawaiians, Maoris, Aborigines, Russians (at
present), Greeks, Macedonians, Serbs, Northern Yemenis,
Armenians, homosexuals ... in fact just about everyone wants to
be a self-defined entity, and given the present disruption of
identities, it is a rather urgent and uncomfortable matter for very
many peoples. Correlation with individualism? I think not. Auto-
correlation perhaps: both the individualism and the desire for
self-defined collective identities are expressions of the same
evolutionary force which drives towards ever greater levels of
differentiation - I call the process individuation, or the 'diversity
drive'. It's a basic force of (super-)nature, a somewhat syllogistic
explanation of why we begin with One (or, for the atheist, at
least with a simple state) but now perceive Many - and a 'many'
whose variety is exploding outwards without apparent limit. In
metaphysical terms, this drive is the urge of the names of God to
distinctly manifest themselves in the world. Thus (to sing my
favourite tune), at one time the god-king could manifest both 'the
kingdom of dominion' and 'the temple of praise', but these two
eventually developed as separate organs (as the organs gradually
become distinct in the fetus, and start to function). Or consider
the gradual emergence of successive organs of the Baha'i body
politic. The process of individuation is one-way in life, but is
reversed at death. At the individual level, the diversity drive is
the force that leads us to develop our hidden gems, achieve our
potentials, etc: to manifest the name of God which is our
particular trust and destiny - Cheshmakiness or Senity as the case
may be. The unique fingerprint of the Potter in our clay, that
makes I me and You you and him & her weird but wonderful.
Strong individualism (used loosely in the sense of unhealthy
manifestations of the process of individuation) is evident in
young societies and in young people in societies undergoing
change, which may indicate either that the drive is stronger in the
young and gets ahead of the unity-building which ought to keep
pace with it, or that it is - paradoxically - difficult to achieve
individualization in an environment which does not provide one
with sufficient clues about how to realize one's identity. Maybe
the unwelcome manifestations, such as selfishness and anti-social
behaviour, should be seen as evidence of frustrated individuation?
I said that unity-building has to keep pace with individuation -
eg, when development reached the level of the nation state and
these acquired their distinct individualities, there was a period of
chaos (not yet ended) because the individualities did not have a
framework of unity they could fit within (neither the unities of
cities nor the unity of all (male) souls as sons of the church
could serve when the individualities concerned were nations).
Individuation is a natural process which we do not have to plan
(though we should plan for it), whereas unity-building does take
sustained effort and planning. Clearly there are problems when
the unity level is inadequate, but in fact this is a too static
formulation, as if unity and individuation were counter-balancing
forces. I think in fact they are chicken and egg: without
individuation there is nothing to be united, but the unity leads to
security and stability and so creates the conditions for further
individuation.
We have successively passed through various levels of
individuation, from the first differentiation of tribal roles (visible
also in animals), through the basic economic differentiation at an
individual level between farmers, manual trades, traders and
rulers which made cities possible, and the further differentiation
of cities with particular characteristics which made the first
multi-city empires possible (ports, granary-cities, capital city,
shrine & pilgrimage city). The challenge at each stage is to
recognize the particular quality of the individuation which is
occurring and what extra potential and need that creates for a
higher level of unity. To give one example - it is necessary for
the elected and appointed arms to understand what they are, what
they are for, and how they are different, in order for them to
learn to work together (see the UHJ letter to the NSA of the
USA, May 1994).
I think our age is characterized by individuation which is
reaching the highest level of socio-political individuation
possible, in that the basic economic and political unity is
increasingly the single individual. Actually it goes beyond this I
think, since epistemological individuality (individual search for
truth) seems to me more far-reaching than the fact that we act as
single persons in the political and economic sphere. This deeper
individualization creates the possibility for a new kind of
'modern' state, based on individual citizens who are informed and
capable of forming their own opinions, with guaranteed rights
and duties for individuals, rather than for estates or classes or
guilds etc, and so on. This reformation of the state to recognize
the primacy of the individual is theologically correct, since the
individual is 'made in the image of God' whereas the state or
other collective is at best sanctioned by God. It leads in the first
place to reformation of the state, to create a unity which is very
much more complex, multi-centred and differentiated than
centralized states in which the individual was subordinate to the
collective. But it has also had a powerful affect on achieving
unity between nations - there is an obvious negative correlation
between indicators such as the observance of human rights,
educational levels, freedom of information and participation of
the affected in the decision-making process within a country and
the aggressiveness of that country in relation to others (actually,
one has to do a mental correction for the size factor to make this
relation hold: the US can hardly be said to be unaggressive, but
if one considers its overwhelming power advantage it hasn't done
too badly. Albania was not terribly aggressive, but it had damn
all choice.) It seems quite possible that as this wave of
individuation & its manifestation in the individualization of
social and political life spreads, it may aid us to achieve the
highest possible level of political organization on the planet - the
unity of nations in a world federation.
Sen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-216854
Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
and the individuality of each,
thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 10:04:18 +0100 (MET)
Subject: survey
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Lonely in Omaha,
re Talisman survey:
The personal results here are
1) that I spend much much more time reading and studying the
writings. Also a renewed sense of spirituality, partly due to
talisman and partly to growing older I think.
2) following from Terry's postings, and reports of worship
meetings in other communities, we initiated thursday night
'mystics meetings' which vary between discussions of mystic and
poetic writings to meditative practices. These look like being
very valuable for our own spiritual life, and for the first time we
have people regularly coming and coming back to talk about the
Faith. But we are SOOO inexpert, it will take a while to find a
form for this that really suits the Dutch situation
3) I've decided to learn Persian and Arabic, and actually started
with the latter, and to devote some years to really getting to grip
with the sacred texts and their history and context
4) I've used the feedback from Talisman significantly in my
writing: notably Terry's concept of the importance of the House
of Worship as centre of the community, and Juan's placing of the
early Baha'i Faith in the context of the absolutism vs. democracy
arguments in the Middle East of their time
5) not least, I have the feeling of being useful by contributing to
the discussions here, whereas an interest in Baha'i studies had
previously led rather to suspicion and isolation. Talisman may
point to a way of integrating the elements of knowledge and
service in the community.
Wider community results are hard to guage, since we are rather
isolated here. However I have been passing some ideas about the
development of the institution of the Mashriq'ul-Adhkar on to the
National Assembly, who have made interested noises and asked
one of the Assembly members to prepare some initial notes on
the practicability of implimenting such ideas. This person asked
me to prepare something for the equivalent of the Baha'i News
here, by way (I think) of introducing the idea to the community
to see what response it gets.
When we move to a larger community in Leiden I am very much
hoping to start talisman deepenings on the Omaha model, as well
as being highly motivated (by Talisman) to make some
preliminary steps towards a site for Baha'i scholarship in Leiden,
and the development of the insitution of the Mashriq there.
Whether these last two are practicable remains in the hands of
God (and wealthy donors interested in investing in property in
Leiden, home of the best Middle-Eastern library outside the
Middle East and a perfect site for e.g. an endowed chair in Bahai
studies - hint hint).
In short, I don't know how we managed without Talisman. But -
there is a size limit, since too many subscribers means too much
mail to read per day. The effects of Talismaniac conversation
should be extended to the widest possible community, but how
do we solve this problem?
Sen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-216854
Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
and the individuality of each,
thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 02:18:42 -0800
To: "Stephen R. Friberg" , tan1@cornell.edu,
talisman@indiana.edu
From: nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
Subject: Re: status quo and utopia
Dear Steve,
>> Everything this system does divides families, cripples and crushes
>> the human spirit, promotes dependency . . .
>
>Basically, you are saying that the war on poverty seems to have
>failed, or rather that it has even backfired.
As to whether it has backfired or not depends on the view one takes of those who
created it. If they were good intentioned people who honestly thought they were
doing the right thing --- then it backfired. If, they were taking the
expedient political
steps to quiet the cries of those in need and those who, through altruistic
motives
supported those in need --- then it backfired. If these scenarios are true,
then it has
backfired.
But, OTOH, if it was set in motion by people who believe that the only way
that any
problem can be solved is to have the government take care of it; who believe
that it
doesn't matter what happens to the poor and needy as long as they can be at the
head of the parade enjoying luxurious comforts while mouthing good words; who
need the poor and needy to be a *victim* class so they begin to *demand* to
be taken
care of because it is their *right* and are *entitled* to receive from
society without
contributing to it; who want to sit at the head of the table and force the
poor and
needy to sit below the salt, if they get to sit at the table at all! If
this scenario is true,
then it has succeed beyond their wildest dreams.
>> they had better wake up to the fact of what the unintended consequences of
>> their actions are and that the system is broken and that it needs to be
>> replaced with something that engenders individual responsibility for actions
>> taken.
>
>Are you saying that it has backfired because it has failed to engender
>individual responsibility?
The reason the War on Poverty failed is because the government tried to
solve the
problems in a strictly material way without trying to understand human
frailties. If
you expect nothing out of a person --- you will get nothing. If you expect
a person
to achieve and help get them the tools to do so --- they will most of the
time. I have
known all kinds of people down on the seamy side of life and by and large I have
found that if you treat each one with respect and dignity, that is what you
get back.
If you don't treat people as responsible adults, they won't be responsible
adults, just
dependant children. When society tells someone they are not responsible because
they had a bad up-bringing, were abused, had an alcoholic parent, are
depressed, are
a minority, or any one of a thousand other excuses we all lose.
I am responsible for everything that has happened in my life. If it was
good I did
the correct things to bring it about. If it was bad I did the incorrect
things to bring it
about. God gave me no tests --- He didn't need to --- I gave myself plenty!
This life is school. This life is a test. The only way we will learn
anything is to
overcome tests. If you want strong muscles you have to work them to the
breaking
point. Then you rest for a couple of days and let the muscles heal.
Through the
healing process they become stronger. Keep this up and you have a strong
healthy
body.
>I am fascinated by what you are saying. Could you say some more? I
>know people from very difficult situations who were kept afloat for
>a while by the Great Society programs, and I know that there are many
>who say that the United States doesn't sacrifice enough of itself to
>help those who are struggling. But, you are saying something quite
>different.
To be kept afloat for a while if good. We all have times when we need the
assistance
and compassion of others. But not for years and even generations. I once
had to go
on food stamps. I was living on $35 a week unemployment (back when money was
worth something), renting a basement with another man for $15 per month each
(yes,
it was that bad a place --- down in the barrio). The process to get the
food stamps
was degrading and vile beyond belief. The social worker was just an automatons
shuffling papers. I may as well have been a lump of clay. With the $35 a week
income I was to well off to get general assistance (welfare) and because I
was white
and to old there were no programs they could offer me. To rub salt into the
wound I
made enough money to have to pay 50% of the cost of the food stamps --- $26
to get
$52 --- give me a break! Some of the friends I had were in bad financial
situations
also. After a while this treatment began to show on them. They had no
feeling of
self worth. They did not try to find work. They just shuffled through the
system
with their hands out. I only got them for two months and I don't want to go
through that again.
A person in that position has little incentive to improve their situation.
If you get a
job at minimum wage you lose all the *benefits*, have to pay taxes, and
still don't
have enough to live on. It is an insidious circle.
And don't forget that people are smart. They learn to finesse the system.
When I
drove tour coaches for a large resort I worked four months on, two months
off, four
on, two off. On the shoulder, or off seasons, I got unemployment. I didn't
have to
actively look for work because I was considered seasonal labor, but I had
to stay in
town to be available if the resort called. I knew they would not call so I
filled in the
claim card and left them with a friend so I could travel. My friend mailed
them in
each week and when I would return home I had checks waiting. This is but a
small
example of how people learn to work the system.
>I believe, as you do, that the Baha'i Faith would help solve the
>problem, but I can't now foresee the details. I have thought that
>if everybody were part of the same church, rich and poor, black
>and white, that we no longer could isolate ourselves from each other's
>needs and wants like we do now. And, once we understood, we would
>start to form friendships and help each other. In other words, we
>would start to reform our sundered communities. Do you think that
>I am thinking in the right direction?
Yes Steve, I do. If my remarks above sound cynical that is because they are
--- or
were until I became a Baha'i. I don't know the answers either, yet. Last
spring
when the "Prosperity of Humankind" came out I read it with interest. It all
looked
familiar and there was nothing *noticeable* new. It was OK. After putting
it down I
stopped an thought, "Hey boy, the House of Justice requests the Baha'i
International
Community to write this and my only thought is that it is OK. What am I missing
here?" I went back and reread it four more times. Each time I saw more and
more
in it. What that document asks the world --- not just the Baha'is --- but
the whole
world --- to do is stop and rethink its ways of doing business. Consider
what the
BIC asks for. Nothing less than a complete reordering and reworking of
everything
we do now! I could easily quote great parts of it but I have babbled on too
long as it
is. Read it. Study it. Pass it out to everyone you know. It is one or
the best
teaching tools I've ever seen.
I hope this makes sense to you. If not I apologize for writing on what is an
emotional subject when I'm so tired.
>Steve
Doug
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Violence and Recovery
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 06:45:29 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
D >I trust several Talismanites can rouse themselves to suitable (not
D >ad hominim but firm) replies to this ...post.
Dave -
The data I used in my posting was not of my own making. Most of it
came from Stanton Peele, who is a highly regarded expert in the area of
addiction studies. And many sociologists of religion have written about
the quasi-religious (some would leave off the "quasi") aspects of the
twelve-step movement. But, as a sociologist of religion, calling
something quasi-religious is, in itself, a compliment!
OTOH, it is true that Peele is not well liked by many folks in the
twelve-step movement. I once attended a TV taping in which he was the
principle guest, and many twelve-steppers in the audience heckled him.
Actually, though, he admits that some people have been helped by AA, NA,
etc. But he argues that there are now some alternatives which have a
broader overall success. And, to my knowledge, most addictionologists
would agree.
To me, that is the objective - helping people to be free of human
suffering. It is not focusing only one single perspective. As I see
it, one of our responsibilities is to independently investigating
reality, as free of attachments to commonly-held views as one can be,
and striving to use that knowledge to be of service to others.
To the Light,
Mark (Foster)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion * Full-Time College Faculty *
*Past (1995) Pres., Kansas Sociological Society * Owner, Baha'i Studies List *
*Director, Reality Sciences Institute * Co-Moderator, Another Baha'i List *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Staff, 3 CompuServe Religion Fora, incl. Baha'i Section Leader (72642,3105) *
*Chief Baha'i Chat Host, America Online (TFPMark) * mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us *
*Sysop, Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1) * mfoster@tyrell.net *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The Prophets of God have been the Servants of Reality; Their
Teachings constitute the science of reality." - `Abdu'l-Baha
"The sciences of today are bridges to reality; if then they lead not
to reality, naught remains but fruitless illusion." - `Abdu'l-Baha
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
From: "Gerald J. and Virginia P. Healy"
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 08:20:02 -0500
To: , talisman@indiana.edu,
Bahai-Discuss@bcca.org
Subject: Re: Re: Decentralization Help - talisman email compilation
On Wed, Jan 10, 1996 7:05:52 PM, Eric D. Pierce wrote:
>Hi, I now have a compilation of the October 1995
>talisman decentralization thread if anyone wants
>a copy of the file for their archives. Please
>specify if you want "plain text",
>
Please send in plain text. Many thanx, Eric, for all your archiving.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
Virginia Healy
Encinitas, California
email: healy@ pipeline.com
--
O God, cause us to see things as they really are - Hadith
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
=END=
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 96 09:21:12 EST
From: theo
Subject: Nima again!!
To: talisman@indiana.edu
hey, the address, nima@rt66.com isn't working, as it keeps coming back with an
unknown user.......tried twice. Maybe some other way besides to T'man??
theo
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: Browne and the Baha'i Faith
To: Sadra
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 96 9:25:12 EST
Cc: nineteen@onramp.net, Talisman@indiana.edu
My hypothesis (well, approach is more like it) in Initiates of
Theosophical Masters is to see Browne as more a
disciple/admirer of Jamal ad-Din "al-Afghani" than of any Babi
or Baha'i faction. Afghani had some youthful relationship with
the Shaykhis and the Babi exiles in Baghdad before proceeding
to travel in India, Russia, Ottoman regions, and developing his
esoteric synthesis of Platonism, Hinduism, Shi'ism, Masonry,
God knows what all (which appears to have passed into modern
Theosophy via his association with Blavatsky later).
Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l Baha were at times on cordial terms
with Afghani and his chief disciple Muhammad `Abduh. My point
is that Baha'is, seeing Babi, Baha'i and Azali history as
central to the story, fail to recognize that Afghani was the
one who really lit the fire in Browne's soul.
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Title anagrams
To: theos-l@vnet.net
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 96 10:10:45 EST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
The more I play with the anagram website, the more persuasive
is the idea of subliminal messages in book titles or personal
names. (e.g. Obtained a new son). The site is
http://www.infobahn.com/pages/anagram.html-- it explains itself
pretty well.
Looking at The Masters Revealed to see if anagrams indicated
anything about my unconscious intentions, or readers'
unconscious reactions, was definitely worthwhile. On the
positive side, the book attempted to convey "vaster leader
themes." And its approach to HPB was to "esteem vaster
herald." The book "reveals ethers tamed" and was written by an
author in whom "travel dreams seethe." But alas, it was
perceived by readers with a certain view of HPB as a "severe
damsel threat" because its implied conclusions about her
youthful escapades suggested that the "reveler tasted shame."
Unfortunately, the political emphasis and especially stories of
assassination plots "reveals hatred teems." Those with a
strong emotional loyalty to HPB were not likely to enjoy the
book because "melted hearts averse" to such an approach. I
hoped that the book might have "halted severe streams" of
entropic karma leading to silly conceptions of the Masters.
But I was up against the "hardest severe metal" of
institutional and personal dogmatism. This was because "leader
themes starve" under the searchlight of historical analysis.
The Secret Doctrine is pretty rich in anagrams too. Although
the author "cited recent others," one can "detect richer tones"
of spiritual comprehension in her than in those she cites.
Some might condemn Theosophy as a "rotten ethics creed" in
light of later developments. The fact of the SD's "triple
production" is indicated by "three edits concert."
So what about my next title? The Messages of Edgar Cayce
wouldn't fit, so without the "the," we have "dogma faces scary
geese." (HONK, HONK) "Frogs games cease decay" is pretty
inexplicable, but everything else is even more so. Perhaps it
is best to choose a title that doesn't, unbeknownst to one,
convey a host of subliminal messages.
=END=
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 96 23:54:48 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg"
To: nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
Cc: tan1@cornell.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: status quo and utopia
Dear Doug:
I very much liked your posting! About the War on Poverty, you said:
> But, OTOH, if it was set in motion by people who believe that the
> only way that any problem can be solved is to have the government
> take care of it; who believe that it doesn't matter what happens
> to the poor and needy:
There is a school of thought, originating as a response to
unemployment in England in the last century, that claims
that a modern "capitalist" economy needs unemployment as a
way to keep wages down. Then, to prevent the social instability
that would otherwise arise, the argument goes, the state must
provide a minimum income to alleviate the problems caused by
unemployment. This, and other forms of government support, are
quite common in Europe, and don't seem to have led to the
problem's of dependency that you throw light on.
What is different in the US, some argue, is that there is strong
resistance to providing hassle-free, non-degrading government
support -- strong views to the effect that able bodied men and
others who aren't working are morally unfit and therefore must
somehow be punished. In my opinion, this has led to a system
that cripples when it gives, as you have so graphically described.
But, please, contradict me if you think this incorrect.
You remark:
> If my remarks above sound cynical that is because they are
> --- or were until I became a Baha'i. I don't know the answers
> either, yet. Last spring when the "Prosperity of Humankind"
> came out I read it with interest. It all looked familiar and
> there was nothing *noticeable* new. It was OK. After putting
> it down I stopped an thought, "Hey boy, the House of Justice
> requests the Baha'i International Community to write this and my
> only thought is that it is OK. What am I missing here?" I went
> back and reread it four more times. Each time I saw more and
> more in it. What that document asks the world --- not just the
> Baha'is --- but the whole world --- to do is stop and rethink
> its ways of doing business.
Precisely my reaction too, but I didn't reread it carefully as you
did. I always meant too, though.
> I could easily quote great parts of it . . .
Any chance that you would do so? And if you were to explain how you
understand it along the lines of what you did above, I would be
delighted!
Yours sincerely,
Stephen R. Friberg
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Simple question
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 96 10:23:28 EST
Who is this alleged covenant-breaker leader? What have I
missed?
And while I'm at it--
The Baha'i administration attitude toward covenant breakers
reminds me of the proverbial elephant frightened of a mouse.
All the excessive rhetoric Baha'u'llah, and `Abdu'l Baha, and
even Shoghi Effendi used about the danger of cbs doesn't seem
so excessive in historical context. After all, you then had
the siblings of the heads of the Faith challenging their
authority, and the institutions were barely functional. So
extreme caution was certainly in order, as the threat was
severe. But now you have a global community of 5.5 million
faced by a handful of catastrophist weirdos in Montana etc., and
still reacting as if it were Baha vs. Yahya. Lots of people
talk about the need for the Faith to mature. That should start
from the top down, with leaders setting an example of
context-appropriate responses to covenant breakers, as opposed
to pull-out-all-the-stops, we-are-in-ultimate-danger baloney
every time a weirdo cultist pops up. I mean, really.
To take the references to cbs of the formative age as
encouraging rampant paranoia about those of today is just
inappropriate and silly. About as appropriate as if one were
to take Baha'u'llah's references to the "Queen of England" and
apply them to Elizabeth II without reference to the fact that
he was talking about Victoria.
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 96 08:40:20 PST
Subject: Re: Re: Relationship between violent history and vi
To: belove@sover.net, Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
On 29 Jan 1996 17:53:50 GMT Don R. Calkins wrote:
>The academic paper was presented to a national conference of family
>therapists in 1993 and received a standing ovation. It has since
been touted
>as largely destroying the philosophy of the recovery movement as a
viable
>theory.
>
I'd like a citation. This is very interesting. I've often felt that
the psychotherapy movement in the U.S. -- I call it a "movement" was
as much wishful thinking as orderly observation.
>The entire theory was based on faulty logical argument that said
that because
>most abusive individuals were abused as children, most abused
children will
>become abusers.
A. Miller's argument was a more complex argument. As I understand it,
it is not the abuse that "causes" more abuse, rather it is the denial
which often accompanies the abuse which is the culprit. The denial,
which protects the person from the pyschic aspect of the abuse, also
makes it impossible for a person to get in touch with his/her own
sense of justice. And people without a sense of justice tend also to
be without a capacity for empathy-- such people tend to be abusive.
It is of course an absurd idea; because if it were true then
>by this time all humanity would be abusive; it would be seen as
normal; and
>there would be no discussion of the issue. However when this was
pointed
>out, it was claimed that the people making the argument were
obviously in
>denial and therefore inacapable of making an informed judgement.
And, if the argument is simplified , then accusations of denial are
bound to occur.
>
>Regretably,the conclusions of most of these self-help books are not
based on
>quality research. Among the most common errors they make is to use
a
>self-selected sample instead of one that is random; and questions
that ensure
>the result expected by the reseearcher. These are techniques that
are used
>to great success in advertising also. Readers of these books need
to
>remember that anecdotal eveidence *never* constitutes a proof; but
this is
>often the only evidence given.
This claim seems to suffer from the vary thing is accuses.
Thanks, Don.
I would love to hear more about the research and the 1993 paper.
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/30/96
Time: 08:40:20
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 11:59:34 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Deathless in Paradise
Dear Friends ,
I was standing or rather sitting in the shower and laughing
outragously , which concerned my 16 year old son , at a series of images that
warmed my heart . These images had to do with Daethless Youth ( ok Im a
fanatic ) .
First , it occurred to me that the Truth is finally out . I hope this
does not violate any ethical principles. John describes himself as a
"midwesterner of philosophic temperment" . Ya right ! I know better he is a
CLOSET MYSTIC . The philosopher image is a cover to keep him incognito and
disguise his Ninja origins .(I dont know if that is tutles or (mer) maids.)
Second ) i saw Lora singing the latest musical rendering of "Deathless",
along with a few riffes from the "Ode" in the Omaha House of Worship during
a dawn / morning prayer gathering . Lo and behold who did I see there . Yes
our self -confessed non -morning person Juan Cole . Now of course I had to
hijack him with the asisatance of his wife and yes he grumped at me most of
the way there some stuff about getting to classes on time. I told him to be
quiet and "center(ing) his thoughts on God ." he , of course loved the event
and was later seen making secret contact to negotiate an appearance at the
Ann Arbor House of Worship . Brent was handling the legalities of all this
and sorting out who would be responsible for liability - spiritual and legal
once the revolution broke out in Ann Arbor .
It was a magfificent gathering Linda and Lua were already engaged in Sufi
dancing before the chanting began and well even though lua was pregnant Linda
kept her steady . Phillip was there weaving some strange version of "swing
dancng" into the sufi dance to the rise and fall of intonation . Stepehen B.
agreed with this massive smile , that yes this was a lot warmer than the
arctic . Stepehen F. , strange guy , he was , between verses, mumbling
something about the length of light waves refracted through the stain glass
windows ( yes we are going to have stained glass in Omaha ) and whether the
optic quality of themlight was as good as the auditory quality of the voice.
Ahang was smiling again . I was not sure if he was drunk , translating into
Persian or smiling because . . well .. it was allright because sandy had the
linguistic patterns charted for easy translation into a universaol language .
There ws Nima climbing the refracted light beams as a "stairway to heaven"
shouting back this isn't the Valey of Knowledge ! with Hannah yeling at
him to be careful ! Just like a mother I thought. David L .had joined Linda
and Lua and Phillip adding a new beat to the movement he had learned from
John Lee Hooker . Robert J. hung around the alcoves not sure , after all he
had heard about these Omaha people. Brent assured him that this was in fact
found in the Guardians instructions to America and Robert was last seen
feverishly composing poetry somewhere on the same stairway upon which Nima
disappeared . Sen was there blubbering something about it really is mermaids
and embarressing Sonja who knew that all along and gave Lora and Suzanne
that knowing smile that women give each other when they realize the guys
finally get it . Suzanne wondered what the big deal was anyway you mean
everyone did not know this ! Eric was frustrated that the computer system
was over loading fom the "vibes' and how was this to be properlyarchived to
which Richard L. respondec "farrr out man" that being after we drug him away
from the corner , along with Burl who was selling his book , Richard wa
hawking Baghdad by the Bay t-shirts and Richard H. told Eric don't worry i
will get this paper archived we can transcribe to disk later . Tony I was
worried about he sat speechless, overwhelmed, unable to respond to Payam's
questions about how to arrange the publishing rights . he feared that Steve
and Allison might negitiate this right down to New zealand , which I ust say
concerned me as well . Lora was nt going there . the party on the floor was
huge Bev and Don and flown in from Africa and headed directly for, Linda
and Luua who was now choreographing this major movement of "deathless youths"
and the nix of movement was heavenly or dizzying depending on your
perspective. Alma was re-arranging the chant in free verse which through a
couple folks off tune at first but Carmen re-assured her this too was o k in
the House of Worship . Derek poor fellow was still outside , I felt really
bad , as Brent was unable to find any precedent for cats being allowed in the
"House". When Lora got to the refrain "rejoice ! this is the Deathless
Maid. come with a mighty revolution" Jim H and Kevin jumped in the air fists
raised in the power salute chanting Yes yes I testify that thou art " and
Lori B . also not a morning person, was a little late and wondering what was
this stairway doing in the middle of the Temple. By this time though Juan
had forgotten about classes and told her to ask Nima . Trouble was nobody
could find him . You dont suppose that . . This place got crowded and so
warm then Dan and his friends showed up and wanted to swing and showed em
what a gay affair this really was and my wife Sue just said welcome home and
kept right on playing the piano at the enrance to our *House* - of Worship
that is . And me I just kept saying hey But first the Siyah Chal . All the
time there in a corner tapping his feet and muttering I knew this would
happen all along was John .
And best of all- right smack dab in the middle of the place-
suspended in air was Baha u llah and all she said in the language of
unsaying was a line from the tablet of Vision " Whereupon we smiled ."
warm regards ,
Terry
ps. See what happens when I stay up all night.
=END=
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 11:03:56 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: "Poetics Today" art., pt. 2
I now go into the literary techniques and structures apparent in the
Surah of Blood. - Juan Cole, History, Univ. of Michigan
Genre and Transformation
The first text that I wish to discuss, the Surah of Blood (Surat
ad-dam) occupies a special position among Baha'u'llah's writings, since
it was among the first in which he openly announced his mission to the
Babis from Edirne, and may be provisionally dated to winter-spring
1864. He addressed the Surah of Blood to a close companion then in
Iran, Muhammad "Nabil" Zarandi (d. 1892), saying that the truth could
now be revealed after remaining hidden for twenty years.* Prominent
supporters of Baha'u'llah such as Nabil typically shared their letters
from him with other local Babis, in hopes of attracting them to the
Baha'i religion. Such Baha'i missionaries often had some seminary
training or had lived in Iraq, and so could also translate orally the
Arabic letters of Baha'u'llah into Persian. The initial audience of such
texts was thus the Babi communities, mainly in Iraq and Iran, which in
the 1860s subsisted secretly in view of Qajar and clerical persecution
of them as heretics. The Babis included peasant villagers, and, in
urban areas, artisans, intellectuals, and merchants, of both sexes,
reflecting the religion's character as a mass movement. Although there
may have been as many as 100,000 Babis in 1849, by the 1860s
persecution had surely reduced their ranks considerably. In the space
of a few years, almost all these remaining Babis had come over to
Baha'u'llah's side. Baha'i emissaries shared his epistles with other
Iranians, as well, and between Baha'u'llah's initial declaration in 1863
and his death in 1892, tens of thousands of converts embraced the new
religion, coming from the ranks of mainline Shi`ism as well as from the
Shaykhi, Jewish and Zoroastrian communities. Baha'u'llah's letters
were copied out and circulated by professional copyists, were chanted
aloud by the literate in the community for the illiterate, glossed in
Persian informally, and, around 1890, began being printed for wider
distribution by Baha'is in Bombay.
Baha'u'llah, who received a visit from Nabil in Edirne not too
long before the Surah of Blood was composed, bids his disciple to
travel from city to city in Iran spreading news that Baha'u'llah was the
promised one of the Bab. Baha'u'llah asserts this station in two ways.
First, he speaks of himself as the archetypal return of the Bab himself.
Second, he uses a literary device to evoke an image of himself as the
stricken Imam Husayn, dying upon the plain of Karbala, speaking his
last words and revealing his true identity. As noted above, Shi`ites
commonly expected the return of the Imam Husayn after the rise of the
Mahdi, so most Babis would have immediately recognized the claim
implied by this imagery. Baha'u'llah was able to play on a very rich
repertoire of literary competencies in his audience, given the centrality
of the lament for Imam Husayn as a genre in Iranian and Shi`ite
culture. He was also able to create surprise and suspense by
occasionally contradicting the various expectations his use of the genre
would have aroused.
Baha'u'llah employs the martyrdom of Husayn at Karbala as an
extended metaphor for his own exiled to and persecution in Ottoman
Europe. He tells Nabil that if friends in Iran should ask about
Baha'u'llah, he should inform them that when he, Nabil, had departed
out of the prison city (Edirne) "Husayn" was lying on the ground, the
knee of the enemy on his chest and a sword raised above his head.
Nabil is depicted as having bent down to listen to the fallen Imam,
whose pitiable plaint breaks the heart of God himself. "Husayn" says
that he has revealed verses redolent of God, just as Joseph's coat
conveyed the smell of the young man to his father, Jacob, after his
kidnapping. If people perceive the perfume of the divine in these
verses, they should not respond by killing him. Husayn/Baha'u'llah
asserts that he kept a messianic secret for twenty years, but that God
then opened his lips, so he is now calling upon the Babis to recognize
him as the spiritual return of the Bab himself.
The hero pauses, overtaken with weakness from his war
wounds. Then the dying Husayn opens his lips and addresses God in
the following words:
Praise be to Thee, O Lord My God, for the wondrous revelations of
Thy inscrutable decree and the manifold woes and trials Thou hast
destined for Myself. At one time Thou didst deliver me into the hands
of Nimrod; at another Thou hast allowed Pharaoh's rod to persecute
Me. Thou, alone, canst estimate, through Thine all-encompassing
knowledge and the operation of Thy Will, the incalculable afflictions I
have suffered at their hands. Again Thou didst cast Me into the
prison-cell of the ungodly, for no reason except that I was moved to
whisper into the ears of the well-favored denizens of Thy Kingdom an
intimation of the vision with which Thou hadst, through Thy
knowledge, inspired Me, and revealed to Me its meaning through the
potency of Thy might. And again Thou didst decree that I be
beheaded by the sword of the infidel. Again I was crucified for having
unveiled to men's eyes the hidden gems of Thy glorious unity, for
having reavealed to them the wondrous signs of Thy sovereign and
everlasting power. How bitter the humiliations heaped upon Me, in a
subsequent age, on the plain of Karbila! How lonely did I feel amidst
Thy people! To what a state of helplessness was I reduced in that
land! Unsatisfied with such indignities, my persecutors decapitated
Me, and, carrying aloft My head from land to land paraded it before
the gaze of the unbelieving multitude, and deposited it on the seats of
the perverse and faithless. In a later age, I was suspended, and My
breast was made a target to the darts of the malicious cruelty of My
foes. My limbs were riddled with bullets and My body was torn
asunder. Finally, behold how, in this Day, My treacherous enemies
have leagued themselves against Me, and are continually plotting to
instill the venom of hate and malice into the souls of Thy servants.
With all their might they are scheming to accomplish their purpose . . .
Grievous as is My plight, O God, My Well-Beloved, I render thanks
unto Thee, and My Spirit is grateful for whatsoever hath befallen Me
in the path of Thy good-pleasure.*
Let us first consider some formal aspects of this text before
proceeding to questions of its deep structures and spiritual logic,
beginning with a distinction critics have made between direct
presentation and mediated narration. Direct presentation is primarily a
first-person, present-tense discourse, a subjective articulation that
makes evaluative judgments. Mediated narration, on the other hand,
tends to be third-person and set in the past and represents itself as an
objective statement that creates a universe of events and persons who
are, from that point of view, real.* The Surah of Blood combines
elements of both direct presentation and mediated narration, insofar as
it alludes to a series of stories, and, for the most part, employs the past
tense. But the narrative voice is first-person, and the final scene
(Baha'u'llah's own persecution) is set in the present. Of course, all
complex discourse involves both subjective enactment and a past-tense
narration; few novels, for instance, can avoid having elements of
both.* But here the mixture of direct presentation and mediated
narration appears to represent a deliberate attempt to obliterate the
normal boundaries the audience would erect between past and present
and between various divine emissaries in sacred history. The use of
the first-person point of view, and its maintenance across the entire
range of protagonists aims, as with all use of point of view to "impose
a story world upon a reader (or listener)." * All the prophets or holy
figures here are but manifestations of a single archetype, the Logos or
Word of God, and all speak with the same first-person voice. Sacred
history thus becomes a form of autobiography since the Logos itself is
represented as speaking from the latest locus of its manifestation,
Baha'u'llah. Moreover, the first-person voice shatters the conventions
of the stylized lament for Husayn, which had always been presented as
third-person, objective, mediated narration, but here becomes
subjective enactment.
The author also employs some conventions of the traditional
prose lament for the martyred Imam Husayn (often codified in books
known as Ten Sessions [Dah Majlis]), one chapter to be read on each
of the first ten days of the holy month of Muharram). Any nineteenth-
century Muslim audience east of the Red Sea would have known and
understood the conventions of this genre. Why, however, should
Baha'u'llah have chosen to declare his status as a messianic prophet
through the stylized mourning for Imam Husayn? To answer this
questionn, it will be helpful to think about not only what a genre is, but
what it does: "A genre, we might say, is a conventional function of
language, a particular relation to the world which serves as norm or
expectation to guide the reader in his encounter with the text."* We
most often know when we begin to read a work whether it is a tragedy
or a comedy, and our foreknowledge of its genre influences the way
we read it by raising specific expectations in us.
This set of expectations is a powerful tool in the hands of
authors who know how to use it, for they can employ the genre to
make their discourse seem natural. Naturalization through genre
means that what might otherwise appear to be strange or deviant is, by
being cast in a particular literary form, made to seem inevitable.*
Baha'u'llah's assertion that he was the promised one of the Bab, the
very voice of all the previous prophets and holy figures, would have
struck many ordinary nineteenth-century Middle Easterners as strange
and unacceptable. By appealing to the genre of the lamentation for
Husayn, however, Baha'u'llah could disarm that feeling of strangeness,
and naturalize his message. On the other hand, as noted above, some
features of the text (such as the use of the first person and of allegory)
deliberately violate the conventions of the genre for effect.
Baha'u'llah's identification with Husayn functioned at the level
of millenarian expectations, as well for Shi`ites believed that the Imam
Husayn would supernaturally return after the appearance of the Mahdi
(in addition to Christ, who would also, as we have seen have his
parousia then). Since Baha'u'llah's Babi contemporaries believed that
the Bab represented the coming of the Mahdi, many expected the
Imam Husayn himself to return soon. By the mid-1860s the Bab had
been dead for fifteen years and his religion had been massively
persecuted. Many yearned for the advent of Husayn to set things
aright. Finally, since we are dealing with a culture were names were
often thought to signify fate, it should be remembered that Baha'u'llah's
given name was Husayn `Ali. If, for his partisans, "Husayn" evoked
the return of the martyred Imam, "`Ali" referred to the return of the
Bab himself.
Another formal aspect of this text is its use of apostrophe.
Here, the character turns aside from the person or audience to whom
she or he was speaking and addresses someone else, often an invisible
or supernatural presence such as a spirit, a muse, or a god.* The text
of the Surah of Blood has the general framework of a letter to Nabil
Zarandi, as noted above. But the scene Baha'u'llah conjures up, of
Husayn's martyrdom and plaint to God, has the form of an apostrophe.
Baha'u'llah inserts Nabil into this dramatic scene, having him kneel to
listen to Husayn's dying words. But Husayn does not address Nabil.
He gazes skyward and delivers an apostrophe to God, reminding him
of the suffering he has imposed on the Eternal Prophet. Baha'u'llah,
the real speaker, thereby stresses his special relationship to the divine
for Nabil, the real audience. Just as a poet achieves a new identity by
addressing nature, pointing to his ability to evoke the images of
nature's power, so the prophet reconstitutes himself as a visionary by
calling upon God in the presence of humans.
The use of apostrophe also helps accomplish another key aim
of this passage, the annihilation of time. We have already seen this
feature at work in the mixing of presentation and narrative. The text
asserts the single identity of all the prophets and holy figures
mentioned. These persons, of course, lived centuries apart, and their
temporal discontinuity makes it difficult for the intellect to accept their
unity. One of apostrophe's main features, stressed by Culler, is that it
locates all the persons and things addressed in the speaker's time (the
present), thus evading the temporal constraints on typical story
sequences. Every person and event referred to in the apostrophe is
simultaneously present within the address. Lyric poets use this
technique to establish timelessness. Through apostrophe Baha'u'llah
obliterates the millennia separating Abraham from himself, thereby
revealing diverse holy figures to be facets of the same gem.
Let us turn now to the structure of the text.
The order of the patriarchs, prophets, and holy figures to which it
refers is generally but not consistently chronological. This lament
enumerates a set of oppositions, each of which is a transformation of
the preceding one. If we list them as they appear successively in the
discourse, they are:
God gives Nimrod power to oppress Abraham
God gives Pharaoh power to oppress Moses
God imprisons Joseph
God beheads John
God crucifies Jesus
people behead Husayn
people execute the Bab
enemies persecute Baha'u'llah
Several questions arise from this way of looking at the text.
First, why is the lament directed against God, and why is he depicted
as the archetypal persecutor? Baha'u'llah appears to blame God for his
sufferings in his advent as each of these holy figures, since God
allowed each nemesis to persecute him. God is said to have given
Abraham into Nimrod's hands, and Moses into Pharaoh's (in Muslim
tradition, as in the Jewish Haggadah, Nimrod persecuted Abraham.)*
In some instances the persecution is said to have been carried out by
the Deity himself, such as when God cast Joseph into prison, and
decreed John the Baptist's beheading. The wording implies that
Egyptian officials and Herod were only his tools. Baha'u'llah's Arabic
text also blames God for "lifting me up upon the cross" (arfa`tani ila
as-salib). The persecutions of Husayn, the Bab, and Baha'u'llah are
conducted by some agency, but the divine hand in them is not
specifically referred to and the oppressors are not directly named. This
increasing vagueness allows the oppressors of the later figures to be
depicted in general and therefore archetypal terms. Perhaps the later
generality also derives from the difficulty in assigning just one foe to
Baha'u'llah, who was persecuted by the Iranian and Ottoman
governments, the clergy of both major branches of Islam, and by Babi
partisans of his half-brother Azal, who rejected his claim to be the
promised one of the Bab. On the other hand, maybe specifically
naming his powerful persecutors would have rendered his letter to
Nabil too dangerous for circulation. The structure of this text
suggests that all persecutors of holy figures can be assimilated to
Pharaoh, regardless of their historical identity.
Surprisingly, at the end of the lament, Baha'u'llah thanks God
for whatever he decreed, recalling the religious ideas in the Book of
Job, wherein the righteous individual is deliberately tested by God,
who allows the wicked devil to persecute him; in order to survive the
test, the righteous man must remain devoted to God even when his
fate turns bitter. (In 1863, not long before composing this text,
Baha'u'llah had written a tablet or treatise that expatiated upon the Job
paradigm.* Although in other, similar passages, such prophetic
suffering is seen as a means of salvation for believers, here the theme
of one suffering for many does not emerge.
The remarkable feature of this text, and the reason I have
begun with it, is the poetic identification of all these prophets and holy
figures with one another and with Baha'u'llah himself. They are given
just one voice, all through history, whether speaking as Abraham or
Baha'u'llah. Their life stories, of suffering and persecution, however
different in specifics, are presented as fitting a universal paradigm.
God gives to a righteous man the power to reveal holy verses or to
interpret divine visions to the people. This manifestation of a
supernatural gift provokes powerful enemies, who oppress the
prophet, a tyranny which God is said to allow or even decree. The
oppression ends in martyrdom or imprisonment for the holy figure
(deprivation of life and deprivation of freedom being equivalent here).
The enemies, whether identified or implied, are typically kings.
Nimrod opposed Abraham, Pharaoh attacked Moses, Herod had John
the Baptist beheaded, Yazid, the Umayyad monarch, ordered his
armies to put down Husayn's rising in 680, and Nasiru'd-Din Shah (r.
1848-1896), sovereign of nineteenth-century Iran, presided over the
Iranian governments that executed the Bab and exiled Baha'u'llah. The
basic opposition thus established here is secular domination and
prophetic authority. Some questions seem to remain unanswered.
Why, exactly, does the advent of a prophet in a land enrage the
monarch and his subjects, and why are the kings seen as instruments of
God's will when they oppress the holy figure?
This text answers such questions only peripherally. Joseph is
represented as saying that he was incarcerated "for no reason except
that I was moved to whisper into the ears of the well-favored denizens
of Thy Kingdom an intimation of the vision with which Thou hadst,
through Thy knowledge, inspired Me, and revealed to me its meaning
through the potency of Thy might." Joseph merely recounted to those
who believed in the unknowability of God a small portion of the vision
God had granted him. The only other causal statement occurs in
connection with Jesus. He was crucified "for having unveiled to men's
eyes the hidden gems of Thy glorious unity." The prophet arouses
opposition because he brings visions from the world of the divine, and
because he affirms the unity of God. He bridges the barrier between
the natural world and the supernatural through his revelation. This
establishing of a connection between two planes of being, of course, is
the anomaly. The world of God and the world of human beings are
separate, and to bridge the two is unnatural. Whoever does so, the
text implies, is punished, both by God and by humans.
The oppression of the prophet mediates the contradiction set
up by the irruption, through him, of the divine into the secular world.
That God "commands" the punishment is, perhaps, a theological
statement of its inevitability. We find in this passage something more
than the testing of the righteous man reminiscent of the Job narrative.
The overtone is rather that of Isaiah's suffering servant, or, to draw on
another paradigm altogether, of Prometheus. For in Greek mythology
Prometheus stole the secret of fire from the gods and gave it to human
beings. He bridged the divine and human worlds, transferring
technology from the one to the other, for which the gods condemned
him to eternal suffering. In the Abrahamic religions, the intermediary
transfers not material technology but knowledge about the other world
that transforms spiritual life. The Abrahamic code is the opposite of
the Promethean one. Prometheus steals from the gods what they wish
to keep, and they punish him themselves for bridging the imperishable
and the mortal realms. In the Abrahamic religions God deliberately
sends the prophet to open a pathway between the two worlds. In
Baha'u'llah's text, God recognizes that this act will inevitably arouse
opposition from human beings, but allows them to mistreat the
prophet. He thereby tests the righteousness of the person whom he
has chosen as envoy.
The Job-like test, as intimated above, cannot be the entire
answer, however. If God has deliberately sent prophets into the
world, why does he essentially decree their torture and death? Here I
think we must look at a deep structure, the opposition in the text
between the immortal divine world and the perishable earthly one.
God exists in a realm of immortality, where death does not exist,
whereas humans live in a perishable world. If God sends messengers
from his immortal plane into the world of death, the very act is a death
sentence. The text suggests that communication between the two
worlds requires that an immortal principle such as the Logos or God's
Word, become mortal. This paradox is expressed poetically in the text
by the statement that Jesus was crucified because he revealed to men
knowledge about the nature of God. It was impossible for the Word
to communicate to humans without becoming flesh; and having so
become, it was condemned to die. God is ultimately responsible for
that death and suffering insofar as he commanded the revelation of
himself in the mortal world through Jesus and others.
The passage does not openly overtly indicate the reason for
which the people, and especially kings, arise to persecute those whom
God gives visions and revelations. but the implicit contradiction
between heavenly authority and earthly domination seems clear
enough. The prophet, as German sociologist Max Weber recognized,
claims authority on charismatic and religious bases. He will most
often, then, come into conflict with the secular bureaucracy and the
patrimonial state, which claims worldly domination on rational or
traditional grounds.* The advent of a prophet necessarily has political
implications, since it always involves the assertion of a new,
charismatic sort of authority within a society already ordered on
traditional or rational bases. Moreover, within the text the persecution
by the king of the prophet is a transformation of God's inscrutable
decree of suffering for his envoy. Simply by sending the Logos into
the human world, God willy-nilly places him in jeopardy. The king
punishes the prophet for bringing into his realm an alternative form of
authority. On one level, the text presents the king as a transformation
of (and functional equivalent to) God, and this helps explain why the
passage sometimes says God delivered the holy figure into the tyrant's
hands, sometimes says God himself decreed the prophet's death,
sometimes refers to the persecutors simply as "enemies" without
mentioning God. The structural identity of the persecutor, despite the
different meanings attached to each, makes it possible to transform
each into the other.
The passage may be diagrammed so:
Basic Opposition First Triad Second Triad
World of Immortality
The Testing God
Monarchical Authority
Martyred Prophets
Prophetic Authority
Logos made Mortal
Mortal Humans
World of Death
We begin with the central polarity between the imperishable world of
God and the realm of death. The paradox is not made explicit in this
text, but can be extrapolated from it. This implicit contradiction is first
encountered in a reformulation, in which the Logos or prophetic
intermediary bridges the two worlds. Thus, we have a personal God,
his people, and, between them, the High Prophets. These prophets
partake of the divine insofar as they have visions and knowledge of the
nature of God. But they partake of the human world insofar as they
can, unlike God, be persecuted, imprisoned, or killed. They thus
mediate between the two realms. God is depicted as testing or
assaying a pure being by sending him from his plane into that of
bloodthirsty human beings, who persecute him.
The triad of testing God, suffering prophet, and mortal humans
is now restated and transformed into another triad. Here it is said that
kings oppress the prophets. This statement has the same structure as
the image of the testing God, but carries a slightly different message.
It conveys rather the contradiction between secular domination and
prophetic authority, a contradiction mediated by the prophet's
imprisonment or death. Of course, the ability of human beings to
persecute the emissaries of God, despite the special links of the latter
with the divine, in itself poses a contradiction. Explaining why the
messiah was put to death rather than coming to power was a major
apologetic task of early Christian apologetics. Baha'u'llah also
addressed the issue of why the Bab, as the Mahdi or promised one of
Islam, was executed instead of establishing a Babi state.* First, he
averred that "sovereignty" refers to spiritual authority rather than
actual political domination, and that genuine sovereignty is achieved by
such figures in the long run, as their religions become established. But
this is a rational argument; the text at hand uses the oxymoronic figure
(combining two contradictory images) of the murdered prophet, the
betrayed messiah, precisely in order to synthesize the contradictory
images of the royal scepter and the prophetic staff.
The text speaks not about one prophet, but about all of them,
emphasizing the structural and spiritual unity of all the messengers of
God who have appeared in sacred history, as well as (in this regard) of
the minor prophets and the Imams who followed them. They have all
suffered from the same set of paradoxes, and are in metaphorical terms
ultimately identical. For this reason Baha'u'llah conjures up the image
of Imam Husayn, lying half-dead on Karbala's arid and bloodstained
plain. The dying Imam speaks of himself as Abraham, Moses, Joseph,
John and Jesus--all of whom came before him--as well as identifying
himself with the Bab and Baha'u'llah, who arose nearly twelve hundred
years later. The logic of rational argumentation would have to deny
any such identification. These were all specific, historical
personalities, each with his particular biography and prophetic
message, some of whom inspired discrete religions. In spiritual terms,
however, not only had the Qur'an already identified many of these
figures as prophets in a single line sent by God, but the Iranian
tradition of passion plays and of mourning sermons had further
grouped together and bestowed a rhetorical unity on, many of them. It
is to the latter genre that Baha'u'llah appeals, employing the logic of
spirituality very early in his independent ministry to emphasize his
identity with all the prophets and holy figures of the past. By means of
such techniques as addressing an apostrophe to God, Baha'u'llah
emphasized his station as a visionary to his audience, and by employing
an unusual combination of first-person narrative and past-tense
presentation, he aimed at de-emphasizing diachrony (linear time) to
convey a sense of synchrony (simultaneity) in sacred history. The
casting of prophetic biographies in similar form, with similar
structures, further underlined the unity of all earlier messengers of God
and founders of religions.
=END=
From: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 96 12:26:36 -0600 (CST)
Subject: BAHA'U'LLAH'S "
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Juan, I second Ahang's comments. Thank you. I look forward to your
next posts.
RA>What a magnificent gift! Thank you so very much for this superb
RA>translation, Juan.
> I have done a literary analysis of this passage, published in
> *Poetics Today,* which I could share if there is demand.
RA>Please do so. I for one would love to benefit from it.
Warmest greetings, Dann May, Philosophy, OK City Univ.
---
* WR 1.32 # 669 * I do not think that I know what I do not know. Socrates
=END=
From: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 96 12:26:40 -0600 (CST)
Subject: TOP TEN CD'S
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Gord, you reminded me of how much I love Rodrigo's quitar concertos. I
haven't played them in some time, but will do so today. I like your funeral
arrangements.
MC>2. Joaquin Rodrigo's "Concierto de Aranjuez - Fantasia Para un Genti
MC>which I never tire of and which I have told my family in the event o
MC>untimely demise I want played at my funeral, preferably by some of o
MC>musician friends, accompanied by a video I've prepared for such an
MC>occurance, of scenes from the Bay of Fundy, the Mountains of South
MC>Alberta & Eagles flying against a clear blue sky - and the aroma of
MC>grass and cedar.
MC>Gord.
Warmest greetings, Dann May, Philosophy, OK City Univ.
---
* WR 1.32 # 669 * "..true knowledge is a jewel, it will burn like a lamp.."
=END=
Date: 30 Jan 96 13:23:45 EST
From: Steven Scholl <73613.2712@compuserve.com>
To: Talisman
Subject: Deathless Youth
Dear John,
Profound thanks for providing the full translation of this remarkable work.
After reading your comments and excerpts from your Erotic Imagery paper I was
yearning for more. Wanted to be sure about the following passage, which I assume
has a typo in it:
Therefore, O lovers of His gracious beauty, O ye struck mad by
the air night unto His awful throne!
Am I correct that it should read "the air nigh unto His awful throne" ?
Also, what is the source for Ghulam al-Khuld? Is it easily available in a
published compilation? (I did not notice a source in "Erotic Imagery") I'd like
to get hold of the original to use in an article I am preparing on theophanic
imagination.
In Her Service,
Steve
PS: When you ask at the beginning that this not be copied, could you clarify. I
have a friend who was on Talisman but is off line temporarily and would like to
see this. Do you mind if we use this in our community devotions? If so, I am
sure that some of the friends will desire copies for their personal devotions.
=END=
From: Mark Bamford
To: "'Talisman'"
Subject: Clay of Love
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 11:33:21 -0800
While reading "The Hidden Words" the other day, one verse in particular =
sort of jumped out at me. From Arabic # 13 - "Out of the clay of love I =
molded thee...".
Interesting thought, describing "clay" (what we are "molded" from) as =
composed of "love", and not of some material substance as we would =
usually consider it.
My question... is this verse intended as more than merely symbolic =
imagery? Can we gain some insight from it into our "physical" Universe =
as well as just the more obvious "spiritual" one?
I have read where Abdu'l Baha describes "love" as the force that holds =
the Universe, or Creation, together - not just in spiritual terms, but =
almost as the physical "law" governing or binding atoms and molecules =
together. Many of the concepts scientists are only now beginning to =
understand seem to directly relate to this.
As I am sure many others have already pondered this question, perhaps =
Talisman could at the least direct my studies or possibly introduce as a =
new thread.
Yours (and new) in the Faith,
Mark Bamford
=END=
Date: 30 Jan 96 11:06:06 U
From: "Dan Orey"
Subject: Re: RE- sex and values
To: iskandar@ns.moran.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Reply to: RE>RE: sex and values
I have heard this too, and I believe it it used by many to justify their
homophobia. It has made it far too easy for the _less than informed _ to
connect sexual orientation and firmness in the covenant (As most readers here
know is something that I have been working very hard for folks to see that
these are very different things). - Daniel
--------------------------------------
Date: 1/28/96 8:07 PM
To: Dan Orey
From: iskandar@ns.moran.com
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Date: Sun, 28 Jan 96 22:50:31 PST
Subject: RE: sex and values
To: talisman@indiana.edu
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Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 22:00:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Jackson Armstrong-Ingram
To: talisman
Subject: sex and values
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Unknown to most Baha'is, anyone who has an acquaintance with gay and
lesbian (or indeed simply modern American) history who glances through
the volumes of The Baha'i World will find many individuals associated with
the faith who were known to live a homosexual (and indeed bisexual or
promiscuously heterosexual) lifestyle who are singled out for praise,
both editorial and in Guardian's letters. There are many more from whom
praise of the faith is reproduced to attest to its public acceptability.
The lifestyles of these individuals was in many cases an open secret in
certain social circles, circles which included members of the American
NSA.
When Shoghi Effendi felt that individuals were acting in a way that was
scandalous to the faith he made no bones about telling them so. For
example, there is a letter on his behalf to the widow of a prominent
Baha'i who was displeased by her late husband's will. They had not
really lived together as husband and wife for a long time and he simply
left her a life interest in one of his properties and a reasonable life
income. He left the bulk of his estate elsewhere. The letter on behalf
of the Guardian informs her that she knows perfectly well that the will
represents her husband's true wishes and that the sanctity of a will is a
principle of the faith; if she follows through on her threat to
make a scandal and challenge the will, Shoghi Effendi will expel her from
the faith.
A few years ago I was asked to present a paper at a conference on the
work of a late well-known Baha'i. I told the representative of the
conference committee that I felt the committee should be aware that there
was no way to discuss this individual's work with any intellectual
integrity without discussing his homosexual activities as they formed an
integral aspect of his literary development. (It is certainly not always
the case that an individual's private life is crucial to understanding
their art, but in this case it is. Also, the person had indicated before
his death that he wished that aspect of his work to be known.) If I gave
a paper, it would have to deal with these matters. I said that I was
telling them this as I had no wish to simply spring this material on
them unexpected and that it was
entirely up to the committee if they still wished to invite me. I also
mentioned that the non-Baha'i academics who were being invited to take
part in the conference were well aware of these facts. The committee
decided to cancel the conference. The individual's name and artistic
repute continues to be used to represent the faith.
It seems to me that it is of the essence of colonialism or imperialism to
appropriate products for your own benefit but deny the actuality or
authenticity of the life experience of the producers.
I don't think this implies that you have to
affirm their life experience on only their terms, but I do think it
may suggest that you should
not chose to benefit from it on only your own terms.
Jackson
I hope I am not considered rude for asking this question: Anyone knows, for a
fact, that Charles
Mason Remey was homosexual? I have heard from more than one source. Just
curious.
Bye!
Iskandar
-------------------------------------
Name: Iskandar Hai, M.D.
E-mail: iskandar@ns.moran.com
Date: 01/28/96
Time: 22:50:31
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
=END=
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 10:42:03 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: Euthanasia
Does anyone know if there has been any legislation or guidance from the
House on the subject of euthanasia, or assisted suicide for those who are 1)
terminally ill, AND 2) are in severe pain and suffering?
Arsalan J. Sadighi
"Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
that is clearly none of your business!" Battista
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 18:25:47 -0800 (PST)
From: David M Simmons
To: Brian Roberts
Cc: Talisman , "Baha'i Discuss"
Subject: Re: Attitudes to physical appearance
Friends,
Please read the following. Why are we hearing things like this?
Why are we picking on eachother? Substitute the words "gay" or "black" or
"disabled" or "Persian" or "academic" or "poor" or "ex-druggy" or
anything and we would be horrified. We're not in this religion to all be
Pepsi commercial models.
Baha'u'llah teaches unity in diversity.
Baha'u'llah teaches us to look for the positive and have a
sin-covering eye. We are supposed to make one another happy and uplifted,
not critique one another's personalities and appearances. Doesn't this
smack of "easy familiarity"?
We are all damaged goods. Let's look beyond that and get on with
teaching. Unless we stop bickering with one another we are not going to
be very convincing to others.
David Simmons
Spokane Valley, WA, USA
> As to experiences within the Baha'i community, or without for that matter.
> I've had more hassle from my Baha'i family than I've ever had from my
> friends, biological family or folks I worked with.
> Folks, fat is here to stay for the forseeable future!! There are many of
> us. We are part of the Baha'i community. We are part of the world. Unless
> our fellow believers can accept us as large flowers in the garden of life,
> without telling us how to prune our petals and leaves to fit it, we're never
> going to have entry by troops. Who would have told William Sears he was too
> fat?
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 96 18:24:31 PST
Subject: Re: authority rules
To: Talisman@indiana.edu, Alex Tavangar
On Mon, 29 Jan 1996 16:05:09 -0500 Alex Tavangar wrote:
we have just
>entered the twilight when the light is dim and many shadows appear
to be
>more real than they will turn out to be.
>
>Although the human rights topic is related to the discussion of
power, I was
>moved to only comment on Philips' statements about power.
>
>Best Regards,
>
>Alex B. Tavangar
>
Lovely answer. Thank you Alex
Philip
-----------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/29/96
Time: 18:24:31
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 96 01:57:54 UT
From: "Hannah E. Reinstein"
To: SBirkland@aol.com, "Robert Lee Green"
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: From Birkland 1/26
Dearest Talizens,
I suggest the analogy of an infectious sneeze in a crowded elevator. Without
beating the analogy to death--a tendency of mine--here's what I mean:
* The elevator is a very reliable and useful conveyance. It's been a great
service so far.
* The elevator is very crowded with people.
* An anonymous individual in the crowd carries a disease.
* Now that we're already onboard and it's moving, we've been made aware of
the serious risk of infection.
* Wisdom and experience tells us that an individual with the disease in
question will not have the consideration to cover their mouth when they
sneeze.
* In fact, they will desire to spread their infection.
* The sneeze may occur at any time.
* Nobody on the elevator wants to get sick.
* Getting on ANY public elevator entails such a possibility.
* We cannot flee the elevator. It is simply too valuable to us. We also
can't control or predict who gets on the elevator. It's a public conveyance.
I think that the scenario I've described is accurate. Personally, I'm glad
that I've taken my vitamins and am in good health. Still, I guess I'd want to
know who is going to sneeze so that I can protect myself more effectively.
Masks, anyone?
Hannah
The Artist Formerly Known As Cary
PS, I can't resist one more comment. There has to be a solution that doesn't
include outlawing elevators! Thank you :-)
-- H.R.
----------
From: owner-talisman@indiana.edu on behalf of Robert Lee Green
Sent: Monday, 29 January, 1996 10:28 AM
To: SBirkland@aol.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: From Birkland 1/26
On Fri, 26 Jan 1996 SBirkland@aol.com wrote:
Allah'u'Abha, Dear Stephen :-)
May we return to this please, :-)
> I have received a number of queries in response to my posting on 22 January
> 1996 regarding the presence on the Talisman list of a National Director of a
> group of Covenant-breakers. These queries revolve mainly around two points:
> 1) What might one do about it; and
I am also concerned with what "we" might do about it.
=END=
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 96 15:25:12 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: cats out
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Terry, I am so glad Derek was not able to come inside. I dread to think
what he would have accused us of had he been there.
Please get some rest. I will try to restrain John from posting anything more
until after the conference. It probably is not good for your health. Linda
=END=
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 13:47:14 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Browne and the Baha'i Faith
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "K. Paul Johnson" , "Sadra" ,
"Ramin Neshati"
Cc: "Talisman"
>My hypothesis (well, approach is more like it) in Initiates of
>Theosophical Masters is to see Browne as more a
>disciple/admirer of Jamal ad-Din "al-Afghani" than of any Babi
>or Baha'i faction. Afghani had some youthful relationship with
>the Shaykhis and the Babi exiles in Baghdad before proceeding
>to travel in India, Russia, Ottoman regions, and developing his
>esoteric synthesis of Platonism, Hinduism, Shi'ism, Masonry,
>God knows what all (which appears to have passed into modern
>Theosophy via his association with Blavatsky later).
>Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l Baha were at times on cordial terms
>with Afghani and his chief disciple Muhammad `Abduh. My point
>is that Baha'is, seeing Babi, Baha'i and Azali history as
>central to the story, fail to recognize that Afghani was the
>one who really lit the fire in Browne's soul.
Dear Paul,
My intent was not to investigate the conclusions of Browne but rather to
comment on his methodology as a scholar and a proffessional historian
observer/investigator. I believe this is where Nima, and also Ramin have
misunderstood me. In my exercise I only commented on what Browne,
himself, said he was doing. (Browne, " A Traveller's Narrative" vol. II
pp.364-5) I have no interest in what his secret motivations were or even
if he was a nationalist. What did strike me was the obvious fact that he
ignored scientific methodology. I believe there are some obvious
"biases" that he brings to the discussion which deface the quality of
his work; but I leave it to others to worry about who he was inspired by
or who he was in league with or whatever. I believe it to be of little
import if he became a Baha'i or sided with Azal. I believe it is the
LOGICAL OUTCOME OF HIS METHODOLOGY that he sided with Azal not any
esoteric or political reasons.
In writing that short piece I wanted talk about "Enlightened Scholarship"
and in choosing those two scholars, Browne and Balyuz, I wanted to create
a backdrop for the examination the of qualities that go into what I
consider to be the next step in scholarly development which I termed
"Empirical Selflessness"--thus, I was really talking about the philosophy
of scholarship.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 16:28:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Jackson Armstrong-Ingram
To: Dan Orey
Cc: talisman
Subject: Re: RE- sex and values
I want to agree with Dan that the case of Remey is used to imply a link
between 'deviant' sex and general spiritual unsoundness. Given the age
at which Remey was declared a covenant breaker it hardly seems likely
that his sexuality had much to do with it! Surely, the logic would be
that he was much more likely to have been sexually active, in whatever
way, when he was writing reams and reams on the importance of firmness in
the covenant. Are we then going to suggest than that sexuality
_contributed_ to his understanding?
The case of Remey is an appalling tragedy. He had given decades of
service, indeed his service continues in the use of his design work. But
he lived to the point where his mind betrayed him. There were other
notable Baha'is who became senile, who even made absurd claims as to
their 'station', but in those cases they either had Baha'i relatives or
were dependent on the faith for support and it was possible to protect
them from the failure of their faculties. There were two doctors who
assessed Remey's condition and came to the conclusion that he suffering
from senile dementia but there was no way to control his actions and he
was being exploited by a number of others who had rather unsavory
histories. The Hands were
very reluctant to declare him a covenant breaker and it was only after
repeated urging from the US NSA that they did so. The NSA felt that
there was no other way to deal with a situation that had produced great
confusion in the community and given the parameters of the situation this
was probably the only thing that could be done.
Jackson
=END=
Subject: resubscribe
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 96 14:14:59 PST
From: Brian and Ann Miller
Dear John W. and friends,
I have not received any mail from you folks in several days which
suggests to me that my request to unsubscribe a few weeks ago (which I sent to
the wrong address) was processed. I may also have some problem with my e-mail
account. In any case, please keep sending me the massive numbers of posts you
garrulous and thoughtful folks like to produce.
Warm regards,
Brian Miller [briann@cruzio.com]
--
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 18:27:27 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: Deathless Youth 2
Dear John and all : When was this written ? I know you mentioned the
Baghdad period in your erotic imagery post but is their any evidence as to
when in that time frame .?
I have spent the night comparing lines of this to "Ode of the Dove" ,
"Halih, Halih " and " Tablet of Vision " . In the words of the song "I didn't
sleep at all last night , couldn't get you off my mind."
Did Steve know about this and been holding out on me ? :)
About five this morning I could hear the music in this , the song of the
Heavenly Dove and I am not sure where i went but every where I - my soul ?
turned there was this Maiden and more . It was an overpowering, radiant image
- being? Erotic and sooo soooo much more . It was like a , I dont know a
bi sexual image of Bahau llah that left me stunned and nearly gasping for
breathe quite literally . Nima , it was "In the Presence of Being. " It is
delicious . I have danced and laughed and cried my way throufgh this for
several hours now .
I thought of Chris Buck speaking of Gibbon on the rise of Christianity
and it creating a new experience of God and our relationship to that Being
beyond Being and among ourselves . Would not does not this kind of work of
Bahau llah's create a new experience ? Imagine this being chanted, sung in
the House of Worship and everyone knows they are welcome and I mean everyone.
What if the day started with this ? Folks, LIFE would and will be different
.
Oh well .responsible adult that I am I will start thinking about work
Hmmm maybe , maybe not . ! :) :)
warmest regards and thanks for this gem ,
Terry
s
=END=
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 17:01:15 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Jackson Armstrong-Ingram
Cc: Dan Orey , talisman
Subject: Remey's nuttiness
Dear Jackson & talizens--
I've spoken to a few people who remember Mason Remey while he was still
relatively sane. A few of them have confided that among all the Hands of
that era Mason Remey displayed an incredible level of "in-your-face"
type of haughty arrogance, constantly putting on airs of superiority and
what not, long, long before he went senile and was declared a cb. One or two
pictures I've seen of the man, with Mr. Remey always in the center of the
group, characteristically sticking his chest so far out it's not
even funny, seems to confirm what these people are saying. I wonder if
this is the prime reason why the Guardian kept him close -- i.e. 'keep
your friends close but your enemies even closer' -- because he somehow
knew, due to Mason's borderline pathological proclivities, that he would
completely lose it after he, Shoghi Effendi, was gone.
Nima
**************************************************************
* Paradox is a characteristic of truth. What communis opinio *
* has of truth is surely no more than an elementary deposit *
* of generalizing partial understanding, related to truth *
* even as sulphurous fumes are to lightning. *
* *
* --From the correspondence of Count Paul von Wartenburg *
* and Wilhelm Dilthey *
**************************************************************
=END=
Date: 30 Jan 96 16:30:56 U
From: "Dan Orey"
Subject: FWD>RE- FW- Chicago Tribune
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: gjertsen@harborside.com, 103275.1472@compuserve.com, slynch@interserv.com
GatorMail-Q FWD>RE: FW- Chicago Tribune on
Dear Talispersons - I want to share a post that was forwarded to me for
talisman from a very dear friend - Daniel ( who thanks his dear friends in
Masstrict for their kind offer)
--------------------------------------
THE CHICAGO TRIBUNE
Thursday, January 25, 1996
Source: Stephen Chapman.
Section: COMMENTARY
UNSPEAKABLE UNIONS? - THE FLIMSY CASE AGAINST GAY MARRIAGE
A specter is haunting conservatives: gay marriage. The state of Hawaii is
moving toward sanctioning homosexual unions, and that prospect has induced
something approaching apoplexy on the right. Some opponents regard this as
one of the defining political issues of the day. They want other states to
refuse to recognize such marriages--a departure from the custom that a
marriage transacted in one state is accepted by all.
But why is there such resistance? This is not a zero-sum game. If
homosexuals win the right to wed, the victory doesn't come at the expense of
heterosexuals, who will retain all the pleasures, prerogatives and duties
that come with matrimony.
Much of the opposition stems from religious objections. "We just believe
it's plain immoral," said Tim Wildmon, vice president of the American Family
Association. "It goes against the Holy Scriptures."
It may come as a revelation to Wildmon that American law and the 10
Commandments are two different things. We call ourselves a free society
partly because we permit all sorts of things that "go against the Holy
Scriptures"--blasphemy, fornication, making graven images, Sabbath-breaking,
coveting your neighbor's maidservant and more.
The supposed moral offense that upsets conservatives is sexual relations
between gays--which is already permitted nearly everywhere. If Americans can
tolerate gay sex, why not gay marriage?
Conservatives, of course, do not willingly tolerate gay sex. But some of
their thinkers have tried to come up with reasons to oppose gay marriage
that
are somewhat more persuasive than invoking Leviticus. The effort only
demonstrates the emptiness of their cause. What they are engaged in is not
reasoning but rationalization.
The primary objection from Christian Action Network president Martin
Mawyer is that if gays gain the right to wed, "marriage as an institution
will be rendered meaningless." Society encourages marriage, he says, solely
because "it is likely to produce a greater good, namely children, who are
necessary for any society's existence."
But not everyone who gets married has children, and not everyone who has
children gets married. We allow unions between people who don't want
children
and people who can't have children.
Marriage, conservatives argue, provides a vital framework for raising
children. But gay couples also raise children--either children one of them
has produced or children they have adopted. There is no law to stop a
lesbian
mother from bringing up her own son in a household that includes her female
partner.
Robert Knight of the Family Research Council says homosexual conduct has
to be discouraged to preserve traditional marriages, which are precious
because "the stability they bring to a community benefits all." But allowing
gay marriage would advance the same interest by discouraging promiscuity and
encouraging commitment--the opposite of what current policy does. If it's
good for society when straight couples settle down in permanent, legally
sanctioned relationships, why is it bad when gay couples do likewise?
Because it would set a terrible precedent, according to Amherst College
professor Hadley Arkes. Next thing you know, he warns, we'll have to
allow
marriage between men and boys, between fathers and daughters, even
between
multiple partners. Knight goes further, fearing that some men will want to
marry dogs.
Here we have passed into outright hallucination. Why does legalizing gay
marriage lead to man-boy unions, any more than allowing heterosexual
marriage
leads to man-girl unions? Children may not marry for a simple reason that is
irrelevant to gay marriage: They can't give true consent.
As for incestuous pairings, they would doubtless remain illegal because
they undermine a taboo that is crucial to the protection of children and
because they carry health risks for potential offspring.
Polygamy? If two women are happy to marry the same man and live together
in a family, subject to the same strictures as two-partner marriages, there
is no obvious reason to stop them. But such arrangements would be rare.
There
are lots of unmarried gay couples in America but very few unmarried men
cohabiting with several women.
These arguments serve mainly to obscure the issue, not illuminate it.
Conservatives say they abhor gay marriage because they value marriage. The
truth is they abhor gay marriage because they abhor gays.
PHOTO: Illustration by David Csicsko.
=END=
From: Dave10018@aol.com
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 20:29:40 -0500
To: mfoster@tyrell.net, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Violence and Recovery
In a message dated 96-01-30 07:49:56 EST, mfoster@tyrell.net (Mark A. Foster)
writes:
>Subj: Violence and Recovery
>Date: 96-01-30 07:49:56 EST
>From: mfoster@tyrell.net (Mark A. Foster)
>Sender: owner-talisman@indiana.edu
>To: talisman@indiana.edu
>
>To: talisman@indiana.edu
>
>
>D >I trust several Talismanites can rouse themselves to suitable (not
>D >ad hominim but firm) replies to this ...post.
>
> Dave -
>
Mark,
the above is my last word on this thread. I put in enough time on it last
year(or was it two years ago?) I am no more impressed with your viewpoint on
this subject now than last time and have no wish to be drawn into a
discussion of it with you. Phillip Belove seems prepared to discuss it. I do
not want to rewrite old posts.
To the Backyard,
David Taylor
=END=
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 21:28:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Jonah Winters
To: talisman
Subject: Talisman anagrams
Please forgive the wasted (or not, depending on your mood) use of
bandwidth for this... I went to the site K. Paul Johnson mentioned.
"Talisman" was too small for anything funny so I chose "talisman indiana
edu." I wasn't going to send this at first, but some of the answers are just
too priceless! I propose either #15 or #86 as talisman's new name...
-Jonah
AURA MAN'S ORGY (YOUR ANAGRAMS)
Anagrams of no more than 3 words made from the 18 letters in
``talisman indiana edu''
_________________________________________________________________
1. Anemia audits inland
2. Adults anemia indian
3. Alumnae indian staid
4. Sainted manual india
5. Sainted alumna india
6. Saluted indian amain
7. Detains manual india
8. Detains alumna india
9. Disdain alumnae anti
10. Indiana tedium nasal
11. Indiana sultan media
12. Indiana sultan amide
13. Indiana sultan aimed
14. Indiana saline datum
15. Indiana minute salad
16. Indiana manual edits
17. Indiana manual diets
18. Indiana manual sited
19. Indiana manual tides
20. Indiana mailed aunts
21. Indiana autism alden
22. Indiana autism laden
23. Indiana austin medal
24. Indiana austin lamed
25. Indiana alumni stead
26. Indiana alumni dates
27. Indiana alumni sated
28. Indiana alumna edits
29. Indiana alumna diets
30. Indiana alumna sited
31. Indiana alumna tides
32. Indiana aliens datum
33. Indiana mislead aunt
34. Indiana sainted alum
35. Indiana saluted main
36. Indiana detains alum
37. Indians anemia adult
38. Indians amelia daunt
39. Indians adamant lieu
40. Inmates indiana dual
41. Instead manual india
42. Instead alumna india
43. Instead indiana alum
44. Italian seaman undid
45. Italian sudden amain
46. Italian unnamed aids
47. Italian unnamed said
48. Italian mundane aids
49. Italian mundane said
50. Annuals tidied amain
51. Stained manual india
52. Stained alumna india
53. Stained indiana alum
54. Stamina inland adieu
55. Stamina indiana duel
56. Animate indians dual
57. Unaided manila satin
58. Unaided manila saint
59. Unaided manila stain
60. Unaided animal satin
61. Unaided animal saint
62. Unaided animal stain
63. Unaided italian mans
64. Unaided stamina nail
65. Unaided stamina lain
66. Unaided animals anti
67. Manuals detain india
68. Manuals indiana edit
69. Manuals indiana diet
70. Manuals indiana tied
71. Manuals indiana tide
72. Italians aided annum
73. Italians unnamed aid
74. Italians mundane aid
75. Italians unaided man
76. Simulate indiana and
77. Mainland adieu satin
78. Mainland adieu saint
79. Mainland audit anise
80. Mainland stain adieu
81. Mainland untied asia
82. Mainland united asia
83. Mainland austin aide
84. Mainland austin idea
85. Maintain adieu lands
86. Maintain dialed anus
87. Maladies indian aunt
88. Maladies indiana nut
89. Animates indian dual
90. Insulate indiana dam
91. Insulate indiana mad
92. Animated inlaid anus
93. Inanimate undid alas
94. Simulated indiana an
95. Insinuate manila add
96. Insinuate manila dad
97. Insinuate animal add
98. Insinuate animal dad
99. Insulated indiana am
100. Maintains adieu land
101. Insinuated anal amid
102. Insinuated maid anal
103. Insinuated amain lad
104. Insinuated manila ad
105. Insinuated animal ad
106. Maintained anus dial
107. Maintained laid anus
_________________________________________________________________
=END=
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 96 18:59:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: various
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Words truly fail me to express my profound appreciation to Profs
Cole and Walbridge for sharing so generously their brilliant
translation work of our divine Beloved's Revelation. I have no
doubt that each of these translation postings represented many
hours of labor of love by these two dear souls. May the Ancient
Beauty continue to confirm such labor and devotion.
I am also deeply grateful for John's posting on Baha'u'llah's use
of Maiden Imagery which included several excellent new
translations and very learned expositions on these allegorical
expressions. I think it should definitely be sent for
publication in BSB as it represents a major contribution (though
I humbly suggest retitling to something less provocative and
editing out a couple of references to sexuality).
Steven asked about the location of the Tablet of Ghulam-i Khuld
(Deathless/Immortal Youth). One printing is in Kalimat Press'
"Risalih Ayyam Tis`ih", p 92-9. If folks don't have a copy of
this book, you're missing out on one of the finest collection of
the most important Tablets ever assembled. I don't know if its
still in print, but contact Tony Lee for your copy today!
I know folks are getting tired of me invoking Quddus at every
turn, but to my knowledge, the term Ghulam-i Khuld originates
with Him (and not Baha'u'llah). On three separate occasions, He
used this term: Once in referring to the Bab (as Baha'u'llah
used this term), once to Baha'u'llah Himself (Who He calls the
code term Hadrat-i Ta) and once to Himself (Quddus).
This term, Ghulam (Youth), I believe, is formulated to contrast
against the term "pir" (old) used in Islamic literature to refer
to spiritually enlightened.
Juan, does this term appear in Shaykhi writings?
Also, does anyone know if in the Writings of the Bab, the term
Ghulam appears as a reference to Himself?
On a different subject, Nima's comment on Remey reminded me of
hearing that several of the Hands during the time of the Guardian
had actually grown sensitive to Remey's arrogance and desire for
leadership. For example, they had noted that whenever the Hands
followed the beloved Guardian to the Shrines, Remey would try to
position himself ahead of the other Hands, right behind the
Guardian. One a couple of occasions, Samandari and Khadem locked
arms to prevent Remey passing by to get ahead of them, which made
him rather aggravated.
One last thought: I like to recommend that we use Juan Cole's
brilliant article (which he has posted 2/3 of it so far) as a
basis for our collective deepening on this topic of Baha'u'llah's
Revelation. I know many of us are reading, printing, and saving
it on disk and probably forwarding to our friends, but I believe
a much richer experience awaits us if we actually pause and ask
him questions about "Surah of Blood", his translation and the
article which elaborates on some literary aspects of it. (I
could be wrong, but I think it would be a wiser investment of our
time and resources than some other topics discussed here. Here
we have the unique opportunity to partake of learnings of one of
most deepened students of the Cause, and what we are doing...
we're exchanging music titles!)
ahang.
=END=
[end of 1/30/96 session]
Talisman emails received 1/31/96
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 96 19:46 PST
To: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Dear Burl Column
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Burl,
>Why is it that I can not find some of the words used in Talisman even in my
>'BIG' dictionary? I feel so stupid for not getting half the things said
>around here. Do you think I should go back to school and get an education or
>should I drop out of Talisman and get a life?
>
>Miserably yours,
>
>Anonymous
Dear Anonymous:
Allow me to set your little mind at ease. Sometimes when we feel
stupid, we need a reality check. That's why you wisely turned to Mr. Burl,
who informs you that the reason you feel stupid is because you are, relative
to the impotentarian erudentured elite, stupid as a pound of plankton. So
are those BIG stupid dictionaries. You need Mr. Burl's new book "The
Complete Guide to Obscure Words Used on Talisman" forthcoming from
Jungian/Restless Press. It features a special introduction by K. Paul
Johnson entitled "Words Theosophists Know That You Don't" and a concice
addenda by Bruce Burrell,"Words with no Absolute Meaning," plus a charted
historical mapping of Juan Ricardo Cole's favorite adjectives "Social
Democracy: Building a Liberal Vocabulary," excerpts from Linda Walbridg's
essay "Miffed at the Mufti: Islam and Feminist Rage," Derek Cockshut's
anti-intellectual essay, "Divine Economy: Jesus Saves, Moses Invests,
Mohammad Withholds Interest, and Baha'u'llah pays 9%," and a handy phrase by
phrase translation of often used terms, for example:
1. "I am entertaining a neo-platonic construct" = "I have started dating a
Stevedore, but we are just friends."
As for getting a life -- forget it, it is too late. No one else on Talisman
has one, except in theory, and all theories are subject to revision.
Warmest regards,
Mr. Burl
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
Unlimited!
********************************************************
=END=
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 06:52:40+030
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: Survey
Dear Friends:
I have thought on these questions to try and evaluate what effect Talisman
has had on me.
The most obvious one is that I found myself arguing on the side of patience,
forbearance and forgivness, and realized that although I had "resigned" from
the Faith, I really had not...was still as much a Baha'i as before, and like
it or not, would just have to work through the difficulties I was having.
Sort of like a Gnu in full flight, only to stop and realize that the tail
she was running away from was still behind her. By looking over my
shoulder, Don has taken a somewhat distant interest, but none the less an
interest, in resolving his issues with the Faith. Last week he wrote to the
National Spiritual Assembly of Uganda asking that he be considered part of
the Baha'i Community. Since we have had no contact with Baha'i's, other
than our good friend Vi, I feel this would not have happened were it not for
Talisman. Talisman was the catalyst.
We are still in spiritual traction, and therefore not fully "functional".
There is still a lot of healing to do, and there is no one we feel we can
work with here on that score...no therapist...perhaps that is as it should
be. We are forced to turn more to prayers and the writings, and, therefore,
we are appreciating Juans translations immensely.
New cyber faces are now part of my life, some of them I feel very open to,
others not. I respond to warmth more than dissection and argument over
ideas and challenged prejudices, but it has made me stop and think, and to
examine my own ideas and shift them a bit here and there, and get some of
the crap out of the way. It has also helped me to have a voice, which was
lost for a long time. When Don and I are active again, it will be with love
and conviction, and will be in an avenue which is true to my own heart. It
will not be in an intellectual circle...not because it is not valuable, but
because it is not my area of strength to offer. But I will continue to sit
gratefully on the outer edge and ask guidance when I need it.
Teaching....not yet. Still busy teaching myself.
I find myself listening less and less to the volley's going on over issues.
I "graze" them, and if there is something that causes a response in my
heart, I "listen up"; but there is more head than soul stuff going on right
now. This does not mean the discussions are not important, they are to
some...but marginally to me.
Hope this meets your survey requirements,
Love,
Bev.
=END=
From: alma@indirect.com
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 20:57:05 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Dancing in the Temple
Dear Talisfriends,
Terry's vision of us almost makes me decide to stay up all night to see if I
would as pleasantly day dream. But the joyous gathering he depicts raises a
question in my mind. And that is is dancing proper in the Mashriq-i Adhkar?
Reason I ask is that I may belong to the only community in the United States
where dancing -- any kind of dancing - is explicitly forbidden in a Baha'i
Center because that Center is an embryonic Temple.
Seems as if some years ago, there was a 'coffee house' type of entertainment
there - that is a gathering of Baha'is and non Baha'is where there was
singing and dancing, etc. Seems as if one woman performed a belly dance
(which I understand can be a spiritual dance) and this disturbed one of the
members of the community who had come from Iran that he wrote to the NSA and
received a ruling that there was to be NO dancing in the Center itself.
Recently, the LSA asked National about this ruling. Was it still in effect?
And the answer was yes. I have yet to see the ruling though I have been
promised a copy. And I may never see the question as it was most likely made
over the phone.
Now Phoenix is not likely to break out in dance during a Worship Service
there. At the moment they, including the LSA, don't understand what I mean
by a Worship Service. Don't we have Feast and start it with prayers? But
even so, this ruling disturbs me. And it does have a practical effect on
some youth activities there.
So I wonder what has been the experience of others in this area, especially
those who live under the NSA of the USA. And I wonder if anyone has any
suggestions for action. I am thinking of myself writing the NSA when as and
if I ever get the ruling in writing.
In peace,
Alma
To tread the path of Love Alma Engels
Is no mere game. alma@indirect.com
For only one
Out of many thousands
Can persevere in His Love. (Tahirih)
=END=
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 13:56:26 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Dr. Burl's Joy of Words
Dear Dr. Burl:
A friend of mine told me that Talisman was like a magic jewel that
you hold up and it wards off anti-intellectuals, but I'm not so sure.
Could you tell me what Talisman *really* means?
Confused
=END=
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 00:28:37 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand
To: Ahang Rabbani
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Deepening
Dear friends, i would like to second dear Mr. Rabbani's suggestion that
we take the opportunity to deepen on these wonderful Tablets which Dr.
Cole and Dr. Walbridge have so kindly shared with us.
i was so deeply moved reading this Tablets and feel they can only be
fully appreciated and further understood in consultation with the dear
friends.
(But i must say that i did indeed enjoy reading everyone's book and CD
favourites - especially the books - In fact i spent an hour tonight
making a list of the books submitted so i could pick some of them up!)
Regards,
Cheshmak Farhoumand
"I expect to pass through this world but once. Any good therefore that i
can show my fellow creature, let me do it now. Let me not defer or
neglect it, for i shall not pass this way again. . . "
Author Unknown
=END=
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 13:59:15 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: [Levanon Amikam : note - middle east development]
From an Israeli friend of mine:
Stephen F.
---------------
Received: by will.ntt.jp (4.1/core*brl.s7) with TCP; Wed, 31 Jan 96 13:55:25 JST
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 13:55:24 JST
From: Levanon Amikam
To: friberg
Subject: note - middle east development
Message-Id:
FIGURE IN SAUDI MONARCHY: ISRAEL NO LONGER VIEWED AS HOSTILE
A senior figure in the Saudi monarchy said Israel is an established fact
in the Middle East and that Saudi Arabia no longer views Israel as a hostil=
e
state, MA'ARIV reported.
The statement was joined by the Saudi government's chief mufti, Sheik
Abdullah al-Baz, who issued an Islamic religious ruling stating, "Israel is
not an enemy." The Sheik also demonstrated through tracts in the Koran tha=
t
it is permissible to make pilgrimage to Al-Aksa Mosque in the Old City of
Jerusalem. =20
The newspaper reported that Jordanian figures who recently visited Saudi
Arabia received an official blessing from the Saudi regime on their step
forward.
=END=
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 23:39:25 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Manifestation of Names
Talizens--
Here's a quote from Ibn `Arabi I'm thinking of using for my presentation
at Bosch in a few weeks. It's so awesome I have to share it. Anyone's who's
read `Abdu'l-Baha's *Sharh-i Kuntu Kanzan Makhfiyan* (Commentary on the
"Hidden Treasure") will immediately recognize the idea being presented here.
Since our resident faqih, Sen McGlinn, invoked the notion of each person
being a Manifestation of one Divine Name earlier today in one of his
posts, I thought I'd pass along this quote from the Shaykh al-Akbar; it's
simply priceless. Enjoy!
"Every person is a place for the manifestation of one or other Name and
he is under the dispensation of that Name. Majesty (jalal), Beauty
(jamal), Guidance (hadi), Misguidance (mudill), all these, whichever they
be, are his straight paths. In the matter of beliefs it is also so. If
somebody's belief were to be different from the belief of another, he is
still on the right path because of the name for which he is essentially a
place of manifestation, and his quality of straight direction is that. For
instance the accuracy of the bow is judged by the curve. To be in error
is right according to God's name mudill; even though His name hadi knows
it is erroneous, it is still considered right. Thus the gnostic (aref
bi-llah), because he knows the meaning of all this, does not interfere
with other people's religions."
(Lubbul Lub [Kernel of the Kernel], trans Isma'il Hakki Bursevi, Beshara
(Gloucestershire: 1981), p. 27).
Regards,
Nima
=END=
From: ptamas@bcon.com (Peter Tamas)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Fwd: Clay of Love
Date: 31 Jan 1996 00:12:34 GMT
It may be a bit ignorant, but I wonder what happens if we overlay on this the
discussion of creation being the interaction of the active and that which is
its
recipient (bad paraphrase...apologies) and extend this with some of the more
techincal interpretations of Plato's discussion of the forms, love and the
Good
...e.g. that which is so eloquently presented in Socrates' soliloquy in the
Symposium and attributed to a female prophetess.
-Peter
While reading "The Hidden Words" the other day, one verse in particular =
sort of jumped out at me. From Arabic # 13 - "Out of the clay of love I =
molded thee...".
Interesting thought, describing "clay" (what we are "molded" from) as =
composed of "love", and not of some material substance as we would =
usually consider it.
My question... is this verse intended as more than merely symbolic =
imagery? Can we gain some insight from it into our "physical" Universe =
as well as just the more obvious "spiritual" one?
I have read where Abdu'l Baha describes "love" as the force that holds =
the Universe, or Creation, together - not just in spiritual terms, but =
almost as the physical "law" governing or binding atoms and molecules =
together. Many of the concepts scientists are only now beginning to =
understand seem to directly relate to this.
As I am sure many others have already pondered this question, perhaps =
Talisman could at the least direct my studies or possibly introduce as a =
new thread.
Yours (and new) in the Faith,
Mark Bamford
=END=
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 22:30:32 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: carmen@UCLA.EDU (Carmen Mathenge)
Subject: Re: Top Ten Homeless (long post)
Burl, ol' buddy,
>Pretty lame stuff, compared to all you smarty pants out there who were
>weaned while reading Plato and Socrates. If they had those in paperback
>when I was a kid, they were not on prominent display at the five and dime.
>But if you folks were all reading such high-brow material, who bought all
>those copies of "I, the Jury" by Mickey Spillane?
Well, I swear to God this is the truth! I read David Copperfield at the age
of 10, when I had the measles or something and had to stay in bed for a
week. I still remember it too, Mr. Micawber, David, Agnes, Dora, the 'umble
Uriah Heep, and all. And when I was a teenager I read more Dickens, plus
Sir Walter Scott, and James Fenimore Cooper, and The Ring of the Niebelungs,
cover to cover. (I can't think why--you couldn't pay me to crack one of
them now!) I think I was desperate, because I'd already read all the trash
I could get my hands on, and the library had to get my mother's permission
when I was 11 to let me check out books from the adult section because I'd
finished everything in the children's.
But if it will make you feel any better, I admit to all the Albert Payson
Terhune books (Lad-A-Dog, etc.), Agatha Christie (100 or so?), a couple of
dozen gushy romantic novels by Frances Parkinson Keyes, everything ever
written by Louisa May Alcott (several times) . . . let's see, all of Pearl
S. Buck (no, she's not in the trash category), most of Rex Stout (until I
got tired of checking out books and realizing halfway through I had already
read them), everything by Elizabeth Goudge, and virtually everything else
the library in Boise had in the way of fiction, except for Emile Zola, who
my mother wouldn't let me read because she thought he was pornographic. (Is
it, I never did read one? I think she threatened me with revoking my
library privileges. Well, she thought Catcher in the Rye was porn too, but
she couldn't stop that because it was assigned in my English class.) I never
did stoop so low as Mickey Spillane--well, I mean you have to draw the line
somewhere!--but I did read lots of Irving Wallace and Morris West.
I was in trouble from day 1 all the way through school for reading library
books during class. Considered a cardinal sin by most of my teachers who
seemed to have some ridiculous idea that I should listen to, or (horrors!)
even participate in, class discussions. I was mostly a B student except in
music and languages--never did homework because I was too busy reading
novels. Took me until after 20 years of marriage to realize all that
"happily ever after" stuff was a lie; Prince Charming had given me a cursory
glance and passed on to someone who didn't have her nose in a book. Should
have taken lessons from Linda--nobody told me about red lace and Shi'ite
monsters. Oh well, too late now . . .
Carmen
99999999999999999999999999999999999999
Carmen Mathenge
Lawndale, California, USA
99999999999999999999999999999999999999
=END=
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 23:47:59 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Manifestation of Names.
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Nima
We actually have in the bookshop works on Ibn Arabi I fully agree with
you excellence upon excellence.
One small point as that scoundrel Culhane the former Mystic from Omaha
is coming .By the way there is no truth in the rumour Culhane is
sleeping in the childrens tree house at the conference, it is not a
rumour. All presenters
naturally will be promoting at the Mystical conference the day all true
Mystics wish to keep namely 'Adam Smith Day'.Sherman points out as well
he does not allow any form of prejudice at Bosch except towards 'Wild
Pete'. whom Sherman and the Mighty Shadow almost nailed today. That is
to be the subject of the first story in the Sherman and Bobo stories,
the training of Bobo aka the Mighty Shadow. It has pussy cats dashing
in the rain in and out of water mains, up trees and falls into wet
muddy water. All to save the miserable group who intend to exclude Cats
from worship as well as Economists from the madness of Wild Pete.
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 02:44:53 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Dancing (in Paradise )
Dear Alma ,
Your question is a good one and I would suppose based on comments of
Abdul Baha and the Guardian that "dancing " in the House of Worship ,
literally would be inappropriate . As for Bahia centers I would disagree with
with an administrative decision that they are embryonic Houses . Quite the
contrary they are not "sacred space" in the sense of a Hose of Worship . I
think it reflects a the carry over of what is called a "life -denying
puritanism in the Prosperity of Humankind statement .
The real issue for me and the image bvehind ot eithin the post is this
: " In reality the radiant pure hearts are the Mashriqu l Adhkar . .'
Abdul Baha .
This bathtub version of a vision was just that . The *dance * took
place in my heart and in my soul and all those who were present for that
dance in my heart ( and many more that I neglected to mention) are and were
mirrored you are all the Mashriqu l Adhkar . In that sense no decision
administrative or otherwise can take it away . "Acts of worship must be
conducted according to the Book . " says Baha u llah. In other words the
human heart is the sanctified dweling place for the descent , the *dance * of
the Beloved and "our mission is to seize and possess the hearts of men .
Upon them the eyes of Baha are fastened . "
So it does not matter if the outward dance is not conducted within the
central shrine of the Mashriqul Adhkar - the House of Worship - it takes
place in the outer alcoves and grounds of the Mashriq . The central shrine
that *House * of indescribable holiness well the only thinh I can imagine or
have come close to experiencing is to be struck dumb by its radiant glory as
I was earlier that morning. One could not move in that place let alone dance.
The dance takes place in the circular grounds as pathway to that shrine - on
the stairway to heaven . And in that place and in that dance and in my heart
you and the others were , in a most remarkable and real way, present.
I believe from the depths of my soul that when we as Bahais understand
this and experience it we will have the "model " better "than the world
already has " as the Guardian said . then we will see entry by troops . Not
to mention some of the most ecstatic dancing the world has ever seen . As I
said in the piece everyone is welcome in this home , that is our *House *- of
Worship .
warmest regards,
terry
p.s. Linda I still cant sleep ! !
=END=
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 23:52:48 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Dr Burl
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear confused.
People on Talisman are trying to become Economists as a result it is
difficult sometimes to understand what is going on . So send a large
check to the DR Burl and Uncle Derek Patagonia holiday fund. Please
remember to support the Adam Smth Day.
Uncle Derek, DR Burl best friend
=END=
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 06:35:04 -0700
To: TLCULHANE@aol.com, talisman@indiana.edu
From: alma@indirect.com (Alma Engels)
Subject: Re: Dancing (in Paradise )
Dear Terry,
Think you are saying we have refound the Holy of Holies of the Temple of the
Jews. Only now we are all High Priests and we may enter every day once we
find the way.
In peace and with Baha'i love,
Alma
At 02:44 AM 1/31/96 -0500, TLCULHANE@aol.com wrote:
> Dear Alma ,
>
> Your question is a good one and I would suppose based on comments of
>Abdul Baha and the Guardian that "dancing " in the House of Worship ,
>literally would be inappropriate . As for Bahia centers I would disagree with
>with an administrative decision that they are embryonic Houses . Quite the
>contrary they are not "sacred space" in the sense of a Hose of Worship . I
>think it reflects a the carry over of what is called a "life -denying
> puritanism in the Prosperity of Humankind statement .
>
> The real issue for me and the image bvehind ot eithin the post is this
> : " In reality the radiant pure hearts are the Mashriqu l Adhkar . .'
> Abdul Baha .
>
> This bathtub version of a vision was just that . The *dance * took
>place in my heart and in my soul and all those who were present for that
>dance in my heart ( and many more that I neglected to mention) are and were
>mirrored you are all the Mashriqu l Adhkar . In that sense no decision
>administrative or otherwise can take it away . "Acts of worship must be
>conducted according to the Book . " says Baha u llah. In other words the
>human heart is the sanctified dweling place for the descent , the *dance * of
>the Beloved and "our mission is to seize and possess the hearts of men .
>Upon them the eyes of Baha are fastened . "
>
> So it does not matter if the outward dance is not conducted within the
>central shrine of the Mashriqul Adhkar - the House of Worship - it takes
>place in the outer alcoves and grounds of the Mashriq . The central shrine
>that *House * of indescribable holiness well the only thinh I can imagine or
>have come close to experiencing is to be struck dumb by its radiant glory as
>I was earlier that morning. One could not move in that place let alone dance.
>The dance takes place in the circular grounds as pathway to that shrine - on
>the stairway to heaven . And in that place and in that dance and in my heart
>you and the others were , in a most remarkable and real way, present.
>
> I believe from the depths of my soul that when we as Bahais understand
>this and experience it we will have the "model " better "than the world
>already has " as the Guardian said . then we will see entry by troops . Not
>to mention some of the most ecstatic dancing the world has ever seen . As I
>said in the piece everyone is welcome in this home , that is our *House *- of
>Worship .
>
> warmest regards,
> terry
>
>p.s. Linda I still cant sleep ! !
>
>
To tread the path of Love Alma Engels
Is no mere game. alma@indirect.com
For only one
Out of many thousands
Can persevere in His Love. (Tahirih)
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 09:33:00 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: Manifestations of Names
Dear Nima ,
I love the Ibn Arabi quote ! yes it reminds me of Abdul Baha's
_Commentary_ . Now I would say "What are the sociopolitical implications of
such a view of human reality and how would a society , especially one which
is global in span and claims to the status of universality , how would such a
society or *Commonwealth* organize irself . What *form * is most fitting for
reflecting and developing the mystic truth underlying that spiritual reality
?
I think now we can begin to see how and why Bahah u llah was so
profoundly radical - getting to the root oof , foundations , and profpundly
conservative as in creating *order*. I maintain that His mystical writings
are reflected in His ethical and political writings . The Irfan Republic.
The internal Bahai commmunity reflects these in their own way . The Admin .
Order and the Mashriqu l Adhkar are outward forms of Bahau llahs mystical
"batin " . If we want to understand the nature and purpose , proper
functioning of these *Twin Houses* we need to understand , I maintain , Baha
u lah's mystical theosophy . Otherwise we degenerate into another version of
what the Guardian critized , another band 0f "traditional defenders of
religious orthodoxy ."
What cha think ?
warm regards ,
Terry
=END=
From: Zaid Lundberg
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: unsubscribe
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 16:08:36 +0100
unsubscribe
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Revised Bill of Rights (fwd)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 10:02:59 EST
According to K. Paul Johnson:
From pjohnson Wed Jan 31 14:58:37 1996
From: pjohnson (K. Paul Johnson)
Message-Id: <199601311458.JAA28888@leo.vsla.edu>
Subject: Revised Bill of Rights (fwd)
To: theos-l@vnet.net
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 9:58:34 EST
Cc: pjohnson@leo.vsla.edu
X-Mailer: PENELM [version 2.3.1 PL11]
Here's my letter to John Algeo to be sent tomorrow by snail
mail:
John Algeo, Editor
The American Theosophist'
P.O. Box 270
Wheaton, IL 60189-0270
Dear Editor:
The recent by-laws election inspired voluminous discussion on
the Internet discussioon list theos-l. The discussion rapidly
escalated beyond the immediate issues at hand, and delved into
the underlying reasons for some members' mistrust of any
expanded authority of the international and national
headquarters over local groups and individual members. Indeed,
this discussion produced an outpouring of horror stories of
perceived abuses of power, experienced or witnessed by theos-l
subscribers in places as diverse as Denmark, Canada, England,
Boston, and Wheaton. A general consensus emerged which was not
seriously challenged by anyone on the list, although many may
have had silent reservations.
It is felt by many that the intellectual, spiritual and
political freedoms intended by the Founders have been seriously
eroded by 20th-century leaders at all levels of the Society.
At the heart of this problem is the domination of the Society's
governance and discourse by the Esoteric Section. In her
Original Programme manuscript, HPB wrote that the Founders
believed that "the greatest spirit of free research untrammeled
by anyone or anything, had to be encouraged."(BCW VIII:148)
Fourteen years later, Annie Besant received a letter signed by
K.H., warning that "The T.S. and its members are slowly
manufacturing a creed...Beware an Esoteric Popery...Misleading
secrecy has given the death blow to numerous organizations.
The cant about `Masters' must be silently but firmly put down.
Let the devotion and service be to that Supreme Spirit alone of
which one is a part." Unfortunately, a widespread perception
among members of long standing, as emergent in theos-l
discussions, is that misleading secrecy has become the norm in
the Theosophical Society, which is dominated by a small group
regarding itself as the chosen instrument of the Masters.
Rather than list the grievances which emerged in the course of
a free-wheeling international discussion, I will simply comment
that every item on the list proposed below is based on the wish
to prevent recurrence of abuses of power reported during the
discussion.
110 years ago HPB acknowledged the need for reforms, and the
presence of a "disease in the Theosophical Society," but
lamented that although many members could diagnose the malady,
no one produced and practicable solutions. Inspired by this
passage and by many complaints voiced by members, I wrote the
following proposed Theosophical Bill of Rights:
>
> 1. The freedom of each member, study center, lodge and national
> section to pursue the Society's three objects according to the
> broad, inclusive original program shall on no account be
> abridged.
> 2. Each member shall be entitled to full information access and
> cooperation in research, to the extent of staff time and
> ability, without regard to the topic of Theosophical research.
> 3. Each member shall have the right to use TS-owned facilities
> without being obliged to adhere to lifestyle restrictions of
> any other organization.
> 4. No disciplinary action shall be taken against any member,
> study center, lodge or national section, without full
> disclosure of all charges against them and the opportunity to
> answer said charges in the presence of their accuser(s).
> 5. Each challenger for elective office shall be entitled to the
> same information access and election resources available to
> incumbents, and shall suffer no reprisals for choosing to run
for office.
> 6. No elected official at any level shall be entitled to ban or
> permanently remove materials from any Theosophical library on
> doctrinal grounds.
> 7. There shall be no interference by any other organization in
> the governance of the Society or any unit thereof.
> 8. Members have the right to uncensored news of local,
> national and international events in the Theosophical movement,
> which shall be published in official society publications.
> Equal access shall be allowed to opposing sides in
> controversial matters.
> 9. Any member, lodge, study center or national section shall be
> entitled to file a grievance in the case of perceived violation
> of these rights. Grievances shall be adjudicated at the
> relevant level (local, national, international) by a
> three-member panel to be chosen as follows: one member by
> complainant, one member by defendant, one member by the
> forementioned two. Panel judgments shall be publicly reported to the
> membership at whatever level is involved, unless all parties
> choose to let them remain private.
>
My request to you as editor is that this letter be published
with an invitation for member comment, which the national board
may then consider. At issue is not so much adoption of any or
all of these suggestions as given, but the need for some kind
of guarantees that recent by-laws changes will not be used to
further erode the intellectual, spiritual and political
freedoms intended by the Founders.
In closing, I wish to respond to some anticipated objections to
this letter. It may be said that those who reported perceived
abuses of power on theos-l are a disgruntled few, who have
heard only one side of the various controversies. My response
is to point out that with information access rigidly controlled
by the Society's leaders, everyone remains more or less in the
dark about many controversies, and that the best cure for this
confusion is free and open discussion by all parties. It may
also be suggested that my own motivation for presenting these
proposals is disgruntlement at negative reviews of The Masters
Revealed you have written for this journal and Theosophical
History. It is true that I was dismayed to find aspects of my work so
harshly condemned, so soon after feeling privately reassured
and encouraged by you. It is also disappointing that your AT
review condemned the book for its "flawed thesis" without ever
naming that thesis, later defined in the second review in a way
quite alien to my real intentions. That review's conclusion
that "the view one takes of Blavatsky's Masters...reflects
one's metaphysical assumptions about reality and one's
experience of the reality they represent, rather than a
conclusion based on documented fact and reason" dovetails
rather neatly with the international president's opinion,
stated in an interview printed in the current AT, that "Most
people who speak of the Masters do not realize the sacredness
of such beings. In a sense they are perfected human beings; in
a sense they are beyond that" and that therefore discussion or
even thinking of their human qualities is "a desecration."
This makes me wonder how much my work has been condemned on the
basis of E.S. interests rather than T.S. principles; conflicts
between the two were repeatedly noted in the theos-l
discussions that provoked my Bill of Rights proposal. But
apart from any of the personalities and complaints that
produced these proposed guarantees, I invite you, the board and
members to evaluate them on their own merits. As we enter an
era of unrestricted information, a new model is needed to replace the
old top-down paradigm of Theosophical communication and
authority. It is hoped that these proposed rights may point to
some possible reforms needed to see the Society safely into the
21st century.
Sincerely and fraternally yours,
Paul Johnson
=END=
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 10:28:31 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: dancing in the streets
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Alma and Terry, your postings reminded me of our pilgrimage (Perhaps John
mentioned this earlier - anyway, you'll have to hear it from me). We were in
the House of Abbud (I think) towards the end of a day of one damn spiritual
high after another. The group leaders were tired so that they withdrew into
another room thinking it was safe to let the pilgrims alone for awhile. Hah!
A couple of us (but i won't mention exactly who) started to sing a waltz and
then an Italian couple, moved by the wonderful singing of certained unnamed
pilgrims, began to dance. They were soon joined by others who also felt the
need to glide across the floor.
There were a few gasps from more restrained types and after a few minutes the
guides returned to tell us that this was highly inappropriate. Those who were
involved, of course, never bought this line and continued in a pretty giddy
state for the rest of the day and evening.
I still can't imagine how anyone could have not sung or danced on that
occasion. It seemed like a perfectly natural thing to do.
Perhaps the good Drs. Burl and Derek would want to comment on the polite way of
making pilgrimage. I understand that both of them have doctoral degrees in
"manners" along with degrees in many other fields, so that they find themselves
qualified to comment on nearly anything that is discussed on Talisman. What a
treasure they are. Linda
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Remey`s nuttiness
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 10:47:58 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Nima -
I have heard the same sorts of stories about Mason Remey, including
from a few people who knew him quite well. A number of years ago, I read
some of the Tablets of the Master addressed to him (included in _Star of
the West). It was interesting to see how much of `Abdu'l-Baha's council
was for Remey to remain firm in the Covenant.
To the Light,
Mark (Foster)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion * Full-Time College Faculty *
*Past (1995) Pres., Kansas Sociological Society * Owner, Baha'i Studies List *
*Director, Reality Sciences Institute * Co-Moderator, Another Baha'i List *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Staff, 3 CompuServe Religion Fora, incl. Baha'i Section Leader (72642,3105) *
*Chief Baha'i Chat Host, America Online (TFPMark) * mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us *
*Sysop, Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1) * mfoster@tyrell.net *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The Prophets of God have been the Servants of Reality; Their
Teachings constitute the science of reality." - `Abdu'l-Baha
"The sciences of today are bridges to reality; if then they lead not
to reality, naught remains but fruitless illusion." - `Abdu'l-Baha
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 11:39:40 -0500 (EST)
From: Jackson Armstrong-Ingram
To: Sadra
Cc: talisman
Subject: Re: Remey
As you probably know Alzheimer's type conditions tend to exaggerate
previously existing elements of character. Remey certainly had a
tendency to come up with an idea, often perfectly reasonable to start,
and if that idea was opposed to then commit himself to defending more
and more extreme versions of it until he had gone completely beyond all
bounds. He was from a class and time that expected to receive
deference and many of the Baha'is from a similar background were the same.
I think we have to be careful about the element of projection in how
people talk about the past. Whatever else he may have been, Remey was
greatly admired and respected. There would not have been such a problem
if he had not been. People who are viewed simply as unpleasant,
arrogant, demanding old nutters don't usually attract much of a
constituency. He spent a great deal of time with Shoghi Effendi because
he was needed for design work. He also did a great deal of travel as the
Guardian's representative. I think we also have to be careful not to let
the fact of someone's covenant breaking (however this came about) lead us
into being unjust. The Guardian said that it was important for Baha'is
to give due credit to covenant breakers for the service they had rendered
to the faith previously and to accord them credit for whatever good they
did generally afterward the break. Abdu'l-Baha emphasized that avoidance
should be with love to be acceptable, to avoid with hate was not
acceptable. In the case of Remey, whose design work still pervades the
visual presentation of the faith and who gave extensive writing and
teaching service to the faith (as well as doing dumb things like all of
us), we do not give credit where it is due.
Personally, I have met two Hands. One was an absolutely delightful and
charming person. The other was rude, arrogant, overbearing and
thoroughly unpleasant, not just to me but to everyone around. I would not
presume to use the occasions on
which I met them as a basis to judge their general character let alone
spiritual soundness. I can, however, examine the record of their many
services to the cause which stands irrespective of whatever impression
they may have made in personal interaction.
Jackson
=END=
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 08:55:28 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Ground Transportation from SJ to Bosch?
Hello all , sorry to take up bandwidth on this, but who, if anyone is taking
care of, / organizing/ orchestration (oh, big word for me, lol) of getting
the folks from San Jose airport to Bosch... Where, when, I know why, how
and who will be there. I need to purchase my ticket 21 days in advance for
the cheap ( I could of used the word inexpensive) seats. Please email me
privately.
ADthanksVANCE <----that is thanks in advance
Margreet
=END=
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 17:52:53 +0000
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: S.N.Lambden@newcastle.ac.uk (Stephen Lambden)
Subject: TABLETS OF BAHA'U'LLAH 1
HI TALISMANITES,
In recent months I have been to Israel (Wailing wall+ Church of
Holy Sepulchre+ Masjid al-Aqsa (Bookshop) + 3 Day Pilgrimage, etc) and
Canada (visited Jack MacLean, Chris Buck, Todd Lawson and others) and am
just about back in the land of the living (in Newcastle, England) and
almost ready to operate again in cyberspace -- having ploughed through most
of several thousand email and snailmail communications; sorry to any of
those I have'nt responded to yet. Will soon say something about the Divine
Maiden and the position of BSB and Abha' (forthcoming and reprinted
periodicals).
A good many recent Talisman postings have been wonderful
contributions to Baha'i scholarship. Many thanks especially to Juan Cole
and John Walbridge for their marvellous translations and to Ahang for his
learned notes on matters poertaining to Quddus and Aschi.
Recently Marguerite Gipson fowarded an enquiry about *liqa'* (the
"meeting"/ "encounter" [with God]) relative to the poem of Baha'u'llah, the
*Rashh-i `ama'* (loosely, "Sprinling of the Cloud of Unknowing"). A while
back I posted my provisional translation of this poem. I will now post this
again with some intrductory notes. Thereafter a chronologically organized
series of notes about and sometimes (partial or complete) provisional
translations of the major titled Tablets of Baha'u'llah of the Iraq
("Baghdad") period (1852/3-1863). I will set this process going with the
pre-Baghdad *Rashh-i `ama'* and the complete translation of the *Lawh-i
kull al-ta`am* -- I posted half of my revised prov. trans. in December.
*RASHH-I `AMA' BRIEF INTRODUCTION*
Baha'u'llah's *Rash-i `ama'* is a Persian poem of 19 couplets which
takes its name from the opening words of its first hemistich. Widely
regarded by Baha'is as the earliest extant example of divine revelation
(Baha'i scripture) it was composed during the time of its author's
imprisonment in the *Siyah Chal* ("Black Pit") dungeon in Tehran; that is,
at some time during the latter half of the year 1852 CE (= early 1269 AH).
It was, Baha'u'llah in his later writings has stated, during the "year
nine" (= 1269 AH/ Oct. 15th 1852 -> October 4th 1853) that he underwent
profound mystical experiences and resolved to attempt to regenerte the
demoralised Babi community.
It seems likely, as most Baha'i writers have maintained, that the
*Rash-i `ama'* is expressive of Baha'u'llah's own assumption of a leading
role within the Babi community. To what extent. however, Baha'u'llah
therein alludes to the theophanic status he later explicitly claimed (from
the early 1860's
CE) is not entirely clear bearing in mind the extravagant claims made by
many leading Babis in the 1850's, the poetic nature of this work, and the
possibility that he is representing himself as a channel through which the
celestial and eschatological Babi spirit flows. He certainly at this stage
makes no explicit claim to be "Him whom God would make manifest" (man
yuzhiruhu'llah, the expected Babi messiah) and could be understood to be
representing himself as a leading Babi rather than claiming to be the
inaugurator of a new (though at this stage secret) religious dispensation.
One would probably not be going too far if one supposed that in the
*Rash-i `ama'* the `messianic secret' of Baha'u'llah is all but divulged;
though in cryptic, esoteric terms.
In the translaton no attempt has been made to be anything but as
literalistic as possible. I may well have completely misunderstood the
sense of a number of the more abstruse parts of this beautiful poem and
would be delighted to receive alternative renderings.
Thus, for the critical attention of the linguistic polymaths on
Talisman there follows my inadequate attempt to render the earliest extant
work of Baha'u'llah, the *Rashh-i `ama'* ("Sprinkling of the Cloud of
Unknowing") (1852/3 CE) in a slightly revised provisional translation which
first appeared more than a decade ago with a commentary in the *Baha'i
Studies Bulletin* 3:2 (Newcastle upon Tyne, September 1984).I hope to
revise it (and the commentary thereon) extensively and republish it over
the next year or so. Forgive the inadequacies in my paltry attempt to
translate a hauntingly beautiful poem -- but wise me up about them; spell
out errors, etc. While I cannot now explain all the reasons for translating
the way I have -- and there are numerous possibilities (see BSB 3:2) -- I
would be really pleased to be informed of real howlers. The Persian text
translated is that printed in *Ma'ida-yi asmani* 4:184-6 -- not a critical
edition; readings from another mss (in INBAMC 36:460-1) are indicated by an
asterisk at the end of a hemistich; details cannoit be gone into here.
*RASHH-I `AMA' PROVISIONAL TRANSLATION*
He is God:
[l] On account of Our Rapture the Sprinkling of the Cloud of Unknowing
raineth down; The Mystery of Fidelity poureth forth from Our Melody.
[2] The Musk of Cathay hath appeared from the Zephyr;
This Sweet-Scented Breeze wafteth down from Our Ringlet.
[3] The Ornamented Sun hath arisen from the Countenance of the True One;
See thou that the Mystery of Reality raineth down from Our Face!
[4] Out of a Wave of the Ocean of the Meeting with God the Sea of Purity
hath cried out;* On account of Our Rapture this Precious Favour poureth
forth.
[5] At the sight of the Rose was the Delight of the Wine apparent;
This Sweet Cipher raineth down in view of the warbling of the letter "R".
[6] The Stunning Trump! The Celestial Rapture!
In the Firmament of Heaven they twain rain down as a Single Blast.
[7] On account of Our Visage the dispensation of "I am He" hath commenced;*
The cycle of "He is He" poureth forth from Our Trumpet-Blast .
[8] From the Goblet of the Heart the Kawthar of Reality hath appeared;
Out of the Vermilion Lips of Baha' this Cup of Honey poureth forth.
[9] The "Day of God" hath been fully realised on account of the Effulgence
of the Lord;
On account of the lament of the letter "T" this New Beauty poureth forth.
[10] Observe the Glorious Overflowing! Behold the Beclouded Sprinkling !
Through the Melody of God all this poureth forth as a single Song.
[11] Observe the Eternal Moon! Behold the Pristine Ascendent Sun!
See thou that the Pure Breast sprinkleth forth from the Elevated Throne!
[12] Observe the Blessed Palm-Tree! Behold the Warbling of the Dove!
See thou that the All-Glorious Lament raineth down from the Brilliancy of
Purity!
[13] Observe the Iraqi Harmony! Behold the Hijazi Tambourine!
See thou that the Rapture of "no" raineth down from the Divine Hand! *
[14] Observe the Deified Countenance! Behold the God-like Maiden!
See thou that the Terrestrial Effulgence raineth down from the Mystery of
the Cloud of Unknowing!
[15] Observe the All-Enduring Face! Behold the Visage of the Cupbearer!
See thou that the Sparkling Draught raineth down from Our Goblet!
[16] Observe the Fire of Moses! Behold the Snow-White Brightness!
See thou that the Sinaitic Bosom raineth down from the Radiant Palm.
[17] Observe the Intoxicating Lament! Behold the Orchard of Ecstasy!
See thou that the Rapture of Existence raineth down from the Court of the
Meeting with God!
[18] Observe the letter "H"-like Rosebud! Behold the letter "B"-like Ringlet!
See thou that the Timbre of the Flute reverberateth through the Hollow-Reed
of Baha'! *
[19] This is the Overflowing Theophany! This is the Sprinkling of
Manifestation!*
This is the Lament of the Heavenly Birds which sprinkleth out from the
Fount of Mystical Death.
* * * * * * *
Stephen N. Lambden
44 Queens Road, Jesmond,
Newcastle upon Tyne, NE2 2PQ
England. U.K.
Voice/Fax. +44 [0] 191. 2818597
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Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 11:48:19 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: "Poetics Today," pt. 3
The final installment of my "`I am all the Prophets,'" from Poetics Today.
Hope you all enjoyed it. There is an interesting story about how this
paper was presented at the conference where it was first heard, in
Israel, which maybe I'll share if there is interest. - Juan Cole, History,
Univ. of Michigan
Identity and Sacrifice
Baha'u'llah expounded the unity of the holy figures in universal
sacred history in more than one manner, with more than one deep-
structural message. The passage considered above focused on the
testing and suffering of the prophets, a common theme in Iranian
spirituality that dominated passion plays and learned commentary
alike. Another theme prominent in these literary genres was
redemptive sacrifice, a subject Baha'u'llah also addressed. One such
passage will allow us to consider not only a further theme in religious
unity but also how Baha'i leaders dealt with the question of
discrepancies among scriptural traditions. As we have seen,
Baha'u'llah affirmed the textual integrity of the Bible and the Qur'an
alike. Whereas most Muslims read the Qur'an as questioning the
reality of the Crucifixion, Baha'u'llah read the Qur'an in a manner that
allowed him to accepted the Gospel accounts in this regard and others.
Such differences of doctrine or reading of detail make the religions
seem incompatible with one another if one employs the logic of
argumentation. Spiritual logic, concentrating on structures, archetypes
and symbols rather than on surface detail, can devalue such
differences.
The story of God's commanding Abraham to sacrifice his eldest
son, Isaac, then finally granting him a reprieve has gripped the
religious imagination of the Abrahamic traditions for perhaps as many
as four thousand years. It has been read in myriad ways, from the
older Hegel's depiction of Abraham as a symbol of the alienated state
of believers before the advent of Christ, to Kierkegaard's portrayal of
him in Fear and Trembling as the "paradigm of authenticity." * An
undated text by Baha'u'llah that treats the Abraham incident as having
to do with redemptive suffering has been printed and translated:
That which thou hast heard concerning Abraham, the Friend of the
All-Merciful, is the truth, and no doubt is there about it. The Voice of
God commanded Him to offer up Ishmael as a sacrifice, so that His
steadfastness in the Faith of God and His detachment from all else but
Him may be demonstrated unto men. The purpose of God, moreover,
was to sacrifice him as a ransom for the sins and iniquities of all the
peoples of the earth. This same honor, Jesus, the Son of Mary,
besought the one true God, exalted be his name and glory, to confer
upon Him. For the same reason was Husayn offered up as a sacrifice
by Muhammad, the Apostle of God.
No man can ever claim to have comprehended the nature of the
hidden and manifold grace of God; none can fathom His all-embracing
mercy. Such hath been the perversity of men and their transgressions,
so grievous have been the trials that have afflicted the Prophets of God
and their chosen ones, that all mankind deserveth to be tormented and
to perish. God's hidden and most loving providence, however, hath,
through both visible and invisible agencies, protected and will continue
to protect it from the penalty of its wickedness. Ponder this in thine
heart, that the truth may be revealed unto thee, and be thou steadfast
in His path.*
The Western reader will be struck by the substitution of Ishmael for
Isaac here, and this is a matter to which I will return later. First,
however, I want to discuss the substance of the text.
Here the common identity of Abraham's son, of Jesus, and of
the Imam Husayn is not stressed so much as the identical meaning of
their sacrifices. The generic framework here is epistolary, and the
author uses mediated narration, mixing second- and third-person voice
and past tense. The passage does allude to, and play upon, the
resonances of Iranian passion plays and mourning ceremonies for the
Imams. Baha'u'llah's point here was not to assert again his own
identity with the previous Manifestations of God, and so he did not
employ the first-person voice. We must remember that the Surah of
Blood was intended as a proclamation of his station as a High Prophet.
This text however, was written much later and presumes the
acceptance of his doctrinal authority among the Baha'is. Note that it
is not important for the logic of this passage that Jesus and Husayn
died, whereas Abraham's son did not, for his story is still about the
sacrifice of holy persons. Moreover, reading these three stories
against one another brings out similar elements that otherwise would
remain only implicit. Baha'u'llah says that Abraham's near-sacrifice
functioned both as a demonstration of his steadfastness and
detachment and as a ritual offering that expunged human guilt.
Genesis depicts Abraham's action only as a test of his commitment to
God, and does not indicate that the act had a salvific component. But
the form of Abraham's action was precisely that of a ritual sacrifice
undertaken to appease an angry God. That the God of Genesis
accepted the willingness to sacrifice in the place of an actual killing
does not affect the structure of the story, which remains centered on
using sacrifice to avoid divine displeasure. Abraham's biography can
plausibly be read as similar in this regard to the Gospel narratives on
Jesus' Passion.
The Apostle Paul, of course, also suggested parallels between
Abraham and Christ, comparing Abraham's old age and barrenness to
Christ's death on the cross and thus implying that God's bestowal of a
son upon him bore a resemblance to Christ's resurrection (Romans
4:19-25).* Paul compared the Isaac's birth to the Passion and
Resurrection, whereas Baha'u'llah compared the narrative of the
threatened sacrifice of Abraham's son to the same events. Both
comparisons depend on transformations. Since the biography of
Abraham demonstrates structural transformations within itself, it is not
surprising that two authors could compare different episodes in his
biography to the same third event, Christ's Crucifixion and
Resurrection. For the tales of the miraculous birth of a son to an aged
Abraham and of his near-sacrifice already show many functional
similarities. An aged couple is to the birth of a son as the divine
command of sacrifice is to the sparing of a life. Baha'u'llah then
assimilates a third story from universal sacred history, the popular
Shi`ite version of Husayn's martyrdom, to the pattern of sacrifice and
salvation. Given the Shi`ite conviction that the simple act of weeping
for the slain scion of the Prophet's House is enough to earn eternal
salvation, parallels to Christian belief are obvious enough.
This later text, like the Surah of Blood, draws attention to the
structural resemblances in the various meaningful stories in the
Abrahamic traditions. Baha'u'llah by juxtaposing these stories brings
out deep structures that show the narratives to have the same basic
plot. The account of Abraham, however much it might be about
steadfastness and obedience to God, is also about sacrifice (or in
Kierkegaard's phrase, "infinite resignation").* The Prophet is said to
have sacrificed his grandson Husayn just as Abraham offered to kill his
son. Since Muhammad had been dead for nearly fifty years when
Husayn rose against the Umayyads, the phrasing here is the result of
seeing history through the lens of spiritual logic. Abraham had a son
whom God ordered him to kill; God had a son who allowed himself to
be sacrificed; Muhammad had a grandson whose martyrdom he could
not prevent. This text sees these narrative chains as transformations of
one and the same plot, which is seen as existentially meaningful, as
carrying a message about human perversity and divine forgiveness.
Let us turn now to the problem of the discrepancy between the
biblical and the Muslim traditions concerning the identity of the son
whom Abraham nearly sacrificed. The Qur'an (37:101-107), it should
be noted, does state the name of the son. Early Muslim commentators
were divided over this issue: one group accepted the Genesis
identification of the son as Isaac, but another that insisted it was
Ishmael who was nearly offered up. On the whole, popular Muslim
belief tended to side with the faction that identified the sacrifice
(dhabih) as Ishmael, and this was certainly the case in the Iranian
passion plays.* The problem of the differing Judeo-Christian and
Muslim versions of the Abraham story were addressed by Baha'u'llah's
son and successor, `Abdu'l-Baha. He asserted that every human being
is in an existential sense identical with the "sacrifice" (dhabih; that is,
the imperiled son of Abraham):
Each is a sacrifice, all are offerings in the divine path, all have hastened
to the altar of ecstatic love. For that reason, Isaac and Ishmael are
both sacrifices, as are all the servants of God. This is a station that is
among the exigencies of divine unity. From this it follows that in the
station of divine unity Ishmael and Isaac are considered as one being,
and it is permissible to apply the appellation of each to the other. In
the Pentateuch, Isaac is specified; in some of the oral reports attributed
to the Prophet [Muhammad] Isaac is mentioned, whereas in others it is
Ishmael. I earlier referred to Ishmael in accordance with the common
parlance of the people, since the name of Ishmael is upon the tongues
of the followers of the Qur'an.*
>From a semiotic point of view, both Isaac and Ishmael as words are
simply arbitrary signs, which are given meaning only within a semantic
system. The Isaac of Genesis had four primary meanings for believers
in the Hebrew Bible: 1) /Isaac/ was the historical personage; 2) /Isaac/
was a son of Abraham; 3) /Isaac/ was a progenitor of the faithful, to
whom divine promises were made; and 4) /Isaac/ was an archetypal
symbol of the believer's willingness to sacrifice for God. The third
meaning, of Isaac as progenitor, posed problems for post-Judaic
Abrahamic religions like Christianity and Islam, since this genealogical
sense could not be carried over into the new faith. The Christians
solved this dilemma by seeing themselves as symbolic descendents of
Isaac. Some Muslims, especially in the first centuries of Islam, appear
to have adopted a similar tactic. But since Arabs believed themselves
descended from Ishmael, the most direct manner in which they could
appropriate the three existentially central meanings of the sign /Isaac/
was to replace it with the sign /Ishmael/. The integration of the
Abrahamic sacrifice story into an Arab-Islamic milieu required
Muslims either to affirm the first, literal meaning of /Isaac/ as historical
personage and to allow the tale's existential import to be blunted, or to
retain the latter three (and most meaningful) senses of the sign /Isaac/
by erasing it and reassigning them to the sign /Ishmael/. In the end, at
least in the popular tradition, the second choice won out.
`Abdu'l-Baha's explanation of the discrepancy, which affirms
the spiritual validity of both approaches, has a background in Islamic
and Iranian mysticism, and it clearly depends upon a philosophical
nominalism similar to that which underlies modern formalism,
structuralism and semiotics. If we consider the influence of ancient
Greek and medieval Muslim nominalist schools, both on Iranian
religion and on medieval European ideas, we may be able to delineate
a common genealogy for the Baha'i and postmodern semiotic
approaches to mythic structures. In both traditions, a sign is not
statically attached to an actual external referent, but rather is an
arbitrary pointing device. In any case, the convergence appears to me
to be striking. French anthropologist Claude Livi-Strauss has taught
us that all important stories exist in several versions, and that all
versions of the mythos are equally "true," carrying the same latent
message.* From this point of view, clearly, the biblical Hebrew telling
and the Muslim Arab telling are both "true" versions of the same
narrative; it is irrelevant whether Isaac or Ishmael was the intended
victim, since each is merely a sign that could be attached to the more
basic function, /son/. Substituting one for the other is simply an
instance of transformation.
This text raises the problem of multiple versions of stories in
the Abrahamic traditions. The redactions of the biblical text have
eliminated many alternative versions of these stories, but by expanding
our view to noncanonical texts such as the Haggadah, and to other
Abrahamic traditions, such as Islam, we can see that other versions
have been told. Baha'u'llah, by setting this story in the same context as
the passion of Christ and the martyrdom of Husayn, focuses attention
on the themes of sacrifice and redemption and thus de-emphasizes the
genealogical and political implications of the narrative. From the point
of view of modern historical scholarship, in any case, neither the
historicity of the account nor the genealogy it proposes could be
accepted without question, for tribal peoples are notorious for
manufacturing connected lineages to foment ideological unity, even
where no biological relationship actually existed. The importance of
the story for the world religions and for world literature, however,
does not depend on the facticity of its genealogical or historical details
(though I do not wish to deny a historical core to the account), but on
its spiritual meaning.
The story in the Surah of Blood was told from the point of
view of the prophet, whereas here it is told in terms of its significance
for the audience, and the discursive technique of mediated narrative is
adopted. The juxtaposition of these materials is not as commonplace
in Islamic culture as might be assumed. Neither the Ten Sessions nor
the passion plays of Iran ever included a dramatization of Jesus's
death, since popular Islam tended, in docetic fashion, to deny the
crucifixion. Baha'u'llah nevertheless drew on this Gospel narrative
tradition in both of the passages we have discussed. The willingness to
see New Testament texts as authoritative scripture distinguishes
Baha'u'llah's writings on the unity of the Prophets from the vast
majority of writers in the Islamic tradition; here he employs simple
quotation or paraphrase as a technique to underline the unity of the
scriptures of the world religions.* Anyone who has read large
numbers of Islamic theological treatises cannot but be struck by the
new intertextuality Baha'u'llah establishes in the Book of Certitude and
other works, in which verses from the Hebrew Bible, the New
Testament, the Qur'an, and the Bab's Bayan, are all quoted as
scripture, embedded in Islamic conventions usually reserved solely for
Qur'anic verses. The application of widely accepted Iranian literary
and religious conventions, such as those concerning the mourning of
Husayn and Abraham's sacrifice, to unconventional subject-matter like
the crucifixion, or the juxtaposition, elsewhere, of Shi`ite and Christian
with Zoroastrian eschatology, allows Baha'u'llah to innovate and to
extend the range of accepted sacred history while nevertheless
naturalizing this new material for his immediate audience of Iranian
Muslims. Baha'i thinkers such as `Abdu'l-Baha self-consciously saw
alternative textual traditions within the Abrahamic religions as equally
valid versions of an underlying mythos, and as transformations in an
almost Proppian and Levi-Straussian sense.
I implied above that philosophers of religion, when considering
such issues as theological pluralism, have tended to draw abstract
propositions from religious texts and then treat those propositions in
the same way that mathematical propositions would be treated.. My
argument here has been that such a procedure ignores the literariness,
the textuality, of religious texts. It also, of course, ignores essential
components of religion such as cultus, history, symbol and affect or
right-brain thinking. Here, I have asked a different sort of question,
not whether religions make conflicting truth-claims in the form of
abstract propositions, but rather how religious pluralism is made
meaningful to those who believe in it. Providing an answer to this
question, I suggest, requires that we pay attention to the poetics of
scriptural and theological language in pluralist traditions such as the
Baha'i Faith, some schools of Hinduism and Buddhism, some orders of
Sufi Islam, and some Christian and Jewish theologians.
In the first text here discussed, the Surah of Blood, one of
Baha'u'llah's earliest declarations of his status as a world-messiah, I
demonstrated that several literary techniques were used in conjunction
with an appeal to a set of conventions. The Shi`ite passion plays had
already established a dramatic tradition of intertextuality, with the
sacrifice of Abraham, the travels of Joseph, the assassination of `Ali,
and the martyrdom of Husayn, all enacted together. The Ten Sessions,
or prose readings conducted during the mourning month of Muharram,
employed similar conventions to commemorate these tragedies of
sacred history. Baha'u'llah appealed to these conventions by setting a
scene in which the dying Husayn directs his plaint to the heavens,
identifying himself with Abraham, Joseph, Moses, John the Baptist,
Jesus, Husayn, the Bab and Baha'u'llah himself. The use of the first
person throughout, such that Husayn speaks as Moses and as John the
Baptist and as Baha'u'llah, contravenes the convention whereby such
texts were typically structured as a mediated narration in the past
tense. The introduction of the first-person voice and present-tense
subjectivity underlined the unity of these prophetic or holy figures.
The retelling of their stories so as to emphasize their similar plot
structure further reinforced the message of unity, as did the reiterated
opposition of governmental and hierocratic authority to the power of
the charismatic prophet. Finally, the introduction of an apostrophe to
God set Baha'u'llah's voice apart, and helped naturalize his claims to a
special relationship with the divine, just as a poet's use of this
technique helps establish his or her voice as a visionary whose vision
proceeds from extraordinary insight into the natural world.
In the second text considered here, Baha'u'llah compared the
sacrifices of Isaac/Ishmael, Jesus and Husayn, establishing in this
thematic manner an unusual intertextuality among Pentateuch, New
Testament and Qur'an. The surface contradictions among these
Abrahamic scriptural traditions, such as the dispute over whether Isaac
or Ishmael was the potential sacrifice, were addressed by Baha'i
leaders such as `Abdu'l-Baha in a manner greatly resembling the
transformations identified by contemporary students of myth such as
Livi-Strauss. Thus it could be asserted that, upon the epistemological
plane of divine unity (tawhid), Isaac and Ishmael are equivalent and
that the story's significance lies in Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his
son. The simple literary juxtaposition of the Crucifixion with the
martyrdom of Husayn, employing the Persian conventions of mourning
for the slain Imam, not only naturalized this Christian motif within a
semiotic system shaped by Iranian Islam, but also implied that the
traditional mainstream Muslim rejection of the existing New Testament
was based on no obvious qur'anic imperative.
John Hick's theological pluralism reflects a Kantian
epistemology. He asserts that, just as we have no direct perception of
phenomena, but rather impose preexisting conceptual categories on the
world to organize it, so do we have no immediate knowledge of the
numinous. Religions, in this view, represent human responses to a
numinous sensed but not directly known, and therefore the differences
among the religions are due in part to the use of preexisting cultural
categories to conceptualize the holy. Structuralism, post-structuralism
and semiotics likewise have a Kantian ancestry, and, perhaps for that
reason, they seem likely to provide means of further elucidating Hick's
conclusions. The procedure of abstracting creedal propositions from
the various religions and then opposing these to one another represents
a "thin" reading of religious meaning. Only by examining underlying
mythic structures, and the contours of scriptural and theological
textuality, can we begin to make sense of religious pluralism.
Notes
* See Abbas Amanat, Resurrection and Renewal: The Making of the
Babi Movement in Iran, 1844-1850 (Ithaca, N.Y.: Cornell University
Press, 1989), pp. 33-105, for religious diversity in nineteenth-century
Iran.
* See Moojan Momen, "Relativism: A Basis for Baha'i Metaphysics"
in idem., ed., Studies in the Babi and Baha'i Religions Volume Five
(Los Angeles: Kalimat Press, 1988), pp. 185-217.
* Paul Griffiths and Delmas Lewis, "On Grading Religions, Seeking
Truth, and Being Nice to People," Religious Studies 19 (1983): 75-
80.
* John Hick, Problems of Religious Pluralism (London: Macmillan,
1985), this point on p. 91; John Hick, An Interpretation of Religion
(New Haven: Yale University Press, 1989); see also Wilfred Cantwell
Smith, Towards a World Theology: Faith and the Comparative History
of Religion (London: Macmillan, 1981).
* Umberto Eco, A Theory of Semiotics (Bloomington: Indian
University Press, 1976).
* David Greenwood, Structuralism and the Biblical Text (Amsterdam:
Mouton, 1985), p. 30.
* See Claude Livi-Strauss, Structural Anthropology (New York:
Basic Books, 1963) and his Introduction to a Science of Mythology,
trans. John and Doreen Weightman, 4 vols. (Chicago: University of
Chicago Press, 1983); Daniel Patte, Paul's Faith and the Power of the
Gospel: A Structural Introduction to the Pauline Letters (Philadelphia:
Fortress Press, 1983); Edmund Leach, Genesis as Myth and Other
Essays (London: Jonathan Cape, 1969) and Edmund Leach and D.
Alan Ayrock, Structuralist Interpretations of Biblical Myth
(Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1983). For the
poststructuralist elaboration, see the works of Taylor and Culler, cited
below.
* Vladimir Propp, Morphology of the Folktale, tr. L. Scott and L.
Wagner (Austin: University of Texas Press, rev. ed. 1968), pp. 19-22.
* Hayden White, The Tropics of Discourse (Baltimore: Johns Hopkins
University Press, 1978); Robert F. Berkhofer, "The Challenge of
Poetics to (Normal) Historical Practice," Poetics Today 9, no. 2
(1988):435-52.
* Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha'u'llah, trans. Shoghi
Effendi Rabbani (Wilmette, Ill.: Baha'i Publishing Trust, 1982), p. 217;
Persian trans. Muntakhabati az athar-i hadrat-i Baha'u'llah (Hofheim:
Baha'i Verlag, 1984), pp. 141-42.
* Bernd Magnus, Nietzche's Existential Imperative (Bloomington:
Indiana University Press, 1978), pp. 61-62.
* The Bab, "Dala'il-i sab`ih," in Muntakhabat-i ayat az athar-i hadrat-i
nuqtih-'i ula (Wilmette, Ill.: Baha'i Publishing Trust, 1978), p. 90;
trans. Habib Taherzadeh, Selections from the Writings of the Bab
(Haifa: Baha'i World Centre, 1976), p. 126.
* Mark C. Taylor, Erring: A Postmodern A/theology (Chicago:
University of Chicago Press, 1984), pp. 69-70.
* Baha'u'llah, The Book of Certitude (Wilmette, Ill.: Baha'i Publishing
Trust, 1970), p. 151; Persian text, Kitab-i iqan (Cairo: al-Mawsu`at
Press, 1900), pp. 126-27.
* `Abdu'l-Baha', Some Answered Questions, comp. Laura Clifford
Barney (Wilmette, Ill.: Baha'i Publishing Trust, 1981, pp. 132-34;
Persian text, an-Nur al-abha fi mufawadat `Abdu'l-Baha (New Delhi:
Baha'i Publishing Trust, 1983), pp. 95-97.
* See Mehdi Forough, A Comparative Study of Abraham's Sacrifice in
Persian Passion Plays and Western Mystery Plays (Tehran: Ministry of
Culture and Art, n.d.), wherein a script for the Abraham story is
printed.
* Michael M.J. Fischer, Iran: From Religious Dispute to Revolution
(Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1980), pp. 13-27.
* See Peter J. Chelkowski, ed., Ta`ziyeh: Ritual and Drama in Iran
(New York: New York University Press, 1979); for types and genres
of Shi`ite mourning ceremonies in India, see my Roots of North Indian
Shi`ism in Iran and Iraq: Religion and State in Awadh, 1722-1859
(Berkeley: University of California Press, 1988), pp. 92-119.
* Baha'u'llah, Athar-i qalam-i a`la, vol. 4 (Tehran: Baha'i Publishing
Trust, B.E. 125/A.D. 1968), pp. 1-15; an account of Nabil's early
Baha'i missionary work in Iran may be found in Habibu'llah Shirazi,
"Tarikh-i amriy-i Shiraz," Afnan Library, London; see also Habib
Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Baha'u'llah, 4 vols. (Oxford: George
Ronald, 1974-1987) 2:236-240.
* Baha'u'llah, Athar, 4:8-10; translated in Baha'u'llah, Gleanings from
the Writings of Baha'u'llah, trans. Shoghi Effendi Rabbani (Wilmette,
Ill.: Baha'i Publishing Trust, 1982), pp. 88-90.
* Seymour Chatman, Story and Discourse: Narrative Structure in
Fiction and Film (Ithaca, N.Y.: Cornell University Press, 1978), pp.
32, 146; these two elements of discourse are called "narrative" and
"story" by some theorists, but Chatman has other uses for the latter
word; see Greenwood, Biblical Structuralism, p. 27, summarizing the
position of Via.
* Jonathan Culler, Structuralist Poetics: Structuralism, Linguistics and
the Study of Literature (Ithaca, N.Y.: Cornell University Press, 1975),
pp. 197-99.
* Stephen D. Moore, Literary Criticism in the Gospels (New Haven:
Yale University Press, 1989), p. 26.
* Culler, Poetics, p. 137; see also Umberto Eco, The Role of the
Reader (Bloomington: University of Indiana Press, 1979).
* Roland Barthes, S/Z, tr. Richard Miller (New York: Hill and Wang,
1974), pp. 22-23.
* Jonathan Culler, The Pursuit of Signs: Semiotics, Literature,
Deconstruction (Ithaca: Cornell University Press, 1981), pp. 142, 149-
52.
* See Bernard Heller, "Namrud," Encyclopaedia of Islam, 4 vols.
(London: Luzac, 1913-24, 1st edn).
* Baha'u'llah, "Lawh Ayyub," Risalih-'i ayyam-i tis`ih, ed. `Abdu'l-
Hamid Ishraq-Khavari (Tehran: Baha'i Publishing Trust, 5th edn, B.E.
129/1973), pp. 262-312.
* Max Weber, Economy and Society, ed. G. Roth and C. Wittich, 2
vols. (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1978), 1: 241-245,
452-57.
* Baha'u'llah, Book of Certitude, pp. 106-113; Persian text, pp. 86-88.
* Soren Kierkegaard, Fear and Trembling and The Sickness Unto
Death, trans. Walter Lowrie (Princeton: Princeton University Press,
1970); Mark C. Taylor, Deconstructing Theology (New York and
Chico, Ca.: Crossroad Publishing Company and Scholars Press, 1982),
chapter 1; the quote is from Taylor, p. 2.
* Baha'u'llah, Gleanings, pp. 75-76; Muntakhabati az athar, p. 56.
* Cf. Patte, Paul's Faith, pp. 216-221.
* Kierkegaard, Fear and Trembling, p. 56.
* Suliman Bashear, "Abraham's Sacrifice of his Son and Related
Issues," Der Islam 67, no. 2 (1990):243-277. Cf. Foroughi, Abraham's
Sacrifice. [See Reuthven Firestone on Abraham in Tafsir]
* `Abdu'l-Baha, Makatib, vol. 2 (Cairo: Matba`ah Kurdistan al-
`Ilmiyyah, 1330/1912), pp. 328-30.
* Levi-Strauss, Structural Anthropology and Science of Mythology.
* Geoffrey Parrinder, Jesus in the Qur'an (London: Faber and Faber,
1965); William P. Collins, "Islam's Tahrif: Implications for the Baha'i
Faith," World Order 11, no. 1 (Fall 1976):22-31.
=END=
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 19:03:58 +0100
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: Loni.BramsonLerche@ping.be (Loni Bramson-Lerche)
Subject: Biological sexes
Ms. Reinstein,
I am still researching and thinking about the question of
biological sex and gender, but I can give you a bit more
information on the theory that there are more than two
biological sexes. Unfortunately, I do not have much time
and can only provide a very brief summary, which I hope will
not distort the issues involved.
Most researchers agree that gender is socially constructed.
In terms of biological sex, whereas it is usually easy to
discern certain physical differences and similarities, how
these are classified is, in the opinion of certain
researchers, also a social construct. At this point in my
research, I agree with these researchers.
Very briefly, if you think of a continuum, on one end there
are XY individuals with body hair, a penis, testicles, narrow
hips, etc. On the other end of the continuum are XX individuals
with breasts, wide hips, little body hair, a vagina, clitoris,
etc. In the middle of this continuum there is a variety, with
XXY individuals, XX XY people, those with only one sex chromo-
some, X0, etc. It has been estimated that about 10% of the human
population is found in the middle area of the continuum. The
people in the middle area can also be classified as belonging
there because of hormonal divergences from "the norm" during preg-
nancy (and sometimes after pregnancy). As you might know, at the
moment of conception, and for about the first six weeks of life,
everyone is female. If the right amount of androgen is not pro-
duced at exactly the right time, even if the individual is XY,
a baby "girl" will be born. (There are also XX "men".) What this
amounts to is that in some "men" and "women" there are different
combinations of internal sex organs, secondary sexual character-
istics, and external genitals. This is an overly short summary
of the situation, but I do not have time for more than that.
In the international society that is developing, to decide
whether someone is a woman or a man, the individual must be able
to answer yes to a certain number of questions. Some of these
questions have to do with:
-the appearance of external genitals;
-whether there is a Y chromosome or not;
-the amount of certain hormones in the body;
-and the sex assigned at birth.
The people in the middle of the continuum cannot answer yes to the
whole set of questions. One possible way of resolving this situa-
tion is to say that, in fact, there is only one kind of human
being which comes in a variety of shapes, sizes, and forms.
Most people are not yet ready to think of there being only one
biological sex and no such thing as gender, so there is a move to
create a classification with more than two sexes. (And as you can
see from Tony Lee's and J. Armstrong-Ingram's postings, more than
two genders.) The move seems to be primarily in the "amateur"
sports movement, specifically those sports (and events) that generate
a lot of money. In order to participate in athletic events it is
required to pass a sex chromatin screening. The testers look to see
if the athlete has Barr bodies or not. If you have Barr bodies
you are female (because Barr bodies are produced by XX individuals),
if you do not, then you are male. The problem is that you can have
"women" who do not produce Barr bodies, and "men" who do, depending
on what sex chromosomes they have and what hormones they produce or
were subjected to. (Barr bodies are present because of one of the
X chromosomes.)
This is why some geneticists, biologists, and people in other fields
who research these questions are calling for a classification with more
than two biological sexes. Since there is such a rigid definition of
what a man is and what a woman is, they feel it is only logical and fair
to create a new classification with more than two biological sexes.
Sincerely,
(Dr.) Loni Bramson-Lerche
=END=
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 12:00:39 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Baha'u'llah's "Surah of Blood"
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Juan Cole" , "Talisman"
> Hearken, O Muhammad1, to the voice of thy Lord from this
>station, which is exalted above the reach of all contingent beings. It
>can never be attained by the hearts of His creatures nor by the inmost
>realities of those who have, for a single instant, been heedless of this
>sanctified, mighty and concealed Cause.
Dear Juan,
I have a question that is gnawing at me. I can't read this in the
original and I have a problem with the english word "Attain" and the
subject verb relationship of "it" that you have chosen in this passage.
Where Baha'u'llah uses the word "reach" as you have translated it, to
describe the transcendant nature (I presume) of the station that the
voice is speaking from, I can understand, and find typical of
Baha'u'llah's theophany, so to speak. I would find it enlightening,
however, if you could speak to the problem of "attainment" in this
instance. Because with the usage of "It" I'm not sure if the station is
meant, or perhaps, simply attainment to of the knowledge that Baha'u'llah
is the next prophet. The use of "attained", as I read it this in
context, seems to open the door to attaining that which has already been
said is "above the reach of all contingent beings."
I despise sounding like a pedant here, but this is a minor point that
struck me and could be a good segue, as Ahang has suggested we do, to
deepening on this marvelous new translation.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: 31 Jan 96 13:36:19 EST
From: Steven Scholl <73613.2712@compuserve.com>
To: Talisman
Subject: Jim Nelson Update
Dear Friends,
Some good news regarding Jim Nelson's health. My wife spoke with Dorothy the
other night and it looks like the cancer has not spread. They are beginning
hormone and chemotherapy to shrink the prostate before operating. This is all
very encouraging though the road ahead will be difficult. Jim's spirits are up
and he is taking things in stride. He joked that the hormone therapy might help
him get in touch with his feminine side.
Steve Scholl
=END=
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 09:30:27 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu, Mark_Insteness@dot.state.ak.us,
Doug_Moore@admin.state.ak.us
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: Dear Dr. Burl:
Dear Dr. Burl:
I have a question. What is all this fuss about sex around here? A lot of the
messages I get have to do with sex, how it is done, where it is done, with
whom it is done, etc. I can't figure out why folks on this list are so
obsessed and fascinated with sex. Quite frankly, all this has been offensive
and disturbing to me as I don't get any. Don't these people have any sense
of shame and modesty? I got so upset that I went back to some of the
Bahuu'i (whoever they are) books to look for subjects having to do with sex,
and to my amazement I found nothing interesting or exciting.
Am I missing something, or what, Dr. Burl?
Signed
A Prude
Arsalan J. Sadighi
"Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
that is clearly none of your business!" Battista
=END=
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 09:43:21 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: Re: Remey
jackson said:
> The Guardian said that it was important for Baha'is
>to give due credit to covenant breakers for the service they had rendered
>to the faith previously and to accord them credit for whatever good they
>did generally afterward the break. Abdu'l-Baha emphasized that avoidance
>should be with love to be acceptable, to avoid with hate was not
>acceptable.
Dear Jackson,
I was surprised to read the above paragraph. Could you please let me know
where you read about these statements by the Guardian and where the Master
indicates that avoidance of Covenant Breakers is to be done with love? I am
very curious. I certainly do not doubt what you have said, but I find it
very fascinating.
Arsalan
Arsalan J. Sadighi
"Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
that is clearly none of your business!" Battista
=END=
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 10:02:51 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: Re: Remey
jackson said:
> The Guardian said that it was important for Baha'is
>to give due credit to covenant breakers for the service they had rendered
>to the faith previously and to accord them credit for whatever good they
>did generally afterward the break. Abdu'l-Baha emphasized that avoidance
>should be with love to be acceptable, to avoid with hate was not
>acceptable.
Dear Jackson,
I was surprised to read the above paragraph. Could you please let me know
where you read about these statements by the Guardian and where the Master
indicates that avoidance of Covenant Breakers is to be done with love? I am
very curious. I certainly do not doubt what you have said, but I find it
very fascinating.
Arsalan
Arsalan J. Sadighi
"Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
that is clearly none of your business!" Battista
=END=
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 11:20:41 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Dear Dr. Burl:
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear obsessed One in Alasaka
Dr Burl I feel sure will respond to your plaintive request. As a
pointer you need to start reading some books on Economics , make out a
large check to the Dr Burl and Uncle Derek Patagonia holiday fund.Send
a posting to Linda explaining why you support 'Adam Smith Day'.Some
people like the rascal Haines and Culhane stay up all night inventing
things so do not believe everything you read. Sex actually does not
exist except on the astral plane so pandering or whining for it on the
physical plane it is simply bad for your vocal cords. I suggest you go
to your local Dennys have a good breakfast but some backbone in
yourself and get a life. If that doesn't work give yourself a good
thrashing or tell your dear wife what you posted that should result in
the jolly old hair flying.By the way we would like a blow by blow
account of what happened if you tell your wife.
Yours in total sympathy
Uncle Derek , Dr Burl's best friend and the one who Linda loves the
most.
Dear Dr. Burl:
I have a question. What is all this fuss about sex around here? A lot
of the
messages I get have to do with sex, how it is done, where it is done,
with
whom it is done, etc. I can't figure out why folks on this list are so
obsessed and fascinated with sex. Quite frankly, all this has been
offensive
and disturbing to me as I don't get any. Don't these people have any
sense
of shame and modesty? I got so upset that I went back to some of the
Bahuu'i (whoever they are) books to look for subjects having to do with
sex,
and to my amazement I found nothing interesting or exciting.
Am I missing something, or what, Dr. Burl?
Signed
A Prude
Arsalan J. Sadighi
"Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
that is clearly none of your business!" Battista
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 12:17:21 PST
Subject: Dancing
To: TLCULHANE@aol.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Terry,
I hope you are wrong about no dancing in the Mashriqu. For me that
would undo what I think the Mashriqu can be.
T.S.Eliot:
I said to my soul, be still, and wait without hoope
For hope would be hope for the wrong thing; wait without love
For love would be love of the wrong thing; there is yet faith
But the faith and the love and the hope are all in the waiting.
Wait without thought, for you are not ready for thought:
So the darkness shall be the light, and the stillness the dancing.
Isadora Duncan:
If I could say it with words, I wouldn't be dancing it.
Dancing is holy movement.
Dance can become prayer, like any other form of expression.
Rumi:
Dance with the Bandage tore off!
Terry, what are you saying here about dancing? Is it really banned in
the inner temple?
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/31/96
Time: 12:17:22
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 15:58:02 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Dr. Burl?
To: talisman@indiana.edu
I am afraid there has been a terrible mistake here. The worst kind that could
be made on Talisman. It is not "Dr." Burl but "Mr." Burl. You see, Burl has a
Master's Degree in Manners. That's right. He is a graduate of Miss Mildred's
School of Manners, an institution, founded in May, 1995, with a long record of
turning American men (especially those getting long in the tooth) into proper
gentlemen so that they can sit at table in polite company. Yes, I am assured
by Miss Mildred herself that with a refresher course, why, Burl may be even
prepared to sit with as fine a lady as myself. This remains to be seen, but
Miss Mildred was very encouraging.
However, she was very definite that Mr. Burl was certainly well prepared to
answer any and all questions posed to him over e-mail, that with his master's
degree in manners he can address any issue put to him. So, just keep asking...
Signed, a very good friend of Burl and Derek's
=END=
From: alma@indirect.com
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 13:57:40 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Dear Dr Burl
Is there any relationship between your name and your advice and burlesque?
I joined this here Talisman cause I thought it was high-class and I hope you
are not trying to add a low-class element aided byyour infamous cohort whose
name has a suspicious likeness to drek.
So fellow Talismans, lets keep this place as pure as it was in the past. I
would note that someone here seems to misinterpret all our postings on sex
and gender. In my opinion these should be seen as very positive and indeed
necessary. If we are all so busy posting and reposting long dissertations
on sex, what time or energy have we to actually 'do' sex?
A puzzled but proper,
Alma
(whose very name is sexless-genderless. From the Latin roots it is feminine
and related to soul, etc. But from Mormon roots it is the name of an angel
and is masculine.}
To tread the path of Love Alma Engels
Is no mere game. alma@indirect.com
For only one
Out of many thousands
Can persevere in His Love. (Tahirih)
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 22:27:15 +0100 (MET)
Subject: natural law & rights
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Jim,
I think I'm following you thus far so far as natural law goes, and
I'm finding it useful. You lose me entirely when you skip to the
USA and the American Baha'i community, but that may be due
to lack of familiarity with either.
A couple of questions:
1) What about the question of access to the world of ideas, and
thus our ability to perceive justice etc?. You seem to be saying
that we can directly intuit moral law. Certainly the intellectual
faculty can grasp operative laws and tendencies in what IS:
The power of the rational soul can discover the realities
of things, comprehend the peculiarities of beings, and
penetrate the mysteries of existence. (Some Answered
Questions, page 217, see also Promulgation of Universal
Peace, page 31 etc.)
but can it discern what OUGHT to be? It seems to me that there
are two contraidictory strands in the Writings on this - one
saying that we have no access to such moral law except through
the Manifestations, the other that the faculty to do so is
universally human (eg: Paris Talks, page 174, the reference to
'followers of the inner Light'). In one place at least these are
brought together:
The intellectual power of the world of nature ... discovers
the realities of beings and the properties of existences; but
the heavenly intellectual power, which is beyond nature,
embraces things and is cognizant of things, knows them,
understands them, is aware of mysteries, realities and
divine significations, and is the discoverer of the
concealed verities of the Kingdom. This divine
intellectual power is the special attribute of the Holy
Manifestations and the Dawning-places of prophethood; a
ray of this light falls upon the mirrors of the hearts of the
righteous, and a portion and a share of this power comes
to them through the Holy Manifestations. (Some
Answered Questions, page 218)
The first of this intellectual powers is the IS ('existences'), the
second the OUGHT (among other things) - and apparently the
latter is mediated by the Manifestations. Is that then a grace
which is poured out on us all? And if not, if it is acquired
through natural means (knowing the teachings of the
Manifestation & encountering his person) which are not
universally available, then not everyone perceives the 'ought', and
the foundation of rights on the duty to fulfill moral obligations
falls down. But if it is universal then the duty to recognize the
manifestation is not in this respect essential. Your thoughts
please.
2) You seem to be saying that Augustine's Fall doctrine was not
neoplatonic, which might be historically correct in Augustine's
case, since it could come equally well from either classical
culture (decline from the Golden Age) or from Mani's teachings.
However it fits rather well with platonism too, don't you think:
the manifestations of ideas in the world of matter, with
individual definiciencies in expressing the perfect idea (as in your
example of the defective horse), combined with the assumption
that things naturally come to rest (and thus that change is not the
'law of nature' but rather a contingency of the 'natural world')
seem to add up to something like an ongoing fall. In Augustine's
case the source is unimportant, but if you are proposing
neoplatonism as a framework for natural law, rights and duties
then it might be useful to consider how it is to be disentangled
from the pessimism of the Fall doctrine.
3) I think that there are some grounds for a view that the
inherent nature or idea of human beings entails some rights in
itself, alongside the argument you have proposed that our
perception of moral duties in natural law entails the right to
perform these duties. To give one example:
Equality and Brotherhood must be established among all
members of mankind. This is according to Justice. The
general rights of mankind must be guarded and preserved.
All men must be treated equally. This is inherent in
the very nature of humanity.
(Abdu'l-Baha in London, page 29)
Which is not to say that the argument of derived human rights
you propound is not elegant, but do we not have to recognize,
alongside this, rights which are 'inherent in the very nature of
humanity'?
4) apart from the right to be treated equally, as in the quote
above (which seems to be what `Abdu'l-Baha most often means
when speaks of human rights as a Baha'i principle), there may be
other rights which are inherent rather than derived from duties.
For instance:
.. The vegetable plane or kingdom, for instance, has its
infinite variety of types and material structures of plant
life - each distinct and different within itself, no two
exactly alike in composition and detail - for there are no
repetitions in nature, and the augmentative virtue cannot
be confined to any given image or shape. Each leaf has
its own particular identity - so to speak, its own
individuality as a leaf. ... As each of these forms has its
individual and particular virtue, therefore, each elemental
atom of the universe has the opportunity of expressing an
infinite variety of those individual virtues. No atom is
bereft or deprived of this opportunity or right of
expression ... (Promulgation of Universal Peace, page 285)
Which seems to imply that there is a right to express that
individuality which is our true selves. At which point I can't
resist repeating my favourite quote:
"When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost
essence of all things, and the *individuality* of each, thou
wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy in every created
thing, and see the spreading rays of His Names and
Attributes throughout all the realm of being, with
evidences which none will deny save the froward and the
unaware. [Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p.
41]
This passage seems to point to a post-platonist philosophy, since
the individualities are placed alongside the ideas as gateways to
knowledge of the divine attributes. In describing platonic
philophy of law, it is not necessary to mention individualities,
except in so far as they are said to tend towards ideas, but if the
platonic framework is to be used as a basis for an outline of
duties and rights in a Baha'i perspective, it would seem necessary
to consider that, on the the question of individuality, there is not
so much resemblance between Baha'i and platonic conceptions.
Or not?
Sen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-3216854
Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
and the individuality of each,
thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 13:39:46 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Dr. Burl?
To: lwalbrid@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
My dearest Linda ninja
My best friend Burl in addition to receiving his masters degree from
Miss Manners's college for the refinement of country gentlemen. Also
obtained his doctorate from the Walla Walla's Harry's Fish bar in
filleting and smoking large beached whales. Burl invented the
lefthanded crossover straight cut with a postive approach in
intellectual revisionism to Asharitism.
Miss Manners college was founded in 1274ce not 1995. In 1995 Burl
returned for a refresher course in napkin placement which is why Linda
you are confused. I am sending this to you personally so that it does
not get out on Talisman you know how paraniod thery all are with talk
about the s word and rights and all that.
Burl and I are looking forward to getting you to Bosch, but will you
ever leave?
Burl's best friend Uncle Derek
I am afraid there has been a terrible mistake here. The worst kind
that could
be made on Talisman. It is not "Dr." Burl but "Mr." Burl. You see,
Burl has a
Master's Degree in Manners. That's right. He is a graduate of Miss
Mildred's
School of Manners, an institution, founded in May, 1995, with a long
record of
turning American men (especially those getting long in the tooth) into
proper
gentlemen so that they can sit at table in polite company. Yes, I am
assured
by Miss Mildred herself that with a refresher course, why, Burl may be
even
prepared to sit with as fine a lady as myself. This remains to be
seen, but
Miss Mildred was very encouraging.
However, she was very definite that Mr. Burl was certainly well
prepared to
answer any and all questions posed to him over e-mail, that with his
master's
degree in manners he can address any issue put to him. So, just keep
asking...
Signed, a very good friend of Burl and Derek's
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 22:28:17 +0100 (MET)
Subject: dancing
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Alma,
I encountered this curious disapproval of dancing in Dunedin once.
There, it was based on a letter from Shoghi Effendi or his secretary
referring to dancing in the Haziratu'l-quds (NOT the Mashriqu'l-adhkar),
and as I recall it was addressed to somewhere in South America. The letter
is in Lights of Guidance, which I don't have: it's not in REFER.
Apart from any local circumstances which may have informed this particular
decision, it might well be generally inappropriate to have dancing
or any other social activities in the Haziratu'l-Quds, which is the
seat of the House of Justice and should be a place for the work of
administrative arm. Because it is desirable to differentiate the various
institutions clearly, I also think it is inappropriate to have feasts,
morning prayers, or the offices of the counsellors or ABMs in the
Haziratu'l-Quds, unless perhaps there is a clearly differentiated space
in the same building.
However most communities have neither a Mashriqu'l-Adhkar nor a
Haziratu'l-Quds, but rather a Baha'i centre, which is like a 2-day
old embryo: an apparently undifferentiated mass of cells which
nevertheless has the potential within it to develop distinct organs.
A Baha'i centre has usually to be used for everything from Assembly
meetings to children's classes, including social events, feasts, meetings
for worship and so on. I'm reasonably sure there is nothing in the
Writings at all about the use or status of a Baha'i centre, since it has
no charter as an institution in the Baha'i writings. It is just a building
used by the Baha'i for whatever they want to use it for. It may house
Baha'i institutions, such as the Mashriqu'l-adhkar (eg in the form of
dawn prayers or spiritual meetings) or the House of Justice, but it is
not itself an institution, so there cannot be rules in the Writings laid
down concerning it. This is not to say that your NSA may not have made
some rules, as the LSA in Dunedin had, but in the latter case the decision
was based on lack of knowledge about the institutions which comprise a Baha'i
community (it was reversed when the assembly had a chance to study the
matter). You might obtain the letter concerned from your NSA and, if
appropriate, gather the necessary materials to have the policy overturned.
I append some useful quotes:
Another victim of the frightful tortures inflicted by an unyielding
enemy was the high-minded, the influential and courageous Haji
Sulayman Khan. ... "Why dost thou not dance?" asked the
executioner mockingly, "since thou findest death so pleasant?"
"Dance?" cried the sufferer, "In one hand the wine-cup, in one hand
the tresses of the Friend. Such a dance in the midst of the market-place
is my desire!" (God Passes By, pages 77-78) [BTW - the 'Friend' who has
'tresses' would have to be a Maid, I suppose??]
As regards the questions you asked him: There is nothing in the
teachings against dancing, and any arrangements for it at Summer
Schools, etc., are left to the discretion of the Committee or Assembly in
charge to make.
(From a letter dated 24 February 1947 written on behalf of Shoghi
Effendi to an individual believer, in Centres of Baha'i Learning,
page 40)
In the teachings there is nothing against dancing, but the
friends should remember that the standard of Baha'u'llah is
modesty and chastity. The atmosphere of modern dance halls,
where so much smoking and drinking and promiscuity goes on,
is very bad, but decent dances are not harmful in themselves.
There is certainly no harm in classical dancing or learning
dancing in school. ... The harmful thing, nowadays,
is not the art itself but the unfortunate corruption
which often surrounds these arts. As Baha'is we need avoid
none of the arts ... (Dawn of a New Day, page 153)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-216854
Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
and the individuality of each,
thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 13:00:57 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: Need Your Advice
Friends,
I am teaching a class to a wonderful group of pre-youth in our town. They
are very bright and dedicated. This class is supposed to deepen them, ignite
the love of Baha' in their hearts, and be relevant to their futures.
We started with the "Hidden Words", "God Passes By," and the "Seven Habits
of Highly Effective People." They are doing very well with the Seven
Habits, and the Hidden Words, but they are having a serious problem reading
God Passes By. I might have erred in my judgement choosing that book. We are
at a point where we need to decide if we are going to continue with God
Passes By, or choose another book. Does anyone have a suggestion on how I
should approach this project? I really want to make this worthwhile for them
and I do not want it to be a waste of their time and effort.
Gratefully,
Arsalan
Arsalan J. Sadighi
"Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
that is clearly none of your business!" Battista
=END=
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 17:32:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Jackson Armstrong-Ingram
To: Loni Bramson-Lerche
Cc: talisman
Subject: Re: Biological sexes
Adding to what Loni said:
There are two kinds of living species, thsoe who reproduce asexually and
those who reproduce sexually. The concept of sex has really no
biological relevance outside reproduction. THerefore in the strict sense
only those individuals who produce viable gametes can be said to have a
sex. the number of sexes in a species is determined by the number of
types of gametes, it has notthing to do with whole individuals. Specific
individuals can be said to have a sex or no sex based on the type of
gamete they do or do not produce. THe wide range of epiphenomena related
to gamete production are not themselves of relevance in determining sex.
Sex in human beings is a matter of male and female gamete producers.
Categories like 'man' and 'woman' have no given correlate to this but
relate to how an individual functions socially: they are genders.
Attribution to genders is based on a combination of anatomical,
physiological, and behavioral factors that are related to sex in
complex and variably determined ways.
Jackson
=END=
From: Ali M Afnan
To: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com
Cc: Talisman
Subject: Re: Continental Counselors
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 19:06:38 GMT
On 29 Jan 1996 18:31:12 GMT, you wrote:
>> a letter from the Universal House of Justice that states that
>> Counsellors indeed have a higher rank than Nationsal Spiritual Assemblies.
>Do you (or anyone) have a source? books and page, chapter and verse?
>
"The Counsellors are members of a continental, as distinct from a
national institution, and they occupy a rank higher than that of the
National Spiritual Assembly. Apart from any other consideration, their
rank is, in a practical sense, a functional necessity if these
officers of the Faith are to be accorded freedom of the community at
all levels and their advice and other functions are to be taken
seriously. We have said in an earlier letter that the existence of
institutions of such exalted rank, comprising individuals who play
such a vital role, who yet have no legislative, administrative or
judicial authority, and are entirely devoid of priestly functions or
the right to make authoritative interpretations, is a feature of
Bahi administration unparalleled in the religions of the past. It
is a difficult concept to grasp. But with the passage of time since
the first contingent of Continental Counsellors was appointed, much
understanding has surely been acquired."
(The Universal House Of Justice, 19 May 1994, to the National
Spiritual assembly of the Bahis of the United States)
I believe it is paragraph 21 in the bove letter.
=END=
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 13:48:02 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: Re: Dr. Burl?
Dear Ms. Linda,
Why do you oppose "Adam Smith Day?" I have been oredered to ask you and
convince you about its manifold (my big word for today) merits and to send
some money to Drs. Derek and Burl. For the time being it is cheaper to ask
the question and we shall see about the money. Also, I may be a bit too
dense to understand what Dr. Derek is saying, but maybe, you being such a
well mannered and of great talent a person, could come to my rescue and
answer this question: What does reading books on Economics have to do with
SEX? Dr. Derek, very kindly I must add, directs me to "go to your local
Dennys have a good breakfast but some backbone in yourself and get a life.
If that doesn't work give yourself a good thrashing or tell your dear wife
what you posted that should result in the jolly old hair flying." Maybe he
is advocating S&M, but I am too pure to know anything about that. If he
thinks I am going to share any of this with my sweet wife, who breaths fire
and eats economists for lunch, he is plain nuts! I will not, under any
circumstances, put myself in such peril for his sake, economist or not! What
do you think?
Don't you think we should 'upgrade' 'Mr. Burl' to 'Dr. Burl' now?
Arsalan
Arsalan J. Sadighi
"Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
that is clearly none of your business!" Battista
=END=
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 14:23 PST
To: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Dear Dr. Burl:
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
>Dear Dr. Burl:
>
>I have a question. What is all this fuss about sex around here?
This is an intellectual list and intellectuals are fussy about
everything. Economists are more concerned with costs and time value.
Consider this ecomonic fact: you have 2,000 hours a year to make 100% of
your annual income. Now, how much money to you intend to make in 1996?
Divide that amount by 2,000 and you know your dollar per hour value. Unless
you are having sex for a living, you must figure out how much it is costing
you in lost revenue. Economist contientiously keep their lost revenue to an
absolute minimum, and consider a calculator to be a marital aid. This is one
reason why Economics is termed "The Science of Dismal Performance."
Social historians who write papers entitled "Turgidity and Modernity" take a
different, but equally fussy approach. They are most interested in the
behaviour of others and the interaction patterns of diverse societies and
cultures. In short, they compare performance and, as others always
exaggerate their good fortune, social historians continually feel slighted.
I am willing to wager that there are folks on this list who can ask "gettin'
any?" in at least 7 languages.
I can't figure out why folks on this list are so
>obsessed and fascinated with sex.
Most of these people are devout members of the Baha'i Movement, whose
writings specifically state: "Ponder at all times in your heart how you were
created." I am sure these folks are simply taking this directive literally
on a physical/sensate level with the best intentions imaginable.
Another, more basic reason for their fascination with sex is simply
because its the most fun you can have without laughing.
> Don't these people have any sense
>of shame and modesty?
Yes. They are mostly ashamed of other's behaviour and modest about thier own.
> to my amazement I found nothing interesting or exciting.
>Am I missing something, or what, Dr. Burl?
Yes, you are missing something: "A full and rewarding sex life is the
natural right of every individual and it is precisely for this reason that
the institution of marriage was created" -- Shoghi Effendi.
Precise is a very precise word. If you are married and not having a full
and rewarding sex life, or providing your spouse with a full and rewarding
sex life, you are violating the precise purpose of marriage.
It is for this reason that Mr. Burl recommends devoting much time in
preparation for, and in fulfillment of, the purpose of marriage. You must,
of course, remain chaste before marriage and faithful during marriage. Just
as basketball players increase their skills by visualizing shooting hoops, I
suggest spending several valuable minutes each day visualizing your full and
rewarding peformance. Practice makes perfect. Hence, I suggest you practice
as much as possible when you are alone, but not to the point of obsession,
exhaustion, or physical injury. You don't want arms like Popeye the Sailor.
I suggest you consult "Lights of Guidance" for more information on this
topic. ( a good method is to "throw the I-Ching" but use Lights of Guidance
instead of the I-Ching.)
Disclaimer: All answers provided by Mr. Burl are from untranslated and as
yet unwritten letters of Mr. Burl and are not to be considered authentic,
valuable, sensible, or rational, nor is Mr. Burl responsible for all the
horrible things that might happen to you if you follow his advice.
>
>
>
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
Unlimited!
********************************************************
=END=
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 13:33:43 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu, Geocitizen@aol.com
From: nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
Subject: Re: Thanks for playing, but...
Dear Kevin,
On Fri, 26 Jan 1996 you wrote:
> . . . we're still quite some distance from having done justice to the
>potential within Baha'u'llah's Revelation for revolutionizing the
>possibilities of political theory.
This is so true, because as the rest of your post indicates, we are
essentially trying to
describe something that we have never seen before.
> To summarize two recent forays into this field:
>
>Linda gave yet another spirited defense of human rights
>snip>
>To wit, Linda seems to argue that there are only two possible political
>systems: "democracy" as exemplified in contemporary Europe and North
>America, or military dictatorship as exemplified in contemporary Syria and
>Iraq (and other places, of course). Anyone critiquing the theory behind
>Western liberal democracy must therefore support dictatorship, and draconian
>limits on the God-given right of individuals to use their typewriters however
>they damn well please.
>
>BZZZZZTT! Thank you for playing.
>
>Juan admits that there are more than two possible political systems -- that
>there may, in fact, be five (or four -- the explanatory table got distorted
>on its way from Juan's editor to my mailreader, so I can't tell if he meant
>to distinguish Fascism from Leninism, which would make sense since Leninism
>doesn't share Fascism's explicit nationalism and racialism, but then again,
>they work out pretty much the same in practice, so maybe Juan really did mean
>to lump them together, and I'm not about to quibble on that point.)
>
>And of course, besides these four or five actual systems, there are "utopian"
>(read: unrealistic and probably dangerously stupid) attempts to critique
>them all, which try to build something new but which in fact just end up back
>at Fascism or maybe Absolutist Monarchism if we're lucky.
>
>BZZZZZT!! Thank you for playing.
>
>The Correct Answer is: None of the Above!
>
>Neither the array of two systems recognized by Linda (and by most people who
>haven't read much political theory)
I haven't read political theory but I won't let that stop me here --- fools
rush in
where angels fear to tread.
> nor that of four or so systems recognized
>by Juan (and most people who haven't had the good fortune to study under a
>brilliant, though largely unrecognized, political theorist) even comes close
>to exhausting the range of political systems that have been envisioned by
>human minds and practiced by human communities. This narrow spectrum of
>possibilities, along with the denigration of all differing thought as
>"utopian" (read: useless) is partly a product of the Cold War, in which the
>West in particular had to narrow the playing field so that its populations
>would be easier to control and to marshal against the Communist threat.
>
>Let no one imagine that I am defending Communism here! The point I am making
>is simply that, in the absence of forcible coercion as employed by both
>fascists and communists, Western liberal democracies have had to obtain the
>consent of the governed by any means necessary,
Any means necessary --- up till now lying and bribery. When was the last
time you
heard a politicial say something that was 100% true (remember that the best
lie is
90% the truth)? What is the time tested way to get reelected? Why, by
getting that
new federal project for the district, of course.
> and that has meant carefully
>educating [lying to --- DM] all but the highest levels of intellectual
elites (and even
>most of
>them, too) to think that we had to choose between Good and Evil, where Good
>is the right and true path of love-it-or-leave-it God-fearing patriotic blind
>loyalty to the good old U.S. of A. and its chosen allies, and *anything else*
>is on the slippery slope toward the Evil of Red Menace/Yellow Horde Godless
>Communism. Of course, all societies have done this sort of thing, but in the
>absence of forcible coercion, liberal democracies have made it a priority of
>survival in the Cold War to ensure that majorities of their populations
>actually believe this propaganda.
What is it about human nature that we automatically make everything in to a
dichotomy? This weary soul has never seen any situation that was either "A"
or "B".
Life has taught me that everything is on a sliding scale.
>The Cold War is over, but its legacy is still with us, even here on Talisman.
> Otherwise we would not be stuck in this rut, with some of our most brilliant
>minds arguing that the best the Baha'i Faith can do is choose an existing
>system and tinker with it to improve it a bit.
>
>Never would I imagine myself to have fully understood the implications of the
>Baha'i teachings for political theory, but at the very least I am sure that
>there is more to it than simply taking Social Democracy and making it
>Virtuous, or taking Absolutist Dictatorship and making it Benevolent.
Right on Bro'. The real revolution has finally arrived in the form of the
Faith.
(read ADJ)
>Let me emphasize this yet again: in refusing to accept the theory that
>Baha'u'llah would endorse the system widely called "democracy" I am BY NO
>MEANS trying to say that He would endorse any kind of dictatorship!
Also, as a caveat, let's remember that the USofA is not a democracy but a
republic ---
there is a big difference.
>What I really think is that no one has come anywhere near understanding what
>Baha'u'llah would endorse. Many of us may have pieces of it, whether we are
>already Baha'is or are not declared believers, but none of us will fully
>understand it unless and until we work together to begin building it.
Agreed. IMHO, part of it looks similar to a republic. The LSAs are the only
governing institution that is elected by direct participation. The NSAs and
the House
of Justice are elected by representatives of the general population.
>And before we can do that, we must recognize that it remains to be done --
>that the immortal System for which Baha'u'llah lived, and which He suffered
>forty years of imprisonment and exile to make possible, is not already in
>existence just waiting for a few tweaks and adjustments from His followers.
>
>Regards,
>Kevin Haines
>
Now if I may, let me offer a different perspective on classifying political
systems.
This many not be the Grand Unifying Theory (which physicists are looking for) of
the social side of life, but . . . I think this also can be used for all
personal
relationships, too.
Imagine a sliding scale from "100" on the left and "0" on the right --- or
reverse the
direction if it soothes your current political feelings ;-}. Now place
Absolutism at
"100" and Anarchy at "0".
When evaluating where a form of government, country, groups, even individuals
should be placed look at the method and amount of coercion used to govern or in
the case of people, how they relate to their husband, wife, siblings, etc.
In all cases
except Anarchy there is some amount of coercion, be it benign or oppressive.
Looks to simple? Perhaps, but as in physics, the simplest theory is often
the most
elegant.
OK Kevin, how do I score for an armature?
Doug Myers
nightbrd@humboldt1.com
"Nothing survives but the way we live our lives." JB
=END=
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 15:20:50 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Re: Dr. Burl?
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear obsessed
Reading of Economics books will be easier than taking outside cold
water showers in Alaska this time of the year for your affliction.
Though if your wife discovers what you have being posted on Talisman.
you will become a true frionter type by living outside for a few
months.
Dr.Uncle Derek, Dr.Burl's best friend and the one whom Linda loves most
Dear Ms. Linda,
Why do you oppose "Adam Smith Day?" I have been oredered to ask you and
convince you about its manifold (my big word for today) merits and to
send
some money to Drs. Derek and Burl. For the time being it is cheaper to
ask
the question and we shall see about the money. Also, I may be a bit too
dense to understand what Dr. Derek is saying, but maybe, you being such
a
well mannered and of great talent a person, could come to my rescue and
answer this question: What does reading books on Economics have to do
with
SEX? Dr. Derek, very kindly I must add, directs me to "go to your local
Dennys have a good breakfast but some backbone in yourself and get a
life.
If that doesn't work give yourself a good thrashing or tell your dear
wife
what you posted that should result in the jolly old hair flying." Maybe
he
is advocating S&M, but I am too pure to know anything about that. If he
thinks I am going to share any of this with my sweet wife, who breaths
fire
and eats economists for lunch, he is plain nuts! I will not, under any
circumstances, put myself in such peril for his sake, economist or not!
What
do you think?
Don't you think we should 'upgrade' 'Mr. Burl' to 'Dr. Burl' now?
Arsalan
Arsalan J. Sadighi
"Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
that is clearly none of your business!" Battista
=END=
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 16:04 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Megha Shyam
Subject: Re. Need Your Advice
Arsalan Writes -
>I am teaching a class to a wonderful group of pre-youth in our town. They
>are very bright and dedicated. This class is supposed to deepen them, ignite
>the love of Baha' in their hearts, and be relevant to their futures.
>We started with the "Hidden Words", "God Passes By," and the "Seven Habits
>of Highly Effective People." They are doing very well with the Seven
>Habits, and the Hidden Words, but they are having a serious problem reading
>God Passes By. I might have erred in my judgement choosing that book. We are
>at a point where we need to decide if we are going to continue with God
>Passes By, or choose another book. Does anyone have a suggestion on how I
>should approach this project? I really want to make this worthwhile for them
>and I do not want it to be a waste of their time and effort.
>Arsalan
>Arsalan J. Sadighi
Hi!
In my experience, for the age group you are referring to "God Passes By" in its
entirity is too much and sometimes too confusing for the pre-youth. Instead
why not take an approach wherein (assume that you have say 6-8 students)
divide the contents of let's say the first 100 pages or the book into a half
a dozen stories that tie through, have your class divide into 3-4 groups of
2 each,
have them construct a story of 4-5 pages for them to share with the rest of the
class, or make a time map of the period in question (Say Bab's ministry
period, and
how and where did Bab spend all those six years, tie it to a map of Iran and
Iraq),
have them show off and explain their project to their fellow students etc.
I always found that having the children constantly involved in rediscovering
and putting
their understanding on the project helps a great deal and they never forget
it. As the
year proceeds and after one project is over, regroup the students and start
a new
group and project.
Megha Shyam
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 19:16:48 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: Dancing
Dear Phillip , Alma and Sen ,
Alma : Exactly ! It is the Holy of Holies and we are all the high
priests !
Consider the cultural and political implications of this . No priests
yet we are all high priests - of our own Temple . This is a profiundly
radical spiritual denocracy and institutions exist to "protect and safeguard
men , women and children " that they might " testify" in themselves and by
themselves " in the station of the Manifestation of your Lord , That Thou
art God ."
Phillip : there is a distinction to be made between the institutions as
Sen has pointed out . In the case of the Mashriqu l Adhkar we need to
understand that it is a multi-faceted institution . The House of Worship is
not in toto the Mashriqu . It is, as Shoghi Effendi mentions in Bahai
Administration , the "central shrine of the Mashriqu l Adhkar." I could make
a case for not dancing within the central shrine - the Holy of Holies as Alma
mentioned - and I could make a case for it . I believe that will vary from
community to community. Even if a community chose to not dance in the House
of Worship that does not in any way preclude dancing in the sacred space
which constitutes the Mashriqu l Adhkar, either in or near the grounds of the
House or in the adjacent *space * which is surrounded by the "spiritual
energies radiating from the central shrine." there are a whole host of
activities which will exist within the larger institutional comlpex that
constitutes the Mashriq. . If you want to dance in a House let us know .
When it is finally erected in Omaha you have an invitation . There is an LSA
here which understands its role to be that of developing the spiritual
capacities of the believers so as to asist them to "Know Thee and to Worship
Thee' and to translate that "knowledge", inner and outer, into
"disinterested service to mankind.". I suspect *dance* may just be the ticket
for one Philip Belove . And I agree it is a form of prayer.
Sen: Thanks for the reminder that a Bahai center is , to steal from the
Guardian in another context , " a temporary appellation" which will be
superceded in due time by a " more appropriate designation.". Just as LSA's
will become Houses of Justice so will , I believe , Bahai centers evolve into
Mashriq's and Houses of Justice . I just wish we would get on with the
raising up of these Houses which the Guardian said would be the place all
would "seek shelter" . You might get me to walk across the strret and not
yawn about a Bahai center but I guarantee you will get me energized and
committed to the Mashriqu l Adhkar . It is the outer expression of my *being*
=END=
From: Ray Masrour
To: "'TALISMAN'"
Subject: Re: Need your advise
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 17:29:00 PST
Dear Arsalan: Allah'u'Abha:
You did not clarify the type of problem that the children are having with
God Passes By. Is it too difficult for them to read and understand? Or is it
that the subject does not interest them?
If you intend to stay with the history of the Faith, I recommend, 'Release
the Sun' by the beloved and departed Hand of the Cause Mr. William Sears. It
is written for the preyouth and youth age groups and covers the history of
the Faith during the Babi period.. If you wish to change the theme, try
'Portals to Freedom', by H.C. Ives, possibly the most heart warming,
inspiring and instructive book I have read on the fundementals of the Faith.
It is his account of meeting Abdul'Baha in New York,in 1912 and details of
his acceptance of the Faith. We are reading it in my Sunday morning class of
8th and 9th graders and they are enjoying it very much.
Regards,
Riaz
=END=
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 1996 14:39:01 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: Re: Dancing in the Temple
Dear Alma,
In Iran there was a famous saying that Baha'is when gathered turned out the
lights and swapped wives. Everytime I approached anyone about the Faith, one
of the very first questions was why do Baha'is do such a thing. Mind you,
they never asked whether it was true or not, but why did Baha'is, who on
surface were pretending to be so moral, performed such despicable acts. This
was a very serious problem, and it still is. My own very cousin who is very
Western minded and graduated from art school from England and U.S., who
lives in San Francisco, asked me the very same question recently.
By saying this, I would like to simply some of the problems that this
beleagured commnity has had confront everywhere, but particularly in Iran.
Second, sometimes we are not aware of the consequences of our acts. I
believe, my opinion only, that sometimes it is best to trust the judgement
of the institutions simply because they are aware of past histories,
incidents, and guidances from many different sources that individual Baha'is
are not. The National Spiritual Assemblies, according to the beloved
Guradian, should explain their reasonings, and not remain aloof and give the
perception of being a dictatorial body. By no means I am implying that any
National Assembly has been aloof and dictatorial, specially the senior
institution of U.S, but what I am saying is that you should contact them and
ask questions. Often it is the lack of communication between the believers
and the institutions that is the cause of problems.
Arsalan J. Sadighi
"Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
that is clearly none of your business!" Battista
=END=
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 96 20:16:38 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Adam Smith Day
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Arsalon, I got onto e-mail this evening to do some business correspondence
but found your message and feel a need to respond as it is obviously of
extreme importance.
Why do I so strongly oppose Adam Smith Day? Well, off the top of my head - and
considering that I have never thought about it before - I would say that I
oppose it so adamantly because it is such a boring name. Look, in this little
burg that I am forced to live in, there are 537 Smiths listed. Why would I
want any of them to feel they have a special name when it is such a common one?
And the name Adam. Well, we feminist ninja types just can't forgive that guy
Adam for placing all the blame on Eve.
So, here you have another well thought out, stimulating, highly intellectual
Talisman posting. Add it to the zillion others you have been collecting to
enhance your vocabulary and writing style.
And look at how much money I've saved you. I'll be glad to answer any and all
questions free of charge. Linda
=END=
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 96 11:32:27 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Dear Dr. Burl:
Dear Dr. Burl:
In part three of Professor Coles "Poetics" article, the following quote
can be encountered:
"Neither the Ten Sessions nor the passion plays of Iran ever
included a dramatization of Jesus's death, since popular Islam
tended, in *docetic* fashion, to deny the crucifixion."
Could you please expound learnedly on the meaning of "docetic"?
Intellectual-challenged.
=END=
Date: Thu, 1 Feb 1996 02:10:58 +0000
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: S.N.Lambden@newcastle.ac.uk (Stephen Lambden)
Subject: TABLETS OF BAHA'U'LLAH 2
** MAJOR TITLED TABLETS OF THE THE IRAQ PERIOD 1853-1863 CE (TB. 2A -> 2C) **
I have earlier posted a note and provisional translation of the
earliest extant Tablet of Baha'u'llah dating from the pre-Iraq period, the
*Rashh-i ama'*This may be chronologically identified as TB [=Tablet of
Baha'u'llah].1:01. It appears to be the only extant writing of the Babi
period 1844-50 (??) and the few years prior to Baha'u'llah's dwelling in
Iraq (1853-1863) --I personally feel that material will be discovered -- if
it has'nt already been -- dating from these years.
In certain of his writings Baha'u'llah claims to have written a
great deal during his (early) years in Iraq:
"After Our arrival [in Iraq] We revealed as a copious rain, by the
aid of God and His Divine grace and mercy, Our verses, and sent them to
various parts of the world."
Relatively few of these writings, however, are published or readily
available; especially those written prior to the late 1850's. Those which
are printed or may be identified in mss. contain many hitherto neglected
features of interest. They may be divided into three (unequal) groups
totalling more than 30 titled Tablets;
TB.2A [around 1 year] only a few known and titled Tablets
TB.2B [approx. 2 years]; less than ten known titled Tablets.
TB.2C [8 years].The majority of Tablets from the Iraq period date from the
last eight years.
TB.2A
During the first Iraq period [April 1853--> April 1854] Baha'u'llah
was largely resident in Baghdad. This period is that of writngs composed in
Iraq before the withdrawal to `Iraqi Kurdistan in April1854 CE.
* TB.2A-01 = *Lawh-i Kull al-ta`am* [Arabic] ("The Tablet of All Food").
This Tablet was addressed to Hajji Mirza Kamal al-Din Naraqi (d. Naraq c.
1298-9 / c.1881). An inadequate printed text is printed in *Ma'ida-yi
Asmani* 4:265-276 and a slightly better one in *Rahiq-i makhtum*
2:416-426). A superior photocopied ms. is to be found in INBAMC 36:268-277
(see following postings)
The *Lawh-i Kull al-ta`am* is, loosely speaking, an esoteric
commentary on Qur'an 3:87 [93], "All food (kull al-ta`am) was lawful to
the Children of Israel save what Israel [=Jacob] forbade for himself before
the Torah was sent down. Say: `Bring you the Torah now, and recite it, if
ye are truthful." (trans. Arberry).`Abu'l-Hasan `Ali al-Wahidi (d.468/1075)
in his *Asbab al-nuzul* ("Circumstances of the Revelations" of quran'ic
verses) has explained that the revelation of Qur'an 3:87 was occassioned
by Jews contesting the claim of Muhammad to follow the faith of Abraham
since he ate the meat and drank the milk of the camel -- allegedly
forbidden by Abraham (cf. Genesis 32:32[33]). Hence the revelation of the
verse in question (see Searle, *The Bible and the Qur'an* 111). Informed by
Sufi terminology and Babi concerns, Baha'u'llah's spiritual or eisegetical
explanation operates on another level than that indicated by the
*Sitz im Leben* (original `setting in life') of a "paradisiacal" Qur'anic
verse [Q.3:87], deemed a "choice fruit, divine song and heavenly pearl",
with "subtle meanings endless in their infinitude." (III:7).
Probably written in late 1853 or early 1854 (1270 AH) it is
essentially a reply to a question of the Babi Hajji Mirza Kamal al-Din
Naraqi about this qur'anic verse. He had travelled to Iraq in the hope of
meeting Mirza Yahya from whom he initially requested a commentary on Qur'an
3:87. Apparently unimpressed with Mirza Yahya's response (no longer
extant?) he sought enlightenment from Baha'u'llah.
Written in a somewhat abstruse and gramatically loose Arabic
revelatory style, a variety of meanings are given to the terms "food"
(ta`am), "Israel" and "children of Israel" in the *Lawh-i kull al-ta` m*.
Towards the beginning of this "tablet" the mystical significance of "food"
(ta`am) is related to
a hierarchy of paradises and metaphysical realms well-known in theosophical
Sufism; those of *Hahut* (= the realm of the Divine Ipseity); *Lahut* (=
the realm of the Divine Theophany); *Jabarut* (= the realm of the `Divine
Decrees/spiritual powers'); *Malakut* (= the Heavenly Kingdom or realm of
the angels) and *Nasut* (= the realm of creation) (see trans. III:10ff)
Having set down these esoteric meanings of "food" (ta`am) Baha'u'llah
laments his sad plight, alludes to the faith status of Mirza Kamal al-Din
(drawing on Q. 18:17-18) and expresses his intention to expound Qur'an 3:87
still further. He explains that "food" also signifies the "essence of
knowledge"
(nafs al- `ilm) or all branches of learning; "Israel" the "Primal Point"
(nuqtat al-ula; the Bab) and the "children of Israel" one whom God made a
"Proof" (hujjat) for the people "in these days" (= Yahya/Baha'u'llah?).
The phrase "except what Israel made unlawful for itself" refers to that
which the Bab made unlawful "for his elevated ones and his servants" (the
Babis). Most probably countering the antinomian tendencies of a Babi
faction -- who may have cited Qur'an 3:87 in support of their antimonian
stance -- the need to follow the Babi law is underlined (III:9f)
"..[9] Let not the actions of those who have been spreading wickedness in
the land veil you [Mirza Kamal al-Din]. They suppose that they are rightly
guided.[10] Nay! By the Lord of the Realm of the Divine Cloud ! They are
liars and calumniators. [11] The nature of that party is such that they
should never be allowed to eat even barley in these days. [12] How then,
can they possibly be allowed to eat what God hath forbidden in the Book? So
praised be He, praised be He above that which the associators [polytheists]
assert."
Having thus explained, Baha'u'llah, in the light of Mirza Kamal al-Din's
having been "irradiated through the orient light of the splendours of the
Morn of Eternity" (subh al-aza l= `turned to Mirza Yayha as the head of
the exiled Babi community?), identifies "food" (ta`am) with the "bearer
of the Cause" (sahib
al-amr = Mirza Yahya/ Baha'u'llah?). "Israel" in this connection
signifies the "primal will" (al-mashiyyat al-ula/awwaliyya?) by means of
which God created everything, while the "children of Israel" are those who
attained faith in the Bab from the "year sixty" (= 1260/1844) and
thereafter those who have and will
come to believe in him untilthe Divine Theophany at the eschatological
consummation (for Baha'is = Baha'u'llah/the Baha'i Faith).
Still further interpretations of the key terms in Qur'an 3:87 are
given towards the end of the *Lawh kull al-ta`am. At one point Baha'u'llah
explains this verse in the light of the Islamic dispensation -- calling to
mind the Bab's earlier explanations of "Israel" and the "children of
Israel" in his *Tafsir Surat al-Baqara* ("Commentary on the Sura of the
Cow" = Qur'an II)
[VIII]
"[1] O Thou Faithful One! If you be of those who dwell in the
Snow-White Forest, the Isle of the Criterion (al-Furqan= the Qur'an), then
know that "food" signifieth the [personified] Custodianship (al-wilaya)
which God decreed for His people. [2] The intention of "Israel" in this
connection is the Point of the Criterion (al-Furqan = the Qur'an) and of
the "children of Israel" His trustees [= the Imams] who succeeded Him
[Muhammad] and by means of Whom God recompenseth His righteous servants."
He then explains that for those who "dwell in the "Crimson Isle"
(jazirat al-amr), the "Orchard of the Bayan" (hadiqat al-bayan; i.e. the
Babis) the "food" (ta` m) of the Islamic *wilaya* (see above) is abandoned
and the "Primal Point" or Bab is desired. For Babis, in other words, the
Islamic dispensation has been abrogated. "Israel" furthermore signifies the
"Last Objective" (wijhat al-ukhra), the "Mystery of Endless Duration" (sirr
al-samadaniya) [allusions to Quddus?) and the "Countenance of Light"
(tal`at al-nur), the "Disengaged [Isolated] Theophany" (mujarrad
al-zuhur), the "Temple of the Divine Unicity" (haykal al-ahadiyya) whom
the aggressors caused to be "imprisoned in the land"
and "concealed in the cities" (allusions to Mirza Yahya?).
Finally Baha'u'llah identifies the "food" (ta`am) mentioned in Qur'an
3:87 with "the Ocean of the Unseen (bahr al-ghayb) which is hidden in the
"Scrolls of Light" (saha'if al-nur) and treasured up in the Inscribed
Tablets (alwah al-mastur) perhaps meaning Babi sacred writings. "Israel"
signifies the
"Manifestation of the Command" (mazhar al-amr = Mirza Yahya?) and the
"children of Iarael" the "people of the Bay n" (ahl al-bayan =the Babis)
for whom the "food" (ta`am) of the Babi revelation is permitted -- if they
are sincere Babis who derive spiritual sustenance from the true
fountainhead of
guidance.
* * * * * * * * *
PS. These breif and incomplete notes are not a full introduction or
commentary upon all the intricate historical and other aspects of the
*Lawh-i kull al-ta`am* . For details see the forthcoming revised printing
of BSB 3:1 (originally June 1984), 4-67.
PPS. Quddus appears to be alluded to at various points in the *Lawh-i kull
al-ta`am* . At VI:15f he is explicitly mentioned in highly exalted terms
-- it is evident that he and Baha'u'llah were very, very close.
"[15] So Ah! Alas! If the Last Point, the Countenance of My Love,
Quddus were alive he would assuredly weep over my plight and would lament
that which hath befallen me. [16] And I, for My part, would at this moment
beseech his eminence and supplicate his holiness that he would enable Me to
ascend unto the court of His might and recline on the cushion of his
sanctity as I was wont to do in those days [now past] when I was free of
the aforementioned misfortunes. [17] O Lord! Cast patience upon Me and make
Me to be victorious over the transgressors."
PROVISIONAL TRANSLATION TO FOLLOW IN TWO PARTS.
Stephen N. Lambden
44 Queens Road, Jesmond,
Newcastle upon Tyne, NE2 2PQ
England. U.K.
Voice/Fax. +44 [0] 191. 2818597
Email S.N.Lambden@ncl.ac.uk
=END=
[end of 1/31/96 session]
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