Talisman Bahai Archives Jan. 27-29, 1996
Jan 27-29, 1996
Talisman emails received 1/27/96
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 16:53:16 +1200
To: Juan R Cole , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: we are being watched
At 7:08 PM 26/1/96, Juan R Cole wrote:
>Robert Johnston has said that I have advocated allowing the person with
>alleged covenant-breaker ties to stay subscribed to Talisman.
A couple of points. One: I actually wrote, "Juan thinks that he should be
allowed to stay." Which I think is/was correct. Two: I remember thinking
-- at the time, upon reading the letter -- that Juan was mistaken in
thinking that CBs might be [something like] vanquished by having their
positions exposed in discourse... It seemed to me that he was
under-estimating the corrupting power of CBs. According to my reading of
the Writings they are simply not to be fooled around with.
However, much as I'd like to slam the jallopy into reverse and re-examine
in detail Juan's earlier letter, I've decided against sending out a call to
Eric for a copy. I'd rather simply say, "Juan: I am sorry if I was wrong."
Of course Juan could re-post his earlier letter himself.
But...BUT...already this is starting to sound like a witch-hunt, and I'd
rather letter the matter of the earlier letter go. Huh!!!
Anyhow, I'd like to hear more from Cr. Birkland on this matter.
Robert.
PS I wonder how this situation compares with that in which officers of
Baha'i HQ (US) were removed from the list. Brent?
=END=
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 23:46:29 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Timothy A. Nolan"
To: jrcole@umich.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: From Birkland 1/26
Juan R Cole writes:
> 1) The Covenant has not either been challenged on Talisman,
Juan, I disagree. On Talisman, the Universal House of Justice has
been accused of being the "perpetrator of injustice". This
in spite of the clear text of the Master's Will and Testament.
Abdu'l Baha has been described as "confused". This in spite of the
clear, magnificent, awe-inspiring words of Baha'u'llah on the subject
of the Most Great Branch.
These are only two examples that I could think of quickly. There
have been many more occasions on which the Covenant has been
overtly challenged in this group. Other challenges have been
more subtle.
> except if one has the most narrow-minded view of it.
This is a variation of the Emporer's New Clothes argument. In that
story, anyone who was unable to see the Emporer's new (nonexistent)
clothes was, by that inablity, deemed unfit for his position.
Here you say that anyone who thinks the Covenant has been challenged
on Talisman must be narrow-minded. Of course, if someone is
narrow-minded, then there is no need to seriously consider what he says.
j> The Covenant is....[deleted]
The Covenant is what Baha'u'llah said it is, what Abdu'l Baha said it is,
what Shoghi Effendi said it is, what the Universal House of Justice
says it is. They alone have the wisdom and divinely guided authority
to define what the Covenant is. Fallible human beings have no
authority at all to make such definitions.
Tim Nolan
=END=
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 22:50:06 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: we are being watched
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Robert Johnston" ,
"Juan Cole" , "Talisman"
I wrote to another believer:
> I feel I have to agree with Juan to a certain extent
>because cyberspace is a new situation not like being in a building
>together. For example, one wouldn't be expected to leave town because a
>covenant-breaker lived it--at least I hope that's not so. I would be
>satisfied to be directed to "ignore" and "avoid "communications from this
>person--that would be my recommendation if you are taking a sampling of
>the believers thoughts to pass along. You know this person could always
>return in another guise if they were forced off and we wouldn't Know it.
>The Master said, "Keep your friends close--but your enemies closer." This
>way we could keep an eye on their activities and not be fooled if they
>slip away.
This is my basic view. I believe we can avoid this person in the same
way we would normally avoid a CB by not ascociating with them. They are
still going to breath the same air as us no matter what we do.
Naturally, this cyberspace thing takes looking into but I believe we must
maintain our integrity of approach to every situation and like the Master
has commanded not make decisions based on superstition, or prejudice.
Don't get me wrong (And I feel certain someone will) we are supposed to
avoid these people like the plague and I will, but I don't feel we should
jump to any conclusions about precisely how this matter should be handled.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 20:39:41 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: 10 books Sherman's comments.
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismanians
Our beloved leader wishes it be known that such surveys are biased
against Cats. For example when did you last see a book on gopher
hunting in the raw or nail that Squirrel. Sherman says the training of
the mighty Bobo aka the Shadow would have proceeded much quicker if the
right literature was available.
His humble Scribe
Derek Cockshut
PS Veteran Talismanians and Sherman devotees will be happy to know the
first Sherman and Bobo story is brewing . Look in the near future for
the Training of Bobo
=END=
From: l.droege@genie.geis.com
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 96 04:25:00 UTC 0000
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: favorite books / nobody
I read a _lot_ of books, so it's tough to come up with a list. But
here are a few favorites (excluding Baha'i stuff):
Brown: Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee
Spong: Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism
Miller: Plagues and Peoples
Maya Kaathryn Bohnhoff: Taminy; The Meri; The Crystal Rose (haven't
yet read The Spirit Gate)
Elizabeth Moon: The Deed of Paksennarion (Sheepfarmer's Daughter,
Divided Allegiance, & Oath of Gold)
Patricia A. McKillip: The Forgotten Beasts of Eld
McKillip (again): The Riddlemaster of Hed, Heir of Sea and Fire, Harpist
in the Wind
Anne Perry: "Inspector William Monk" series
Elizabeth Peters: The Jackal's Head
Assorted "Star Trek" novels (they're better than one would think).
I have purchased, but not yet read, The Celestine Prophecy.
Oh yeah-- Umberto Eco: Foucault's Pendulum (long but fascinating),
& Dan Simmons: Phases of Gravity.
Oops-- that's more than ten and I can still think of some (but I'll stop
now :) ).
BTW I got posted by nobody@replay.com today; he/she _must_ be getting
our names from the Talisman list-- other than this I keep a very low
profile on the net (I was actually double-posted-- must mean I'm
special ).
Leigh
=END=
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 96 08:17:03+030
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: Re: 10 Books, Halo effect and response bias
Dear Sandy and Burl:
Yes, I do have a bias in my choices of books, mostly based on how they make
me feel, and the associations they call up for me and the personal parallels
in my life...let me explain.
Winnie the Pooh - I continue to delight in the simplicity and uncomplicated
responses of pooh and his friends...have done ever since I first read it to
our children. It has also been a great guide for me in life to ask myself,
"What would Pooh have done?" (I think Abdul'-Baha and Pooh would have been
great friends.)
The Tao of Pooh - It is nice to know that Pooh and I are one.
Lamont the Lonely Monster - a great treatise on what we lose when prejudice
exists, and what we gain when it is overcome.
The Velveteen Rabbit - a sympathetic discourse on love, friendship and values.
Leaves of Grass - sheer poetry.
Rama II - intriguing little futuristic novel, good fun.
Dune (series) - politics and the pheonix rising all in one. Also very
entertaining, good vs. evil and all that.
The Source - love the way Mitchner explores religious development...reminds
me that we, too, are capable of creating gods to meet our needs.
Graveyard for Dreamers - a must of a read for anyone who has ever splashed
around in a bucket of water and thought that there was an impression left
when they were gone.
Four on an Island - shear inspiriation.
We don't have many bookstores in Africa, and even fewer libraries. Although
I use to read a lot, I somehow got involved with people (children, husbands,
friends and not so friendly), and don't have a lot of time for reading
anymore. However, as we are leaving Uganda this June heading for we don't
know what, we could well find ourselves back in Canada looking for
employment (click my ruby slippers and "I wish...I wish...I wish..." If
that doesn't work, I'll cash in the Ruby Slippers and buy a plane ticket.)
In which case, please note that I am making a list and checking it twice on
some of the titles mentioned by folks...the ones which are too heavy to
carry home from the library I will likely leave for the more serious
scholars. Some of them I have tried to obtain, but failed. It always
seemed to take 6 weeks to 2 months for a book store to get a title, and the
library never had it.
Love,
Bev.
>Dear Talismans,
>
>
>Burl questions the honesty of our reporting on our 10 favorite books. Might
>we possibly be exhibiting a response bias, he asks diplomatically???
>
>(All right, full disclosure. I admit that I can never pass a Sara Paretsky or
>a Margaret Atwood {didn't everyone love The Robber Bride} or anything by
>Grisham--don't you love his new one The Rain Maker? Not to mention Robert
>Jordan's amazing 6-book science fiction series, The Wheel of Time. Andwhat
>about Gail Sheeny's New Passages?)
>
>As for biases, anyone doing survey research knows that there are three main
>sources of response bias which seriously compromise both validity and
>reliability of self-reported data and produce spurious relationships with
>other variables:
>
>1. The approval motive: People select answers on the basis of what response
>is socially desirable and proper rather than on the basis of their true
>preference.
>
>2. Self-flattery: People make choices which portray themselves in a favorable
>light.
>
>3. Response set: People answer similar items in the same way.
>
>Are any of these operating when we write our lists? Maybe, but things are a
>little more complicated since we all like more than 10 book, and read
>different genre for different reasons.
>
>Best,
>Sandy
>
>
=END=
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 00:10:15 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Timothy A. Nolan"
To: friberg@will.brl.ntt.jp, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: status quo and utopia
Someone wrote:
>> First, we should map out the ideological world in which we live. The
>> political "right" refers to systems that value unquestioned
>> authority, hierarchy, unequal distribution of power and wealth. The
>> political "left" values egalitarianism, the dispersal and
>> distribution of wealth and power . . .
I say that map is severely biased.
I suggest the "right" is not so completely bad, and the "left is
certainly not so innocent and good as this. I don't deny what you
have said, but I think this analysis is incomplete and therefore
unfair. In my view, admittedly non-scholarly, the "right" also
supports respect for legitimate authority, and accepting responsibility
for one's own actions. Both of these are admirable positions, I think.
Authority is not the same as authoritarianism.
The left is not as pure and moral as you have described it.
The left advocates, and actually carries out, mass murder. The left
advocates condescension toward the poor classes, who are seen
to be the victims of "false consciousness". (i.e. "You don't know
what is really good for you; we who are more enlightened and more
morally elevated will tell you what you should think"). Now,
I admit the "right" does this too. My point is only that it is
unfair to portray either the right or the left as morally better
than the other. They each have good principles and bad ones.
Tim Nolan
=END=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 23:40:38 -0600
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Steve Jordan
Subject: RE: 10 Favorite Books
As I started to compile my list, I was reminded of an old Peanuts cartoon
where Charlie Brown and Schroder are lying on their backs looking at
clouds. Charlie Brown asks Schroder what he sees. Schroder launches into a
long discourse on how it reminds him of the present state of mankind and
various other weighty subjects. Schroder then turns to Charlie Brown and
asks what he sees. Charlie Brown replies, "Well, I was going to say a ducky
and a horse..."
Anyway, here is my list, in no particular order:
- Slaughterhouse Five - Vonnegut (as well as many others of his)
- Don Juan, A Yaqui Way of Knowledge - Casteneda
- Biography of Malcom X
- Electric KoolAid Acid Test - Wolf
- Lathe of Heaven - (Can't remember who it's by)
- Dune - Herbert
- Stranger in a Strange Land - Heinlein
- Tom Clancy books
- Grisham books (Okay, so I read mostly for fun)
- Anything by Rush Limbaugh (Just kidding. I wanted to see if anybody was
paying attention) ;-)
Thanks for starting this thread, I have a good list to take to the library
next time.
Steve Jordan
jordan@iapc.net
=END=
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 22:29:23 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: frlw@midway.uchicago.edu, Masumian@mail.utexas.edu,
Noorbakhsh.Monzavi@hibo.no
Subject: Reuters 1/26/96 (fwd)
> 'IRAN' STORIES
>Transmission date: 96/01/26
> 1. 10:29 GERMAN PROSECUTORS INVESTIGATE IRANIAN SPY CHIEF
> 2. 10:20 UKRAINE TO BUILD PASSENGER AIRCRAFT IN IRAN
>Transmission date: 96/01/25
> 3. 18:32 IRAN PROTESTS OVER GERMAN NUCLEAR CHARGES
> 4. 16:55 MINE FROM IRAN-IRAQ WAR KILLS TWO IRANIAN OFFICERS
> 5. 16:26 IRAN GAS EXPLOSION KILLS ONE, WRECKS BUILDING
>
>=START= XMT: 10:29 Fri Jan 26 EXP: 0 :00 Mon Jan 29
>
>
> German prosecutors investigate Iranian spy chief
> By Fiona Fleck
> BONN, Jan 26 (Reuter) - German prosecutors are investigating possible links
>between Iran's intelligence minister and the killing of four exiled Kurds in an
>inquiry that could lead to a warrant for his arrest, a spokesman said on
>Friday.
> Rolf Hannich, spokesman for the Federal Prosecutors' Office, said that the
>investigation of Ali Fallahiyan was prompted by allegations that Tehran had
>ordered five suspected Iranian agents to kill the Kurdish activists in Berlin
>in 1992.
> The five are now on trial for murder.
> ``The (trial's) evidence indicates that it was a deed steered by an
>intelligence agency. That's why we launched an investigation into the Iranian
>intelligence minister in November,'' Hannich told Reuters.
> Asked whether prosecutors would issue a warrant for Fallahiyan's arrest,
>Hannich said: ``That has yet to be decided, I cannot say at present.''
> Tehran has denied allegations that Fallahiyan had masterminded the
>assassinations. An official from Germany's counter-intelligence agency
>testified in court on Thursday that Iran's Intelligence Ministry had
>masterminded the attack by sending agents to Germany to help carry out the
>gangland-style killings.
> Klaus Gruenewald, a senior official from the Federal Office for Protection
>of the Constitution (BfV) did not however mention Fallahiyan by name.
> Bilateral relations are already strained. Iran protested formally to Bonn
>on Thursday over a German official's remarks that Tehran had tried to obtain
>nuclear materials illegally.
> Bonn, which maintains what it calls a ``critical dialogue'' with Iran,
>distanced itself from Tehran in November when parliament voted to exclude
>Iranian Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Velayati from a conference in Bonn.
> It said it was inappropriate to host him after Tehran praised Israeli Prime
>Minister Yitzhak Rabin's assassination.
> The five defendants in the Berlin trial are charged with murdering three
>leaders of the Iranian Democratic Party of Kurdistan (DPK-I) and their
>translator.
> The four Kurdish exiled activists were shot dead in a Berlin restaurant in
>September 1992.
> Iran's ambassador to Bonn, Hossein Mousavian, lodged a protest with Bernd
>Schmidbauer, Chancellor Helmut Kohl's intelligence coordinator, about remarks
>by Germany's BND secret service head Konrad Porzner, the official IRNA new
>agency said.
> Porzner told a parliamentary committee last week his agency had proof Iran
>and Iraq were trying through intermediaries to buy nuclear materials on the
>black market.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 10:20 Fri Jan 26 EXP: 0 :00 Mon Jan 29
>
>
> Ukraine to build passenger aircraft in Iran
> ZAPORIZHA, Ukraine, Jan 26 (Reuter) - Ukraine will provide Iran with the
>technology to build passenger aircraft after winning an international tender,
>the director of Ukraine's largest aircraft engine plant said.
> Vyacheslav Boguslayev, head of the Motor-Sich plant in the eastern city of
>Zaporizha, told visiting President Leonid Kuchma on Thursday that a contract
>had already been signed to build the new Antonov-140 short-haul turbo-prop
>plane.
> ``We have signed a contract with the Iranians. A delegation of their
>experts is currently here,'' Boguslayev said.
> Boguslayev said that Antonov won the contract against competition from 11
>other firms, including Russia's Ilyushin, Fokker, British Aerospace and Saab of
>Sweden.
> Interfax Ukraine news agency quoted a government official as saying that
>plant would be built in the central Iranian city of Esfahan and Ukraine would
>provide technology and training.
> Experts estimate initial capacity of the Iranian plant at 10 planes per
>year and say the project will cost $4 billion.
> The 52-seat An-140, which is also capable of carrying 4.9 tonnes of cargo,
>is intended to replace the An-24 in wide use in the former Soviet Union and
>other countries.
> Boguslayev said that a prototype was 35 percent complete and Ukraine
>intended to launch its own production by 1998.
> He also said the An-70 cargo aircraft was 80 percent complete. A prototype
>of the An-70, promoted as a potential export earner, crashed on a test flight
>last year near Kiev.
> Relations between Ukraine and Iran are warm and Kiev hopes to alleviate its
>dependency on Russian imports by buying Iranian oil. None has so far been
>imported in the absence of proper Ukrainian oil terminals and pipelines.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 18:32 Thu Jan 25 EXP: 8 :00 Sun Jan 28
>
>
> Iran protests over German nuclear charges
> TEHRAN, Jan 25 (Reuter) - Iran has protested to Germany over a German
>official's remarks that Tehran tried to illegally obtain nuclear materials, the
>official news agency IRNA said on Thursday.
> It said ambassador Hossein Mousavian lodged a protest with Bernd
>Schmidbauer, Chancellor Helmut Kohl's intelligence coordinator, about remarks
>by Germany's BND secret service head Konrad Porzner.
> ``According to Mousavian, smugglers of nuclear materials might make such
>allegations, but for the German intelligence agency to accept such claims,
>speaks of ``naivety' and is ``unacceptable','' the agency said.
> Porzner told a parliamentary committee last week his agency had proof Iran
>and Iraq were trying through intermediaries to buy nuclear materials on the
>black market
> Mousavian said Iran had voiced readiness to cooperate with Germany against
>the proliferation of nuclear arms, and that any remaining doubts would be
>removed through such cooperation, IRNA added.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 16:55 Thu Jan 25 EXP: 6 :00 Sun Jan 28
>
>
> Mine from Iran-Iraq war kills two Iranian officers
> TEHRAN, Jan 25 (Reuter) - A landmine planted in the 1980-1988 Iran-Iraq war
>has killed an Iranian military officer and a policeman, the official news
>agency IRNA said on Thursday.
> It said a funeral was held in the western city of Kermanshah for army Major
>Mohsen Jamshidi and police Lieutenant Seddiq Assadi who were killed last week
>when they stepped on the mine near the Iraqi border.
> Scores of villagers and shepherds are killed or injured each year by mines
>or other explosives left over from the war.
> Iran says it has cleared several million mines from the former war zones.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 16:26 Thu Jan 25 EXP: 6 :00 Sun Jan 28
>
>
> Iran gas explosion kills one, wrecks building
> TEHRAN, Jan 25 (Reuter) - A gas tank exploded in the basement of a city
>centre restaurant in Tehran on Thursday, killing one person and injuring 15,
>the Iranian news agency IRNA said.
> The blast flattened the four-storey building, it added.
> IRNA said the two-tonne gas container was being moved when it fell,
>starting a gas leak which caused the blast.
>
>=END=
>
>
>
>
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 96 19:17:44 PST
Subject: CB's in the wood pile
To: talisman@indiana.edu
I'm probably naive in this. I am the type who likes to stick a wet
toe in the hot socket to see what people are talking about.
I do know that there are dangerous people to associate with, but at
this time in my life I have a pretty good nose.
"Twas Faith that led me safe thus far and Faith will lead me Home."
> The fact that various statements made on Talisman challenge or
> undermine the Covenant is serious in itself, but is doubly so
> in the presence of Covenant-breakers or their supporters, since
> such statements provide ammunition with which they could
> further their efforts to subvert the very unity of the Baha'i
> Faith that the Covenant was established to preserve.
I'd heard that At the Conference in Florida there was a lot of talk
about us wild and crazy guys on Talisman and that some of the gossip
was to better stay away from Talisman and the Talisman conversation
is being monitored and etc.
For me that is a kind of paternalism. I really don't like having any
one tell me what to listen to or not listen to. And I don't like
having people say that this beautiful conversation is to be avoided.
What in God's name am I dealing with here? I'm even afraid to be
speaking so brashly now. Will I get into trouble. I hate this.
I've been talking and talking with a friend of mine whose been a
Bahai for many years and we go round and round on this subject. I
know people were Bahais and are no longer becuase of this issue. I
know people who are Bahais but don't affiliate with local groups
because of this topic.
And yet and yet.
I just finished a meeting with some local community organizers and
they explained to me the necessity of a certain competitive stance
and I knew in my heart that with a little dedication and cleverness
we could find a way to make the situation work through cooperatively.
And I said to myself. Hmmm, I must be becoming a Bahai. I do
understand the beauty of a committment to unity. How is shunning in
line with that?
Did Baha'ullah ever tell us to shun people?
I really don't understand this business.
I don't have an intelligent opinion about whether he/she should stay
or not. All I know is that I don't like having to deal with
censorship.
Maybe it's like abortion; horrific, but necessary at times.
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/26/96
Time: 19:17:44
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 96 22:28 PST
To: "Richard C. Logan"
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: re: human rights
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
>> That is a reified solution if I
>>ever heard one .
>
>
He meant "refried" -- this is a remarkable and stimulating comment: "a
refried solution if I ever heard one" crosses the cordoned borders of
sensory allocation and thus compels us to reexamine our twice cooked
half-baked over-chewed and partially digested concepts.
As the wise man said: "waste is terrible refried, mind you."
Burl
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
Unlimited!
********************************************************
=END=
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 96 22:43 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: CB's in the wood pile
Belove asked:
>Did Baha'ullah ever tell us to shun people?
Yes. Covenant Breakers as they carry a highly contagious spiritual
disease. Typhoid Mary was a charming, innocent lady who carried a deadly
contagious disease. Covenant Breakers also carry a disease, but they are
not innocent. They know "exactly" what they are doing. It is a rare disease,
but a real one. Read The Covenant of Baha'u'llah for complete astonishing
details.
BB
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
Unlimited!
********************************************************
=END=
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 02:11:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: favorite books
Arsalan asked about ten favorite books. That is too few, but I'll just
let my subconscious dredge up the first titles that come to mind.
1. Baha'u'llah, Kitab-i Iqan
2. Asimov, Foundation trilogy
3. Delaney, Nova
4. Salman Rushdie, Midnight's Children
5. Mohandas Gandhi, My Experiments with Truth & Satyagraha
6. Martin Luther King, "Letter from a Birmingham Jail"
7. Umberto Eco, Name of the Rose
8. Thomas Mann, Magic Mountain
9. Norman Rush, Mating
10. Ellen Schrecker, No Ivory Tower: McCarthyism and the Universities
In fact, it might be worthwhile quoting a bit from the last book:
pp. 6-8:
"By the time the Soviet Union got its bomb and the United States had
"lost" China, it seemed as if Communism was unstoppable . . .
The Republican Right offered an explanation. America had been betrayed
by a worldwide Communist conspiracy. Stalin's agents had penetrated the
Democratic administration and subverted the nation's foreign policy . . .
after Truman's surprise victory in the 1948 presidential election
revealed that the Democrats were relatively invulnerable with regard to
traditional domestic issues . . . the Republican Party, looking for a way
to recoup its electoral fortunes, began to attack the Truman
administration as "soft" on Communism. By claiming that the Democrats
had condoned Soviet subversion, the conservatives in the GOP could mount
an assault on the New Deal . . .
Legislative investigations gave the conservatives a perfect arena
for their campaign against the New Deal and its supposed sympathy for
Communist subversion. To begin with, as congressmen constitutionally
immune from lawsuits, they could make accusations without having to worry
about being sued for libel. In addition, since legislative
investigations were not judicial proceedings, these politicians could use
witnesses whose testimony did not have to stand up in court. Best of
all, committee hearings created headlines . . .
Senator Joseph McCarthy began to flaunt his ever-changing lists
of alleged Communists in the American government. In charging that the
Truman administration was harboring some 57--later 205, 81, 10 or 116
Communist agents within the State Department, the junior senator from
Wisconsin was only doing, albeit more flamboyantly, what many other
reactionary politicians had done before . . . Because he was so uniquely
pathological, it is easy to forget how much McCarthy resembled the other
right-wing politicians who also used the issue of Communism as a way to
further their own fortunes and those of their party . . .
And, by the late forties and early fifties, the Truman
administration, the Supreme Court, and most private citizens believed or
claimed to believe that Communism was so alien to the American way of
life that its adherents did not deserve to be protected by the
Constitution . . .
Moreover, once the political establishment legitimated the denial
of civil rights to members of the Communist Party, it was relatively easy
for the more reactionary practitioners of anti-Communism to extend that
denial to yet other types of political undesirables by claiming that
those people also served the Party's cause . . .
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 03:45:59 -0600 (CST)
From: John Bromberek
Subject: Re: From Birkland 1/26
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Friends,
I don't think we necessarily need, yet, to start pulling out our hair,
running to and fro and crying the "sky is falling, the sky is falling".
If this Covenant Breaker associate were posting to Talisman (rather than
sending ludicrous notes by forwarding them through an anonymous address--
making the "source" obvious), presumably someone would have identified
them as such by now so that we would be properly warned as to whom we
should ignore.
As to our level of discourse, and it's repetition and use, outside
these hallowed circles, against the Faith by those of ill fame: I think
there is an opportunity, here, for us to clean up our act a bit.
Like most of us, I've been on Talisman for about a year, now, and I
would estimate that anywhere from 75-90% of the traffic, varying from
week to week, is either entirely irrelevant or, actually, counter to the
purpose of the list. It could be taken off-line. I'm not saying that
the occasional humorous postings that try to take the edge off some
situations aren't welcome, I think they are (unfortunately, not all of us
who attempt this are gifted with the ability to carry it off).
I, personally, see no need for any public rancor or self-defensiveness
on any list. It seems to me that if we have a different opinion from
someone else we should state it. If we see a glaring mistake in what
someone has said, it would make more sense to me to inform the individual
privately so that they can make any necessary corrections themselves.
Should these two people be unable to agree upon whether an opinion or
"fact" is correct, then one can always, later, enlighten the list members
as to one's own feelings on the matter. But all this unseemly public
defensiveness, back and forth, appears to me to serve no useful purpose.
When we are speaking with one another face to face we all know that
what we have said has been heard by everyone present, and we usually take
the hint when the discussion decisively departs from our own personal
opinions. In an e-mail forum it is easy to believe that people just
haven't read what we had to say, or haven't understood it, and, so, we
tend to repeat the same things over and over.
I think that our assumption should generally be that everyone read
what we wrote, and, if the subject has been dropped or moved away from
our ideas, we should let it rest. There is, I believe, rarely any need
for a person to publicly defend anything they have stated.
If any defense is needed, or desired, I think that it is more proper
for it to come from another of the honored members. If we find ourselves
spending all our time trying to defend a certain point of view, then
we should probably take the hint and observe silence. Even if the point
is correct, this may just not be the proper time or audience to accept or
comprehend it.
It just strikes me as unseemly that a person defend their own
statements in a public discussion. It may sometimes be necessary for us
to clarify what we have said, or even correct it, but to merely repeat
it over and over is rather undignified. No lives are at stake if we
don't win every argument (excuse me, that should read "discussion").
But, I've exhausted myself again, so I'll go back to lurking.
Bye for now,
John Bromberek
Fayetteville, Arkansas
johnb@intellinet.com
=END=
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 11:37:13 +0000 (GMT)
From: Robert Parry
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: sos062@bangor.ac.uk
Subject: 10 favourites
as someone here said 10 is too little but here`s my few british pence:
journals of kierkegaard -- these have an unbelievable texture. words
become events!
the heart sutra -- a short prajnaparamita (perfection of wisdom -- mahayana)
text. this has one of the most glorious endings i have ever read (grace-filled!)
chuang tzu -- direct, pithy deadly serious observations by the taoist sage!
thinking faith -- fritz buri. underrated 20th c.swiss protestant
theologion. a conceptual iconoclast. i`ve long been meaning to read his
works more closely as a `a/theo-logical model` for a bahai-buddhist-taoist
discussion.
method in theology -- bernard lonergan. beautifully written theology. a
jesuit well versed in natural science and maths. he attempts to map out
an invarient structure to human conciousness and then relates this to the
discipline of theology.
philosophy (3 vols.) -- karl jaspers. a systematic homage to transcendence
without a direct appeal to the hisorical religions. closely searches
human experience for those areas which point to transcendence and openness.
ee cummings -- poems which are sometimes physically difficult to read but
well worth it!
trilby -- george du maurier. read this years ago and loved it! svengali
had to let go!!
the diary of a nobody -- george and weedon grossmith. english
middle-class buffonery at its best!
foucault`s pendulum -- umberto eco. there are no metanarratives -- are
there??
the goon show scripts -- spike milligan et al. -- there are no words to
describe the humour only sounds!?! might not travel too well!
robert parry
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 96 19:45:46 PST
Subject: RE: FWD>favorite books
To: talisman@indiana.edu, Dan Orey
On 26 Jan 96 15:44:21 U Dan Orey wrote:
>
>1. The Magic Mountain, Thomas Mann - you only read this once, I did
twice, but
>I was working with Helen Bishop at the time, and well...
>
I read it and loved it. I also loved the Joseph Quartet. Wonderful
vision of Judaism and the Patriarchs.
Who is Helen Bishop?
>
>8. 100 Years of Solitude, Gabriel Garcia Marquez - introduced me to
magical
>realism
>
I forgot about this one. Wow! I also read Love in a Time of Cholera
and it was wonderful too.
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/26/96
Time: 19:45:47
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 07:32:31 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: From Birkland 1/26
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "John Bromberek" , "Talisman"
> I think they are (unfortunately, not all of us
>who attempt this are gifted with the ability to carry it off).
"Carrying what?" sniffed the Prince, "My Kingdom for a horse!"
signed a friend of the prince
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 96 06:24:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: opposition to the Faith
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
My son has a piano exam at 9 a.m. so this note will be short.
I've been enjoying reading people's list of ten favorite books
and when Arsalan privately wrote me for my list, I replied that
as soon as I've read 10 books in my life, I'll be sure to let him
know. I think he's got a long wait coming ...
However in reading Juan's list, I was struck by the quotation
from Ellen Schrecker's "No Ivory Tower: McCarthyism and the
Universities". I somewhat felt this passage which illustrated
intolerance towards communism in this country was meant to draw a
parallel between McCarthyism and the Faith's attitude towards
Covenant-breakers. If this is an incorrect inference, then
nevermind .... But if others read it the same, then I disagree.
The Baha'i Faith has had its enemies from both within and outside
the community and will continue to do so. Unfortunately, we've
also been told repeatedly that as we grow in size and prestige so
will the number and force of our enemies. Covenant-breakers are
only a very small (and increasingly more insignificant) element
within this larger growing body of our enemies.
Our position towards Covenant-breakers and their associates is
very clear: they are to be avoided totally and completely. As
this position stems from Abdu'l-Baha's Will and Testament, in my
view, it is not amendable to alteration in some future time by
the House of Justice either and must hold for the entire
Dispensation. Therefore, if it's indeed true that such
characters are on s.r.b. or other Baha'i-related networks, I for
one hope that more active steps are taken to get rid of them.
But I also agree with Juan that there is very little that we can
do to limit their access to our conversations or misuse thereof.
As Dariush Lamie correctly pointed out a few days ago, the much
larger and far more important issue is the opposition which the
Faith will attract from various sources including religious
groups -- the opposition which in the words of the beloved
Guardian will become world-encircling in the future.
Obviously the first step to understand this issue is to examine
our Sacred Text and the writings of Shoghi Effendi for
explanations.
I suggest this as a project for Talisman. Let us use REFER or
other sources available to us and pull together all the passages
which speak to future opposition that the Cause must endure.
Those of us with access to the Writings in the original language
will do the same by translating appropriate passages (such as the
Guardian's Ridvan 113 letter to the Eastern friends, or
Abdu'l-Baha's Lawh-i Khurasan, etc.)
I believe this could be an important deepening for us all, and I
look forward to seeing postings on this subject. Please post
passages as you find them and later perhaps Eric or another
skilled soul can compile them into a larger compilation.
(Incidentally, there might already be compilations on this
subject, so if you have any, please do passages from it.)
Of course global opposition to the Faith is nothing compared to
the pain of 2 hours listening to bunch of kids banging on piano.
Joyous of parenthood....
much love, ahang.
=END=
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 10:19:06 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: List Rules
The list rules and customs are posted periodically for the benefit of
new members and for the exhortation of the old. I would appreciate
everybody meditating on them this morning.
John Walbridge
******
TALISMAN is an unmoderated forum for discussion of issues
related to the Babi and Baha'i Faiths: history, theology, social issues,
etc.
Content can include discussion of relevant issues, queries,
announcements,
advertisements of books of interest to the members, etc. The list owner
is
John Walbridge, Associate Professor of Near Eastern Languages and of
Philosophy, Indiana University, Bloomington.
1. The service is provided through the University Computer Center of
Indiana University. Participants are reminded that this service is paid
for
by the taxpayers of the state of Indiana, that the fundamental purpose of
this list is scholarly, and that discussion should thus be conducted on
the
basis of evidence and rational argument. The list is open to anyone
approved by the list owner.
2. The list is actually an automatic forwarding device. The list owner
does
not moderate content, nor does he wish to do so. Participants are free
to
argue for whatever views they wish, provided they do so courteously and
on the basis of evidence and sound reasoning.
3. Any mail addressed to the list--TALISMAN@INDIANA.EDU--will be
automatically forwarded as e-mail to all members of the list.
4. Participants are reminded that they are on the list as guests of the
list
owner. Violations of decorum will be punished by being dropped from the
list. This sanction is solely at the discretion of the list owner and is
not
subject to appeal.
5. The list owner being a Midwesterner of philosophic temperament,
participants are requested to refrain from abusive language, discourtesy,
ad
hominem arguments, accusations of heresy, and other forms of fallacious
argumentation. On the other hand, this is an argumentative list, and
members should be willing to defend their expressed opinions against
spirited attack without taking it personally.
6. Please remember that all postings go out to all members. Sophomoric,
overly long, irrelevant, and badly thought out postings waste everybody's
time and someone's money.
7. Please refrain from unnecessarily including the text of the message
you
are replying to or passages therefrom in your postings. These clutter up
the system and are a needless expense for those who personally pay for
connect time.
8. No archive of messages is available, nor is there a list of participants.
9. To subscribe or unsubscribe, send a message to
MAJORDOMO@INDIANA.EDU.
Subj.: none
The body should contain only the command:
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or:
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10. To contact the listowner privately, e-mail to jwalbrid@indiana.edu.
11. A custom has developed on this list--based, it seems, on Maori
etiquette--that new participants should introduce themselves at some
point with a brief biography.
=END=
From: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 96 10:51:29 -0600 (CST)
Subject: READ FICTION OR DIE!
To: talisman@indiana.edu
The reason I didn't include any fiction in my list is that I read very
little fiction and I thought people would be more interested in what books
have most influenced my thought. I also freely admit to reading fiction for
pure escapist entertainment. Here is a list of my favorite books of
fiction. Note that it is also represents all the fiction that I have read
in the last 15 years.
1. The Dune Series, Frank Herbert
2. Jurassic Park, Michael Crichton (a good sci-fi read, but also a good
introduction to chaos theory)
3. Sphere, M. Crichton
4. Inspector Morse murder mysteries, Colin Dexter
5. Judge Dee murder mysteries, Robert Van Gulick (modern rewrites of
7th-8th century Chinese short stories. They are an interesting glimpse into
Chinese life of that period (see for instance: The Emperor's Pearl, The
Chinese Gold Murders)
6. Alistair MacLean novels
7. The Jungle, Upton Sinclair
8. The Prophet, Kalil Gibran
72>Argh! Doesn't anyone except Sandy read fiction? I think I'll develop
72>thesis around the theme that those who read tomes of non-fiction as the
72>steady intellectual diet consequently refuse beauty and truth in favor
72>argumentation and fact... -just kidding. (or maybe not) Then again, pe
72>we now have a clue as to why Talisman gets a tad testy at times...
Warmest greetings, Dann May, Philosophy, OK City Univ.
---
* WR 1.32 # 669 * Learning is a kind of natural food for the mind. Cicero
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Continental Counselors
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 10:15:21 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Talismanians,
It surprised me to see some of the folks on this list disagreeing,
or at least questioning, the guidance of the Counselor. Isn't it true
that the Continental Boards of Counselors have a higher rank than the
National Spiritual Assemblies? While they are not "the rulers," do we
imagine that a Counselor would post something of this nature unless he
felt that it was in accordance with the wishes of the Universal House of
Justice? And what would give us the right to openly differ, on a public
email list, with a member of the Continental Board of Counselors? Should
not such disagreements be conveyed privately to the Counselor or to the
Universal House of Justice itself? Do we think that the Baha'i Faith is
so egalitarian that a statement made by a Counselor is no different than
if it had been said by you or I?
To the Light,
Mark (Foster)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion * Full-Time College Faculty *
*Past (1995) Pres., Kansas Sociological Society * Owner, Baha'i Studies List *
*Director, The Reality Science Institute * Co-Moderator, Another Baha'i List *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Staff, 3 CompuServe Religion Fora, incl. Baha'i Section Leader (72642,3105) *
*Chief Baha'i Chat Host, America Online (TFPMark) * mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us *
*Sysop, Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1) * mfoster@tyrell.net *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The Prophets of God have been the Servants of Reality; Their
Teachings constitute the science of reality." - `Abdu'l-Baha
"The sciences of today are bridges to reality; if then they lead not
to reality, naught remains but fruitless illusion." - `Abdu'l-Baha
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
From: Rick Schaut
To: Ahang Rabbani ,
"talisman@indiana.edu"
Subject: RE: opposition to the Faith
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 08:34:18 -0800
Dear Ahang and Friends,
| From: Ahang Rabbani
| However in reading Juan's list, I was struck by the quotation
| from Ellen Schrecker's "No Ivory Tower: McCarthyism and the
| Universities". I somewhat felt this passage which illustrated
| intolerance towards communism in this country was meant to draw a
| parallel between McCarthyism and the Faith's attitude towards
| Covenant-breakers.
Juan's quote struck me more as a reference to the present
review policy. Juan, perhaps you need to clarify?
| As Dariush Lamie correctly pointed out a few days ago, the much
| larger and far more important issue is the opposition which the
| Faith will attract from various sources including religious
| groups -- the opposition which in the words of the beloved
| Guardian will become world-encircling in the future.
|
| Obviously the first step to understand this issue is to examine
| our Sacred Text and the writings of Shoghi Effendi for
| explanations.
|
| I suggest this as a project for Talisman.
While this is a splendid idea, I don't think there's
much to be gained from a very deep analysis of the
issue of opposition. From Shoghi Effendi:
November 27, 1934 Persecution of the Baha'is in Iran
The persecutions from which the Persian friends are now suffering
represent, indeed, the culmination in the long and nation-wide campaign
which the authorities in that country have during the last two years
launched against the Faith. In many of its aspects this campaign is
reminiscent of the persecutions suffered by the early Babis,...
In the meantime, the Guardian would urge all the friends to
patiently and prayerfully wait until these sad happenings take their due
course. For the history of the Cause, particularly in Persia, is a clear
illustration of the truth that such persecutions invariably serve to
strengthen the believers in their faith, by stimulating the spiritual
powers latent in their hearts, and by awakening in them a new and deeper
consciousness of their duties and responsibilities towards the Faith.
Indeed, the mere progress of the Cause, by provoking the hatreds and
jealousies of peoples and nations, creates for itself such difficulties
and obstacles as only its divine spirit can overcome. Abdu'l-Baha has
emphatically stated that the enmity and opposition of the world will
increase in direct proportion to the extension and progress of the Faith.
The greater the zeal of the believers and the more striking the effect of
their achievements, the fiercer will be the opposition of the enemy.
Many are the passages in the Writings of Baha'u'llah wherein He
foreshadows the persecutions awaiting His Faith. But side by side with
such emphatic predictions is the assurance that out of these sufferings
and trials His Cause will emerge triumphant and purified. May we not,
therefore, gather strength from such an assurance, and with hearts
filled with confident and joyous hope arise to fulfil our part in the
establishment of His Cause?
(Shoghi Effendi: Dawn of a New Day, pages 51-52)
We can diffuse our energies with too great an emphasis on
attempts to outline the kinds of attacks that will be directed
against the Faith. We have been fully assured that this
opposition will not prevail, and that the "hosts of the supreme
concourse" stand ready to assist us at every turn. We need only
note that these protections are available to anyone who arises
to advance the Cause.
Warmest Regards,
Rick Schaut
=END=
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 12:01:54 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Continental Counselors
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Mark Foster" , "Talisman"
Dear Mark,
I can only speak for myself and say that I was in no way differing with
the Institutions. Let us, however, make a distinction between the
courteous offering of an alternate view--not offered as even correct--but
simply offered in the spirit of consultation. If you feel that this can
never be done--I would accept that.
As Baha'is sometimes we may be pushing the envelope, so to speak, as we
try to grow in God's word. We are trying and failing to come into our
maturity. We are so often wrong. I can only say that we are embarking
upon a world that defies our imaginations so far, and, as the Guardian so
aptly put it, in, "The Promised Day Has Come" "It is the creative
energies which His Revelation has released in the 'year sixty', and later
reinforced by the successive effusions of celestial power vouchsafed in
the 'year nine' and the 'year eighty' to all mankind, that have
instilled into humanity the capacity to attain the final stage in its
organic and collective evolution." (PDHC "The Great Age to Come" p.122)
So Maybe we need a chance to investigate the good of the "old world" to
properly form our perceptions. I really can't say. All I know is I
deeply love Baha'u'llah and I trust Him and all His institutions and am
ready to serve them in any way they see fit. I also trust my fellow
Baha'is because of this love--I don't know how to do otherwise.
If you can enlighten me further on this I'm eager to learn. I know I'm
viewed as Mr. Pollyanna. I go into the world unarmed and trust that I
will come out unharmed--I know this is naive but I don't know any other
way. I just have to learn to live with the consequences.
The time has come, IMHO, to break free from the laxity of discourse and
mirror in our personal lives those things that Baha'u'llah has taught us,
and the Master exemplified.
Your humble servant
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 13:30:50 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Who is Helen Bishop?
She was an incredible woman and a very dear friend. I miss her.
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 12:26:27 -0600 (CST)
From: Robert Lee Green
To: "talisman@indiana.edu"
Subject: Re: Books: A big Favor
1. God and His Messengers (book for children)
2. Songs for Bahai Children
3. Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. Pirsig
4. The Flame, (Lua Getsinger???)
5. God loves laughter, William Sears
6. Illusions; tales of a reluctant messiah, Richard Bach
7. Everything translated in to English by Baha'u'llah
8. The Celestine Prophecy, James Redfield
9. Incarnations of Immortality, Piers Anthony
10. Rhetoric, Aristotle
Really thought this list was hard to compose, but after three different
people asked for it, in three different venues, in three different weeks
felt I had to respond. And even now, I would feel better if my list
were considered favorite Authors, not just books. :-)
------------------------------------------------
| "O SON OF SPIRIT! |
Robert Green | My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, |
rlg0001 | kindly and radiant heart, that thine may |
@jove.acs.unt.edu | be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable |
| and everlasting." - Baha'u'llah |
------------------------------------------------
=END=
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 96 13:18:55 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: various comments
To: talisman@indiana.edu
First, may I say - please - once again, that the comment about Abdu'l Baha
wasnot referring to his general state of mind. It referred to a particular
piece of information. Did Abdu'l Baha ever go around referring to himself
as "omniscient." He objected when people looked to him as a prophet or
messenger of God. Surely only God is omniscient. I really object to this
statementbeing used repeatedly to substantiate the accusation that not all the
members of Talisman are adequately faithful to the Covenant.
As for the comment that I only seem to know about two models of government -
geesh! I don't have hours to expand on every idea, you know. Some of you guys
seem to have an awful lot of free time to write at great length.
I am only saying that the models of government with which I am familiar (more
than two) have inherent characteristics that work against promoting and
protecting human rights. Except for democracy. And, while I am being attacked
for not having a background in political science - not surprising since I am
not a political scientist - I don't see anyone else really arguing on the basis
of political science theory either. Again, I see people setting up an image of
a utopian
state without looking at real life models to judge this utopia by.
Jackson, the "urban" situation to which I was referring was a modern one - not
traditional urban life. When I used the word isolated, I did not necessarily
mean pristine tropical islands. Plenty of M.E. villages have been quite
isolated up until recently and some still are. I am saying that the transition
from traditional village or even urban life to modern conditions more than
often brings about enormous changes in family life. My own experience and the
reading I have done points in the direction of the monogamous, nuclear family
being the norm. While many societies may permit polygyny, fewer and fewer
members of those societies - judging from what I know -seem to be practicing
it. I remember travelling around with a Palestinian while in Jordan. He
pointed out a home where a man had three wives. This guy was considered highly
unusual and something of a laughing stock. This same Palestinian had a sister
whose husband had taken a second wife. Sister moved in with brother and his
family. (Oh, Lord, what a disaster that was!) And the situation was much
discussed. It was not taken as something normal. Linda
=END=
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 13:14:58 -0500 (EST)
From: Richard Vernon Hollinger
To: belove@sover.net
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: CB's in the wood pile
Phillip, my dear friend,
I wish you were here in NY (or better yet, I was up in your beautiful
neck of the woods), and we could have a long discussion over a cup of
coffee.
The teachings on the Covenant can appear very paradoxical and can appear
to be in contradiction to other elements of the Faith. We should,
however, remember that the Covenant is essential to the social purpose of
the Faith--creating an ever-widening circle of unified human beings in
this contingent world. This cannot be accomplished by a schismatic
moveent, no matter how noble its teachings or how exemplary its
adherents. Unity, in a heirarchy of Baha'i values, has a higher place
than it does in other faith communities, because it is so central the
very purpose of the community to which we belong.
At a basic level--that is, the level at which schims are avoided--this
unity has been and must be maintained by recognition of the heads of the
Faith. Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha left written wills appointing
successors precisely to avoid a situation where there could be leadership
disputes that led to schism. The origins of schism, historically, have
been in what may have seemed at the time comparatively minor events or
leadership struggles, but they have led to major cultural divides in the
world: Shi'is/Sunnis; Protestants/Catholics, etc. If there had been no
written will giving primacy to `Abdu'l-Baha, power struggles with his
brothers or with others who sought leadership, could well have resulted
in schisms in the Baha'i Faith. This could have sapped the energy of the
Baha'i community, probably impeding it from evolving into the world
religion it is today, and obstructed it from acheving its purpose in the
world.
`Abdu'l-Baha developed a strategy to deal with those who challenged his
leadership, which he instructed Baha'is to continue to follow after his
death. He instructed Baha'is to cut-off social contact with them. As I
have said before on this forum, this has proven to be an absolutely
brilliant strategy, as it has prevented those who would undermine the
leadership of the Faith from having the opportunity to mobilize support
within the Baha'i community.
Now, this is where the teachings on the Covenant begin to seem
paradoxical. It would seem that the net result of excommunicating
Baha'is for challenging the head of the Faith is, in fact, the formation
of sects--schisms. In fact, however, the opposite is true,
because the schismatic movements have been nipped in the bud before they
had a chance to become full-fledge schisms comparable to those in the
other major religions. Most of these groups number less than 100
members, and the largest, I think, claims perhaps a few thousand members who
were never enrolled in the Baha'i Faith and who probably have, in fact, a very
tenous relationship to that group. Groups like this will never be a
challenge to the unity of the world-wide community to which we belong,
as long as they are not allowed to propagate their message within our ranks.
I am confident that 500 years from now people will not view these groups
as having been significant, because they will not have led to anything.
And they will not have become significant movements because of the
strategy of "shunning" developed by `Abdu'l-Baha.
What I am trying to say is that Covenant-breaking can seem like a
little thing, from the perspective of contemporary society, and therefore
shunning seems like an authoritarian over-reaction. But Covnenat-breaking
is a phenomon that could, if tolerated, obstruct the very purpose of
the Faith. From this perspective--one might view this as analgous to the
measures taken under marshall law--it is justified, and it is certainly
milder the methods of dealing with leadership challenges in past
dispensations.
On the other hand--and I have said this before too--the teachings on the
Covenant should not be used to constrain the discourse within the Baha'i
community on matters that are "non-Covenantal." That, in my opinion, is a
misapplication of the teaching.
Richard
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 96 09:25:29 PST
Subject: Re: sex and values
To: talisman@indiana.edu, "Mark A. Foster"
Mark, thanks for your thoughts. My responses:
On Fri, 26 Jan 1996 19:15:44 -0600 (CST) Mark A. Foster wrote:
>To: talisman@indiana.edu
>
>
>B >How can a behavior be ethical yet morally wrong?
Mark:
the ethical (normative) standards which reflect the
>collective conscience of a moral community (such as a church, a
Baha'i
>community, an 'umma, or a scientific community) are relative of
current
>understandings of the dynamically unfolding Revelation of reality.
So, it sounds like you are setting up a premise which will allow you
to say that ethical standards are tied to specific times, places, and
cultures and moral standards are higher.
IOW,
the ethical prescriptions of the Prophet and
>His chosen ones must be adapted to the evolving condition of
humanity.
... and then you say it, making it sound like ethics are a kind of
applied morals. Am I understanding this correctly?
>And that is the function of the Universal House of Justice.
>
> I do not need to worry what is or is not ethical in an absolute
way.
>That is *altruism* (rational-based opinions of what is good). IMHO,
>except in a very restricted sense, there are, from our own relative
>human perspectives, no absolutes. My primary concern is to apply the
>spiritual teachings and ordinances to my own life, and leave the
affairs
>of others in the hands of God.
Hard to follow this: Sounds like you are saying I should mind my own
small businesses and let the UHJ look after the larger community.
That can't be what you mean. Or is it?
Also sounds like one reason for minding my own business only -- and
that excludes the community -- is that I can only used my rational
facilities (thinking and feeling) and those aren't adequate. Is that
right? Do you mean that?
There is only one universal Reality. He
>manifests and emanates Himself according to His own Will. I can
trust in
>Him to be fair, just, and merciful with all His servants.
>
> To me, that is the essence of morality, or ethics, i.e.,
Now I'm completely lost because I was trying to develop a distinction
between morals and ethics and you seemed to be parsing it out
differently than I was and now your collapsed the distinction.
to see from
>a universal viewpoint of the Revelation, to serve humanity, and,
without
>judging anyone, to pray that others may see and do likewise.
>
>
>
>To the Light,
>
>Mark (Foster)
>
Mark, I'm sorry. I can't follow this.
>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
* * * * *
>*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion * Full-Time College
Faculty *
>*Past (1995) Pres., Kansas Sociological Society * Owner, Baha'i
Studies List *
>*Director, The Reality Science Institute * Co-Moderator, Another
Baha'i List *
>*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of
Reality *
>*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films
Production) *
>*Staff, 3 CompuServe Religion Fora, incl. Baha'i Section Leader
(72642,3105) *
>*Chief Baha'i Chat Host, America Online (TFPMark) *
mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us *
>*Sysop, Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1) * mfoster@tyrell.net *
>* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> "The Prophets of God have been the Servants of Reality; Their
> Teachings constitute the science of reality." - `Abdu'l-Baha
> "The sciences of today are bridges to reality; if then they lead not
> to reality, naught remains but fruitless illusion." - `Abdu'l-Baha
>
>___
>* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's
diversity
>
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/27/96
Time: 09:25:30
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A. Einstein
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Continental Counselors
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 12:43:16 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Richard -
Thanks for your kind note. I had a feeling that my post would lead
some folks to question me me about it . I wasn't referring to you, or
to any particular person. I did try to be careful not to make my remarks
in any way which would appear that I was criticizing any of the beloved
participants on this list. However, I do think that Americans, and
perhaps others as well, sometimes confuse the Baha'i standard with
American notions of freedom of expression.
IMHO, there is a difference between openly, publicly differing with
me verses differing with a Counselor. What I say carries no weight. That
is not true of the Counselor. To me, it is not a question of loyalty to
any human being. It is a unity-of-the-Cause issue. There is nothing
wrong with disagreeing, but there is a proper way of doing it. IMHO,
posting one's differences on a public email list is inappropriate and
may be used against us.
For example, in the military, you may not agree with, or like, what
your CO tells you to do. However, when it comes to direct orders, you
listen to, and obey, her or to him because of what she or he represents
- a particular branch of the armed services. It has nothing to do with
whether you like, or dislike, that person. That is irrelevant. The
purpose of such obedience is the unity of the armed forces to conduct
military operations.
Recently, there were some differences of opinion when one of the
beloved posted a message which referred to the rulers as generals.
Obviously, that term goes against the American egalitarian spirit.
However, the military model works - and it has nothing to do with the
individual serving on an Assembly. It is in their function as members
of a consultative body. We tend, I think, to get too bogged down
focusing on individuals.
To the Light,
Mark (Foster)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion * Full-Time College Faculty *
*Past (1995) Pres., Kansas Sociological Society * Owner, Baha'i Studies List *
*Director, The Reality Science Institute * Co-Moderator, Another Baha'i List *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Staff, 3 CompuServe Religion Fora, incl. Baha'i Section Leader (72642,3105) *
*Chief Baha'i Chat Host, America Online (TFPMark) * mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us *
*Sysop, Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1) * mfoster@tyrell.net *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The Prophets of God have been the Servants of Reality; Their
Teachings constitute the science of reality." - `Abdu'l-Baha
"The sciences of today are bridges to reality; if then they lead not
to reality, naught remains but fruitless illusion." - `Abdu'l-Baha
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 96 11:13:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
Message-Id: <05352172106991/43983@BMOA>
To: "mfoster@tyrell.net" <"mfoster@tyrell.net"@esds01.mrgate.bmoa.umc.dupont.
com>, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Continental Counselors
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Dear Mark,
In your above titled posting you raised some excellent issues,
and I like to have a go at a response to them:
> It surprised me to see some of the folks on this list
> disagreeing, or at least questioning, the guidance of the
> Counselor.
If you are referring to my posting, I did not disagree with
Counselor Birkland on cautioning about the presence of associate
of CB on this list. In fact, very clearly I stated that I share
the same concerns and sentiments. I did ask him some questions
though, but after all even Baha'u'llah has permitted questions to
be asked of Him. Do you have a Tablet that says questions may
not be put to Counselors though? ;-}
> Isn't it true that the Continental Boards of Counselors have a
> higher rank than the National Spiritual Assemblies?
Yes. Just look at the bottom of any letter from the World
Centre. You see the order which various bodies are listed as
part of "cc". Typically, its the International Teaching Centre
first, then any individual Hand, then the CBC, then NSA(s), then
any individual Counselor, then ABMs, etc. The protocol governing
that, is a manifestation of various ranks.
> While they are not "the rulers," do we imagine that a Counselor
> would post something of this nature unless he felt that it was
> in accordance with the wishes of the Universal House of
> Justice?
In fact that was one of the questions that I very respectfully
asked the Counselor. You see, Mark, you're jumping to conclusion
here. You have assumed that since an email came from Steven
Birkland it means a communication was received from a member of
Continental Board of Counselors. He did not sign his post as a
member of that august body, and I make no such assumptions about
it. He is a man, like you and I, entitled to his thoughts
*outside* and *separate* from the awesome office that he
discharges.
If we all go to Burger King and Mr. Birkland orders Big Fries,
does it mean the Continental Board or the World Centre wish from
now on for the faithful to eat Big Fries? No, it means he likes
Big Fries and its OK for you and I to order onion rings. He is
entitled to his thoughts and actions outside of the office of
Counselorship.
> And what would give us the right to openly differ, on a public
> email list, with a member of the Continental Board of
> Counselors? Should not such disagreements be conveyed privately
> to the Counselor or to the Universal House of Justice itself?
And this question is where the rubber meets the road.
Are you talking about Juan's or my comments? Would you clarify?
Meanwhile, I'm going to assume you have my posting in mind and as
such I like to respond.
Counselor (or Mr., we don't know which yet) Birkland did not
convey his displeasure with certain of postings in a private
communication; it was an open posting. In this posting Talisman
(Mark Foster included) was accused as saying things which
undermine and challenge the Covenant. So, I must ask, have you,
Mark Foster, been saying things that undermine and challenge the
Covenant? Are you a proto-Covenant-breaker? Have I been
challenging the Covenant? Have I been breaking the Covenant? If
neither one of us, then who?
And the reason that I raised this question publicly with Mr. (or
Counselor) Birkland is because at the present all of us on
Talisman (again, including Mark Foster) are under suspicion. I
think its right to ask for clarification. What comments have
been so upsetting to him (or to the senior Institutions)?
I believe I have the right to respectfully ask for clarification.
Its one thing if Mr. Birkland is not pleased with a certain
comments, but its a whole different thing if *Counselor* Birkland
is concerned about violations of Covenant.
> Do we think that the Baha'i Faith is so egalitarian that a
> statement made by a Counselor is no different than if it had
> been said by you or I?
I think there is a world of difference between a statement made
by a Counselor than you and I. Let me give you an example.
From time to time, unfortunately, we see people writing and saying:
"Because you said X, you're a Covenant-breaker." Most of these
comments either are ignored, or the person at the receiving end
writes back and says: No, you're a Covenant-breaker, or you're a
pinhead, or you mama is ugly or some other nice, Baha'i-like
comment like this ;-} Anyway, its all part of daily war zone of
Talisman.
But, things are a whole order of magnitude different when it come
from someone who is a member of a senior Institution -- especially
when its addressed to the entire group. Now one can't ignore it
because everyone's administrative rights is potentially in
jeopardy, nor can one write back with some equal measure of
name-calling. Therefore, one is left with a single choice, namely,
to respectfully ask for clarification. And that's exactly what I
did.
As far as your suggestion about writing to the Universal House of
Justice is concerned, let us hope that we can resolve the entire
issue here in our own corner of universe as those dear folks have
the care and worry of the entire world on their shoulders. Let's
not bother them -- at least not as yet.
With best wishes, ahang.
=END=
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 96 11:28 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Megha Shyam
Subject: Re; Helen Bishop
Hello:
I'm glad that Jim invoked the neame of Helen Bishop. For some of
you who may not know of her, here is a very brief bio:
Helen come from a family for four sisters born to a mexican mother
and an american father. She showed great abilities from the time
she was a young girl, went to Reed College in Portland, Oregon.
Helen marries Charles Bishop (the Bishop family in Hawaii). The
Bishops having been endowed with wealth never had to work for
a living giving Helen and Charles a lot of time to devote themselves to
the Faith. They worked in France and Geneva at the request of Shoghi
Effendi, and lived in several places around the world. Finally returning
to Portland in the 60's when Charles passed away. Helen stayed in
Portland until she passed away a few years ago.
What was Helen like? She was an insomniac, liked to give firesides
late into the evenings over lots of tea. She had incredible memory of
the writings and could quote extensively from the Writings long and
very long passages. Her active mind was very inquisitive and challenged
you all the time. She is sorely missed.
Her estate became the vehicle for the purchase of the Baha'i Center in
Portland a few years ago.
Megha Shyam
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Re: sex and values
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 13:59:19 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Hi, Philip -
You wrote:
B >So, it sounds like you are setting up a premise which will allow you
B >to say that ethical standards are tied to specific times, places, and
B >cultures and moral standards are higher.
Yes. I think that ethics are relative to particular historical
periods and societal structures. The Prophets of God modify ethical
applications in each age, and the Universal House of Justice can also
produce different legislation for specific regions of the world (or even
for areas within a single society). The essential spiritual principles
do not change, really, but how they are applied results in a variety of
ethical prescriptions.
B >... and then you say it, making it sound like ethics are a kind of
B >applied morals. Am I understanding this correctly?
As I see it, morality and ethics are roughly the same. Morality
refers, according to Durkheim, to the collective conscience, the *facts*
of society, or to social norms (rules of conduct) and values (cultural
standards which give rise to norms). Social norms are both integrative
and regulatory in nature. From a value conflict perspective, which I
accept to some extent, norms and values are often imposed by those in
power. IOW, it is impossible to separate a society's culture (total way
of life) from its system of social stratification (institutionalized
inequality).
In the future, I think, while social differentiation (such as class
differences) will remain, social stratification, a condition in which
life chances are a result of socially ascribed characteristics (such as
race, ethnicity, gender, and caste), will gradually be done away with.
B >Hard to follow this: Sounds like you are saying I should mind my own
B >small businesses and let the UHJ look after the larger community.
B >That can't be what you mean. Or is it?
Not at all. I am saying that altruism refers to rationally-based
"good" deeds. Jesus taught us to love our neighbors as ourselves. Now,
we can overcome such time-space limitations and extend our love to
humanity as a whole. Does that make more sense? IOW, from my POV,
standards of morality evolve with progressive Revelation. They become
more encompassing. In each age, they take in greater amounts of
diversity within ever-larger circles of unity.
B >Also sounds like one reason for minding my own business only -- and
B >that excludes the community -- is that I can only used my rational
B >facilities (thinking and feeling) and those aren't adequate. Is that
B >right? Do you mean that?
The rational faculties are wonderful. They are what distinguishes us
from the animals. However, IMHO, we can now rise to an even higher level
in the awareness of at-one-ment - universal love. But the intellect must
be used to help us reach that state of (cosmic) consciousness. It isn't
an issue of one versus the other. Each level builds on the ones "below"
it.
B >Now I'm completely lost because I was trying to develop a distinction
B >between morals and ethics and you seemed to be parsing it out
B >differently than I was and now your collapsed the distinction.
I am not sure that there is such a distinction. However, it may be
that we are defining those words differently. Perhaps moral theology
might use these terms in some other way. But from where I sit , they
are essentially the same. OTOH, I might, in a sense, contrast morality
from Truth - which is the universal reality of the Word of God. However,
that Truth (the Logos), as one of the conditions wrapped up within the
Prophet's station of Manifestation, only gradually moves, as each new
Dispensation follows the preceding one, from the Kingdom of Concealment
to the Kingdom of Revelation.
I hope that was a bit clearer.
To the Light,
Mark (Foster)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion * Full-Time College Faculty *
*Past (1995) Pres., Kansas Sociological Society * Owner, Baha'i Studies List *
*Director, The Reality Science Institute * Co-Moderator, Another Baha'i List *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Staff, 3 CompuServe Religion Fora, incl. Baha'i Section Leader (72642,3105) *
*Chief Baha'i Chat Host, America Online (TFPMark) * mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us *
*Sysop, Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1) * mfoster@tyrell.net *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The Prophets of God have been the Servants of Reality; Their
Teachings constitute the science of reality." - `Abdu'l-Baha
"The sciences of today are bridges to reality; if then they lead not
to reality, naught remains but fruitless illusion." - `Abdu'l-Baha
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: 27 Jan 96 12:55:24 U
From: "Dan Orey"
Subject: Re: Re- From Birkland 1/26
To: talisman@indiana.edu, tan1@cornell.edu
Reply to: RE>Re: From Birkland 1/26
Sorry Tim, I think Juan is right, we have talked alot about many things coming
down from the _Head Shed_ , but I do not remember anyone saying the covenant is
to be invalidated, if so we'd run them off. - Daniel
=END=
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 12:35:53 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: shastri@best.com (Shastri Purushotma)
Subject: Adjectives for Covenant-Breakers
Some adjectives used to describe Covenant Breakers and
enemies of the Faith:
=================================================================
"... that lowbred, consummate scoundrel, Haji Mirza Aqasi "
(The Promised Day is Come, pages 66- 67)
" Irremediably corrupted through his constant association with Siyyid
Muhammad, that living embodiment of wickedness, cupidity
and deceit "
(God Passes By, pages 164- 165)
".. Wherefore, then, do not
these grovelling, worm-like men pause to meditate
upon these traditions, all of which are manifest
as the sun in its noon-tide glory? "
(Kitab-i-Iqan, page 247)
"... The black-hearted scoundrel who befooled and manipulated
this vain and flaccid man with consummate skill and unyielding
persistence was a certain Siyyid Muhammad, a native of Isfahan,
notorious for his inordinate ambition, his blind obstinacy and uncontrollable
jealousy. "
(God Passes By, pages 112- 113)
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 15:13:51 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Natural Law & Natural Rights
There is little doubt that Western democracies are by far better providers
of human rights than Communist regimes or dictatorships. And I don't think
anyone here was ever debating that issue.
Nor is there any doubt that the Central Figures, when comparing the
relative freedoms and rights enjoyed by the people of the West would lay
stress on them in Their Writings of the (at the time) current political and
social conditions of West Asia. No one is arguing that point either.
And there is no fuss with the basic concept of human rights as enunciated
in the Declaration of Independence or the United Nations Declaration on Human
Rights. I don't recall anyone arguing against these.
So what has the fuss and fury been over? Well it would seem that it
originates with the assumptions that somehow, _intrinsically_ the Faith is
lacking in certain crucial foundational planks - specifically in the area of
human rights and due process - and that not only must this be dealt with now,
but that this is possibly the central reason the growth of the Faith is nill
in America.
That there is a serious lack a maturity in the national Baha'i community,
which of course greatly effects the functioning of the Administrative Order,
there is little doubt. But this is not the same as assuming that there are
flaws in the architecture of the Cause itself, or that the Cause is not
immature but rather incomplete in a fundamental sense.
The assumption then has been (if the Faith is indeed *incomplete*) that it
needs to *borrow* from the Old World Order. The human rights *abuses*
suffered within the Faith here in America are the result then of
incorporation of diseased political ideology - and depending on who is
posting this it is either described as *religious-rightism*, absolutism,
dictatorship, tyrannicalness, or fascism. So then essentially the disease is
cured by introducing other political ideologies. Only these are dressed up
and paraded out not as ideologies at all but rather as noble thoughts and
ideals.
The problem is that these *noble thoughts and ideals* are covered in
pig-swill.
By this is meant that while there is no doubt that the rights of each
individual must be upheld and protected within the Cause of God we must be
extremely careful to not accept with open arms all of the political and
philosophical elements that are the central conduits for the social/spiritual
dieases that are causing the Old World Order to unravel.
>>This new-born Administrative Order incorporates within its
structure certain elements which are to be found in each of the
three recognized forms of secular government, without being in
any sense a mere replica of any one of them, and without introducing
within its machinery any of the objectionable features
which they inherently possess. It blends and harmonizes, as no
government fashioned by mortal hands has as yet accomplished,
the salutary truths which each of these systems undoubtedly contains
without vitiating the integrity of those God-given verities on which
it is ultimately founded.
(World Order of Baha'u'llah, pages 152-153)
And it is this that has been the responding voice of those that continue
to tout liberal-democratic ideals, in toto, as being essential to the
betterment of the Faith here in America.
Not only does the Faith *incorporate* within it various political elements
of old world governments that find a resonating harmony in the teachings of
Baha'u'llah, but also if we look at the three functioning axiologies in the
world and turn our attention to the Faith we will see them reflected there as
well. The best features of Man-to-Object, Man-to-Man and Man-to-Group can bee
seen reflected in the structure of the Cause and Adminsitrative Order.
And each of the negative features are turned aside. It would seem that
here on Talisman, where the vast majority of participants have been raised
within the Man-to-Object axiology we see the struggle to seperate out what is
and is not acceptable about such an axiology.
And the two main negative features of our axiology are 1.) excessive
emphasis on the fulfillment of the desires of the individual to the exclusion
of the needs of the community, and 2.) material/physical existence as being
either ALL there is to Existence or ALL that really matters in the end.
Do not underestimate how deeply buried each of these are within us. The
Guardian wrote over and over for us to root these *tendencies* (and here I
think he meant this word in the philosophical sense - i.e. tendential nature
- to tend or move toward, conciously and sub-conciously). Do not think that
the materialism he is speaking about is simply material *greed*. All humans
struggle with that to some degree. It is much deeper here. But this is off
the point. We can return to that later.
What we desperately need, starting here in Talisman is to combine our
talents and move America toward its spiritual destiny. In that process we
will begin to more clearly sift out those elements of American legal, social,
and political philosophies that find a resonating spirit within the Faith. We
will individually and collectively mature. Our Administrative Order will
mature. The pain and suffering caused by the immaturity will be replaced with
wonder as we see the Cause answering strongly like a clarion call to the
needs of this country.
There is no doubt that there is a lot of pain to suffer through yet. One
reason the Guardian was so emphatic about the dangers of the American
*mindset* is that the underlying axiology that informs it has the greatest
appeal to the human ego. I think we see this here on Talisman - _not
intentionally_ but still we see an angry refusal to let go of old patterns of
thought and old ego world-views. We want to bring all of America into the
Faith with us, the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the U.S. Supreme Court,
the corner 7-11 store, HBO, the latest Vogue issue, and of course with all
that comes the wonderful malestrom of confusion, anger, distrust,
selfishness, dispair, all wonderfully combined with that All-American "Get
the hell away I know what I'm doin' here!!!!!" attitude.
No. Baha'u'llah didn't spend most His life in prison so that His followers in
America could express their deepest sentiments and faith via a bumpersticker
on the back of a 1989 Volvo.
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 12:35:33 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: shastri@best.com (Shastri Purushotma)
Subject: Fate of Covenant Breakers
Dear friends,
It is very interesting to do a study of the ultimate fate of
Covenant-Breakers and enemies of the Faith.
You would think that after 150 years of clear patterns of history
these losers would take the hint!! ... but then maybe there really
are creatures with IQ's many orders of magnitude lower than a jellyfish!!
Here are just a few examples from the Writings:
=========================================================================
" ...The scheming Jamalu'd-Din Afghani, whose relentless hostility and
powerful influence had been so gravely detrimental to the progress
of the Faith in Near Eastern countries, was, after a checkered career
filled with vicissitudes, stricken with cancer, and having had a major
part of his tongue cut away in an unsuccessful operation perished in
misery. "
(God Passes By, page 317)
" To all National Spiritual Assemblies
Dear Baha'i Friends,
The following cable has been sent to the National
Spiritual Assembly of the United States for publication
in "Baha'i News". Please share this announcement with
the friends under your jurisdiction.
"CHARLES MASON REMEY WHOSE ARROGANT ATTEMPT
USURP GUARDIANSHIP AFTER PASSING SHOGHI EFFENDI
LED TO HIS EXPULSION FROM RANKS FAITHFUL HAS
DIED IN FLORENCE ITALY IN HUNDREDTH YEAR OF HIS
LIFE BURIED WITHOUT RELIGIOUS RITES ABANDONED
BY ERSTWHILE FOLLOWERS. HISTORY THIS PITIABLE
DEFECTION BY ONE WHO HAD RECEIVED GREAT HONOURS
FROM BOTH MASTER AND GUARDIAN CONSTITUTES YET
ANOTHER EXAMPLE FUTILITY ALL ATTEMPTS UNDERMINE
IMPREGNABLE COVENANT CAUSE BAHA'U'LLAH".
With loving Baha'i greetings,
The Universal House of Justice
(Five Year Plan, pages 28-29)"
"... Hajibu'd-Dawlih,that bloodthirsty fiend, who had strenuously hounded
down so many innocent and defenseless Babis, fell in his turn a victim to
the fury of the turbulent Lurs, who, after despoiling him of his
property, cut off his beard, and forced him to eat it, saddled and
bridled him, and rode him before the eyes of the people, after which
they inflicted under his very eyes shameful atrocities upon his womenfolk
and children. The Sa'idu'l-'Ulama, the fanatical, the ferocious
and shameless mujtahid of Barfurush, whose unquenchable hostility
had heaped such insults upon, and caused such sufferings to, the
heroes of Tabarsi, fell, soon after the abominations he had perpetrated,
a prey to a strange disease, provoking an unquenchable thirst
and producing such icy chills that neither the furs he wrapped himself
in, nor the fire that continually burned in his room could
alleviate his sufferings. "
(God Passes By, pages 82- 83)
"...Grand Vizir, ordered the plunder and burning of the village of
Takur, as well as the destruction of the house of Baha'u'llah, was, a
year later, stricken with plague and perished wretchedly, shunned
by even his nearest kindred. Mihr-'Ali Khan, the Shuja'u'l-Mulk,
who, after the attempt on the Shah's life, so savagely persecuted the
remnants of the Babi community in Nayriz, fell ill, according to
the testimony of his own grandson, and was stricken with dumbness,
which was never relieved till the day of his death. His accomplice,
Mirza Na'im, fell into disgrace, was twice heavily fined, dismissed
from office, and subjected to exquisite tortures. The regiment which,
scorning the miracle that warned Sam Khan and his men to dissociate
themselves from any further attempt to destroy the life of the
Bab, volunteered to take their place and riddled His body with its
bullets, lost, in that same year, no less than two hundred and fifty
of its officers and men, in a terrible earthquake between Ardibil and
Tabriz; two years later the remaining five hundred were mercilessly
shot in Tabriz for mutiny, and the people, gazing on their exposed
and mutilated bodies, recalled their savage act, and indulged in such
expressions of condemnation and wonder as to induce the leading
mujtahids to chastise and silence them. "
(God Passes By, page 84)
"... The notorious Mujtahid Siyyid Sadiq-i-Tabataba'i,
denounced by Baha'u'llah as "the Liar of Tihran," the author of the
monstrous decree condemning every male member of the Baha'i community
in Persia, young or old, high or low, to be put to death, and
all its women to be deported, was suddenly taken ill, fell a prey to a
disease that ravaged his heart, his brain and his limbs, and precipitated
eventually his death. "
(God Passes By, page 232)
"... "... His brother, Mirza Diya'u'llah, died prematurely;
Mirza Aqa Jan, his dupe, followed that same brother, three years
later, to the grave; and Mirza Badi'u'llah, his chief accomplice, betrayed
his cause, published a signed denunciation of his evil acts, but
rejoined him again, only to be alienated from him in consequence of
the scandalous behavior of his own daughter. Mirza Muhammad-'Ali's
half-sister, Furughiyyih, died of cancer, whilst her husband, Siyyid
Ali, passed away from a heart attack before his sons could reach him,
the eldest being subsequently stricken in the prime of life, by the same
malady. Muhammad-Javad-i-Qazvini, a notorious Covenant-breaker,
perished miserably. Shu'a'u'llah who, as witnessed by Abdu'l-Baha
in His Will, had counted on the murder of the Center of the Covenant,
and who had been despatched to the United States by his
father to join forces with Ibrahim Khayru'llah, returned crestfallen
and empty-handed from his inglorious mission. Jamal-i-Burujirdi,
Mirza Muhammad-'Ali's ablest lieutenant in Persia, fell a prey to a
fatal and loathsome disease; Siyyid Mihdiy-i-Dahaji, who, betraying
Abdu'l-Baha, joined the Covenant-breakers, died in obscurity and
poverty..."
(God Passes By, page 319)
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 96 14:10:43 PST
Subject: Top Ten CD's
To: talisman@indiana.edu
I've enjoyed the ten books business so much and learned so much about
you all that I thought of this one.
I spend more time with music than I do with books. So I started to
wonder about you all. What are your favorite CD's / and/or records.
I tend to go by artists as much as specific CD's. And I noticed that
some of you named books and others named authors.
So now, what about music.
I'll go first.
1. The whole Bossa Nova Stuff. I love it so much it drives me crazy.
I'm especially fond of the *Compact* series, BEst of bossa Nova,
which featured the work of Getz, Ghilberto, and Jobim.
2. The Ella FitzGerald/Louis Armstrong duet sessions. Lots of other
Ella. Lots of Louis.
3. A two disk set of Fred Astaire stuff
4. Ray Charles and Betty Carter duets. Lots of Ray. Some Betty
5. Guys and Dolls, the broadway revival album. Brilliant! And then
lots of other original cast albums.
6. Kathleen Battle and Christopher Parkening, especially the John
Dowland pieces.
7. Glenn Gould doing the French Suites
8. Roll up the Rug, which is a rhythm and blues compilation disk
featuring Taj Mahal, Katie Webster,
9. Paul Simon: Rhythm of the Saints, Graceland, Hearts and Bones.
10. A decent smattering of Fifties Doo Wop
And gobs more. This is much more difficult than doing books!
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/27/96
Time: 14:10:44
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
[end of 1/27/96 session]
Talisman emails received 1/28/96
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 96 10:31 GMT+1300
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Alison & Steve Marshall
Subject: Steve Marshall's bio note and book-list
I haven't done a bio-note on Talisman for about a year, so I thought it was
time I recycled this one from Korero; the NZ Baha'i-related mailing list.
There was a time in my life when I was stateless. You see, I was born in
England, and came out to the Pacific region with my parents in the 1960's,
as part of an Australian government scheme that was popularly known as
"assisted passage". I suspect the scheme was designed to flood Australia
with people who, if they weren't White Anglo-Saxon Protestants, were "at
least European" -- in other words, it was probably racially motivated.
Mum and Dad paid 20 pounds each. My brother and I got free passage and
emigrated on our parents' passports.
Australia didn't live up to my parents' expectations so we moved to New
Zealand after our bonded two-year stay had expired. We were fully expecting
to return to England, but fell in love with New Zealand and settled here.
Mum's family were were of Scottish origin and her mother and grandfather
both spoke fluent Arabic - they'd lived in a Moslem salt-mining town (Wadi
Natruz) in Egypt in the early part of the century. Dad's father was an oil
broker ...with somewhat different Moslem connections, I suppose. The family
money flowing out of my grandfather's stint as an oil broker continues
today. It's been easy for me to be relatively "poor"; knowing that there's
money available if I need it.
Mum and Dad didn't quite fit in post-war Britain and had the courage and
independence to leave. They've accepted a lot of things that I've done
because they've recognised that they did similar things at my age. It
surprised my 16-year-old peers that they let me buy a motorbike / become a
Baha'i / hitchhike through NZ. Equally, it surprised my friends, fifteen
years later, that my parents had no difficulty with me changing my surname
when I got married. It's no wonder that "Bollam" is on the endangered
surnames list.
I didn't apply for New Zealand citizenship for a long time, mainly because I
didn't have a burning desire to travel overseas. Without NZ citizenship I
might've had difficulty returning to my adopted country. My brother,
meanwhile, was becoming a seasoned world traveller and was accumulating
passports and citizenship privileges in several countries. I guess there are
many paths to world citizenship.
This hasn't been the standard bio-note, but I tend to avoid the what-I-do
format anyway. Most of you know me already, and this way I can launch into
"Part II: Steve Drops Out And Moves To The South Island", any time I like.
Perhaps Part I helps explain/excuse some aspects of my character. I hope so.
Mailing lists like Korero [and Talisman] bring together groups of people who
often know too little about each other to develop the usual prejudices.
However, they also know too little about each other to be able to consider
with care and sympathy what they are saying and hearing.
-------------------
p.s. I discovered I wasn't the first in my family to become a Baha'i. A
relative of my mother had become a Baha'i in the 1950's, I think, and moved
to Canada. The family name is Pemberton-Piggott. I've tried to contact them
but without success.
Books and authors:
Cynthia Voight - Homecoming
Robert Pursig (sp?) - Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance
Bahiyyih Najhkavani - Asking questions: a challenge to fundamentalism
A. A. Milne - Winnie-the-Pooh And the house at Pooh Corner
Kahlil Gibran - The Prophet
Hermann Hesse - The glass bead game
John Seymour - (Self-sufficiency stuff, I forget the titles)
Duglas Adams - The four books in "The hitch-hiker's guide to
the Universe" trilogy
John Naisbitt - Megatrends
Wolf Wolfensberger - The principle of normalisation in human services
Anthony Lee (ed.) - Circle of Unity
ka kite ano,
Steve
--------------------------------------------------------------
Alison and Steve Marshall
Email: forumbahai@es.co.nz
90 Blacks Road, Opoho, Dunedin/Otepoti, Aotearoa/New Zealand
--------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 96 13:23:28 PST
Subject: RE: Continental Counselors
To: talisman@indiana.edu, "Mark A. Foster"
Dear me! Dear Friends:
If we have faith in our path,then surely we must know that the very
next issue to arise before us is precisely the issue we must master
to proceed further.
I love the infuriating persistance of the confusion. " Did you think
you would take this path and not be tested?"
Let me quote and then stop at the sentence that blew my fuses --
always a humbling experience.
On Sat, 27 Jan 1996 10:41:01 -0600 (CST) Mark A. Foster wrote:
>To: talisman@indiana.edu
>
>Talismanians,
>
> It surprised me to see some of the folks on this list
disagreeing,
>or at least questioning, the guidance of the Counselor. Isn't it
true
>that the Continental Boards of Counselors have a higher rank than
the
>National Spiritual Assemblies? While they are not "the rulers," do
we
>imagine that a Counselor would post something of this nature unless
he
>felt that it was in accordance with the wishes of the Universal
House of
>Justice? And what would give us the right to openly differ, on a
public
>email list, with a member of the Continental Board of Counselors?
There it is: "What would give us the right to openly differ... etc. "
As I've said before, if you want to know what is really sacred to
someone, then look at what it is that most fires up their defensive
system. And this sentence has done it to me.
What is the Baha'i answer to the question: "What gives us the right
to openly differ with a member of the Continental Board of
Counselors?"'
Perhaps, because I am an American, I have never ever in my life
questioned whether I had a right to openly differ with any one about
anything. Or maybe it is because I am a Jew, the descendent of
Abraham who argued with God, not a representative, not a mid level
official but God.
So I think that God gives me the right to openly differ with God, his
Manifestations and the representatives of his Manifestations. I think
that God gives me the right to openly go to Hell. And even if I chose
wrong, God gives me the right to change my mind although there is the
horrible penalty of then having to see -- often for years afterwards
-- all the harm done by my bullheadedness.
But the key issue here is not so much the right to disagree, but
rather the right to disagree publically. Right?
Should
>not such disagreements be conveyed privately to the Counselor or to
the
>Universal House of Justice itself?
Is Mark saying that I do not have the right to publically disagree?
Why not. What is dishonorable about disagreeing? What is
disrespectful about disagreeing? Even if I am naive, limited, and
immature, don't I still have the right to be respected while I think
my own way through this.
There is something so suspicious here.
Do we think that the Baha'i Faith is
>so egalitarian that a statement made by a Counselor is no different
than
>if it had been said by you or I?
Eqalitarianism has nothing to do with the issues. Let me give the
example of the Master class. I am a classical guitarist. I take a
master class from a traveling virtuoso and what that is, is a private
lesson given in front of a class. In an afternoon, we all assemble
and watch each other get a private lesson from the Master.
I'm a virtuoso swing dancer and I give lessons the same way. Some
students learn better being part of the class. Other's learn more by
watching the private lesson. Both styles of learning are needed to
create mastery. And more than that, as the teacher in such a setting,
I am especially careful of the relationship between me and the
student. I always hear what I am doing in the teaching process, not
only through my eyes and the student's eyes, but also through the
very protective and interested eyes of the class. The experience is
heightened for all of us.
Similarly, there would be an enormous difference in the meaning of
this very letter were I to send it directly to you instead of posting
it on Talisman as I am doing. The context of Talisman gives many
additional dimensions to all that we are saying to each other. The
absence of privacy adds so much.
I think if we started to analyze under what conditions this letter
would have been better send privately and when not we would uncover a
lot more on the ins and outs of this issue. But onward, for now.
There is a meta-message in this business of requiring disagreements
to be private, as if there were a Right involved here. I think the
Right that I have is a Right to learn publically and to be taught
publically.
Over the months, I have exposed all sorts of rough edges here on
Talisman and I've done so because I really want to learn a few things
and I don't want to waste more time in my life being ignorant. I find
this public dialog tremendously enriching. I write with a deep
awareness of a large group of thoughtful, moral, intelligent,
supportive, and loving friends helping me through my education here.
It is very difficult for me to understand how such a process could be
questionable, let alone something for which even the *right to do it
may be questionable.*
Sorry If I went overboard here. And thank you Mark for placing me on
this edge.
Love
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/27/96
Time: 13:23:28
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: 27 Jan 96 13:50:39 U
From: "Dan Orey"
Subject: CB's from the x-files
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Time:1:42 PM
OFFICE MEMO CB's from the x-files Date:1/27/96
A Covenant Breaker Story for the X-files
About 10 years ago while finishing graduate studies in New Mexico, and coming
out, I was invited to attend a weekly (Saturday morning) gay men's Zen
mediation group. We met every Saturday at 6 (oh my god) thirty am. We were a
diverse group of men who met, meditated, and then went to breakfast. They
helped me at a time, when the Baha'is could not.
Now most Baha'is in New Mexico are familiar with a number of covenant breaker
types. I being a mathematician, scoffed at the tales I heard, "Oh when they
enter a room, you feel kind of strange", or " they have a energy field that
made me feel nauseous". Ugh, fuzzy crystal new age stuff...
One morning, after the group finished the meditation, we went to a restaurant
near the university. After ordering, I immediately felt a tremor in the force
(really!!). A very strange - in all aspects ( I thought he looks like an
alien), man entered and greeted one of the gentleman at the table, he sat next
to me. By then, I was thinking, I don't feel right, I wonder why? About that
time he looked at me, and said,
"Oh I see you are a Baha'i... so am I" He had seen my ring.
"O God, help me, another looser Baha'i at a time I can't take it", I thought to
myself. Out loud, I think I said something more like "that's nice" and hoping
he'd just drop it, and go away.
He then said, "I am an "orthodox Baha'i", upon which, my heart sank. He then
launched into a diatribe against the Beloved Guardian and the House of Justice.
It was so completely inappropriate that I think the others at the table were
put off as well.
Somewhere, and I confess it was automatic, something like a gentle but firm
rage welled up inside of me. I turned to him and looked him in the eye, and
said, " I have studied these things, I do not agree with you, indeed this is
not an appropriate place to talk about this". I turned back to my friends, and
at that moment, his plate flipped up into the air and into his lap! Tho he
didn't have egg on his face he had to wear it home....
This was an important moment in my life. Because I was very, very alone. Indeed
all I had was a few friends, no money, a very angry and vindictive ex-wife, and
a graduate committee who was less than any help. It was at this moment that I
knew that we are never ever alone. It is also why I get so very upset when
folks accuse me and other folks of lack of firmness in the covenant ....How
blessed we are to have a Manifestation with a sense of humor!
We are not alone! - Daniel (Viva talisman!)
" I do, I do, I do believe in spooks" - L. Frank Baum
=END=
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 16:11:28 -0800 (PST)
From: David M Simmons
To: Alethinos@aol.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Who is Helen Bishop?
On Sat, 27 Jan 1996 Alethinos@aol.com wrote:
> She was an incredible woman and a very dear friend. I miss her.
> jim harrison
Briefly, Helen Bishop served on the International Baha'i Council out of
Geneva, Switzerland. She was appointed by Shoghi Effendi to that body
which served up until the election of the Universal House of Justice in
1963. Also, she wrote the brilliant introduction to the Kitab-i-Iqan,
also, I believe, at the request of the Guardian. In her later years she
served on the Portland, Oregon, LSA. She passed away a few years back and
I believe she willed her house to the Assembly. This is what enabled the
believers there to obtain a Baha'i Center.
I'm sure others could give much more detail. I remember her from Winter
Schools in Western Washington back in the 1970s. She was eloquent and
dignified.
David Simmons
Spokane Valley, WA, USA
PS Forgive me if I am repeating something already stated. I have
missed out on the discussions lately.
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Missed Messages
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 20:13:02 -0600 (CST)
Folks,
If anyone has sent me any messages in the last couple of hours, please
resent. My email provider messed up and deleted my messages when I tried
to save them.
Mark Foster
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Rights
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 20:09:20 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Hi, Philip -
You wrote:
B >Let me quote and then stop at the sentence that blew my fuses --
B >always a humbling experience.
I apologize if my posting upset you. That was not my intention.
B >As I've said before, if you want to know what is really sacred to
B >someone, then look at what it is that most fires up their defensive
B >system. And this sentence has done it to me.
Philip, isn't the Covenant, by definition, sacred to all Baha'is? I
see nothing wrong with disagreement - but in its proper place. However,
IMHO, American notions of freedom of expression need to be moderated by
the Will (Covenant) of God. If a Continental Counselor, appointed by the
unerring institution of the Universal House of Justice, provides us with
information, in his role as a protector of the Faith of God, then, IMHO,
it behooves us to take notice. As an American coming out of the sixties,
and active in many of the movements toward the end of that decade, I
understand, I think, the desire to say what one feels and not to want to
conform to the "establishment." However, as Baha'is, it seems to me that
we need to temper that American anti-authoritarianism, possibly born in
the American Revolution against the British monarchy and more recently
reinforced in the Watergate debacle, with a recognition that we are part
of God's *new* creation.
B >So I think that God gives me the right to openly differ with God, his
B >Manifestations and the representatives of his Manifestations. I think
B >that God gives me the right to openly go to Hell. And even if I chose
B >wrong, God gives me the right to change my mind although there is the
B >horrible penalty of then having to see -- often for years afterwards
B >-- all the harm done by my bullheadedness.
I suppose, in a sense, that each one of us has the right to do
whatever she or he wants (or wills). However, as Baha'is, I think that
what is more important is God's Will (Covenant). And we discover that
Will by turning, with a heart full of love, to the Central Figures, the
Guardian, and the Universal House of Justice. IMHO, inner knowledge or
spiritual understanding are the result of the love of God. The Valley of
Knowledge follows, comes out of, the Valley of Love.
B >Is Mark saying that I do not have the right to publically disagree?
B >Why not. What is dishonorable about disagreeing? What is
B >disrespectful about disagreeing? Even if I am naive, limited, and
B >immature, don't I still have the right to be respected while I think
B >my own way through this.
B >
B >There is something so suspicious here.
Philip. The question, from my POV, is not what one has the right to
do. Our rights and freedoms have been aptly explained by the Universal
House of Justice. It is how we can apply what we know from the Teachings
in our lives and in our relationships with others.
To the Light,
Mark (Foster)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion * Full-Time College Faculty *
*Past (1995) Pres., Kansas Sociological Society * Owner, Baha'i Studies List *
*Director, Reality Sciences Institute * Co-Moderator, Another Baha'i List *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Staff, 3 CompuServe Religion Fora, incl. Baha'i Section Leader (72642,3105) *
*Chief Baha'i Chat Host, America Online (TFPMark) * mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us *
*Sysop, Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1) * mfoster@tyrell.net *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The Prophets of God have been the Servants of Reality; Their
Teachings constitute the science of reality." - `Abdu'l-Baha
"The sciences of today are bridges to reality; if then they lead not
to reality, naught remains but fruitless illusion." - `Abdu'l-Baha
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 96 15:00:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Memories of Ashchi -- part 1
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
The beloved Guardian wished for a detailed biography of
Baha'u'llah, drawing from many sources, and befitting the life of
the Supreme Manifestation of God, to be written. And while he
himself provided a masterful outline of this noble Life in God
Passes By, he commented to others that a separate volume,
detailing many events was yet to be prepared in English. His
manifold duties as the Guardian of the Cause of God, particularly
on the eve of launching the Ten Year World Crusade, perhaps the
single most important achievement of his ministry, prevented him
from undertaking this project. But he told a cousin of his,
Hasan M. Balyuzi, a Hand of the Cause and an Afnan, to research
and write such a biography of the Blessed Perfection.
Hasan Balyuzi had already written a 130-page long essay on the
life Baha'u'llah, "Baha'u'llah: the Word Made Flesh", when he set
out to do research for his trilogy on the life of the Central
Figures of the Cause. His volume on the life of the Blessed
Beauty, "Baha'u'llah: the King of Glory", was published in 1980.
In order to collect his materials, Balyuzi used many sources, but
the most important among them are:
1. Nabil's narrative (unpublished section)
2. memories of Aqa Husayn Ashchi
3. narrative of Aqa Riday-i Qannad
4. narrative of Mirza Habib Afnan
Of these 4 manuscripts, I am in possession of the second and the
fourth items, and if there is sufficient interest on Talisman,
would like to spend some time outlining them for everyone's
enjoyment. And if anyone finds it boring or has any objection,
please advise and I'll cease immediately. However, for now, I'm
going to assume that folks on Talisman have no objection if I
start a series on these two manuscripts.
Before we delve into the subject, allow me to share an important
point: I am a firm believer in use and distribution of primary
source documents. While like everybody else, I greatly enjoy
such secondary histories as "God Passes By", "Baha'u'llah: the
King of Glory", "Dawnbreakers", etc., I particularly value and
have an affinity for the words spoken by those blessed enough to
be eyewitness to the events. In the past, I've briefly described
some of the Babi narratives and hope at some point to get back to
that subject and discuss them more fully.
I also firmly believe that often the primary source documents
must be augmented with annotations and footnotes in order to make
them useful, balanced and comprehensible.
And that's where you guys come in ...
I'm willing to start the process by posting outlines of these
narratives. But I expect others to help out by posting passages
from God Passes By and Baha'u'llah: the King of Glory which will
provide the necessary background for the events or persons
described in the narrative so that we can have a full
perspective. If you have REFER, you're our hero!
In addition, we must have participation from such scholars as
Profs Juan Cole, John Walbridge, Steven Lambden and others so
that many aspects of the life and Writings of Baha'u'llah are
amplified. I hope they will contribute frequently and
generously.
I am confident that we can have a very wonderful deepening
coupled with new, exciting research information for our
collective enjoyment. But it will require participation from you
all. (You guys by now know the drill: If I sense low
participation, I'll drop the thread and move on to something
else. Sorry, but that's my character flaw.)
Let me say a few words about these two narratives which we'll use
to do our collective study:
Mirza Habib Afnan was a relative of the Bab and a son of Aqa
Mirza Aqa-i Afnan, surnamed Nuri'd-Din. Together with his
brothers (one of whom is the Hand of the Cause of God, Aqa Siyyid
Aqa-i Afnan) and their illustrious father, Mirza Habib who was
born and raised in the House of the Bab in Shiraz, visited
Baha'u'llah in 1991-2 as a young man and stayed in Holy Land as
Baha'u'llah's guest for nine months. He then moved to Egypt and
established their commercial enterprise these. This enabled him
to frequently visit the Master in Holy Land and indeed he is the
very person to whom Abdu'l-Baha entrusted the details of
Covenant-breaking activities of Muhammad-Ali and other sons of
Baha'u'llah.
Mirza Habib has left behind a marvelous narrative which shares
some unique stories of the childhood of the Bab, many glimpses of
Khadijih Bagum (the Bab's wife) who had raised Mirza Habib as her
own son, and of course many aspects of Baha'u'llah's daily doings
as observed Him during his nine months of stay in Holy Land and
then concludes with a very large section of the events after the
passing of Baha'u'llah (for the next 4 years). It is absolutely
no exaggeration to say that this narrative is among the most
important treasures of this Cause as it offers details about the
events associated with the Heroic Age of our Cause that are truly
unique.
My wife, Maryam, who is editing and preparing annotations for
this narrative has given me permission to post extracts from this
narrative. Mirza Habib's son, Abu'l-Qasim Afnan (my father-in
law) had given a copy of this narrative to his cousin Jinab-i
Balyuzi who not only incorporated sections in his "The Bab" but
also devoted a whole chapter in his "Baha'u'llah: the King of
Glory" to it, (starting page 403) as well as using it throughout
his book. But still much more remains in this precious narrative
seen by so few.
However chronologically it makes more sense to start with Aqa
Husayn Ashchi's narrative first as it surveys the events from the
Baghdad period forward.
Starting with the next post, we'll outline memories of Ashchi and
again let's hope for good participation by Talismanians as we
focus on the life of the Blessed Perfection.
love to all, ahang.
=END=
From: Kkonline@aol.com
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 18:06:52 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Fwd: meaning of POM POM
In a message dated 96-01-27 16:10:56 EST, banani@ucla.edu (Amin Banani)
writes:
>From: banani@ucla.edu (Amin Banani)
>To: Kkonline@aol.com
>
>Dear Kathy,
>Please post this on Talisman for me, attention Burl/Derek/Juan, that the
>references to "Irene, the POM POM girl" at UCLA have been totally
>misunderstood. Juan, while at UCLA and probably to this day, has been
>travelling on a spiritual journey. POM is simply the "code" for "path of
>mystics." Why the repetition of POM (+ POM), you ask? As all economists
>know, everything is cyclical, including mysticism apparently. Since I'm a
>sociologist/urban planner (thank God), I could be wrong here but, then, I
>NEVER actually met Irene.
>Love,
>Sheila Banani
>
>
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: banani@ucla.edu (Amin Banani)
To: Kkonline@aol.com
Date: 96-01-27 16:10:56 EST
Dear Kathy,
Please post this on Talisman for me, attention Burl/Derek/Juan, that the
references to "Irene, the POM POM girl" at UCLA have been totally
misunderstood. Juan, while at UCLA and probably to this day, has been
travelling on a spiritual journey. POM is simply the "code" for "path of
mystics." Why the repetition of POM (+ POM), you ask? As all economists
know, everything is cyclical, including mysticism apparently. Since I'm a
sociologist/urban planner (thank God), I could be wrong here but, then, I
NEVER actually met Irene.
Love,
Sheila Banani
>S-
>One could find oneself ILL if one read too much of this at one time!
>kk
>
>---------------------
>Forwarded message:
>From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT)
>Sender: owner-talisman@indiana.edu
>To: talisman@indiana.edu
>Date: 96-01-25 03:46:04 EST
>
>---- Begin Forwarded Message
>+OK
>Return-Path:
>Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu by ix5.ix.netcom.com
>(8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
> id KAA10359; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 10:28:24 -0800
>Received: (from daemon@localhost) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu
>(8.7.3/8.7.3/1.10IUPO) id NAA11360 for talisman-outgoing; Wed, 24 Ja
>Subject: Re: jejeune farmers and intellectuals
>Sender: owner-talisman@indiana.edu
>Precedence: bulk
>
> John Walbridge says:
>
>Juan used to use "majoritarian" and "irenic" at least once in each
>paper he
>wrote, but I broke him of it.
>
> Burl replies:
>
> When Juan was going to UCLA, he dated a majorette named Irene and he
>never
>got over her, despite his best efforts. (she was a most resistant lass
>of
>moral rectitude).
>
>Burl
>(I believe it was Shiela Banani who told me that Juan still has Irene's
>pom-poms stashed away in a closet as a meaningful Irenic majoretorian
>momento)
> Derek replies
>My dear Burl
>The sorry story gets even worse, she actually was as I recall an
>Economics major minoring in Pom Pom varitions on intellectual
>radicalism. This is why Juan has such a bias against Economists you say
>Econo and all those sad memories of unfulfilled young love returns .
>You would say based on that scoundrel Haines it caused blubbering in
>LA, that sounds like a film title to me. Naturally I am not as rude as
>you Burl so I would not insult our good friend Juan like you would by
>mentioning such things , however once Linda finds out what Juan did to
>Irene heaven help the poor chap.Anyway back to Juan's young love , as
>the story has been relayed to me through secret dark and forbidden
>sources. The fair and chaste Irene fled to England and got her PHD in
>Economics developing a formula of using POM POMs to create a chasity
>belt of moral development in the field of economic studies to reduce
>the emission level of graph paper production. She obtained her
>doctorate at LSE and still teaches there every Friday to the delight of
>all her students. The rest of her time she advises the EEC and the
>Russian Federation on the economic impact of producing eggs without
>their yolks. It is thought she may be granted a Nobel peace prize for
>this breakthrough work. Who said Economists were boring and immoral,
>Irene is an example to us of one who refused to be swayed by such
>things as Arabic grammar and Plato's Slave Republic . she is just as
>sweet and virginal as the day Juan first pursued her as all Economists
>are , we are the misunderstood aspect of humanity. When is the baha'i
>community going to start Adam Smith Day that Burl is the question of
>the day nay decade.
>Kindest Regards
>your best friend Derek
>
>*******************************************************
> MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
>Unlimited!
>********************************************************
Sheila Banani
2320 Alta Avenue, Santa Monica, California 90402
Tel (310) 394-5449
Fax (310) 394-6167
E-Mail: Banani@UCLA.Edu (Sheila)
=END=
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 12:18:07 +0700
To: "Ahang Rabbani" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: RE: Continental Counselors
Talismans,
Ahang wrote:
>And the reason that I raised this question publicly with Mr. (or
>Counselor) Birkland is because at the present all of us on
>Talisman (again, including Mark Foster) are under suspicion.
As a "sensitive" person myself, I recognise "sensitivity" when I see it,
and I think I see it here. I don't buy the "tarred with the same brush"
argument as used here. Do we not take our ultimate cues from the House?
To my knowledge the House has not said it is wrong to belong to Talisman.
Nor has any national or local assembly, for that matter. So I don't buy
what seems to be an exaggerated interpretation of what Cr. Birkland said.
I said yesterday that I think Cr. Birkland should be encouraged to write
more on this matter. In the meantime, I'd like to be able to recognise this
CB talismanite. In view of the seriousness of his/her "condition", the
innocent here have the right -- I think -- to be able to delete any message
s/he may send.
Actually, as a lurker, the CB does perform a useful function. Some of us
will -- I hope -- think twice before sending material that could harm the
Faith. Cr. Birkland's view on this reflects what I and many others have
been saying all along, and I don't see any good reason to change my
position now that it has been confirmed by a counselor!
Beyond this, however, it was deemed unconscionable by the list-owner that
certain Baha'i NHQ officers forward letters to other persons: how much more
unconscionable for a CB to be allowed use our really worst correspondence
to actively harm the Faith? The "they have CBs on other lists" argument is
rather weak (a bit like the "He steals cars so why shouldn't I?" argument)
especially in view of the fact that we have full knowledge and are able to
do something to remedy the situation. However, I am a mere ordinary
subscriber to this list, and recognise the limitations inherent in that
status. No one is twisting my arm to stay here. ;-}
Robert.
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 21:26:19 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Continental Counselors
I would like to know where in the Baha'i Writings the believers are
forbidden, or even discouraged, from disagreeing with the opinions or
statements of a member of the Board of Counsellors (or any other individual
Baha'i). I believe that to make such a statement runs the risk of investing
the Counsellors, and others, with a power and authority which Baha'u'llah
clearly intended that they should not have.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 96 20:11:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Continental Counselors
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Dear Mark,
I just want to say that I fully concur with everything you said
and I appreciate you taking time to write. We both are saying
the same (on the non-trivial matters at least). Anyway, I've
moved on to Ashchi's memories and would like to leave this other
issues to minds abler than mine to worry.
much love, ahang.
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 17:03:23 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: favorite books
Dear Friends ,
The following arte the books (?) which fundamentally influenced how i
"see' the world and my life within it .
1) Kitab i Iqan
2) "Maiden" literature of Bahau llah
3) Seven Valleys
4) The Secret of Divine Civilization
5) The Promised Day is Come
1) Social Construction of Reality - Peter Berger /Thomas Luchman
2) Machiavalian Moment:Florentine Political Thought and the Atlantic
Republican Tradition ---- J. G . A. Pocock
3) Democratic Promise: The Populist Revolt - Lawrence Goodwyn
4) The Unsettling of America: Culture and Agriculture - Wendell Berry
5) The Nature of True Virtue - Jonathan Edwards
6) Wholeness and the Implicate Order - David Bohm
7)Creative Imagination in the Sufism of Ibn Arabi -- Henry Corbin
8) Jesus: A Revolutinary Biography - John Dominic Crossan
9) Sex , Ecology , and Spirituality - Ken Wilber
10 ) Ralph W. Emerson 's Essay's esp. "Plato or the Philospher " and
"Compensation"
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 18:45:23 -0500
To: rabbana@a1.bmoa.umc.dupont.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Memories of Ashchi -- part 1
Dearest Ahang ,
At the moment I cant think of anything more rewarding than having you and
any others do an "outline " of the life of Baha u llah . If anybody finds
it boring you can post it all to me and I will use it for next months
Talisman deepening in our community. The friends here would love it ; The
life and times of Bahau lah constantly comes up as a subject in Omaha and we
have so little to go on . Please do it .
warm regards ,
Terry
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 96 16:00:53 PST
Subject: RE: Continental Counselors
To: "mfoster@tyrell.net" <"mfoster@tyrell.net"@esds01.mrgate.bmoa.umc.dupont.
com>,
talisman@indiana.edu, Ahang Rabbani
On Sat, 27 Jan 96 11:13:01 -0500 Ahang Rabbani wrote:
Dear Ahang,
I do so appreciate the measured cadence of your reply to Mark. I am
afraid I just end up sputtering.
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/27/96
Time: 16:00:53
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 20:53:03 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: film
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
Cc: "Talisman"
Dear Brent,
I don't really have contacts in the business. The problem with those old
shows is, as I understand it, they didn't have video system's like we
have today. "Live shows" , like Ed Sullivan in the '50ies were stored on
kineoscopes or something (I'm not really sure what those are they're so
primitive) that are not very good and the storage of these copies was
done with little regard for future uses of the material. The prints
were allowed to deteriorate or were lost, stolen whatever. Most if not
all of the network "live" stuff is still in New York stored in
wharehouses.
I did see a new Talismanian who introduced himself as a screenwriter and
a recent university graduate. My approach to film was not historical per
se that is I don't do historical criticism. However, historical
background is of great importance. I told Nima, who is interested in
putting together a "A Year Amongst the Persians" deal, that Tony Lee of
Kalimat Press might know someone or know someone who know's someone. I
feel certain there are Baha'is working in the business in Los Angeles.
Perhaps you could put something out on Baha'i Announce. Finally, what
about Robert Quigley the Baha'i TV producer? Anyway that is the extent
of my knowledge in the matter.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 12:32:33 +0700
To: Dave10018@aol.com, LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: homosexuality again
Linda wrote:
>
>>I thank Jackson for taking the time to post his interesting statement on
>>variations in family life and sexual behavior. While I agree Dave that he
>is
>>not attacking the Aqdas's position, he is making it clear that the world is
>>not
>>divided neatly into our categories of heterosexual and homosexual.
>>Baha'u'llah
>>was a Prophet of God - not an anthropologist or a cataloguer of cultural
>>traits. I believe that he wanted us to be chaste. But if the Baha'i Faith
>>is
>>going to be truly universal, we do need to be open to a whole world of
>>differences. Otherwise, we will just be a very narrow little cult.
I don't know what this means. Does Linda wish to challenge the House's view
of homosexuality? Dave?
Robert
=END=
From: SSchaut@aol.com
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 17:37:28 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Freedoms and Processes
Rick -
I realize that you raised the question: " which process, popular vote or
Baha'i insitutional consultation, is more likely to produce an optimal
solution to the problem of maximizing freedom while minimizing the extent to
which these freedoms can be abused?" to get
individuals thinking of processes....but....how can one raise the question
when one process is Divinely ordained...ie a Manifestation of God didn't give
the idea of popular vote to the world. I thought we talked about dumb
questions years ago.
Mom (Sue Schaut)
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 17:10:17 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Natural Law & Natural Rights: Part 2
The whole point in posting that very long examination of Plato's concept of
the term Nature and how this shaped the development of natural law was to set
the stage to examine how the Faith must view natural law and natural rights.
Further it is to examine the long thread of spiritual reality, of true
Metaphysics that is our spiritual inheritance. The resemblence between
Platonic thought and mataphysics and the teaching of the Faith are
remarkable.
Our actions as individuals and as a community need to be guided by natural
law. This is very much what Baha'u'llah meant I think, when He stated:
2. O SON OF SPIRIT!
The best beloved of all things in My sight is Justice;
turn not away therefrom if thou desirest
Me, and neglect it not that I may confide in thee.
By its aid thou shalt see with thine own eyes and
not through the eyes of others, and shalt know of
thine own knowledge and not through the knowledge
of thy neighbor. Ponder this in thy heart;
how it behooveth thee to be. Verily justice is My
gift to thee and the sign of My loving-kindness. Set
it then before thine eyes.
(Arabic Hidden Words, page 2)
Now (to jump ahead here) anyone who has spent _any_ time in college classes
dealing with Constitutional law, or general law courses, political science or
philosophy classes knows that the moment someone opens their mouth and utters
the word *Justice* eyes roll, tongues, there is great wailing and gnashing of
good old subjectivist teeth. "How can any of us know what real justice is!"
is one cry that is heard. "Would you want to trust in someone's notion of
justice if you were on trial?!!" is another.
And yet the streets, the cocktail parties (read Mr. Lapham's as usual
excellent editorial in this month's Haper's Magazine) those very same
classrooms are filled with the anguished and stridant accusations of all the
*injustice* that is occurring about us and someone ought to do something
about it.
What Plato thought and said, what the Prophets taught and What Baha'u'llah
has come to fulfill is that there can be heaven on earth. That Justice can
reside in the human heart and be manifested in every clearer degrees.
Now lest anyone accuse me of a thinly veiled advocacy of Absolutism let me
state that I am no supporter of any such thing. Our Administrative Order
already has various elements of due process. And there is NO doubt that we
will see this expanded as our community matures (if the American community
ever gets it together and heads on down the road.) Nor am I stating that we
should abandon the Rule of Law. But in saying this I am certainly NOT
advocating the mile-long train of Western philosophical and psychological
thought that has been the underpinning of the concept of the Rule of Law for
the past 350 years.
We are moving on, as the Guardian said. And just one of the little beauties
of the Faith is that for the first time in the history of the human race we
are at the threshold where we will not, as Plato said, have to depend on the
"second best" (Laws 875 a-d) - that is laws as opposed to wisdom and justice.
Laws are by their very nature static. A Constitution written two centuries
ago cannot possibly hope to be able to completely answer the needs of this
day. The Founding Fathers were incredible men, brilliant (esp. Madison I
think) but they knew that the needs of the People change. Thus the Supreme
Court. But there were serious flaws in its structure and even more in the
underlying philosophical assumptions that were to serve as a guarantee that
justice would continue to prevail. The main one is that it is not possible
for humans to *know* justice. Not really. The hope was that with legislatures
and courts and debates at best we could come close to it at rare instances
and most the time at least stave off true injustices. This is certainly the
attitude of some of the leading proponents of legal positivism - such as
Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes.
But we are standing at the edge of a truly new era for humankind. This is a
Day unlike any other in our history. And we need to be ready to explore truly
new territory of the human mind and soul. If we wish to truly establish
Justice we have to be ready to jettison old notions, prejudices and fears. We
have to be willing to endure a the anxiety of exploration and not cringe
everytime we hit a bump. We will, without doubt make mistakes. The Guardian
promised us that esp. for the Baha'is in America our pathy would be thorny
and difficult.
>>Milestones of historic significance have been successively reached
and rapidly left behind. A still stonier stretch of road now lies before
them. Rumblings of catastrophes yet more dreadful agitate with increasing
frequency a sorely stressed and chaotic world, presenting a
challenge to grapple with the unfinished tasks, a challenge graver and
still more pressing than any hitherto experienced.
(Citadel of Faith, page 60)
And this is what some of us have been calling for. We are not advocates of
an Administrative Order that practices draconian measures. God forbid. Nor
are we cheerleaders for keeping the status quo. That should be more than
apparent. So what are we? Spiritual revolutionaries. We want to see _real_
change, real growth. Not this quagmire the Faith has been sitting in for over
three and a half decades. Nor do we want to see any more Old World
misconceptions and immature ideologies dragged into the Faith and hoisted up
on pedestals to be semi-worshipped as the *missing* crown jewel of the Cause
in America. We are not here, as Baha'is, to enshrine Apple Pie and Baseball
and the ever more nasty cry "I can do whatever the bloody @#%$&*?!"@@ I
WANT!!!!"
We are here to bring a spiritual revolution, nothing less. We are here to
help heal a spiritually devastated land. We are here to hold up to the world
those elements of American life and belief that ARE truly wonderful and agree
with the spiritual reality that Baha'u'llah has brought to us. We are not
here to pan America wholesale. We are not here to trash one race and blindly
extoll another. We are not here to promote any partisan political agenda. We
are here to bring love and hope to those facing the "slough of impending
extinction." (GL. p. 316)
And the longer that we keep trying to accomidate ourselves, the community,
the Faith and Baha'u'llah to the current American landscape the longer we
will, if we have any sight at all, continue to witness, bewildered, death,
horror, despair, confusion, anger, and the disintegration of the very real
metaphysical fabric that binds us as humans.
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 17:30:07 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Alethinos@aol.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Who is Helen Bishop?
On Sat, 27 Jan 1996 Alethinos@aol.com wrote:
> [Helen Bishop] was an incredible woman and a very dear friend. I miss her.
She authored the introduction to the Iqan in the earlier editions. She
was a well-educated woman who represented the Faith at the Baha'i Bureau
office in the 30's in Geneva; the precursor to the Baha'i International
Community staff at the various UN venues of today. She flavored her
comments with literary references. I went to Portland to visit her, and I
remember her telling me that her TV horizontal hold was on the fritz. She
said it like this: "There was Dick Cavett, divided into three parts like
Gaul, and whirling like a dervish!"
She was a font not only of knowledge, but of spirit. She could speak of
the Guardian as only those who met him could do. I recall her telling us
at Bosch (in 1983?) that he was the most complete man she had ever met.
=END=
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 16:49:49 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: "Richard C. Logan"
Cc: Talisman
Subject: film
Richard, I see that you are a film theorist. Do you know how to do
historical film research?
1. There was a professionally produced film of 'Abdu'l-Baha walking
outside of the Hotel Ansonia in NYC for viewing in the movie houses. It
is referred to in Star of the West. No known copies are extant according
to the US Baha'i Archivist. This is not the same film as taken in
Brooklyn beginning with the Master arriving in an old car, and shaking
hands with many people.
2. Hand of the Cause Sears was twice on the Ed Sullivan Show with his "In
the Park" crew (back in the 50's? -- Marguerite Sears has some idea of the
dates). She thinks that those shows were probably not recorded -- most
were not; however she wants to check out the possibility and locate the
recordings if available.
Do you know how to check this out?
Brent
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Continental Counselors
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 17:54:36 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Hi, Ahang
You wrote:
R>If you are referring to my posting, I did not disagree with
R>Counselor Birkland on cautioning about the presence of associate
R>of CB on this list. In fact, very clearly I stated that I share
R>the same concerns and sentiments. I did ask him some questions
R>though, but after all even Baha'u'llah has permitted questions to
R>be asked of Him. Do you have a Tablet that says questions may
R>not be put to Counselors though? ;-}
I was not _specifically_ referring to anyone's posting in my
message. However, yours was not even one I had in mind while I was
writing. I certainly don't see why questions cannot be asked of members
of the institution of the learned. As I see it, their responsibilities,
in part, include offering guidance and advice on various subjects. My
concern was over openly disagreeing (challenging?) what the Counselor
said. I don't view publicly differing with a member of the Continental
Board of Counselors as identical with differing with something that you
or I might say.
R>In fact that was one of the questions that I very respectfully
R>asked the Counselor. You see, Mark, you're jumping to conclusion
R>here. You have assumed that since an email came from Steven
R>Birkland it means a communication was received from a member of
R>Continental Board of Counselors. He did not sign his post as a
R>member of that august body, and I make no such assumptions about
R>it. He is a man, like you and I, entitled to his thoughts
R>*outside* and *separate* from the awesome office that he
R>discharges.
That is possible, Ahang. However, as I see it, the Counselors and
Auxiliaries, unlike members of the institution of the rulers, operate as
individuals. I would not take a statement from an individual member of a
national assembly as having any authority (though I might want to listen
carefully ), but, when the subject is a protection issue (as this one
was), I would regard a communication from a Hand or a Counselor a bit
differently. That is only my personal POV.
R>If we all go to Burger King and Mr. Birkland orders Big Fries,
R>does it mean the Continental Board or the World Centre wish from
R>now on for the faithful to eat Big Fries? No, it means he likes
R>Big Fries and its OK for you and I to order onion rings. He is
R>entitled to his thoughts and actions outside of the office of
R>Counselorship.
I presume you are not being serious. ;-) In any case, I think I have
answered that one above. Besides, I go to Wendy's .
R>And this question is where the rubber meets the road.
R>Are you talking about Juan's or my comments? Would you clarify?
R>Meanwhile, I'm going to assume you have my posting in mind and as
R>such I like to respond.
Ahang, I am not going to single out an individual for any sort of
criticism on a public email list. It is not my place to give it. As
Baha'is, we are to be loving and kind to one another. As I wrote above,
I was not thinking of your posting. But there were a few others which I
personally found surprising. Unless I feel that there is a unity issue
involved, and it might not be my place even to concern myself with that,
I will rarely say anything to anyone directly. That is my preference. In
this case, I said my piece, and I can't think of anything beneficial to
add. And who am I? What difference does it make what I think? We are all
in the same "Noah's ark," as my late friend Elizabeth Thomas used to say.
R>Counselor (or Mr., we don't know which yet) Birkland did not
R>convey his displeasure with certain of postings in a private
R>communication; it was an open posting. In this posting Talisman
R>(Mark Foster included) was accused as saying things which
R>undermine and challenge the Covenant. So, I must ask, have you,
R>Mark Foster, been saying things that undermine and challenge the
R>Covenant? Are you a proto-Covenant-breaker? Have I been
R>challenging the Covenant? Have I been breaking the Covenant? If
R>neither one of us, then who?
I didn't get the impression that any single individual was being
singled out. It seems to me is that we need to be cautious in what we
say because it might be used against us to create disunity. We should
not, IMO, underestimate the crippling and corrosive influence of those
who have blasphemed against the Holy Spirit. To a large extent, complete
obedience and loyalty to the House of Justice is our protection. That is
how I read this entire subject. But I will leave it at that.
R>As far as your suggestion about writing to the Universal House of
R>Justice is concerned, let us hope that we can resolve the entire
R>issue here in our own corner of universe as those dear folks have
R>the care and worry of the entire world on their shoulders. Let's
R>not bother them -- at least not as yet.
I didn't suggest that we write to the Universal House of Justice. I
said that, IMHO, it was ill-advised to state one's disagreements with a
member of the Continental Board of Counselors on a *public* email list.
If one differs, it would be preferable, IMV, to communicate one's
feelings in a *private* message to the Counselor or to the Universal
House of Justice.
Due to the nature of this subject, I respectfully request that any
further comments to me be made off the list.
To the Light,
Mark (Foster)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion * Full-Time College Faculty *
*Past (1995) Pres., Kansas Sociological Society * Owner, Baha'i Studies List *
*Director, The Reality Science Institute * Co-Moderator, Another Baha'i List *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Staff, 3 CompuServe Religion Fora, incl. Baha'i Section Leader (72642,3105) *
*Chief Baha'i Chat Host, America Online (TFPMark) * mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us *
*Sysop, Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1) * mfoster@tyrell.net *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The Prophets of God have been the Servants of Reality; Their
Teachings constitute the science of reality." - `Abdu'l-Baha
"The sciences of today are bridges to reality; if then they lead not
to reality, naught remains but fruitless illusion." - `Abdu'l-Baha
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 16:33:07 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Fwd: meaning of POM POM another hit against Economists
To: talisman@indiana.edu
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Received
Dear Talismaians
Once more Economists have been attacked on this list is there no
justice left . of course sheila you do not know Irene. She was known as
Irenic the pom pom wiz. as far Juam spiritual path is concerned his
dear wife Shahin as all wives do has been keeping himon the straight
and narrow path .However Juan is confused he keeps demanding from burl
and I all the the fun we have evidence he had when he was single
because he claims he can remember nothing but books and books not
girls.Remember Adam Smith Day.
Economists relaise there is unlimited spirituality and limited demand
hence the lack of economic interest,
On anoher matter I am teaching a course on Islam this weekend at Bosch.
Two of my students are muslim one from the Lebanon . He just gave me a
beautiful prayer stick with all the names of God on.
Kindest regards
Derek Cockshut
>From: banani@ucla.edu (Amin Banani)
>To: Kkonline@aol.com
>
>Dear Kathy,
>Please post this on Talisman for me, attention Burl/Derek/Juan, that
the
>references to "Irene, the POM POM girl" at UCLA have been totally
>misunderstood. Juan, while at UCLA and probably to this day, has been
>travelling on a spiritual journey. POM is simply the "code" for "path
of
>mystics." Why the repetition of POM (+ POM), you ask? As all
economists
>know, everything is cyclical, including mysticism apparently. Since
I'm a
>sociologist/urban planner (thank God), I could be wrong here but,
then, I
>NEVER actually met Irene.
>Love,
>Sheila Banani
>
>
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: banani@ucla.edu (Amin Banani)
To: Kkonline@aol.com
Date: 96-01-27 16:10:56 EST
Dear Kathy,
Please post this on Talisman for me, attention Burl/Derek/Juan, that
the
references to "Irene, the POM POM girl" at UCLA have been totally
misunderstood. Juan, while at UCLA and probably to this day, has been
travelling on a spiritual journey. POM is simply the "code" for "path
of
mystics." Why the repetition of POM (+ POM), you ask? As all
economists
know, everything is cyclical, including mysticism apparently. Since
I'm a
sociologist/urban planner (thank God), I could be wrong here but, then,
I
NEVER actually met Irene.
Love,
Sheila Banani
>S-
>One could find oneself ILL if one read too much of this at one time!
>kk
>
>---------------------
>Forwarded message:
>From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT)
>Sender: owner-talisman@indiana.edu
>To: talisman@indiana.edu
>Date: 96-01-25 03:46:04 EST
>
>---- Begin Forwarded Message
>+OK
>Return-Path:
>Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu by ix5.ix.netcom.com
>(8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
> id KAA10359; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 10:28:24 -0800
>Received: (from daemon@localhost) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu
>(8.7.3/8.7.3/1.10IUPO) id NAA11360 for talisman-outgoing; Wed, 24 Ja
>Subject: Re: jejeune farmers and intellectuals
>Sender: owner-talisman@indiana.edu
>Precedence: bulk
>
> John Walbridge says:
>
>Juan used to use "majoritarian" and "irenic" at least once in each
>paper he
>wrote, but I broke him of it.
>
> Burl replies:
>
> When Juan was going to UCLA, he dated a majorette named Irene and he
>never
>got over her, despite his best efforts. (she was a most resistant lass
>of
>moral rectitude).
>
>Burl
>(I believe it was Shiela Banani who told me that Juan still has
Irene's
>pom-poms stashed away in a closet as a meaningful Irenic majoretorian
>momento)
> Derek replies
>My dear Burl
>The sorry story gets even worse, she actually was as I recall an
>Economics major minoring in Pom Pom varitions on intellectual
>radicalism. This is why Juan has such a bias against Economists you
say
>Econo and all those sad memories of unfulfilled young love returns .
>You would say based on that scoundrel Haines it caused blubbering in
>LA, that sounds like a film title to me. Naturally I am not as rude as
>you Burl so I would not insult our good friend Juan like you would by
>mentioning such things , however once Linda finds out what Juan did to
>Irene heaven help the poor chap.Anyway back to Juan's young love , as
>the story has been relayed to me through secret dark and forbidden
>sources. The fair and chaste Irene fled to England and got her PHD in
>Economics developing a formula of using POM POMs to create a chasity
>belt of moral development in the field of economic studies to reduce
>the emission level of graph paper production. She obtained her
>doctorate at LSE and still teaches there every Friday to the delight
of
>all her students. The rest of her time she advises the EEC and the
>Russian Federation on the economic impact of producing eggs without
>their yolks. It is thought she may be granted a Nobel peace prize for
>this breakthrough work. Who said Economists were boring and immoral,
>Irene is an example to us of one who refused to be swayed by such
>things as Arabic grammar and Plato's Slave Republic . she is just as
>sweet and virginal as the day Juan first pursued her as all Economists
>are , we are the misunderstood aspect of humanity. When is the baha'i
>community going to start Adam Smith Day that Burl is the question of
>the day nay decade.
>Kindest Regards
>your best friend Derek
>
>*******************************************************
> MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
>Unlimited!
>********************************************************
Sheila Banani
2320 Alta Avenue, Santa Monica, California 90402
Tel (310) 394-5449
Fax (310) 394-6167
E-Mail: Banani@UCLA.Edu (Sheila)
=END=
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 17:15:51 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Talisman
Subject: E.G. Browne
In Balyuzi's book "EGB and the Baha'i Faith" on p. 57, he quotes
Baha'u'llah as saying:
"Praise be to God that thou has attained! . . . Thou
hast come to see a prisoner and an exile . . . We desire
but the good of the world and the happiness of the nations;
yet they deem us a stirrer up of strife and sedition
worthy of bondage and banishment . . ."
The quote continues, with ellipses after nearly every sentence. Do any
of the British Baha'i researchers know if Browne's original notes are
extant, and if these ellipses appear in them as well as in his published
record of his interviews with Baha'u'llah?
=END=
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 96 14:14 GMT+1300
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Alison & Steve Marshall
Subject: RE: From Birkland
First, I'd like to applaud Counsellor Steve Birkland for being a part of
Talisman and engaging with the group. He is courageously taking on a very
challenging role, and despite any disagreements I may have with what he
says, I respect him enormously for taking part.
There are a couple of points Steve/Counsellor Birkland makes:
1. ''I have become aware of the presence on Talisman of one of the
National Directors of a group of Covenant-breakers.... he is
part of a body bent on undermining the unity of the Baha'i
Faith. This creates a serious concern for Baha'i participants
on the list in the light of the explicit Baha'i Teachings on
the Covenant.''
The issue here, as I understand it, is about associating with
Covenant-breakers.
I agree with Juan - if this is a problem, then it's a problem
for a number of non-exclusive Baha'i-related lists. What I've
suggested in a private email to Steve Birkland is that he
provide Talisman with the name and email address of the
person he has concerns about. Then those of us who wish to
filter that person's messages out of their email can do so.
Of course, Steve may not have his email address.
2. ''The fact that various statements made on Talisman challenge or
undermine the Covenant is serious in itself, but is doubly so
in the presence of Covenant-breakers or their supporters, since
such statements provide ammunition with which they could further
their efforts to subvert the very unity of the Baha'i Faith that
the Covenant was established to preserve.''
I'd like to see Ahang's request for clarification answered: in
what capacity is Steve/Counsellor Birkland speaking here? Which
messages/messengers are challenging or undermining the Covenant,
and why? Having been a publisher of an independent Baha'i
magazine for three painful years, I am unable and unwilling to
re-play the game of self-censorship and second-guessing as to
what will be acceptable.
ka kite ano,
Steve Marshall
--------------------------------------------------------------
Alison and Steve Marshall
Email: forumbahai@es.co.nz
90 Blacks Road, Opoho, Dunedin/Otepoti, Aotearoa/New Zealand
--------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
From: Dave10018@aol.com
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 17:50:38 -0500
To: margreet@margreet.seanet.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Smart's (trust me)
In a message dated 96-01-24 03:32:29 EST, you write:
> Rather than take off to
>tim-buck-two of some odyssey of the Writing we don't yet have translated...
>Write a "study guide/tech manual" of what we do have, and ways to study it
>to assist us raise the standard. IOW... grab the attention of the millions
>rather than the "100's"
Very good, but we also need material to the level of the "100's" if we want
there to be "100's"more of them. Also for the "1000s" who struggle with
issues of interest to the "100's" this is not "elitism" but responding to
our own needs and the needs of humanity,both.
dave taylor
=END=
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 17:36:08 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Megha Shyam
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Re; Helen Bishop
On Sat, 27 Jan 1996, Megha Shyam wrote:
> Her estate became the vehicle for the purchase of the Baha'i Center in
> Portland a few years ago.
A suggestion: Whenever you find yourself in front of your insurance
agent, or your banker, or broker, or personnel officer at work; and you
are naming the death beneficiary of your insurance / bank account / CD /
brokerage account // retirement plan . . .
name the NSA as a partial beneficiary or a contingent beneficiary. Then
if you get called home unexpectedly, you may have given more to the Fund
at the time of your death, than everything you gave during your lifetime.
Please note: Even if you do not have a will, you can do these things, as
they often pass to beneficiaries outside of your will, and despite what
your will says; or if you do not have a will.
=END=
From: Dave10018@aol.com
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 17:50:46 -0500
To: mfoster@tyrell.net, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Homosexuality/Conscience
In a message dated 96-01-24 03:39:35 EST, mfoster@tyrell.net (Mark A. Foster)
writes:
>
> Obviously, I agree with you that national and local assemblies do
>not necessarily know what is right and wrong. What I was saying is that
>only the institutions have the right to determine, through application
>of Baha'i principles and ordinances, whether someone should be regarded
>as having committed a wrong and what, if any, penalties should be
>attached. As individuals, we have the duty to be free of judgmentalism
>(while, at the same time, being discerning in our associations with
>others). As we know, the Guardian was always cautioning the believers
>not to go around playing assembly to one another.
>
We are in complete agreement here! Well put!
dave taylor
=END=
From: Dave10018@aol.com
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 17:50:50 -0500
To: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: homosexuality again
In a message dated 96-01-24 03:59:50 EST, LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
writes:
>I thank Jackson for taking the time to post his interesting statement on
>variations in family life and sexual behavior. While I agree Dave that he
is
>not attacking the Aqdas's position, he is making it clear that the world is
>not
>divided neatly into our categories of heterosexual and homosexual.
>Baha'u'llah
>was a Prophet of God - not an anthropologist or a cataloguer of cultural
>traits. I believe that he wanted us to be chaste. But if the Baha'i Faith
>is
>going to be truly universal, we do need to be open to a whole world of
>differences. Otherwise, we will just be a very narrow little cult.
>
>
Yes, Linda! I think this is very much what I said, that the Prophets of God,
including the most recent One, cannot fairly or rationally be construed as
being concerned with "family values" as that term is presently understood in
the U.S. of A.
dave taylor
=END=
From: PayamA@aol.com
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 17:49:40 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: CB
Dear Friends,
The fact that there is a Covenant breaker on Talisman should not come as a
surprise to anyone. What is a surprise is that there is only one. It was
bound to happen, but at least we have not started an open dialogue with him.
That is not true of other lists. On at least two (srb and Baha'i religion
on AOL) cyberspace discussions there have been, and continue to be, major
back and forth with CBs.
Taking off the list a known CB will not mean that there aren't others. The
membership list does not reveal names and affiliations. One can try
fingering an address, but that's not always successful. By the way is it
against the Baha'i law to finger a Covenant breaker? ; )
Payam
Here is a sample from AOL (WARNING the following is by a CB!)
To: talisman
Subject: Arabic (or Persian?) Question
Dear learned Talismanians, could some kind soul tell me the original verb
used, and in which language, for "offer up" in the following quote: "If
Thou smellest from any one the smell of the love of Thy Lord, offer up
Thyself for him, for We have created Thee to this end, and have
covenanted with Thee, from time immemorial, and in the presence of the
congregation of Our well-favored ones, for this very purpose." It is from
Gleanings, bottom of page 283.
Usually, the verb seems to be used in Baha'u'llah's writings in the sense
of "to give," as in "offer up thy life in the path of God." Here, however,
it seems as though Baha'u'llah might be telling the Maiden to "make
herself available sexually." ??
(My interests are not prurient; I'm writing a paper on mystic eroticism.)
;-)
Thanks so much. --Jonah
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jonah and Kari Winters
33 Endean Avenue / Toronto, Ontario / M4M-1W5 / (416) 461-3527
=END=
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 96 03:42:54 UT
From: "Hannah E. Reinstein"
To: talisman@indiana.edu, "Megha Shyam"
Subject: Ageless Personalities [Was: Helen Bishop]
Who is Helen Bishop, according to Hannah:
She was the person asked by the Guardian to write the introduction to his
translation of the Kitab-i-Iqan. It's likely that's where some of you first
saw her name.
When my family moved to Oregon in 1977 we used to attend firesides in Lake
Oswego which Helen often frequented. Her mind was extraordinary and her talks
completely enchanting. She would speak about Reed College as it was when it
was founded about 80 years ago as if it were yesterday. The delight that she
conveyed to us was sweet, youthful, and touching. Even our little two-year-old
son was completely mesmerized by her. Personally, I was too intimidated by her
presence to ever utter a word.
When I first became a Baha'i I knew another older Baha'i in California named
Mamie Seto. She lived in Burlingame at that time. Her mind was so bright and
fresh and her energy so vital that I always assumed that she was in her 60's.
I was amazed to discover after she passed on to the Kingdom that she was in
her mid-90's.
I now believe that such persons demonstrate the power of the love of
Baha'u'llah in inexplicable and wondrous ways. I've only seen auras around
people about a half-dozen times in my life <>. I actually saw--or imagined--auras around both of these gifted
women.
Peace,
The Artist Formerly Known As Cary
==================
"'Where do you get your ideas?' has always been the question I'm most
confronted with . . . I'm afraid the answer is much more mundane: I don't know
where my ideas come from. I will admit, however, that one key ingredient is
caffeine." -- Gary Larson (FarSide)
----------
From: owner-talisman@indiana.edu on behalf of Megha Shyam
Sent: Saturday, 27 January, 1996 11:28 AM
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re; Helen Bishop
What was Helen like? She was an insomniac, liked to give firesides
late into the evenings over lots of tea. She had incredible memory of
the writings and could quote extensively from the Writings long and
very long passages. Her active mind was very inquisitive and challenged
you all the time. She is sorely missed.
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 20:40:03 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: we are being watched
I fully understand the concern of Counsellor Birkland, and perhaps other
institutions of the Faith, upon learning that there is a Covenant-breaker who
is subscribed to Talisman. It is troubling, since one can easily imagine
some bits of the discussion on Talisman being taken out of context and used
for purposes which are contrary to the principles of the Faith. However, I
do not see that there is a great deal that we can do about it.
First of all, even if the person were to be thrown off the list, he/she
could always resubscribe to Talisman under a different screen name or even
anonamously. This is not difficult. Or he could have a friend subscribe for
him. Etc. There is really no way to keep anyone off a list like Talisman,
if he is determined to stay.
Second, I think that we all know that Talisman is a project sponsored by
Indiana University and paid for by the good people of the state of Indiana.
If John Walbridge were to throw someone out of this project on purely
religious grounds, I would suppose that he would be in deep trouble with the
state. It is clearly illegal, and I am sure that both John and the
university could be sued over something like that.
After all, this is not a new situation. Covenant-breakers have
contributed to a number of Baha'i lists on the internet, including
soc.rel.bahai and others. I do not believe that there is any way to stop
them. It is probably best just to ignore their presence and their postings,
and go on about our business. I do not see why Covenant-breakers or other
enemies of the Faith should be allowed to set our agenda for us, or be
allowed to disrupt, or even momentarily disturb our discussions among
ourselves.
So, whoever the kook is, until his actions become disruptive, I propose
we just ignore him. As Juan says, maybe he will learn something.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: mfoster@tyrell.net
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Continental Counselors
> Isn't it true
> that the Continental Boards of Counselors have a higher rank than the
> National Spiritual Assemblies?
Mark -
We-e-e-ll?
The Counselors and the National Assemblies are both members of autonomous
arms of the administration. National Assemblies out-rank local Assemblies,
and Counselors out-rank Aux Brd members; but within their areas of
responsibility, Natinal Assemblies are subject to the Counselors and
Counselors to the National Assembly. It's almost like trying to decide if
Roma apples are better than Red Delicious; it depends on whether you are
making pie or fruit salad.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 02:14:57 -0700
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: Re: Top Ten CD's
Hey Phil:
No fair! C.D.s didn't replace vinyl until my kids were almost in jr.
High. How about just "disks".
1. My all time favourite - a translucent red 78 r.p.m. record, the color of
which so intrigued me that I played it over and over on our silvertone
phonograph untill it drove my poor parents up the wall and they bought me
another one, "I've got a Lovely Bunch of Conconuts", which I didn't like
as much because it was opaque and black. I still see some music as
translucent reds, greens blues and yellows of some of those old disks. By
the way, the disk was "Zip Goes the Rocket Ship (up to the moon / Hang on
little John we'll be there soon)". I was 3 or 4.
2. Joaquin Rodrigo's "Concierto de Aranjuez - Fantasia Para un Gentilhombre"
which I never tire of and which I have told my family in the event of my
untimely demise I want played at my funeral, preferably by some of our
musician friends, accompanied by a video I've prepared for such an
occurance, of scenes from the Bay of Fundy, the Mountains of South western
Alberta & Eagles flying against a clear blue sky - and the aroma of sweet
grass and cedar.
3. I'm an incurable and unrepentant fan of Bob Dylan - particularly his
alblum "Bringing it all Back Home", even though all the other music from
that era has lost it's appeal to me.
4. Vivaldi's Four Seasons - Especially perfomed by Nigel Kennedy - one of
the few CD's I do have - or anything else by Nigel.
5. "Music From the Maritimes" an ecletic mix of Atlantic Canada Folk music
(sans Stompin' Tom Connors)
6. "Grace Under Pressure" by Three Sheets to the Wind. Their song, "Wood
Smoke and Oranges" reminds me of a morning canoeing from Lepreau to Barnaby
Head with a haunting mist rising from the cove, the call of seabirds, the
gentle swells slapping on the shore and a deep soothing sense of mystery.
7. Thelonious Monk with John Coltraine - but only when I'm in a certain
mood - they don't induce it - same goes for Charlie Parker and Dizzy
Gillespie - there are times when I can listen to that crowd all day. Lot's
of brilliant colors but no scent.
8. Any good rousing Metis or Acadian fiddle music anytime
9. Gordon Lightfoot's "Summertime Dream"
10. a C.D. of ocean sounds that I put on most nights to help me go to sleep.
Gord.
=END=
From: l.droege@genie.geis.com
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 96 02:47:00 UTC 0000
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re 10 books sherman's comments
Derek & Sherman, I agree that the survey is biased against cats,
although perhaps not due to a dearth of books (there is, after all,
the _Cat Lover's Cookbook_, which describes, among other things, how
to cut meat into "kitty-bite-sized" portions prior to preparing, say,
beef stroganoff). I think it has more to do with the poor ergonomic
design of computer keyboards which makes it difficult for felines to
directly express their opinions (although Spook, in a burst of
creativity, was able to find an undocumented shortcut for color-cycling
in my "Paint" program; I believe it was something like: option-control-
tab-escape-command-shift-enter while mom is clicking the mouse button).
Spook, Pipsqueak and Mosi-oa-Tunya are anxiously awaiting the next
Sherman & Shadow installment, BTW.
Leigh
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Re: sex and values
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 04:06:52 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Hi, Philip -
You wrote:
B >But all of this got started because I had said that I have difficulty
B >with the Baha'i judgment that homosexual behavior is immoral when I
B >see it being conducted ethically.
Yes. Thank you for reminding me about the original context of the
discussion.
It seems to me that, by ethical, you mean the fact that many gay
women and men live in stable monogamous relationships, and that some of
these couples raise children. I agree that people should be commended
for all the good which they express. As individuals, I think that all we
should *focus on* is the good (not that we should be naive and blind
ourselves to all aspects of a situation).
Morality is not one-dimensional. It is possible to struggle with one
aspect of Baha'i morality and be exemplary in another. Is that what you
are referring to? I don't think that there is any reason to be black and
white about it. One can recognize the good in all souls. In fact, that
is how we were counseled to behave in our relations with one another by
the Master. Certainly, we all fall short of the high standards in the
Teachings in one way or another. If not, there would be no reason for
the ethical, or moral, prescriptions of the Prophet.
B >I know what the Guardian said about it. I just can't see it for
B >myself and I'm really glad I don't have to struggle with it in a more
B >immediate sense.
Yes. But we all have problems of one sort or another. Unfortunately,
in many societies, some of these are erroneously made to seem worse than
others. But that is, IMHO, a function of our socialization and not of
the divine Standard.
To the Light,
Mark (Foster)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion * Full-Time College Faculty *
*Past (1995) Pres., Kansas Sociological Society * Owner, Baha'i Studies List *
*Director, Reality Sciences Institute * Co-Moderator, Another Baha'i List *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Staff, 3 CompuServe Religion Fora, incl. Baha'i Section Leader (72642,3105) *
*Chief Baha'i Chat Host, America Online (TFPMark) * mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us *
*Sysop, Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1) * mfoster@tyrell.net *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The Prophets of God have been the Servants of Reality; Their
Teachings constitute the science of reality." - `Abdu'l-Baha
"The sciences of today are bridges to reality; if then they lead not
to reality, naught remains but fruitless illusion." - `Abdu'l-Baha
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 03:01:19 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Top Ten CD's
Another toughy!
1) The Memory of Trees - Enya
2) The Wall - Pink Floyd
3) Wish you Were Here - Pink Floyd
4) Dark Side of the Moon - Pink Floyd
5) Passion (Soundtrack Album to the _Last Temptation of Christ_) - Peter
Gabriel
6) Abbey Road - The Beatles
7) The Doors (their 1st album) - The Doors
8) Ten - Pearl Jam
9) Procul Harem - Procul Harem (my all time favorite song is _A Whiter
Shade of Pale_)
10) Led Zeppelin - Led Zeppelin (best rock song ever still remains
_Stairway to Heaven_)
Nima
=END=
From: l.droege@genie.geis.com
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 96 02:13:00 UTC 0000
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: Top 10 CD's
OK, why not...
Enya: anything
Linda Ronstadt: most anything but I'm not wild about the Mariachi music.
Rocio Jurado: Mis Mejores Canciones
Orff: Carmina Burana (any orchestra)
Anne Dudley & Jaz Coleman: Songs from the Victorious City
J.S. Bach: anything but especially "Toccatta & Fugue in D Minor"
(preferably on cathedral organ)
Beatles (can't help it-- grew up with them)
Fairuz (Feyrouz): anything
Fats Waller (I've got him on 78's!)
Tchaikovsky
Handel: Messiah (for obvious reasons-- it gives me chills)
...and I could go on... and on... and on...
Leigh
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 96 15:52:01 PST
Subject: Re: sex and values
To: talisman@indiana.edu, "Mark A. Foster"
On Sat, 27 Jan 1996 13:59:19 -0600 (CST) Mark A. Foster wrote:
>To: talisman@indiana.edu
>
>
>Hi, Philip -
>
Dear Mark,
You wrote how morality and ethics were essentially the same, how
manifestations come with each time to help us seem more clearly the
application of those timeless principles to the current age, and how
with each revelation the application becomes broader and more
penetrating.
But all of this got started because I had said that I have difficulty
with the Baha'i judgment that homosexual behavior is immoral when I
see it being conducted ethically.
I know what the Guardian said about it. I just can't see it for
myself and I'm really glad I don't have to struggle with it in a more
immediate sense.
Thanks
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/27/96
Time: 15:52:02
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 23:12:18 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: LIQA
Can someone assist Naomi with this one??? Send it to me, and I can forward
it back to her if you like. thanks
>
>HELP PLEASE! The word 'Liqa' which translated by Shoghi Effendi means
>"attainment unto the Divine Presence" was revealed by Baha'u'llah in a
>tablet called RASHH-I-AMA. (This tablet has not yet been translated but
>Shoghi Effendi has used it elsewhere either in his own works or in a
>translation.) Would anyone know of where that might be?????? As this is
>for a paper due Monday it would really be appreciated if you could get back
>to me ASAP. THANKS :-)
>
--deleted address...
>Thank you all very much for your assistance.
>
>Warmest love, Naomi
>=================================
>
>Naomi Boyle-Kirshenbaum
>boylen@IslandNet.com
>****
>Basic Brass "Music to soothe the soul"
>
=END=
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 02:16:24 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand
To: belove@sover.net
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Top Ten CD's
What a lovely idea!
1. Anything Classical - especially Baroque (Pechalbel, Vivaldi, Bach) and
Beethoven
2. The Cure
3. 10,000 Maniacs - MTV Unplugged
4. The Best of Gypsy Kings
5. Ottmar Liebert - Luna Negra and Nouveau Flamenco
6. Anything from Enya
7. Loreena McKennett - The Visit
8. ABBA: Greatest Hits
9. Bette Midler - Some People's Lives
10. Richard Marx
Cheshmak
=END=
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 02:22:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Jonah Winters
To: talisman
Subject: Music? Music!
I, too, am glad that these lists started. Now I know everyone a wee bit
better.
1) Shostakovich, Symphony # 14. Shostakovich at his most forward.
2) Gorecki, Symphony # 3. Maudlin? Beautiful and haunting? Well, both.
3) Anything by Sarah McLachlan. Canadian "pop" singer. Heartfelt and
sincere.
4) Anything by Laurie Anderson.
5) Carl Stalling Project. Orchestral music that formed the soundtracks of
the original Warner Brothers Cartoons. Next time you see a Bugs Bunny or
Tweety Bird or Roadrunner cartoon, listen to the music closely.
6) Songs of the Ancient Beauty. Actually, this should be # 1. Have you
not heard it? By far the most artistically elevated and professionally
produced Baha'i music recording yet. A capella songs, English and Persian.
7) Dead Can Dance. Medieval "classical" music done by a modern
alternative-rock band. Makes for a wonderful combination.
8) Alfred Schnittke. Classical music for 1990 sensibilities, i.e. full
modernism with no loss of melody, a truly rare and inspiring gift.
Inheritor of the Second Viennese School (Stockhausen, Adorno, Boulez, and
Nono) without the modernist angst.
9) Tom Waits. My life would be much less fulfilled without Tom.
10) Diamanda Galas. If you have never heard Galas, then explanations will
be fruitless. I speak with some assuredness when I say that there never
has been a musician like Galas. Imagine Meredith Monk, Laurie Anderson,
John Adams, and Anthrax rolled together with Charles Baudelaire and the
Old Testament, and use this combination to express the undirected anger
of an artistic catharsis for one with AIDS. Better than that I can not
explain.
- ) In another category is classical guitar music. As a player of the
instrument, I must just list the category as a whole and stop there.
Has anyone ever heard of any of these?
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jonah and Kari Winters
33 Endean Avenue / Toronto, Ontario / M4M-1W5 / (416) 461-3527
=END=
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 02:22:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: MOVIE!
Dear Friends, may i recommend you consider going to the movie MR.
HOLLAND'S OPUS. It was truly one of the most touching and moving movies i
have seen. Truly one of those feel good, learn something type of movies.
Great as a family film.
Regards,
Cheshmak Farhoumand
"The wrong in this world continues to exist because people talk only of
their ideals but do not strive to put them into practice."
Abdu'l Baha
=END=
From: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 96 23:08:50 -0600 (CST)
Subject: TOP TEN CD'S
To: talisman@indiana.edu
My list would include:
1. all classical Indian sarod music by Ali Akbar Khan
2. Craig Chaquico, "Acoustic Planet" and "Acoustic Highway"
3. All music by Ottmar Liebert
4. All music by the Gypsy Kings
5. All music by Bruce Cockburn
6. Mozart, especially his piano concertos
7. Winton Marsalis, Baroque Music for Trumpet
8. European Medieval and Renaissance music
9. Celtic Harp, especially the CD "Grey Eyed Morn"
10. Japnese Melodies for Flute and Harp, Jean Pierre Rampal
Warmest greetings, Dann May, Philosophy, OK City Univ.
---
* WR 1.32 # 669 * The path to holiness lies in questioning everything. Peck
=END=
From: Dave10018@aol.com
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 02:38:04 -0500
To: Alethinos@aol.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Natural law and its distortions . . .
In a message dated 96-01-26 08:19:49 EST, Alethinos@aol.com writes:
> If we read carefully the
>Guardian we see that he is acknowledging that there are ancient mental
>*templates* laid down that we follow.
Oh, really?!
Where does he do that?
sceptically yours,
david taylor
=END=
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 21:34:20 -0800
From: derekmc@IX.NETCOM.COM (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Daystar Ranch Project
To: talisman@indiana.edu
---- Begin Forwarded Message
Return-Path:
<<@GSB-YEN.STANFORD.EDU,@franc.ucdavis.edu:xpnaraghi@boris.ucdavis.edu>>
Received: from GSB-YEN.STANFORD.EDU by ix11.ix.netcom.com
(8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
Dear Talismanians
As we seem to be depressing ourselves over CB's < currant buns > I
thought this project being created by some Baha'is was worthy of
attention of all.
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut)
Subject: Daystar Ranch Project
Status: U
>From: DAYSTAR19@aol.com
>Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 13:49:43 -0500
>To: xpnaraghi@ucdavis.edu
>
>
>DayStar Ranch
> " A beautiful place to play...with horses"
>
> 7672 Olivas Lane
>Vacaville,California 95688
>707-452-8953 fax452-8665 E-mail
>>DayStar19@aol.com
>
>
>
> When I was six I felt myself extremely blessed because lived
in
>the country, in the mountains of San Diego county wheremy father was a
>state park ranger, and I had horses for friends.My parents both loved
me
>and my mom was a full time mom who loved her job. I knew even then
that I
>was one of the "lucky"
>kids who had it all. I believed that there was a reason that I had
been
>given these blessings, a mission came with it.Now it's 40years later
and I
>believe I know what that mission is.
>
> I had a nurturing environment and grew up believing in myself.
>What I gained saw me through the hardships of my own family's
subsequent
>breakup and my
>fathers illness, without victimizing me or undermining my
determination to
>make a positive contribution to the advancement of life on this
planet.
>
> My careers as a nurse and as a flight instructor have both
been
>outlets to my lifelong career as a teacher, which better describes my
>work. I enjoy, no,
>love teaching. My current job in the Neonatal Intensive Care Unit
allows me
>to teach every day. My favorite part is teaching parenting skills. I
am
>mother to 6,(the hardest job I've ever loved) and now I am home
schooling my
>two youngest children aged 4 and 7; the other four are adults.
> I have discovered an amazing connection between raising and
>training horses and growing into effective parenting. A "horse-crazy"
>youth is motivated by love and dreams of connecting with a partner
that is
>both powerful and
>patient. The potential for friendship with a horse leads a young
person into
>a willingness to sacrifice comfort and time, in order to connect with
the
>heart of a horse. This is a great place to acquire future parenting
skills
>while having a great time!
> Here at Daystar Ranch, we are raising horses with the dream of
>putting each horse with a child of their own in a nurturing place,
where
>they can grow
>into their full potential. Today, I own 9 horses and await the birth
of two
>more this spring. They have been with me for 4 years or were born to
us for
>this purpose, and are very people-oriented and absolutely trstworthy
in their
>attitudes. This year they are ready to get their kids, to become both
>teachers and students for them.
> Now I am looking for some assistance to bring this project to
fruition.
>Since I am not experienced in business, I am at a loss at completing
the
>structure for this project,and so am seeking out an associate with
this type
>of knowledge. Here is where we are now:
>
>
>A. Location:
> We currently are located on a five acre property 7 miles north
of
>Vacaville, California. We are 16 miles north of Travis AFB, a 25
minute
>drive from the ranch. We have an option to purchase this place for
$280K
>but must exercise it within the next two months and close on it by
June
>30, 1996. The property has a well laid out 2300 sf single story house
with
>a 360 degree view of the rolling hills in the rural neighborhood. We
have
>a large inground pool, 4
>stall horse barn with paddocks and pasture, a chicken house that is
home to a
>dozen laying hens,and an organic garden that is currently 7000 sf and
has a
>market for all its chemical-free produce. The property shares a
driveway with
>one other 5 acre ranchette, which is also for sale. Our property is
set back
>behind the other and gives a sense of seclusion and security. We would
very
>much like to purchase both of the ranches on this road to be able to
increase
>our ability to offer more programs and have access to more land, as
well as
>upgrade the existing dirt and gravel driveway. Without the purchase of
both
>places, access over the shared driveway can become a problem as
traffic
>increases. The driveway connects with Olivas Lane and all roads from
there to
>town are 2-lane and paved. The second property is listed for $277K and
needs
>approximately $16K worth of repairs. Both property prices are now at
an
>all-time low for this area and are poised to increase in value
dramatically
>over the next 5 years. The second property has a 3000 sf house and a
large
>inground pool as well as some outbuildings,pastures and a satelite
dish.
>
>B. The Projects:
> 1. Horse Leasing/Timeshare:
> This is an old concept that has been improved upon lately by
more
>and more equestrian lovers. Basically, the project will allow horse
>ownership on a
>regular but less-than-full time basis. Many families have neither the
place,
>equipment, time or knowledge needed for ownership, but could
accomodate a
>shared ownership that gives them full use of a horse for a set number
of days
>per week, as well as training, friendships,and showing opportunities
with the
>support of our ranch staff. This concept has met with great enthusiasm
and
>has been shown to be very rewarding financially, with all profits
applied to
>improving and expanding the project itself by upgrading the
facilities,
>adding to the herd and acquiring both riding and driving equipment.
> 2. The Learning Center:
> This is envisioned as a place that will make it easier for
families to
>function and for children to grow into adults who are both loving and
>knowledgable. As children they will learn by experience;
virtues,skills,
>service and a love of learning and exploring with creativity. This
project
>has several aspects:
>1. A cooperative school for kids age 5 to 15, with groups of children
with
>similar interests grouped together for learning facilitated by an
>enthusiastic adult for each subject, with no more than 12 students per
adult.
>Hours of attendance can be arranged to suit the needs of each childs
family
>and will require a high degree of self-starting and independent
learning from
>each child.Learning will be experiental and applied as it is taught to
>achieve maximum retention. Tutoring will also be available and will
>incoporate the use of computers, videos and production projects. Older
>students will apply their knowledge by creating community service
projects,
>both on the ranch and in their own towns.
>2. An after-hours childcare program that will allow parents a place
where
>their children can come after school or on week-ends. The children
will have
>access to recreational activities,and other learning materials;such as
the
>horses, garden, swimming, tutoring,cooperative sports, construction
projects
>and technology utilization. Limited overnight care can also be
accomodated.
>3.An adult learning and social center. The layout of this house easily
allows
>for an almost equal separation of living space, front rooms and back
rooms,
>where evening adult activities can take place simultaneously with the
>childrens evening activities. Adults can hold study classes or social
events
>of almost any kind every evening and on week-end days according to the
season
>of the year. These programs have been offered to the Local Spiritual
Assembly
>to plan and support if they so desire.
>4. These activities will facilitated by the service of a family van
that will
>pick up students at daycare or schools and bring them to the ranch or
even to
>other designated places, until the parents can come for them. This
will
>relieve the stress many parents who must work shifts when there is no
other
>such assistance available to transport safely the children from one
place to
>another.This service can be created as a stand-alone business that
will serve
>our needs through a contractual arrangement.The van services can also
serve
>the needs of field trips for the students.
>
> Is this an ambitious project? Yes of course it is, but the
>connections make it actually easier by meeting several needs of
families
>all at once, rather
>than the usual fragmentation found in other projects that limit its
approach
>to one area only. The best part of it is that it is both a social and
an
>economic development project from the outset. The social needs are the
>driving force, the power of community cooperation will create the
economic
>viability of the entire plan and will allow for future expansion, as
well as
>serve as a model for other communities to duplicate.
>
>Current Issues:
>1. Financial:
> Raising capital to secure the property (or properties) and
making the
>improvements. Funding is also needed to acquire the first van, or
enable the
>service to start-up as a separate business. Fees for incorporation,
and use
>permits. Total estimated needed:
> Real estate will need $30K to $60K to secure one or both
properties.
>Incorporation and use permits will cost another $5K.
> Van Purchase will be about $20K or at least enough for a down
>payment, and financing a payment plan.
> Horses and equipment are already made available to the
>project but could benefit by a cash injection of whatever amount could
be
>raised, to improve existing facilities and equipment for driving
horse-drawn
>carts, or purchasing a few ponies. This can be done as the project
>progresses, but would benefit the program if available from the start.
> Funding for additional learning equipment; such as
>computers,software and musical imstruments.
>
>2. Structure:
> Perhaps most importantly, we need help to put the foundatiuon
on a
>secure footing; incorporation as either non-profit or for-profit; an
>accurate and completed business plan and consultation by professionals
to
>serve on a board of directors or other administrative body.
>
> We are actively and urgently seeking assistance from all
>interested people to get involved and assist us to make this dream a
>reality, ASAP. Please call us or write with your ideas,proposals and
>assistance, or better yet come on
>out and look the place over for yourself. We have horses to feed and
kids to
>love, so we are here most of every day and anxiously look forward to
hearing
>from you!
>
> Loving greetings,
>
> Kathy Rutan-Sprague
=END=
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 23:44:17 -0800
From: nabfares@ix.netcom.com (Azadeh Mohandessi-Fares & Nabil Fares )
Subject: Re: Arabic (or Persian?) Question
To: Jonah Winters
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Jonah,
Thank you for giving me a chance to include some of my thoughts towards
your question. I will try to address your questions in sequence:
1 I am not a learned Talismanian.
2 The original text that you are referring to is in the eloquent
language (Arabic).
3 The verb used in the original language "offer up Thyself for him"
means to sacrifice yourself as the "Divine Wind/Kamikaze" for the sake
of the lovers of God.
4 It seems to me that we connect the concept of offering up, with
what we personally value. So if we value the material things, we think
that the offering is materialistic. If we value life, we think that the
offering is by sacrificing our lives and so forth. In the Eastern
communities, the offering is Holistic, Synergistic. Offering is giving
to the level of poverty (please refer to the seventh valley of the
Seven Valleys). Offering is to sacrifice the material world completely.
to sacrifice life, job, career, love, family, and opportunity. This
concept could seem somewhat difficult to deal with, or to comprehend,
especially if we deal with it on the level of a partial giving, which
we tend to do all the time. We "give" with a measure and limit. We
"offer" with a measure and limit. We "sacrifice" with a measure and
limit. And this measure and limit is what we think is adequate and
competent. This is on the level of creation.
When you offer your self totally to God you live in Him (the VALLEY
OF TRUE POVERTY AND ABSOLUTE NOTHINGNESS. This station is the Dying
from self and the living in God), and here you disappear in God,"...so
that nothing will remain save the Friend".
So when the Blessed Beauty, Baha'u'llah, instructs the Maiden of
Heaven, to offer up Herself to the lovers of God, by the same token
that She has "the incorruptible vestures of Thy God", we again as
lovers of God, find the chance to reflect, through Her offering up
Herself for us, the grace and beauty of God. So Her offering is to
enhance our spiritual ecstasy for ever. This is on the level of
reality.
Baha'u'llah, in the same verse which you have mentioned,
reveals:"...offer up Thyself for him...". "For him" not "to him". You
can see the difference.
These are some of our thoughts regarding this Sacred Verse. Thank
you for your time.
Azadeh M-Fares
Nabil Fares
Jonah,
Thank you for giving me a chance to contribute to answering your
question.
1 I am not a learned Talismanian.
2 The original text that you are refering to is in Arabic
3 The verb used in the original language "offer up Thyself for him"
means to sacrifice yourself as the "Divine Wind/Kamikaze" for the sake
of the lovers of God.
4 It seems to me that we connect the concept of offering, with what
we personally value. So if we value the material things, we think that
the Offering is materialistic. If we value life, we think that the
offering is by sacrificying our lives and so forth. In the Eastern
communities, the offering is a Holistic thing. Offering is giving to
the level of poverty (please refer to the seventh valey of the Seven
Valleys). Offering is to sacrifice the material world completely. to
scacrifice life, job, carrer, love, family, and oppertunity. This
concept could seem somewhat difficult to deal with, or to comprehend,
especially if we deal with it on the level of a partial giving, which
we tend to do all the time. We "give" with a measure and limit. We
"offer" with a measure and limit. We "sacrifice" with a measure and
limit. And this measeure and limit is what we think is adaquate and
competent.
When you offer your self totally to God you live in Him (the VALLEY
OF TRUE POVERTY AND ABSOLUTE NOTHINGNESS. This station is the Dying
from self and the living in God), and here our character melts in the
character of God.
So when the Blessed Beauty, Baha'u'llah, instructs the Maiden of
Heaven, to Offer up herself to the lovers of God, by the same token,
that she has (the incorruptible vestures of Thy God), we again as
lovers of God, got an early chance and opportunity to melt in her and
reflect the beauty of God. So her offering is to enhance our spiritual
ecstassy for ever.
You wrote:
>
>
>Dear learned Talismanians, could some kind soul tell me the original
verb
>used, and in which language, for "offer up" in the following quote:
"If
>Thou smellest from any one the smell of the love of Thy Lord, offer up
>Thyself for him, for We have created Thee to this end, and have
>covenanted with Thee, from time immemorial, and in the presence of the
>congregation of Our well-favored ones, for this very purpose." It is
from
>Gleanings, bottom of page 283.
>
>Usually, the verb seems to be used in Baha'u'llah's writings in the
sense
>of "to give," as in "offer up thy life in the path of God." Here,
however,
>it seems as though Baha'u'llah might be telling the Maiden to "make
>herself available sexually." ??
>
>(My interests are not prurient; I'm writing a paper on mystic
eroticism.)
>
>;-)
>
>Thanks so much. --Jonah
>
>=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
>Jonah and Kari Winters
>33 Endean Avenue / Toronto, Ontario / M4M-1W5 / (416) 461-3527
>
>
>
=END=
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 23:47:55 +1300 (NZDT)
To: Sadra , Talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Top Ten CD's
Talismanistas,
Did I read somewhere that Nima as 23 or 24? Perhaps he's actually 20 years
older but can't remember -- which, along with the music selection, may
prove he really was there... Perhaps he ran with Burl in another lifetime,
in another dimension of the warp... Of course Burl won't remember either.
Come to think of it, neither would I.
seriously,
Robert.
=END=
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 02:30:09 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
Subject: Re: Books: A big Favor
Dear Arsalan and fellow Talismanians,
This list of books is a combination of both the most *loved* and the most
*important*
books I've read --- and in no particular order:
"Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand (which contains, in a 10 page monologue [in my
old
paperback buried in a box somewhere and 5 pages in the 35th anniversary
edition
hardback I just checked out at the library] the *best* analysis of money and
its true
worth to humanity that I have ever read ! It is in section two, chapter
two, or page
410 in the anniversary edition where Francisco d'Anconia is talking to Hank
Rearden. As I paged through looking for the statement on money I reread
parts of this old friend [as all the books on this list are] an am
filled with the urge to reread the whole epic book --- it has been
about 25 years since I read it but it still lives in
my mind, heart, and soul)
"The True Believer" by Eric Hoffer (if you want to analyses why you joined
the Faith,
or any other organization --- this is the *best* friend to take on that journey)
"The World Order of Baha'u'llah" by Shoghi Effendi (especially the
"Dispensation of
Baha'u'llah")
"The Advent of Divine Justice" by Shoghi Effendi (the manual for *revolution*)
"The Revelation of Baha'u'llah" by Adib Taherzadeh (volumes 1 through 4 and
I also
include "The Covenant of Baha'u'llah" as I feel this is really volume 5)
"Who Wrote the Dead Sea Scrolls?" by Norman Golb (Finally, freed from the
morass of deviant "scholarship" --- talk about an authoritarian arena,
though done in many subtle and some not so subtle ways --- we have
the most likely answers to the Scrolls authorship and importance)
Please, no flames from you scholars, my mama raised me to look for the
individuality in each person and not their labels --- there are good
white people and bad white people, good black people and bad black
people, good scholars and bad scholars.
"Thriving on Chaos" by Tom Peters (If you want to know how to run a business
in
today's chaotic environment --- this is the manual)
"The Little House" series of books by Laura Ingles Wilder (and I *don't*
mean this TV series --- I mean the autobiographies themselves --- 6 or 7 in all)
"The Ascent of Man" by Jacob Bronowski (There has been some discussion of
Natural Philosophy on Talisman lately --- Bronowski says in the forward:
"My ambition here has been the same as in my other books, whether
in literature or in science: to create a philosophy for the twentieth
century which shall be all of one piece. Like them, this series
presents a philosophy rather than a history, and a philosophy of
nature rather than of science. Its subject is a contemporary version of
what used to be called Natural Philosophy." Perhaps the most
meaningful and insightful part begins on page 364 where he focuses
on the Heisenberg Principle of Uncertainty, which he prefers to
call the Principle of Tolerance because, "In science or outside, we
are not uncertain; our knowledge in merely confined within a certain
tolerance." The word "tolerance" comes to full force and meaning when,
on page 375, we see Bronowski stand in and pick up a hand full of
black mud from the pond where the ashes from Auschwitz were flushed.
This is where people were turned into numbers --- not by science
--- as is the popular misconception.)
Two that *demand* to be together: "The Declaration of Independence" and the
"Constitution of the United States" and since they are short let's add in
the
"Federalist Papers" (in my high school junior year American History class we
had to understand and memorize the Constitution and write it from memory to
pass --- this was also the best class in high school because we were
challenged
constantly --- you could take a multiple guess test but even if you got 100% the
best grade you could receive was a *C* --- to get an *A* or *B* you had to
take an
essay exam --- and then you could still fail. Question --- In today's high
schools how many could understand and wrote the Constitution, take essay
exams, or even read either?)
"The Mind Parasites" by Colin Wilson (a great science fiction book with the
added
advantage of being a superb dissertation on existentialism)
I know, that makes more than 10 --- but who said I could count?
Doug Myers
nightbrd@hubboldt1.com
"Nothing survives but the way we live our lives." JB
=END=
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 22:12:26 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: carmen@ucla.edu (Carmen Mathenge)
Subject: Re: favorite books
Dear Talisfolks,
Favorite books. There's no way I could possibly pick out ten. First of
all, I can't possibly leave out any of the Writings of the Central
Figures--how could I choose one over another? Although I do confess to a
special fondness for The Seven Valleys and Paris Talks.
So, aside from that, and a zillion from my childhood and early adult years
when I devoured all types of fiction, mostly romantic twaddle--well, I'll
list ten that I've especially enjoyed over the last few years:
1. The Revelation of Baha'u'llah (all four volumes), by Adib
Taherzadeh
2. The Purpose of Physical Reality, by John Hatcher
3. From the Auroral Darkness, by John Hatcher
4. To Move the World, by Gayle Morrison
5. From Copper to Gold, by Dorothy Freeman
6. Genesis: Spirituality in Recovery from Childhood Traumas,
by Julie Bowden & Herbert Gravitz
7. When Society Becomes an Addict, by Anne Wilson Schaef
8. Inner Work, by Robert Johnson
9. Embracing Our Selves, by Hal Stone and Sidra Winkelman
10. The Power of Your Other Hand, by Lucia Capaccione
11. Women Who Run with the Wolves, by Clarissa Pinkola Estes
I have to add, because I think it's an important book, although I can't say
I enjoyed it:
12. For Your Own Good, by Alice Miller, the seminal work that
led to some others I didn't enjoy but learned from, including:
13. Codependent No More, by Melodie Beattie, and
14. Bradshaw On: The Family and
15. Healing the Shame that Binds You, by John Bradshaw.
Oh and I did enjoy
16. Jeremy Taylor's When People Fly and Water Runs Uphill.
Uh-oh, I'm way over my quota! Now what? Am I gonna' be kicked out or
something?
Oh and I loved:
17. Pigs in Heaven, by Barbara Kingsolver
Well, I might as well make it an even 19 (or rather, an odd 19 :-D ):
18. Introduction to Sufi Doctrine, by Titus Burckhardt
(See I finally came up with one intellectual one--Theo Cope's
recommendation! Well, actually Alice Miller was pretty heavy wading.)
19. New and Selected Poems, Mary Oliver
Oh, and . . . no, I'd better stop at 19. (But I do like Tony Hillerman's
mysteries, and also Ellis Peters' Brother Cadfael books.) Gosh, I left out
Writing the Natural Way, by Gabrielle Lusser Rico, one of my very favorites
. . .ok, ok . . .
Best,
Carmen
99999999999999999999999999999999999999
Carmen Mathenge
Lawndale, California, USA
99999999999999999999999999999999999999
=END=
From: l.droege@genie.geis.com
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 96 13:40:00 UTC 0000
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: from Birkland 1/26
just my 2 cents:
Having met Steve Birkland I would tend to listen to his advice whether
he's speaking for himself or in an official capacity.
Besides which, he's right.
As a Counselor for Protection, it is his _duty_ to warn us of potential
dangers in what we are doing. We are being watched, and some of the
threads on Talisman _have_ been skirting the edge. Anybody who
doubts that should go back and reread the discussion about the UHJ vs.{
Conscience. There are a number of comments in that thread which, if
taken out of context, can be used as ammunition by eneIt has
nothing to do with the "intent" of the posters.
A related issue: Does anybody seriously think that "nobody@replay.com"
would be sending us that garbage if he/she didn't sense a
vulnerability somewhere?
Leigh
=END=
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 96 20:56:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Memories of Ashchi -- part 2
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
With your kind permission, like to begin gaining glimpses of the
events associated with the ministry of Baha'u'llah through the
memories of Aqa Husayn Ashchi -- a narrative that in a different
culture, would have perhaps been titled "The Gospel of Ashchi".
In early 1920's, Fadil-i Mazandarani (remember him?!) wrote to
the beloved Guardian suggesting systematic efforts be launched to
capture the recollection of those who were alive at the time of
Baha'u'llah. The beloved Guardian wholeheartedly approved this
idea and issued instructions that a number of faithful believers
who were around at the time of Baha'u'llah and had witnessed many
early episodes of the Cause to write down their recollection of
the events. However by then most of them were in advanced age
and at least some 30 years had passed since the time of
Baha'u'llah. So, the Guardian had a number of younger believers
to sit with these older ones and write down anything they could
remember. A simple, brilliant idea, vintage Shoghi Effendi!
One of the early believers suggested by Fadil-i Mazandarani for
such interviews was Aqa Husayn Ashchi who was living in the Holy
Land at the time and about 80 years old.
This is what Jinab-i Balyuzi says of him in the Preface to his
masterpiece, "Baha'u'llah: the King of Glory", p. vii
Aqa Husayn was the son of Aqa Muhammad Javad-i Kashani, a
Babi of early days. Orphaned, when a young boy, he was taken
to Baghdad, where he grew up in the household of Baha'u'llah,
eventually becoming His cook. For that reason he came to be
known as Ashchi, (Broth-maker).
When, in Dec 1924, Aqa Husayn-i Ashchi was at an advanced
age and on his death-bed, Shoghi Effendi, the Guardian of the
Faith, instructed Aqa Abdu'r-Rasul-i Mansur-i Kashani to sit
by his bedside and take down all that the dying man could
remember of the events of seven decades. It is a fascinating
story that Ashchi had to tell; and what is particularly
striking is the amazing rapport between the reminiscences of
an elderly man, very soon to dies and the narrative of Aqa
Riday-i Qannad.
A while ago, through the infinite kindness of a deeply-loved
friend whom I will do the honor of not identifying, I came to
benefit from this narrative (and please don't ask for copies as
due to its nature, I've sworn not to forward to anyone.)
In 1925, after Fadil-i Mazandarani had requested a copy of this
narrative from the Holy Land, a copy was sent to him for his
research and studies and he made excellent use of it in his
Zuhuru'l-Haqq series. He then gave the original copy to Iranian
National Baha'i Archives for safekeeping where in 1967
Muhammad-Ali Malik-Khusravi transcribed a copy for Badi` Mansour,
the son of Aqa Abdu'r-Rasul-i Mansur-i Kashani, the person who
had captured these recollections of Aqa Husayn Ashchi.
Are you following so far? Hang in there ...
Anyway, the present copy is 149 pages long and its in the hand of
Malik-Khusravi. The first two pages is a letter from a certain
Azizu'llah Bahadur dated 9 July 1925 addressed to Jinab-i Fadil-i
Mazandarani. A rough and quick translation follows and I've
added a couple of points to clarify in square brackets:
A while back you had recommended preparation of a history of
the Faith and now it has been approved [by the Guardian].
[This must be a reference to Zuhuru'l-Haqq project.] Last
year, instruction was issued for the late Aqa Husayn Ashchi,
who was a fellow-traveler with the household of Baha'u'llah,
to commit to paper any recollections of the events of Baghdad
and travels to Istanbul, Adirinih, and the Most Great Prison
[Akka]. Despite illness, he shared his memories with another
believer who wrote it all down and is enclosed herewith.
After your suggestion was received, the Guardian said
although the narrative of Aqa Husayn is not considered part
of history, it's a good idea to send you a copy. You may
find many historical details of benefit to your history
writing project. Therefore a copy is being sent through Mr.
Davachi [correspondence from Haifa were conveyed through
him to the friends in Iran].
You should also know that you're free to accept or reject any
portion of this narrative and just because its sent from the
Holy Land does not mean accuracy is assured. The history of
the Cause must be prepared based on solid evidences and not
unworthy matters.
Regarding the matter of celebration of the Guardian's birth,
and proclamation of [Abdu'l-Baha's] Will and Testament,
earlier you'd ask for exact dates and I don't recall if I
responded or due to many distractions forgot about it. The
Guardian does not wish for these events to be considered as
Holy Days because if the friends are to celebrate the birth,
announcement of the Guardianship and commemoration of the
passing of each Guardian, then the entire year will be
devoted to such events and no days remain for work. This
clearly is against the interest of the Cause. He states only
those Days mentioned in the Writings are considered Holy Days
and no other is permitted to be celebrated or work be
suspended. [closing pleasantries, including assurance of
prayers.]
Azizu'llah [Bahadur]
This last paragraph actually has nothing to do with our
discussion, but I thought to share this rough translation because
it clearly shows the Guardian's anticipation of appointment of
many more future Guardians. Interesting!? Also, I should
explain that early believers expected that we each Head of the
Faith after Baha'u'llah, then 3 Holy Days to be observed: Birth,
Assumption of Office and Passing. Abdu'l-Baha's Birth was of
course celebrated on the same Day as the Bab's Declaration and
the Day of Covenant was the symbolic representation of His
assumption of Office (similar to "Declaration" Days) and of
course His passing was observed (though work was not suspended).
So, much the same way, the friends during the early days of
Shoghi Effendi thought that his birth, assumption of office and
passing must also be marked by observances -- and that's what he
prohibited.
Other thoughts on the above letter:
1. I don't know Ashchi's exact date of passing (if anyone does,
please enlighten), but from the above its clear that it occurred
during the first half of 1925.
2. When the Guardian refers to Ashchi's recollections not to
part of history, I read as the Guardian's desire for history to
be written in full details, placing many events in their proper
perspective and no simply based on any one person's recollection.
Clearly, Ashchi's recollections are most vital in assembling such
a history -- as Fadil used them in his Zuhuru'l-Haqq and Balyuzi
in his "Baha'u'llah: the King of Glory".
Starting with the next post, we'll delve into the actual text of
Ashchi's memories.
As always, I'll be grateful for any corrections or further
elucidations by my learned brothers.
best regards, ahang.
=END=
From: SSchaut@aol.com
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 10:23:07 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Order and Rights
"Since the orderly running of your association dependeth upon devotion,
integrity, fair-mindedness and sanctity of purpose manifested by the friends
of God, they should show forth in their management of it's affairs such
purity, nobility and far-signted wisdon that they will become the model for
other societies, and all people may be edified and enlightened by their
example. In this way the Baha'is will become known to all as people who are
dependable and honest, virtuous and enlightened, pure and refined, who are
industrious and high-pricipled, liberal minded and promoters of freedom;
whose concern is to serve the common good, not to advance their own
interests, and whose aim is to further the welfare and prosperity of the
people not to foster their own well-being."
'Abdul-Baha: Trustworthiness,
page 341
It would seem that letting go of what American's think of individual rights
and looking toward the prosperity and welfare of the people is something we
should think about.
Regards,
Sue Schaut
=END=
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 07:58:44 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Re: Continental Counselors
To: talisman@indiana.edu
---- Begin Forwarded Message
Return-Path:
Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu by ix13.ix.netcom.com
(8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
id BAA27911; Sun, 28 Jan 1996 01:06:01 -0800
Dear Talismanians
You will find that a Counselor has a higher rank than an NSA,primarly
because they have as an individual to discharge the function given to
them by the House of Justice on an ongoing basis. As neither they or
the board that they serve on have any administative power unless the
House has given them certain powers in a particular NSA area, there is
no conflict of interest. The question was raised many years ago
relating to rank of NSA members and the Counselor,Counselors the House
said were higher. Also NSA members have no personal ranking and are
only given such if they are representing the NSA. You could argue that
a Counselor has a personal rank and no member of any institution has
and that includes the body who appoints them.
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
> Isn't it true
> that the Continental Boards of Counselors have a higher rank than the
> National Spiritual Assemblies?
Mark -
We-e-e-ll?
The Counselors and the National Assemblies are both members of
autonomous
arms of the administration. National Assemblies out-rank local
Assemblies,
and Counselors out-rank Aux Brd members; but within their areas of
responsibility, Natinal Assemblies are subject to the Counselors and
Counselors to the National Assembly. It's almost like trying to decide
if
Roma apples are better than Red Delicious; it depends on whether you
are
making pie or fruit salad.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of
Unknowing
=END=
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 96 15:46:13 UT
From: "Hannah E. Reinstein"
To: "Talisman list - MSNINET"
Subject: Not just talk any more
I'd like to share something beautiful that arrived in my email this past
week at work. It's a draft press release that should give us, as Baha'is,
much to think about. I find the section quoting the actual text of the
resolution to be the most relevant to discussions on this and other
Baha'i lists. Surely what this small group of Christians has done
sets an example that is resonant with our ideals and practice as
Baha'is, doesn't it? I'm not from a Christian background myself but
it does seem to me that these folks are showing deeds in place of mere
words. H.R.
Subject: Bellevue church welcomes Gays and Lesbians
The First Congregational Church of Bellevue voted overwhelmingly at last
night's quarterly congregational meeting to become an officially recognized
Open and Affirming church to Gays and Lesbians. The Open and Affirming
designation is used within the United Church of Christ (UCC) denomination
to identify those UCC churches which have chosen to welcome Gay and
Lesbians within their congregation.
The congregational meeting was well attended and the vote was 94% in favor
of passage. The vote was the culmination of a 2-year process which involved
educating the congregation on gay and lesbian issues, listening
to the concerns of members of the congregation as they struggled with
this issue, and solliciting comments and suggestions on the wording of
a resolution which best represents the church's position. The pastor,
Rev. Harvey Buer, gave numerous sermons over the course of the
two-year period which addressed many gay-related issues: the biblical
passages which are often used to condemn homosexuality, Jesus'
overwhelming message of inclusive love, the injustices suffered by
Gays and Lesbians at the hands of church and society, and the need
for churches to stand up for what is right and just. On the day of
the congregational meeting, Rev. Buer delivered a sermon entitled
"Everybody's Chruch house" which was based on the text of the
resolution itself. The actual resolution follows:
As a diverse people who united to form the United Church of Christ,
as a pilgrim people who on our journey of faith pray for "courage in
the struggle for justice and peace,"
as a compassionate people who continue to seek justice and mercy for
all who are oppressed,
we declare ourselves an Open and Affirming congregation who recognize
all people are uniquely loved and valued by God; and we welcome
diversity of race, abilities, sexual orientation, gender, age,
religious backgrounds, opinion, marital status, and economic condition.
As an inclusive Christian community, we affirm each person's unique
contributions. In our journey of faith, we seek to be responsible to
God and one another.
Acknowledging the silence and discrimination that the gay community has
experienced in Church and society, we commit ourselves to continue
exploring what it means to be faithfully Open and Affirming in a
changing world. In this process, we shall strive to love each other
more fully as God has enabled us to love, rooted in an honest and
compassionate relationship with one another.
First Congregational Church of Bellevue is located in downtown Bellevue
on the corner of NE 8th and 108th NE at 752 108th NE. The phone number
is 454-5001. The main worship service is on Sunday morning at 10:30 AM
with a smaller, earlier service at 9:00 AM.
. . . I wanted to share this recent development
with my net-friends. I wrote this summary myself but an official press
release is in the works so look for a story in the JA later in the week.
-Durwood Gafford (durwood@wolfenet.com)
====Hannah's Sig of the Day===========
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change
the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead
=END=
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 10:54:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: SSchaut@aol.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Order and Rights
Sue:
Welcome aboard! We have all benefitted from Rick's keen posts, and are
glad to see yours, as well.
Baha'u'llah's and `Abdu'l-Baha's writings are replete with references to
human rights. I do not see in what way the following passage detracts
from individual rights.
There are two sorts of rights, according to Sir Isaiah Berlin, negative
and positive. Negative rights mainly have to do with the right to be
left alone and not regimented. Positive rights are rights *to*
something, such as a buyer's right to actually receive the goods he paid
for. The Baha'i faith recognizes both kinds of right. Freedom of speech,
of conscience, of religion, of political persuasion, of the press; as
well as many other key liberties, are praised and promoted in the Writings.
What is critiqued in the Writings is Liberalism's tendency toward "using"
people instrumentally, toward an individual selfishness that is obvious
in someone like a Carnegie or a Richard Nixon. But many liberals
would agree with this critique, and anyway it does not lead to a
conclusion that basic rights should be revoked. It can only be addressed
by forming a strong religious and ethical culture within a Liberal framework.
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
On Sun, 28 Jan 1996 SSchaut@aol.com wrote:
>
> "Since the orderly running of your association dependeth upon devotion,
> integrity, fair-mindedness and sanctity of purpose manifested by the friends
> of God, they should show forth in their management of it's affairs such
> purity, nobility and far-signted wisdon that they will become the model for
> other societies, and all people may be edified and enlightened by their
> example. In this way the Baha'is will become known to all as people who are
> dependable and honest, virtuous and enlightened, pure and refined, who are
> industrious and high-pricipled, liberal minded and promoters of freedom;
> whose concern is to serve the common good, not to advance their own
> interests, and whose aim is to further the welfare and prosperity of the
> people not to foster their own well-being."
> 'Abdul-Baha: Trustworthiness,
> page 341
>
>
> It would seem that letting go of what American's think of individual rights
> and looking toward the prosperity and welfare of the people is something we
> should think about.
>
> Regards,
> Sue Schaut
>
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 96 0:42:38 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg"
To: tan1@cornell.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: status quo and utopia
Dear Tim:
Very glad to see your posting on Juan's map.
Having felt a bit hurt lately by being misunderstood, I am perhaps
a bit overly sensitive on the point, but aren't you reading a bit
more into the map and the accompanying comments than are actually
there? Let me clarify why I ask this:
Juan said:
>> political "right" refers to systems that value unquestioned
>> authority, hierarchy, unequal distribution of power and wealth. The
>> political "left" values egalitarianism, the dispersal and
>> distribution of wealth and power . . .
You said:
> I say that map is severely biased. I suggest the "right" is not so
> completely bad, and the "left is certainly not so innocent and
> good as this.
With the exception of the word *unquestioned*, which I discuss below,
the statements are quite objective and value-free, I think. So, it
seems to me that saying that one side is portrayed as being *bad* and
the other as *good* is your subjective interpretation, not the
writer's.
If we are going to talk about this subject, we need to hold off
pulling on our combat boots for a while, wouldn't you agree?
About the right valuing unquestioned authority, it may be overstating
things a bit. But remember "the Divine Right of Kings" and the
Confucian doctrines of the rightness of the ruler? These, and other
doctrines do tend to portray the ruler as being like a father that
knows better: it is not for the ruled to ask why, but rather to respond
meekly and obediently.
On my part, I would put a similar statement about valuing unquestioned
authority as applying *in practice* to the left. This need for this
is avoided, a bit too elegantly for my taste, by putting in the
category of Leninism, which presumably includes must of the communist
movements. But Leninism once held far greater sway than European
socialism, and certainly is one of the two major trends in left
ideologies. But that is just quibbling.
Yours sincerely,
Stephen R. Friberg
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 13:05:57 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Natural law and its distortions: A short answer to Mr. Taylor
Dear Mr. Taylor:
Since you asked in that ever-sweet tone of yours here are some quotes. You
might also read Ruhiyyih Rabbani's "The Guardian of the Baha'i Faith" where
she devotes quite a few pages to this subject. She even uses the same
metaphor at one point. But I don't want to spoil it foryou so you'll have to
read the whole book.
>>What we witness at the present time, during "this gravest crisis in the
history of civilization," recalling such times in which "religions have
perished and are born," is the adolescent stage in the slow and painful
evolution of humanity, preparatory to the attainment of the stage of
manhood, the stage of maturity, the promise of which is embedded in
the teachings, and enshrined in the prophecies of Baha'u'llah. The
tumult of this age of transition is characteristic of the impetuosity and
irrational instincts of youth, its follies, its prodigality, its pride, its
self-assurance, its rebelliousness, and contempt of discipline.
(Promised Day is Come, page 117)
>>The world is, in truth, moving on towards its destiny. The
interdependence of the peoples and nations of the earth, whatever the leaders
of the divisive forces of the world may say or do, is already an accomplished
fact. Its unity in the economic sphere is now understood and
recognized. The welfare of the part means the welfare of the whole, and
the distress of the part brings distress to the whole. The Revelation of
Baha'u'llah has, in His own words, "lent a fresh impulse and set a new
direction: to this vast process now operating in the world. The fires lit by
this great ordeal are the consequences of men's failure to recognize it.
They are, moreover, hastening its consummation. Adversity, prolonged,
worldwide, afflictive, allied to chaos and universal destruction,
must needs convulse the nations, stir the conscience of the world,
disillusion the masses, precipitate a radical change in the very conception
of society, and coalesce ultimately the disjointed, the bleeding
limbs of mankind into one body, single, organically united, and indivisible.
World Commonwealth
(Promised Day is Come, pages 122-123)
>>The first signalizes the death pangs of an order, effete and godless, that
has stubbornly refused, despite the signs and portents of a century-old
Revelation, to attune its processes to the precepts and ideals which that
Heaven-sent Faith proffered it. The second proclaims the birth pangs of
an Order, divine and redemptive, that will inevitably supplant the
former, and within Whose administrative structure an embryonic
civilization, incomparable and world-embracing, is imperceptibly
maturing. The one is being rolled up, and is crashing in oppression,
bloodshed, and ruin. The other opens up vistas of a justice, a unity, a
peace, a culture, such as no age has ever seen. The former has spent its
force, demonstrated its falsity and barrenness, lost irretrievably its
opportunity, and is hurrying to its doom. The latter, virile and
unconquerable, is plucking asunder its chains, and is vindicating its title
to
be the one refuge within which a sore-tried humanity, purged from its dross,
can attain its destiny.
(Promised Day is Come, page 17)
>>Soon will the present-day order
be rolled up, and a new one spread out in its stead.
(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings)
>>Let there be no mistake. The principle of the Oneness of Mankind
the pivot round which all the teachings of Baha'u'llah revolve
- is no mere outburst of ignorant emotionalism or an expression of
vague and pious hope. Its appeal is not to be merely identified with
a reawakening of the spirit of brotherhood and good-will among
men, nor does it aim solely at the fostering of harmonious cooperation
among individual peoples and nations. Its implications are
deeper, its claims greater than any which the Prophets of old were
allowed to advance. Its message is applicable not only to the individual,
but concerns itself primarily with the nature of those essential
relationships that must bind all the states and nations as members
of one human family. It does not constitute merely the enunciation
of an ideal, but stands inseparably associated with an institution
adequate to embody its truth, demonstrate its validity, and perpetuate
its influence. It implies an organic change in the structure of present-day
society, a change such as the world has not yet experienced. It
constitutes a challenge, at once bold and universal, to outworn
shibboleths of national creeds - creeds that have had their day and
which must, in the ordinary course of events as shaped and controlled
by Providence, give way to a new gospel, fundamentally different
from, and infinitely superior to, what the world has already conceived.
It calls for no less than the reconstruction and the demilitarization
of the whole civilized world - a world organically unified
in all the essential aspects of its life, its political machinery, its
spiritual aspiration, its trade and finance, its script and language,
and yet infinite in the diversity of the national characteristics of its
federated units.
(World Order of Baha'u'llah, pages 42-43)
I would suggest that these few quotes, along with virtually all the ones
dealing with the New World Order, the Administrative Order, the Old World
Order can be correctly viewed in light of the metaphor that was used, i.e.
the tearing away of old spiritual/mental templates that have guided
humankinds Path for millenia. It is either that or Baha'u'llah has come to
simply lay down pure silk over a bloodstained, sullied and tattered old robe.
I would also suggest, if you feel the metaphor was not apt to re-read:
Individual Rights and Freedoms, The Promise of World Peace, and A Wider
Horizon.
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 19:36:52 +0100
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: Loni.BramsonLerche@ping.be (Loni Bramson-Lerche)
Subject: Re: From Birkland 1/26
Dear Counselor Birkland,
First, I wish to profoundly thank you for reposting on this matter.
I was very interested to read that, as a Counselor, you feel that
certain statements on Talisman have challenged and undermined the
Covenant. Indeed, I have been shocked and dismayed by some
statements on Talisman, but as an individual I also believe that I
have no personal right to question somebody's motives or intentions.
I try my best, which usually is not good enough, to follow Abdu'l-Baha's
and Shoghi Effendi's counsel not to be upset by what other Baha'is say
and do, but rather to see their words and actions as their way of
manifesting intense love for our beloved religion. But, as a Counselor,
you have the moral and spiritual responsibility, given to you by the
Universal House of Justice, to keep it, and the Hands of the Cause of God,
"informed concerning the conditions of the Cause" (Wellspring of Guidance
141) in your area. Part of this duty involves what you perceive is related
to the protection of the Baha'i Faith, so, logically it would follow that
you would be required to make judgments as to what could be problematic
attitudes toward the Covenant.
It is obvious that different Baha'is have different understandings of what
the Covenant means. For instance, Prof. Coles' posting seems to imply,
to my understanding, that is, that he feels the Covenant stops with our
relationship to the Universal House of Justice. In my view, the Covenant
not only extends to all aspects of the Administrative Order, but envelops,
as well, the institution of the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar, individual, familial,
and social relationships, and even our relationship to the rest of God's
creation. The core of the Covenant, for me, is how God has chosen, in
this Day, to manifest divine love for us, and how we show our love for
God. An example that the Covenant goes beyond the Universal House of
Justice is that one can be excommunicated, that is declared a "Covenant-
breaker", for attempting to usurp the authority of a national spiritual
assembly. There has already been at least one such case that I know about.
Another example, which I believe might illustrate how the "Lesser Covenant"
is part and parcel of the "Greater Covenant", is that unrepentent backbiting
can be sanctioned with the removal of one's voting rights.
Counselor Birkland, would you be willing to lead a deepening on the
Covenant on Talisman? I personally would be very grateful as I have not
had the opportunity to deepen on this essential subject for many years.
Sincerely,
Loni Bramson-Lerche
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: cfarhoum@osf1.gmu.edu
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: American Individualism (was Relationship between v
Date: 28 Jan 1996 12:41:53 GMT
> individualism in the US is largely a result of the desire
> to be an independent, self defined entity as a nation - would you all
> agree with this notion?
Cheshmak -
I don't, however there are academics who make a good argument for the idea.
My objection to it is basically that the same effect has not generally
occured in other countries in the ensuing 200 years. It is my understanding
that there is a similar feeling to the U.S. idea in Australia. this fits
with my idea of the causes of an extreme sense of individuality in the U.S.
One of the major influences, I believe, is the people who first came to the
U.S.
Many, if not most of the immigrants were outcasts from their society.
Initially, religios practice was important, but soon it was seen as an
opprotunity for the individual to succeed. Therefore, it attracted those
people who were already individualistic. It was also, to some extent, used
as a dumping ground for undesirables by the British governement. In order to
encourage it's development, prisoners, particular those in debtors prison
were allowed to go to America. In some cases, they were provided passage in
return for a contract to work for someone for a designated period -
indentured servants, a condition that sometimes was little more than slavery.
Again, these are people whose bonds with society were weak, and they were
weakened further by being transported to a remote land where they had neither
friends or family.
A second major factor was the frontier. Tho' we tend to think of it as
existing 'in the west' during the last half of the 19th century, it actually
was there from the beginning and only ended in the early years of the 20th
century when homesteading finally came to an end. Because of this vast
relatively unpopulated area, those people who already had weak societal ties,
could maintain them by moving to the fringes of civilization where their
survival depended largely on their own ingenuity, skills and persistance not
on society.
The combination of these two factors allowed individualism to develop and
flourish for over 200 years, 10 generations, long enough to engrain it in our
consciousness.
One of the questions we need to ask is what is the effect of this background
on us as Baha'is. There are, as I see it, two sides to the answer.
Let's get the bad news oout of the way - it makes it difficult for us to form
stable communities. This aspect of the American Baha'i community has been
noted, discussed, argued about, and denounced for at least 30 years. The
only thing I'll add is that perhaps we need to find a workable definition of
community that accepts our heritage.
But there is an important good side also - what other people in the world
have so few ties to family and birthplace that they can travel the world in
obedience to the command of Abdu'l-Baha establishing the New World Order?
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: cfarhoum@osf1.gmu.edu
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Relationship between violent history and viole
Date: 28 Jan 1996 12:42:09 GMT
> history of violence
> repeating itself, the abused become the abuser
I don't believe this is well documented. In fact it is my understanding that
several extensive studies in the last few years show that this idea has, in
fact, no basis.
Perhaps Mark or someone cant cite sources; but as I understand it, while
violent people tend to have been the victims of violence, victims of violence
do not tend to be violent. If I remeber correctly, in those cases where it
is known in advance that an individual has suffered childhood physical abuse
as determined by law, about 15 per cent then themselves become violent as
adults. As one writer said, children appear to have a built in healing
mechanism that allows them to survive.
This entire argument began, I think, about the same time as the 'reefer
madness' theories that the use of marijuana led to the use of heroin. Both
arguments have now been debunked, and as I understand it, the correlation in
both cases is about the same.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Re: Relationship between violent history and viole
To: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 13:44:58 -0600 (CST)
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Don -
In the studies I have seen on the physical abuse of children, it seems as
though children who were abused are at a higher risk of abusing their own
children. However, they are *not likely* to abuse their children,
contrary to what some people, such as John Bradshaw, have said. Most
parents do not physically abuse their children (using various criteria
for abuse), and that includes those who come from an abusive background.
To the Light,
Mark Foster
=END=
Date: 28 Jan 1996 11:35:50 -0500
From: "Riaz Motlagh"
Subject: Forms of Government
To: "talisman mail address"
Subject: Time:12:24 PM
OFFICE MEMO Forms of Government Date:1/28/96
I remember having read somewhere in Bahaullah's writings that Bahaullah
recommends the British form of government for Iran. This would imply his
approval of the adoption of a present form of government. Does anyone remember
which tablet that is?
I left my Bahai concordance back east before moving to california.
Riaz Motlagh
=END=
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 13:39:42 -0600 (CST)
Subject: re: Top 10 CD's
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Talisman"
1. ELECTRIC MUSIC FOR THE MIND AND BODY--Country Joe and the Fish
2. After Bathing at Baxter's--Jefferson Airplane
3. Happy Trails--Quicksilver Messenger Service
4. East-West--Butterfield Blues Band
5. Clouds--Joni Mitchell
6. Blue--Joni Mitchell
7. Ladies of the Canyon--Joni Mitchell
8. Children of the Future--Steve Miller Band
9. Super Session--Bloomfield/Cooper/Stills
10. Are You Experienced--The Jimi Hendrix Experience
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 14:32:40 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Talisman Survey
Dear Friends ,
I have a request . This past week as a result of conversations among
Assembly members in Omaha this question came up . Do you think any other
communities and individuals have benefited from the discussions on Talisman ?
As many of you know I share the issues discussed on Talisman with
members of the community at an adult deepening class . The result in Omaha
has been a renewed level of teaching ; an increase in enrollments ; greater
contributions to the fund ; and a deeper appreciation of the stupendous
Revelation of Bahau llah . The friends in Omaha are wondering if any of the
above are happening elsewhere or are we just wierd .
Specifically would people post to Talisman or to me privately if you
would rather not come out of lurker status and I will compile the results for
the members of the list and distribute to my community .
We are looking for the following :
1) has anyone increased their level of teaching or found new ways to
teach as a result of discussions on Talisman and been better able to answer
questions of seekers as a result of discussions on Talisman .
2) has anyone become more involved in the life of their community as a
result of the discussions on Talisman , if so in what ways even if only
atteneding Feast .
3) has anyone found new ways to identify with the Faith of Bahu llah , an
enhanced sense of Bahai identity as a result of discussions on Talisman
4) has anyone found a renewed sense of personal spirituality as a result
of the discussions on Talisman .
Needless to say all of the above have been the effect of Talisman in the
Omaha Bahai community and we would appreciate knowing if the same has been
true of other indivisduals and communities in relation to one or more of the
four items above .
Please Respond ! ! !
Lonely in Omaha ,
warm regards ,
Terry - on behalf of the Omaha Bahai community
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: l.droege@genie.geis.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Re: from Birkland 1/26
Date: 28 Jan 1996 14:16:35 GMT
> Having met Steve Birkland I would tend to listen to his advice whether
> he's speaking for himself or in an official capacity.
<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>
> A related issue: Does anybody seriously think that "nobody@replay.com"
> would be sending us that garbage if he/she didn't sense a
> vulnerability somewhere?
I echo this. BTW, I did recieve the material also, so I no longer feel left
out. 8-)
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: Loni.BramsonLerche@ping.be
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu, SBirkland@aol.com
Subject: Re: Re: From Birkland 1/26
Date: 28 Jan 1996 14:40:43 GMT
> Counselor Birkland, would you be willing to lead a deepening on the
> Covenant on Talisman? I personally would be very grateful as I have not
> had the opportunity to deepen on this essential subject for many years.
Loni -
May I suggest as a started, the workbook from the U.S. NTC, 'The Covenant".
It is still available from the Publishing Trust.
I would like to suggest that a second volume is now in order that explores
material that was not available when it came out and addresses issues that
that have come out since then.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 14:43:43 -0700
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: alma@indirect.com (Alma Engels)
Subject: Re: Top Ten CD's
Top ten CD's?????? Hey guys, I don't even own a cd player at the moment.
Bought one musical cd and played it through mhy multimedia computer. Played
ok but the screen action was non-existent (can you guess that I own computer
game cd's some of which have interesting music).
My musical history goes w-a-y back to a handcranked victrola with the famous
doggie on it and my early musical preferences were bipolar -- either Winnie
the Pooh or Jeannette MacDonald singing " When I'm calling you oo ooo"
scratchily -- never figured out if that was the woman's voice or the victrola.
In college one of my professors (in a day when tv was next to nonexistent
and elevator music still to be implemented) state that if one really loved a
particular piece of music, one should NEVER own it. That one should come
upon it unexpectedly. And I think there is some merit to this.
Today my tastes in music are less than completely eclectic. Popular music
and I parted company in the 1970's. Perhaps this was inevitable as I have
fond memories of seeing Broadway musicals with REAL music including the
'King and I' the week before Gertrude Lawrence unexpectedly died. I lean to
the classical but note that more and more I am relating to modern classical,
including opera. Opera for me is an acquired taste like olives or capers.
Had a musical roommate one year in college who maintained that opera was
easy to appreciate if one realized that the soulful sounds from the tenors
(usually amply girthed) were cries for more and tastier spaghetti.
In peace,
Alma
To tread the path of Love Alma Engels
Is no mere game. alma@indirect.com
For only one
Out of many thousands
Can persevere in His Love. (Tahirih)
=END=
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 14:43:38 -0700
To: George Gary , Talisman@indiana.edu
From: alma@indirect.com (Alma Engels)
Subject: Re: Re sex and values
An interesting supposition, George. And leads me to observe that so much of
human existence is bipolar -- right leg and left leg, etc., where there is
really no meaningful inbetween position. Not to mention the opposites such
as day and night where there are inbetween positions.
Wonder what this has to do with our tendency to see morality, theology as
bipolar too. Such as the dualism of Christianity and Zoroastrianism where
evil exists as an entity vs the one pole Baha'i idea that good exists and
that evil is the turning away from good -- which can be done from any one of
the 360 degrees -- not to mention the minutes.
This tendency has not, of course, disappeared from the thinking of some
Baha'is who equate their opinion on a Baha'i matter with THE right opinion
and by definition any other is wrong. So sure are they of this, that
sometimes it seems that no attention is paid to the points made by the other
party. Thus, for instance, a statement by me that Shoghi Effendi should be
read in context and that perhaps his interpretation applies better to his
own times than ours is translated to a rejection of Shoghi Effendi in toto
and this rejection is expanded to mean a rejection of Baha'u'llah Himself.
Though I hadn't thought of a third sex before, as a retired computer
programmer/analyst, I had pondered what it would mean if computers were
trinary rather than binary, how it would complicate everything immensely and
I wrote a poem about this which I share now.
TRINARY
My small computer startles me with "maybe,"
a strange new word which suddenly appears.
All its friends still talk binary plainly:
blink "yes" and "no" as they have done for years.
Odd, my computer, only you mutate.
Had you a choice would you stay in this state?
Copyright (c) 1994, Alma Engels
At 08:52 PM 1/26/96 -0500, George Gary wrote:
>Imagine as in many science fiction books the existence of intelligent
>species with three or more genders and the complexities of sexual
>morality in such a situation.
>
>
>
>
To tread the path of Love Alma Engels
Is no mere game. alma@indirect.com
For only one
Out of many thousands
Can persevere in His Love. (Tahirih)
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 17:15:23 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Erotic imagery
Some time ago, John Walbridge posted an important and deeply fascinating
paper which he had written concerning Baha'u'llah's use of erotic imagery in
his early Writings. I wonder if he would be good enough to post it again?
Thanks in advance, John.
Tony
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 17:13:51 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Talisman Survey
Yes, yes, yes! Talsiman has had a profound effect on me, and on other
members of my Baha'i community with whom I have shared some of the posts.
As a result of our discussions here, the Manhattan Beach community decided
to initiate devotional meetings for the purpose of prayer alone. We also
radically changed our Ascension of 'Abdu'l-Baha program to include the
children lighting candles (at 9:00 p.m.) and singing songs.
Deeply affected by Tery's posts, I have also changed my standard fireside
to include the notion that the Baha'i Faith does NOT offer to the world just
another tribal god--much to the chagrin of more conservative believers.
There is more. But, enough for now.
Tony
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 11:21:16 +1300 (NZDT)
To: TLCULHANE@aol.com, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Talisman Survey
Terry,
I am writing here as one of the three or four Dunedinites (per capita
we're the most ardent Talismanites in the world probably: 0.04% total city
population) on the list. Regarding this matter I have not consulted with
the others,and I will give (alliteratively) purely personal impressions.
Before answering your questions, I'd like to make a few background
comments. Alison and Steve produce our excellent local newsletter. In
each newsletter they include letters from various Baha'i lists, including
Talisman. So our community (100 persons I suppose) has been exposed to
Talismanic viewpoints for many months. However -- IMHO -- Steve and Alison
(wisely) do not reprint (any) controversial material, so I don't think the
Talisman stuff is distinguishable from the stuff from other lists. Thus --
it seems to me -- that the general influence of Talisman can be lumped with
the influence of email lists considered collectively. And what this
influence amounts to, is hard to guage. Not much, in terms of praxis, I
suspect.
Curiously, though, what might be considered Talismanic thought has had a
major influence on the New Zealand Baha'i psyche. For instance, the view
that the House might change its mind regarding women on the House was
widely circulated in New Zealand a number of years ago, and needed a letter
from the House before it could be put to rest. Really, though, it was not
put to rest, and there are still some believers in New Zealand who cling to
it. Not until I had been on Talisman for a few months did I come to realise
that the primary source of this view in New Zealand was a paper written by
one of the most prominent Talisman correspondents. The idea still enjoys a
rich life here on Talisman -- or at least it seemed to be alive and well
during the women-House discussion last year.
>
> 1) has anyone increased their level of teaching or found new ways to
>teach as a result of discussions on Talisman and been better able to answer
>questions of seekers as a result of discussions on Talisman .
Personally speaking, it is hard to say. Writing to Talisman on an almost
daily basis has probably sharpened my communication skills, though that is
debateable ;-} If I have learned anything significant it has been about
protecting the Faith from the perversity of "lukewarm" thought. The nature
of this thought has been exposed on Talisman, I think. And the list must
be accorded credit for providing this opportunity to discover and challenge
it...
> 2) has anyone become more involved in the life of their community as a
>result of the discussions on Talisman , if so in what ways even if only
>atteneding Feast .
Unlikely.
> 3) has anyone found new ways to identify with the Faith of Bahu llah , =
an
>enhanced sense of Bahai identity as a result of discussions on Talisman
See 1 and 2. Generally: I don't know. (My life has been changed quite
radically since arriving on Talisman. For instance, I am getting RSI in my
left wrist...)
In discussions with Steve and =C5lison, it has become quite clear that we al=
l
devote considerable amounts of time to Talisman, and get quite different
things from it. We still talk, but not as much. We seem more polarised.
This could be the harbinger of a higher form of unity, but sometimes it has
seemed like real estrangement.
> 4) has anyone found a renewed sense of personal spirituality as a resul=
t
>of the discussions on Talisman .
The opportunity to virtually mix with fellow Baha'is from all over the
globe has been good for me, spiritually. Some of the thinkers here are
simply wonderful... on all sorts of levels...
Hope this helps,
Robert.
=END=
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 18:06:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Baha'u'llah's "Surah of Blood"
In conjunction with Ahang Rabbani's heartwarming and very valuable
project of reviewing primary sources for the life of the Blessed Beauty,
I thought it might be useful to post the following provisional
translation. It is of the "Surah of Blood" (Surat ad-Dam), pp. 1-15 of
Athar-i Qalam-i A`la, vol. 4, 2nd edn.
The Tablet is one of the early proclamatory Tablets sent by
Baha'u'llah from Edirne when he publicly announced His mission. The
first of these to arrive in Tehran was addressed to Aqa Munir (Munib)
Kashani. Nabil says that this Tablet arrived in the latter part of 1282
(I'd guess, January or February of 1866) and that it was the first news
he had had of Baha'u'llah in Edirne. Nabil must immediately have
contacted Baha'u'llah, and my guess is that this Tablet is the reply he
received. Baha'u'llah clearly states His station as He whom God shall
make manifest, the return of the spirit of the Bab and of Quddus, as
well as the fulfillment of the Qur'an and of Christianity. Indeed, in the
famous middle passage translated by Shoghi Effendi in Gleanings,
Baha'u'llah here identifies Himself with all the past Prophets and their
sufferings. This passage has a "frame" story based on the Shi`ite
narrative of the martyrdom of Imam Husayn at Karbala, in what is now
Iraq. Baha'u'llah depicts himself sprawled out upon the field of battle,
mortally wounded (as Imam Husayn was). I have done a literary
analysis of this passage, published in *Poetics Today,* which I could
share if there is demand.
I hope you all enjoy it.
cheers, Juan
Provisional trans. by Juan R.I. Cole, History, University of Michigan,
Ann Arbor, MI 48105-1045; revised Jan. 27-28, 1996. Supplied for
personal, private study only. Not Reviewed.
Baha'u'llah
The Surah of Blood
(Suratu'd-Dam)
We have caused this Surah of Blood to surge forth from the
Ocean of the Unseen, that it might be a sign of My Manifestation
among all created things.
He is eternally seated upon the Throne! In My Name, the
Glorious, the All-Glorious:
Hearken, O Muhammad1, to the voice of thy Lord from this
station, which is exalted above the reach of all contingent beings. It
can never be attained by the hearts of His creatures nor by the inmost
realities of those who have, for a single instant, been heedless of this
sanctified, mighty and concealed Cause.
Say: O people, hasten unto the sanctuary of God and His
essence, unto the House of God and His Selfhood, unto the
Manifestation of God and His sovereignty. Be not of them that make
mention of God with their lips and yet show forth opposition to His
signs. Say: O people, this is a station around which circles the
Concourse on High, then the denizens of the canopy of eternity and
those who dwell beyond the depths of grandeur, if ye be of them that
comprehend. Say: This is the Shrine, the Presence, the Countenance
and the Greatness of God Himself.
Arise and issue forth from your homes, O people of the
concourse of Divinity, and ye of the grades of divine Dominion, then
the people of might in the stations both of this earthly world and the
Kingdom of Heaven. Thus may ye attain unto this station, which none
have reached save those who detached themselves from all in heaven
and on earth, and from all that is characterized by name, description,
direction or allusion, did ye but understand. Say: O people, this is the
station of God, this is His Court, Garden and Paradise, and this is His
Tabernacle and Pavilion. Beware, O people, lest ye turn your faces
toward anyone but Him. Hasten then unto Him, that mayhap ye will
be given to eat of the fruits of the Spirit. This is a station wherein the
righteous, and they that circle round the Throne on High, have halted,
as ye also bear witness.
As for thee, O Muhammad, perform what the tongue of thy
Lord doth counsel thee at this time, and accomplish all that which thou
art bidden by God, the Protector, the Almighty, the Beloved. First of
all, tear the veils of vain imagination from about thy heart by My
mighty, powerful and unquestioned Sovereignty. Then enter the
fortress of the All-Merciful in My Name, the Mighty, the Glorified,
and pay no heed to all that hath been and shall be. If thou shouldst
behold Satan2 seated at its gate, forbidding thee to enter therein, close
thine eyes to him and take refuge in My Beauty, the Blessed, the Help
in Peril, the Adored. Beware lest ye sit with those in whom thou
perceivest the evidences of malice, as heat is evident in summer or cold
in poison. Flee from them and their ilk, and look not upon them nor
that which they possess. Turn thy gaze rather to My Cause, and that
which surpasseth in excellence all else, did ye but perceive it.
If thou dost wish to travel in various lands, then do thou spread
the dawning lights of thy Lord throughout those realms. Think thou
upon the handiwork of thy Lord which thou seest, that thou mayest be
of those who consider. Adorn thyself with My character, in such wise
that should anyone treat thee unjustly thou wouldst take no heed of
him, nor oppose him. Leave him to the judgment of thy Lord, the
Powerful, Omnipotent and Self-Subsisting. Be at all times a wronged
one, for this is one of My attributes, though none but the sincere are
aware of it. Verily, the sighs of patience uttered by one wronged are
more precious to God than any other deed, did ye but know.
Therefore, be patient in the face of whatever befalleth thee, and set thy
trust in thy Lord God in all thine affairs. He, verily, doth suffice thee
against all the harm which any created thing can wreak toward thee,
and preserveth thee in the shelter of His Cause and the mighty fortress
of His guardianship. There is no God but Him. His are the worlds of
creation and command, and all seek His aid.
Should anyone slander thee, thou must not retaliate against him
in kind lest thou become as he is. Turn aside from him, and set thy
face toward the holy tabernacle in this exalted and sacred canopy. Be
among men as a sweet-scented knoll, that the fragrance of sanctity
may be wafted among them. In such wise, thou mightest succeed in
attracting them to the court of the holy and Beloved One. Shouldst
thou find a helper among the friends of God, seek his company at
eventide and dawn, throughout the months and years. In all matters,
emulate God, thy Succorer. Walk among men with His dignity and
peace, and teach them the Cause of their Lord to the extent that they
are able to hear it.
O hoopoe of Sheba, go thou with My book to the cities of
God. Should the other birds ask thee concerning the dove of holiness,
say: "When I left her, she was sore-pressed in the talons of denial and
the beaks of wickedness. She had no helper save God, Who created
her, formed her and made her the lamp of His beauty between the
heavens of the earth, if ye be possessed of certainty."
Shouldst thou find one of My lovers, if he asks about Me say:
"By God, I went up out of the Prison City (Adrianople) at a time when
Husayn was lying upon the ground, while Disgrace knelt upon His
breast and desired to behead Him. The spears were standing before
His head, and He expected it to be raised aloft upon them. Such was
the situation in inmost secrecy, if ye be of them that perceive. I then
saw Him move His lips, and gaze toward the heavens with a look such
as would rend every heart, and beyond them the heart of God, the
Protector, the Mighty, the Self-Subsisting. I moved My head close to
His lips, and heard that He was beneath the sword, saying `O people!
By God, I have not spoken to you out of selfish desire! Nay, rather I
have given voice to that which the Speaker on Sinai uttered in My
most pure and sanctified breast. The verses of God leave no doubt as
to what hath been foreordained in the realm of the divine Decree, or as
to that which is in this world and the next. O ye who have joined
partners with God, inhale the scent of these verses that have descended
from the realm of the divine Essence, from the King of names and
attributes. Should ye perceive therein the fragrance of the coat of the
beloved Joseph, then show mercy toward Him and put Him not to
death with the blades of malice, if ye see with the eyes of justice and
are equitable in yourselves.
"`O people! I bolted up the gates of paradise for twenty years,
lest anything issue from My lips which might cause the fire of hatred to
blaze forth in your breasts. To this beareth witness the Tongue of
Grandeur, then the Pen of Command upon the holy and guarded
Tablets. O people, I verily am `Ali (the Bab), and this is but another
Return after the first. I have demonstrated to ye at this time the
greatest of the things I manifested aforetime. I have come from the
fountainhead of grandeur and glory, and the treasure hold of exaltation
and majesty, with verses of which not a single letter hath heretofore
been revealed in this world. This Tablet is My proof among ye, to ye
and against ye, if ye be of them that comprehend.
"'O people, God is My witness that I remained silent in My
house, and gave voice to no melody. However, the Spirit set my limbs
quaking, and caused Me to speak forth with the Truth. Its features
then appeared in My face, if ye descry My beauty. I barred the doors
of utterance for lo, these many years, but the tongue of God hath
loosened My tongue, did ye but know. Will ye slay Him by whose
Command the heavens were raised aloft, the seas surged forth, the
trees gave fruit, the mysteries were revealed and the beauty of the
Chosen One shone forth from behind the veil? Fear God, O people of
the Bayan, and be not of those who repudiate the verses of God. I
shall never deny these verses, even should ye slay Me and all the
swords and spears rain down upon Me at every moment. I shall speak
forth in the kingdom of the heavens and the earth, and shall never fear
anyone. This is My religion, if ye be of them that perceive. This is the
religion of all the Messengers, and is that which was revealed to `Ali
(the Bab) in every Tablet. I know not, however, to which religion ye
adhere!'
"When the melodies of that Holy One reached this point, He
suddenly fell silent by reason of the weakness which had overtaken
Him. He remained in this state for some time, and when He regained
consciousness He opened His eyes and turned in the sacred direction
with a gaze of deep affection, saying, 3
`Praise be to Thee, O Lord My God, for the wondrous
revelations of Thy inscrutable decree and the manifold woes and trials
Thou hast destined for Myself. At one time Thou didst deliver Me
into the hands of Nimrod; at another Thou hast allowed Pharaoh's rod
to persecute Me. Thou, alone, canst estimate, through Thine all-
encompassing knowledge and the operation of Thy Will, the
incalculable afflictions I have suffered at their hands. Again Thou
didst cast Me into the prison-cell of the ungodly, for no reason except
that I was moved to whisper into the ears of the well-favored denizens
of Thy Kingdom an intimation of the vision with which Thou hadst,
through Thy knowledge, inspired Me, and revealed to Me its meaning
through the potency of Thy might. And again Thou didst decree that I
be beheaded by the sword of the infidel. Again I was crucified for
having unveiled to men's eyes the hidden gems of Thy glorious unity,
for having revealed to them the wondrous signs of Thy sovereign and
everlasting power. How bitter the humiliations heaped upon Me, in a
subsequent age, on the plain of Karbila! How lonely did I feel amidst
Thy people! To what a state of helplessness was I reduced in that
land! Unsatisfied with such indignities, My persecutors decapitated
Me, and, carrying aloft My head from land to land paraded it before
the gaze of the unbelieving multitude, and deposited it on the seats of
the perverse and faithless. In a later age, I was suspended, and My
breast was made a target to the darts of the malicious cruelty of My
foes. My limbs were riddled with bullets, and My body was torn
asunder. Finally, behold how, in this Day, My treacherous enemies
have leagued themselves against Me, and are continually plotting to
instill the venom of hate and malice into the souls of Thy servants.
with all their might they are scheming to accomplish their purpose.4
"`It is Thou, My God and My adored One, Who hast delivered
Me into the hands of the infidels. Behold Me, then, in the dust,
beneath the swords of thine enemies.5
Yet, grievous as is My plight, O God, My well-Beloved, I render
thanks unto Thee, and My Spirit is grateful for whatsoever hath
befallen Me in the path of Thy good-pleasure. I am well pleased with
that which Thou didst ordain for Me, and welcome, however
calamitous, the pains and sorrows I am made to suffer.6
"`I plead with Thee, O My God, by Thy hidden names and Thy
Beauty, Who, both manifest and concealed, lieth in the dust of
degradation, to inculcate Thy love in the hearts of Thy servants, and to
seat them upon the carpet of Thy mercy. Give them shade, O My
God, beneath the tree of Thy sanctity, and deny them not the breezes
of Thy holiness, which waft from the paradise of Thy beauty and from
the direction of Thy favors. Thou art, verily, able to accomplish Thy
will, and Thou art the Help in Peril, the Self-Subsisting.'"
O Muhammad, estimate well the number of gem-like mysteries
We have bestowed upon thee, and think upon the wondrous
knowledge We have taught thee, knowledge which lay concealed
behind veils of light. Thus mayest thou become aware of that which
hath befallen Us, and be of those well-acquainted with the mysteries of
this Cause. Then say with the tongue of thy spirit in thine inmost soul,
"Is there any helper who will come to the aid of the Primal Beauty (the
Bab) in His new guise, or any supporter who will arise to serve the
Ultimate Point (Quddus) in His Radiance, the Glorious, the Most
Glorious?" Mayhap thereby God will be persuaded to dispatch
someone to succor this Youth in these days, wherein the denizens of
heaven and earth are drunk with heedlessness, save those who have
gazed from nigh upon this Beauty.
But O Muhammad, thou wilt encounter the opposition and
haughtiness of the perverse, and wilt find them engaged in acts of
hatred against this Youth on all sides, except those for whom it hath
been decreed otherwise by thy Lord God, the Mighty, the Self-
Subsisting. Give ear to that which thou art commanded by the Pen of
the Most High in the kingdom of decree, in these heavens that have
been sanctified by God from the incarnations of rancor, from the touch
of the infidels and from the recognition of the malicious. Rend
asunder the veils, then rise up from the dawning-point of this Cause
with manifest sovereignty. Call out to the people, telling them of this
resplendent, mighty and illumined Beauty. Go to the Name of Ha',
and deliver to him that which hath been bestowed upon thee by the
Spirit of God, the Powerful, the Mighty, the Generous. Perhaps he
will feel admonished within himself, will detach himself from all save
his Lord and enter the ranks of them that are rightly guided.
Say: "O My servant, We have revealed for thee Tablets and
Writings which are known only to God, and therein is that which
would enable thee to dispense with all creation, and all that is in the
heavens and on the earth. However, we did not send them to thee,
because we failed to perceive from thee the fragrance of the exalted
ones in this Arab Youth. By God, all that thou dost possess will pass
away, and nothing will remain save what is with thy Lord, behind the
pavilions of the Powerful, the Inaccessible. Leave the world and its
people, and detach thyself from all that was created therein. Then turn
thy face toward the Countenance of God, the Generous, the
Uncreated."
Say: "This is `Ali (the Bab) in very truth, Who hath appeared
once more in this most pure, manifest and glorious Beauty. He doth
speak forth with the truth in the realm of eternity, and the exalted
kingdom, if ye have ears to hear. O people of the Bayan, the spirit of
true understanding will never speak in your hearts until after My love
hath entered them. This is a fundamental principle of religion, if ye be
of those with certitude."
O people of the Qur'an, the Eternal Truth is come unto ye, and
that whereby the religions shall be differentiated and truth
distinguished from falsehood. Fear God, and be not of those who
oppose Him.
O people of the Churches, cease from ringing the bells, for the
Most Great Bell hath appeared. It is, verily, this Trump that hath been
sent down in the form of these holy verses between the heavens and
the earth. He crieth out in truth in this resplendent, manifest and
brilliant Name. Say: He it is by Whose command the verses were
revealed, and by Whose permission all the scriptures were brought into
being. To this attesteth the fragrance that issueth from the Camphor
Fountain through this most Ancient and pre-existent Pen. He speaketh
forth at all times, uttering verses beyond the comprehension of the
minds of the wise, the knowledge of the mystic knowers, and the
hearts of them that have attained. This is what ye were promised in
the Books of God, did ye but know, and this is that whereby the truth
was realized from all eternity and shall be realized to all eternity.
O Muhammad, avert thy gaze from all who are in heaven and
on earth, so that thou canst enter into the mighty fortress of thy Lord,
the Bestower, the Almighty. Set the trees of existence ablaze with this
Fire, that all may speak forth as It did, in the form of light, upon the
Sinai of Theophany. Thus doth the Ancient Beauty shower His bounty
upon thee, and command thee in this Cause, that thou mayest detach
thyself from all things and hold fast to the cord of the Omnipotent, the
Unattainable.
Spirit, praises and glory be upon thee, and upon whosoever
heareth thy tidings of this Great Announcement.
Notes
1. Muhammad "Nabil-i A`zam" Zarandi.
2. The text gives "sultan," but I read it "shaytan." I cannot find a way
to make "sultan" meaningful in this passage, since presumably the
"king" of the fortress would be God.
3. Here begins the translation of Shoghi Effendi, Gleanings XXXIX.
4. Shoghi Effendi's translation omits the following sentence.
5. Shoghi Effendi's translation resumes.
6. Shoghi Effendi's translation ends.
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 96 00:13:39 UT
From: "Hannah E. Reinstein"
To: "Talisman list - MSNINET"
Subject: The Top 10 (More or Less)
Now that the topic has been broadened to include music, here are my favorite
books and music:
Books (excluding Baha'i sacred writings which are my dearest books):
For the love of it: The Complete Works of e.e cummings; The Poetry of William
Blake; Kenneth Patchen's The Journal of Albion Moonlight
For escapism: almost everything by Stephen King, Tom Clancey, Michael
Crichton, and Ursula LeGuin
For work: anything by Peter Norton; The Windows NT Resource Kit (cuz I wrote a
big chunk of it)
For insight: Memories, Dreams and Reflections by Carl Jung; virtually anything
by Carl Jung or Joseph Campbell; The Lost Books of Enoch and Other
Pseudepigrapha(sp?)
Music: Van Morrison (lyrics are trite but sweet); k. d. lang; The Indigo
Girls; Melissa Etheridge (the latter two write poetry so extraordinary as to
rank with great literature and finer than much that calls itself poetry
today); Elton John-Benny and the Jets; 10000 Maniacs with Natalie Merchant;
The Cranberries.
Also: Narges; Moody Blues, especially Sur La Mer; Enya; Heart (occasionally
visionary poetry with much passion); Joni Mitchell; Bob Marley; Stevie Nicks
(only for her voice); Sara McLachlan; Loreena McKennitt (with Enya and Narges,
one of the most spiritually gifted singers of our time); Dead Can Dance; Chuck
Berry.
Antonio Vivaldi; Wolfie A. Mozart; Monteverdi; Albinioni; and J.S. Bach;
anything Celtic; anything in Persian.
Season tickets to: Seattle Mariners and Pacific Northwest Ballet (both poetry
in motion:-)
Music I can't stand: anything that might be played in a supermarket, an
elevator, or on Broadway; Gangster Rap and anything similar; heavy metal;
crooners; country and western.
Artists: Van Gogh, Monet; El Greco; Durer; H. Bosch, Kandinsky. That's an
extra. Thought I'd just throw it in.
Okay, so I'm very eclectic and not deeply intellectual. Sorry, but that's me
:-)
Hannah
The Artist Formerly Known As Cary
=END=
Date: 28 Jan 96 19:08:59 EST
From: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
To:
Subject: Yeah, but can you dance to it?
Dear Talismanians,
Man, we got some *serious* white folks hereabouts! (I'm pigmentally-
challenged myself, being of Norwegian stock, so no other melanin-
deficients need express extreme umbrage)
My favorite spinning round music discs:
1. John Lee Hooker's Greatest Hits
2. All pre-1980 Aretha, especially the initial Stax/Volt Memphis
album, which sent chills up my spine
3. Otis Redding's Sittin' on the Dock of the Bay
4. Big Mama Thornton's entire body of work
5. Robert Johnson's (no, not you, the one from south of the Equator,
I mean the one made a deal with the devil from south of the
Mason-Dixon line) Recordings, a boxed set from a few years back
6. Juluka, from the South African band Johnny Clegg and Savuka
7. Okay, Gord, all Dylan, heretically including the Christian period
stuff, thought by my old colleagues at Rolling Stone to be
complete dreck but containing a few killer spirituals, including
the greatest spiritual ever written by a white guy from
Hibbing, Minnesota -- Every Grain of Sand
8. Emmy Lou Harris' new CD -- argh, forgot its title -- which contains
a version of Every Grain of Sand guaranteed to bring tears to
your eyes
9. Darn near anything by Ladysmith Black Mombazo, who I had the
privilege of hearing live in Hollywood a few years back, and
who sent me to heaven
10. All early Little Anthony and the Imperials, for that soaring
falsetto set against the doo-wop
11. The Sun Sessions, from an eighteen-year-old Elvis Presley before
they took out the race and hillbilly music and bleached his soul
12. The Baha'i Gospel CD, especially the voices of Sandy Simmons and
that incredible soloist from South Carolina whose name escapes
me and who can *work* a note, honey
13. Bruce Springsteen's newest and best without Clarence Clemons (The
King of the World, the Master of Disaster, the Big Man); called
The Ghost of Tom Joad, about what it's like to try and cross
life's borders
14. All of the gospel and pop work of Ben E. King, who sings like
a true monarch
15. The Clash's London Calling
16. Early Elvis Costello
17. [Help! I can't stop!] Darn near anything with Smokey Robinson
as lead vocalist (When I worked in the Motown building in
Hollywood I got to see him in the elevator most days -- a
wonderful human being, too, by the testimony of many)
18. All Lightnin' Hopkins
19. All Leadbelly
20. Come to think of it, almost everything out of Stax/Volt's Muscle
Shoals horn and rythym-section dominated work in the late
'50s and early-to-late sixties, including Al Green
21. Jimi Hendrix's first two albums (got a soft spot in the heart for
Jimi, since he and I were both in the 101st Airborne division
in Vietnam)
22. Boozoo Chavis's cajun work, all of it
23. And last but not least, the CD I most often find myself loading into
the box at home these days, a wonderful cross-cultural blend
of American blues and African vocals from Ry Cooder and Ali
Farka-Toure
For me, it just ain't real music unless I can hear some Africa in it.
Love,
David
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 19:09:47 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Natural Law & Natural Rights: Part 3
If we follow the historical course of natural law through Western
civilization we will see something very interesting take place.
We are speaking about the Platonic natural law now. And if we look at the
geographical position of Greece we will see that it sat at the confluence of
great civilizations and peoples. A great deal of migrating through that
region took place before the Classical age of Greece was born. And afterwards
the area was a major thoroughfare between East and West. Of course initially
it was the Greeks going West - spec. to Southern Italy and Sicily.
Natural law went with them. And as it settled in the West it became
accepted, with some modifications by the Romans. Cicero had some nitpicking
to do with the Platonicness of it, but over all he was a big supporter of
natural law. Later on St. Augustine became a big fan of Platonic thought and
natural law - as much as he could and still be a good Catholic. Of course it
was throughly mixed with his own idiosyncratic perceptions of Christ's
message, the Fall etc. And this was transmitted to the Church. Slowly at
first. A good number of his points were rejected or argued over for quite a
long time, but eventually they won out (the concept of Original Sin was
finally adopted by the Church as a doctrine about a century after his death.)
Not too much later Justinian closed down the last of the Platonic
academies in Greece. The teachers went south - to end up in the Persian
Court, where they were well recieved. Later on, through all sorts of
history's little quirks various Islamic greats came into contact with Greek
thought. What they primarily had was a lot of Aristotle, some of Plato (just
what originals, what glosses, or *book reports* they had is still not clearly
known - though if anyone wants to study this ask me and I can ref. some great
studies) and they also had a fair amount of Plotinus though they didn't know
it, it would seem.
Eventually this all found its way, slowly, back to Europe. We have to
remember that with the death of Boethius in 525 a.d. at the order of
Theodoric (who believed the false charges that he was a traitor to the
barbarian) the last man in the West who knew both Greek and Latin died. The
West was not a pretty place to be at the time.
By the time that St. Aquinas shows up in the early 13th century Aristotle had
been trickling back into Europe for about a century - to the dismay of Church
Fathers and the delight of monks. Now Aristotle in certain critical ways had
made a mess of Plato's concept of natural law (via the whole issue of Forms)
but our brother Tommy A. didn't really know this. And despite all the
corruption of translations, etc., he managed to extract a pretty descent
version of natural law.
But St. Aquinas was still warm in his grave (well historically speaking) when
not only his ideas but Aristotle and the whole idea of Forms and natural law
came under attack by one William of Ockham. He did most his damage in his
rambling political diatribes against the Avignon Popes for Louis the
Barbarian (as he was so affectionately known to the Popes thereabouts at the
time.)
What Mr. Ockham did was essentially this: 1.) he helped to firmly establish
scientific materialism (though he was no scientist of course) through a
brilliant and well diserving attack on the incredibly stupid babblings of the
Scholastics. He developed what we have come to know as Ockham's razor (though
he never called it such.) This world was the ONLY world. There was no world
of Forms (as it was thought of at the time - but we need to remember it was a
very corrupted version of Plato's concept at the time - and there was
virtually no access to Platonic writings still at the time.) 2.) In so doing
he also attacked the idea of natural law - via the Forms etc. God had no need
of Forms (what we call as Baha'is attirubutes) such as Justice as some
intermediary between Him an us. God dispensed the Law as He saw fit. There
was no natural law that flowed through the Universe (it was a very tiny
universe back then remember.) There was God, on His throne and He watched us
and wacked us when we needed it. Thus the birth of the modern concept of
legal positivism.
It was both these concepts, as they were picked up by various northern
European teachers and taught at several universities in the north that
significantly influenced, let me stress this, in a fundamental way, Maritn
Luther. He found in the philosophy of Nominalism as it came to be known a
parallel current that he felt ran throughout the Old Testament. And even
though Luther used them to support the concept of Absolutism early on (until
the king and a bunch of princes came running after him, then he found great
arguements against the absolute rule of the king, but that is another funny
story) other folks found in Nominalism and the growing baby legal positivism
wonderful things to support the rising notions of natural rights and the
sacredness of the individual.
Both these were good. And of course most everyone could never have forseen
what all this would eventually degenerate into. Locke certainly couldn't have
- though his notion of natural law and its relationship to natural rights
sure would have confused Plato to no end.
As a matter of fact as the Enlightenment progressed against the excessive
egos of the various monarchies the foundation of the philosophy of
Individualism was being laid. It wasn't seen at the time. Indeed if we look
at the insistence on natural rights as laid out by the Founding Fathers we
see that they felt that each person had certain fundamental obligations to
their Creator and that from these obligations each person had a *natural
right* to fulfill them. No one, including the king, had any greater right to
interfere with a person and their felt obligation to their Lord.
So in the beginning for Madison etc., there was a reciperocal flow from
natrual law (even though by this time this concept was perhaps even more
fuzzy than when Locke had written his works nearly a centrury and a half
earlier) to natrual rights and back. It wasn't a matter of "I've got a right
to have the freedom to DO what I want." It was a matter seeing people as
having various duties and obligations to the World that were so fundamental
that they _must_ be allowed to carry them out.
In other words the inherent selfishness of the current concept of rights and
freedoms did not yet exist. But the groundwork had already been laid - way
back with Martin Luther. The development of the individual as their own
priest - which in so many ways was a big improvement over Catholicism - also
held the seeds of the rise of Individualism and the more modern form of
subjectivism.
More later . . .
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
From: Dave10018@aol.com
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 18:41:10 -0500
To: rabbana@a1.bmoa.umc.dupont.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: opposition to the Faith
Ahang wrote:
>However in reading Juan's list, I was struck by the quotation
>from Ellen Schrecker's "No Ivory Tower: McCarthyism and the
>Universities". I somewhat felt this passage which illustrated
>intolerance towards communism in this country was meant to draw a
>parallel between McCarthyism and the Faith's attitude towards
>Covenant-breakers. If this is an incorrect inference, then
>nevermind .... But if others read it the same, then I disagree
I didn't think Juan was referring to the excommunication of covenant-breakers
at all. I think he can certainly explain himself, but i am pretty sure that
is not what he was referring to. As i understood it, ( and if i understand
correctly I agree) Juan was thinking about Review and the tendency in Baha'i
discourse to adopt a tone of authoritative orthodoxy when discussing issues,
as if quotations from the Writings could by themselves settle everything(when
in fact if i am going to apply the wisdom of the teachings to a given
situation i must also make some effort to accurately understand that
situation in order to determine what applies.I have seen confident attempts
to relate the "Baha'i views on art" which so misunderstand the subject and so
narrowly construe the applicable Writings as to be complete and utter
nonsense.) Baha'is often try to adopt Shoghi Effendi's magnificent
authoritative style. I wish people would refrain from doing that, as, after
all, they do not have his authority. A narrowminded mindset sometimes takes
hold such that Baha'is are expected to hold to standards of speech and
behaviour which confuse conformity to local Baha'i customs and modes of
expression with the exalted standards of the Faith itself. Frequently such
modes are overformal, jargon-ridden and sanctimonious. If we would all be
more modest we could have more diverse expression and be less threatened by
it. On the other hand, I am not thrilled when Professor Coles or anybody
else presents his view of Baha'u'llah's intentions as more authoritative than
the House's view. To present alternative views can be stimulating, but to
insist on the correctness of one's own view in such matters, especially in
regard to genuinely difficult issues such as issues of sexuality or
membership of women on the House seems to me to verge on overstepping bounds,
particularly as this tends to raise false hopes in some who are or feel
themselves to be adversely affected by the House's decisions. We need
sometimes to be willing to search for understanding in such situations where
we are uncomfortable. I also note that people sometimes think they understand
the teachings when they have merely accepted dubious or even discredited
explanations for such difficult to grasp problems. And if I am guilty of
this last, I would appreciate it if people would challenge my ideas. I want
to arrive at understanding. In the search for undeerstanding we need to share
ideas and even experience. I am not afraid to do so and care not at all who
watches.
david taylor
=END=
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 96 18:04:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: "jrcole@umich.edu" <"jrcole@umich.edu"@esds01.mrgate.bmoa.umc.dupont.com>,
talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Baha'u'llah's "Surah of Blood"
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
What a magnificent gift! Thank you so very much for this superb
translation, Juan.
> I have done a literary analysis of this passage, published in
> *Poetics Today,* which I could share if there is demand.
Please do so. I for one would love to benefit from it.
With appreciation, ahang.
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Prayer & Meditation
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 18:35:16 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Talismanians -
I am reposting this message which I wrote for another list. I
thought that it would be especially appropriate in view of the upcoming
mysticism conference at Bosch (which I will not, unfortunately, be able
to attend). - Mark
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
I used to give seminars in meditation at the Long Island Baha'i
Center (New York) back in the early 1970s. And, of course, the beloved
Guardian said that we can be taught to meditate provided that we don't
allow any foolish or superstition ideas to creep into it and as long as
we don't develop rigid forms of meditative practice.
I have studied many meditative techniques over the years. Most
recently, I learned one directly from Rajesh Ananda, the head of FISU,
the largest meditation society in the United Kingdom (who traveled last
week here to Kansas City specifically to meet, and be interviewed, by
me). I considered it quite an honor to be with him. And, when he offered
to teach me his method of meditation, I gratefully accepted.
Rajesh's technique is similar to many others. If you have ever
studied meditation, or have discussed it with those who have, you would
probably notice the resemblance. Actually, I often recommend to people
that they read Herbert Benson's books, especially, _The Relaxation
Response_ and _Beyond the Relaxation Response_. Benson engaged in
empirical research on meditation and its physiological effects.
What I will do is to give you a method that works for me. It is
somewhat similar to Rajesh's technique, but it also takes some from
other approaches, including Shiv Dayal's (Hindu-Sikh) surat shabd yoga.
I have also tried to incorporate my understandings of certain statements
on meditation and reflection in our Baha'i primary sources. Obviously,
you can either chuck it or adopt it in some way for your own use .
I would suggest to a person that she or he first prays for
assistance and mentally concentrates on whatever she or he wishes to
link with (or receive knowledge about). Then, I further suggest that the
individual lays on her or his back - either on the floor or, if not, on
a hard mattress - and begins doing progressive relaxation, i.e.,
tightening your major muscle groups (each to the count of six) and then
releasing. Now, begin watching your breath. Do not attempt to regulate
it - just observe it. And when you have fallen into the rhythm of the
breath, begin mentally repeating the Greatest Name (Allah'u'Abha). Do
not concentrate on it - just repeat it. Don't worry if the pronunciation
begins to become altered or if it begins to fade into the background.
Just repeat and watch it. Do not attempt to blank your mind. But don't
*try* to think either. Just observe your thoughts - without focusing on
either them or on the Greatest Name. I suggest to people that they do
this exercise twice a day (20-30 minutes each time). Eventually, you
should start to notice a change in your thought patterns. This mantra
will be gradually re-orienting your thinking. The goal is not creating a
mental blankness - but purifying one's thoughts. That should happen by
itself - without your having to focus on them.
Hope that is helpful to someone.
To the Light,
Mark (Foster)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion * Full-Time College Faculty *
*Past (1995) Pres., Kansas Sociological Society * Owner, Baha'i Studies List *
*Director, Reality Sciences Institute * Co-Moderator, Another Baha'i List *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Staff, 3 CompuServe Religion Fora, incl. Baha'i Section Leader (72642,3105) *
*Chief Baha'i Chat Host, America Online (TFPMark) * mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us *
*Sysop, Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1) * mfoster@tyrell.net *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The Prophets of God have been the Servants of Reality; Their
Teachings constitute the science of reality." - `Abdu'l-Baha
"The sciences of today are bridges to reality; if then they lead not
to reality, naught remains but fruitless illusion." - `Abdu'l-Baha
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 20:26:10 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: Surah of the Blood
Dear All ,
I just love this stuff ! Anyone who can give me more Bahau llah please
do . Ahang if you stop with your Aschi work you are in trouble . I know
some people who . ..
and Juan I would be very intersted in the "Poetics Today " article .
warm regards ,
Terry
=END=
[end of 1/28/96 session]
Talisman emails received 1/29/96
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 21:08:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Jackson Armstrong-Ingram
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re sex and values
Further to Linda's comments: It is important to note that modern
unrbanization does tend to be more disadvantageous to women because it
changes the nature of the family as an economic unit. For example, when
peasant immigrants from europe continued to practice preganancy desertion
in the US the consequences were much different. When a peasant husband
went wandering in such parts as southern italy he could not take with him
the land, the chickens, the goat, etc., and the family's basic means of
subsistence remained available. In a new york tenement with the family
dependent on the husband's wage for subsistence, pregnancy desertion was
a disaster. There is similarly a disempowerment of women when nomads
either voluntarily or by governement force become sedentary. The changes
in the internal economy of the family and its relations with the broader
society generally undermine the position of women. The deleterious
effects of urbanization on previously non-urban familes are not tied to
any particular family system (let alone sexual ideology), howver, but are
related more to te family's socio-economic resources.
Like Bev, I also tend toward the Mrs Patrick Campbell philosphy that if
it isn't done in te street to frighten the horses it's a personal
matter. However, the problems arise when personal and group sexuality is
dragged into the street and used as a basis for judgments about broader
social worth and rights. Also, not all erotically associated behaviour
is confined to private occasions. Much public behaviour implies what may
be occuring in private and judgments may be made on te basis of those
implications (rightly or wrongly read) even more than on the basis of
known private acts.
Bev's point about the diversity of response to the human body is also
important. I am all too familiar with the kind of reaction to art that
Bev describes. My wife is an artist who specializes in the human
figure. There is almost nowhere in this area her work could be shown or
sold, especially if the figure is male. Also. it needs to be understood
(as I think came out from Bev's examples) that because a people expose
most of te body doesn't mean they have no standard of modesty. They are
as likely to distinguish between clothed and naked as victorian england
even if clothed means dusted with ashes.
Covering the body may be at least as much about prurience as modesty.
One of the things I find most distasteful about television 'standards' in
te US is the racist and sexist hierarchy applied to decisions about
'appropriateness' in showing the human body.
Jackson
=END=
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 96 18:56:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Baha'u'llah's "Surah of Blood"
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Dear Juan,
A quick question on translation of Nuqtih Ukhra (Quddus) as the
Ultimate Point (which Shoghi Effendi translate as the Last
Point).
Would it make sense to actually render this as "The Other Point"?
My understanding is that Akhir (Akher) can be understood as end
or conclusion, with fem. as Akherat (the end.)
But AkhAr means the next, the other one. With its fem. as UkhrA.
Therefore, why have both Shoghi Effendi and you rendered Nuqtih
Ukhra as the Last/Ultimate point? Both linguistically and
theologically, I wonder if "The Other Point" is not a more
accurate translation?
Of course I yield to your views on such matters.
With thanks, ahang.
=END=
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 21:09:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Jackson Armstrong-Ingram
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re sex and values
RE George Cary's comments:
There are many human societies with three genders.
Jackson
=END=
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 21:30:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Jackson Armstrong-Ingram
To: talisman
Subject: sex and values
I offer this story for contemplation. Like much of real life it is
complex in its implications.
Some decades ago, an international teaching committee received letters
complaining that a subsidized regional travel teacher was a notorious
homosexual who was bringing the faith into disrepute and demanding that
the committee withdraw their support from him. The committee sent in
their own agent to investiagte. It was found that there was considerable
jealousy of this travel teacher because he received financial support
from the committee. He had been seen leaving a brothel in one city. It
had been felt locally that this was an insufficient charge with which to
attack anyone's reputation so he had been accused of being a homosexual.
The committee's agent had a talk with the teacher about the conduct of
his private live and suggested to the committee that it continue its
support. Which was done.
It should be noted that the agent was a woman as were most of the
committee. It might also be noted that this committee had developed a
unanimous policy that all matters were to be considered confidential to
the committee and its agents and only such information as the committee
agreed upon was to be shared with its NSA. The committee had developed
this policy as it believed, based on its experience, that its NSA did not
understand the cultural conditions under which the work supervised by the
committee was
undertaken and as it had also found that information it had given to the
NSA and asked to be kept confidential had been publicly released by the
NSA and put individuals in jeopardy.
One member of the committee was also a member of the NSA. This member
fully supported the policy, and would only share with the NSA information
which had
been specifically released by the committee. This NSA member was shortly
thereafter appointed a Hand of the Cause. The local teacher was later a
Counselor.
Jackson
=END=
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 21:04:16 -0600 (CST)
Message-Id: <199601290304.VAA03675@mailhost.onramp.net>
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Talisman"
Dear Talismanists,
I met a man when I was living in Juneau, Alaska who I taught the Faith
very subtly for several years. I never explained anything about the
Faith but I let him see that I was a member. One day he told me that he
had known about the Baha'i Faith for quite some time. He told me he was
first introduced to the Faith when he was living in Missoula, Montana.
He told me the people who informed him about Baha'u'llah's teachings were
very strange. He said he presumed that I was the same. But now for
reasons he didn't really explain he wanted to meet the Baha'is and read
about it. I told him from what he had told me they sounded like
covenant-breakers and I tried to explain what that was. He became a
Baha'i soon after our initial discussion.
As luck would have it I was watching Michael Moore's TV NATION (Michael
Moore of "Roger and Me" fame and onetime editor of Mother Jones Magazine)
two summers ago and they were doing a story on a group in Missoula,
Montana who were apparently the same people who had spoken to the man I
refered to earlier. Michael treated them in a very satirical manner. And
they did, in fact, seem strange. They told Michael that there would be a
world-wide calamity the next week-- so he had a scene, as part of the
piece, with him calling them from New York a week later asking why we
were all still here.
I'm a little curious how they came to his attention but they were not
identified as Baha'is (thank God) but there was a scene with them all
sitting near a picture of Abdu'l-Baha.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 22:00:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Jackson Armstrong-Ingram
To: talisman
Subject: sex and values
Unknown to most Baha'is, anyone who has an acquaintance with gay and
lesbian (or indeed simply modern American) history who glances through
the volumes of The Baha'i World will find many individuals associated with
the faith who were known to live a homosexual (and indeed bisexual or
promiscuously heterosexual) lifestyle who are singled out for praise,
both editorial and in Guardian's letters. There are many more from whom
praise of the faith is reproduced to attest to its public acceptability.
The lifestyles of these individuals was in many cases an open secret in
certain social circles, circles which included members of the American
NSA.
When Shoghi Effendi felt that individuals were acting in a way that was
scandalous to the faith he made no bones about telling them so. For
example, there is a letter on his behalf to the widow of a prominent
Baha'i who was displeased by her late husband's will. They had not
really lived together as husband and wife for a long time and he simply
left her a life interest in one of his properties and a reasonable life
income. He left the bulk of his estate elsewhere. The letter on behalf
of the Guardian informs her that she knows perfectly well that the will
represents her husband's true wishes and that the sanctity of a will is a
principle of the faith; if she follows through on her threat to
make a scandal and challenge the will, Shoghi Effendi will expel her from
the faith.
A few years ago I was asked to present a paper at a conference on the
work of a late well-known Baha'i. I told the representative of the
conference committee that I felt the committee should be aware that there
was no way to discuss this individual's work with any intellectual
integrity without discussing his homosexual activities as they formed an
integral aspect of his literary development. (It is certainly not always
the case that an individual's private life is crucial to understanding
their art, but in this case it is. Also, the person had indicated before
his death that he wished that aspect of his work to be known.) If I gave
a paper, it would have to deal with these matters. I said that I was
telling them this as I had no wish to simply spring this material on
them unexpected and that it was
entirely up to the committee if they still wished to invite me. I also
mentioned that the non-Baha'i academics who were being invited to take
part in the conference were well aware of these facts. The committee
decided to cancel the conference. The individual's name and artistic
repute continues to be used to represent the faith.
It seems to me that it is of the essence of colonialism or imperialism to
appropriate products for your own benefit but deny the actuality or
authenticity of the life experience of the producers.
I don't think this implies that you have to
affirm their life experience on only their terms, but I do think it
may suggest that you should
not chose to benefit from it on only your own terms.
Jackson
=END=
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 22:41:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand
To: "Don R. Calkins"
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Relationship between violent history and viole
Dear Don,
Thanks for your reply, it would be interesting to hear more about abused
children and the long term effect of that abuse on their own conflict
attitudes and behaviours. But what do you think of the notion of a
relationship between violent history and violent behaviour in a community
or nation?
Regards,
Cheshmak
=END=
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 20:55:50 -0700
To: Juan R Cole , talisman@indiana.edu
From: alma@indirect.com (Alma Engels)
Subject: Re: Baha'u'llah's "Surah of Blood"
At 06:06 PM 1/28/96 -0500, Juan R Cole wrote:
>
>I hope you all enjoy it.
Enjoy isn't the word for it, Juan. Rather for me this is the very food of
the soul and I hunger so often even when I don't realize it. Many thanks
for providing those of us who do not know the original languages and/or have
no access to the Writings in the original something substantial and soul
nourishing. My cup would indeed run over if the other translators on
Talisman would also share with us their provisional translations.
In peace,
Alma
To tread the path of Love Alma Engels
Is no mere game. alma@indirect.com
For only one
Out of many thousands
Can persevere in His Love. (Tahirih)
=END=
From: iskandar@ns.moran.com
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 96 22:50:31 PST
Subject: RE: sex and values
To: talisman@indiana.edu
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Sun, 28 Jan 1996 22:00:53 -0500 (EST)
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 22:00:53 -0500 (EST)
From: Jackson Armstrong-Ingram
To: talisman
Subject: sex and values
Message-ID:
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Sender: owner-talisman@indiana.edu
Precedence: bulk
Unknown to most Baha'is, anyone who has an acquaintance with gay and
lesbian (or indeed simply modern American) history who glances through
the volumes of The Baha'i World will find many individuals associated with
the faith who were known to live a homosexual (and indeed bisexual or
promiscuously heterosexual) lifestyle who are singled out for praise,
both editorial and in Guardian's letters. There are many more from whom
praise of the faith is reproduced to attest to its public acceptability.
The lifestyles of these individuals was in many cases an open secret in
certain social circles, circles which included members of the American
NSA.
When Shoghi Effendi felt that individuals were acting in a way that was
scandalous to the faith he made no bones about telling them so. For
example, there is a letter on his behalf to the widow of a prominent
Baha'i who was displeased by her late husband's will. They had not
really lived together as husband and wife for a long time and he simply
left her a life interest in one of his properties and a reasonable life
income. He left the bulk of his estate elsewhere. The letter on behalf
of the Guardian informs her that she knows perfectly well that the will
represents her husband's true wishes and that the sanctity of a will is a
principle of the faith; if she follows through on her threat to
make a scandal and challenge the will, Shoghi Effendi will expel her from
the faith.
A few years ago I was asked to present a paper at a conference on the
work of a late well-known Baha'i. I told the representative of the
conference committee that I felt the committee should be aware that there
was no way to discuss this individual's work with any intellectual
integrity without discussing his homosexual activities as they formed an
integral aspect of his literary development. (It is certainly not always
the case that an individual's private life is crucial to understanding
their art, but in this case it is. Also, the person had indicated before
his death that he wished that aspect of his work to be known.) If I gave
a paper, it would have to deal with these matters. I said that I was
telling them this as I had no wish to simply spring this material on
them unexpected and that it was
entirely up to the committee if they still wished to invite me. I also
mentioned that the non-Baha'i academics who were being invited to take
part in the conference were well aware of these facts. The committee
decided to cancel the conference. The individual's name and artistic
repute continues to be used to represent the faith.
It seems to me that it is of the essence of colonialism or imperialism to
appropriate products for your own benefit but deny the actuality or
authenticity of the life experience of the producers.
I don't think this implies that you have to
affirm their life experience on only their terms, but I do think it
may suggest that you should
not chose to benefit from it on only your own terms.
Jackson
I hope I am not considered rude for asking this question: Anyone knows, for a
fact, that Charles
Mason Remey was homosexual? I have heard from more than one source. Just
curious.
Bye!
Iskandar
-------------------------------------
Name: Iskandar Hai, M.D.
E-mail: iskandar@ns.moran.com
Date: 01/28/96
Time: 22:50:31
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 23:29:48 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Memories of Ashchi -- part 2
I am enormously grateful to Ahang for taking the time to post information on
this manuscript. I am fascinated. Please go on.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 23:33:47 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Vulnerability
> A related issue: Does anybody seriously think that "nobody@replay.com"
> would be sending us that garbage if he/she didn't sense a
> vulnerability somewhere?
Yes, I most certainly do. These people are kooks and will spread their silly
stuff around at any opportunity--appropriate or inappropriate. They are not
waiting for "vulnerabilities." I have had to deal with Covenant-breakers of
several stripes both as a member of a local Spiritual Assembly, as an
individual, and on special projects. And, I DO assure you that there is
nothing rational about their methods or their arguments.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 23:15:42 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Erotic Imagery
Per Tony Lee's request. john walbridge
*****
John Walbridge3125 S. Snoddy RoadBloomington IN 47401
Erotic ImageryIn the Allegorical Writings ofBaha'u'llah
In the Qur'an the "blacked-eyed maidens" (Arab., Pers.: hur `in,
hence the English houris) are the beautiful white-skinned, dark-eyed
virgins destined for the believers in Paradise. The Islamic tradition
followed the Qur'an in classing them among the delights enjoyed by the
believers in Paradise, whether taken symbolically or with literalist
carnality. Though in the writings of Baha'u'llah there are isolated
references to the maids of heaven serving the believers in the next life
(TB:189 (Suriy-i-Vafa, & 23), almost always they are symbols of the
inaccessible holiness of God. They are "behind the veil of concealment"
(GWB:153) "in their celestial chambers" (GWB:69).
It is THE Maiden (huriyyih), however, that plays the most
important role in Baha'u'llah's writings, particularly in the visionary
allegorical writings of the Baghdad period such as the Tablet of the
Maiden, the Ode of the Dove, the Deathless Youth, the Maids of Wonder,
the Holy Mariner, and other similar tablets. In these tablets the image
of the unveiling of the bride symbolizes the joyfulness of Baha'u'llah's
spiritual experience. In some of these tablets Baha'u'llah weaves a
spell of sexual yearning, drawing the reader into the intensity of His
spiritual experience, only to shatter the atmosphere with haunting images
of betrayal, heartbreak, and death.
The Maiden Revealed
Baha'u'llah states that while He was in the dungeon of the
Siyah-Chal in 1852-53, He had a vision of a Maiden: (Suratu'l-Haykal, in
GPB:101-2). While engulfed in tribulations, I heard a most wondrous, a
most sweet voice, calling above My head. Turning My face, I beheld a
Maiden--the embodiment of the remembrance of the name of my
Lord--suspended in the air before Me. So rejoiced was she in her very
soul that her countenance shone with the ornament of the good-pleasure of
God, and her cheeks glowed with the brightness of the all-Merciful.
Betwixt earth and heaven she was raising a call which captivated the
hearts and minds of men. She was imparting to both My inward and outward
being tidings which rejoiced my soul, and the souls of God's honored
servants. Pointing with her finger unto My head, she addressed all who
are in heaven and all who are on earth, sayng: "By God! This is the
Best-Beloved of the worlds, and yet ye comprehend not. This is the
Beauty of God amongst you, and the power of His sovereignty within you,
could ye but understand. This is the Mystery of God and His treasure,
the Cause of God and His Glory unto all who are in the kingdoms of
Revelation and of creation, if ye be of them that perceive."
The Maiden thereafter appears as the personification of the
spirit of God. In these works the Maiden's emergence from her hidden
chamber symbolizes the appearance of Baha'u'llah's revelation in the
world, and her afflictions mirror Baha'u'llah's. In the Surah of the
Bayan Baha'u'llah identifies with Himself a passage in the Qayyumu'l-Asma
in which the Bab had referred to "the Maid of Heaven begotten by the
Spirit of Baha" (Suratu'l-Bayan, cited in GWB:129. Qayyumu'l-Asma, ch.
29, in SWB:54). `Abdu'l-Baha identifies the Maiden with the New
Jerusalem (SWAB:3). Shoghi Effendi identifies her with "the Most Great
Spirit," "symbolized . . . by the Sacred Fire, the Burning Bush, the
Dove, and the Angel Gabriel" (GPB:101).
The Maiden in Love
The mystic and wondrous Bride, hidden ere this beneath the
veiling of utterance (bayan), hath now, by the grace of God and His
divine favor, been made manifest even as the resplendent light shed by
the beauty of the Beloved. (Pers. HW 83)
In His allegories depicting the coming of revelation, Baha'u'llah
turns to the image of the bride. In the Middle East the bride is brought
veiled to her husband amidst great excitement and commotion. When she is
alone with him, he lifts her veil and looks upon the beauty of his bride
for the first time. The bride too, in this culture where arranged
marriages are the norm, now may freely behold her husband. Baha'u'llah
expresses His spiritual joy with such imagery. A particularly fine
example is the Tablet of the Deathless Youth (Ghulam al-Khuld), composed
in honor of the anniversary of the Declaration of the Bab.
The Arabic portion of this tablet is written in rhymed prose, an
Arabic literary form that uses irregular rhyme and rhythm and occupies a
place between poetry and prose. Like some other tablets of this period,
notably the Holy Mariner, short verses alternate with refrains. The
tablet concludes with a section in formal Persian prose.
The tablet begins with the announcement that it is "in
commemoration of what hath been made manifest in the year sixty"--i.e.,
the Declaration of the Bab. The tablet describes how the gates of
paradise open and the Deathless Youth--symbolizing the Bab--comes out and
stands in the midst of heaven, dazzling all the spiritual beings with his
beauty. When the gates of Paradise swung wide and the Holy Youth
came forth, lo! in His hand was a serpent plain! Rejoice! This
is the Deathless Youth, come with a gushing
spring.Upon His face a veil woven by the fingers of power and
might. Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty
Name. Upon His head a crown of beauty, light for the people of
every heaven, every earth. Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth,
come with a
transcendant Cause. Tresses of spirit hung upon His shoulders,
black like musk
upon a bright and luminous pearl.Rejoice! This is the Deathless
Youth, come with a wondrous
Cause.
(My trans.)
Then the gates of heaven open a second time and the Maid of
Heaven appears--the personification of Baha'u'llah's spirit of
revelation. Her beauty, her song, and the lock of hair that slips from
beneath her veil likewise dazzle the creatures of earth and heaven. She
stands before the Youth and lifts the veil from his face. When his face
is revealed, the pillars of the throne of God tremble and all creatures
are struck dead. Then the Tongue of the Unseen is heard proclaiming that
the eyes of the ancients longed to behold this Youth. The Youth raises
his eyes. By a word he restores the spirits of the creatures of heaven
and with a look he raises up the people of the earth. With his glance he
indicates only a few of these, and then he returns to his place in paradise.
The tablet continues in Persian, proclaiming to the people that
the true morn is dawned, the eternal wine is flowing, the fire burns
again on Sinai--appealing to the people to heed the call of the Bab and
hinting at Baha'u'llah's own station.
Since this tablet is in praise of the Bab, it stresses the beauty
of the Youth. The attraction of the Maiden to the Youth symbolizes
Baha'u'llah's own love for the Bab. However, the tablet also hints at
Baha'u'llah's approaching open proclamation of prophethood.
In a society where women are seen only by their closest
relatives, beauty is revealed through hints, and the poetic description
of love and beauty relishes these hints. The veil to be proper must
completely cover the woman's hair. When the Maiden "let slip a lock of
Her hair from beneath Her luminous veil," she revealed her beauty to the
onlookers. But to let the hair slip from beneath the veil is also a sign
of distraction: the beauty of the Youth, we are to understand, has so
shaken the Maiden that she becomes careless of proprieties.
With language that is beautiful and openly erotic, but in no way
crude, Baha'u'llah weaves an atmosphere of sexual longing that conveys
His spiritual experience in a very direct way. Over the end of the
allegory, however, there is a shadow of disappointment that grows larger
in other works.
The Maiden Heartbroken
Surely the most remarkable of Baha'u'llah's erotic allegories is
the Tablet of the Maiden. This is an Arabic tablet composed in Baghdad.
It is one of the tablets that Baha'u'llah ordered destroyed because the
people were unready for it. It was saved at the pleas of Mirza qa Jan,
Baha'u'llah's secretary. For this we must be grateful.
The tablet begins with a prayer of ecstatic praise of God that
turns into an account of a meeting between Baha'u'llah and the heavenly
maiden.
When God desires to manifest His beauty and glory, He sent forth
a maiden who had been concealed for all eternity in the pavillion of
holiness. Her beauty strikes dumb all the dwellers in heaven and
illuminates the earth. She walks through the air and stands before
Baha'u'llah. He is lost in bewilderment at her beauty.
I found Myself sick with love and passionate longing for her. I
lifted my hand and drew back the hem of her veil from her shoulder. Her
hair fell in twining curls nearly to her feet. As the winds stirred it
to the right from off her shoulderblade, the heavens and the earth were
perfumed with its fragrance. . . . At one time I beheld her like the
sweet water of life flowing in the realities of beings. . . Another
moment I beheld her like unto fire kindled in the divine tree.
(my translation)
Then she came closer to Him and spoke, and her voice was like a song
beyond all words, letters, and sounds, and Baha'u'llah understood all
spiritual meanings in her voice and became further lost in the
bewilderment of passionate longing.I raised My hand once more and
uncovered her breast that had been hidden beneath her gown. It shone so
as to illuminate the heavens with its scintillating light. All created
things were bright with its manifestation and its emanation. Myriad suns
shone with its light.
Baha'u'llah beholds his mystic bride in astonishment and love, while the
maids of heaven in their chambers on high watch in wonder.
But now the mood changes. The Maiden is puzzled. She asks Him
who He is. He tells her only, "A servant of God and the son of His
maidservant." But she is not put off by this evasive reply. She has
detected an extraordinary sadness in Baha'u'llah and questions Him
closely about it, becoming more and more agitated as she comprehends the
depth of His sorrows. But He refuses to tell her of His sorrows, for she
will not be able to bear to hear a single word of them.Now when she
comprehended the trembling of My inner being, the moaning of My heart,
the wailing of My essence, how My bones burned and My skin scorched, how
my soul was unquiet and my body troubled, she called to me, "Hast Thou no
mother to grieve for Thine affliction?" I answered, "I know not." "Hast
Thou no sister to weep for Thy fate, no helper to aid Thee in Thy
troubles and to be Thy companion in Thy loneliness?" I said to her, "By
my sorrows unrelieved by any joy, ask Me nothing, but look to My heart
that that which thou seekest may become apparent to thee."
She lowers her head to behold His heart in His breast. But though she
searches all his limbs and organs, she cannot find His heart and she
realizes that His sorrows have destroyed it. She looks up at Him in
horror, telling Him that it would have been better had He never been
born. They embrace and weep together. Once more she examines His inner
being, realizing that His sorrows have entirely destroyed His liver--also
a seat of emotions in Persian symbolism. She asks Him if He is in fact
the Beloved of the worlds and whether His sorrows are from the people of
the Qur'an or the people of the Bayan--the Muslims or the Babis. Then
she throws herself on the ground at His feet and dies. He washes her
with His tears and shrouds her with His own robe.Then I brought My mouth
close to her right ear and told her the glad-tidings of that which none
can bear to hear from Me. When I had told her this, she trembled at the
Word of God. . .
He takes her body back to the place in paradise from which she originally
came. The tablet ends with Baha'u'llah's challenge to those who claim to
possess understanding to interpret the meaning of His vision.
The tone has changed. While Baha'u'llah's joy at the Maiden is
undiminished, the Maiden is tortured by His sorrows. This is an old
theme in Shi`i Islam where the sufferings of the martyred Imam Husayn are
defined in part by the grief of his womenfolk. These sufferings, we
infer, result from His rejection and persecution by the Muslims and the
Babis. It is betrayal that has slain the Maid of Heaven with grief for
the sufferings of Baha'u'llah.
This theme is repeated in the Tablet of the Holy Mariner. A Maid
of Heaven sends one of her handmaids to try to find the scent of
faithfulness to "the Youth," but she finds that "the Youth hath remained
lone and forlorn in the land of exile in the hands of the ungodly." She
returns with this message to heaven, and having delivered it, she dies.
The tone is one of despair and resignation amidst joy. We may
compare this to the complex of emotions that surrounded the events of the
Garden of Ridvan: joy and triumph overshadowed by the uncertainty of
impending exile and of internal and external enemies.
The Maiden Afterwards
Through the next ten years the great crises of His ministry
struck Baha'u'llah and then passed. He announced His prophetic claim
openly and won the acceptance of the vast majority of the Babis. His
brother Mirza Yahya, the appointed successor of the Bab, betrayed Him but
failed to inflict permanent damage on His faith. The Turkish authorities
banished Him twice and imprisoned Him but failed to destroy Him. In time
He won the respect of the authorities, the guards, and the people of the
prison-city of `Akka. Prison conditions eased. Even the death of His
son seemed to serve as the means by which pilgrims were able to come.
Even the folly of His disciples in murdering four of His enemies failed
to produce more than a temporary setback.
The healing of these psychic and spiritual wounds and the
increasing tranquility of Baha'u'llah's later years is seen in the theme
of the Maiden in some of Baha'u'llah's later works.
In the Suratu'l-Bayan, a tablet revealed in `Akka, Baha'u'llah
speaks once more of the Maiden:Say: Step out of Thy holy chamber, O Maid
of Heaven, inmate of the Exalted Paradise!. . . . Hear, then, the sweet,
the wondrous accent of the Voice that cometh from the Throne of Thy Lord,
the inaccessible, the Most High. Unveil Thy face, and manifest the
beauty of the black-eyed Damsel, and suffer not the servants of God to be
deprived of the light of Thy shining countenance.
The tone is different. No longer is Baha'u'llah the exile enduring His
sorrows in secret. He is the King seated on the Throne, the very voice
of God. Now He calls forth the Maid of Heaven, the spirit of His
revelation. Likewise, the pain of betrayal no longer dominates His
thoughts:Grieve not if Thou hearest the sighs of the dwellers of the
earth, or the voice of the lamentation of the denizens of heaven. Leave
them to perish on the dust of extinction. Let them be reduced to
nothingness, inasmuch as the flame of hatred hath been kindled within
their breasts. . . Thus have We decreed Thy destiny.
The enmity, the hatred, the faithlessness of those who tormented Him are
now a matter of indifference to Baha'u'llah.
On 1 March 1873, the Birthday of the Bab according to the lunar
calendar, Baha'u'llah had a vision. As He was sitting, a luminous maiden
dressed in white came in to Him and removed her veil. She was of
surpassing beauty; "We beheld the black hairs upon her white neck, as
though night and day embraced in this most glorious spot." She walked
about, lost in wonderment in the presence of Baha'u'llah. She called to
Him, "May my soul be a ransom for Thine imprisonment, O mystery of the
unseen in the kingdom of the world." Reaching behind Baha'u'llah's neck
she drew Him near. Then she leaned her head against the fingers of one
hand "as though the cresent moon were united with the full moon." Then
she said to Him, "May all being be a sacrifice for Thine affliction, O
King of the earth and heaven! Why hast Thou placed Thyself amongst such
as these in the city of `Akka? Repair to Thine other dominions, places
whereon the eyes of the people of names have never fallen."
The tone of Baha'u'llah's telling of this vision is very
different from those of a decade earlier in Baghdad. The atmosphere of
intense sexual longing is gone, replaced by an inner tranquility. The
burning conflict between the spiritual exaltation of revelation and the
hostility and betrayal of His enemies is also gone, replaced by a lofty
indifference the events of the lower world. In this tablet Baha'u'llah
looks toward another world. Thus Shoghi Effendi interpreted this tablet
as a prophecy of His death nineteen years later.
Conclusions
Thus We recount for you, O concourse of Paradise, the
vision of eternity. Interpret it for me, if ye understand the meaning of
the vision of the spirit!
(Tablet of the Maiden)
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 00:11:12 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Thanks for playing, but...
>Let me emphasize this yet again: in refusing to accept the theory that
>Baha'u'llah would endorse the system widely called "democracy" I am BY NO
>MEANS trying to say that He would endorse any kind of dictatorship!
Baha'u'llah did endorse the system widely known as democracy. He did this
explicitly and repeatedly. He particularly recommended the form of
Government employed in England. These quotations have been posted here. I
do not understand why they should be problematic.
Tony
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Top Ten Book List
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 23:08:33 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Talismanians -
I can never remember the names of my favorite songs. I just know
what I like (mostly "house"). Anyway, here's the book list (and I am, in
order to make the list more varied, excluding those titles which are
specifically "Baha'i"):
1. Social and Cultural Dynamics (Pitirim Sorokin)
2. The Stormy Search for the Self (C. and S. Grof)
3. The New Transformers (Jacqueline Small)
4. The Grundrisse (Karl Marx)
5. Moral Education (Emile Durkheim)
6. Kashmir Saivism: The Central Philosophy of Tantrism (K. Mishra)
7. Paradigm Shift (Reb Zalman Schachter-Shalomi)
8. On the Mystical Shape of the Godhead (Gershom Scholem)
9. Figures of Speech in the Bible (E.W. Bullinger)
10. New Testament Light (George Lamsa)
To the Light,
Mark (Foster)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion * Full-Time College Faculty *
*Past (1995) Pres., Kansas Sociological Society * Owner, Baha'i Studies List *
*Director, Reality Sciences Institute * Co-Moderator, Another Baha'i List *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Staff, 3 CompuServe Religion Fora, incl. Baha'i Section Leader (72642,3105) *
*Chief Baha'i Chat Host, America Online (TFPMark) * mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us *
*Sysop, Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1) * mfoster@tyrell.net *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The Prophets of God have been the Servants of Reality; Their
Teachings constitute the science of reality." - `Abdu'l-Baha
"The sciences of today are bridges to reality; if then they lead not
to reality, naught remains but fruitless illusion." - `Abdu'l-Baha
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
From: Dave10018@aol.com
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 00:32:05 -0500
To: Alethinos@aol.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Natural law and its distortions: A short answer to Mr. Taylor
In a message dated 96-01-28 13:09:44 EST, Alethinos@aol.com writes:
>Subj: Natural law and its distortions: A short answer to Mr. Taylor
>Date: 96-01-28 13:09:44 EST
>From: Alethinos@aol.com
>Sender: owner-talisman@indiana.edu
>To: talisman@indiana.edu
>
>Dear Mr. Taylor:
>
>Since you asked in that ever-sweet tone of yours here are some quotes. You
>might also read Ruhiyyih Rabbani's "The Guardian of the Baha'i Faith" where
>she devotes quite a few pages to this subject. She even uses the same
>metaphor at one point. But I don't want to spoil it foryou so you'll have to
>read the whole book.
Jim, I don't know why after all this time you would assume without any cause
that I have not read something! I find it a bit highhanded when you do. I
certainly have read "the Gaurdian of the Baha'i Faith," and "The Priceless
Pearl" as well. My most recent of many readings of "The World Order of
Baha'u'llah" and "The Promised Day Is Come" and "Advent of Divine
Justice"was last spring and summer when I was writing to Talisman describing
the Gaurdian's analysis of the decadence of the old world order and the
emergence of a new world order through the impetus of the Faith of
Baha'u'llah-- and contrasting it with yours.
Unfortunately I do not have copies of those posts on disk, or I would repost
one or two.I stand by my description. I think it is truer than yours to the
Gaurdian's view of society and his discription of the historical processes
involved. Eric has been helping me recreate my archive(destroyed by Faust)
In brief, I think a reading of Promised Day Is Come, the World Order
Letters, Advent of Divine Justice, whatever you want, supports the view that
Shoghi Effendi did not view the temporary triumph of materialism in our
presentday disordered society as an expression of the unique disabilities of
Western man,as you have argued, but as the result of a process of decadence
set in motion by the failure of the centers of authority of present day
civilizations, both of the "West" and the "East"(by which he meant the Near
East) to respond to the summons of Baha'u'llah.
Shoghi Effendi's description of this "decadence" moreover, was consistant
with the use of this term by European writers such as Spengler.
All of the quotes you have used in your post, as well as the books they come
from as well as Ruhiyyih Khanum's discussion of " a materialism reaching a
state of development in the West unrivalled by the --decadence it had
invariably produced in past civilizations when their decline set
in.--"(Gaurdian of the Baha'i Faith,p.177,emphasis mine) are, I believe, more
consistantly and truly understood in terms of this --dynamic-- concept of
rise and fall of civilizations than your reference to old "templates" which
sounds more like this old axiology business I find so unconvincing.
>I would suggest that these few quotes, along with virtually all the ones
>dealing with the New World Order, the Administrative Order, the Old World
>Order can be correctly viewed in light of the metaphor that was used, i.e.
>the tearing away of old spiritual/mental templates that have guided
>humankinds Path for millenia. It is either that or Baha'u'llah has come to
>simply lay down pure silk over a bloodstained, sullied and tattered old
robe.
>
No, He has set a process of destruction in motion simply by bringing the
Truth. By His appearance He has stripped all the old centers of authority of
their legitimacy, leaving civilization in a deepening chaos. As Ruhiyyih
Khanum puts it on pages 79 and 80 of "The Gaurdian of the Baha'i
Faith"(unfortunately I lost my copy of "The Priceless Pearl" and it is now
out of print) "Fundamentally it was because of this new Faith, the "priceless
gem of Divine Revelation enshrining the Spirit of God and incarnating His
Purpose for all mankind in this age" as Shoghi Effendi described it, that the
world was "undergoing such agonies."
>I would also suggest, if you feel the metaphor was not apt to re-read:
>Individual Rights and Freedoms, The Promise of World Peace, and A Wider
>Horizon.
>jim harrison
>
>Alethinos@aol.com
>
>
I surely will. In the meantime I would suggest that you listen to the
Beatles. The Gaurdian is not Chairman Mao.
sweetly,
dave taylor
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 00:40:25 -0500 (EST)
From: Jonah Winters
To: talisman
Subject: THANKS for translations
I'd like to offer a public thank-you to Juan, Ahang, Stephen, Chris, and
anyone I may be forgetting for taking the time and trouble to share with
us so much primary source material. If you ever feel that you are wasting
time sending data out to anonymous cyberspace, please know that
everything is greaty appreciated, even if sometimes we forget to say so.
Thanks!! -Jonah
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jonah and Kari Winters
33 Endean Avenue / Toronto, Ontario / M4M-1W5 / (416) 461-3527
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 01:02:27 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: Jonah Winters
Cc: talisman
Subject: Re: Arabic (or Persian?) Question
Jonah: Well, we are all awaiting *your* translations and primary source
work down the line, inshallah.
The original Arabic is the verb fada: in the feminine imperative, meaning
to sacrifice oneself for someone.
You should get the original Tablets of Gleanings, which are collected in
*Muntakhabati az athar-i Hadrat-i Baha'u'llah,* published by the German
publishing trust in 1984. I think it is still in print.
cheers Juan Cole, History, Univ. of Michigan
On Sat, 27 Jan 1996, Jonah Winters wrote:
>
> Dear learned Talismanians, could some kind soul tell me the original verb
> used, and in which language, for "offer up" in the following quote: "If
> Thou smellest from any one the smell of the love of Thy Lord, offer up
> Thyself for him, for We have created Thee to this end, and have
> covenanted with Thee, from time immemorial, and in the presence of the
> congregation of Our well-favored ones, for this very purpose." It is from
> Gleanings, bottom of page 283.
>
> Usually, the verb seems to be used in Baha'u'llah's writings in the sense
> of "to give," as in "offer up thy life in the path of God." Here, however,
> it seems as though Baha'u'llah might be telling the Maiden to "make
> herself available sexually." ??
>
> (My interests are not prurient; I'm writing a paper on mystic eroticism.)
>
> ;-)
>
> Thanks so much. --Jonah
>
> =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
> Jonah and Kari Winters
> 33 Endean Avenue / Toronto, Ontario / M4M-1W5 / (416) 461-3527
>
>
>
=END=
From: Dave10018@aol.com
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 01:30:28 -0500
To: jarmstro@sun1.iusb.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: sex and values
Jackson,
Your book on the Mashriq'ul Ashkar and Music is brilliant, as are your posts
here. This especially. There is obviously a lot of history which could
illuminate the tradition of tolerance in the Faith. We need to understand and
in some way acknowledge it. I suspect that it is a subtle tradition,
requiring subtle acknowledgement.(my views may be "far out") but as i have
noted, an individual such as Mark Tobey winds up being acknowledged as a
homosexual by everyone but Baha'is, who can end up looking pretty silly.
Natalie Barney,Laura Barney's sister and Alice Barney's daughter, is another
interesting example.(as you no doubt are aware, not a Baha'i, but an open
and uninhibited lesbian and hostess of a very active Paris salon for many
years)
with admiration,
david taylor
=END=
From: Dave10018@aol.com
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 01:30:40 -0500
To: TLCULHANE@aol.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Talisman Survey
In a message dated 96-01-28 14:34:36 EST, TLCULHANE@aol.com writes:
>
>
Talisman has been the most important stimulus for every aspect of my Baha'i
life since Baha'i in Recovery Fellowship. It has proven more durable and far
reaching, bringing all the benefit of involvement in the Association of
Baha'i Studies, only more so. Through reading stimulating and urgent posts,
translations, speculations et cetera. Also, posting my own contributions has
been a stimulus to sharpen my thought and writing, a great help!
The answer to all of your questions, Terry, is Yes!
dave taylor
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 01:21:37 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: Surah of Blood ..again
Dear Alll ,
Perhaps Juan , John , hang anybody could answer a couple of questions
for me .
My mind is swimming (in a good way ) from some of the passages in this
tablet .
It seems to me that the voice or *Speaker* changes throughout this Surah
? If I may use the Tablet of all Food schema of Hahut , Lahut , Jabarut etc.
it appears that sometimes the voice is God as Hahut speaking , then Lahut as
the Reality of Prophethood, the GLory of God , then the specific
manifestation of Bahau llah as Husayn Ali who in turns addresses us . Am I
nuts or is this happenning?
Gosh I love these kinds of pieces - especially when they start referrring
to the *Beauty * and *Countenances* and the whoops . . Im seeing (mer)
Maids again . Im tellin ya thery are She is everywhere :)
These are Baha u llahs narrative works that I find so inexplicably
powerful - to paraphrase Sandy the other day . these are the kinds of
scripture which re-create me as I read . Does anyone else get this feeling ?
Im just stunned !
warm regards ,
Terry
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 01:38:49 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Natural law and its distortions: A short answer to Mr. Taylor
Dear Mr. Taylor:
Of course you're going to fume because here I am going to agree with you. You
hated it when I did it last time and you're bound to have the same reaction
this time.
A very great deal of the suffering of the world comes from the rejection of
the leaders of governments as well as the religious leaders of Baha'u'llah's
message. True. No doubt. Absolutely.
And the Guardian did not condemn the material advances of the West. He
condemned the philosophy of materialism just as his Grandfather did. So once
again, and please let me make this _very clear_: I have not said the Guardian
was condemning, wholesale, the West. Nor was he condemning most of the
wonders and treasures of Western civilization.
The rejection of Baha'u'llah by the leaders cannot though, (I feel) be seen
in tbe shallow terms that most Baha'is give it. And by this I mean that of
course Baha'u'llah knew He would be rejected out-of-hand. And this rejection
itself cannot answer for the lack of response, esp. in the West to the
message over the past century. You know this as well as anyone because you
did indeed put in a great deal of work on the whole issue of decadence. So
what are we missing?
This is where you and I part company. I think we are at *war* on a spiritual
and mental level. The leaders, on one level which is glaringly obvious,
turned their collective backs on Baha'u'llah because of their egos etc. And
sure, at the time anyone paying attention may have taken the cue from these
fools. But this is not the reason given for our difficulties now, ( as in
from the time of the Guaridan's writings.) ADJ and CF have very few
references to the kings, queens and presidents of the world as continuing to
be the major stumbling blocks to the message of God for this Day. Same holds
true for leaders of religion.
What we do see though, speaking of leaders is that in the Universal House of
Justice message, The Promise of World Peace, a severe tongue lashing of the
world leaders and leaders of thought who continue to promote outworn
ideologies and philosophies that enslave millions with false hope and over up
their lives to various gods of our collective devising.
I am sorry that you feel we are diametrically opposed. I would encourage you
to continue to attack all my weak points though. Better that than some false
mushy-mushy pretend pap where we keep insisting that it is simply a matter of
communication that lies at the root of our fussing. Or something else.
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 00:46:08 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Thank you for translations
Dear Listowner, Ahang, Juan:
What precious richness on Talisman today. Thank you dear friends for your
gifts that bring us closer to the Beloved.
Can Juan please share his literary analysis of "Surah of Blood?"
In gratitude at such bounty,
Sandy
=END=
From: Geocitizen@aol.com
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 05:56:33 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: maps, and maps (was Re: status quo and utopia)
In a message dated 96-01-25 12:08:28 EST, Juan writes:
>In view of Jim's, Kevin's and Stephen Friberg's postings and the
>discussion of what some here have called liberal Western values (but
>which I would call human rights), I thought it might be useful to try to
>map our collective discourse.
The above summary of our discourse in itself seems to contain one of the
sources of our confusion in trying to understand each other. I know in my
own case, (and think it likely this is also true in the arguments made by Jim
Harrison and Stephen Friberg, from what I understand of them) that when I
critique liberal democratic ideology my purpose is most emphatically *not* to
undermine the concept of human rights in any way.
Quite the opposite, in fact -- I seek to make clear what I see as unexamined
flaws in liberal-democratic thought, which make it intrinsically unreliable
as a guarantor of certain human rights, no matter how well-intentioned its
adherents may be in this regard.
Thus, it is *for* the sake of human rights that I cannot accept the theory
that liberalism just needs a few minor adjustments to be fully compatible
with a Baha'i view of human value and dignity.
>First, we should map out the ideological world in which we live.
This strikes me as good and necessary, but also as requiring more time than I
have at the moment, because my studies in political theory taught me that the
"left-to-right" metaphor commonly used to organize the various models of
government breaks down at key points -- and while I cannot claim a knowledge
so thorough as to know this for sure just yet, I suspect that some of these
points will be precisely the ones we need to understand more clearly before
we will understand why liberal democratic values fail to reliably uphold and
defend human rights.
Exploring this will be my next project here, and I think much of it will tie
into what Jim has already posted about the roots of liberal democratic
thought.
Regards,
Kevin Haines
=END=
From: Geocitizen@aol.com
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 05:56:32 -0500
To: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: political theories and models (was: various comments)
In a message dated 96-01-27 13:18:46 EST, Linda writes:
>As for the comment that I only seem to know about two models of government -
>geesh! I don't have hours to expand on every idea, you know. Some of you
guys
>seem to have an awful lot of free time to write at great length.
Some choose to attack on the basis that ideas are not defended with
sufficient length. Others choose to attack when the length is too great.
Hmmm...
On the subject of how many different models of government one sees as
possible, it is clear that my comments were too brief, or otherwise unclear.
Linda, you may be familiar with many different forms of government, but
there is an unfortunate (albeit quite understandable, given the state of
mainstream political culture) narrowness in a view that categorizes all of
them into either democracy (read: "good") or not-democracy (by the same
definition, "not-good"). This is exemplified in your comment quoted below:
>I am only saying that the models of government with which I am familiar
(more
>than two) have inherent characteristics that work against promoting and
>protecting human rights. Except for democracy.
You are correct in saying that most existing models of government have
inherent characteristics that work against promoting and protecting human
rights. Unfortunately, this is also true of the system you call "democracy."
Much as we might wish that these abuses were merely the result of an
imperfect application of liberal-democratic principles, many who have devoted
their lives to the study of applied political ideology recognize that
significant abuses arise directly and unavoidably from the principles
"democracy" holds sacred. It is because of this that I refuse to hold
"democracy" itself as sacred and above questioning, though of course I
recognize that it better upholds human value and dignity than many other
modern theories of governance.
To state this yet again, I am not saying that we should abandon entirely the
concepts of human rights or other central ideas of liberal democracy.
Rather, we must re-examine them very closely, in order to see clearly why
their promise is not fulfilled in the actual practice of governments that
claim to aspire to liberal-democratic principles. Then we must be cautious,
when recognizing the similarities between liberal democracy and the system
delineated by Baha'u'llah, not to enshrine the flaws along with the virtues.
> And, while I am being
>attacked for not having a background in political science - not surprising
since I am
>not a political scientist - I don't see anyone else really arguing on the
basis
>of political science theory either. Again, I see people setting up an image
>of a utopian state without looking at real life models to judge this utopia
by.
Sigh. First, I never "attacked" you for not having a political science
background, just as I would never attack anyone for not having a medical
background. However, if I were a medical student explaining why someone's
beliefs about, say, the causes of ulcers were erroneous, arising from popular
culture rather than from medical research, I might recognize that such an
error is not to be judged harshly when made by someone who has had no formal
training in the field. It was in this same generous spirit that I placed no
blame on you for sharing the errors most people make when they approach
political theory without formal training.
And on the recurrence of the epithet "utopian," it is important to remember
that liberalism itself (and I use the term "liberalism" not in its
contemporary sense, but in the precise political-science terminology, where
it means much the same thing as the common usage of "democracy" or the more
scholarly "Western liberal democracy.") began as nothing more than a theory
in the mind of Hobbes and then Locke. Both wrote of government as arising
from contractual agreements between persons seeking their own purposes, and
thus dissolvable by persons when those governments cease to fulfill the
purposes their citizens created them for -- in an age when governments almost
universally claimed the sanction of Divine Right as the only justification
they required to continue their existence and expect the unquestioned
obedience of their subjects.
Only now, centuries later, are there strong working models to prove that
liberalism is indeed a better system than absolutist monarchism. These
models would never have existed if the very ideas on which they are based had
been abandoned as "utopian" at their birth.
Likewise, we are obliged to lay the foundations for another, even better
system, based on the precepts revealed by Baha'u'llah, even if we cannot yet
institute sovereign governments based on the principles we are striving to
develop.
Regards,
Kevin
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 02:26:39 -0800
To: "Stephen R. Friberg" , tan1@cornell.edu,
talisman@indiana.edu
From: nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
Subject: Re: status quo and utopia
Dear Stenhen, Tim, et al.,
Excuse me, but is this a private "fight" ;-} or can any Irishman get in (no
combat boots of course)?
>Dear Tim:
>
>Very glad to see your posting on Juan's map.
>snip>
>Juan said:
>
>>> political "right" refers to systems that value unquestioned
>>> authority, hierarchy, unequal distribution of power and wealth. The
>>> political "left" values egalitarianism, the dispersal and
>>> distribution of wealth and power . . .
>
>You said:
>
>> I say that map is severely biased. I suggest the "right" is not so
>> completely bad, and the "left is certainly not so innocent and
>> good as this.
>
>With the exception of the word *unquestioned*, which I discuss below,
>the statements are quite objective and value-free, I think. So, it
>seems to me that saying that one side is portrayed as being *bad* and
>the other as *good* is your subjective interpretation, not the
>writer's.
Oh, but Juan's biases are showing, IMHO, as do mine every time I write of
speak. Using the model Juan puts forth (though I view the spectrum
completely differently) the political "left" values not egalitarianism but
rather equalitarianism --- except for those animals who are "more equal"
like the pigs. They control the power and wealth for the "public good" and
because they "know what is best for us". Why else have we
spent over 3 trillion (it boggles my mind --- a million is a big number and
a billion is
10 times larger and a trillion is 10 times larger still ! ) dollars
($3,000,000,000,000)
since the beloved "War on Poverty" started in 1965 and what do we have ---
just a
worse mess than ever. Everything this system does divides families,
cripples and
crushes the human spirit, promotes dependency, and results in the growth, and in
some cases the recruitment, of an ever increasing number of "poor and needy"
souls
to be helped and saved by politicians and bureaucrats who would be out of
their jobs
if these pawns were actually helped to achieve self sufficiency. Other than
that I
have no strong feelings on the subject ;-}
Let's, for the sake of argument, give those who devised these programs and those
who administer them the highest of altruistic motives --- they had better
smell the
dung heap and wake up to the fact of what the unintended consequences of
their actions are and that the system is broken and that it needs to be
replaced with something that engenders individual responsibility for actions
taken.
We are not *victims* of anything but our own stupidity.
Pogo Pool said it best: "I have seen the enemy and he is us."
No, I do not see the right as the real answer to the problem --- they are a
stop gap at
best --- only the Baha'i Faith is the true answer.
>If we are going to talk about this subject, we need to hold off
>pulling on our combat boots for a while, wouldn't you agree?
>snip>
>Yours sincerely,
>Stephen R. Friberg
PS. Lest you think of me as one who has the "value (of) unquestioned authority,
hierarchy, unequal distribution of power and wealth" let me say that I have
always
been on the bottom rungs of the economic ladder. And I think it is terrible
to keep
raising the minimum wage. It only hurts us on the bottom and really helps
those in
the middle economic class --- especially trade unionists --- but that is why
the "left"
keeps raising it --- to get the unions votes, right?
Doug Myers
nightbrd@humboldt1.com
"Nothing survives but the way we live our lives." JB
=END=
From: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 96 05:40:23 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Top ten books
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Don, we should talk. _The World's Religions_ is a wonderful introductio
the major religious traditions written by one of the most well-travelle
and respected scholars inthe field. _Theology in a New Key_ is an excel
summary of liberation theology written by a leading American theologian
_Chinese Thought_ is a good introduction to the major currents within
Chinese intellectual history. Please share some thoughts about the
list provided.
> My 10 favorite and most influential books:
>
> 1. Dynamics of Faith, Paul Tillich
> 2. Kitab-i-Iqan, Baha'u'llah
> 3. Apology and The Republic, Plato
> 4. Tao te Ching, Lao Tsu
> 5. The World's Religions, Huston Smith
> 6. Towards a World Theology, Wilfred Cantwell Smith
> 7. Theology in a New Key, Robert M. Brown
> 8. An Interpretation of Religion, John Hick
> 9. The Masks of God, Joseph Campbell
> 10. Chinese Thought, Herrlee Creel
> 11. Creative Evolution, Henri Bergson
DO>Very interesting list. I've read all but 5, 7 and 10; the most of an
DO>list so far exept the one's dominated by Baha'i books.
Warmest greetings, Dann May, Philosophy, OK City Univ.
---
* WR 1.32 # 669 * The truth is just an excuse for lack of imagination. Gara
=END=
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 1996 01:27:55 +1300 (NZDT)
To: iskandar@ns.moran.com, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: RE: sex and values
Ffolks,
Jackson Armstrong-Ingram seems to think that it is good and fine to bring
to light the homosexuality of certain Baha'is, but really the concealment
of their homosexuality must surely be the superior path. Is not the
standard of the sin-covering eye upheld in the Writings? To draw attention
to the homosexuality of particular Baha'is would be to highlight their
moral shortcomings. It is preposterous to assume it would be an act of
kindness, or genuine spirituality. Mr Armstrong-Ingram's position is not
consisent with fundamental tenets of the Faith.
Robert.
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 13:57:05 +0000 (GMT)
To: Juan R Cole
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Baha'u'llah's "Surah of Blood"
may i have a copy to see what you mean by `a literary analysis`?
robert
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: status quo and utopia
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 08:14:59 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Doug Myers wrote to talisman@indiana.edu:
N >We are not *victims* of anything but our own stupidity.
Doug,
I can appreciate and understand your perspective. Certainly, the
present-day world order is grappling with solving its problems and,
often as a result of political wrangling and a lack of the overall
viewpoint given to us by Baha'u'llah, successes have been limited. I
still like the old story about the Master's dream in which He was
building a new dam while others were trying to save each and every
person.
I would like to add, however, that, IMHO, we need to also remember
that we are dealing with a highly inequitable social stratification
system - in which people benefit on the basis of their ascribed traits,
such as race, gender, and the socioeconomic status of one's family of
orientation. Differences in power, prestige, and privilege are evident
from a review of the literature (or from looking at where whites and
minorities live in one's own metropolitan area) and can be regarded as
resulting from unequally distributed life chances or, as Herrnstein and
Murray saw it, from innate differences in ability. Perhaps there are
other ways of explaining it, but I can't think of any.
To the Light,
Mark (Foster)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion * Full-Time College Faculty *
*Past (1995) Pres., Kansas Sociological Society * Owner, Baha'i Studies List *
*Director, Reality Sciences Institute * Co-Moderator, Another Baha'i List *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Staff, 3 CompuServe Religion Fora, incl. Baha'i Section Leader (72642,3105) *
*Chief Baha'i Chat Host, America Online (TFPMark) * mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us *
*Sysop, Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1) * mfoster@tyrell.net *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The Prophets of God have been the Servants of Reality; Their
Teachings constitute the science of reality." - `Abdu'l-Baha
"The sciences of today are bridges to reality; if then they lead not
to reality, naught remains but fruitless illusion." - `Abdu'l-Baha
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 96 23:18:38 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg"
To: nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
Cc: tan1@CORNELL.EDU, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: status quo and utopia
Dear Doug:
> Excuse me, but is this a private "fight" ;-} or can any Irishman get in (no
> combat boots of course)?
Everybody is checked at the door for combat boots and switchblades,
but after that, your in!
> Everything this system does divides families, cripples and crushes
> the human spirit, promotes dependency . . .
Basically, you are saying that the war on poverty seems to have
failed, or rather that it has even backfired.
> they had better wake up to the fact of what the unintended consequences of
> their actions are and that the system is broken and that it needs to be
> replaced with something that engenders individual responsibility for actions
> taken.
Are you saying that it has backfired because it has failed to engender
individual responsibility?
I am fascinated by what you are saying. Could you say some more? I
know people from very difficult situations who were kept afloat for
a while by the Great Society programs, and I know that there are many
who say that the United States doesn't sacrifice enough of itself to
help those who are struggling. But, you are saying something quite
different.
I believe, as you do, that the Baha'i Faith would help solve the
problem, but I can't now foresee the details. I have thought that
if everybody were part of the same church, rich and poor, black
and white, that we no longer could isolate ourselves from each other's
needs and wants like we do now. And, once we understood, we would
start to form friendships and help each other. In other words, we
would start to reform our sundered communities. Do you think that
I am thinking in the right direction?
Steve
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:40:57 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Deathless youth
Baha'u'llah
The Tablet of
The Deathless Youth
Translated by
John Walbridge
Not to be copied.
The Tablet of the Deathless Youth
This is mention of that which was made manifest in the Year
Sixty, in the Days of God, the Powerful, the Help in Peril, the
Almighty, the Knower.
When the gates of Paradise swung wide and the Holy Youth came
forth, lo! in His hand was a serpent plain!
Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a gushing spring.
Upon His face a veil woven by the fingers of power and might.
Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty Name.
Upon His head a crown of beauty, light for the people of every
heaven, every earth.
Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty Cause.
Tresses of spirit hung upon His shoulders, black like musk upon
bright and luminous pearls.
Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a wondrous Cause.
Upon the finger of His right hand, a ring with a pearl of
immaculate holiness.
Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty spirit.
Graven thereon in a hidden and pre-eternal script, "By God, a
noble angel is this!" Thereupon, the hearts of the people of
eternity cried aloud.
Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with an ancient light.
Upon his right cheek a mole whereby the faiths of the mystics
were shaken. Thereupon the people of the veil of divinity cried
aloud!
Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty secret.
This pertaineth to that Point from which branched forth all the
knowledge of the past and of the present. Thereupon the people
of the angelic realm sang aloud.
Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty
knowledge.
This indeed is a knight of the spirit, circling about the Spring
of Salsabil. Thereupon a clamor arose from that people nigh the
veil of the Kingdom of Might.
Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with vision mystic and
mighty.
He came down from the pavillions of beauty and stood like the Sun
at the zenith of heaven, peerless and unique in His beauty.
Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come bearing great joy.
Thus He stood in the midst of heaven, shining like the noonday
Sun at the axis of beauty, His Name mighty! Thereupon a herald
proclaimed:
"Rejoice! This is the Beauty of the Unseen, come with a mighty
spirit."
A clamor then arose from the hearts of the maids of heaven in
their chambers, "Bless@ed be God, the best of Creators!"
Thereupon the dove sang out,
Rejoice! for the eyes of the privy angels have seen none like
unto this Deathless Youth."
The gates of Paradise were flung wide yet again, opened with the
key of a mighty Name.
Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty Name.
The Maid of Beauty came forth, dawning like the sun, plain upon
the horizon of the morn.
Rejoice! This is the Maid of Glory, come with a mighty beauty.
A brocade she wore, dazzling the minds of the privy angels.
Rejoice! this is the Deathless Maid, come with a mighty grace.
She descended from the chambers of eternity, then She sang such a
song as to enchant the hearts of the sincere.
Rejoice! This is the Deathless Beauty, come with a mighty
secret.
She walked in the midst of space, and lo! she let slip a lock of
Her hair from beaneath Her luminous veil.
Rejoice! This is the Deathless Maid, come with a wondrous spirit.
And by this single lock the people of all the worlds were
perfumed. It made the faces of the holy ones to pale, and the
hearts of the lovers to bleed.
Rejoice! This is the Deathless Maid, come with a mighty perfume.
By God! Whoso shutteth his eyes to Her beauty hath schemed
greivously and is in evident falsehood.
Rejoice! This is the Deathless Maid, come with a mighty light.
She turned, and with Her turned the inhabitants of both worlds.
Rejoice! this is the Deathless Maid, come with a mighty
revolution.
She advanced until She stood in Her wondrous brocade before that
Youth.
Rejoice! This is the Deathless Beauty, come wondrous fair.
Then from beneath that veil She brought forth a hennaed hand.
Like a ray of sun it was, upon a bright mirror!
Rejoice! This is the Deathless Beauty, come in a fashion mighty.
With fingertips like peerless gems She took the hem of the
Youth's veil.
Rejoice! This is the Deathless Beauty, come with a mighty glance.
She lifted the veil from off His face--lo! the pillars of the
mighty Throne were shaken.
Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty Cause.
Then the spirit died in the temple of each and every creature.
Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty Cause.
The robes of the folk of Paradise were rent at this ancient and
shining vision.
Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty light.
Thereupon the Voice of Eternity sounded from behind the veils of
cloud, calling in a voice enchanting and fair.
Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty
enchantment.
The Tongue of the Unseen proclaimed from the hidden abode of
destiny, "By God! This Youth--the eyes of the ancients did not
attain to beholding Him!"
Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty Cause.
The maids of holiness cried aloud from their chambers of
impenetrable might.
Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with manifest
lordship.
By God! The inhabitants of the all-highest concourse long for
the beauty of this Youth!
Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty Cause.
Then that Youth raised His head to the concourse of Cherubim.
Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty spirit.
He spoke a single word, and lo! all who were in the heavens arose
with a new spirit.
\j
\Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty trump.
Then with a glance of unparalleled might He looked upon the
people of the world.
Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty glance.
And all who were in creation were raised up by this won-drous
glance.
Rejoice! This is the Deathless Youth, come with a mighty Cause.
Then with His glance He indicated but a few and returned to His
place in the deathless Paradise.
This indeed pertaineth to a mighty Cause!
Thus spoke the herald of eternity from the cloud-wrapped throne:
O ye who wait in the valley of patience and fidelity! O lovers
of the air of nearness and eternity!
The spiritual Youth, He Who was hid in the trea-suries of the
Lord's infallibility, hath risen above the horizon of eternity,
clad in the robe of divinity and God-like beauty, like unto the
sun of reality and the pre-eternal spirit. With the cloak of
true being He hath delivered all who are in the heavens and the
earth from the worlds of utter nothingess and given them life.
From the depths of utter obscurity He hath brought forth into the
open court that hidden word upon which depend the spirits of all
the prophets and saints.
When He took that secret word from the realm of pure being and
absolute unity and manifested it in the worlds of creation, by
that act a breeze of mercy arose, wiping the stench of sin from
all things and placing a new robe of forgiveness upon the
numberless temples of all things and man. Such was the wondrous
solicitude with which He surrounded all things that the hidden
realities laid up in the storehouses of possibility were made
manifest in outward things through the breath of the letters B
and E. The seen and the unseen were gathered together within a
single cloak, and the mysterious and the manifest united in a
single robe. Nothingness itself attained to the kingdom of
pre-existence. The essence of mortality attained the realm of
eternity.
Therefore, O lovers of His gracious beauty, O ye struck mad by
the air night unto His awful throne! This is the season to draw
near and find reunion, not a time for talk and argument. If ye
be true, the true morn is plain and shinging before you. Free
yourselves of self and other--nay, of all that is, of being and
non-being, of light and darkness, of abasement and might. Lay
aside all vain and idle thoughts; and pure and holy, wander with
luminous heart through this spiritual court beneath the shade of
the manifestations of eternal holiness.
O Friends, the eternal wine is flowing! O lovers, the beauty of
the Beloved is unveiled! O companions, the fire of the Sinai of love
burns bright! Shrug off the burden of love of the world and
attachment thereto. Like the bright birds about the Throne, soar
in the atmosphere of divine Ridvan, singing of that home that
shall not perish.
Surely the soul ought not to be at all deprived,
Nor any fragment of the heart be without the Beloved.
Consider how at every moment the moths of that Yemen of praise
burn away their souls about the lamp of the Friend and will not
be separated from their Beloved. Would any bird do likewise?
God will guide whomsoever He willeth to a path lofty and great.
Thus We rain down upon the people of the cloud-wrapped throne
that which will turn them towards the right hand of eternity and
enter them into that station raised high in the heaven of
holiness.
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 96 20:57:09 PST
Subject: RE: Yeah, but can you dance to it?
To: Talisman@indiana.edu, David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
On 28 Jan 96 19:08:59 EST David Langness wrote:
>Dear Talismanians,
>
>Man, we got some *serious* white folks hereabouts! (I'm
pigmentally-
>challenged myself, being of Norwegian stock, so no other melanin-
>deficients need express extreme umbrage)
>
Dear David,
Some true down home music you've named.
BTW do you have Ladysmith Black Mambazo's Songs of the Turtle, the
album of Zulu Children's songs? It has the best Wimowee I've ever
heard.
I agree with you about John Lee Hooker and Lightnin' Hopkins. In a
fit of buying to retreive stuff from my old LP collection (long gone,
I'm afraid) I just reaquired some Reverand Gary Davis. Raw, but
brilliant.
For Doo Wop , I just went back and borrowed a CD of the Chiffons and
then of the Sharells. Both did Dancing in the street but, in my
maturity I now can hear that the Chiffons got it all over the
Sharells. The Chiffons best number for me was Sweet Talking Guy, an
arrangment that could rival the best work of the mommas and poppas,
all done with perfect intonation, on-the-mark harmonies, and the most
sassy-assed syncopations you'd ever want to hear.
By the way, it wasn't so much the disturbing re-occurance of Enya
that caught my eye as it was Richard Logan's list.
BTW, does anyone have an Eric Darling records or CDs?
Does anyone have a copy of Gibson and Camp at the Gate of Horn?
And Richard? Are you there?
Good lord, man. Everything you named was played by people at Love-Ins
and hootnannies. Do you still wear beads, square sun glasses, bell
bottoms and a pony tail? I thought people like that only lived here
in Brattleboro.
Peace and Love, Man.
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/28/96
Time: 20:57:09
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 96 21:13:36 PST
Subject: RE: "the Point"
To: talisman@indiana.edu, Ahang Rabbani
On Sun, 28 Jan 96 18:56:01 -0500 Ahang Rabbani wrote:
>[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
>
>
>Dear Juan,
>
>A quick question on translation of Nuqtih Ukhra (Quddus) as the
>Ultimate Point (which Shoghi Effendi translate as the Last
>Point).
>
Although you were asking about a translation issue, your question
reminded me of a question of my own and I thought I'd float it out.
I remember Joseph Campbell speaking one time about the "point through
which Being poured into Reality." And in talking about it he
indicated some "location" in his inner chest. I had the sense he was
referring an experientially known location in his own being. And, as
would be appropriate to think in his case, I inferred that he meant
that same location could also be found in any other person's being,
including my own.
And so I began to think of whether I could be conscious of that
portal within me through which the Life of Light entered my soul. And
I thought of that point as my point of contact with The One Who
Cannot be Readily Named.
Now I think of that point, that portal, whenever I hear the words,
referring the Bab, The Primal Point. It is as though there is also in
my a "primal point."
"The Primal Point" is such a mystical reverberating reference. Is
there any history of what this astounding phrase might also refer to.
Is this orginal with Bahai writings?
Thank you so much for hearing this question.
Respectfully yours,
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/28/96
Time: 21:13:36
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 10:13:33 -0500 (EST)
From: Richard Vernon Hollinger
To: Robert Johnston
Cc: iskandar@ns.moran.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: sex and values
On Tue, 30 Jan 1996, Robert Johnston wrote:
> Is not the
> standard of the sin-covering eye upheld in the Writings? To draw attention
> to the homosexuality of particular Baha'is would be to highlight their
> moral shortcomings.
This is an important point but I wonder if this teaching intended to be
applied to the writing of biography or history of people who are no longer
living. If one looks at the writings of `Abdu'l-Baha or Shoghi Effendi,
one sees that they very cautious about what they said about living
individuals, with the exception of Covenant-breakers--and even with them
they did not publicly announce all of their misdeeds, but they were far
more frank about their assessment of the lives of persons who had been
dead for some time. God Passes By, for example, contains devestating
assessments of the characters of some individuals.
This is not to suggest that sexual activities or personal misdeeds
necessarily need to be brought into every biographical or historical
narrative. I have myself left out such things in some of my own
writings. But sometimes these are too integral to the events that are
being discussed to be ignored. And in the case of biography, it is hard
for me to understand how one could describe the life of an individual who
considered himself to be gay, and who felt this influenced his work,
without discussing this aspect of his life.
Richard
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 08:02:51 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: RE: Yeah, but can you dance to it?
To: talisman@indiana.edu
On 28 Jan 96 19:08:59 EST David Langness wrote:
>Dear Talismanians,
>
>Man, we got some *serious* white folks hereabouts! (I'm
pigmentally-
>challenged myself, being of Norwegian stock, so no other melanin-
>deficients need express extreme umbrage)
>
Dear David,
Some true down home music you've named.
BTW do you have Ladysmith Black Mambazo's Songs of the Turtle, the
album of Zulu Children's songs? It has the best Wimowee I've ever
heard.
I agree with you about John Lee Hooker and Lightnin' Hopkins. In a
fit of buying to retreive stuff from my old LP collection (long gone,
I'm afraid) I just reaquired some Reverand Gary Davis. Raw, but
brilliant.
For Doo Wop , I just went back and borrowed a CD of the Chiffons and
then of the Sharells. Both did Dancing in the street but, in my
maturity I now can hear that the Chiffons got it all over the
Sharells. The Chiffons best number for me was Sweet Talking Guy, an
arrangment that could rival the best work of the mommas and poppas,
all done with perfect intonation, on-the-mark harmonies, and the most
sassy-assed syncopations you'd ever want to hear.
By the way, it wasn't so much the disturbing re-occurance of Enya
that caught my eye as it was Richard Logan's list.
BTW, does anyone have an Eric Darling records or CDs?
Does anyone have a copy of Gibson and Camp at the Gate of Horn?
And Richard? Are you there?
Good lord, man. Everything you named was played by people at Love-Ins
and hootnannies. Do you still wear beads, square sun glasses, bell
bottoms and a pony tail? I thought people like that only lived here
in Brattleboro.
Peace and Love, Man.
Philip
My dear Philip
I would point out they all actually live in Santa Cruz California and
also wear tie-dye teeshirts and naturally sandals. David's daughter
Katie goes to UCSC was at Bosch for the Sunday Fireside with some
sixties types.Really Philip, Brattleboro they must be Santa Cruz types
who got lost.
Kindest regards
Derek Cockshut
PS I am sure David will confirm that the Mysticism conference is
planning sixties revisited field trip by going and hanging out in the
Pacific Garden Mall and listening to the drums.!?!?
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/28/96
Time: 20:57:09
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 96 10:20:32 PST
Subject: authority rules
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear all,
I've been thinking about this kafuffle concerning human rights.
I'm growing rules of thumb, here. What do you think?
People who already have administrative power generally believe that
the world would go better if others would learn to respect authority.
People whose power is rooted in talent don't share this sentiment.
People little little personal power rarely argue for greater
submission. They tend to argue for fairness.
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 11:50:23 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: lua@sover.net (LuAnne Hightower)
Subject: Ashchi
Yipee! Ahang, I am grateful for these information feasts that you throw.
How could we refuse such a generous offer?
Loving Regards,
LuAnne
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:52:11 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: Noorbakhsh.Monzavi@hibo.no, frlw@midway.uchicago.edu,
Masumian@mail.utexas.edu
Subject: Reuters 1/28/96 (fwd)
> 'IRAN' STORIES
>Transmission date: 96/01/28
> 1. 12:22 IRANIAN COURT SENTENCES FORMER MP TO DEATH
>
>=START= XMT: 12:22 Sun Jan 28 EXP: 2 :00 Wed Jan 31
>
>
> Iranian court sentences former MP to death
> TEHRAN, Jan 28 (Reuter) - An Iranian appeals court has sentenced a former
>member of parliament to death for killing a man in an argument over partridge
>hunting, a newspaper said on Sunday.
> The daily Kayhan International said the court found Jalaleddin Farsi, a
>one-time presidential candidate, guilty of murder for shooting Mohammad Reza
>Rezakhani in 1993.
> Rezakhani, a retired health ministry official, had objected to Farsi's
>hunting of partridges. Farsi has said the shooting was an accident.
> In his first trial Farsi was found guilty of manslaughter and ordered to
>pay diyeh, or blood-money, to Rezakhani's family under Iran's Islamic penal
>code. The family appealed the ruling and the Supreme Court ordered a retrial.
> The case, which marked the first trial of a member of Iran's Islamic elite
>for a serious non-political crime, has attracted great public interest as a
>test of the justice system's fairness.
> According to Iran's Islamic laws, the court's ruling means Farsi faces
>execution unless Rezakhani's family agrees to spare his life in return for
>blood-money.
>
>=END=
>
>
>
>
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Revised Bill of Rights (fwd)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 96 12:07:43 EST
Dear Talismanians--
Internet contagion can be a wonderful thing! Although the 19
by-law revisions required by Theosophical international
headquarters in India passed by a wide margin in recent US
voting, the discussion on theos-l generated by the issue became
a real avalanche of horror stories. People's rights have been
horribly abused at local, national and international levels.
Well, not horribly by Baha'i standards, maybe :) But stories
poured in from Denmark, England, Canada, and several places in
the US that indicated a systematic effort to subvert democratic
institutions, led by a small secret group under the virtual
dictatorship of the international President. (Who has made it
impossible for anyone to run against her, by various by-laws
manipulations). After much handwringing and wailing and no
suggested solutions, I remembered Juan's idea from Talisman,
and thought: we need a Theosophical Bill of Rights. With some
input from others, I have produced the following, which would
prevent all the abuses catalogued in our recent complaining
sessions:
>
> 1. The freedom of each member, study center, lodge and national
> section to pursue the Society's three objects according to the
> broad, inclusive original program shall on no account be
> abridged.
> 2. Each member shall be entitled to full information access and
> cooperation in research, to the extent of staff time and
> ability, without regard to the topic of Theosophical research.
> 3. Each member shall have the right to use TS-owned facilities
> without being obliged to adhere to lifestyle restrictions of
> any other organization.
> 4. No disciplinary action shall be taken against any member,
> study center, lodge or national section, without full
> disclosure of all charges against them and the opportunity to
> answer said charges in the presence of their accuser(s).
> 5. Each challenger for elective office shall be entitled to the
> same information access and election resources available to
> incumbents.
> 6. No elected official at any level shall be entitled to ban or
> permanently remove materials from any Theosophical library on
> doctrinal grounds.
> 7. There shall be no interference by any other organization in
> the governance of the Society or any unit thereof.
> 8. Members have the right to uncensored news of local,
> national and international events in the Theosophical movement,
> which shall be published in official society publications.
> Equal access shall be allowed to opposing sides in
> controversial matters.
> 9. Any member, lodge, study center or national section shall be
> entitled to file a grievance in the case of perceived violation
> of these rights. Grievances shall be adjudicated at the
> relevant level (local, national, international) by a
> three-member panel to be chosen as follows: one member by
> complainant, one member by defendant, one member by the
> forementioned two. Panel judgments shall be publicly reported to the
> membership at whatever level is involved, unless all parties
> choose to let them remain private.
>
How much applies to your situation?
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 11:48:41 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: lua@sover.net (LuAnne Hightower)
Subject: Re: Books: A big Favor
Archie and Mehitabel - Don Marquis
Borritguita and the Coyote - children's book, author's name escapes me - if
anyone is truly interested, I'll look it up at home and send it privately
A Winter's Tale - Mark Halpern
The Dawnbreakers - Nabil
Imaginal Worlds - William Chittick
Happiness Without Death: Desert Hymns- Dr. Asad Ali (this is a one of a
series of 24 books of hymns composed by Dr. Ali on retreat, usually during
Ramadan)
The Drop That Became the Sea - Yunus Emre
Creative Imagination in the Sufism of Ibn Arabi - Henry Corbin (also
Spiritual Body, Celestial Earth)
Living Presence - Kabir Helminski
Response - Ruhiyyih Nakhjavani
I did not include works of the Central Figures, because these would take up
more than 10, but they consistute my innermost top 10). Also add any of
Threshold's versions of Rumi.
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Sun, 28 Jan 96 17:31:55 PST
Subject: Re: Relationship between violent history and viole
To: cfarhoum@osf1.gmu.edu, Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
On 28 Jan 1996 12:42:09 GMT Don R. Calkins wrote:
>> history of violence
>> repeating itself, the abused become the abuser
>
>I don't believe this is well documented. In fact it is my
understanding that
>several extensive studies in the last few years show that this idea
has, in
>fact, no basis.
>
>Perhaps Mark or someone cant cite sources; but as I understand it,
while
>violent people tend to have been the victims of violence, victims of
violence
>do not tend to be violent.
I don't have numbers for you.
Alice Miller is a writer who has influenced this level of thinking.
It was her claim that people who abuse were themselves abused.
But from this it does not necessarily follow that if you were abused
then you will abuse.
Miller said that people who were abused, unless they have identified
it as abuse and acknowledge the emotions connected with those
experiences will not consider it abuse.
They will say, well I was hit and punished but it was good for me. It
taught me discipline. And I will do the same to my children. Etc.
Not everyone who was abused identifies it as such. Consciously.
Unconsciously, of course, injustice is always recognized. Miller, in
her book, "Thou Shalt Not Become Aware," argues that some people are
not allowed to become conscious of their knowledge of having been
abused. Such people then consider the abuse they've suffered as
simply the way things are.
There is also some support in other areas of research that patterns
of behavior are passed from generation to generation. One of the
spooking things about doing a family tree is seeing patterns repeat.
It is true that some do not carry on the "legacy" as it is call. But
many do. A very popular book on this theme was "It Could Never Happen
to Me," by Claudia Black. She wrote of how children whose parents
were alcoholic, and hated it, often enough find to their horror, that
they, as adult, are also alcoholic.
And finally, how many people have discovered, always with some kind
of powerful emotion, that they are more like their parents than they
every dreamed.
Best wishes
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/28/96
Time: 17:31:56
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: 29 Jan 96 12:10:18 EST
From: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
To:
Subject: Survey Says!
Dear Talismanians,
Survey response:
1. Talisman's existence made the upcoming mysticism
conference possible, and I'm convinced that the
spreading of the mystical fragrances of the Faith
has already started to take hold in much of the
teaching work as a result. These sorts of activities
can and will have far-reaching and profound effects.
2. In our community (Torrance, California) we have now
started (just recently) a Sunday morning dawn prayer/
worship service, inspired directly by Talisman's
discussions on same.
3. Talisman has enhanced my own sense of Baha'i identity,
especially as it relates to translations of new Baha'i
material and the discussion of Baha'u'llah's mystical
teachings.
4. No question that Talisman has added immeasurably to my
personal spiritual growth (although I started out at
such a retrograde level that it'll probably take many,
many years of Talisman's beneficial influence to move
my little soul off square one...)
Survey says! Talisman works.
Love,
David
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 08:43:53 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu, Mark_Insteness@dot.state.ak.us,
Doug_Moore@admin.state.ak.us
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: Dear Burl Column
Can we start a 'Dear Burl' question and answer thread, similar to 'Dear
Abbey' columns, so all of those who have any questions about words, ethics,
human sexuality, animal sexuality, and life's difficulties can ask Burl for
illumination?
Here goes the first question.
____________________________________________________________________________
_________
Dear Burl,
Why is it that I can not find some of the words used in Talisman even in my
'BIG' dictionary? I feel so stupid for not getting half the things said
around here. Do you think I should go back to school and get an education or
should I drop out of Talisman and get a life?
Miserably yours,
Anonymous
>>> That is a reified solution if I
>>>ever heard one .
>>
>>
> He meant "refried" -- this is a remarkable and stimulating comment: "a
>refried solution if I ever heard one" crosses the cordoned borders of
>sensory allocation and thus compels us to reexamine our twice cooked
>half-baked over-chewed and partially digested concepts.
>As the wise man said: "waste is terrible refried, mind you."
>
>Burl
>
>*******************************************************
> MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
>Unlimited!
>********************************************************
>
>
>
Arsalan J. Sadighi
"Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
that is clearly none of your business!" Battista
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 09:50:11 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: Noorbakhsh.Monzavi@hibo.no, Masumian@mail.utexas.edu,
frlw@midway.uchicago.edu
Subject: Reuters 1/27/96 (fwd)
> 'IRAN' STORIES
>Transmission date: 96/01/27
> 1. 13:20 IRANIAN EDITOR CONDEMNED TO LASHES AND JAIL
> 2. 01:02 GINGRICH DECLINES COMMENT ON ``SECRET'' PLAN FOR IRAN
>Transmission date: 96/01/26
> 3. 14:27 REUTERS MIDDLE EAST HIGHLIGHTS
>
>=START= XMT: 13:20 Sat Jan 27 EXP: 3 :00 Tue Jan 30
>
>
> Iranian editor condemned to lashes and jail
> TEHRAN, Jan 27 (Reuter) - A Tehran court has sentenced a leading author and
>magazine editor to 35 lashes and six months imprisonment for ``publishing
>lies'' and insulting Iranian supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, newspapers
>said on Saturday.
> The daily Iran said the court also banned Abbas Maroufi from working as a
>journalist and closed his literary monthly Gardoon.
> The ruling said Gardoon had insulted Khamenei in an article allegedly
>comparing the Iranian leader to the late Shah of Iran Muhammed Reza Pahlavi,
>who was forced into exile by the 1979 Islamic revolution, the paper said.
> Maroufi was also convicted of ``publishing lies'' in a social psychology
>survey in Gardoon which concluded that depression was the dominant mood among
>Iranians, the daily Kayhan said.
> ``I was not tried. It was the freedom of expression that was put on
>trial,'' Maroufi told Reuters, adding that he would appeal the ruling.
> ``It will be the turn of other journalists and authors after me,'' he
>added. ``I have not violated press regulations, and not once have authorities
>warned Gardoon earlier.''
> In December, an Iranian court jailed a magazine publisher for three months
>after convicting him of defaming a state-run firm.
> Maroufi, 38, has published 10 novels, plays and collections of short
>stories and helped set up a yearly literary award.
> He was also convicted for publishing sensual poems by leading Iranian poet
>Simin Behbahani that the court viewed as immoral.
> ``I have never been involved in politics, but the court was politicising
>literature,'' Maroufi said.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 01:02 Sat Jan 27 EXP: 1 :00 Tue Jan 30
>
>
> Gingrich declines comment on ``secret'' plan for Iran
> By David Morgan
> ATLANTA, Jan 26 (Reuter) - House Speaker Newt Gingrich declined to comment
>Friday on a New York Times article linking him to an alleged $18 million covert
>U.S. plan aimed at altering the nature of the government of Iran.
> Instead, the Georgia Republican criticised the newspaper for printing the
>story and accused the Clinton administration of having no effective policy for
>containing the Islamic Republic's activities.
> ``I'm not going to comment about anything any intelligence committee's
>doing, except to note that it's very hard for a free society to be effective
>doing anything in secret if it's on page one of the New York Times,'' Gingrich
>told reporters after speaking to local business leaders.
> The newspaper reported in its Friday editions that the operation, which it
>said was conceived by Gingrich, became public in the United States and in Iran
>three months ago. As a result, the article claimed, the Central Intelligence
>Agency now is required to mount the operation with its cover already blown.
> Gingrich's desire for a covert operation against Iran became public in
>October, first in a Washington newsletter known as CQ's Congressional Monitor,
>then in the Wall Street Journal and finally on news wires around the world.
> ``The operation has not started, but the counteroffensive has,'' the New
>York times said.
> The 52-year-old former history professor says the Iranian government
>supports state terrorism and is seeking to develop weapons of mass destruction
>as well as plotting the elimination of Israel and threatening world oil
>supplies.
> ``I do think it would be helpful if the Clinton administration had a plan
>for containing the Iranian government's activities and changing the nature of
>the Iranian govenment, just in terms of the survival of an awful lot of
>people,'' he said Friday.
> Iran's Parliament this week announced a $20 million operation ``to counter
>the Great Satan'' and combat the American plan.
> Meanwhile, the White House, concerned about a military build-up in Iran,
>was drafting plans to raise sanctions on Tehran that would include banning U.S.
>firms from buying its oil, according to administration officials.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 14:27 Fri Jan 26 EXP: 4 :00 Mon Jan 29
>
>
> Reuters Middle East Highlights
> BONN - German prosecutors are investigating possible links between Iran's
>intelligence minister and the killing of four exiled Kurds in an inquiry that
>could lead to a warrant for his arrest, a spokesman said.
> - - - -
> ANKARA - Turkish caretaker Prime Minister Tansu Ciller said dozens of
>police would face disciplinary or legal action in connection with the death of
>a journalist who witnesses said was killed in police custody.
> - - - -
> CAIRO - The human rights group Amnesty International has launched an appeal
>on behalf of 24 Libyan students it says were tortured and summarily tried and
>sentenced in Tripoli for allegedly taking part in demonstrations in 1995.
> - - - -
> WASHINGTON - The White House dismissed plans by Libyan leader Muammar
>Gaddafi to spend $1 billion to mobilise minorites for the U.S. elections,
>saying he was trying to ``worm his way'' back onto the world stage.
> - - - -
> ANKARA - MPs from Turkey's conservative Motherland Party have urged the
>rejection of a coalition offer from caretaker Prime Minister Tansu Ciller if
>she insists on being first leader in a rotating premiership, party officials
>said.
> - - - -
> ZAPORIZHA, Ukraine - Ukraine will provide Iran with the technology to build
>passenger aircraft after winning an international tender, the director of
>Ukraine's largest aircraft engine plant said.
> - - - -
> BEIRUT - Lebanon has completed preparations for resuming peace talks with
>Israel and will base its stand on a 1978 U.N. resolution ordering Israel to
>withdraw immediately and unconditionally from Lebanon, President Elias Hrawi
>said.
> - - - -
> NICOSIA - The accession of Malta and Cyprus to the European Union will be a
>matter of months once membership negotiations begin, Malta's Foreign Minister
>Guido De Marco said.
>
>=END=
>
>
>
>
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 19:11:51 +0100
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: Loni.BramsonLerche@ping.be (Loni Bramson-Lerche)
Subject: Re: re sex and values
Dr. Armstrong-Ingram,
I just took a break from reading Salvatore Cucchiari's "The gender
revolution and the transition from bisexual horde to patrilocal band"
in Ortner and Whitehead's "Sexual Meanings, The Cultural Construction
of Gender and Sexuality" to read my e-mail. He agrees with some
biological research that there are more than two biological sexes, but
he also criticizes the anthropological research which claims that there
are more than two genders. He argues that the "third gender" is not
really sufficiently independent to be classified as a third gender
category.
I do not particularly have an opinion on this matter (yet), but I
thought you might be interested.
Sincerely,
Loni Bramson-Lerche
>RE George Cary's comments:
>
>There are many human societies with three genders.
>
>Jackson
>
>
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:09:08 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: "Poetics Today" art., pt. 1
At popular request, I begin posting my article that examines the Surah of
Blood as one of its main focuses. I'll send it in three parts, starting
today. I apologize that the footnotes are just impossible. I had this
piece in another format, which my present computer will not fully
transfer, and there are yet more problems when I put it over into ASCII
for the internet. I just made them all unnumbered asterisks; the
references will come at the end of part 3. Anyone who wants to see a
more elegant formatting can look it up in *Poetics Today*, which should
be in any good library.
cheers Juan Cole, History, Univ. of Michigan
Juan R.I. Cole, "`I am All the Prophets': The Poetics of Pluralism in
Baha'i Texts," Poetics Today 14, no. 3 (Fall 1993):123-141.
As we have seen, throughout the history of Islam mainline
Muslim clerics tended to deny the truth of Zoroastrianism, Hinduism
and Buddhism, and they refused to accept the existing Bible as a
reliably transmitted scripture. The nineteenth century witnessed,
however, the growth of a class of intellectuals not themselves clergy,
who proved more open to outside influences. Many Iranian
intellectuals acquired an interest in the Zoroastrian past of their
country, and knowledge of this non-Abrahamic tradition had a
relativizing effect on their religious ideas. The indigenous Jewish
community represented an object of interest for other intellectuals,
some of whom learned Hebrew, while Iran's close cultural and
economic links with India led many merchants and travellers into
contact with Hinduism. As we saw in the last chapter, the activities of
Christian missionaries, and new Arabic and Persian translations of the
Bible, made the Christian scriptures available to literate Iranians. This
atmosphere of modern inquiry formed a backdrop for the development
of Baha'i ideas.* The Baha'i faith differs from mainstream Islam, not
only in recognizing further prophets after Muhammad and adhering to
a new, liberalized religious law, but also in recognizing the truth of
South Asian and other non-Abrahamic faiths and in accepting the
general validity of the existing Bible along with other holy books for
use as scripture. This theological pluralism differs from syncretism in
that the various religions are affirmed in their world-historical
specificity from the standpoint of a new and independent tradition,
with its own distinctive rituals, laws and theology. Baha'is hold that
the archetypes, spiritual experiences and ethical expressions underlying
the various religions are held in common, not the specific, varying
details of liturgy, history or doctrine.*
The idea of the equal validity of the world religions tends to
evoke one of two reactions. It is often rejected out of hand by those
who appeal to Aristotelian logic as contrary to common sense and
refuted by the incompatibility of religious doctrines, (e.g. Judaism's
strict monotheism, Christianity's incarnationism, or Hinduism's
pantheism). Such Aristotelians insist that the religions make
competing and incompatible truth-claims.* Among those who find the
idea of religious pluralism attractive, this underlying spiritual unity is
often merely asserted, without being explored in a rigorous manner.
Exceptions here are John Hick and Wilfred Cantwell Smith, who, as
believing Christians, have argued with some cogency the case for the
simultaneous truth of each of the world religions. Hick identifies three
main theological approaches to dealing with the diversity of human
religious experience: 1) exclusivists see only one mode of religious
thought (their own) as true, and others as false; 2) inclusivists maintain
that their own tradition is blessed with the whole truth, but other
religions might possess some truth; and 3) pluralists believe that the
great world faiths all embody equally valid human responses to the
ultimately Real.* Fundamentalist movements tend to adopt an
exclusivist point of view, whereas Roman Catholicism has since
Vatican II committed itself to inclusivism. Many Hindu schools of
thought likewise tend either to inclusivism or to an outright
commitment to pluralism. Baha'i texts are pluralist in that they assert,
not only the underlying unity of the world religions, but also the unity
of the High Prophets, or founders of those world religions. I would
like to propose a different ground for the study of such issues than the
traditional one of philosophy of religion. I believe that their
exploration should lead to a concern with textuality and the literariness
of religious texts. Since we have, in the Baha'i Faith, a religion whose
scriptures often state the truth of a pluralist position, the question
arises of what rhetorical techniques render this assertion of pan-
religious unity immediate and plausible to believers.
Here I wish to analyze two texts by Baha'u'llah that speak of
the unity of the High Prophets, and I will focus especially on their
poetics, that is on the literary and semiotic techniques the author
employs to make this idea plausible. By "semiotics" I mean the study
of signs, in the sense that anything that can substitute for something
else in human communication is a sign.* I propose that these methods
can make sense of the seeming paradoxes in this tradition of religious
discourse. Each text, theorists suggest, is shaped by its own deep
structures, the specific context of its enunciation, and the culture
within which it is expressed. Enunciation has to do with the way the
text is shaped by authors and their situation in life, and the genre they
employ. Cultural structures have more to do with paradigms and
systems of culturally-specific signs.* In the preceding chapters, I
have already dealt with the historical context and with Baha'u'llah's
biography. Let us then turn to cultural structures.
In these two texts by Baha'u'llah, the unity of the prophets or
`Manifestations of God' (mazahir-i ilahi) is asserted. The longer of
these two texts is distinctive not its overt philosophy of religion but its
literary qualities, and it is upon these that I wish to concentrate. I will
show that the literary character of Baha'u'llah's writing, his use of
presentation and narrative, of point of view, of techniques such as
apostrophe, and a rich Persian heritage of allegory and metaphor, help
make his pluralist religious doctrines believable to readers. Another
way to make sense of his writings on the issue of religious and
prophetic unity is to better understand the way in which his imagery is
constituted, by examining the oppositions he invokes, and the way in
which these contradictions are mediated or remain unmediated and
unstable. A principle like the unity of religions, which discounts the
differences in the doctrines of the religions, must be investigated by
employing a different sort of logic than the standard Aristotelian sort,
in which a proposition has only one valid meaning, and in which
surface contradictions between two propositions invalidate one or the
other. Theologian Daniel Patte has referred to syllogistic reasoning as
the "logic of argumentation," and has contrasted it to the sort of
thought processes that anthropologists such as Claude Livi-Strauss
have found in myths. I call this mythopoeic reasoning "spiritual logic,"
and find its main attributes to consist in a concern with symbolic
structures and dialectical thinking, which, as the postmodernists have
pointed out, may be rather more semantically unstable than Livi-
Strauss at first envisioned. With Edmund Leach and many other
anthropologists, I accept that spiritual logic occurs in the literate
world-religions as well as in mythology.* As I shall argue below, by
understanding the workings of spiritual logic, and of rhetorical and
poetical devices, we can better understand Baha'u'llah's ideas on the
unity of the High Prophets and other, lesser holy figures, whom he
collectively terms the Manifestations of God. Clearly, this discussion
is premised upon the idea that among the things that makes sacred
history more meaningful than secular history is the operation upon it of
spiritual logic. Sacred biography, such as Genesis on Abraham or
Mark on Jesus, probably has a historical basis, but the mere feature of
general historicity cannot explain the enduring existential salience of
those biographies for people of faith throughout the world. Spiritual
logic constitutes a meaningful way of thinking about sacred biography.
Cosmology, Performance and the Identity of the Divine Intermediaries
When applied to a sequence of events or narrative, the logic of
argumentation demands that difference be considered significant. A
police detective will deduce that a small thin man did not commit a
particular murder because the footprints in the mud at the scene of the
crime were those of a heavy-set man. In mythology, folk tales, and
other sorts of imaginative discourse, distinctions are still drawn. But
the meaning of any element is not absolute, depending, rather, on its
relationship to other parts of the story. The implication here is that in
different tellings of a meaningful story, one could substitute one
element for another without necessarily altering the meaning of the
tale. The Russian student of folk tales Vladimir Propp argued that the
functions of characters remain stable in a tale, no matter which
character fulfilled them. Thus, in a plot element such as "the witch
kidnaps the king's daughter," the teller of tales could easily substitute
"dragon" or another supernatural being for "witch," without
substantially altering the plot. The other characters could likewise be
changed, for instance, "wife" instead of "daughter."* The function, in
this conception, consists of the character's action viewed in relation to
its importance to the plot.
Baha'u'llah's writings on sacred history, I would argue, can
similarly be studied in terms of their formal structure. The biography
of each prophet as he tells it, in other words, contains similar plot
functions. This is not to say that he saw these prophets' biographies as
fictional, or that his writings about them constitute a sort of fiction.
Over the past two decades, literary theory has in any case increasingly
questioned the absolute distinction between fictional and nonfictional
discourse, and writers like Hayden White have argued that even
historical narrative tends to be cast in the form of literary tropes.*
Certainly, the telling of stories about prophets and holy figures
constituted a well-defined set of genres in Shi`ite Iran, with their own
conventions and literary traditions.
The unity of the religions and the unity of the High Prophets
are very much linked in Baha'u'llah's thought. He conceives of religion
as revealed, but sees the ritual and doctrinal aspects of revelation as
relative to the age in which they were ordained, subject to abrogation
at a later age. This lapsing of the divine law associated with the
religion, however, does not imply that the religion has been abrogated
or become invalid as a means of approaching the Real, though the idea
of progressive revelation suggests that more recent religions are more
relevant to the age than earlier ones. He wrote
There can be no doubt whatever that the peoples of the world, of
whatever race or religion, derive their inspiration from one heavenly
Source, and are the subjects of one God. The difference between the
ordinances under which they abide should be attributed to the varying
requirements and exigencies of the age in which they were revealed.
All of them, except a few which are the outcome of human perversity,
were ordained of God, and are a reflection of His Will and Purpose.*
Although Baha'u'llah himself spoke primarily of Zoroastrianism,
Hinduism, Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Babism and the Baha'i faith
itself, it is easy to see how his son and successor, `Abdu'l-Baha' (1844-
1921), extended this philosophical framework to encompass the
religion of Buddha, as well.
Baha'u'llah's ideas about the nature of time and cosmology also
form an important backdrop to his conception of the unity of the
Manifestations of God. Ideas about time, after all, have been wrought
up with conceptions of being since the Greeks, at least. Babis and
Baha'is believed in a doctrine of the eternal return, which differs in
essential aspects from the similar theory propounded by Friedrich
Nietzche, and rather resembles that of Plotinus.* Baha'u'llah believed
that the basic drama of a prophetic figure's advent, followed by his
preaching, then his rejection and persecution, and finally the triumph of
his religion was reenacted from millennium to millennium. In each
instance the prophetic figure constituted a manifestation of the Logos
(kalimatu'llah or Word of God). The Bab had likewise seen each of
the High Prophets as "Manifestations of the Primal Will," the Primal
Will being synonymous with the Logos or Neoplatonic Universal
Intellect.* This Babi-Baha'i idea of the eternal return differed from
that of Nietzche insofar as it primarily concerned sacred history, and
insofar as it allowed for progress. In this periodically restaged holy
drama, functions do recur in the Proppian sense.
Baha'u'llah believed that that each new revelation represented
both an advance upon, and a working-out of themes in, the religious
civilization that preceded it. This idea of progress introduces linearity
into Baha'i ideas of time. Students of religion have suggested that
South Asian traditions such as Hinduism and Buddhism hold a view of
history as consisting in recurring patterns. The Abrahamic religions of
the Near East, in contrast, have tended to see history as linear, as
characterized by a beginning, middle and end. Theologian Mark C.
Taylor, however, has questioned the absoluteness of this distinction:
It is, of course, common to distinguish interpretations of time by
juxtaposing the metaphors of circle and line. Frequently it is argued
that in the East time is viewed as a circle in which beginning and end
coincide. In the West, by contrast, time tends to be regarded as a
linear process in which the end surpasses the beginning . . . Any facile
opposition between circular and linear views of time, however,
obscures important similarities that these two perspectives share. Both
circle and line are forms of closure and figures of plenitude that serve
as totalizing metaphors. *
The Babi and Baha'i schema reinforces Taylor's point about the
falseness of this dichotomy by combining a cyclical with a linear view,
producing something like a spiral or W.B. Yeats's "gyre." This
conception of time as it operates in sacred history underpins the Baha'i
idea of progressive revelation.
Since we are here concerned with the identity of the prophets,
it is the cyclical aspect of sacred history which we must primarily
consider. Baha'u'llah in his Book of
Certitude made the argument that some verses of the Qur'an supported
the Babi idea of the eternal return, insofar as they addressed the
unbelievers of the Prophet's own day as identical to those who rejected
Moses or Jesus, lambasting his Arab contemporaries for the sins of
Jesus's persecutors six centuries earlier (Qur'an 2:89):
Strive therefore to comprehend the meaning of "return" which hath
been so explicitly revealed in the Qur'an itself, and which none hath as
yet understood. What sayest thou? If thou sayest that Muhammad
was the "return" of the Prophets of old, as is witnessed by this verse,
His Companions must likewise be the "return" of the bygone
Companions, even as the "return" of the former people is clearly
attested by the text of the above-mentioned verses.*
The Babi-Baha'i conception of eternal return differs considerably from
the idea of reincarnation. In Hinduism reincarnation involves the
return of an individual soul in another body. The Baha'i scriptures,
however, assert that the individual soul, once having left the earthly
plane, never returns but rather progresses through other planes of
existence toward God. What, then, "returns?" This tradition of
thought sees the individual person as a conjunction of essence and
attributes, and sees a constellation of attributes as representing
something like psychological archetypes that recur in later
personalities.* The Babis and Baha'is placed great emphasis on the
recurrence of these personality-archetypes. The Baha'i view of sacred
history also has elements with the formalist conception of narrative
functions. The early Baha'is in the Middle East conceived of the roles
in the basic prophetic drama rather like functions, in which various
actors could be substituted without changing the basic line of the
story. Not only did Jesus step into the role once played by Moses, and
then Muhammad into that once played by Jesus, but their companions
and disciples also represented a return of previous supporters of the
prophets, and their enemies recur, as well.
Nor is this language of script and theater and dramatis
personae anachronistic when we speak of Iranian religious ideas during
the nineteenth century. At the beginning of that century, a popular
custom grew up of staging dramatic performances that depicted the
suffering of holy figures, rather like the passion plays produced in
medieval Europe. These dramas consisted of story cycles, which
included the tale of Abraham's near-sacrifice of his eldest son and the
betrayal of Joseph by his brothers, as well as purely Islamic and Shi`ite
themes.* The emergence of this dramatic form may have made it
easier for popular audiences to imagine the "return" of holy figures
from the past, and so aided the spread of the Baha'i kerygma.
An appreciation of these Shi`ite passion plays requires a basic
knowledge of controversial events and personalities in early Islam, for
the "Karbala paradigm," as anthropologist Michael M.J. Fischer called
it, constitutes a key element in cultural system that helped shape both
the Muslim and the Baha'i texts under discussion. Fischer defines a
"paradigm" as a story that could include cosmology, history and even
everyday problems, along with a background contrast, all joined to
ritual or physical drama.* These elements are eminently present in the
founding narratives of Shi`ite Islam and their later commemoration.
As noted in the introduction, the third Shi`ite Imam, Husayn,
attempted in A.D. 680 to stage an `Alid uprising against the Umayyads
in Iraq on the plain of Karbala. Umayyad troops streamed out to put
the rising down, a task they brutally and successfully accomplished,
after a siege of Husayn's camp (which included women and children).
The would-be caliph, Husayn, was killed, along with many of his
supporters and relatives, and his head was said to have been brought
back to the Umayyad king on an upraised spear. Since Husayn was a
grandson of Muhammad, and older Muslims had seen him as a toddler
dangling on the Prophet's knees, his killing and the massacre of his
supporters shocked many in the Islamic world. Supporters of the
House of the Prophet, who eventually became known as the Shi`ites
(literally, `partisans'), saw Husayn as a martyr whose blood was
redemptive. They gradually developed mourning rituals to
commemorate Husayn's martyrdom on the Tenth of the month of
Muharram. From the fifteenth century C.E. the ritual reading of a
series of elegies on each of the first ten days of Muharram became
popular. Especially after the Shi`ite revival of the sixteenth century
(when Shi`ite-ruled states were established in Iran, and in Golconda,
Bijapur, Ahmadnagar and Kashmir in India), such ritual lamenting
became firmly institutionalized in the Islamic East, taking the form
both of prose and poetry. As noted above, in nineteenth century Iran a
popular theater developed around the themes of Husayn's rising and
martyrdom, though the dramatic cycles often included stories of
previous prophets such as Abraham and Joseph, the death of
Muhammad himself, and the martyrdom of `Ali, as well. This Shi`ite
performance tradition, I would argue, already contains implicitly the
message of the functional unity of the holy figures whose lives were
dramatized.*
All this background has been necessary to appreciate the two
texts by Baha'u'llah in which the unity is made explicit, and to which I
now return. The specific enunciatory context for one of the texts was
Baha'u'llah's declaration of himself to the Babis as the promised one of
the Bab during and immediately after the year 1280/1863-64. Among
the broader cultural structures that inform these Baha'i texts are a
cyclical conception of sacred time and the Persian performance
tradition of passion plays that commemorated the suffering, not only of
Imam Husayn, but of prophets such as Abraham, Joseph and
Muhammad.
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:28:05 -0600 (CST)
From: Robert Lee Green
To: SBirkland@aol.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: From Birkland 1/26
On Fri, 26 Jan 1996 SBirkland@aol.com wrote:
Allah'u'Abha, Dear Stephen :-)
May we return to this please, :-)
> I have received a number of queries in response to my posting on 22 January
> 1996 regarding the presence on the Talisman list of a National Director of a
> group of Covenant-breakers. These queries revolve mainly around two points:
> 1) What might one do about it; and
I am also concerned with what "we" might do about it.
>2) what is meant by my having said that
> the matter creates serious concerns for the Baha'is in the light of the
> explicit Baha'i Teachings on the Covenant.
3. Did you write the original posting as an individual or as a
representative of the Continental Councillors, as intricate as the
separation between individual and assembly is I think the matter warrants
more attention. I think there is much confusion regarding the next step.
> My purpose in sending the message was to alert the Baha'is as to the company
> they were keeping on Talisman, perhaps unbeknownst to most of them.
Thank you, I think :-) Ignorance was bliss :-), but now what would you
suggest? What should be done about it? And who should do it?
Should the director be asked to leave voluntarily? Who should ask? Who
knows who the director is?
Should covenant breakers be automatically removed, or should Baha'is just
avoid talisman?
Should all the baha'is consider the matter for themselves and make individual
decisions, some to leave and some to stay?
How do we find out who has been identified as a covenant breaker? so as
to be better able to prevent unaware association, and is there any guilt
attached to unaware associations? biiiiiig grin :--)))))
At what level is this matter related?
Covenant Breaking implies the Universal House of Justice, should we
approach them with this matter, and if so, I think, many will
agree that this matter should be at the forefront of talismanian :-)
thought.
> The fact that various statements made on Talisman challenge or undermine the
> Covenant is serious in itself,
I tend to be generous here and view such challenges as tests for
our growth and consolidation. They serve to force us to "resort" to
Baha'u'llah
Or perhaps immature understandings of the covenant, and I am sure that
any efforts you make to aid our maturation will be greatly appreciated,
if not gleefully, proclaimed :-)
>since such statements provide ammunition with which they could further
>their efforts to subvert the very unity of the Baha'i Faith that the
Covenant was established to preserve.
This is a serious statement, and is worthy of great consideration
covenant breakers or not. And it is toward increasing our understanding
of dialogue and discussion and maturation in the covenant that I ask you
to be gently specific :-)
> Given these circumstances, I could not in good conscience have remained
> silent about the information which had come to my attention.
>
> Stephen Birkland
>
------------------------------------------------
| "O SON OF SPIRIT! |
Robert Green | My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, |
rlg0001 | kindly and radiant heart, that thine may |
@jove.acs.unt.edu | be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable |
| and everlasting." - Baha'u'llah |
------------------------------------------------
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:43:46 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Fwd: RE: Yeah, but can you dance to it?
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Derek Cockshut" ,
"Talisman"
Dear Derek,
As you may have noticed I didn't mention the Greatful Dead. I already
belong to a religion. You failed to mention, in your usual witty
commentary, the superlative and also seminal quality of that music which
is ascociated with the largest influx of Baha'is, into our ranks, in this
century so far. There are those who play the role of the modern dervish
but don't be decieved the're just one of the guys.
Faaar-out Man
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 10:06:02 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: Re: Continental Counselors
There is a letter from the Universal House of Justice that states that
Counsellors indeed have a higher rank than Nationsal Spiritual Assemblies.
Arsalan
>> Isn't it true
>> that the Continental Boards of Counselors have a higher rank than the
>> National Spiritual Assemblies?
>
>Mark -
>We-e-e-ll?
>The Counselors and the National Assemblies are both members of autonomous
>arms of the administration. National Assemblies out-rank local Assemblies,
>and Counselors out-rank Aux Brd members; but within their areas of
>responsibility, Natinal Assemblies are subject to the Counselors and
>Counselors to the National Assembly. It's almost like trying to decide if
>Roma apples are better than Red Delicious; it depends on whether you are
>making pie or fruit salad.
>
>Don C
>
>
>
>He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
>
>
Arsalan J. Sadighi
"Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
that is clearly none of your business!" Battista
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 14:22:40 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: lua@sover.net (LuAnne Hightower)
Subject: BOOKS
Add the Qur'an and Charlotte's Web, please. And various versions of The
Most Beautiful Names.
LuAnne
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 13:28:23 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: authority rules
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: , "Talisman"
You certainly have a point,
>People who already have administrative power generally believe that
>the world would go better if others would learn to respect authority.
>
>People whose power is rooted in talent don't share this sentiment.
>
>People little little personal power rarely argue for greater
>submission. They tend to argue for fairness.
I run into these circumstances every day and I tell myself that I am
powerful if only I could find the "Universe wrapped up with in" me, but I
rarely can, yet it moderates my behavior to some extent.
But then again, we must argue for fairness from our ownselves which
enslave us and deprive us of power over our own nature. Which is the
more tyrannical? You Judge.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 14:22:44 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: lua@sover.net (LuAnne Hightower)
Subject: Ramadan
Dear and Beloved Talisbeings,
In honor of Ramadan, I thought I'd share a piece from Dr. Asad Ali's
'Happiness Without Death: Desert Hymns.'
Much love to all,
LuAnne
Your Poor Entreating Servant
I, the Desert,
have read the lines of Your secrets,
and listened to Your birds' singing.
So, the eye of my attention
and the ear of my longing
have guided my heart.
Where?!
To praising and glorifying You.
God, that is the most perfect secret.
I faithfully and truly
praise and glorify You
and You reveal to me
the goodness of insight.
I see, contemplate, and discern
that everything, by Your favor, can exist.
I almost fly
in the expanse of pleasure,
for You've taught me a discerning dedication to You.
Everything, willy-nilly,
appeals to You;
but I like to appeal to You
in every line, God,
by all means and aims.
I dive knowing that You are the maker of pearls.
I fly knowing that You
are the constructor of atmosphere.
I walk knowing that You
are the tamer of Earth.
God,
I love You and whoever
and whatever loves You.
I've recognized that every
creature loves You in a certain way,
so, I thought of loving every creature, too,
for each is Your creation.
Sometimes I intend to write a splendid phrase,
but an inner eraser stops
the pens of intention.
I think over and over how to express
my love for You.
I feel I'm knocking at innumerable doors,
and many new doors are opened.
Every time a door between my heart and You
is opened,
Your most radiant light appears brighter,
and increases my yearning
for the sources of Your radiant light.
Lord, how splendid
the yearning
and love journey
to You is.
Accept me in endless journeying
to the doors of Your favor
and accept the prayer
of Your poor entreating servant,
the Desert.
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 11:22:36 PST8PDT
Subject: archives, top 2 books/ Re: we are being watched
Hi,
re:
> Date sent: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 16:53:16 +1200
> To: Juan R Cole , talisman@indiana.edu
> From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
> Subject: Re: we are being watched
...snip
> However, much as I'd like to slam the jallopy into reverse and re-examine
> in detail Juan's earlier letter, I've decided against sending out a call to
> Eric for a copy. I'd rather simply say, "Juan: I am sorry if I was wrong."
> Of course Juan could re-post his earlier letter himself.
> But...BUT...already this is starting to sound like a witch-hunt, and I'd
> rather letter the matter of the earlier letter go. Huh!!!
>
Not sure if I'm completely tracking this subject all the way
since I've been neglecting reading all messages, I've got
a side consulting job that is keeping me busy (got to make some
extra money to go on vacation to Barcelona this summer!).
I would be happy to compile the supposedly offending messages
if Dr. Cole wishes to pursue the matter. I have some other
pending talisman archive requests that I'm behind on, and have
to do them first. Robert, let me know if your email system can
handle getting all of Dr. Cole's stuff in a big attachment or
whatever (in the event that he wants/permits me to compile
them).
For top ten books: add the old "Whole Earth Catalog(s)" and
"Unsettling of America..." by Wendell Berry (one of the best
*intellectual farmers* I have ever heard of). I hope to scan
Berry's "Why I won't buy a computer" article from Harper's
magazine and post it to talisman sometime soon. He wrote a
follow up article on feminism, economics and environment. He
does a good job of writing poetically from a traditional
down-to-earth (literally) american democratic/ecological
perspective (a critique of the industrialization of our
relationships with the natural Order of the Universe,
including modern alienation from own spiritual natures) that
leads to understanding cultural/character "crisis".
Also: did anyone get a delayed dump of Jan 14,15,16,17 talisman
postings over the last fews days? A bunch of them seem to have
just popped up here out of nowhere a week late. Maybe my newly
implemented mail filtering is fooling me?
Eric D. Pierce
(PierceED@csus.edu)
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 13:18:46 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Mail to Burl
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Talisman"
Dear Talisman,
I have been having problems getting messages to Burl--anyone else have
this Email problem?
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
From: Rick Schaut
To: Juan R Cole
Cc: "talisman@indiana.edu"
Subject: RE: Order and Rights
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 12:02:47 -0800
Dear Juan and Friends,
First, I'll not allow your flattery to induce me to overlook
the fact that you're picking on my mother. Though it was
a nice try.
From: Juan R Cole[SMTP:jrcole@umich.edu]
>Baha'u'llah's and `Abdu'l-Baha's writings are replete with references to
>human rights. I do not see in what way the following passage detracts
>from individual rights.
It doesn't. On the other hand, the passage points out some
concepts which aren't fully captured by the democratic notion of
rights (in particular, negative rights).
In the spirit of Newton, Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha have pointed
to a world where every right has an equal and opposite responsibility.
The failure to fulfill the responsibility imposed by the existence of
a right can cause one to forgo that right.
Ronald Dworkin, in _Taking Rights Seriously_, discusses a
dichotomy between a rights-based political theory and a duty-based
theory; the essential difference being that one establishes the
existence of a right and then infers a duty from the existence
of the right, while the other establishes a duty, and infers the
existence of certain rights based upon that duty.
I think Baha'u'llah rejects both notions. Rather, rights and duties
coexist as the implied result of the application of Divinely
revealed principle. If you read the quote that mom posted
(reproduced below), you'll find that this is exactly what
`Abdu'l-Baha is doing. He starts by stating a set of relevant
principles and then goes on to point out some of the duties
and rights implied by these principles.
Warmest Regards,
Rick Schaut
> "Since the orderly running of your association dependeth upon devotion,
> integrity, fair-mindedness and sanctity of purpose manifested by the
friends
> of God, they should show forth in their management of it's affairs such
> purity, nobility and far-signted wisdon that they will become the model
for
> other societies, and all people may be edified and enlightened by their
> example. In this way the Baha'is will become known to all as people who
are
> dependable and honest, virtuous and enlightened, pure and refined, who are
> industrious and high-pricipled, liberal minded and promoters of freedom;
> whose concern is to serve the common good, not to advance their own
> interests, and whose aim is to further the welfare and prosperity of the
> people not to foster their own well-being."
> 'Abdul-Baha:
Trustworthiness,
> page 341
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:13:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Stephen Johnson
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: Stephen Johnson
Subject: KI pp. 31-33
What "oppression" is greater than that which
hath been recounted? What "oppression" is more
grievous than that a soul seeking the truth, and
wishing to attain unto the knowledge of God,
should know not where to go for it and from whom
to seek it? For opinions have sorely differed, and
the ways unto the attainment of God have multiplied.
This "oppression" is the essential feature of
every Revelation. Unless it cometh to pass, the Sun
of Truth will not be made manifest. For the break
of the morn of divine guidance must needs follow
the darkness of the night of error. For this reason,
in all chronicles and traditions reference hath been
made unto these things, namely that iniquity shall
cover the surface of the earth and darkness shall
envelop mankind. As the traditions referred to are
well known, and as the purpose of this servant is
to be brief, He will refrain from quoting the text
of these traditions.
Were this "oppression" (which literally meaneth
pressure) to be interpreted that the earth is to
become contracted, or were men's idle fancy to
conceive similar calamities to befall mankind, it is
clear and manifest that no such happenings can
ever come to pass. They will assuredly protest
that this pre-requisite of divine revelation hath not
been made manifest. Such hath been and still is
their contention. Whereas, by "oppression" is
meant the want of capacity to acquire spiritual
knowledge and apprehend the Word of God. By
it is meant that when the Day-star of Truth hath
set, and the mirrors that reflect His light have departed,
mankind will become afflicted with "oppression"
and hardship, knowing not whither to
turn for guidance. Thus We instruct thee in the
interpretation of the traditions, and reveal unto
thee the mysteries of divine wisdom, that haply
thou mayest comprehend the meaning thereof, and
be of them that have quaffed the cup of divine
knowledge and understanding.
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 13:55:01 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: re: "Surah of Blood" and "Erotic imagery"
Dear Juan C. and John W.
I want to add my voice to those expressing their appreciation to
Juan for posting his translation of the "Surah of Blood" as well as the "the
Tablet of the Deathless Youth". These items, as well as John Walbridge's
"Erotic imagery" in the writings of Baha'u'llah move me a little closer to
an answer to some of my most clumsily formulated questions. It's the kind
of stuff that makes we want to shut up and listen and helps me resist the
urge to shout from the sidelines. Thank you. Juan, I would like to read
your "literary analysis" from "Poetics Today" and John - more on the same
theme - please.
LBG's
Gordon
****************************************************
"whatever seeks to exist and endure also desires to be one; for without
unity, existence itself cannot be sustained" (Boethius 524 A.D.)
****************************************************
Gordon A. McFarlane e-mail: McFarlane@upanet.uleth.ca
919 11th Street South phone: (403) 327-2987
Lethbridge, Alberta; Canada
TlJ 2P7
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 16:28:15 -0500 (EST)
From: Jackson Armstrong-Ingram
To: Loni Bramson-Lerche
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: re sex and values
I do not know how the book you are reading is defining terms (although I
must admit to raised eyebrows at anyone using the hoary old term horde)
but as i would use them "sex" is a biological matter referring to subsets
of species which can share genetic information with one or more other
subsets to result in a new generation that combines genetic information
from all parents in a package that is distinct from any one parent,
higher animals have 2 sexes some more creative lower life forms have a
lot more (there is a slime mold with 11); "gender" refers to a social
status with an associated role (set of behaviors). There is no given
connection between gender and sex. There are well over a 100 societies
with third gender roles; their marriage patterns reflect this.
Jackson
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 16:05:09 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: Alex Tavangar
Subject: Re: authority rules
At 10:20 AM 1/29/96 PST, Philip wrote:
>Dear all,
>
>I've been thinking about this kafuffle concerning human rights.
>
>I'm growing rules of thumb, here. What do you think?
>
>People who already have administrative power generally believe that
>the world would go better if others would learn to respect authority.
>
>People whose power is rooted in talent don't share this sentiment.
>
>People little little personal power rarely argue for greater
>submission. They tend to argue for fairness.
>
>
Rules of thumb are at best approximate, and worst,... worst. However, they
are useful in rough construction cost estimating and other similarly
concrete pursuits.
The traditional definition of power and its source as well as the
appropriate response to it has been turned upside down (revolutionized) by
the creative impulse of the revelation of Baha'u'llah. The exact nature of
the new paradigm for power is not yet clear to us (IMHO).
For example, does or should power come from: material wealth, access to
information, barrel of a gun, scholarly pursuits and skills, service to
humanity, administrative enabling, protection of the environment, bearing
and raising of children, etc., etc.?
Once we decide what power is and why, should we show deference to the source
of power or the individual or entity that possesses it? Should power be
despised? Is it desirable to make an arrangement so that everyone can
experience power, or will we decide that power is an undesirable condition
which must be banned from the planet? Or ...
Given this preface, I think that while we should diligently and sincerely
explore this new frontier, we should not be aiming at, or imply complete
definition of the future state of social evolution through discussions at
such early stage in the dawning of the new day. After all, we have just
entered the twilight when the light is dim and many shadows appear to be
more real than they will turn out to be.
Although the human rights topic is related to the discussion of power, I was
moved to only comment on Philips' statements about power.
Best Regards,
Alex B. Tavangar
=END=
From: Dcorbett@aol.com
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 14:40:51 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Counselor...
Can I get the email address of the counselor who posted here recently
regarding Covenant Breakers... Or someone who is prepared to discuss
Covenant Breakers with the appropriate party who is running the America
Online Religion and Ethics forum where there are some serious problems with
people trying to undermine the covenant?
Thanks,
Dan Corbett
America Online
Manager software development for Information Retrieval.
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 13:38:44 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: Re: sex and values
What is the point of this? I don't get it!
Arsalan
>I offer this story for contemplation. Like much of real life it is
>complex in its implications.
>
>
>Some decades ago, an international teaching committee received letters
>complaining that a subsidized regional travel teacher was a notorious
>homosexual who was bringing the faith into disrepute and demanding that
>the committee withdraw their support from him. The committee sent in
>their own agent to investiagte. It was found that there was considerable
>jealousy of this travel teacher because he received financial support
>from the committee. He had been seen leaving a brothel in one city. It
>had been felt locally that this was an insufficient charge with which to
>attack anyone's reputation so he had been accused of being a homosexual.
>The committee's agent had a talk with the teacher about the conduct of
>his private live and suggested to the committee that it continue its
>support. Which was done.
>
>It should be noted that the agent was a woman as were most of the
>committee. It might also be noted that this committee had developed a
>unanimous policy that all matters were to be considered confidential to
>the committee and its agents and only such information as the committee
>agreed upon was to be shared with its NSA. The committee had developed
>this policy as it believed, based on its experience, that its NSA did not
>understand the cultural conditions under which the work supervised by the
>committee was
>undertaken and as it had also found that information it had given to the
>NSA and asked to be kept confidential had been publicly released by the
>NSA and put individuals in jeopardy.
>
>One member of the committee was also a member of the NSA. This member
>fully supported the policy, and would only share with the NSA information
>which had
>been specifically released by the committee. This NSA member was shortly
>thereafter appointed a Hand of the Cause. The local teacher was later a
>Counselor.
>
>Jackson
>
>
Arsalan J. Sadighi
"Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
that is clearly none of your business!" Battista
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 15:34:02 PST8PDT
Subject: Re: TV NATION - lost another battle in the culture wars?
Interesting! I don't know anymore details, but note the
TV Nation email server address in the appended text.
EP
> Date sent: Sun, 28 Jan 1996 21:04:16 -0600 (CST)
> Subject: TV NATION
> From: "Richard C. Logan"
> To: "Talisman"
> Dear Talismanists,
>
...snip
> I'm a little curious how they came to his attention but they were not
> identified as Baha'is (thank God) but there was a scene with them all
> sitting near a picture of Abdu'l-Baha.
>
> Richard
>
> Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
****************************************************************
Approved-By: TVNatFans@AOL.COM
Date: Thu, 4 Jan 1996 00:50:02 -0500
Reply-To: "Fans of Fox' TV NATION Television Series"
Sender: "Fans of Fox' TV NATION Television Series"
From: Veronica Moore
Subject: Happy New Year!
To: Multiple recipients of list TVNATIONFANS
January 3, 1996
Hi TV Nation Friends,
Happy New Year!!! So far, so good:)
TV Nation was named one of the best shows of the year by TV
Guide. In Jeff Jarvis's article "The Ten Shows that Clicked" TV
Nation was named number seven. The article stated "TV Nation
Michael Moore's deliciously subversive parody of nonfiction
TV--and of America--was plain genius. Too bad NBC was too timid
to keep it and Fox didn't have the guts to renew it. Will somebody
somewhere on the dial please give this guy a video soap box? The
nation needs him.(NBC)"
BTW--I've been on vacation since December 15th so I was unable to
answer any of your mail. Michael and I have since read the mail
and appreciate all your messages.
We'll be sending out a newsletter soon:)
Until Later,
Veronica Moore
TVNatFans Coordinator
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 18:59:46 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: re sex and values
Loni and Jackson:
Yes, it is true. Gender is socially and culturally constructed, just like
every other category in human society. I would venture a guess that all
societies, including our own, recognize at least three genders and probably
more. It is also true that some of these genders are more fully developed in
the cultural vocabulary than others--but I am not sure that makes a
difference.
Some have suggested seven genders for American society. (Anyone want to
guess what they are?) I am not an expert in that. But, I do know that in
African societies, room is usually made for more than one gender. Also,
American Indian cultures.
Tony
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 19:22:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: Dcorbett@aol.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Counselor...
Dan: The Counsellor was our honored Stephen Birkland,
SBirkland@aol.com
He has been very supportive of Baha'i scholarship, and of Talisman as an
experiment, and we are all grateful for his help and guidance. To any
extent that the Baha'i scholars, grounded as they are in the languages
and in sound and accepted methods of documentary interpretation, can help
vindicate the Covenant, I am sure I speak for all in saying that we stand
ready to defend the Faith in this new territory of cyberspace--just as
some of us have already helped vindicate it in Middle East studies. As a
believer and as an academic historian, I have *two* reasons for believing
that the religion's central texts support the Succession as Baha'u'llah,
Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice.
cheers Juan Cole, History, Univ. of Michigan
On Mon, 29 Jan 1996 Dcorbett@aol.com wrote:
> Can I get the email address of the counselor who posted here recently
> regarding Covenant Breakers... Or someone who is prepared to discuss
> Covenant Breakers with the appropriate party who is running the America
> Online Religion and Ethics forum where there are some serious problems with
> people trying to undermine the covenant?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dan Corbett
> America Online
> Manager software development for Information Retrieval.
>
=END=
Date: 29 Jan 96 16:39:55 U
From: "Dan Orey"
Subject: FWD>Re- Talisman Survey
To: talisman@indiana.edu
GatorMail-Q FWD>Re: Talisman Survey
Dear Cyber family -
Talisman has had a profound effect on me, as well.
One of things that I have been sad about is not having Baha'is as friends. It
has been years since I lived in a community where there were people that I
could relate to. I hope this doesn't sound snotty, its just that I've enjoyed
the Faith for the challenges of meeting and working with people that I wouldn't
have had I stayed a deacon in the Bethany Presbyterian Church in Oregon. But
there have been long lapses where I have not felt that I could share such
things as books, movies, tasteless jokes, and experiences related to my work.
Here I can be who I am.
I have learned that indeed there are numerous Baha'is of taste, quality, and
civilized behavior (even in Walla Walla) who have been so very loving, kind and
overall great to me. As a gay person of Faith, to have all of you there to
freely check, ask questions, and refer to while investigating this "dilemma"
has been the single most wonderful miracle in my life. There are no words to
express my gratitude to all of you, and to the Blessed Beauty for this bounty.
Because of the virtual community I have found here, I have returned to the
writings, and really look at a number of things in a fresh way. I thank you
all.
I have shared a few of our posts with faculty here in the religious studies
dept, which allowed me to get a number of books (donated by my neighboring
community) into our library.
I would like to say that Talisman has been the cause for the improvement of my
typing, but I have learned that we must not take advantage of God.
I have found that I am able to teach the Faith more as well, having this other
job - reading talisman - I have mentioned in classes to students and faculty
about my cyber friends - they often ask about talisman, which has led to at
least students going to the library to find the new books I put there....
We are indeed blessed to have each other...... Daniel
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: belove@sover.net
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Relationship between violent history and vi
Date: 29 Jan 1996 17:53:50 GMT
> Alice Miller is a writer who has influenced this level of thinking.
> It was her claim that people who abuse were themselves abused.
And this tends to be true. That is, abusers are far more likely to have been
abused than non-abusers. However an on-going study of all children going
thru' the Boston juvenile court system because of a traumatic incident,
whether child abuse, death of parents or whatever, showed in extensive
follow-ups that only about 15 per cent suffered from significant dysfuntional
behavior problems. The child psychologist doing the study found a similar
smaller study in the 30's that came up with a figure of about 13 per cent.
He attributes most of the difference to the ability to locate individuals as
an adult.
The academic paper was presented to a national conference of family
therapists in 1993 and received a standing ovation. It has since been touted
as largely destroying the philosophy of the recovery movement as a viable
theory.
The entire theory was based on faulty logical argument that said that because
most abusive individuals were abused as children, most abused children will
become abusers. It is of course an absurd idea; because if it were true then
by this time all humanity would be abusive; it would be seen as normal; and
there would be no discussion of the issue. However when this was pointed
out, it was claimed that the people making the argument were obviously in
denial and therefore inacapable of making an informed judgement.
Regretably,the conclusions of most of these self-help books are not based on
quality research. Among the most common errors they make is to use a
self-selected sample instead of one that is random; and questions that ensure
the result expected by the reseearcher. These are techniques that are used
to great success in advertising also. Readers of these books need to
remember that anecdotal eveidence *never* constitutes a proof; but this is
often the only evidence given.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 18:39:58 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Browne and the Baha'i Faith
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Talisman"
Dear Talismanists,
I wanted to preface the short essay I have written with a few remarks =
about the project, it seems, I have been involved with my whole life. =
That being my intention to compose a "Critique of Baha'i Reason and =
Modern Philosophical Methodologies" as an introduction to a Treatise =
on "Will, Perception, and Being : A Modern Philosophy for this Age."
The seeds of these thoughts can be perused in the exercise below. I =
hope the Friends will honor me with a few comments after reading this =
first stumbling step on my path. If I live long enough I hope to =
accomplish this daunting task in some form, God willing.
One finds the subject of Edward Granville Browne illustrative of a =
particular, difficult to resolve, issue, often discussed on our =
forum. Therefore, from an inquiry into the matter, the question =
arises: What is the relationship of the academic to a or all =
religion/s? Probably as many solutions as there are participants =
could be offered. IMO, however, Browne is a special case in point. =
Hence, I thought I would write a short essay describing some of the =
problems involved with integrating current "Academic Standards" =
within a meaningful discussion of the Baha'i belief structure as it =
applies to a whole array of philosophic questions, that Talismanists, =
of all stripes, grapple with. In order to accomplish this, I feel, =
Browne offers a good model, from which to throw light, on such an =
examination, and also define the difficulties our beloved H.M. =
Balyuzi faced as a prominent scholar in the Faith wrestling with a =
subject he was very close to--Edward Granville Browne--as an =
amplification of the idea that EMPIRICAL SELFLESSNESS should be at =
the forefront of any scholarly activity.
With this in mind, I feel I should point out the observation that, =
most Baha'is, I believe, and also those outside the Faith familiar =
with Browne and his work have always considered him a believer in =
some fashion, however oblique. I think, this was at least =
sub-consciously so, with H.M. Balyuzi; and it is reflected in his =
analysis of Browne's works in his short critique "Edward Granville =
Browne and the Baha'i Faith". IMHO, the implicit thesis of Mr. =
Balyuzi's work is: If the facts had been properly available to =
Browne and had he not made his unfortunate contacts with Azal and =
other's he would have become a Baha'i. I do not mean to say Mr. =
Balyuzi necessarily believed this, but what I am saying, is, this =
thesis is the logical consequence of what he didn't say. And that =
what is not said is often more revealing than what is. If this was =
the case, in Mr. Balyuzi's judgment, I believe, this would not be =
entirely accurate. Thus, I will proceed from the assumption that it =
was, his judgment, on the basis of an implicit statement, and see how =
it informs his analysis.
As I was rereading the aforementioned book I began to notice a trend =
that seemed to imply that Browne had simply been mislead--but not as =
a traditional historian, but rather, as a true investigator, looking =
into the claims of the Bab, Baha'u'llah, and Azal. Unfortunately, =
there doesn't appear to be, from what I have read of Browne, =
anything to indicate an interest on his part in investigating the =
essential prophetic claims, or the inner aspects of the "Twin =
Revelations". Browne, IMHO, was observing a movement that he =
considered historically important, and personally intoxicating, which =
was possessed of progressive ideas but nothing else. It is true that =
he wrote movingly of Baha'u'llah and the Master, as Mr. Balyuzi =
points out, but I believe this was more in the way of human =
admiration, or possibly Browne was responding rightly in spite of =
himself.
It may be of interest to the reader to notice where the distinguished =
Mr. Balyuzi writes, "Thus died Shaykh Ahmad-i-Ruhi, (supposed =
participant in the authoring of the "Hasht Bihisht") who was in large =
measure responsible for the course that Edward Granville Browne was =
to pursue." (ibid, p.28) Here Mr. Balyuzi seems to be implying =
things might have been different if it weren't for Browne's =
association with Shaykh Ahmad-i-Ruhi, and the clumsy work, the "Hasht =
Bihisht". I believe his course was inevitable given his APPROACH, =
and that it would make no difference (except that God decree =
otherwise) who he came into contact or associated with. But that will =
be discussed more fully later.
I believe the course Browne followed was a logical one given he was =
interested in investigating the circumstances of the Babi movement =
which had fired his imagination and in which he invested his personal =
life struggle, metaphorically. The distinguished and beloved H.M. =
Balyuzi says in his introduction, when elegantly summarizing his =
intent for the book; and remarking upon Browne's erroneous =
scholarship: "But in the works of this renowned scholar (Browne) =
Mirza Yahya is given a prominence which is misleading" (ibid p.6) =
One cannot help but remark upon this "supposition"--that it is not =
really so; because Browne was not a Baha'i. Even from the Baha'i =
standpoint it's not necessarily the case, as Azal is the foil to =
Baha'u'llah's transcendent greatness and the inescapable shadow to =
His effulgent light. Moreover, to the unenlightened historian, he =
was a very prominent figure, on his own merits, who to the untrained =
eye, was being suppressed to some degree. Browne, it seems, due to =
his prejudice, was struggling at times, as Mr. Balyuzi rightly =
points out, with a sifting of the facts and he was torn by the =
academic ethics involved in standard historical research.
Along this line, Mr. Balyuzi quotes Brown in the appendices to his =
translation of a Traveller's Narrative saying, "Yet no feeling of =
gratitude or friendship can justify the historian (whose sole desire =
should be to sift and assort all statements with a view to eliciting =
the truth) in suppression of any important document which may throw =
light on the object of his study. ( Hasht Bihisht) Such an action =
would be worse than ingratitude; it would be treason to the truth". =
(ibid, p .33) I will discuss more about this tenet of academia later =
in my disquisition, but let me note that this demonstrates the =
academic nature of his investigation rather than it being a spiritual =
search on the part of Browne. Of course all of our lives are a =
spiritual journey, but I am trying to distinguish between the =
fortunate circumstance Browne found himself in, and the actuality of =
his motives.
Another example of Mr. Balyuzi's questionable analysis are his =
statements about Azal's role as nominal head of the Babi community in =
relation to Browne and his analysis. To digress for a moment, the =
question of Azal has always seemed like a controversial area, to some =
extent, among Baha'i historians; and various explanations have been =
given, by Nabil and others. But Mr. Balyuzi seems torn on this =
issue, and of course no one seems to really know what Azal's status =
was for certain. But there seemed to be a de facto agreement amongst =
the Babis, at least initially, that he was the Bab's successor. This =
taken aside, Mr. Balyuzi quotes Browne again where he says, "In my =
opinion it is proved beyond all doubt that the Bab ere his death =
chose him (Azal) as his successor..." (ibid p. 37) Be that as it =
may- and I don't dispute Mr. Balyuzi's assertion (ibid pp.37-41) that =
there is no proof for this. Nonetheless, for the historian, the mere =
fact that the Babi community treated him as such, in conjunction with =
some documents that Azal produced, led Browne to his conclusion. At =
any rate, I believe Browne was looking for anything he could to turn =
back the tide of Baha'u'llah's ascension in the Babi community, as he =
saw it. Browne never seemed to concern himself with Azal's behavior =
or fitness for the position of leadership, and in my estimate, showed =
a decided lack of acuity in these matters, that can only be explained =
by a predisposition to keep the Babi Faith as he remembered it from =
Count Gobineau's account of the Bab in "Religions et Philosophies =
dans L'Asie Centrale".
Browne's errors, from my perspective as a Baha'i scholar (which I =
don't feel separates me from any other serious scholar) were not the =
result of the information he received but the fallacious methodology =
he employed. He didn't approach things Scientifically, as his =
conclusions were already present in his hypothesis. The modern =
scholar proceeds empirically and reports on their findings without =
reference to how they would have liked an inquiry to have turned out. =
It seems clear from Browne's obvious disappointment, chronicled in, =
"A Year Amongst the Persians" with the fact that the Bab was no =
longer the center of interest among the believers reveals that the =
conclusions he reached, were prejudicial; and his investigation was =
derailed from that time onward. If he were a true investigator he =
would have approached things without a European bias and Christian =
condescension. He
nature of the Bab's claims and proceeded from there. This, however, =
apparently, was never his intention in the first place.
I believe Browne to be an excellent example of what the modern =
scholar should not do, if he wishes to penetrate to the heart of the =
matter. It can never be enough to simply pay homage to the forms of =
scholarly endeavor i.e. examining all the facts. Science has shown =
this to be a fools paradise as the investigator through his =
examination alters the facts according to his predispositions. This =
also seems to be the case even with, one, so renowned as H.M. =
Balyuzi, who devoted a great deal of his research to a subject, but =
never seemed to grasp the nature of his study , or at least the =
implicit message seems to show that flaw.
IMHO, Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha have instructed us in a new form =
of scholarship that I earlier characterized as Empirical =
Selflessness. This discipline requires, in addition to the =
observance of rigorous scholarly methodology, also, the equally =
important aspect of self-examination by the scholar and freedom from =
prejudice, superstition, and any other form of self-indulgence. This =
form of scholarship reintroduces the idea that character, and a will =
to learn enhance perception and ensure the best results for every =
scholarly or scientific project. Something along the lines of =
quality control in manufacturing, but taken to the level of =
"spiritual re-enforcement" for scholarly efforts. Otherwise a clear =
examination cannot take place and the veil of self will obscure the =
beauty of the scholar's findings.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: asadighi@ptialaska.net
Cc: Don_R._Calkins%*@commonlink.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Continental Counselors
Date: 29 Jan 1996 18:31:12 GMT
> a letter from the Universal House of Justice that states that
> Counsellors indeed have a higher rank than Nationsal Spiritual Assemblies.
Well, I may have been wrong one or two other times, too 8-)
Do you (or anyone) have a source? books and page, chapter and verse?
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 19:33:56 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: sex and values
Though Jackson's post on Robert Hayden was the very embodiment of discretion,
it need not have been. I think that his bisexuality is pretty well known in
literary circles, so there is nothing to hide. Though I suppose the Baha'i
biography of him and his work fails to mention it at all.
Richard Hollinger told me that Laura Barney and her sister Natalie shared
an apartment in Paris during their later years. (Richard, correct me, if I
got this wrong.) No, of course there was no sexual relationship--but they
were reconciled to one another in old age. I hope that the Baha'i community
does not have to grow old before we find a similar reconciliation.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
Date: Mon, 29 Jan 1996 18:25:47 -0800 (PST)
From: David M Simmons
To: Brian Roberts
Cc: Talisman , "Baha'i Discuss"
Subject: Re: Attitudes to physical appearance
Friends,
Please read the following. Why are we hearing things like this?
Why are we picking on eachother? Substitute the words "gay" or "black" or
"disabled" or "Persian" or "academic" or "poor" or "ex-druggy" or
anything and we would be horrified. We're not in this religion to all be
Pepsi commercial models.
Baha'u'llah teaches unity in diversity.
Baha'u'llah teaches us to look for the positive and have a
sin-covering eye. We are supposed to make one another happy and uplifted,
not critique one another's personalities and appearances. Doesn't this
smack of "easy familiarity"?
We are all damaged goods. Let's look beyond that and get on with
teaching. Unless we stop bickering with one another we are not going to
be very convincing to others.
David Simmons
Spokane Valley, WA, USA
> As to experiences within the Baha'i community, or without for that matter.
> I've had more hassle from my Baha'i family than I've ever had from my
> friends, biological family or folks I worked with.
> Folks, fat is here to stay for the forseeable future!! There are many of
> us. We are part of the Baha'i community. We are part of the world. Unless
> our fellow believers can accept us as large flowers in the garden of life,
> without telling us how to prune our petals and leaves to fit it, we're never
> going to have entry by troops. Who would have told William Sears he was too
> fat?
=END=
[end of 1/29/96 session]
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