Talisman Bahai Archives Jan. 22-26, 1996
Jan 22-26, 1996
Talisman emails received 1/22/96
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Date: Sun, 21 Jan 96 19:46:47
From: "Stockman, Robert"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: unsubscribing
Dear Friends:
I regret that I have to unsubscribe from Talisman for a while. My
teaching load at DePaul is heavy this term and severely cuts into my
time available to work at the National Center. Even though I am
technically part time at the National Center and full time at DePaul
this year, in fact I have had to function as a full time employee at
the Center because of all the tasks I volunteer to do, or even
initiate. The Wilmette Institute has been the most beloved and
time-consuming. We have 52 students hard at work on the home study
component, and the summer residential session is taking shape quite
nicely. Over four years the students will do as much work as a
Master's degree, and now possibly they will be able to get some credit
for the work. But finishing the paperwork for that and designing the
program and its myriad details is taking me (and a few others) a lot
of time. Worse, I have eight written exercises from 52 students to
grade, and I have done one so far! So grading gets priority over
Talisman. Perhaps I will be back if I can catch up on everything
else.
-- Rob Stockman
=END=
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 19:37:33 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: farmers and intellectuals?
Dear Friends:
I am often puzzled by this persistent bandying about of the terms
"intellectuals" and "anti-intellectuals" within the Baha'i community. Every
human being, whether a farmer, a historian, a physicist or a poet is an
intellectual, as well as a spiritual, physical, and emotional being. We
differ only in the empasis we place on one aspect of our being over the
others, how we exercise and focus our capacities, and the type and degree of
discipline we apply to our lives. To refer to any individual as an "anti
(or non) intellectual" is no less a denial of their basic humanity as
suggesting that they are an "anti-spiritual" or "anti-physical" being.
Those who consistenty employ the word "farmer" in juxtaposition with
"intellectual", implying that the former is the closest thing to an
antithesis of the later, only display an imbalance in their own intellectual
development. I know many farmers and none of them are lacking in intellect.
I understand the intent of such terms as they are used here on
Talisman, is not malicious, but I think we frequently fall into the trap of
assuming a consensus on a specific denotative value of certain words and
overlooking the fact that most words in our language carry with them a
tremendous amount of connotative and emotional baggage, not to mention the
cultural implications.
In 1959, C.P. Snow wrote "The Two Cultures" in which he discusses
the dichotomy between the "Scientific" and "Intellectual" "cultures". It's
an interesting book but many in the scientific community found Snows'
categorization offensive. Scientists are also "intellectuals". Some later
scholars who wrote the same theme, substituted the word "humanistic" in
place of "intellectual". Of course this implied that philosophy, literary
and other arts, and the so-called soft sciences were more "humanistic" than
the so-called hard sciences, which is certainly not the case.
In his introduction to the "Sleepwalkers" A. Koestler writes . . .
"In the index to Arnold Toynbee's "A Study of History", the names of
Copernicus, Galileo, Descartes and Newton do not occur. This one example
among many should be sufficient to indicate the gulf that still separates
the Humanities from the Philosophy of Nature. I use this outmoded
expression because the term 'Science' which has come to replace it in more
recent times, does not carry the same rich and universal associations which
'Natural Philosophy' carried in the seventeenth century. . . "
Clearly, words have different connotative and emotive values for
different people based on each persons frame of reference. (for example, it
seems strange to me that an individual who on the one hand would criticise
"literalism", (a restrictive, denotative reading of a text) would, on the
other hand insist upon a literal and restrictive reading of a specific
phrase from the Aqdas.)
That the tendency to categorize and dichotomize is an integral part
of our language and culture is an inescapable fact. But to succumb,and
perpetuate this tendency is to be at the mercy of language and culture
rather than employing them as tools of learning.
Much of the conflict that exists between the dominant culture in
North America, and that of many Indigenous cultures, has arisen from the
inability of the former to integrate, balance and develop its
intellectual, spiritual, physical(material) and emotional dimensions, and
an inability on the part of the later to comprehend how these four
dimensions can be viewed as separable.
As Baha'is we are "challenged to draw on (our) collective
inheritance (i.e. the wealth of all the genetic and cultural diversity that
has evolved through past ages) to take up, consciously and systematically,
the responsibility for the design or (our) future. (The Prosperity of
Humankind pg1)
This challenge to "draw upon our collective inheritance" does not
suggest to me a perpetuation of the syncretisim exercised by Western
Civilization in the past - (that is to say, borrowing elemements from other
cultures and modifying and adapting them to fit a dominant world view), but
rather striving to comprehend a point at which the diversity of World views
naturally converge.
This does require a "searching reexamination of our attitudes and
assumptions" and perhaps a good place to start would be to examine some the
conceptual metaphors on which we base our interactions with one another.
Lakoff & Johnston offer the example: "argument is war". We establish a line
of defense, we look for weak points in our opponents defense. Sometimes
we're right on target. If our strategy is poorly developed we're wiped out
or shot down. If we were suddenly thrust into a culture where "argument is
dance" we would be clusmy partners indeed with our anti-dancing shoes.
My whole point here was to suggest we be a little more word
sensitive. I see I've gone off on a tanget once again - (It's in my nature)
LBG's
Gord
---
Gordon McFarlane e-mail: MCFARLANE@upanet.uleth.ca
919 11th Sreet South
Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada
T1J2P7
(403)327-2987
=END=
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 19:38:12 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: The Word Unfolds (was The Nightmare (was Probably Some Cult in the
Bahamas))
In mid-December I wrote several short anecdotal items; "Probably Some Cult
in the Bahama's" and "The Nightmare" describing an incident, or series of
incidents in my life that have increased in significance with every passing
year and which I have long wanted to put into writing. I posted them on
Talisman along with a threat to post the rest of the story within a month.
I got carried away. What I now have is a rather lengthy and growing
manuscript, tentatively titled "Dodging God". Obviously I can't post the
entire ms on Talisman but since a number of kind souls have e-mailed me to
please continue, I'll post the two relevant episodes.
THE WORD UNFOLDS (1977)
"Have you ever heard the word 'Baha'i'?"
I really don't know what prompted me to ask that question. It came out the
blue. It was off-the-cuff. I was just breaking the silence while I tried to
sketch a diagram of the sewing table the woman in my kitchen was asking me
to build. The question evoked a look of shock and astonishment.
I passed the paper to her. "Is this more or less what you want?"
She took the paper but didn't look at it. Instead she smiled rather
curiously at me. "I'm a Baha'i" she said with obvious delight.
For a moment I rather regretted having asked the question. I'd had my fill
of people trying to sell me their religion and didn't want to open the door
to another one. But I'd known Roberta for over a year. She was one of a
trio of rather eccentric women who were becoming quite good friends with
my family and visited us frequently.
We got to know D.S. first. She was an elderly Metis woman who Valerie and
her mother had had some contact with during the time they had been involved
in establishing the Native Friendship Centers in Pincher Creek and
Lethbridge. D.S. was a tall, stern looking, kind hearted,
self-described "shit disturber". She was the founder, president and only
active member of the Lethbridge Human Rights and Civil Liberties
Association, (LHRCLA), president of the Lethbridge chapter of the Metis
Association as well as the local Alberta Stauts of Women's Action Committee
(affectionately know as Ass-Whack). She was also a self-styled mystic.
She had a plaque on her wall which read in part, "Be an upholder and
defender of the victim oppression." Indeed she was that. The plaque also
bore the words, "Be fair in thy judgement and guarded in thy speech". She
might as well have blotted that part out. Her one-sided snap judgements
and unguarded speech on behalf of those she suspected were victims of
oppression explained why she was the only active member of the LHRCLA.
One Sunday morning while Valerie and I were out for a stroll, she stopped
and said. "I think this is where D.S. lives. I haven't seen her in years.
Let's see if she's home". She was; and once she had succeeded in
clearing a space for us to sit among the books and papers in her front room,
which resembled an alchemists den, she procceed to interrogate me on my
personal history. Within two hours she'd learned everything about me worth
knowing, had directed me to build 3 large hanging planters for her so she
could get her "cussed plants" out of the way, and had persuaded Valerie and
I to enroll in an introductory course on Anthroposophy that she was
offering, gratis, to anyone interested.
As I was going through a rather cultish phase at the time, we continued to
visit D.S. and it was during those visits that we met and became friends
with the other two woman, Doris and Roberta. In addition to being very
interesting individuals to talk with, they helped me suppliment my income
by having me build linen closest, desks, hutches and what-not. We talked
about Theosophy, Anthroposophy, Rosicrucianism, Kabbalism, Freemasonry, the
religious customs of the Blackfoot, Cree, Hopi, Navaho, Sioux, and
Iroquois. But not until the day I asked Roberta, "Did you ever hear the word
Baha'i?" did that subject ever arise.
I didn't get a sales pitch. Roberta just said "I'm a Baha'i", seemed
distracted for a moment, looked at the sketch and added, "No, no. I want
more drawers. Only one shallow drawer. I want all the other drawers deep."
"You want a desk then". I smiled. "Not a sewing table." I poured myself a
glass of scotch, my third of the morning, took another clean sheet of paper
and began another sketch. "Do you have a book or something?." I asked.
Roberta was hard of hearing, a disability which she adamantly denied,
insisting that she could hear perfectly as long as people didn't mumble.
She had a speech impediment as well, which seemed to be more a consequence
of poorly fitted dentures than of her disability. "Yes. I want a
bookshelf too." she said.
I rephrased my question and spoke louder. "Do you have a book about Baha'i
religion?"
Roberta smiled and put her hand on my arm. "I'll bring you a book. You
don't have to shout. I'm not deaf you know."
The following morning, Sunday, she arrived at 8:00 am., not with a book,
but with a box of books.
I'd been up reading until 5:00 a.m. I had strange sleeping habits in
those days; a consequence of the recurrent nightmare that had plagued me
for so long. I slept in one to three hour shifts, never let my guard down,
never went too far into that other world, tried to stay clear of the
Kilarney Road. It didn't always work. The nightmare would return, I'd
struggle frantically back to consciousness, splash cold water on my face,
drink scoth and coffee, smoke cigarrettes and read. Sometimes it drove
Valerie crazy but she'd grown accustomed to my idiosyncracies. I'd slept
well that morning and was more that a bit annoyed when my three year old
daughter shook me awake, saying. "Daddy, Alberta's here."
There was a strong scent of sweetgrass mingled with that of brewing coffee.
Valerie often burned sweetgrass and prayed in the morning. She'd been doing
it more frequently since her mother was in the Foothills Hospital. Prayer
was someting that seemed quite natural to her. I only prayed in moments of
desperation. Pray, put on some coffee, go for a walk before the kid's
wake up. That was her morning ritual.
Bleary eyed, I stumbled into the front room with my trousers pulled on over
my pyjamas and my shirt unbuttoned and inside out. Roberta had taken the
liberty of pouring coffee for both of us so there was no need for me to do
anything but say "good morning" and flop in the armchair across from her.
Jessica was snuggled up beside her munching on cookie.
After scolding me for sleeping all day, and not being out walking with
Valerie and making the most of this beautiful morning, she began taking
the books from the box on the coffee table.
"I went to see D.S." she began, "and told her you had asked for a Baha'i
book and I wasn't sure which book I should lend you."
I mumbled something like, "I - uh, was thinking, ah, more along the lines
of a pamphlet or something".
"Don't mumble - I can't understand you when you mumble."
I shouted. "I meant to ask for a pamphlet or something like that."
"I didn't say shout. I'm not deaf you know." she replied, "And you did
ask for a book."
I yawned, made an effort to appear more hospitable and attentive, sipped
my coffee, picked one of the books from the table and began flipping through
the pages.
"Is D.S. a Baha'i too?"
Roberta aswered with an emphatic " yes!", her dentures making a little
smaking sound like they always did when she was agitated. "But she's a
stubborn, bull headed woman!"
It seemed a peculiar answer to me. "I know she's stubborn. I just asked
if she was Baha'i."
Poor Roberta seemed to have less of her wits about her than I did. "Well,
she is, but she's not . . . . Never mind. I'll explain that to you some
other time."
At that moment, Valerie came back in from her walk, greeted Roberta with a
cheerful and hearty "Good Morning", invited her to have breakfast with us
and directed me to wash my face and get decent.
When I re-emerged, looking somewhat more presentable, Roberta and Valerie
were engaged in a lively conversation in the kitchen. Jason was in his
highchair smashing one of the cookies Roberta had brought with a wooden
spoon. Jessica, evidently displeased about being told to put the other
cookies away until after she'd had breakfast, was still sitting in the front
room with her arms folded and the corners of her mouth drawn down. The books
were on the kitchen table. I picked up the largest one and glanced at the title.
"Well, this is appropriate. The Dawnbreakers." As I leafed through the
pages a printed blue card fell to the floor.
Roberta stooped to pick it up and waved it at me. "This is just in there as
a bookmark. Don't put your name on it or send it in."
I took the card from her, glanced at both sides, saw it was an application
card of some sort, said "Don't worry. I won't sign anything", hesitated a
moment, and then asked "Why shouldn't I".
In her usual endearing and demanding manner she said. "You only sign that
card if you're sure you want to be a Baha'i and you can't be sure of that
untill you've studied all these books! And D.S. told me to make sure I told
you that!"
Throughout the week that followed I read a paragraph or two from each of
the five books Roberta had left. A phrase here or there would spark my
interest. Then it would dwindle. I'd been reading a James Clavel novel,
"'Shogun" and kept setting aside Roberta's books and going back to that. I
was a bit intimidated by the "Dawnbreakers"; mainly by the long Persian
names I couldn't pronounce. But on Friday, after getting home from work and
having my one hour of sleep, I settlled down with a 6 pack of Pilsner and
"The Dawnbreakers". It soon became evident to me that this book should be
accompanied by stronger spirits. I went to buy a bottle of Chivas Regal and
returned to it. By Saturday Evening I had finished both the book and the
scotch; and while admittedly I had initially been moved by the spirits I
consumed, that evening, for the first time in my life I felt moved by
spirits of quite another kind.
Sunday, Val and I left the kids with K's and drove up to Calgary to visit
Madeline at the hospital. I took one of Roberta's books along. I drove and
and she read to me.
"You know what I find stange?" I said, as we stopped in Claresholm for
coffee. "I only have a vague recollection of hearing that word "Baha'i"
once before, 12 years ago or more. It's been lodged in my mind ever since.
It never occured to me to look it up. What promted me to ask Robeta if
she'd ever heard that word?"
"Not so strange," said Val. "Things unfold in there own good time."
---
Gordon McFarlane e-mail: MCFARLANE@upanet.uleth.ca
919 11th Sreet South
Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada
T1J2P7
(403)327-2987
=END=
From: Stephen Bedingfield
Subject: Obituary: Knight of Baha'u'llah Mary McCulloch (fwd)
To: ewilson@trianon.worldtel.com (Emery Wilson),
kwilson@tnc.com (Kevin Wilson),
vergeh@cadvision.com (Pat & Harry Verge), payams@inukshuk.gov.nt.ca,
Roxanne.Lalonde@UAlberta.CA (Roxanne Lalonde),
talisman@indiana.edu (Talisman)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 19:45:12 MST
Enclosed herewith is a copy of the Obituary we have prepared. A
printed copy, accompanied by a copy of the programme, a photograph,
and the text of the Tablet of Ahmad in Ukrainian, will be sent by mail
as soon as possible.
OBITUARY
KNIGHT OF BAHA'U'LLAH MARY ZABOLOTNY McCULLOCH
"The Universal House of Justice was deeply saddened to learn from your
email message transmitted on 8 January 1996 of the passing of your
dear wife, Knight of Baha'u'llah Mary Zabolotny McCulloch. You are
assured of its ardent prayers at the Sacred Threshold for the progress
of her soul in the Abha Kingdom. It will also pray on your behalf
and that of Laura, that you both may be strengthened and comforted
at this difficult time."
The above message was received from the Supreme Body of the Baha'i
Faith, on receiving news of the passing of Knight of Baha'u'llah Mary
McCulloch. Here is her story.
In our joint memoirs, she wrote: "Back in 1918, in the early hours of
a frosty November morning, on November the ninth, a baby girl was born
in Winnipeg. Her parents, Michael and Theodora [Olinyk] Zabolotny,
were of Ukrainian lineage, from those parts of Ukraine that had been
annexed by Austria-Hungary and Russia, respectively. That little girl
was later to be known as Mary Zabolotny, and her parents had come to
this new land, Canada, by ship across the Atlantic Ocean, to make a
new home for themselves in the cold and apparently inhospitable city
of Winnipeg. They met and were married there; my father being at the
time twenty-two and my mother not quite eighteen. Their wedding day
was a cold January 19th, 1915. My brother was born on November 11,
1916, and was given the name Vladimir; later he was called Walter,
because it was shorter and easier for the teachers at school to
pronounce (and spell). The last name usually had to be spelled out
also, as it was meaningless to the teachers, although in Ukrainian it
was a common name meaning `over or beyond the marshes'.
"Except for the occasional children's squabble, we were a happy
family, and if my father and mother had their arguments, I was always
the peace-maker, and had developed a talent for settling their
disputes. At a very early age I had also developed a talent for
drawing. At the age of seven I joined the library, and gained a love
of books. My parents taught us the love of art, music and poetry, and
emphasized many a time the importance of getting a good education, of
which they had been deprived themselves. They had left their homes so
early in their lives and had to struggle to earn a living in a new and
strange land, where they had had to learn English to subsist.
Therefore, my father taught himself to read and speak English, with
help from those he worked with, and from his children. He worked in
lumber camps and for the Canadian National Railways. He sold Ukrainian
books in his spare time, which resulted in our acquiring a collection
of Ukrainian novels, history and poetry, which my mother loved to read
to us. Some of these we still have. I remember the concerts every
Sunday evening, when we were expected to get up on the stage and
recite poems and sing in the choir or take part in little plays or
dramas, in the Ukrainian language, also the dancing, which seemed to
satisfy an artistic urge to express myself in that form. When we
attended public school, at Michael Faraday school, we were not
allowed to forget our own language, and had to attend classes in
Ukrainian after four o'clock; this was at times wearisome, but it
helped retain our identity. The children on our street were of
various backgrounds, English, Scottish, Welsh, German, Jewish and
Polish. In fact, Mother had a Jewish friend who assisted her as midwife
when I was born, as doctors were scarce, and there was no Medicare at
that time."
Mary's education was completed in Winnipeg. After elementary and high
school, she entered Wesley College (now the University of Winnipeg)
at age 15. For her second year she transferred to the University of
Manitoba. Finally, she went to the Winnipeg Art School. "At that time,
LeMoine Fitzgerald was the Principal of the School, and a most
understanding and wise teacher, whose students adored him. He had
been a member of the `Group of Seven' artists, who had become famous
for finding new ways of expressing Canadian art."
After she graduated, she worked in commercial art for a while. "At
that time I was also going back to Art School, for some refresher
courses in drawing and painting from life. There I met a fellow
artist, Frances Boyce, who was at the time also working as a
commercial artist."
Mary and Frances travelled in Yukon and Alaska for several years,
paying their way by working at whatever jobs were available, or by
selling some of their paintings. Their adventures and experiences are
far too numerous to detail here. "I then went home to Winnipeg. After
these painting trips were finished, and I was back home in Winnipeg,
I began to search for a way of life that would approach what my spirit
craved, although at the time I did not know what that was.
"I do not recall exactly when my dream happened. Many years ago I had
dreamt about the feast spread in our home, and the King and Queen and
many guests visiting us. I remember well the table bountifully spread
with good food, and the bejewelled wraps of the guests. The Queen
beckoned to me, and asked me to fetch her wrap from the closet. In the
closet were many garments, studded with jewels. Some of the furs were
colored, in purple, etc. There was a crimson evening gown hanging
upside-down. I wondered at this, and thought, `Is this mine?' Many
years later, after becoming a Baha'i I had read the Tablet of Ahmad
(which opens with the words "He is the King, the All-Knowing, the
Wise! Lo, the Nightingale of Paradise ...") one evening, and some of
the truth of the dream dawned upon me. `He is the King' - meant God -
and a new Revelation - the Nightingale was Baha'u'llah."
"Then, in 1951, a friend from my Art School days, Leonard Woods, sent
me a pamphlet on the Baha'i Faith, saying he thought I would be
interested. That was all he said, but after reading the Principles,
and a little of the history of the Faith, it seemed to me that I had
at last found the Truth, and was ready to support these Principles,
but I needed to know more about them. Leonard had said that a friend
would contact me, as he was in Vancouver himself. I waited three
months and no one contacted me. Then Leonard came from Vancouver to
Winnipeg on a holiday. He asked me if I would like to attend a
fireside at the home of Angus Cowan, a Winnipeg Baha'i businessman;
he was working for IBM at the time. That was to be a Friday night I
would never forget, as this was my first contact with Baha'is. Young
people met there every Friday to discuss various aspects of the Faith.
Angus and Bobby Cowan were very kind and hospitable, sharing much fun
and laughter, and with radiant hearts making everyone feel that they
were wanted and respected. Many speakers came to that house to talk
about some aspect of the Faith, including Glen Eyford and Jamie Bond,
both of whom later served on the National Spiritual Assembly of the
Baha'is of Canada."
Here is the letter received from the National Spiritual Assembly,
which summarizes very well the services Mary offered the Faith:
"To the family and friends of
Mrs. Mary McCulloch
"Dearly-loved Friends,
"We were most deeply grieved to learn of the passing of Mrs. Mary
McCulloch, and extend heartfelt condolences to her husband Ken, their
daughter Laura and her family, and Mary's many friends. Although we
mourn the loss of Mary's physical presence, we are comforted in the
knowledge that she has been freed from the limitations of this earthly
existence, to soar in other worlds of God.
"Mary's ardent love for the Faith and commitment to its principles was
evidenced by the generosity of her response to its needs. For over
four decades, Mary served with exemplary dedication. When she arose
to settle in Anticosti Island in 1956, she joined that small band of
Baha'is around the world who had achieved the honour of being named
`Knight of Baha'u'llah' by the beloved Guardian. This was the crowning
laurel in a life that was characterized by a spirit of loving service.
"In addition to earning the title "Knight of Baha'u'llah," future
Baha'i historians will record, with joy and gratitude, her many
contributions to the growth and development of the Faith in Canada.
Within months of her enrollment as a Baha'i, she helped form the first
Spiritual Assembly in Saskatoon, Saskatchewan. This was followed
shortly by her assisting with the formation of Spiritual Assemblies
in several localities in the province of Quebec, and then by her
service in Anticosti. For over twenty years, she served in Baker Lake
with her husband Ken and their dearly-loved daughter Laura, where the
McCullochs established Baha'i House, promoted translation of Baha'i
materials into Inuktitut, and, above all, conveyed the spirit and
principles of the Faith to their neighbours with tireless devotion.
For the past several years, Mary and Ken have been stalwart promoters
of the teachings of the Faith in The Pas, and in recent years, Mary
was able to assist with translation of Baha'i materials into Ukrainian.
"Mary's signal contributions to the work of the Cause were made with
quiet courage, steadfast dedication, and profound resolution. Although
we cannot be with you physically, we join you in spirit in offering
heartfelt prayers for the progress of this maidservant's valiant soul,
and for the comfort of her sorrowing family and many friends.
"With abiding love,
"Susan M. Lyons, Assistant Secretary."
Mary was not well when we attended the Observances of the Centenary of
the Ascension of Baha'u'llah, in Israel in May 1992, and at the Baha'i
World Congress in November 1992. Early in 1993 she had surgery for
cancer. She was quite well when we went on Pilgrimage to the World
Centre in Israel in November 1993. In April 1995 we went back to Baker
Lake for a one-week visit. In August 1995 she had an accident, and was
in hospital 19 days. She got weaker after that, and it appeared that
the cancer had come back. Finally, on January 7, she passed away. A
couple of weeks before her passing, she told one of the Home Care
people that she had fulfilled her life's objectives.
Her family wishes to publicly express its appreciation to the Baha'i
community of The Pas, and to the Home Care staff, for all the help
they provided at this time.
Mary was predeceased by her parents, her brother Walter, and her
grandson Shawn. She is survived by her husband, Ken, her daughter
Laura, son-in-law Robin Nablo, and grandchildren Curtis and Sumerlyn.
I will conclude with these words, written by the Custodians of the
Faith in 1958.
Words of the Custodians, read at the Baha'i World Congress, London,
England, 1963 (at which we were present):
"The work of Baha'u'llah lies before us to be completed. No one
generation will do this; a thousand years at least are required to
carry out and mature the specific provisions of His Dispensation. But
to each man his opportunity, to each generation its tasks. ... Great
moments in history require great deeds; great men are not necessarily
those best qualified to be great, but rather those who see their
chance and seize it, with love and courage, when it offers itself. The
records of our Faith show that its heroes and heroines, its saints and
martyrs, sprang mostly from the rank and file, but what they
possessed, which raised them to the summits of fame and glory, were
vision and faith."
Ministry of the Custodians, pp. 104, 106.
Kenneth C McCulloch
Kenneth C McCulloch |
Rings of Saturn Publishing | "The earth is but one country
Box 3440, The Pas, Man. | and mankind its citizens."
CANADA R9A 1S2 (204) 623-5517 | - Baha'u'llah
e-mail: r_saturn@mts.net |
--
Stephen Bedingfield | "We desire but
Box 115, Cambridge Bay NT X0E 0C0 | the good of the world and
Canada (403) 983-2123 | the happiness of the nations"
email: sbedin@inukshuk.gov.nt.ca | - Baha'u'llah
=END=
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 96 19:31:12 0000
From: ROBERT VALVERDE
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Subscription
Attn Owner
Please advise how I can subscribe to talisman.
Thanks
Robert Valverde
=END=
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 23:09:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand
To: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: War economies
Dear Brent, very good point and i too believe that it is only appropriate
to try and understand a comment or behaviour within the frame of
reference of the actor. But as a young person who wishes to see a
brighter future, i can not help but be shocked and horrified at comments
made by individuals such as the person i met, and unlike your father who
probably has a reason to make a connection like you mention, this
gentleman was not a product of any war, except maybe Vietnam.
But i appreciate what you are saying. i just hope that before we destroy
ourselves we realize that the way things are were not the way it was
meant to be when creation was created.
Regards,
Cheshmak Farhoumand
Institute for Conflict Analysis and Resolution
"i expect to pass through this world but once. Any good therefore that i
can do or any kindness that i can show to any fellow creature, let me do
it now. Let me not defer or neglect it, for i shall not pass this way
again."
author unknown
=END=
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 23:02:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: bahai-women@bcca.org
Subject: New Semester, new year (fwd)
Dear Friends, i just got this on my email from a friend. It seemed
approapriate to post as it talked of Professors, Publishings and Tenures.
Enjoy (and i hope it was not inapproapriate to post it.)
Regards,
Cheshmak
=============================================================================
WHY GOD WILL NEVER GET TENURE AT ANY UNIVERSITY
1. Only published two books
2. One was in Hebrew, the other in Arabic
3. Both had no references
4. He did not publish it in referenced journals
5. Some doubt He even wrote it Himself
6. He is not known for His cooperative work
7. Sure, He created the world, but what has He done lately?
8. He did not get permission from any review board to work with human
subjects.
9. When one experiment went awry, He tried to cover it up by drowning all
the subjects.
10. When sample subjects do not behave as predicted, He deletes the whole
sample.
11. He rarely comes to class-just tells His students to read the book
12. It is rumored that He sometimes lets His Son teach the class
13. Although He only has 10 requirements, His students often fail His tests
14. He expelled His first two students for learning
15. His office hours are infrequent and usually held on a mountain top
=END=
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 22:55:16 -0600 (CST)
Subject: A Haiku
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Talisman"
I learned to laugh.
I gained my humor from my
mother's tactfulness.
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 00:07:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: Alethinos@aol.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Views of the House & the American idea of Legal Positivism
Jim:
Would you please enlarge on what you mean by "legal positivism"? Do you
mean the Benthamite belief that only what law is actually implemented in
real settings is the law?
I have spent a great deal of time in the past year and a half
demonstrating that respect for individual rights; for due process; for
freedom of speech; for parliamentary forms of governance (including,
presumably the possibility of a loyal opposition), and for the exercise
of public Reason as a means of testing the continued value of laws and
ordinances--that all of these form part and parcel of the Revelation of
Baha'u'llah and of key works such as `Abdu'l-Baha's Secret of Divine
Civilization, Traveller's Narrative, and Promulgation of Universal
Peace. A number of Talismanians have reconsidered their views on this
matter in the light of this material, which I have tried to contextualize.
I am puzzled as to why you refuse to engage this argument, and simply
declare by fiat that there is some sort of incompatibility between Baha'i
ideals and human rights norms (if so, I should not think it something to
be proud of).
As to the value of our discussions on Talisman, I think they serve
several valuable purposes. First, they allow a public airing of how we
understand Baha'i documents, whether Tablets or letters from the House,
and the ensuing discussion often throws a great deal of light on them. I
was very ignorant, before Talisman, about large areas of the Faith that I
thought I understood or which I simply had not thought about at all. I
don't see what harm the discussions have done. Some entire communities
have gotten a charge out of them, and we've had declarations as a result
of them, and some people who were thinking of leaving the Faith have been
convinced to stay on by the mere presence of a forum where diverse views
are presented and open discussion is permitted. In any case, the
discussions cannot be made to cease as long as people are interested in
carrying them on. Even were Talisman banned, people could just set up an
anonymous chat group (on e-mail it is entirely possible to adopt other
personae and hide one's real identity). They are not going to stop the
discussion because you brand it useless. So, my brother, this is one
sermon I would drop.
cheers Juan
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 00:45:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: Gordon McFarlane
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: farmers and intellectuals?
Gordon:
I admire your populist zeal, but I fear you are simply misusing the words
"intellectual" and "anti-intellectual." Or at least you are not using
them as social scientists do.
All human beings possess intellect, but not all are professional or even
part-time "intellectuals," in the sociological sense, just as not all are
physicians or plumbers.
There are two main approaches to defining intellectuals in the
literature. One is to do it by occupational category; in this approach,
intellectuals are more or less identical to the "new class." They would
include academics, journalists, fiction writers, poets, attorneys,
actors, physicians, engineers, and other "symbol-workers." This
definition would in fact exclude farmers, unless they were farmers who
wrote books or something (there are some of those).
The other main approach, championed by Alvin Gouldner, is to define
intellectuals not by their social niche but by their values and style of
discourse. Gould posits that intellectuals are characterized by a
discourse of critical reason that constantly calls into question
statements based on authority rather than reasoning. Intellectuals
question and probe the status quo, ever seeking improvements in it.
By this criterion, opinion polls would appear to demonstrate that most
engineers and physicians are not "intellectuals;" and, obviously,
progressive midwestern farmers might be. This is my preferred
definition, and accords with what I see as the responsible role of the
intellectual in modern society, which is to critique the conditions of
our collective existence in the search for justice and equity.
The rise of a class of intellectuals, by either definition, is a
development associated with modernity, with urbanization, and with role
differentiation. In premodern societies %80-%90 of the populace
consisted of peasants; a very small literate elite in the urban areas was
comprised of bureaucrats, merchants and clergymen; most styles of
acceptable discourse were based in authority-statements, whether those of
the divine-right king or those of the divinely-inspired Church.
Religious institutions have not on the whole been happy with the rise of
the intellectuals. The Rushdie affair more or less encapsulates the
conflict, but many other examples could be given. The Roman Catholic
church lobbied against the establishment of the first chair in
anthropology in Paris in the late 19th century. Recently the Pope
attempted to silence liberal Catholics in central Europe who petitioned
for changes in Church policy. One major basis upon which ecclesiastical
officials dislike intellectuals is that they engage in the discourse of
critical reason and subject authority-statements to scrutiny. Most
religious officials would prefer abject submission.
The Baha'i faith was formulated as a religion that could tolerate, and
could even attract the allegiance of intellectuals (among others). But
it gradually has sunk back into the bad habits of the previous religions,
and many powerful Baha'is actively dislike intellectuals for the same
reason that most Cardinals and Ayatollahs do. This I view as a betrayal
of the promise and essence of the Baha'i Faith. Much energy is
apparently put into ensuring that no Baha'is practice the culture of
critical discourse, and into ensuring that they are all good little
foot-soldiers who salute and obey orders implicitly. Which is why there
is only one academic book, published by an academic press, by a Baha'i
academic (Peter Smith) on the Baha'i Faith; most intellectuals have
either left or figured out they should put their important energies into
something else.
As for anti-intellectualism, this is a well-documented phenomenon in
American society and politics. When Spiro Agnew castigated
"pointy-headed intellectuals," who exactly do you think he meant? People
like me. And he knew that a fairly powerful current in American popular
culture could thus be tapped. It is an old Rightwing ploy to make sure
that the possible natural coalition of the Left (intellectuals, male
white workers and workers of color, and pink-collar women workers) are
divided by silly hatreds based on education, race or gender.
So, in my view it is not useful to deny that there is a distinct social
stratum of intellectuals (whether occupational or discursive); and it is
positively dangerous to deny that prejudice against them exists in the
form of anti-intellectualism, *especially* in church hierarchies and
among authoritarian government officials. Intellectuals are not better
than anyone else, but neither are they any worse. And they can play a
useful service role to any group willing to embrace and tolerate them.
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 96 08:39:47+030
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: intellectualism and development
Dear Quanta and Sen:
Sorry to jump into the conversation, but a few observations I would like to
add prompt me to do so. Perhaps it is because we have involved in
"development" work for the past fifteen years in Kenya and Uganda in the
areas of environment and agroforestry and at the present time we are
struggling to understand the dynamics, and what is the best path to service.
Here are some of Don and my combined thoughts and experiences, for what they
are worth:
1. Knowledge transfer is not learning...that is the myth.
2. You are right, there is a lot of money wasted on hotels and expensive
workshops, and we need to develop more effective means of learning...there
are people experimenting all the time with new models...but the flip side of
that is that the host country often wants the expensive splash of a media
worthy event, they want the dollars spent in their countries, and the
"national experts" often won't come to a workshop unless it is in "suitable
accommodation", and often expect to be paid for attending (the per diem,
which often takes a lot of consultative time to arrive at what is "suitable"
according to their "position".) Then, of course, you must be careful to
arrange the rooms in such a way that "important" people are not offended by
being housed with the less worthy. When they leave, much of the knowledge
they have gained does not get applied...they are too busy off at the next
conference/workshop. There are many a house which has been built here from
money "earned" by attending conference/workshops outside the country.
People work hard to get on the "workshop circuit" as we call it. It begs
the question as to whether or not there is a better way of going about this
which does not encourage this materialism, and it also begs the question as
to what is in the heart of the "receipient". The transfer of funds through
traditional development channels creates a co-dependancy between doner and
receipient, and paralyses the development of the latter.
3. When the national experts become "experts", be it through university
degrees, or "lay" participation by farmers in workshops and conferences, the
result is the immediate adoption of a hierachy (often resident in the tribal
systems which is their heritage, built on and strengthened by colonialism)
which says they are far too important to go "into the field" anymore, and
get dirty. They feel they are entitled to "transport" usually in the form
of a car or vehicle accessible to them 24 hours a day for whatever purpose
they choose to use it for, and a driver to accompany the car who is also on
24 hour/7 days a week call, as they can not or will not drive themselves.
Money for petrol should also be available from project budgets for all their
private and work related use. They feel they are entitled to "respect" from
the people they are suppose to be serving, and this often takes the form of
the community "paying" the expert in some form, be it cash or kind. No
favours will be bestowed unless this is honoured. It can often result in
local experts becoming very resentful of expatriate personnel, because they
see the the expatriate as getting "their" money. If this money comes to
them, they do not necessarily use it to do their job better, they just
"eat". The dream of many students in the university system is to get to a
level where they too can "eat". The dream of many "leaders" in the field is
to get to a position in the community (usually through the commodity of
knowledge) where they are important, respected, and can have a change to
"eat". For those dear souls who are able to arise above this corruption of
the spirit (and they are there, and we do cherish them), they are usually
sidelined as being an impediment to this process. I have seen good people
in the field seduced by this thinking and become "big men/women".
4. There is a huge investment from both sides in the development game.
There is a huge employment rate of "experts" from government and private
sectors (the consultants), with a leaning more towards private consultant
firms hired for short term and long term implimentation of projects, so the
governments do not have to maintain a huge work force for implimentation.
The host countries are only too happy to have expatriate experts in the
country, and the privately owned housing (usually by people already with
money) is immediately spiffed up and rented at enormous rents...all
contributes to the economy you know. Prices of food in the markets, and
cost of local labour, not to mention tourism by those expatriates and their
families/friends contribute significantly to the economy of the
country....but not to the poor. So, the gap widens. It is quite a
dicotomy, the government wanting the expatriates for the padded income, and
the "local experts" resenting the hell out of what they perceive as "their
money" being used by the expatriate to live. It is a strange environment to
live in.
5. Peace Corp and such, where the volunteer lives in the rural setting with
their community on local terms is a highly successful program in many cases.
But it is not possible for us to raise our families in such a setting,
unless we are content to allow them to receive a local education, which is
often inadequate and won't even qualify them for a rehabilitation program in
North America where the education standards require certain levels of
achievement. Either that, or the school system (which is often the case) is
infested with such brutality that no one would want their children placed in
such a system voluntarily. If education were of a universal standard, and
available to all, it would immediately open up this avenue of service to
families. Therefore, families are "stuck" in large urban centers where
schooling is available (at a cost) and are held ranson to inflated living
costs. Boarding school is often not a good option, in my opinion. Yes, you
can indeed do home education (we have done it), but it is difficult. Also,
your children grow up in a culture which will never be theirs...they are the
wrong colour.
6. Much of the development money which pours into host countries would be
more than enough to stimulate the economies and agriculture output if it
were not for the corruption, desire for power and control, and nepotism
which exists rampantly. There is also quite a bit of intellectual awareness
and ability resident in the citizens of these countries (enough to make our
presence unnecessary) if they would use it to the service of their own
people instead of their own agrandisement and personal wealth. This is a
matter for the heart, not the pocketbook, and it is not all to be blamed on
"intellectuals". Unless and until host countries are able to get a handle
on some of these issues from within their own countries, development work
will in many cases be seed thrown on rock, with a bit landing in the cracks.
7. Taking into account these above observations, I agree with you 100% that
there needs to be changes made, we have to stop contributing to the
corruption and greed with our present development models, and there needs to
be a way to help communities develop themselves. There are "experts" from
both host and donar countries working in these areas, but there needs to be
more...a lot more.
8. In the obligatory prayer, we are called on to know and to love God.
Learning about any aspect of the world is fulfillment of this by learning
about some attribute of God. If intellectual pursuit achieves this
objective, then clearly it fulfills this purpose more than "development"
that often kills it. One would be hard pressed to find any country which
has "developed" primarily because of development agencies. The Writings
indicate civilizations develop on the basis of the knowledge brought by the
Manifestation.
Here is a little poem for you Quanta, I hope you pin it to your wall if you
don't already have a copy:
"The Development Set
Excuse me, friends, I must catch my jet-
I'm off to join the Development Set;
My bags are packed, and I've had all my shots,
I have traveller's cheques and pills for the trots.
The Development Set is bright and noble,
Our thoughts are deep and our vision global;
Although we move with the better classes,
Our thoughts are always with the masses.
In Sheraton hotels in scattered nations,
We damn multinational corporations;
Injustice seems so easy to protest,
In such seething hotbeds of social rest.
We discuss malnutrition over steaks
And plan hunger talks during coffee breaks.
Whether Asian floods or African drought,
We face each issue with an open mouth.
We bring in consultants whose circumlocution
Raises difficulties for every solution-
Thus guaranteeing continued good eathing
By showing the need for another meeting.
The language of the Development Set,
Strethches the English alphabet;
We use swell words like 'epigenetic',
'Micro', 'Macro', and 'logarithmetic'.
Development Set homes are extremely chic,
Full of carvings, curios and draped with batik.
Eye-level photographs subtly assure
That your host is at home with the rich and the poor.
Enough of these verses-on with the mission!
Our task is as broad as the human condition!
Just pray to God the biblical promise is true:
The poor ye shall always have with you.
Ross Coggins"
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 00:40:30 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: Alex Tavangar
Subject: Re: Arabic, knowledge, elitism
Since to my own dismay, I am unable to participate in the give and take that
goes on here as often as I would like to, I wish to express my gratitude for
the illuminating postings of a number of the list's distinguished
contributors such as Juan, John, and Richard. I would also like to make a
couple of comments about a posting by Juan a few days ago which I was just
able to read:
At 12:52 PM 1/15/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Baha'u'llah in the
>Suratu'llah says that one oppressed is better than a city full of
>tyrants, and a subordinate is better than a thousand superiors. In the
>Baha'i Faith, the weak, the poor, the oppressed are considered *superior*
>to the middle class and the wealthy; in Liberation Theology this is
>called an "option for the poor."
Although you did put the word *superior* in quotes, and perhaps because you
did, It would be helpful if you also elucidate on the exact qualities that
would make any person superior to another in the sight of God (in the sight
of people any reason may be seen as valid). Are worldly possessions or rank
qualifiers in this quote?
>I continue
>to like Steve Scholl's comparison of them to plumbers. They are persons
>with specialized knowledge who can perform a service for others who have
>not had the time or interest to acquire that knowledge.
I also like the analogy of plumbers. I would however point out that other
professions have, and will continue to help plumbers improve their craft.
The health professionals, chemists, and engineers were responsible for
discovering the adverse health effects of lead pipe joints and providing
alternatives for plumbers to use. Left to their own devices, plumbers would
have continued to use this poisonous element in water pipes as they did for
centuries.
No science is an island unto itself...
Regards,
Alex B. Tavangar
=END=
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 23:34:11 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
Subject: Education Conference
Dear Talismanians,
Just received this forward and thought you might be interested. Baha'is in
the Pacific are preparing to begin the last push of this century. Are we?
Doug Myers
>Date: 22 Jan 96 01:34:48 EST
>From: MARK REDDY <74542.2114@compuserve.com>
>To: Lucinda Chavez <75023.3214@compuserve.com>,
> Renee Depew ,
> Lance & Debrah Hurt <76102.663@compuserve.com>,
> Doug Myers
>Subject: Education Conference
>
>Allah'u'Abha!
> Dear Friends,
> This just in from Taraz Samandari, thought might be of interest. Also,
>Taraz is engaged to be married April 27!
> Baha'i love,
> mark
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Dearest Taraz,
>
> I hope you're well and happy. How's your family doing? Please give
>everyone my love when you talk to them. I'll send you new about what I've
>been doing recsently, later. But right now I thought you'd like to read
>about some very
>inspiring happenings, right off the press! Bill Barnes is the Principal of
>Daystar International School, Japan.
>
>Hasta pronto,
>
>Judith
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 18 January, 1996
>Dear Friends,
>
>I have just returned from a wonderful week in New Zealand, attending the
>Spiritual Axis Educators Conference and the International Conference. Let
>me state straightaway, that I believe the Baha'is in the region of the
>spiritual axis are poised to do some remarkable things for the Faith.
>Especially, in the area of education, there seems to be a sense that we
>Baha'is must reclaim our children from the awful clutches of the old
>world's vicious materialism.
>
>At every conceivable opportunity I was approached by Baha'is wanting to
>know more about Daystar School, asking advice on how to set up a Baha'i
>school in their area, with requests for the materials that IEI
>(International Educational Initiatives) has produced on educational
>philosophy, curriculum and teacher training. I was breathless and
>exhilarated at the same time. if feelings and urges are acted upon, there
>will be a dramatic increase in the need for Baha'i teachers in the next
>couple of years--by Baha'i teachers I don't mean teachers who are Baha'is,
>but teachers who approach their discipline from the perspective of the
>Baha'i Writings. Such teacher training is a must!
>
>Moral education is a universal need, from the centers of materialism to the
>remotest jungle villages. Interestingly enough, the problems faced in these
>opposite places are remarkably similar--not just drugs, alcohol, and
>rampant immorality, but confusion, anxiety for the future, meaninglessness,
>and social breakdown. Baha'u'llah upset the world's equilibrium, and that
>includes the equilibrium of the traditional cultures of the most distant
>villagers also. There truly is no place to hide, as the Bible said.
>
>The educators conference was attended by more than fifty people. Seven
>Baha'i schools were represented. The presentations were varied and
>stimulating. They ranged from established Baha'i schools, such as Daystar
>and the School of Nations in Macau, to the individual initiatives of
>self-help and personal transformation. To gather such a variety of
>approaches to the field of education together gave a graphic picture of the
>vastness of the field, of the richness of ways and means to enter into it,
>and of the potentials and possibilities which good education holds. It also
>served to remind us of the urgency of the need for quality
>spiritually-based education. Without exception, the people I talked to,
>privately and in group consultation, talked of the loss of direction among
>young people, of the difficulty interesting them in the Faith, of the great
>potential for teaching that they possess and in some cases show forth. We
>are I believe at a dramatic turning point in our collective educational
>evolution. Baha'i communities everywhere are in dire need of moral
>education, but they will need courage, perseverance and imagination to pull
>it off.
>
>Some kind of proceedings of the conference will be published. Anyone
>interested, please keep in touch with me. Another educators conference was
>talked about for next year or the year after, probably in Samoa. We need to
>hear from the indigenous and island peoples of this region of the spiritual
>axis, and from those without the means to travel great distances. More
>importantly, we need to hear from the youth. Only one youth was present at
>the educators conference, my daughter, Angela. But she spoke eloquently to
>the entire assemblage of the need to consult with the youth and not about
>them. They need training, but they also need a voice and to know they are
>being heard. The adversarial relationship that so often exists between
>teenagers and adults must be replaced with a relationship of trust and
>affection.
>
>The international conference, attended by more that 1500 Baha'is from
>around the world, but in concentration from the Asian/Pacific region, was
>great, though I might add there were too many speeches on abstract
>subjects. Those of you privileged to have attended the recent ABS/Japan
>conference in Yamaguchi, experienced the way a conference should be put
>together. The international conference had a great deal of singing and
>dancing, usually representing some island culture, but these were mostly at
>night. During the day, it was a series of speakers who often went over
>their allotted time. They were all good, but more workshops, small
>discussion groups with special interests, and more emphasis on producing
>personal results were needed. Of special note, though, was the talk made by
>Motoko Caldwell on the Spiritual Axis. She was concise yet comprehensive,
>learned but down to earth. And she kept to her given time. The teaching
>work was tremendous. People would come right up to us in the street and
>ask, "What is this Baha'i?" I heard that people were declaring right and
>left.
>
>But the most dramatic event of the whole conference came at the end, when
>three counselors who had attended the recent convocation of counselors in
>Haifa got up in turn to tell us something of that meeting. The importance
>of that meeting was stated by one counselor, who said the House of Justice
>called it "the consultation of the century." The December 31, 1995 message
>which many of us have read, was also read to the counselors as it was being
>sent out around the world.
>
>Friends, I can only say that the Four-Year Plan seems to have been designed
>to pivot humankind onto a new foundation, and every other foundation will
>be swept away. The next four years are to be the most dramatic in human
>history, the most thrilling for Baha'i work of any kind, potentially the
>most distressing for any other kind of work. A dramatic reading of a Tablet
>revealed by "Abdu'l-Baha shortly after the passing of Baha'u'llah was made.
>This tablet talked of, and I'm giving only my imperfect recollection here,
>Baha'u'llah's promise to 'Abdu'l-Baha to raise up special souls, empowered
>to reshape humankind. The implication is that we are, potentially, these
>souls should we rise to the challenges of the hour. Should we not arise, we
>sink ignominiously into oblivion. It seems to be up to us.
>
>I have never before felt such a keen thrill of excitement, mixed with a
>feeling of real terror. We stand on the very brink of the new age, so close
>as to almost touch it. What the world will look like after the Four-Year
>Plan is complete no one can tell, except that it will not look like it does
>now. We must arise to play our part with will and energy, and to keep a
>focus upon the teaching and consolidation work. Our time has arrived to
>make significant advances in nearly every avenue of human development.
>
>Friends, this is only a poor reproduction of the significance of the weeks
>events. I wish I could report better. But the region of the spiritual axis
>will play a most important role in the advance of the Faith in the coming
>years and on into the next century. We Baha'is of Japan are going to be
>called upon to be in the vanguard of much of this work. I hope we are
>ready.
>
>
>Best wishes to you all in our collective task,
>
>Bill Barnes
>
>
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 03:07:53 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Views of the House & the American idea of Legal Positivism
Juan, juan, juan . . .
How can a man who claims to be a neo-platonist find anything of merit in
legal positivism?
It was legal pos. that gave us such wonder Supreme Court decisions as Lockner
v New York and Plessy v Ferguson just to mention a few. It was legal
positivistic concepts launched by William of Ockham that essentially killed
the Platonic notion of natural law in Europe. (Please don't anyone in the
front row raise their cute lil' naive hand and ask "But isn't the
Constitution based on natural law and natural rights?")
Juan it is not that there is a desperate need for open discussion. It is not
that there is an even more desperate need for accelerated (and long overdue)
maturity of the community and _thus_ the institutions. It is _how_ we go
about doing this that can either lead to success or serious problems.
And I think that your attempts to introduce such ways is extremely exciting.
And terribly noble. But we need to step way back from the current models that
we see about us and take a good long look.
There are elements of American legal theory that are wonderful, and in most
ways far superior to any other. But there are serious flaws. And it is far to
easy to adopt the weaknesses along with the strong points.
We need to examine the whole concept of natural law - starting with both its
secular father Plato, and with the utterences of the Prophets. We need to see
the lightyear jump in the concept of Justice taken in the Faith. And we need
to realize that the Reality that we are helping to build must not willfully
contain the errors in logic and reason that have been the source of such
misery in the past.
We need to redifine human rights - natural rights. We can only do this when
we first re-examine natural law. Natural law comes first and foremost. And
that is one of the great errors of Western civilization Juan. That was one of
the things Plato was arguing about way back when - he could see it coming,
even then. It was the putting of natural rights over natural law. As Plato so
clearly said (Laws X 889e - 890a) men are constantly arguing over natural
*rights* and can never agree.
Juan it has nothing to do with the good you are trying to accomplish. It has
everything to do though with the way. I am committed to justice - I must be
in order to be a Baha'i. But I know that the old ways are terribly deficient.
And we have to be very careful when picking through them to not grab a
handful of diseased garbage along with that which can be salvaged.
And we cannot be swayed in the least by the eddies and currents of a
civilization caught in the onrushing flood of destruction. There is a great
deal of pain and crying out. But it is a mistake to answer to every cry. No
one Juan ever thinks they are deserving of the fate they receive. Especially
now, in this country everyone is a victim. It is always someone else's fault.
A 15 year old boy the other day got angry over a video game he was playing at
a friend's house. So he shot his friend, his mother, his friend's 9 year old
sister. Then he shot himself. The father came home three hours later to this.
And a few days later the only thing he and his supporters could say, and the
thing the media kept focusing on was that it wasn't the kid's fault. He
wasn't to blame. It was someone else don't you see . . .
We need to look at all these scenes with the eye of Justice. We think,
because we live in a land with a wonderful Constitution that we know what
Justice is. But we are fooling ourselves. We need to cleanse our hearts and
our minds and begin looking afresh.
So no, I am not a supporter of legal positivism. And the constitutional and
democratic concepts that are supported in the Writings have little to do with
the current structures and social conduits we have in place today. And let us
remember that these constitutional and democratic concepts are essentially
procedural in nature. They are not the driving principals that guide this
Cause.
And the problems that the Adminstrative Order suffers from esp. here in this
country has very little to do with legal procedure. The *problems* that you
essentially see as substantive due process are actually what Plato would
simply call spiritual ignorance on the part of those sitting in the local or
national spiritual assemblies. No amount of legalistic changes will cure
that. And the proof is that they haven't cured the inherent injustice within
our current political system. They can't. And Plato tells us why again, if
one will read Statesman 294b.
There is a way to these reforms Juan. But it isn't the way we've been going
on Talisman. And I would further say that the quickest way for many of these
injustices and wounds to be healed is to leave them behind for the time being
- to not be blinded by all the crying, hurt and angry voices and move in a
new direction. It is in that direction that Terry, I and others believe will
actually lead to bringing on a quicker resolve, a faster healing than by
running down the false trails that confront us now.
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 96 00:26 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Juan's Head
Dear Friends of the American Farmer:
Juan Ricardo Cole's head is not pointy. I have seen Prof. Cole close up and
his noggin is the shape preferred by cranial measuring sociobiologists (it
has sort of a bell-curve appearance). Spiro Agnew, the man who was once
"one impeachment away from the Presidency" pleaded "no-contest" to criminal
charges and won second place in the Bebe Rebozo Golf Classic.
Now, can one of you bright toilers in the fields of the Lord tell me where
the expression "Ivory Tower" comes from? You know, the place where all the
pointy headed liberals live?
Thanks..
Burl
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer is available on-line from Bookstacks, Ltd. or
Bosch Baha'i Bookshop Hot Link to Boostacks from http://www.saint.org *
http://www.bosch.org/bosch
*******************************************************
=END=
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Adrian Kielhorn
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 11:21:47 CET (UTC-01:00
Subject: New member
Allah'u'Abha, dear friends
Please be so nice as to allow me to join the talisman discussion group
Thank you
Adrian Kielhorn
Germany
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 02:24:12 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Homosexuality & entry by troops
Dear Talismans,
Hanna wrote:
>> I suggest that it (the issue of homosexual Baha'is) is a greater test for
the Baha'i community than it is for the individual soul who may be gay.
This thread is obviously very painful to some members of this list and I
offer them my heartfelt thanks for their bravery and determination in helping
the rest of us become more fully aware of the diverse ways people go
through this physical life.
Hanna has raised a very important point. When Entry by Troops is achieved, we
will encounter so much variability and diversity that, unless we are prepared
to be loving and welcoming to all, these things will sweep our fragile little
communities away.
Respectfully,
Sandy
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 96 15:50:57+030
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: Re: Juan's Head
Dear Burl:
I do not have a historical point of origin for the term "ivory tower", but
it does make me think of fairy tales and Rapunsel. Perhaps she had
something to hide under all that hair! Another tower is the tower of
Sleeping Beauty...perhaps the pointy headed liberals are waiting for their
prince to come and awaken them with a kiss...unfortunatly, it takes 100
years, and he is stuck in another fairy still trying to get out of his frog
skin by coersing yet another princess to kiss him. Do you think there is
anything to these images in terms of archetypes? It does open the door to
some interesting interpretations, eh?
Laughing,
Bev.
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 09:20:08 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Ivory Towers
I checked the Oxford English Dictionary. "Ivory tower" is apparently a
translation of a 19th century French catch phrase--tour d'ivoire--and
became popular in English just before World War One. The origin of the
French phrase does not seem to be known, or at least is not explained.)
In English it always seems to have refered to cloistered academia. I
suspect that when it was first used in Britain, people thought it refered
to the famous gothic spires of Oxford, of which there are many made of
white stone. (Having not been to Oxford myself, I do not know whether
there should be a comma after "many." I apologize to the distinguished
members who [or "members, who"] may have been offended.)
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 08:27:59 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Juan's Head
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Talisman"
I propose a Phrenological approach to Juan's head. If one interprets
"pointy" as "protrubrences of the skull" then I believe this provides a
rich avenue of research into this often misunderstood subject.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: the term "non-Baha`i"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 08:27:01 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Robert Stockan wrote to talisman@indiana.edu:
R >Personally, I don't know why people object to the term non-Baha'i.
R >It's neutral; it doesn't mean anti-Baha'i, nor is it condescending like
R >"pre-Baha'i." I have no problem considering myself a non-Christian or
R >a non-Jew. After all, I'm not.
Rob,
I think the problem stems from the fact that the term "Baha'i" is
used in at least two (certainly related) ways:
1. pertaining to someone who is a member of the Baha'i Faith
2. indicating an individual who is a universal lover of humanity
Therefore, when using the term "non-Baha'i," I suppose it would
depend on which meaning one had in mind.
Personally, I have never liked referring to others as "non-Baha'is"
either. IMO, it could make us appear to be somewhat exclusive or even
sectarian - not too swift for a religion which espouses world unity. I
prefer speaking of persons who are not members of the Faith or about
those who are not enrolled as Baha'is.
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Past President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Director, Institute for Reality Studies [sm] Owner, Baha'i Studies List *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Office: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 Home: 913/768-4244 Fax: 913/469-4409 *
*Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) UWG94A (Prodigy) *
*mfoster@tyrell.net mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us (Baha'i List Co-Moderator) *
*72642,3105 (Staff, 3 CompuServe Religion Fora, incl. Baha'i Section Leader) *
*Realityman (America Online Ethics & Religion Forum Chief Baha'i Chat Host) *
*Home Pages: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality *
* http://home.aol.com/Realityman (Note: The Web is Case-Sensitive)*
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 10:18:07 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: lua@sover.net (LuAnne Hightower)
Subject: Ivory Tower
Dear Prof. Walbridge,
No comma necessary. By the way, is the reason why people in the ME donned
fez, turbans, and sikkes so that no one could tell who did and did not have
a pointed head? And don't you think it was sexist to grant women mere hijab
and chador that would never adequately conceal such a feature? Or did their
ignorance blind them to the "point" of so gross and oversight? Just
wondering...
Regards,
LuAnne
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 08:01:06 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: RE. Ivory towers.
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismanians
Our esteemrd John Walbridge speaking from the frozen realms of the
walbridge estates in the tundra of Indiana spoke of the 'other place'
in respect of Ivory towers . I can only offer the view put by Churchill
regarding that establishment :Can't row won't fight! Let me assure you
John the towers at Cambridge are much nicer and the brains function
better. So Ivory towers would suit the other place far better.
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 09:55:54 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Story of the Gadfly
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Talisman"
Many Talismanists identify themselves as Platonists. I, for one, follow
Socrates (Socration) the founder of that religion. Socrates said he had
a "Daimon"--spirit-guide--moral center--conscience. However one wants to
define it, he said Daimon so I prefer that usage. Socrates may have been
reifying but he said this guide gaurded him in his behavior. Socrates
considered himself IMHO a provacateur or "Gadfly" as he expressed it.
This was in the most positive sense of the word. He went about his land
setting a standard of behavior and questioning the materialism of his
time. His approach became the standard of Philosophic discourse. That
is, open mindedness, questioning, essential courtesy to the other person,
and trying to make the inquiry a vehicle for some higher understanding he
had come to see.
Socrates was later brought to trial and accused of "Corrupting the morals
of the youth", "Teaching that the gods were not real" and "making the
better appear the worse". This of course is laughable. Socrates was
convicted of these charges and sentenced to death. He could have escaped
or sought some remedy that would have spared his life. He refused this
and turned back every entreaty to the contrary. Well, I imagine my sweet
Friends remember the rest of this tale.
Socrates clarified the purpose of philosophy as right behavior, as did
the Buddha, and others. It seems that Socrates, all to often, gets lost
in the discussion of his philosophy.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 17:27:35 +0100 (MET)
Subject: intellectuals, learned & divines
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Gordon, Quanta
I intended farmers and 'the learned and divines' (and various
other groups I mentioned) as parallel examples - no contrast or
opposition was intended or implied. My point was that BOTH
groups are especially privileged in the Bahai writings - along
with dozens of other groups, ALL of which are irreplaceable. I
chose to mention 'farmers' only because the quote which Quanta
kindly cited, giving them a special position, seemed remarkably
like the one I had quoted about the position of the learned and
divines. The point was similarity, not contrast: if you read this
thinking of contrasts and oppositions my posting would have
been nonsense.
"Intellectuals" was the term used in the post to which I was
responding, 'the learned and divines' is the term used in the
Baha'i writings. Clearly the latter term does not exclude farmers
(Thoreau, Ghandi), and whether 'intellectuals' excludes farmers
depends on whether you are considering people under the heading
of what they are or what they do for a living.
Sen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-216854
Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
and the individuality of each,
thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 11:21:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: natural law
Jim:
How would you tell if something was natural law? Would it have to show
up in most human legal systems? (If so, is patriarchy "natural law?")
As a historian I don't find much evidence for universal human norms.
The line that to the extent that there is something wrong with the
functioning of contemporary Baha'i institutions, it has to do with the
spiritual immaturity of their members and cannot be addressed
procedurally, does not impress me. Nor do I think it is true.
Rather, I think lack of due process protections and lack of checks and
balances--*procedural* matters--encourage an authoritarian and even
ultimately bullying attitude in some Baha'i officials. Moreover, even if
the problem was one of spiritual immaturity, there is nothing that one
can do about that. But one could protect the community from it at least
to some extent by instituting a rule of law. A rule of law is not
perfect and not guaranteed to end all abuses, but it is a damn sight
better than sheer arbitrariness, which is what we have now. Ironically,
*The Tablet of the World* and *Secret of Divine Civilization* were
written to insist on a rule of law in Qajar Iran. But Baha'is have
forgotten all about that with regard to their own community.
I disagree with you that the Holy Figures wanted to take only procedural
and not substantive principles from democratic and human-rights
traditions; I don't see how you can read the above-cited two works and
come to that conclusion. Remember that they are arguing against an
Absolutist regime.
As for our own proceedings, I am trying to convey to you that simply
chiding Talismanians will get you nowhere. You've been doing it a long
time now without obvious effect. Unless you simply enjoy chiding, then
give it up, Jim. What you could do is engage in a different kind of
discourse yourself, offering a role and starting your own threads. Why
don't you give us a deepening on, say, *Advent of Divine Justice*,
Harrison-style. We'd be grateful to you for it, and it would make a
positive contribution (of which I am confident you are eminently capable).
cheers Juan
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 96 08:28 PST
To: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Ivory Towers & French
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Bev, seeing linkage between frogs and ivory towers, asked:
Do you think there is
>anything to these images in terms of archetypes? It does open the door to
>some interesting interpretations, eh?
Burl, ever thoughtful, replies:
Hmmm. Prof Walbridg's (Walbridge is, itself, a reference to pointy heads --
the bridge of the nose leads to the wall of the forhead, a subtle "point to
head" reference) noted that the origin of the expression "Ivory Tower" is
French -- and a slur on the French is "frog" You are obviously on to
something. Other slurs on the French include "sauce soaked anti-semite,"
"pastry packed nit-picker," and "nasal accented superior person" but I don't
know how those relate to the topic at hand. But it is a fact that the French
are so seperatists that they have a seperate word for everything, and even
have their own dictionary full of words you don't find in English! Even
their word for "English" is not spelled "English"! And they don't even
spell "French" FRENCH! Is that silly or what? No wonder their NSA got
confused at the time of Mason Remey.
When I first heard the expression IVORY TOWER I thought of Marilynn
Chambers, the "Ivory Soap Girl" who slid to fame in the motion picture
classic "Behind the Green Door," based on the famous folk tale of the same
name. It is important, in this day of vanishing folk cultures and the
homoginization of humanity to preserve these ancient allegorical stories.
The filmed version, however, seemed devoid of the more abstract metaphores
and seemed to focus more on acrobatic versatility. I fear that future
cultural historians may not understand the sociobiological implications of
the story if all that remains is a 16mm film of a former soap box model
having intimate relations with numerous faceless strangers. I hate to admit
it, but the French --abstract secularist inebriants they are -- could have
done a better job.
>
Burl (I prefer a Brick House) Barer
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer is available on-line from Bookstacks, Ltd. or
Bosch Baha'i Bookshop Hot Link to Boostacks from http://www.saint.org *
http://www.bosch.org/bosch
*******************************************************
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 07:30:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: farmers and intellectuals?
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Juan Cole" ,
"Gordon McFarlane"
Cc: "Talisman"
Juan write:
>The Baha'i faith was formulated as a religion that could tolerate, and
>could even attract the allegiance of intellectuals (among others). But
>it gradually has sunk back into the bad habits of the previous religions,
>and many powerful Baha'is actively dislike intellectuals for the same
>reason that most Cardinals and Ayatollahs do. This I view as a betrayal
>of the promise and essence of the Baha'i Faith. Much energy is
>apparently put into ensuring that no Baha'is practice the culture of
>critical discourse, and into ensuring that they are all good little
>foot-soldiers who salute and obey orders implicitly. Which is why there
>is only one academic book, published by an academic press, by a Baha'i
>academic (Peter Smith) on the Baha'i Faith; most intellectuals have
>either left or figured out they should put their important energies into
>something else.
My admired friend, Juan, makes some very good points, but I believe he
is describing a "distrust" that characterizes an "old world order mind
set". I hope I'm not just some tin soldier in saying so. It is true
that Baha'u'llah formulated the Baha'i Faith as an arena that eschews
prejudice, narrow-mindedness, and superstition. Otherwise, how could the
"True Seeker" find his Beloved.
I would like to briefly describe my view as a Baha'i: Critical thinking
is not confined to the paradigns of the past. Critical thinking can be
done in conjunction with spiritual perception. Old world notions do not
take into account the entire cognative process and in fact denigrate and
ridicule the very idea of the "Whole Person". There is a third force at
work that retains the best of the old order while recognizing a new
potential.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 12:07:25 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: lua@sover.net (LuAnne Hightower)
Subject: Fi, fay, fo, fum
I mean Fi.
Sorry,
LuAnne
=END=
From: alma@indirect.com
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 09:19:23 -0700
To: SFotos@eworld.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Homosexuality & entry by troops
Dear Sandy and other Talisfolk,
I am going to discuss how, in part, homosexuality is being treated on
soc.religion.bahai at the moment. Some of you may kind such comments
disturbing and I would suggest that those hit the delete key and not read
what I have to say.
Sadly I must agree with your assessment. About a week ago a proposed FAQ on
homosexuality was posted in srb. As was pointed out to me when I questioned
the wisdom of this, the faq consists of excerpts from the Writings and
letters of the UHJ and nothing else. It is implied that because of this,
the faq can serve as 'the Baha'i opinion.'
Now I have seen enough compilations of quotations to realize that such
compilations may be helpful but also have their limitations. For one thing,
what is included in the compilation is more often than not selected to
further the point of view of the selector. Besides that it assumes that one
can read such excerpts completely out of context. Someone who is familiar
with the Baha'i Faith can weigh the value and meanings of the quotation.
But a faq is directed at those not familiar with the Faith and I think it
promises an answer that it cannot give.
This faq is generating a fair amount of replies (perhaps even more than we
know about because the moderators do reject some posts from Baha'is if they
are immoderate in tone.)
All but two of the replies to the faq approve it. One of the dissident ones
is mine and the other mildly questions. One of the replies to my response
to the faq generated a reply which after the usual disclaimer contained in a
quote from Shoghi Effendi about loving the sinner but not the sin, went on
to state:
> As I personally understand it, Baha'u'llah accounts
>homosexuality as a form of incest. I.e. we should only become
>sexually involved with women outside of the family. That is to say
>we should marry in the proper way, not in the easy way. Note that
>the passage here is referring to MARRIAGE to "boys", as far as I can
>tell. The theme interweaving marriage to one's "fathers' wives" and
>to "boys" is that we should wed that individual to which a proper
>marriage can be created, not those individuals with which we are most
>familiar. Most people are more familiar with people of their own sex
>than people of the opposite sex, thus making a heterosexual
>relationship DIFFICULT and a homosexual relationship EASY.
> Incidentally, I believe that the term "we shrink for very
>fear" suggests that homosexuality is the among the worst forms of
>INCEST and NOT neccesarily the worst form of ADULTERY, an important
>distinction. Baha'u'llah is referring to marital homosexuality
>here.
This upset me. Not only that I cannot follow his logic. But that the
person who is an active homosexual is now involved in incest! While some of
us think that at the worst homosexuality is a minor sin, noone I know
condones incest. So I wrote a reply to srb and cc'd the sender. SRB has
yet to post either my query or his reply which I received in email which
contained the following: (since this email is also sent to srb, I don't
consider it private)
> Besides, if you think homosexuality is acceptable, I fail to
>see the problem with incest, especially if one undertakes proper
>contraceptive measures.
>
The email also showed a lack of understanding of some things that is far too
common in the Baha'i community. In fairness, it IS difficult to understand
the connections between things in that most in the USA have little access to
materials that would help them understand and many of these have even less
inclination to study what is available. But his comments included the
following points.
That in a paragraph the lead sentence is important and other sentences in
the paragraph should be read in reference to that one. Unless I am
mistaken, paragraphs do not exisgt in the Arabic original. (Not sure that
punctuated sentences do either.)
The Oxford dictionary definition of paedestery (in part). He then goes on
to discuss his understanding of paedesterhy in classic Greek civilization
when it may have under certain conditions been voluntary on the boy's part.
For me, this has little or no relevance to the Aqdas which is concerned with
Persian practices. (An aside. Has anyone ever considered the fact that
Baha'u'llah places his only comment on sexual misdeeds [I assume that the
sections are in the order he desired.] between two that relate mostly to
Persian culture and don't directly apply to us today?)
We in the West too often fail to relate Baha'u'llah and the Bab to their
Islamic roots and Islamic culture. And in doing so take, I think, some
surprising positions and when this is done publicly, it probably repels more
people than it attracts.
In peace and with Baha'i love,
Alma
>
At 02:24 AM 1/22/96 -0800, SFotos@eworld.com wrote:
>
>Dear Talismans,
>
>Hanna wrote:
>>> I suggest that it (the issue of homosexual Baha'is) is a greater test for
>the Baha'i community than it is for the individual soul who may be gay.
>
>This thread is obviously very painful to some members of this list and I
>offer them my heartfelt thanks for their bravery and determination in helping
>the rest of us become more fully aware of the diverse ways people go
>through this physical life.
>
>Hanna has raised a very important point. When Entry by Troops is achieved, we
>will encounter so much variability and diversity that, unless we are prepared
>to be loving and welcoming to all, these things will sweep our fragile little
>communities away.
>
>Respectfully,
>Sandy
>
>
>
>
To tread the path of Love Alma Engels
Is no mere game. alma@indirect.com
For only one
Out of many thousands
Can persevere in His Love. (Tahirih)
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 12:05:16 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: lua@sover.net (LuAnne Hightower)
Subject: Surah Hashr
Allah-u-Abha, friends.
HELP! My Alim transliteration device is not cooperating. Can anyone tell
me whether in ayat 24 of Surah Hashr the correct wording is:
la hul asma 'ul husna yusabahu lahuma WA samawati wal ard
OR
FIS samawati wal ard??
I've been doing FIS and have been told it's WA.
Whoever responds first with the correct answer gets a complimentary cup of
something at the Bosch cafe during the Mysticism Conference (compliments of
me, and you must be in attendance - no rain checks).
Gratefully yours,
LuAnne
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 96 08:31:18 PST
Subject: Re: Views of the House & the American idea of Legal Positivism
To: talisman@indiana.edu
On Mon, 22 Jan 1996 03:07:53 -0500 Alethinos@aol.com wrote:
>secular father Plato, and with the utterences of the Prophets. We
need to see
>the lightyear jump in the concept of Justice taken in the Faith. And
we need
>to realize that the Reality that we are helping to build must not
willfully
>contain the errors in logic and reason that have been the source of
such
>misery in the past.
snip
>
>We need to redifine human rights - natural rights.
snip
I know that the old ways are terribly deficient.
>And we have to be very careful when picking through them to not grab
a
>handful of diseased garbage along with that which can be salvaged.
it is a mistake to answer to every cry.
>We need to look at all these scenes with the eye of Justice. We
think,
>because we live in a land with a wonderful Constitution that we know
what
>Justice is. But we are fooling ourselves. We need to cleanse our
hearts and
>our minds and begin looking afresh.
>
these constitutional and democratic concepts are essentially
>procedural in nature. They are not the driving principals that guide
t
>
>There is a way to these reforms Juan. But it isn't the way we've
been going
>on Talisman. And I would further say that the quickest way for many
of these
>injustices and wounds to be healed is to leave them behind for the
time being
>- to not be blinded by all the crying, hurt and angry voices and
move in a
>new direction.
It is in that direction that Terry, I and others believe will
>actually lead to bringing on a quicker resolve, a faster healing
than by
>running down the false trails that confront us now.
>
>jim harrison
>
>Alethinos@aol.com
Talisman friends, Jim,
I can't respond to this point by point today and I feel the need to
say something. this posting is thoroughly upsetting to me and I will
need to time to figure out why.
My impressionistic response is that Jim sees himself at the head of a
spiritualistic juggernaught of reform and that the goals are too
glorious to allow for such impediments as compassion, critical
thought, personal reservations based on misgivings.
It think this is a very dangerous spirit and if I thought it
characterized the whole of Bahai, I would distance myself from the
religion as quickly as I could. And I most certainly would not ever
want someone with this view point to hold any political power,
especially power that effect the lives of every day people.
I read this as a kind of High Intolerance in the name of utopean
beliefs. Very upsetting to me.
And there is also a raging quality to the presentation and an angry
impatience with those of us, like me, who don't follow what he is
saying. I could not trust this kind of leadership. I don't think
anyone should. The key terms, like "legal positivism," have still
not been carefully presented and defined.
And this business about the "light years ahead leap in Justice" is
very illusive for me. I've been struggling for a while to define for
myself exactly what is new about the Bahai Dispensation, other than
the claim that Baha'u'llah is a new manifestation. What I get most
of the time is the repeated claim that it's new, it's new, it's new.
join now, it's new.
I think there are new things in it, but some of them are subtle.
In the teaching of moral development, children can understand moral
reasoning which is only slightly higher than their own. And they will
be attracked to this superior level of reasoning. They cannot
understand it if it is too much higher than their own. But they will
not be repelled.
I would expect that the Bahai system of moral reasoning would be
sweetly compelling. At times I can sense this. But not in this
letter.
If Jim has a vision of a higher level of justice and a higher level
of moral reasoning, it do not hear it in any of his presentations. I
hear only impatience and stidency. And, I think, in some ways, I'm
starting to feel attacked by it. I don't know whether he means this
to be the effect of his presentation.
Enough.
Sorry Jim to have to speak so harshly to what is obviously a deeply
felt message. But the message I am receiving seems very different
from the one you think you are sending. Maybe
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/22/96
Time: 08:31:18
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 08:38:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Stephen Johnson
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: Stephen Johnson
Subject: KI pp.28 - 31
This servant will now share with thee a dewdrop
out of the fathomless ocean of the truths treasured
in these holy words, that haply discerning hearts
may comprehend all the allusions and the implications
of the utterances of the Manifestations of
Holiness, so that the overpowering majesty of the
Word of God may not prevent them from attaining
unto the ocean of His names and attributes, nor
deprive them of recognizing the Lamp of God
which is the seat of the revelation of His glorified
Essence.
As to the words--"Immediately after the oppression
of those days"--they refer to the time when
men shall become oppressed and afflicted, the time
when the lingering traces of the Sun of Truth and
the fruit of the Tree of knowledge and wisdom
will have vanished from the midst of men, when
the reins of mankind will have fallen into the grasp
of the foolish and ignorant, when the portals of
divine unity and understanding--the essential and
highest purpose in creation--will have been closed,
when certain knowledge will have given way to
idle fancy, and corruption will have usurped the
station of righteousness. Such a condition as this
is witnessed in this day when the reins of every
community have fallen into the grasp of foolish
leaders, who lead after their own whims and desire.
On their tongue the mention of God hath become
an empty name; in their midst His holy
Word a dead letter. Such is the sway of their desires,
that the lamp of conscience and reason hath
been quenched in their hearts, and this although the
fingers of divine power have unlocked the portals
of the knowledge of God, and the light of divine
knowledge and heavenly grace hath illumined and
inspired the essence of all created things, in such
wise that in each and every thing a door of knowledge
hath been opened, and within every atom
traces of the sun hath been made manifest. And yet,
in spite of all these manifold revelations of divine
knowledge, which have encompassed the world,
they still vainly imagine the door of knowledge to
be closed, and the showers of mercy to be stilled.
Clinging unto idle fancy, they have strayed far
from the &Urvatu'l-Vuthqa of divine knowledge.
Their hearts seem not to be inclined to knowledge
and the door thereof, neither think they of its
manifestations, inasmuch as in idle fancy they have
found the door that leadeth unto earthly riches,
whereas in the manifestation of the Revealer of
knowledge they find naught but the call to self-sacrifice.
They therefore naturally hold fast unto
the former, and flee from the latter. Though they
recognize in their hearts the Law of God to be one
and the same, yet from every direction they issue
a new command, and in every season proclaim a
fresh decree. No two are found to agree on one and
the same law, for they seek no God but their own
desire, and tread no path but the path of error. In
leadership they have recognized the ultimate object
of their endeavour, and account pride and
haughtiness as the highest attainments of their
heart's desire. They have placed their sordid machinations
above the divine decree, have renounced
resignation unto the will of God, busied themselves
with selfish calculation, and walked in the way of
the hypocrite. With all their power and strength
they strive to secure themselves in their petty pursuits,
fearful lest the least discredit undermine
their authority or blemish the display of their
magnificence. Were the eye to be anointed and illumined
with the collyrium of the knowledge of
God, it would surely discover that a number of
voracious beasts have gathered and preyed upon
the carrion of the souls of men.
=END=
From: SBirkland@aol.com
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 12:30:43 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: From Birkland 1/22
I have become aware of the presence on Talisman of one of the National
Directors of a group of Covenant-breakers. Apparently he has not posted
anything; however, he has told someone known to me that he is archiving all
the Talisman messages. I am providing the list owner with his name.
Although he has never been a member of our Baha i community and therefore
has not been declared a Covenant-breaker, he is part of a body bent on
undermining the unity of the Baha i Faith. This creates a serious concern
for Baha i participants on the list in the light of the explicit Baha i
Teachings on the Covenant.
Stephen Birkland
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 96 13:02:20 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: homosexuality/army
To: talisman@indiana.edu
All this discussion on homosexuality still does not address the issue of just
what homosexuals are supposed "to do." Simply work at becoming heterosexuals?
Isn't there enough evidence out there to show that this does not work? Does it
trouble anyone else that so many of our gifted artists, musicians, writers,
etc. are homosexuals? It certainly is no coincidence that this is the case.
By being "anti-homosexual" (and that dreadful posting forwarded from another
list service shows how powerful a sentiment this is in the Baha'i community) we
are really saying that we don't want this class of people in the Faith. Thank
you very much but I don't want to deprive myself of the talent of such people.
I appreciated Derek's comments on war and economics. Indeed, there was much to
chew on here. I would, though, disagree with him about concern over children
of Baha'is entering the armed services. While I have no desire to see my sons
go to war, I do see the armed services as having a larger role than this in the
world today. In the U.S. they are just as likely to serve in peace keeping
missions or assistance with disasters. I see no objection to this. I would
just as soon see well raised kids be in this role.
Must run. Please, Jim, give me some examples of what "human rights" you think
are disposable? Linda
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: jwalbrid@indiana.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Ivory Towers
> In English it always seems to have refered to cloistered academia.
Interesting. It is not listed in Brewer's, so I checked Webster's New
International 2nd, and it lists only 'a secluded place for meditation'. So
now I'm going to post to alt.quotations and see what I get.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 13:19:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Stephen Johnson
To: bahai-campus-forum@bcca.org
Cc: bahai-discuss@bcca.org, bahai-announce@bcca.org, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Ayyam-i-Ha Around the World
Allah'u'Abha Dearest Friends.
The Local Spiritual Assembly of the Town of Brookhaven in New York State
is planning on organizing a presentation this Ayyam-i-Ha of what Baha'is
around the world do for Ayyam-i-Ha. Therefore, I have been asked to
contact as many Baha'is around the world as possible to ask for their
input. Could any and all Baha'is who receive this message (especially in
different parts of the world) tell me what has been done for this sublime
Holy Day?
Please respond directly to my address as I am not subscribed to all
Baha'i lists.
Thank you in advance and my apologies to those who will receive multiple
copies of this letter.
Your loving friend,
stephen johnson
snoopy@skipper.physics.sunysb.edu
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 13:07:46 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: homosexuality/army
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: , "Talisman"
>All this discussion on homosexuality still does not address the issue of just
>what homosexuals are supposed "to do."
Dearest Linda,
Your heart is tender and any "thinking" and "feeling" person can
understand what you are saying. Please in all humility I beseech you and
ask this; "Should believers be asked to sacrifice their integrity over
this issue?" You ask too much. I'm willing to give everything a fair
hearing and approach this with an open mind. What more would you have us
do?
Please answer with your thoughts.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 96 11:59 PST
To: SFotos@eworld.com
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Homosexuality & entry by troops
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Sandy raised an important issue regarding entry by troops, one which I
never tire of raising myself. While we are going to get whomever you see as
"Mr and Ms Right" we are also going to get whomever you see as "Ms and Mr
Wrong" -- you may want every prominent and influential mover and shaker to
enroll, and what you get is every hooker in Helena, Montana and 1/4 of the
city council.
Makes for interesting feasts and some pretty clever fund raising suggestions
during consultation, but the point is we must have open arms and honest
expectations -- this is a transformative faith, and we are all being
transformed from one "form" to another. Ye shall be changed is the promise
of religion and one of its proofs -- and recognizing the Messenger of God is
not an intellectual attainment but a spiritual response to a Divine Summons.
Whomsoever God calls, we cannot send away -- think of Mulla Husain
protecting the Bab in the market place from the "believer" who was summoned
in his dreams..
the Bab knew he was coming, but Mulla Husain tried to keep him away. You may
want pointy headed college profs and you get radical ninjas instead, or
vice-versa, or both.
Burl
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Bookstacks, Ltd.
*******************************************************
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 15:38:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: SBirkland@aol.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: From Birkland 1/22
Steve: This sort of thing was bound to happen. The Baha'i Faith over=20
the years has attracted a certain number of wackos, flakes, and wierdos,=20
some of whom have schismatic tendencies.
My problem is that Baha'is seem to want to allow this fact to hold=20
hostage our ordinary, daily Baha'i activities. We have to constantly be=20
under siege and looking over our shoulders for Remeyites and Mullas.
Now, let us imagine what would happen if a covenant-breaker posted on=20
Talisman? Surely the Baha'i scholars here, many with knowledge of the=20
Arabic and Persian texts of the central Covenantal documents, can defeat=20
in debate anyone so foolish as to confront us with silly schismatic ideas?
As for the "archiving" of messages, well and good. These are public and=20
are being archived by many persons. The messages bespeak the public=20
devotion to the Faith of a large number of Baha'i intellectuals. What=20
harm can come of that?
The way to deal with these flakes is not to cower in intellectual and=20
spiritual bunkers but to take them on in public, reasoned and scriptural=20
debate.=20
The same phenomenon, incidentally, could easily exist on soc.rel.bahai,=20
which is put out over trumpet and which can be archived. Many of the=20
uninformed and sometimes narrow-minded postings that appear there would=20
do far more damage to the Faith if widely publicized than Talisman postings=
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 21:23:48 +0100 (MET)
Subject: legal positivism etc
To: talisman@indiana.edu
aaaaah hem (tentatively)
I suppose this will show my ignorance, but I wonder if I have
understood Jim correctly on a few points regarding law. I hasten
to say I don't belong to the honoured and imitable company of
lawyers:
`But amongst the lawyers he who guardeth himself, ... it
is incumbent on the people to follow him...' (Travellers
Narrative page 70)
(BTW Brent - what are the rules of 'follow my lawyer'? This
couldn't be blind imitation of course, so I assume that the lawyer
gets to wear the blindfold - which explains the odd statue above
the courthouse door - and the followers get to see where they are
going, right? :-)
Anyway, to the point(s). First 'natural law': I understand this as
the belief that we have direct access to a moral law underlying
the creation, by means of our natural reason, i.e., without the
benefit of revelation or the mediation of a revealer. And as I
understand it the Baha'i teaching is that we have no direct access
to natural law: moral knowledge comes directly or indirectly
mediated through a Manifestation: we can reason about ethics,
but we can't reason our way to ethics. Or not? Also 'natural law'
in the writings and talks of `Abdu'l-Baha refers to physical laws
such as gravity: the only reference I know of to natural moral
law in the writings is in a letter of the Guardian concerning
homosexuality (it is so exceptional in this that, as I've said here
in relation to that thread, I feel positive it must be the secretary's
choice of words, not Shoghi Effendi's).
'Legal positivism': is this the belief that people and societies can
be reformed by good laws? If so I would have thought it was the
very backbone of Baha'i belief:
We school you with the rod of wisdom and laws, like
unto the father who educateth his son, and this for naught
but the protection of your own selves and the elevation of
your stations. (The Kitab-i-Aqdas, page 36)
Because this family lacks the necessary reciprocity and
symmetry. ... This household is not living under a
perfect law. ... Therefore a law must be given to this
family by means of which all the members of this family
will enjoy equal well-being and happiness. (Foundations
of World Unity, pages 38-39)
So it will come to pass that when women participate fully
and equally in the affairs of the world, when they enter
confidently and capably the great arena of laws and
politics, war will cease; for woman will be the obstacle
and hindrance to it. This is true and without doubt.
(Promulgation of Universal Peace, page 135)
and so on ad infinitum ...Promulgation of Universal Peace, page
144, 216, 238, 279-280, 378-379; Some Answered Questions,
page 96, Secret of Divine Civilization, page 60, Selections from
the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha page 283 and on and on and on. I
other words, if the Baha'i project is not legal positivism, what on
earth is it??? Or have I misunderstood the term entirely?
Sen.
=END=
Date: 22 Jan 96 13:51:23 U
From: "Dan Orey"
Subject: Re: homosexuality/army
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Reply to: RE>homosexuality/army
Linda asks:
What's a homosexual to do? We can do quite alot if given the opportuntity....
some of us bake, others knit, I myself can't cook or sew (I may then be a
lesbian, I do not know for certain). Tho I beleive I am a super parent of a 10
year old son, a great math teacher, superlative gardner, a great mountain biker
and skier, and a some what bludgoened, but persistent Baha'i. - Daniel
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 12:58:56 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: Re: Forgiveness and cut-offs
Dear Mr. Belove,
I don't understand this. Would you shed some additional light on this statement.
A.J.
>One is that, in the name of Unity, the Baha'i Faith seems to
>ex-communicate people.
>
>Is ex-communication an acceptable strategy in private life?
>
>
>
>Philip
>
Arsalan J. Sadighi
"Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
that is clearly none of your business!" Battista
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 12:54:58 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: Firesides
Friends,
Considering the fact that my questions are routinely ignored by most, I see
fit to continue with my unwanted beahvior.
My question has to do with how to attract seekers to firesides and what
topics to present. The well has gone dry in my neck of the woods, see? I am
sure there must be some deep thinkers who have considered this question and
would not mind sharing it with this servant.
Arsalan J. Sadighi
P.O. Box 23076
Juneau, AK 99802-3076
(907) 463-4668 Residence
(907) 465-5776 Business
(907) 463-4648 Residential Fax
(907) 465-3450 Business Fax
"Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
that is clearly none of your business!" Battista
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 23:08:30 +0100 (MET)
Subject: learning to love Talisman
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Warning! this posting is entirely ad homina and may damage
your health
- The sturgeon-general
Philip,
It's hardly reasonable to form an opinion of the Faith on the basis
of one individual! Jim is quite unique in the Talisman
community, and all the more precious for that. Among the
denizens of this deep, he is the giant squid - the spurts of grand
rage are actually his method of locomotion. During the quiet
periods he is gradually puffing himself up with gallons of water
or some more fiery fuel, and then there's a might spasm and
whammo! gallons of ink all over the place. He is also attracted to
strange lights: try asking him innocently what he meant by the
reference to axiology, and watch him come to the surface :-)
I, on the other hand, am a slithery eel with large jaws; Juan is
definitely a whale - you can hear him snort when he comes up
for air. Terry is a sailor too long from home (aren't we all) and
slightly touched: he's staring at the waves and thinks he sees
(mer)maids everywhere. Derek is a whole school of shrimp, snap
crackle popping, and I think Burl is a Walrus. Talisman may
grate a little sometimes, but I wouldn't want it without any of its
individualities. Believe me, it will grow on you in time.
BTW, I agree with you the the newness in the Faith is subtle: the
continuities are many. One of the differences is newness itself -
the platonic scheme of ideas, which Popper rightly criticised in
The Open Society (book 1 I think) as inherently conservative, is
turned on its head by adding the notion of the continual creation
of new ideas, so that the ideal world is not static but exploding
outwards and upwards with novelties and new wonders. When
the Romans accused the Christians of innovation in religion, that
was a meant as a really dirty smear. And innovation has been
used as a derogatory label in both Christianity and Islam. If the
ideal world is static and the physical world mirrors the ideal
world, then any change in the physical world is a deterioration.
But if newness itself is an element of the ideal world, it must be
represented in the physical world:
The laws and procedures of every government have been
revised. Renewal is the order of the day. And all this
newness hath its source in the fresh outpourings of
wondrous grace and favour from the Lord of the
Kingdom, which have renewed the world. (Selections
from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha, page 253)
Sen
PS: Philip - my tagline says it all :-)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-216854
Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
and the individuality of each,
thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 16:39:10 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Juan's Head and Anotations
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Talisman"
>I propose a Phrenological approach to Juan's head. If one interprets
>"pointy" as "protrubrences of the skull" then I believe this provides a
>rich avenue of research into this often misunderstood subject.
>Richard
There has arisen the possibility of some misunderstanding regarding this
post quoted above. i know there are those who regard me as Juan's
"persecutor" so i feel it incumbent upon me to explain it. In the first
place it was humor and it was done in the spirit of the thread started by
Burl. In the second, it alluded to Juan's remarks about Spiro Agnew,
perennial nemesis of all intellectuals. So let me break this post down.
Phrenology is a longtime discredited pseudo-science from early in this
century and before. By bringing up Phrenology as an approach to Juan's
thinking a parallel is drawn between the discredited remarks
(pointy-headed liberals) of Spiro Agnew and the lamentable pseudo-science
of Phrenology. The science of Phrenology involved an absurd map
super-imposed on the skull where various emotions and so on were located.
A phrenological practioner felt the bumps on the head and did a reading
of the persons health. Let's say like a palm reader. (No offence to
Palm Readers). Thus "pointiness" has a compliment in bumps or
"protrubrences of the skull".
Then i go on to remark about rich avenues of research and Juan as a often
misunderstood subject. i feel this part is clear.
i promise in the future to include the annotations when i crack a
scholarly joke.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 11:56:49 +1300 (NZDT)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: homosexuality & fire eating
Talismans,
Life is deeply dilemmatic. Each of us is faced with a bewildering array of
questions, some trivial some profound, all perplexing...What to wear, where
to live, how to die, who to marry, what to do, where to go, when to
divorce, what to believe, who to befriend, who to leave behind, what to
study, when to retire, when to get out of bed.. These questions don't go
away. With maturation we come to understand that we had better deal with
them, or at least try to...
I have followed the homosexuality thread for many months and I appreciate
the dilemmatic nature of the issues for many here. Can I be a Baha'i and a
homosexual (Dan), in what way is my situation like Dan's (Hannah), what's
all the fuss about homosexuality (Juan, Linda), are not those who think
that the Faith has a firm view on homosexuality wrong (John), does
homosexuality belong in the same category as left-handedness (Sonja)....
And so on. The general feeling is that there's a lot of homophobia around,
and that this homophobia is a kissing cousin of anti-intellectuality and
unspirituality. However, the discussion is hardly rational. Emotions run
high, and it seems to me that if anyone knew the cause of homosexuality
they would get laughed off the stage rather than listened to.
I must say that -- generally -- I find overt homosexuality extremely
distasteful when I deal with it on a close-up basis. I try not to let this
feeling get out of hand though, and feel OK with the principle that we
should reject the behaviour rather than the person. I don't speak against
homosexuals and prefer to adopt a live-and-let-live attitude. It seems to
me that when homosexuals ask for compassion this plea should considered in
a way similar to a plea for compassion from a person who has difficulty
stopping drinking or taking drugs, or who sometimes goes crazy...
Anyhow, the House (Feb 6, 1973) is quite clear about homosexuality:
"...it is clear from the teaching of Baha'u'llah that homosexuality is not
a condition to which a person should be reconciled, but is a distortion of
his or her nature which should be controlled and overcome..."
As is well-know here, I have little patience when attempts are made to
humanise the House. One writer -- in the past few days - has suggested
that the House has got it wrong about homosexuality and will eventually
recognise the error of its ways. I find this stance completely out of
harmony with what I take to be a just response to a House decision.
However, I am not so perfect that I can afford to dwell on this lapse of
intellectual and spiritual judgement.... Am I now? ;-}
Eating fire,
Robert.
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 16:01:29 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: Noorbakhsh.Monzavi@hibo.no, Masumian@mail.utexas.edu,
frlw@midway.uchicago.edu
Subject: Iran News, Jan 22 (fwd)
>Three Iranian Sailors Seek Asylum In Australia, Reuters,
>January 20
>
> CANBERRA - Three Iranian sailors who abandoned
>their Iranian bulk grain carrier off the Western
>Australian coast earlier this week will formally seek
>asylum in Australia, an official said on Saturday.
> The three men, who have not been identified,
>jumped on Wednesday from the carrier, Iran Taleghani,
>took to a life boat and spent 12 hours in the Southern
>Ocean off Western Australia's southern coast before
>becoming seasick and returning to the ship.
> Australian officials then stepped in and removed
>them from the Iran-bound ship off the coast near Perth
>on Thursday night after the ship's owners asked for the
>men to be put on a plane back to Iran.
> "We had a meeting with them last night and they
>decided that they would formally seek asylum," a
>spokesman for the Department of Immigration told
>Reuters.
> He said their applications would be assessed over
>the next six to eight weeks to see whether they were
>justified in fearing retribution on their return to Iran
>and therefore were eligible for asylum....
>
>
>Mullahs' Revolutionary Guards Planning to Remain in
>Bosnia, The Washington Post, January 21
>
> More than 200 foreign Islamic fighters remain in
>Bosnia, even as the deadline for their departure passed
>last week, according to U.S. officials who continue to view
>the armed foreigners as a potential threat to U.S. and
>other NATO troops enforcing peace in the Balkans.
> Hundreds of other Islamic fighters, who had
>backed the mostly Muslim Bosnian army since the war
>erupted four years ago, left Bosnia in recent weeks... But
>a sizable group of Iranian Revolutionary Guards and
>additional mercenaries from across the Islamic world
>have stayed in Bosnia looking to change their official
>status to make them exempt from the Dayton provisions,
>U.S. officials said....
> Although the [Islamic fighters] have not threatened
>U.S. forces in Bosnia, they have tangled with British and
>Croatian forces. U.S. officials view them as inherently
>hostile to American troops and others in the
>international force....
> Of particular interest is a contingent of 150 to 250
>Iranian Revolutionary Guards who have served
>primarily in Bosnia as military trainers. Their base camp
>is in Fojnica, about 30 miles northwest of Sarajevo.
> "There are some concerns that the Iranians and
>Bosnians are now trying to create a new status for the
>Guards, designating them civilian teachers instead of
>military trainers," said a U.S. military officer responsible
>for monitoring the region....
>
>
>President Mubarak Supports Sanctions against Iranian
>Regime, Iran Zamin News Agency, January 21
>
> In an interview with French Le Figaro, Egyptian
>President Hosni Mubarak supported the U.S. economic
>sanctions against the Iranian regime and said that the
>sanctions aim to curb Iran's support of terrorism.
> In the interview, the Egyptian President stated that
>Tehran government continues to support terrorism and
>fundamentalist groups. He added that sanctions can be
>removed when Iran stops supporting terrorist groups.
>
>
>Iran Dismisses Arafat's Election Victory, Reuters, January
>21
>
> NICOSIA - Iran on Sunday dismissed Yasser
>Arafat's victory in Palestinian general elections and said
>the vote showed the shaky foundations of his self-rule
>authority....
> "Despite Western propaganda, one cannot take the
>results of these elections as a criterion for the legitimacy
>of the PLO and the compromisers among the Palestinian
>people," said the State-run Tehran radio, monitored by
>the British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC)....
> Iran's Islamic leaders say Israel has no right to
>exist and strongly oppose Arafat's peace deal with the
>Jewish state....
> "That demonstrates very well the shakiness of the
>foundations of the self-rule establishment and, on the
>other hand, the legitimacy of the combatant groups
>among the people of Palestine," the radio said....
>
>
>
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 18:02:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Jackson Armstrong-Ingram
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re sex and values
WARNING!! This posting includes 'adult' material. If you are
uncomfortable reading such material, don't.
Family is very important to the Sambia. It is unthinkable that a man
would have sexual relations with any woman other than his wife. The
Sambia believe that it requires frequent intercourse during pregnancy to
create a healthy baby as the child's blood and flesh are formed from the
mother's retained menstrual blood and the bones are formed from the
father's semen. The duty of men toward male children does not end with
their birth, however. A girl will naturally mature into a woman becasue
she has absorbed sufficient menstrual blood from her mother while in the
womb and this has potentiated the organ that will produce menstrual blood
in her at puberty. Boys also have this organ, but in them it remains
dormant. Boys do not have an active capacity to produce semen, so to
become men and to be able to pass on semen to create healthy babies they
must be given semen by older males. Boys after the age of about seven
are taught to fellate postpubertal boys who are themselves being fed by
young men who are not yet fathers. It is a male social duty to feed
younger males and enable them to successfully become men. The act of
fellatio is nuturative. To refuse it would be selfsih and antisocial.
Similar views occur among a number of Melanesian peoples.
Family is very important among the peoples of many Pacific islands. The
major purpose of marriage is to have children. It is a terrible
misfortune for a married couple not to be able to have children. Only a
foolhardy couple would get married without getting pregnant first and
knowing that they were able to have children. In many Pacific islands
there is no concept of erotic kissing. A standard part of erotic
activity is biting. It is especially exciting to bite off eyelashes.
The western interest in female breasts is considered inexplicable.
Female breasts are for feeding babies; are western men hungry? Among one
Pacific group, however, sex is considered unpleasant verging on painful
and risky to the health. It is good manners to wish that a couple being
married have two children as quickly as possible and then they will never
have to do it again.
Family was very important to the Oneida Community in 19th century New
York state. They practised 'complex marriage'-- all the men were married
to all the women. The most important thing in sexual relations was that
the woman be properly satisfied. The spiritual progress that was the
main purpose of sex was dependant on this. Men were taught to practice
'coitus reservatus' to enable them to engage in intercourse for extended
periods (well over an hour) without ejaculating. Thus women could have a
satisfying sexual life without the risk of pregnancy.
Among one Central American group it is usual for married couples to have
sex several times a day. A couple that has not had sex for 11 days is
considered divorced. They use a position that requires the minimum of
bodily contact and may complete sex in 1 minute or less.
Family is very important to the Chinese who traditionally placed many
restrictions on when sex between husband and wife was appropriate. It
became completely inappropriate after the birth of the first grandchild
or after the age of forty.
Family is very important in southern and eastern Africa. There a number
of peoples have institutionalized quasi-marriages between persons of the
same sex who may also have marital relationships with persons of the
opposite sex.
Family was very important in mediaeval Europe. It was believed by
physicians that conception required orgasm by both partners. The
Catholic Church permitted women to masturbate to orgasm if their husbands
ejaculated before satisfying them, as long as this was done with the
desire to become pregnant.
In late 19th century America women were not believed by most physicians
to have any sexual drive. Orgasm in a woman was a sign of pathology that
required rigorous, even surgical, treatment. Women needed to be
protected from the sexual demands of men. Sexual activity by men could
be risky to their health, however, and lead to dire results if not
'moderate.' Many physicians believed that if this moderate regime
included using prostitutes it was healthier to use male prostitutes as
men could only contract venereal disease from female prostitutes.
Family is very important in the Middle East. Women have been
traditionally believed to have a sexual drive up to nine times as strong
as that of a man. A woman is in a constant state of sexual readiness and
the mere presence of any unrelated man is likely to cause her to want to
seduce him. Men have to be protected from the sexual temptations of
women. And women's families have to be protected from the risk to their
honor of women's unfettered lust. Such ideas are an aspect of what is
known as the Mediterranean culture complex (although the area it applies
to extends well beyond the Mediterranean) and are not derivative of
Islam. They predate Islam and are found among all religions in the
region. Indeed the most extreme aspects, such as infibulation, can be
even more prevalent among other groups (e.g. Coptic Christians). In
societies exhibiting this culture complex, erotic activity between men is
relatively common irrespective of whether they are also married to
women.
The term 'homosexual' was created in the 19th century west to describe
individuals who were believed to be a 'female soul trapped in a male
body.' As these individuals were held to be essentially female, although
apparently male, in conformity with the current view of female sexuality
they were assumed to have a passive sexual nature that expressed itself
in a desire for erotic activity with men. Homosexuals did not want to
have sex with homosexuals by definition. 'Normal' men took an 'active'
role in sexual encounters whether these were with women or homosexuals.
Some decades later, the term 'heterosexual' was created to denote those
who -only- desired erotic activity with those of the 'opposite' sex. The
creation of the term 'heterosexual' was part of a process of value ranking
types of sexual behavior and attempting to link them with judgments on
the social utility of individuals based on gender and sexuality. Later
yet, the referent of the term 'homosexual' was redrawn to oppose it to
'heterosexual.' Attempting to relate these two opposed terms to actual
behavior then required the invention of the term 'bisexual' to denote
those who could not be covered by a simple dichotomy.
The issue is complicated by the use of these terms to describe both
specific instances of behavior and specific individuals. Thus they are
used both as neutral adjectives and as reified labels which may be value
loaded. In many cultures historically and contemporarily these terms cannot be
usefully applied other than as neutral adjectives. The reified label
concepts are culture specific and not generalizable.
The term 'sodomy' is long established in western law and is not
specifically linked to homosexuality. Basically, it refers to erotic
activity between sentient beings that has no possibility of resulting in
reproduction. Thus it can be between any combination of men, women, or
animals. (Chickens have had a prominent place in the legal history of
sodomy.) I have even seen 'sodomites' used to refer to men who had sex
with women of another 'race' by an 18th century author. Although the
word is popularly used to refer to anal intercourse this is only one
aspect of its legal meaning and also not one to restrict it to homosexual
contexts.
THere is nothing 'natural' about human sexual activity, let alone the
ideas people have about sex. There is nothing 'natural' about human
family or marriage systems. Reproduction of the species requires that
male and female gametes be brought together. How they are brought
together is biologically irrelevant. That the vast majority of human
erotic activity does not bring gametes together is also irrelevant.
Human erotic activity is situated in specific socio-cultural contexts.
Family and marriage systems are situated in specific socio-cultural
contexts. There is no such thing as 'natural' erotic activity, a
'natural' family, or 'natural' family values.
Part of the operation of any culture is producing a feeling of
'naturalness' (inevitability, humanness) in its members about what they
do. The challenge for global thinking is to be able to stand aside from
this spurious feeling of 'naturalness' about one's own cultural
arrangements; to stand aside not only from what actually occurs but also
from what is -supposed- to occur. It is unlikely that concepts linked to
and privileging highly specific attitudes and behaviors are useful in
terms of articulating a globally applicable morality. It is more likely
that core concepts that can be applied in many specific socio-cultural
contexts will be useful.
19th and 20th century Christian missionizing was accompanied by muumuus
and the missionary position as a set of religious concepts was tied to a
set of socio-culturally specific erotic attitudes and practices. The
results of such an intertwining were cultural dislocation and hypocracy.
To this day, there is no open discourse on sexuality between westerners
and the rest of the world. The west ( or a segment of the west) has so
successfully missionized its own views on 'normal' sex that much of the
world's peoples are aware that their own beliefs and practices are
deviant by those standards and they tend to allow westerners to simply
assume that everybody else does 'it' the same way. In fact, most of the
world sees the west as rather odd and blithely goes on doing 'it' their
own way without discussing the issue. Almost everything about 19th
century middle eastern family and marriage systems and sexual practices
was aberrant by then western standards. Much of it still is.
Religious ideas cannot be worked out in socio-culturally meaningful ways
if they are only available packaged with the specifics of a particular
time and place. It is part od understanding them to be able to unpack
these ideas from their original context and repackage them in -any-
context while remaining true to their core. This is the case when using
them in any new culture whether that culture is geographically or
temporally distant from the original socio-cultural context in which the
ideas were expressed.
It is necessary for members of -all- cultures to realize that however
'natural' and fixed their culture seems, change always occurs. The
important thing is the coherence of that change with core values not the
outward specifics, and our responsibility to consciously adopt and
maintain those values rather than simply follow exterior forms be those
attitudinal or behavioral.
Jackson
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 17:31:17 -0600 (CST)
From: Paul Easton
To: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: learning to love Talisman
On Mon, 22 Jan 1996 Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl wrote:
> Warning! this posting is entirely ad homina and may damage
> your health
> - The sturgeon-general
>
At fifty posts a day, we're all gonna die of brain cancer.
>, and I think Burl is a Walrus.
I think Burl is THE Walrus (koo koo ka choo)
Sorry, first day of the semester.
_____________________________________________________________________________
Paul C. Easton
_____________________________________________________________________________
HOME || WORK
________________________________________||___________________________________
2321 Jersey Street || UW-Stevens Point
Stevens Point, WI 54481 || International Programs
|| Stevens Point, WI 54481-3897
PHONE: (715) 344-4174 || PHONE: (715) 346-2717
E-MAIL: peaston@worf.uwsp.edu || FAX: (715) 346-3591
________________________________________||___________________________________
O Lord! make us firm in Thy love and cause us to be loving toward the
whole of mankind. Confirm us in service to the world of humanity, so
that we may become the servants of Thy servants, that we may love all Thy
creatures and become compassionate to all Thy people. -`Abdu'l-Baha'
=END=
Date: 22 Jan 96 18:32:09 EST
From: Riaz Missaghian <100257.713@compuserve.com>
To: Juan R Cole
Cc: Talisman
Subject: No academic books? was: farmers and intellectuals?
Dear Juan, you wrote:
>Much energy is
>apparently put into ensuring that no Baha'is practice the culture of
>critical discourse, and into ensuring that they are all good little
>foot-soldiers who salute and obey orders implicitly. Which is why there
>is only one academic book, published by an academic press, by a Baha'i
>academic (Peter Smith) on the Baha'i Faith; most intellectuals have
>either left or figured out they should put their important energies into
>something else.
I have to disagree... You probably are not aware of the German book
_Disinformation as a Method. The Baha'ism-Monography of F. Ficicchia_ written by
Udo Schaefer, Nicola Towfigh, and Ulrich Gollmer. It has just been published a
couple of months ago by an renowned (at least in Germany) academic press (Olms
Verlag) and deals with a book about the Baha'i Faith written by a covenant
breaker. His book has done a lot of damage in Germany (he is attesting
fascistoid tendencies to the Baha'is...) and the German Baha'i community is very
proud of the very well researched and well written book of those three German
Baha'is.
I am a PhD student at the School of Religion (Religionswissenschaft) at Bonn
University in Germany and my professor was very impressed by the book
_Disinformation_. To my mind this book is the launching for German academics to
examine the Baha'i Faith more closely, to include it in their studies, and not
to end an introductory course in comparative religion with Islam anymore...
I also would like to say that the German Baha'i community has started to develop
an academic discussion among the Baha'is (initiated by Udo Schaefer, one can
say). It will take some time, though. Maybe I am naive but I honestly do not
sense the general feeling of any anti-intellectualism here in Germany. Maybe
there are SOME Baha'is who think an academic discussion is not necessary (after
all, everything is said in the Writings, right...?), but I suppose this is only
because they cannot imagine the new generation of (Baha'i) academics who can
combine their deep love to Baha'u'llah (with all its consequences) with the
active use of their mind, reason, and intellect. I am not saying that we are
this new generation but I really hope we are on our way to this goal.
Fiona Missaghian
P.S. Maybe some of the people on Talisman remember me: last year I searched for
support for my Thesis on Baha'i Ethics. Well, the University of Southern
California conferred the degree of the Master of Arts on me and now I am back in
Germany working on my dissertation.
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 17:22:01 -0600 (CST)
From: Robert Lee Green
To: "talisman@indiana.edu"
Cc: Bahai-Campus-Forum-Request@BCCA.Org
Subject: Urgent request for prayers!/interview with Governor of P. R. (fwd)
:-)
------------------------------------------------
| "O SON OF SPIRIT! |
Robert Green | My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, |
rlg0001 | kindly and radiant heart, that thine may |
@jove.acs.unt.edu | be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable |
| and everlasting." - Baha'u'llah |
------------------------------------------------
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 15:14:14 -0500
From: CVKBahai@aol.com
To: secretariat@bwc.org, nabi@usbnc.org, lgi@usbnc.org, louhelen@usbnc.org,
greenacre@usbnc.org, bosch@usbnc.org, Gata@aol.com, NTC@usbnc.org,
mis@usbnc.org, community@usbnc.org, usopi-ny@bic.org,
Bahai-Women@bcca.org, tmennillo@usbnc.org, Noble-Creation@bcca.org,
mfarhad@bwc.org, corinneh@glas.apc.org
Cc: atirandaz@medinfo.dom.uab.edu
Subject: Urgent request for prayers!/interview with Governor of P. R.
Please, friends, let us keep the Governor in our prayers this week to open
his heart to the Puerto Rican Baha'is' message, (start "working on him"
today, and call in all your dear departed ones in the Army of the Abha
Kingdom to "knead his heart" for these two days prior to the meeting, until,
on Wednesday, at the appointed hour, he will be surrounded by prayers and
light, a pulsating magnet irresistably attracted to the Forces of the
Kingdom....!!! ) and maybe even invite your favorite soul-siblings to come
together with you to focus and channel your prayer efforts. Can you imagine
what changes Baha'u'llah would fashion in the world through those prayers if
we organized a world-wide campaign of focused, focused prayers directed one
by one at the leaders of thought around the globe?? There is a mighty,
churning, untapped power surrounding us, JUST across the veil, and our test
is to have the courage and discipline to use it to advance the Cause of God.
Any takers?
Dear loved ones in Puerto Rico, we ARE surrounding you with a mighty torrent
of prayers! Who could bear to NOT be a part of your triumph for the Cause?!!
Much, much love,
Cindy Van Kley
********************
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: kkalant@ns.inter.edu (Kenneth Kalantar)
Sender: Bahai-Announce-x@Bounty.BCCA.Org
To: Bahai-Announce@BCCA.Org (Baha'i Announce)
Date: 96-01-21 01:55:46 EST
20 January 1996
Dear Baha'i Friends,
The ["National"] Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of Puerto Rico
requested and received an appointment with the Governor of Puerto Rico,
Dr. Pedro Rosello/ [accent on the last "o"], to discuss the ways and
means by which the Assembly might help in the process of achieving "the
progress of the people of Puerto Rico toward more unity, security and
peace."
The meeting/interview is to take place from 3:30 to 4:00 pm Atlantic
Standard Time (four hours earlier than Greenwich Mean Time [ = 11:30 to
12:00 noon GMT], on Wednesday 31 January 1996 at the Governor's office.
We humbly request your prayers for the success of the visit and assure
you of our deep appreciation therefor.
With loving Baha'i greetings,
SPIRITUAL ASSEMBLY OF THE BAHA'IS OF PUERTO RICO
Kenneth E. Kalantar, secretary
=END=
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 12:39:18 +1300 (NZDT)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: SDC 15: ah bin okay, relly..
Ffolks Talismans,
I have been silent for a number of days...And a couple of
letters have drifted in to me from across the world.
Am I OK?
Do you know the feeling you have when you are lying on your bed, gazing at
the ceiling and your best friend comes to the door and calls out, "Are you
OK? " and all the kindness and care sounds like an accusation.
I am sorry that I have not responded to those persons who asked even though
the mercy of their kindness has seemed like a surfeit of blessedness.
But... Enough. I HAVE been OK. Really... (That's not me who is limping
;-}) I have been watching the letters flood in, like water spilling over
a waterfall... As usual the letters between Philip and Bev have been
charming. My dear and utterly genuine and sincere friend Jim has been
whacked a couple of times (Ho Jim!!), Alison has written a couple of
thought-provoking letters, Sandy and Burl have agreed that legions of
homosexuals and scholars are about to enter the Faith and severely test
down-home simpletons like myself ;-}...
Yes: I bin watching. Me and the Covenant Breaker that Stephen Birkland has
just told us about... (When I read it I though, "Yeah, that's why I've
been silent!") (I'd trash him, John).
I read Quanta's letter written in the language of her region.
Yeah, an' ah bin ok, relly. Jes restin. an swimmin ...an thinkin... and
toolin aroun.. Thats ahl. So here's SDC 15. no intradukshun.
Robert.
SDC 15
As to those who maintain that the inauguration of reforms and the
setting up of powerful institutions would in reality be at variance with
the good pleasure of God and would contravene the laws of the Divine
Law-Giver and run counter to basic religious principles and to the ways of
the Prophet-- let them consider how this could be the case. Would such
reforms contravene the religious law because they would be acquired from
foreigners and would therefore cause us to be as they are, since "He who
imitates a people is one of them"? In the first place these matters
relate to the temporal and material apparatus of civilization, the
implements of science, the adjuncts of progress in the professions and the
arts, and the orderly +P26 conduct of government. They have nothing
whatever to do with the problems of the spirit and the complex realities
of religious doctrine. If it be objected that even where material affairs
are concerned foreign importations are inadmissible, such an argument
would only establish the ignorance and absurdity of its proponents. Have
they forgotten the celebrated hadith (Holy Tradition): "Seek after
knowledge, even unto China"? It is certain that the people of China were,
in the sight of God, among the most rejected of men, because they
worshiped idols and were unmindful of the omniscient Lord. The Europeans
are at least "Peoples of the Book," and believers in God and specifically
referred to in the sacred verse, "Thou shalt certainly find those to be
nearest in affection to the believers, who say, `We are Christians.'"[
Qur'an 5:85.] It is therefore quite permissible and indeed more
appropriate to acquire knowledge from Christian countries. How could
seeking after knowledge among the heathen be acceptable to God, and
seeking it among the People of the Book be repugnant to Him?
=END=
[end of 1/22/96 session]
Talisman emails received 1/23/96
---------------------------------------------------------
From: AGhosh@uh.edu
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 18:15:20 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Desubscribe till I finish, please
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Well, just when the debates are getting interesting.
But please desubscribe me till I finish this dissertation thing.
I should be back in June
Love
Arindam
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 18:21:00 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Firesides
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Arsalan J. Sadighi" ,
"Talisman"
My Dear Brother Arsalan,
I would suggest initially a division of labor. In other words, those
with particular talents should be utilized accordingly.
So IMHO there could be:
1) INVITERS: people who are comfortable meeting the public and who are
also the MOST credible Baha'is in the community. By that I mean they
understand that they must ascociate with people with humility and
fragrance when presenting Baha'u'llah's precious gift.
2) ORGANIZERS: people who know how to create a fine and warm atmosphere
for a meeting. Sometimes these people might be good party throwers
3) SPEAKERS: those who are well grounded in the Faith and also
understand their obligation as presenters of God's message, also.
IMHO, it might be helpful for the Friends to team up. It seems to me that
these suggestions for a community can have meaning for the individual, in
the sense that, after doing this as a group they might feel more courage
to try firesides on their own. Because IMHO experience like training
builds confidence. Particularly if Baha'u'llah confirms the communities
activities.
These, of course, are just some thoughts and I wouldn't want them
considered in any other light.
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 18:08:56 -0700 (MST)
From: SALVATORE E INDIOGINE
To: "Arsalan J. Sadighi"
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Firesides
On Mon, 22 Jan 1996, Arsalan J. Sadighi wrote:
> Friends,
>
> Considering the fact that my questions are routinely ignored by most, I see
> fit to continue with my unwanted beahvior.
>
> My question has to do with how to attract seekers to firesides
Good food. I would suggest authentic gourmet Italian, but I am biased
(and Italian).
> and what
> topics to present.
Depends on your target population. BTW, most people have a built in BS
detectors, so no empty words and platitudes.
I can share with you the kind of fireside that has been effective in
making me want to become a Bahai:
1. Chanting a prayer. Remarks: a. performed by a woman; b. you could sense
clearly the feelings and sincerity of it.
2. Great food (Brent's wife Vicky is not only a fine artist).
3. One-to-one dialogue with a kind and knowledgeable Bahai.
Most people do not want to listen to talks, but will have a nice
conversation with someone who listens and sincerely answers questions.
Bye,
Eric Indiogine (sindiogi@nmsu.edu), Dept. Civil, Agricultural,
and Geological Engineering, New Mexico State University,
Las Cruces, New Mexico, U.S.A.
## True loss is for him whose days have been ##
## spent in utter ignorance of his self ##
-* Baha'u'llah, Words of Wisdom #21 *-
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 20:39:48 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: "Exile in Paradise" Pt 1
Dear All,
This is a follow up to my "Road to Shiraz" ruminations last
spring. It is my attempt to explore the significance of two
"events" that are also metaphors for the spiritual life; the Siyah
Chal and Ridvan (Paradise).
These events, as symbols, have something to say. They can
"speak" to us about teaching; the Guardians vision of America's
Destiny, and Baha'u'llah's summons to America in the Most Holy Book
to "Bind ye the broken with the hands of justice, and crush the
oppressor who flourisheth with the rod of the commandments of your
Lord, the Ordainer, the All-Wise."
These two events as metaphor have, I believe great potential
for Baha'i's to engage the world. This is particularly true in
terms of what Anthony Gidden has described as "Life Politics" and
"Emancipatory Politics". Life politics has to do with personal
fulfillment, recognition and participation in the wholeness of
life. Emancipatory politics has to do with longer standing
concerns for freedom and justice.
Last spring I wrote that on the Road to the Siyah Chal we
would meet Susan B. Anthony and Frederick Douglas, two
contemporaries of Baha'u'llah and key figures in 19th century
American emancipatory politics; women's rights and the abolition
of slavery. Perhaps what follows is my way of honoring them.
The Siyah Chal and Ridvan as "event" and as metaphor is a
union of history and hierohistory; the opening act in a renewal of
Theophany and the emergence of an Irfan Republic.
In this union of mythic theme, reflective reason and trans-
rational vision lies the sublime city of Unity - Paradise, the
appearance of which was the purpose of Baha'u'llah's life. But
first the Siyah Chal...
In Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, Baha'u'llah described His
imprisonment in the Siyah Chal. He recounts these past events for
the purpose "...that perchance they may be the means of
understanding the cause of equity and justice." I wish to explore
the significance of Baha'u'llah's imprisonment for He has asserted,
earlier in the Epistle, that the "sublime station of unity will
remain hidden", veiled to our eyes. "So long, however as the
thick clouds of oppression, which obscure the daystar of justice,
remain undispelled."
As Baha'u'llah's goal is "...to disclose the glory and
sublimity of this station (of unity) we need to dispel the "thick
clouds of oppression" that we might attain "this transcendent and
most sublime station." This is the station in which we
"...pierceth the veils of plurality", beholdeth the mysteries of
divine creation" and "...shareth as an intimate the pavilion of the
Loved One". Here in this sublime station "...we gaze on the
manifestation of Oneness". This it seems is the experience of
Paradise (Ridvan). Before the "thick clouds of oppression may be
dispelled"; before the "daystar of justice" many illumine the Road
to Ridvan; before this may be manifest within ourselves and within
our world, there is another city and road to be traveled. The road
to Baghdad and Ridvan passes through Tehran and the Road of the
Siyah Chal.
In the Siyah Chal the "thick clouds of oppression" were
dispelled by Baha'u'llah and upon His release the daystar of
justice was to shine forth to, as He says, for "regenerating this
people". I would suggest that the task of regeneration, re-
creation, the transformation which "is the object of every
Revelation" must confront and embrace the Siyah Chal first within
our soul and then within the world.
This place, the Siyah Chal, is most remarkable. It is a place
and occurs in a time; an historically verifiable place and time.
It is remarkable because the mythic theme contained within the
Siyah Chal happens not in mythic time or place. Thousands of years
earlier, the redemptive experience of Baha'u'llah with the Maid of
Heaven, was echoed in Egyptian and Sumerian legend. There are the
"myths" of Isis and Osiris, and Innana and Damuzi These ancient
mythic legends were and are prophetic and redemptive. The female
god descends to the netherworld to rescue her male consort. In the
case of Baha'u'llah the Maid of Heaven appears in the dungeon of
Tehran, the Siyah Chal, to the "agonized soul of Baha'u'llah" in
the words of the Guardian. Note however, that this does not take
place in mythic time or place. It results from an identifiable act
of injustice in lived historical time and place. Please not e the
Guardians description here. This was to the "agonized soul" - that
is rational human soul of Baha'u'llah.
If we examine the history of Nasut - the outer form of life -
for clues we may then be able to re-construct the hierohistory of
the soul and find pathways to transformation our exodus from self,
release from the slavery and bondage of self.
Let us turn toward the Road of Siyah Chal and re-construct
Baha'u'llah's account. In it we may find clues signs of God which
parallel the experience of us all and which we must all engage and
embrace before proceeding on the Road to Ridvan (Paradise).
Baha'u'llah begins: "We were consigned for four months to a
place foul beyond comparison...Upon our arrival We were first
conducted along a pitch black corridor, from whence We descended
three steep flights of stairs..." We begin to "recognize" (Irfan)
as we descend the first of "these steep flights of stairs." Having
passed the dark corridor the light begins to dim. What does that
look like? How does it feel? Each of us has an experience of that
moment of dread, of dare I say fear for what unknown is to lay
ahead.
The first flight - the foul quality of the air becomes
apparent. The sense of sight now strained and dimmed asserts
itself through an enhanced sense of smell. This is not the "rose
garden of changeless splendor" as the loathsome odor, the admixture
of mold, stagnant water and human waste becomes apparent. The
second flight - trapped in total darkness, the air has a chill, a
chill that passes through the soul expectant for what lay ahead.
The ears begin to notice sounds - movements - that the eyes cannot
detect. The eyes no longer perceiving; the ears fasten on the
sounds, the moans of human pain and madness. The third flight - it
is colder now, the "loathsome smell" of this place has overtaken
any sense of the world left behind. The cold dampness, the odor
hangs in the stillness, attaching itself to the body, the skin
begins to react to the chill, the knowledge of the senses and the
thought of what lies ahead. The agony has begun.
We are here, the dungeon: "The Dungeon was wrapped in thick
darkness, and Our fellow prisoners numbered nearly a hundred and
fifty souls: thieves, assassins and highwaymen." Note here that
Baha'u'llah says our companion were 150 "souls".
"No pen can depict that place, nor any tongue describe its
loathsome smell." This is a place which we all know, it is a place
that cannot be spoken, it is only experienced. Here is St. John of
the Cross's "Dark night of the soul". This is the place of
Nietzsche's madness and the pain and madness, physical and
spiritual, of 150 souls. This is the place of every human who has
known the agony of non recognition or injustice.
"Most of these men had neither clothes nor bedding to lie on.
God alone knoweth what befell Us in that most foul-smelling and
gloomy place!"
Now we can realize this was not the Hyatt Regency, there was
no call to room service, no in house laundry, no showers, no
restrooms, no clean sheets. Most of these men had no clothes.
What must the nature of a foul-smelling and gloomy place be
like. Gloomy - this is a mild word for despair, for depression,
for hopelessness. In this place of gloom of existential despair
Baha'u'llah notes "We meditated upon the deeds, the conditions, and
the conduct of the Babi's" resolving upon His release to undertake,
" with the utmost vigor the task of regenerating the people."
The saga of this place, foul beyond comparison, physically and
spiritually - remember it was populated with souls of "thieves,
assassins and highwaymen" this place of loathsome - that is
repellant smell, the saga of this place of gloom continues.
Continued..........
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 21:06:07 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: "Exile in Paradise" Pt 2
Part 2
It was here in this place that we all know, this place of
despair born of injustice that Baha'u'llah says "One night in a
dream these exalted words were heard on every side: 'Verily, We
shall render Thee victorious by Thyself and by Thy Pen.'" The
best, for our purposes is yet to come for amidst this "most foul
smelling and gloomy place" the Voice continued "Grieve thou not for
that which hath befallen Thee, neither be Thou afraid, for Thou art
in safety". We may, I think, understand for this Voice to speak
these words that Baha'u'llah had grieved, he had experienced fear
and had anxiety for His safety. This was after all an "agonized
soul".
Here in the Siyah Chal Baha'u'llah found the divine re-
assurance that awaits us all; the intimation of Paradise. We too
need not be afraid for we also "art in safety." Though we also
experience those times when at best we have "infrequent moments of
slumber" and the "galling weight of the chains" of materialism,
secularism, racism, poverty and despair; here we also may
experience something that flows "from the crown of My head over my
breast". Those moments when "every limb of my body would, as a
result, be set afire." It was at a moment such as this that
Baha'u'llah writes "While engulfed in tribulations I heard a most
wondrous, a most sweet voice, calling above my head. Turning my
face, I beheld a Maiden - the embodiment of the remembrance of the
name of my Lord."
Here, as Baha'u'llah notes, engulfed in tribulations, not
engulfed in spiritual prozac, He heard a most sweet voice and
beheld the Maid of Heaven. Here in this state of tribulation He
experienced the Beatific Vision. It was in this state of
tribulation that "She was imparting to both My inward and outward
being tidings which rejoiced My soul, and the souls of God's
honored servants." What I find most stunning in this is the last
phrase. "...the souls of Gods honored servants." In as much as we
are all "God's honored servants", this experience awaits all of
us, especially "while engulfed in tribulations." This experience
is not something to be denied, or wished away or one from which to
hide as though there were a refuge. There is only one route into
the Siyah Chal and only one route out of the Siyah Chal. That is
our own soul. In those moments of "infrequent slumber, gloom and
tribulation we are "in safety" for what awaits us is a "most
wondrous, a most sweet voice" what awaits us is the unfolding
hierohistory of the soul, the Presence of the Divine Maiden, "the
embodiment of the remembrance of our Lord". What awaits us is the
experience of the Glory of God.
Before His release from the transformed tomb that was the
Siyah Chal; before He began a life of exile, Baha'u'llah had begun
His Mission. In that dark dungeon the sounds and moans of human
despair and suffering were being transformed. The world above, as
well as those below, was to hear and experience the chant - the
Remembrance - the opening act in a new Theophany: "God is
sufficient unto me; He verily is the All-Sufficing!...In Him let
the trusting trust." The regeneration of this people has begun.
There is no short cut to this Sublime City of Unity. The Road
to Ridvan (Paradise) has been, is and most needs to reached by way
of Shiraz, Tehran and the Road to the Siyah Chal. It is in the
event, the experience of the Siyah Chal, and the metaphor as
participatory and emancipatory symbol that we discover the meaning
of exile and paradise. We discover what it means to be an "exile
in paradise."
The Road to Paradise, of necessity, leads form the Siyah Chal
through the high mountains of exile. On His Journey to
"regenerating this people" Baha'u'llah became homeless and an
exile. This "Exile" was to sever attachment to name or fame or
rank. And in this exile, if we would follow the footprints from
the Siyah Chal through the snow-filled and chilling mountains of
the "winter of our discontent" we will arrive at our destination.
We will find ourselves in Ridvan, as an exile in Paradise.
The Paradise that we seek, Baha'u'llah states in a Tablet
provisionally translated by Stephen Lambden, proclaims the end of
holy war, the absence of a Theophany for at least a 1000 years, and
that "The True One...manifested all the Divine Names upon all
created things." Each of these is significant it seems to me. The
end of holy war is the abolition of the "other" in religious
history. The absence of another Theophany creates a boundary which
is the whole earth, the first articulation of a framework for
universal values. The manifestations of the Divine Names upon each
created being proclaims a unity of God, and with respect to
humankind - the end of humans as "other" in sociopolitical history.
The door is now closed, Baha'u'llah seems to say to the exaltation
of one religious community over another, to the domination of one
nation by another and the subjugation of one human being by
another. All humanity is filled with the Divine Names, illumined
with the Glory of God. It is this end of "otherness" in the
message of Baha'u'llah which makes of Him what I would call the
Prophet of a world beyond Modernity.
The Paradise we seek in our passage through the Siyah Chal was
"witnessed" first by Baha'u'llah in the Siyah Chal, the clash of
traditional society and modernity. Here Baha'u'llah was
transformed by the Will of His "Lord the All-Merciful". Here He
beheld the Beatific Vision and understood His mission of
"regenerating this people". It is a mission which proclaims as its
goal "that the Diverse communions of the earth, and the manifold
systems of religious belief, should never be allowed to foster the
feeling of animosity among men, is, in this Day, of the essence of
the Faith of God and His religion". It is in the fulfillment of
this mission envisaged in the gloom, despair, and injustice of the
Siyah Chal that lies the pathway beyond tradition and modernity,
the Road to Paradise, the death of the separate self and the
permanent recognition in God; the experience of the Best Beloved
and the Best Beloved of all things in Her sight. It is a "Road"
traveled by 'exiles in Paradise'.
This is the experience of Martin Luther King, the night before
he was martyred, I believe, for the Cause of God - dispelling the
thick clouds of oppression. That night King spoke, "I have been
to the mountaintop...I just want to do God's will...And I've looked
over and I've seen the Promised Land. I may not get there with
you... I want you to know tonight - that we as a people will get to
the Promised Land." This land which lay just outside and
surrounds the Gate to the personal fulfillment and ecstasy of the
sublime and glorious City of unity. It is on this Road to Ridvan
(Paradise) that we trace the path of Mirza Husayn Ali of Nur and
Abbas Effendi. With them we meet and honor Anthony and Douglas and
Day and Bonhoeffer and King and the unrecognized millions who have
traveled the road to recognition and emancipation; the Road to
Paradise. But first the Siyah Chal....
warm regards ,
Terry
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 96 19:14 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: New Broadcast Material
A joke free post from Burl:
This weekend Greg Ives and I are going into his all digital studio to
produce a plethora of new Baha'i proclamaton and deepening materials. Two
important questions:
1. What do you WANT. What do you NEED.
2. What are the benifits of being a Baha'i? Can you name any and be brief?
If some asked you to name the benefits of being a Baha'i in 10 or 15
seconds, what would you say? If I asked you that about the benifits of
Cheeze Whiz, I bet you could say something, how about the benifit of a
college education, knowing how to cook, or the intrinsic value of knowing
how to pronounce Neoplatonism? Ok. What are the benifits of being a Baha'i?
You can respond directly to me at burlb@bmi.net with your "want list" and
benifits.
Burl
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Bookstacks, Ltd.
*******************************************************
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 20:29:02 -0800 (PST)
From: David M Simmons
To: Dan Orey
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: homosexuality/army
Perhaps the Baha'is are too comfortable.
Perhaps the Baha'is are too complacent in their polite Baha'i
communities with their polite feasts and non-threatening consultations.
Perhaps this is not what Baha'u'llah envisioned. After all, this
religion is supposed to be for everyone, and if some of everyone joins
it, then our communities are going to look and behave very differently.
Perhaps not so comfortable, but a hell of a lot more interesting, fun and
rewarding!
Why do we expect people already to be "perfect" and "obedient"
according to our definitions when they enroll? And why do we think we
have already made it? Or achieved something? Don't we all live in a
decaying world order? Aren't we all victims of a sick, unjust, prejudiced
society, whatever country or culture we live in? When the Baha'is of the
future look back at us they will regard us with a little awe and a lot of
horror.
Imagine 20 new believers of 6 different "categories" different
from yourself. Can't you see that it would be a marvelous change in your
Baha'i community? Wouldn't consultation, Feast, youth activities,
children's classes, firesides, deepenings and teaching in general be
completely modified? And for the better? The dynamics would change and
our own self-perspective would be radically altered. Let's get on with it.
David Simmons
Spokane Valley, WA, USA
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 23:14:21 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: homosexuality/army
From: "Richard C. Logan"
Cc: "Talisman"
This was a very constructive and benificial analysis.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 96 03:45:23 UT
From: "Hannah E. Reinstein"
To: talisman@indiana.edu, alma@indirect.com
Subject: RE: Homosexuality & entry by troops
Dear Alma, a lovely rose to you. -----`,-'-<{@
I wish that I had your forbearance. No one should have to put up with such
outrageous posts. The fact that the moderators let it go just embarrasses the
entire Baha'i community. But, hey, we're not moderated here! I'm going to
stick my neck out and tell how I fantasize replying....
Just a few days ago, as I was surfing for articles for my personal humor
distribution list, I came upon a rare gem. It's a put-down and I would NEVER
write such a thing myself. But y'know, some arguments simply don't merit a
reasoned reply. In those cases, I go for the laugh. I wouldn't dream of
posting this as a response to anyone on SRB or any Baha'i list of course, but
honestly, sometimes it's really tempting! First, a bit of background: the
person who wrote the following paragraph was exasperated by a fundamentalist
thread that argued in all seriousness that the earth was only 6,000 years old.
This is his wonderfully sarcastic reply.
God, is this a stupid idea! I mean, this is rock-hard stupid.
Dehydrated-rock-hard stupid. Stupid so stupid that it goes way beyond
the stupid we know into a whole different dimension of stupid. It is
trans-stupid stupid. Meta-stupid. It is stupid collapsed on itself so
far that even the neutrons have collapsed. Stupid gotten so dense that no
intellect can escape. Singularity stupid. It is a blazing mid-day sun on
Mercury stupid. It emits more stupid in one second than our entire galaxy
emits in a year. Quasar stupid. This has to be a troll. Nothing in our
universe can really be this stupid. Unless this is some primordial
fragment from the original big bang of stupid. Some pure essence of a
stupid so uncontaminated by anything else as to be beyond the laws of
physics that we know. I'm sorry. I can't go on. This is an epiphany of
stupid for me. After this, you may not hear from me again for a while.
Forgive me. I had to share it. It's too funny.
Hannah
====Sig line of the day=====================
...from a posting on the Young Scientists' Network Digest by the Biology Dept.
at Univ. of Wash.:
"The juvenile sea squirt wanders through the sea searching for a suitable rock
or hunk of coral to cling to and make its home for life. For this task it has
a rudimentary nervous system. When it finds its spot and takes root, it
doesn't need its brain anymore so it eats it.
----------
From: owner-talisman@indiana.edu on behalf of alma@indirect.com
Sent: Monday, 22 January, 1996 8:19 AM
To: SFotos@eworld.com; talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Homosexuality & entry by troops
Dear Sandy and other Talisfolk,
I am going to discuss how, in part, homosexuality is being treated on
soc.religion.bahai at the moment. Some of you may kind such comments
disturbing and I would suggest that those hit the delete key and not read
what I have to say.
Sadly I must agree with your assessment. About a week ago a proposed FAQ on
homosexuality was posted in srb.
=END=
From: Dave10018@aol.com
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 00:33:29 -0500
To: dan_orey@qmbridge.ccs.csus.edu, talisman@indiana.edu, mfoster@tyrolnet.com
Subject: Re: Homosexuality/Conscience
In a message dated 96-01-02 18:48:55 EST, dan_orey@qmbridge.ccs.csus.edu (Dan
Orey) writes:
>Subj: Homosexuality/Conscience
>Date: 96-01-02 18:48:55 EST
>From: dan_orey@qmbridge.ccs.csus.edu (Dan Orey)
>Sender: owner-talisman@indiana.edu
>To: dan_orey@qmbridge.ccs.csus.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
>
>GatorMail-Q Homosexuality/Conscience
>Received: by qmbridge.csus.edu (2.01/GatorMail-Q); 28 Dec 95 00:45:43 U
>Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu by csus.edu with SMTP id AA10061
> (5.65c/IDA-1.4.4 for ); Thu, 28 Dec 1995
>00:44:05 -0800
>Received: (from daemon@localhost) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu
>(8.7/8.7/1.10IUPO)
>id DAA22343 for talisman-outgoing; Thu, 28 Dec 1995 03:30:47 -0500 (EST)
>To: talisman@indiana.edu
>
>Hi, Dave -
>
>
> I agree with you regarding the social constructedness of sexual
>to identity. Irrespective of whether there are any biological correlates
>to homosexuality (and I rather suspect there are), the key is how human
>sexuality is defined within the context of revealed truths.
or, contrariwise, the paradoxical expression of revealed truth as it is
hidden in the various and rebellious actions of humanity---how human
sexuality really works. Knowing about that might be useful in understanding
its mystical import. Humanity displays all kinds of paradoxical effects,
such as that all kinds of "forbidden things" are involved in spiritual
experiences which lead to spiritual transformation. We as Baha'is tend to be
in a hurry to get to the end of the story. We want "good deeds" and "bad
deeds."
Obviously,
>itt is a complex subject and one which, I think, will only be grasped
>progressively.
>
> From my POV, sex, on the animal level, *is* love. Like all things
>physical, one's sexuality, as I think the Kashmir Shaivites understood
>it, can be either a source of frustration and possible debasement or a
>vehicle for spiritual transformation.
Sure.How else would you explain rock and roll? One does not need to journey
to the mysterious East to find examples.
In the dance of Shakti and Shiva
>is a demonstration of the divine metaphysic of unity in diversity.
>Femininity and masculinity, rather than viewed as distinct and separate
>units, can be seen, in contemporary terms, as a holographic image. The
>point of light is one. However, the appearance of spatial patterns
>(diversity) is merely an emanation or impression of that unity of light.
>
> In what could, perhaps, be called a Baha'i "tantra," all things have
>certain ideal relationships. Conformity to the gestalt (configuration)
>leads to the expression of beauty (the emanation of the Ancient Beauty)
>in the kingdoms of creation. The key for discovering the divine pattern
>lies in the Prophetic Teachings (the inner mysteries of "the words He
>hath revealed"). That, to me, is the challenge. Our present-day world
>order is so remote from the ideal that the gestalt itself, the tantra,
>has been almost totally disrupted. However, rather than focusing
>*primarily* on ameliorating the misconnections in the reality of outward
>appearances, I would rather understood the inner dynamic which generates
>the externals and attempt to work with it.
>
This makes me dizzy, Mark! It sounds like you are saying that at present the
world is so disordered that we can learn nothing from it. I geuss you would
say I am an optimist. I do not believe the apparent chaos of a world in
transition does not in itself reflect aspects of the "inner dynamic which
generates the externals."
> IMHO, gaia and all life on it itself express a tantric imbalance.
>Homosexuality is only one small dimension of it. Rather than condemning
>the condition of dis-ease which affects each one of us, perhaps we could
>instead examine the spiritual animus which is responsible for our
>present state of self-addiction. What virtues do I choose to link with,
>and how can one's moral community, one's 'umma, realize one of its
>primary functions as a cultivator of spiritual qualities.
>
> Bright blessings to you,
>
I think whatever we wish to understand we must examine without fear. If
homosexuality is not a real condition of some, or is less real for some than
others, than it must represent something real in all of us. If we were all
more aware of this aspect in ourselves, we might reach a point where the
minority would not have to carry it for the rest of us. In the meantime,
those forcing it on our attention are doing a great service, although this is
not the "Baha'i way." In the past, Baha'i homosexuals could choose
"discretion" and "privacy" and could find friends to share this "private way
of life." But now this is more difficult, and this is because the gay
community is coming out and engaging in this very important service. I think
of the Baha'i Alice Pike Barney's daughters, Laura Clifford Barney, who put
together "Some Answered Questions," and Natalie Clifford Barney, who was not
a Baha'i but was also an author, mainly of love poems to women and
epigrammes(Pensees d'une Amazone.) Her salon in Paris, well established by
1911, was as famous as that of Gertrude Stein and Alice Toklas. The Baha'is
in Paris must have known about it, probably knew her. Abdu'l Baha must have
known of it and Shoghi Effendi also.(an interesting research project for
someone?) I think in time everything will make sense. In the meantime, we
should be careful to be fair in our statements.
dave taylor
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 21:32:11 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: The Trials of Burl and Derek is there any end to our suffering?
To: burl@bmi.org
My dear Burl
The insults on Talisman just keep at you and I . What are we going to do . I
remember not too long ago when that very naughty girl Linda was attacking your
table manners and Juan accused me of being anti-intellectual bec
ause I am an economist . Then last week some strange chap said all economists
are immoral, well I ask you there is only two of us on Talisman ,Farhad Sabetan
and myself . I do not remember Farhad doing anything particular
ly exciting to count as being immoral at least that was what Karen his wife
said , she giggles at the thought Farhad could be naughty . At Bosch the
lifestyle is so pure one has to pinch ones self for excitement and to b
e naughty .Now questions are being asked in powerful influential and high
places about immoral Baha i Economists . Talisman is on the cutting edge of
anti-economism that is rampant in the Baha i Community. If you intellec
tuals thought you lived on the dark side of our community because you are
intellectuals , the suffering of economists banned from normal discourse and
relationships is legendary . But Burl the last of a long line of insu
lts no doubt started by Linda and her Shiite crazy bunch of women is :That you
are a Walrus and I am a school of shrimp. I notice Juan was a whale I see the
bias don t you Burl . You look ugly and I am going to get eaten
up with French fries and that awful tomato ketchup.
Burl you and I are the true creative side of Talisman yet we have been made to
suffer untold insults . We told the truth over Linda because this is a List of
true academic honesty . Then some chap called Logan starts call
ing her sweetie pie and cuddly bumbkins of some thing and they have never meet.
This to the woman who played Mantovani day and night at Juan stuck in the
Laundry room in DC . Burl we have to stand up for our RIGHTS give m
e your opinion Burl is it Shrimps and Walrus or is there more meaning
to life.
Your Best Friend
Derek
PS Lets not discuss this on Talisman
=END=
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 00:36:49 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: Riaz Missaghian <100257.713@compuserve.com>
Cc: Talisman
Subject: Re: No academic books?
Fiona:
Thank you for your informative reply. I was, of course, speaking of
Anglophone scholarship. I haven't ordered "Disinformation als Methode"
yet but have heard very good things about it, and of course admire Udo
Schaefer (whom I met in 1985) and the other writers you mentioned a great
deal.
I have had the most wonderful experiences with the German Baha'i
community and the significant numbers of friends among it who positively
love the life of the intellect. The Bonn Baha'i Club actually
*solicited* a paper from me, on the democratic Baha'i revolutionary,
Shaykhu'r-Ra'is, and it sailed through Review in Germany. I was tempted
to emigrate.
However, I am afraid that I and others have had different experiences in
the Anglophone communities. Some of the difference is probably just
cultural. Roy Mottahedeh told me that his *Mantle of the Prophet* sold
disappointingly in the American market, but that the German edition had
been very popular. Also, of course, Ficchia's earlier charges that the
Baha'i Faith had fascist tendencies and the way in which some German
authorities took them seriously may have alerted the German community to
the need to refute this charge and so opened up discourse in that community.
Here's a cyber-toast to the hope that the German community will prove a
shining light of tolerance and devotion to Baha'i learning, which will in
turn light the path for Anglophone Baha'is; the ironies would be very rich.
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 01:04:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: the term "non-Baha'i"
Yesterday i went to a Methodist service with a friend. it was the second
time i had gone to this church, the other time being Christmas eve.
Anyway, we went to the second service which was a small group of 30
people. The Minister had a board up and it was an informal sermon. She
spoke of rejoicing. What it means to rejoice and how this is related to
having trust in God.
(i am getting to my point soon). As she went on, she started to talk
about how we can be happy and rejoice. One of the points she made was
"living a Christian life". Fine, i agree. We Baha'is sometimes talk about
living the life. I almost stood up to ask, so if i am living a Baha'i
life, is that any less important? Is it not the point to live a spiritual
life. We call that path different things but it is the same good, pure,
service oriented way of life, right?
All i know is that for a moment there i felt like an outsider. It was
almost like the minister was implying the Christian life is the life. I
don't mean to go on about this, i mean it did not disturb me or anything
like that. It just gave me an insight. If i feel uncomfortable and i know
my friend and her mother felt very uncomfortable at this point, maybe i
should note this and be sensitive to the feelings of friends of the
faith.
It brought to mind this discussion about the term non-Baha'i. Negative
terms of expression even if they are not meant in a negative sense can be
interpreted to have negative connotations. If you are non-something, you
are out, not included, different from the something. As mentioned before,
this has the potential to create exclusivist thinking and an in group /
out group attitude which in conflict theory is the beginning of possible
intergroup conflict "They are different from us, so ..."
Also, when you think about it, if this gives the message that "they are
different from us..." this leads to the question "Do i want to be a part
of this or not?" where as if we make our friends feel as they are a part
of our group and not an outsider, the thought will be different. THis is
my concern with such terms that begin with non-. Am i reading too much
into all this? Maybe!
Regards,
Cheshmak Farhoumand
=END=
Date: 22 Jan 96 22:42:22 U
From: "Dan Orey"
Subject: Re: Firesides
To: asadighi@ptialaska.net, talisman@indiana.edu
Reply to: RE>Firesides
Arsalen, good question - I have found it best to forget the formal (as in every
friday nite) fireside for the informal one that occurs when I am doing
something, especially on a volunteer basis. Some sort of personal service
project that causes me to rub up against a lot of folks I might not normally
meet... a soup kitchen, interfaith, AIDS foundation sort of things are ways
that I have met folks when I'm new or in need of making new contacts... just
some thoughts. - Daniel ( where's the Battista from...its great!)
=END=
From: Dave10018@aol.com
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 02:18:05 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu, DAVEJORDAN@aol.com
Subject: Dave Taylor's Website:Paintings!
View some images of my artworks at:
http://www.xenonarts.com/artists/dtaylor/dtaylor1.html
Reproductions are only reproductions, folks, not the real thing, but here at
least are some images to give you an idea of what my paintings are like, sort
of.
My website has images of five paintings and one large drawing.(sorry,
dimensions not included at present.The drawing is 42"x58," "Hat,Heart,Hands"
is 52"x46", "Her Saxophone" is 62"x54". "Desktop" is 50"x60", "Talking"
is48"x60" and Untitled is 56"x48")
If you click on any of the small images you get a larger and clearer version
of it.
Also you can see a short statement describing my work. Then, after you view
the images, you can leave me an email and let me know what you think.(or, if
you prefer, you can slink away in silence.)
take a look!
Bargain Basement Heraclitus
Grabs a brush and goes to town
Where he finds intense delight as
All the world's a mirror, upside-down!
dave taylor
=END=
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 96 00:02 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: I am the Walrus?
Dear self-pinching Derek:
Between ourselves, and away from the prying eyes of Talisman, I concur that
this is a tragic story! Immoral economists? Shocking! This is obviously
our next "Most Irrational Issue" and I will prepare a hotly worded essay to
the American Baha'i about this, with smudgy carbons to all the Counsellors
(especially the new ones) and the new Aux.Board Members for Protection. Are
you sure they didn't mean immoral ecologists? Proctologists? No wonder our
enrollments are down in the USA. Do you ever hear of Entry by Economists?
Of course not! Maybe in third world countries, or emerging nations, or amid
some tribal cultures where economists are considered in communication with
obscure psychographic spirits, but not here in the cradle of the
administration, the swadling clothes of consultation, the basinette of
backchat, the perambulator of positivism, the nurturing nexus of
Neoplatonism, the cry room of complaints, and the wet nurse of nay saying.
I think we need to have a far more open attitude towards economists, after
all the jury is still out on exactly what causes them to even be attracted
to so boring a topic --(no offense, its just that I have never been
attracted to economics, although I don't judge those who are. We all have
our tests and I don't know how I would have reacted had I either been born
interested in that topic or acquired a taste for it). Not all economists
are immoral, although there is certainly historic reasons to think so -- all
stereotypes have a germ of truth than can be highly contagious -- the Baha'i
community must, if we are to attract the millions upon millions of outcast
economists, be willing to embrace them, charts and graphs and all. There is
really nothing definative in the Aqdas stipulating penalties for economists,
unless they marry their father's wives.
As for you being a shrimp, Juan being a whale, and me being a walrus...well,
I think our friend in the Netherlands has taken a
Sen-ta- Mental Journey to the sea of metaphoric folly, and this business of
Roger calling Linda "snookums" and raving about her so-called tender heart
when we all know she is tough as nails and can bite through masonite as if
it were bean sprouts has me more mystified than the concept of natural law.
If there was such a thing as natural law, animals would have the right to
vote. Or at least attend Natl. Convention. Speaking of animals, don't ya
love the way the Baha'i Youth are trotted out like trained monkeys to
perform at events but seldom empowered and encouraged to deliver the message
of Baha'u'llah to their own age group in a consistent and intensive manner?
Well, I must go to the planning meeting of BED -- Baha'i Economist
Defenders, the new group petitioning the World Centre to start printing
International Currency *now* -- we are submitting designs for the new 9
Dollar Bill Spiritual Reserve Note (indirect teaching at its most practical!)
Your friend under assault,
Burl
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Bookstacks, Ltd.
*******************************************************
=END=
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 00:07:11 -0800
From: nabfares@ix.netcom.com (Azadeh Mohandessi-Fares & Nabil Fares )
Subject: Re: Surah Hashr
To: lua@sover.net (LuAnne Hightower)
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: riazati@bwc.org
Allah'o'Abha LuAnne,
Thank you for giving me an opportunity to reply to your question.
According to my understanding -as an Arabic reader and writer- that the
correct writing of the holy verse you mentioned is:
lah'ul asma 'ul husna yusabahu lah wama Fils'samawati wal ard, wahowa
al aziz al hakim.
In the Arabic text of the Quran, this "WAW" in particular, is printed
in smaller print, compared to the rest of the text. The reason for that
is to indicate to the reader the letters which were omitted in the
Othman Ibn Afaan' Collection of the Quran, but should be pronounced and
uttered. The pepole in the field of A'rab, used to distinguish these
letters by writing it in red. For a commercial printer this became a
very involved and tedious operation, which inhibited the mass
production of the Quran. So the way around this was to print these
letters in a smaller print compared to the rest of Quran text. Again
these letters are to be pronounced as part of the word. Some other
examples of these are as in Daod-Daoud, Kitab-Alkitab, yalwn-yalwoon,
(to bend something). These letters till today are refered to as the
"Red" letters (it used to be in red ink).
Also if this Red letter is above another letter, the word is pronounced
using the small print letter not the original.
Example: Al'Salat, printed Al'Salwt. There is a red letter "alif"
above the Waw. The "alif' is pronounced instead of the "waw". Also
Meshkat (lamp), Tourah, and other words.
Now, if the Red letter is under the original letter, the word is
pronounced with the original letter not the Red letter.
Example: Yabst (the S sound here should be an S with a dot below it.
"SAD". The letter "SAD" has a Red letter "SIN", so the word is spelled
with a "SAD" but pronounced with a "SIN".
I hope that I rendered a service. I took the liberty and did cc. Mr.
Habib Riazati to verify the correctness of the information I am sharing
with you.
In service to Baha'u'llah
nabil fares
sacramento
You wrote:
>
>Allah-u-Abha, friends.
>
>HELP! My Alim transliteration device is not cooperating. Can anyone
tell
>me whether in ayat 24 of Surah Hashr the correct wording is:
>
>
>la hul asma 'ul husna yusabahu lahuma WA samawati wal ard
>
> OR
>
>FIS samawati wal ard??
>
>I've been doing FIS and have been told it's WA.
>
>Whoever responds first with the correct answer gets a complimentary
cup of
>something at the Bosch cafe during the Mysticism Conference
(compliments of
>me, and you must be in attendance - no rain checks).
>
>
>Gratefully yours,
>LuAnne
>
>
=END=
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 02:12:21 -0700
To: Juan R Cole
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: Re: farmers and intellectuals?
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Juan:
I don't "deny" the existence of a "distinct social stratum of
intellectuals (according to your definition) " or the obvious prejudice
against them. Yes; totalitarian and authoritarian political and religious
institutions throughout history have consolidated their power by silencing
or exterminating intellectuals and critical thinkers (including some damned
fine cartoonist and satirists). Yes; I'm familiar with the spirit and
intent of Spiro Agnew's infamous harrangues about intellectuals. Yes; I am
aware that there has been and still is a "a strong current of
anti-intellectualism in the popular culture of North America that is
currently being tapped into by "populist" politicians with whom, I could
easily infer in view of the context in which "populist" is being currently
used and the individuals to which the term is being applied, you are
flippantly identifying me but I didn't interpret your words that way.
I was merely questioning the necessity of employing the same
discursive tactics, the same language of dissent and the same categorization
of people, (all of which are part of the same "status-quo" (present state
of affairs) we are attempting to alter) within the context of Baha'i
consultation.
There's a clear distinction between "Misusing" a word, and "not
using it as a social scientist uses it". You described two approaches to
defining the category "intellectual", within the social sciences and stated
that you prefered one over the other. I'm not a social scientist. I would
describe someone "whose discourse of critical reason constantly calls into
question statements based on authority rather than reasoning" and who
continually "questions and probes the status quo, ever seeking
improvements," As an individual with a very well developed intellect who
does just that; as well as a blessing to any community; that's a little
harder to anti. To me, calling such a person an "intellectual" is like
calling an athelete a "physical". I am only an anti-intellectual insofar as
I dislike the label - Fair enough?
LBG's
Gord.
**********************************************************
To wear a shirt that's relatively clean,
you never have to launder off the dirt
as long as you have two to choose between
and always change into the relatively cleaner shirt.
(Piet Hein on party politics)
***********************************************************---
Gordon McFarlane e-mail: MCFARLANE@upanet.uleth.ca
919 11th Street South
Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada
T1J 2P7
403-327-2987
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 96 23:40:24 PST
Subject: RE: Re sex and values
To: talisman@indiana.edu, Jackson Armstrong-Ingram
This was the strongest and most complete argument against the Bahai
position on homosexuality I have yet read.
Moreover, it seems to be a very solid attack on the basic claim that
Bahai represents a new unifying religion.
As Derek Jacoby said in Dead Again, I can't wait to see what happens
next.
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/22/96
Time: 23:40:25
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 96 23:58:42 PST
Subject: RE: Firesides
To: talisman@indiana.edu, "Arsalan J. Sadighi"
On Mon, 22 Jan 1996 12:54:58 -0900 Arsalan J. Sadighi wrote:
>Friends,
>
>Considering the fact that my questions are routinely ignored by
most, I see
>fit to continue with my unwanted beahvior.
>
>My question has to do with how to attract seekers to firesides and
what
>topics to present. The well has gone dry in my neck of the woods,
see? I am
>sure there must be some deep thinkers who have considered this
question and
>would not mind sharing it with this servant.
>Arsalan J. Sadighi
>P.O. Box 23076
>Juneau, AK 99802-3076
>(907) 463-4668 Residence
>(907) 465-5776 Business
>(907) 463-4648 Residential Fax
>(907) 465-3450 Business Fax
>
> "Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
> that is clearly none of your business!" Battista
>
>
My firesides tended to be like deepenings. But the most popular one I
did was to go through the Seven Valleys a valley at a time. I made
handouts for each one. I had my guests divide into groups of three
and read the section a paragraph at a time and decide what they
thought each paragraph meant. Then I asked them to re-assemble and
discuss what they'd read. I only did the first four valleys -- and
even then I would have rather only done the first three. The first
three are all I know from my own experience and beyond that it is all
hypothetical to me, like reading science fiction.
But a good time was had by all.
Sincerely Yours,
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/22/96
Time: 23:58:43
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 96 23:51:07 PST
Subject: FW: Re: Forgiveness and cut-offs
To: talisman@indiana.edu
On Mon, 22 Jan 1996 12:58:56 -0900 Arsalan J. Sadighi wrote:
>
>
>Dear Mr. Belove,
>I don't understand this. Would you shed some additional light on
this statement.
>
>A.J.
>
>>One is that, in the name of Unity, the Baha'i Faith seems to
>>ex-communicate people.
>>
>>Is ex-communication an acceptable strategy in private life?
>>
>>
>>
>>Philip
>>
>Arsalan J. Sadighi
>
>
> "Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
> that is clearly none of your business!" Battista
>
>
Dear Arsalan,
Thank you for your question. And by the way, I love your signature
quote. It reminds me of a quote from Pascal: "Men never rush to do
harm so gleefully as when they do it in the Name of God." Who is
Battista?
But to your question.
By "ex-communicate" I refer to the matter of practice, if not policy,
towards covenant breakers.
The practice seems to extend to their writings.
This, I believe is the same as the policy of "ex-communication." The
question I raise is whether we also believe that, there are times
when we privately decided never to speak to, associate with,
communicate with, people who once were friends, or with people who
are relatives.
Of course the issue is complex for me and this summary doesn't do it
justice but I hope I've answered your questions. Without a context,
it is difficult for me to say more.
Sincerely yours
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/22/96
Time: 23:51:08
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: Dave10018@aol.com
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 08:14:36 -0500
To: Dave10018@aol.com, dan_orey@qmbridge.ccs.csus.edu, talisman@indiana.edu,
mfoster@tyrolnet.com
Subject: Re: Homosexuality/Conscience
Hello again!
The header on this message was confusing. I just want to clarify. The message
I was replying to was from Mark Foster. The header made it look like it was
from Dan Orey, though the style and sentiment are much more like Mark Foster,
who wrote it. The confusing attribution to Dan came about because I lost the
original message from Mark and Dan Orey graciously resent it to me.
dave taylor
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 08:36:03 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: natural law
To Juan and Sen:
First, a thousand pardons if there was some misunderstanding regarding
democratic ideals and procedural issues. But I think we need to clearly
seperate what the Master was saying to a West Asian reader and what we have
been given in the Administrative Order.
It isn't that there aren't mechanisms within our democracy that are not
suitable for use. I may have given the wrong impression here but what I meant
to say is that the Writings are more concerned with what can be labeled First
Principals than with procedural processes.
And I don't believe I ever said anything against the concept of the rule of
law. This concept has little to do with the development of legal positivism.
Who here has been actually advocating Absolutism? It sure isn't me.
And the main issue with problems within the institutions _is_ a matter of
spiritual maturity. And it is this attitude of "Oh well we can't do anything
about that!" that is the same attitude Juan that fueled the decision of
Plessy v Ferguson (1895) and the majority decision written by Justice Brown.
Yes we can do something about a lack of spiritual maturity. What you assume
is that I meant that we would pry into each and every assembly member's
spiritual life with a pack of tools to tweek them this way and that. Of
ocurse we wouldn't do that!
And I have repeatedly said - including in the last post - that we _do_ need
what you term reform and what I would refer to as institutional maturity i.e.
the expansion and *deepening* of the Administrative Order itself. But this
comes with time - and what would be the point if the heart of the intitutions
- human beings, were still, as a whole, spiritually ill-equipped to deal with
Reality?
You can't think that Baha'u'llah suffered His entire life, and the Master
too, to simply bring a more glorified version of the American judicial system
to the world.
When you take a look back at what Plato had struggled for and what the prayer
of Jesus begs for - which is heaven on earth, where justice rules in the
*heart* of Man - this is what we are struggling for is it not? Is this not
what the best beloved is in the sight of God?
Of course there needs to be safeguards incorporated into the Ad. Order. But
to insist on all this now is to still, I believe, put the cart before the
horse. With all the incredible laws and regualtions that the U.S. has we
still cannot stem the tide of hatred and prejudice and spiritual disease. All
the procedural protections in the world can't keep a preudiced judge from
sending a black man to the gas chamber.
So why, working with the same materials (humans and procedural *reforms*)
would you think we as Baha'is could possibly do any better? The _only_ thing
we have is the avenue to true spiritual maturity - to bringing about heaven
in the hearts of ourselves and our fellow humans.
And briefly. Sen natural law in the Writings. You are correct of course. But
historically at the time these were written that was the in vogue term used
in the scientific community in ref. to the physical world. By this time the
philosphical term natural law had essentially been replaced by human rights.
More on this later.
Juan. Chiding? Dear brother what do you think most of your posts are? Except
that they are primarily directed at the American institutitons and those that
currently sit on them? This list has been your personal soapbox for a long
time. If you won't be the pot I won't be the kettle, ok?
And the last thing this list or country needs is another *deepening* on
Advent of Divine Justice.
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 09:09:00 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Homosexuality
Well, legitimizing homosexual marriage would probably solve our teaching
problems in the US. It would undoubtedly also improve feasts.
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 96 22:35:04 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg"
To: Juan R Cole , friberg@will.brl.ntt.jp
Cc: Gordon McFarlane , talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: farmers and intellectuals?
Dear Juan:
Your definition of an intellectual is quite different than that in my New
World Dictionary, which gives:
1. a person with intellectual interests
2. a person engaged in intellectual work
3. a member of the intelligentsia
It defines intelligentsia as "the people regarded as, or regarding themselves
as, the educated and enlightened class."
I think the above definitions are much more commonly accepted than
yours, or at least your second one. As you well know, throughout the
ages, the intelligentsia has primarily been a creature of the elite,
be it the imperial throne in China, the absolutist king in the
emerging European nation states, the dictatorship in the communists
states, or the bourgeoisie in modern democratic countries. While it
is true that there is such a thing as a worker-intellectual -- I'm
proud to say that my dad considered himself one -- in main,
intellectuals have tended to concentrate where the power is (or might
be).
I found Charles Cooper's remarks concerning whether or not the
government funded broadcasting services were liberal or not to
be entirely apropo. Paraphrasing him a bit wildly, he said that they
were not liberal, rather they represented the thinking of the
American elite. This, to me, nicely capsulizes how I see much
of the intellectual debate (including mine) on Talisman. Not
Baha'i, but representative of current American thought. This is
why I want to hear much more from Nima and others with differing
intellectual pespectives -- to break out of this impasse.
My experience with much of the American intelligentsia is that they to
tend to pose as radicals bucking the system, or as you say:
. . . constantly call(ing) into question statements based on authority
rather than reasoning. Intellectuals question and probe the status
quo, ever seeking improvements in it.
I think that most intellectuals, regardless of how they regard
themselves, are in support of some status quo. Where, in fact,
do they get their ideas if it is not from some status quo somewhere?
In this forum, we see discussion that is informed very strongly
by current debates in American political and intellectual circles.
For example, the attack on the establishment in Washington, a
prominent feature in American politics for the last 15 years, is
mirrored in Talisman by attacks on Wilmette and Haifa. The
American infatuation with its legal system too has its Talismanian
counterpart. The struggle and confusion about what is acceptable
sexually, so typical of the modern American milieu, is our hottest
ticket. And the range of opinions varies little from the already
well-known points of view.
When applied to the Faith, these viewpoints have predictable results:
basically, people invoke the standard, well-worn arguments everyone
is so familiar with and apply them to the Faith. Now, I suppose you
could say that this is "intellectuals calling into question the
status quo". This is a nice, heroic stance. But it looks more
like the "status quo calling into question the Faith" to me.
Now, don't get me wrong! I think this questioning and discussing
and trying to correlate Baha'i ideas with the current thinking of
society is a good thing. And I think that trying to draw ideas from
society and to use them to view things, even the Faith, from a
different perspective is a good thing.
But, lets not kid ourselves into thinking that this is all there
is to being a *Baha'i* intellectual! It is just beginning steps!!
Fortunately, we have enough intellectual firepower on Talisman,
and enough controversy, so that we are forced to constantly rethink
our intellectual positions and not fall into a rut. We still are
a moving target, I hope.
Yours respectfully,
Stephen Friberg
P.S. To me, the older Baha'i intelligentsia, a product of much
different times, are much more radical and in keeping with the
definition of intellectuals as you define it. We are, I think,
much too much a creation of our comfortable, non-demanding circumstances
to have had to question deeply the rightness of the established order.
=END=
From: Dave10018@aol.com
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 09:14:12 -0500
To: belove@sover.net, talisman@indiana.edu, jarmstro@sun1.iusb.edu
Subject: Re: Re sex and values
In a message dated 96-01-23 06:35:09 EST, belove@sover.net writes:
>
>This was the strongest and most complete argument against the Bahai
>position on homosexuality I have yet read.
>
>
I thought Jackson's post magnificent but I don't see it as an attack on "the
Baha'i position." Correct me if I'm wrong, Jackson, but I thought that you
took no position on the prohibitions in the Aqdas. What you critiqued so
effectively was the notion that these prohibitions could be explained or
justified by making reference to "family values" as if such "values" were
static and invarient from culture to culture. They are neither static nor
invarient, even in the cultures we arrogantly think of ourselves as familiar
with.
Since cultures are not static, and since we are moving, whether we like it or
not, indeed, whether the Baha'i Faith grows or not, to some kind of big
crunch in which all the peoples of the earth are in contact with one another
and coming to share enough common assumptions as to feel they live in the
same world, some common standard will emerge. But we had better stop
treating these questions as if they are obvious and self-evident.
Morality is involved, but it is not simple or obvious. Justice and compassion
are involved, but they are not simple and obvious either. I personally am
happy to be living in this chaotic and creative time.
david taylor
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 12:05:23 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Fwd: Dialogue Decalogue
Just for the interest and information of the Talismaniacs.
Tony
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: Roxanne.Lalonde@UAlberta.CA (Roxanne Lalonde)
To: coleman@olimp.irb.hr, edlang@ccnet.com, TIRANDAZ@cismsun.univ-lyon1.fr,
100623.1614@COMPUSERVE.COM
CC: andrew.pemberton-pigott@UAlberta.CA, raynord@blackgold.ab.ca,
aw515@FreeNet.Carleton.CA, jjensen@welchlink.welch.jhu.edu,
mocquais@max.cc.uregina.ca, rmoqbel@asthma.med.ualberta.ca, sbedin@gov.nt.ca,
drama9@travel-net.com, Member1700@aol.com, mfoster@tyrell.net,
cbuck@ccs.carleton.ca
Date: 96-01-23 11:46:04 EST
P.S. Pre- (as opposed to post-) script: I decided at the last minute to cc
this message to a number of people who I think might be interested.
-------
Gentlemen,
Allah'u'Abha! Lawren's posting of Len's Dialogue Decalogue essay
with its "commandments" led to some ponderings on my part in terms of
Baha'i participation on G-Ethic and other non-Baha'i internet discussion
lists. I found myself reading and nodding my head as I proceeded through
each commandment until I came to this:
> FIFTH COMMANDMENT: _Each participant must define himself_.
> Only the Jew, for example, can define what it means to be a
> Jew. The rest can only describe what it looks like from the
> outside.... Thus
> it is mandatory that each dialogue partner define what it means
> to be an authentic member of his own tradition.
> _Conversely---the one interpreted must be able to recognize
> herself in the interpretation_. This is the golden rule of
> interreligious hermeneutics....
I suspect that this is the fundamental problem that many participants on
G-Ethic and in other realms of interreligious dialogue with Baha'is have
when progressive revelation comes into the discussion. How can we as
Baha'is faithfully present our understanding of progressive revelation
without offering our understanding of the placement of other religions
within the history of divine revelation? I realize that this isn't
technically a violation of Len's fifth commandment, but it is certainly
highly problematic for Western Buddhists like Bruce B. and Lawren. Judy
has also raised this issue in our off-list dialogue (BTW, Farhan, she wrote
a brief note to me saying she will respond to my latest letter but is very
busy at the moment.), challenging me to defend the Baha'i "appropriation"
(her word) of other religions to fit the notion of progressive revelation.
I responded to her challenge as follows:
Judy:
>This leads to my third point: what the Baha'i faith does is to "appropriate"
>all world religions and read them with the lens of its own understanding.
Roxanne:
"Is this statement directed at Baha'u'llah or at Baha'is in general? If
the latter, Baha'is are only expressing the divine knowledge that has been
revealed to them through their understanding of the latest revelation of it
in this dispensation. If the former, well, I'm not sure that I would use
that kind of language when referring to a Messenger of God, but you
obviously feel very strongly about this, so I'll respond to you as you have
expressed yourself. If Baha'u'llah were a mere human being like you or I,
I think we could make a charge of the type you have here. If, however, He
is who He says He is, the latest but not the last in a long line of divine
Teachers who have been sent by God to teach humanity how to recognize and
to worship our Creator, then He is _reinforcing_, not appropriating, the
messages of all those other divine Messengers who preceded Him. And it is
his life and his legacy that we must examine. He was a great deal more
than a mere human being. He was, like Jesus and Muhammad and Moses and all
the others, an appointed and designated Messenger from God."
Like many of my usually long-winded responses to Judy's
questions/criticisms, she ignored this one. I'm not sure if that's because
she accepts my point or doesn't feel inspired to challenge it or what.
Back to Len's commandment. Now, I wouldn't dream of trying to tell
someone of another Faith what it means to be a member of that Faith, but if
the history of religion or the progressive nature of divine revelation
entered the discussion, I would feel compelled to share my understanding of
the Baha'i writings. How do I express this notion to someone whose
perception of the theology of their own religion is incomplete or misguided
or antiquated or literal or all of the above from my perspective as a
Baha'i? This isn't a judgment, but rather an interpretation based on my
knowledge of what I believe is the most complete way of looking at religion
from the one and only divine source. But to someone else, it could sound
judgemental, violating one of Len's other commandments. Of course, I would
never use any of those words explicitly, but my dialogue partner might
infer from my comments that that is how I feel.
Farhan, I think your idea of establishing an internet observatoire
for Baha'is participating in interreligious dialogue on the 'net is an
excellent one, and we may have the beginnings of just such a group among
the few of us here. We are all learning how to communicate in this medium,
which is profoundly different from other, more conventional forms of
communication, thus making the "teaching" process different. Our
collective experience with Bruce B. is an excellent example of (1) the
challenges that can be brought forward in public fora that aren't
necessarily as cosy as we might like or are used to; (2) the potential for
some of us to "lose our cool" in the face of such challenges; (3) the value
of consultation and loving thoughts in responding to such challenges; and
(4) the recognition that sometimes it's wiser to remain silent on the
internet, whereas in face-to-face communication such a reaction would be
rude (in other words, we need not feel compelled to respond (publicly or
privately) to everything that is posted on a discussion list).
I'm not expecting any of you to offer me a guidebook on how to
approach any of the issues I've raised here; I'm just looking for feedback
and reflections on this issue and how it relates to our behaviour as
Baha'is on G-Ethic and other internet lists.
Warmest Baha'i regards,
Roxanne
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 12:12:14 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: (mer)Maids , Law and Modernity
Dear All ,
Ah ! that dear soul Mr. Mc Glinn has found me out . It's true, I have
been a long time on the sea (MostGreat Ocean ) in search of the ancient
mariner (or is it Holy Mariner). And in the course of that sun drenched
voyage I have come to see (mer) maids under every wave. Some people think it
is turtles all the up and all the way down . I on the other hand know better
. It is maids (huri ) all the up and all the way down - down into the depths
of the Siyah Chal ; up into the soaring heights of Ridvan . In the best
Quranic sense of "paradise" truly I will die a happy *man * . :)
The dialogue on natural law , natural rights and legal positivism and
leaves me at a loss as i know litttle about the meaning of those terms . I
would however appreciate a technical description of what these concepts refer
to .
Many years ago I sugggested to my friends that *if * the Bahai's ever
truly engage the modern world we will be ctitized from two directions 1) from
the secular left because of our espousal of the existence of a notion so
quaint as Divine Revelation, 2) from the religious fundamentalists for the
same reason- in their case because of the assertion it has not ended. I
still think this will be the case .
When I made this argument I asumed that Bahais would not simply re-cast
our religion as more of the same asserting truth claims that outtrump and
invalidate all others and which *collapse * the world into a box of our own
making . This is the fundamentalist response. I think it is the form of self
-understanding in religion ,or perhaps just about anything else for that
matter, in human history. That we would do it is not all that surprising ; it
is what we were given by our cultures and I do mean ALL cultures . I have
found no substantial evidence that there exists a *culture* immune from this
sense of triumphal exclusivity.
At the same time we can become so enamored with the friuts of modernity -
that we become as children in the proverbial candy store of human diversity .
I think it gets called multi-culturalism in some circles . I tend to agree
with the philosopher and African _American studies professor , Cornell West ,
that the goal is to move beyond Euro-centrism (or any centrism) and
Multiculturalism .
The means of doing this he suggests and I agree, is to take the
implicit claims to universality found in the prophetic tradition of religion
and "critique" the world as well as hold up an alternative standard. For
myself at least this involves an acknowledgement of the existence of divine
revelation however concieved . To secularists this creates problems just as
it does for fundamentalists . I would hope we could avoid both poles of this
spectrum . I see nothing conradictory in asserting a Transcenent source , a
Spirit unfolding in evolution, and the vast diversity of human resposes to
this Spirit in our attempts to understand its working . Perhaps we are back
to Wittgenstein and language games .
So many of the conversations that seem to move past one another revolve
on that . We are speaking from various "standpoints" . the goal is not to
conflate all standpoints into one common one. I am rminded of Bahau lah's
remarks in Seven Valleys about the many colored globes and his comment in ESW
that "all see me through their own colors" . Interestingly He says that the
focus on the "place of appearances" is the source of conflict. He goes on to
say that some gaze on the many colord objects , some "gaze upon the
effulgence of the light" and that some "have drunk of the wine of onenss" .
" Thus , for that they move on these three different planes, the
understanding and the words of the wayfarers have differed ; and hence the
sign of conflict doth continually appear on earth ." SV - Valley of Unity
-
I find this description and its linkage to conflict utterly remarkable.
When I combine this with His staements in ESW about the "essence " of
religion in this day involves the end of conflict with respect to the
"diverse communions of the earth" there is something new going on here . We
are on the "Threshold of a Dream" as the Moody Blues might say . Perhaps it
is the Spirit , finally unfolding a Universal Language( of Spirit) which
contextualizes without eliminating these varoius planes or stations. It is
most decidedly a non fundamentalist response and most decidedly a non secular
response in that it nests all these stations in Spirit . Maybe this is our
struggle on Talisman and elsewhere to learn this Universal language. To find
a way to express a recognition of Revelation - uplold its claim and Bahau
llah does make this embarrassing claim to the station of Prophethood ,
embarrassing in a secular context . Yet He most decidedly does not make it in
a triumphalist sense or exclusivist sense .
This past week in the adult class I am conducting one of the
particiapnts ,as we got to this stage of the discussion, was able to express
one of the "dirty secrets" which is or has been off limits for Bahais . He
touched a nerve with virtually everybody in the room by saying in a joking
but serious manner " Hi my nane is Gary and I think Bahau llah is better " .
What he acknowledged was a belief in Bahau llah and the discomfort with
understanding Bahau llah in a fundamentalist sense . He admitted to
struggling with this and that it prevented him from teaching . Why? because
he felt something was wrong but he did not know how to put his own words to
language.
I would suggest based on my experience in this community and others in my
24 years as a Bahai that the dead in the water nature of much of our life is
tied to this phenomenon . The friends are struggling to make sense of - and
I mean struggling like crazy - to make sense of Bahau lah that does not fall
into the fundamentalist trap or that reduces Him to another reasonably
bright philosopher - the secular trap, flatland ontology. Unfortunately most
of what passes for Bahai dialogue in my experience revolves around these two
poles and does not liberate the potential of the friends and does not attract
new believers . The questions we ask and the answers we give sound to much
like pouring old wine into new wineskins . We simple have not "faced up to
modernity" as Peter Berger would say and because we have not faced up to it
we cannot truly engage it and move beyond it . There are I believe profound
structural and spiritual principles of the revelation of Bahau llah which
will heal; and overcome the negatives of modernity and allow us to move
beyond modernity . I am just as convinced that means we have to stop seeing
Bahau llah as a sociological opponent of "modernity" and wish for some
re-newed version of a traditional society. I see this constantly and I see
the pain and turmoil that it causes in people like my friend Gary this Sunday
.
The net result is we ask the wrong questions , come up not with the
"wrong" answers but worse irrelevent answers. , answers which do not address
where people live and which make sense of their experience and in turn do not
provide the means to create new experiences of what it means to be human and
how to live in accord with that meaning and help others to do the same .
So back to the sea to look for more (mer) Maidens. And when i stop off
at the Siyah Chal I'll be sure to say hi . :)
warm regards ,
Terry
=END=
Date: 23 Jan 96 12:05:05 EST
From: sabredance <100725.315@compuserve.com>
To: talisman
Subject: leaving
dear talismanians,
after almost a year of talisman, i think it is now time for me to leave and be
busy with other things. Not that I have been actively busy lately here on this
forum.
I am sure I will see many of you in other lists as well.
I wish all of you the best.
janine van rooij
amsterdam, the netherlands
=END=
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 12:08:20 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Re: Re sex and values
Dear Jackson and All,
I think understanding how different cultures view sex and
values is extremely important and your post was very
informative.
Baha'u'llah seems to have some definite ideas about
family - yes, some can be traced to the culture among
which He appeared, but, it seems to me, that God has
elevated some of those practices to optimum values
towards which all humanity must strive.
My thoughts will probably be dismissed as exclusionary.
regards,
sAmAn
=END=
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 13:02:17 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: Alex Tavangar
Subject: Re: Homosexuality
At 09:09 AM 1/23/96 -0500, John wrote:
>Well, legitimizing homosexual marriage would probably solve our teaching
>problems in the US. It would undoubtedly also improve feasts.
>
>john walbridge
>
What will this seemingly easy ruling do to the progress of the Baha'i Faith
throughout the rest of the world? What vails might it create that will
seriously hinder the spiritual transformation of the planet? As important
as this issue is, there are other maladies that are choking the simplest
forms of life on our planet. Ailments that must be dealt with much care,
skill and planning.
Even God must prioritize.
Alex B. Tavangar
=END=
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 09:11:29 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu, Doug_Moore@admin.state.ak.us,
Mark_Insteness@dot.state.ak.us
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: US AND THEM
It used to be native Baha'is and non-native Baha'is; Afro-American Baha'is
and non-Afro-American Baha'is; Persian Baha'is and American Baha'is; now it
is gay and straight Baha'is; intellectual Baha'is and those who can NOT
'combine their deep love to Baha'u'llah (with all its consequences) with the
active use of their mind, reason, and intellect.'
What is becoming very obvious to me is that we have not yet understood what
unity is all about. Is it going to be 'us and them' forever? Then again, I
am no intellectual. What do I know?
STOP THE INSANITY!
Arsalan
FIONA WROTE:
> Maybe there are SOME Baha'is who think an academic discussion is not
necessary (after
>all, everything is said in the Writings, right...?), but I suppose this is only
>because they cannot imagine the new generation of (Baha'i) academics who can
>combine their deep love to Baha'u'llah (with all its consequences) with the
>active use of their mind, reason, and intellect. I am not saying that we are
>this new generation but I really hope we are on our way to this goal.
>
>Fiona Missaghian
>
>P.S. Maybe some of the people on Talisman remember me: last year I searched for
>support for my Thesis on Baha'i Ethics. Well, the University of Southern
>California conferred the degree of the Master of Arts on me and now I am
back in
>Germany working on my dissertation.
>
>
>
Arsalan J. Sadighi
"Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
that is clearly none of your business!" Battista
=END=
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 16:06:26 +0000 (GMT)
From: Robert Parry
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Perversions? (fwd)
received this today from a conciousness discussion group i`m in. it
seemed relevant to the discussion on homosexuality.
robert parry
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 06:58:47 -0800
From: Dr. David A. Johnson
To: Multiple recipients of list BRIDGE-L
Subject: Re: Perversions?
On Sunday, Ingrid wrote:
>Medical science has shown that
>homosexuality can be traced to physical, genetic and/or very early
>childhood environmental factors. We are responsible for neither.
>It makes about as much sense to bash gays as it does to tell a
>heterosexual individual that he or she must suddenly forget about
>being attracted to members of the opposite sex and start being
>turned on by members of the same sex!
As a neuroscientist, I would just like to caution that the evidence
for physical differences in the brains of homosexuals is by no means
conclusive. The genetic data is also equivocal.
However, in a general way I would agree with the sentiment. That is,
behaviors (including sexual behaviors) are dependent on the anatomy and
physiology of the central and peripheral nervous systems, and how these
nervous system interact with other organ systems.
To move the discussion away from the "hot potato" of homosexuality,
there are several interesting assumptions in Ingrid's comments.
In a general way, DOES PHYSICAL STATUS EXCUSE PERCEIVED "IMMORAL"
BEHAVIOR? As an example, within the Judeo/Christian tradition,
marital infidelity is immoral. There are at least two "prime directives"
against it, the commandment prohibiting adultery (VII), and the one
prohibiting lying (IX). However, much marital infidelity is related
to normal neuroendocrine function. If an individual cheats on their
spouse because of "raging hormones" and raging hormones are a
normal function, can the individual be judged to be immoral?
To extend the question farther, since behavior is component of
anatomy and physiology, can spiritual standards be applied to any
behavior?
David A. Johnson
=END=
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 96 13:41:30 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: homosexuality again
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Richard, I suppose that Derek the Dean of the Shrimp School of Economics
and Waldo the Walrus Barer's postings have disabused you of any ideas about my
being "tender hearted." You probably are more correct than they on this
matter. However, I just want to make sure that you know that tender hearts
don't necessarily go hand in hand with soft heads.
I too have principles. One of them being that I feel that my affiliation with
the Baha'i Faith requires that I be as open and loving with others as possible.
I go the extra mile to try to understand people who are from different
backgrounds from myself. I am not speaking out for reconsideration of the
issue of homosexuality because it is the right thinking modern thing to do.
Indeed, you will not find me sounding very liberal when it comes to a number of
other issues. However, I cannot dismiss scientific findings on homosexuality
as easily as others can. Nor can I discount the voices of people who are
homosexuals or transsexuals, or whatever who are obviously trying to live a
good and holy life but whose sexual life does not quite match my own. If this
is being, unprinciples, then so be it. Actually, the way you stated your
argument sounded very much like a Larry Kohlberg sort of moral dilemma. Things
either are or aren't. I flunked his test because I can see other options than
his proper moralists could. I also think that since we live in a world that
has such variation and is so complex, that we need to find ways to solve
problems in ways that are helpful, not harmful, to groups of people.
Baha'u'llah obviously did not like dictators. While there are
relatively few dictators in the world (in terms of overall population), we
might not consider them a group. However, there are plenty of people who have
dictatorial tendencies and who obviously love to command others to do things
and to usurp power for themselves. These people do pose a problem for Baha'i
communities. They can alienate people coming into the faith. They can put a
damper on consultation. They can be so bullheaded about their pet ideas that
they can be a true embarassment to the Faith. But do we single them out and
say that they need to go through therapy and completely change in a fundamental
way before they can be accepted as Baha'is. I daresay that homosexuals don't
cause nearly the "embarassment" to the community that authoritarian types do,
yet it is homosexuals that have such terrible diatribes written against them.
I thank Jackson for taking the time to post his interesting statement on
variations in family life and sexual behavior. While I agree Dave that he is
not attacking the Aqdas's position, he is making it clear that the world is not
divided neatly into our categories of heterosexual and homosexual. Baha'u'llah
was a Prophet of God - not an anthropologist or a cataloguer of cultural
traits. I believe that he wanted us to be chaste. But if the Baha'i Faith is
going to be truly universal, we do need to be open to a whole world of
differences. Otherwise, we will just be a very narrow little cult.
One more quick item - I must temper my comments about the goodness of Talisman.
It seems that it has induced Luanne to make puns. I hope it does not induce
premature labor.
BTW, Lora, I don't mean to make you jealous, but, because I am getting a chilly
tent at Bosch, Derek has promised to allow Sherman the Bosch Cat to room with
me for the weekend. He will sleep at my feet to keep them warm. I trust he
can also lead me to the outhouse which I am told is "close by," whatever that
means. No snookums or cuddle bumpkins here - Linda
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 10:44:36 PST8PDT
Subject: (long) Re: Fwd: Dialogue Decalogue (the original)
Hi,
See the appended text for entire contents of the original
"G-ETHIC" message.
For the uninitiated, G-ETHIC (Global Ethics) is one of
several email lists that evolved out of (amongst other
things?) the Parliment of World Religions a few years ago.
EP
> From: Member1700@aol.com
> Date sent: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 12:05:23 -0500
> To: Talisman@indiana.edu
> Subject: Fwd: Dialogue Decalogue
> Just for the interest and information of the Talismaniacs.
>
> Tony
> ---------------------
****************************************************************
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 16:42:49 EST
From: Lawren Bale
Organization: TEMPLE UNIVERSITY
Subject: Dialogue Decalogue
To: Multiple recipients of list G-ETHIC
THE DIALOGUE DECALOGUE:
Ground Rules for Interreligious, Intercultural Dialogue
Leonard Swidler
Dialogue is a conversation on a common subject between
two or more persons with differing views, the primary purpose
of which is for each participant to learn from the other so
that s/he can change and grow. This very definition of
dialogue embodies the first commandment of dialogue.
In the religious-ideological sphere in the past, we came
together to discuss with those differing with us, for example,
Catholics with Protestants, either to defeat an opponent, or
to learn about an opponent so as to deal more effectively with
her or him, or at best to negotiate with him or her. If we
faced each other at all, it was in confrontation--sometimes
more openly polemically, sometimes more subtly so, but always
with the ultimate goal of defeating the other, because we were
convinced that we alone had the absolute truth.
But dialogue is _not_ debate. In dialogue each partner
must listen to the other as openly and sympathetically as s/he
can in an attempt to understand the other's position as
precisely and, as it were, as much from within, as possible.
Such an attitude automatically includes the assumption that at
any point we might find the partner's position so persuasive
that, if we would act with integrity, we would have to change,
and change can be disturbing.
We are here, of course, speaking of a specific kind of
dialogue, an interreligious, interideological dialogue. To
have such, it is not sufficient that the dialogue partners
discuss a religious-ideological subject, that is, the meaning
of life and how to live accordingly. Rather, they must come to
the dialogue as persons somehow significantly identified with
a religious or ideological community. If I were neither a
Christian nor a Marxist, for example, I could not participate
as a "partner" in Christian-Marxist dialogue, though I might
listen in, ask some questions for information, and make some
helpful comments.
It is obvious that interreligious, interideological
dialogue is something new under the sun. We could not conceive
of it, let alone do it in the past. How, then, can we
effectively engage in this new thing? The following are some
basic ground rules, or "commandments," of interreligious,
interideological dialogue that must be observed if dialogue is
actually to take place. These are not theoretical rules, or
commandments given from "on high," but ones that have been
learned from hard experience.
FIRST COMMANDMENT: _The primary purpose of dialogue is to
learn, that is, to change and grow in the perception and
understanding of reality, and then to act accordingly_.
Minimally, the very fact that I learn that my dialogue partner
believes "this" rather than "that" proportionally changes my
attitude toward her; and a change in my attitude is a
significant change in me. We enter into dialogue so that _we_
can learn, change, and grow, not so we can force change on the
_other_, as one hopes to do in debate---a hope realized in
inverse proportion to the frequency and ferocity with which
debate is entered into. On the other hand, because in dialogue
_each_ partner comes with the intention of learning and
changing herself, one's partner in fact will also change. Thus
the goal of debate, and much more, is accomplished far more
effectively by dialogue.
SECOND COMMANDMENT: _Interreligious, interideological
dialogue must be a two-sided project---within each religious
or ideological community and between religious or ideological
communities_. Because of the "corporate" nature of inter-
religious dialogue, and since the primary goal of dialogue is
that each partner learn and change himself, it is also
necessary that each participant enter into dialogue not only
with his partner across the faith line---the Lutheran with the
Anglican, for example---but also with his coreligionists, with
his fellow Lutherans, to share with them the fruits of the
interreligious dialogue. Only thus can the whole community
eventually learn and change, moving toward an ever more
perceptive insight into reality.
THIRD COMMANDMENT: _Each participant must come to the
dialogue with complete honesty and sincerity_. It should be
made clear in what direction the major and minor thrusts of
the tradition move, what the future shifts might be, and, if
necessary, where the participant has difficulties with her own
tradition. No false fronts have any place in dialogue.
_Conversely---each participant must assume a similar
complete honesty and sincerity in the other partners_. Not
only will the absence of sincerity prevent dialogue from
happening, but the absence of the assumption of the partner's
sincerity will do so as well. In brief: no trust, no dialogue.
FOURTH COMMANDMENT: _In interreligious, interideological
dialogue we must not compare our ideals with our partner's
practice_, but rather our ideals with our partner's ideals,
our practice with our partner's practice.
FIFTH COMMANDMENT: _Each participant must define himself_.
Only the Jew, for example, can define what it means to be a
Jew. The rest can only describe what it looks like from the
outside. Moreover, because dialogue is a dynamic medium, as
each participant learns, he will change and hence continually
deepen, expand, and modify his self-definition as a Jew---being
careful to remain in constant dialogue with fellow Jews. Thus
it is mandatory that each dialogue partner define what it means
to be an authentic member of his own tradition.
_Conversely---the one interpreted must be able to recognize
herself in the interpretation_. This is the golden rule of
interreligious hermeneutics, as has been often reiterated by
the "apostle of interreligious dialogue," Raimundo Panikkar.
For the sake of understanding, each dialogue participant will
naturally attempt to express for herself what she thinks is
the meaning of the partner's statement; the partner must be
able to recognize herself in that expression. The advocate of
"a world theology," Wilfred Cantwell Smith, would add that the
expression must also be verifiable by critical observers who
are not involved.
SIXTH COMMANDMENT: _Each participant must come to the
dialogue with no hard-and-fast assumptions as to where the
points of disagreement are_. Rather, each partner should not
only listen to the other partner with openness and sympathy
but also attempt to agree with the dialogue partner as far as
is possible while still maintaining integrity with his own
tradition; where he absolutely can agree no further without
violating his own integrity, precisely there is the real point
of disagreement---which most often turns out to be different
from the point of disagreement that was falsely assumed ahead
of time.
SEVENTH COMMANDMENT: _Dialogue can take place only between
equals_, or _par cum pari_ as Vatican II put it. Both must
come to learn from each other. Therefore, if, for example, the
Muslim views Hinduism as inferior, or if the Hindu views Islam
as inferior, there will be no dialogue. If authentic
interreligious, interideological dialogue between Muslims and
Hindus is to occur, then both the Muslim and the Hindu must
come mainly to learn from each other; only then will it be
"equal with equal," _par cum pari_. This rule also indicates
that there can be no such thing as a one-way dialogue. For
example, Jewish-Christian discussions begun in the 1960's were
mainly only prolegomena to interreligious dialogue.
Understandably and properly, the Jews came to these exchanges
only to teach Christians, although the Christians came mainly
to learn. But, if authentic interreligious dialogue between
Christians and Jews is to occur, then the Jews must also come
mainly to learn; only then will it too be _par cum pari_.
EIGHTH COMMANDMENT: _Dialogue can take place only on the
basis of mutual trust_. Although interreligious,
interideological dialogue must occur with some kind of
"corporate" dimension, that is, the participants must be
involved as members of a religious or ideological community
---for instance, as Marxists or Taoists---it is also
fundamentally true that it is only _persons_ who can enter
into dialogue. But a dialogue among persons can be built only
on personal trust. Hence it is wise not to tackle the most
difficult problems in the beginning, but rather to approach
first those issues most likely to provide some common ground,
thereby establishing the basis of human trust. Then,
gradually, as this personal trust deepens and expands, the
more thorny matters can be undertaken. Thus, as in learning we
move from the known to the unknown, so in dialogue we proceed
from commonly held matters---which, given our mutual ignorance
resulting from centuries of hostility, will take us quite some
time to discover fully---to discuss matters of disagreement.
NINTH COMMANDMENT: _Persons entering into interreligious,
interideological dialogue must be at least minimally self-
critical of both themselves and their own religious or
ideological traditions_. A lack of such self-criticism implies
that one's own tradition already has all the correct answers.
Such an attitude makes dialogue not only unnecessary, but even
impossible, since we enter into dialogue primarily so _we_ can
learn---which obviously is impossible if our tradition has
never made a misstep, if it has all the right answers. To be
sure, in interreligious, interideological dialogue one must
stand within a religious or ideological tradition with
integrity and conviction, but such integrity and conviction
must include, not exclude, a healthy self-criticism. Without
it there can be no dialogue---and, indeed, no integrity.
TENTH COMMANDMENT: _Each participant eventually must
attempt to experience the partner's religion or ideology "from
within"_; for a religion or ideology is not merely something
of the head, but also of the spirit, heart, and "whole being,"
individual and communal. John Dunne here speaks of "passing
over" into another's religious or ideological experience and
then coming back enlightened, broadened, and deepened. As
Raimundo Panikkar notes, "To know what a religion says, we
must understand what it says, but for this we must somehow
believe in what it says": for example, "A Christian will never
fully understand Hinduism if he is not, in one way or another,
converted to Hinduism. Nor will a Hindu ever fully understand
Christianity unless he, in one way or another, becomes
Christian."
Interreligious, interideological dialogue operates in
three areas: the practical, where we collaborate to help
humanity; the depth or "spiritual" dimension where we attempt
to experience the partner's religion or ideology "from within";
the cognitive, where we seek understanding and truth.
Interreligious, interideological dialogue also has three
phases. In the first phase we unlearn misinformation about
each other and begin to know each other as we truly are. In
phase two we begin to discern values in the partner's
tradition and wish to appropriate them into our own tradition.
For example, in the Buddhist-Christian dialogue Christians
might learn a greater appreciation of the meditative
tradition, and Buddhists might learn a greater appreciation of
the prophetic, social justice tradition---both values
traditionally strongly, though not exclusively, associated
with the other's community.
If we are serious, persistent, and sensitive enough in the
dialogue, we may at times enter into phase three. Here we
together begin to explore new areas of reality, of meaning, and
of truth, of which neither of us had even been aware before. We
are brought face to face with this new, as-yet-unknown-to-us
dimension of reality only because of questions, insights,
probings produced in the dialogue. We may thus dare to say that
patiently pursued dialogue can become an instrument of new
"re-velation," a further "un-veiling" of reality---on which
we must then act.
There is something radically different about phase one on
the one hand and phases two and three on the other. In the
latter we do not simply add on quantitatively another "truth"
or value from the partner's tradition. Instead, as we
assimilate it within our own religious self-understanding, it
will proportionately transform our self-understanding. Since
our dialogue partner will be in a similar position, we will
then be able to witness authentically to those elements of
deep value in our own tradition that our partner's tradition
may well be able to assimilate with self-transforming profit.
All this of course will have to be done with complete
integrity on each side, each partner remaining authentically
true to the vital core of his/her own religious tradition.
However, in significant ways that vital core will be perceived
and experienced differently under the influence of the
dialogue, but, if the dialogue is carried on with both
integrity and openness, the result will be that, for example,
the Jew will be authentically Jewish and the Christian will be
authentically Christian, not despite the fact that Judaism
and/or Christianity have been profoundly "Buddhized," but
because of it. And the same is true of a Judaized and/or
Christianized Buddhism. There can be no talk of a syncretism
here, for syncretism means amalgamating various elements of
different religions into some kind of a (con)fused whole
without concern for the integrity of the religions involved---
which is not the case with authentic dialogue.
*************************************************************************
* From the Cyber-Niche of: Lawren Bale, Ph.D. *
* e-mail: bale@vm.temple.edu *
* www mail: bale@astro.ocis.temple.edu *
* WWW: http://www.temple.edu/~dialogue *
****************************************************************
=END=
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 13:07:56 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: Noorbakhsh.Monzavi@hibo.no, frlw@midway.uchicago.edu,
Masumian@mail.utexas.edu
Subject: Iranian Counterfeit Operation (fwd)
>Mullahs' Major Counterfeit Operation of American Currency,
>ABC World News, January 22
>
> There may a break in one of the most damaging
>counterfeit money scams in the American History. The
>government says the trail leads to Iran...
> ... As Counterfiet 100s have spread through foreign
>currency markets around the world with what some law
>enforcement's authorities estimating as much as $10 billion
>worth now in circulation....
> Robert Lugar, the former head of government office that
>prints the real 100s says the high quality printing and paper
>plus the mysterious source of the supernotes have long
>frustrated American authorities....
> But now, the American intelligence and international
>banking officials have told ABC News that the source of the
>counterfeit money has been tracked to the Islamic Republic of
>Iran. Officials believe the counterfeit operation is actually
>located in this building in Tehran, seen here in the satellite
>photograph commissioned by ABC News. The official
>government mint. Authorities say the Iranians are using
>special high quality intaglio presses made by a Swiss company
>called Giori which are identical to these presses at the US mint
>in Washington which prints the genuine 100 bills....
> Not only does Iran have the very same presses used by
>the US mint, American authorities believe has had the help of
>master engravers who worked for the East German secret
>police. Although the source of the near-genuine paper stock
>remains a mystery. But Senator Patrick Leahy says its no
>mystery what Iran is up to: Terrorism.
>
>Sen. Leahy: I am convinced that it is Iran and I am convinced
>that it is the terrorist organizations who take their direction
>from Iran. They are using this.
> Authorities have told ABC News that the supernotes have
>been tracked to Syria, the Bekaa Valley in Lebanon, and N.
>Korea which has close ties to Iran.
> ... The American intelligence authorities have told ABC
>News that late last year the US made covert contacts with Iran
>to demand a stop to the counterfeiting and the US could be
>prepared to do more. With one White House official saying that
>counterfeiting of American currency could be considered an act
>of war.
>
>
>Iran Playing with Fire in Bahrain - Kuwait Paper, Reuters,
>January 22
>
> KUWAIT - Kuwaiti newspapers accused Iran on Monday
>of fomenting riots in Bahrain and said Tehran's alleged
>involvement could provoke unspecified retaliation from Gulf
>Arab states and their Western allies.
> "Iran should stop playing with fire," al-Seyassah and its
>sister paper the Arab Times said in an editorial.
> "Member states of the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) will
>not stand by as spectators and watch Bahrain crumble under
>Iran's so-called religious duty," wrote Ahmad al-Jarallah,
>editor-in-chief of both newspapers.
> "Perhaps also the countries of the alliance that liberated
>Kuwait will not simply stand idly by," he said, referring to the
>U.S.-backed coalition that ended an Iraqi occupation of Kuwait
>in the 1991 Gulf War....
> Jarrallah said Iranian attempts to destabilize Bahrain
>would only increase Iran's international isolation....
>
>
>
=END=
From: Dave10018@aol.com
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 14:59:39 -0500
To: friberg@will.brl.ntt.jp, talisman@indiana.edu,
Danorey@qmbridge.ccs.csus.edu, DAVEJORDAN@aol.com,
Rassekh@uhavax.hartford.edu
Subject: Re: The House's letter; a speculative post on homosexuality,liberation
and law
Thankyou, Steve
Stephen Friberg sent me a note about the House's letter, and with his
permission I have used his letter as a starting point for my own response.
You raise some interesting points and i am happy to go through your letter
and respond. You may be surprised at how far afield I seem to roam. Thinking
about sexuality and how it is experienced, I think we need to consider the
context of relations betweeen men and women. We need to consider why and how
the issue of homosexuality is involved in the development of feminism. As
you read this, forget about "political correctness" or even "Baha'i
correctness," as this sort of attitude has nothing to do with my thinking
when i am figuring things out. I simply want to understand the beauty of
things as they are and in their evolution. I want to be true to my own
experience and understanding. Also, the subject is much too big, and not an
area of expertise for me but only an area of abiding interest. My reading in
questions of sexuality, as my experience, has been relatively broad. I would
say more, but i don't want to exaggerate, confess or brag. I am not pure. I
have been lucky in my wanderings across various lines. Gay people say that
sexual preference is not a question of who you sleep with, but who you fall
in love with. In my experience love always involves spirituality and sex,
even in the briefest, most unequal encounters, always involves love. Rules
involve building the context in which love relates to spirituality,
confirming and priviledging some kinds of relationships over others, but even
in the most rigid framework, actual experience involves some contradictions.
I should probably resist making this observation, but sex is slippery.
>Subj: The House's letter
>Date: 96-01-17 06:27:09 EST
>Dear Dave:
>
>Being over in Japan these last seven years has made the gay rights issues
>seem like they are from another planet. Partly, the reason is that no one
>over here seems to think the issues are overly important. The culture
>doesn't
>give sexuality that "forbidden fruit" zing that rejection of Christianity
>has.
This does sound like an advantage...in a way. It may seem like an aside,
irrelevent to the main argument, but it is not. To consider the evolution of
ideas about homosexuality in modern societies we need also to discuss the
evolution of ideas about women, because these are linked.
From over here Japan looks like a society still pretty comfortable with
phallocentric victorian attitudes toward sex and toward women. It is still a
male dominated society where sex of all kinds is taken as a male pleasure and
prerogative. Women are encouraged to specialize, either for home and children
or, before marriage, to add a decorative element to the commercial
environment(e.g. "office ladies") or for "entertainment." Japanese
businessmen fill the sextours to Thailand(with a sprinkling of Americans,to
be sure). This is much like in Victorian England or the France of Napolean
III. In such a society homosexual activity is tolerated, and, as in 19th
century Europe and England, male homosexual relationships may be regarded as
"ideal" friendships, since the closeness and mutuality between two men is
regarded as much greater than that possible between a man and a woman who is
definitely not considered his equal. Again, the Victorians managed to behave
this way, even if Christianity made them more hypocritical and circumspect,
because they were confident that modern science had proven women inferior to
men. The height of evolution was the white male, and woman was taken to be
less evolved. The ideal wife was supposed to be retiring and frail--so
delicate as to be actually sickly--and have no interest in sex. She was
supposed to live to serve and was naturally in harmony with her children
because of her childlike mind. She was even described approvingly as "the
household nun." She was supposed to provide a moral refuge from the
depradations of unbridled capitalism. On the other hand, a woman whose
sexual appetites had been awakened was dangerous, a body-destroying and
soul-killing siren. In this category were not only prostitutes, but
actresses(These categories were indistinct. Sarah Bernhart, who portrayed the
Bab, was not known only for her dramatic abilities.) and any woman who made
her living outside the home, such as the milleners, ballerinas, et cetera
depicted by Edgar Degas.
Men, of course, are happy in such a society, and women at least know the
rules, and have their "place" as well as the comforts and consolations of
their own female society, and men who frequently honor their side of the
bargain, returning home as many times as they leave. In such a society what
happens outside the marriage contract are well tolerated as long as
appearances are maintained(as long as a married woman does not have sex with
another man, or a prostitute demand the commitment due a wife. Homosexual
relations between women are regarded as so insignificant as to be invisible,
and homosexual relations between men are frequently connected to customs of
mentorship, and men are expected to go with their business associates--their
equals--to "bond" by drinking together and visiting --heterosexual--strip
bars and houses of prostitution. Of course, ultimately the repressive nature
of this society and its hypocrisy and ethical contradictions brings reaction,
and feminism has gained a small foothold in Japan and ultimately will
transform it. When it does, homosexuality will be more of an issue, just as
it became more of an issue with the development of feminism in 19th century
Europe and America. This is not just because Japanese feminists are
influenced by European and American feminist theory (from whence the
well-known radical-lesbian dictim "Feminism is the theory, lesbianism is the
practice.") but because as feminists assert the complex reality of feminine
subjectivity, male assumptions about masculine subjectivity and, hence,
sexuality are thrown into question in various discomfiting ways.
Men have trouble adjusting to the new idea that women have independent souls
and therefore, independent points of view. In 19th century Europe and America
female --heterosexuality-- became the focus of enormous anxiety. If women can
be sexually attracted to men --and men become aware that women possess human
subjectivity-- then men are forced to imagine as a human possibility a
sustained sexual attraction for men, and this not as an exalted "ideal" for
a few highly evolved souls but in his own partner. While there are societies
that regulate sexual behaviour by prescribing alternating periods of
homosexual and heterosexual behaviour, men tend to be averse to an object
choice different than their own. Men who are attracted to women find the idea
of sex with a man distasteful and homosexual men tend to find the idea of sex
with a woman distasteful. (women are less troubled by this kind of aversion.)
It is to protect themselves from their own potential homosexual
attraction(which threatens their ability to feel heterosexual attraction)
that men project it out onto a specialized class which they pity or dispise.
Men's contempt for women also has its root in fear of women's sexuality and
fear of women's sexuality in themselves means that homophobia--fear of
homosexuality, especially male homosexuality--rises as women assert
themselves. And fear of homosexuality strengthens and supports belief in
homosexuality as a seperate and stable category. The marking of homosexuals
as "deviant" or "different"serves the dominant heterosexual males by allowing
them to deny homosexual potential in themselves since they recognize it
only in the exaggerated forms of the "flagrant." When homosexuals
demonstrate their ordinariness, this is far more threatening to the
established order than when they act outrageous.
And so no one has felt it necessary to develop a special defense
>of the rights of homosexuals, as they haven't been viewed as somehow
>distinct and different than everybody else. At the same time,
>anything other than circumspection is viewed as sheer egocentricity,
>not because homosexuality is so bad, but because drawing undue
>attention to onesself is bad.
>
No one? I find this hard to believe. I will quote a paragraph from
"Homosexualities,"(Psychological Associates,New York,1975,reprinted
bySignet,1976) a book by C.A.Tripp,PHD, a researcher who worked with Kinsey:
For reasons not fully understood, when homosexuality or some newly introduced
version of it does catch on, it can be absorbed in quite different ways. It
may be "added on to" the mores, or integrated into them. In Malaya, Burma,
and Thailand, for instance, it is quite unusual for young adult males to have
any sexual interest in each other, and yet many find foreign males,
especially Caucasians, almost irresistible. In other social climates, the
Japanese course of events is evident. Homosexuality is certainly not new in
Japan; in primitive forms (purely anal, nonaffectionate relations between
males of unequal status) it has appeared in Japanese scrolls for at least
four hundred years. But this hardly compares with the Japanese escalation in
quantity and quality which has taken place since the American Occupation. In
fact, the Japanese have so embraced every newly introduced form of
homosexuality that many members of the younger generation think --gaybar--
is; a Japanese word, without the slightest notion of its origin."
>*So, from my point of view, the European/Western gay rights thing is
>just a kind of provincialism, a wierd European invention. In a sense,
>I view it as the logical conclusion of the very dramatic rejection of
>religion by the European upper classes several hundred years ago:
>there was still the need for justification of the pursuit of leisure
>in a kind of leftover Christian sense, so all kinds of theories were
>proposed and developed.
>
>In this century, Europeans seem to have convinced themselves that
>homosexuality is a peculiar natural inborne trait, as opposed to
>being a rather ordinary part of human nature. Foucault argues this
>to be a consequence of the rise and development of the centralized
>state and the resulting techniques of control over peoples bodies
>so characteristic of modern medical practices. Whatever it is,
>its out of touch with the rest of humanity's experiences.
>
I have not read Foucault on this subject.(I have only read a few articles and
interviews) but in a discussion of Foucault's view of homosexuality, Eve
Kosofsky Sedgwick writes that Foucault traces the beginning of "homosexuality
as we know it" to 1870.(she is critical of the static formulation "as we know
it") As Jackson Armstrong- Ingram pointed out in his exemplary post, the term
"homosexuality" was coined at this time, a time when all kinds of sexual
behaviour was being viewed as pathological. Women's sexuality was so
pathologized that for many writers "normal female sexuality" did not exist.
>Accordingly, when the House takes a stand, perhaps in response to the
>more forthright Americans, they are doing so in the context of the
>whole world's Baha'i community, of which only 2% are in the States.
>Yet, the Americans, with their own strange concept of the issue
>developed in the last twenty years in the particularly American
>crucible of great wealth and no family responsibility, is that
>their own formulation of the problem is being ignored. (Actually,
>this is being simplistic. There is no consensus on this, I think.)
>
>
Now, I usually can't discuss these things very openly, the issue being so
>political. So please be patient with my unburdening on these issues.
>Your note was kind and thoughtful, and I feel that you will respect
>my sentiments.
>
>My own personal response to the House's message was
>that it was rather straightforward, and very much common sense,
>using the Guardian's responses to the European and American
>communities question earlier as the guidelines. As a scientist,
>I know that there is little, if any, evidence, from medicine on these
>issues, despite the publicity.
>
>Clearly, there is a minority of people attracted to those of the
>same sex (how many is unknown), but the House equally condemns
>companionate marriage between people of the opposite sex.
>Why should the Baha'i standard of self-discipline be expected
>to be abandoned? This line of thinking, which probably seems
>hopelessly mired in conservatism to many in the US, is probably,
>in the long run, much more conducive to the well-being of everybody.
>Yes, it doesn't confer any special status on homosexuality. No, it
>doesn't condemn homosexuals (in my opinion).
>
>To me homosexuality is simply a false category: its an artificial
>construct. We are all people! Or, how to say it differently: for
>anyone to label anybody else a homosexual, or even themselves a
>homosexual, is to impose a false distinction. Why? Because
>people are people, humans. Yes, our reproductive mechanism is
>sexual, but to make that the whole picture is to do violence
>to what we are. It's like saying that the purpose of life
>is eating!
I don't know,Steve. I like to eat too! Seriously, eating and sex are primary
sensory modalities, through which we understand the world and express our
spirituality. I agree it is a false distinction, but we will never realize
this by suppressing those of us who are expressing what others suppress. We
will realize it is a false distinction when we come as a whole to overcome
our fear and realize these potentials in ourselves. It should be obvious that
the fact that Baha'u'llah, like the authors of leviticus, has forbidden
homosexual acts, implies that such acts constitute a temptation not for a
special class of unfortunates, but for all of us. As we all come to realize
this the burden will be lighter.
At present, I wish the House in its letter had ackowledged that while there
--may-- be medical treatments for genetic aspects of homosexual orientation
at some future date, none currently exist or are even contemplated, and the
only counselling techniques which have proven effective to date at relieving
homosexuals of a feeling of shame and compulsiveness involve abandoning
efforts at repression of their impulses, just as do counselling aimed at
helping compulsive and shame-filled heterosexuals.
Also, we should understand that at the present moment and even more in the
near future, Baha'is interested in homosexuality find themselves in a much
more frustrating situation than even a few decades ago, because there is so
little sympathy or understanding in gay society now for the kind of
discretion Baha'is have traditionally prized. Even Mark Tobey, who led an
exemplary life of discretion in these terms, has been "outed" since his death
by the Seatle Museum of Art, which featured his homoerotic portraits of
sailors and dockworkers in a show of his figuritive work in 1985, mentioning
his homosexual orientation in the catalog text.
I would suggest that this stage we are going through, which started in
Europe and America, which is defined by the simultaneous rise of women, of
homophobia and self-conscious homosexual communities, is not simply a result
of European peculiarity, nor will the rest of the world avoid it, nor will it
stop before it has run its course, nor will it fail to have a beneficial
effect on humanity, nor even will it in its final development contradict
Baha'i law but neither will the beautiful erotic possibilities and
sensitivities, the poetry and heroic sacrifice of so many brave and
unconventional lovers, both men and women, be wasted or lost. The world will
vibrate with a new bloom of Platonic love. Those who wish to normalize the
present situation in Europe and America, where a relatively unmolested gay
community flourishes with minority status, fail to appreciate the role stigma
plays in creating this balance, or they think that the stigma is so deep as
never to be eliminated. In intellectual and artistic communities the
prestige, even the spiritual authority, of gays and lesbians is growing every
day, and, as any unbiased observer will find, for many very good reasons,
including the fact that they express important human potentialities for the
rest of us, most of whom keep these potentials from conscious knowledge.
AIDS will prove to be curable or at least so treatable as to be easy to live
with. Stigma will continue to break down(gays will continue to press to break
it down and they will be successful, fortunately) and with the conquest of
AIDS male homosexuality will have a new vogue. Many will be attracted by the
deep spirituality gay men developed through their long hour in the shadow of
death and the joy and sense of freedom that will accompany their escape.(We
should remember the example of syphilis. The sexual revolution which began in
the fifties and burst into full bloom in the sixties was fed as much by
penicillin as by "the pill." Then we should remember how the eruption of
casual heterosexual behaviour led to a sharper sense for women both of their
autonomy and their oppression by men,and how it contributed also to the birth
of "gay liberation.") Lesbianism also will continue to grow in influence.
Materially, men and women are quite different in their experience of sex, and
heterosexuality involves compromises which homosexuality does not involve.
Masters and Johnson have established the advantages of homosexuality for both
sexes, as they have also established that people have their physiologically
most intense orgasms when they masturbate. A sexuality,however, to really
take root and become an established practice, must win a person's heart.
Hence, gays say that the question that matters is not who do you have sex
with, but who do you fall in with. Thus sexuality involves physical factors
but also ideology that makes possible and validates behaviours and
attachments. Monogamous heterosexuality has depended on supports of custom
and tradition which have broken down. They have been replaced by a
psuedo-scientific doctrine of "normalcy" which is breaking down.The idea of a
monogamous heterosexual marriage between --equals--, furthermore, is, at
least as a common goal, new. We are moving through all this to a fuller
appreciation of each other. We are all one.
I will close with a poem I wrote for my father:
VALENTINE
Conversation is mysterious.
Sex is gesture at the end
of sentences.
We talk and thick blood
Flows between us.
We carry on long
Conversations
With our hearts in our mouths.
We hold too
Much in them.
Our mouths
Do not tell.
When time tells
We fly up
Filling the air
With smoke.
>Well, I better finish. I'm looking forward to your views on the
>subject and the arguments you develop. If you need a somebody as
>a foil to reply to your arguments, let me know.
>Yours truly,
>Steve F.
>
Further responses will be appreciated. I'm sure many of you will find my
position unclear. :-)
Love to all,
dave taylor
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 15:43:49 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Aids
Dear All ,
My 14 year old is doing a paper on Aids . Does anyone know of a couple of
good magazine / journal articles which would give a balanced treatment of
the nature and effects of the disease.
Thanks for any help .
warm regards,
terry
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 10:55:36 -0600
To: TLCULHANE@aol.com, talisman@indiana.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: (mer)Maids , Law and Modernity
Talismans,
Sorry to clutter, but I must say that I thought Terry's letter (to [mis]use
an American metaphor) touched key bases. In my view it is a (quirky and
deft) summation of the major issues of Talisman discourse, and a guiding
light for the future. Terry's touch is light and deceptive (befitting a
magician), so the letter warrants a second reading, at least. I am sure he
could spend several lifetimes re-telling the same story -- as play, poem,
dissertation, article, book, lecture...
From Terry's "former friend",
Robert.
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Homosexuality/Conscience
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 16:18:48 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Hi, Dave -
Thank you for your message. I wrote you privately that I did not
receive it. What I had forgotten was that I downloaded a mail packet
this morning which I did not have time to read.
D >or, contrariwise, the paradoxical expression of revealed truth as it is
D >hidden in the various and rebellious actions of humanity---how human
D >sexuality really works. Knowing about that might be useful in understanding
D >its mystical import. Humanity displays all kinds of paradoxical effects,
D >such as that all kinds of "forbidden things" are involved in spiritual
D >experiences which lead to spiritual transformation. We as Baha'is tend to
D >be in a hurry to get to the end of the story. We want "good deeds" and
D >"bad deeds."
Dave, I agree with you. Personally, I feel that we sometimes place
far too much emphasis on our personal estimates of what is right and
wrong. Those decisions are reserved for the institutions, which will,
hopefully, consult on the relative applications of spiritual principles
and divine ordinances. As individuals, our responsibility is to look at
others with a sin-covering eye. We have no way of judging the ultimate
destiny of another soul and can only observe degrees of progress, or the
lack of it, from the standpoint of God's Kingdom. Anything beyond that
is, IMHO, vain imaginings
D >This makes me dizzy, Mark! It sounds like you are saying that at
D >present the world is so disordered that we can learn nothing from it.
D >I geuss you would say I am an optimist. I do not believe the
D >apparent chaos of a world in transition does not in itself reflect
D >aspects of the "inner dynamic which generates the externals."
I agree that we can learn from it. Outward appearance, regardless of
its condition, is an emanation of the plane of spirit, and, on some
level, it is the stepped down animus of the Holy Spirit (the manifested
purposeful power of God). The key, IMO, is for each of us to claim the
dominion over this world that we were promised at the beginning of the
Baha'i-Adamic universal cycle and, with the assistance of the spirit of
faith, to facilitate all the kingdoms of creation to more fully manifest
their own degrees of spirit (purposeful, or loving and knowing, power).
Gender issues have, unfortunately, been politicized. In a short
time, I think, this entire subject will be seen in a fuller light, and
present-day confusions over sexual orientation concerns will, in
principle, be mostly resolved. The solution is, I feel, right here. It
will seem, in retrospect, obvious, but it is not clear as of yet. When
understood, the anger will subside and understanding will result. And I
don't think it has much to do with sexual orientation per se, although
that is one manifestation of the condition.
Ever to the Light,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Past President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Director, Institute for Reality Science [sm] Owner, Baha'i Studies List *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Office: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 Home: 913/768-4244 Fax: 913/469-4409 *
*Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) UWG94A (Prodigy) *
*mfoster@tyrell.net mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us (Baha'i List Co-Moderator) *
*72642,3105 (Staff, 3 CompuServe Religion Fora, incl. Baha'i Section Leader) *
*Realityman (America Online Ethics & Religion Forum Chief Baha'i Chat Host) *
*Home Pages: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality *
* http://home.aol.com/Realityman (Note: The Web is Case-Sensitive)*
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Intellectuals
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 16:18:47 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Talismanians -
Re: intellectuals - I am aware of the various uses of the term,
including Gouldner's (which, BTW, ties in well with his approach to
reflexive sociology). However, I am inclined to agree with one poster
that his definition reflects a Western individualist *bias* (IMO).
I do not feel that we need to go any further than the words of the
Master for an understanding of the essential, underlying characteristic
a real intellectual in the Day of God. As I see it, an intellectual is
one with who, within the consultative context of a scientific community,
compassionately and with respect for the views of others, engages in the
independent investigation of truth/reality.
Rather than dwelling on the undermining of the fallacy of authority
(though that may certainly be one possible result), can we not focus on
truth (building bridges to reality, as `Abdu'l-Baha wrote) - unfettered
by superstition and human attachments? In that sense, all of us are
called upon to be true intellectuals. In fact, being an intellectual
becomes a spiritual quality, or perfection, which each of us can strive
to develop.
On another subject: Philip, as an alternative to asking people what
they *think* a passage in "The Seven Valleys" means, one might ask them
how it makes them *feel*. Such an approach might, I suspect, cultivate
even deeper insights.
To the Light,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Past President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Director, Institute for Reality Science [sm] Owner, Baha'i Studies List *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Office: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 Home: 913/768-4244 Fax: 913/469-4409 *
*Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) UWG94A (Prodigy) *
*mfoster@tyrell.net mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us (Baha'i List Co-Moderator) *
*72642,3105 (Staff, 3 CompuServe Religion Fora, incl. Baha'i Section Leader) *
*Realityman (America Online Ethics & Religion Forum Chief Baha'i Chat Host) *
*Home Pages: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality *
* http://home.aol.com/Realityman (Note: The Web is Case-Sensitive)*
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 13:27:33 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: RE.I am a Walrus ?
To: burl@bmi.org
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: I am the Walrus?
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 96 00:02 PST
Dear self-pinching Derek:
My dear best friend Burl
Your secret message away from talisman made me feel so much better but more
angry. Why do the economists in the Baha i community have to stay hidden as
though there is something wrong with us. This is exactly what I meant
it is a tragedy anyone could think of Economists as immoral. Do you know the
lonely years I have spent as an Economist in the Baha i community. As a Baha i
youth older powerful and very influential Baha is would say what
have you studied? Economics I would reply . The look of shock and disgust :
What economics you will get your voting rights taken away for such things . Go
and study something useful like sociology. Be an accountant or a
Bank Manager or something really respectable like a stock broker. I have often
thought my life would have been different if I had studied something
intellectually acceptable in the Baha i community like Middle Eastern his
tory or medicine or engineering or Arabic grammar . pAs a youth people would
attend my talks to check me out for economic devation signs. It has been a
nightmare and I thought on Talisman I might be safe from persecution
and be allowed to discuss a great dream of mine establishing the first Baha i
economists magazine : The Baha i Economist. Back in the UK I drafted out the
proposed first edition but I was too terrified to show it to anybo
dy. Apparently economic models are not the stuff Baha is are made of . I will
prepare a hot carboned copy myself to the American Baha i but I think myself
Burl the pro=intellectual elite control it too much , it is just a
voice for the provisional translationists. When did you last see an item that
economists could relate too like: Refuse Generation Rates in Cities with the
Per capita waste generation rate at kilograms per day or the Urba
n Share of total population with projections or my personal favourite the
demographic transition as a world emergency never . They just want to talk about
their rights and changing everything into the USA Supreme Court be
cause that unelected elite appointed bastion of the status quo is better than
what we have . If that happens Burl I can see the Baha i community holding
economist-burning sessions I shall have to flee to Patagonia. There
are millions are Economists refused entry into the Baha i Community because of
prejudice . let me tell you of some of the advantages we could bring by
establishing in each community an economist LSA sort of sub-section of
the general community. No problems with the Funds,short of money just let an
economist explain to the gathered folks the needs and tell them;they not leave
until there are no more shortages. Well any eonomist worthy of t
he name by the time he/she had got to discounted cash
flow and human disruptions to the global chemical cycles would have so much
monies given to the funds inside 5 minutes there would be no more
financial worries. BED is a definite hope of the future , Baha i Economist
Defenders is the way forward . Why don we ask Linda to be the convener of such
a
group we could start our own Internet list .
I am glad you noticed that strange chap Logan s remarks about Linda . Imagine
calling the arm wrestling champion of the USA Baha i community tender hearty.
That is a real insult , remember when she decked those monks in F
lorida. From secret sources I found out that the UPS man who delivers to the
Walbridge palitial estates is worried for his own life , Linda once did a full
body press on him , picked him up body slammed on the driveway an
d then tickled his feet . As a result he can not deliver in a normal manner on
the 150 acre by going up to the large double studded doors and ring the joy
old chimes ,so he hides the goods by the Entrance Gates . By the
way I think Juan has found a way to check our E Mail he sent me a message abut
some poor tortured english economist at his University . I say Juan Cole if
you are listening in on this private converation Let Robin go . Y
es Economists have the reputation of being boring , but who puts out such
rumours . Have you ever heard and economist say that of course not . you see
Econ-biting is rampant in the Baha i Community. The pro-intellectual e
lite on Talisman and in the Baha i community have it in for us Burl. Of course
Juan being a Whale anything to get the Ladies for him , who cares about the
Walrus or the lowly shrimp. We are just objects to,be laughede at
or eaten . The pro-whalers in the Baha i community have sent me innumerable
requests for the video I produced at ABS with Juan in it . Send copy of Juan our
hero the intellectual whale it is so humilating . As far as entr
y by Economists the Baha is will have to become more understanding of our
special needs , a little graph paper at the 19 day feast , celebration of Adam
Smith Day as part of the Baha i calendar playing Keynesian melodies
and relaising the importance of the FAO.
As far as the Baha i youth are concerned by trotting them out to perform like
trained bears at Events. This allows them not to teach come perform be quiet
afterwards and leave . It also could be a plot to stop them thinki
ng about becoming Economists.
It is good to have a friend like you Burl especially as you are not an
economist yet you care
Warmest Regards
Derek
PS Burl you are sure the Talisman secret police are not watching?
=END=
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 15:13:57 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: frlw@midway.uchicago.edu, Noorbakhsh.Monzavi@hibo.no,
Masumian@MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: Reuters 1/22-23/96 (fwd)
> 'IRAN' STORIES
>Transmission date: 96/01/23
> 1. 14:39 IRAN TRIES SIX FOR ECONOMIC SABOTAGE, SPYING
> 2. 14:07 GERMANY'S KINKEL PLANS CONTROVERSIAL TEHRAN TRIP
> 3. 12:48 IRAN MPS APPROVE $20 MILLION ANTI-U.S. FUND
> 4. 10:15 TURKMEN PRESIDENT LEAVES IRAN AFTER AGREEING DEALS
> 5. 09:10 IRAN URGES BAHRAIN TO LOOK INWARD FOR UNREST CAUSE
> 6. 08:54 ARAB STATES AND IRAN IN WAR OF WORDS OVER BAHRAIN
>Transmission date: 96/01/22
> 7. 20:40 IRAN MINTING PHONY U.S. CASH, ABC NEWS SAYS
> 8. 12:14 BONN REJECTS RUSHDIE'S PUSH TO PRESSURE IRAN
> 9. 08:43 TURKMEN PRESIDENT STARTS IRAN VISIT
> 10. 06:56 IRAN PRESS DISMISS BAHRAIN TALK AS ``OLD PLOT''
> 11. 06:01 RUSHDIE URGES GERMANY TAKE TOUGHER LINE ON IRAN
> 12. 04:24 IRAN PLAYING WITH FIRE IN BAHRAIN - KUWAIT PAPER
> 13. 00:58 PRESS DIGEST - KUWAIT - JAN 22
>
>=START= XMT: 14:39 Tue Jan 23 EXP: 4 :00 Fri Jan 26
>
>
> Iran tries six for economic sabotage, spying
> TEHRAN, Jan 23 (Reuter) - Six Iranian businessmen and former officers,
>including a Jew who converted to Islam, have gone on trial on charges of
>economic sabotage, spying and trying to overthrow the Islamic government,
>newspapers said on Tuesday.
> If convicted, the defendants could face the death penalty.
> Tehran Islamic revolutionary court head Gholamhossein Rahbarpour, quoted by
>the daily Kayhan, said the six ran a major network set up during the 1980-1988
>war with Iraq to defraud banks, traffic arms and spy with the aim of sabotaging
>the economy and overthrowing the government.
> Rahbarpour told the court on Monday that 150 others involved with the group
>were arrested in the past few years, of whom 110 were convicted, the daily Iran
>said. He did not elaborate.
> Based on the list of charges, the defendants had set up several companies
>as fronts for their operation which included bribing officials with money or
>women, defrauding state banks of large sums, gathering military information for
>unspecified ``foreign powers,'' and helping people leave Iran illegally.
> Rahbarpour named the main defendants in the case as Hedayatollah Zendehdel,
>a Jewish businessman who converted to Islam, former royal guards member Ali
>Sadafiyan, former air force officer Abdolreza Yazdanshenas, and mining engineer
>and businessman Abolqassem Majd-Abkani.
> He named the other defendants as Abdolghafour Sartipi, a businessmen with
>alleged ties to Iran's former royal family and businessman and interpreter
>Fereidoun Abuzia.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 14:07 Tue Jan 23 EXP: 4 :00 Fri Jan 26
>
>
> Germany's Kinkel plans controversial Tehran trip
> BONN, Jan 23 (Reuter) - German Foreign Minister Klaus Kinkel, pursuing a
>controversial policy known as ``critical dialogue'' with Tehran, plans to visit
>Iran, his ministry said on Tuesday.
> A ministry spokeswoman said the exact date and programme had still to be
>agreed.
> Kinkel's policy of pursuing close German ties with Iran is viewed with
>suspicion in Washington and has also been bitterly opposed at home.
> His plans for an Islamic conference were left in tatters last November when
>the German parliament voted to exclude Iranian Foreign Minister Ali Akbar
>Velayati, after Tehran praised the assassination of Israeli Prime Minister
>Yitzhak Rabin.
> The rare defeat for the government prompted Kinkel to postpone the
>conference.
> Latest to slam Kinkel's Iran policy was British author Salman Rushdie,
>condemned to death by Iranian revolutionary leader Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini
>in 1989.
> In an interview with this week's issue of the weekly news magazine Der
>Spiegel, Rushdie said German diplomacy held the key to getting the ``fatwa''
>lifted and urged Kinkel to bring pressure to bear on Tehran.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 12:48 Tue Jan 23 EXP: 2 :00 Fri Jan 26
>
>
> Iran MPs approve $20 million anti-U.S. fund
> TEHRAN, Jan 23 (Reuter) - The Iranian parliament on Tuesday approved a $20
>million budget to match dollar-for-dollar a reported anti-Iranian covert action
>fund planned by the United States.
> In a budget debate broadcast live on Tehran radio, deputies approved the
>fund ``to uncover and neutralise U.S. government conspiracies and interference
>in Iranian affairs, to sue the United States in international legal bodies and
>to inform world public opinion about U.S. violations of the U.N. charter...''
> ``The followers of the Imam (late Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini)...need no
>budget but here we symbolically approve $20 million to counter the Great Satan
>(United States),'' deputy Mohammad Qomi said about the fund, the value of which
>was not specified in the text of the proposal.
> The action comes as a response to reported moves in the U.S. Congress to
>allot $20 million for a covert action plan against Iran.
> A parliamentary committee said earlier it had allocated 25 billion rials
>($14.3 million) to counter U.S. plots in the draft budget for the Iranian year
>which starts on March 20.
> Iran's Supreme National Security Council, the country's highest security
>body headed by President Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, is to ``distribute the
>budget among the related offices,'' according to the proposal passed by
>parliament.
> Press reports about the U.S. covert action plan have drawn wide
>condemnation from the Iranian media, and Tehran officials said the move
>violated international law.
> Iran has complained to the United Nations and said it would take legal
>action against the United States at the International Court of Justice in the
>Hague.
> The United States has been increasing its pressure on Iran since imposing a
>trade and investment ban against it in June 1995.
> Washington accuses Tehran of sponsoring terrorism and seeking to develop
>nuclear weapons. Iran denies both charges.
> ($1-1,750 rial at the rate used for budget accounts)
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 10:15 Tue Jan 23 EXP: 0 :00 Fri Jan 26
>
>
> Turkmen president leaves Iran after agreeing deals
> TEHRAN, Jan 23 (Reuter) - Turkmen President Saparmurat Niyazov left Tehran
>on Tuesday after reaching agreements with Iranian officials on joint projects,
>including energy deals and a railway link, Iranian media said.
> Iranian President Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, who saw off Niyazov at the
>airport, told Tehran radio final accords were reached on cooperation in various
>fields including oil and gas, dam-building, irrigation, electricity, banking
>and insurance.
> The two countries also agreed on opening a railway link expected to be
>completed by April which joins the Iranian and Turkmen networks, allowing the
>transit of goods between the Gulf and the Central Asian republics, Rafsanjani
>said.
> Tehran has boosted its economic and diplomatic contacts with its neighbours
>and other regional states in an effort to counter U.S. efforts to isolate Iran
>by imposing a trade and investment ban against it in June.
> Niyazov and Rafsanjani also signed a joint communique which called for a
>political solution of conflicts in Afghanistan and Tajikistan and expressed
>concern over ``excessive exploitation of the Caspian Sea resources,'' the
>Iranian news agency IRNA said.
> Iran said in September it had agreed with Turkmenistan on a $190 million
>dollar project to build a gas trunkline between the two countries.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 09:10 Tue Jan 23 EXP: 9 :00 Fri Jan 26
>
>
> Iran urges Bahrain to look inward for unrest cause
> TEHRAN, Jan 23 (Reuter) - Iran's state radio on Tuesday urged Bahrain to
>look inward to find the real causes of the unrest shaking the Gulf Arab state
>instead of blaming it on foreign interference.
> ``Despite the propaganda that tries to portray foreign elements as causing
>Bahrain's internal unrest,...they are the result of not following Islamic
>principles...and the lack of a mechanism allowing opposition participation in
>power,'' Tehran radio said in a commentary.
> The radio was referring to articles in Bahraini newspapers accusing Iran of
>fomenting riots by fellow Shi'ite Moslems who are a majority in Sunni-ruled
>Bahrain. The unrest led to the arrests of eight opposition Shi'ite clerics by
>the authorities.
> ``Spreading this propaganda not only fails to curb the unrest in Bahrain,
>but it also leads to overlooking its main cause and complicates the situation.
>And this will benefit neither Bahrain nor security and stability in the Persian
>Gulf region,'' added the radio.
> The Iranian media's comments on Bahrain have been generally moderate in
>comparison with its harsh attacks directed at regional powerhouse Saudi Arabia.
>Both Gulf Arab states are important U.S. regional allies.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 08:54 Tue Jan 23 EXP: 8 :00 Fri Jan 26
>
>
> Arab states and Iran in war of words over Bahrain
> By Barry May
> DUBAI, Jan 23 (Reuter) - Arab states are darkly accusing unnamed foreign
>powers of stirring up trouble in Bahrain, where eight opposition leaders are to
>go on trial after days and nights of rioting and sabotage.
> The government of Bahrain, financial centre of the Gulf and base of the
>U.S. Fifth Fleet re-formed last year to enforce U.S. ``dual containment'' of
>Iran and Iraq, has not named any country.
> But its closely-controlled press points the finger of suspicion across the
>Gulf at the region's biggest power, Iran.
> Iran has joined the war of words, dismissing accusations of involvement as
>an old ploy to externalise domestic problems and justify the U.S. military
>presence in the region.
> Trouble in Bahrain, a small Gulf island linked to Saudi Arabia by a 25 km
>(15 mile) causeway, erupted in December 1994 with the arrest of a Moslem
>Shi'ite cleric for circulating a petition calling for restoration of the
>parliament dissolved in 1975. He was deported and now lives in exile in London.
> At least 13 civilians and three policemen were killed in clashes and
>hundreds were arrested by the time the disturbances died down in April. Unrest
>flared again in recent weeks, with bombings at a shopping mall and hotel,
>rioting and arson.
> The government responded to the latest outbreak with a twin threat of
>martial law, unprecedented in Bahrain, and possible intervention by the
>8,000-strong Bahrain Defence Force.
> Eight leading Shi'ite clerics were arrested and a government official said
>on Tuesday they would face trial on charges of inciting riots and sabotage in a
>foreign-backed plot.
> ``There is proof, evidence and documents supported by pictures...'' the
>official said.
> Shi'ites comprise about one tenth of the world's one billion Moslems but in
>Bahrain they outnumber the rival Sunni branch of Islam, to which the island's
>ruling elite belongs, two to one.
> In Iran, Shi'ism has been the country's official religious doctrine since
>the tenth century.
> Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak is among those who detect ``blatant
>foreign interference'' in Bahrain.
> ``Hands that are stirring and instigating trouble in Bahrain in fact have
>other goals in the Gulf,'' he was quoted as saying in two Kuwaiti newspapers on
>Tuesday.
> Without naming names, he added: ``What is happening in Bahrain is not
>targeting that country alone. It aims at harming all the Gulf Cooperation
>Council states.''
> The GCC, set up in 1981 at the time of the Iran-Iraq war, groups Bahrain
>with the other oil-rich Gulf Arab states -- Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, the United
>Arab Emirates, Oman and Qatar.
> Iran, named as the culprit in Gulf Arab newspapers but not publicly by any
>government officials, has responded robustly to the newspaper allegations that
>it is fomenting riots.
> Tehran's Kayhan International on Tuesday dismissed ``bizarre allegations
>about Iran's role in the violence'' and said the damage to the Emir of
>Bahrain's rule was purely self-inflicted.
> ``Manama's problems have nothing to do with Tehran. Bahrain's rulers and
>their media might be making statements under the influence of others who deeply
>believe that stability and normal ties among littoral states are detrimental to
>their 'interests','' it said.
> Iran News daily said on Monday that accusing Iran of masterminding the
>disturbances in Bahrain ``is an old ploy of U.S. foreign policy to justify the
>illegal presence of American forces in the Persian Gulf region.''
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 20:40 Mon Jan 22 EXP: 0 :00 Thu Jan 25
>
>
> Iran minting phony U.S. cash, ABC News says
> WASHINGTON, Jan 22 (Reuter) - Iran is using its official government mint to
>counterfeit U.S. $100 bills, ABC News reported on Tuesday night, citing U.S.
>officials.
> The television network quoted intelligence sources as saying Washington
>made ``covert contacts'' with Iran late last year to demand a stop to the
>alleged trade in phony bills ``and may be prepared to do more.''
> One unidentified White House source was cited as saying the alleged Iranian
>counterfeiting was ``tantamout to an act of war.''
> The State Department had no immediate comment on the report.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 12:14 Mon Jan 22 EXP: 2 :00 Thu Jan 25
>
>
> Bonn rejects Rushdie's push to pressure Iran
> (Adds German refusal)
> BONN, Jan 22 (Reuter) - Germany on Monday rejected a call by British writer
>Salman Rushdie to put special pressure on Iran to lift a death sentence imposed
>on him for alleged blasphemy in his book ``The Satanic Verses.''
> Foreign Ministry spokesman Martin Erdmann said Germany preferred to work
>through the European Union than make a unilateral approach to Tehran, with
>which Bonn maintains closer ties than other Western countries.
> In an interview with Der Spiegel magazine on Monday, Rushdie urged Bonn to
>force Tehran to lift the religious edict or ``fatwa'' declared by Iranian
>revolutionary leader Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini in 1989. He has been under
>police protection ever since.
> ``Just as other member states of the European Union we will continue to
>support Rushdie,'' Erdmann told journalists. But he ruled out a unilateral
>approach to Iran.
> Erdmann said talks between Iran and the EU had reached a critical stage and
>could be hurt if details were disclosed.
> Rushdie said he thought Germany held the key to settling the problem and
>was openly sceptical of its motives in only dealing with it within the EU.
> ``Germany maintains more economic ties with Iran than any other European
>country,'' he said. ``I have to ask, why really? Why is there this almost
>enthusiastic support for this regime?''
> Tehran has said it would not send death squads to kill Indian-born Rushdie
>but has so far refused to heed the European Union's request that it put this in
>writing.
> Rushdie called on Germany and the EU to exert their economic leverage on
>Iran to force the issue.
> ``The bigger the stick, the better the effect,'' he said, adding: ``If the
>Germans were really serious about solving this problem, they could do it.''
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 08:43 Mon Jan 22 EXP: 8 :00 Thu Jan 25
>
>
> Turkmen president starts Iran visit
> TEHRAN, Jan 22 (Reuter) - Turkmen President Saparmurat Niyazov arrived in
>Tehran on Monday to discuss joint projects, including a gas pipeline and a
>railway link, Iranian media said.
> Iranian President Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, who welcomed Niyazov at the
>airport, said the talks would also cover regional issues, such as the Caspian
>Sea and security in the region, Tehran radio said.
> The two presidents are expected to sign joint investment deals and a letter
>of understanding on bilateral trade, the Iranian IRNA news agency said.
> Tehran has boosted its economic and diplomatic contacts with its neighbours
>and other regional states in an effort to counter U.S. efforts to isolate Iran
>by imposing a trade and investment ban against it in June.
> Iran has said completion of a railway link joining the Iranian and Turkmen
>networks to allow the transit of goods between the Gulf and the Central Asian
>republics was expected to by April.
> The Islamic republic said in September it had agreed with Turmenistan on a
>$190 million dollar project to build a gas trunkline between the two countries.
> After a meeting in Yerevan at the weekend, the foreign ministers of Iran,
>Turkmenistan and Armenia agreed on Sunday to boost trade and cooperation in
>banking and transport, IRNA said.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 06:56 Mon Jan 22 EXP: 6 :00 Thu Jan 25
>
>
> Iran press dismiss Bahrain talk as ``old plot''
> NICOSIA, Jan 22 (Reuter) - Iran's newspapers on Monday dismissed Gulf Arab
>accusations of involvement in Bahraini unrest as an old plot to externalise
>domestic problems and justify the U.S. military presence in the region.
> The Iran News daily said Bahrain's ruling family had denied its people even
>the most basic semblance of democracy -- parliament -- through which they could
>have a say in shaping their own future.
> ``Mass dissatisfaction and civil disturbance are the two phenomena that
>always accompany the denial of popular and basic human rights,'' it added in an
>editorial reported by the official news agency IRNA.
> Newspapers in Bahrain and Kuwait have accused Shi'ite Iran of fomenting
>recent riots by members of Bahrain's Shi'ite majority and said Tehran's alleged
>involvement could provoke retaliation from Gulf Arab states and their Western
>allies.
> Dismissing claims of Iranian involvement as baseless, Iran News said it was
>natural that, under the prevalent circumstances in Bahrain, the government
>needed a scapegoat to blame for all the country's ills.
> ``But recent history proves that countries with dictatorial regimes, when
>confronted with popular domestic uprisings, always accuse foreign states of
>fomenting the disturbance in order to have a free hand at suppressing their own
>people. The regimes of the former shah of Iran and Augusto Pinochet of Chile
>are two examples.''
> It said that accusing Iran of masterminding the disturbances in Bahrain, or
>any other Gulf Arab sheikhdom, ``is an old ploy of U.S. foreign policy to
>justify the illegal presence of American forces in the Persian Gulf region.''
> The Tehran Times, meanwhile, said Bahraini citizens had held fast to unrest
>in the absence of political parties, pressure groups and an organised
>opposition to convince officials to restore parliament.
> ``Instead of redressing the people's grievances, the officials resorted to
>arrests and suppression,'' the newspaper said, adding, ``It is an old ploy to
>externalise domestic problems by officials who are not ready to submit to the
>genuine demands of the citizens.''
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 06:01 Mon Jan 22 EXP: 6 :00 Thu Jan 25
>
>
> Rushdie urges Germany take tougher line on Iran
> BONN, Jan 22 (Reuter) - British writer Salman Rushdie on Monday urged
>Germany to take a harder line against Iran to force the Islamic fundamentalist
>government in Tehran to officially lift his death sentence for blasphemy.
> ``I have known for a long time that Germany holds the key to settling this
>problem,'' Rushdie told Der Spiegel magazine in an interview.
> ``Germany maintains more economic ties with Iran than any other European
>country. I have to ask, why really? Why is there this almost enthusiastic
>support for this regime?''
> Indian-born Rushdie has lived in hiding and with permanent protection since
>Iranian revolutionary leader Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini declared a ``fatwa,''
>or religious edict, against him in February 1989, accusing him of blasphemy
>against Islam in his book ``The Satanic Verses.''
> Tehran has said it would not send death squads to kill Rushdie, but has so
>far refused to heed the European Union's request that it put this in writing.
> Rushdie called on Germany and the EU to exert their economic leverage on
>Iran to force the issue.
> ``The bigger the stick, the better the effect,'' he said, adding: ``If the
>Germans were really serious about solving this problem, they could do it.''
> Foreign Minister Klaus Kinkel pursues a controversial policy of ``critical
>dialogue'' with Tehran, arguing that the best way for the West to gain
>influence in Iran is to preserve ties with its government and industry, not to
>sever them.
> ``Every time I meet Mr Kinkel, he tells me this. And then I say to him:
>``Well, if that's the case, then use that influence. In February the fatwa will
>be seven years old. I want finally to see a result of this influence.'''
>Rushdie told the magazine.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 04:24 Mon Jan 22 EXP: 4 :00 Thu Jan 25
>
>
> Iran playing with fire in Bahrain - Kuwait paper
> KUWAIT, Jan 22 (Reuter) - Kuwaiti newspapers accused Iran on Monday of
>fomenting riots in Bahrain and said Tehran's alleged involvement could provoke
>unspecified retaliation from Gulf Arab states and their Western allies.
> ``Iran should stop playing with fire,'' al-Seyassah and its sister paper
>the Arab Times said in an editorial.
> ``Member states of the Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) will not stand by as
>spectators and watch Bahrain crumble under Iran's so-called religious duty,''
>wrote Ahmad al-Jarallah, editor-in-chief of both newspapers.
> ``Perhaps also the countries of the alliance that liberated Kuwait will not
>simply stand idly by,'' he said, referring to the U.S.-backed coalition that
>ended an Iraqi occupation of Kuwait in the 1991 Gulf War.
> The GCC groups Bahrain, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Oman
>and Qatar.
> Iran denies involvement in anti-government protests that erupted in Bahrain
>in December 1994. The unrest has focused on demands for a return of parliament,
>dissolved in 1975.
> A fresh wave of riots this month by protesters from the island's Shi'ite
>majority brought a warning from the Sunni-dominated government that the
>military might intervene to crush the unrest.
> Jarrallah said Iranian attempts to destabilise Bahrain would only increase
>Iran's international isolation. Attempts at unrest would fail because of the
>loyalty or ordinary Bahrainis.
> ``Iran will not receive in Manama the same support it found in Beirut as no
>Bahraini will carry out tasks against their own country,'' he wrote.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 00:58 Mon Jan 22 EXP: 0 :00 Thu Jan 25
>
>
> PRESS DIGEST - Kuwait - Jan 22
> KUWAIT, Jan 22 (Reuter) - These are the leading stories in the Kuwaiti
>press on Monday. Reuters has not verified these stories and does not vouch for
>their accuracy:
> AL-WATAN
> - Bahrain: Direct accusations against Iran
> - Artists cannot be invited without approval of Information and Interior
>ministries
> - U.S.-Egypt talks to establish Middle East Development Bank
> - European currencies fall in Cairo
> AL-QABAS
> - Bahrain hints at marshal law to crush sabotage
> - Bid to arrest residence law violators
> - G7 countries welcome dollar rise
> - Sale of government shareholdings is not privatisation
> AL-SEYASSAH
> - 64 percent of Kuwaitis do not trust the government to solve the problem
>of stateless people
> - Bahrain renews determination to fight terrorism
> - United Arab Shipping Company signs $660 million contract with Japanese
>firms
> - Federal Reserve expected to keep interest rates unchanged at end of
>January meeting
> ARAB TIMES
> - Militants (in Egypt) vow revenge against United States
> - Bahrain points to Iran, cites confessions from protesters
> - Iraqi return likely to jolt oil market
> - Strong dollar, lower rates to help stimulate world economic growth
> KUWAIT TIMES
> - Gulf Arab states make progress towards building integrated defence system
> - Bahrain blames Iran for unrest
> - Gulf War health damage remains mystery after five years
> - Deposed emir controls large assets of Qatar
> AL-ANBA
> - Moscow expects rise in terrorism
> - Parliamentary panel to discuss budget deficit
> - Active trade in Cairo's bourse
> - G7 ministers agree measures to promote economic growth
>
>=END=
>
>
=END=
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 15:34:04 -0800 (PST)
From: esfan hesari
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Unsubscribe
Please please... DO NOT send any more massages..
Please unsubscribe me untill further notice.
Thank you
=END=
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 15:39:55 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: Re: The House's letter; a speculative post on homosexuality,liberation
and law
Folks,
I have seen many references to a statement from the Supreme Body on
Homosexuality. Unfortunately, living in Alaska, we do not get to see some of
the correspondence meant for United States. Is there a kind soul who could
post this statement for all of us to read?
Arsalan
Arsalan J. Sadighi
"Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
that is clearly none of your business!" Battista
=END=
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 16:03:27 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: Words and Values was-Re: farmers and intellectuals?
Dear Friends:
Forgive me for this one - it's intended as playful.
Stephen's post further illustrates the point I was attempting to make
in my initial comments regarding the need for greater word sensitivity.
This may sound very nit-picky and tedious. But it's important in Baha'i
consultation, to realize the relationship between words and values and the
emotive force of the spoken or written word. It is important in cross-
cultural relations and it's important in inter-disciplinary discourse.
Steven wrote:
>Your (Juan's) definition of an intellectual is quite different than that in
my New
>World Dictionary, which gives:
>
> 1. a person with intellectual interests
> 2. a person engaged in intellectual work
> 3. a member of the intelligentsia
>
>It defines intelligentsia as "the people regarded as, or regarding
themselves as, the educated and enlightened class."
Dictionaries are not always dependable. They provide "commonly
accepted" definitions. Those common definitions may change over time.
Because definitions are rather slippery, there is often a need within a
particular discipline to agree upon a specific denotative value of a term.
Juan's definition of "intellectual" is specific to social scientists.
The above definition of "intelligentsia" (another loaded word) is
very unsatisfactory. Being "regarded as" and "regarding (ones) self as" are
not the same thing. There are a few deluded individuals who regard me as an
intellectual. There are others who regard me as an anti-intellectual. I
don't regard myself as either.
We need to distinguish between seeming and being; between ascribed
status, assumed status, acquired status, and recognized status. It isn't
always easy, which is why Baha'u'llah has equated justice, with the exercise
of our individually capacities to investigate reality for ourselves - see
with our own eyes and hear with our own ears, and why the House of Justice
reminds us that "Consultation is the operating expression of justice in
human affairs." Because we have not yet completely understood or mastered
the art of Baha'i consultation, and because, ideally it brings together
people from diverse cultural, professional, intellectual and social
backgrounds, we cannot expect to use the same operative terms and
discursive tactics that we would use elsewhere and be clearly understood
I recognize Juan's status as a scholar and an intellectual. He
wrote "an approach championed by Alvin Gouldner, is to define intellectuals
not by their social niche but by their values and style of discourse. Gould
posits that intellectuals are characterized by a discourse of critical
reason that constantly calls into question statements based on authority
rather than reasoning." and that "constantly probe the status-quo, ever
seeking imporvements on it." I have some problems with this.
1. Not all those whose critical reason constantly calls into
question such statements, are adept at the art of discourse. They may be
intellectuals who appear to be quite the opposite.
2. There are some who are adept at displaying a discourse of
critical reason, questioning statements based on authority rather than
reason and constantly probing the status quo who's motives may be suspect,
or who are more interested in displaying their cleverness than seeking
truth. They may appear to be intellectuals when they are not.
3. If I accept Juan's definition, based on his authority - which he,
in part, bases on the authority of Gould, who I never heard of, can I truly
be said to be basing my acceptance of Juan's statement on the exercise of my
own critical reason or an I simply indulging in vicarious reason.
4. If I reject Juan's statement, which he basis on his own exercise
of critical reason - am I guilty of the henious crime of anti-intellectualism?
The term "layman" sometime ago, was described as "an individual with
no recognized status or expertise, as opposed to a professional person". But
the word has other implications. An individual with no knowledge, or
interest in astronomy would not be refered to as a lay astronomer whereas
someone who's hobby was astronomy, who had considerable knowledge and
expertise in the field - perhaps even greater expertise than some
professional astronomers, would nevertheless be a lay astonomer.
There are many areas of knowledge in which I'm completely ignorant;
yet I don't take kindly to being called ignorant.
Words also have a physiological effect as well, both on on the
speaker and the hearer. For example, the release of a full resonant,
prolonged or abrubt vowel sound, ( aaah or AA) sandwiched between the
Labiodential voiceless frictive (f) and a velar stop (k) can be a rather
cathartic exercise and it is no accident that the popular and frequently
used word it produces is derived from "frikken" & "focka" which meant to
"strike" or "hit", and later - "copulate". Sadly, it has become so
overused and laden with emotive and connotative value, that it has become
meaningless and of no value in Baha'i consultation.
Similarly, my wife flinches when she hears the words "nice" or
"happy". She insists she is "not nice" and "never happy". The words have a
feel too them that have always made her uncomfortable (English is her second
language). Her aversion to these words developed long before she was aware
that "nice" originally meant "stupid" (ne=without + scire=to know - source
of "science") and happy originally meant "silly". The sounds of the words
had a negative effect on her. There are numerous other people who do not
like to be called nice because it sounds insincere.
**********************************************************
To wear a shirt that's relatively clean,
you never have to launder off the dirt
as long as you have two to choose between
and always change into the relatively cleaner shirt.
(Piet Hein on party politics)
***********************************************************---
Gordon McFarlane e-mail: MCFARLANE@upanet.uleth.ca
919 11th Street South
Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada
T1J 2P7
403-327-2987
=END=
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 96 15:30 PST
To: asadighi@ptialaska.net
From: Megha Shyam
Subject: US and THEM
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
>It used to be native Baha'is and non-native Baha'is; Afro-American Baha'is
>and non-Afro-American Baha'is; Persian Baha'is and American Baha'is; now it
>is gay and straight Baha'is; intellectual Baha'is and those who can NOT
>combine their deep love to Baha'u'llah (with all its consequences) with the
>active use of their mind, reason, and intellect.'
>What is becoming very obvious to me is that we have not yet understood what
>unity is all about. Is it going to be 'us and them' forever? Then again, I
>am no intellectual. What do I know?
?STOP THE INSANITY!
>Arsalan
Talisman folks:
This posting hit home; for many a time I have felt that pigeonholing
approach to
branding the friends into to neat categories has been disastrous. Infact, this
is the case in every culture and every society I know off starting from the
caste
system amongst the Hindus (the orginal meaning of caste comes from the sanskrit
workd Verna - color), to tribal and feudal societies in Europe and the
middle east and
africa, to categorizing christians.
We need to clearly understand and appreciate unity from diversity. From my
perspective,
this calls for looking for common ground and looking for the best in us in
our manner,
tounge and attitude. Having been on the sidelines for the past 5 weeks or
so, I am
appaled at the the venom expressed. What a difference it would make between
having
a variety of different ideas and at the same time make the effort to see the
best from the ideas
instead of adopting the political model de jour whether it comes from US,
Canada or Europe.
I hope we can all agree to always take the high road at all times even when
we have a
disagreement on opinions expressed here. I believe that we need to ask
ourselves
How is my posting or response to another posting improve the
understanding of the
problem being discussed at the moment.
How can I bring a postive tone to the discussions here?
How can I express a disagreement without the venom or sarcasm
Unless we all show a collective leadership in holding to high standards, we
will be no
different from the political conventions, a school board meeting, sometimes
even a Baha'i
meeting. Over the past 31 years as a Baha'i, I have certainly seen my
share of it. It is
hightime we rise above this.
Megha Shyam (meghas@sparcom.com)
=END=
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 15:26:40 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: RE. The question of Military de-mobilization an answer
To: talisman@indiana.edu
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: military de-mobilization
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 96 08:18:29+030
Dear Derek:
" What happens now when an occupation or business is past its time : it
closes down . The people employed have to find
other means of employment and ways to make their lives meaningful. I
do believe that occupational displaced people should not be made
to suffer the brunt of such a realignment of society but that is an
entirely different subject. This was the question I was trying to
address...not that
demobilization should not happen, but how, how fast, what are the
mechanics
of demobilization and re-introducing those employed in military
activities
(even the making of the war machinery) into peace time production and
employment. To just "stop" would create such a financial burden on
society
that economies would collapse. There needs to be redirection,
restructuring, re-absorbing of that work force into productive economic
activities, and re-education. Since it is not likely that
demilitarization
is going to happen immediately, then we have time to start working
forthe
process to start NOW, in whatever ways we can.
Answer:
There are two levels ; the people actually in the armed services and
those engaged in production of weaponry .
One simple way to reduce the war machine is to limit enrollment . This
can have the effect of improving the quality level of those serving
which Baha u llah recommended . Some countries like the UK have all
ready embark on such a policy of reduced intake. Unfortunately other
countries are starting to considor expanding their armed forces
.Germany is one country that may end up expanding . Japan is under
pressure from the USA to look into increasing their defence forces.
Another immediate reduction can take place by offering early
retirement on generous pension and severance terms . If you offer a
person at 40 the same pension terms they would receive at 55 with a
cash bonus . that enables the person to re-enter society without
disadvantage . If you plan on a for example 3% early retirement on a
yearly basis attrition rate . then it could become an attractive option
for members of the armed services .
As far as the defense industry business is concerned there is no easy
alternatives . A company involved in producing guns will have to
realize they are in the engineering business and find new products to
produce . The only other alternative will be for them to close down .
However if you slowly scale down the military machine it is much easier
for business to plan in new products . I do not think the scale-down
can not happen without financial pain to western society . It could
mean the transfering back of some of the labor intensive industries
from the Third World countries or the restructuring of society by find
means of providing employment . however there are many aspects to
creating a new balanced society . A problem that is not being addressed
is the high cost of food production in the developed world and these
methods are often transfered to the third world countries. I am
refering to the dependance on chemicals and machinery in agricultural
production . It is starting in energy imput to cost more to produce in
energy the food energy than the resulting energy output. We need to
look closely the urbanization of society and see if this is not a blank
wall we are heading for . Some historians have speculated that the
decline of the Mayan society in terms of its sociopolitical structures
could have been caused in part by the breaking down of the food supply
system. As their population grew more and more urbanized with the
resulting population explosion they did outgrow their immediate
agricultural resource base. Some estimates place the Mayan population
at 5 million in C700 CE in the 100 or so main centres . Yet within 200
years this population was down to 500,000 . Another civilization
effected by urbanization and unchecked growth was the Sumerian
Civilization . Although there are no one single reason for its decline
. This civilization which developed writing ,the wheel and domesticated
creals . Also created a marvellous system of irrigation unfortunately
over several centuries this caused the water table to rise resulting in
salination of the land . Their crops yields after 2400 BCE started to
drop. As they weakened as a society the food supply became a major
factor in hastening that decline . Other areas are witness to the
effects of unbridled growth for example North Africa which is now
primarily a desert was 2000 years ago a rich area of food production
indeed it was the bread basket for the Roman Empire. We have not
started to cost out the effects of industrialization yet . It could be
the overdependant on the production of military weapons is the achilles
heel that topples the western based world economy . In that case we
would find ourselves returning to a more village centered economy over
a period of a 200 or 300 years . I would not see us losing the
technical knowledge we have such as computors etc. But if you take away
a large slice of the production sales potential from an industrial base
. It is difficult to see how to replace that with similar production .
Factories had a need for a labor force hence the labor force moved to
the factory or the other way round. Result other services to cater for
the needs of the labor force were created . Other factories moved into
the area to take advantage of the trained labor force and support
services .Result urban squalor or cities etc etc I am not saying that
large cities are bad as such , just that they are normally difficult
and expensive to maintain and run . how does this help somebody in the
armed forces or a person who works in an industry that produces for the
defence industry . It does not, I just see hard times ahead for the
world;s economy . If the world decides that war is not honorable and
repugnant to human behaviour . Then there will be a major cost involved
until the world , nations and communities evolve into a peace based
society . Nobody should imagine that is going to be easy or quick or
simple . Do I think that the money based USA model is a bad one well it
is based on Materialism , there is nothing in the Writings to support
that .
I am surprised that Linda sees no fault in Baha i youth joining the
armed forces in the present situation . I can see no justification and
much from the Writings to advice against it .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
As for youth from Baha'i families entering into the military, I
have
also noticed this. Is this a left over from TV glamorization of the
military? Is this a rebellion against what youth see as their parents
thing? Is this a need to enter into a community which is so structured
that
decisions are made for them? Is it a way to gain a "free" education
and see
the world? I don't know...good question, and one worth pursuing.
Love,
Bev.
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 16:14:59 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Exile in Paradise
Dear Talismans,
As Toni Morrison suggested in her Nobel Lecture when accepting the Prize for
Literature in 1993,
"Narrative is radical, creating us at the very moment is is created."
In his flow of metaphoric description, Terry's narrative often approaches
poetry and, as reader, I felt recreated.
Thanks, Terry, for the vision.
Best,
Sandy
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 96 10:11:49 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg"
To: jwalbrid
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Homosexuality
> Well, legitimizing homosexual marriage would probably solve our teaching
> problems in the US. It would undoubtedly also improve feasts.
>
> john walbridge
>
Dear John:
As a kind or oracular pronouncement, I can appreciate its brevity and
mysterious lack of content. But do you mean anything by this statement?
Yours,
Stephen F.
=END=
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 19:57:25 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: US and THEM
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Megha Shyam" ,
Cc: "Talisman"
Beloved Megha,
I can't agree with you more. Thank you for pointing these things out.
It's always helpful to have a reality check.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
From: Dave10018@aol.com
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 20:24:42 -0500
To: mfoster@tyrell.net, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Homosexuality/Conscience
In a message dated 96-01-23 17:26:47 EST, mfoster@tyrell.net (Mark A. Foster)
writes:
> I agree that we can learn from it. Outward appearance, regardless of
>its condition, is an emanation of the plane of spirit, and, on some
>level, it is the stepped down animus of the Holy Spirit (the manifested
>purposeful power of God). The key, IMO, is for each of us to claim the
>dominion over this world that we were promised at the beginning of the
>Baha'i-Adamic universal cycle and, with the assistance of the spirit of
>faith, to facilitate all the kingdoms of creation to more fully manifest
>their own degrees of spirit (purposeful, or loving and knowing, power).
>
>
Sorry, Mark, but this is too much jargon for me! I think I agree with you,
except that God only knows what is right and wrong, the institutions only
know the rules they have to apply.
Mark, I quote bob dylan:
In the dime stores and bus stations
People talk of situations
Read books repeat quotations,
Draw conclusions on the walls
Some speak of the future.
My love she speaks softly.
She knows there's no success like failure
And failure's no success at all.
(love minus zero/no limit, 1965)
I agree with the optimism you express in the last paragraph.
keep on truckin,
david taylor
=END=
[end of 1/23/96 session]
Talisman emails received 1/24/96
---------------------------------------------------------
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Homosexuality/Conscience
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 20:50:56 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dave Taylor wrote to talisman@indiana.edu:
D >Sorry, Mark, but this is too much jargon for me! I think I agree with you,
D >except that God only knows what is right and wrong, the institutions only
D >know the rules they have to apply.
Dave,
Obviously, I agree with you that national and local assemblies do
not necessarily know what is right and wrong. What I was saying is that
only the institutions have the right to determine, through application
of Baha'i principles and ordinances, whether someone should be regarded
as having committed a wrong and what, if any, penalties should be
attached. As individuals, we have the duty to be free of judgmentalism
(while, at the same time, being discerning in our associations with
others). As we know, the Guardian was always cautioning the believers
not to go around playing assembly to one another.
The second part of the message was *intentionally* mysterious. I
have some suspicions about the subject, but they are as yet unformed, so
I preferred to just say it as I did.
Warm greetings to you,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion College Faculty *
*1995 President, Kansas Sociological Society Owner, Baha'i Studies List *
*Director, Institute for Reality Science [sm] Co-Moderator, Baha'i List *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Staff, 3 CompuServe Religion Fora, incl. Baha'i Section Leader (72642,3105) *
*Chief Baha'i Chat Host, America Online Ethics & Religion Forum (TFPMark) *
*Sysop, Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1) mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The Prophets of God have been the Servants of Reality; Their
Teachings constitute the science of reality." - `Abdu'l-Baha
"The sciences of today are bridges to reality; if then they lead not
to reality, naught remains but fruitless illusion." - `Abdu'l-Baha
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 21:27:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: homosexuality again
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: , "Talisman"
>Dear Richard, I suppose that Derek the Dean of the Shrimp School of Economics
>and Waldo the Walrus Barer's postings have disabused you of any ideas
>about my
>being "tender hearted." You probably are more correct than they on this
>matter. However, I just want to make sure that you know that tender hearts
>don't necessarily go hand in hand with soft heads.
Linda: I guess I am no longer allowed any endearments as it spoils
dignified discourse and I imagine you would make my skull pretty soft if
I ever suggested your head was that way. There seems to be those who
want to characterize you as "one mean mama" but I have inhaled the
beautiful fragrance of your spirit from a thousand miles and it informs
the message you have written.
I have been trying on Baha'i Discuss to champion a "third way" to
appproach all the difficulties you have described. There is truth in
everything you have written. I have borne the ridicule you describe and
am in complete sympathy with Baha'is trying to find their way in a
hostile world. I wish if it were possible you could peruse the
statements I have made there so you would know my sincerity.
I believe the "House" offered a compromise (If that's the right way to
say it) in it's statement for those with ears to hear--but ideologues
never seem to settle for part of a loaf. IMHO, what we should do is
offer a warm and loving environment to our Gay and Lesbian brothers and
sisters not encourage vain and deceptive hopes because we understand
their pain. I don't know how to say it any other way and be true to
myself.
I said on Baha'i Discuss that I felt Baha'is who are Gay interprtet
disagreement on this issue as rejection and I think there is a
corresponding truth to that. But I would like to assure each and
everyone of you that I am trying the best I can to erradicate any such
faults from my own heart. It's the best I can do. I hope I can still be
percieved as a friend.
I hope we will meet at Bosch and please go easy on my head.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
From: Geocitizen@aol.com
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 22:48:35 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: A Fistful of 9-Dollar Bills
Dear Derek and Burl,
I suppose in a certain twisted way I should feel honored to have become the
focus of your perennial cooperative intellectual hooliganism here on Talisman
(that phrase may sound negative, but I assure you I mean it in the most
*loving* possible way) in that, if I keep it up, I may provide some slight
respite for Linda.
Just for the record: although probably the "strange chap" who set Derek off
was indeed me, I never said that economists as people are immoral. Only that
economics as a modern social science is founded on premises that deny the
existence of any moral framework other than market forces and the desires of
the human ego.
Gee, that is kind of dry... maybe I need a slicker writing style like what
you guys got. "Justice: It Isn't Just For Breakfast Anymore!" Hmmm. Still
needs work, I think.
Loveyababe, don't ever change. Have your people call my people. Ciao.
Kevin
=END=
From: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 96 19:35:03 -0600 (CST)
Subject: THE TERM "NON-BAHA'I
To: talisman@indiana.edu
R. Stockman wrote:
Personally, I don't know why people object to the term non-Baha'i. It'
neutral; it doesn't mean anti-Baha'i, nor is it condescending like
"pre-Baha'i." I have no problem considering myself a non-Christian or a
non-Jew.
Dann May responded:
Rob, if my mother (a "non-Baha'i") is any indication, she resents the term,
and urges the Baha'is to find a better designation. Personally. I prefer
the terms "friends" or "guests"
Warmest greetings, Dann May, Philosophy, OK City Univ.
---
* WR 1.32 # 669 * All human beings have an innate urge to know. Aristotle
=END=
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 20:43:01 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
Subject: RE: Re sex and values
Philip wrote:
>This was the strongest and most complete argument against the Bahai
>position on homosexuality I have yet read.
>
>Moreover, it seems to be a very solid attack on the basic claim that
>Bahai represents a new unifying religion.
>
>As Derek Jacoby said in Dead Again, I can't wait to see what happens
>next.
Life never fails to amuse me. When I read the post my thoughts were:
"Thank God there is the Baha'i Faith to bring a firm moral standard and
understanding to the world."
Question: Did Philip and I read the same post or does this dichotomy of
view reflect where we are each coming from?
Doug Myers
nightbrd@humboldt1.com
"Nothing survives but the way we live our lives." JB
=END=
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 20:36:50 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu, belove@sover.net
From: nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
Subject: Rd: Forgiveness
Dear Philip and all Talismanians,
I have been following this thread of forgiveness with some interest. It is
not a
concept included in my personal philosophy until I began the process I call "the
humanization of Doug" in 1975 and got a boost when I became a Baha'i four years
ago.
I just finished reading an interesting book that will lead me to re-evaluate the
importance of forgiveness and to reread the entire thread.
The book is "Saved by the Light" by Dannion Brinkley, Villard Books, New York,
1994, ISBN 0-679-43176-4, with an introduction by Dr. Raymond Moody, the author
of "Life After Life". Dannion had his first near-death experience and met
Dr. Moody
before "Life After Life" was published. Dr. Moody says that Dannion's
experience is
"one of the most remarkable" he had heard. They became friends and have worked
together.
Let me quote a short portion from this book concerning forgiveness:
"The life review that came with this second near-death experience was
wonderful. Unlike my first, which was filled with mayhem, anger, and even
death,
this one was a pyrotechnic display of good deeds. When people ask me what it is
like to relive a good life in the embrace of the Beings of Light, I tell
them it is like a
great Fourth of July fireworks display, in which your life burst before you
in scenes
that are spiced with the emotions and feelings of everyone in them.
"After the life review was over, the Being of Light gave me the
opportunity to
forgive everyone who had ever crossed me. That meant that I was able to
shake the
hatred that I had built up against many people. I didn't want to forgive
many of
these people because I felt that the things they had done to me were
unforgivable.
They had hurt me in business and in my personal life and made me feel
nothing for
them but anger and disdain.
"But the Being of Light told me I had to forgive them. If I
didn't, he let me
know, I would be stuck at the spiritual level that I now occupied.
"What else could I do? Next to spiritual advancement, these earthly
trespasses seemed trivial. Forgiveness flooded my heart, along with a
strong sense of
humility. It was only then that we began to move upward."
This is all the more remarkable since before Dannion's first near-death
experience he
was a tough, violent man who had been in a Intelligence unit where he was an
assassin during Vietnam. If you want an interesting, thought provoking, yet
easy read this is the book.
Doug Myers
nightbrd@humboldt1.com
"Nothing survive but the way we live our lives." JB
=END=
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 19:58:52 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Smart's (trust me)
Ok.. Hi ya'll
Well, after a weekend with Steven Scholl in the Seattle area and having my
eyes opened to a bunch of things... I get the glimmer of a light bulb. Ding!
All this talk on intellect-who has it and who doesn't??? Well, Steven said
something I thought was absolutely brilliant on Sunday during our quite
meager attempt to have Adult Classes. What he said was that maybe "there
are/is 100 or so people in the "scholar" range of the Bahai Faith." And
that is a might small number, compared to what a few million Bahai's. And
with that a smaller portion able to write/translate "excellently written"
"scholarly" Bahai Material. --and along my main piece of the Bahai
Community at large, around the world not being ready for whatever has yet
to be written/transcribed. We have yet to solve the problem of illiteracy
in the world.
And there was a brief discussion on one of the e-list about education levels
of materials... As the House writes now to about the level of 1st year
college. Is that right? or is it lower than that. Rather than take off to
tim-buck-two of some odyssey of the Writing we don't yet have translated...
Write a "study guide/tech manual" of what we do have, and ways to study it
to assist us raise the standard. IOW... grab the attention of the millions
rather than the "100's"
nuf said
Margreet
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 17:58:29 +1300 (NZDT)
To: Dave10018@aol.com, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Homosexuality & Paintings
Dear Dave,
I have looked at your artworks at
http://www.xenonarts.com/artists/dtaylor/dtaylor1.html
and -- though I do not know that much about art and therefore feel
disinclined to try to make intelligent comments -- I (1) think I can see
why you have over-ridden the Guardian's tastes and feel good about Picasso,
(2) liked the colours you used, (3) would certainly put one (or more) on my
best wall. I do not see any pumpkin or Jack'o'Lantern pictures, but I
predict and long and successful career in which you will make up for this
deficit.
Did I see a strong influence of Cezanne?
Dave, I read your long letter to Steve re. homosexuality, and I must say I
admire your generosity of spirit and courage. Obviously I was never going
to agree with everything you wrote, but I don't think either of us mind
these "differences". Your prediction concerning increased acceptance of
homosexuality is one instance of this difference of understanding or
orientation. I cannot think that is correct -- beyond the very short term
anyway...
Ohh, while I am here... there was an exhibition of the extremely
controversial works of the gay American photographer Robert Mapplethorp
(sp?) in Wellington recently... The fellow that brought them here said
that NZ was less provincial re. this kind of stuff than much of the US.
Dunno. Maybe more innocent. Anyhow: there was a fuss from the morally
upright, but the exhibition was well attended by every sort of person (I
think)...
The local TV station here in Dunedin is refusing to show a gay programme
(even after 10pm), and this has made national news...
Appreciatively,
Robert.
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 96 18:59:21 PST
Subject: RE: "Exile in Paradise" Pt 1
To: talisman@indiana.edu, TLCULHANE@aol.com
Hi again,
Please send me copies of your Road to Shiraz stuff. I wasn't on
Talisman then.
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/23/96
Time: 18:59:22
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 01:01:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Jonah Winters
To: talisman
Subject: Habermas on Homosexuality
I am taking a class on the communication theories of Jurgen
Habermas and his discourse ethics. Today in class the discussion turned
towards the issue-that-never-dies-on-Talisman. I post here an excerpt
transcribed from my recorded class notes. No comment, other than that I
found it relevant. Oh, the prof is Marsha Hewitt, from the University of
Toronto.
"I think that we have to be clear about what argumentation, or
resistance, is. The kind of communicative action Habermas has in mind
allows all points of view, whatever they are. All points of view have to
be admitted if there's a norm that's been disputed, a norm about something
about how we should live or what we should do. Take an example of a norm
that's been hotly contested, and this is a norm that's very much a
burning issue, namely the norm of heterosexuality. According to normative
theological discourse, heterosexuality represents God's creation, God's
intention for creation. It represents a truth about creation and how it
works and should be. It is the divinely-sanctioned way about expressing
loving relations and marriage, both between individuals and also between
the Church and God. etc. That's a hotly-contested norm. Now, it's
contested by people who don't believe that, people who are part of these
theological communities but who think that that norm is irrational,
harmful, and unjust. For Habermas, it isn't enough simply to say that.
"Oh, really, so it is just a matter of my opinion versus your opinion?"
he would say. Objecting in that way is meaningless. How are we going to
find out whether or not heterosexuality is what God wants, whether it is
true for human society? We have to talk about this, because there are a
whole bunch of people who are hurt and treated unjustly because of the
acceptance of that norm. How are we going to know if this norm is true?
Is God going to tell us? No. We may know in our faith, through prayerful
meditation, that it is true for us, but that doesn't matter. You can have
all the prayerful meditation you want, it's not going to convince me. We
have to have some other way of doing this. Unless God speaks to all of us
and we all hear it, it doesn't mean anything. There's only one way for
Habermas. The only way to come to the truth of that norm is to debate it,
which means that all points of view have to be included, it means that
everyone who's affected by the acceptance of that norm is required to
give reasons for why they think what they think. Why? So that we can be
in a position to act in ways that are then in accordance with our coming
to a mutual decision on the truth of a norm."
Like I said, no comments. Anything I would say has surely been said at
least once before! :-) Interesting stuff, though, isn't it?
-Jonah
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jonah and Kari Winters
33 Endean Avenue / Toronto, Ontario / M4M-1W5 / (416) 461-3527
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 96 18:54:33 PST
Subject: RE: (mer)Maids , Law and Modernity
To: talisman@indiana.edu, TLCULHANE@aol.com
Cc: 748-9178@mcimail.com
Terry,
You've done it for me. This sense of a new way of describing the
inclusiveness of our Faith, as a way of transcending the dichotomy of
Fundamentalism and Secularism is so close to the verbal formulae I've
been looking for.
And also, you've open the door a little more on the valley of unity
and that really helps.
Great going.
I agree with you about so many who speak of the faith not catching
this particular passageway. .
I feel like I need to hear a lot more about this.Could you just say
the same thing over about four different ways?
Warm regards,
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/23/96
Time: 18:54:33
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 96 18:44:06 PST
Subject: FW: Re: Homosexuality
To: talisman@indiana.edu
On Tue, 23 Jan 1996 13:02:17 -0500 Alex Tavangar wrote:
>At 09:09 AM 1/23/96 -0500, John wrote:
>
>>Well, legitimizing homosexual marriage would probably solve our
teaching
>>problems in the US. It would undoubtedly also improve feasts.
>>
>>john walbridge
>>
>
>What will this seemingly easy ruling do to the progress of the
Baha'i Faith
>throughout the rest of the world? What vails might it create that
will
>seriously hinder the spiritual transformation of the planet? As
important
>as this issue is, there are other maladies that are choking the
simplest
>forms of life on our planet. Ailments that must be dealt with much
care,
>skill and planning.
>
>Even God must prioritize.
>
>Alex B. Tavangar
>
Does God, whose eye is on the sparrow, Triage?
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/23/96
Time: 18:44:07
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 96 21:07 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: BED & Breakfast
Derek: The first BED experience was not up to my expectations, but
that is probably to be expected.
I had high hopes for Baha'i Economists Defense, but it was a boring
pendantic affair. Grown men and women having the most convoluted and
meaningless conversations -- one gent in a Grateful Dead T-shirt asked a
young economics major "what's your cosign?"
Men were comparing the size and functions of their calculators; women were
wimpering about something called "the numeric ceiling" and showing off their
designer checks. No wonder economics is called The Dismal Science.
However, being boring and dismal is not in direct conflict with the sacred
texts, while strife and contention certainly are. As unpleasant as
economists may be in group, I honestly don't think they are lobbying for
special rights within the community while it may appear so to those not
cursed with economic proclivities. Really, as you know, Derek, they are less
offensive one on one. After all, the Cause of God is for *everyone* not
simply third world impoverished tribal people and the college professors who
love them. God wants them all, and to discriminate in our hearts or our
minds is to be out of tune with the Will of God. We may not condone their
trickle down voodoo theories, nor advocate economics as a valid course of
studies (it is, sooo "old world" compared to say, studying the anceint
rituals of aboriginals), but their souls are precious before God. We must
recall that had the Lord wanted us all to be sociologists and literature
professors, we would have been born wearing tweed jackets and bequethed
Vovlo wagons and german shepherds upon our birth. A little diversity never
hurt anyone, a lot of diversity can scare the heck out of ya.
Burl (I do own a Volvo wagon) Barer
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
Unlimited!
********************************************************
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 00:11:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: "Stephen R. Friberg"
Cc: friberg@will.brl.ntt.jp, Gordon McFarlane ,
talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: farmers and intellectuals?
Stephen:
I am frustrated by your message because I find it to jumble together a
number of incompatible themes. On the one hand, it is more
intellectual-bashing, accusing them of being pampered poseurs, in the
tradition of the American Right. On the other, it accuses them of not
being radical enough, of accepting too much of the status quo, an
argument associated with the anarchist Left, as in Chomsky. The message
essentializes intellectuals, lumping together medieval Confucian
bureaucrats with Leninist cadres in an ahistorical manner. The bald
assertion that all intellectuals are always in the corner of the power
elite is put forward with no discussion, qualification, or evidence.
There is an assumption that only by completely rejecting the norms of
liberal democracies could intellectuals be virtuous--but surely the
Communist debacle should have put paid to such jejune notions? The
underlying assumption of the goodness of oppositional stances and
radicalism toward the status quo is not correlated with Baha'i teachings
and current policies, which seem rather designed to ensure that
intellectuals *are* obedient to the state, uninvolved in politics or
public struggles for justice, quiescent, and censored.
One can use a word any way one likes, of course, but I said specifically
that I employ the word "intellectual" in the social-science sense of
modern symbol-workers who employ critical reason. I really don't care
what the dictionary definition is here, just as I would not particularly
rely on the dictionary definition of other technical terms in the social
sciences; schizophrenia, for instance, which is usually defined
inaccurately.
On Tue, 23 Jan 1996, Stephen R. Friberg wrote:
> As you well know, throughout the
> ages, the intelligentsia has primarily been a creature of the elite,
> be it the imperial throne in China, the absolutist king in the
> emerging European nation states, the dictatorship in the communists
> states, or the bourgeoisie in modern democratic countries.
I fear you have jumbled up all sorts of things here and made
unsupportable allegations. First of all, I maintain that the group I
called "intellectuals" are a *modern* phenomenon; I do not believe it is
useful to talk about "intellectuals" all through history. The tiny
sliver of urban literati existing before the 18th-century was primarily
bureaucrats, merchants and clergymen; none of these would necessarily
qualify as intellectuals under my second definition, and most, as you say,
were intertwined with the Establishment. On the other hand, it is not
true that these premodern symbol-workers were always pro-Establishment;
the clergy, as I recall, had some difficulties with some of the English
kings :-); elements of the bourgeoisie were involved in the English and
French Revolutions, even if these are no longer considered bourgeois
revolutions tout court.
> While it
> is true that there is such a thing as a worker-intellectual -- I'm
> proud to say that my dad considered himself one -- in main,
> intellectuals have tended to concentrate where the power is (or might
> be).
I recommend that you read Gramsci on this issue. Intellectuals in the
occupational sense can go either way, but those who engage in the culture
of critical discourse can become oppositional to bourgeois or commisar
hegemony, as we have seen in our own lifetimes.
Anyway, your Chomskyan critique of intellectuals as pillars of the
Establishment seems a neo-Marxist critique. Could you remind me what is
wrong from a Baha'i point of view with intellectuals serving their
government and society? Robert Reich did not become evil just by
becoming labor secretary (or earlier, accepting a position at Harvard);
and had the voters not taken such a strong turn Right in the
congressional elections of 1994, some of his ideas, such as raising the
minimum wage or expanding worker training might well be law now and would
have benefitted workers much more than a street-corner manifesto.
> I found Charles Cooper's remarks concerning whether or not the
> government funded broadcasting services were liberal or not to
> be entirely apropo. Paraphrasing him a bit wildly, he said that they
> were not liberal, rather they represented the thinking of the
> American elite.
This assumes that there is one, single, undifferentiated "American
elite," with a single viewpoint, which is found on Public Broadcasting.
If you do not think there is a difference between William F. Buckley and
Barney Frank, much less between Gingrich and Chomsky, then you have a
very odd idea of homogeneity. That said, I decry as much as anyone the
media withdrawal from covering labor and the poor; there is no longer a
labor reporter at the New York Times. But compare coverage of the poor
on PBS and commercial television, and you will find a significant difference.
*Commercial* television, incidentally, has standing orders to avoid
portrarying the struggles of workers and the poor, which is an open
secret in Hollywood and is coming out now in some memoirs. What drives
conservatives crazy about Public Television is that it has not been given
the same orders to the same extent.
> My experience with much of the American intelligentsia is that they to
> tend to pose as radicals bucking the system, or as you say:
>
> . . . constantly call(ing) into question statements based on authority
> rather than reasoning. Intellectuals question and probe the status
> quo, ever seeking improvements in it.
>
> I think that most intellectuals, regardless of how they regard
> themselves, are in support of some status quo. Where, in fact,
> do they get their ideas if it is not from some status quo somewhere?
You usually think more clearly than this. First of all, there is a big
body of research on these issues that you seem completely to ignore.
Second of all, you have no way of knowing whether any intellectual's
radicalism is a "pose." You simply slander an entire class of people by
accusing them of hypocrisy; I thought you disapproved of polemic. This
sort of statement is standard fare in the neo-conservative attack on
universities, which is an attack undertaken to weaken their autonomy from
the corporate elite. You have to decide, incidentally, whether you want
to be Chomsky or Allan Bloom. They don't agree.
> In this forum, we see discussion that is informed very strongly
> by current debates in American political and intellectual circles.
> For example, the attack on the establishment in Washington, a
> prominent feature in American politics for the last 15 years, is
> mirrored in Talisman by attacks on Wilmette and Haifa. The
> American infatuation with its legal system too has its Talismanian
> counterpart.
This is perhaps the most unfair and most outrageous thing you have ever
said here. American Baha'i intellectuals had put their *hopes* in
Wilmette and Haifa as alternatives to corrupt Washington. And then, to
their complete astonishment, Baha'i authorities went on to act toward
them in ways any objective observer would decry. What you see is not a
knee-jerk habit of criticizing authority but disappointment and
frustration with real problems, *problems for which the mechanisms of the
current Baha'i community supply no redress*. But, by the way, I still
have a great deal of hope in Haifa, the last refuge of a tottering
civilization.
As for legal remedies, I keep trying to remind you that I lived a decade
of my life in countries often lacking in due process and other human
rights, and I guarantee you it is better to have such rights than not to
have them. Civil rights inscribed in law and legal practice are a valuable
bulwark against arbitrary power, and if you don't believe that I suggest
you try living in Iraq for a while. Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha wanted
more than mere civil liberties; but they wanted civil liberties as a
start, and they never envisaged abolishing them.
> Yours respectfully,
> Stephen Friberg
>
> P.S. To me, the older Baha'i intelligentsia, a product of much
> different times, are much more radical and in keeping with the
> definition of intellectuals as you define it. We are, I think,
> much too much a creation of our comfortable, non-demanding circumstances
> to have had to question deeply the rightness of the established order.
Rejecting the status quo can be good or bad; it depends on what the
status quo is, which parts of it are rejected, and whether the rejection
is coming from the Right or the Left. By the way, some of us haven't led
such pampered lives; David Langness and Terry Culhane were in Vietnam; I
was in Beirut during the war; and Linda had to live several years in
Escanaba, Michigan :-).
=END=
From: Dave10018@aol.com
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 02:14:55 -0500
To: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: THE TERM "NON-BAHA'I
Dann,IMHOfriend or geust is better than non-Baha'i(although "friend" has a
history of being used as a synonym for Baha'i) but all three are better than
"seeker" when that term is used for all geusts at a Baha'i event, or even all
non-Baha'is. Round these parts people really do use the term that way.
sigh....
dave taylor
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 02:15:46 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: THE TERM "NON-BAHA'I
Dear Dann and all ,
For some years I have referred to people as friends of the Faith .
Lately , depending on the context , I have stoppped doing that . It still
sets up ther "others " identity on the bais of how it revolves around the
word "Bahai " . I have now simply referred to my aquaintances and friends in
the manner they choose to be known , if any , in a religious context e.g.
Jewish , Christian . Bahau llah seems to address humanity by reference to
the "people of Baha " and the "people of the world e.g. humanity . perhaps we
could simply refer to our co-religionists by their own identification or
simply as the people of the world or humankind .
My mother must have met your mother . :)
warm regards , terry
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 96 02:05 EST
From: Dariush Lamie <0007368608@mcimail.com>
To: "talisman@indiana.edu"
Subject: Re. from Birkland 1/22
-- [ From: Dariush Lamie * EMC.Ver #2.3 ] --
Dear friends,
Since the subject of opposition has been raised, I would like to share with you
a few points:
A) Who will attack the Faith?
The Beloved Guardian mentions the following people and organizations would
attack the Faith:
1- Leaders of religions
2- The hosts of the world, whether material, cultural or political.
3- People jointly and successively from all over the world such as Africa,
America, Europe, India and China...
4- Organized forces of superstition and corruption.
B) Who will defend the Faith?
The Beloved Guardian says: ( I am paraphrasing)
1- Our first source of protection is the sacred Writings which would offer
guidance to both individuals and institutions. Such as the Will and Testament
of Abdul-Baha and many more...
2- Our beloved Baha'i institution's guidance.
B) What are the fruits of opposition:
1- Purification and strengthening of the followers.
2- Spread the Faith abroad and marking it as an independent religion. (the
opposition has no harm to the Cause at all).
C) Rhythm of Growth:
1- The time of crisis is followed by a time of *Triumph*, Baha'i Institutions
and the followers. The Tree will blossoms.
Lovingly,
Dariush Lamie
=END=
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 23:43:40 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: RE , apology to economists .
To: burl@bmi.org
My dear Burl my best friend
Why are people on Talisman reading our private postings . It is a weird
list , the chap who called Economists immoral seems to have retracted .
Others though seem to relaise the dire situation Economists aere in by
appealing to some higher sense of Unity . About your point BED was
boring you need to get more into the flow charts to really get excited.
Maybe we should tell everybody we were teasing them , no it is much
better to clamour for equal rights and respect for Economists. Richard
Logan says he has a glass jaw , wow I am going to video that first
meeting between Linda and Richard. Watch me tender you me boyo !crunch
tinkle tinkle . Any way the local medics are very good . I can teach
you self defence Richard to help you against Linda . It is called
running very fast , I think you need to sprint over 100 metres at about
an even 11 seconds , and good luck. If she brings her shi'ite monster
girls it is all over . Try grovelling it might help
Warmest Regards from your best friend.
Derek
=END=
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 96 23:55 PST
To: Juan R Cole
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: farmers and intellectuals?
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Juan Cole said:
"jejune"
This is the second time in six months that Juan has used jejune.
Out here in agriculture and farm country, jejune is considered the
pentultimate insult. Perhaps it is the cultural context; perhaps in the
Ivory Towers of Michigan common folks don't blush and cringe at the word --
but here, in rural hard-working America where we take food, nourishment, and
insults seriously, terming something "jejune" is an invitation to a knuckle
sandwich. If Juan keeps saying jejune in hopes that it will lose its sting,
or we will become dulled to it, I think his efforts are ill advised -- I
can't imagine the good professor using it simply for its shock value --
perhaps Juan should use "insipid" and be done with it. That's a word we hear
so often, we're used to it.
Rural Burl
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
Unlimited!
********************************************************
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 01:48:11 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: Words and Values additional info.
After I posted my previous ramblings, in which I mentioned the
physiological effect of words, I read an item on Jonah Winters "Ha Ha" list,
which provides further evidence in support of my argument.
Percentage of rats that developed leukemia after hearing a tape of
Pat Buchanan's republican convention speech: 19
After being read "Pat the Bunny": 2
What further proof is required?
**********************************************************
"Even at our most believing we have our serious reservations, just as even
at our most unbelieving we cast a wistful glance over our shoulders".
Frederick Buechner, "A Room Called Remember"
***********************************************************---
Gordon McFarlane e-mail: MCFARLANE@upanet.uleth.ca
919 11th Street South
Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada
T1J 2P7
403-327-2987
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 03:39:32 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Natural Law: What it is not and is . . . Part I
Since in many respects this issue is at the heart of so many postings here
on the list I felt we might go ahead and drag it out for everyone to take a
look at and discourse on.
I too, as Juan, desperately wish to see our community mature beyond its
current narrow mindset. But I disagree strongly with the approaches offered
here by a few folks. I believe many of the *reforms* we hope to see will come
with a "regeneration of the inward life" of our community as the Guardian
called for.
And we need to have a clear understanding of those philosophical currents
which the Faith is most closely allied to in outlook and temperment.
The concept of natural law has a long and wonderful history. It is at the
core of every Prophet's message. It is what Socrates and Plato as well as
Plotinus championed. It was at the heart of the early Christian teachers and
helped the message of Christ find an ever increasing following. It shaped the
finest minds of Islam almost as much as the Qur'an. It became the bedrock of
Western law.
And it was essentially crippled before Martin Luther was born.
That history is another story. Let's first see what natural law is _not_.
It is not some mystical notion of a transendent reality that we as humans
are perhps vaguely aware of.
It is not divine law. It is not a license for Absolutism. It is not an
archaic expression of ways of nature in the physical world.
It is the Source from which natural rights - human rights flow. But it is
not a unidirectional current. More on this later.
If we start from the best and most recognized source, Plato we can define
what natural law is.
What does Plato mean when he uses the term nature? This term, unlike the more
narrowly defined "natural law" or "law of nature", is used extensively by
Plato. For Plato nature refers to the entire world order of mutually
supporting forces and tendencies. Here nature does not mean what it has come
to mean in especially the past century and a half, i.e., a mechanism devoid
of purpose or meaning. Plato's definition of nature is multiple. For Plato
the changing entities of this world have structure and often Plato uses the
term "nature" to refer to this aspect of an entity. He is specifically making
reference to Form or eidos (idea). of this individual thing. Nature, in this
sense, is imperfect and incomplete. But this does not imply that it is
static. These incomplete
Forms tend toward the completion of themselves. They are, in other words,
tendential.
This concept of tendency is for Plato and Socrates one of the central proofs
of a rational
universe. It is important to understand their definition of the term rational
universe. While it was clearly recognized that much of the world was
non-rational, i.e. there was no active, participating rational intelligence
in animals and plants, Man was looked upon as something apart from this
non-rational world by the existence of his mind. Yet all life has a nature
to fulfill. Such fulfillment, according to Plato is good. To be thwarted in
the attempt to complete this nature is evil.
There are five definitions of the term nature in Plato's dialogues. These
five are as follows: 1) the normative order of the world as a whole, 2) the
determinate structure of a finite entity, 3) the dynamic tendency of such an
existent entity, 4) the ordered process by which it attains some degree of
fulfillment, and 5) the valuable or authentic conditions of such fulfillment.
A. Nature as a normative world order. The term nature is used throughout the
dialogues to refer to the changing events of the world of nature. In the
Protagoras 315c52 there is a discussion of astronomy as a "natural science."
In the Phaedo 103b3 we are told that even though the world is in flux, it is
not without structure or form. Here Plato is referring to two Forms, e.g.,
Socrates is tall in comparison to X but short in comparison to Y. The
conclusion here without going into the whole argument is that something
doesn't share two opposing Forms simultaneously but rather as one "retreats"
the other "gains." In other words something isn't both ugly and beautiful at
the same moment; rather, the object is becoming more beautiful or is becoming
less beautiful in relationship to the Form Beauty, as determined by the
nature of this object. This last point we will
examine further. First, let us return to Plato's use of nature in reference
to a normative world order.
In Book X of the Laws Plato gives us his most explicit statement of [his]
theory of natural law. It contains a complex argument for the priority of
rational life over lifeless matter as the first moving principle or nature of
the cosmos. We are told that the materialists wish to identify this principle
with earth, or air, or fire. But they do not use the term rightly since as a
matter of fact soul or life is the first moving principle, and therefore "in
a special sense exists by nature." [Laws 892b-c]. This rational living
principle of natural order is God. Moved by the materialistic doctrine of
might makes right, men commonly say that law should have no regard for
virtue, but only for power and preservation. This is held to be the
definition of justice which is really
founded on nature. [Laws 714c3-715a]
Indeed, Plato and Socrates' main concern was to counter the philosophy of the
materialist, which they saw as destructive to human life. In Book IV of the
Laws Plato again argues against the materialists who contend, to varying
degrees, that might makes right. Plato refers to nature as being directed by
God, and that justice attends Him. But then, in conscious opposition to this
physicalist conception of nature, Plato gives his own answer. "God, as the
ancient saying has it, holding the beginning, the middle, and the end of all
beings, moves in a straight path according to nature and justice always
attends Him."(Laws.) This cosmic order of nature carries its own norms within
it. That which follows these norms achieves some degree of fulfillment. That
which deviates is eliminated. In the case of men who are capable of
exercising choice in the matter, those who would be happy must order their
lives in accordance with natural law: those who seek power in the madness of
the hubris are justly punished by frustration and destruction.[Laws 716].
Here is a clear expression of Plato's conception of a moral law founded on
the very nature of things and thus enforced by natural sanctions. Nature
determines what modes of being are good for a thing, whatever it may be, and
also their order of greater or lesser importance. Thus, wealth is to be
sought "only for the
sake of the body, and the welfare of the body for the sake of the soul; and
this order of
subordination exists by nature,"[Laws 870b4-5]
In Book X of the Laws Plato gives us his most explicit statement of [his]
theory of natural law. It contains a complex argument for the priority of
rational life over lifeless matter as the first moving principle or nature of
the cosmos. We are told that the materialists wish to identify this principle
with earth, or air, or fire. But they do not use the term rightly since as a
matter of fact soul or life is the first moving principle, and therefore in a
special sense exists by nature. [Laws 892b-c]. This rational living principle
of natural order is God. Moved by the materialistic doctrine of might makes
right, men commonly say that law should have no regard for virtue, but only
for power and preservation. This is held to be the definition of justice
which is really founded on nature [Laws 714c3-715a].
This is a good start, and certainly enough writing for me tonight. The
main point I wish to make here and in the following posts is that Plato's
concept of natural law is virtually identical to the spiritual reality
Baha'ullah has delivered to us. The concept of nature as tendential -
limitless perfections; the idea of being able to manifest to greater and
greater degrees the attributes of God (Plato's Forms) etc.etc.
This is a far cry from the vague definitions given by those Enlightment
writers who so inspired our Founding Fathers.
Two good books to read in this vain are: NOVUS ORDO SECLORUM: the
Intellectual Origins of the Constitution, by Forrest McDonald. Also a
classic, THE IDEOLOGICAL ORIGINS OF THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION, by Bernard
Bailyn. I would be more than happy to supply a larger list if anyone cares to
request it.
Also along a slighty different line: PHILOSOPHY, THE FEDERALIST AND THE
CONSTITUTION, by Morton White and also THE AMERICAN INDIAN IN WESTERN LEGAL
THOUGHT: The Discourses of Conquest, by Robert A Williams jr. This last one
is very good in looking at the axiological developments in Western
philosophical thought and how it shaped our definition of natural rights and
Native populations. These last two are also both published by Oxford Press.
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
From: Geocitizen@aol.com
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 05:14:37 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: ... toward freedom from false dichotomies
In my last post I referred to our shackling tendency to view the world in
stark tones of black and white, in which every opinion is either on the side
of Good and Right (which we have taken as largely synonymous with liberal
democracy) or it is not, in which case it must be in support of Evil
(fascism/authoritarianism/communism/absolutism).
Thus, whenever someone here fails to genuflect properly before the image of
liberal democracy, suggesting that perhaps the Baha'i ideal for organizing
community life is not 100% realized in the ideals of liberal democracy, a cry
is raised from several quarters denouncing that view as headed down the road
toward fascism, absolutism, fundamentalism, etc.
This seems to spring, at least partly, from a deeply oversimplified view of
the concept 'freedom' as expressed in political systems. That view sees all
political systems as existing on one monochromatic dimension, extending from
those that are "more free" to those that are "less free" or "not free." Thus
we get opinions like that expressed by Tony not long ago, that the Baha'i
system may end up "somewhere in between" democracy and fascism.
But political theorists have long known that 'freedom' is not a simple
concept. For example, the modern realization goes back at least to John
Stuart Mill that democracy does not necessarily maximize individual freedom,
for when practiced as the rule of the majority, democracy is a government ".
. . not of each by himself, but of each by all the others." And in
pre-modern terms, Plato knew this all too well.
There are still other aspects to the complexity of freedom, but a lengthy
exposition of them is not what I am presently driving toward.
If we Baha'is are serious about revolutionizing society and bringing hope to
the masses of humanity, we are going to have to recognize, grapple with, and
incorporate the inherent complexity of concepts like 'freedom' into the new
models of community life we are striving to build. Only then will these
models be truly *new* and more importantly, truly have the potential to
overcome the flaws that have bogged down existing models.
The disillusioned masses of humankind are unlikely to respond to a system
tepidly described as "somewhere in between" existing -- and unsuccessful --
systems.
More on this when I have more time.
Regards,
Kevin Haines
=END=
From: MBamford@aol.com
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 05:29:38 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: More info
Hello -
I am a new Baha'i and was talking just the other day (yes, I admit, in
person, not on-line) to David Langness, one of your subscribers, and he told
me a little about what you are doing. Please tell me more. It's probably
easiest to reach me at my home account :
mbamford@aol.com
Yours in the Faith,
Mark Bamford
Los Angeles, CA
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 00:26:36 +1300 (NZDT)
To: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: farmers and intellectuals?
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Burl wrote:
>
>Rural Burl
Obviously a farmer and an intellectual.
R
=END=
From: Geocitizen@aol.com
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 06:29:02 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: away from avoiding the issues ...
The obstacles we face will remain insurmountable and the goals we seek will
remain unattainable unless we can overcome the programming that has taught us
to see the world in polarized black-and-white terms. We will not progress in
doing this until we face the issues involved and stop our tendency to counter
the issues with ad hominen arguments against those raising them.
This problem's severity has come out most recently in several of the
responses to the posts in which Jim Harrison attempted to challenge the
hegemonic position of liberal democratic ideology in the minds of modern
Baha'is.
For example, Jim suggested that the Universal House of Justice is
qualitatively different from the U.S. Supreme Court, and that discussion of
various issues (such as homosexuality) on Talisman is unlikely to affect
future UHJ decisions in quite the same way as the articles in academic law
journals might affect future Supreme Court rulings, and that we might thus
find it productive to re-evaluate the usefulness of prolonged speculation on
the minute details of possible future UHJ decisions on such subjects. Juan
responded to this by indirectly accusing Jim of wishing to silence by force
any discussions not to his liking, and perhaps even wishing to ban Talisman
altogether. He referred to Jim's act of urging us to spend our time more
productively as a "sermon," and then went on to urge Jim to spend his time
more productively. :)
When Jim suggested that the most urgent need and the most effective path
before us is to treat the underlying spiritual disease, rather than attempt
to remedy each of the resulting symptoms, Philip accused him of " . . . High
Intolerance in the name of utopean beliefs . . ." and of believing that " . .
. the goals are too glorious to allow for such impediments as compassion,
critical thought, personal reservations based on misgivings."
And when Jim suggested that contemporary liberal-democratic ideology may need
certain crucial modifications to its theory and practice of how best to
uphold standards of human freedom and dignity, Linda flippantly asked him to
specify which human rights he thinks are "disposable."
It is one thing to say something like: "Your line of reasoning may be
well-intended, but seems likely to produce certain unintended and harmful
results." This is the sentiment I most often pick up from Jim, although
conveyed in a passionate style that seems to make some of us uncomfortable.
But what I am seeing in these responses is far less generous of spirit, for
they seem to accuse him of consciously eschewing such values as freedom of
intellectual inquiry, compassion, and human rights. This kind of accusation
clearly falls within Talisman's prohibition of ad hominem arguments, but even
worse than that, it obscures the issues we must overcome if we are to build
from Baha'u'llah's vast Revelation the new models of community life that can
transcend the limitations of all ideologies currently in practice.
Regards,
Kevin Haines
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 96 06:16:52 UT
From: "Hannah E. Reinstein"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: TOTD's
Sharing a few of my favorite quotes. Enjoy :-)
-------------------
"and then the day came when the risk
to remain tight in a bud was
more painful than the risk
it took to blossom."
--Anais Nin
"...no person is your friend (or kin) who demands your silence, or denies your
right to grow and be perceived as fully blossomed as you were intended. Or
who belittles in any fashion the gifts you labor so to bring into the world."
--Alice Walker
"We are victims of one common superstition - the superstition that we
understand the changes that are daily taking place in the world because we
read about them and know what they are." -- Mark Twain -- from "About All
Kinds of Ships" 1892
"Sometimes I feel the surest sign that intelligent lifeforms exist elsewhere
in the Universe is that none of them has contacted us." - Calvin (Calvin &
Hobbes)
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has." Margaret Mead
"The quest for certainty blocks the search for meaning. Uncertainty is the
very condition to impel man to unfold his powers." -Erich Fromm
"I'd like to take this time to push my personal political agenda."
"Unfortunately, I don't have one." Tim Allen (at the 1995 Oscar
ceremony)
One of our local political cartoonists did a brilliant cartoon a couple of
months ago when the awards were first announced. Picture a tombstone on a
hill, with the following engraved on it: "My leaders got the Nobel Peace Prize
and all I got was this lousy tombstone."
I still believe in all my dreams
And all that I can be
I'll learn from mistakes, do all that it takes
To make it eventually
'Cause I still believe in me.
- from the TV show "Fame"
"Try as much as possible to be wholly alive, with all your might, and
when you laugh, laugh like hell and when you get angry, get good and
angry. Try to be alive. You will be dead soon enough." -- William Saroyan
Warmest,
Hannah
=======================================
"'Where do you get your ideas?' has always been the question I'm most
confronted with . . . I'm afraid the answer is much more mundane: I don't know
where my ideas come from. I will admit, however, that one key ingredient is
caffeine." -- Gary Larson (FarSide)
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 96 21:48:40 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg"
To: Jonah Winters
Cc: talisman
Subject: Re: Habermas on Homosexuality
Dear Jonah:
You wrote:
> I am taking a class on the communication theories of Jurgen
> Habermas and his discourse ethics. Today in class the discussion turned
> towards the issue-that-never-dies-on-Talisman. I post here an excerpt
> transcribed from my recorded class notes. No comment, other than that I
> found it relevant. Oh, the prof is Marsha Hewitt, from the University of
> Toronto.
I've become a big fan of Habermas. His theories of communicative
discourse seem to me to be an excellent theoretic description of how
discourse should proceed when important issues need to be addressed.
And, as one of the best of the modern defenders of the European
enlightenment, he provides, in my opinion, a welcome response to
those who denigrate it.
About norms, you characterize his position as:
> The only way to come to the truth of that norm is to debate it,
> which means that all points of view have to be included, it means that
> everyone who's affected by the acceptance of that norm is required to
> give reasons for why they think what they think. Why? So that we can be
> in a position to act in ways that are then in accordance with our coming
> to a mutual decision on the truth of a norm."
I don't think that he necessarily claims that the result of a debate
will be the *truth*. Rather, I understand him as saying that in
formulating workable laws or procedures where a number of different
groups with different interests are involved, there should be such
a debate, and the results are much more likely to be acceptable to
all and to serve in a positive way.
At the same time, he says that rational truths of the type that
Kant defends are those that "theoretically" can be derived in
such a debate. The "theoretically" part seems to mean that if
all the views are represented by equally capable debaters, and
there is no coercion or force in the debate, then such a rational
result should obtain.
Let us know more about what you learn!
Stephen F.
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 96 05:44:13 0000
From: ROBERT VALVERDE
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: "Exile in Paradise" Pt 2
Continuing to recieve this document every 2 to 3 minutes recurring. Is this a
situation on your end, mine or somewhere in between?
Thanks,
R.V.
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Homosexuality/Conscience
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 07:46:21 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dave Taylor wrote to talisman@indiana.edu:
D >Sorry, Mark, but this is too much jargon for me! I think I agree with you,
D >except that God only knows what is right and wrong, the institutions only
D >know the rules they have to apply.
Dave,
Obviously, I agree with you that national and local assemblies do
not necessarily know what is right and wrong. What I was saying is that
only the institutions have the right to determine, through application
of Baha'i principles and ordinances, whether someone should be regarded
as having committed a wrong and what, if any, penalties should be
attached. As individuals, we have the duty to be free of judgmentalism
(while, at the same time, being discerning in our associations with
others). As we know, the Guardian was always cautioning the believers
not to go around playing assembly to one another.
The second part of the message was *intentionally* mysterious. I
have some suspicions about the subject, but they are as yet unformed, so
I preferred to just say it as I did.
Warm greetings to you,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion College Faculty *
*1995 President, Kansas Sociological Society Owner, Baha'i Studies List *
*Director, Institute for Reality Science [sm] Co-Moderator, Baha'i List *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Staff, 3 CompuServe Religion Fora, incl. Baha'i Section Leader (72642,3105) *
*Chief Baha'i Chat Host, America Online Ethics & Religion Forum (TFPMark) *
*Sysop, Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1) mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The Prophets of God have been the Servants of Reality; Their
Teachings constitute the science of reality." - `Abdu'l-Baha
"The sciences of today are bridges to reality; if then they lead not
to reality, naught remains but fruitless illusion." - `Abdu'l-Baha
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 96 07:47:31 PST
Subject: RE: Fwd: Dialogue Decalogue
To: Talisman@indiana.edu, Member1700@aol.com, 748-9178@mcimail.com
On Tue, 23 Jan 1996 12:05:23 -0500 Member1700@aol.com wrote:
. How can we as
>Baha'is faithfully present our understanding of progressive
revelation
>without offering our understanding of the placement of other
religions
>within the history of divine revelation?
snip....
>>This leads to my third point: what the Baha'i faith does is to
"appropriate"
>>all world religions and read them with the lens of its own
understanding.
>
Dear Tony, dear Talismanfolk,
Tony, I think you are close to the answer. Let me add my two cents.
I think there is a profound difference between knowing something
through reading Scriptures and knowing something because you can see
it for yourself. It is the difference between knowing about something
and knowing something.
But in many religious dialogues this particular distinction is
blurred.
As Jew, I've experienced this in many conversations with well-meaning
(and some not so well-meaning) Christians.
Also, I think that what I am about to say may be contradicted by the
writings but I'm going to say it anyway because it is my best
understanding.
I think there are Jews (fill in any religion here you want) who have
a great spiritual capacity and for whom Judaism has served them well.
There are also callow young Christians who have the great temerity to
think they have something to teach these older, more mature, wiser
folks.
These mature Jews (to continue my example), when confronted with the
Realities of Judaism or Islam, would say, that's wonderful for you,
I'm very happy for you. But I'm also content with the challenges and
comforts of being a Jew. I think there are many Jews who will grant
Christ his claims and also Mohammed and still remain Jewish.
Maybe it's like old cars and new cars. The new ones may have certain
features, but the old ones still work perfectly well and get you
where you want to go.
And I believe they may have absorbed much more of the Ocean of
Knowledge than those who would attempt to convert them.
All the manifestations, when they open the door, are letting in the
same light. The issue here is the variations in the ability of the
humans to see in that light. And someone who knows About Baha'ullah,
or knows That Baha'ullah is the latest manifestion may still know
very little about life, spirituality and what the manifestations call
us to do.
I think that immature people then to use the spiritual path they are
on to agrandize themselves. It is as if they say,see me not as I am,
but rather as I wish to be. They don't understand yet that they will
be seen both ways.
And because such behavior is both common and also rude, and also
stupifying, these lovely rules have been developed.
So I suppose the Bahai person who wishes to comment on other
religions would have to do so making the clear qualifier that he/she
were speaking for him/herself and not as a manifestation.
> Back to Len's commandment. Now, I wouldn't dream of trying
to tell
>someone of another Faith what it means to be a member of that Faith,
but if
>the history of religion or the progressive nature of divine
revelation
>entered the discussion, I would feel compelled to share my
understanding of
>the Baha'i writings.
How do I express this notion to someone whose
>perception of the theology of their own religion is incomplete or
misguided
>or antiquated or literal or all of the above from my perspective as
a
>Baha'i? This isn't a judgment, but rather an interpretation based
on my
>knowledge of what I believe is the most complete way of looking at
religion
>from the one and only divine source.
Here in this sentence you've made the qualifier I would argue for...
"from my perspective as a Baha'i"....and... "What I believe..."
I'm sure no one would argue with that. It is your belief. The
problem, if there is any is in the phrase " the most complete..."
This is a claim from a revelation? Or is it an arrived at
perspective. If it is a claim from a revelation, then, as a Christian
I might say that the claim of my Savior is that His own revelation
was complete already. As a Muslim, that my Prophet said that He was
the Seal of the Prophets.
In an inter-religious dialogue, I don't believe I am compelled to
accept the claims of your Revelation as Revelation. I think I am
allowed to arrive at them, in my own way, if I am so called.
Philip
BTW
I am intrigued by the parellel existence of these lists. We should
have a one day open-house and get to know the others. Invite them in
for Pistacio Hallavah and Persian Coffee.
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/24/96
Time: 07:47:31
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 09:31:31 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: jejeune farmers and intellectuals
Burl:
Juan used to use "majoritarian" and "irenic" at least once in each paper
he wrote, but I broke him of it.
john
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Dialogue Decalogue
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 09:38:27 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Philip Belove wrote to talisman@indiana.edu:
B >These mature Jews (to continue my example), when confronted with the
B >Realities of Judaism or Islam, would say, that's wonderful for you,
B >I'm very happy for you. But I'm also content with the challenges and
B >comforts of being a Jew. I think there are many Jews who will grant
B >Christ his claims and also Mohammed and still remain Jewish.
Philip -
If I may add something, What you are referring to is approached by
Reb Zalman Schachter-Shalomi, the founder of ALEPH (the major Jewish
renewal organization). Since being a practicing Jew (or a Jew in any
sense), or a member of a Jewish temple or synagogue, is not required for
membership, I joined it.
ALEPH's approach is highly universal. Reb Zalman, though educated
and ordained as a Lubavicher rebbi, has since broken with that branch of
Chasidim and now speaks of himself as a neo-Chasid. In his book,
_Paradigm Shift_, he wrote that he will attend all sorts of spiritual
and religious meetings (Christian, Jewish, Vedantic, Sufi, etc.) - as a
Jew. However, his approach to Judaism is one which recognizes the
universal spark of truth in all spiritual expressions.
I am now reading Ralph Waldo Trine's book, _Two_, and it has
reminded me of Reb Zalman.
To the Light,
Mark (Foster)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion Full-Time College Faculty *
*Past (1995) Pres., Kansas Sociological Society Owner, Baha'i Studies List *
*Director, Institute for Reality Science [sm] Co-Moderator, a Baha'i List *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Staff, 3 CompuServe Religion Fora, incl. Baha'i Section Leader (72642,3105) *
*Chief Baha'i Chat Host, America Online (TFPMark) mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us *
*Sysop, Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1) mfoster@tyrell.net *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The Prophets of God have been the Servants of Reality; Their
Teachings constitute the science of reality." - `Abdu'l-Baha
"The sciences of today are bridges to reality; if then they lead not
to reality, naught remains but fruitless illusion." - `Abdu'l-Baha
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 11:30:16 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: Alex Tavangar
Subject: Re: FW: Re: Homosexuality
Dear Philip,
You asked the following intriguing question in response to my post. It
sounds clever, but I wish I could decipher it! Would you lend me a hand
please? (I admit that I am not as well-read as others on this list)
>Does God, whose eye is on the sparrow, Triage?
Thanks
Alex B. Tavangar
=END=
Sub: ... no subject ...
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 16:24:19 +0000 (GMT)
From: Robert Parry
To: talisman@indiana.edu
would cheshmak farhoumand send me his e mail address as i`ve wiped out his
and others.
robert
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 96 19:28:35+030
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: economics of disarmament
Dear Derek:
Thank you for your suggestions about ways of effecting disarmament. It will
take some studying! Being one who can get all my entries in my ledger
columns correct and still come up with wrong addition, it will take a long
time!
Love,
Bev.
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 96 11:26:44 EST
From: theo
Subject: for Nima
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Nima....the address at UNM for you doesn't seem to work, so i will see it i can
get a response this way.
I know that patience is a virtue, but responding to requests
are also, and i have requested some feedback on the piece i wrote to you about
neoplatonism....yet none has been forthcoming. This is why i am no longer on
Talisman...i got frustrated putting ideas out, hoping in vain for comments, in
the hopes of honing and dialoging....it never (well, almost never!!) happened.
I am asking for some feedback from you, please.
theo
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 12:41:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Richard Vernon Hollinger
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Qasim Ghani
I am trying to determine the Baha'i status (or lack thereof) of Qasim
Ghani (1898/99-?), a resident of Mashad. Ghani studied at the American
University of Beirut, and is included in a list of Baha'i alumni in a
1929 article by Bayard Dodge, president of AUB. Ghani's memoirs do not
mention any affiliation with the Baha'i Faith (although such references
might have been deliberately omitted for obvious reasons), and, as he
held a number of political positions in Iran, he may have either
disassociated himself from the Baha'i community or been expelled from it.
Any information would be appreciated.
Thanks.
Richard Hollinger
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 96 10:18 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: jejeune farmers and intellectuals
John Walbridge says:
Juan used to use "majoritarian" and "irenic" at least once in each paper he
wrote, but I broke him of it.
Burl replies:
When Juan was going to UCLA, he dated a majorette named Irene and he never
got over her, despite his best efforts. (she was a most resistant lass of
moral rectitude).
Burl
(I believe it was Shiela Banani who told me that Juan still has Irene's
pom-poms stashed away in a closet as a meaningful Irenic majoretorian momento)
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
Unlimited!
********************************************************
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 09:44:36 PST8PDT
Subject: Road to Shiraz - repost / was RE: "Exile in Paradise" Pt 1
Hi,
I haven't looked for the "Dawnbreakers and Myth" piece, let me
know if anyone is interested in a repost of it too.
EP
> From: belove@sover.net
> Date sent: Tue, 23 Jan 96 18:59:21 PST
> Subject: RE: "Exile in Paradise" Pt 1
> To: talisman@indiana.edu, TLCULHANE@aol.com
> Hi again,
> Please send me copies of your Road to Shiraz stuff. I wasn't on
> Talisman then.
>
> Philip
****************************************************************
X-cs:
From: Self
To: xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxx.xxx,TLCULHANE@aol.com
Subject: "The Road to Shiraz" - from Sen's archives
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 03:07:54
...
EP
------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
Date sent: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 01:54:58 -0800
To: "Eric D. Pierce"
Subject: "The Road to Shiraz"
Dear Eric,
I'm trying to get ahold of a piece written by Terry Culhane: "The Road to
Shiraz". I asked him for it but he is unable to find it. He recommended
that I ask you since you keep an archive of Talisman. It would have been
around the Declaration of the Bab in May.
Thank you for any assistance.
xxxxxxxxxx
*****************************************************************
>From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
>Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 20:36:43 -0500
>To: xxxxxxxx@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
>Subject: Re: metaphors & dangerous ins...
>
> xxxxx: I seem to be having some trouble finding this piece . It dates
>back to May around the Declaration of the Bab. I will keep looking. i recall
>it needs some editing work and typo fix up . You may want to check with Eric
>Piece , he has ben archiving Talisman and he may find it as quickly for you
>. I will keep rumaging through my files though.
>
> warm regards ,
> terry
******************************************************************
* original post follows:
******************************************************************
Dear Friends,
As many of you recall, a few weeks ago I posted my thought on
Dawnbreakers and myth on Talisman. Since our creation story,
origin mythos celebration is only a few days away and since I
promised Tony, Ahang, Bijan and Linda further comments on
Dawnbeakers and myth, herein are the further comments I presented
to the youth class at the Omaha Baha'i Academy.
There is no attempt here to reconstruct a scientific history of
this event rather this is an attempt to reflect on the hierohistory
of the soul which I find embedded in this story. As hierohistory,
I believe it parallels the history of time. What I find so
fascinating about early Baha'i spiritual motifs is their resonance
with these same themes in the mythic, not scientific histories of
people throughout the planet. I find remarkable, this conjunction
of historical time, ideas, events and people with hierohistory.
Perhaps this is one meaning of the Day of God, the changeless
(ancient) Faith of God.
First allow me to clarify my use of the concept myth. By this I do
not mean something which is false or untrue. I use myth in the
sense of Robert Bellah that which seeks to "transfigure reality so
that it provides moral and spiritual meaning to individuals and
societies". I consider my thought an attempt to join rational
mythic and trans-rational modes of thought. I especially look
forward to the day when the various peoples of the planet make
their contributions to the unfolding meaning of lived history,
mythic history and the hierohistory of the soul as it is recovered
re-constructed and celebrated in the sacred event we know as the
Declaration of the Bab. That would a party worth attending! :)
All human groups have creation or origin stories. These origin
stories provide human beings with an integrated relationship
between their individual and social selves and the cosmos in which
we find ourselves. These stories or myths help create a sense that
"we" are a "people".
As Baha'i's we also have our origin stories which serve to create
an over-arching pattern of meaning, a sacred canopy, which links
our lives to those who have gone before and creates a dialogue
between the dead, the living and the unborn. It is in this sense
that I suggest we can understand Nabil's magnificent account in the
Dawnbreakers. While faithful to an historic record I wish to
liberate the Dawnbreakers from their literalness as history and
perceive their meaning creating nature as origin story and the
creation of a people.
In the beginning then was a theology student named - Mulla Husayn.
This student was in search of and discovered a merchant, a
businessman named Siyyad Ali Muhammad, known to us as the Bab. It
is in the recording of this discovery, this encounter of Mulla
Husayn and Ali Muhammad that we have our origins. It is an origin,
I would suggest, that has its reference in the world of time,
history as well as in the world of eternity, hierohistory of the
soul. It is a story that links us to our forbearers through and
across time and provides a context in which each person begins that
same search and discovery process both within the soul and within
the world. We begin our story, "Once upon a time" on the evening
of May 22, 1844, and in the beginning, Mulla Husayn receives the
revelation of the Bab. This is the moment in historical time and
eternity where Mulla Husayn finds his Bodhi "Tree" beyond which
there is no passing and sets in motion the process whereby the East
and the West of the physical earth and the "earth" of human hearts
will be transformed and united.
We may begin with a few questions.
1) Who is/was Mulla Husayn?
2) What was he doing on that dusty road to Shiraz?
3) What does Mulla Husayn represent?
We know he was a student, a follower of Shaykh Ahmad. So far we
know what he was but who was Mulla Husayn?
I wish to suggest that, we are all Mulla Husayn.! Mulla Husayn is
every soul in search of its beloved. Mulla Husayn is the universal
seeker. This is one of the primary things he represents. It is
when we recognize this "fact" that we can begin to own our personal
search and understand our connectedness to those early believers or
heros. While the story is set in mid 19th century Persia in the
world of history; it is set in the Covenant of Alast in the
hierohistory of every soul.
This raises further questions:
1) Where is Shiraz?
2) How can I find the road to that city?
3) Through which gate do I enter that city?
4) What city is that?
Where do you think Shiraz is? It is in your heart. Read
Baha'u'llah's Seven Valleys and you will find the road (path) and
the gate to Shiraz. This city of Shiraz is the city of Certitude
and it can be found we are told in the Book of He whom God shall
make manifest. We know the Book as the Kitab-i-Aqdas or the Most
Holy City. (As an aside there are two principle residences or
houses in that city; the residence or House of Worship and the
House of Justice.)
Back to our hero, Mulla Husayn. Well, I think if we ask, we will
find he is the seven valleys and we can observe those valleys and
him nestled in the rolling hills of Shiraz. Here we can find and
pursue our own vision quest.
Let us contemplate for a moment the setting Nabil has created as
the central forms of our origin story.
In our beginning, it is early evening, just prior to sundown. Mulla
Husayn, thirsty and shaking the dust from his clothes witnesses a
youth at the gate of the city of Shiraz. Oh - this story is
getting better!
Here we have Mulla Husayn, the universal seeker standing before the
city of Shiraz - met by the Bab - whose title is the Gate
(Threshold). Imagine the rich symbolism for a moment of Husayn,
the gate of the Gate, standing at the gate of the city being met by
the Gate.
Notice of course that this takes place before sundown - the end of
the day in the Islamic calendar and in our Baha'i calendar. The
new day and Day (ye are the bearers of the name of God in this Day)
begin at sundown and it is shortly after sundown that this new Day
commences at the home of the Bab. (But I am ahead of our story.)
First Mulla Husayn is invited by the Bab - the Gate, standing at
the gate of Shiraz - to do what? To leave his friends to
themselves and accompany the Bab to His home. Whew! Imagine the
Bab, a stranger, has invited Husayn to His home. Perhaps the
invitation can be read as the R.S.V.P we all receive as we are
invited "home" not by a stranger but by the "Friend".
Mulla Husayn of course protests. He can't leave his friends, he
has obligations - real attachments, unfinished business to attend
to. Any of this sound familiar? But to no avail are Mulla
Husayn's pleading and excuses. He succumbs to the charm of the
Gate at the gate and lucky for us became the gate of the Gate.
It is at this point that our origin story begins to acquire its
richness.
Upon entering the city - Mulla Husayn and the Bab, Ali Muhammad,
proceed to His house. I wonder what House that is? At the
threshold of the Bab's house they, and I would suggest we, are met
by the "faithful Ethiopian servant" Mubarek, the Blessed One!
Once inside the house of the Bab, Mulla Husayn is served tea by the
Bab himself. Then begins to unfold the question and answer session
with which we are so familiar. This encounter culminates in the
Bab revealing the Qayyum'l Asma, or perhaps we could say unveiling
Himself to the searching soul of Mulla Husayn. It is in this
moment that Mulla Husayn reaches that state wherein all souls say
"I believe". Or in more conventional Islamic terms that moment
when we are asked "Am I not your Lord?" and our only possible reply
is "Yes, I testify that Thou art". Here are the Seven Valleys
united into one moment!
Serving as the background of this origin story as drama, are two
additional souls who are present for this entire encounter.
Khadijih Bagum, the wife of the Bab, and Mubarek, the servant of
the Bab.
In ways that are probably truer than we know Khadijih, the veiled
women that we do not recognize due to the cultural restriction of
the original storyteller, is the first believer. These
restrictions need not prevent us from re-constructing her
significance in the observance of our story. Unable to sleep,
longing for the presence of her husband, her beloved, Khadijih
proceeds to the chamber of the house wherein Ali Mohammed is rapt
in ecstatic prayer.
This moment is recounted by Khadijih in the following manner:
"There I saw Him standing in that chamber. His hands raised
heavenward intoning a prayer in the most melodious voice with tears
streaming down His face.. He looked so majestic and resplendent
that fear seized me... I was on the point of screaming, when He
made a gesture with His blessed hands, telling me to go back." It
was the next day that she recounted the Bab's response to her that
"although He had not wished to be seen by me in the conditions of
the previous night, God had ordained otherwise." The Bab, Himself,
told her that "It was the Will of God, that you should have seen Me
in the way you did last night, so that no shadow of doubt should
ever cross your mind and you should come to know with absolute
certitude that I am that Manifestation of God..."
It is significant to me that Khadijih would recall that it was not
the wish of Ali Muhammad that He be seen, but that it was the will
of God. Here we have a woman in an intensely patriarchal society
who is the first recipient of the that promised Dawn. The Bab
expresses the thought that it is the will of God that He be seen
"unveiled" in the presence of a woman in a society where women were
veiled. How then could women possibly remain veiled in this world
when the will of God has unveiled the "Countenance that can never
fade" to a woman? There is much to ponder here. That women were
not seen and did not "see" or "witness" created "fear and
trembling" not only in the heart of Khadijih, but ever since in the
heart of the world. Khadijih becomes the inner symbol of "seeing
and "witnessing" the Hidden God become manifest. In this context,
Tahireh becomes the outer symbol of "being seen". The two in
combination provide a more complete paradigm that either alone. It
is perhaps no accident that this "seeing" and "being seen" process
are sublimely and boldly witnessed and testified to by woman in the
short dispensation of the Bab. This unveiling and being seen
presages the "Great Reversal" of the Siyah Chal wherein the Maiden
"unveils" Herself to the longing soul of another Husayn. Ah, but,
that is another chapter in our story.
The "other" soul present that evening has, it seems to me an
equally compelling chapter to add to our origin story.
In Mubarek, the faithful servant, I find the designation by Nabil
of faithful, the embodiment of Baha'u'llah's admonitions in the
Suriy-i-Vafa that "It behoveth them however to exert thine utmost
to attain the very essence of fidelity... And none can ever achieve
this except he who hath purged his heart from whatever is created
between heaven and earth and hath detached himself from all but
God, the Sovereign Lord..." In the English language there is a
conceptual link between fidelity and faithful.
Mubarek, as faithful servant was entrusted by the Bab with His
business affairs the last years prior to His declaration. This sam
servant is later entrusted with the care of the Bab's mother
following His martyrdom when she took up residence in Karbila.
Perhaps it is my simplicity but when I contemplate those two acts
of trust, the interweaving of the mother of the household with the
business affairs of the world I find a powerful metaphor for the
model of faithfulness and servitude to which we are al called.
Might not Mubarek be one of our first examples of the station
reserved for all those who have been enslaved by the world? A
station wherein the care of one's "mother", the household, and the
management of the public world are joined in harmony. Might not
this constitute, after all, the "very essence of fidelity"? Might
not this be the transformation, held open, the invitation,
available to all those "faithful Ethiopian servants", those
enslaved and oppressed by the world. This man/spirit becomes the
progenitor of a new humanity in this dispensation. One who can be
entrusted with the affairs of the world as well as with one's
mother.
Mubarek comes into the household of the Bab in 1842 at the age of
19. It is Mubarek who accompanies the Bab in pilgrimage to Mecca
along with Quddus. The Blessed One and the Holy One! We know of
course that pilgrimage to the "House" of the Bab in Iran is
ordained by Baha'u'llah in the Most Holy Book. I ask you to
consider who might we expect to greet us at the threshold of that
sacred house - that soul- if not Mubarek, the faithful servant.
I find it fascinating that Mubarek enters our story welcoming Mulla
Husayn at the threshold of the house of the Bab. A few years later
while serving Fatimah Khanum, the mother of the Bab, he spends his
mornings sweeping the threshold of the shrine of the Imam Husayn in
Karbila. It is here Mubarek awaits the return of his Beloved, the
Bab. It is significant I believe, that Mubarek spends twenty-one
years in the service of the Bab and His family before his passing
at the age of 40. If he came into the household of the Bab in 1842
at the age of 19 that would mean he ascends to the next world in
approximately 1863. I would ask you to consider this about the
faithful African servant. He enters our story with a Mulla Husayn
- he continues within our story at the shrine of the Imam Husayn -
he departs from the physical world of our story at the time of the
declaration of the new Husayn in 1863, the return of his beloved
Bab - Baha'u'llah - for which he had so faithfully been waiting.
So who is Mubarek? This man/spirit whose life is so interwoven with
Husayn's and Gates and shrines.
This Mubarek became the reality of the one who accompanies us on
pilgrimage, ushers us into the presence of the Gate, to the
threshold of the home of the Gate in the city of Certitude. He is
each of us looking on in the wings - the outer chamber of the House
of worship, as we are called to service at that moment of personal
revelation and as recognition descends upon the waiting soul of
Mulla Husayn that is each of us.
Khadijih and Mubarek flank us, are with(in) Mulla Husayn (the
seeker). That night the female/male presence wait in communion and
service in the chambers of the sacred House, the Gate of a new Day.
Khadijih and Mubarek, along with Mulla Husayn re-enact in
historical time and hierohistory the oneness of humankind - the
union of female and male, the transformation of oppressor and
oppressed that is the hallmark of the new Husayn, whose Advent
proclaims the spiritual and social liberation peoples; all the
faithful servants of the world.
Then there is the matter of Quddus, the Holy One. If, as Nabil
records, the Bab stated to Mulla Husayn "We have in the world of
the spirit been communing with that youth. We know him already."
May not Quddus be the first believer as well? In the last of the
Letters of the Living in this world, we find the first in the world
of the spirit - the beginning and end are one. There is no time
in that world so to be the last or end is the same as the first or
the beginning.
There appears to be an irfan issue here - the knowledge of the
heart. One origin story becomes more complex. Quddus, the last
that is first, is the holy one. To believe is to be holy. It
would also seem to be blessed, a blessed one as Mubarek. It is
also to behold the majestic presence as Khadijih. I recall here
Baha'u'llah's comment in Suriy-i-Vafa about the Kitab-i-Aqdas -
"Blessed is the one who apprehends it..." So here is the Kitab-i-
Aqdas, the city of Certitude, the entrance to which is by the Gate
- who must needs find a willing seeker to a gate - Mulla Husayn,
that he may be welcomed and blessed - Mubarek and partake of the
"Holy" Quddus, which is to witness - Khadijih, the overwhelming
majesty and beauty of the Glory of God - Baha'u'llah and His
Maiden. I have suspected that the more we learn of this spiritual
"dance", the more we understand and the better we perform it. And
oh such a dance ... Such a dance it is.
As we contemplate the richness of the Declaration of the Bab - our
creation story - I ask you to consider in your search - the
muezzins call to prayer. Consider calling your soul to prayer - we
who are the muezzin of our own souls calling the Names of God to
manifest themselves within our House of Worship, our souls. I
offer as a suggestion what we might find in this House - the
presence of Mulla Husayn asking questions longing to behold our
Lord; Khadijih - standing awestruck unveiling her name before the
majesty of our Lord; and leading the congregation of names in that
House of our soul no less than Mubarek, the blessed one "the
faithful Ethiopian servant".
So in the end we have the hope and a promise as each of us
undertakes our personal pilgrimage.....on the ROAD TO SHIRAZ.
Warm Regards,
Terry
P.S. The next chapter in our story finds Susan B. Anthony and
Fredrick Douglas joining Mulla Husayn...on the ROAD TO SHIRAZ -
through the gate of which city they pass on their way to Teheran
and the Siyah Chal wherein they meet Husayn Ali and the encounter
with BAHA'U'LLAH - in all Her Glory.
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 09:52:45 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: Books: A big Favor
Friends,
I would like to ask you a very big favor. Would it be possible for you to
post the top 10 books you have loved the most? It can be on any subject,
fiction or non-fiction, Baha'i, Baha'inot, etc.
Arsalan J. Sadighi
"Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
that is clearly none of your business!" Battista
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 96 12:38:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Qasim Ghani
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Richard,
Is this the same Qasim Ghani who authored a number of books on
Persian literature, e.g. commentary on poetry of Hafiz; mystical
thoughts of Sana'i, etc., and died about 10-15 years ago? If so,
he was an Azali through and through -- but a remarkable figure in
modern Persian literary circles.
regards, ahang.
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 10:51:13 PST8PDT
Subject: G-ETHIC ARCHIVES / was RE: Fwd: Dialogue Decalogue
Hi,
re:
> From: belove@sover.net
> Date sent: Wed, 24 Jan 96 07:47:31 PST
> Subject: RE: Fwd: Dialogue Decalogue
> To: Talisman@indiana.edu, Member1700@aol.com, 748-9178@mcimail.com
...snip
> Philip
>
> BTW
>
> I am intrigued by the parellel existence of these lists. We should
> have a one day open-house and get to know the others. Invite them in
> for Pistacio Hallavah and Persian Coffee.
>
The G-ETHIC email list is run on a mainframe "listserv" process,
and therefore the postings are available in weekly archive digests.
Let me know if anyone wants the index to the G-ETHIC archive files
and I'll download and forward them.
The extensive "Baha'i vs. Buddhist" arguments on G-ETHIC (which were
preceeded on talisman, AOL and elsewhere) have died down (by mutual
agreement) for now. I may attempt to pull all that stuff together
into yet another compilation when I get a little time.
EP
(PierceED@csus.edu)
=END=
Date: 23 Jan 96 20:13:27 EST
From: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
To:
Subject: Talisman Mysticism Conference Update
Dear Talismanians,
Just a quick update on the already-wildly-successful Talisman Mysticism
Conference:
- We are beyond capacity already! Seventy-five participants have now
registered, filling the winter cabins at Bosch. The staff there has just
decided to open the 28 beds available in the summer cabins (complete with
canvas flaps over the screened windows and free space heaters) to those
who have not yet utilized hikmat and pre-registered. Some participants
have decided to register as day students and stay at a nearby bed and
breakfast or at a hotel in Santa Cruz. In short, we are packed, so look
forward to an enthusiastic crowd at Talisman's first official event.
- Two new sessions have been added recently, both presented on Saturday
afternoon, February 24th:
- The Mystical Image -- art videos by Sonja van Kerkhoff
(featuring Sen McGlinn's poetry and music from many
Baha'i contributors)
- A Mystical Experience Using Music: A Guided Lesson
taught by Amir
- Seventeen children have registered for the event, so Bosch has decided
to offer a children's program on mysticism during the weekend. Anyone
with ideas and or comments can call Linda Bedford at Bosch.
- All attendees who fly in to San Jose's airport and who desire ground
transport to Bosch on Friday might want to pool their needs here on
Talisman (their transportation needs, that is) and save themselves a
considerable sum in the process. One van service that operates out of
San Jose charges $50 for the first passenger to Bosch, but only $5 for
each additional person, for example. Bosch staff will be happy to put
anyone in touch with the transportation companies, but just does not have
the womanpower to make all the arrangements necessary.
- I want to thank everyone who has worked hard to make this event a
success, especially the presentors. The Bosch staff has said the response
to this session has been overwhelming, so we're on to something, methinks.
Love,
David
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 11:17:45 -0800
From: derekmc@IX.NETCOM.COM (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Re: jejeune farmers and intellectuals
To: talisman@indiana.edu
---- Begin Forwarded Message
+OK
Return-Path:
Received: from roatan.ucs.indiana.edu by ix5.ix.netcom.com
(8.6.12/SMI-4.1/Netcom)
id KAA10359; Wed, 24 Jan 1996 10:28:24 -0800
Received: (from daemon@localhost) by roatan.ucs.indiana.edu
(8.7.3/8.7.3/1.10IUPO) id NAA11360 for talisman-outgoing; Wed, 24 Ja
Subject: Re: jejeune farmers and intellectuals
Sender: owner-talisman@indiana.edu
Precedence: bulk
John Walbridge says:
Juan used to use "majoritarian" and "irenic" at least once in each
paper he
wrote, but I broke him of it.
Burl replies:
When Juan was going to UCLA, he dated a majorette named Irene and he
never
got over her, despite his best efforts. (she was a most resistant lass
of
moral rectitude).
Burl
(I believe it was Shiela Banani who told me that Juan still has Irene's
pom-poms stashed away in a closet as a meaningful Irenic majoretorian
momento)
Derek replies
My dear Burl
The sorry story gets even worse, she actually was as I recall an
Economics major minoring in Pom Pom varitions on intellectual
radicalism. This is why Juan has such a bias against Economists you say
Econo and all those sad memories of unfulfilled young love returns .
You would say based on that scoundrel Haines it caused blubbering in
LA, that sounds like a film title to me. Naturally I am not as rude as
you Burl so I would not insult our good friend Juan like you would by
mentioning such things , however once Linda finds out what Juan did to
Irene heaven help the poor chap.Anyway back to Juan's young love , as
the story has been relayed to me through secret dark and forbidden
sources. The fair and chaste Irene fled to England and got her PHD in
Economics developing a formula of using POM POMs to create a chasity
belt of moral development in the field of economic studies to reduce
the emission level of graph paper production. She obtained her
doctorate at LSE and still teaches there every Friday to the delight of
all her students. The rest of her time she advises the EEC and the
Russian Federation on the economic impact of producing eggs without
their yolks. It is thought she may be granted a Nobel peace prize for
this breakthrough work. Who said Economists were boring and immoral,
Irene is an example to us of one who refused to be swayed by such
things as Arabic grammar and Plato's Slave Republic . she is just as
sweet and virginal as the day Juan first pursued her as all Economists
are , we are the misunderstood aspect of humanity. When is the baha'i
community going to start Adam Smith Day that Burl is the question of
the day nay decade.
Kindest Regards
your best friend Derek
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
Unlimited!
********************************************************
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 11:20:50 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: The Prince of Platitudes
To: talisman@indiana.edu
---- Begin Forwarded Message My dear Burl
All I can say to this post when Linda gets her hands on him. As I sent
his post to us about what he intends to do to Linda at Bosch. I am
going to sell tickets
Kindest Regards
Derek
The Prince of Platitudes says: "get on with it ye oafish Farmer and
Economist".
Signed
The Prince of Platitudes
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 96 14:34:24 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: human rights
To: talisman@indiana.edu
I have found no reference, by the way, to economists being immoral. However, I
did read somewhere that economics is the most inhuman of
sciences.
Now, regarding the issue of human rights - while democracy does not necessarily
guarantee that human rights will be protected, the evidence is there to show
that human rights will most likely be protected in a democracy. There is an
article by Juan Linz in Human Rights in Perspective that discusses human rights
under different types of political regimes. This is his conclusion. Other
things I have read have all supported this view.
Let us look at human rights in the M.E. (well, we can't really because there
aren't any), but let's look at the possibilities. We have a variety of types
of regimes there and there are horrible human rights violations in all of them.
Probably the only regime that qualifies as a democracy these days is Israel.
Human rights abuses against Palestinians as individuals and as a people have
been horrible. However, because Israel is a democracy, there are Israelis -
lawyers, human rights activists, etc. - who have made trouble for the Israeli
government over these abuses. They have made public the types of torture used
in prisons, for example.
Now, if we look at the antithesis of democracy, Saddam's Iraq, we would find no
such people coming forward in public to decry the governments record of human
rights abuse. People must suffer in absolute silence. There is no discourse.
There is no free press in which to write about such things. The only Iraqis
who can complain openly about their sufferings are those who have fled Iraq.
Still, they need to be courageous even then to talk.
The key element here seems to be freedom of expression and the ability to get
out one's ideas. The press in the U.S. may or may not be biased (certainly
there are plenty of biases to go around), but even if one's viewpoint can't be
found in the NYTimes, he or she can - at the very least type up one's ideas, run
them off on a photcopier, and hand them out, mail them, or whatever. There is
no Director General of Typewriters one has to deal with.
Perhaps I am very touchy about the issue of human rights because I am always
looking at conditions in the M.E. I am eager to preserve the freedoms that we
do have. I am very nervous about relinquishing any of them because I see what
kind of path this can lead to. Linda
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 14:18:38 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Richard Vernon Hollinger
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Qasim Ghani
Richard--
I believe Ghani disassociated himself from the Faith due his
political activities. Some say he was also estranged somewhat. But, yes, I
believe he was Baha'izAde -- or so I've heard. (EI hasn't gotten far
enough yet to have an article on this guy; maybe you should ask someone over
there at Columbia).
Wasn't Mohammad-Ali Furughi also of a Baha'i family?
Nima
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 14:43:32 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: theo
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: for Nima
Dear Theo--
Sorry I haven't responded. I have intended to respond because I saved
your post on a disk but somehow misplaced the disk somewhere (this house
is a complete mess right now since I'm moving out pretty soon). Do you mind
resending?
Yours,
Nima
p.s. I'm no longer at the unm address.
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 10:36:06 +1300 (NZDT)
To: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT ), talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: re: jejeune farmers and intellectuals
Derek wrote,
When is the baha'i
>community going to start Adam Smith Day
If we did it could lead to all sorts of unforseen difficulties,
particularly in relation to our intellectual life. You see, August Comte
wanted to name a month after Adam Smith, and to fulfill his dream (albeit
partially) would be to reinforce some of the worst aspects of modern
scholarly thought -- aspects from from even Talisman is not immune.
Just a thought.
R
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 16:25:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Richard Vernon Hollinger
To: Ahang Rabbani
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Qasim Ghani
> Is this the same Qasim Ghani who authored a number of books on
> Persian literature, e.g. commentary on poetry of Hafiz; mystical
> thoughts of Sana'i, etc., and died about 10-15 years ago? If so,
> he was an Azali through and through -- but a remarkable figure in
> modern Persian literary circles.
I believe this is the same person. In addition to his publications, he
also developed a very interesting collecting of nineteenth century
Iranian diplomatic correspondence, which has been deposited at Yale
University. The correspondence documents, among other things,
Baha'u'llah's exiles and other events in the history of the Baha'i Faith
in the Near East.
Richard
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 15:58:26 -0600
To: "Eric D. Pierce"
From: Bruce Burrill
Subject: Re: G-ETHIC ARCHIVES / was RE: Fwd: Dialogue Decalogue
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Eric D. Pierce,
> 'The extensive "Baha'i vs. Buddhist" arguments on G-ETHIC' <
There was no Baha'i vs. Buddhism argument on G-ETHIC. There was,
however, a response to this statement:
> 'Eloquent as always, however, I think the Baha'i represent a different
perspective than most ecumenical religious approaches to human
societies integration of evolving ethics. I agree that everyone has a right
to their version of the truth, but if that perspective prevails, what are the
social implications. ... While I am not a Baha'i, or for that matter bound
to any organized religion, it seems to me that the principles they include
in there doctrine, reflect a framework for the unification of the "tribes
of man".' <
The response was that the Baha'i framework is not a useful meta-
perspective to this end. While Baha'i may speak to those who have
bought into the Baha'i framework, it does not work for those who
haven't, and the problematics of using the Baha'i perspective, as it is
found in middle of the road, mainstream writers such as Moojan
Momen, were illustrated by using Buddhism. There was no "versus" in
the discussion.
Bruce
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 11:44:41 +1300 (NZDT)
To: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi), talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Books: A big Favor
At 9:52 24/1/96, Arsalan J. Sadighi wrote:
>Friends,
>
>I would like to ask you a very big favor. Would it be possible for you to
>post the top 10 books you have loved the most? It can be on any subject,
>fiction or non-fiction, Baha'i, Baha'inot, etc.
>
Anne of Green Gables
Cherokee Trail
As I Lay Dying
Vanity Fair
Catcher in the Rye
The Baha'i Book
The Book of God's other religions
For Whom the Bell Tolls
Meet My Maker The Mad Molecule
Dylan Thomas' short stories
Robert.
=END=
Sub: ... no subject ...
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 17:48:54 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: lua@sover.net (LuAnne Hightower)
On Jan. 23, 1996 Linda wrote:
>One more quick item - I must temper my comments about the goodness of
>Talisman. It seems that it has induced Luanne to make puns. I hope it does
>not induce premature labor.
Estaghfiru'llah. Yes, I do seem to be rather impressionable in my current
state. I would have attributed the unfortunate incident to hormones (I am
not above invoking biochemical phenomena as a scapegoat for my behavior when
in a pinch), but if you wish to claim responsibility for my unseemly acts,
then so be it.
Kind Regards,
LuAnne
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 14:31:12 PST8PDT
Subject: Dali Lama's prostrations/ Re: G-ETHIC ARCHIVES ...
Hi Bruce/Talismanians,
I'll defer to your opinion with the exception that it seemed
that some of the Baha'i folk responding to you seemed to be
initially hostile to your viewpoint (too bad).
I tried to post a message on G-ETHIC asking about the incident
that has been reported where the Dali Lama prostrated himself
at the Shrines at the Baha'i World Center, but apparently it
never got through to G-ETHIC. What was your take on the report?
Thanks,
EP
> Date sent: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 15:58:26 -0600
> To: "Eric D. Pierce"
> From: Bruce Burrill
> Subject: Re: G-ETHIC ARCHIVES / was RE: Fwd: Dialogue Decalogue
> Copies to: Talisman@indiana.edu
> Eric D. Pierce,
>
> > 'The extensive "Baha'i vs. Buddhist" arguments on G-ETHIC' <
>
> There was no Baha'i vs. Buddhism argument on G-ETHIC. There was,
> however, a response to this statement:
>
...snip
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 16:13:25 -0600
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: Bruce Burrill
Subject: Re: G-ETHIC ARCHIVES / was RE: Fwd: Dialogue Decalogue
Eric D. Pierce,
> 'The extensive "Baha'i vs. Buddhist" arguments on G-ETHIC' <
There was no Baha'i vs. Buddhism argument on G-ETHIC. There was,
however, a response to this statement:
> 'Eloquent as always, however, I think the Baha'i represent a different
perspective than most ecumenical religious approaches to human
societies integration of evolving ethics. I agree that everyone has a right
to their version of the truth, but if that perspective prevails, what are the
social implications. ... While I am not a Baha'i, or for that matter bound
to any organized religion, it seems to me that the principles they include
in there doctrine, reflect a framework for the unification of the "tribes
of man".' <
The response was that the Baha'i framework is not a useful meta-
perspective to this end. While Baha'i may speak to those who have
bought into the Baha'i framework, it does not work for those who
haven't, and the problematics of using the Baha'i perspective, as it is
found in middle of the road, mainstream writers such as Moojan
Momen, were illustrated by using Buddhism. There was no "versus" in
the discussion.
Bruce
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 11:30:28 +1300 (NZDT)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: SDC 16: "It was, furthermore, their wont to intercalate one month in
every
three-year period, to perform ablutions after intercourse, to rinse out
the mouth and snuff up water through the nostrils, to part the hair, use
the tooth-stick, pare the nails and pluck the armpits."
Talisman folks,
Today's extract contains a paradox. An unbeliever provides useful
knowledge for the Prophet, yet 'Abdu'l-Baha distances the teachings of
God's religions from apparently similar cultural trends of the times in
which they arise. On the one hand, religion is shown to be apparently in
need of help from outside, on the other, its independence is asserted.
Working this through I concluded that the paradox may be resolved with an
appreciation of the realisation that God is the All-Bestowing -- that what
is Caesar's is God's (KI)...and that while some of the cultural practices
of the day and age may be conform to the Divine Will, other's don't. In
other words: God comes first in all things, and is not called to account
for the activities of His creatures. Here, maybe, is the answer to the
long letter the other day (from someone Livingstone?) regarding different
cultural mores, relativity, homosexuality, and the Faith.
Robert.
SDC 16
Furthermore, in the Battle of the Confederates, Abu Sufyan
enlisted the aid of the Bani Kinanih, the Bani Qahtan and the Jewish
Bani Qurayzih and rose up with all the tribes of the Quraysh to put out
the Divine Light that flamed in the lamp of Yathrib (Medina). In those
days the great winds of trials and tribulations were blowing from every
direction, as it is written: "Do +P27 men think when they say `We
believe' they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?" [Qur'an 29:2.]
The believers were few and the enemy attacking in force, seeking to blot
out the new-risen Sun of Truth with the dust of oppression and tyranny.
Then Salman (the Persian) came into the presence of the Prophet--the
Dawning-Point of revelation, the Focus of the endless splendors of
grace--and he said that in Persia to protect themselves from an
encroaching host they would dig a moat or trench about their lands, and
that this had proved a highly efficient safeguard against surprise
attacks. Did that Wellspring of universal wisdom, that Mine of divine
knowledge say in reply that this was a custom current among idolatrous,
fire-worshiping Magians and could therefore hardly be adopted by
monotheists? Or did He rather immediately direct His followers to set
about digging a trench? He even, in His Own blessed person, took hold of
the tools and went to work beside them.
It is moreover a matter of record in the books of the various
Islamic schools and the writings of leading divines and historians, that
after the Light of the World had risen over Hijaz, flooding all mankind
with Its brilliance, and creating through the revelation of a new divine
Law, new principles and institutions, a fundamental change throughout the
world--holy laws were revealed which in some cases conformed to the
practices +P28 of the Days of Ignorance.[Jahiliyyih: the period of
paganism in Arabia, prior to the advent of Muhammad.] Among these,
Muhammad respected the months of religious truce,[The pagan Arabs observed
one separate and three consecutive months of truce, during which period
pilgrimages were made to Mecca, and fairs, poetry contests and similar
events took place.] retained the prohibition of swine's flesh, continued
the use of the lunar calendar and the names of the months and so on.
There is a considerable number of such laws specifically enumerated in the
texts:
"The people of the Days of Ignorance engaged in many practices
which the Law of Islam later confirmed. They would not take in marriage
both a mother and her daughter, and the most shameful of acts in their
view was to marry two sisters. They would stigmatize a man marrying the
wife of his father, derisively calling him his father's competitor. It
was their custom to go on pilgrimage to the House at Mecca, where they
would perform the ceremonies of visitation, putting on the pilgrim's
dress, practicing the circumambulation, running between the hills, pausing
at all the stopping-places, and casting the stones. It was, furthermore,
their wont to intercalate one month in every three-year period, to
perform ablutions after intercourse, to rinse out the mouth and snuff up
water through the nostrils, to part the hair, use the tooth-stick, pare
the nails and pluck the armpits. They would, likewise, cut off the right
hand of a thief."
Can one, God forbid, assume that because some of +P29 the divine
laws resemble the practices of the Days of Ignorance, the customs of a
people abhorred by all nations, it follows that there is a defect in these
laws? Or can one, God forbid, imagine that the Omnipotent Lord was moved
to comply with the opinions of the heathen? The divine wisdom takes many
forms. Would it have been impossible for Muhammad to reveal a Law which
bore no resemblance whatever to any practice current in the Days of
Ignorance? Rather, the purpose of His consummate wisdom was to free the
people from the chains of fanaticism which had bound them hand and foot,
and to forestall those very objections which today confuse the mind and
trouble the conscience of the simple and helpless.
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 17:06:32 -0600
To: "Eric D. Pierce"
From: Bruce Burrill
Subject: Re: Dali Lama's prostrations/ Re: G-ETHIC ARCHIVES ...
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
At 02:31 PM 1/24/96 PST8PDT, you wrote:
>Hi Bruce/Talismanians,
>
>I'll defer to your opinion with the exception that it seemed
>that some of the Baha'i folk responding to you seemed to be
>initially hostile to your viewpoint (too bad).
>
Eric,
I think that had to do with the fact that Baha'i got rather roughly handled
earlier by others on G-ETHIC.
>I tried to post a message on G-ETHIC asking about the incident
>that has been reported where the Dali Lama prostrated himself
>at the Shrines at the Baha'i World Center, but apparently it
>never got through to G-ETHIC. What was your take on the report?
>
Possible that happened, but damdifino if it did. It is probably not unlike
when the Pope used to get off of airplanes and kissed the runway. If you can
get an actual accounting, it would be interesting.
Bruce
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 16:15:18 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: frlw@midway.uchicago.edu, Masumian@mail.utexas.edu,
Noorbakhsh.Monzavi@hibo.no
Subject: daily telegraph (fwd)
>Electronic Telegraph Wednesday 24 January 1996 World News
>
> [World News]
>
>Call to fight Iran's Gulf 'conspiracy'
>
>By Christopher Lockwood, Diplomatic Editor
>
>A PRO-government Saudi Arabian newspaper has accused Iran of fomenting civil
>unrest in the Gulf state of Bahrain as part of a conspiracy against the
>region, and called for the menace to be confronted collectively.
>
>Al-Madina said yesterday that the Gulf nations "are still targets for those
>who started the longest wars in the Gulf area's history", a reference to
>Iran, which fought a war with Iraq from 1980 to '88.
>
>The paper said the alleged conspiracy against Bahrain "is aimed at the whole
>area and is just an introduction for a larger plan that has to be faced
>early on". Confronting the problem "becomes an Arab responsibility".
>
>The editorial follows the arrest on Monday of eight Bahrain opposition
>figures accused of leading a week of demonstrations, as well as clashes with
>police, arson attacks on schools, houses and cars, stone-throwing and gas
>cylinder explosions.
>
>Yesterday, a spokesman in Bahrain said the government had "proof, including
>documents and photographs, proving the group's involvement in the incidents,
>which will be handed to the legal authorities".
>
>At the weekend, two official Bahrain newspapers also accused Iran's Shi'ite
>Muslim regime of involvement in the disturbances, which the Bahrain
>authorities, who are Sunni Muslims, have blamed on Shi'ite religious
>leaders.
>
>Among those arrested was the main opposition leader, Abdul Ameer al-Jamri,
>who is a Shi'ite cleric. The disturbances followed the banning in December
>of gatherings at Shi'ite mosques. An earlier wave of violence last year left
>13 people dead.
>
>Iran's official media strongly denied the charges yesterday. The
>government-controlled Iran News said: "Accusing Iran of masterminding the
>disturbances in Manama or any other Persian Gulf Arab sheikhdom is an old
>ploy of US foreign policy to justify the illegal presence of American forces
>in the region".
>
>Bahrain's WWW Sites (http://www.liii.com/~hajeri/bahrain.html)
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>ET | Front | News | World | Features | Sport | City | What's new | Help | ET
> search | Gazette | Back
>----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Reply to Electronic Telegraph - et@telegraph.co.uk
>
>Electronic Telegraph is a Registered Service Mark of The Telegraph plc
>
>
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 17:56:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Jackson Armstrong-Ingram
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re sex and values
There is a distinction between a view of religion that is legalistic --
you do this and this and not that and that -- and a view of religion that
is ethical -- these are the principles you should adhere to when deciding
what to do. One tells you how to act; the other teaches you how to
choose. Islam, Christianity, and Judaism have deep rooted tendencies
toward legalism, despite their being known as 'ethical monotheisms,' and
this tendency has thus entered both middle eastern and western cultures.
'Things' are right or wrong. Morality is a matter of the objectively
observable. In many ways this is a view of religion that is concerned
largely with concepts of taboo and pollution rather than values.
The essential locus of the 'thingness' of morality for this aspect of
Semitic religion (or more accurately for many adherents of the Semitic
religions) has been sexuality. It is the red flag that sets all the
bulls charging. However, the concentrated projection of moral fitness on
the area of sexuality has often served as a screen to permit considerable
flexibility of morality in other areas of life. Sexuality has been
pressed into service as a moral synecdoche for an individual's whole life
and if one remained conforming in that area it provided a sin-covering
function for all other areas.
The corollary of this is that it is not deemed appropriate to discuss
issues of sexuality in respect of those who have already been determined
on other grounds to have led a moral life. To find a 'flaw' in their
sexual conformity would be taken to bring into question their whole life,
so their sexuality should remain unexamined just in case.
Thus, biography of early Baha'is has eschewed the issue of their
sexuality and removed it from the context in which statements about
sexuality in the writings are seen. That Baha'is had adulterous
affairs, were blissfully monogamous, had homosexual relationships, hardly
ever spoke to their spouses, used birth control, etc., is as relevant to
understanding their lives as Baha'is as anything else about them. It is
especially relevant to understanding their relationships and
correspondence with the successive Heads of the faith. Correspondence
includes the unwritten mutual knowledge that the parties have of each
other and as much of that knowledge as can be recovered must be taken
into account to understand the correspondence.
The phrase 'companionate marriage' is used in a Guardian's letter which
is often cited as if this referred to people simply living together.
Companionate marriage was a specific reform of marriage law and practice
that was proposed in the west in the 1920s. the term refers to a legal
contractual marriage that could be terminated simply by mutual consent.
It was also proposed that the contract could include an agreement not to
have children. Indeed, there could even be an agreement not to have
sex. Companionate marriage was being presented by some American Baha'is,
Lorol Schopflocher for one, as the ideal form of marriage and was being
recommended to attendees at Baha'i summer schools and other events. I
was told by one woman who attended Green Acre in her youth that
Schopflocher expounded to all the girls on how they should insist on
separate bedrooms when they got married and that she had never shared a
bedroom with her husband and never would.
A remark that it is shameful to keep a catamite presumably means first
and foremost that it is shameful to keep a catamite. But from specific
comments we may also develop generalizations. We are likely to be aided
in generalizing by an understanding of the context in which the statement
was made and received. However, apart from this there are two basic
directions in which we may take our generalizing. The statement may be
generalized to a condemnation of a broader range of homosexual acts; or
it may be generalized to a condemnation of those in a position of power
exploiting their dependents for their own ends. One type of
generalization operates on the basis of presumed analogies among specific
outward acts and the one in the statement; the other operates on the
basis of a concern for the principles that may be inferred from the
statement and how these may be related to motives, responsibilities, and
relationships.
The important question is which type of generalization is more likely to
produce results that may support a global value system that can flourish
and develop in all cultures. Is God more interested in people's actions
than their hearts? Is the road to salvation a mechanically instrumental
one? Of course actions matter, but what underlies the actions must
matter at least as much if we are not to espouse a materialist view of
existence. And not only individual actions matter but also the broader
patterns of social interaction in which these actions are situated.
The early anti-slavery movement in the U.S. was deeply interconnected
with the development of feminism. These movements shared a common
position that it was not acceptable for one individual to have rights in
another's person or labor to an extent that violated the second
individual's rights in their own person. It was considered to be equally
evident that both slaves and 'free' women suffered under such a
disability and that the development of a moral and just society required
that their rights be restored and respected.
Unfortunately, the anti-slavery campaign degenerated into the cataloging
of stories of abuse and an attack based on arguing slavery's inhumane
practices rather than its fundamental illegitimacy. This allowed for the
eventual abolition of slavery without acknowledging the humanity of the
slaves and this side-stepping of the underlying question of rights also
permitted the disabilities under which women had suffered to continue.
The anti-slavery campaign was originally about basic concepts of human
rights and responsibilities. It reached its end on the basis of judgments
about specific acts. That the abolition of legal slavery appeared to end
such acts allowed the fundamental issues to remain undealt with. Both
Americans of African descent and all American women suffered the
consequences for over a century more. The moral issue in slavery was not
one of how masters treated slaves, but whether anyone had a right to be a
master. The moral issue in women's rights was not how husbands treated
wives, but whether husbands had a right to be a master. The moral
illegitimacy of masters was not in whether they treated their legal
subordinates well or ill, but in their assumption of the right to impose
their will and conscience on others.
All individuals are ultimately responsible to God for their actions. One
may decide that God has provided an explicit set of instructions as to
which actions are acceptable and decide to conform to this. This is
essentially the position of such groups as the Amish. Or one may decide
that God requires us to exercise moral judgment in each specific set of
circumstances according to basic principles by which we should structure
our lives and interaction with others. Either position is quite
defensible, but they have different social outcomes.
The first position leads to well defined communities with strong boundary
maintenance. These can be nurturative, satisfying, and secure
communities for those who choose to be in them, or can be experienced as
restrictive and repressive by others who may choose to leave. The second
position leads to heterogenous, associative communities which are less
concerned with boundary maintenance. These can be nurturative,
satisfying, and secure for those who choose to be in them, or can be
experienced as unfocused, lax, and uncomfortable by others who may choose
to leave.
The big problem is: If a religion rules out the possibility of schism
and yet is not inclined to accept within one broader community of
faith subsets who acknowledge (however grudgingly) the rights of other
subsets to have different perspectives on this basic issue of the
legalistic/ethical morality continuum, can that religion avoid being an
irrelevance to most of the people of the world?
Jackson
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 15:57:04 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: jejeune
Burl and John:
My favorite Juan's-word-of-the-week is "encomium."
Our man must be something fierce with the Times' crossword puzzle!!
Sandy
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 16:13:13 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: "The Tablet of the True Seeker" (fwd)
Dear friends--
All of my books are currently packed in boxes and being put into a storage
unit so I can't look up the information this person is requesting. Could
someone please respond. Thanx!
Nima
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 96 17:43:41 MEZ-1
From: Noorbakhsh Monzavi
To: sadra@Rt66.com
Cc: nmo@postman.hibo.no
Subject: "The Tablet of the True Seeker"
Dear Nima,
do you know what is the persian/arabic name for
"The Tablet of the True Seeker".
Is it from Bah 'u'll h or 'Abdu'l-Bah ?
Will be glad to know.
The content of the Tablet (which I got via internett) is enclosed.
Thanks for sending the Iran-News.
warm regards,
Noorbakhsh.
========================================================================
"Hear Me, ye mortal birds! In the Rose Garden of changeless splendor
a Flower hath begun to bloom, compared to which every other flower is
but a thorn, and before the brightness of Whose glory the very
essence of beauty must pale and wither. Arise, therefore, and with
the whole enthusiasm of your hearts, with all the eagerness of your
souls, the full fervor of your will, and the concentrated efforts of
your entiure being, strive to attain the paradise of His presence,
and endeavor to inhale the fragrance of the incoruptible Flower, to
breathe the sweet savors of holiness, and to obtain a portion of this
perfume of celestial glory. Whoso followeth this counsel will break
his chains asunder, will taste the abandonment of enraptured love,
will attain unto his heart's desire, and will surrender his soul into
the hands of his Beloved. Bursting through his cage, he will, even
as a bird of the spirit, wing his flight to his holy and everlasting
nest.
O My brother! When a true seeker determineth to take the step of
search in the path leading unto the knowledge of the Ancient of Days,
he must, before all else, cleanse his heart, which is the seat of the
revelation of the inner mysteries of God, from the obscuring dust of
all acquired knowledge, and the allusions of the embodiments of
satanic fancy. He must purge his breast which is the sanctuary of
the abiding love of the Beloved, of every defilement, and sanctify
his soul from all that pertaineth to water and clay, from all shadowy
and ephemeral attachments. He must so cleanse his heart that no
remnant of either love or hate may linger therein, lest that love
blindly incline him to error, or that hate repel him away from the
truth. Even as thou dost witness in this Day how most of the people,
because of such love and hate, are bereft of the immortal Face, have
strayed far from the Embodiments of the Divine mysteries, and,
shepherdless, are roaming through the wilderness of oblivion and
error.
That seeker must, at all times, put his trust in God, must renounce
the peoples of the earth, must detach himself from the world of dust,
and cleave unto Him Who is the Lord of Lords. He must never seek to
exalt himself above any one, must wash away from the tablet of his
heart every trace of pride and vain-glory, must cling unto patience
and resignation, observe silence and refrain from idle talk. For the
tongue is a smoldering fire, and excess of speech a deadly poison.
Material fire consumeth the body, whereas the fire of the tongue
devoreth both heart and soul. The force of the former lasteth but
for a time, whilst the effects of the latter endureth a century.
That seeker should, also, regard backbiting as a grievous error, and
keep himself aloof from its dominion, inasmuch as backbiting
quencheth the light of the heart, and extinguisheth the light of the
soul. He should be content with little, and be freed from all
inordinate desire. He should treasure the companionship of them that
have renounced the world and regard avoidance of boastful and worldly
people a precious benefit. At the dawn of each day he should commune
with God, and with all his soul, persevere in the quest of his
Beloved. He should consume every wayward thought with the flame of
His loving mention, and, with the swiftness of lightning, pass by all
else save Him. He should succor the dispossessed, and never
withhold his favor from the destitute. He should show kindness to
animals, how much more unto his fellow-man, to him who is endowed
with the power of utterance. He should not hesitate to offer up his
life for his Beloved, nor allow the censure of the people to turn him
away from the Truth. He should not wish for others that which he
doth not wish for himself, nor promise that which he doth not fulfil.
With all his heart he should avoid fellowship with evildoers and pray
for the remission of their sins. He should forgive the sinful, and
never despise his low estate, for none knoweth what his own end shall
be. How often hath a sinner attained, at the hour of death, to the
essence of faith, and, quaffing the immortal draught, hath taken his
flight unto the Concourse on high! And how often hath a devout
believer, at the hour of his soul's ascension, been so changed as to
fall into the nethermost fire!
Our purpose in revealing these convincing and weighty utterances is
to impress upon the seeker that he should regard all else beside
God as transient, and count all things save Him, Who is the Object of
all adoration, as utter nothingness."
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 17:39:30 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Car-pooling to Talisman Mysticism Conference
To: All Talisman/Bosch Mysticism Conference Participants flying into San
Jose Airport from out-of-state on Friday 23rd of February_
Dear friends--
Please get in touch with me asap so we can organize some kind of car-pool
to Bosch with the Shuttle service David indicated. Also indicate
time of arrival, flight # and airline so we can keep a good look out for
you.
I'll go first: arrival into San Jose is at approximately 3:25pm Friday
the 23rd, with America West flight 870 out of Phoenix.
Thanx!
Nima
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Bodhisattvas
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 18:52:05 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Bruce -
Nice to see you are still on Talisman. Haven't seen you post in
quite a while.
Today, I went to hear a Tibetan Buddhist lama this afternoon -
someone who studied under the Dalai Lama, in his monastary, and is now
teaching at a center near Cornell University in upstate New York. He
actually came to speak to one of my classes, but, as a result of having
been seen by myself and a few of my colleagues (whom I invited to
attend), he will likely be a scholar in residence during the next
academic year at this college. (Things seem to happen rather quickly
here - especially when you invite those who have their hands on the
purse strings .)
I have a question for you. I asked the lama, but I don't think he
was familiar enough with the terminology in the Gita, etc. to understand
what I was saying. I had always been told that a bodhisattva was one who
sacrificed his own quest for enlightenment in order to guide others to
buddhahood. However, I wonder if that may be an inaccurate translation.
When I explained to the lama what karma yoga meant, and asked if a
bodhisattva is actually one who strives to attains enlightenment through
the path of good deeds (sacrificing herself/himself for others), he
agreed. Which of these two definitions (or both or neither?) is your
understanding of the meaning of bodhisattva?
To the Light,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion Full-Time College Faculty *
*Past (1995) Pres., Kansas Sociological Society Owner, Baha'i Studies List *
*Director, Institute for Reality Science [sm] Co-Moderator, a Baha'i List *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Staff, 3 CompuServe Religion Fora, incl. Baha'i Section Leader (72642,3105) *
*Chief Baha'i Chat Host, America Online (TFPMark) mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us *
*Sysop, Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1) mfoster@tyrell.net *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The Prophets of God have been the Servants of Reality; Their
Teachings constitute the science of reality." - `Abdu'l-Baha
"The sciences of today are bridges to reality; if then they lead not
to reality, naught remains but fruitless illusion." - `Abdu'l-Baha
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 96 16:20 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Goodnight Irenic
Quick disclaimer: Any interaction between Mr. Cole and Irene, the majorette
economist, is subjective conjecture on what may have taken place in Juan's
younger pre-marriage days when he was still single, alone, lowly, jejune,
and confused as to his ultimate romantic destiny -- he is now, of course,
happily married and would never look twice at at majorette except as a
professional obligation or out of social courtesy.
Burl (save the whales) Barer
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
Unlimited!
********************************************************
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 96 16:20 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Hard Sell, Baha'i style
When asked about the benifit of being a Baha'i, Linda Walbridge said:
>Being a Baha'i has helped me understand how mullas think so I can do my
>research more easily.
>
>Does this help? Linda
Burl replied:
> Yes, perfect. You have made an important contribution to our project, as
witness this script:
RADIO SPOT
----------------------------
When the world ends, hell comes to earth! Giant fireballs raining from
the sky are nothing compared to the flame of terror about to grip
post-apocalypic earthlings in the late 1990's -- Post-Modernist
Neoplationist PsuedoClergy rule the west with iron fists -- forget "fair
trial," you're "Fair Game!" This is not science fiction -- this is social
fact! This isn't an afterschool special, this is the rest of your life --
unless you act now to protect yourself, your loved ones, and your last
traces of moral sanity by calling right now for your free Baha'i Spiritual
Surival Kit -- 999-1844 -- Your spiritual surival kit is free from the
Baha'is of (your town) and contains the world's most powerful prayers:
prayers to remove difficulties, protect you while shopping, and prayers to
make other people behave. Act now and you'll also receive 9-pointed Baha'i
Decoder Ring that instantly reduces any intellectual treatise to a twenty
five word vernacular condensation of conveniently memorized catch phrases!
WAIT! There's more! You also receive a laminated ID card that will get you
free coffee and light desert every 19 days, and 9 extra days off from work a
year -- 9 days that could make you live longer, love longer. Call now --
999-1844. Operators are standing by: 999-1844. This is the most important
call you'll ever make -- there is no time to Mulla this over, you must act
now or suffer forever --
call now! 999-1844
(Offer good only at participating Baha'i communities, some restrictions may
apply regarding sexual orientation)
***
John Walbridge, our list owner, then responded:
This is John writing. The correct phone number is *919-666*-1844.
>
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
Unlimited!
********************************************************
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 96 20:10 EST
From: Dariush Lamie <0007368608@mcimail.com>
To: "talisman@indiana.edu"
Subject: Re. Gasim Ghani
-- [ From: Dariush Lamie * EMC.Ver #2.3 ] --
Dr. Gasim Ghani was born in 1272. He had studied medicine and literature in
Bairut and Paris. Once he return to Iran, started writing books and got
involved in politics and never practiced medicine.
He lived in Mashhad for a while from where he was elected to the Iranian
congress *Majles-i shura-i melli* four times. Then he became a minister and
then an ambassador.
He had translated quite a few books and also wrote a two volume book called
History of mysticisim in Iran *Tarikh-i tasavof dar Iran* and in which he talks
a lot about Hafiz.
He was sick for a long time living in US and passed away at the age of 59.
Lovingly,
Dariush Lamie
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 17:08:55 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Oh God, increase my wonder...
Dear Talismans,
Posted today on Baha'i Discuss:
*********************
>>Around Christmas time on this discussion group, people were discussing
Handel's Messiah. I believe it's generally accepted that it refers to the
dispensation of Baha'u'llah. Before I go on, I'd like to quote something
from Lights of Guidance:
>> "...Strictly speaking the five-pointed star is the symbol of our
Faith, as used by the Bab and explained by Him. But the Guardian does not
feel it is wise or necessary to complicate our explanation of the Temple
by adding this."
>> (From a letter written on behalf of the Guardian to an individual
believer, October 28, 1949)
>> Now just the other day I was reading a book called Superlearning,
when I came across this paragraph:
>>
"The Delawarr Labs in England analyzed the wave fronts generated by
various kinds of music as it played through a solenoid, a magnet. They
got some surprising glimpses of this idea of underlying classic pattern.
When the wave fronts from the final chord of Handel's Messiah were charted
and overlaid, they formed a perfect five-pointed star."
*******************
Furthermore, electron microscopy of cross sections of the flagella of some
motile unicelled algae shows a perfect *9-pointed star* of supporting fibers.
How much we don't know about Oneness. Then, can't we learn to accept each
other?
Best,
Sandy
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: The True Seeker
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 19:21:07 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Nima -
Actually, there is no such thing as "The Tablet of the True Seeker."
That is simply a shorthand way of referring to a portion of the Iqan.
To the Light,
Mark (Foster)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion Full-Time College Faculty *
*Past (1995) Pres., Kansas Sociological Society Owner, Baha'i Studies List *
*Director, Institute for Reality Science [sm] Co-Moderator, a Baha'i List *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Staff, 3 CompuServe Religion Fora, incl. Baha'i Section Leader (72642,3105) *
*Chief Baha'i Chat Host, America Online (TFPMark) mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us *
*Sysop, Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1) mfoster@tyrell.net *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The Prophets of God have been the Servants of Reality; Their
Teachings constitute the science of reality." - `Abdu'l-Baha
"The sciences of today are bridges to reality; if then they lead not
to reality, naught remains but fruitless illusion." - `Abdu'l-Baha
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 17:05:00 -0800
From: derekmc@IX.NETCOM.COM (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Goodnight Irenic
To: burlb@bmi.net
---- Begin Forwarded Message
X-Sender: burlb@mail.bmi.net
X-My dear best friend Burl
I received a communication from the lovely Linda enquiring of my lack
of knowledge of the spouse of one Juan Cole PHD etc Professor of
History at the University of Michagan. I have replied to the dear lady
saying that I am fully aware of the delightful talented highly
intelligent Shirin. The one who has made Juan dress a lot better than
he did before their marriage. I believe the Giogio Armani Glasses he
wears are a result of the Lady's good taste to name but one
example.Naturally Burl you and I would never imply that Juan does not
act with the highest level of decorum despite Linda's efforts to
ensnare him in her dastardly plans at Mensa without the N. Juan , Linda
if you see this post as for some reasons my private posts are getting
on Talisman, like your husband John is a member of the esteemed order
of C. G. S. P.Do you really imagine he would ever sully the order with
wrong-doings nay it is beyond imagination. However the story of Irene
the Pom Pom Economist Burl and I stand it is a result of endless hours
of research we must publish and be true to our liberal democratic roots
whatever they are. Adam Smith Day or should it be the Adam Smith Month
that is a thought what a way to liberate the Economists of the World
the maligned aspects of academia.
Kindest Regards Burl from your best friend Derek
PS do you think Juan will ever speak to us again or do we have to play
our whale sound tapes to remind ourselves of him who was a dear true
friend until that rascal Haines appeared?
Quick disclaimer: Any interaction between Mr. Cole and Irene, the
majorette
economist, is subjective conjecture on what may have taken place in
Juan's
younger pre-marriage days when he was still single, alone, lowly,
jejune,
and confused as to his ultimate romantic destiny -- he is now, of
course,
happily married and would never look twice at at majorette except as a
professional obligation or out of social courtesy.
Burl (save the whales) Barer
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
Unlimited!
********************************************************
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 19:40:36 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Re: Hard Sell, Baha'i style
Dear Burl,
Something as good as what you described should not be free -
I suggest an introductry offer of only $19.95. The first
100 respondents get a copy of "Man Overboard".
regards,
sAmAn
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 96 20:39 EST
From: Dariush Lamie <0007368608@mcimail.com>
To: "talisman@indiana.edu"
Subject: Re. M.A. Furughi
-- [ From: Dariush Lamie * EMC.Ver #2.3 ] --
Dear Nima,
Dr. Muhammad Ali Furughi was from Azali's family. Originally, his great grand
father was Jewish from Baghdad who immigrated to Iran for business and once
living in Isfahan he became a Muslim.
Furughi himself had studied medicine but dedicated his most of his time to
literature. He was elected to the first Iranian congress *Majlis* and then
became a minister for several times and finally a prime minister from which he
resigned after a while. After the death of his father got the title *Zukha-al
Mulk*.
Furughi was a scholar and wrote several books such as *A survey on the European
philosophy*, and a history book.
Lovingly,
Dariush
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 19:43:23 -0700
To: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: Re: Books: A big Favor
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Arsalan wrote
> Would it be possible for you to post the top 10 books you have loved the most.
This is a difficult question for someone with my eclectic tastes and
vacilating opinions. I probably wouldn't answer it the same way twice. I'd
be interested in seeing the other responses but I suppose if they were all
posted openly on Talisman everyone would include "Man Overboard" so as not
to offend poor sensitive Burl and feel they had to include at least one
economics text on their list to avoid another storm of accusations and
harrangues about econophobics from that other touchy chap. Anyway here's my
top 10 - Sorry Burl, I did enjoy M.O.B. though.
Gord
Disturbing the Universe Feeman Dyson
What's Bred in the Bone Robertson Davies
Tristram Shandy Laurence Sterne
The Consolation of Philosophy Boethius
A Room Called Remember F. Buechner
The Old North Trail Walter McClintock
Black Elk Speaks Neihardt
The Metaphysics of Modern Existence Vine Deloria Jr.
We've Had 100 years of Psychotherapy and the World is Getting Worse
James Hillman &
Michael Ventura.
The American's are coming Herb Curtis
**********************************************************
"Even at our most believing we have our serious reservations, just as even
at our most unbelieving we cast a wistful glance over our shoulders".
Frederick Buechner, "A Room Called Remember"
***********************************************************---
Gordon McFarlane e-mail: MCFARLANE@upanet.uleth.ca
919 11th Street South
Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada
T1J 2P7
403-327-2987
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Homosexuality
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 20:40:27 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dave and other Talismanians -
Dave, I have just had a brief email exchange with someone which made
me a bit more confident about explaining more fully what I wrote in my
last message to you. To be honest, I am still hesitant to post it, since
I don't want to say anything which would offend the hearts of any of the
dear ones on this list. However, in the hope that my reflections will be
accepted as a mere offering to the consultative table, I have decided to
go ahead and express my thoughts. In looking back at my message, I think
that I may have given the incorrect impression that I wanted to hold
back my ideas, or to shroud them in secrecy.
Here is what I meant: I suspect that homosexuality may indeed have a
biological/neurological basis. However, I don't see it as a genetic, or
birth, "defect," as some folks (not on this list) have suggested. My
thoughts are partially based on my limited reading of the literature,
partially on my understanding of the Teachings, but mostly on my own
intuition.
I am proposing that what we now *see* as homosexuality may actually
be a manifestation of a neurological and evolutionary advantage giving
the individual the "inherited characteristic" (to use the Master's term
in _Some Answered Questions_) of a propensity for extraordinary
creativity. Homosexuality, perhaps, would develop when that creativity
is not sufficiently appreciated in the child due to intimacy (unity in
diversity) problems in one's family of orientation. (And, of course,
many, or perhaps most, families have some intimacy problems, so this
fact alone would not explain it.)
BTW, I do realize that my thoughts are not entirely original.
To the Light,
Mark (Foster)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion Full-Time College Faculty *
*Past (1995) Pres., Kansas Sociological Society Owner, Baha'i Studies List *
*Director, Institute for Reality Science [sm] Co-Moderator, a Baha'i List *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Staff, 3 CompuServe Religion Fora, incl. Baha'i Section Leader (72642,3105) *
*Chief Baha'i Chat Host, America Online (TFPMark) mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us *
*Sysop, Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1) mfoster@tyrell.net *
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The Prophets of God have been the Servants of Reality; Their
Teachings constitute the science of reality." - `Abdu'l-Baha
"The sciences of today are bridges to reality; if then they lead not
to reality, naught remains but fruitless illusion." - `Abdu'l-Baha
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
[end of 1/24/96 session]
Talisman emails received 1/25/96-1/26/96
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 19:12:21 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Car pooling to Bosch for the Mysticism Conference, warning
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismanians , San Jose has two terminals you need to decide which
terminal to meet at.
Kindest regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 20:38:25 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Dariush Lamie <0007368608@mcimail.com>
Cc: "talisman@indiana.edu"
Subject: Re: Re. Gasim Ghani
Dear Dariush--
Thanks for the informative post. I just checked the entry on Qasim Ghani in
Farhang-i Mo'in, volume 6, pp. 1269-70, which confirms all the details
you gave, but it doesn't mention anything about his being either from an
Azali or a Baha'i family. Is there source for this?
Yours,
Nima
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 20:43:37 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: frlw@midway.uchicago.edu, Masumian@mail.utexas.edu,
Noorbakhsh.Monzavi@hibo.no
Subject: Reuters 1/24/96 (fwd)
> 'IRAN' STORIES
>Transmission date: 96/01/24
> 1. 11:06 IRAN DEPLORES TERRORISM CHARGES BY TAJIK PRESIDENT
>
>=START= XMT: 11:06 Wed Jan 24 EXP: 1 :00 Sat Jan 27
>
>
> Iran deplores terrorism charges by Tajik president
> TEHRAN, Jan 24 (Reuter) - The Iranian government has expressed regret over
>Tajik accusations of Iran fostering terrorism in Tajikistan, local newspapers
>said on Wednesday.
> Foreign Ministry spokesman Mahmoud Mohammadi, quoted by the daily Salam,
>said Iran deplored remarks attributed to Tajik President Imomali Rakhmonov
>accusing the Islamic republic of ``teaching terrorist acts.''
> He was referring to remarks by Rakhmonov on Monday who railed against Iran,
>Pakistan and Afghanistan, accusing them of training guerrillas ``to terrorise
>the people of Tajikistan,'' after the murder in Dushanbe of Tajik Islamic
>spiritual leader Mufti Fatkhulla Sharipov and four of his family members.
> Iran ``supports national reconciliation, peace and stability in Tajikistan
>solely through peaceful means and negotiations,'' said Mohammadi, calling
>Sharipov's murder a ``blind act.''
> The newspaper Jomhuri Eslami on Wednesday blasted Rakhmonov for his remarks
>and urged the Tehran government to review its relations with Dushanbe.
> The remarks showed that Rakhmanov ``has a long way to go before he is able
>to speak out on the political and diplomatic affairs of his country,'' the
>hardline daily said.
> Iran and Afghanistan harbour leaders of the Islamic wing of the Tajik
>opposition, driven into exile after briefly holding the upper hand during
>intense fighting in 1992 against pro-Moscow forces in the former Soviet state
>of 5.7 million people.
> Iran, which shares a common language with Tajikistan, has repeatedly urged
>the Tajik government and the opposition to resolve their conflict through
>negotiations.
> Tehran hosted direct talks between Rakhmonov and opposition leader Abdollo
>Nuri in July 1995, one of several rounds of inconclusive negotiations.
>
>=END=
>
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 96 12:23:22 PST
Subject: FW: away from avoiding the issues ...
To: talisman@indiana.edu
On Wed, 24 Jan 1996 06:29:02 -0500 Geocitizen@aol.com wrote:
>
>When Jim suggested that the most urgent need and the most effective
path
>before us is to treat the underlying spiritual disease, rather than
attempt
>to remedy each of the resulting symptoms, Philip accused him of " .
. . High
>Intolerance in the name of utopean beliefs . . ." and of believing
that " . .
>. the goals are too glorious to allow for such impediments as
compassion,
>critical thought, personal reservations based on misgivings."
>
>But what I am seeing in these responses is far less generous of
spirit, for
>they seem to accuse him of consciously eschewing such values as
freedom of
>intellectual inquiry, compassion, and human rights.
This kind of accusation
>clearly falls within Talisman's prohibition of ad hominem arguments,
but even
>worse than that, it obscures the issues we must overcome if we are
to build
>from Baha'u'llah's vast Revelation the new models of community life
that can
>transcend the limitations of all ideologies currently in practice.
>
>Regards,
>Kevin Haines
Dear Kevin.
You might be right. I'm not sure.I feared that my response was
strident. I know that I found Jim approach profoundly upsetting and
that my response was as much from my heart as my head.
However, and ad hominem argument attacks the person. I believe I have
attack Jim's approach to the issue, but not attacked Jim.
I hold that, if you want to know what someone holds sacred, then look
at what they defend most ardently.
I have some belief that what is most sacred is the freedom each
person has to find his/her own way to God. Along with that there is
some freedom to be confused, to try blind alleys, to take bad advice,
all that.
In fact, I think I hold that freedom to search more precious than I
do the revelations themselves. I'm sure it is a reflection of my
stage. I've often said that I am somewhere between the Valley of
Search and the Valley of Certitude -- with the Valley of Love in
between.
The freedom to find my own way into Love and to have the love be
truly true to me, a genuine purification of me -- that is more
important to me than ..... I don't know than what.
But when I read Jim's postings at the most personal level I hear his
impatience with me and my struggles. And, in a very personal way, I
say to myself, that Loving is hard enough without being nagged about
it.
I hear it as a kind of nagging. And I hear what he is saying as a
kind of disqualification of a thought process and and emotional
process in my that take an enormous amount of time and effort.
And I wonder to myself, ( and here is starts to risk getting
personal), has this guy solved all this stuff that is taking me so
long? And if he has, why is he so impatient with? Doesn't he know
how hard it is? And I wonder. Has he solved this stuff or is he
trying to skate over it.
These are very private musings and I haven't the slightest idea about
the reality of Jim's spiritual life.
But when I gave a presentation at my local group about the Seven
Valleys there were a couple old time Bahais who said that they'd
never spent time in the Valley of Search or the Valley of Love. They
just knew the truth about Baha'ullah and that was that. Frankly, I
don't believe it.
Well, thanks for the soap box.
My apologies if I've further offended you. This is difficult material
for me and I try to manage it responsibly. Sometimes I succeed.
Philip
>
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/24/96
Time: 12:23:23
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 96 09:05:10 PST
Subject: RE: Re sex and values
To: talisman@indiana.edu, Doug Myers
Hi All. This is Philip
On Tue, 23 Jan 1996 20:43:01 -0800
>In answer to Jack Armstrong Ingrams long posting, Re: Sex and
Values, on all the difference kinds of sexual mores I the world, I
wrote:
>
>>This was the strongest and most complete argument against the Bahai
>>position on homosexuality I have yet read.
>>
>>Moreover, it seems to be a very solid attack on the basic claim
that
>>Bahai represents a new unifying religion.
>>
>>As Derek Jacoby said in Dead Again, I can't wait to see what
happens
>>next.
>
And Doug wrote back to me:
>Life never fails to amuse me. When I read the post my thoughts
were:
>"Thank God there is the Baha'i Faith to bring a firm moral standard
and
>understanding to the world."
>
>Question: Did Philip and I read the same post or does this
dichotomy of
Here is my answer.
We read the same post. My answer seemed incredible to Doug. I saw in
the Armstrong posting a description of all the different ways
cultures have seen fit to set up moral rules to regulate and
structure sexuality. The clear message to me was that, when you take
a broad view, you find that there are many different and perhaps
incompatible moral and right ways to behave sexually.
So I asked myself this question:, If the Bahai way to regulate is
sexuality is seen as The One and Only Right Way, then does that mean
whole cultures are morally wrong? And if that is indeed the
conclusion, then does that mean that for Bahai to be the unifying
world religion, all the cultures of the world will have to accept the
Bahai rules for sexual conduct? And how is this different from the
kind of Christianity that has changed so many Native Cultures? What
is the nature of this Unity we are bringing?
And I confess that I have a fear here. My fear is that we become no
different than than kind of Imperialistic Christianity that did so
much violence to the Native Cultures of the world whenever it had the
opportunity through political and military power?
So that was how I read out the implications.
Doug's response, that we should be thankful that the Bahai faith
brings a "firm moral standard," suggests to me that my concerns might
not be wrong. (Which is not to say that my concerns are right.) His
response suggests that he believes that the presence of a firm moral
standard is needed to let us know that many of these native people,
even though they think they are acting morally, really aren't.
Sincerely
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/24/96
Time: 09:05:11
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 96 12:10:28 PST
Subject: FW: Re: FW: Re: Homosexuality
To: talisman@indiana.edu, 748-9178@mcimail.com
On Wed, 24 Jan 1996 11:30:16 -0500 Alex Tavangar wrote:
>Dear Philip,
>
>You asked the following intriguing question in response to my post.
It
>sounds clever, but I wish I could decipher it! Would you lend me a
hand
>please? (I admit that I am not as well-read as others on this list)
>
>>Does God, whose eye is on the sparrow, Triage?
>
>
>Thanks
>
>Alex B. Tavangar
>
---
Dear Alex,
I made my comment in response to your claim that God sets priorities.
My faith is that God does not. At least I hope not.
The teachings of Jesus were that "His eye is on the sparrow."
Meaning that God really cares about things that many of us would
consider most insignificant. That is meaning, I think, of faith in a
Personal God.
Triage is a kind of setting of priorities. It comes from emergency
medical practice. In a terrible accident you divide the survivors
into three groups. Doing that is called Triage. One group is those
who will die no matter what you do. One group is those who will get
through, even though they are in terrible pain. And the last group is
those who could survive but only if treated immediately.
If you have limited resources (which we are told God does not) then
you have to make choices. You save the last group, you let the second
group suffer and you let the first group die. That's triage.
I think something like that often exists in the world of spiritual
development, but the teaching is that God will never abandon us to
our fate. Somedays I believe it.
Sincerely,
Philip
----------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/24/96
Time: 12:10:29
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 21:01:04 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: DEREK COCKSHUT
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Car pooling to Bosch for the Mysticism Conference, warning
Derek--
What are the terminal names and where are they situated in relation to
one another?
Nima
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 23:01:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Timothy A. Nolan"
To: asadighi@ptialaska.net, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Books: A big Favor
asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi) writes:
> Friends,
>
> I would like to ask you a very big favor. Would it be possible for you to
> post the top 10 books you have loved the most? It can be on any subject,
> fiction or non-fiction, Baha'i, Baha'inot, etc.
-The Hidden Words
-God Passes By
-The Brothers Karamazov............Dostoevsky
-Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance......Pirsig
-Old Turtle ( a childrens' book about God).....Wood (text), Chee(pictures)
I STRONGLY RECOMMEND THIS BOOK
-Apology and Phaedo.........Plato
-Heaven's My Destination, and Our Town.........Thornton Wilder
O.K., so "Our Town" is a play, not a book. I loved it.
-The Razor's Edge......Maugham
-any essays by Marzieh Gail
Tim Nolan
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 18:07:15 +1300 (NZDT)
To: belove@sover.net, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: RE: Re sex and values
Dear Philip,
For the past fortnight of so I have been skirting the rim of the
volcano and have decided that it is OK to avoid incineration, but -- just
for the hell of it -- I'm going to respond, briefly, to your posting. I
have an ulterior motive, actually, and that is to give the correct name of
someone I called "Livingstone" in my SDC 16 letter of today. Your letter
alluding to the same matter as I wrote of in the SDC letter, carried the
gentleman's name: Jack Armstrong Ingram... I won't say anything more about
his letter here, except as it was seen through the filter of your eyes.
Clear? (Just nod and say yes!)
You wrote:
The clear message to me was that, when you take
>a broad view, you find that there are many different and perhaps
>incompatible moral and right ways to behave sexually.
Yes
>
>So I asked myself this question:, If the Baha'i way to regulate is
>sexuality is seen as The One and Only Right Way, then does that mean
>whole cultures are morally wrong?
Yes, in theory at least. (The SDC extract makes that clear)
For instance. Western sexual practices are generally out of kilter with
the Divine Standard, and the cause of much misery,
And if that is indeed the
>conclusion, then does that mean that for Baha'i to be the unifying
>world religion, all the cultures of the world will have to accept the
>Baha'i rules for sexual conduct? And how is this different from the
>kind of Christianity that has changed so many Native Cultures? What
>is the nature of this Unity we are bringing?
I don't know how much time you have actually spent with native peoples, but
I think that if you went and lived among them you would be absolutely
horrified at the cultural oppression and material/physical misery that is
all too often their lot. The Faith is able to accommodate and encourage
uniqueness, AND relieve oppression and misery (ie., civilise). It is far
to easy for the well-off to sentimentalise native cultures...and thereby
increase their marginality. Everyone wants a slice of the
modern/postmodern pie. And that's the bottom line. Ask Vietnamese boat
people. Ask the Japanese.. (Whaddaya say Jim? Steve..?)
>
>And I confess that I have a fear here. My fear is that we become no
>different than kind of Imperialistic Christianity that did so
>much violence to the Native Cultures of the world whenever it had the
>opportunity through political and military power?
The senile old age of Christianity is hardly comparable with the vigorous
youthfulness of the Faith. One must be fair and detached in analysis.
His
>response suggests that he believes that the presence of a firm moral
>standard is needed to let us know that many of these native people,
>even though they think they are acting morally, really aren't.
Most of the peoples of the world are really uncertain about right and
wrong, and are therefore able to be led by people who bring them no real
advantage. If I genuinely believed that my religion brought disadvantages
to the peoples of the world, I would surely be mentally sick to remain a
follower.
Robert.
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 22:08:49 -0700
To: "Hannah E. Reinstein" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: alma@indirect.com (Alma Engels)
Subject: RE: Homosexuality & entry by troops
Dear Hannah,
Thanks for the rose. Lovely. In reply let me send you one of mine -- a
poem I wrote.
Heart red
slim stemmed Don Juan
blooms faithful for a week.
And, considerate for a rose,
no thorns.
As for srb. In all fairness, they seem to be doing a good job in that they
do allow Baha'is to express differing opinions. If they were to decide what
should be posted, I suspect that a lot of what I call 'stupider' posts, in
that they contain misinformation as opposed to a differing opinion, would be
eliminated -- as would posts such as mine which present a point of view most
would rather ignore and certainly don't want broadcast to non-Baha'is
reading srb.
In peace,
Alma
To tread the path of Love Alma Engels
Is no mere game. alma@indirect.com
For only one
Out of many thousands
Can persevere in His Love. (Tahirih)
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 96 21:24:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: M.A. Furughi
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Its great to have the learned voice of Dariush Lamie on Talisman
again and I for one look forward to hearing it more often.
It seems that Furughi was the last of Azalis with important
political connections. He, as the Prime Minister during the
transition time (when Reza Shah left Iran and Furughi became the
most powerful man in the country), emerged on the footstep of
Hasan Taqizadeh, the speaker of the parliament, who was an
important Azali figure during the Reza Shah period. During the
time of Taqizadeh, Isma'il Mirat (another Azali with a typical
Azali name!), was the Minister of Education.
It was Mirat who gave prominence to `Allamih Muhammad Qazvini by
assigning him the important project of publishing the edited
version of Hafiz poems. In this project, Qazvini collaborated
with a fellow Azali, Dr. Qasim Ghani. Actually, Ghani was far
more qualified than Qazvini as he reportedly owned 700
manuscripts of Hafiz. (Significantly more qualified than either
of these two, was an ex-Baha'i, Ustab Furzanfar -- one of the
ablest mind of the 20th century Iran.) And the fact that this
important project was given to Qazvini, which put him on the
literary map of Iran, right after Qazvini's collaboration with
Browne to produce Nuqtatu'l-Kaf, should raise a flag.
It seems that with departure of Furughi, the Azali political
fortunes declined sharply.
The whole issue of Azali's central role during the Constitutional
revolution of 1905-9 and later influence in political and
literary circles (not to mention the financial empire of
Dulat-Abadi clan) remains to be explored further at some future
time.
Of course the real question with Azalis is what role did the
British have in all of this ... and in particular why did E.G.
Browne befriend and exalt them so??!
regards, ahang.
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 22:03:09 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
Cc: asadighi@ptialaska.net, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Books: A big Favor
A real toughy but here goes:
1. The Sufi Path of Knowledge - William C. Chittick
2. The Wisdom of the Throne - Mulla Sadra (translated, annotated and with
an introduction by James Winston Morris).
3. The Science of Mystic Lights - John Walbridge
4. Spiritual Body and Celestial Earth - Henry Corbin
5. Esoterism as Principle and Way - Frithjof Schuon
6. Knowledge and the Sacred - Seyyed Hossein Nasr
7. A Year Amongst the Persians - E.G. Browne (someone should seriously
think about making this into a movie!)
8. The Symbolism of the Cross - Rene Guenon
9. Sacred Art East and West - Titus Burckhardt
10. The Triumphal Sun - Annemarie Schimmel
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 22:04:35 -0800
From: nabfares@IX.NETCOM.COM (Azadeh Mohandessi-Fares & Nabil Fares )
Subject: Re: Surah Hashr
To: lua@sover.net (LuAnne Hightower)
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Allah'o'Abha LuAnne
Thank you for your kind reply. I hope that my response was really
useful.
You are welcome to visit with us in Sacramento. I will list the events
that I am aware of during your stay 2/15 - 2/21
2/17 New Era Baha'i School 9:30 - 11:00 a.m.
Studying the Aqdas
2/18 Sacramento Baha'i School
William Sears Baha'i School
2/17 or 2/18 you are welcome to visit with us and chat about the
writings, and the Faith activity in Vermont. Azadeh & I (+ our
2 daughters 8 & 6) spend 7 years in Boston before moving to
Sacramento five years ago
2/20 Deepening on the Tablets of Baha'u'llah. We are studying the
Words of Paradise
2/21 Indegenous Pepole Teaching Institute (with special focus on the
Native Americans population)
You are welcomed to all. If this will be O.K. with you, and you have
the time to do it, please feel free to call or drop in.
(916)481-7906
3560 West Way
Sacramento
CA 95821-2702
You wrote:
>
>Allah-u-Abha, Nabil.
>
>I wish to thank you for your thoughtful response to my query. Your
comments
>are quite useful to me in my very rudimentary study of Arabic.
>
>I did notice on your signature that you are in Sacramento. I will be
there
>visiting my sister prior to the Bosch conference in February. I
arrive the
>15th and leave the 21st. Are there any firesides, deepenings or other
>Baha'i gatherings that I could attend during my stay?
>
>Again, your help is much appreciated.
>
>Yours in gratitude,
>LuAnne Hightower
>Brattleboro, Vermont
>
>
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 16:20:47 -0600 (CST)
From: Robert Lee Green
To: asadighi@ptialaska.net
Cc: "talisman@indiana.edu"
Subject: Re: Firesides
> On Mon, 22 Jan 1996 12:54:58 -0900 Arsalan J. Sadighi wrote:
> >Friends,
> >
> >My question has to do with how to attract seekers to firesides and
> what
> >topics to present.
Now I say the Tablet of Ahmad to attract seekers and entry by troops, but
before I would just pray for receptive souls. The Tablet has helped me see
attraction is only part of the process; we are also tasked to show them
our love, and why we feel this love for Baha'u'llah, and how this love has
transformed everything. It is this love which provides the attraction.
Our parents provide our first contact with love, but God is the source.
The more we can turn our hearts to God, the more attractive we become to
others. People desire to be treated with respect, and kindness, and tact
and beauty. Is it any wonder that we respond to this call whereever we
find it? Is it any wonder that these themes are eternal to the call of God.
What else do we do to attract seekers?
We hand out flyers; We put ads in the paper, on cable TV; We present
Dialogue: Racism; We write about the Faith for our classes; We talk to our
friends, We attend city council meetings, civic meetings; We visit churches
and libraries and chamber's of commerce and malls; We talk to strangers,
and from all this I find that the one thing that attracts seekers more than
anything else.
Our ability and willingness to pay ONE HUNDRED PERCENT ATTENTION to the
person seeking. Being able to hear and sense the seekers concerns and to
help them find how Baha'u'llah effectively addresses their concerns is
vital. In fact, I find that it is only when I am able to pay ONE
HUNDRED PERCENT ATTENTION to other people that I find myself finding
seekers, and I have been fortunate in this respect. Thanks to God. :-)
This also relates to "drowning my troubles," I tell you it works :-)
Maybe we need bigger troubles
I tend to find myself "inviting" people to firesides when they express any
type of interest in Baha'u'llah, the Baha'i community or the new world order.
I am fortunate to be living in one of the areas where the Amatu'l-Baha
Teaching Crusade is being implemented, and so have the opportunity to
invite people to several different types of activities throughout the
week. And I have the bounty of attending a university with a very
active Baha'i Association for the past four years.
On Monday evening we gather to discuss issues presented by women.
On Tuesday evening we have new Baha'i orientation.
On Wednesday evening we sponsor "What is a Baha'i?" fireside.
On Thursday evening we host a dialogue on racism.
On Friday evening we return to what is a Baha'i?
On Saturday evening we allow the youth to host activities.
On Sunday mornings we offer deepenings for children and adults.
On Sunday evenings the Inter-Assembly Council for Teaching meets.
One type of event for new Baha'i orientation would resemble the idea
contributed below
> My firesides tended to be like deepenings. But the most popular one I
> did was to go through the Seven Valleys a valley at a time. . . .
> But a good time was had by all.
I think a having "fun" time while with members of the community is the best way
to attract seekers>
And I have found that this approach is also a good way to find people who
may already be attracted, but don't know how to find me :-)
>. . . .Some sort of personal service
> project that causes me to rub up against a lot of folks I might not normally
> meet... a soup kitchen, interfaith, AIDS foundation sort of things are ways
> that I have met folks when I'm new or in need of making new contacts... just
> some thoughts.
And if you are planning a really large fireside, you might want to divide
the labor, as was suggested; with small changes
1) INVITERS: people who are comfortable meeting the public and who
also associate with people with humility and joy when presenting
Baha'u'llah's precious gift. >
2) ORGANIZERS: people who help create a warm atmosphere. These people
often throw great parties.
3) SPEAKERS: people who love Baha'u'llah and want to do their best to
share his message with the rest of the family.
> IMHO, it might be helpful for the Friends to team up.
I agree with this completely, but I also think their should be more
seekers than one, for being the only seeker in a group of Baha'is may be
umcomfortable for some people, and it is the Baha'i responsibility to
know if their numerical presence is a strength.
When choosing a topic, I try to remember that what God wants is happy
people. And I try to find out if they are happy; I have to listen to find
out. Then I try to find out what Baha'u'llah has to say or what
principles are involved, and this process usually presents a topic which
is totally pertinent, flexible and grounded in the Baha'i Faith.
Topics
And please be brief, one person should be very wary of speaking for
longer than 10 minutes, unless the Firesides was presented just for your
being there :-) Every member of the community needs to be heard, even
those who are not well grounded. They might be cautioned to ask questions
when not sure, but they must be present and heard. A fireside is a form
of consultation, and "Consultation means finding out what everybody else
is thinking about" (Songs for Baha'i Children).
During the past four years of regular college firesides the most well
attended were: Christ has Returned
Racism there is a Cure
A Woman's Place
Global Security
A Spiritual solution to the Economic Crisis
and Peace More than an End to War
hope this helps :-) Boy am I long winded today
------------------------------------------------
| "O SON OF SPIRIT! |
Robert Green | My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, |
rlg0001 | kindly and radiant heart, that thine may |
@jove.acs.unt.edu | be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable |
| and everlasting." - Baha'u'llah |
------------------------------------------------
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 16:29:22 -0600 (CST)
From: Robert Lee Green
To: "Arsalan J. Sadighi"
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu, Doug_Moore@admin.state.ak.us,
Mark_Insteness@dot.state.ak.us
Subject: Re: US AND THEM
Arsalan, Arsalan, Arsalan
There is no them, just us :-)
justice
------------------------------------------------
| "O SON OF SPIRIT! |
Robert Green | My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, |
rlg0001 | kindly and radiant heart, that thine may |
@jove.acs.unt.edu | be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable |
| and everlasting." - Baha'u'llah |
------------------------------------------------
=END=
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 1996 23:18:01 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Re Bosch Mysticism Conference car pool.
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismanians .
The new terminal has flights in from American airlines < not American
West> South West and Reno Air , all other airlines come into the old
terminal. I would suggest you all meet in the old terminal an excellent
shuttle service runs between the two terminals. A good meeting
place is by the Alaska airlines gate at the far end of the old terminal
plenty of seating and a place to get coffee and light meals. The new
terminal only has refreshments and decent seating in the departure area
after you have cleared luggage. Only an Economist could be so through
so have you E'Mailed Linda yet your support for Adam Smith Day/Month.
She very kindly is arranging this isn't she wonderful but Richard
Logan will be history at Bosch when Linda caspture him.I am taking
orders for the video $39.95.
Kindest regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 00:06:37 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: just another old poem
Ol' Hank Ryan . . .
. . . he musta walked
a hunnred miles a week or more
in that old dirty coat 'e wore
and that there beaver hat.
Winner, summer, hodd'r cold
din't make no dif ' t' him,
be on the road come rain 'r shine
with that there silly grin,
and gosh-all-hemlock
lord only knows
how many pairs a boots
that critter's gone through!
Never seen 'im that 'e din't have
that scruffy stubble on 'is face.
Never shaved, yet never growed a beard
and god 'e stunk some kinda bad.
'E wern't a bright lad that's fer sure,
prob'ly never seen the inside of a school.
But 'e'd come inta visit now and then
t' let us know 'bout all the goens-on-around.
Them Milne boys - well, they usta tease
Ol' Hank some kinda fierce.
But 'e'd just grin sorta silly like
an' keep on goen.
'An one day that there youngest Milne
got frightful mad -(ah don't recollect quite why),
an' sez t' Hank, "I'd smack yuh one!
but mamma told us never strike a fool."
Well, ol' Hank puts on
that tabacca droolin' toothless grin a his
an' sez t' them there Milne boys,
"I guess yer mamma din't want you fellahs
fight'n 'mongst yerselves".
Gordon McFarlane
89
=END=
Date: 25 Jan 96 02:25:35 EST
From: Habib Riazati <76101.3361@compuserve.com>
To: Azadeh Mohandessi-Fares & Nabil Fares
Cc: Talisman
Subject: Re: Surah Hashr
Dearest Nabil, Allah'u'abha
Thank you very much for sending me a copy of your response to
the question of Surah Hahr. Your profound and up to date information
is rigt on and does not leave room for much of anything else to be
said on this question.
With warmest regards; Habib Riazati
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@AOL.COM
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 05:07:51 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: tablet of the true seeker
Dear All ,
Last spring I put this question to our dear Stepehen Lambden as the
piece Nima quoted is one of my absolute favorites . Stephen responded to me
by saying that this tablet is called :
Lawh - i Ashiq va Mashiq
tablet of the Lover and the Beloved -- Gleanings (1) pgs. 319-322
warm regards ,
Terry
=END=
From: Alethinos@AOL.COM
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 04:53:25 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Natural Law: What it is not and is . . . Part II
To continue on with Plato's definitions of the term *nature* and how this
fits into the concept of natural law:
Plato and Socrates' main concern was to counter the philosophy of the
materialist, which they saw as destructive to human life. In Book IV of the
Laws Plato again argues against the materialists who contend, to varying
degrees, that might makes right. Plato refers to nature as being directed by
God, and that justice attends Him.
But then, in conscious opposition to this physicalist conception of nature,
Plato gives his own answer. "God, as the ancient saying has it, holding the
beginning, the middle, and the end of all beings, moves in a straight path
according to nature and justice always attends Him."(Laws) This cosmic order
of nature carries its own norms within it. That which follows these norms
achieves some degree of fulfillment. That which deviates is eliminated. In
the case of men who are capable of exercising choice in the matter, those who
would be happy must order their lives in accordance with natural law: those
who seek power in the madness of the hubris are justly punished by
frustration and destruction.[Laws 716]. Here is a clear expression of
Plato's conception of a moral law founded on the very nature of things and
thus enforced by natural sanctions. Nature determines what modes of being are
good for a thing, whatever it may
be, and also their order of greater or lesser importance. Thus, wealth is to
be sought "only for the sake of the body, and the welfare of the body for the
sake of the soul; and this order of subordination exists by nature,"[Laws
870b4-5].
B. Nature as the eidetic structure of concrete entities
In the Timaeus 50, Plato speaks of the concrete objects of the world as
composite. Each of these composite objects is a mixture of "something vague
and indefinite, with something fixed and determinate. In this sense nature
is equivalent to the essential Form (idea) which makes each concrete entity
what it is. In the Republic [598a1] the question is raised as to whether the
painter attempts to represent each thing as it is in its very nature or in
its pure structure. If so, he would be a scientist or a philosopher. But this
is not the case. The purpose of the artist is different. He is trying to
represent the concrete existent with all its individual qualities and
peculiar accidents.
Here nature is being used to refer to the pure form, or idea as Plato calls
it. Individual entities only imitate or participate in these forms which are
never perfectly present. But the finest examples of concrete things come
sufficiently close so that they may suggest their archetypes to the
discerning intellect. Thus, in the myth of the Phaedrus, when the charioteer
sees a very beautiful object [254b] he is reminded of "the nature of the
beautiful," the pure idea of beauty itself. In the Philebus (25a) we are told
that when we see the similarities of those existential factors which are
subject to more or less, we gather them all together and impress on them the
seal of a single nature. There are many other instances of such usage in the
dialogues. So nature here means the determinate structure of the object. But
there are other factors involved with regard to the nature of the composite
(finite) things.
C. Nature as formally determined tendency
For Plato the definition of nature just given is only partial. There are
other structural
elements of an object's nature other than (strictly) its Form.In the Phaedrus
270d-e, Socrates speaks of understanding the nature of a thing, whether it is
simple or complex, and if complex, "to enunciate its parts . . .". Plato
quite often, in light of this definition connects nature with change. In the
Laws 892c, Plato is arguing against what he
considers three heresies which should not go unchallenged. These are atheism,
Epicureanism,(to borrow a def. though historically it had not been *born*
yet) and, the very worst of all, that one can sin against God and escape the
consequences by giving gifts and offerings. What does this have to do with
nature in this context? As A.E. Taylor explains, Plato sees these concepts
as a ravenous disease, literally pulling the fabric of the soul apart. All
three reject the notion that there are natural consequences in running
counter to our nature. Each of these destroy the foundation of human
civilization by introducing, in their own way, subjectivism into human
society. In these concepts the nature of an entity cannot be defined, and so
what is best for the entity can never be determined. This allows a human to
behave in whatever manner he desires, since humans are rational and capable
of escaping the restrictions placed upon non-rational creatures by their
nature. This, as Socrates and Plato saw it, was disastrous for human society,
since humans could behave like animals, but with far graver consequences. So
for Plato, to not recognize or reject nature as a tendential element moving
an entity toward greater perfection of that very nature is devastating.
As we have seen, no doctrine is more essential to the philosophy of natural
law than that of the unfinished or tendential character of finite existence.
There is hardly a page in Plato which does not either explicitly express or
imply this doctrine. It is perhaps most strikingly asserted in a well-known
passage of the Phaedo (75), which has attracted the attention of many
commentators. A centrally crucial element of Plato's definition of nature is
the role of Form to the sensible entity. We have so far only touched briefly
on this matter, but it is without a doubt the foundation of Plato's concept
of natural law. The nature of an entity is tendential because it is in the
process of participating increasingly) in the Form(s) which informs its
essence. Unlike the atheist or epicurean who views the nature of a thing as
static, simply in existence with no essential purpose,
this definition of nature recognizes that all entities are in the process of
becoming. For Plato they are becoming a greater (or lesser) manifestation of
the Form(s).
According to Plato then, pure Form, such as Justice or Beauty does not reside
in a
concrete entity - rather the entity participates in the Form. In an analogy
that more clearly demonstrates what Plato means by participation we can
review the Republic 508b-d. The analogy is of the sun. The sun is the Good
from which all other Forms emanate.
The emphasis of this passage as well as numerous others, is that all finite
entities are in the process of (tending toward) fulfilling their nature. That
nature, in this respect, is the capacity of an entity to manifest or reflect
the Forms (or attributes).
The imperfect forms of actual entities are ever striving to complete
themselves. The word
nature is often used not only for structure but also for the dynamic
tendencies determined by this structure. Thus in the interesting passage of
the Phaedrus [270d], to which we have already referred, Plato tells us that
in studying any nature we must first try to understand its pure eidetic
structure and then the active and passive powers determined by this
structure, how it acts and how it suffers "by nature." Such a natural
tendency may be thwarted and distorted, but it cannot be wholly eliminated,
for as we are told in the Timaeus [62b], what is, for example, contracted
against nature fights to free itself from obstruction in accordance with
nature. The nature of every
being disposes or fits it for certain acts which fulfil this nature. Thus
justice is defined in the Republic (433a6), as rendering to every man his
due, or enabling him to practice "that for which his nature is best fitted."
The world then is not chaotic, which is how Plato asserts the materialists
(including the
atheist, epicurean, etc) philosophies would have it. There are, according to
Plato, sub-rational and rational tendencies. The sub-rational tendencies are
regular sequences determined by recurrent tendencies. Thus a horse will
always generate a horse even if the new-born is deformed. Indeed, a
deformation would be seen as a thwarted tendency in the nature of the
formation of the horse. But despite the deformation, it is still a horse
genetically. Humans are rational creatures. Human tendencies, unlike animals,
do not work in an automatic way. They are subject to spontaneous rational
control, which may obstruct or distort the basic tendencies of nature through
ignorance or intemperance. Nevertheless, these basic tendencies cannot be
entirely eliminated. As opposed to incidental desires, there are certain
necessary needs for food and drink which must be
realized to some degree if human life is to be lived at all. They cannot be
escaped. Also, if pursued under rational control, they are not only
apparently but really beneficial. We pursue such tendencies by "a necessity
of nature." [Republic 558d-e]. The same distinction plays an important role
in the argument of the Phaedo, which is often interpreted as advocating the
most extreme and unqualified asceticism. This however is not the case. The
philosopher does not despise material things as such, but only "in so far as
there is no great necessity of having them" [Phaedo 64e1; cf. e5, 67a3-4, and
83b7]
There are other human tendencies as well. The most important of these is the
"cognitive
urge." These tendencies can be ignored or distorted also, but they too can
never be wholly eliminated. "By its very nature every human soul beholds real
being". [Phaedrus 249e]. Reason is clearly the most accurate and
comprehensive of all our cognitive faculties. Ordinarily it is suppressed or
weakened by neglect. Nevertheless by nature it is the ruling faculty. Reason
alone can lead us to the human good.
More later.
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 05:40:14 -0500
To: belove@sover.net
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: FW: away from avoiding th...
Dear Phillip ,
On the Seven Valleys and skipping search and love . I dont believe it
either . From my perspective they are all "nested " within one another and
keep reappearing inrelation to each stage of spiritual development. Perhaps I
could say - each time a new "Name" , a form of your Lord is to be realized
within the soul , moving from its hidden to manifest state the process
begins anew , albeit in a different form . The last valley is only the
beginning as Bahau llah notes towards the end of the valley of True Poverty.
And as we know the "first " and the "last" , the "hidden" and the
"manifest " are divine stages present within the soul of his eminance as
Bahau llah states in the Valley of Unity - ( the key valley in this little
treatise in my view). In short thinking one has skipped "search" the first
or beginning, is to skip "absolute nothingness" the last which is really only
the beginning - and the begining and end are one in relation to God . My
thought is don't be disappointed in the Valey of Search it is as close to the
Beloved as any .
warm regards,
Terry
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 96 22:33:01 PST
Subject: Re: Dali Lama's prostrations/ Re: G-ETHIC ARCHIVES ...
To: "Eric D. Pierce" ,
Bruce Burrill
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
I read about it in the American Bahai,in early 1994. It may have been
front page.
On Wed, 24 Jan 1996 17:06:32 -0600 Bruce Burrill wrote:
>At 02:31 PM 1/24/96 PST8PDT, you wrote:
>>Hi Bruce/Talismanians,
>>
>>I'll defer to your opinion with the exception that it seemed
>>that some of the Baha'i folk responding to you seemed to be
>>initially hostile to your viewpoint (too bad).
>>
>
>Eric,
>
>I think that had to do with the fact that Baha'i got rather roughly
handled
>earlier by others on G-ETHIC.
>
>>I tried to post a message on G-ETHIC asking about the incident
>>that has been reported where the Dali Lama prostrated himself
>>at the Shrines at the Baha'i World Center, but apparently it
>>never got through to G-ETHIC. What was your take on the report?
>>
>
>Possible that happened, but damdifino if it did. It is probably not
unlike
>when the Pope used to get off of airplanes and kissed the runway. If
you can
>get an actual accounting, it would be interesting.
>
>Bruce
>
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/24/96
Time: 22:33:01
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A. Einstein
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 11:45:20 +0000 (GMT)
From: Robert Parry
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: message-destroying e mail gremlin
i`ve been invaded and am having all my messages expunged on a save command.
would cheshmak (female), arsalan (alaska), dan orey, mark foster re:
boddhisattva, nima with new address please get in touch. sorry!!!
the frustrated
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 96 20:30:46 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg"
To: talisman@indiana.edu, friberg@will.brl.ntt.jp
Cc: jrcole@umich.edu
Subject: In defense of farmer intellectuals
Dear Juan:
You seemed more than a little confused by my posting.
You liken it to a:
> "jumble together a number of incompatible themes. . . .
> intellectual-bashing . . . in the tradition of the American Right
> . . . too much of the status quo . . . an argument associated with
> the anarchist Left, as in Chomsky.
Wow! If I can confuse you so easily, I must be really on to
something.
I apparently engage in some other no-nos:
> . . . lumping together medieval Confucian bureaucrats with
> Leninist cadres in an ahistorical manner.
Yes, yes! Ahistorical manners are very bad! I certainly agree!
.............................................................
Dear Friends:
If you want to read the rest of this go ahead. It is funny in
places, I develop some ideas, but mainly I try to respond to
what I see as unfair attacks and out-of-the blue presumptions
directed at me, trying to figure out where I have sinned.
If you don't want to read it, I don't blame you. So, let me
present my conclusions:
Apparently, I have deeply sinned because I can't figure out if
I want to to be Chomsky or Bloom, neither of which, I take it,
is Juan's intellectual hero. But clearly, I am guilty as hell.
Yours, Stephen R. Friberg
P.S. I may begin to read Kafka.
.................................................................
Anyway, back to the chase. You say:
> The bald assertion that all intellectuals are always in the
> corner of the power elite is put forward with no discussion,
> qualification, or evidence.
The "bald" part of the assertion seems to be mainly in your
response, rather than what I wrote, which was "throughout the
ages, the intelligentsia has primarily been a creature of the elite."
Now, I must confess, I become confused. According to you:
> There is an assumption that only by completely rejecting the norms of
> liberal democracies could intellectuals be virtuous--but surely the
> Communist debacle should have put paid to such jejune notions?
Hello! Are you there? There may be such an assumption floating around
in the universe somewhere, and you may have latched on to it while
star-gazing, but I assure you that no such assumption ever made it
into my e-mail message, or even ever entered my mind. I notice
that you have been accusing all kinds of folks of making such
assumptions. Apparently, its like your shadow, lurking everywhere
you go. But it is not, never has been, and never will be part of
my mental vocabulary. Its too silly, for one thing.
> The underlying assumption of the goodness of oppositional stances and
> radicalism toward the status quo is not correlated with Baha'i teachings
> and current policies, which seem rather designed to ensure that
> intellectuals *are* obedient to the state, uninvolved in politics or
> public struggles for justice, quiescent, and censored.
Again, I'm a bit confused by what you are trying to say here. Of course,
the Baha'i teachings involve a radical rejection of the status quo, and
at that same time they seem to imply a radical rejection of, if you
will not castigate me for you using the term, of the traditional
revolutionary attempts to grab authority. Like John Lennon, the Writings
seem to give the impression that the usual revolutions, like the communist
ones, really don't change things very much, and often make things worse.
(Intellectuals increasingly seem to believe that in the Soviet Union
and in China that all the revolutions did was to extend the power of
authoritarian regimes for another 50 - 80 years or so.) In others words,
the Baha'i Writings, at least as I understand them, claim primacy for a
spiritual transformation of the world.
I welcome debate on this, you may have a different take on the Writings
about this subject than I do. About *obedience* to the state and
uninvolvement in politics, we seem to have rather straightforward
policies. But I don't see why you think that we should be quiescent
or engage in censorship.
> First of all, I maintain that the group I called "intellectuals" are
> a *modern* phenomenon; I do not believe it is useful to talk about
> "intellectuals" all through history. The tiny sliver of urban
> literati existing before the 18th-century was primarily bureaucrats,
> merchants and clergymen; none of these would necessarily qualify as
> intellectuals under my second definition, and most, as you say,
> were intertwined with the Establishment.
Maybe I part ways with you here. I believe that you simply can
not understand the current thinking of cultures, peoples, and
"intellectuals" without understanding their histories and the
interacting threads therein.
For example, it is commonplace for foreigners to describe the
Japanese as somehow being "inscrutable" or some other
such things. But, by studying Japanese history, most notably the
history of Tokugawa Japan and ideological developments (Suzuki,
Bellah, Ooms, Kitagawa, etc.) I find that things are much clearer,
I can understand why things are the way they are in a much better
way.
More specifically, I find counterparts for the European concepts
of the Left and the Right, and I can see how they develop from
single threads into various competing parties, intellectual and
otherwise, compete for sponsorship of the rulers that be, and
later, for control of the government.
So it is with modern intellectual developments. You characterized
them in terms of the left and the right. But, unless you know
a least a little bit about the history of the left and the right,
and are perhaps sympathetic to why they developed the way they did
(lest I provoke controversy, that doesn't mean that you must
endorse the political agenda of any particular modern left or
right wing group, but rather that you understand how and why
the developments occured), that characterization is a meaningless
label of the type that politicians sling around in mud fights.
Very clearly, at least to me, the modern intellectual, no matter
what definition you want to use for them, is a product of a
historical process. I don't think you can understand the social
support for various intellectual positions without understanding the
societies in which they arose: to me, that understanding requires
a historical perspective.
> I recommend that you read Gramsci on this issue. Intellectuals in the
> occupational sense can go either way, but those who engage in the culture
> of critical discourse can become oppositional to bourgeois or commisar
> hegemony, as we have seen in our own lifetimes.
Please tell me more about him.
Again, I become confused. You say:
> Anyway, your Chomskyan critique of intellectuals as pillars of the
> Establishment seems a neo-Marxist critique. Could you remind me what is
> wrong from a Baha'i point of view with intellectuals serving their
> government and society? Robert Reich did not become evil just by
> becoming labor secretary (or earlier, accepting a position at Harvard);
> and had the voters not taken such a strong turn Right in the
> congressional elections of 1994, some of his ideas, such as raising the
> minimum wage or expanding worker training might well be law now and would
> have benefitted workers much more than a street-corner manifesto.
Before you go jumping on bandwagons of your own making, or fencing
with shadows, or whatever it is that you are doing, let me remind you
of what I said. Apparently there were some misapprehended
subtleties . . . ?
I said that, "I think that most intellectuals, regardless of how
they regard themselves, are in support of some status quo. Where,
in fact, do they get their ideas if it is not from some status
quo somewhere?"
Perhaps the "status quo" in the these sentences *is* confusing. What
I mean by it is that usually people get their ideas from some book
that they have read, some school of thought which has influenced
them, and so on. Very few people develop system's of thought all
by themselves. I identify the thinking of a school of thought
as a "status quo" in the thinking of such a group.
I am sorry that I haven't yet read Chomsky or anyone from his
school. Does he have anything interesting to say?
I said
>> I found Charles Cooper's remarks concerning whether or not the
>> government funded broadcasting services were liberal or not to
>> be entirely apropo. Paraphrasing him a bit wildly, he said that they
>> were not liberal, rather they represented the thinking of the
>> American elite.
You replied:
> This assumes that there is one, single, undifferentiated "American
> elite," with a single viewpoint, which is found on Public Broadcasting.
> If you do not think there is a difference between William F. Buckley and
> Barney Frank, much less between Gingrich and Chomsky, then you have a
> very odd idea of homogeneity.
You seem to believe that "thinking" is a word that is singular, whereas
I believe it to be plural. Writing an e-mail to you is quite different
than doing physics, yet both involve thinking. But clearly, the thinking
is a different kind. Yet both are done by me. Similarly, people in a
homogeneous (you can argue with me about this if you wish) society like
the United States may espouse different viewpoints, but they often stem
from shared common beliefs, not to mention common experiences.
Perhaps I have been reading to much mystical theory, or lived in Japan
too long, but I am becoming convinced that polarities in thought tend
to be caused by each other (of course, Hegel thought this way, too).
If you say something radical, I reply with something the opposite, but
radical too. So, I see the William F. Buckley's of the world as creating
the Barney Franks. (But, I don't see this necessarily as generally
true.) But, these polarities stem from (usually) competition in a
cordoned off environment: a culture. And accordingly, that
competition or polarity is a product of that culture and its norms.
When you study different cultures, you see this very clearly.
If you were to define an enemy list, and start to attack your enemies,
they, regardless of what they thought of you before, would start
to defend themselves and attack you. Pretty soon, they would think of
you as their enemy. Many polarities of thought, or at least of
politics, seem to be related to each other in this way.
> That said, I decry as much as anyone the
> media withdrawal from covering labor and the poor; there is no longer a
> labor reporter at the New York Times. But compare coverage of the poor
> on PBS and commercial television, and you will find a significant difference.
> *Commercial* television, incidentally, has standing orders to avoid
> portrarying the struggles of workers and the poor, which is an open
> secret in Hollywood and is coming out now in some memoirs. What drives
> conservatives crazy about Public Television is that it has not been given
> the same orders to the same extent.
I agree with you whole-heartedly. Watching from Japan, I'm aghast at
many of the things that are going on in the US. It strikes me as a
kind of mass lemming-drive. I don't see real access to information,
although internet is changing that.
Anyway, Juan, answering all these things is a bit wearying, and I still
haven't gotten to the interesting part where you accuse me of slander,
polemic, and general all-around muddled thinking. Can I put off that
part to a later day?
Yours sincerely,
Stephen R. Friberg
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 96 23:43:50 PST
Subject: FW: Re: encomium
To: talisman@indiana.edu, 748-9178@mcimail.com
On Wed, 24 Jan 1996 15:57:04 -0800 SFotos@eworld.com wrote:
>
>Burl and John:
>
>My favorite Juan's-word-of-the-week is "encomium."
>
>Our man must be something fierce with the Times' crossword puzzle!!
>
>
>
>Sandy
encomium means formal or high flown words of praise. Not a bad word
to have at hand when discussing Bahai Writings.
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/24/96
Time: 23:43:50
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 96 06:51:37 PST
Subject: RE: Re sex and values
To: belove@sover.net, talisman@indiana.edu,
Robert Johnston
On Thu, 25 Jan 1996 18:07:15 +1300 (NZDT) Robert Johnston wrote:
>Dear Philip,
> For the past fortnight of so I have been skirting the rim
of the
>volcano and have decided that it is OK to avoid incineration, but --
just
>for the hell of it -- I'm going to respond, briefly, to your
posting.
No flame or volcano here. I need to think about your answer. It's a
big claim.
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/25/96
Time: 06:51:37
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 96 17:56:27+030
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: Books: favour
Dear Sadra:
Tongue in cheek, I offer:
Winnie the Pooh
The Tao of Pooh
Lamont the Lonely Monster
The Velveteen Rabbit
Leaves of Grass
Rama II
Dune (series)
The Source
Graveyard for Dreamers
Four on an Island
I know this doesn't measure up in intellectual impressiveness with some of
these other weighty tomes, but you did ask...
Love,
Bev.
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 08:50:56 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Books: A big Favor
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Arsalan Sadighi"
Cc: "Talisman"
10 favorite books or there abouts
This list does not reflect an order of preference!
To a God Unknown--Steinbeck
Kitab-i-Iqan--Baha'u'llah
Complete works of Plato
The Importance Of Living--Lin Yutang
The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test--Tom Wolf
The Tolkien Trilogy--JRR Tolkien
The Works Of Carlos Castaneda
The History of Philosophy--Bertrand Russell
The Glass Bead Game--Herman Hesse
War and Peace--Leo Tolstoy
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Subject: Re: Re sex and values
To: belove@sover.net
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 10:56:09 -0500 (EST)
From: "Donald Zhang Osborn"
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Philip, Allah'u'Abha! I too was surprised at your appraisal of Jackson
Armstrong's posting of the way different cultures treat sex (that it was
"the strongest and most complete argument against the Bahai position on
homosexuality..." and "a very solid attack on the basic claim that Bahai
represents a new unifying religion.") Since my reaction also was much
closer to Doug's ("Thank God there is the Baha'i Faith to bring a firm
moral standard and understanding to the world.") than to yours, I hope
you and Doug will permit me to join the discussion.
> We read the same post. My answer seemed incredible to Doug. I saw in
> the Armstrong posting a description of all the different ways
> cultures have seen fit to set up moral rules to regulate and
> structure sexuality. The clear message to me was that, when you take
> a broad view, you find that there are many different and perhaps
> incompatible moral and right ways to behave sexually.
It is true that different cultures have different morals in this area.
But what happens when they come into contact, as is happening and will
continue to happen increasingly?
When people who speak different languages meet, they try to find a common
language. When several people speaking different languages come together
they may not have a single common language, so some people may have to
translate--people switch back and forth between languages and thoughts are
communicated (a cumbersome but workable situation). Ultimately a common
lingua franca facilitates interaction and reduces uncertainty in such
communication.
When different behavioral customs come into contact, I think that the
situation is more complex. What are the common codes of conduct that can
apply to members of two different cultures coming into contact? Should one
or the other set of customs be adopted or should they be blended (? and
how?). When several cultures come together, the situation would seem
unmanageable--and there is nothing analagous to a lingua franca to be found
in the area of customs ... unless one considers world religions... (though
I wouldn't carry the language metaphor too far).
> So I asked myself this question:, If the Bahai way to regulate is
> sexuality is seen as The One and Only Right Way, then does that mean
> whole cultures are morally wrong? And if that is indeed the
> conclusion, then does that mean that for Bahai to be the unifying
> world religion, all the cultures of the world will have to accept the
> Bahai rules for sexual conduct? And how is this different from the
> kind of Christianity that has changed so many Native Cultures? What
> is the nature of this Unity we are bringing?
It is true that stronger societies have often imposed their systems on
weaker ones, and that they have often done so in the name of religion.
Yet it is also true that religions (esp. in their earlier stages) have
united peoples with diverse beliefs and customs, giving them a common
spiritual frame of reference and sets of guidelines (including some
laws) for social interaction. I don't see this so much as saying that
other (preceding) laws and customs are "morally wrong" as saying that
the time for some/many of those social customs is past/passing.
In the contemporary context, I would argue that the coming together of
world cultures means that some behavioral codes (e.g. in the area of
sexuality) will become unsustainable, regardless. Can very divergent
behavioral codes coexist for long in ever closer contact (note that I am
referring to rules for social behavior, not aesthetics, traditional
customs, etc.)? The question then becomes what will help the diverse &
unifying cultures of the world to achieve social peace, material progress,
and spiritual growth? Laws regarding "sexuality," that powerful impulse
that has become such a preoccupation in the commercialized West, are
only a small (but integral) part of the larger problem. Baha'i teachings
as a whole provide a framework for peoples of the world to come together
on a more equal footing than previously possible to build an "ever
advancing" world civilization.
> And I confess that I have a fear here. My fear is that we become no
> different than than kind of Imperialistic Christianity that did so
> much violence to the Native Cultures of the world whenever it had the
> opportunity through political and military power?
>
> So that was how I read out the implications.
>
> Doug's response, that we should be thankful that the Bahai faith
> brings a "firm moral standard," suggests to me that my concerns might
> not be wrong. (Which is not to say that my concerns are right.) His
> response suggests that he believes that the presence of a firm moral
> standard is needed to let us know that many of these native people,
> even though they think they are acting morally, really aren't.
As old certainties evaporate in the face of rapid global change, there
are no firm moral standards. In effect, many cultures (even long
dominant ones) seem to have lost their bearings, as if their moral
compasses no longer find their "north" (whatever that used to be).
I see the Baha'i teachings as providing a common "north" for diverse
cultures as the world becomes more united, definitely not as a way to
put down cultures. The Baha'i faith is most certainly not being
propogated by a dominant culture as a tool of subjugation; it rather
(in my opinion) is the surest means by which the "last" can finally
become "first." And if a catalogue of different sexual practices
disappears (note I did not say "is suppressed") in the process of its
spread, is anyone really worse off?
Don Osborn osborndo@pilot.msu.edu
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 10:52:22 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: In defense of farmer intellectuals
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Stephen Friberg" ,
"Talisman"
The Prince of Platitudes would like Stephen Fri-cook to be a guest on the
show and demonstrate some of his recipes--you know something along the
lines of "The Spiritual Gourmet".
Signed
The Prince of Platitudes
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 10:40:01 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Good bye for now
Dear Friends,
I will have to unsubscribe for a while and my email account will not be
active for more than a few days - if you want to get in touch with
me, my address is 2910 Adrienne, College Station, Texas, 77845.
I would like to thank everyone for their thought provoking ideas -
I have learned a lot in the past year and discovered that I have deep
interests in history, philosophy, language, law and many other subjects.
If I start naming folks in order to thank them, I am bound to
forget some - however, I would like to thank John and Linda, our hosts,
for allowing me run barefoot through their living room :-) [there is
a Persian saying regarding jumping in the middle of discussions
and described as "jumping in barefoot"]. BTW I never wore sandals
when I was little inside our house - much to my Persian parents'
dismay :-)
When I first signed on in February of last year, there was a
discussion regarding the normative nature of the Teachings of
Baha'u'llah - something that I had not really thought about before but
now firmly believe. I think our mission is to understand the normative
threads in this revelation - at times difficult because we are constantly
pulled by various elements of the "old world". That is why I think we
should trust the House of Justice as our compass.
I would like to say that Talisman is operating much closer to
its potential after a little over a year. No one can deny the
importance of thinking people in the Faith. And with the imminent
completion of the Centre for the Study of the Sacred Text, the
role of scholarship, I think, will be better seen by the Baha'i
World.
take care,
sAmAn
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 10:38:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: The Prince of Platitude's Show
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Burl Barer" , "Derek Cockshut" ,
"Talisman"
Hi everybody out there this is the Prince of Platitude's Show brought to
you by our friendly Sponsor "General Spirit". Acme Intelligence
Services has found a new home on another show and the old Prince just
wants to say "Great Havin yah!".
Now on the show today there will be various guests pop'in in--Mr. Rogers
wanted me to talk to all the children about "Being smart doesn't mean
your entitled to be right". I told him I was going to check with my old
friend Socrates which I did and will talk about that later in the show.
Farmer Burl the Baer said he might replace Mr. Green Jeans I sure hope he
does and Derek the Econiac wants to come on the show later and really ham
it up and talk about the Mystical Path of Derivatives.
What do you think kids?
Nooooooooooo, says the kids.
Well, lets be nice anyway, alright?
Yeeeaah says the kids.
Well, anyway the princeirino was talking to Socrates and he brought up
Mr. Roger's subject-you know about smart people--and Socrates said that
the Oracle at Delphi had proclaimed him the "wisest man in Greece".
Well, he found this a little embarrassing and he said to me, "The only
thing I know is that I don't know anything." "Whoa" I said "O wise one
guy" you're going a little fast here what are you talking about. He said
I'm talking about about "attitude". And I want you to tell all the kids
out there if they want to grow up and be wise like me and get there
picture on the philosophy Wheaties Box their gonna have to try to learn
from everyone.
Boy I'm telling you that is one great guy, no wonder they killed him.
Well that's all for the show today--sorry Derek we ran out of time.
Derek--get back--drop that banjo--the shows over for today.
Send your cards and letters kids
Musical refrain:
It's the Prince of Platitude's shoe....
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 12:09:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: hurt feelings
My posting in response to Stephen Friberg's on intellectuals appears to
have hurt his feelings. Just to say that I have long been deeply
impressed by Stephen's acuity and valuable contributions and that I am
unaware that I have ever disparaged his character as opposed to reacting
to ideas that he put forth. I think ultimately that we have very deep
and perhaps unresolvable differences in outlook and premise, but that is
surely what makes the sparks fly from which the truth emerges? Anyway,
if any of my words came across too strongly, I am happy to apologize.
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 12:01:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: status quo and utopia
In view of Jim's, Kevin's and Stephen Friberg's postings and the
discussion of what some here have called liberal Western values (but
which I would call human rights), I thought it might be useful to try to
map our collective discourse.
First, we should map out the ideological world in which we live. The
political "right" refers to systems that value unquestioned authority,
hierarchy, unequal distribution of power and wealth. The political
"left" values egalitarianism, the dispersal and distribution of wealth
and power. Thus, the purest "right" regime is Absolutism, and the purest
"left" regime is social democracy. Liberalism is centrist in having some
egalitarian features, especially in procedural law and representative
government, but retaining strong hierarchies of wealth and influence.
Fascism is in some ways a more modern absolutism and is thus on the far
right. Leninism aims at egalitarianism of wealth, but concentrates power
in only a few hands. At the end of the twentieth century, after a very
close set of horse races, Liberalism seems rather to be winning out as
the most viable form of social organization, best able to compete with
and defeat the others, though in continental Europe and India, at least,
it is tempered by at least a few principles of social democracy (though
these are under attack).
Absolutism Liberalism Leninism Fascism Social
Democracy
Divine-right, Elective, Party Party Elective
absolute representative dictatorship; dictatorship; government;
monarchy; government; comissar strongman constitution;
arbitrary law constitution; fiat; no fiat; no rights; due
by fiat civil rights; civil rights civil rights process
due process
papal religion religion Majority religion
infallibility, depoliticized, persecuted; religion depoliticized,
church privatized; official tolerated if privatized;
censorship freedom of materialism acquiescent; freedom of
no freedom of conscience enforced; no religious conscience
conscience freedom of minorities
conscience persecuted
corporate individual
identities seen as class national individu-
(guilds, natural identities identity al seen as
cities, etc.) unit primary primary situated in
class
Favors favors the favors working favors the favors working
landed rich and class; rich rich and and middle
aristocracy upper middle persecuted upper middle classes; helps
classes; classes; poor; some
some legal workers and legal protec-
protection poor tion for the
for workers persecuted bourgeoisie
When it comes to the Baha'i Faith, I think the religion is compatible
with more than one form of society, but that it developed in the
beginning as a critique of Absolutism in the Middle East and drew heavily
on Liberal principles (rule of law, parliamentary governance,
constitutionalism, human rights, due process, etc.) I think that a
number of passages in the Writings point toward social democracy as
closest to the Baha'i ideal, though there are conflicts. `Abdu'l-Baha was
concerned about maldistribution of wealth; Shoghi Effendi championed the
absoluteness of the right of private property. Ironically, some number
of Baha'is seem actually to think that the religion advocates a tempered
form of Absolutism.
Baha'is want to engage in a utopian critique of all the current systems,
and their scriptures necessarily lead them to do so. However, we have
already seen in the twentieth century that critiquing liberalism, whether
from a Leninist or fascist point of view, has proved extremely
dangerous. I think Linda is right to be very wary of any utopian
project that seems willing to jettison Liberal rights, most of which are
now enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human rights. We must go
beyond contemporary liberalism, but we must not throw the baby out with
the bath water. And I have personally seen large numbers of Baha'is who
are perfectly sanguine about doing the latter; even the Baha'i
administration as it now functions incorporates no set of rights or due
process, being mostly arbitrary fiat. I'm glad to work toward a Virtuous
Social Democracy within a Baha'i framework, but I ain't givin' up the
Bill of Rights and would fight tooth and nail to keep them.
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 96 12:03:16 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: sexuality/family life
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Just a few quick thoughts on Jackson and Phillips's postings re: sexuality,
which I have really appreciated. Like Phillip, I too have been concerned with
the Baha'i Faith just being another imperialist religion with mostly Americans
and Persians running around the planet telling others how to behave. This must
get a bit tiresome of the natives.
I don't in the slightest want to diminish the importance of Jackson's messsage
on the diversity of human sexuality and sexual norms. I just want to add
another perspective. The societies which you reported on, Jackson, as I
recall, were cases of isolated societies. Many of these are in a transitional
state. They are to various degrees having contact with the outside world and
are becoming part of the world economy. Even in very remote areas, we find men
going on to work for businesses, earning cash and leaving behind their
subsistence way of life. This is very disruptive to old family structures.
For example, we might find a society that normally practices polygyny. That
structure may have been the norm and the entire way of life of the community
centers on this. However, once men start leaving the village for the city and
working for money, nothing is the same. He can't afford to support more than
one wife. Village women also migrate to the city. Their life experiences and
expectations change. She would find no advantage to sharing a husband with
other women. They would not be doing the type of work that would have made
other women in the household useful. They can easily be exposed to movies and
T.V. that show a different way of life for women that will make husband sharing
less attractive. What tends to happen here is that men, accustomed to polygyny
but, now, not in a situation to practice it, will take girlfriends. The usual
controls of the village in regulating sexual behavior will have been disposed
of and new societal rules will not have been put in place.
As I don't need to tell you, urban life tends to promote the nuclear household.
(I know there are cases where this is not necessarily so, but in general this
is how it has worked.) In such a situation, nothing really is more
advantageous than the monogomous, totally faithful, enduring relationship of a
man and a woman. (This does not address the issue of homosexuality, I know.
That is still another matter). I was more concerned with addressing the issue
Phillip is raising.
While the world is certainly a complex place, the tendency is for more
experiences to be shared. My Iraqi friends living in the West are a very good
example of all this. They are, for the most part, straight out of Najaf and
Karbala. Their world was a very narrow one. Girls married at about age 13 and
proceded to stay at home and have children. Life in the West quickly disrupts
this pattern. I am quite close to a family where there are four sons and three
daughters. The sons all married in their twenties. The three oldest are
trained as scholars, the youngest is in medical school. The oldest daughter
was married off at age 13, the two older ones are unmarried and in college. I
was told quite frankly that this (i.e., the daughters going to college) never
would have occurred had the family remained in the M.E. There will never be
any question about polygyny or even temporary marriage in this family. It is
not that they have become assimilated into American society. Not at all. But
circumstances have forced changes - and some rethinking of things.
I suppose my point is that the Baha'i teachings on sexuality and marriage will
not seem so strange and out of place in most situations in the world today. I
agree that if we go off to the heart of New Guinea where there is little
culture contact we might run into some situations where we might think that
there is no place at all for our notions of marriage and family. But those
places I believe are rapidly becoming fewer in number.
This by no means makes me think that we can be complacent and think that our
perception of the Baha'i teachings can and should be forced down others
throats. Nor do I think that we should quit discussing how individual
variations in human sexuality can be accomodated in the Baha'i community.
Again, these are just musings on how I see the world today in connection with a
particular aspect of the Baha'i teachings.
P.S. Could someone please give Nima a good book to read. Poor thing. Linda
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: asadighi@ptialaska.net
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Books: A big Favor
Date: 25 Jan 1996 10:17:00 GMT
Arsalan -
This is a very interesting thread. Tnx for introducing it. After much
tho't, I've decided that of more importance to me have been schools or types
of books and authors.
#1 has to be Shoghi Effendi and of his works 'World Order of Baha'u'llah'.
This is the first book of his that I read, and the one that ultimately
convinced me to become a Baha'i. I still shake my head when I read him and
think 'WOW!'
The earliest author to impress me was poet William Cullen Bryant. The idea
that a high school student could write Thanatopsis blew my mind. I like all
the 19th century nature poets, but he is tops for me.
Epictetus - Discourses. The idea of not worrying about that over which you
have no control is a fundamental part of my philosophy.
Cloud of Unkowing - I had already read St. Theresa of Avila, St Catherine of
Sienna, and Thomas Merton, but the 'Cloud' is the one that really spoke to
me.
Black Elk Speaks - particularly the introduction and the postscript where he
says that the reason he is telling all this to a white man is because he has
failed to realize his vision, and that perhaps it will be realized thru'
telling Neihardt. I realized that without personal effort and commitment on
my part, that I could end up in the same position.
Frederic Brown - I love short-short fiction and Frederic Brown is the best.
The idea of telling a story in as little as 150 words is incredible. Rumour
says that he rarely went over 1000 words because he couldn't stay sober any
longer. He was a wino, and sold most of his stories for a few dollars each
to pulp magazine publishers as filler in the 40's and 50's. No one knows how
many he wrote. Collier Books found several 100 which they published, then
found out that the copyright belonged to the publishers of these magazines
and had to pull the book after about 6 months.
Heinlein's History of the Future stories - how could anyone not like Lazarus
Long.
Asimov's robotics stories - just because
More than Human - Theodore Sturgeon - introduced a lot us in the 50's to the
idea of human commuities as a gestalt.
Frank Belknap Long's Cthulhus Mythos stories - who knows?
Other things that I particularly remember for some reason -
My 10th grade world history book - In the introduction to the section after
the one on the Victorian Era, it said that tho' the beginning of the
Victorian Era can't be dated with certainty, the end could, the summer of
1892. For some reason I was impressed by that statement.
Guy Murchie's "Music of the Sphere's". I was about 10 when my mother got
this as a Book-of-the-Month Club selection. My mother raved about it at the
time, and I tried several times to read it, but it was just too hard. BTW,
Isaac Asimov once said in an interview that Guy Murchie was a far better
writer of popular science than he was. In the first Baha'i News that I
received on returning to the U.S. after declaring in Italy was one of a
series of articles on his trip to Iran and the Holy Sites there.
An article about the same time in Reader's Digest entitled 'The Black Pit of
Teheran'. I don't remember much about the article except that it described
the Siyya-Chal and how horrible it was. And I still remember the line art
that accompanied the title.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 12:36:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Jonah Winters
To: talisman
Subject: Re: Books: A big Favor
Favorite books? I won't come up with ten off the top of my head, so let
me at least mention some of the few best:
_Natural History of the Senses_ Diane Ackerman
_Labyrinths_ Jorge Luis Borges
_Lord of the Rings_ Tolkien
_Journey to Ixtlan_ Carlos Castaneda
_Fundamentals of the Middle Way_ Nagarjuna
_The Prophet_ Kahlil Gibran
_Principia Discordia_ Malaclypse the Younger
_Gleanings_
_Hidden Words_
_World Order of Baha'u'llah_
Well, I guess that that does make ten books! What are you going to do
with these lists?
-Jonah
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Jonah and Kari Winters
33 Endean Avenue / Toronto, Ontario / M4M-1W5 / (416) 461-3527
=END=
From: Rick Schaut
To: "talisman@indiana.edu" ,
"LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu"
Subject: RE: human rights
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 11:21:12 -0800
Dear Linda and Friends,
----------
From:
LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu[SMTP:LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu]
>However, I
>did read somewhere that economics is the most inhuman of
>sciences.
Probably written by a Mathematician.
>Now, regarding the issue of human rights - while democracy does not
necessarily
>guarantee that human rights will be protected, the evidence is there to
show
>that human rights will most likely be protected in a democracy.
I'm sorry, Linda, but I found the remainder of this message to be
condescending in the extreme. I don't recall seeing any member
of Talisman advocating a system which is even remotely
comparable to any of the regimes of the middle east, let alone
that of Iraq.
The issue is not a question of whether or not the full spectrum of
human rights ought to be preserved. Everyone on this listserv
would agree that they should. The issue, rather, is one of
boundaries, and where they should lie.
But even that's not the right question. We can debate the boundaries
on every human right from now 'til the advent of the Most Great
Peace, and we'll have contributed very little to the benefit of the
world. Whatever the system we're considering, it will, as a matter
of course, determine where those boundaries lie (both in the
short term and in the long term). This is as true for the Administrative
Order as it's true for democracies and dictatorships. Moreover,
we have no right to expect that any system will define these
boundaries in precisely the location where any one of us
might think they should be.
The right question is this: which system achieves the optimal
solution for deciding where those boundaries should lie?
Note that I've phrased the question in operations research
terms. The problem is really a minimax problem, i.e. how
do we maximize individual freedoms while minimizing the
harmful effects of certain exercises of those freedoms.
Now, here's the trick. We want to try to answer that question
without deciding what the optimal solution is, because, if we
do try to decide this amongst ourselves, our discussion is
going to degenerate into a debate over the boundaries, and
we'll end up criticizing a system for no reason other than the
fact that we don't agree with the precise location for certain
boundaries of conduct. We want a much more objective
answer to that question.
In order to pull this trick off, we'll have to start looking at
_how_ these systems draw the boundaries which limit the
exercise of any freedom.
On that note, having identified the central question and
stated how I think we ought to go about answering that
question, I think I'm going to duck back into my absorbing
world of software bugs and deadlines. If nothing else, this
should serve as a clarification of many of the differences
we've seen on Talisman whenever we've discussed the
operation of the Administrative Order with respect to
individual rights and freedoms. But I sincerely hope
that it sprouts a discussion which is marked by a spirit
very different from the discussions we've seen in the
past.
Warmest Regards,
Rick Schaut
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 13:56:15 -0500
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Tango Lesson's
You know I was talking to the Prince and he told me, "Gosh darn it
Juan and Steve can really Tango. When those two are on the floor
they move everyone off in wonderment just like John Travolta in
Saturday Night Fever". Clumsy Derek and Burl could use some dance
lesson's so they can quit being wallflowers.
Signed
A friend of the Prince
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 96 15:16:11 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: The Question
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Rich admonishes me: The right question is this: which system achieves the opti
mal solution for deciding where those boundaries should lie?
Gee, Rick, sorry. I thought that that was the question I was answering. And
who is condescending? Linda
=END=
From: Ray Masrour
To: "'TALISMAN'"
Subject: Re: 10 favorite books
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 96 15:10:00 PST
There could be others, but these stand out at the moment:
1. Portals to Freedom Howard C. Ives
2. kitab-e-Iqan Baha'u'llah
3. The Story of Civilization(11vols.) W. Durante
4. History of Philosophy B. Russell
5. One Year Among the Persians E.G. Browne
6. Selections from the Writings of of E.G. Browne on
Babi and Baha'i Religions Edited: M. Momen
7. The Persian Revolution E.G. Browne
8. Collection of Talks(2 vols) Dr. Davoudi
9. Faraed Abulfaza'el
10. The Source Mitchner
Riaz
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 14:26:50 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Juan R Cole
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: status quo and utopia
Great post, Juan, and I loved the graph. One question, though: don't you
think a pure Left regime (if one can even call it such) would be more
along the lines of an anarcho-syndicalism? And where would social
libertarians fit in in all of this? Thanx!
Yours,
Nima (a Lefty-Ishraqi radical social-democrat) :-)
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 96 13:39 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: James Nelson Prayer Request
Prayers are requested for NSA member James Nelson. I have been
requested to pass this on to as many folks as possible as his health
situation is severe.
Burl
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
Unlimited!
********************************************************
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 96 13:28 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Megha Shyam
Subject: Re: Books
Hi talisman folks!
My favorite books! Many come to mind, but let me list the ones I have
had the need to use outside my work (where I usually end up reading
5-6 hours a day) (not in any order)
The King of Glory
Secret of Divine Civilization
Tablets of Baha'u'llah
Eastern Philosophy and Western Thought by S. Radhakrishnan
Persian and the Persian Question by Curzon
A year amongst the Persians
Thriving in Chaos
How to Solve it - George Polya (a book on mathematics & Philosophy)
Kitab-i-Aqdas
The current volume on early American Baha'i History by Stockman
Covenant by Taherzadeh
Some of the books had to be reread in view of some issue facing the LSA
of Corvallis so that I can better understand my partcipation as a member
of the LSA oif Corvallis.
Megha Shyam
Corvallis OR
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 16:43:56 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: osborndo@pilot.msu.edu (Donald Zhang Osborn)
Subject: Re: Words & Values
Gordon, Allah'u'Abha! I just wanted to express my appreciation of your
posting on the meaning & power of words. Although you say you intended it
as "playful," and express concern that some of it might sound "nit-picky,"
your message calls our attention to what often seems (esp. on Talisman,
sometimes, but with less frequency) to be an overlooked part of the Baha'i
teachings: That the choice of words is very important, as is the timing of
their delivery, and that words can even have a more enduring effect than
actions. It is also worth noting here that Baha'u'llah counsels the wise to
"speak primarily with words as mild as milk" (Lawh-i-Maqsud) (so are those
of us who use strong words too often really showing humbleness by not
presuming to act as if we were wise?...).
Don Osborn osborndo@pilot.msu.edu
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 16:27:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Jackson Armstrong-Ingram
To: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: sexuality/family life
Just a quick response to Linda's quick response!
Among the societies
I discussed were the middle east, mediaeval europe, 19th century
america, and china. I don't think these count as isolated societies.
Actually neither do most new guinea peoples. However isolated from the
west they have been, most of these people have had long term contact with
various local groups having cultures different from their own.
I do not think that urbanization can be equated with a drive toward
monogamy or nuclear households. Polygyny is of course restricted to men
with greater access to economic resources in those societies that favor
it. Different types of wealth and social capital do not change that.
Indeed, polygyny has been adapted to urbanization in various parts of
Africa where relatively wealthy men (which can equal middle class by our
standards, e.g. university professors) may have a suitably skilled urban
wife to aid their career (often the only wife western friends know about)
and a rural wife (wives) suitably skilled to manage their familky land
holdings. As a purely economic unit, if it is well managed a polygonous
family has a definite advantage in the accumulation of wealth and often
politically as well.
On urban living historically, there seems to have been no urban deterrent
to polygyny in urban china or the middle east; the cliche harem is an
urban institution. And the marriage system that is probably furthest
from monogamy, Nayar group marriage, was an urban based system which
aided the concentration of considerable economic resources in the hands
of Nayar families. Actually the Oneida family was very sucessful
economically too (Oneida flatware).
I would agree that the scale of urbanization is often different now and
that one has to take into account the influence of the media. For
example the hijra ( a third gender in india) are assimilating to the
traditional definition of their 'nature' and role western ideas about
transsexualism.
To others who have commented, I ahve read the postings and will probably
make further comments, but I have to go teach tonight and that will get
in the way.
I don't know why my postings are coming up without my name in the
listing; it is not intentional and I've asked John W if I can get it to
come up right. Actually I think I may have sent the posting to Linda;
please tell John.
Jackson (NEVER EVER JACK PLEASE!!!!!!)
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 11:55:53 -0900
To: Saman Ahmadi , talisman@indiana.edu
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: Re: Good bye for now
No, no,no, no, no! You can't do this to us. You are too valuable to leave.
You can't do this. You will go to hell for doing to us.
How can we change you mind. Would bribes work? Did the farmer folks and
economists and the intellectual wannabees scare you away? Not to worry. My
cousin Winnie will take care of the problem.
Please reconsider.
Arsalan
>
>Dear Friends,
>
>I will have to unsubscribe for a while and my email account will not be
>active for more than a few days - if you want to get in touch with
>me, my address is 2910 Adrienne, College Station, Texas, 77845.
>
>I would like to thank everyone for their thought provoking ideas -
>I have learned a lot in the past year and discovered that I have deep
>interests in history, philosophy, language, law and many other subjects.
>
>If I start naming folks in order to thank them, I am bound to
>forget some - however, I would like to thank John and Linda, our hosts,
>for allowing me run barefoot through their living room :-) [there is
>a Persian saying regarding jumping in the middle of discussions
>and described as "jumping in barefoot"]. BTW I never wore sandals
>when I was little inside our house - much to my Persian parents'
>dismay :-)
>
>When I first signed on in February of last year, there was a
>discussion regarding the normative nature of the Teachings of
>Baha'u'llah - something that I had not really thought about before but
>now firmly believe. I think our mission is to understand the normative
>threads in this revelation - at times difficult because we are constantly
>pulled by various elements of the "old world". That is why I think we
>should trust the House of Justice as our compass.
>
>I would like to say that Talisman is operating much closer to
>its potential after a little over a year. No one can deny the
>importance of thinking people in the Faith. And with the imminent
>completion of the Centre for the Study of the Sacred Text, the
>role of scholarship, I think, will be better seen by the Baha'i
>World.
>
>take care,
>sAmAn
>
>
>
Arsalan J. Sadighi
"Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
that is clearly none of your business!" Battista
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 14:34:21 PST8PDT
Subject: Buddhism/Islam: history of persecutions or violent conflict?
Hi,
I have a fuzzy recollection of something about Himalayan
history from readings years ago (possibly "Snow Leopard"
and other books). Does anyone know anything about the
historical persecutions of Buddhists by Moslems (or other
Buddhist/Moslem conflict) in India, Nepal or other Asian
areas? Was Sunni different from Shiah Islam in this
respect?
Also, why didn't Buddhism historically extend further
westward into the pre-Islamic middle east during it's
spread?
Is there signifigant evidence of tolerance of Buddhism
in in pre-modern Islam, and if so, what are typical
cross-cultural influences (I think someone mentioned
philosophical influences a while ago, but I don't
recall the specifics)? Were any influences from the
east more evident in the "learned" classes and/or
traders in Islamic society?
Thanks,
EP
(PierceED@csus.ed)
=END=
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 11:22:53 +1300 (NZDT)
To: Juan R Cole , Talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: status quo and utopia
At 12:01 25/1/96, Juan R Cole wrote:
I think Juan, with his macrocosmic "I'm [an] OK [liberal]: you're [a] not
OK [conservative Baha'ist]" stance, has got it fundamentally wrong. The
root of this wrongness is contained in the following, in which he wrote:
>When it comes to the Baha'i Faith, I think the religion is compatible
>with more than one form of society, but that it developed in the
>beginning as a critique of Absolutism in the Middle East and drew heavily
>on Liberal principles (rule of law, parliamentary governance,
>constitutionalism, human rights, due process, etc.)
The error spins from the words "drew heavily". The assumptions of "drew
heavily" are fundamentally untennable, because they assume that the Faith
is epistemologically humanistic. I quote from the SDC passage of
yesterday:
"Or can one, God forbid, imagine that the Omnipotent Lord was moved to
comply with the opinions of the heathen? The divine wisdom takes many
forms. Would it have been impossible for Muhammad to reveal a Law which
bore no resemblance whatever to any practice current in the Days of
Ignorance?"
Utterly silenced and completely unacknowledged within Juan's ethnocentic
stance is the Guardian's view that the US was the most politically corrupt
nation in the world...
I realise that I have tended to over-state here, but we on the Japan --
Australasia spiritual axis gotta look out for one another.. ;-}
Robert.
=END=
From: Rick Schaut
To: "talisman@indiana.edu" ,
"LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu"
Subject: RE: The Question
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 14:23:25 -0800
Dear Linda and Friends,
----------
From:
LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu[SMTP:LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu]
>Rich admonishes me: The right question is this: which system achieves the
opti
>mal solution for deciding where those boundaries should lie?
>Gee, Rick, sorry. I thought that that was the question I was answering.
By comparing and contrasting democracies against some of
the most fascist regimes extant on the planet?! I think we can
all guess that the democracies will do a better job, and we can
all guess that it probably has something to do with the extent
to which speech is allowed.
On the other hand, I have more than a few acquaintances who
think that rights like the one secured by the 2nd Amendment to
the US Constitution (the right to keep and bear arms) have even
greater effect. Where do these rights fit into the Baha'i
concept of society?
The point was to try to get us to answer the question without
having to first decide which freedoms must exist. Our reasoning
gets a little less circular, and our efforts don't look quite so self
serving, if we can answer the question without having to advocate
certain rights first.
>And who is condescending?
I don't recall saying that any _person_ was condescending. That,
of course, would be an ad hominem attack, and is prohibited by
the list rules.
I thought we'd reached the point where we could be frank about
the things someone says and know that no one intends to impute
anything to the authors of those words. Am I mistaken?
Warmest Regards,
Rick Schaut
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 16:16:05 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Saman Ahmadi
Cc: talisman
Subject: Re: Good bye for now
Saman-i aziz--
Raftee, ay bi-ma'refat :-) No doubt you'll be sorely missed. Good luck to
you wherever you finally end up and definitely keep in touch.
Your friend,
Nima
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 16:12:59 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Burl Barer
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: James Nelson Prayer Request
On Thu, 25 Jan 1996, Burl Barer wrote:
> Prayers are requested for NSA member James Nelson. I have been
> requested to pass this on to as many folks as possible as his health
> situation is severe.
I don't think we are talking about Jim on his deathbed. Dorothy and Jim
are scheduled to attend the women's conference in Flagstaff this weekend;
as of a few hours ago Dorothy was planning to attend; as of two days ago
Jim was still scheduled, as well.
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 17:34:42 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Good bye for now
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Arsalan Sadighi" ,
"Saman Ahmadi" ,
"Talisman"
Dear Saman,
I must join my brother Arsalan in his entreaty and also ask you to stay
if it is possible. If not I imagine I will see you some time as you
don't live very far from me and I would like to extend a heart felt
invitation to you to stay at my home any time you might like and visit
the friends here.
Your Baha'i Brother
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
From: Rick Schaut
To: ""
Subject: Rights, Freedoms and Processes
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 15:32:26 -0800
Dear Talizens,
Seeing Juan's latest missive about holding dear to our
Bill of Rights and the extent to which I have failed to
state my position in my responses to Linda, I fear
that a more serious point is in danger of being lost.
In comparing the various systems, one can certainly
note a correlation between the kinds of systems and
the number of freedoms secured within those systems.
However, we really need to exercise caution before
we start drawing causal links from the existence of
some freedoms (e.g. free speech or the right to keep
and bear arms) and the existence of other freedoms.
For example, it has been suggested that democracies
maintain a higher level of freedom because they
preserve broad rights to freedom of speech. The causal
link, however, is not quite as clear as one might think.
If we consider the _processes_ by which these systems
decide which rights are important, we get a very different
picture. Democracies decide what rights are important
by putting the issue to a popular vote (in some instances
requiring a super majority of opinion before a particular
right is secured). The reason we have any particular
freedom in the United States has less to do with free
speech per se than it has to do with the fact that the
people wanted this particular freedom included in the
set of protected freedoms. The ultimate causal factor,
here, is public opinion (with due note to the effects, both
"positive" and "negative", free speech can have on
public opinion).
Contrast this with the Administrative Order of the Faith
which employs a process involving the application of
Divinely revealed principle by elected institutions using
the Divinely ordained method of consultation. In broad
terms, the freedoms are embodied in the principles
themselves. The specific boundaries, however, get
decided by institutions through this process of applying
these principles.
To put these ideas in more concrete terms, consider
the act of criticizing a community leader. In most
democracies, particularly in the US, you can say
just about anything you want about a civic leader or
member of government. In fact, you can say things
which would be considered slander (or libel) if you
said them about a private individual.
In a Baha'i society, however, such statements would
be considered backbiting and can result in sanctions.
Whether or not sanctions will be applied in any given
circumstance will depend upon the individual's attitude
toward his own behavior and the application of a number
of principles not the least of which is the spiritual health
and well-being of the individual.
Having explained this a little more, let me rephrase
the question that I left at the end of my first response
to Linda's message: which process, popular vote or
Baha'i institutional consultation, is more likely to
produce an optimal solution to the problem of maximizing
freedom while minimizing the extent to which these
freedoms can be abused?
I think everyone knows where my sentiments lie, but
I'm interested in other people's thoughts.
Warmest Regards,
-Rick
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 15:47:14 -0800
From: derekmc@IX.NETCOM.COM (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: RE , James Nelson"s Health,
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismanians
As there seems to be a little problem with information here are the
actual facts.
I spoke to Jim around 2.00 o'clock this afternoon. He has prostrate
cancer that has gone beyond the prostrate . Yesterday he went for
another battery of tests including one to try and determine the extent
of the spread of the cancer. He will know on Monday the results of all
the tests. It is a serious situation how serious is not known at the
moment . I know you will all say prayers however you can send an E'Mail
to . you might all spare a caring thought not
only for Dorothy and their chlidren but also Janice, Steve Scholl's
wife who is Jim's niece and loves him dearly.
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
From: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 96 20:19:43 -0600 (CST)
Subject: BOOKS: A BIG FAVOR
To: talisman@indiana.edu
My 10 favorite and most influential books:
1. Dynamics of Faith, Paul Tillich
2. Kitab-i-Iqan, Baha'u'llah
3. Apology and The Republic, Plato
4. Tao te Ching, Lao Tsu
5. The World's Religions, Huston Smith
6. Towards a World Theology, Wilfred Cantwell Smith
7. Theology in a New Key, Robert M. Brown
8. An Interpretation of Religion, John Hick
9. The Masks of God, Joseph Campbell
10. Chinese Thought, Herrlee Creel
11. Creative Evolution, Henri Bergson
Theses are the books that have most influenced my thought over the last
twelve years.
Warmest greetings, Dann May, Philosophy, OK City Univ.
---
* WR 1.32 # 669 * Judge a man by his questions rather than his answers. Vol
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 16:45:09 -0800
To: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi), talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re: Books: A big Favor
Top Ten Books Not in order...
*Roots* Alex Haley
*Why Women Crave Chocolate* Diane Waterhouse
*Kitab-i-iqan*
*God Passes By* Shoghi Effendi
*Change of Heart* A sister to one of the women on a Bahai e-mail forum
*Bahai Scriptures* (?) --yes there is such a book... its really old!
*Certified Novell Engineer Study Guide* (?) New Rider Press
*To Move the World* Marzieh Gail
*I Shall Come Again* ? Motlagh
*Poetry by Langston Hughes/ Life of Langston Hughes* (?)
*Man Overboard* Burl Barer Just kidding, this would be the 11th
one, if you had wanted 11 books but I had to mention it.
Warmly, Margreet
At 09:52 AM 1/24/96 -0900, Arsalan J. Sadighi wrote:
>Friends,
>
>I would like to ask you a very big favor. Would it be possible for you to
>post the top 10 books you have loved the most? It can be on any subject,
>fiction or non-fiction, Baha'i, Baha'inot, etc.
>
>Arsalan J. Sadighi
>
>
> "Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
> that is clearly none of your business!" Battista
>
>
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 19:58:24 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: human rights
Dear Rick and all ,
Well gosh ! I dont think you have defined the question at all .
The *system * sets the boundaries ? That is a reified solution if I
ever heard one . I am sorry but it sounds like a recipe for disaster to me .
Who makes up this *sysyem * if not human beings and where do they
derive their understanding of the "boundaries " let alone the questions to
answer . i will have to cast my lot with Habermas and Bahau llah on the
impotrance of "communicative rationality " or "consutation" . The question
you describe is one which became current in this country starting in the 20's
and was truly ascendent in the 50's on .
It is one of the significant issues in "modernity" and it is not the
least bit settled by invoking the system . You may think this is a *Bahai *
position . It is the quintessential *technocratic * solution . Find me the
texts which support such a view ?
warm regards ,
Terry
=END=
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 14:16:18 +1300 (NZDT)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: SDC 17:"Every one ...both studies and teaches the science of logic"
Talismans,
Philip,
Your analysis (SDC 16) seems generally OK.
You write that the Mohammad-in-the-trenches image simply illustrates the
need for both praticality and spirituality. However I feel that it about
the need to find and use knowledge without prejudice.
Re. the relationship of the passage to Mr Armstrong Ingram's pluralistic
anthropology: the passage asserts the essential transcendental independence
of religion from the ways of the people, and its primacy. Mr Armstrong
Ingram's standpoint seems to overlook this.
We continue, then... I am delighted at the reference to the Greeks and to
logic.
Robert.
Some, who are not sufficiently informed as to the meaning of the
divine Texts and the contents of traditional and written history, will
aver that these customs of the Days of Ignorance were laws which had come
down from His Holiness Abraham and had been retained by the idolaters. In
this connection they will cite the Qur'anic verse: "Follow the religion
of Abraham, the sound in faith." [ Qur'an 16:124.] Nevertheless it is a
fact attested by the writings of all the Islamic schools that the months
of truce, the lunar calendar, and the cutting off of the right hand as
punishment for theft, formed no part of Abraham's Law. In any case, the
Pentateuch is extant and available today, and contains the laws of
Abraham. Let them refer to it. They will +P30 then, of course, insist
that the Torah has been tampered with, and in proof will quote the
Qur'anic verse: "They pervert the text of the Word of God."*** It is,
however, known where such distortion has occurred, and is a matter of
record in critical texts and commentaries.**** Were We to develop the
subject beyond this brief reference, We would have to abandon Our present
purpose.
According to some accounts, mankind has been directed to borrow
various good qualities and ways from wild animals, and to learn a lesson
from these. Since it is permissible to imitate virtues of dumb animals,
it is certainly far more so to borrow material sciences and techniques
from foreign peoples, who at least belong to the human race and are
distinguished by judgment and the power of speech. And if it be contended
that such praiseworthy qualities are inborn in animals, by what proof can
they claim that these essential principles of civilization, this knowledge
and these sciences current among other peoples, are not inborn? Is there
any Creator save God? Say: Praised be God!
The most learned and accomplished divines, the most distinguished
scholars, have diligently studied those branches of knowledge the root and
origin of which were the Greek philosophers such as Aristotle and the
rest, and have regarded the acquisition from the Greek texts of sciences
such as medicine, and **** [Cf. Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 86.]
+P31 branches of mathematics including algebra+F19 and arithmetic, as
a most valuable achievement. Every one of the eminent divines both
studies and teaches the science of logic, although they consider its
founder to have been a Sabean. Most of them have insisted that if a
scholar has thoroughly mastered a variety of sciences but is not well
grounded in logic, his opinions, deductions and conclusions cannot safely
be relied upon.
***Qur'an 4:45; 5:16.
****"If by the word algebra we mean that branch of mathematics by which we
learn how to solve the equation x2+5x=14, written in this way, the science
begins in the 17th century. If we allow the equation to be written with
other and less convenient symbols, it may be considered as beginning at
least as early as the 3rd century. If we permit it to be stated in words
and solved, for simple cases of positive roots, by the aid of geometric
figures, the science was known to Euclid and others of the Alexandrian
school as early as 300 B.C. If we permit of more or less scientific
guessing in achieving a solution, algebra may be said to have been known
nearly 2000 years B.C., and it had probably attracted the attention of the
intellectual class much earlier... The name `algebra' is quite
fortuitous. When Mohammed ibn Musa al-Khowarizmi ... wrote in Baghdad
(c. 825) he gave to one of his works the name Al-jebr w'al-muqabalah. The
title is sometimes translated as `restoration and equation,' but the
meaning was not clear even to the later Arab writers." Encyclopedia
Britannica, 1952, s.v. Algebra.
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 16:15:37 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Burl Barer
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: James Nelson Prayer Request
I did not mean to imply that prayers aren't requested. they are.
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 15:59:26 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Ahang Rabbani
Cc: Talisman
Subject: Re: M.A. Furughi
What was his relationship to the Babi Furughi referred to often in Mr.
Furutan's book of stories about Baha'u'llah; and also there was a small
paperback -- Fire on the Mountaintop? which had lots of stories about
the teaching of the Babi's early on in Baha'u'llah's Dispensation, and
how Furughi punched a Baha'i teacher in the nose when he came to
Furughi's house and said that Him Whom God Will Make Manifest had appeared.
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 96 10:41:08 PST
Subject: RE: SDC 16: "It was, furthermore, their wont to intercalate one month
in every three-year perio
To: talisman@indiana.edu,
Robert Johnston
Dear Robert. I don't read this passage the same way you do.
I think that the thrust of this passage is, first, that we should not be
closed to ideas just because they come to us from outside our Faith
Community. And second, just because the ideas within our Faith Community are
strongly similar to ideas outside it, we can't conclude that our Faith
community's are derived from general practice.
So the inference I draw is that I am to be mindful that there are two
separate realms and I am to respect that distinction. I am to just ideas
from outside on their own merits, regardless of their source. And also, I
am to honor and remembaer the source of the ideas and guidance with my Faith
Tradition.
As to the connections with Jackson Armstrong Ingram's thread about the
separate worlds of sexual mores, I'm not sure how this passage addresses it.
I do not agree with you that Abdul Baha is emphasizing that religion is
apparently in need of help. I think he is emphasizing that being religious
does not prohibit being practical. The story of Mohammet digging a trench
reminds me of the old rabbi and priest joke. They are at a prize fight and
before the round, the one boxer crosses himself. And the rabbi asks his
friend the priest, "Father, will that help him?" and the Priest answer," Not
if he can't fight." Something like that.
On Thu, 25 Jan 1996 11:30:28 +1300 (NZDT) Robert Johnston wrote:
>
>Talisman folks,
>
>Today's extract contains a paradox. An unbeliever provides useful
>knowledge for the Prophet, yet 'Abdu'l-Baha distances the teachings of
>God's religions from apparently similar cultural trends of the times in
>which they arise.
On the one hand, religion is shown to be apparently in
>need of help from outside, on the other, its independence is asserted.
>Working this through I concluded that the paradox may be resolved with an
>appreciation of the realisation that God is the All-Bestowing -- that what
>is Caesar's is God's (KI)...and that while some of the cultural practices
>of the day and age may be conform to the Divine Will, other's don't. In
>other words: God comes first in all things, and is not called to account
>for the activities of His creatures.
Here, maybe, is the answer to the
>long letter the other day (from someone Livingstone?) regarding different
>cultural mores, relativity, homosexuality, and the Faith.
>
>Robert.
>
>SDC 16
> Furthermore, in the Battle of the Confederates, Abu Sufyan
>enlisted the aid of the Bani Kinanih, the Bani Qahtan and the Jewish
>Bani Qurayzih and rose up with all the tribes of the Quraysh to put out
>the Divine Light that flamed in the lamp of Yathrib (Medina). In those
>days the great winds of trials and tribulations were blowing from every
>direction, as it is written: "Do +P27 men think when they say `We
>believe' they shall be let alone and not be put to proof?" [Qur'an 29:2.]
>The believers were few and the enemy attacking in force, seeking to blot
>out the new-risen Sun of Truth with the dust of oppression and tyranny.
>Then Salman (the Persian) came into the presence of the Prophet--the
>Dawning-Point of revelation, the Focus of the endless splendors of
>grace--and he said that in Persia to protect themselves from an
>encroaching host they would dig a moat or trench about their lands, and
>that this had proved a highly efficient safeguard against surprise
>attacks. Did that Wellspring of universal wisdom, that Mine of divine
>knowledge say in reply that this was a custom current among idolatrous,
>fire-worshiping Magians and could therefore hardly be adopted by
>monotheists? Or did He rather immediately direct His followers to set
>about digging a trench? He even, in His Own blessed person, took hold of
>the tools and went to work beside them.
>
> It is moreover a matter of record in the books of the various
>Islamic schools and the writings of leading divines and historians, that
>after the Light of the World had risen over Hijaz, flooding all mankind
>with Its brilliance, and creating through the revelation of a new divine
>Law, new principles and institutions, a fundamental change throughout the
>world--holy laws were revealed which in some cases conformed to the
>practices +P28 of the Days of Ignorance.[Jahiliyyih: the period of
>paganism in Arabia, prior to the advent of Muhammad.] Among these,
>Muhammad respected the months of religious truce,[The pagan Arabs observed
>one separate and three consecutive months of truce, during which period
>pilgrimages were made to Mecca, and fairs, poetry contests and similar
>events took place.] retained the prohibition of swine's flesh, continued
>the use of the lunar calendar and the names of the months and so on.
>There is a considerable number of such laws specifically enumerated in the
>texts:
> "The people of the Days of Ignorance engaged in many practices
>which the Law of Islam later confirmed. They would not take in marriage
>both a mother and her daughter, and the most shameful of acts in their
>view was to marry two sisters. They would stigmatize a man marrying the
>wife of his father, derisively calling him his father's competitor. It
>was their custom to go on pilgrimage to the House at Mecca, where they
>would perform the ceremonies of visitation, putting on the pilgrim's
>dress, practicing the circumambulation, running between the hills, pausing
>at all the stopping-places, and casting the stones. It was, furthermore,
>their wont to intercalate one month in every three-year period, to
>perform ablutions after intercourse, to rinse out the mouth and snuff up
>water through the nostrils, to part the hair, use the tooth-stick, pare
>the nails and pluck the armpits. They would, likewise, cut off the right
>hand of a thief."
>
> Can one, God forbid, assume that because some of +P29 the divine
>laws resemble the practices of the Days of Ignorance, the customs of a
>people abhorred by all nations, it follows that there is a defect in these
>laws? Or can one, God forbid, imagine that the Omnipotent Lord was moved
>to comply with the opinions of the heathen? The divine wisdom takes many
>forms. Would it have been impossible for Muhammad to reveal a Law which
>bore no resemblance whatever to any practice current in the Days of
>Ignorance? Rather, the purpose of His consummate wisdom was to free the
>people from the chains of fanaticism which had bound them hand and foot,
>and to forestall those very objections which today confuse the mind and
>trouble the conscience of the simple and helpless.
>
>
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/25/96
Time: 10:41:08
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A. Einstein
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 96 17:32:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Furughi, Browne & Azalis
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Our dear friend Brent inquired:
> What was his [Muhammad-Ali Furughi] relationship to the Babi
> Furughi referred to often in Mr. Furutan's book of stories
> about Baha'u'llah;
No relation. The Baha'i Furughi is Mirza Mahmud-i Furughi. A
tower of Faith and an itinerant teacher whose story is told by
Balyuzi in "Eminent Baha'is in the time of Baha'u'llah", p156-70.
This believer was profoundly loved by both Baha'u'llah and
Abdu'l-Baha and in his honor Abdu'l-Baha has revealed a
well-known Tablet (which in my view is His effort to tie Lawh-i
Shikar Shikan and the Seven Valley). Incidentally, a much fuller
biography of Jinab-i Furughi is available in Sulymani's "Masbih-i
Hedayat" (the lights of guidance)
And my brother Riaz Masrour wrote with a suggestion to start a
thread on the relationship of E.G. Browne and Babi/Azali/Baha'i
communities. Riaz himself is uniquely competent to launch such a
discussion and we would all benefit from a deepening on the
subject and his learning. However, just to get the ball rolling,
let me point out:
With the publication of Nuqtatu'l-Kaf, that infamous forgery
published by E.G. Browne in the name of Hajji Mirza Jani, but in
truth the handy work of `Allamih Muhammad Qazvini, Abdu'l-Baha
was deeply disturbed about Browne's latest campaign and as such
instructed Mirza Abu'l-Fadl to write a refutation. Mirza
Abu'l-Fadl was by then at advanced age (if memory serves, he was
the same age as Abdu'l-Baha) and practically on his deathbed,
decided to write a detailed refutation titled, Kashfu'l-Ghata
(removal of veils).
Abu'l-Fadl was able to write the first 132 pages of this book
before he passed away and then at Abdu'l-Baha's instruction
Siyyid Mihdi Gulpayegani undertook the completion of this
project. Gulpayegani is a cousin of Abu'l-Fadl but since he was
raised by the latter's sister, Abdu'l-Baha in a Tablet refers to
him as the "nephew" of Abu'l-Fadl. (I mention this fact because
so many Baha'i writers commit the wrong inference thinking that
Siyyid Mihdi is an actual nephew, whereas he is a cousin.)
Anyway, I digress. Siyyid Mihdi, with the help of Na'im-i
Sidih'i and the Hands of the Cause in Tihran (two of them)
completes this book which stands over 520 pages long. For a
number of reasons this book did not meet with Abdu'l-Baha's
approval and later efforts were made to collect all copies.
(This book was published before the days of review, and provides
an excellent example why the review system must continue to
exist.) A few copies of Kashfu'l-Ghata have survived.
Now, all of this is meant as background for this discussion.
Some explanation about this episode is provided by Hasan Bayluzi
in his "E.G. Browne and the Baha'i Faith". The main problem with
Balyuzi's book is that it really doesn't provide any useful
detail. And while its a good first step in studying relationship
between Browne and the Babi/Azali/Baha'i communities, a great
deal more remains to be said on the subject.
Anyway, my point with all this background was to point out the
entire 132 pages that Abu'l-Fadl wrote as the first section of
Kashfu'l-Ghata, is truly among the most important contribution of
his career. Mirza Abu'l-Fadl is the first person that cast
significant doubt on the truth of Browne's claim to be a scholar
of Persian literature who happen to be inspired by the heroism of
the Babis. Abu'l-Fadl, stopping short of suggesting that Browne
was a British secret agent trying to infiltrate Iran, very
clearly suggested that Browne's interest stems from his political
connections rather than any scholarly interest. A very true
observation.
The other point that both Mirza Abu'l-Fadl and Siyyid Mihdi most
ably document is Browne's inept command of Persian and Arabic
languages -- they offer many examples of this.
Therefore, in my view, Kashfu'l-Ghata is the first step to start
any kind of discussion on Browne and his role in the Babi/Baha'i
Faiths. I hope somebody on Talisman would volunteer to lead a
deepening on Kashfu'l-Ghata and share some of its details.
regards, ahang.
=END=
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 1996 22:57:56 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand
To: "Eric D. Pierce"
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Relationship between violent history and violent behaviour
This is an interesting threat which i would like to take a tangent on if
i may. One of things i have learned in the course of my studies has been
that the history of a people shapes much of their identity, culture, and
character (ie. individualism in the US is largely a result of the desire
to be an independent, self defined entity as a nation - would you all
agree with this notion?)
Anyway, this takes me to my area of interest in peace research which is
the relationship between culture, religion, spirituality and conflict
formation: i would hypothesize (and not all conflict researchers would
agree) that religions which have a more violent history, ie persecution
(Shi'is), wars (Crusades: create a notion of just war but what the just
war is based on is reprehensible) tend to be more violent in their
expressions and behaviours in a conflict situation. Thus Buddhist nations
on the whole are less violent (not completely non-violent) than say
Christian or Muslim nations.
Social scientists would sort of agree with this: ie. history of violence
repeating itself, the abused become the abuser. THis can be extended from
the interpersonal to the international level of analysis.
QUESTION: Is this a hypothesis which can be made or not?
The other interesting point to ponder is the 'clash of deep cultures'.
For example what happens when a Buddhist deep culture meets a Christian
deep culture (Vietnam) and what are the ramifications? Interesting case
of intercultural conflict and later misunderstanding. What i am
suggesting is what Dr. Galtung refers to as the Vietnamese Buddhist act
of putting forth the hand of reconciliation and the American
(Christian?)interpretation of that act as one of victory on their part,
when that is not at all what was expressed.
Anyway, since all these thoughts will one day God willing collect
themselves into a possible Ph D thesis, any thoughts would be greatly
appreciated. Have pity on an idealistic (trying to be realistic) Baha'i
surrounded by cynics!!!
Warm Regards
Cheshmak Farhoumand
MS Candidate, Institute for Conflict Analysis and Resolution
"i expect to pass through this world but once. Any good therefore that i
can do or any kindness that i can show to any fellow creature, let me do
it now. Let me not defer or neglect it, for i shall not pass this way
again . . . "
Author Unknown
=END=
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 96 07:46:32+030
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: sexual morals
Dear Friends:
I, too, am surprised at all the different reactions to Jackson's posting.
But I do have a confession to make...I didn't have any reaction, beyond "How
interesting". I guess I don't think too much about which positions are the
correct ones, or which liasons are the correct ones. Having grown up in a
Judeo/Christian society, I naturally follow those which are commonly
accepted, (which can be quite diverse when you get right down to it) using
my own feelings of being comfortable with what is "happening" as my guide.
My partner in life is a person whom I trust, and it has never been a problem
of overstepping bounds which I feel "comfortable" in. Details are a private
matter between us. Having lived a few years overseas, I also accept that
other folks have different practices...since I am not engaging in them as a
partner, I never felt it was of much concern to me, although it was
interesting to learn about them. Again, details are a private matter not
discussed.
When people of other countries decide to follow the teachings of
Baha'u'llah, then they will come to terms as to how to fit their sexual
patterns and liasons in keeping with the faith. I, for one, have no
intention of wasting my time instructing them on anything past the marriage
laws (consent of parents and exchange of vow) when it comes to sex. So many
sexual patterns and marriage patterns are based on survival of the tribe
that it is hardly fair to sit in judgement. In Africa, for example, where
polygamy is practiced, a man who has accepted Baha'u'llah's teachings is not
required to put away any of his wives, but is required to honour his
committment to her, her children and to do so until the death of the wife or
children...just like "regular" folks. He is required not to replace that
wife with a new one, until natural selection leaves him with either one or
none. Even the urban setting has not deterred polygamy here, in fact it has
made it more "necessary" in the man's point of view. He has one wife in the
city to look after his needs, meet social status obligations, and to keep
his home there, and one wife (or more) in the village to look after his farm
and land. But there are many Baha'is who are making the adjustment to
monogomy...with time. I am sure the same holds true for same sex
relationships. If it is explicit in the writings that this is not part of
the Baha'i teachings, and if those choosing to follow those teachings are
sincere, they will make the required adjustment in their heart and do so
willingly. Our responsibility is to assist them with love and
understanding...they are people, not statistics.
I have had some wonderful friends (Iranian by birth) become quite agitated
at mild nudity (not intended eroticism) in my paintings...their comment was
that we wear underwear so that the earth will not be embarrassed by our
private parts. It was at this point I realized that they had some kind of
bias. I did not feel it was my duty to try and change that. I didn't
change my painting either. I have also stood with men who are wearing
nothing but a cloth tied around their neck, and women with a flap of animal
skin around their groin. Again, nothing felt amiss, I was not embarassed,
and neither were they...it didn't matter as the different manners of dress
was not on our agenda...besides, it was so hot I was envious of their
freedom from my idea of conventional clothing. Their sexual practices were
never part of the conversation in either case. It is not at all uncommon
here in Africa for same sex friends to walk about holding hands...it has no
sexual association...it is an expression of friendship.
Now, there is a lot in the writings which is not in English, and some which
is not available, so I am not in a position to be an authority on what the
writings say. Can anyone get beyond our cultural hang-ups and really narrow
the discussion down to:
a) What do the writings identify as "Baha'i sexual practices"?
b) What exact liasons are identified as being Baha'i in nature?
c) What interpretation is offered for their application by
authoritative sources for these in the Faith?
Love,
Bev.
=END=
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 96 15:42:55 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg"
To: Juan R Cole
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: status quo and utopia
> First, we should map out the ideological world in which we live. The
> political "right" refers to systems that value unquestioned authority,
> hierarchy, unequal distribution of power and wealth. The political
> "left" values egalitarianism, the dispersal and distribution of wealth
> and power . . .
Dear Juan:
I like it. I think the train may be back on the track.
Steve
=END=
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 08:00:42 +0100
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: Loni.BramsonLerche@ping.be (Loni Bramson-Lerche)
Subject: books/intro
I have not sent a personal introduction because I
could not think of anything much to say, except for
my family and I have pioneered in Belgium, Germany,
the Free City of Berlin, and Nigeria. However send-
ing in a list of favorite books is an excellent means
of self-introduction. These are the "non-Baha'i"
(sorry, I do not have a problem with the term as I
see "non-Christian", "non-Jewish", "non-Buddhist", etc. in
academic books I read) and non-academic books I have
chosen to take with me to three different continents
(along with several hundred Baha'i and academic books).
The Book of Heroic Failures, Stephen Pile (a must for
all pioneers)
A Man of the People, Chinua Achebe
Pilgrimage, Zenna Henderson
The Best of Henry Kuttner
everything by Jane Austen
Black Like Me, John Howard Griffen
The Big Knockover, Dashiell Hammett
Briefing for a Descent into Hell, Doris Lessing
The Memoirs of a Survivor, Doris Lessing
A Room of One's Own, Virginia Woolf
Sincerely, Loni Bramson-Lerche
=END=
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 96 16:09:54 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg"
To: Juan R Cole
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: hurt feelings
> My posting in response to Stephen Friberg's on intellectuals appears to
> have hurt his feelings.
And seemed to be a sparing match totally at cross-purposes to what I
was trying to get across!
It was if a bright light had been placed in front of me so that I
cast a gigantic shadow on a screen around which sat Newt Gingrich,
William Buckely, Lenin, Chomsky, and Allan Bloom, as well as the
entire supporting cast of all the PBS stations everywhere in the
world. And, if I moved my hand to underline a point, my giant
shadow whisked out a rapier, dangling it caressingly at the neck
of the maiden, while evil henchmen snickered menacingly in the
background . . .
> Anyway, if any of my words came across too strongly, I am happy
to apologize.
Juan, thank you very much, but I certainly don't deserve the kind
words and the great honor you do me. Rather, the case is that I
indeed needed to be deflated, after being much too aggressive
and cocksure in some of my posting!
Yours sincerely,
Stephen R. Friberg
=END=
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 00:26:33 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Ahang Rabbani
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: E. G. Browne
Dear Ahang & Talizens--
This is no doubt an important topic of discussion, but one unfortunately
marred (sp?) by polemics on both sides (Baha'i & non-Baha'i). Personally, I
wasn't too impressed by Balyuzi's account in _E.G. Browne and the Baha'i
Faith_, as I find it too biased and sectarian an analysis. I haven't read
Mirza Abu'l-Fazl's _Kashf'ul-Ghata_ but I doubt its objectivity, since Mirza
Abu'l-Fazl was not a Babi or even a marginal participant in the events of
that period. Also, isn't Nuqtat'ul-Kaf yet to conclusively be proven a
forgery? Juan, Tony or John?
As far as E.G. Browne himself is concerned: the view that has E.G. Browne
being some kind of British agent provacteur (sp?) sent to Iran to make
contact with potential 'trouble makers' (the Azalis) in order to further
the cause of British Imperialism, is simply a stretch of the Iranian "DAyjAn
NApelon," conspiracy-theory-minded imagination and just flat-out
wrong. Browne was not and could not have been a British agent precisely
because he was His Majesty's (Edward was monarch, right?) worst critic of
the latters Iran policy. Read for example his _The Persian Revolution,
1905-09_ and especially Abbas Amanat's comments in the introduction to
the new edition of this work: Mage Publishers (Washington, DC: 1995). In
fact, by todays standards Browne would be called a '*screaming* pinko
bleeding-heart liberal' :-) He was thoroughly in love with Iran and all
things Iranian and defended her at every turn. Anyone who's ever read
Browne's monumental, ground-breaking 4 volume opus history of Persian
literature, _A Literary History of Persia_, cannot come away feeling
otherwise; or _A Year Amongst the Persians_, for that matter.
Sure, there are flaws of a concrete nature with Browne's overall
perspective on the Babi-Baha'i (and Azali) Faiths, nonetheless he was the
first Western European ever to treat the subject from any level of
objectivity -- neither Gobineau nor Renan did. This, notwithstanding the
fact that he held the Bab and the Babis in the profoundest sentimental
regard, much like his French contemporary A-L-M Nicolas who counted
himself a Babi. For this, as well as his scholarship on the other aspects
of Iranian thought, he *must* be acknowledged, and needless to say that
all of us modern Persianists & Islamicists owe the man a debt of
gratitude (I wish Frank Lewis was still here!).
Browne's defense of Subh-i Azal had a lot to do with his 'always root for
the underdog' approach to both life and scholarship -- even Moojan
acknowledges this in his _The Babi & Baha'i Faiths: Some Contemporary
Western Accounts_. It was, what one might call, Browne's peculiar, quirky
idiosyncracy, and nothing more. There was absolutely no ulterior political
motive involved. And, besides, Browne himself says that his romantic
idealization was shaped by the laudatory account given of Azal in
Gobineau's book, his constant point of reference. Btw, as you know, Browne
was also a big fan of the pan-Islamicist, Seyyed Jamaleddin Asad-AbAdi
(a.k.a. Afghani), which the Baha'is don't like very much either (a feeling
mutually shared) and have accused of being a British lackey (i.e.
nowkar-i EngileestAn).
Above all, however, Browne wasn't denigrating of either Baha'u'llah or
the Master. Certainly he took issue with Baha'i historical revisionism
(or what Denis Maceoin has more pejorativilly labeled as a form of
dishonest systematic, methodological "conflation"), but, then again, who
hasn't; fair is fair! And, personally, I can't blame E.G. Browne for not
being overly impressed with the apolitical stance taken by the Baha'is
during the Constitutional Revolution.
Have I opened a 'can-of-worms' or what? :-)
Regards,
Nima
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 05:33:11 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Natural Law: What it is not and is . . . PART III
Continuing on with the definitions:
D. Nature as the correct ordering of incipient tendency
For Plato virtue is a universal ontological category not restricted to man.
All of existence is ordered and thus all parts of this existence are also
ordered, i.e. each entity does what is fitting for it to do. The ordered
existence will not sanction any of its parts from fulfilling its natural
capacity.
Just as there is a right course to follow, so also, according to Plato, there
are contrary
courses which can be chosen and which distort and weaken the tendency of the
soul toward virtue. In these passages just noted, especially the last two,
this concept is expanded further. In the Meno 78c Socrates states that the
"power of acquiring good things . . . is virtue." In the Gorgias 506d5
Socrates asks Callicles to admit to the apparent fact that the "goodness" of
any entity does not come to that entity by accident:
But the goodness of ourselves and of all other good things is due to the
presence of some excellence? That seems necessarily true, Callicles. But
surely the goodness of anything, whether implement or body or soul or any
living thing, does not best come to it merely by haphazard, but through a
certain rightness and order and through the art that is assigned to each of
them. Is it so? I certainly agree. Then the goodness of anything is due to
order and arrangement? I should agree. It is then the presence in each thing
of the order appropriate to it that makes everything good? So it appears to
me.
So for non-cognitive beings this ordering is automatic. It is constantly
operational in
nature. Humans, though, as rational beings can participate consciously in
many elements of their tendential nature. Humans make moral choices: whether
to act justly or unjustly, with kindness or hate, etc. So in the Republic
435e2, where Socrates is referring to the qualities he wishes the state to
have, he links this with the state's citizens and the virtues they have
through Form and habit. In Plato's reference to nature in this term, Plato
means to prove that nature orders tendencies toward a virtuous end.
The mode of ordering initial tendencies which is fitting, proper, and right
is one which
agrees with the needs of nature. Hence, at both the subhuman level and the
human level those virtuous acts which ought to take place are constantly
described as being in accordance with nature, each nature having its proper
virtue. Thus, we are told that "the first shoot of any plant being well
advanced at the very beginning towards the virtue of its own nature has an
advantage on reaching maturity, and this is true of other plants, of wild
and tame animals and of man".[Laws 765e] In the case of man, certain of his
tendencies are more important than others, goods of the body being
subordinate to goods of the soul, and all to the supreme virtue of wisdom.
This is not an arbitrary order but one which has been determined by
nature.Right action is described as agreeing with nature.[cf. Laws 631d1-2].
E. Nature as existential fulfillment
The last definition of nature, linked closely with what we've examined above
is to
understand the distinction between virtue and goodness. While these two are
impossible to separate, yet there is a distinction, which will become clear
as we continue with Wild's analysis of Plato's definitions of the term
nature.
For Plato, goodness or value is an ontological category applying to all
existence, and is by no means restricted to man. Its primary mark is
sufficiency. The good, we are told, "is sufficient and complete and such as
to be sought by all plants and animals which could live in this way all their
lives". [Philebus 22b]. It is important to notice here that the goodness of
living creatures is not a fixed state ever to be finally reached, for their
life is a process. Such a fixed state would be death. The good of a finite
creature is rather a way of life, penetrating through the whole of the
process.
Plato sees life as a series of progressive stages of development. The more an
entity fulfills its capacities the better it is. Goodness is the realization
of tendency God alone is perfect. All other creatures are subject to
limitation. Limitation though does not equal evil for Plato (as it seems to
be viewed later in Christian theology).
So value is the fulfillment of natural tendency. Evil is the willful
obstruction and
frustration of such tendency. This obstruction of tendency is always referred
to in negative or privative terms. Injustice causes a man or society to be at
odds with themselves. Even the term"honor among thieves" is a recognition of
this fact. An outlaw gang could not operate effectively as a team without
some element of justice existing
among them.
Evil is always the privation of some good. The possession of money and
material things is good. The corresponding evil is poverty. Health is the
good of the body. Its evil is disease and deformity. Virtue is the health of
the soul. Vice is injustice and the lack of knowledge. Good and evil are
existential categories. To exist in a condition of realization and
fulfillment is good. Evil is nonexistence and destruction.
Each entity must fulfill (realize) its capacities. But it must be remembered
that each entity also has its own peculiar nature. The "good" for one entity
is not necessarily the good for another. Goodness then is not just
fulfillment of capacity but fulfillment of a particular capacity. It is also
important to note that the good is not to be confused with our opinions and
hopes.
We are in no position to legislate what is really good and bad. This
humanistic pride is a
delusion of utilitarianism. It is nature that first legislates independent of
all arbitrary human decree. Hence, throughout the dialogues this word is used
to suggest what is really sound and healthy as opposed to our subjective
opinions and desires. The pragmatic followers of Protagoras are ready to
grant with respect to what is merely advantageous for a state, that one
counselor may be better than another. But when it comes to the ultimate
questions concerning goodness and justice they collapse into relativism and
stubbornly assert that "no one of these has by nature an essence of its own,
but that the common opinion of men is true when it is adopted, and
remains true as long as it is held. [Theaetetus 172b]. In the Cratylus
[387a], Plato writes:
"actions are performed according to their real nature, and not according to
our opinion."
In these and many other passages the word nature is used in a realistic
sense, to mean what actually exists as opposed to our subjective opinions and
desires. Real goodness has nothing to do with our wishes.
How are we to determine the real nature of any entity? Palto's answer is to
search out the qualities, Forms or attributes of this entity and compare them
against the best standard available of these attributes. In the Philebus
(44e) he describes this search with regard to the quality of hardness. Since
all entities are in the process of change, tending toward a greater
acquisition of the attributes determined by their nature, we must look for
the most intense display of those qualities.
Human nature will be observed at its best in those individuals who have
pushed their
capacities to the very breaking point. Here we shall find the most complete
and authentic human life. But we must be on our guard against fiction and
pretense. We must penetrate through outward display to what is really there
in nature, looking for situations in which the tendency is able to display
itself in act spontaneously, from the agent himself.
Now we come to the end of this analysis of Plato's five definitions of the
term nature, and specifically with regard to the close connection of virtue
and goodness with the following:
In the light of this analysis, we may attempt to cast some light on Plato's
conception of the intimate relation between virtue and goodness. On the one
hand, they are distinct, and yet on the other hand, so closely fused together
that he often seems to speak of them as though they are one. The meaning of
this should now be intelligible. Good and evil are not to be analyzed in
terms of formal structure (properties and qualities) alone. They are rather
dynamic modes of existence with a temporal history. Thus, human good and evil
begin as incipient tendencies and "spring from the soul . . . flowing out
from thence . . ." into the fulfillment or deprivation. [Charmides 156e]. The
right ordering of these first tendencies in accordance with nature is virtue
- the chief cause of good. But goodness is fulfillment - the actual being
and full possession of realization.[Symposium 205-206]. Virtue is the chief
cause of good. But owing to the limitations of human nature, other good
things like health of body, physical strength and money are also
required for the fullest realization. [Laws 631b-e]. The lack of such good
things can keep us from happiness, and if sufficiently extreme may even lead
us to misery [Gorgias 469b]. But the virtues are higher in the order of
nature. Hence, to lack these is an even greater misery, disease of the soul
itself, the inner, moving principle. To do injustice is worse than to suffer
it. Virtue is the inner power to act and exist in accordance with nature.
Finite goodness is the actualizing of this power,
with the aid and support of other external forces. Hence, virtue is included
within goodness as its most essential part, as a power is included in its
realization.
Thanks for taking the time to read this. Now we can use this to anaylze the
misconceptions lying at the heart of liberal-democratic ideology.
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 03:06:14 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re Books A Big Favor
Ten favorites, old and new:
Baha'i
1. Kitab-I-Iqan
2. Priceless Pearl
3. Some Answered Questions
4. Paris Talks
5. The Purpose of Physical Reality by John Hatcher
Other
6. the 5-book series on the Church of England by Susan Howatch
7. Preparing for the Twenty First Century by Paul Kennedy
8. Poems of Gerard Manley Hopkins
9. Women Who Run with the Wolves by Clarisa Pinkola Estes
10. Being Digital by Nicholas Negroponte
Sandy Fotos
=END=
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 12:08:37 +0100
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Peter Loehndorf
Subject: My 10 favourite BOOKS
1.) Erik Blumenthal, The Way to Inner Freedom
2.) Hellmut Ritter, Das Meer der Seele - Mensch, Welt und Gott in den
Geschichten
des Fariduddin Attar (Translation of the title: The Ocean of the Soul -
Man, World and God in the Stories of Fariduddin Attar). -- A
true masterpiece of a professor at Frankfurt University.
3.) Annemarie Schimmel, Stern und Blume - Die Bilderwelt der persischen Poesie
(Star and Flower - The World of Metaphors of Persian Poetry (1984))
4.) The Dawnbreakers - Nabil's Narrative
5.) Karlheinz Deschner, Abermals kraehte der Hahn - eine kritische
Kirchengeschichte (The cock crowed (crew ?) again - a critical church
history)
6.) Johannes Hessen, Die Werte des Heiligen - Eine neue Religionsphilosophie
(1938)
(The Values of Religion - A new philosophy of relegion)
7.) Friedrich Heiler, Erscheinungsformen und Wesen der Religion (1961)
A Phenomenology of Religion
8.) Udo Schaefer, et alii: Desinformation als Methode - Die
Baha'ismus-Monographie des F. Ficicchia (Misinformation as method -
**Contra Ficicchiam**. -- Brilliant! I've learnt a lot.
9.) God Passes By, (English Original). The German translation of 1948 is a
catastrophe! Revised edn. 1974: even worse! The Guardian should have
written it in German...
10.) Tablets of Baha'u'llah revealed after the Kitab-i-Aqdas
and some other books as well, I suppose.
Cordial greetings:
Peter
Fax +49-2803-8209
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 03:06:25 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Homeless
Dear Talismans,
On a list for English as a Second Language educators, there has been a big
thread on literacy and ESL for homeless people. Here is one person's
observation:
*************************
>>At one time, admittedly several years ago, I taught reading to homeless
people. Most of the people I saw were white, male, had only 3 or 4 years of
formal education; they were itinerants from all over the country. Many were
ill with TB, were disabled, mentally ill, retarded, alcoholic. These were no
poster boys, but very rough people who had lived all their lives in the most
chaotic kind of poverty. Admittedly this was before so many families had
been put on the street as a result of current cruel economic policies.
What I mean to say is that the homeless don't need a better media image.
In the 80's people did more for the homeless although the homeless were
mostly thought to be filthy, drunk, and violent. Now there's more
sympathy and less actually being done for people. The real needs are for
jobs, food, clothing, medical care, shelter--not expressions of sympathy
or specials on homeless families. As teachers, we need to beware of
media manipulations of this huge social disgrace.
btw--What about the Japanese police clearing away the men who live in
packing boxes in Tokyo? And did you see the cartoon of a guy lying in his
packing box reading Bill Gates's "The Road Ahead"? If ESL funding
continues to go down, we may be searching for a comfy large box ourselves.
*******************
What will the various Baha'i communities do when large numbers of the
homeless and other marginalized members of society enter the Faith?
(I would like to develop this thought myself but am finishing up my book and
working on several articles, and, oddly enough, find that the act of
composing thoughtful posts "bleeds" rather than "feeds" my focus and
creativity in these other areas. It is so amazing to read the volume of
excellent output that Talisman members are capable of producing on an almost
daily basis!)
Anyway, perhaps it is time to consider more concrete strategies for dealing
with a range of diversity so extreme that we can't even begin to imagine it.
Best,
Sandy
=END=
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 96 20:59:06 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: The heart of the liberal-democratic ideology
Dear Jim, Keven, Rick, Linda, Terry, Juan, and all:
Now that Juan has so successfully co-opted me onto his side by such a
generous and open-hearted apology, let's get down to business:
Juan has put his cards onto the table (or actually, into a table).
Could we do something likewise? How about some short, sweet summaries
of our main points? What do you say?
In my business, whenever we send a manuscript off to the journals
to be published, we are forced to write a 100 word summary. Usually,
we try to make it as good as possible, as that is all that most people
will read (I get privately more than a thousand journal pages each
month!!). Writing those things is a good exercise!
I suggest something like a quick summary of what's wrong with a
liberal-democratic (or a conservative-republican) ideology (Jim?)
or some other topic, 100 words or less. Or, perhaps a quick
summary of what's right about liberal democracies and then and
explanation of what's needed to keep them from imploding (Terry?),
which is what they seem to be successful at lately (though Clinton
has some other thoughts on that lately).
What do you say? Do you like it? Any takers? Too much like school?
More-or-less we define the problems first, then crib the answers
from the Advent of Divine Justice, or some of Shoghi Effendi's
writings later, ne?
Yours, Stephen R. Friberg
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 08:14:53 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Natural law and its distortions . . .
The whole point of that rather long-winded explanation of the concept of the
term *nature* as Plato defines it is to set the stage for what Steve F is
calling for - an analysis of the major flaws of liberal democratic ideology.
It is NOT to cast aside human rights but rather to approach the *illls*
spoken of by the Guardian that we have in America with an eye to *healing*
them. These illnesses are of course misconceptions that allow the human ego
to hold sway over the course of the soul. The philosophical foundations that
allow Individualism and Materialism to shape the World-view of millions and
which lays excessive stress on material well-being, and self-centeredness
(continious stress on the never-sated *need* for *self*-fulfillment,
*self*-realization, *self*-actualization, *self*- etc., etc. etc.)
And it isn't as if these illnesses that the Guardian are buried shallowly -
just under the surface of the American psyche. If we read carefully the
Guardian we see that he is acknowledging that there are ancient mental
*templates* laid down that we follow. This is true of every culture -
cultrual *traits* traditions, etc. More to the point tho it is our
World-view our axiologies.
So this analysis of what true natural law is - and how real natural rights
flow from it and find their true fulfillment in also *flowing* back toward
the larger Source of natrual law is crucial if we hope to understand where
the flaws are in the assumptions of American's favorite phrase:
"Hey! I gotta right to . . ."
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 96 06:35:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Browne
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Nima,
Whether we agree with Mirza Abu'l-Fadl's analysis or not is a matter of
personal conviction -- I personally won't be so quick to dismiss him as
yet another nutty Persian with wild imagination about conspiracies, etc.
He deserves more respect.
> I haven't read Mirza Abu'l-Fazl's _Kashf'ul-Ghata_ but I doubt its
> objectivity, since Mirza Abu'l-Fazl was not a Babi or even a marginal
> participant in the events of that period.
He was very much qualified to comment on the events as he knew a number
of key participants including Aqa Siyyid Javad Karbalai who was closely
informed of the events and over a long period of time conveyed his
knowledge to Mirza Abu'l-Fadl. He was also very closely connected with
many others including Mirza Habib Afnan who had some unique knowledge
about the events. Mirza Abu'l-Fadl is the man-behind-the-scenes of
Siyyid Husayn Hamadani's Tarikh Jadid. At any rate, I find it rather
peculiar that to have defend his knowledge of the subject at this late
time!
> Also, isn't Nuqtat'ul-Kaf yet to conclusively be proven a forgery?
> Juan, Tony or John?
Its a forgery. NK is the work of Muhammad Qazvini -- he admits to it
himself in one of his articles and after his death Muhammad-Ali Furughi
in a eulogy of his death (printed in Yaghma magazine) also points out the
same. Here you have two key Azali figures admitting it, isn't that
enough?
Besides, more importantly, the original manuscript of Mirza Jani Kashi
has been located by Jinab-i Farid, but I best say no more.
> the view that has E.G. Browne being some kind of British agent
> provacteur (sp?) sent to Iran to make contact with potential 'trouble
> makers' (the Azalis) in order to further the cause of British
> Imperialism, is simply a stretch of the Iranian "DAyjAn NApelon,"
> conspiracy-theory-minded imagination and just flat-out wrong.
I personally have no view on this, but suggest reading Anthony Eden
(prime minister of England during the war years) for some details.
> Certainly he took issue with Baha'i historical revisionism (or what
> Denis Maceoin has more pejorativilly labeled as a form of dishonest
> systematic, methodological "conflation"), but, then again, who
> hasn't; fair is fair!
This statement is simply not true and I ask you offer examples of this
Baha'i methodlogical "conflation". And there is nothing fair about it
either. Faday-Islams been making the same baseless accusation for over
50 years. Let's see your evidence about this evident "dishonesty" which
persumably would include the Heads of our Faith!
> And, personally, I can't blame E.G. Browne for not being overly
> impressed with the apolitical stance taken by the Baha'is during the
> Constitutional Revolution.
This is a huge subject by itself, but I find it again most troubling for
anyone to so casually dismiss Abdu'l-Baha's directive and careful
strategy in this entire episode. If it wasn't for Him not keeping
Baha'is out of events as the revolutionary process unfolded, two things
are guaranteed: (1) total massacre of Iranian Baha'is, (2) collapse of
the revolution.
Anyway, I'm not interested in pursuing any thread that may cause disunity
and as such I'm canceling plans (as I'd promise a few people) to outline
Kashfu'l-Ghata.
ahang.
=END=
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 08:13:39 -0600
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: John Bromberek
Subject: Re: Books: A big Favor
At 09:52 AM 1/24/96 -0900:
> Friends,
>
> I would like to ask you a very big favor. Would it be possible
> for you to post the top 10 books you have loved the most? It
> can be on any subject, fiction or non-fiction, Baha'i,
> Baha'inot, etc.
>
> Arsalan J. Sadighi
A fool's mission, to be sure.
The short answer is: no.
However, when given an impossible task to perform, the first
thing I always do is ignore the instructions. (Just *try* to get
me to answer survey questions.)
Had you asked for "the top four or five hundred books you are
glad you read" there might be a chance of creating a meaningful
list, given enough time and motivation.
Even the 'ten "Baha'i books" you loved the most,' would be an
impossible task, as everything is dependent upon something else.
And how would one compare Baha'u'llah and the Bab to `Abdu'l-
Baha, or Shoghi Effendi, let alone anyone else. So, given all
the necessary caveats, I might put together a list of good stuff
such as:
Kitab-i-Aqdas
Kitab-i-Iqan
Seven Valleys
Qur'an
Secret of Divine Civilization
World Order of Baha'u'llah
Advent of Divine Justice
Revelation of Baha'u'llah (4V)
Priceless Pearl
Resurrection and Renewal
One must necessarily put the Baha'i stuff in a different
category than everything else. If one were interested in general
good stuff (not necessarily the best of the best) another list is
required. So, for instance, those below not would be an entirely
arbitrary selection. I've picked some old ones, warmly remembered,
and some newer ones, in no particular order. (These are not
necessarily great books, but some which just opened up different
areas of inquiry to me which had not earlier been explored--there
are, undoubtedly other, and perhaps better, entry points to any of
the subject areas. Each of our paths must be different.)
Madame Blavatsky's Baboon
Jesus & the Judaism of His Time
(a useful primer for the one-time Christian who would
actually like to enjoy reading "Resurrection and Renewal")
The Eternal Message of Muhammad
The Sufi Path of Love
Descarte's Error
Fads and Fallacies in the Name of Science
Small is Beautiful
The Anatomy of Peace
The Veil and the Male elite
In the Beginning: The Advent of the Modern Age--Europe in the 1840's
And, rebel to the core, one more, just for the fun of it--
strictly for it's mindless entertainment value:
Pilgrim at Tinker Creek.
Bye,
John Bromberek
Fayetteville, Arkansas
johnb@intellinet.com
=END=
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 09:03:02 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Browne
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Ahang Rabbani" ,
"Talisman"
Beloved Ahang I beg you,
Just when we are getting into something interesting for a change--don't
desert us now! Nima was just playing the provacatuer as someone has to
do in any facinating discussion.
Your bother Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 96 18:22:33 PST
Subject: My ten books
To: talisman@indiana.edu
This is a fascinating thread. I get a whole extra dimension of
various people through this question.
Here's mine. In no particular order. I don't really think of my
reading as this or that book I tend to find an author and try to read
everything.
Mind and Nature by Gregory Bateson. and his other three books
The Rag and Bone Shop of the Heart , a collection of poems by Robert
Bly, James Hillman and Michael Mead.
Iron John by Robert Bly. (Sustained me through a terrible crisis)
The Inner Reaches of Outer Space by Joseph Campbell.Along with Hero
with a thousand faces and The Power of Myth
A Blue Fire : works of James Hillman edited by Thomas Moore, Along
with five or six of his other books.
The New Yorker. I know it's a magazine but I've been reading it for
35 years and many books which were introduced in it. These days I'll
read anything written by Antony Lane.
C.G. Jung.
Milton Erickson. My Erickson library contains about twenty volumes.
The other regular read for me is Parabola magazine.
I did love the Tolkien series and read them all
I love Barbara Kingsolver's writing. She has about a sentence very
page that makes me laugh with delight.
That's my list.
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/25/96
Time: 18:22:33
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 1996 08:31:55 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: E. G. Browne
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Sadra" , "Ahang Rabbani"
Cc: "Talisman"
I have not read all of Browne's works, only those that dealt directly
with the Cause. From those readings I took away that he distrusted, the
Baha'I, and really the "immemorial view of God's Faith" that "He does
whatsoever He willeth". By this I mean he continually quibbled (if I may
paraphrase) over "What if the Prophet or Manifestation asks you to do
this". It seemed to me that he felt more comfortable with the easy
answers of "Christian Pacifism" than with the rigors of a strenuous
mystical search. I believe he was not able to break free from his early
indoctrination into a belief that always sub-consciously controlled him.
That being--Christianity is the superior and civilized religion. He
continually harks back to this condescension during his discussions in "A
Year Amongst the Persians". This "romanticism" finally over-threw him and
led him to some profound misapprehensions.
Your criticisms of H. M. Balyuzi's book may be revealing but your charge
that Mirza Abu'l Fadl was biased stretches credulity. Because who among
us can say we are unbiased. The point is: was Mirza so infatuated as a
Baha'i that he abrogated his principles as a historian and a Baha'i.
Something tells me from reading his works that are available that this
didn't happen. Also I believe you have fallen into the fallacy of "A
phenomenon can only be accurately observed from the outside." Modern
thinking has shown that all observations are made from a relative point-
the significance of that "point" would be whether the observer followed
sound scientific method's during the observation. I will quote you in
reference to the points that were just made. " but I doubt its
objectivity, since Mirza Abu'l-Fazl was not a Babi or even a marginal
participant in the events of that period. Also, isn't Nuqtat'ul-Kaf yet
to conclusively be proven a forgery?".
Of course, this is all in the able hands of the learned historians--I'm
just a simple film theorist.
I look forward to your reply.
Your Brother Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 96 06:58 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Megha Shyam
Subject: My Bio
Dear friends on the Talisman:
A few people asked me for my bio; well here it is briefly.
I was raised in India and came to the US in earl 60s to go
to school at Harvard; soon afterwards I transferred to Stanford
and got a Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering. Became a Baha'i
in Palo Alto in 1965 during the time of the Watts riots (may be some
of you remember it!) I lived in the SF area until 1977 when my job
at Hewlett Packard broght me to Oregon and I have been in Oregon
ever since. For the past 6 years or so, I started a software company
in Oregon to develop applications for HP's calculator line, and now
developing multimedia software to teach math, science and engineering
to high school and college students.
My Baha'i experiences include many - early on was involved with
Geyserville Baha'i School and its move to the current site in Santa Cruz,
serve of the LSAs of Palo Alto, San Francisco, Santa Clara and now
Corvallis, OR; serve on National Education Committee in its early stages,
went as a delegate to the National convention several times, attended
some of the ABS annual meetings etc.
My job gave me very little time during the last 6 years or so to actively
participate in activities such as Talisman, but now it is getting a little
easier
to do so.
My interests include history of the Faith, organizational culture, financial
affairs, philosophy, writing.
Any way I am glad to be on board and hopefully participate with a positive
outlook.
Cheers
Megha Shyam
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 96 17:39:14 PST
Subject: RE: sexuality/family life
To: talisman@indiana.edu, LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu,
748-9178@mcimail.com, Joseph Cincotta
On Thu, 25 Jan 96 12:03:16 EWT LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
wrote:
>Just a few quick thoughts on Jackson and Phillips's postings re:
sexuality,
>which I have really appreciated. Like Phillip, I too have been
concerned with
>the Baha'i Faith just being another imperialist religion with mostly
Americans
>and Persians running around the planet telling others how to behave.
This must
>get a bit tiresome of the natives.
>
>I don't in the slightest want to diminish the importance of
Jackson's messsage
>on the diversity of human sexuality and sexual norms. I just want
to add
>another perspective. The societies which you reported on, Jackson,
as I
>recall, were cases of isolated societies. Many of these are in a
transitional
>state. They are to various degrees having contact with the outside
world and
>are becoming part of the world economy. Even in very remote areas,
we find men
>going on to work for businesses, earning cash and leaving behind
their
>subsistence way of life. This is very disruptive to old family
structures.
>
>For example, we might find a society that normally practices
polygyny. That
>structure may have been the norm and the entire way of life of the
community
>centers on this. However, once men start leaving the village for the city and
>working for money, nothing is the same. He can't afford to support more than
>one wife. Village women also migrate to the city. Their life experiences and
>expectations change. She would find no advantage to sharing a husband with
>other women. They would not be doing the type of work that would have made
>other women in the household useful. They can easily be exposed to movies and
>T.V. that show a different way of life for women that will make husband sharing
>less attractive. What tends to happen here is that men, accustomed to polygyny
>but, now, not in a situation to practice it, will take girlfriends. The usual
>controls of the village in regulating sexual behavior will have been disposed
>of and new societal rules will not have been put in place.
>
>As I don't need to tell you, urban life tends to promote the nuclear household.
>(I know there are cases where this is not necessarily so, but in general this
>is how it has worked.) In such a situation, nothing really is more
>advantageous than the monogomous, totally faithful, enduring relationship of a
>man and a woman. (This does not address the issue of homosexuality, I know.
>That is still another matter). I was more concerned with addressing the issue
>Phillip is raising.
>
>While the world is certainly a complex place, the tendency is for more
>experiences to be shared. My Iraqi friends living in the West are a very good
>example of all this. They are, for the most part, straight out of Najaf and
>Karbala. Their world was a very narrow one. Girls married at about age 13 and
>proceded to stay at home and have children. Life in the West quickly disrupts
>this pattern. I am quite close to a family where there are four sons and three
>daughters. The sons all married in their twenties. The three oldest are
>trained as scholars, the youngest is in medical school. The oldest daughter
>was married off at age 13, the two older ones are unmarried and in college. I
>was told quite frankly that this (i.e., the daughters going to college) never
>would have occurred had the family remained in the M.E. There will never be
>any question about polygyny or even temporary marriage in this family. It is
>not that they have become assimilated into American society. Not at all. But
>circumstances have forced changes - and some rethinking of things.
>
>I suppose my point is that the Baha'i teachings on sexuality and marriage will
>not seem so strange and out of place in most situations in the world today. I
>agree that if we go off to the heart of New Guinea where there is little
>culture contact we might run into some situations where we might think that
>there is no place at all for our notions of marriage and family. But those
>places I believe are rapidly becoming fewer in number.
>
>This by no means makes me think that we can be complacent and think that our
>perception of the Baha'i teachings can and should be forced down others
>throats. Nor do I think that we should quit discussing how individual
>variations in human sexuality can be accomodated in the Baha'i community.
>Again, these are just musings on how I see the world today in connection with a
>particular aspect of the Baha'i teachings.
>
>P.S. Could someone please give Nima a good book to read. Poor thing. Linda
>
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/25/96
Time: 17:39:14
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A. Einstein
=END=
Date: Fri, 26 Jan 96 07:01 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Megha Shyam
Subject: Re: Buddhism/Islam: history of persecutions or violent
conflict?
t 02:34 PM 1/25/96 PST8PDT, you wrote:
>Hi,
>
>I have a fuzzy recollection of something about Himalayan
>history from readings years ago (possibly "Snow Leopard"
>and other books). Does anyone know anything about the
>historical persecutions of Buddhists by Moslems (or other
>Buddhist/Moslem conflict) in India, Nepal or other Asian
>areas? Was Sunni different from Shiah Islam in this
>respect?
>
>Also, why didn't Buddhism historically extend further
>westward into the pre-Islamic middle east during it's
>spread?
>
>Is there signifigant evidence of tolerance of Buddhism
>in in pre-modern Islam, and if so, what are typical
>cross-cultural influences (I think someone mentioned
>philosophical influences a while ago, but I don't
>recall the specifics)? Were any influences from the
>east more evident in the "learned" classes and/or
>traders in Islamic society?
>
>Thanks,
>
>EP
>(PierceED@csus.ed)
>
Hello:
Here is two cents worth of history.
Buddhism travelled from India to southeast Asia and East asia about
250 years after Buddha mostly through the efforts of the emperor Ashoka
(circa 300 BC); Muslim invasion of India started with Md. Ganzi in 10 or
11the century when he invaded northern India nearly 20 times and looted
most of the wealth in temples; coming down from Afganistan he came as far
down as the present day Delhi. The real cross cultural influence between
Muslims and Hindus was glorious during the days of Moghul Empire, in
particular during the days of Akbar (the third Moghul emperor) wherein
he practiced openely took in many hindu prinessees for his many wives
and practiced consulation with rajput hindus.
In the early muslim invasion days, most of the muslims were sunnis;
shitite influence became important only after 15th century or so when there was
imperial relations between Persia and India through the royalty of both
countries.
Hinduism particularly from souther India was very a dominant influence
in what is now Thialand, Malaysia, Vietnam, Cambidia etc from about 1000 AD;
history books from Thailand will give you ample insight - the Vijaya empire was
an important influence for several centuries. Even today the royalty of
Thailand is considered a reincarnation of Rama, the mythological King about
whom a major epic was written in India and is constantly worshipped by Hindus
of all persuations as a major force in the development of Hindu culture.
The Buddhists and hindus lived in tolerance in southeast asia until almost the
15th century; this is when muslims began organizing a little better and gained
political strength to challenge their masters. Muslim migration to this region
took place very gradually over 2-300 years looking primarily for food.
Muslims and buddhists did not meet in India as the muslim routes to
isolated them
from India; by this time buddhism in India was very weak any way as most of the
royalty were hindus and buddhism and jainism had little support except in
small pockets.
Buddhists had major contributions to culture and learning by establishing
universities
at Nalanda almost 2000 years ago; some of this organization may have rubbed off
onto Islam in a small form. There were several other aspects of lack of
communication between the two groups - language was a real barrier; most
buddhist
literature was in Pali unknown to muslims.
This is my quick reaction; more later.
Thanks
Megha Shyam
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Thu, 25 Jan 96 17:56:57 PST
Subject: Re: Re sex and values
To: belove@sover.net, Donald Zhang Osborn ,
748-9178@mcimail.com, Joseph Cincotta
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
On Thu, 25 Jan 1996 10:56:09 -0500 (EST) Donald Zhang Osborn wrote:
>Philip, Allah'u'Abha! I too was surprised at your appraisal of
Jackson
>When people who speak different languages meet, they try to find a
common
>language. When several people speaking different languages come
together
>they may not have a single common language, so some people may have
to
>translate--people switch back and forth between languages and
thoughts are
>communicated (a cumbersome but workable situation). Ultimately a
common
>lingua franca facilitates interaction and reduces uncertainty in
such
>communication.
>
>When different behavioral customs come into contact, I think that
the
>situation is more complex. What are the common codes of conduct
that can
>apply to members of two different cultures coming into contact?
Should one
>or the other set of customs be adopted or should they be blended (?
and
>how?). When several cultures come together, the situation would
seem
>unmanageable--and there is nothing analagous to a lingua franca to
be found
>in the area of customs ... unless one considers world religions...
(though
>I wouldn't carry the language metaphor too far).
You and Linda make this same point. I'm starting to feel that my
first response to the issue was a bit naive and now I'm thinking your
are right. There is some need for a common set of values.
Actually, I think that there is a kind of common sense of Justice in
the world. Even though there is no World Governing Body there is
something in the realm of justice that unites us all. So maybe also
in the area of sexual behavior?
I'm still thinking about Jackson's idea that some how sexual behavior
becomes the test of all other areas of ethical behavior.
I also think about the Ten Commandments as a kind of universal
ethical code. Or the golden rule.
And I do agree with Terry that there is a universal mono-myth telling
the story of human spiritual development. And I believe in
arche-types.
So my position vis a vis a code of sexual mores isn't so clear. I
think there is a difference between sexual ethics and sexual mores.
Maybe the nuance I'm looking for lies there.
I go back to the quote of what I said earlier, as you included it :
>
>> So I asked myself this question:, If the Bahai way to regulate is
>> sexuality is seen as The One and Only Right Way, then does that
mean
>> whole cultures are morally wrong?
I have been able to accept the truth of the Bahai claim to being the
unifying religion because of my prior convictions about there really
being universal human archetypes, universal human themes, universal
human ethical values. And I also suspected these were a divine gift,
if you will. So for Baha'ullah to claim He is the Voice of this
Gifting Divinity, I could accept this.
But my comfort level radically falls away when I get to the
prohibitions on homosexual behavior. Because that behavior seems to
me to carry the possibility of being highly ethical.
And Jackson's interesting anthropological survey significantly
broadened my view of the variety of high ethical sexual behaviors.
How can a behavior be ethical yet morally wrong?
That is where I get stuck.
And for a teaching to say, it may be ethical , but you still can't do
it... such a teaching verges on imperialism and I become
uncomfortable. As you re-read the rest of my argument, I think you
can see me struggling with those issues.
And if that is indeed the
>> conclusion, then does that mean that for Bahai to be the unifying
>> world religion, all the cultures of the world will have to accept
the
>> Bahai rules for sexual conduct? And how is this different from
the
>> kind of Christianity that has changed so many Native Cultures?
What
>> is the nature of this Unity we are bringing?
>
Now back to you, Don:
>It is true that stronger societies have often imposed their systems
on
>weaker ones, and that they have often done so in the name of
religion.
>Yet it is also true that religions (esp. in their earlier stages)
have
>united peoples with diverse beliefs and customs, giving them a
common
>spiritual frame of reference and sets of guidelines (including some
>laws) for social interaction. I don't see this so much as saying
that
>other (preceding) laws and customs are "morally wrong" as saying
that
>the time for some/many of those social customs is past/passing.
This distinction between "morally wrong" and "no longer adequate"
could possibly solve my dilemma. So I have to think more about that.
>
>In the contemporary context, I would argue that the coming together
of
>world cultures means that some behavioral codes (e.g. in the area of
>sexuality) will become unsustainable, regardless. Can very
divergent
>behavioral codes coexist for long in ever closer contact (note that
I am
>referring to rules for social behavior, not aesthetics, traditional
>customs, etc.)? The question then becomes what will help the
diverse &
>unifying cultures of the world to achieve social peace, material
progress,
>and spiritual growth?
This is a fascinating point.
Laws regarding "sexuality," that powerful impulse
>that has become such a preoccupation in the commercialized West, are
>only a small (but integral) part of the larger problem. Baha'i
teachings
>as a whole provide a framework for peoples of the world to come
together
>on a more equal footing than previously possible to build an "ever
>advancing" world civilization.
>
>As old certainties evaporate in the face of rapid global change,
there
>are no firm moral standards. In effect, many cultures (even long
>dominant ones) seem to have lost their bearings, as if their moral
>compasses no longer find their "north" (whatever that used to be).
>I see the Baha'i teachings as providing a common "north" for diverse
>cultures as the world becomes more united, definitely not as a way
to
>put down cultures.
I have never thought of this aspect of the faith, that as the world
unifies and old certainties evaporate in the face of rapid global
change, there is a need for clear moral standards.
This is a very interesting argument to me, because, if we are
offering clarity to a community is transition and disruption, with
that clarity comes a demand for an incredibly high level of kindness,
loving support, positive regard, humility, and above all, certainly,
a tolerance for crankiness.
(Is there a better word than "crankiness"? to describe the sort of
bitching and moaning and confusion and nostalgia de bou and distrust
that is bound to come forward at this point in a transition?)
The Baha'i faith is most certainly not being
>propogated by a dominant culture as a tool of subjugation; it rather
>(in my opinion) is the surest means by which the "last" can finally
>become "first." And if a catalogue of different sexual practices
>disappears (note I did not say "is suppressed") in the process of
its
>spread, is anyone really worse off?
>
> Don Osborn osborndo@pilot.msu.edu
Thanks Don, that was great.
Love
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/25/96
Time: 17:56:57
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"