Talisman Bahai Archives Jan. 18-21, 1996
Jan 18-21, 1996
Talisman emails received 1/18/96
---------------------------------------------------------
From: Rick Schaut
To: "Talisman@indiana.edu" ,
jwalbrid
Subject: RE: International House of Pancakes
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 14:02:39 -0800
I can further attest that some pious persons prefer to
travel a bit further down Green Bay Rd to eat at the
Original (Orthodox?) House of Pancakes. One
might be inclined to chalk this up to questionable
loyalties, but, having eaten at both establishments
myself, I can honestly say that the Wilmette IHOP
doesn't hold a candle to the OHOP
Rick
----------
From: jwalbrid[SMTP:jwalbrid@indiana.edu]
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 1996 5:29 AM
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: International House of Pancakes
I can attest that pious Baha'i national committee members and national
center staff people have been eating in the Wilmette International House
of Pancakes for at least the last generation. I would have said that
this represented excessive devotion to the covenant, except that having
eaten there myself, I can attest that their pancakes (and my personal
favorite, deep-fried French toast) really are excellent).
john walbridge
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 17:43:47 PST8PDT
Subject: Re: ... Re: Mujtahids - oh no, not "lay Baha'is" and cons
Greetings,
I am tired, so forgive me for breaching netiquette by posting
a reply to a private message. Hopefully the rudeness of this
act will be somewhat offset by a clearing of the air about the
apparent discomfort of our new member, brother Richard.
On a side topic, has anyone else had technical problems with
some of Richard's recent messages? On my software, a few of them
have had the ends of paragraphs cut off in mid sentence after
three or four lines.
Anyway, Richard:
re:
> Date sent: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 23:49:55 -0600 (CST)
> Subject: Re: Re: Mujtahids - oh no, not "lay Baha'is" and
conscien
> From: "Richard C. Logan"
> To: "Eric D. Pierce"
> >There were extensive and exquisitely torturous arguments
> >over this stuff just a little while ago (December 1995?).
> >Allow me to offer you the opportunity to partake of yet another
> >compilation of previous talisman messages on these topics. It
> >will take a while for me to pull it together from the archives
> >I have collected.
>
>
> Dear Ed,
>
> ...
>
> The subtext of your message is:
>
> If only poor Richard was privy to these previous discussions.
> This assumes that I can't reason independently without them, or at least
> that's my take.
Your take was wrong. I was trying to tell you that a massive shit
storm was probably about to hit you in the face, so you might want
to hide behind a rock for a while until it passes. There were a
series of interminable arguments on talisman on these topics on and
off during the fall and early winter. I personally found the
problematic discussions to mainly be despiriting.
Things finally settled into a more productive and respectful
pattern during and after the holidays, and I for one found the
line you were pursuing to be similar to the fall/winter
arguments, or at least capable of triggering same if people over
reacted to some of the stuff you were bringing up.
Most everyone goes through a hazing ritual of some kind if they
want to really "hang" on talisman, I hope that you will accept
my best wishes as a new member, but I was merely suggesting that
if you wanted to review previous discussions, you might find the
information in them of some value, and the resources of the
members that would be otherwise utilized in bringing you up to
speed could be utilized in new areas of discussion. However, if
you want to stand in the shit storm and maybe even fling some of
it back, by all means go for it.
> Everything I've encountered on Talisman so far, I've run into years ago
> on University campus'.
I don't know what campus you were at or what it was you encountered
there that is similar to "everything" on talisman, but I personally
find talisman to be a very unique and valuable experience, perhaps
the beginning of the kind of emerging/evolving global muticultural
mind/heart that the Faith is supposed to be about.
> You guys didn't invent this stuff. It's this assumption that I just fell
> off a cabbage truck that I find so tiresome. I wish I was being
> enlightened here on issues of interest. So far, for me, its the
> interaction with intelligent, dedicated Baha'is that I value. I'm an
> intellectual from way back--but I've learned a thing or two since then.
Not sure why you are referring to "you guys". I'm a lowly technician,
not an intellectual by any means. I spent a number of years working
on ranches, in lumber mills and log camps, and in various factories
before getting into the computer world as a "career". I have lots of
negative emotional baggage from my interaction with the Baha'i
community due to my own personal experiences coming out of a "70s"
nonconformist mindset. I was coerced into signing a declaration card
as a wanna be hippy teenager, then it was made clear that I was
expected to conform to the ways of the Baha'i royalty and
administrative elites and go along with their conspiracies of silence,
kitab-i-hearsay and such, or get out (I did for about 5 years). I am
not interested in the standard americanized Baha'i platitudes and
brainwashing. I have a great deal of respect for the "dissident"
elements and aspects of the Baha'i academic/intellectual elite, but
don't agree with everything that has been or is being done by them.
But *so what*, we need to learn to tolerate experimentation and
innovation, and the more the merrier.
I also have a great deal of respect for many things in the
"mainstream" community, but I really don't feel completely part of
it all the time. I take responsibility for dealing with that for
myself, and have tried to understand what the dynamics of the
relationships in the community are. Some people aren't comfortable
with such explorations, and I try to ignore those folk unless they
try to launch investigations against me, or failing that, start ugly
rumors about how I'm somehow part of the "nefarious conspiracy" that
is undermining the Faith, or shout me out of Feast when I try to
point out the downside of the ill-informed egotism that controls
the community, or grab and shake me by the neck at a public outdoor
meeting when I suggest that maybe there is no real historical basis
for the idea that Abdu'l-Baha sat and prayed under a particular
supposedly near-holy tree in Capitol Park when he was in Sacramento.
So, maybe now you will see that the type of tolerance that the
talisman cyber-subculture seems to partly be about is not something
that I would expect to find on every street corner.
...snip
>
> This tendancy to pigeon hole people when they hold differing views is
> reprehensible. I believe you to be a scincere person so I have spoken to
> you straight from the heart and try and explain myself because maybe you
> haven't met a person of such peculiar elements before.
I've know plenty of peculiar folks of various kinds, some I think
I may have partly understood and maybe even loved, some not.
The only thing we know in cyberspace is what you write. If you
don't realize how the things that you write will be impressed on
readers, then *you* have to take responsibility for the confusion,
don't flip the shit back on me or anyone else.
> I feel it
> unfortunate to have to defend one's intellectual credentials and
> demeaning but I feel what's the point of having an ego in these things.
The only credentials I personally care about is the "sensibility"
of the discussion, and the description of the honest feeling,
thoughts and experiences that shape the way diverse people express
themselves.
>
> You probably wondered about my remarks in the post you replied to. So I
> will explain them. I feel the Baha'i Faith is an important enough
> proposition that I engage others in it "authentically". That is: with
> my full being. It may have rough edges, but what can I say.
Fine, but please take responsibility for any resulting confusion.
>
> I don't know if this clears anything up--but give me a little credit will
> you Ed
As far as I'm concerned, you are perfectly free to do what you want,
the value of anyone's messages to this forum rises or falls on the
merit of the content of the messages, and how the content contributes
to the needs of the group.
>
> Richard
>
In previous situations, people have noted that this group is like
a discussion in the "virtual" living room at the Walbridge residence.
If you want to barge through the door, track mud all over the carpet,
help yourself to the refreshments and snacks, put your greasy
laundry in the washing machine, sit around and belch or break wind
during consultation, and sneer at some of the honored guests, then
don't be surprised when you get the occasional cold eyeball.
We seem to be making some progress in developing a sense of how
to consult with this new internet media, and I would obviously be
the last one to suggest that venting is not appropriate.
Feel free to remind me to NOT try to figure out for everyone else
what the heck you are talking about.
Let me know if I can be of further service,
EP (Eric D. Pierce)
ps, if you get into this neck of the woods, come by for some
finger lickin good bar-b-q. We can sit around the yard and
smoke cigars, sip near-beer, snack on raw sweet corn and green
beans out of the garden, and belch and fart all we want, but my
wife probably won't tolerate tracking mud into the house or
putting greasy laundry in the washing machine.
=END=
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 17:40:59 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: natural impulses & "the subject of boys"
Dear Friends:
The following post contains language which may be offensive to some
readers. Viewer discretion is advised.
In Juan Cole's January 17 posting he explained the passage in the
Aqdas - "We shrink, for very shame, from treating the subject of boys." I
appreciated this information and, as Dr. Cole has more than adequately
demonstrated his knowledge of and expertise in the language of Baha'u'llah,
and the historical and social context in which the Baha'i Revelation
appeared, I do not dispute it.
However, I do question his statement - "You continue to make a
conceptual leap in identifying this practice of a slavemaster sleeping with
his boy slave with contemporary same-sex marriage, which is an illegitimate
semantic leap." My understanding is that this "conceptual leap" was made by
the Guardian. If it were not for the notes to the Aqdas, dealing with this
passage, I would not have the foggiest notion what the intent of this
passage was. I also feel strongly that this particular phrase of the
Aqdas must be considered in the larger context of the Baha'i teachings on
marriage and chastity.
I would also question (not deny) the validity of Juan's claim that
"There are probably on the order of 120 million gays in the world (and many
more if we count everyone who has engaged in same-sex intimacy), which would
make a country the size of Japan"
In the first place, Juan's obvious expertise in his own field of
study does not necessarily lend credence to statements made concerning
matters outside of that field. This isn't anti-intellectualism. I wouldn't
consult a nuclear physicist, historian or for that matter a brain surgeon
on matters of human sexuality. Where does this 120 million figure come from
- seems rather speculative and arbitrary to me.
Secondly, to catagorize "everyone who has engaged in same-sex
intimacy" as "gay" seems to not only overlook a very conspicuous stage of
male sexual development, but is also rather insulting to the gay community.
To catagorize the type of intimate sexual activity of pedophiles, prisoners,
etc. (or, for that matter, the curious antics of early adolescent boys)
with "monogamous intimate relationships between two adult same sex partners
does something of an injustice to the cause of the later.
Perhaps, Juan, I misunderstand the phrase "same-sex intimacy". I
have "intimate" relationships with a number of males but this does not
involve intimate sexual relations although it does often involve physical
contact. On one occasion I raised the eyebrows of some Baha'i friends at a
picnic, by stolling along, hand in hand with a very dear friend of mine from
Africa. In his culture it was not deemed inappropriate behavior and in that
particular instance it did not seem inappropriate to me. Others viewed it
differently and I was cautioned about "appearances". Hogwash!
I think many of us have a very different understanding of what "intimacy" is
and aint.
Generally, I attempt to avoid being drawn into discussions on
homosexuality as it is a very complex, polarized, emotional, opinionated and
seemingly irresolvable issue of which I have very little understanding. I
also have friends who identify themselves as gay or lesbian who I admire and
respect, and who have, on several occasions, made inquiries about the Faith
and the Baha'i attitude toward homosexuality. Until recently such questions
have usually provoked me to indulge in some rather artful circumlocution.
Now, I am a bit more direct and honest.
I do not buy the argument that, because homosexuality is a "natural
proclivity" rather than an aquired taste it is therefore acceptable.
In the movie "The Crying Game", the kidnapped British soldier,
played by Forrest Whitaker, tells his I.R.A. captor, Fergus, "you will
kill me". Fergus asks, How can you be sure? Whitaker says "because it's
in your nature" and proceeds to tell the story of the scorpion and the frog.
The frog refuses to take the scorpion across the water on it's back unill
the scorpion convinces him that he won't kill him. Half way across, the
scorpion stings the frog. When the frog asks why the scorpion would pull
such a stunt, knowing that it would bring an end to them both, the scorpion
replies "I couldn't help it. It's in my nature". Fergus makes friends
with the hostage, fate intervenes and Fergus doesn't have to knock him off.
Whitaker get's squashed by a British tank during a raid on the I.R.A. enclave.
The guilt ridden Fergus goes to England to look up the soldiers girlfriend,
becomes attracted to her, discovers that alas the lass is a laddie,
becomes quite unattracted, then develops an interesting, one might say
loving, but non-sexual relationship. He/she says "I can't help what I am".
(it's in his/her nature). As it turns out, It is not in Fergus's nature to
be a terrorist or murder and he ends up taking the wrap for the a murder to
save his friend - probably realizing the problems he/she would have in
prison, and at the end of the story, when he/she asks Fergus why he took
the wrap, he repeats the story about frog and the scorpion.
What's the point? Do we behave according to "our nature" even if it is "in
our nature" to do "unnatural" things?
This whole business of natural proclivities has me dumbfounded. On the one
hand, I hear homosexuals argue that their sexual orientation is natural and
innate, and cannot be described as being "against nature". I can accept
that much of the argument. On the other hand, I am told that what I am
equally convinced is a "natural revulsion" on my part for homosexual acts,
is unnatural; - a socialized condition imposed upon me by a patriarachal,
homophobic and misogynist society. I cannot buy that argument.
I have, like most people, certain natural tendencies which deter me
from behaving in a manner destructive to myself or others. Similarly I have
natural tendencies which I must suppress in order to avoid damaging myself
or others. The Faith helps me to suppress the later.
If we simply did what it is "in our nature to do" there would be no need
for the Revelation of Baha'u'llah. Human nature isn't static. It can either
evolve and be fine tuned through divine revelation, spiritual disclipine,
and education or it can degenerate by our succumbing to it's every whim.
I am not not equating homosexuality with psychopathic behavior, but
there is as much scientific evidence to suggest that psychopathy is
genetically and biologically determined. Modern science has not found a cure
for it. Even Abdu'l Baha, in one of his tablets, speaks of a "sense of
shame" (conscience) which "some do not posess". If one does not posess a
"sense of shame", or "conscience" it is not "in their nature" to be detered
from commiting acts of unnatural cruelty. This does not justify or
legitimize the psycopaths behavior. Laws are needed for such people.
Man, am I treading on thin ice! I'd better skiidaddle outa here.
LBG's
Gord.
---
Gordon McFarlane e-mail: MCFARLANE@upanet.uleth.ca
919 11th Sreet South
Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada
T1J2P7
(403)327-2987
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 15:38:17 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: SDC 15: "Seek after knowledge, even unto China..."
Talismans,
Among the well-off and the well-educated there is a marked
universality. Oil-rich Kuwaitis interviewed during the Gulf War sounded
like Californians; Japanese businessmen look rather like my Irish
father...(when he was alive!!)...
In contrast all this stuff that's going down in Russia, or Yugoslavia or
Africa or in western ghettos seems particularly peculiar... poor and
uneducated strangers killing one another...
In the following passage 'Abdu'l-Baha justifies the sharing of knowledge
relating "to the temporal and material apparatus of civilization..". I
must say that I am always filled with admiration when I learn of someone
taking useful technology (etc) to the poor and under-developed...
Robert.
SDC 15
As to those who maintain that the inauguration of reforms and
the setting up of powerful institutions would in reality be at variance
with the good pleasure of God and would contravene the laws of the Divine
Law-Giver and run counter to basic religious principles and to the ways of
the Prophet-- let them consider how this could be the case. Would such
reforms contravene the religious law because they would be acquired from
foreigners and would therefore cause us to be as they are, since "He who
imitates a people is one of them"? In the first place these matters
relate to the temporal and material apparatus of civilization, the
implements of science, the adjuncts of progress in the professions and the
arts, and the orderly +P26 conduct of government. They have nothing
whatever to do with the problems of the spirit and the complex realities
of religious doctrine. If it be objected that even where material affairs
are concerned foreign importations are inadmissible, such an argument
would only establish the ignorance and absurdity of its proponents. Have
they forgotten the celebrated hadith (Holy Tradition): "Seek after
knowledge, even unto China"? It is certain that the people of China were,
in the sight of God, among the most rejected of men, because they
worshiped idols and were unmindful of the omniscient Lord. The Europeans
are at least "Peoples of the Book," and believers in God and specifically
referred to in the sacred verse, "Thou shalt certainly find those to be
nearest in affection to the believers, who say, `We are Christians.'"[
Qur'an 5:85.] It is therefore quite permissible and indeed more
appropriate to acquire knowledge from Christian countries. How could
seeking after knowledge among the heathen be acceptable to God, and
seeking it among the People of the Book be repugnant to Him?
Furthermore, in the Battle of the Confederates, Abu Sufyan enlisted the
aid of the Bani Kinanih, the Bani Qahtan and the Jewish Bani Qurayzih
and rose up with all the tribes of the Quraysh to put out the Divine
Light that flamed in the lamp of Yathrib (Medina). In those days the
great winds of trials and tribulations were blowing from every direction,
as it is written: "Do +P27 men think when they say `We believe' they
shall be let alone and not be put to proof?" [Qur'an 29:2.] The believers
were few and the enemy attacking in force, seeking to blot out the
new-risen Sun of Truth with the dust of oppression and tyranny. Then
Salman (the Persian) came into the presence of the Prophet--the
Dawning-Point of revelation, the Focus of the endless splendors of
grace--and he said that in Persia to protect themselves from an
encroaching host they would dig a moat or trench about their lands, and
that this had proved a highly efficient safeguard against surprise
attacks. Did that Wellspring of universal wisdom, that Mine of divine
knowledge say in reply that this was a custom current among idolatrous,
fire-worshiping Magians and could therefore hardly be adopted by
monotheists? Or did He rather immediately direct His followers to set
about digging a trench? He even, in His Own blessed person, took hold of
the tools and went to work beside them.
=END=
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 19:57:32 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Flat Tax
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Saman Ahmadi" ,
"Talisman"
Did you see the formal debate on a special edition of PBS 's Firing Line.
Facinating Jerry Brown and W.F. Buckley on the same side! Miracle of
Miracles!
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 20:49:57 -0500 (EST)
From: George Gary
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Anti-Intellectualism . . . Let's knock it off
Just a thought on consultation versus "the mere voicing of personal views"
I don't think there is so much Anti-Intellectualism as differing views
being expressed without sufficient effort made to add points to the
table for consideration as "There is still another aspect to our faith
and unity" voiced by one of the apostles in the example Abdu'l-Baha gave
in the end of the talk quoted from below From PUP p. 72.
"In this Cause consultation is of vital importance, but spiritual
conference and not the mere voicing of personal views is intended. In
France I was present at a session of the senate, but the experience was
not impressive. Parliamentary procedure should have for its object the
attainment of the light of truth upon questions presented and not furnish
a battleground for opposition and selfopinion. Antagonism and
contradiction are unfortunate and always destructive to truth. In the
parliamentary meeting mentioned, altercation and useless quibbling were
frequent; the result, mostly confusion and turmoil; even in one instance
a physical encounter took place between two members. It was not
consultation but comedy."
"The purpose is to emphasize the statement that consultation must have for
its object the investigtion of truth. He who expresses an opinion should
not voice it as correct and right but set it forth as a contribution to
the consensus of opinion, for the light of reality becomes apparent when
two opinions coincide...."
"Opposition and division are deplorable. It is better then to have the
opinion of a wise, sagacious man; otherwise, contradiction and
altercation, in which varied and divergent views are presented, will make
it necessary for a judicial body to render decision upon the question. Even
a majority opinion or consensus may be incorrect. A thousand people may
hold to one view and be mistaken, whereas one sagacious person may be right.
Therefor, true consultation is spiritual conference in the attitude and
atmosphere of love. members must love each other in the spirit of
fellowship in order that good results may be forthcoming. Love and
fellowship are the foundation."
Also we might note that none of us are in a position to judge one another
as stated in the letter written to the NSA of Canada (Nov 4, 1948) on
behalf of the Guardian (Messages to Canada p. 8.)
"Avoid Blanket Rulings"
"Our teachings, as outlined in the Advent of Divine Justice, on the
subject of living a chaste life, should be emphasized, but certainly no
ruling what-so-ever should be laid down in this matter. The Baha'is have
certainly not yet reached that stage of moral perfection where they are
in a positioni to too harshly scrutinize the private lives of other
souls, and each individual should be accepted on the basis of his faith,
and sincere willingness to try to live up to the Divine Standards;
further than this we cannot go at present."
Understatement!!!!!
=END=
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 18:01:44 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Contact Broken,
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismanians .
Due to falling trees ,no doubt pulled over by Linda's Wild Shi'ite
Women dressed in Black and White Lace Ninja outfits , we have had no
telephones lines for 36 hours . If anybody was trying to get in touch
with me and the message was bounced back would you please resend .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
So Linda did you miss me?
=END=
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 21:22:37 -0500 (EST)
From: George Gary
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Flat Tax
PUP p. 217
"That is to say, a man's capacity for production and his needs will be
equalized and reconciled through taxation. If his production exceeds, he
will pay a tax; if his necessities exceed his production, he shall
receive an amount sufficient to equalize or adjust. Therefore, taxation
will be proportionate to capacity and production, and there will be no
poor in the community."
"Baha'u'llah, likewise, commanded the rich to give freely to the poor.
In the Kitab-i-Aqdas it is further written by Him that those who have a
certain amount of income must give one-fifth of it to God, the Creator of
heaven and earth."
There appear to be four cases:
1. tax proportionate to the production if it exceeds needs
2. negative tax for those whos need exceeds production
3. command to the rich to give freely to the poor
4. Huquq'u'llah
=END=
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 96 19:24:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: punishment for homosexuality
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
I really do not wish to discuss this subject out of the fear that
there is already too much hurt feelings, but I can't help
disagreeing with the statements that Baha'u'llah has not ordain
punishment for homosexuality. As I recall, about 8 months ago
when we first discussed this, I shared a Tablet of Baha'u'llah
quoted in the Ganjinih Hudud va Ahkam (the treasury of laws and
ordinances) by Ishraq-Khavari. An authoritative translation of
this Tablet is now provided by the House of Justice in their Sept
11, 95 statement:
Ye are forbidden to commit adultery, sodomy and lechery....
He who relateth himself to the All-Merciful and committeth
satanic deeds, verily he is not of Me.
I'm of the view that this statement could be the basis for future
legislations by the House of Justice on the subject of
homosexuality, as well as adultery and treason. Of the latter
two, He specified punishments in the Kitab-i Aqdas, but for
"lavat" (translated technically as sodomy, though extends to all
homosexual acts), I believe this passage can provide the House of
Justice with basis for a whole range of punishments including
dismissal from the community ("he is not of Me"!)
Note that clearly the House of Justice presently has not
legislated on this matter and I'm not advocating it either, but
those that say there is no punishment outlined by Baha'u'llah for
homosexuality may wish to consider this Tablet.
regards, ahang
=END=
From: l.droege@genie.geis.com
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 96 02:11:00 UTC 0000
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: flat tax
I was wondering when someone was going to bring up the flat tax.
No. It's nothing at all like Huquq'u'llah. With Huquq, you take the
amount _after_ expenses, and pay a percentage. With the flat tax (as
proposed so far), you subtract a standard amount from your income per
person (say, $5000 if you're single, another $5000 for your spouse if
you have one, another $5000 for your child), then you pay 17% (or
another percentage) of _everything else you earned_. "Unearned" income
doesn't count, so if you have lots of stock or other investments, you
pay nothing on that. Therefore the flat tax is great if you're a rich
investor, but really stinks if you're poor and work.
Leigh
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 19:12:12 PST8PDT
Subject: Re: Flat Tax-hypocrisy of reformers/big depression by 2002?
Greetings Blessed Ones,
The existing corrupt federal tax structure is part of a system
that allows the people in congress to maintain a great deal of
power by granting preferential exemptions and deals to special
interest groups that support the political campaign machinery
of the two major parties.
A flat tax apparently would strip away a lot of that power and
would require the politicians to quit whoring themselves out
quite so vigorously and actually focus on best serving the
needs of the country by ensuring the security and prosperity
of the people.
You can clearly see the blatant hypocrisy (not to mention
the short sightedness) of both democratic and republican
"reformers" when the proponents of such tax reforms are roundly
denounced via soundbite by such "reformers".
I find the idea of abolishing income tax (and the IRS!) and
implementing a flat CONSUMPTION tax particularly interesting,
especially since we are now starting to hear warnings that a
*massive economic depression* may set in by 2002 when shifting
age demographics destabilize the consumer economy. Most of
the older people will be getting thrifty as retirement
approaches, and most of the young people will not have hit the
(delayed) beginning of the peak earning years, so lavish
consumer spending will signifigantly drop off from what it is
now.
Having lived in a severly economically depressed rural western
area of the US about 15 years ago, let me tell you that it is
not fun. People start realizing how truly shallow their
emotional dependencies on conspicuous consumption and
materialism have made them, and things can get ugly after that.
More "mental tests" to get ready for?
EP
> Date sent: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 18:38:38 -0600 (CST)
> From: Saman Ahmadi
> To: talisman
> Subject: Flat Tax
>
> Dear Friends,
>
> Here in the U.S. there is much ado about a proposed flat tax
> to replace the various federal tax rates based on income.
>
> The idea sounds a bit like Huqquq'u'llah - some amount of
> exemption under which no tax is paid and income is only taxed
> once.
>
> It sounds interesting, any thoughts?
>
> regards,
> sAmAn
>
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 16:16:19 -0900
To: Juan R Cole , Talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Arabic, knowledge, elitism
Juan wrote:
>I'd be glad to have reactions to my vision of a community that a) has an
>option for the poor, b) is imbued with a strong sense of egalitarianism,
>c) eschews status differentials based on knowledge or wealth, *but* d)
>encourages the acquisition of specialized expertise on the part of some
>of its members, as a form of *service* that can be drawn upon and used,
>gratefully, by all.
Fair enough, I suppose. Trouble always arises when it comes to recognising
talent, and to giving each their due. Too many people are thieves (as
Confucius said). They ask questions and then argue when the answer is
given, or walk away with the answer without giving thanks, not realising
that their very asking is an admission of neediness and "poverty", and an
occasion for humility and gratitude. This is a very deep and not a trivial
matter... In essence, it is like praying to God then quarrelling with the
House or idly disputing the status of the Guardian.
Robert.
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 96 13:01:01 PST
Subject: RE: Fat lady.
To: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl, talisman@indiana.edu
On Wed, 17 Jan 1996 14:56:19 +0100 (MET) Sen.Mcglinn@RL.RULIMBURG.NL
wrote:
fat lady?
So. The fat lady. There is an american joke: "It ain't over till the
Fat Lady sings."
A pretentious, upwardly striving mother takes her little boy to the
opera to get him some "culture."She doesn't particularly like opera,
but she wants her little boy to like it. The little boy hates it and
keeps begging to leave. "We're not leaving until it's over." Little
boy says, "When is it over." Mother: "It's not over until the fat
lady sings."
Any one have a different story?
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/17/96
Time: 13:01:01
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 96 13:00:37 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg"
To: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu, friberb@will.brl.ntt.jp
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: some thoughts
Dear Linda:
It has been a long time since we have had a argument. Shall we
rectify this deplorable situation? I'll save my comments about
evolution as satisfying the need for mythical answers for later,
as I am afraid that you might agree with them. That would be no
fun at all, would it?
You say:
> Alas, instead of a universalistic and inclusive approach I see one
> that has become so narrow and rigid. Nothing can change. Everything
> has to stay exactly the way it was when Shoghi Effendi was alive.
> We haven't moved out of that mode at all. Yet, the world around us has
> changed monumentally.
Isn't this more revealing about your own way of thinking and the
rut that many American's have fallen into, than a reasonable response
to the tremendous changes that have taken place?
Think of it: once, the American Baha'is were so beloved by Ab'dul Baha
and Shoghi Effendi that they were the center of the Baha'i world, not
to mention the administrative order. Now, nearly 40 years after
Shoghi Effendi's passing, the American Baha'i community is only one,
and a small shrinking one at that, of the world's Baha'i communities,
many of which are much more dynamic and much more active.
Yet still, many American Baha'is demand that their peculiar
formulations of how things should be, derived from their peculiar
circumstance of great personal wealth uncoupled from responsibilities
to either family or society (have you noticed how many big, profitable
companies are jettisoning so many of their employees lately) are the
standard by which to judge the tremendous growth of the Baha'i Faith
and the successes of the Baha'i World Center.
It's certainly as if the Americans simply refuse to notice how things
have changed, and still believe as if Haifa should jump when they
call! And certainly, American Baha'i scholars buy into this. Being
more articulate than normal folks, and sometimes rather bold, they
act sometimes as leaders in this yelp of nostalgia for American power,
Baha'i spiritual variety.
> This business of bashing Baha'i scholars and refusing to accept their
> status as experts seems to be a case in point. Because there were
> no Western trained Baha'i scholars (in the sense of a Baha'i
> studying the faith in a scholarly manner using Western methodology),
> we don't know if these individuals are even acceptable in the Baha'i
> Faith. Best to shunt them aside, marginalize them, drive them out.
> We don't know what Shoghi Effendi would have said about them,
> so we can't deal with them. Yet, we will allow others to be considered
> "experts" in the Faith. These are people who have risen within the
> establishment. They are not particularly learned. They will tell
> you pretty much the same things that you have been hearing for the
> past 30 years, but, as they pose no threat at all to the status quo
> (i.e., they don't challenge our thinking or ways of approaching the
> world at all), they can be lionized and considered experts.
I think, Linda, that you seriously misunderstand American culture. It
is successful businessmen, not intellectuals, who are admired. They
are the ones who have the record for getting things done, be it for
good or for worse. If all the intellectuals do is whine about how
nobody is listening to them, how do you think that it is going to help
things?
Now, when American society is going through profound changes, the
businessman and lawyers are no longer so trusted. You would think
that the intellectuals might have a chance. But, tell me, what are
they offering that people might want? Do you really think that the
Baha'i community is eagerly waiting to be told for the umpteenth time
that homosexuality is good for them? Yet, that level of borrowing from
the more confined provincial levels of American academic thinking,
thought by its proponents to be THE source of significant universal
truths, is, so far, what appears to most of the people outside of
Talisman to be our distinguishing characteristic. That, and a lust
for power.
How might this situation change? Clearly, those of us who love
discussion, discourse, (or whatever you want to call it) see Talisman
as an example of one way for change to happen: we start freely talking
to each other. We develop our arguments freely. We don't avoid
controversial issues. Its messy, but it works. We can learn
tremendously.
So, I say, we are developing something that is true to Baha'i
principles that allows different views from differing viewpoints
to be aired. Surely, your viewpoint of the whole rest of the world
except for certain western Baha'i intellectuals in certain academic
disciplines as being moribund and stuck is one such view that should
be aired. But, do you really believe this?
Anyway, these are my opening shots. I am eagerly awaiting your
returning volleys.
With love,
Steve F.
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 96 03:32:07 UT
From: "Hannah Elaina Reinstein"
To: "Burl Barer"
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: sociobiology
In the western part of our state, where the entire culture centers around
coffee and lattes, we refer to a cow who has just given birth as
decaffeinated.
Just thought you'd like to know :-)
----------
From: owner-talisman@indiana.edu on behalf of Burl Barer
Sent: Thursday, 11 January, 1996 21:15 PM
To: Juan R Cole
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: sociobiology
Juan said:>
>
>>Sociobiology contains the danger that the poor will be said to be poor
>because of defective genes. The incarcerated will be said to be criminal
>because of defective genes. Women will be said to be less competent
>because of defective genes. You get the picture.
Burl says:
Yes, and it sounds like reincarnation justification --
the poor are poor because of past lives, etc. -- with a new name.
Where I come from, reincarnation is milk from dead cows.
BB
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 04:43:54 +0000 (GMT)
From: Shamim Razavi
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: miscellaneous
I notice you do not
> >reply to my point that Baha'u'llah suggests no punishment for this or any
> >other practice that we would now call homosexuality, nor suggests that
> >there should be one.
Baha'u'llah also does not, as far as I know, suggest any punishment for
backbiting but condemns it as worse than murder. Baha'i institutions
however can and do, rightly, impose sanctions on persistant or flagrant
backbiters. Baha'u'llah tells us we must obey His commandments "for love
of my Beauty", not because there is attached to their transgression a
stipulated and specific punishment.
Obviously, the Baha'i authorities may criminalize
> >same-sex marriage in Holland if they like, within the Baha'i system, but
> >in that case it is hard to see upon what grounds. Properly married
> >persons are not bringing disgrace to the Faith, nor are they engaged in
> >blatant immorality by community standards. And Baha'u'llah does not
> >compel us to criminalize same-sex marriage.
The point is that if the law of Holland says that marriage at the age of
6 is permissible, the Baha'is do not then have the freedom to go and
marry at the age of 6. Baha'i law is not related to national law and where
the former is more restrictive than the latter, we abide by the latter.
Baha'u'llah did not give us laws so that we would not seem more liberal
than the people around us. He did not give us laws so as not to
"disgrace" the Faith in the eyes of the Dutch. He gave us laws so that we
would not disgrace ourselves in the eyes of God. Do we really weigh the
commandments of God against the standards of the community around us? I
doubt that, in Holland where Marijana is not an illegal substance that
there is any "blatant immorality" in the eyes of the community in the
smoking of marijana. Does that mean that the Baha'is in Holland are free
to smoke dope? There is no "disgace" by community standards in drinking
alcohol, and yet Baha'is abstain, for "love of" His "beauty".
> > There are probably on the order of 120 million gays in the world (and
> >many more if we count everyone who has engaged in same-sex intimacy),
> >which would make a country the size of Japan. For Baha'is to condemn
> >them as "unnatural" and imply that they are deformed is to purvey
> >prejudice pure and simple. I thought we were against that sort of
> >thinking.
I quite agree that we are against prejudice. It is in no way a judgement
we place on gays if we condemn homosexuality, any more than it is a
judgement we make on adulterors when we condemn adultery. No one knows
his own spiritual destiny, let alone that of any body else's. Sexual
morality is only one aspect of an individual's life. Moreover, there is
no expectation of all the gay non Bahais to abide by the Baha'i laws when
they have not recognized Baha'ullah (see Aqdas para 1&2).
However, the fact that there are 120 million gays around the world adds no
weight to the arguement. There almost 6 billion non-Baha'is out there.
Doesn't mean that they're right!
Lovingly submitted
Shamim Razavi
Phone: +44 1865 279666
Fax: +44 1865 279645
Snail Mail: Exeter College
Oxford
England
=END=
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 23:46:24 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: flat tax (a.k.a one is born every minute)
The circus entrepreneur P.T. Barnum once said that a sucker is born every
minute.
This is demonstrated by anyone taking seriously the proposal (especially
pushed by millionaires and billionaires . . . hmmmm . . .) of a
flat tax. Currently, income tax is slightly progressive, with people
paying %15, %28 and %36 according to how much they make. A flat tax of,
say, %20 would save the wealthy %16 and the middle class %8. But in real
money it would save the wealthy many, many billions of dollars and only
save a middle class family a few hundred. After a year or two, when the
deficit ballooned and social services collapsed, the middle class would
be hit up for the difference; by then the poor, weak, and elderly would
be in the streets. But the Perots and Forbes's would be billions wealthier.
Typically in American history, Capital (the wealthiest 1%) has taken 1/3
of the wealth, and labor (all the rest of us) 2/3s. In the 50s and 60s
this gross income inequality flattened out a bit. In 1979 the top 1%
owned about 24% of the privately held wealth. Today, in 1995, the top 1%
owns nearly 40% of the privately held wealth in the U.S. Meanwhile, the
average wage of the average American worker has in real terms been
stagnant since 1972. The effect of the flat tax would be to vastly
increase these inequalities, which are already greater than at any time
since 1928 (note the year). It would also have the effect (since current
plans produce a $300 billion per year shortfall) of dismantling what is
left of the welfare state.
`Abdu'l-Baha knew something serious about wealth inequalities. He did
not like them. In Foundations of World Unity p. 40 he proposes a
graduated income tax scheme of 10%, 25%, 33% and 50%, depending upon the
wealth of the individual. He also proposed a negative income tax for the
poor, an idea reinvented and made respectable by Milton Friedman. He
wanted these taxes used in part to care for the orphans, the disabled,
the poor, and the elderly; i.e. for a welfare state, and he says on the
same page that this is the *government's* responsibility. Of course, he
also insists that quite substantial amounts of corporate profits be paid
to the workers in profit-sharing (and not the piddlimg amounts most often
paid out now).
The general effect of a negative income tax, of genuinely graduated
taxes, and serious profit-sharing would be to flatten out income
inequalities; the welfare state `Abdu'l-Baha foresaw would ensure that no
one lived in penury or died for lack of ability to pay for medicine.
`Abdu'l-Baha's message is not popular today in the U.S. Since others
have drawn a line in the sand about what is mutable and what is not in
the Baha'i Faith, I feel comfortable in reciprocating. Graduated income
taxes, profit-sharing, and the welfare state, (all of which are under
attack nowadays) are all repeatedly invoked in the Baha'i Writings, with
some of these principles (the state's duty to care for the indigent and to
keep military expenditures low) going back as far as Baha'u'llah's 1867
Tablet to the Kings.
The U.S. is not at war and there is no Power on the horizon likely to
take it on, yet it still spends $250 billion per year on the military
(levels similar to the height of the Vietnam war). At the same time,
Congress seeks to abolish the Legal Aid Fund that provides counsel to the
poor, to weaken medicaid and medicare, and to increase wealth
stratification, which is already at obscenely high levels. The Old World
Order is, truly, lamentably defective.
By the way, if you want to take money out of politics, abolish paid
political advertising on television (Germany does). Politicians mainly
have to raise money for t.v. ads, which makes them captive of wealthy
donors. Since the air waves are publicly owned, and broadcasters pay
nothing for their use of them to the public, broadcasting a set number
of ads for free would be the least they could do. Shortening the
campaign season (as in the U.K. and Germany) would also do wonders.
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 22:08:09 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Re: ... Re: Mujtahids - oh no, not "lay Baha'is" and
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Eric D. Pierce" ,
"Talisman"
>I am tired, so forgive me for breaching netiquette by posting
>a reply to a private message
Dear Eric, and Talismanians
I don't believe this is a simple a breach of netiquette. I think it is a
breach of trust. I hope others will not follow Eric's example with regard
to things I have written them in private. As far as this goes I can
comment no further.
It seems that I lost my patience and with so many names and no faces to
attach them to a misunderstanding took place and my remarks went off the
mark. For this I must now apologize to everyone and assure them that I
hold every member of this list in the highest regard. I hope this
doesn't ring false to anyone because it isn't.
I won't comment on the text of Eric's post because I don't feel this list
should serve the purposes of an encounter group. Perhaps there should be
such a list but from my POV Talisman isn't that list.
Your Baha'i Bother
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 23:57:16 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: flat tax (a.k.a one is born every minute)
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Juan Cole" , "Talisman"
Juan writes:
>The U.S. is not at war and there is no Power on the horizon likely to
>take it on, yet it still spends $250 billion per year on the military
>(levels similar to the height of the Vietnam war). At the same time,
>Congress seeks to abolish the Legal Aid Fund that provides counsel to the
>poor, to weaken medicaid and medicare, and to increase wealth
>stratification, which is already at obscenely high levels. The Old World
>Order is, truly, lamentably defective.
I can't help but think this is fundamentally true. It seems, though, it
will be difficult to restructure an economy addicted to wars. Here in
Lubbock, a bastion of fiscal conservatism, there is Reese Air Force Bace.
There was a fight to stop the closing of it, althought the government is
supposed to be leaner and save taxpayers money. It is not the position
right or left that bothers me but the shameless hypocracy that goes on.
Let the other guy sacrifice--I still want to feed at the troph. I
frequently think to myself why do the wealthy begrudge the poor the
pitance that is provided. It's very true that there are those that
defraud the system and Baha'u'llah prohibits beggary, but those who have
been blessed or cursed with wealth should set an example, not rob those
less fortunate.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 01:07:36 EST
Subject: Xavier et all
Hi Xavier and all
Sorry, Xavier mentioned via phone you'all are talking about taxes etc.
and I lost his e-mail address. Xavier here is the quote from SWB p.
15 and The Foundations of World Unity about taxation.
"It would be far more heinous a deed to sadden the hearts of the
faithful, whether men or women, than to lay waste the sacred House of
God"--Bab
The passages regarding the progressive taxation for farmers etc. is
under title 'Cooperation' in Foundations for World Unity p.59-61.
No flat tax! At least that's what I understand from it. If I am
being redundant here I ask for your pardon.
love,
quanta
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 02:43:32 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Flat tax and Japan Corp.s
Dear All ,
Cheers to Juan and Richard .I thought I was the only one left who
invoked Abdul Baha from Foundations and gave fireside talks on the principles
of the Bahai Faith related to said issues .
As for Corporations , not being a fan of many of their current forms let
me balance out SDtephens critique of the ugly Amercan corporation . Keep in
mind I dont care for any of the current forms .
U.S. corporations do blithly eliminate employees variously characterized
as "downsizing" "re-engineering" and yes even "transformation " . the
coproration I work for is just such a process now . Think of it
transformation the object of every revelation is now a euphamism for
unemployment.
Japanese Corporations . This is the myth of permanent employment rights
and the "familial " character of Japanese Corps vis a vis U.S. ones. The
premanent emplyment motiff applied to less than half actually somwwhere
around a hird of all employees in the Japanese National economy. The non
-permanent employees function as a "reserve army " of the marginally
employed. One of the principle ways Japanese Corps handle "transformation "
since there is a real "familial" perception to deal with is spin employees
off to subsidiaries and then terminate them . So please don't hold Japan out
as a moel of enlightened employment practice and the U.S. as the proverbial
ugly American . That is a really old tune . Corporate Capitalism is ugly
no matter what national variety happens to be its base. Even Adam Smith
understood that capital once enthroned as "king" had no loyalty or boundaries
, national or other wise.
warm regards ,
Terry
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 96 11:19:55+030
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: forgiveness
Dear Luanne and Phillip:
Thank you for your exchange! It is very insightful and well thought out and
explored. I am gaining a lot from it.
Love,
Bev.
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 01:05:13 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Fat lady.
Dear Talismans,
Frankly, I'm uncomfortable with this thread.
Terrible trouble and heartaches result from young girls dieting themselves to
death to conform to commercialized and totally unrealistic ideals of
ultrathin model-like beauty. The ground-breaking book _The Beauty Myth_by
Naomi Wolf argues that lookism, size-ism etc, all serve commercial purposes,
maintain existing power and status hierarchies and act as instruments to
maintain an oppressive and trivializing climate for women.
Furthermore, many people (particularly in the US) are so overweight as to
have life-threatening health problems, not to mention personal anguish caused
by living in a society that evaluates their worth entirely in terms of their
physical appearance.
These things are not very funny.
Respectfully,
Sandy
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 03:24:26 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Thanks. A favor. A new book.
> READ William Chittick and
> Sachiko Murata's _THE VISION OF ISLAM _ . I wish it had been avialable ten
> years ago instead of two.
Terry is right on the mark!! If I were to ever teach an introductory
class on Islam, this book would be required reading. In as concise a
fashion as possible, it practically covers everything. But what is
especially important about this book is that it gives an insiders view of
the religion -- btw neither Chittick nor his wife Sachiko Murata are actual
Muslims.
> If you dont believe me ask Nima what he thinks of Chittick as a place
> to start for a *lay* audiance.
I cannot praise the work of William C. Chittick on Islamic esoterism,
and Ibn `Arabi in particular, enough. If you see anything by him, grab
it! Talk about a man who has literally absorbed all of this stuff into
the very marrow of his being. Folks, this guy is not only a brilliant
scholar but more importantly he is a true believer. Ask Brian Miller and
Steve Scholl how the three of us just sat at the edge of our seats last
October with his talk on "From Absence to presence in the Presence of
Being." I feel especially fortunate to have to have met and befriended
one of my three living intellectual heroes -- the other two being John
Walbridge and James Winston Morris.
Nima
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 10:39:15 +0000 (GMT)
From: Shamim Razavi
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Correction to "Re: Miscellaneous"
Dear all,
Sorry, last message should have read "when the former is more restrictive
than the latter, we abide by the *former*" in the fourth paragraph.
That's what happens when you post at 5 am!
With love
Shamim Razavi
Phone: +44 1865 279666
Fax: +44 1865 279645 (marked FAO S. Razavi)
Snail Mail: Exeter College
Oxford
England
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 03:44:24 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: "Mark A. Foster"
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Source languages & Baha'i religionwissenschaft
> As you know, I have tremendous respect for you and for your
> knowledge and understanding. I keep thinking, "If this dude knows this
> much now, what will he be like after he gets his Ph.D." ? However, as
> far as I know, William Sears, Emogene Hoagg, Dan Jordan, Marian Lippitt,
> and many others, did not know the source languages, but I would not call
> their knowledge of the Faith as "at best, superficial." Do you think
> that may be taking linguistic context a bit too far?
Dear Mark, thank you for the kind compliment. As you know, the feeling is
mutual and I have a tremendous amount of respect for your knowledge and
understanding also. And you know how I always cherish our long, stimulating
phone conversations.
As far as the issue of the *importance of source languages* is concerned, I
am specifically talking about a science of Baha'i religious studies:
religionwissenschaft. One can be an advanced spiritual adept and have
access to the vistas of Baha'i gnosis (thousands upon thousands of believers
being self-evident cases in point), but, yes, as far the systematic,
academic study of the Faith is concerned, I would have to say a working
knowledge of source languages is indispensable. That is, if you're
working with texts, which is the *central* task of any Baha'i
religionwissenschaft. I remember David Hoffman many moons ago when I was
in Haifa for pilgrimage quoting the Guardian to the effect that the
friends in the West should one and all seek to study Arabic and Persian;
the friends in Iran, English -- could someone please trace the source for
this quote.
Regards,
Nima
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Re: Source languages & Baha'i religionwissenschaft
To: sadra@rt66.com (Sadra)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 05:33:16 -0600 (CST)
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Hi, Nima -
I would agree with you if you were talking about the development of a
Baha'i theology (Juan's "theophanology"). Certainly, a knowledge of the
source languages is necessary to be a theologian (at least as the
discipline of theology presently exists).
However, religious studies includes more than just theology. Actually,
many academics would distinguish between theology and religious studies.
So theology (at least in a classical sense) would be the study of primary
texts by qualified experts in that field. Religious studies would include
the sociology of religion, the psychology of religion, the phenomenology
of religion, the philosophy of religion, and the history of religion.
Academic specialists in religious studies have often been at odds with
conservative theologians, too. OTOH, some liberal theologians take
degrees in sociology.
So, one could be a sociologist of religion, specializing in the
contemporary neo-evangelical movement, and not know Hebrew and Greek.
Actually, most sociologists of religion I know who specialize in research
into Christianity do not know the source languages, and it is not
considered a requirement of the field (nor do I see why it should be).
OTOH, since I was doing research into pentecostalism, which included
something of a focus on glossolalia, I felt that I should have at least a
basic command of Greek. (And that is what I got, a *basic* command of it
.)
Likewise, I would say that religious studies into the Baha'i Faith
(except for, perhaps, certain types of history) would not require a
knowledge of Arabic and Persian. OTOH, a Baha'i theologian would need to
have a good grasp of those languages (and possibly English as well).
Perhaps you are using religious studies to mean theology? If so, I would
agree with you. However, I don't think that your usage would be typical.
I also think that elevating academic approaches to religion over the
approaches of the non-academic is unwarranted. It is possible to have a
firm grasp of Christian theology and, at the same time, hardly understand
Christianity at all.
Warm greetings,
Mark (Foster)
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 96 20:36:23 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg"
To: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Flat tax and Japan Corp.s
Dear Terry:
You said:
> Japanese Corporations . This is the myth of permanent employment rights
> and the "familial " character of Japanese Corps vis a vis U.S. ones. The
> permanent emplyment motif applied to less than half actually somewhere
> around a third of all employees in the Japanese National economy.
In Japan, we say that the "salaryman" working for big companies in the
lifetime employment category, is about a third, yes.
> The non-permanent employees function as a "reserve army" of the marginally
> employed.
Most of the rest of the people are also employed, but not in the big,
major corporations. The number of people marginally employed is a
very small number only. Japan is not only a country of major
corporations, but multitudinous small companies, often affiliates of
or working for or with the major corporations.
> One of the principle ways Japanese Corps handle "transformation "
> since there is a real "familial" perception to deal with, is to spin
> employees off to subsidiaries and then terminate them.
The spinning employees off to subsidiaries part is true: my company
downsized from 300,000 to 200,000 by doing that. But, in Japan,
it is very hard to terminate anyone. Any major company that tries to
do that would bring the wrath of the entire culture down on their necks.
Rather, the spin-offs work to develop new products and new services,
much like entreprenurial starts do in the US.
> So please don't hold Japan out as a model of enlightened employment
> practice and the U.S. as the proverbial ugly American . That is a
> really old tune. Corporate capitalism is ugly no matter what
> national variety happens to be its base.
Of course, there is something to what your saying, but there are big,
major differences between the US and Japan, although they may fade in
time. Confucian paternalism is alive and well in many segments of
society, and it makes for a much increased sense of belonging.
The differences are much, much greater than you may realize. For example,
company presidents are critized for making as much as 300,000 dollars
a year, exorbitant by Japanese standards. Their US counterparts make
easily ten times as much, and nobody blinks an eyelid. So, to a
degree that is hard for Americans to appreciate, Japan approaches the
model of everybody equal and middle class that the United States felt
itself to be back in the '50s. I think the unemployment is about 1%,
an all time high, but nothing like the American one of 5%, considered
to be low.
Corporations may be intrinsically evil, but the Japanese don't believe
it.
Scary, isn't it.
Steve
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 07:42:11 -0500 (EST)
From: George Gary
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: teaching
Just a little news for people who think nothing is happening in the USA
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 21:14:36 EST
From: MR MICHAEL C ONEAL
To: gg@scs.howard.edu
Subject: Re: prodigy address test
Hello George
There is a loss of words when I try to tell you what is happening
here. We co- sponsored the largest Martin luther King Jr.paraded in
the world and the exposure was tremendous. WE were on all the TV
stations, met many high profile people and officals and the day of
the parade people were running up to us on the route and taking all
of the literature that we could hand out. We are in a wonderful state
of being right now. Savannah is cooking!!!
Allah'U'Abha
Mike
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 96 22:57:56 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg"
To: Sadra , friberg@will.brl.ntt.jp
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Islamic Mysticism
Dear Nima:
I bought six or seven books, and will post a list telling you which
ones later. I finished reading the essays by Professor Izutsu, which
I found very interesting, read Roy Mottahedeh's book on Iran, and have
made it up to al-Farabi in Majid Fakhry's *A History of Islamic
Philosophy*. I have several other books, too, including the *Quest
for Red Sulfur* on ibn Arabi, and a volume on three different
philosophers (including ibn Arabi) by someone whose name I can't
remember.
As I am new to this field of study, I am receiving many new
impressions. For example, what first impressed me about ibn
Arabi was his seeming lack of humility. Now I know that he is
the great recorder of Sufi traditions, and highly regarded in
some circle. So, I need your help in understanding why it
appears to me that way. Your help and insight into these Islamic
traditions will be highly appreciated.
> Why do you think his account lacks humility? He is after all the foremost
> saint of Islamic Sufism. In fact, he is the Khatm al-wilaya'l-Muhammadiyah
> (The Seal of Muhammadan Sanctity), to be more precise. This, Stephen, is a
> particular form saints & prophet figures in Islam sometimes address
> themselves. Baha'u'llah often says similar things like "qasam be-jamAlam" (I
> swear by My Beauty) and the like; don't you think that this too could be
> construed by less sympathetic ears (which it has, btw) as a sign of
> pomposity & arrogance on the part of the Ancient Beauty. Your objection
> is a very minor quibble and you're looking at the issue through your own
> cultural prism.
That may be the case, and after I read more by ibn Arabi, perhaps I
will agree with you. In Baha'u'llah's case, He shows great humility
toward God, despite His high station, as does Ab'dul Baha.
You say,
> Don't you think that totally self-realized individuals -- ones who
> know their Lord because they know themselves and have reached the state of
> existential nothingness -- are in fact the elect and the cream among the
> crop of humanity?
Honestly? Perhaps it is best if I am honest here. I don't know. I
would have to met them and see. If they were totally self-absorbed,
and considered me as if I were a fly or some speck on the wall, I
probably wouldn't be very impressed.
I guess I'm impressed at the outer level by such attainment, but
I am too American and against hierarchies to be taken with the
concept.
> > What I find in the European tradition, and also strongly evident in the
> > Baha'i Writings, is a much more universal approach:
>
> Which European tradition are we talking about? Are we talking about the
> bourgeois, positivist European tradition that would impose upon all humanity
> its own pernicious and civilization-destroying value system? What kind of
> universalism is this supposed to be exactly?
Well, I didn't exactly say which European system. But it is probably
not the one you are talking about. There are a number of European
traditions, and the one that I am trained in is the modern scientific
tradition. By temperament and childhood training, I am a radical
democrat.
I accept the Enlightenment ideals about the importance of education
and rationality, while rejecting the Enlightenment rejection of God.
I accept much of the European committment to modern, democratic
organization of society and the need for elimination of heirarchical
social organization with its system of privilige through birth rights.
And I accept the radical extension of this idea to the belief that all
people in the world are born equal.
> Stephen, I hope you know
> your position sounds awfully like the totalizing and condescending European
> orientalisms of the nineteenth-century.
This just because I think that ibn Arabi lacks humility? Come on!
> I fail to see how the European
> tradition (that is, if we're talking about Heidegger and co as your
> definition of the European tradition) has anything in common with the
> Baha'i weltanschauung or universalism.
Ah, perhaps you too could do some studying! Now is not the time and
place to talk about existentialism and modern continental philosophy,
but most modern thinkers detect multiple intertwined strands in
European thinking. Simply put, many of the basic questions in
European thought have to do with the nature of rationality: Why
is it that there are such things as truths arrived at by rational
thought? Or, are they just social constructs?
At first, the answers were those given by Islamic thinkers - the
Europeans borrowed from Islam like the Japanese did from China and
Korea - the main difference being the Europeans tried to disavow
their borrowings (for practical reasons, perhaps: the threat of
being burned at the stake being one of them). Later, the Europeans
discovered the Greek and Roman classics for themselves, and drank
directly from their thought, confidant that it was the predecessor
of their culture.
The slow stirrings of science, originally an import from Islam,
woke in accounting, engineering and administrative practices, as
well among court astronomers. In time, capable geniuses started
discovering that things were at variance with the wisdom of the
ancients, presumably because the ancients considered hands-on
experience degrading and frequently didn't test their ideas.
In time, a fusion of ancient science, mathematics, and engineering
grew into being, the consequences of which are still our major
concern. From the successes of this new science, and in reaction
to the excesses of widespread religious warfare, a new thinking
that combined classical elements (Greek thought, Roman Law and
Humanities) with a rationalist belief in universal laws discoverable
by science came into being, greatly abetted by the rise of European
nations states.
These rationalists, often accepting religion too, continued to marvel
at the universality of science, and to try to explain it: Kant, Hegel
and other tried their hand at it. Times changed, and although
philosophies based on the imitation of science fell in and out of
favor, the larger system in which science, philosophy, government,
technology, and business continued to grow, develop, and prosper,
until the Europeans dominated the globe. Then, a new universalism
set in: a combination of power politics, colonialization, and
explorer-mentality. Your 19th century Orientalists come in here.
In modern times, this system fell into a crisis from which it has
yet to emerge. Heidegger and those who drew from him were faced with
the problem of explaining why all that fine European scientific
thinking and those universalist systems of thought failed to prevent the
catastrophic wars that blighted the twentieth century.
And, they started to question rationalism and all that coddled up
to it, including science. What they now find themselves doing is
searching outside of the standard European sources for answers.
Now, if you want them to stop this, I could send them a letter
asking them to do so, saying that you don't approve.
- Oops - I'm get tired and cranky. I better wind this up.
Anyway, I'll do some more reading, and ask some more questions
later on.
Yours sincerely,
Stephen R. Friberg
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 09:54:34 -0500 (EST)
From: Richard Vernon Hollinger
To: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Flat tax and Japan Corp.s
On Thu, 18 Jan 1996 TLCULHANE@aol.com wrote:
> U.S. corporations do blithly eliminate employees variously characterized
> as "downsizing" "re-engineering" and yes even "transformation " . the
> coproration I work for is just such a process now . Think of it
> transformation the object of every revelation is now a euphamism for
> unemployment.
Terry, I have often thought that the main reason `Abdu'l-Baha advocated
a limitation on wealth and a narrowing of the gap between rich and poor,
was not because he opposed the existence of a wealthy capitalist class
per se. Rather, I think it is because the when ownership of assets is
concentrated in a small percentage of the population, as outlined in
Juan's posting, the major economic decisions reflect the interests of
only that small group. Human considerations that might be taken into
account in a small family-owned business, where keeping relatives
employed might, for example, be a consideration, can simply be shunted
aside. We cannot avoid the global marketplace, and competition will
always be factor in making decisions about where to locate a company,
etc. But with the current concentrations of wealth, profit is usually
the *only* consideration, and that does not make for a very pleasant
society anywhere.
Richard
> Japanese Corporations . This is the myth of permanent employment rights
> and the "familial " character of Japanese Corps vis a vis U.S. ones. The
> premanent emplyment motiff applied to less than half actually somwwhere
> around a hird of all employees in the Japanese National economy. The non
> -permanent employees function as a "reserve army " of the marginally
> employed. One of the principle ways Japanese Corps handle "transformation "
> since there is a real "familial" perception to deal with is spin employees
> off to subsidiaries and then terminate them . So please don't hold Japan out
> as a moel of enlightened employment practice and the U.S. as the proverbial
> ugly American . That is a really old tune . Corporate Capitalism is ugly
> no matter what national variety happens to be its base. Even Adam Smith
> understood that capital once enthroned as "king" had no loyalty or boundaries
> , national or other wise.
>
> warm regards ,
> Terry
>
>
>
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 10:02:07 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Corbin on Heidegger
Dear Steve and All ,
I feel great !! Finally after 14 months there is something substantive
about which Steve and I can disagree .
I have a good deal of respect for Steve Scholl there are perhaps only
a handful of people whose views I always consider . That is true in this case
as well. I have trult pondered Steves comments on Heidegger.
Having read Heidegger as well I did not find him nearly as
"illuminating as you . I also think his philosophical , political and
practical allegiance to Nazism is more than a stain on an otherwise
admirable record . I think , based on my reading of the man and the comments
of others that his philosophy is implcated in his actions - no *fact* - value
seperation for me on this guy . I will go to my grave telling everyone I
know I think his stature is a testimony to the spiritual impoverishment of
the age . That I disagree with virtually everyone on Talisman about this ,
and interestingly , it cuts across all sorts of fascinating political lines
does not in the least dissuade me . There is probably a fascinating
Sociology of Knowledge study lurking somewhere on this one .
Steve you said MR H. was about " clearing the ground of being " . With
all do respect What the hell does that statement mean ? This is the kind
of thing that drives me crazy. Some guy writes in dense German prose and we
figure because it is dense that therefore it must be profound ..
I want someone to give me a fundamental tenet of Heideggers , even just
one , and them explain to me why it is significant ? How it elucidates
anything about the human condition more significantly than the lady at my
corner bakery. Now I am not a scholar of Heidegger but I have read enough
of him to paraphrase my former friend from down under to recognize the
fragrance of the south end of a donkey .
warm regards ,
Terry
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 09:59:59 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Flat tax
Dear All,
Do the people who fall into the top tax brackects under the
present tax system actually pay their taxes - that is, isn't
it true that with the loopholes in the code they reduce their
payments?
regards,
sAmAn
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 11:19:21 -0500
To: George Gary , epzv35a@prodigy.com
From: osborndo@pilot.msu.edu (Donald Zhang Osborn)
Subject: Re: teaching
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Allah'u'Abha! Thank you George for forwarding Michael's message on MLK Day
events in Savannah to Talisman; thank you Michael for the description...
I write concerning the other MLK anniversary--April 4th (his assasination)
which some people are celebrating as "A Day Without Violence"--to ask if
either of you are aware of any Baha'i activities (in your communities or
elsewhere) to observe this also. It would seem like a great opportunity to
follow up MLK Birthday events, as well as a "bridge" to Race Unity Day
events in June (keep
up the momentum!).
I've appended some info on the "D w/o V" from its sponsor, Peace Studies
Association. There are a couple of sites where one can obtain further info:
gopher://csf.colorado.edu/11/peace/orgs/psa
http://ccwf.cc.utexas.edu/~iwork/peacetxt.htm
Although 4/6/96 is the "1st Interantional" D w/o V, I think it has been
observed in the US for a few years now.
Don Osborn osborndo@pilot.msu.edu
<@>-<@>-<@>-<@>-<@>-<@>-<@>-<@>-<@>-<@>-<@>-<@>-<@>
THE FIRST ANNUAL INTERNATIONAL DAY WITHOUT VIOLENCE
* * * * * * * APRIL 4, 1996 * * * * * * *
The International Day Without Violence is a call to people of goodwill
everywhere to join together in envisioning a peaceful world.
It's an opportunity to join together with individuals and organizations
around the globe to create a world without violence.
What is the purpose of this event?
*To focus on alternatives to violence
*To promote study of the processes of peace as a central aspect of education
*To cultivate communication among individuals around the world
What can you do to help?
*Tell everyone you know about the Day Without Violence. Spread the word in
your community, your country and to your friends in other countries
*Help plan events or media publicity
*Have the mayor of your town proclaim 4/4/96 as The Day w/o Violence
*Encourage organizations in which you are involved to link up with other
organizations both locally and outside your community to work together to
promote the concept of a Day Without Violence
*Strive to base your personal relationships on inclusivity and harmony
*Visualize world peace
*Think Globally--Dance Locally!
*Pass this message on . . .
As individuals we may not feel that we have much power to effect change,
but collectively, we can make a difference. April 4, 1996 was chosen as
the focus date for the first International Day Without Violence because it
is the death anniversary of Martin Luther King, one of the greatest
proponents of nonviolence in our times. But any activity any time
advocating nonviolence contributes to the greater cause.
^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^^*
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 11:05:49 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Abdu'l-Baha' and America
When dealing with the misconceptions and distortions that have shackled
the Baha'i community in America - held in a statis essentially - for so long
it is necessary to look at the image portrayed of Abdu'l-Baha' in our
*culture*. It is an image closely related to the image of Christ portrayed in
many denominations.
By this is meant that often we see an image of Abdu'l-Baha conveyed to us
that is two-dimensional. And this image that we do see - that is stressed
repeatedly in books, classes, speeches etc is a very passive one. All those
qualities which have been, for thousands of years associated with the female
(as Joseph Campbell and others have pointed out) are the ones that are
repeatedly *played up* in various settings in our Baha'i culture. There is
little balance offered of the *active* elements of the Master; except when it
suits the occasion. That usually entails someone standing on a platform and
trying to convince everyone to rush out into the streets to teach (as if the
Master actually did this.) We are given the impression that Abdu'l-Baha stood
on stages and in churches around the country and *invited* everyone to
*become Baha'i*.
But most the time we see His *soft* nature emphasized. How sweet He was to
the children; how kind to the elderly and poor; how sensitive He was to
everyone around Him. He has been sythesized into this wonderful old fellow
that you would expect to see coming down Walton's Mountian.
And while there is little doubt that He was all these things and more,
what is so odd is that while He was here in America esp. He was a constant
source of bemused embarassment for many of the Friends because of those
actions that catagorically get glossed over or washed out through repeated
shallow reference.
He was very agressive. In a country that was in seeing a huge resurgence
of racism and prejudice He spoke out and acted out. There are numerous
examples but one mentioned here and sriously regarded should suffice.
When he was at the home of Ali Khan - the Persian Charge' d' affaires in
Washington D.C. there was a dinner being given in His honor. There were many
very influential people coming. In those days the setting of the dinner table
was a strategic affair. Everyone had to be placed just so - matters of rank,
popularity, who got along with who, etc., etc., were of the utmost
importantance.
Of course those familiar with this story know how it goes. Louis Gregory
was visiting the Master at the Khan's home. When dinner approached all were
informed. The Master was upstairs with Louis. Ali Khan knew the political
score - as did Louis. As the Master was led downstairs Louis knew he would
try and slip out the back. It would not do at all to be seen in the dining
area. No black man would be in such an area at such a time unless he was a
servent.
When the Master was about to sit down He looked around so innocently and
asked, clearly, "where is Louis?" You must place yourself there - beside Ali
and his lovely American wife, especially. Abdu'l-Baha' asked again, in a
loud, clear and wonderfully polite yet firm voice, "Where is My Loius?!" Ali
knew there was no choice. The guests of course had no idea who this Louis
was. But Ali went to fetch him.
Then as if this were not enough as Louis and Ali were coming down the
stairs the Master began to re-arrange the seating order. He then had Loius
Gregory sit at His right, in the seat of honor. And then, as if nothing odd,
nothing monumental had occurred He smiled and sat down.
I would suggest that anyone who has not read, or not read in a long while
the book "To Move the World" might do so. There are some historical glitches
in it (Helen Bishop has told me of a few that she knew of personally - having
been there) but over-all it is a good book. And this passage alone bears
studying and really considering.
What the Master did was socially and politically outrageous. It was on the
same level as anything Gandhi was doing at the moment in South Africa. More
so. Here was a man, a stranger who was travelling the high social road of an
emerging superpower and he sweetly yet boldly tossed ice cold water in
everyone's face there at that table that day. This is not the action of a
timid darling old grandpa. This is the action of a shrewd-minded iconoclast
who knew exactly the effect His actions would have, knew the possible social
repercussions and did it anyway.
He did it because it was just. He did it because He was sending a
desperate message to the American Baha'is that while wisdom is appreciated
the wisdom that stifles action and mums the voice is not.
We have what I would suggest is slective amnesia with regard to the
Master's life and actions. There are many stories scattered through the works
on His life, esp. here is America that bear witness that this was a Man
desperately trying to awaken the conscience of the Baha'is in a time that is,
odd as it may sound only slightly more socially constricting than today. For
all of America's wild outlandish behavior it is a culture that demands
conformity while wearing the guise of non-conformity. Advertisers sieze on
this by stressing that we purchase cars, clothes, perfumes that will enhance
our individuality (by mimicking millions of others.)
In loking to tear down the misconceptions and attitudes that hold us back
as a Community we might re-visit Abdu'l-Baha's life - this time with an eye
for the spiritual revolutionary that clearly stands there waiting to be seen.
Jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 96 12:10:01 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: dirty shoes
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Richard, while reading Eric's reply to you, I must say that I did not see
it as a criticism of you or of anyone else. I really was delighted with his
comments about Talisman. I do think there are a number of us for whom it plays
an important role and Eric expressed these sentiments very well.
Alas, I have no time to respond to Derek. I have to clean up the muddy
footprints left by all the Talismanians on our living room rug. You really are
all a mess. I should get back to reading "The Uses of Supernatural Powers" as
well - bone up for the Mysticism Conference.
P.S. Lora, please get in touch. IMPORTANT MATTER! LInda
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 18:46:35 +0100
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: Loni.BramsonLerche@ping.be (Loni Bramson-Lerche)
Subject: Abdu'l-Baha stories needed
I need, if possible, some very fast references to
stories about Abdu'l-Baha being insulted, vilified,
etc. If anyone can help me with this, please send
the references to my personal mailbox:
Loni.BramsonLerche@ping.be. Thank you,
Loni Bramson-Lerche
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 11:27:28 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Some Thoughts: Take 2
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Talisman" ,
"Stephen Friberg"
>Dear Steven,
>
>Very Good! You know for the life of me I couldn't understand this
>defensiveness. In Berkeley and the Bay Area in general (at least while I
>was there) the intellect was King-- by this I mean one was respected for
>their learning. I'm told I was a "legend" there. Not so much for my
>learning but my individuality and of course my dedication to the Faith
>(that shouldn't have been last) (laughter).
>
>You know it has never been the same since I left Bagdad by the Bay. But I
>didn't resent it. I just kind of wondered what happened and why am I not
>fitting in? I guess I blamed other people to some extent but I realized
>it was my problem.
>
>Talsiman is like heaven to me after these long dry years. Finally
>somebody that thinks! And the first thing I know I recieve the twin
>distictions of Racist and Joe Bozo the anti-intellectual. (laughter) It's
>funny actually.
>
>From my perspective calling persons like ourselves anti-intellectual IS
>anti-intellectual. After Eric's post of our conversation I wonder if I
>have any credibility left.
>
>Really, I'm taking this with a good humor I just wonder what this resent
>is all about. I mean we are not the average thinkers so why this label.
>
>Richard
Steve I just thought I'd put in the original text again of my private
message to you (mine only).
I thought this issue important enough to share my thoughts with everyone.
Dear Steve,
I guess what I was saying is that the community I became a Baha'i in
displayed a great respect for knowledge. I don't think it was
intellectuality so much--that would have been considered stuffy and
pretentious but "quality of mind" was most admired. It was filled with
Persians and other well grounded people who deepened me. They were very
open minded and could appreciate my take on the Faith. When I left (the
Bay) I was always filled with an uneasiness because I had to stifle
myself and not offend others. I was depressed all the time and frustrated
that I was not appreciated. I longed to return to the nest of my beloved
Bay. But I had to grow up. A family can protect you while you are being
raised but one has to meet the world as it is.
I later found that I could communicate with other Baha'is who were not
like me by trying to be very sincere and have the "Heart" as a frame of
reference for discourse. I can see here on Talisman that some scholars
are uncomfortable with that approach, but the Master exemplified IMHO
that very way of being. I'm not saying I have perfected this by any
means but at least I can say I'm familiar with it.
II.
In the sixties when I became a Baha'i seeking and learning were taken
much more seriously, I think, than they are at the present time (my
opinion). But as you say "Whose fault is that?". The "pose of
intellectuality" turns people off. I know, I do it all the time.
The discussion on Talisman has evolved to the point: There is the
proposition that the intellectuality envisioned is not elitist but rather
egalitarian, yet, there will be experts. " Intellectual Experts" I
suppose. (Somehow I see a Reductio Ad Absurdum lurking here) I have a
great deal of difficulty with the sub-text of this idea. I would like to
throw away the word "Intellectual" because it has become too loaded.
It's become like a code word IMHO for a certain class of people. "The
Intelligencia" is a Marxist-Leninist idea that I really don't see fitting
in to the Baha'i Faith. It's just too difficult to foresee how this
would play out because it is obscured by a thicket of possible meanings.
I take the consumer advocate point of view and ask questions. I treat my
physician the same way. I despise priesthood's. But I also rely on him
fully at a certain point as "an act of faith". So I'm not a very popular
fellow. I've retained my iconoclastic vision from the sixties, and I
feel within the bounds of moderation Baha'u'llah recommends that view.
"The learned", in most humble opinion and with all due deference to those
who disagree, within the context of the Baha'i Faith, will not be those
who challenge certain clear articles of faith, whether or not there could
be a more refined view.
If a Baha'i aspires to be numbered among the learned IMHO there is a
"different road" to travel and a "different drummer" to march to. I
hope none of my esteemed colleagues takes this the wrong way. I have
enormous respect for everyone here and especially my beloved Juan.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: 18 Jan 1996 10:31:40 -0500
From: "Riaz Motlagh"
Subject: Subscribe
To: "talisman mail address"
Subject: Time:11:30 AM
OFFICE MEMO Subscribe Date:1/18/96
I would like to resubscribe to Talisman. My address is:
riaz.motlagh@qm.sprintcorp.com
Thanks,
Riaz Motlagh
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 10:19:35 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: Re: dirty shoes
Richard can leave his dirty shoe prints on my rug anytime (which he has) and
can even wash his clothes in our machine!
Arsalan
>Dear Richard, while reading Eric's reply to you, I must say that I did not see
>it as a criticism of you or of anyone else. I really was delighted with his
>comments about Talisman. I do think there are a number of us for whom it plays
>an important role and Eric expressed these sentiments very well.
>
>
>Alas, I have no time to respond to Derek. I have to clean up the muddy
>footprints left by all the Talismanians on our living room rug. You really are
>all a mess. I should get back to reading "The Uses of Supernatural Powers" as
>well - bone up for the Mysticism Conference.
>
>P.S. Lora, please get in touch. IMPORTANT MATTER! LInda
>
>
Arsalan J. Sadighi
P.O. Box 23076
Juneau, AK 99802-3076
(907) 463-4668 Residence
(907) 465-5776 Business
(907) 463-4648 Residential Fax
(907) 465-3450 Business Fax
"Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
that is clearly none of your business!" Battista
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 14:23:09 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: lua@sover.net (LuAnne Hightower)
Subject: IHOP, OHOP, WBHOPPIN
Dear Ones,
Walker Brothers apple pancakes will cure you of deep fried french toast
fetishes any day of the week (Is this the place to which you refer, Rick?).
And now Winnetka has its very own Starbuck's, so from any of these eateries,
one can retire for a REAL cup of coffee and pancake post mortem. We be
hoppin at the shear thought of it.
Love,
LuAnne
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 13:30:41 -0600 (CST)
Subject: "Fear and Loathing in Talismania"
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: , "Talisman"
>Dear Richard, while reading Eric's reply to you, I must say that I did not
>see
>it as a criticism of you or of anyone else. I really was delighted with his
>comments about Talisman. I do think there are a number of us for whom it
>plays
>an important role and Eric expressed these sentiments very well.
Dear Linda,
Criticism isn't the word I'd use in this case, but I see your intent. I
only wish that I too could be as "colorful" and "energentic" in my
descriptions as Eric. He is in the best sense a guy that rode with both
the "Hells Angels" and "Richard Nixon". (laughter)
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 14:32:03 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Flat tax and Japan Corp.s
Dear Richard ,
As I was raised in family that ownes a small business - my father use
to tell me he emplyed 20 families not simply had twenty emplyees - I am not
oposed to private ownership of the means of wealth .
You point out , rightly I think , that Abdul Baha was not opposed to
wealth per se . His lauding of philanthropy only makes sense if there is a
wealthy class . In SDC he also comments on wealth but qualifies it with the
"provided the entire population is wealthy " which I take to mean that al
human beings have the material means for a decent life. That and his equation
of the presence of poverty with the existence of tyranny inevitably
predisposes me to not find much to admire in current forms of corporate
capitalism .
Capitalism as an economic system is part of and has furthered a
globalizing project that is part and parcel of modernity . I support
globalization . The universal pluralism of Bahau lah is meaningful only in
such a context . Globalism is , hopefully , here to stay . That does not mean
corprate capitalism is here to stay contrary to the neo -conservative
exaltation , should I say virtual "deification " of capitalism with the summa
bonum of human existence .
There is a fellow at Boston Iniversity , whose name escapes me at the
moment , doing work of what he calls Social markets , not to be confused with
government ownership . This involves new definitions of employer / employee
relationships amomng other things .He argues that these nascent forms are to
capitalism what it was to traditional forms 4-500 hundred years ago.
My point about Japanese corporations was to argue that the corporate
model is not anywhere a wonderful thing . In my view, like war, coprorate
capitalism is unhealthy for flowers , children and other living things. The
reference to a "reserve army of the employed " was to note that those folks
serve a social control purpose . They remind other employees that if you dont
work hard and dedicate yourself to this corporation you to could have a life
that is less secure , make less money etc. The Japanese have also found a
way to maintain the "Confuciann " value image and reality that Stephen
referred to . They learned to move production outside of Japan and
controlled inventory and labor costs by shifting the burden to the Global
South . In Japan unemployment is "exported" . In short we are allimplicated
in a Global system .
It took U. S. based corporations a while to understand how all this
works . Like there Japanese counterparts who learned the system quickly after
WW2 the Americans learned quickly how to combine the best of both worlds -
keep em unemplloyed here under the guise of inflation and "wage restraint" -
great P.R. job and shift the control mechanism and threat to the Global
South as well . When holders of finance capital maximize profits in the
marketplace such behavior is rewarded within the system , with among other
things more capital accumulation . When those whose capital is labor seek to
do so via "wages" it is deemed "inflationary".
The solution I think is in broadenning the definition of how progressive
change comes about . The Enlightenment linked it to secualr means and groups
. The Bahais can participate in a fifferent aspect . I'll let Cornel West
describe it
" The prophetic elements of religious traditions that sustain
communities , preserve values , and project international visions may well
constitute the most credible agents for progressive political hope in the new
epoch."
Sure sounds like something for Bahais to consider and take seriously
. I also reminds me of some of Shoghi Efffendi';s "greatest hits " with
regard to the Destiny of America . So I guess this brings me full circle
back to kevin's comments about developing new forms of human community and
the vision thing of Prof.Cole and item #1 , a preferential option for the
poor .
warm regards,
Terry
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 14:06:38 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Laurel Avenue: Full Dimensional
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Talisman"
Talismanians
Finally a full dimensional portrait of African-Americans on television.
It's not Eugene O'neill, but it's certainly a step in the right
direction.
Laurel Avenue, an HBO presentation, premiered monday night with little or
no fanfare, as to be expected. It has two parts, (I believe, I'm not
sure if it will turn into a series) that run together separated by a
short break.
The miniseries, taken as art, is unfortunately plagued by cliche elements
to some extent, but I can highly recommend it as insightful, moving, and
fascinating!
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 14:31:11 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Flat Tax again
Dear All,
Sorry to be posting again on the subject so soon..
I, like Richard, saw the William F. Buckley moderated debate
about a flat tax on PBS. Even Lester Thoroe (sp?), the MIT
economist, was not that adamant about his objections (he was
on the opposing side of the flat tax) - it seemed more
a debate with regard to ideology rather than expected results.
For less-than-lay economists like myself, it is hard to get a good
handle on the subject because contradictory arguments
are made about past history with seemingly the same data.
Anyway, it is an interesting discussion.
regards,
sAmAn
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 13:04:45 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Farhad Sabetan
Subject: Flat Tax
Very interesting thoughts have been shared on the topic of flat tax and its
implications. Here are some thoughts:
1. As Leigh pointed out the flat tax is not at all like Huquq'u'llah. Other
things being equal, and assuming that human needs are roughly independent of
the level of income (not an altogether unreasonable assumption)
Huquq'u'llah can be shown to emulate a progressive taxation not a flat tax.
2. A flat tax, on the other hand, can, in fact be regressive. For example,
if we allow mortgage interest deduction, then, again other things being
equal, a flat tax becomes very regressive as the rich get to deduct large
mortgage interest from their income and pay the exact same rate as a poor
household who may not even have a house to deduct interest mortgage.
3. A flat tax, by definition, should be neither progressive nor regressive,
however. On equity grounds, it is more distributively just to have a
progressive tax than a flat tax. But the implementation of a true flat tax,
in a way that avoids regressivity is very difficult. I think the reason why
flat tax is being talked about so much is due to its alleged simplicity not
equity. As Steve Forbes says, you can file your return on the back of a
post card. Obviously, the current complicated and arduous tax system today
can make anything justified. But I doubt if politics and politicians can
become better servants of humanity just a result of tax reform. I hope we
do not fall victim of losing sight of the substance of a particular theory
in lieu of its simplicity.
Farhad.
Farhad Sabetan
510-823-3547
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 16:06:49 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Further--Laurel Avenue
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Talisman"
After further investigation in the circumstances of the film "laruel
Avenue" I found to my embarrassment that the release date is 1993. I was
not a subscriber to HBO in those days so I didnt't know. I found out
also that the film is being cleared in Laserdisc format by Camelot for a
very reasonable price. So collectors might be interested in a copy.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 15:42:22 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re: Flat tax and Japan Corp.s
Hello all, Let's get real... We all know that 5% unemployment is just
those who are currently collecting unemployment insurance. I finished out
my benefits back in August of '94, so which list do I show up on? Right
now, I am a *nobody* since I have no income, (not by choice) and am not
collecting any *assistance* from any agency, so I am not counted in
*ANYBODYS* statistics. The joke around the Employment Security Center ( I
do get free fax, phone use and a 1 meg DOS only computer use with laser
printer, though,) when the unemployment numbers go down, is: Gee, there
goes another group of *nobodies* down the tube.... And yes, I am busting
seams to find work/job/career etc...
Currently now showing: Margreet Scrubbing Floors
Margreet
At 08:36 PM 1/18/96 JST, Stephen R. Friberg wrote:
> I think the unemployment is about 1%,
>an all time high, but nothing like the American one of 5%, considered
>to be low.
>Steve
>
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 15:48:29 -0800 (PST)
From: esfan hesari
To: talisman@INDIANA.EDU
Subject: Unsubscribe
Please unsubscribe me till further notice.
Thank you.
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 16:16:12 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: RE: Fat lady.
Hi Guys,
>>I don't think that anyone was making jokes about fat women.
Tony
>> I think maybe you missed the thread... We were providing an explanation to
him as to the origin of the expression and how it became popularized in the
USA.
It had/has nothing to do with weight or dieting.
Burl
Got it.
Best,
Sandy
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 15:50:24 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Flat Tax and Baha'i Economics.
To: talisman@indiana.edu
The discussion on the Flat Tax proposal as a means of a fairer
Taxation system , is only of interest in that it is just another way
of obtaining more revenue for governments in the present day. It
has no really place in the future field of Baha'i Economics if the
basic nature of society is changed .
There are no Baha'i teachings on Economics . Frequently Baha'is
make the rather surprising statement the Baha'i economic
solutions to the World's economic problems . In a workable
form that an economist could apply and utilize that is incorrect .
As a result the Universal House of Justice in the future will have
to develop based on Spiritual principles , the methodology that
will coordinate the World's Economic affairs . The guide by
which the field of Baha'i Economics will be created is no doubt
based on the concepts enshrined in the Huquq'llah .
Economics are the allocation of limited resources to the
unlimited wants of Society . It is offering options to regulate the
wants of society to society's limited needs that Macro-
Economists essentially do . The Western world has created a
Society that is primarily fueled by the unfulfilled wants of its
members . We call it consumerism ; the only regulation of such
wants being supply and demand in the pure form . A classic
approach is by leaving the market place to decide then a correct
equilibrium between supply and demand will occur . Some
Economists have proposed that all government services should be
offered in such a manner . Getting away from the concept of the
welfare state totally allowing market forces to work . This of
course is based on the ill-founded notion that all are employed
and have the means to purchase such services
The old Soviet model basically offered in return for your labor
guaranteed care from the womb to the grave with the State
owning all . The Socialist model that we saw operate in Europe
initially , offered womb to grave care but used a more mixed
economy in terms of ownership of business and housing .
The USA model in theory is committed to no public ownership
and the regime of the market-place ruling through private
ownership. In reality there is a fairly high degree of public
ownership in the USA . The public welfare system in the United
States does cover the poorest elements of the society with a womb
to grave coverage in theory , but in practice fails to provide the
reality and security of such coverage .
Economics which is the oldest of the social sciences was
concerned with Economic development from its genesis . It was
from the need to develop government economic strategy in
England as the first industrial society . That theoretical models
developed balancing wants to resources . The prime
understanding being the greed of man as the determining factor
in the shaping the economic measures embarked upon by
Governments . An individual human being is a unit of
productivity for society . How much imput can that unit give the
society and how little output does the society have to give to
obtain that unit's imput . A simple example of this is a state
retirement pension system . Bismarck in Prussia started the first
national pension system in modern times < I know the Incas had
one > but the starting age was well above the normal age of
death .you pay for it but you do not get it . Currently in the USA
and other countries the state pension systems are coming under
great pressure because people are living far long than was
originally forecasted.
The reason that the Flat Tax offers an attractive approach. It
has been considered the easiest tax on wealth to collect . The unit
earns : the unit is taxed , then the unit spends : the unit is taxed .
With the European value added tax system which is a very
sophisticated flat tax every transaction is taxed at the first point
of sale and every point thereafter . This has resulted in higher tax
revenues for governments . A Flat tax on income , Industry
hates. Tax avoidance by Corporations is of course legendary a
flat tax would impact them immediately . Although low wage
earners would be caught in the Flat tax web so would the present
very high earners who ensure by tax avoidance methods they pay
zero or very low tax rates . For that reason some Economists
suggest it is a fairer tax collection method than the whole battery
of taxes that governments use at present to collect tax revenues .
The question Baha'ms should concern themselves with ; is why
are governments placing world-wide a higher tax burden upon
the people . not is this tax fairer than the other . The truth is
there is no real justice in the manner that taxes are collected and
then squandered by the Governments of the World . We see the
contradiction of taxes being collected under the umbrella of social
engineering , yet being spent on anything but that . Which is why
perhaps we all need to read and study the statement : 'The
Prosperity of Humankind ' from the UniversaL House of Justice.
Because Economics has primarily concerned itself as a discipline
with social economic development . It can be regarded in some
aspects , as the science of understanding human greed and
exploiting it . The balancing of limited resources to unlimited
wants is not in accordance with Baha'i teachings . Economists of
the future , and Baha'is I suggest in this field now , have the
possibility exploring the balancing of unlimited resources to
limited needs . That will cause a major revolution in Economic
thinking.
Still what else did the Blessed Beauty come for if not to create a
society of transformed and advanced human beings for whom
greed and selfishness will be repugnant .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 16:29:27 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: flat tax and foreign-earned exclusion
Dear Talismans,
And there is a proposal now to end the "foreign-earned exclusion" for
Americans living and working aboard. This means that the poor pioneers will
not only have to pay full taxes in the country in which they reside, but
will also have to pay full American taxes on their income as well--double
taxation.
The US is the only country which requires its citizens living overseas to
file and pay tax on foreign owned income.
If this new 'reform' is passed, the life of the pioneer will become even more
difficult...
Sandy
=END=
[end of 1/18/96 session]
Talisman emails received 1/19/96
---------------------------------------------------------
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 96 17:39:13 PST
Subject: I-hop, u-hop, we all hop for better.
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Beyond even knowledge of the mystical, clearly LuAnne has shown
herself to be a Mujadhid of Pancakes. Walker Bros Apple pancake, the
one with the rolled up edges, outshines them all.
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/18/96
Time: 17:39:13
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 96 17:32:47 PST
Subject: Re: Ken Wilber
To: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Terry,
So good to hear rave reviews of Ken Wilbur's book, Sex, Ecology and
Spirituality.
And also pleasing to me that you knew I would love it.
Much of that turf is ground that I covered in my dissertation.
If you love that book, try my favorite book on that ground, one of
the core books of my dissertation, *Mind and Nature: a necessary
unity* by Gregory Bateson. And following that book, the one that came
out posthumously edited by his daughter, Mary Katherine Bateson. That
book is called *Angel's Fear: steps to an epistemology of the
sacred."* I'd love to hear your responses. Read M&N first, though.
be love,
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/18/96
Time: 17:32:47
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 96 12:00:27 PST
Subject: Re: Infallibility over Lunch
To: talisman@indiana.edu, George Gary ,
748-9178@mcimail.com, Jim Blake <0006596916@mcimail.com>
On Wed, 17 Jan 1996 09:46:31 -0500 (EST) George Gary wrote:
>
>The existence of a clearly defined administrative order sanctioned,
>protected, and guaranteed not to schism by the Author of the
Revelation
>Himself is something completely unique in religious history.
>
>It is this context that I believe that the principles of
consultation
>tie together many threads discussed on Talisman. The challenge is
this:
>Study the principles of consultation, unity, action, and further
>consultation as a method of arriving at truth.
>
>Also note this extract from Shoghi Effendi in a letter to an
individual
>believer on 1 November 1950 quoted in a letter from the NSA to all
LSA's
>on March 17, 1993.
>
>"The Baha'is are far from perfect, as individuals or when they serve
on
>elected bodies, but the system of Baha'u'llah is perfect and
graduallly
>the believers mature and the system will work better..."
>
>I have to go now, next I will provide more quotes about
consultation
>as a method of arriving at truth.
>
>
Thanks George.
My question -- to which this is a reply -- was How does Baha'ullah's
Revelation resolve the queston of where doe we find the deepest
truth: in the public, in the conscience of the individual or in the
individuals?
Juan's answer suggested that it lay in the individual as much as the
institutions and the that problem for us all was how to align the
different readings.
George's answer seems to suggest that it lies in the system which is
to be trusted more than the individual.
I suspect that the way I am asking the question must set up some
misleading disjunctions.
Philip
So, if I understand George's point correctly. Truth lies in the
system. And
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/18/96
Time: 12:00:28
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 17:52:37 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: Noorbakhsh.Monzavi@hibo.no, frlw@midway.uchicago.edu,
Masumian@mail.utexas.edu
Subject: Reuters 1/18/96 (fwd)
> 'IRAN' STORIES
>Transmission date: 96/01/17
> 1. 18:08 IRAN SAYS OIL ACCORD REACHED WITH KAZAKHSTAN
> 2. 17:42 IRANIAN ROUND-WORLD CYCLIST, 72, STUCK IN CONGO
> 3. 17:17 IRAN FREES LONGEST-HELD POLITICAL PRISONER -LAWYER
> 4. 16:41 ARMS FIRM DIRECTOR DENIES KNOWING OF IRAN LINK
>
>=START= XMT: 18:08 Wed Jan 17 EXP: 8 :00 Sat Jan 20
>
>
> Iran says oil accord reached with Kazakhstan
> TEHRAN, Jan 17 (Reuter) - A senior Iranian official said on Wednesday Iran
>and Kazakhstan had reached a deal allowing oil from the land-locked central
>Asian republic to be exported to the Gulf.
> First Vice President Hassan Habibi, quoted by the official news agency
>IRNA, said: ``Based on the agreements reached between Iran and Kazakhstan, the
>latter's oil will be exported to Persian Gulf countries after being refined in
>Tehran.''
> Habibi was speaking upon his return to Tehran after a three-day visit to
>Kazakhstan, the agency said.
> It was not clear if he was referring to a swap deal the two countries had
>been negotiating allowing Kazakh crude oil to be delivered by tanker to Iran's
>ports on the Caspian Sea in return for exports of Iranian crude to the Gulf.
> Habibi ``stressed that the outcome of his visit showed that the two
>countries are firmly in favor of long-term cooperation and of promoting mutual
>relations,'' IRNA added.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 17:42 Wed Jan 17 EXP: 7 :00 Sat Jan 20
>
>
> Iranian round-world cyclist, 72, stuck in Congo
> BRAZZAVILLE, Jan 17 (Reuter) - A 72-year-old Iranian cyclist touring the
>world to publicise the plight of children has been stuck in Congo for more than
>two months after a series of disasters.
> Feridoon Obahi, who left Iran on June 30, told Reuters on Wednesday he was
>waiting for the Iranian embassy in neighbouring Zaire to issue a new passport
>after his was stolen. He also needs a visa for his next stop, Gabon.
> Apart from the loss of his documents, his problems have included heavy
>rains, which rendered roads to Gabon impassable, and two missed planes.
> Obahi arrived in November in Congo, his 35th stop on a planned tour of 168
>countries.
> ``At 72, my life is over. My sole concern is children's lives. In Congo
>there are lots of rich people and companies who don't think of helping
>children,'' he said.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 17:17 Wed Jan 17 EXP: 7 :00 Sat Jan 20
>
>
> Iran frees longest-held political prisoner -lawyer
> NICOSIA, Jan 17 (Reuter) - Iran has freed a man widely known as its
>longest-held political prisoner, a Paris-based Iranian human rights activist
>said on Wednesday.
> ``Abbas Amir Entezam was taken by security agents from the house where he
>was held to a street in central Tehran and released last week,'' Abdolkarim
>Lahidji, a lawyer who has taken up Amir Entezam's defence abroad, told Reuters
>by phone from Paris.
> In November, Iranian officials said Amir Entezam, arrested in December 1979
>and later jailed for life for spying for the United States, was moved from
>prison and held under house arrest for health reasons.
> ``Agents just told Amir Entezam to go home. There has not been anything
>official issued,'' Lahidji said.
> Iranian officials were not immediately available for comment and there was
>no independent confirmation of the report.
> ``I believe the authorities have released him to avoid further
>embarrassments now that international human rights observers visit Iran
>again,'' he said.
> Tehran has allowed two representatives of the U.N. Human Rights Commission
>to visit Iran since December, lifting a four-year ban on such visits.
> The case of Amir Entezam, a former deputy prime minister in Iran's first
>cabinet after the February 1979 Islamic revolution and ambassador to Stockholm,
>has featured prominently in human rights reports on Iran in the past few years.
> An Islamic court convicted Amir Entezam of spying based on documents seized
>after militant students occupied the U.S. embassy in Tehran, holding over 50
>Americans hostage for 444 days.
> Amir Entezam has admitted meeting American officials but said these
>contacts were approved by Iranian government officials, including then prime
>minister Mehdi Bazargan.
> Bazargan resigned in disagreement over the seizure of the embassy.
> Opposition sources have said Amir Entezam was the victim of a drive by
>Islamic radicals to show that the moderate Bazargan faction was pro-Western.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 16:41 Wed Jan 17 EXP: 6 :00 Sat Jan 20
>
>
> Arms firm director denies knowing of Iran link
> LONDON, Jan 17 (Reuter) - A British arms company whose directors included
>ex-Conservative cabinet minister Jonathan Aitken had no knowledge that naval
>guns it was selling to Singapore were ultimately destined for Iran, the firm's
>former deputy managing director said on Wednesday.
> Retired Major-General Donald Isles told MPs investigating allegations of
>illegal arms sales to Iran in the 1980s that the firm, BMARC, assumed that
>Singapore was quite properly re-exporting the guns to countries in south-east
>Asia that were fighting drug runners.
> Giving evidence to parliament's trade and industry committee, Isles said he
>dismissed as ``tittle-tattle'' rumours on the BMARC shop floor in 1987 that the
>guns were headed for Iran.
> He said he reported the rumours to the managing director of BMARC's parent
>company at the time, Swiss firm Oerlikon-Buehrle, and was assured there was no
>substance to them.
> ``I was fairly relaxed about this because I had not received any
>information from any department of HMG which might have suggested that anything
>manufactured by BMARC was ultimately reaching Iran,'' Isles, formerly
>director-general of army weapons at the MOD, said in a written submission.
> Questioned by MPs, Isles said Aitken, who joined BMARC, attended board
>meetings but Iran was never discussed.
> ``He would know nothing (about Iran). There was nothing to know,'' Isles
>said. ``There was no contract with Iran so there was nothing to know.''
> The committee launched its inquiry after Michael Heseltine, then trade
>secretary, told the House of Commons in June that cannons sold by BMARC
>probably ended up in Iran in breach of a British arms embargo.
> He said the diversion, which is also being investigated by Customs and
>Excise, was discovered by British intelligence between 1986 and 1988.
> Aitken resigned from the government soon after Heseltine's statement to
>pursue libel actions against the Guardian newspaper and Granada TV over
>allegations they made concerning his business dealings in the Middle East.
> Aitken has always insisted that he did not know the guns were destined for
>Iran.
> Isles's evidence was consistent with that of BMARC's former managing
>director, William McNaught, who appeared before the committee last month.
> But the chairman of the panel, Labour MP Martin O'Neill, noted that it was
>``in grave contradiction'' to answers given by former BMARC chairman Gerald
>James, who said it was common knowledge within the company that the guns were
>bound for Iran.
> James also told the committee last month that Isles, BMARC's main contact
>with the MOD, had assured the board that the contract had official approval.
> Isles said on Wednesday that he agreed completely with McNaught's
>description of James's testimony as a ``pack of lies.'' REUTER AW
>
>=END=
>
>
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 17:47:55 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: language, departures
To: talisman@indiana.edu
---- Begin Forwarded Message
Subject: language, departures
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Sender: owner-talisman@indiana.edu
Precedence: bulk
Status: U
My dear Linda
I do not need to hijack a UPS truck to deliver John's award . The UPS
girl thinks I am wonderful and would drive me herself if I asked her
sweet girl that she is . I will notify John privately of the nature of
his award . It is very honourable and adds great distinction to him .
you need to supply him with his slightest desire or need because of it.
Linda you are the one who described John as something slightly better
than St. Francis a liitle while ago . how did it go ;You were walking
in the woods with etc etc etc . The reason John did not stoke the fires
for your Sauna was because your personal 12 Shi'ite
Women rule mob were there as well. Group Sauna's may be your idea of
fun , but John had enough of that group 'Just a little 'Temp' marriage
Professor Walbridge with your Arabic grammar .I shudder to imagine what
they wouould have done to our beloved list Owner if you had had your
way . By the way you spell wear ,w. e. a. r.not where . Freudian slip
you are wearing them so you don't know where they are , very cute Linda
a play on words . Burl what is your view and Burl tell us about Linda's
music please .
Kindest Regards
Derek
I do hope that you won't be hijacking another UPS truck to hand deliver
John's
award, Derek. There was enough trouble the last time you did it. John
would
like to know what the initials stand for. But since he is the sort of
guy who
won't ask directions, he likewise won't ask this sort of question
publicly
either. I notice that, while everything I ever post on Talisman is
filed away
to be used against me later, John's flaws are carefully concealed. I
mentioned, for example, that John was very remiss in his duties of
keeping the
fire stoked so that I could have a very hot sauna when we were in the
north
woods. Instead I was quite chilly. Still, he is to receive a reward
for his
husbandly endurance. This truly is sexism at its worst. And for the
last
time, Derek, I don't where black and white Ninja suits! Otherwise,
everything
is fine. Love, Linda
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 21:51:26 -0500
Message-Id: <960118213923_400720562@mail04.mail.aol.com>
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Fwd: Abdu'l-Baha' and America
In a message dated 96-01-18 11:05:48 EST, Alethinos writes:
<< When dealing with the misconceptions and distortions that have shackled
the Baha'i community in America - held in a statis essentially - for so long
it is necessary to look at the image portrayed of Abdu'l-Baha' in our
*culture*. It is an image closely related to the image of Christ portrayed in
many denominations.
By this is meant that often we see an image of Abdu'l-Baha conveyed to us
that is two-dimensional. And this image that we do see - that is stressed
repeatedly in books, classes, speeches etc is a very passive one. All those
qualities which have been, for thousands of years associated with the female
(as Joseph Campbell and others have pointed out) are the ones that are
repeatedly *played up* in various settings in our Baha'i culture. There is
little balance offered of the *active* elements of the Master; except when it
suits the occasion. That usually entails someone standing on a platform and
trying to convince everyone to rush out into the streets to teach (as if the
Master actually did this.) We are given the impression that Abdu'l-Baha stood
on stages and in churches around the country and *invited* everyone to
*become Baha'i*.
But most the time we see His *soft* nature emphasized. How sweet He was to
the children; how kind to the elderly and poor; how sensitive He was to
everyone around Him. He has been sythesized into this wonderful old fellow
that you would expect to see coming down Walton's Mountian.
And while there is little doubt that He was all these things and more,
what is so odd is that while He was here in America esp. He was a constant
source of bemused embarassment for many of the Friends because of those
actions that catagorically get glossed over or washed out through repeated
shallow reference.
He was very agressive. In a country that was in seeing a huge resurgence
of racism and prejudice He spoke out and acted out. There are numerous
examples but one mentioned here and sriously regarded should suffice.
When he was at the home of Ali Khan - the Persian Charge' d' affaires in
Washington D.C. there was a dinner being given in His honor. There were many
very influential people coming. In those days the setting of the dinner table
was a strategic affair. Everyone had to be placed just so - matters of rank,
popularity, who got along with who, etc., etc., were of the utmost
importantance.
Of course those familiar with this story know how it goes. Louis Gregory
was visiting the Master at the Khan's home. When dinner approached all were
informed. The Master was upstairs with Louis. Ali Khan knew the political
score - as did Louis. As the Master was led downstairs Louis knew he would
try and slip out the back. It would not do at all to be seen in the dining
area. No black man would be in such an area at such a time unless he was a
servent.
When the Master was about to sit down He looked around so innocently and
asked, clearly, "where is Louis?" You must place yourself there - beside Ali
and his lovely American wife, especially. Abdu'l-Baha' asked again, in a
loud, clear and wonderfully polite yet firm voice, "Where is My Loius?!" Ali
knew there was no choice. The guests of course had no idea who this Louis
was. But Ali went to fetch him.
Then as if this were not enough as Louis and Ali were coming down the
stairs the Master began to re-arrange the seating order. He then had Loius
Gregory sit at His right, in the seat of honor. And then, as if nothing odd,
nothing monumental had occurred He smiled and sat down.
I would suggest that anyone who has not read, or not read in a long while
the book "To Move the World" might do so. There are some historical glitches
in it (Helen Bishop has told me of a few that she knew of personally - having
been there) but over-all it is a good book. And this passage alone bears
studying and really considering.
What the Master did was socially and politically outrageous. It was on the
same level as anything Gandhi was doing at the moment in South Africa. More
so. Here was a man, a stranger who was travelling the high social road of an
emerging superpower and he sweetly yet boldly tossed ice cold water in
everyone's face there at that table that day. This is not the action of a
timid darling old grandpa. This is the action of a shrewd-minded iconoclast
who knew exactly the effect His actions would have, knew the possible social
repercussions and did it anyway.
He did it because it was just. He did it because He was sending a
desperate message to the American Baha'is that while wisdom is appreciated
the wisdom that stifles action and mums the voice is not.
We have what I would suggest is slective amnesia with regard to the
Master's life and actions. There are many stories scattered through the works
on His life, esp. here is America that bear witness that this was a Man
desperately trying to awaken the conscience of the Baha'is in a time that is,
odd as it may sound only slightly more socially constricting than today. For
all of America's wild outlandish behavior it is a culture that demands
conformity while wearing the guise of non-conformity. Advertisers sieze on
this by stressing that we purchase cars, clothes, perfumes that will enhance
our individuality (by mimicking millions of others.)
In loking to tear down the misconceptions and attitudes that hold us back
as a Community we might re-visit Abdu'l-Baha's life - this time with an eye
for the spiritual revolutionary that clearly stands there waiting to be seen.
Jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com >>
---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj: Abdu'l-Baha' and America
Date: 96-01-18 11:05:48 EST
From: Alethinos
To: talisman@indiana.edu
When dealing with the misconceptions and distortions that have shackled
the Baha'i community in America - held in a statis essentially - for so long
it is necessary to look at the image portrayed of Abdu'l-Baha' in our
*culture*. It is an image closely related to the image of Christ portrayed in
many denominations.
By this is meant that often we see an image of Abdu'l-Baha conveyed to us
that is two-dimensional. And this image that we do see - that is stressed
repeatedly in books, classes, speeches etc is a very passive one. All those
qualities which have been, for thousands of years associated with the female
(as Joseph Campbell and others have pointed out) are the ones that are
repeatedly *played up* in various settings in our Baha'i culture. There is
little balance offered of the *active* elements of the Master; except when it
suits the occasion. That usually entails someone standing on a platform and
trying to convince everyone to rush out into the streets to teach (as if the
Master actually did this.) We are given the impression that Abdu'l-Baha stood
on stages and in churches around the country and *invited* everyone to
*become Baha'i*.
But most the time we see His *soft* nature emphasized. How sweet He was to
the children; how kind to the elderly and poor; how sensitive He was to
everyone around Him. He has been sythesized into this wonderful old fellow
that you would expect to see coming down Walton's Mountian.
And while there is little doubt that He was all these things and more,
what is so odd is that while He was here in America esp. He was a constant
source of bemused embarassment for many of the Friends because of those
actions that catagorically get glossed over or washed out through repeated
shallow reference.
He was very agressive. In a country that was in seeing a huge resurgence
of racism and prejudice He spoke out and acted out. There are numerous
examples but one mentioned here and sriously regarded should suffice.
When he was at the home of Ali Khan - the Persian Charge' d' affaires in
Washington D.C. there was a dinner being given in His honor. There were many
very influential people coming. In those days the setting of the dinner table
was a strategic affair. Everyone had to be placed just so - matters of rank,
popularity, who got along with who, etc., etc., were of the utmost
importantance.
Of course those familiar with this story know how it goes. Louis Gregory
was visiting the Master at the Khan's home. When dinner approached all were
informed. The Master was upstairs with Louis. Ali Khan knew the political
score - as did Louis. As the Master was led downstairs Louis knew he would
try and slip out the back. It would not do at all to be seen in the dining
area. No black man would be in such an area at such a time unless he was a
servent.
When the Master was about to sit down He looked around so innocently and
asked, clearly, "where is Louis?" You must place yourself there - beside Ali
and his lovely American wife, especially. Abdu'l-Baha' asked again, in a
loud, clear and wonderfully polite yet firm voice, "Where is My Loius?!" Ali
knew there was no choice. The guests of course had no idea who this Louis
was. But Ali went to fetch him.
Then as if this were not enough as Louis and Ali were coming down the
stairs the Master began to re-arrange the seating order. He then had Loius
Gregory sit at His right, in the seat of honor. And then, as if nothing odd,
nothing monumental had occurred He smiled and sat down.
I would suggest that anyone who has not read, or not read in a long while
the book "To Move the World" might do so. There are some historical glitches
in it (Helen Bishop has told me of a few that she knew of personally - having
been there) but over-all it is a good book. And this passage alone bears
studying and really considering.
What the Master did was socially and politically outrageous. It was on the
same level as anything Gandhi was doing at the moment in South Africa. More
so. Here was a man, a stranger who was travelling the high social road of an
emerging superpower and he sweetly yet boldly tossed ice cold water in
everyone's face there at that table that day. This is not the action of a
timid darling old grandpa. This is the action of a shrewd-minded iconoclast
who knew exactly the effect His actions would have, knew the possible social
repercussions and did it anyway.
He did it because it was just. He did it because He was sending a
desperate message to the American Baha'is that while wisdom is appreciated
the wisdom that stifles action and mums the voice is not.
We have what I would suggest is slective amnesia with regard to the
Master's life and actions. There are many stories scattered through the works
on His life, esp. here is America that bear witness that this was a Man
desperately trying to awaken the conscience of the Baha'is in a time that is,
odd as it may sound only slightly more socially constricting than today. For
all of America's wild outlandish behavior it is a culture that demands
conformity while wearing the guise of non-conformity. Advertisers sieze on
this by stressing that we purchase cars, clothes, perfumes that will enhance
our individuality (by mimicking millions of others.)
In loking to tear down the misconceptions and attitudes that hold us back
as a Community we might re-visit Abdu'l-Baha's life - this time with an eye
for the spiritual revolutionary that clearly stands there waiting to be seen.
Jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 96 19:13 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Into the Mystic
Linda (Shi'ite Delight) Walbridge, bride of a towering intellectual
hero, has been utzing me to attend the Mystic Hoe-Down & Hokey-Pokey
Convention at Bosch. I became interested when I heard Juan was giving a
presentation entitled "Spin-Cycle Spirituality: Using a Whirlpool Washer as
Catalyst for Mystical Experiences," but I later learned that was an
anti-intellectual rumor started by the powerless elite. I also head
something about Terry Culhane sewing us all red robes to use in the group
baptism ceremony, but I'm not one for "Organized Fun with the Holy Spirit."
The true test came when I heard that Linda intends to bring her entire
Montovani collection -- the musical magic-mushroom of her vision quest - -
and insist that we all become bonded via his Greatest Hits. Once again:
Spirituality on *her* terms. This is the same stunt she pulled at Louhelen
back in '78 when she insisted that Andre Kostelanetz' "Windmills of My Mind"
held the key to understanding Neoplatonism and piped it into the dining hall
during desert. She was upbraided by many mighty morphin members of several
institutions, and sulked all the way to the Flint, Michigan International
Airport.
Britt and I would love to come to Bosch and see for ourselves just how
spiritual you kids can get, but we fear it may be like Guru Maharaji's
Millenium '73. Honestly, if Linda (9 1/2 Ninjas) Walbridge brings Montovani
on CD, 8-track, vinyl, or cassette, our prejudices will keep us at home. I
would rather be trapped in an elevator with Zamphir, Mater of the Pan Flute,
whistling Tommy Roe's "Hooray for Hazel."
Burl
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 20:21:21 -0800
To: SFotos@eworld.com, talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re: RE: Fat lady.
Yah, I heard that one too but we are making jokes about fat women.... The
famous opera singer in a Viking Costume was a large woman. And then this
happened to me years ago, where some little boy in the elevator... I happen
to get on, and he says to his mother, Is she going to sing to us Mom???
His mom was a twig of a person, one good wind storm and she'd blow away and
I could tell so was he going to be too.. Can I help my heritage for large
bones and body building on top of that??? I still laugh.... but we have to
stop the sterotypes. It does hurt!
Margreet
Bench Pressing 120 lbs.
At 04:16 PM 1/18/96 -0800, SFotos@eworld.com wrote:
>
>Hi Guys,
>
>>>I don't think that anyone was making jokes about fat women.
>Tony
>>> I think maybe you missed the thread... We were providing an explanation to
>him as to the origin of the expression and how it became popularized in the
>USA.
>It had/has nothing to do with weight or dieting.
>Burl
>
>Got it.
>
>Best,
>Sandy
>
=END=
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 22:38:18 -0600 (CST)
From: Robert Lee Green
To: "talisman@indiana.edu"
Subject: Fwd: Taking Offense ... an Editorial (fwd)
This seems appropriate here too :-)
robrt green
Dearly loved friends;
The enclosed article was written for Baha'i Canada
quite a few years ago .... by a member of the NSA of
the Baha'is of Canada .... and over the past year and a
half, I have posted it twice on Baha'i Women. It is to
do with Taking Offense. Well, I have just been asked if
I would post it again .... and so, here it is.
Lovingly,
Karin Ferguson
***************************************************************************
Taking Offense
It is deeply disturbing to see the ease with which numbers
of Baha'is appear to get "hurt" and at the tendency of other
believers to "sympathize" with the one hurt and show their "love"
by hardening their hearts against the one who presumably caused the hurt.
'Abdu-l Baha asks us not to offend anyone. True!
He also asks us not to take offense! He requires us to regard
our 'enemies' as friends. He asks us to 'see' them as friends. Why?
Because these hurts are the tests which require us to grow if we
are to be steadfast in the Cause. They are the tests which correct
the direction of our growth, (like pruning shrubs) and test the sincerity
of our desire to love all mankind.
He requires us to love the people with all their shortcomings.
He said,"Do not look at the people for they are full of
shortcomings, but love them for the sake of God."
People who are warm and loving are very fortunate. People
who are cold and forbidding often hate themselves, are
already filled with guilt and fear and only a powerful and genuine
love which can thaw their frozen hearts can cure them.
What is "love" if it takes sides against them?
A log (in a fireplace) may appear to be burning but only
when the kindling is consumed can you tell if it has caught fire.
If we only "love" when we are being "loved" m we haven't caught fire.
To know this is to know a bitter truth about ourselves, but it is one
worth knowing. It is a very dangerous condition to be in -
a completely dependent one. What is the cure? To completely
immerse ourselves in the Ocean of Writings; to pray and beseech
God to kindle the fire of love and attraction in our hearts;
to take action; to seek reconciliation; to serve the friends no matter
what the pain; to teach the Faith and direct the seeker to the Source
of love and illumination - which is the Revelation.
Many people took offense at 'Abdu'l-Baha Himself. Was the
Perfect Exemplar responsible for their being offended?
In such a case it is clear that offense can be taken when none
was intended nor any cause given. "Abdu'l-Baha was the object
of the most despicable behaviour which men are capable of,
yet did He ever assume the role of a man offended? It is possible
to exercise the spiritual muscles of forebearance, forgiveness, mercy
and to refuse to take offense or be hurt. How do we know?
We know because 'Abdu'l-Baha did it, and if we are tempted to retort,
" but I am not an 'Abdu'l-Baha" , the obvious answer is " that
is evident, but He is still our example." And the one who "hurts"
us is also not an 'Abdu'l-Baha, but only trying, it is to be hoped,
to follow the same example as ourselves.
Baha'u'llah says that He desires to see us as one soul in many bodies.
The one who hurts us is simply stuck on a different hurdle in
the spiritual race. And we, in being hurt, are stuck on another.
If we truly believe in the Oneness of Mankind, we must love wisely
enough to pray that we will both learn to take our separate
hurdles in our stride , and in the meantime, love, love, and love again.
Prepared for Baha'i Canada by E.Rochester
August. 1969
********************************************************************
Question: What happens if we leave out the power of Baha'u'llah
in any situation?
" Any evaluation of any situation that leaves out the power of Baha'u'llah
to change the atmosphere and climate is meaningless...........
If the Baha'is will but do their part, however unpromising the prospect,
Baha'u'llah is able to open doors and change conditions in ways far beyond
our understanding.
What we need is a greater realization on the part of the believers of the
Power of Baha'u'llah to reinforce the efforts of those who serve Him, of
His promise to do so, and the impotence of all our deeds without this
Divine assistance."
Universal House of Justice to NSA Germany - end of 9 Year Plan
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+
"There is no force of heaven or earth which can affect them if they place
themselves wholly under the influence of the Holy Spirit and under its
guidance."
Shoghi Effendi. August 1957 -to an Individual believer.
=END=
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 08:23:35+030
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: taxes and military spending
Dear Friends:
A comment has been made on the reluctance of people to close military bases
and military spending. I agree that the amount of money spent on war
machinery globally is obscene. But, there has been an investment of time
and career in the military machinery (everything from being a soldier, a
soldier's family, to making machinery, aircraft, maintenance, military
police, intelligence, etc.) and to just close these institutions would mean
a tremendous loss of employment, family security, and income. What effect
would that have on the American economy? What about the Global economy?
Perhaps a question to be asked is how to phase it out. How to you absorb
all those people in retraining programs (necessarily paid for by tax
dollars?), disuade would be young soldiers coming up, and redirect skills
into the private sector? Would it be possible to re-direct some of the
military effort into philanthropic endeavours? Would you "donate" some of
that machinery and maintenance to a U.N. permanent peacekeeping and
emergency force? Do we get to buy a tank and put it on the front lawn as a
planter to grace our collection of whirly-gigs? How do you scale down the
military expenditure? What effect will that have in other parts of the
world where the United States is largely responsible for a huge part of U.N.
Peacekeeping forces and machinery?
I am speaking as a non-American (and therefore relatively ignorant of your
system), and as a mother who would dearly love to see all war end, and
military forces unnecessary, and as a human being who is grateful for the
intervention (little and late as it is) which can help stop the genocide
happening in certain parts of the world, and who has had an opportunity to
see them in action a bit. (It does present a quandry for me, because
although I abhor war and the need for force, it is also a recognition that
at this time in our history, we still need forces of intervention in
horrific situations...there is still, unfortunately, a role for the military
in our world.) It does strike me that although this dialogue is in the
context of your present, proposed and idealized tax system in the United
States, it is a very basic question to global economy and progress.
Here in Uganda, the government has been trying to bring it's military and
government spending into a managable zone. It is called "retrenchment", and
is now also involving the civil servant sector. (I offer this not as a
solution, but as an observation of how one country has tried to deal with
this problem.) There have been a few attempts to set retrenched soldiers up
in a business, such as an old clay works, and give them an alternative.
This has met with some success, but there just aren't enough businesses
around that the government can "hand over" and certainly little money for
retraining. The retrenched soldiers and civil servants are suffering, and
often causing suffering and a heavy financial and emotional burden to their
families and villages until they can figure out what to do. Many of them
were not trained to do anything but take what they wanted at the end of a
gun. Many of them have made successful re-entry into society in some form,
with the help of their families. Many have died of AIDS they contracted
during their soldier years.
There are a lot of facets to this question which take some serious pulling
together.
If you can answer these questions, you get one of Derek's awards (a lifesize
doll of Sherman (complete with simulated cat fur guaranteed to make you
sneeze) which meows when you squeeze it and purrs when you stroke it, and
pees into its own kitty litter box when you put milk into its mouth with its
own squirrel shaped feeding bottle. It's eyes also light up when it's
special microchip brain recognizes the shape of a bird, batteries not
included), personally bestowed by the lovely Linda at the next Talisman
Roast (oops, sorry, I mean Bar-b-que)! That is not to mention a personal
nomination for the Nobel Peace Prize by John.
Love,
Bev.
=END=
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 00:50:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Kids' Views on Marriage
Dearest Talismanian Friends, Allah-u-Abha.
Beware! The following is not the usual intellectual (or
anti-intellectual) piece you are so used to finding on Talisman. But i
could not resist sending it to you all anyway. It is actually quite
amusing. Have a great day!
Regards,
Cheshmak Farhoumand
Kid Wisdom Bits on marriage.
"Marriage is when you get to keep your girl and don't have to give
her back to her parents!"
-Eric, 6
"When somebody's been dating for a while, the boy might propose to
the girl. He says to her, 'I'll take you for a whole life, or at
least until we have kids and get divorced, but you got to do one
particular thing for me.' Then she says yes, but she's wondering
what the thing is and whether it's naughty or not. She can't wait to
find out."
-Anita, 9
How Does a Person Decide Whom to marry??
"You flip a nickel, and heads means you stay with him and tails means
you try the next one."
-Kally, 9
"My mother says to look for a man who is kind....That's what I'll
do....I'll find somebody who's kinda tall and handsome."
-Carolyn, 8
Concerning the Proper Age to Get Married...
"Eighty-four! Because at that age, you don't have to work anymore,
and you can spend all your time loving each other in your bedroom."
-Carolyn, 8
"Once I'm done with kindergarten, I'm going to find me a wife!"
-Bert, 5
How Did Your Mom and Dad Meet??
"They were at a dance party at a friend's house. Then they went for a
drive, but their car broke down...It was a good thing, because it
gave them a chance to find out about their values."
-Lottie, 9
"My father was doing some strange chores for my mother. They won't
tell me what kind."
-Jeremy, 8
What Do Most People Do on a Date??
"On the first date, they just tell each other lies, and that usually
gets them interested enough to go for a second date."
-Martin, 10
"Many daters just eat pork chops and french fries and talk about
love."
-Craig, 9
When Is It Okay to Kiss Someone??
"You should never kiss a girl unless you have enough bucks to buy her
a big ring and her own VCR, 'cause she'll want to have videos of the
wedding."
-Allan, 10
"Never kiss in front of other people. It's a big embarrassing thing
if anybody sees you....If nobody sees you, I might be willing to try
it with a handsome boy, but just for a few hours."
-Kally, 9
The Great Debate: Is It Better to Be Single or Married??
"You should ask the people who read Cosmopolitan!"
-Kirsten, 10
"It's better for girls to be single but not for boys. Boys need
somebody to clean up after them!"
-Anita, 9
"It gives me a headache to think about that stuff. I'm just a kid. I
don't need that kind of trouble."
-Will, 7
=END=
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 09:03:41 +0100
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: rk-mll@algonet.se (Marie-Louise Lundberg)
Subject: unsubscribe
=END=
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 09:30:50 -0600 (CST)
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Talisman" ,
"Bah=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=e1'=ed_Discuss?=" ,
" bahai-faith@bcca.org"
Esteemed Members of the Talisman List,
I told my I would refrain from participating in the discussion on the =
=B3legitimacy=B2 of homosexuality. I finally could not resist; =
because I have pondered it over the years, as simply a philosophic =
issue, and at the last, within my heart as a Baha=B9i.
Because of the most tender feelings of my brothers and sisters who =
find themselves in this difficult position I felt I must speak out. =
I feel I must take up this issue as a Baha=B9i and not indulge in any =
form of prejudice.
Baha=B9u=B9llah has said, =B3Were He to decree as lawful the things =
which from time immemorial had been forbidden, and forbid that which =
had, at all times, been regarded as lawful, to none is given the =
right to question His authority.=B2 (Gleanings p. 87) This certainly =
suggests that morals are mutable. Because from a philosophic =
standpoint =B3the Primal Will=B2 is the source of all being and thus =
moral realities are engendered on a higher plain. I agree with my =
beloved Juan that morality can change over time because as =
Baha=B9u=B9llah Himself has testified one can not consider themselves =
a believer without attesting to this.
Where we differ is on the question of individual conscience, and I =
believe it clear from this passage that Baha=B9u=B9llah has ruled =
this out. In this weighty passage Baha=B9u=B9llah has, provided us =
with a =B3technical definition=B2 of faith. Earlier in the Writing =
He states, =B3Upon it must depend the acceptance of every goodly =
deed=B2 (=B3He shall not be asked of his doings=B2). So even moral =
but blind acts are not acceptable. As a result, every act is =
conditioned upon His good pleasure.
Now let=B9s turn to something more concrete. Take the example of =
wine drinking. I have heard it said, most reasonably ,when teaching =
the Faith, =B3Wine drinking is harmless if done in moderation=B2 and =
I have also heard the same from my =B3Marijuana smoking brethren=B2. =
It seems, though, now, the genie of drugs can not be put back in the =
bottle and the world society, as a result of very well-intentioned =
people, is afflicted with drug taking. The ill-effects are very =
clear now but still the debate rages on. The purpose of this example =
is to demonstrate a =B3social good=B2 that sheds light upon the =
subject of the =B3individual ability to handle things properly=B2. In =
my most humble opinion, I submit, we are asked to sacrifice our =
individual predilections for the love of Baha=B9u=B9llah and the =
social good in the same way that wine-drinkers and the like are =
called to.
Baha=B9u=B9llah is =B3the Divine physician=B2 his prescription for a =
healthy social body in this dispensation has been formulated. This =
is my view and I pray it will not offend anyone=B9s sensibilities but =
I had to =B3as an act of conscience=B2 express it.
With all my love
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 09:48:07 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: taxes and military spending
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Don Peden" , "Talisman"
Well said Don!
My point was that everyone deserves a living wage and the poor must be
protected. What disturbs me is what I perceive as modern capitalism
asking every one to scurry like mackerels after a cigar butt dropped by
the wealthy. Why else would people urge another base be kept open? The
Baha'i Faith teaches a spiritual solution to the economic problems of
people. Thus a change of heart and behavior must take place. It can't
be defined as of yet, but it will, and the wonderful experts in that
field, I hope, will help guide us in that.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 11:15:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: notes to Baha'u'llah's Ode
I append the last, long substantive note Baha'u'llah wrote on his "Ode of
the Dove," once he had returned to Baghdad, presumably in the latter half
of 1856. It is clear from this note that he was criticized for having
written and distributed the "Ode of the Dove," probably by Babi partisans
of `Ali, and that some of the impetus for appending notes to the poem was
to answer his critics and clarify verses that had been misunderstood.
Baha'u'llah appears to allude here to his disappointment in Azal (who
during Baha'u'llah's absence 1854-56 in Sulaymaniyyah had committed a
number of enormities, including a further attempt on the life of the
shah, entanglement in mafia-like gangs in the shrine cities, and marrying
and then discarding a widow of the Bab--an act strictly forbidden in the
Bayan). The restrictions Baha'u'llah attempted to place on Babi teaching
and spread of the Writings are also apparent, and these derived from a
new emphasis on "wisdom" in teaching the Faith. The last part of this
note is missing in printed versions and is derived from a manuscript sent
me by the World Centre.
This is a provisional translation; it has not been checked by other
scholars and may contain errors. It is supplied informally and not meant
for citation or public use, only for private study.
My entire retranslations of the verse and notes of the "Ode of the Dove"
has now been digitalized and revised. If there is demand, I could post
the entire text to the list. I'm grateful to Alma, Frank and others who
made suggestions for improvements. It may be, as several friends
suggested, that free verse would be a more appropriate way to approach
such a long, complex poem. Maybe I'll give that a try this summer . . .
At least, my versions may help future translators come to a textus receptus.
From Baha'u'llah's "Ode of the Dove:"
117. Thou dost forsake the Unseen's light, in what
Thou wreakest in thyself--and My works lose!
117. This effulgence is meant. It is an effulgence from the luminaries
of the morn of Reality, and from the dawning rays of the sun of
sanctity and splendor. It rose from the sun of Being, the moon of the
Beloved and the Point of the Adored One, and shone forth upon the
realities of all contingent beings and the inmost essences of all
creatures. Then, through droplets from the elixir of divine Being and
pure spray from the inexhaustible Fountain, this effulgence honored
and adorned the very atoms of all existing things, and all those of
which mention hath been made, with everlasting, perpetual life. It thus
invested them with the mantle of imperishability and clothed them in
the vestments of exaltation and the robes of eternity.
But in spite of all this, we have departed from this greatest of
signs and this most great bestowal, and from these inextinguishable
lights and imperishable gifts, nor have we been steadfast in this mighty
handiwork, these perfect honors, this ancient glory, this unending
grace. We have remained shut away from the sanctified breaths of the
Holy Spirit and the fragrant breezes wafting from the glow of
intimacy, to such an extent that were a thousand Davids of Existence
to serenade the dusty bones of mankind with psalmody and songs of
beatitude in fresh and wondrous melodies, these latter would never stir
nor move an iota. For all readiness for the descent of compassion
from the heaven of divine Power hath vanished, and all have been
imprisoned in the cage of the body and dazed by evil passions. They
have swooned with heedlessness in such wise that they shall never
regain consciousness nor reach the station of attainment and nearness,
which is the original goal. What a sign of grief and regret we must
breathe, for we have not been led by the quintessence of Guidance, nor
have we emulated the essence of the Ancient of Days. We have
neither advanced toward the Sinai of His proximity, nor have we
opposed His deniers. We have not patterned ourselves according to
the attractions of His Holy Spirit, nor have we rendered the lights of
His delight our exemplars. The quintessence of emulation is
martyrdom, to which honor we have failed to attain; and it is to clad
oneself in the robe of steadfastness, which we have failed to
accomplish. Aye, we are surrounded by the Lake of His Essence, yet
we seat ourselves and await a drink of water. We dwell in the shade
of the Sun of His Eternity, and call for a Lamp! Such is the case with
this Servant, with mankind, and with everyone in every land.
If even a flame from this Lote-Tree were to blaze forth, we
would not thereby be ignited, but would, rather, arise to extinguish it!
Happy is he who clothes himself in the garb of equity for this battle. If
thou dost acquire this most great attribute, thou wilt most certainly
attain to the most glorious bounty. This is that invisible golden thread
by whose movement all creation is set in motion, and by whose
quiescence all who are in the realms of the Worshipped One are
brought to a standstill. The breast must then be purified and cleansed
from corrupt, groundless and satanic fancies, that the wondrous
countenance of Equity might lift up its head from behind the mountains
of Qaf.
Thereafter shall we experience the everlasting assaults of
rapture and the divine ecstasies of yearning through the ruffling of the
wings of the doves of eternity and the hands of the spirits of splendor.
In the fluttering of love shall we then find rest and repose. This is the
ultimate goal and the least of His stations. We must in every matter
shun all else, which derives from the opposers of the eternal Truth. It
is impermissible for us to sit and socialize even for a moment, for by
God, the corrupt souls are melting away the pure ones, even as the
blaze of dry firewood and cold, white snow. Be not thou among those
whose hearts grow hard at the mention of God, the Creator.
That which hath been mentioned in commentary upon this
verse was as a kindness to the gaze of the opposers and a mercy to the
eyes of the hateful, that they might not understand it according to their
evil passions, nor interpret it thereby. These verses were spoken at the
time when We travelled into exile in the lands of the Ottoman Empire.
No one among the divines and eminent men of that realm made any
protest or objection. But from the railing of this people, I believe that
even after this explanation they will raise objections and by reason of
self-delusion will become wayfarers on the path of vain imagination,
error, idle fancy and blindness. To God is the setting out on the path,
whether thankfully or ungratefully, whether advancing or fleeing away.
When the seal of a perfume bottle is removed, those with a sense of
smell can perceive the scent, whereas those suffering from rheum will
remain deprived. Were all to be stricken with the malady of rheum,
this would not indicate a fault in the rose-water of Eternity, nor would
the musk of Cathay thereby be brought into disrepute.
Praise be to Thee, O God, My God! I call upon Thee at that
time, a time in which Thou didst send down upon Me the evidences of
divine sorrow, which, were they to overflow into the universe, would
cause the seen and the unseen world to pass out of existence, in such
wise that the spirit well-nigh departed in its agitation. By Thy Might,
and Thine invisible Eternality, were I to breathe a word of it, the hearts
would burn in their inmost essences, the heavens and all that is in them
would be cleft asunder and the earth and all that is upon it would be
devastated. Alas, alas, thereby the fragrance of constancy would never
be diffused from the garden of glory, nor would the everlasting breezes
be wafted from the city of splendor. The nightingale of pre-existence
would never warble upon the crimson twigs, nor would the chanticleer
of grandeur raise his voice in the kingdom of exaltation.
By the glory of Him Whom Thou has glorified and made the
Manifestation of Thy Divinity and the Fountainhead of Thy supreme
Power, I have forgotten every mention, and all the wonders of Thy
knowledge, and the comprehensive signs of Thy wisdom which Thou
didst teach Me aforetime. Nay, I was forgetful and oblivious, as
though I were not in the realms of the seen. And by the Lives of `Ali
and Muhammad, and by the pure Spirit, the compassion of the
Merciful, the attraction of Mahmud, the distraction of Ahmad, the
secret of the Beloved, the delight of the Pure One, I like not to remain
in this kingdom even a second. And God was behind Me as My
witness.
O people of the Bayan, and whoso draweth nigh to God and
His verses in the Living One of Utterance: Give ear to that which the
Dove of the divine Essence doth warble in the utmost rapture,
overwhelmed with the love of God and with yearning for Him, having
died to the self and now living in God, the Mighty, the Powerful.
Fear God, and do not differ concerning His cause. Worship
naught else but Him, and wreak not corruption in the land of
knowledge. Accept the counsel proffered ye by this Servant, upon
Whom the darts of the divine decree have rained down from the
crimson cloud, in such wise that none but God can ever estimate their
number, or fully perceive them. O people, be merciful, fear God and
devour not this Servant in the flames of your own selves. Torture Him
not with the idle fancies of your base desires, and do not deliver Him
into the prison of your heedlessness. Do not slay Him with the swords
of your hypocrisy, nor banish Him with the spears of your injustice and
malice. For He hath but summoned ye to God, and shall never call ye
unto anyone save the Manifestations of His Self, the Mirrors of His
inmost Essence, and Him Who standeth in the stead of His Cause
itself.
Say: Fear God, and oppose Him not, nor transgress the
bounds of His counsel. Know yet that there is among ye one who
worketh corruption in this good and blessed land. The malediction of
God be upon him, and whosoever raiseth his hand without the
approval or permission of God, or stirreth in disobedience to Him.
Such a one is deprived of God's compassion. Whosoever taketh his
hands from his pockets and followeth his selfish passions, casting the
Cause of God behind his back, hath removed himself from the shadow
of Providence, though he dwell in the vicinity of the shrine of God.
Whoso submitteth to his base desires and attributeth this to God hath
forfeited the garden of His loving-kindness, and whoso faileth to
detach himself from all who are in the heavens and on earth shall never
be able to enter the kingdom of heaven. For he who hath in his heart
aught else but the love of God shall never step foot in His city. The
vengeance of the Lord be upon whoso teacheth anyone without His
permission, and the awful might of God be upon whoso distributeth
His words to any soul without His leave.
=END=
From: AGhosh@uh.edu
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 10:41:20 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Pioneering in Indian reservations in Canada
To: talisman@indiana.edu
On completion of my Ph.D. in Mechanical Engineering I would like to
settle in or around an Indian reservation in Canada, preferrably in
the North-Western regions. Anybody who is interested in assisting me
please contact me at mece1e3@jetson.uh.edu. I will be writing to
the U.S. national office shortly after I have my consultation with
the LSA. My expected date of graduation is May 1996 and I will be
available from March 1997.
Love
Arindam
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 12:25:54 EST
Subject: from back yonder!
Hey! y'all,
Hope y'all doing mighty fine tday. Well, if it wernt for mah frend
Andy and Pyle I'be lying down on mah bed still. I shorr luv watchin
'em. That Pyle he lightin up mah face anyday. There ain't notting
that bother them feller. They shorr is mah best frend.
I heard y'all folks talken bout flat tax. Ther is one thang that
flat tax be doing fer shorr, putting them pooh folks flat on ther
back. Them rich folks, well' ain't nottin I'm gonna say bout 'em.
pooh, simpleton-redneck from back yonder,
Quanta
BTW, I'am doing just fine, thang yu.
=END=
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 11:43:21 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Flat Tax
Hello,
I am resposting part of my original message because it seems that
it was not clear.
____
"The idea sounds a bit like Huqquq'u'llah - some amount of
exemption under which no tax is paid and income is only taxed
once."
____
I stand by my observation that with regard to the two aspects
that I cited, the flat tax proposal is "a *bit* like Huqquq'u'llah".
A couple of other points:
1. As far as I know, no emprical evidence of the effects of
a flat tax as it has been proposed exists. And since I have
heard that no two Economists agree on anything, it seems --
and this the first I am using this word -- anti-intellectual
to dismiss the idea compeletly because some of the people who are
suggesting the idea also hold ideas with which many disagree.
2. If there were any referees on Talisman I think they would
blow the whistle when Abdul Baha's words with regard to
economics are used. The fact that He was right is irrelevant
within this context since it has been suggested in other
threads that 1) we don't have a clear understanding about
"infallibilty" and 2) some areas are outside the sphere of
the infallibity of the Head of the Faith.
[I hope no one is mistaking what I just said as disrespect
for Abdul Baha - I am suggesting that that line of reasoning,
using His writings on *economics* when one agrees with Him,
is abnormative.]
3. You may have heard this: how many University of Chicago
economists does it take to change a light bulb?
None - if the market forces deem it necessary, the light bulb
will change by itself.
I'm ready for the snowball fight - remember to take the effects of
the wind into account ;-)
regards,
sAmAn
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 12:55:21 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Abdu'l-Baha' and America
Have I mentioned before that Kalimat Press will soon publish a new account of
'Abdu'l-Baha's visit to America? It is titled 'ABDU'L-BAHA IN AMERICA: AGNES
PARSONS' DIARY. This is a very detailed eyewitness account which Agnes
Parsons kept of her time with the Master when he stayed with her in
Washington D.C. and in Dublin, New Hampshire, where she owned two summer
homes.
As it happens, Mrs. Parsons was present at the incident in Ali-Kuli Khan's
home--which was also the Persian Embassy--when 'Abdu'l-Baha insisted that
Louis Gregory be seated a luncheon. She barely mentions it, by the way.
But, we have taken care of that in footnotes. The book has been carefully
annotated by Richard Hollinger with historical and biographical information
and alternate accounts from Mahmud's Diary.
Sandra Hutchison (Richard's wife) has written a masterful introduction to
the book which is extremely useful and enlightening on its own. If I had an
electronic copy of it, I would post it on Talisman. But, maybe Richard has
one and can oblige us.
Anyway, the book is now at the printer and I suppose that it should hit
the streets in about six weeks or so. If you have a standing order, you will
get one automatically at a 20% discount. Hint. Hint.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 12:13:02 -0600 (CST)
From: Mark Foster
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Baha'i Studies Digest
Talismanians,
I believe that the Baha'i Studies Digest is now available. Subscribing to
it will mean that you will receive one long posting every day (containing
all the messages from the previous 24 hours).
Send this message to:
subscribe bahai-st-digest
To:
major@johnco.cc.ks.us
I cannot be sure that the digest is properly configured, since, due to
yesterday's ice and snow, and today's unseasonably cold temperatures, the
college is closed and I cannot, therefore, contact the Internet
administrator. I am crossing my fingers .
Mark (Foster)
=END=
Date: 19 Jan 96 15:18:27 EST
From: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
To:
Subject: Health for Humanity
Dear Talismanians,
Just wanted to respond to a question a few days ago -- from who I cannot
for the life of me remember -- leaky brain pan or early Alzheimer's, you
choose -- about Health for Humanity and its history, work, etc.
Health for Humanity had its start in the Chicago area in 1991 when a small
handful of Baha'i and non-Baha'i (how I hate that term -- suggestion:
Talisman contest for a replacement, enter now!) health care professionals
got together to do a small social and economic development project.
The project (in Guyana) worked, the government there loved what the Baha'is
had to offer, the prime minister came to the US National Convention and
said nice things about the Baha'is, and H4H was born. Chartered under th
US tax code as a 501c3 tax-exempt charitable organization, run by a board
of directors, and ultimately directed by the US NSA, H4H has since run
projects in Eastern Europe, Africa, Central and South America, and here
on the domestic front, as well.
(Disclaimer: Teresa and I serve as the secretary and treasurer of the
West Coast chapter of H4H, so I'm biased in the organization's favor. Sue
me.) This group has accomplished a great deal in a few short years.
It has opened communications with health professionals, governments, heads
of health authorities and leaders of thought all over the globe; has
shipped entire hospitals to far-flung lands; works with poor and indigent
people in many lands; and has succeeded in putting our money (and in some
cases, other people's money, i.e. foundations) where our mouth is. Next
weekend Teresa and a whole bunch of West Coast H4Hers will make an
exploratory trip to Mexico, where we will try to set up a regularly-
staffed free clinic for the many Mexican people too poor to access health
care services. First, though -- and this makes my point -- the group will
spend a significant amount of time consulting with the local people to
determine their needs.
Any and all social and economic development projects might benefit from
such an approach. At H4H, we've found that such an approach guarantees
ongoing support, raises esteem, departs radically from the "rice
Christianity" method of providing needed services in exchange for
converts, and ultimately renders each project much more successful than
it could have been otherwise.
Six regional H4H groups now exist, open to all who would want to volunteer.
This sort of teaching via quiet example excites us very much, and its long-
term effects will, we hope, prove incalculable.
Love,
David
=END=
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 13:04:54 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: Noorbakhsh.Monzavi@hibo.no, frlw@midway.uchicago.edu,
Masumian@mail.utexas.edu
Subject: Reuters 1/19/96 (fwd)
> 'IRAN' STORIES
>Transmission date: 96/01/19
> 1. 09:37 IRAN HOLDS FUNERAL FOR 1,000 WAR DEAD
> 2. 07:22 MUBARAK URGES WEST TO CRACK DOWN ON FUNDAMENTALISM
> 3. 05:52 PRESS DIGEST - MOROCCO - JAN 19
> 4. 00:56 UAE SEES NOTHING NEW IN IRAN TALKS OFFER
>Transmission date: 96/01/18
> 5. 22:09 FORMER IRAN TOBACCO OFFICIAL IN CORRUPTION TRIAL
> 6. 17:43 IRAQ, IRAN SECRETLY BUYING ON NUCLEAR MARKET-BND
> 7. 17:15 TOP IRAN OFFICIALS BACK PRESIDENT FOR MARCH VOTE
>
>=START= XMT: 09:37 Fri Jan 19 EXP: 9 :00 Mon Jan 22
>
>
> Iran holds funeral for 1,000 war dead
> TEHRAN, Jan 19 (Reuter) - Iran held a mass funeral on Friday for 1,000
>soldiers killed in its 1980-1988 war with Iraq whose bodies were recently found
>in former war zones, the Iranian news agency IRNA said.
> Tens of thousands attended the funeral march after Friday prayers in Tehran
>streets under heavy snowfall, it added.
> The bodies of more than 20,000 Iranian soldiers missing in action have been
>found and identified since the end of the war in which an estimated one million
>Iranians and Iraqis were killed.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 07:22 Fri Jan 19 EXP: 7 :00 Mon Jan 22
>
>
> Mubarak urges West to crack down on fundamentalism
> PARIS, Jan 19 (Reuter) - Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak accused Sudan and
>Iran on Friday of giving refuge to Moslem extremists and urged western nations
>to crack down on militant guerrillas.
> In an interview with the French daily Le Figaro, Mubarak also hailed
>Palestinian elections on Saturday as a big step forward and predicted they
>would create a more relaxed atmosphere for peace talks in the Middle East.
> Asked which countries he believed gave support to Moslem militants, Mubarak
>said: ``Sudan apparently sees an interest in having fundamentalists on its
>territory.
> ``This is, however, not in the nature of the Sudanese people, which is very
>generous. The problem is that there are people in that country who help
>fundamentalists to earn money. For example, they sell them passports,'' he
>said.
> Asked whether all sanctions on Iran should be lifted, he said: ``When Iran
>stops supporting these terrorist groups, then we will be able to lift the
>embargo.''
> ``One day or another, countries who give shelter to terrorists will pay the
>price,'' he said. ``The west must take severe measures. We need great firmness
>with these people.''
> Sudan has rejected Egyptian charges that it provided training for members
>of militant Islamic groups. Egypt has accused Sudan of providing refuge for
>gunmen who carried out a failed assassination attempt on Mubarak in Ethiopia in
>June.
> The international guerrilla known as Carlos ``The Jackal'' was seized by
>French agents in Sudan in August, 1994, and was spirited to Paris. France at
>the time praised Sudan for cooperation over the arrest.
> Referring to the Palestinian elections, Mubarak said that ``this vote
>represents a big step forward.''
> ``I think that things will calm down,'' he said, saying the ``peace process
>should be able to continue in a much more relaxed atmosphere.'' In the longer
>term, he said he believed that Syria and Israel would also begin peace talks.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 05:52 Fri Jan 19 EXP: 5 :00 Mon Jan 22
>
>
> PRESS DIGEST - Morocco - Jan 19
> RABAT, Jan 19 (Reuter) - These are the leading stories in the Moroccan
>press on Friday. Reuters has not verified these stories and does not vouch for
>their accuracy.
> LE MATIN DU SAHARA
> - King Hassan meets IMF chief Michel Camdessus, Libyan and Tunisian envoys.
> - Iran supports U.N. peace plan in Western Sahara.
> - Minister of privatisation says equity-linked bond issue met target.
> L'OPINION
> - Israeli foreign minister to visit Morocco on Friday.
> - Tourism in southern city of Agadir faces serious crisis.
> - Moroccan newspapers banned in Tunisia.
> - Delegation of Moroccan businessmen to visit Bethlehem in February.
> AL-BAYANE
> - Tunisian and Libyan envoys meet King Hassan.
> - Poland and Morocco to boost economic cooperation.
> - Israeli foreign minister to visit Morocco.
> AL-MAGHRIB
> - Smuggling must end if Moroccan economy to be protected.
> - Branson's balloon to take off from Marrakesh.
> L'ECONOMISTE
> - Privatisation bonds oversubscribed. Demand at nearly two billion dirhams
>against 1.5 billion offered.
> - Interest rates to be freed: foreign exchange market starting May 1996.
> AL-ALAM
> - Libyan and Tunisian envoys meet King Hassan to activate Maghreb Arab
>Union of North African states.
> - Teachers to stage three-day strike next week.
> AL-ITTIHAD AL-ISHTIRAKI
> - Libyan and Tunisian envoys meet King Hassan, ask to build real Arab
>Maghreb Union of North African states.
> - Teachers to go on nationwide strike on February 1.
> - Israeli foreign minister to visit Morocco on Friday.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 00:56 Fri Jan 19 EXP: 0 :00 Mon Jan 22
>
>
> UAE sees nothing new in Iran talks offer
> DUBAI, Jan 18 (Reuter) - The United Arab Emirates (UAE) is willing to
>reopen talks with Iran to tackle a territorial dispute but rejects Tehran's
>latest offer to review the ``misunderstanding,'' an official source said.
> ``The Foreign Minister of the UAE has always been willing to review the
>issue (with his Iranian counterpart) if Iran calls for talks to at least
>discuss the 'conflict over the three islands' not the 'misunderstanding','' the
>source added.
> Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Velayati said on Tuesday Tehran would not use
>force to solve the dispute over the startegic islands, almost totally held by
>Iran. He called for fresh bilateral discussions to end the
>``misunderstanding.''
> Speaking during a visit to Kuwait, Velayati said he was ready to continue
>stalled talks held in November in Qatar. He called on UAE Foreign Minister
>Rashid Abdullah al-Nuaimi to visit Iran for this purpose.
> The UAE has said the Qatar talks were a failure.
> Arab allies, who often term Iran's presence on the islands as occupation,
>have backed a UAE call to refer the dispute to the International Court of
>Justice if the two sides fail to reach a peaceful agreement.
> Iran's ties with Arab states have been strained over their support for the
>UAE in the dispute over the islands of Abu Musa and Greater and Lesser Tumb
>close to Gulf's mouth.
> ``If we do not succeed in the first round of talks with the UAE we will go
>into a second stage of negotiations, and so on, a third and a fourth, until we
>reach a positive result,'' said Velayati, dismissing any prospect of a war with
>neighbours.
> The English-language UAE daily Gulf News, reflecting official thinking,
>said Iran's invitation offered nothing new that could move the stalled
>negotiations forward.
> ``If the negotiations on the islands are to resume, Tehran must stop acting
>provocatively and offer real proof that it is ready for unconditional talks,''
>it said in an editorial.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 22:09 Thu Jan 18 EXP: 2 :00 Sun Jan 21
>
>
> Former Iran tobacco official in corruption trial
> TEHRAN, Jan 18 (Reuter) - The former head of Iran's state tobacco company
>has admitted taking $6.3 million in commissions from foreign firms but denied
>using the money improperly, a newspaper said on Thursday.
> Ali Asghar Samet told an Islamic court he made another 6.4 billion rials
>($2.1 million) from selling free cigarettes supplied by the companies on the
>black market, but added that he used $4.5 million of the sums on building
>projects at the state tobacco company and on charities, the daily Jomhuri
>Eslami said.
> The daily Kayhan quoted Samet as saying he also gave $1 million and 22,000
>pounds sterling ($33,000) of the money to Iran's Intelligence (Internal
>Security) Ministry. He did not elaborate.
> ``I see it to be my duty to pay back the commissions,'' Samet told the
>court on Wednesday, Kayhan added.
> According to the court's head, Samet had earlier admitted depositing in his
>bank accounts $8.3 million and 9.3 million marks received as commissions, in
>addition to funds from the sale of the free cigarettes, Jomhuri Eslami
>reported.
> But Samet later retracted his previous statements, the newspaper quoted the
>judge as saying.
> Samet faces prison, possible flogging and fines if convicted of financial
>corruption, colluding with foreign and Iranian companies, abuse of power, and
>taking commissions.
> The case follows several trials for fraud and embezzlement at Iranian state
>agencies and banks in the past year which have featured prominently in the
>local media and sparked wide public outcry.
> In the biggest fraud case in Iran's history, an Iranian businessman was
>executed in November after a court found him guilty of ``sabotaging the
>country's economic system'' by defrauding state-run bank Saderat of $21.7
>million.
> It was the first case of capital punishment for economic crimes in Iran,
>after the scores of executions that immediately followed the 1979 Islamic
>revolution.
> ($-3,000 rials at the official exchange rate)
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 17:43 Thu Jan 18 EXP: 7 :00 Sun Jan 21
>
>
> Iraq, Iran secretly buying on nuclear market-BND
> BONN, Jan 18 (Reuter) - The head of Germany's BND intelligence service said
>on Thursday that Iran and Iraq have been acquiring nuclear materials using
>undercover buyers on the international black market.
> Konrad Porzner told a parliamentary committee investigating a plutonium
>smuggling affair that there was little doubt procurers for the two states were
>at large.
> He said that of 32 cases of interested buyers registered by German
>intelligence last year, 16 were made on behalf of states -- proportionally more
>than those detected in previous years.
> Buyers and sellers of nuclear components tended to pass contacts on rather
>than meet by chance. The Ukraine was the focus of the illegal international
>trade, where gangs of smugglers were operating with as many as 50 members.
> Nuclear components from former Soviet military installations were
>increasingly leaving the country illegally. but most of this material, he said,
>was not weapons-grade.
> Also on offer was enriched uranium from reactors of nuclear submarines,
>which could be used to build atomic bombs.
> He said the illegal nuclear trade also operated in Germany. The BND
>believed Berlin was a centre for such deals, but as yet had no proof.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 17:15 Thu Jan 18 EXP: 7 :00 Sun Jan 21
>
>
> Top Iran officials back president for March vote
> TEHRAN, Jan 18 (Reuter) - An group of senior Iranian officials has called
>on voters to back the policies of President Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani in
>parliamentary elections in March, a newspaper said on Thursday.
> ``Supporting Hashemi (Rafsanjani) means continuing the clear ideological
>line and the high goals of (Ayatollah Ruhollah) Khomeini's revolution,'' the
>group of 16 officials known to be close to the president said in a statement in
>Ettelaat daily.
> External pressures are not the main threat to the Iranian government,
>brought to power by the 1979 Islamic revolution, but rather internal economic
>woes, said the group which includes 10 ministers, four vice-presidents,
>Tehran's mayor and the governor of Iran's Central Bank.
> ``We should aim our...efficiency and expertise at the dangers that will
>appear under the guise of under-development and towards strengthening our
>economic policies and social structures,'' said the group, calling for wide
>participation in the vote.
> The statement was the first openly political call from the moderate camp in
>the run-up to the March 8 election, which has been dominated so far by
>conservatives who control the 270-seat parliament.
> Rafsanjani's economic liberalisation reforms have run into resistance in
>parliament which has reacted to public dissatisfaction in the wake of
>spiralling prices and a monetary crisis last year.
> No official electoral lists have been filed yet, but some parliament
>deputies have said they might form parties that would group moderates and
>independents not affiliated with the existing conservative and radical
>factions.
> The formation of a political party requires authorisation by officials who
>have approved a number of professional and religious associations in recent
>months but no political parties in the last 14 years.
> Rafsanjani on Wednesday called for free elections in which various
>tendencies could gain seats in parliament.
> ``We should not be concerned about the presence of different schools of
>thought in the Majlis (parliament)...Elections are a good test for groups with
>different ideas to realise what level of popular support they have,'' he was
>quoted by Iran's state-run television as saying.
>
>=END=
>
>
>
>
=END=
From: Rick Schaut
To: Talisman
Subject: RE: taxes and military spending
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 11:50:43 -0800
Dear Talizens,
From: Richard C. Logan[SMTP:nineteen@onramp.net]
>What disturbs me is what I perceive as modern capitalism
>asking every one to scurry like mackerels after a cigar butt dropped by
>the wealthy.
Galbraith refers to trickle-down Economics as, "the doctrine that
if sufficient oats are fed to the horse, a few grains will pass through
to the road for the sparrows."
It was even more amusing to see Pat Buchannon paraphrasing
this characterization in his op-ed piece on flat tax earlier this
week.
Rick
=END=
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 15:41:00 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: my dilemma
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear friends, yesterday I received a message from Stephen Friberg.
I thought he had posted it privately so I answered him privately at length.
Now I find out that he posted this message publicly. Well, I don't want you to
think I took his words lying down. Indeed, I was sitting very upright when I
wrote back to him. I have this wonderful reputation that has been thoroughly
developed by our beloved Burl and Derek to defend here and I know my
obligations. Of course, I toasted Steve, but I can't remember at all what I
said.
I do recall that he said something about me being locked into an American
perspective. This came as a surprise to me since I am so hopelessly out of
touch with American culture. Even Juan has nagged me to watch American T.V.
sometimes so that I know what is going on and so that I don't go into culture
shock
after five minutes of a Fox sitcom.
As for his comments about Talisman being a healthy sign of development in the
community - I certainly agree that Talisman is a terrific forum for developing
ideas and building consensus, but, alas, it is very limited and seems to be
unique in the Baha'i world. Of course, I am not sure of this, but that is my
perception. If Talisman became a model for other such forums, I would be
delighted. I do sense that there are many Baha'is who are desparate for a
space for open discussion of ideas and where platitudes are not allowed. Well,
perhaps there is not rule against them, but anyone who dares to post them get
shot down pretty quickly.
Well, Steve, you might refresh my memory. What else are we arguing about? Do
you recall?
I want to assure everyone who is planning on going to the Mysticism Conference
that I pay no attention whatsoever to Burl's comments. Nothing he can say
would prevent me from bringing my Montavani recordings with me. Rest assured
that I will bring my entire collection so that we can listen the entire weekend
without ever having to hear the same piece twice. Of course, only those
of us with specially trained ears can detect the differences among the pieces
but I
am sure there will be several such individuals there who will have the
necessarily training to delight in an entire Montavani weekend. (Oh, Burl,
stop pouting. You went to the last conference!) Love, Linda
=END=
Date: 19 Jan 96 14:56:32 EST
From: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
To:
Subject: Demilitarization
Dear Talismanians,
First, thanks to everyone on this wonderful list for your remarkable
contributions of late. More and more, it feels like my Baha'i community
lives here.
I wanted to respond this morning to the discussion of limiting military
spending and the difficulties encountered in converting from a war
economy to a peaceful one.
First, I would remind us all of the importance of the Guardian's oft-
repeated one-sentence descriptor of the Baha'i Faith's mission: "It
calls for nothing less," he was fond of saying and writing, "than the
unification and the demilitarization of the entire world."
Demilitarization (and its salutary impact on burdensome taxation) also
formed the core social message of Baha'u'llah's Tablets to the Kings and
Rulers, so I think we might conclude that military downsizing and eventual
elimination constitute key Baha'i principles. Except for a world police
force and the internal forces needed by each country, we certainly
envision a world free from the terrible scourge of armed men and those
who lead them.
As one who served in the US military while a Baha'i, my own experiences
there lead me to believe that the levels of waste, destruction and
moral depravity I witnessed came directly from the spiritual vacuum
created when a massive machine for killing goes on unchecked.
But, as Bev correctly notes, human beings serve as soldiers, and they must
have some future before demilitarization can work, especially in heavily
armed societies. I wanted to say, on this issue, that many conversion
plans have been designed for expressly this purpose.
In Southern California, for instance, many economists have noted that our
long recession was directly caused by the downsizing in defense contracts
in the post-Reagan years. In two separate elections during that period --
1986 and 1990 -- a close friend of mine ran a ballot initiative campaign
in Los Angeles county designed to speed military conversion to peacetime
industry called Jobs with Peace. My friend, long a union and community
organizer for Cesar Chavez's Farmworkers Union, fought hard for these
two ballot initiatives by doing an incredible job of grass-roots citizen
contact and precinct-by-precinct organizing work. His campaign, non-
partisan and completely supportable by Baha'is, lost in both years by
slim single-point margins because of last-minute media spending in huge
amounts from the defense industry itself, afraid that a successful model
of conversion might further reduce their funding.
If we expect the lesser peace to occur soon, perhaps the best thing the
Baha'i communities in close proximity to military bases can do to promote
peace would involve preparing and proclaiming efficient and reasonable
conversion plans.
Love,
David
=END=
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 15:29:15 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: the term "non-Baha'i"
Dear David and All,
I too don't like the term "non-Baha'i" - the term used in
Persian "qa'rih" [that's probably not the right transliteration]
(I think it literally means "other") is not one of my favorites either.
Believe or not, I don't have any suggestions regarding this!
regards,
sAmAn
=END=
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 14:51:58 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Juan R Cole
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Standards
On Wed, 17 Jan 1996, Juan R Cole wrote:
> Properly married
> persons are not bringing disgrace to the Faith, nor are they engaged in
> blatant immorality by community standards.
The House makes the point in the course of that letter that the "disgrace"
can be as viewed by the Baha'i community and not only a disgrace in the
eyes of the community at large. If we used the shifting sands of what
passes in society at large for immorality today, and morality tomorrow, we
would have no standards of conduct. It's no shame or disgrace in Italy to
have dinner wine; but that does not affect the application of one standard
of conduct throughout the Baha'i world, regardless of whether or not it
raises the eyebrows of the non-Baha'i neighbors.
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 17:14:06 EST
Subject: oceanography researcher
Dear folks,
Sorry for taking bandwith with this. My youngest sister who worked at
the International Atomic Energy Agency in Monaco for a year as an
assistant researcher is looking for PhD. programs here in U.S.
Her experience and interest is in lab experiments on the partitioning
of 210 Po and 210 Pb between sea water and sediment etc.
Don't ask me what this is except that it has something to do with
radioactive stuff in the oceans. She used alpha-spectrometry in
procedures and radiochemical techniques. She is the one who uses the
other side of the brain in the family.
If anyone from talisman knows of a program in their respective
university which deals with this stuff, could you send me a note and
the people who are involved? It would be greatly appreciated.
Also, please pray for my step-dad who had a heart attack on Wednesday.
He is one of the nicest man in the world. I love him dearly.
lovingly,
quanta
p.s. just got off the phone talking to family and found this sad news
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 15:18:34 PST
Subject: RE: Your dissertation?
To: belove@sover.net, Marie-Louise Lundberg ,
talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Zaid,
The name sounds hebraic. Is it? Where are you in the world? What program
are you in that supports such an interesting dissertation. How many Bahai's
on your committee?
Do you have a basic thesis? Can you state it in 50 words or less?
Thanks for asking. My dissertation is a great piece of obscurity. It is
about the relationship between Alfred Adler's theories about family therapy
and General System's theory. I started with Gregory Bateson's theories and
extended them using Maturana and Varela's theories about self-organzing
systems and, combinging this with Adler's work, created a model for family
interaction.
Pretty obscure stuff, but very satisfying for me and as a theoretical model,
I thought it was a beaut.
I think it has some moments of great clarity.
At the personal level, it was an attempt on my part to salvage the
psychological theories of Alfred Adler from obscurity. It really didn't
work. But the system's theory part still stands me in good stead and ,at
one point in my work, I achieve a vision of the unity of God and Science and
was in a mystical state for a week or so, so that was fun.
On Fri, 19 Jan 1996 12:18:36 +0100 Marie-Louise Lundberg wrote:
>Dear Philip,
>
>I saw your posting on Talisman Re: Ken Wilber (whose books I admire and
whom
>never seem to stop impress me), and I became curious on what you wrote your
>dissertation? I am myself trying to write my Master's Thesis on "Baha'i
>Apocalypticism: The Concept of Progressive Revelation". I have at the
moment
>unsubscribed from Talisman, since I am getting an email-account of my own
(I
>am using my wife's at the moment).
>
>BA-HAIFA-ITH
>
>Zaid Lundberg
>
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/19/96
Time: 15:18:34
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A. Einstein
=END=
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 15:36:47 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Talisman
Subject: Sarajevo Books (fwd)
---------- Forwarded message ---------- If anybody has books published
since 1990 on comparative law, international law, or human rights law let
me know and I'll help forward them
Brent
Forwarded message:
----------
'Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 11:58:37 -0600
From: Kate Greene
To: Multiple recipients of list
Subject: New email address & Sarajevo Books
Hello All!
First off: please note that my email address is changed! The new
address is:
kg6738a@auvm.american.edu
Secondly: A couple of hours ago I met a delegation from the
University of Sarajevo Law School. If you will recall, the current
CEELI Book Donation Project is for their benefit. The Dean and the
Professors I spoke with are extremely grateful for the work being
done on their behalf. Apparently they have received *no* books since the
outbreak of the war!
Hence, I am asking any and all ILSA chapters and Friends to please help us to
find as many books as possible for
the Sarajevo Law School library that have been published since 1990.
In particular, they asked for periodicals such as the Human Rights
Quarterly and others that focus on comparative law.
Also, please note that this project is not limited to donations from
the U.S.! Bosnia-Hercegovina is going to need the best resources it
can get from around the world. Donations from anyone, anywhere are needed!
=END=
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 15:51:23 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Talisman
Subject: Islamic Sacred Writings (fwd)
FYI
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 04:23:25 GMT
From: SHARRITA@aol.com
To: bahai-faith@bcca.org
Newgroups: soc.religion.bahai
Subject: Islamic Sacred Writings
Hello Friends!
I thought maybe I could get some answers from you all concerning Islamic
Writings other than the Quran. My husband is Muslim and I am Baha'i. As far
as I am aware, the only Muslim Text which is considered "from God" by the
Baha'is or Baha'u'llah is the Quran. However, my husband tells me there are
other writings that came from God through Muhammad in "conversation" to
explain some of the stories in the Quran for situations in life which
Muhammad did not know how to deal with. My understanding is that there are
many personal translations in books and in footnotes in the Quran which are
from either the authors themselves or from some of the Islamic Clergy.
Therefore it would not be considered Islamic Revelation, rather it would
simply be opinions by people. If anyone can give me some information or
references on this subject it would be greatly appreciated by both my husband
and myself so that we could reach a better understanding of what he and I
feel are actually words from Muhammad and what are more cultural traditions
reached throughout the years. (For example, the practice of shaving baby's
head when they are born, or the case of women wearing chidors(sp?))
Thank you very much!
Sharrita
P.S. As some of the discussion may get off the subject of the Baha'i Faith,
feel free to e-mail me at: Sharrita@aol.com if it seems more appropriate.
Thank you.
=END=
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 14:27:42 -0800
From: derekmc@IX.NETCOM.COM (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: my dilemma
To: talisman@indiana.edu
---- Begin Forwarded Message
Return-Path:
To: Richard Vernon Hollinger
Cc: Doug Myers , talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: American News Coverage
Well, I'm "De-Lurking" here for just a moment. I guess I couldn't
contain myself on this one.
To suggest that Public Broadcasting has a "liberal" bent is to me very
obsurd. If anything, it is very very conservative in style and substance.
Catering to a (and excuse me for saying this) White upper Middle class
elitist mindset. Compare NPR with the Pacifica Report (an apropos example
of very leftist radio reporting) to see what is liberal and what is not.
If anything NPR and the TV News Hour are rather main stream middle of the
road (without much of interest to minorities). In fact the whole format
of the News Hour is not to inject it's own opinions (unless clearly labled
as commentary) but to be a forum for newsmakers and journalists of both
stripes.
If you were to even count the hours of news programming on PBS that has a
"self identified" conservative bent (i.e. firing line, McGlaughlin Group
etc.), it would be obvious that the news programming on PBS is hardly
liberal. The News Hour as part of its "even handed approach" has as
regular panelists such personalities as David Gergen (self identified
Republican), Paul Gigot - Wall Street Journal Columnist (and flamming!
conservative - although in the News Hour appears as mild mannered
thoughtful person), just to name a few.
This assertion about the political proclivities of PBS is just another
tired charge of those who would use such dis-information tactics to
create an atmosphere of distrust, and fear in America.
Now as for commercial TV news coverage in the US. It is plain awful. I
count myself lucky that I have access to Canadian news (although the local
cable companies are trying to cut that off) and listen to BBC world
service when ever possible.
Interesting trend to take note of, a significant number of people are now
spending more time getting news info and entertainment from the Internet
than from TV. HMmmmmmmmmm...........
As a Baha'i, I guess all this talk about what is liberal and conservative
shouldn't make a difference. I guess what struck a cord in me is that in
all of the news dissemenation available on TV in the US, PBS and NPR comes
closest to (to me at least) presenting information that is the least
slanted, and displays an earnest search for truth. If that means that the
effects of legislation is examined in the news and that effect casts an
unfavorable light on the motives of those sponsoring the legislation that
is not a liberal thing or a conservative thing. There are examples of
news reporting that exposes the truth about things that have not been
favorable to either liberals or conservatives.
=END=
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 20:14:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand
To: Saman Ahmadi
Cc: talisman
Subject: Re: the term "non-Baha'i"
I could not agree with you more. As a student of peace and conflict
studies, i am very aware of the dangers of creating in group / out group
attitudes which merely serve to create an exclusivist attitude within and
may dangerously lead to us vs. them attitudes.
In conversation, i never use the term non-Baha'i. i prefer to use either
"friend of the faith" or the longer term "someone who is not a Baha'i".
Though i think i prefer the former as it makes the person also feel that
they are considered a friend of the faith and that the relationship is
much appreciated.
Regards,
Cheshmak
=END=
From: NETProfs@aol.com
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 19:03:44 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Fwd: Baha'i online
Dear Talismanians:
I just got this request from a friend of mine who now works for American
Online and is asking for Baha'i participation. And since I don't have a clue
about what I should tell her--I am trusting some of you cyber-Baha'is to get
in touch with her directly and connect her to the Baha'i stuff that is out
there. Wherever it is. Mark? Eric?
Anyway, America Online has some three million members. So, I would call
this a teaching opportunity. :-)
Tony
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: wendym@gnn.com (Wendy Marx)
To: netprofs@aol.com
Date: 96-01-19 15:54:14 EST
Tony,
I don't know if you are aware of the fact that I now work at GNN, America
Online's Internet brand. I am on the Community Team here and we are very
interested in multiculturalism and inviting all groups to feel comfortable
in our space.
I am working on a specific area to house some special interest communities,
including religious groups. Do you know of any great B'hai
communities/sites on the Web? I'd be very interested in linking to them.
Let me know.
Peace,
wendy
Wendy Marx
Community Builder
GNN
2855 Telegraph Avenue
Berkeley, CA 94705
Check out GNN: http://gnn.com
=END=
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 20:20:28 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand
To: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Demilitarization
A few weeks ago i was at a Christmas party and one of the guests used to
work in the military here in the US. He made a comment which particularly
perturbed me. As you all probably know i am studying peace and conflict
studies so i was interested in hearing this gentleman's views on certain
issues. At one point in our conversation, he very casually said "What we
need in this country just about now is a good war. That would set our
economy right again!!" I was shocked to say the least and now that you
mentioned war economies, it might be interesting to note that some
economists (such as from the Coventry Business School) are very
comfortable these days in arguing that international economic cooperation
and interdependence is more economically beneficial to all those involved
than war economies. They feel confident in saying this i think because it
this age of the global village we are witness to such unions and its
fruits.
Regards,
Cheshmak
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 17:58:55 PST8PDT
Subject: Re: Fwd: Baha'i online
Hi,
I'll contact her about the possibility of an internet accessible
(WWW?) talisman archive. Maybe the talisman/Interact "e-zine"
could reside there too. Any thoughts about privacy problems?
I'll also send her the latest Usenet s.r.b. documents about Baha'i
WWW sites.
EP
(PierceED@csus.edu)
> From: NETProfs@aol.com
> Date sent: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 19:03:44 -0500
> To: Talisman@indiana.edu
> Subject: Fwd: Baha'i online
> Dear Talismanians:
> I just got this request from a friend of mine who now works for American
> Online and is asking for Baha'i participation. And since I don't have a clue
> about what I should tell her--I am trusting some of you cyber-Baha'is to get
> in touch with her directly and connect her to the Baha'i stuff that is out
> there. Wherever it is. Mark? Eric?
> Anyway, America Online has some three million members. So, I would call
> this a teaching opportunity. :-)
>
> Tony
> ---------------------
> Forwarded message:
> From: wendym@gnn.com (Wendy Marx)
> To: netprofs@aol.com
> Date: 96-01-19 15:54:14 EST
>
> Tony,
>
> I don't know if you are aware of the fact that I now work at GNN, America
> Online's Internet brand. I am on the Community Team here and we are very
> interested in multiculturalism and inviting all groups to feel comfortable
> in our space.
>
> I am working on a specific area to house some special interest communities,
> including religious groups. Do you know of any great B'hai
> communities/sites on the Web? I'd be very interested in linking to them.
>
> Let me know.
>
> Peace,
> wendy
>
> Wendy Marx
> Community Builder
> GNN
> 2855 Telegraph Avenue
> Berkeley, CA 94705
> Check out GNN: http://gnn.com
>
=END=
From: Rick Schaut
To: "Talisman@indiana.edu"
Subject: RE: Demilitarization
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 18:27:55 -0800
Dear Talizens,
>From a purely Economic point of view, demilitarization
is a no-brainer. In a debate during the 1994 election
campaign, Jesse Jackson responded to a question on
this issue by turning to the audience and asking them
how many owned VCR's (to which almost every hand
shot up). He then asked how many owned an MX
missile.
Not one VCR made owned in the United States is
actually made in the United States. You can take
the money you're using to build up an overly-well
armed army and use it to subsidize various industries
(at least temporarily). The net effect on the Economy
is a positive because the product that's bought (albeit
indirectly in the case of the subsidy) using these tax
dollars itself has a useful Economic purpose (as opposed
to said MX missile which one puts on a shelf and prays
that one never needs to use).
The issue does get more complex when one factors
in human considerations. To that end, I see no problem
with reducing arms production, cutting back on army
recruitment and letting attrition take care of the rest.
Rick
=END=
[end of 1/19/96 session]
Talisman emails received 1/20/96
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 96 16:55 GMT+1300
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Alison & Steve Marshall
Subject: about homosexuality
I've just been reading through the postings and making links between ideas.
This is an issue relating to the logic of various positions. I have no
background in studying these areas of knowledge.
It struck me to ask: Is homosexuality in the "hardware" or "software" (to
use Juan's terminology)? Perhaps this is a category error... Juan says we
have few instincts, but many drives such as the one to procreate, or the
sexual drive. Juan has argued that these drives are culturally determined.
This would put homosexuality in the software department. That would
contradict some findings in science that homosexuality is something you are
born with (as I am lead to believe from what I read on Talisman). Or can you
be born with software? I would have thought not if software is the
characterstics that are culturally determined.
It gets tricky... is it really in the interests of gay people to argue that
homosexuality is natural/innate? This would open them up to the arguments
that Juan fears could be made using sociobiology; for example, that women
are genetically inferior, as are blacks and so on. People could argue that
homosexuals are born naturally inferior. As Juan points put, this is a good
reason for not putting our drives into the hardware department, and I agree
with him that much of us is software.
So it seems that for gay people there are is a minus either way, be it
software or hardware. If it's software, then its culturally determined and
therefore able to be changed.
Just a note about Baha'i law - stating the obvious I guess. I understand
that there is a leap in idea from boys to same-sex consenting adults.
However, as I understand it, the House's sphere of infallibility is
legislation and therefore it can legitimately make that leap, and, if it
chooses to, make homosexuality between consenting males or females against
Baha'i law. Has it actually done this? It strikes me that this issue is a
perfect example of one that has not been covered in the Book.
Whatever the House legislates, though, I think there is no excuse for
prejudice, or making it impossible for people to have their place in the
community. I think if you make it impossible for someone to have a place in
the Baha'i community, you are telling them that the One who loves them more
than anyone, has no place for them. That's a contradiction that's sure to
play havoc with your mind.
Alison
--------------------------------------------------------------
Alison and Steve Marshall
Email: forumbahai@es.co.nz
90 Blacks Road, Opoho, Dunedin/Otepoti, Aotearoa/New Zealand
--------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 18:10:25 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Islamic Sacred Writings reference too,
To: Sharrita@aol.com
To: talisman@indiana.edu
My dear Sharrita
Brent Poirier forwarded your message regarding Islam and the
Holy Writings .
Your husband is entitled to view whatever he regards as
authentic and from the Prophet , 'Upon Him be Blessings and
Peace' , it also depends which branch of Islam he belongs .
The sayings he refers to are the hadiths these are recorded
sayings or explanations of Muhammad and cover just about
every aspect of life . To be authentic of the highest level there
should be three confirming separate sources . There are in
Sunni Islam 6 collections of hadiths , the two greatest being
al-Bukhari and Muslim . They are written in Arabic and have
been translated into English . Although a Shi'ite may accept
certain of the hadiths , they have their own collection which in
the main come from the Imams .If your husband is Iranian he
is no doubt he is Shi'i . The branch of Islam dominant there
are the followers of the 12 Imams . The Imams were direct
descendants of the Prophet through his daughter Fatimeh and
his cousin and son-in law Ali . In one of the great Sunni
hadiths of Ibn Hanbal it is reported the Prophet said :' I have
left among you two weighty matters which if you cling to
them you shall not be led into error after me . One of them is
greater than the other : The Book of God which is a rope
stretched from Heaven to Earth and my progeny , the people
of my house . These two shall not be parted until they return
to the pool of Paradise' . This is one of the main augments for
the station of the Imams and Shi'i Islam . In the case of
Sunni Islam they followed the Caliphs . The first four are
normally given the respect of 'Rashidun' or 'Rightly Guided'.
Because Islam did not have a doctrinal system that can be
applied to run a society . They had to develop such a system
,this is what is known as : The Sharia . In order to further
this study and development there came into being the 4
schools of Islamic thought and law , the Hanafis , Malikis ,
the Shaf'is and the Hanabilis . From this schools came and
still does the application of Islam on everyday life . In the case
of the Shiites one school did start but folded . It is from the
study of the Quran , the life of the Prophet and attributed
sayings that the form and nature of Islamic society has
developed . The precise questions you asked regarding the
chador that is a later development , as is the type of veiling
you now see in Saudi-Arabia .
Baha'u'llah and the Bab both refereed to Hadiths in Their
Writings . However from a strict Islamic point of view the
Quran is the uncreated Word of God . The Prophet , was the
Messenger of God and therefore his words can not be the
same as the Quran . Indeed it would be heretical for a Muslim
to even think that Muhammad was God or his own words are
of the same level as the Quran . Many of the items that are
cultural in Islamic Society are justified by refering back to the
Quran but actually have no place in the original Religion .
I hope this has been of use to you . Please feel free to contact
me .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
Date: 19 Jan 96 20:16:45 U
From: "Dan Orey"
Subject: legitimacy smitamacy
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: SBirkland@aol.com, Kkonline@aol.com
Subject: Time: 8:01 PM
OFFICE MEMO legitimacy smitamacy Date: 1/19/96
Dear Friends,
I have been gone for a few days and have returned as most dedicated
talispersons do, to find my computer full of at least four hundred messages. I
have read with some interest the passages by a few folks who are sharing their
thoughts with us about those with a homosexual orientation. I am still amazed
that anyone who is heterosexual would find my gay and lesbian brothers and
sisters something of alarm, indeed of harm to the Faith. It still remains
unclear to me as to what exactly we have, or are, that makes folks so
uncomfortable ...
Many authors of the recent posts on this subject seem to feel a need to make
what few gays and lesbians still remain in the Faith as unwelcome as possible
by either holding up an impossible standard for us to live by, and then
suggesting that we will be punished if we do not abide by it, or by offering a
continued stream of platitudes that most of us find insulting, if not
condescending in the extreme. This does nothing other than give the outer world
the impression that once again, the Baha'is are self righteous bigots who,
though morally "straight" in the demeanor have hearts of pure lead.
In the light of Continental Counselor Stephen Birkland's advice to us I wish to
offer another solution for our consideration, one that I think is quite viable.
I humbly submit this to Talisman in hopes that it may generate some thoughts.
It is modeled after any number of the more moderate Christian church's in my
area (and one in Dallas, Texas... 2nd Baptist Church). It goes like this,
To our loving gay and Lesbian friends, seekers, and believers, and their
families,
As followers of a spiritual path that works for justice, for love and for
tolerance, and for the eradication of all forms of prejudice, we can only hope
to understand the dilemma that you must face. We understand how the pain and
trouble that you experience by the homophobia in society and by that of our own
spiritual brothers and sisters is a true test for you. Despite all of our human
frailties, we want to make you feel loved and welcomed by us. We understand
that there exists a large discrepancy between sexual orientation and what you
find in the Baha'i sacred writings. That is something for you, and you only, to
deal with. You have a great gift from God, and any number of qualities that we
cherish, and indeed this religious community could use. So, please enter, and
join us in building a loving, tolerant community for all people!
Just some thoughts, from someone who is hanging on by his fingernails, and
feeling that there is someone stomping on them from above. Someday I hope that
folks will understand how very sad this is for the few of us who remain in the
Faith that we love so very much. - Daniel
=END=
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 00:30:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Timothy A. Nolan"
To: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: some thoughts
Dear Linda, you wrote:
lw> Since we share with the Catholic Church the unusual
lw> circumstance of having a central "infallible" institution,
The Baha'i Faith shares some principles with the Catholic Church (e.g.
the ideal of chastity, belief in the virgin birth of Jesus). But we do not
share with Catholics the reality of having an infallible institution.
The Catholic Church does not in fact have any infallible institution.
As you well know, the Baha'i Faith does have clear statements
in its sacred texts about the infallible institutions.
Having been brought up as a believing Catholic, I am well
aware that the Catholic Church teaches that it is centered on an
infallible institution; this belief is simply mistaken.
lw>alas, instead of a universalistic and inclusive approach I see one
lw>that has become so narrow and rigid.
This attitude may exist in certain parts of the Baha'i community
but I hardly think this is true of the Universal House of Justice.
If the prevailing feeling in certain Baha'i communities is narrowness
and rigidity, this may indicate the need for more maturity. The same
is true of individual Baha'is. I agree that narrowness and rigidity
are undesireable, but, at the opposite extreme, an attitude of
"anything goes", or "if it feels good, do it", is also harmful.
lw> Nothing can change. Everything has to stay exactly the way
lw> it was when Shoghi Effendi was alive.
Whom do you think holds this belief? I think you are not attributing
this attitude to the House of Justice, so I suppose you feel this
position describes certain communities or individuals. Once again,
we all need more maturity and depth of understanding. If we do not
make this particular mistake, then we make another kind.
Tim Nolan
=END=
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 20:50:01 -0800
To: NETProfs@aol.com, Talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re: Fwd: Baha'i online
Hello all, as a former member of America On Line, I had my account for a
year, that America On Line has a very active Bahai Membership. On Monday
Nights 9:00PM eastern time, (???) there is a Bahai Fireside--live chat
about the Faith. Instructions: Click on Personal Relations, and once in
the Lobbies, click on Public Rooms, Click on Members Room, Create Room
Bahai Fireside(s) and you are there.
Later on in the evening in a different part of AOL.. Keyword --Religion,
shoots you to the Front Porch arena where you could get 100 or more "screen
names" in attendance. And again, teaching the Faith... I know our Mark
Foster has participated in this and he has fast fingers to type out the
answers to the questions that are raised. Also on Thursday Nights there is
a Fireside in the Members Room Name: Bahai Fireside Also there is a
man on AOL who takes care of the Bahai's on AOL with a weekly update and
schedule of events on AOL Write to him at Edmund5169 (When you open
up the AOL email, it defaults to AOL.) And he will fill you in on a lot of
details I left out.
And I have met many a Bahai on line in other rooms, too on AOL. It was a
blast to have.
Warmly, Margreet
At 07:03 PM 1/19/96 -0500, NETProfs@aol.com wrote:
>Dear Talismanians:
> I just got this request from a friend of mine who now works for American
>Online and is asking for Baha'i participation. And since I don't have a clue
>about what I should tell her--I am trusting some of you cyber-Baha'is to get
>in touch with her directly and connect her to the Baha'i stuff that is out
>there. Wherever it is. Mark? Eric?
> Anyway, America Online has some three million members. So, I would call
>this a teaching opportunity. :-)
>
>Tony
>---------------------
>Forwarded message:
>From: wendym@gnn.com (Wendy Marx)
>To: netprofs@aol.com
>Date: 96-01-19 15:54:14 EST
>
>Tony,
>
>I don't know if you are aware of the fact that I now work at GNN, America
>Online's Internet brand. I am on the Community Team here and we are very
>interested in multiculturalism and inviting all groups to feel comfortable
>in our space.
>
>I am working on a specific area to house some special interest communities,
>including religious groups. Do you know of any great B'hai
>communities/sites on the Web? I'd be very interested in linking to them.
>
>Let me know.
>
>Peace,
>wendy
>
>Wendy Marx
>Community Builder
>GNN
>2855 Telegraph Avenue
>Berkeley, CA 94705
>Check out GNN: http://gnn.com
>
>
>
=END=
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 21:54 PST
To: "Dan Orey"
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: legitimacy smitamacy
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
we want to make you feel loved and welcomed by us. We understand
>that there exists a large discrepancy between sexual orientation and what you
>find in the Baha'i sacred writings. That is something for you, and you only, to
>deal with. You have a great gift from God, and any number of qualities that we
>cherish, and indeed this religious community could use. So, please enter, and
>join us in building a loving, tolerant community for all people!
YAY! Makes perfect sense to me!
Burl
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 00:53:16 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Standards
Brent:
I am the first to agree with you that the principles of the Baha'i Faith
must be accorded precedence over transitory and culture-bound societal
trends).
However, since you are a lawyer I am sure you know better than I do that
things are never so simple as that. How do we separate out essential
principle from some historically conditioned, culture-bound and ad hoc
pronouncements that exist in our Writings? How do we balance principles
such as a commitment to end prejudice toward any class of human beings
with other Baha'i practices and laws? At what point does adherence to
the letter of the law actually betray the spirit of the law? When do
non-Baha'i community standards have an impact on the implementation of
Baha'i law? (You seem to say "never," but this is demonstrably untrue if
only you will think about it). Baha'u'llah says that men are free to do
as they please with regard to the cut of their hair and beards, but not
to make themselves laughingstocks. What would make you a laughingstock
is culturally and temporally sensitive, so that non-Baha'i community
standards are here built in to a commandment of Baha'u'llah.
`Abdu'l-Baha when he wanted to advise women to be modest in their
appearance sometimes spoke of them dressing modestly; but that would have
meant wearing a veil in the Iran of the time, whereas in contemporary
Santa Monica it would mean wearing a one-piece bathing suit rather than a
tiny bikini. (Some Baha'is are against women--but not men--wearing
bathing suits at all, but such a stance would rather discriminate against
women's sports . . .)
Moreover, the Holy Figures come out of a tradition of law where things
are not black and white. Deeds can be commanded, approved, neutral,
disliked, and forbidden. You are rewarded for doing as commanded, and
punished if you don't do it. If you do what is approved, you are
rewarded--however, you are not punished if you don't do it, since it
isn't strictly enjoined as a law. Likewise, if you do what is forbidden,
you are punished, but if you do what is disliked you are not actively
punished, though you do not receive the reward of avoiding that category
of deeds.
The question I was earlier implicitly raising is whether contemporary
forms of homosociality are *necessarily* hara:m/forbidden, such that a
sanction must be applied against them; or whether they might under
certain circumstances be merely makru:h/disliked (such as smoking). In
making decisions about what acts bring on administrative sanctions in the
Baha'i Faith, it seems quite obvious that Shoghi Effendi made the degree
of scandal the act provoked among non-Baha'is one criterion.
In Holland, no illegality or scandal attaches to same-sex marriage; there
is not strong evidence in the Baha'i Writings for seeing same-sex
marriage as hara:m/forbidden rather than makru:h/disliked (more especially
in the case of two adults who are legally married to one another as opposed
to the employment of catamites); Baha'u'llah prescribes no punishment for
same-sex unions. It is therefore my own personal view that an LSA in
Holland especially (but also elsewhere)
would be justified in leaving alone Baha'i gays who were not being
promiscuous or adulterous or bringing scandal on the community. In fact,
I think a close reading of the House's letter would demonstrate that this
latter position is not so far from what they are saying.
The Chicago sex survey, one of the more careful yet done, found that
about 2% of Americans are actively gay. This is much less than the
frequently cited figure of 10%, but it strikes me as plausible,
especially since it excludes same-sex intimacy from over a decade ago.
That figure would give about 5 million Americans, and 120 million persons
worlwide. I don't think we wish to see so many persons discriminated
against (they are beaten up, fired, denied housing, denied health
benefits that would accrue to them if they were heterosexual spouses,
made to feel guilty for feelings that often begin even while they are
children, and frequently are driven to suicide). Even Disney has decided
to be fair to them . . . :-)
cheers Juan Cole, History, Univ. of Michigan
On Fri, 19 Jan 1996, [G. Brent Poirier] wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Jan 1996, Juan R Cole wrote:
>
> > Properly married
> > persons are not bringing disgrace to the Faith, nor are they engaged in
> > blatant immorality by community standards.
>
> The House makes the point in the course of that letter that the "disgrace"
> can be as viewed by the Baha'i community and not only a disgrace in the
> eyes of the community at large. If we used the shifting sands of what
> passes in society at large for immorality today, and morality tomorrow, we
> would have no standards of conduct. It's no shame or disgrace in Italy to
> have dinner wine; but that does not affect the application of one standard
> of conduct throughout the Baha'i world, regardless of whether or not it
> raises the eyebrows of the non-Baha'i neighbors.
>
>
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 08:08:55 PST
Subject: Re: RE: Fat lady.
To: SFotos@eworld.com, talisman@indiana.edu,
"Marguerite K. Gipson"
On Thu, 18 Jan 1996 20:21:21 -0800 Marguerite K. Gipson wrote:
>Yah, I heard that one too but we are making jokes about fat
women.... The
>famous opera singer in a Viking Costume was a large woman. And
then this
>happened to me years ago, where some little boy in the elevator...
I happen
>to get on, and he says to his mother, Is she going to sing to us
Mom???
>His mom was a twig of a person, one good wind storm and she'd blow
away and
>I could tell so was he going to be too.. Can I help my heritage for
large
>bones and body building on top of that??? I still laugh.... but we
have to
>stop the sterotypes. It does hurt!
>
>Margreet
>Bench Pres
120 lbs.
>
That is a hell of a funny story!
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/19/96
Time: 08:08:55
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 96 15:03:11 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg"
To: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: my dilemma
Dear Linda:
This, according to my mailer, is going both to you and Talisman,
so you will be reading it twice!! Sorry!
Rather than repeating my somewhat critical challenges, let me
try to clearly state my underlying motives for making those challenges.
I hope to be back on line next Tuesday to reply, but there is
a dire illness in the family, so I go to Osaka until then. However,
I will get all the messages.
My belief is quite simple, really: intellectuals (or whatever you
want to call them) have very much to offer. However, as all this
bemoaning shows, they, generally speaking, have yet to figure out
what it is, and/or how to present it so that is viewed as being of
importance.
Rather, intellectuals (and their numerous imitators -- like me) have
usually managed to give an image of overweening self-esteem
while insisting on the importance of such things as "Self-gobulin in
the mystical praxis of pre-neoplatonic Harranian aspects of al-Razi's
thought". Much more worse is their tendency to talk all the time
while not listening to what anybody else is saying, not to mention
their susceptibility to current intellectual fads and fashions.
Are these valid criticisms, or just the way we are viewed? Perhaps
both. But, clearly, we should take stock of the situation and
the way we are viewed, take things into our on hands, and start
to make some constructive contributions. At the same time, we
must be willing, even eager, to learn about how others perceive
us.
I see several exciting developments. One is, of course, Talisman
itself, which is of great importance, I believe, as an example
of a clear, bright forum for sharing and developing ideas and
information. Let us try to maintain its beauty! And second, I
see the emergence of a much more realistic and positive assessment
of the role of the intellectual in the Baha'i community by Scholl,
Cole, Culhane, and the others participating in that dialogue.
The intellectual can offer specialized knowledge in certain areas,
and can have greater familiarity with certain aspects of the world
around us, and this knowledge should be taken advantage of and used.
At the same time, the intellectual, like a plumber, is just one
element of the community and commands no special privileges.
These positive trends must be balanced by an awareness of the
critical way that intellectuals in the Faith are viewed, and
steps must be taken that demonstrate in a practical way what
they have to offer. At the same time, the negative practices
of the intellectuals, namely the appearance that they engage
in institutional backbiting and their often-seeming apparent
seduction by the "dark side" of our culture (you don't like
my Star Wars analogy? Horrors!!).
I happen to think that Talisman is a very positive fruit of
our efforts. However, it may not be for everybody, as not
everybody has a tolerance for such openness and diversity
of expression.
Got to go . . .
Please say prayers for my father-in-law.
Yours,
Stephen Friberg
=END=
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 23:55:14 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: Baha'is and Friends - (This was great!)
David wrote -
non-Baha'i (how I hate that term -- suggestion: Talisman contest for a
replacement, enter now!)
(Bawho's - Baha'inots - Sansbah's) - How about just Baha'is and Friends!
We just came home from a delightful gathering of Baha'is and
Friends. It was a farewell party for a group of 6 Chinese scientist who had
been here working at the Agricultual Research Station for the past year.
They've become regular guests at Baha'i functions just as the two groups
before them had and as the next contingent will probably be. The Baha'i
commnity, The Chinese Cultural Association, Staff from the Agricultural
Research Station, Faculty of the College Agriculture program,
Representatives from the Siikh'ookitooki Native Friendship Center, and other
friends were there. Even the Deputy Mayor attended to wish our Chinese
friends a safe journey home and present each of them with a momento of the
city of Lethbridge. A member of the Assemlby and the chairman of the
College Agricultural program each gave a short talk on the role of
Agriculture in the establishment of world unity and spiritual development.
We had a huge dinner together.
We had 14 musicians; classical music by a couple who teach in the
conservatory program at the U of L., our "house band", NEDA - (Classical
guitarist Dale K. and drummer, Heshmat Mahmoud on the Zarb (I think that's
what those little Persian drums are called)) joined Metis fiddler Reil
Aubauchon and played some strange and wonderful combinations of muscial
styles. A 5 member Chinese band, and a father and son group from
El-Salvador performed. Two Blackfoot drummers played a round dance and
everyone joined in. The children danced and jumped around all evening
without once being told to be still, and I even got the chance to
demonstrate my notorious Highland Fling, accompanied by a Peigan woman in a
shell dress.
Zhao Tangke, the man who spoke on behalf of our 6 Chinese friends,
said, "We will take the love and friendship the Baha'is have given us, home
with us in our hearts."
But shucks, we forgot to get them to sign declaration cards. Well,
what the heck!
Good night folks - This old man's beat from doin' the Highland Fling.
LBG's, Gordon
---
Gordon McFarlane e-mail: MCFARLANE@upanet.uleth.ca
919 11th Sreet South
Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada
T1J2P7
(403)327-2987
=END=
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 96 20:13 GMT+1300
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Alison & Steve Marshall
Subject: re questions on teaching
Terry said:
"Here is the rub: those 90.percent who are not expressive street teachers by
nature have no where to go in a community in which administration is
defined as the essence
of community."
I agree completely with what you are trying to say. I would say, though, that
those 90 percent who are not expressive street teachers by nature have no
where to go in a community in which administration is defined as the essence
of community, and that administration privileges that kind of teaching over
others.
As you say, teaching by definition involves consolidation. This should be
given equal resources, status, and profile that the street teaching gets.
Moreover, my feeling is that if we were able to provide a 'community' to
those 90 percent, we wouldn't need to street teach.
Here's a good story about street teaching. It sums up street teaching for
me. At the NZ summer school in 1972 there was a big street teaching push.
The summer school was held on a campus that was located several miles out of
the main city, Christchurch. Steve attended this summer school as a
non-Baha'i; he was about 16 years old. Anyway, he was driven into the city
along with many other Baha'is to *do* street teaching. Steve kept himself
scarce while all the action went on around him. Due to his invisibility,
they drove off back to campus without him. Steve slept in a stairwell of a
carpark that night.
To be fair, I have to say that he still declared at that summer school anyway.
I interviewed a woman who has just been appointed a counsellor, and she told
me that on that particular occasion, she spent her time 'street teaching'
hiding in a cafe :) It really is interesting what local histories can reveal.
Alison
--------------------------------------------------------------
Alison and Steve Marshall
Email: forumbahai@es.co.nz
90 Blacks Road, Opoho, Dunedin/Otepoti, Aotearoa/New Zealand
--------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 20:07:23 -0800
From: steve.ua@ix.netcom.com (S Lieberman )
Subject: The Guardian re: Hitler (long)
To: gpoirier@acca.nmsu.edu
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Brent:
To follow-up your posts on Talisman and request for excerpts from
Hitler's speech referred to by Shoghi Effendi in his letter dated
Feb. 11, 1934, here's the entire speech, which presumably would be of
much historical interest:
Berlin, Oct. 14--
In November, 1918, in trustful faith in the assurances laid down
in President Wilson's fourteen points, the German people lowered their
arms in the unholy struggle that had reached an end; for which,
perchance, individual statesmen but certainly not the peoples could be
made responsible.
The German people fought so heroically only because it was
sacredly convinced of having been unjustly attacked and thereby being
in the right in the fight. Other nations hardly had an inkling of the
magnitude of the sacrifices which it had then, practically relying
solely on itself, to bring to a stop.
If in those months the world had in a fair manner stretched out a
hand to a prostrate opponent, much suffering and endless
disappointments would have been spared humanity. The German people
suffered the worst possible disappointment. Never before has the
vanquished so honestly endeavored to assist in healing the wounds of
its opponents as had the German people during the long years,
fulfilling dictates loaded upon them.
If all of these sacrifices could not lead to real pacification of
peoples, this was due solely to the nature of the treaty, which, in its
attempt to render eternal the concepts of the victor over the
vanquished, also had to eternalize the hatred of the enemy.
The peoples could rightly have expected that from this greatest
war in the world's history a lesson would be drawn of how small,
especially as concerns European nations, are the chances of possible
gain in proportion to the magnitude of the sacrifices. When,
therefore, in this treaty Germany was compelled to destroy her
armaments to make possible world disarmament, uncounted millions
believed that therein lay merely evidence that redeeming realization
was making headway.
The German people destroyed their weapons. Relying upon the good
faith of their former enemies, they, themselves, fulfilled the
obligation of the treaties with really fanatical fidelity.
Unmeasurable quantities of naval, serial and land war material were
dismantled, destroyed or scrapped. According to the wish of the
dictating powers, a small professional army inadequately armed replaced
the former army of millions.
Political leadership of the nation, however, at this time lay in
the hands of people who were spiritually rooted in a world of the
victor States. The German people could rightly expect for this reason
alone that the rest of the world would redeem its promise in the same
manner as the German people, who in the sweat of their labor amid
thousand fold distress and unspeakable privations were engaged in
redeeming their treaty obligations.
No war can become the permanent condition of mankind. No peace
can be the perpetuation of war. Some time victors and vanquished must
bind the way back into the community of mutual understanding and
confidence. For a decade and a half the German people have hoped and
waited for the time when the end of war would at last become the end of
hatred and enmity. The purpose of the Versailles Treaty, however, did
not seem to be the one to give mankind the final peace, but rather to
keep it in a state of perpetual hatred. The consequences were
unavoidable.
When right definitely yields to might, a lasting uncertainty will
derange and arrest all normal functions of national life.
In concluding this treaty, it was completely forgotten that the
reconstruction of the world cannot be vouchsafed by the slave labor of
the violated nation, but solely through trustful cooperation of all,
and that for this cooperative effort, the elimination of war psychosis
is the foremost pre-condition. It was also forgotten that the
problematical question of responsibility for war cannot be cleared up
historically by having the victor compel the vanquished, as the
introduction to the peace treaty, to sign his confession of
guilt.
The German people is most deeply convinced of its guiltlessness
for the war. Other participants in this tragic misfortune may, as far
as we are concerned, have the same conviction.
How much more necessary is it to emphasize everywhere that such
convinced guiltlessness of all does not turn into an everlasting enmity
and that memories of this worldwide catastrophe shall not be
preserved artificially for that purpose--that unnatural perpetuation of
the idea of the victor that the vanquished shall not create an
everlasting state of inequality, and that after such a prolonged malady
of mankind, filling one side with understandable haughtiness and the
other with bitter wrath, it is not accidental that certain consequences
ensue. The catastrophic decay of economic life was followed by a no
less menacing general political decay.
What sense, if any, did the World War have if its consequences,
not only for the vanquished but also for the victors, manifest
themselves only in an endless chain of economic catastrophes? The
welfare of nations is not any greater, and their political happiness
and their human contentment have not really become deeper. Armies of
unemployed have developed into a new class of society. And precisely
as the nations' economic foundations have been shaken, so now also are
their social foundations beginning to weaken.
Germany had suffered most from these consequences of the peace
treaties and the general instability arising therefrom. The number of
unemployed mounted to one-third of the number normally employed in the
nation's productive life. That means, however, that in Germany some
20,000,000 human beings, counting in the members of families, out of
65,000,000 were without the possibility of existence and found a
hopeless future staring them in the face.
It was merely a question of time when this army, economically
disinherited, had become an army of fanatics who politically and
socially were estranged to the world. One of the oldest lands of
culture in present-day civilized humanity stood with more than
6,000,000 Communists at the brink of a catastrophe which only conceited
ignorance could overlook.
If Red insurrection had overswept Germany like a firebrand,
certainly Western Europe's lands of culture would have realized that it
is not immaterial whether on the Rhine and on the North Sea the
outposts of the spiritually and revolutionary expansive Asiatic world
empire stood watch or the peaceful German peasants and workers, who, in
honest feeling of comradeship with other nations of our European
culture, desire to earn their bread by honest labor. When the National
Socialist movement tore Germany back from the brink of this threatening
catastrophe, it not only saved the German people but also rendered
a historical service to the rest of Europe.
And this National Socialist revolution only pursued one aim--to
restore order within our own people, supply labor with bread for our
hungry masses, proclaim the ideals of honor, loyalty and decency
as the elements of morality which cannot harm us and other nations, but
be of general benefit. If the National Socialist movement was not
representative of that ideal conception, it could not have succeeded
in saving our people from the ultimate catastrophe. The movement has
remained true to its ideals, not only at the time of its struggle into
power, but also when it had obtained power.
Whatever of depravity, dishonorable disposition, knavery and
corruption had accumulated in our people since the unholy Treaty of
Versailles, attacked and fought by us, this movement has pledged itself
to the task of restoring fidelity, faith and decency to their rightful
place, without regard to person.
For eight years we have been fighting a heroic fight against the
Communist threat to our people, putrefaction of our culture,
disintegration of our art, and poisoning of our public morals. To the
denial of God and defamation of religion we have put an end.
We owe Providence humble thanks for not withholding success from
our fight against the distress of unemployment and for saving the
German peasant. In the course of executing the program, the successful
conclusion of which we predicted four years ago, two and a quarter
million out of six million unemployed have, in scarcely eight months,
again been led into useful production.
The best witness for this tremendous achievement is the German
nation itself. It shall prove to the world that it is guided by a
regime which knows no aim but with peaceful labor and civilized culture
to assist in the reconstruction of a world which today could hardly be
called happy. This world, however, which we do no harm and only wish
it would leave us work peaceably, has been persecuting us for months
with a flood of lies and slander.
While in Germany a revolution occurred--not like the French and
the Russian with their catacomb butcheries and the murdered hostages;
not like the communards of Paris or the Red revolutionaries of Bavaria
and Hungary who destroyed culturally valuable buildings and art works
with petroleum but contrarily smashed not a single show window, looted
no store, damaged no house -- unscrupulous agitators spread a flood of
atrocity tales only comparable to the lies fabricated by the same
elements at the beginning of the war.
Tens of thousands of Americans, Englishmen and Frenchmen during
these months visited Germany and could with their own eyes make
observations that there was no land on earth with more law and more
order than present-day Germany, that in no land in the world was a
person's propety more highly respected than in Germany, but that
perhaps, also, to be sure, in no land in the world is there a
sharper combat against those who, as criminal elements, believe they
may freely let their low instincts vent themselves at the expense of
their fellow-humans. It is these and their communistic accomplices who
today are attempting to set honest and decent nations at loggerheads.
The German nation has no reason to envy the rest of the world for
this gain. We are convinced that a few years will suffice thoroughly
to open the eyes of honor-loving citizens of other nations concerning
the real value of those worthy elements, who, traveling under the
effective flag of political fugitives, cleared out of the scenes of
their more or less extensive economic consciencelessness.
But what would this world say about Germany if we permitted a
mock trial to be held of a creature who attempted to set fire to the
British Parliament, a mock trial whose only meaning could be
that of placing British justice and its judges on a lower level than
such a scoundrel? As a German and National Socialist I would have no
interest in exerting myself in Germany on behalf of a foreigner who in
England tries to undermine the State and the laws effective there or
even attacks with fire the architectural symbol of the British
Constitution.
And even if this subject--from which disgrace we hope God may
spare us--were a German, we would not back him, but rather would deeply
regret that such a misfortune had struck us, and we would harbor but
only one wish, namely, that British justice might mercilessly liberate
humanity from such a menace. Collaterally, however, we also possess
honor enough to be filled with indignation at the spectacle which,
instigated by obscure elements, is intended but to shame and dishonor
Germany's highest court.
We are extremely sad at the thought that by such methods nations
are set at loggerheads and estranged, of whom we know that in their
hearts they stand infinitely above these elements--nations whom
we desire to respect and with whom we are anxious to live together in
honest friendship. These noxious low-class fellows succeeded in
starting the world psychosis whose inner morbid hysterical conflict may
be branded as classic.
The same elements, which on one hand lament "oppression" and
"tyrannization" of the poor German people by Nazi potentates, declare
on the other hand, with brazen unconcern, that the Germans' pacific
professions are valueless because they are uttered only by a few Nazi
Ministers or the Chancellor, whereas in the nation a wild war spirit is
raging. Thus, the German people are represented at one time as
piteously unhappy and oppressed, at another time as brutally
aggressive--as the case may call for.
I regard it as a sign of a nobler sense of justice that French
Premier Daladier, in his last speech, found words to indicate the
spirit of conciliatory understanding for which untold millions of
Germans are grateful at heart.
National Socialist Germany has no other wish than to direct the
competition of European people again to those fields of endeavor upon
which they have given to all humanity through the noblest mutual
rivalry those magnificent boons to civilization, culture and art which
today enrich and beautify the picture of the world.
Similarly, we take cognizance, with hopeful emotion, of the
assurance that the French Government, under its present chief, does not
intend to wound the feelings of or humiliate the German
people.
We are touched by the reference to the unfortunately but too sad
truth that these two great peoples so often in history have sacrificed
the blood of their best youths and men on the battlefields. I speak in
the name of the entire German people when I solemnly declare that we
all are imbued with the sincere wish to wipe out an enmity that, as
regards its sacrifices, is all out of proportion to any possible gain.
The German people are convinced that its martial honor in
thousands of battles and skirmishes has remained clean and without
blemish, exactly as we also see in the French soldier our old glory-
bedecked opponent.
We and the entire German people would all be happy at the thought
of sparing to the children and to the children's children of our people
what we ourselves, as honorable men in bitter long years have had to
witness and what we ourselves have endured in the way of misery and
pain. The history of the last 150 years, through all their
vicissitudes, ought to have taught both peoples one thing, namely, that
the essential changes of lasting duration are no longer possible no
matter how much blood is sacrificed.
As a National Socialist I, together with all my followers,
decline on the very basis of our nationalistic principles to conquer
the people of a strange nation who will not love us anyway by
sacrificing the blood and lives of those who are dear and precious to
us. It would be a tremendous event for the entire humanity if the two
peoples could once for all ban force from their common life.
The German people are ready for this. While we frankly claim
the rights granted to us by the treaty themselves, I will say just as
frankly that, beyond this, there are no more territorial conflicts as
far as Germany is concerned. After the return of the Saar to the Reich
only a madman could believe in the possibility of war between the two
States--for which, as we see it, no moral or reasonably justifiable
ground exists. Nobody can wish that millions of young lives be
annihilated for the sake of a boundary correction of doubtful extent
and of doubtful value.
When, however, the French Premier asks why the German youth is
marching and falling in line, I reply it is not to demonstrate against
France, but to evince that political determination, and give visible
evidence thereof, that was necessary for throwing down communism and
that will be necessary to hold it down. There is in Germany but one
arms bearer, and that is the army. There exists for the National
Socialist organizations but one enemy, and that is communism.
The world, however, must accept the fact that the German people,
for their internal organization and to preserve our people from this
danger, will choose those forms which alone can guarantee success.
If the rest of the world digs itself in behind indestructible
fortresses, builds tremendous aerial squadrons, constructs giant tanks
and molds enormous cannon, it cannot talk of being threatened because
German National Socialists, totally unarmed, are marching in columns of
four and thereby are giving visible expression of effective protection
to the German community of citizens.
If, furthermore French Premier Daladier raises the question as to
why, forsooth, Germany demands weapons which must later be destroyed
anyway he is in error--the German people and the German Government have
not demanded weapons at all, but equality.
If the world decides that all weapons, including the last machine
gun, are to be destroyed, we are ready immediately to join such a
convention. If the world decides that certain categories of weapons
are to be destroyed we are ready to renounce them from the beginning.
If, however, the world concedes certain weapons to every nation we are
not ready to permit ourselves, in principle, to be excluded therefrom
as a nation of minor rank.
If, in accordance with our convictions, we defend this viewpoint
honorably we are more decent partners for other nations than if we were
ready, in contravention of this conviction, to accept humiliating
dishonorable conditions. Our signature binds the whole nation, whereas
a dishonorable, characterless negotiator is only disavowed by his own
people.
When we wish to make treaties with the English, French or Poles,
we want from the start to make them only with men who think and act 100
per cent English, French or Polish, for we do not want pacts with
negotiators but with nations.
And when we turn upon unscrupulous agitators, we do so because it
is not the agitators, but unhappily the nations, which have paid with
blood for the sins of this world-wide poisoning. Previous
German Governments trustfully joined the League of Nations, hoping to
find therein a forum for the equitable adjustment of the interests of
the peoples, and, before all, sincere reconciliation with former
adversaries. The prerequisite for this, however, was the final
recognition of the equal status of the German people.
Participation in the disarmament conference followed under the
same assumption. Declassification to the rank of non-equal membership
in such an institution or conference is unbearable humiliation for an
honor-loving government.
The German people has fulfilled its disarmament obligations to
more than the full measure. The turn would seem to have come for armed
nations to do no less than meet their analogous obligations. The
German Government is not participating in this conference in order to
barter for a single cannon or machine gun for the German people, but as
a factor with equal rights to help in the general pacification of
the world. Germany's security constitutes no inferior right to the
security of the other nations.
If British Acting Premier Baldwin regards it as self-evident that
England understands disarmament to mean nothing but disarmament of the
more highly armed nations concomitantly with England's increasing
armaments to a common level, then will it be an unfair reproach upon
Germany, when, finally, as a member with equal rights in this
conference, it claims the same interpretation for itself?
In this demand by Germany there cannot possibly be any threat to
the rest of the powers, for the defensive armament of other peoples is
constructed to ward off the heaviest weapons of attack, while
Germany demands no weapons of attack, but only those defensive arms
which in the future are not to be forbidden, but permitted to all
nations. Here, too, Germany is ready at once to content itself
numerically with the minimum that is all out of proportion to the
gigantic armaments of attack and defense of our former enemies.
The deliberate relegation of our people to an inferior class, in
that every nation of the world is conceded the self-evident right which
is denied us, we feel, is the perpetuation of a discrimination
unbearable to us. In my peace speech of last May I said that under
such conditions we would regretfully no longer be able to belong to the
League or to participate in international conferences.
The men who today lead Germany have nothing in common with the
mercenary traitors of November, 1918. We all, like every decent
Englishman and decent Frenchman, have done our duty toward our country
at the risk of our lives. We are not responsible for the war, nor are
we responsible for what occurred therein, but we feel responsible only
for what every man of honor was called upon to do in that time of
distress, and what we too did.
We cling with exactly the same boundless love to our people as
we, out of this love, wish for understanding with other nations and
try, whenever we can, to achieve it. It is, however, impossible for
us, as representatives of an honorable nation and of an honest
conscience, to participate in institutions under conditions that would
be bearable only for the dishonorable. As far as we are concerned,
there may once have been men who may have believed they could
participate in international conferences, even though thus weighed
down. It is futile to seek to establish whether they themselves were
the best part of our nation, but it is certain that the best part of
the nation never backed them.
The world can only be interested in dealing with honorable men,
not those of doubtful integrity--can conclude treaties with the former,
not the latter. The world must on its side take into account the
feelings and the sense of honor of such a regime, just as we do. This
is all the more essential as only in such an atmosphere can measures be
devised leading to the genuine pacification of peoples. For the spirit
of such conferences can only be that of sincere understanding.
Otherwise all endeavors are doomed to failure from the start.
Having gathered from the declarations of the official
representatives of the great powers that they are not thinking of
genuine equality for Germany at the moment, it is thus not possible at
present for Germany, so placed in a dishonorable position, to intrude
itself upon other nations.
Threats of force, if carried out, could only be breaches of law.
The German Government is most deeply convinced that her appeal to the
whole German nation will prove to the world that the government's love
of peace as well as its conception of honor, are also those of the
whole nation.
To give this claim documentary form I decided to beg the Reich
President to dissolve the Reichstag and give the German people
opportunity for making a historic affirmation by means of new
elections, coupled with a plebiscite not only for the purpose of
approving the government's basic principles but also for testifying to
their unreserved unity with them.
May the world, from such an affirmation, gain the conviction that
the German people, in this battle for equality and honor, declare
itself completely at one with the government, but also that both are
animated at heart by no other desire than to help end the human epoch
of tragic aberrations, regrettable quarrels and fights between those
who, as denizens of the culturally most important continent, have to
fulfill the common mission before mankind.
May this tremendous manifestation of our people for peace with
honor succeed, creating in the interrelationships of European States
such conditions as are requisite for termination not only of centuries-
old discord and strife but also for rebuilding a better community
through the recognition of a higher common duty springing from common
equal rights.
end--
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Fwd: Baha`i online
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 02:02:48 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Hi, Tony -
There are four Baha'is who work (as AOL remote staff) for the Ethics
and Religion Forum on America Online. Ed Ordaz (Vahid19@aol.com) runs
the Baha'i message board. I (TFPMark@aol.com) am the chief Baha'i
chat host for the forum (in the Front Porch chat area), and my two
assistants are Shirley Macias (GataTFP@aol.com) and George Lord, Jr.
(TFPGeorge@aol.com). If we can be of assistance, please let any of us
know. For general matters, it is probably best to contact Ed. However,
we are all in contact with each other.
If she writes to Edmund5169, and tells him she is a Baha'i, he will,
at her request, place her on the AOL Baha'i mailing list. She will then
be kept informed of Baha'i activities on AOL (and elsewhere).
Warm greetings,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Past President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Director, Reality Studies Institute [sm] Owner, Baha'i Studies List *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Office: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 Home: 913/768-4244 Fax: 913/469-4409 *
*Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) UWG94A (Prodigy) *
*mfoster@tyrell.net mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us (Baha'i List Co-Moderator) *
*72642,3105 (Staff, 3 CompuServe Religion Fora, incl. Baha'i Section Leader) *
*Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Baha'i Staff) *
*Home Pages: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality *
* http://home.aol.com/Realityman (Note: The Web is Case-Sensitive)*
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 00:51:26 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Dr. Soroush's response (fwd)
Dear talizens--
The following is a recent response to the Iranian foreign minister by
Abdu'l-Karim Soroush printed in the daily Salam newspaper. It's badly
translated, as you will see, but interesting nevertheless.
Nima
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 02:38:36 -0400
From: Jahanshah Javid
To: Nima Hazini-Sadra
Subject: Dr. Soroush 's response
For the Flower of Freedom
The following is a response by Dr. Abdolkarim Soroush, a reformist Islamic
thinker, to a recent statement by Iran's Foreign Minister Dr. Ali Akbar
Velayati.
Dr. Soroush, who recently returned to Iran after attending conferences on
the Middle East in Europe and the United States, rejects accusations of
creating "scandal" and "weakening the foundations of national independence
and harmony."
"That which will guarantee the permanence of religion and belief," he says,
"is only and only the spread of ideas and that requires freedom -- a pure
principle without which nothing can be permanent."
And he adds: "Cling to freedom, because among God's favorite creations,
freedom is most beautiful and delicate... Tolerate the thorn (if there is a
thorn) for the sake of the beauty of the flower."
Dr. Soroush's response was, for the most part, reprinted in Iran's daily
Salam. What follows is the full text of the response as well as a news
clipping containing Dr. Velayati's statements.
In the name of God
He whose thoughts
Solve world problems,
Tell him, "Give me
Better insight than this."
Tell him "Your lips
Are doing me a favor --
A really great favor. But
Do me a better favor..."
Being involved in world issues has apparently not left any time for the
foreign minister of Iran to look closely at domestic affairs. Until now,
many obscurers of the truth and many deceivers had resorted to various
distortions concerning the "Dr. Soroush issue", all of which I ignored
because [as the Qoran says,] "pass by futility with honorable avoidance."
But this time, irresponsible remarks have been made by a responsible
official of the country, which are so painful to the heart of the truth
that [this Qoranic verse] resounds in my ears: "Invite all to the path of
thy Lord with wisdom and good preaching."
A student at [Tehtan's] Imam Sadeq University asked the foreign minister
this question in an open forum: "Has the Dr. Soroush issue caused any
problems for Iran in international affairs?" And [the foreign minister]
answered: "Yes. The Dr. Soroush issue definitely affects our foreign policy
situation." (Daily Kayhan's report on Dr. Velayati's comments).
This in itself is an interesting point to hear since it is a statement that
is related to the foreign minister's job, as it is based on confidential
and non-confidential messages which the minister is naturally informed of,
and contains concerns which he and his ambassadors have been facing around
the world.
But when it comes to an assessment of the "Dr. Soroush issue" at home, the
weakness and crudeness [of the foreign minister's statements] becomes
apparent.
>From the foreign minister's point of view, the "Dr. Soroush issue" is that
he drags "scholastic issues into public forums" and he creates "scandals"
and "weakens the foundations of national independence and harmony, as well
as the state" and "harms the people's national and ideological
foundations." And [from the foreign minister's point of view,] not only is
this not a service [to the nation] "but antagonistic toward the nation" and
it is similar to the things Ahmad Kasravi (1) used to do.
The picture that the foreign minister has painted of Dr. Soroush is one of
a sorcerer or a prophet. But is it logical to say that a person who does
not have access to radio or television stations, to newspapers, to mosques,
to Friday prayer tribunes and to religious gatherings; a person who is
constantly pounded by the mass media with the ugliest attacks and
accusations such as spying, incompetence, treachery, freemasonry, being an
American agent , hypocrisy, liberalism, and being another Salman Rushdie,
Kasravi, Malcolm Khan (2) and so on (including the latest accusations by
the foreign minister), could weaken the pillars of national independence
and harmony and harm the foundations of the people's national and religious
beliefs, and weaken the state?
[Is it logical to accuse me of these things when] my speeches are stopped
and prohibited by beating me and tearing off my clothes and when at the
same time, thugs are given medals of honor? I am a person whose only
opportunity is to write and publish an article every two or three months in
a specialized magazine with limited circulation and someone who collects
those very same articles for a book (which is now also being threatened
with censorship).
What happened to all the speeches, articles, films, books, magazines,
newspapers and speakers who loudly work day and night in the interests of
the state and guide the people? Where have they all gone? And how is it
that their efforts to strengthen the national and religious beliefs of the
people is not getting anywhere and only this writer, with his broken pen
and shut up mouth, who has no freedom of expression and no personal
security (I have many times heard thugs and attackers threatening me with
death and burning and I have read their threatening letters) has succeeded
in casting a dark cloud? God knows that not even sorcerers have such
powers.
Anyhow, Soroush is neither a sorcerer nor a prophet, only one of God's
humble creatures.
The strange picture of Iranian society presented by the foreign minister is
that of a termite-infested orphanage that could crumble with the slightest
shove and whose children's minds would be in disarray with the lowest cry.
And the picture that he has painted of himself is that of a medieval
priest, appointed foreign minister of the Islamic Republic of Iran at the
end of the 20th century, wielding the weapon of excommunication in front of
the alert eyes and ears of the world, while ignoring his responsibilities
to preserve the cultural interests, integrity and reputation of this
country.
He resorts to such statements for the sake of domestic consumption in order
to remove a rival whom he compares to Ahmad Kasravi, thus further
endangering that person's life. And he does not even act upon his own words
that "nothing should be said to give pretext to the enemies of this country
and people." By speaking in such a way, he himself is not only giving a
pretext to the enemy but also disgracing a strong culture whose slogan has
been: "show generosity toward friends and caution toward enemies."
He does not stop to think for one moment that if the "Dr. Soroush issue" is
an international issue, it is precisely because this case is an example of
the lack of security that the pen pushers of this land experience, and
because even the foreign minister resorts to comparisons and analogies
within familiar and unpleasant contexts.
Yes, Mr. Foreign Minister, the "Dr. Soroush issue" is nothing but the fact
that in this country, whenever a selfless truth teller starts speaking out
of pain and for the sake of religious reform, he is stripped of his
reputation, freedom and security and nailed so hard with curses,
accusations of heresy and threats in mosques, the press and the radio and
television that he is unable to move in any direction.
And they do not stop at that either. They then send misled individuals to
attack him in broad daylight so that after breaking his reputation, they
could snatch what is left of his half-alive body. And then people like the
foreign minister come along, blindly opening their mouth and making not the
slightest mention of all those cruel and wicked acts against a servant
among the servants of the pen in the cultural scene, throwing dust in the
eyes of fairness and putting the weight of all the wrongs, treacheries and
condemnations on the weak shoulders of someone [like me], reminding him of
the fearful fate of the likes of Kasravi, suggesting that he be silent, and
in the end demanding that he be not "antagonistic toward this nation" and
not give pretext to the enemy -- as if those whose violent actions present
this nation as savage, uncultured and abusive of human rights, are not the
enemies of the nation and do not give pretext to the enemy!
Mr. Foreign Minister! A government and a country cannot claim virtue or
honor if its academic community and artists are oppressed, intimidated and
treated as criminals for expressing their views, and live in fear and
insecurity, and are scared of exercising their intellectual and artistic
talents, and see their lives, work and reputation attacked by hooligans. [A
government and a country cannot claim virtue or honor] when, at the same
time, a bunch of ignorant individuals mock science and justice and ruin the
reputation of a country and a nation by waving the whip of fear, and who
rely on their ignominious views and ideas to demand the submission of
scholars, and who neither care about the interests of the country nor of
the nation when they act upon the commands of instigators and puppet
masters.
Mr. Foreign Minister! Dr. Soroush thirsts neither for wealth nor power nor
fame, and he does not speak with domestic or foreign interests in mind. He
does not strive to protect a post or seek any reward from anyone for his
(right or wrong) remarks. Rather he has something to say; he has pain,
courage, faith, rights and responsibility. He has given his heart to a
gentle, spiritual, heavenly and humane religion and wants its glory and
splendor.
He believes that the cultural foundations of this land are stronger than a
termite-infested orphanage and sees the people of this society more mature
than school children and strives for the interests and reputation of this
land in such a way that he will not create a weapon or pretext for the
enemy by saying anything imprudent. And he is so patient toward the
indecencies of the indecent and the threats of those who make the enemy
happy by destroying security, that he ignores them and does not respond to
them.
He has accumulated experiences in time and has learned from great men, and
he assures you that the interests of this country and its people, and that
which will guarantee the permanence of religion and belief, is only and
only the spread of ideas and that requires freedom -- a pure principle
without which nothing can be permanent.
Mr. Foreign Minister! I advise you not to join voices with groups that
fight against freedom and distort the lofty name and good image of this
country in the eyes of foreigners and future generations, or with those who
worship violence and distort truth and religion. They add no jewel to this
country's crown or bring more glory to its glories.
Cling to freedom because, among God's favorite creations, freedom is most
beautiful and delicate. Do not give excuses for plucking the petals of the
flower of freedom. Instead, tolerate the thorn (if there is a thorn) for
the sake of the beauty of the flower. Do not hand over this dear gem to
evil forces.
And show Iranians and the world that the words and deeds of Iran's
politicians and policy makers are one; that they are in deed serious in
their freedom-seeking claims, and that they do not overtly or covertly
collaborate with the enemies of freedom. It is this very thought and
freedom which will ultimately uproot all evil enemies from this land.
Appreciate those who speak justly without expecting anything in return.
To you, I seem
Small and weak.
But I can be an arrow
And thrown at the
Eyes of enemies.
The dervish does not posses
Even a petal compared to
The sultan's palace.
There is only me and my
Wornout garment that could
Set fire to the palace.
[Qoranic verse:] "My Lord! I truly called my people to Your path day and
night. But they learned nothing but escape... and they brought tricks and
more tricks... My Lord! Give thy blessings to me, to my father and my
mother, and to anyone who came to me out of faith, and there is nothing but
humiliation for oppressors."
Abdolkarim Soroush
31 December 1995
--------------------------------------------------------------------
(1) A clergyman in the early part of the 20th century who left the clergy
to become a secular ultra-nationalist. He was assassinated by the Fedayeen
Islam militia.
(2) A leading secular intellectual in the Iranian Constitutional Movement
in the late 1800s.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
>From the daily Kayhan, December 26, 1995:
"New Points Regarding Foreign Policy and Domestic Issues in Foreign
Minister Velayati's Discussion with Students"
...In response to a member of the audience [at a question and answer
session at the Imam Sadeq University in Tehran] about whether the Dr.
Soroush issue had become a problem in Iran's international affairs, [Dr.
Ali Akbar Velayati] said:
Yes. The Dr. Soroush issue definitely affects our foreign policy situation.
If someone intends to serve the people, he should remember that if he says
something that will be reflected in society and in the world, and will give
a pretext to the enemies of this country, he should be fair and not say it.
Public forums are not the place for scholastic issues. Dragging these
issues to the newspapers and public places and creating scandals and
weakening the foundations of national independence and harmony is not a
service, but rather antagonistic toward the people of this country. If
someone says something that creates problems for this revolution, which is
under pressure from all sides, he has not done this nation a service.
There was a time when Ahmad Kasravi said things and wasted the spiritual
wealth of this nation with his quarrelsome words -- a time when the
spiritual wealth of this country was also being attacked by Reza Khan
[Pahlavi] and the British.
Compared to other Islamic and third world countries, we are very
successful. These kinds of actions are not in the interest of the country
and the people. Therefore, even if there is no mal-intent, these attitudes
certainly do have negative results. Ruining national and religious beliefs
is not a service to the country, to the people or to Islam.
(END)
=END=
From: Dcorbett@aol.com
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 05:44:44 -0500
To: PIERCEED@sswdserver.sswd.csus.edu, Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Baha'i online
In a message dated 96-01-19 21:00:20 EST, PIERCEED@sswdserver.sswd.csus.edu
(Eric D. Pierce) writes:
>Hi,
>
>I'll contact her about the possibility of an internet accessible
>(WWW?) talisman archive. Maybe the talisman/Interact "e-zine"
>could reside there too. Any thoughts about privacy problems?
>
>I'll also send her the latest Usenet s.r.b. documents about Baha'i
>WWW sites.
>
>EP
>(PierceED@csus.edu)
>
>
Eric... I have already volunteered to set up an Web site for talisman. I
am not familair with the archive ideas, or talisman/interact "e-zine"...
Perhaps I can help with those things as well?
- Dan
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 17:11:23 PST
Subject: Re: Infallibility over Lunch
To: George Gary , 748-9178@mcimail.com,
Jim Blake <0006596916@mcimail.com>, talisman@indiana.edu
On Fri, 19 Jan 1996 14:38:01 -0500 (EST) George Gary wrote:
>
>We know that the system brought to us by the Blessed Beauty is
organic,
>that is it is like an organism where all of the parts are supposed
to
>work harmoniously.
snip
I think that the principles of consultation are key to tie
>the points so far brought up on infallibility together to a coherent
whole.
>
snip
The point is that sometimes we can look at
>a single word or a particular principle in the Faith and miss part
of
>the meaning or purpose by not taking into mind the relationship to
the
>whold of this "Perfect System".
>
>Enough for now!
>
Good point.
be love,
Philip
>
>
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/19/96
Time: 17:11:24
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: Dcorbett@aol.com
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 06:09:57 -0500
To: cfarhoum@osf1.gmu.edu, 72110.2126@compuserve.com
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Demilitarization
In a message dated 96-01-19 21:16:15 EST, cfarhoum@osf1.gmu.edu (Cheshmak A
Farhoumand) writes:
>A few weeks ago i was at a Christmas party and one of the guests used to
>work in the military here in the US. He made a comment which particularly
>perturbed me. As you all probably know i am studying peace and conflict
>studies so i was interested in hearing this gentleman's views on certain
>issues. At one point in our conversation, he very casually said "What we
>need in this country just about now is a good war. That would set our
>economy right again!!" I was shocked to say the least and now that you
This viewpoint is more common than you think. I find it horrifying, but
there
are many in this country who would agree with that. Any benefits to the
United States though, are outweighed by the cost of the lives of the
soldiers,
and the damage done to those other nations..
>mentioned war economies, it might be interesting to note that some
>economists (such as from the Coventry Business School) are very
>comfortable these days in arguing that international economic cooperation
>and interdependence is more economically beneficial to all those involved
>than war economies. They feel confident in saying this i think because it
>this age of the global village we are witness to such unions and its
>fruits.
A War on poverty with the United States putting the same degree of effort
into it
would make a difference... We could use the manpower in our armed forces
to rebuild our inner cities... Look at DC with the poor roads, etc... They
could
use some help..
- Dan
=END=
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 07:43:54 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: The legitimacy of Homosexuality
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Talisman"
I posted this as a reply to a writer on Baha'i Discuss and I am reposting
it here. The remarks I made in my letter to Talisman were only intended
as my own critical analysis of the Writings. This response is also a
reflection of limitions of my persons and I hope people will not feel ill
towards me for expressing it. I think this forum is intended for Baha'is
to do so and this should be received with a generous spirit.
Richard
>Dear John,
>
>I feel the difficulty one faces is that no amount of even the most
>judicious reasoning is likely to dissuade persons of that prediliction,
>although, logically or theoretically it appears that it should. No answer
>it seems, that doesn't validate homosexual behavior will be satisfacory,
>and will only produce resentment.
>Intuitively it seems to me that the crux of the problem resides in the
>perception (by homosexuals) that by not validating these actions
>heterosexuals are condemning homosexuals--that they are percieved as bad
>by definition. I feel, if we are honest with ourselves, we will have to
>admit this and apologize. I think at that point we can start to make
>progress in solving this difficulty. If we can be Baha'is and follow
>Baha'u'llah's adomonitions about our behavior towards others then we have
>a chance to reconcile this issue. If we demonstrate the love that should
>characterize the behavior of Baha'is I feel a difference can be made. I
>think this may be the source of the quibling with the authority and
>infallibility of the institutions by Friends who are gay and also
>heterosexual Baha'is who sympathize with the plight of their brethern
>Baha'is and non-Baha'i alike; and take up their cause in a way that
>perhaps is not the most wise.
>
>Please reply with your thoughts.
>
>Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 08:45:17 -0600 (CST)
Subject: I Just wanna be loved: Is that so bad?
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Talisman"
Dear Talismanians,
I don't want to be sloppy here but I don't think wanting this is so bad.
I want to be loved. I need to be loved (this is part of the lyric to my
new song). I'm becoming a songwriter. I want the folks on this list to
love me also as I love them.
Is that so bad? (laughter)
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: forumbahai@es.co.nz
Cc: Don_R._Calkins%*@commonlink.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: about homosexuality
Date: 20 Jan 1996 08:56:25 GMT
> Is homosexuality in the "hardware" or "software"
I tho't it was obvious from recent research that it is both.
The fact that seperated twins studies show a positive corelation seems to
prove a hardware component. The fact that it does not approach 1 and is
higher with increased education suggests a software component.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: charles@oneworld.wa.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: American News Coverage
Date: 20 Jan 1996 08:56:04 GMT
> I guess what struck a cord in me is that in
> all of the news dissemenation available on TV in the US, PBS and NPR comes
> closest to (to me at least) presenting information that is the least
> slanted, and displays an earnest search for truth.
I think this is generally accepted.
We are very lucky here in Iowa to have the entire state have access to at
least 1 public radio station. WOI was the first educationally owned station
in the nation and provided the prototype for the current state-wide system.
Each of the 3 state schools runs both an Am and an FM station, plus most of
the community college districts also have either an AM or FM station. These
are all run locally, and have their peculiarities, and feed local shows to
each other as well as picking up the feeds from NPR and PRI (Public Radio
International which distributes a variety of material including the Canadian
CBC).
WOI-AM is primarily news and talk radio. It carries the BBC international
service all night. Mornings from 9 to noon it is talk radio, either Talk of
the Nation from NPR or Talk of Iowa locally. During the last fund-raiser,
they had the producer from All Things Considered to discuss with Iowans the
liberal/conservative bias on ATC. The statement was made that the goal of
any major peice is to have as many objections from conservatives as there are
from liberals. When both sides attack them for the same peice, they assume
that they were probably pretty close to the mark.
They have been keeping very detailed records for many years on the response
to their peices. They now log in every letter as to whether it is for or
against the liberal or conservative bias in a peice. While they sometimes
miss the mark quite a bit, over the course of a year, the overall response is
very close to the middle.
It's not without reason that for the past 25 years, NPR has recieved more
awards for its news coverage than the other services combined.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: jrcole@umich.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Standards
Date: 20 Jan 1996 08:57:21 GMT
> How do we separate out essential
> principle from some historically conditioned, culture-bound and ad hoc
> pronouncements that exist in our Writings?
By conscious effort to concentrate on the principles as enunciated in the
Writings, and realizing that this is a situation that will evolve at least
until the Golden Age.
Some general comments on this general issue and the posts over the last 6
months to no one in particular -
I think it is helpful to remember that we are as yet very immature, are like
children, and should therefore treat each other accordingly. Prohibitions of
activities are often not the best way to teach a child. Rather, having been
told that a certain type of activity is wrong, we must give them the
opportunity to make mistakes and then to learn from them. Some children make
the same dumb mistake over and over and over. So do some Baha'is and Baha'i
institutions. But just as with a child, chastizing them, particularly
publicly, is not a good way to inspire a child to better behavior.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 12:12:43 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Mrs. Parson's diary -sign me up
I'll take one! What is the cost and the address to send the $$.
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 13:02:20 EST
Subject: Re: Abdu'l Baha in America
On January 19, 1996 Terry Culhane wrote
>Thanks Jim . I hope you will pursue this thought
>further . I consider it darn important to a sense of who we are as a people
>or in Abdul Baha's words " how to be and how to live. "
On December 20, 1996 Jim Harrison wrote:
I lost the original post. But at the time I read it carefully and made the
following notes. I tried to talk to its owner without success.
>"Look at who our mass teaching projects appealed to."
>"...look at the majority of the people we attracted to the Cause."
>"trained bears" (???)
>reminders "of the folks on the Potomac River". (I presume those who
are like politicians and bureacrats? QDL).
>"Anti-intellectuals"
>"anti-establishment"
>"wonderful mixture of middle and lower-middle class disenfranchised
folk who spent gobs of time in front of the t.v."
>"intellectuals"
>"dragon slayers"
>"jerks"
>"buffalo bagles"
>"sincere believers"
>"dancing bears and negative forces"
>"three or four dozen disgruntled scholars..leaders of thought"
>"a few dozen stick-in-the muds"
>"troglodytes" (Webster defines as "anyone who lives in primitive,
low or degenerate fashion..an anthropoid ape..."
*******************
I am having great difficulty in reconciling my responses to these
very different messages. Has Abdu'l'Baha used these labels
while he was in U.S. and Europe or anywhere else? How can we even
think of such phrases? How can we work together while carrying
such attitudes towards another human being? I am at a loss.
Is it possible to have a trusting and loving relationship with each
other when we see postings such as? I am sure you noticed the gradual
(those who been here since last June) loss of the loving character of
my poems. Yes! because I am angry at the overt and subtle arrogance
displayed from time to time by such statements as above.
Of course, I know what some will react with. They've done it before
to others."I'm sorry, but she is just plain crazy" "I'm okay,
she/he/they are not!" Typical response of amateur mind-readers from a
society sunk in the depths of pop-psychology with no spirituality.
Perhaps, now you may understand about my facetious but clumsy
attempts of trying to write with a Southern twang.
All I can say is that I pray I will survive the storm and thick ice
as did my herb-plants in the backyard. I was amazed at the vibrancy
of the mint, sage, parsley with a few brown spots they were looking
at the sky with defiance. It reminded me of the time, I rescued a
tiny 3" inch seedling tomatoe plant growing between a brick wall and
a concrete side-walk. Steven Kollins was with me, when I knelt down
and talked with it and brought it home. Plants can teach us lessons
that intellectuals cannot. Maybe plants are more intelligent, or live
up to their utmost capacity to "be", by using what they innately
"know" to "love" that is.
lovingly,
quanta
=END=
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 09:02:25 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: The Mystical Conference February 23-25th 1996.
To: talisman@indiana.edu
---- Begin Forwarded Messa
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: The Mystical Conference February 23-25th 1996.
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Sender: owner-talisman@indiana.edu
Precedence: bulk
Status: RO
Mystical Conference.
February 23-25 Bosch Baha'i School Santa Cruz California.
Facilitated by David Langness.
Presenters include Terry Culane and Steve Scholl.
Price $100.00 room and board.
Registeration is now open.
You can register by phone 408-423-3387,Fax 408-427-7564 , E'mail Bosch
@usbnc.org or direct to myself.
We have several special upgraded deluxe cabins at a rate of $10 per
night extra.This is a tax deductable
receipt for the Bosch Cabin Renovation program.
I would suggest you register early the Bosch Program for Fall/Winter
goes out in about 10 days.I wanted
to give people on Talisman the first chance at the Conference.I think
it will fill quickly.
Kindest Regards Derek Cockshut.
This is the orginal notice that was posted some time ago . The brochure
and the Bosch Home page now have the conference details . If you plan
to come I suggest you book soon . We expect a full house as others
discover the event .
=END=
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 12:45:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Baha'u'llah's notes to "Ode of the Dove"
Here I post a provisional translation of Baha'u'llah's notes to His "Ode
of the Dove."
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
Notes:
4. Shadows of the clouds: A reference to that which He hath said,
Blessed and Exalted may He be, "That God should come down to
them overshadowed with clouds [Q. 2:210]."
To move: A reference to the mountains moving, insofar as they
will stir even as clouds, as He hath said, "and thou shalt see the
mountains, that thou supposest fixed, passing by like clouds [Q.
27:88]." All these are signs of the Resurrection Day, and the events
associated therewith.
7. Solaced: Which is to say, illumined. From the fragrance of Her
locks the breeze of delight and splendor, and the perfume of
compassion and glory, have been wafted from north of the paradise of
the divine Essence, which stretcheth to the right of the eternal garden.
In this wise, perchance the dusty bones of the substances of all created
things shall be honored with life without end and everlasting existence,
and bestow honor upon the pride of Being through the agency of those
heart-entrancing gales and pleasing, fragrant scents that waft from the
wondrous and imperishable chalice that holds a new, incomparable
wine. Even so, the eye of true Beauty, of which the sun of the heaven
of Being is the least significant sign, did by gazing upon Her face
become brilliant, radiant and illumined. Exalted be God, Her Creator,
above that of which ye make mention.
8. When Moses cleansed and sanctified the feet of the divine Self,
Who had been consigned to human form, from the sandals of
contingent fancies and drew forth the hand of divine Power from the
fold of grandeur in the cloak of splendor, He arrived in the holy, good
and blessed valley of the heart. This is the base of the throne of
everlasting effulgence and the seat of divine and glorious converse.
And when He reached that land of Sinai, which lieth outstretched to
the right of the illumined Spot, He smelled the perfumed odor of the
Spirit from east of eternity, and perceived the undying lights from all
directions, without direction. After the darkened glass of self had been
removed, the wick of the divine Essence blazed forth in the lamp of his
heart, ignited by the passionate scent of godly love and the flaming
brand of the fire of divine unity. And after the stations of opposition
had been eliminated, He arrived in the valley of eternal sobriety
through the wine of the attainment to an incomparable Countenance
and the pure nectar of the imperishable.
Through the attractive power of His longing for the divine
Meeting, He became aware of the city of everlasting life. "He entered
the city at a time when its people were heedless" (Q. 28:15). And
behold, He discerned the fire of the timeless godhead, and shone with
the light of the Almighty God. He said to His family, "Do ye tarry
here. Verily, I observe a fire" (Q. 20:10). When He discovered and
perceived the visage of pre-existent, most gracious Guidance in the
tree that is neither of the east nor the west (Q. 24:35), the changeable
and ephemeral face was honored and glorified by attaining to the
ancient, imperishable Countenance. In the blazing fire He discovered
the wondrous, inaccessible visage of Guidance which had been
concealed in the bosoms of the Unseen. This is that to which He then
gave utterance: "or I shall find guidance in this fire." (Q. 20:10).
Even so, perceive ye the intent of the blessed verse, "He who
made for ye fire from the green tree." (Q. 36:80). O would that there
were a listener to comprehend it, and that one drop from the vast
ocean of fire, one spark from the storehouse of flames, could be
mentioned. But it is better, after all, that this pearl remain hidden
within the shell of pure longing and stored in the vessels of secrecy,
that every stranger might be excluded and every intimate friend may be
garbed in pilgrim's dress before the Ka`bah of splendor, that he may
enter the sanctuary of beauty. How happy is the soul that consumes
the cage of the body in the flames of the fire of love, and becomes the
familiar of the Spirit, that he may attain unto the exalted mercy of
repose, and that the lofty bounty of glory may be bestowed upon him.
All that of which mention hath been made concerning the ranks
of guidance and the grades of self-purification in the station of Moses-
-may peace be upon Him and our Prophet--hath reference to the
manifestation of these effulgences in the world of outward
appearances. Otherwise, that Exalted One was always and shall
forever be led by the guidance of God. Nay, more, it was from Him
that the sun of guidance dawned and the moon of God's grace
appeared. It was from His essential being that the flames of the divine
Essence were ignited, and from the brilliance of His forehead that the
light of eternity became radiant. He Himself resolved such doubts by
the words He spoke when questioned by Pharaoh about the man He
had killed. He responded, "I did it indeed, and I was one of those who
erred. And I fled from you when I feared you; but My Lord hath given
Me judgment and hath made Me One of the Apostles." (Q. 26:20-21).
The discourse hath come to an end, though in truth this matter is
inexhaustible and unending.
17. My all: That is, "All that which hath descended upon Me of the
stations of eloquent exposition and hidden meanings, and that which it
hath been given to Me to know of the modes of the divine Names and
Attributes, and that which God hath bestowed upon Me in the worlds
of the unseen and the seen--all this I offer up that I might meet Thee
once, and gaze upon Thee a single time."
I beseech Thy forgiveness, O My God, for that which I have
presumed to assert in Thy presence. But, by Thy Might, if I were not
so, I would wish to be so in Thy precincts, for without this nothing can
ever benefit Me, and naught else can grant repose to My heart, even
wert Thou to bestow upon Me all who are in heaven and on earth. I
ask Thee, O My God, by Him Who witnessed in Thy path what none
else hath witnessed, to send down upon Thy Servant the most great
signs of Thy love and the evidences of Thy glorious loving-kindness,
that My soul may be content in that for which it hopeth. Verily, Thou
art powerful over all things.
23. Fuel: Even so, He saith, "the fire, whose fuel is men and stones."
(Q. 2:24). Flames and intense anxiety are also intended.
28. Gloating: Malicious gloaters greater in number than the atoms of
all created things, such as the eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, nor
soul numbered, nor imagination conceived, like unto a downpour. Lo,
it is as rainfall descending from the sky of heedlessness! Say: O people
of the earth, oppose not Him in Whose heart there is naught save the
effulgence of the lights of the celestial morn. Fear ye God and turn not
away, for if ye never love, ye will never hate. Once the love of God
comes to exist, the loss of all else is of no importance. We praise God
theat He hath rendered Us unneedful of their love and mention. And
He is God, Powerful over all things.
31. Cleft: A reference to the verse, "The heavens are wellnigh cleft
asunder from above." (Q. 42:5).
32 Fire: Flame.
34. Stutter: The stammering of the tongue.
40. Wail: With the sense of importuning and lamenting out of love
and grief.
42. Bonfires: A reference to the verse, "Do ye tarry here: I observe a
fire. Perhaps I shall bring you a brand from it." (Q. 20:10 [Regarding
Moses and the burning bush.])
43. My nature: A reference to the verse, "God's original creation,
upon which He patterned mankind's creation." (Q. 30:30). Rite: The
verse, "Set thy face toward the religion, with pure faith." (Q. 30:30).
Palm: "Now clasp they hand to thy side; and it shall come forth white,
but unhurt." (Q. 20:22). Withdrawn: A reference to the verse, "Now
draw they hand close to thy side." (Q. 20:22, 27:12, 28:32).
46. Gaze: "gaze toward the Mount" (Q. 7:143). Swooned: "Moses
fell in a swoon." (Q. 7:143). Destroyed: "And when God manifested
Himself to the mountain, He turned it to dust" (Q. 7:143).
49. B: By the letter B (ba'), existence was manifested and by the Point
the worshipper was distinguished from the object of worship. Refer to
the Tradition, "Everything in the Qur'an is contained in its first chapter
. . ." and so on. Point: The meanings of the Point are innumerable,
unlimited, and inexhaustible. The messianic Countenance, the
universal Word, the divine Form, hath described the Most Great
Throne, which is the place of descent and the seat of the Invisible
Eassence, with this exalted name and lofty appellation. It is reserved
for this very Being. And they Lord is in Himself sufficent for a
Witness.
56. Heart: The inmost heart, the blood of the heart, and the spirit are
all three intended.
63. relate: That which hath been mentioned of tyranny and wrath.
72. Jacob: A reference to the verse, "and his eyes became white with
grief" (Q. 12:82). Joseph: The verse, "I prever the prison to
compliance with their bidding" (Q. 12:33). Job: "Truly evil hath
touched me" (Q. 21:83).
74. Eve: In her separation from Adam for forty days or more, as it is
mentioned in the former traditions.
77. Breaking: "and We caused the earth to break forth with springs"
(Q. 54:11). Broke through: "and their waters met by a settled decree"
(Q. 54:11). Open: A reference to the verse, "so we opened the gates
of heaven" (Q. 54:11). Flow: "With water which fell in torrents" (Q.
54:11).
88. Sharp: "and so thy sight today is piercing" (Q. 50:22).
115. Cause: The world of Cause is intended.
117. This effulgence is meant. It is an effulgence from the luminaries
of the morn of Reality, and from the dawning rays of the sun of
sanctity and splendor. It rose from the sun of Being, the moon of the
Beloved and the Point of the Adored One, and shone forth upon the
realities of all contingent beings and the inmost essences of all
creatures. Then, through droplets from the elixir of divine Being and
pure spray from the inexhaustible Fountain, this effulgence honored
and adorned the very atoms of all existing things, and all those of
which mention hath been made, with everlasting, perpetual life. It thus
invested them with the mantle of imperishability and clothed them in
the vestments of exaltation and the robes of eternity.
But in spite of all this, we have departed from this greatest of
signs and this most great bestowal, and from these inextinguishable
lights and imperishable gifts, nor have we been steadfast in this mighty
handiwork, these perfect honors, this ancient glory, this unending
grace. We have remained shut away from the sanctified breaths of the
Holy Spirit and the fragrant breezes wafting from the glow of
intimacy, to such an extent that were a thousand Davids of Existence
to serenade the dusty bones of mankind with psalmody and songs of
beatitude in fresh and wondrous melodies, these latter would never stir
nor move an iota. For all readiness for the descent of compassion
from the heaven of divine Power hath vanished, and all have been
imprisoned in the cage of the body and dazed by evil passions. They
have swooned with heedlessness in such wise that they shall never
regain consciousness nor reach the station of attainment and nearness,
which is the original goal. What a sign of grief and regret we must
breathe, for we have not been led by the quintessence of Guidance, nor
have we emulated the essence of the Ancient of Days. We have
neither advanced toward the Sinai of His proximity, nor have we
opposed His deniers. We have not patterned ourselves according to
the attractions of His Holy Spirit, nor have we rendered the lights of
His delight our exemplars. The quintessence of emulation is
martyrdom, to which honor we have failed to attain; and it is to clad
oneself in the robe of steadfastness, which we have failed to
accomplish. Aye, we are surrounded by the Lake of His Essence, yet
we seat ourselves and await a drink of water. We dwell in the shade
of the Sun of His Eternity, and call for a Lamp! Such is the case with
this Servant, with mankind, and with everyone in every land.
If even a flame from this Lote-Tree were to blaze forth, we
would not thereby be ignited, but would, rather, arise to extinguish it!
Happy is he who clothes himself in the garb of equity for this battle. If
thou dost acquire this most great attribute, thou wilt most certainly
attain to the most glorious bounty. This is that invisible golden thread
by whose movement all creation is set in motion, and by whose
quiescence all who are in the realms of the Worshipped One are
brought to a standstill. The breast must then be purified and cleansed
from corrupt, groundless and satanic fancies, that the wondrous
countenance of Equity might lift up its head from behind the mountains
of Qaf.
Thereafter shall we experience the everlasting assaults of
rapture and the divine ecstasies of yearning through the ruffling of the
wings of the doves of eternity and the hands of the spirits of splendor.
In the fluttering of love shall we then find rest and repose. This is the
ultimate goal and the least of His stations. We must in every matter
shun all else, which derives from the opposers of the eternal Truth. It
is impermissible for us to sit and socialize even for a moment, for by
God, the corrupt souls are melting away the pure ones, even as the
blaze of dry firewood and cold, white snow. Be not thou among those
whose hearts grow hard at the mention of God, the Creator.
That which hath been mentioned in commentary upon this
verse was as a kindness to the gaze of the opposers and a mercy to the
eyes of the hateful, that they might not understand it according to their
evil passions, nor interpret it thereby. These verses were spoken at the
time when We travelled into exile in the lands of the Ottoman Empire.
No one among the divines and eminent men of that realm made any
protest or objection. But from the railing of this people, I believe that
even after this explanation they will raise objections and by reason of
self-delusion will become wayfarers on the path of vain imagination,
error, idle fancy and blindness. To God is the setting out on the path,
whether thankfully or ungratefully, whether advancing or fleeing away.
When the seal of a perfume bottle is removed, those with a sense of
smell can perceive the scent, whereas those suffering from rheum will
remain deprived. Were all to be stricken with the malady of rheum,
this would not indicate a fault in the rose-water of Eternity, nor would
the musk of Cathay thereby be brought into disrepute.
Praise be to Thee, O God, My God! I call upon Thee at that
time, a time in which Thou didst send down upon Me the evidences of
divine sorrow, which, were they to overflow into the universe, would
cause the seen and the unseen world to pass out of existence, in such
wise that the spirit well-nigh departed in its agitation. By Thy Might,
and Thine invisible Eternality, were I to breathe a word of it, the hearts
would burn in their inmost essences, the heavens and all that is in them
would be cleft asunder and the earth and all that is upon it would be
devastated. Alas, alas, thereby the fragrance of constancy would never
be diffused from the garden of glory, nor would the everlasting breezes
be wafted from the city of splendor. The nightingale of pre-existence
would never warble upon the crimson twigs, nor would the chanticleer
of grandeur raise his voice in the kingdom of exaltation.
By the glory of Him Whom Thou has glorified and made the
Manifestation of Thy Divinity and the Fountainhead of Thy supreme
Power, I have forgotten every mention, and all the wonders of Thy
knowledge, and the comprehensive signs of Thy wisdom which Thou
didst teach Me aforetime. Nay, I was forgetful and oblivious, as
though I were not in the realms of the seen. And by the Lives of `Ali
and Muhammad, and by the pure Spirit, the compassion of the
Merciful, the attraction of Mahmud, the distraction of Ahmad, the
secret of the Beloved, the delight of the Pure One, I like not to remain
in this kingdom even a second. And God was behind Me as My
witness.
O people of the Bayan, and whoso draweth nigh to God and
His verses in the Living One of Utterance: Give ear to that which the
Dove of the divine Essence doth warble in the utmost rapture,
overwhelmed with the love of God and with yearning for Him, having
died to the self and now living in God, the Mighty, the Powerful.
Fear God, and do not differ concerning His cause. Worship
naught else but Him, and wreak not corruption in the land of
knowledge. Accept the counsel proffered ye by this Servant, upon
Whom the darts of the divine decree have rained down from the
crimson cloud, in such wise that none but God can ever estimate their
number, or fully perceive them. O people, be merciful, fear God and
devour not this Servant in the flames of your own selves. Torture Him
not with the idle fancies of your base desires, and do not deliver Him
into the prison of your heedlessness. Do not slay Him with the swords
of your hypocrisy, nor banish Him with the spears of your injustice and
malice. For He hath but summoned ye to God, and shall never call ye
unto anyone save the Manifestations of His Self, the Mirrors of His
inmost Essence, and Him Who standeth in the stead of His Cause
itself.
Say: Fear God, and oppose Him not, nor transgress the
bounds of His counsel. Know yet that there is among ye one who
worketh corruption in this good and blessed land. The malediction of
God be upon him, and whosoever raiseth his hand without the
approval or permission of God, or stirreth in disobedience to Him.
Such a one is deprived of God's compassion. Whosoever taketh his
hands from his pockets and followeth his selfish passions, casting the
Cause of God behind his back, hath removed himself from the shadow
of Providence, though he dwell in the vicinity of the shrine of God.
Whoso submitteth to his base desires and attributeth this to God hath
forfeited the garden of His loving-kindness, and whoso faileth to
detach himself from all who are in the heavens and on earth shall never
be able to enter the kingdom of heaven. For he who hath in his heart
aught else but the love of God shall never step foot in His city. The
vengeance of the Lord be upon whoso teacheth anyone without His
permission, and the awful might of God be upon whoso distributeth
His words to any soul without His leave.
=END=
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 12:43:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Baha'u'llah's "Ode of the Dove," pt. 1
Posted here is a provisional translation of Baha'u'llah's circa 1855 "Ode
of the Dove," written while he was with the Sufi dervishes in Sulaymaniyyah.
This is a revised version slightly different from what I posted last summer.
Part two, to follow, consists in Baha'u'llah's notes, written upon his
return to Baghdad in 1856, some of which are aimed at answering some of
the criticisms the poem had received from partisans of Azal.
Incidentally, there is evidence that at least some Babis decided that
Baha'u'llah was "man yuzhiruhu'llah," He whom God shall make manifest, on
the basis of this poem.
provisional translation by Juan R.I. Cole, Professor, Department of
History, University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109-1045
In praise of the Beloved, secretly, in private.
Ode of the Dove
Baha'u'llah
He is the Exalted, the All-Glorious.
1. I was enthralled by light rays from a face
Whose advent dimmed and darkened every star,
2. As though the sunbeams of Her beauty's glow
appeared and dazzled planets from afar.
3. Her joy diffused the musk of the unseen,
Her stature raised the Spirit up above.
4. The End-Time's Trump resounded when She blew;
Her breath caused shadows of the clouds to move.
5. Her gleam reveals Mount Sinai's deathlessness;
Baha's bright light is kindled when She glows.
6. Then to Her west the sun of splendor dawned,
and to Her east, the moon of moons arose.
7. The mistral's fragrance wafted from Her hair,
and Beauty's eyes were solaced by Her gaze.
8. Her shining face gave Guidance sage advice,
and Moses' soul was cleansed by Her form's blaze.
9. The heart of hearts embraced Her eyelid's dart.
For Her locks' lasso, Being's head was bent.
10. Her footprints constitute My highest aim,
the earth She trod, the most high Throne's advent.
11. To win Her I have wept in every eye;
in exile, I have burned in every fire.
12. I spread myself out so that Her foot might
tread on My heart, and I win My desire.
13. I sought to gain Our union everywhere;
I scrawled letters of nearness on all earth.
14. And if I rush to oneness with Her light,
Then I am cast back, losing closeness' berth.
15. And if I plead for union, hands upraised,
She answers with a sword: "My lovers' prize!"
16. The firmness of our bond was My sole care;
Her goal is our relationship's demise.
17. I said, "To meet, I'd offer Thee My all.
Have mercy, do not publish My disgrace.
18. Since I love Thee too well, then make us one--
That we might for eternity embrace."
19. By revelation's secret! Everything
appeared from Her unveiling. She raised Me!
20. By Husayn's sorrow! Emulating Me,
the world-gyre is weighed down with agony.
21. "Thou art My breast's desire, My soul's sole hope,
My spirit's master and My light, My heart.
22. And after My hard journey, let's unite,
be intimates after My pain apart."
23. My incandescence kindled every fuel,
the Seen world was illumined by My sigh.
24. God's sea was dried up by My thirst, which the
wide stream of glory cannot satisfy.
25. And all the gore that I saw on the earth
bespoke the tears of blood that My eyes shed.
26. The ocean's but a drop before My tear,
The Friend's blaze was, before mine, underfed.
27. For My grief froze the great sea of delight;
the spring of sorrow flowed at My despair
28. My grandeur fainted and My brilliance swooned;
their gloating vanity snuffed out My flare.
29. My bones were whittled down, My body worn;
The fever of My heat burned up My soul.
30. Love for Thee felled Me, passion ground Me down.
To leave Thee melts Me; union is My goal.
31. The secret of My sorrow cleft the sky,
My anguish sundered the earth of the breast.
32. The tears in My eyes spoke of My heart's fire,
My face paled at the sighing of My chest.
33. My critics' gloating makes Me wail all night.
I plead all day since My support is gone.
34. For I have reached dishonor's lowest rung,
so that tongues stutter when they speak thereon.
35. The houris in their castles clothed themselves
in mourning black at My soul's deep despair.
36. I've fallen into anguish in all hearts;
I feel constricted in the open air.
37. Then from behind Me She cried out, "Be still!
and hold Thy tongue from all that it hath told.
38. How many Husayns like Thee wanted Me;
there love Me, just like Thee, `Alis untold.
39. How many intimates I had who were
thy peers--and loves, superior to Thee
40. Who always wail but cannot reach My gaze
one instant, by the light of unity.
41. My dawn makes revelation's sun a star,
My brilliance makes pure light only a glint;
42. My soul's gleam renders Being's secret naught,
Of My love's flames all bonfires only hint.
43. My nature molded the creation's rite;
the White Palm was withdrawn before My hand.
44. The stern injunction came from a clear Cause;
My wisdom's fairness shaped the just Command.
45. The wave within Me stilled the ocean's surf;
the Holy Ghost stirred at My rapture's lights.
46. Immortal Moses swooned before My gaze;
My gleam destroyed the Sinai of all heights.
47. The spread of My Cause quickened all the souls;
old bones were wakened by My spirit's breath.
48. The soul of this Cause circled round its House;
My visage raised that House's soul from death.
49. The B of "speak the secret" swooned before
My Point! The B hides the realm of high lore.
50. All guidance shines forth from My dawning Cause;
the news of My descent, all the heights bore.
51. My bounties lent birdsongs their melody,
from My tune comes the humming of the bee.
52. I rendered Thee a suspect by My Law:
Thou didst another's love quaff, wrongfully.
53. Thou didst bring forth depictions and kinships
and crave names, thus departing from My way.
54. Thou didst describe a self and say it's mine--
the gravest sin, for therein limits lay.
55. Thou didst desire a hopeless union, the
condition for which Thou must satisfy:
56. Thou must drain every cup of fate's ordeals;
thy heart must spew the blood of tyranny.
57. Thou must cut off all hope of comfort's touch;
Thou must renounce every necessity.
58. Thy duty is to shed blood in love's faith;
a love-scorched soul is fealty to Me.
59. Nights spent awake at slanderer's attacks,
a constant stream of insults all the days;
60. In My faith poison's as a healing drink;
in My Path, fate's wrath is a tender grace.
61. Cease claiming to love, or accept all this,
For thus was it ordained in My Law's scroll."
62. In private I called out to Her, "My love,
My ultimate hope and My heart's sole goal!
63. I stand here in the presence of Thy might,
aspiring to all that Thou dost relate.
64. Here I am asking for all Thou dost love,
then here I stand, prepared for thy mandate.
65. My breast yearns for the shafts of thine assault;
My body craves the swords of cruelty.
66. Thy fire's My light, thy harshness is My wish;
My rest is thy wrath, My goal thy decree.
67. Look on the tears of My eyes, how they flow;
gaze on My inmost heart, how it doth fade.
68. Each day the spears of all have struck Me down,
and each night I died by rejection's blade.
69. I read each line of atheism's book;
each second I heard everyone's rude jeers,
70. And faced false charges of idolatry.
Each day I was transfixed by exile's spears--
71. As though fate's woes descended just for Me,
and fury's blades were sharpened for My neck:
72. The grief of Jacob, Joseph's prison cell;
the Friend's white hot flames, and Job's tragic check;
73. And Adam's brooding, Jonah's urgent flight;
the sad lament of David, Noah's cry;
74. Eve's separation, Mary's agony;
Isaiah's trials, Zachariah's sigh.
75. My rain of grief hath sealed the fate of all,
My flood of woes gave rise to all distress.
76. See how I roamed the lands without a friend
save for the beast within the wilderness.
77. At My heart's breaking, springs broke through the earth;
My open eyes caused heaven's eye to flow.
78. My spirit's grief cut short the endless Soul;
the Most High Throne shook at My suffering's glow.
79. Red everywhere was reddened by My blood,
and from My tears there grew up this world's bower.
80. For bitter hurt in thy love's path is sweet;
From any but Thee heaven's mead is sour.
81. And iron's scars can be seen on My neck,
on My legs marks of fetters yet remain;
82. For not a day passed save that I was scorched
by clear prose and the hints verses contain.
83. My spirit disappeared, My heart dissolved;
My soul boiled from the pain of misery.
84. I was left with no spirit, heart or soul;
that I existed at all startled Me.
85. My secret's loftiness convicted Me;
I wish that My creation never rose.
86. For thus have difficulties wiped Me out,
and thus was I encompassed by My woes.
87. Then I ascended and withdrew alone;
I reached the real Encounter in My heart.
88. I saw Thy traits in My eyes' portraiture,
through Thine eye's glance, which is sharp as a dart.
89. If I had limits, they appeared from Thee;
If I had traits then they derived from Thee.
90. Night's darkness was fulfilled when I was roiled;
My joy refined the daylight's clarity.
91. No matter if I am today cast out;
I saw, when sent forth, the exalted light.
92. I knew Jerusalem by the Friend's glow;
I journeyed in Tihran when taking flight.
93. My inner light gave Me faith in the Light;
I rose up, by the spirit, in My soul."
94. I call on thee, life-spirit, to depart;
within Me, no part is left of the whole.
95. Transcendent spirit, climb down from thy throne;
for thee, My stigma is no source of blame.
96. I waken thee, My heart: thou must depart;
thou hast no honor in this realm of shame.
97. My patience: Bear all that which Thou hast seen,
of hardship and of ease in thy Love's way.
98. In spirit, She told Me to persevere:
"I knew of all the proofs Thou dost display.
99. Forget all that Thou hast known and adored;
idolatry, for Me, is unity;
100. For to Me Sinai's brightest glow is naught;
and the sublimest light is gloom to Me.
101. Thy verses' sketch of Me is a child's truth;
For My subjects, thy words of praise are sound.
102. I never ceased to dwell in sanctity,
and My transcendence hath remained unbound.
103. How many just ones, I deemed mere despots;
how many wise ones I saw as untaught;
104. How fleeting were immortals of all kinds;
how many learned never will know aught;
105. How many worshippers have disobeyed;
how many genuflicting have not kneeled!
106. My Being vindicated heaven's psalms;
My scripture hath unveiled scrolls that were sealed.
107. My atom made the cosmic sun revolve,
My drop evoked great praise from Being's sea;
108. The songs of all the creatures were to Me
the buzzing of a tiny ant or bee.
109. All minds turned unto My soul's ecstasy;
all souls were by My spirit's tune revived.
110. My raining Cause made deities divine;
all Lords have by My ample order thrived.
111. The Spirit's realm moved in Me by decree;
I set My foot down on Mount Sinai's throne;
112. At My light the star's radiance blazed forth;
the sun of rapture at My spirit shone.
113. Collected verses, revelation's gleam;
the Traces and Day-Stars of sanctity;
114. Thought's essences and contemplation's gems;
Light-beams' adornments, wisdom's jewelry.
115. The Alpha of My Cause judged everyone;
all wonders came forth from My soul's good will.
116. Thou didst leave Me and reckon thyself near,
and waters of whim in myth's spring didst spill.
117. Thou dost forsake the Unseen's light, in what
Thou wreakest in thyself--and My works lose!
118. Hold fast to the cord of the outward Cause;
to befriend light's concealed face must Thou choose.
119. Rend nearness' veil without a hint! Look on
the sacred Beauty secretly, within.
120. Be silent, for earth's Powers are disturbed.
Forbear! The Unseen's eyes wept a fountain.
121. In Thee is veiled meaning beyond knowledge
that even radiant minds never knew.
122. The holy mystery hides joy and friendship,
which Thou must not divulge if Thou be true.
123. Wert Thou to unmask what Thou didst behold,
the world would in a trice be lost to sight!
124. For thus the throne of glory hath decreed,
and so ordained the mystery of might.
125. They who attain are blessed for they kept faith;
blessed are they who embrace the wondrous Rite;
126. Blessed are the lovers for the blood they shed;
blessed are the ones who with My love unite.
127. Blessed are the sincere, who to the shade of
My Lordliness made haste from every side."
=END=
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 14:05:38 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Penalties, the Quran & the Aqdas
Dear Juan and All,
1. What penalty did Baha'u'llah assign for a man who marries
his step-mother?
2. I would propose that paragraph 107 of the Aqdas can be read
as one dealing with permissible marriage partners since it
is similar to the verse in the Quran (4:26 Rodwell):
"And marry not women whom your fathers have married: this is
a shame, and hateful, and an evil way: - though what is past
may be allowed.
The following verses then go through an exhaustive list of
blood-relations and others that a man can not marry.
The Aqdas states (paragraph 107):
"It is forbidden you to wed your fathers' wives. We shrink, for
very shame, from treating of the subject of boys."
How do the Arabic verses of the Qur'an and Aqdas compare - what
term is used for "shame"?
regards,
sAmAn
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 22:04:09 +0100 (MET)
Subject: homosexual marriage
To: talisman@indiana.edu
for your information:
Antwerp has today given official recognition to a marriage
contract between two men, the first time this has been done in
Belgium. As in Holland, the recording and recognition of
marriages is done at city hall, not by the central government. The
television showed pictures of the wedding, including interviews
with happy mothers (-in-law).
Daniel Orey: thank you for your model letter. I have kept it for
the event that I ever serve on a Local Spiritual Assembly seeking
a way to welcome homosexual friends. Spread it around the
local assemblies - progress on this issue will flow from bottom
up I think.
Sen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-216854
Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
and the individuality of each,
thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 22:04:53 +0100 (MET)
Subject: intellectuals
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Stephen, you said
>intellectuals ... have usually managed to give an image of
>overweening self-esteem
I would have to argue with the 'usually', in as much as I have
never encountered this in my 20-something years in the Baha'i
community. I mean, one often runs into people who over-rate
their own importance, but in my experience this is usually a by-
product of limited horizons (I'm a very big fish in this little
pond, which is all the world there is). I've never encountered
anyone of learning and intellectual capacity with such an attitude.
Tough for you if you have, but 'usually'?? come now
On the other hand, the "tendency to talk all the time
while not listening to what anybody else is saying" I HAVE
encountered: among intellectuals, plumbers, administrators,
academics, kitchen hands, drunkards and fundamentalist
preachers, to name just a few. Hardly fair on the intellectuals to
specialize them for your attention in this respect.
You say "the intellectual, like a plumber, is just one
element of the community and commands no special privileges."
Well, no, and yet yes. First the 'no'. Baha'u'llah says:
Respect ye the divines and learned amongst you, they
whose conduct accords with their professions, ... Know
ye that they are the lamps of guidance unto them that are
in the heavens and on the earth. They who disregard and
neglect the divines and learned that live amongst them -
these have truly changed the favor with which God hath
favored them. (Gleanings, page 128)
There is also an extended pangyric to the divines and learned in
Secret of Divine Civilization, from around p32 to 75 or so,
beginning:
Those eminent divines and men of learning .... these are
alert to the present need and they understand the
requirements of modern times, and certainly devote all
their energies toward encouraging the advancement of
learning and civilization. "Are they equal, those who
know, and those who do not know?... Or is the darkness
equal with the light?"
and `Abdu'l-Baha quotes 'An authoritative Tradition' as saying
"As for him who is one of the learned:... It is then the duty of
the people to pattern themselves after him." The next 40 pages or
so are an exegsis of what is meant by the (spiritually) learned
and what is required of them. One section of this I have posted
before says:
The state is, moreover, based upon two potent forces, the
legislative and the executive. The focal center of the
executive power is the government, while that of the
legislative is the learned --and if this latter great support
and pillar should prove defective, how is it conceivable
that the state should stand? (p 37)
So on the one hand Baha'u'llah says we should respect and
honour the divines and learned among us (presumably, in the
Baha'i community??), and puts it in very strong terms:
"They who disregard and neglect the divines and learned
that live amongst them - these have truly changed the
favor with which God hath favored them."
- which I understand as meaning that neglect of the learned is
(metaphorically?) similar to changing the text of the revelation, a
very serious matter indeed. And on the other hand `Abdu'l-Baha
says that the learned should have a (constitutional? - other texts
indicate this) role at the centre of the civil government, in the
legislative, and also that the weakness of this pillar weakens the
state. It is not too large an inductive leap to say that the
weakness and neglect of the learned and divines in the Baha'i
community (and perhaps also the lack of a proper institutional
form for their contribution) must lead to the weakness of the
'legislature', ie elected arm, of the Baha'i community. I hope that
the building of the centre for the study of the sacred texts on the
arc may be a sign of the development of this defective organ of
the community: perhaps if the divines and learned are seen
functioning in Haifa alongside the Universal House of Justice and
the Internation Teaching Centre (the other kind of 'learned'),
Baha'i communities will take this as a model for a more positive
attitude towards their intellectuals, and for an institutional role
for them in the community.
In short, while as you say "the intellectual, like a plumber,
is just one element of the community and COMMANDS no
special privileges," - which is quite true since commanding and
demanding things is not in the nature of intellectuals, at least in
my experience - nevertheless it is clear from the above that the
Baha'i community, or state, which does not ACCORD its
intellectuals a special place is going to be deficient.
And now for the 'yes':
Using the organic metaphor of the community, the contribution
of the learned and divines amongst us might be likened to iron in
the body: if you don't have it (for haemogloben etc.) you will be
ennervated. But if you don't have vitamin C you get scurvey,
lack of calcium and you get ricketts, and so forth. Which is most
important? Silly question, because lack of any one causes similar
disabilities. Alongside the citations above about the role of the
learned, you could put other citations about the vital importance
and role of kings and rulers, farmers, teachers of the faith,
mothers and fathers, youth, the eloquent, the teachers-by-
example, the humble, people of importance, people of no
importance, indigenous people, people who leave their
homelands, and the long and the short and the tall. A society that
neglects its farmers is in big trouble in the long run. A Baha'i
community that thinks that urban society and values are all that
exists is going to be out of touch with the enduring substratum of
the culture in which it lives. So the intellectuals (and the
farmers) can be seen as 'just one element', but it must be
understood that they are not optional or interchangeable elements.
Sen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-216854
Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
and the individuality of each,
thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 13:50:00 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Demilterization and the Lesser Peace,
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismanians
I noticed the thread on Economics and Military spending have
now become linked to the Lesser Peace . A point of clarification
is needed regarding the Lesser Peace . Whilst I personally would
wish to see nothing more than the start of the Lesser Peace by the
turn of the Century , begin with the demilitarization of the
Planet . There is nothing in the Writings to directly support
that . It does appear more correctly that the beginning of the
Lesser Peace is the start of the process that will lead humanity
into a complete state of Peace. Not the moment when all weapons
are discarded . In fact one of the primary roles the Baha'i
community has during the Lesser Peace according to the
Guardian is to breath life in mankind .
The Economic dependence of the West on military production to
fuel their economies is a definite barrier to a true state of World
Peace. The irony of the belief that a Country's economy can be
dramatically improved by a 'good' war is fairly common place .
Of course nobody bothers to mention the increase in the National
Debt to pay for such an obscenity . There are countries whose
tax-payers are still paying for wars their grand-parents were
forced to fight and die in . Third World countries are paying
through their leaders and revolutionaries armament purchases
for the continuation of OECD countries's standard of living .
Some third world nations are spending more than 80% of their
GNP on armaments . While the citizens of those countries are
often denied food , education , health-care and other basic
amenities of life . The real problem is how to change from a
military spending sustained economy to a peace spending
economy. Another matter for Baha'i economists to ponder on .
There is nothing in the Writings to support in any form the type of
National Military superstructure we now see . In fact in one of
the tablets Baha'u'llah wrote to the Shah ; He outlined the size
and type of forces, needed to secure a country and provide a
peaceful environment . Working on that formula I do not know
of any country that is operating a defense force rather an
aggressive force. I do think Baha'ms need to look at the type of
occupations they are involved in , we should not really be supporting
the statusquo by being in the Defence Industry business in my personal
view . We should be pro-active in getting governments around the
planet to see the waste and terror that war brings . We should not
imagine that a killing bullet from the USA is any better or worse than
a bullet from another ountry . Both are contrary to the Will of God .
However I believe those who manufacturer and trade in such weapons are
equally guilty as those who wage war . One might even think it is
more blameworthy than less to be involved in such a trade . Our
Western Economy is founded in part on the sufferings of
peoples . I do not find that honor or self-respect to be party to
such a continuation . I noticed one post that was concerned if the
Military machine was shut down what happens to those
employed . What happens now when an occupation or business is
past its time : it closes down . The people employed have to find
other means of employment and ways to make their lives meaningful. I
do believe that occupational displaced people should not be made
to suffer the brunt of such a realignment of society but that is an
entirely different subject.
I have been surprised in recent years by the number of young
Baha'is from Baha'i families joining the armed forces . That
seems to be a growing problem and one that certainly needs
addressing .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
From: coleman@olimp.irb.hr
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 23:37:18 MET-DST
To: TALISMAN@indiana.edu
Subject: Subscribing Request
May we subscribe to Talisman>? We are the Cra (Croatian) Coleman family of
pioneers.
Warm Baha'i Regards,
Dr. John "Jack" Coleman and Family of Six in Croatia
=END=
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 96 20:03:53 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: infallible intellectuals
To: talisman@indiana.edu
No, I didn't mean that, Steve. I am just replying to two messages that deal
with these words.
Yes, of course, intellectuals can be as arrogant and close minded as any group
of people I have ever met. Pedantic and tedious are other words that come
immediately to mind. The stakes are so low in academia that people have to
make a very big deal about everything to make themselves feel important.
However, that doesn't seem to have much to do with the problems that we are
addressing here. We really are talking more about translations and original
works than about personalities. The academics (intellictuals doing academic
work) are not putting themselves forward in leadership roles. They really
aren't asking for public recognition. As far as I can see, all they are asking
for is to be able to publish what they write. When you consider some of the
drivel that has been published in the Baha'i community, is this so much to ask?
It is not so much that anyone is asking to be able to raise his voice any
louder than anyone else's. It is a matter of being able to raise one's voice
at all without being slapped down.
Now, Tim, about this matter of the Catholic Church and infallibility. A devout
Catholic would (probably) tell you that the Pope is infallible. If that is how
Catholics view the Pope, that is what is important. If you told a a non-Baha'i
(excuse me, a Baha'inot - will that do?) that the UHJ is infallible, they would
look at you a bit peculiarly and smirk. That would not keep you from believing
in the infallibility of the UHJ. Your doubts about the Pope won't prevent a
Catholic from believing either.
My point is that the Baha'i Faith and the Catholic Church are working on a
similar model and because of this they make for interesting comparisons.
One other comment. Sonja is correct that homosexuals are in a bind no matter
what. If this is a "hardware" issue, then they can be seen as "defective."
Certainly there will be those who feel that it is something that would need to
be cured or prevented - like Down's Syndrom, for example. If it is a
"software" issue, then it is something that the homosexual is able to control
and change in himself. However, I don't think that these considerations should
affect the way homosexuality is studied, just as I don't think that one should
study male/female differences with an agenda to either prove that they are
inherent or socially conditioned. If we truly want to seek truth, then putting
all prejudices aside (to the best of our ability) is necessary. Why bother to
do research at all if all we want to do is "prove" our beliefs. We might as
well just sit in our arm chairs and expound on them.
Whatever the cause of homosexuality, it does seem to be a reality. I believe
that someone recently suggested that the goal of a homosexual should be to live
a life as a "normal" heterosexual. I personally would consider it a nightmare
to find out that I was married to a homosexual. I might enjoy having
homosexual males for friends but I certainly don't want one with such
inclinations for a husband. I can't imagine any woman who would. I also feel
that it is unfair to condemn a person to a life of celibacy. Furthermore,
celibacy is not promoted at all in the Baha'i Faith. Why can't we find some
way around this dilemma that does not promote a promiscuous style of life but
also recognizes that human variation, including variation in sexual
orientation, is part of life? Sorry if I am rambling. I have had a very long
day. Linda
=END=
[end of 1/20/96 session]
Talisman emails received 1/21/96
---------------------------------------------------------
From: Geocitizen@aol.com
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 22:40:56 -0500
To: DAWNLIQU@fllab.chass.ncsu.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Abdu'l Baha in America
Esteemed Quanta,
You are clearly against Jim Harrison's use of terms one could see as negative
or as indicating contempt for others, saying:
>I am having great difficulty in reconciling my responses to these
>very different messages. Has Abdu'l'Baha used these labels
>while he was in U.S. and Europe or anywhere else?
Actually, 'Abdu'l-Baha used very strong terms to describe people who had
grievously transgressed against the purpose of human life on this planet. In
His travels in Europe and America he was an outspoken and revolutionary
critic of tyrants, racists, and materialists. I clearly remember reading one
talk in which he referred to materialist philosophers as followers of "the
philosophy of the cow" -- a label I am sure few of them would have found
flattering.
>How can we even
>think of such phrases? How can we work together while carrying
>such attitudes towards another human being? I am at a loss.
>Is it possible to have a trusting and loving relationship with each
>other when we see postings such as?
Somehow I think you must have gotten a vastly different message from the
terms Jim has used than the message I have received.
Some of the terms you list he did not even use in reference to persons, but
rather to ideas. One vigorously attacks faulty ideas *because* one loves
humanity, not out of a lack of love for one's fellow human beings.
Most of the other terms Jim used to speak of attitudes that others hold
toward certain people, (for example, the outside world's view of the Baha'is,
or the Baha'i community's view of intellectuals) not of his own attitudes
toward anyone. In fact, in most of these cases he was disagreeing with the
negative characterizations and proposing ways for us to overcome them.
In short, I see no evidence that Jim is as filled with hate and contempt as
you seem to be lamenting. There may be ways in which Jim needs to modify his
method of getting points across, but isn't that true of all of us? The
station of 'Abdu'l-Baha is one we all need to strive toward, not one that any
of us have attained.
Let us assist one another in continually improving our levels of attainment.
Regards,
Kevin Haines
=END=
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 00:10:39 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: Saman Ahmadi
Cc: talisman
Subject: Re: Penalties, the Quran & the Aqdas
Saman:
I don't think we can necessarily conclude that Baha'u'llah is forbidding
certain kinds of marriage, since the entire idea of same-sex marriage did
not exist in the 19th century Middle East; what Baha'u'llah is doing,
however, is forbidding certain kinds of sexual union. And
what he specifically mentions is the practice of taking a catamite/slave.
Moreover, the word he uses, "nastah.y" is simply not very strong in
Arabic. It is used the way we use "to be embarrassed." There are *much*
stronger words for what we call "shame" in English.
I continue to question your identification of the condemnation of
taking catamites (slave-boys) in the Aqdas with contemporary same-sex
marriage. However, even if one were to conclude that the Baha'i writings
are negative toward all forms of homosociality, this does not *necessitate*
that they be formally punished; they could fall under the category of
the *makru:h* or disliked rather than the *h.ara:m* or
forbidden-with-sanctions. While it is true that Baha'i institutions are
authorized to legislate specific sanctions for acts that Baha'u'llah
condemned, they are not *compelled* to do so. In fact, many Baha'i unwed
mothers have kept their administrative rights. There seems to be a double
standard here.
The Qur'an verse to which you refer, with regard to the pre-Islamic
custom of marrying one's father's wives on his death, calls this practice
"fa:h.ishah", which means vile and disgusting behavior; "shameful" is a
loose translation.
Cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
On Sat, 20 Jan 1996, Saman Ahmadi wrote:
>
> Dear Juan and All,
>
> 1. What penalty did Baha'u'llah assign for a man who marries
> his step-mother?
>
> 2. I would propose that paragraph 107 of the Aqdas can be read
> as one dealing with permissible marriage partners since it
> is similar to the verse in the Quran (4:26 Rodwell):
>
> "And marry not women whom your fathers have married: this is
> a shame, and hateful, and an evil way: - though what is past
> may be allowed.
>
> The following verses then go through an exhaustive list of
> blood-relations and others that a man can not marry.
>
> The Aqdas states (paragraph 107):
>
> "It is forbidden you to wed your fathers' wives. We shrink, for
> very shame, from treating of the subject of boys."
>
> How do the Arabic verses of the Qur'an and Aqdas compare - what
> term is used for "shame"?
>
> regards,
> sAmAn
>
=END=
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 96 08:18:29+030
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: military de-mobilization
Dear Derek:
" What happens now when an occupation or business is
past its time : it closes down . The people employed have to find
other means of employment and ways to make their lives meaningful. I
do believe that occupational displaced people should not be made
to suffer the brunt of such a realignment of society but that is an
entirely different subject."
This was the question I was trying to address...not that
demobilization should not happen, but how, how fast, what are the mechanics
of demobilization and re-introducing those employed in military activities
(even the making of the war machinery) into peace time production and
employment. To just "stop" would create such a financial burden on society
that economies would collapse. There needs to be redirection,
restructuring, re-absorbing of that work force into productive economic
activities, and re-education. Since it is not likely that demilitarization
is going to happen immediately, then we have time to start working for the
process to start NOW, in whatever ways we can.
As for youth from Baha'i families entering into the military, I have
also noticed this. Is this a left over from TV glamourization of the
military? Is this a rebellion against what youth see as their parents
thing? Is this a need to enter into a community which is so structured that
decisions are made for them? Is it a way to gain a "free" education and see
the world? I don't know...good question, and one worth pursuing.
Love,
Bev.
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 00:10:25 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Timothy A. Nolan"
To: jrcole@umich.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Standards
I want to leap at this chance to AGREE with Juan.
j> At what point does adherence to the letter of the law actually betray
j> the spirit of the law?
Thank you for raising this matter for thought. It is an important
subject.
j>It is therefore my own personal view that an LSA in Holland
j> especially (but also elsewhere) would be justified in leaving alone
j> Baha'i gays who were not being promiscuous or adulterous or
j>bringing scandal on the community.
I agree. Juan, thank you for saying this.
Tim Nolan
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 96 06:26:06 PST
Subject: RE: about homosexuality
To: talisman@indiana.edu, Alison & Steve Marshall
On Sat, 20 Jan 96 16:55 GMT+1300 Alison & Steve Marshall wrote:
>It struck me to ask: Is homosexuality in the "hardware" or
"software" (to
>use Juan's terminology)?
The metaphor gets frail in this area. First, some software can be
pretty fundamental, like ... operating systems... as opposed to
display fonts.
In biology, a lot of hard ware isn't all that hard and a lot of
software isn't all that soft.
Technically, I'd guess that hardware is what can be inherited.
Acquired characteristics cannot be inherited. But options to acquire
characteristics (an example would be what's called "talent.") can be.
>It gets tricky... is it really in the interests of gay people to
argue that
>homosexuality is natural/innate? This would open them up to the
arguments
>that Juan fears could be made using sociobiology; for example, that
women
>are genetically inferior, as are blacks and so on. People could
argue that
>homosexuals are born naturally inferior. As Juan points put, this is
a good
>reason for not putting our drives into the hardware department, and
I agree
>with him that much of us is software.
>
>So it seems that for gay people there are is a minus either way, be
it
>software or hardware. If it's software, then its culturally
determined and
>therefore able to be changed.
>
All good points
I wonder if the "hardware" argument is forced by the social
oppression. YOu can't oppress someone for hardware and everything
else is as "choice."
I get very cranky about this business of so many things being
"choice." I hear it often used by do-gooders to oppress.
That's the whole argument of AA: It's not a choice, it's a disease.
In some situations, that's an improvement in that it's an escape from
moral condemnation.
The trouble I have with the Baha'i position is that it comes out like
a moral condemnation.
I have no idea about the deep reality of the position. I just know
that it is a written and I'm glad that I don't have to wrestle with
it at this time. My heart breaks for our gay friends. I have no idea
what I would do in their position. There are demands in the faith
that infuriate me and yet I grudgingly acknowledge them. I don't know
what the parellel process might be if I were gay.
>Just a note about Baha'i law - stating the obvious I guess. I
understand
>that there is a leap in idea from boys to same-sex consenting
adults.
>However, as I understand it, the House's sphere of infallibility is
>legislation and therefore it can legitimately make that leap, and,
if it
>chooses to, make homosexuality between consenting males or females
against
>Baha'i law. Has it actually done this? It strikes me that this issue
is a
>perfect example of one that has not been covered in the Book.
>
>Whatever the House legislates, though, I think there is no excuse
for
>prejudice, or making it impossible for people to have their place in
the
>community. I think if you make it impossible for someone to have a
place in
>the Baha'i community, you are telling them that the One who loves
them more
>than anyone, has no place for them. That's a contradiction that's
sure to
>play havoc with your mind.
>
>
>Alison
>
>--------------------------------------------------------------
> Alison and Steve Marshall
> Email: forumbahai@es.co.nz
> 90 Blacks Road, Opoho, Dunedin/Otepoti, Aotearoa/New Zealand
>--------------------------------------------------------------
>
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/20/96
Time: 06:26:06
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A. Einstein
=END=
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 22:38:56 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Homosexuality
This was on another list, and because of it's content, I asked permission to
post it here....
So, I want to share this with you...
Margreet
>
>My, my, my, a topic I've never seen on the list before!
>
>I really do not understand the fascination with this, but as this is the
>millionth time I've seen this subject in the last two months, I've been
>sucked in to make a comment (then I'll go back to deleting all the
>homosexual subject headings).
>
>Nancy's recent comment: >I have heard many Baha'is say that the Faith doesn't
>>reject the homosexual act itself
>
>seems to focus on the very thing that is rejected. My understanding of the
>writings would reject the homosexual act as immoral, but accepts feelings
>of love toward each other; how often the writings enjoin us to be enamored
>of each other. It is not the feelings of love that is being questioned,
>but how those feelings are expressed that need attention.
>
>Another aspect of homosexuality that seems compatible with the Faith is the
>deconstruction of gender roles that is embodied in homosexual ideology as
>it is played out in literary studies and political paradigms. But, I would
>argue that this type of deconstruction can be practised and entertained
>outside the immorality of homosexuality.
>
>
>My final comment is: is there a problem in the Baha'i community with
>reading comprehension? Recently there was a letter from The Universal
>House of Justice, the administrative body that is the source of all good
>and freed from all evil, whose word is the final word. In this letter I
>read the following which is an excerpt from the Guardian, our infallible
>interpretor of the writings-- his word is the final word. He wrote:
>"No matter how devoted and fine the love may be between people of the same
>sex [I interject here, this is a substantiation of my comment above], to
>let it find expression in sexual acts is wrong [get it everybody, it's
>wrong, which in my book means it is not to be done and not to be condoned].
>To say that is ideal [this is in reference to historian who posted recently
>about Greece and Persia] is no excuse..." p11 American Baha'i 23 Nov.
>
>There shouldn't be any questions, it is wrong, and even if it is an ideal
>love, it is still wrong to practice homosexual acts. However! there is
>nothing wrong with the devotion and love between people of the same sex.
>
>Ok, could we please move on to some more constructive discussion-- I'm
>afraid the bones are powder on this old dead horse and are fit only to be
>eaten by those honored martyrs from the _DawnBreakers_.
>
>jeffw-- z3jef@ttacs.ttu.edu
>
=END=
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 23:10:31 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Steven Scholl
Hello all Talis's... just wanted you to know that Steven says Hello... He is
currently in Seattle, he spoke at a Bookstore downtown Seattle earlier this
evening, and then later at gave a Bahai Fireside at the New Seattle
Teaching Center.... So, .. TT FN.. oh, I did purchase what he edited...
Common Era. may take me a year of Tuesdays to understand it...
Oh, and Derek... He did put in a plug for Bosch Baha'i School Mystical
Conference...
*wish I had a scholarship.... I wish, I wish, I wish.. tap my heels three
times... click click, click... rub my lucky's rabbit foot,*****
lol lol Margreet
=END=
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 01:04:21 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Re: Penalties, the Quran & the Aqdas
Dear Juan and All,
1. On penalties: I am not advocating that Baha'i homosexuals
who are discrete be punished - you made the argument that
since Baha'u'llah does not specify a fine for taking a
slave boy, doing so is a lesser offense than something
which is explicitly forbidden. Baha'u'llah explicitly forbids one
to marry his step-mother and yet assigns no penalty - where
does this type of law, forbidden but without penalty, fall?
2. Same-sex marriage: I don't see how same-sex marriage can
fall within the framework of a Baha'i marriage; the only
way to sanction it is to suspend certain aspects which, I
feel, would be contradictory to the spirit of teachings.
But, for the sake of argument, I would like to see the
logic behind the suggestion - something along the lines
of presenting the teachings of the Faith regarding marriage
and examining whether gender can be taken out of the picture.
3. Baha'u'llah use of the term "boys": it seems that
the taking of a slave boy was the only commonly accepted
homosexual relationship of the culture of that time. As I
see it Baha'u'llah used the only term that was available to
him (where there any others?).
I also see Shoghi Effendi's extrapolation of the verse
to cover all homosexual relations as analagous to
Abdul Baha's action with regard to Baha'u'llah's apparent
allowance of taking two wives - a juridical ruling as
the Head of the Faith.
4. The argument is made that science and the nature of
homosexual relationships have changed since the time
of Shoghi Effendi.
Science: even though the science is not conclusive, it is my
own feeling that homosexuality is, like other characteristics,
an inherent part of a person. However people, with varying
degrees of success based on each individual, can either
nurture or repress their characteristics. One role
of religion is to outline which characteristics are good
and which are not.
Changed nature of homosexual relationships: what were the
questions to which Shoghi Effendi responded? Did they
propose promiscuous behavior?
regards,
sAmAn
=END=
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Standards
>
>j>It is therefore my own personal view that an LSA in Holland
>j> especially (but also elsewhere) would be justified in leaving alone
>j> Baha'i gays who were not being promiscuous or adulterous or
>j>bringing scandal on the community.
>
There is, I believe, precedence for this in the UHJ's and Guardian's
instructions regarding certain "non-sanctioned" sorta-marital arrangements
in South America...while these are in regard to male/female, it may be the
same theory in operation. Lets ask our friends in Holland, shall we? Hey!
Holland! Ya there? What's the story?
Burl
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 10:20:03 +0100
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: Loni.BramsonLerche@ping.be (Loni Bramson-Lerche)
Subject: Baha'i women's lists
Could someone please send me the addresses of the
e-mail lists for Baha'i women? Thank you.
Loni Bramson-Lerche
=END=
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 96 09:13:03 UT
From: "Hannah E. Reinstein"
To: talisman@indiana.edu, "Dan Orey"
Cc: SBirkland@aol.com, Kkonline@aol.com
Subject: RE: legitimacy smitamacy
Dear Dan,
After I read your letter I cried for a long time. I was unable to write
anything and just signed off and sat in a semi-darkened room. I sat on the rug
and huddled in a corner holding my hands around my knees with my head down.
All I could feel was despair and loneliness. As I've stated in a recent post,
I'm not gay but it doesn't really matter. My own situation is even harder for
most people to comprehend and seems to threaten them even more.
Last night I watched the 20/20 show on television. They had a feature on
transgendered police and firefighters. It was deeply upsetting although I was
already aware of the information. They showed how the rapes and murders of
transgendered persons are not even investigated by the police due to their
extreme prejudice. They showed the derision that transgendered people face
from mob mentality and from their co-workers. How many of you would subject
yourselves to such treatment? How many of you can imagine how it feels to be
looked at with contempt and disgust? Or to hide your secret and keep silent
about your fundamental nature for years? To know that discovery could ruin
your life and cause you to lose your job, your family, or even your life? This
is why I empathize with our gay sisters and brothers. I know what they feel
like now.
If you knew someone in that plight would you lecture them about their life or
would you hold out the hand of friendship and deep compassion? Wouldn't you
say to them: "You are welcome here. We hate no person. We will not contribute
to your further suffering. We do not alienate anyone in or out of our
community. We do not shun those whom we do not or cannot understand. We have
answers and inspiration and hope for =all= people. We do not judge any soul
for that is left to their own heart and to the Creator of all. You are welcome
here with all our love, dear soul."
I don't know what causes homosexuality. Frankly, I suspect that it's really
not going to change anyone's attitude to find out. Personally I think it's
firmware and neither hardware nor software. Computer professionals on this
list will understand the metaphor. I suggest that it is a greater test for the
Baha'i community than it is for the individual soul who may be gay. Finally, I
believe that each and every fundamentalist-type post is felt as a rejection, a
rebuke, and a stab in the heart of a human soul. I can only say this in the
Talisman forum where it is safe to speak my mind. No one wishes to dispute the
wisdom of the Universal House of Justice. That is not even an issue nor should
it be. I do not know any Baha'is that argue against the principle of chastity
either. What I do know is that we are only responsible for our own souls'
behavior and not that of any other person. It's unseemly to lecture people
about their private lives and to alienate them. We teach in prisons. We teach
in insane asylums. We teach in the streets. We teach in drug and alcohol rehab
centers. We accept all the believers that we find in those places. We help
them to deepen and gain their own understanding according to their own
capacities. Are gay persons -- who number in the millions -- to be treated
differently?
Lovingly,
The Artist Formerly Known As Cary
----------
From: owner-talisman@indiana.edu on behalf of Dan Orey
Sent: Friday, 19 January, 1996 4:16 AM
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: SBirkland@aol.com; Kkonline@aol.com
Subject: legitimacy smitamacy
Subject: Time: 8:01 PM
OFFICE MEMO legitimacy smitamacy Date: 1/19/96
Dear Friends,
I have been gone for a few days and have returned as most dedicated
talispersons do, to find my computer full of at least four hundred messages. I
have read with some interest the passages by a few folks who are sharing their
thoughts with us about those with a homosexual orientation. I am still amazed
that anyone who is heterosexual would find my gay and lesbian brothers and
sisters something of alarm, indeed of harm to the Faith. It still remains
unclear to me as to what exactly we have, or are, that makes folks so
uncomfortable ...
Many authors of the recent posts on this subject seem to feel a need to make
what few gays and lesbians still remain in the Faith as unwelcome as possible
by either holding up an impossible standard for us to live by, and then
suggesting that we will be punished if we do not abide by it, or by offering a
continued stream of platitudes that most of us find insulting, if not
condescending in the extreme. This does nothing other than give the outer
world
the impression that once again, the Baha'is are self righteous bigots who,
though morally "straight" in the demeanor have hearts of pure lead.
In the light of Continental Counselor Stephen Birkland's advice to us I wish
to
offer another solution for our consideration, one that I think is quite
viable.
I humbly submit this to Talisman in hopes that it may generate some thoughts.
It is modeled after any number of the more moderate Christian church's in my
area (and one in Dallas, Texas... 2nd Baptist Church). It goes like this,
To our loving gay and Lesbian friends, seekers, and believers, and their
families,
As followers of a spiritual path that works for justice, for love and for
tolerance, and for the eradication of all forms of prejudice, we can only hope
to understand the dilemma that you must face. We understand how the pain and
trouble that you experience by the homophobia in society and by that of our
own
spiritual brothers and sisters is a true test for you. Despite all of our
human
frailties, we want to make you feel loved and welcomed by us. We understand
that there exists a large discrepancy between sexual orientation and what you
find in the Baha'i sacred writings. That is something for you, and you only,
to
deal with. You have a great gift from God, and any number of qualities that we
cherish, and indeed this religious community could use. So, please enter, and
join us in building a loving, tolerant community for all people!
Just some thoughts, from someone who is hanging on by his fingernails, and
feeling that there is someone stomping on them from above. Someday I hope that
folks will understand how very sad this is for the few of us who remain in the
Faith that we love so very much. - Daniel
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Your email message of 7
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 07:20:51 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Talismanians -
Here is a response I just received after forwarding the message to
the World Centre from "nobody."
Mark (Foster)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Transmitted by email
TO: Dr. Mark A. Foster DATE: 17 January 1996
Email address: mfoster@tyrell.net
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
MESSAGE:
Your email of 7 January 1996, in which you forward an email you recently
received from an anonymous sender, has been received at the Baha'i World
Centre and its contents noted. The source of the email is John Carre, a
Convenant-breaker of long-standing. The Universal House of Justice appre-
ciates the concern which prompted you to bring this matter to its attention.
Department of the Secretariat
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 96 00:56:05 PST
Subject: RE: some thoughts
To: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu, talisman@indiana.edu, tan1@cornell.edu
On Sun, 21 Jan 1996 00:30:40 -0400 (EDT) Timothy A. Nolan wrote:
>The Baha'i Faith shares some principles with the Catholic Church
(e.g.
>the ideal of chastity, belief in the virgin birth of Jesus
Dear Talismanians,
Is this true? Is the belief in the virgin birth of Jesus Christ as
essential a part of the Bahai Faith as the command of chastity?
This is a very important question.
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/21/96
Time: 00:56:05
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 96 08:10:59 PST
Subject: Forgiveness and cut-offs
To: talisman@indiana.edu
More on this business of forgiveness.
The thing I hear over and over from those who forgive is that they
make some decision about the limited capacity of those who have hurt
them. The archetypal example was Jesus: "Forgive them, Father, for
they know not what they do. "
Another component of forgiveness is the continued relationship is not
denied.
A relationship denied is what's called in family therapy, a
"cut-off."
A "cut-off" relationship lives in its full intensity but people
pretend that there is no relationship any more.
Examples:
1) Cousin Marvin marries a non-jewish woman. Grandmother, following
the rabbi's directions, starts saying the prayers for the dead for
Marvin and he is never seen again at family gatherings, or referred
to.
2)Divorced Spouse Albert moves to another city and never sees
Elizabeth again. He sends child support sporatically. After many
years, she says he is irrelevant to her.
Cut-offs happen when there is no forgiveness, would be one theory.
Another is that cut-offs are substitutes for forgiveness.
It is a relevant question on a number of levels.
One is that, in the name of Unity, the Baha'i Faith seems to
ex-communicate people.
Is ex-communication an acceptable strategy in private life?
That's a start.
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/21/96
Time: 08:10:59
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
Reply-To: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com
To: burlb@bmi.net
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Happy news, questions on teaching etc
> You don't "teach 'em & leave 'em" --
> in the spiritual realms there are no "one night stands"
Getting caught up.
In Ruth Moffett's pilgrim notes is something interesting on this subject. As
some of you know, for many years Ruth was a frequent and popular travel
teacher. On her pilgrimages, Shoghi Effendi thanked her many times for her
travels and public talks on behalf of the Faith, but he *praised* her for
maintaining contact with individuals she met on her travels and nursing them
to active Baha'i membership. Her correspondance was so heavy that she had a
full time live-in helper to manage it all.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: jrcole@UMICH.EDU
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Penalties, the Quran & the Aqdas
Date: 21 Jan 1996 07:37:42 GMT
> In fact, many Baha'i unwed
> mothers have kept their administrative rights. There seems to be a double
> standard here.
Perhaps, but a person can not have their administrative rights removed, in
general, for a single violation of Baha'i law, or for a violation that in not
contemporary. They must be given an opportunity to change their behavior
prior the the imposition of sanctions. One of the few exceptions to the rule
that I am familiar with is violation of marriage laws.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 96 19:07:43+030
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: forgiveness, cut-off
Dear Phillip:
Intriguing question! What about Baha'is who cut-off the community after
some upset? Is this a form of forgivenss, or what? What are the
implications of cut off dynamics? Could we run a few senerios and see what
it looks like?
Love,
Bev.
=END=
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 11:15:21 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Legislation and the House
Alison is quite right: the definition of homosexuality and its legitimacy
is exactly the sort of thing that the House of Justice was created to
legislate on. In Islam and especially Shiism this sort of thing was a
matter of interpretation done of individuals with special trainign--the
mujtahids. They would take imperfect analogies and try to use them to
settle new questions of law. This process led to (a) a lot of legal
hairsplitting and (b) many disagreements. For homosexuality, we have as
evidence
1) a statement by Baha'u'llah that certainly prohibits pederasty
but is on the face of it ambiguous beyond that;
2) a statement of Shoghi Effendi, specifically referring to dated
medical theory, identifying homosexual behavior as a moral offence that
can be cured medically; and
3) current medical theory, social conditions, and moral concensus
pointing towards the view that homosexuality is innate, "incurable" with
current medical knowledge, and badly in need of regulation.
It seems to me the House of Justice would be absolutely within its rights
to legislate on the subject of homosexuality and that from a Baha'i point
of view legislation differing from current policy is perfectly possible.
The House could rule, for example, that:
a) Shoghi Effendi's interpretation remains binding;
b) that homosexuality is an issue not specified in the Book and
therefore within the House's competence;
c) that conditions have changed since Shoghi Effendi's ruling.
It seems to me perfectly legitimate for the House to rule on this issue
on the basis of current scientific knowledge and social conditions,
restricted only, on the one hand, by a clear prohibition of pederasty
and, on the other, by general Baha'i principles about celibacy.
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 12:10:06 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: lua@sover.net (LuAnne Hightower)
Subject: At the HOP
Allah-u-Abha, Philip.
It's Mujtahid, silly. And I'm entitled - after all, seems I'm eating for two...
Love,
Lua
=END=
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 10:33:41 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: The Mysticism conference up-date.
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismanians
Due to the response all the regular cabins are now filled . Bosch is
going to open up the summer cabins to cope with the demand . They are
$5 per night cheaper ie $10 less for the week-end . I suggest if you
have not booked time is running out .
Kindest regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 13:29:01 EST
Subject: Re: intellectuals
Dear Sen,
you wrote:
>So the intellectuals (and the farmers) can be seen as 'just one element',
>but it must be understood that they are not optional or interchangeable
elements.
If the circumstances necessitate an option for exchange, Abdu'lBaha
states: (at least according to my own limited understanding and I
stand to be corrected and guided in the matter.)
"...there will we lay a foundation for system and order because the peasant
class
and the agricultural class exceed other classes in the importance of
their service..."
-Foundations of World Unity
My question is: who defines "knowing" and which is more important on a
hierarchy of meeting human needs?
Therefore, how can we think of spending already scarce resources
for "scholarship" when human beings are in need of food? Don't we have
already enough translations to deepen upon, currently? Is this not elitism?
The situation also applies to so called Research and Development
Industry couched comfortably in the Universities and siphones
billions of dollars from the system (including research for
agri-business). I am at an agriculture and engineering based
university and I am well aware of what goes on. We all know about how
some faculty run from one seminar to the other, around the globe in
expensive hotels etc., at the expense of student needs and taxpayers' money.
>I've never encountered anyone of learning and intellectual capacity with such
an attitude.
You are very blessed indeed!
> Abdu'l-Baha quotes 'An authoritative Tradition' as saying
>"As for him who is one of the learned:... It is then the duty of
>the people to pattern themselves after him."
Here, again how do you define "the learned"? There are more
than enough so called learned ones whose pattern one cannot
follow after. What about Bell Curve and many others I don't want
to waste time to list?
quanta
=END=
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 12:28:18 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Homosexuality
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Marguerite Gipson" ,
"Talisman"
>There shouldn't be any questions, it is wrong, and even if it is an ideal
>>love, it is still wrong to practice homosexual acts. However! there is
>>nothing wrong with the devotion and love between people of the same sex.
>>
>>Ok, could we please move on to some more constructive discussion-- I'm
>>afraid the bones are powder on this old dead horse and are fit only to be
>>eaten by those honored martyrs from the _DawnBreakers_.
>>
>>jeffw-- z3jef@ttacs.ttu.edu
Intellectually, this all very well put. The problem, I see, is trying
to establish a dialog that is "Baha'i" first of all and also loving and
inclusive of all views because none us can pass on the final outcome of a
soul. Perhaps some should learn to read that too.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 13:57:02 EST
Subject: Re: Abdu'l Baha in America
Esteemed Geocitizen,
>Somehow I think you must have gotten a vastly different message from the
>terms Jim has used than the message I have received.
That's obvious!
>Some of the terms you list he did not even use in reference to persons, but
>rather to ideas.
Exactly! The idea that we have attracted "groups" which reflect
those labels. I still find those labels insulting and contrary to our beliefs
in the "oneness of humanity". Is there any difference of pain of a
broken nose by someone running into you recklessly, versus someone
hitting you in the face intentionally? The pain is same regardless of
motive. However, the punishment for the two acts is different.
> In short, I see no evidence that Jim is as filled with hate and contempt as
>you seem to be lamenting.
I never thought or felt that Jim is hateful. Contempt? Maybe! But,
about what I am very unclear for he would not explain for the
reason of not sounding "whining" like the rest of us.
I like what Jim has to say most of the time. In fact, the first time
I open talisman mail, the first thing I read with great admiration
was his ideas on "Axiology". I found myself in the same plane
of thought with Jim more than you can imagine. But, perhaps I am
too much of an egalitarian and very sensitive to labels.
I also think, he is not as ????? as he appears in print. SORRY!!!
BTW, don't you think he is capable of defending himself? He knows
my e-mail address. Brave men don't fear Quanta's wrath
Jim, you are still my axiologic hero. I love you brother! Take care.
lovingly,
quanta
=END=
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 96 14:13:02 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: John's award
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Derek, just scanning through a few messages I found yours about John's
award. Believe me, Derek, he is getting pretty testy. He has not received it
yet and has been pacing back and forth to the road looking for the UPS truck.
You'd better do something about this pretty quick or I will be setting him up
with some lady who wants a temp. marriage. Really, Derek, if you are going to
promise things like this, you had better follow through. You don't seem to
realize the difficulties you can make for others. Linda
=END=
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 96 14:07:10 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: apology
To: talisman@indiana.edu
I have not had a chance to read much of the mail this morning. However, I do
need to apologize for the message I sent last night.
Of course, I'll have to start from the beginning. Early the other morning I
fell down the steps while entering the gym. It was not a graceful landing and
I have been in some pain. Yesterday I drove to Brazil, IN - about an hour and
a half ride from here and was extremely uncomfortable while trying to interview
the son of an Iranian ayatollah (in Brazil, IN - imagine!) He is a physician,
and, seeing my discomfort, asked me if I wanted him to cure me. Of course, I
said yes. He then gave me some medication. Whenever a Middle EAsterner has
ever given me medication, I have the same response. I instantly fall asleep.
Fortunately, John drove me home. I tried to force myself to stay awake to read
my e-mail and the message you saw was the result of my efforts. I said that
Sonja had written about homosexuality. After I went to bed, Alison's name
popped into my head. It was you who had written that message, wasn't it
Alison? Sorry for the sloppiness. Linda
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 21:23:33 +0100 (MET)
Subject: sonja's software
To: talisman@indiana.edu
FROM SONJA VAN KERKHOFF
RE: Alison's posting where she asks:
Is homosexuality in the "hardware" or "software" (to use Juan's
terminology)? Perhaps this is a category error...
I'd agree that ideally promoting equality works easiest from the premise
that we are all the same in our hardware and that what makes the most
of us is software.
But, I can't accept this either, because I've met so many people that
seem to be born with particular traits.
I don't know if it is a minus, to argue that people inherit sexuality,
because if people are born with different capacity, that doesn't mean
that they are less, or more 'natural'.
As a heterosexual, I tend to think, 'yes, sexuality is conditioned. I don't
have any bad feelings about homosexuals or homosexuality, and feel
that if things had been different, perhaps I would have been a
homosexual myself'. But I have this attitude because my sexuality is not
threatened.
Ask me about left or right handedness, and I'll give you another
reaction.
As a child I was beaten for using my left hand, and I could not, just
could not write with the right hand. So by the time I was around 10 I
could hardly write (nor read), then the nuns decided (or perhaps they
convinced my parents-I don't know who gave the order to normalize
me) to let me write with my left hand rather than have an illiterate.
Perhaps if they had continued, I might have adjusted to being
righted. Maybe my dislexic tendencies are to do with that experience
which was trumatic, because I have memories of a ruler slamming
down on my hand, memories of feelings of fear and secrecy to do with
writing with my left hand. But maybe these are inherited as well?
Ok, so I'm still left handed, as many artists are.
But my next question is why would I be of lesser use in society, or of
lesser value, because I was born lefthanded. And no one can convince
me that this is a part of my software, because my parents and primacy
teachers tried to beat and shame me out of this, and it didn't work.
OK, so the norm is for the right handed, righthanded eating,
righthanded layout of books etc. I can handle this, and there has to be
some system, but in finding my own solutions to some of these issues,
I've seen things differently and I believe differing
perceptions/sensitivities are of great value to a society.
Though perhaps life might be easier if I was right handed, this has been
a part of me for so long that if I could be given the chance to be right
handed, I don't know if I would want this. It's not always a bad thing to
be a minority, and I don't see how my hand orientation disadvantages
me in the sight of God.
Now I am sure there are many x-lefties who could assure me that the
changeover wasn't so bad, or righties who would tell me that they could
be either left or right handed, given the conditioning.
Yours left as ever
Sonja -who loves her right hand as equally as her left.
=END=
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 14:21:38 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Legislation and the House
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "jwalbrid" , "Talisman"
Dear John,
Excuse me for butting into this discussion, but, I think what you stated
is very well reasoned. I don't think your POV could be better put. I
hope we can agree to disagree on this one. Personally, I have been
arguing on this and other lists that this discussion should be moved to
higher plain. The legalities for the present appear clear. The House
has ruled and I can forsee no further movement. As your attorney I would
advise caution...( just kidding). But that is my whole point. We don't
have a western system of justice in the Baha'i Faith. Juan compared the
House to the American Supreme Court. I can see the parallels but I don't
feel this is accurate. I also don't want to debate the point because I'm
tired of people on both sides of the issue deploring me.
> They would take imperfect analogies and try to use them to
>settle new questions of law. This process led to (a) a lot of legal
>hairsplitting and (b) many disagreements. For homosexuality, we have as
>evidence
> 1) a statement by Baha'u'llah that certainly prohibits pederasty
>but is on the face of it ambiguous beyond that;
> 2) a statement of Shoghi Effendi, specifically referring to dated
>medical theory, identifying homosexual behavior as a moral offence that
>can be cured medically; and
> 3) current medical theory, social conditions, and moral concensus
>pointing towards the view that homosexuality is innate, "incurable" with
>current medical knowledge, and badly in need of regulation.
>
>It seems to me the House of Justice would be absolutely within its rights
>to legislate on the subject of homosexuality and that from a Baha'i point
>of view legislation differing from current policy is perfectly possible.
>
>The House could rule, for example, that:
> a) Shoghi Effendi's interpretation remains binding;
> b) that homosexuality is an issue not specified in the Book and
>therefore within the House's competence;
> c) that conditions have changed since Shoghi Effendi's ruling.
>It seems to me perfectly legitimate for the House to rule on this issue
>on the basis of current scientific knowledge and social conditions,
>restricted only, on the one hand, by a clear prohibition of pederasty
>and, on the other, by general Baha'i principles about celibacy.
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 21:31:40 +0100 (MET)
Subject: virgin birth
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Philip,
I for one don't believe the virgin birth is anything like as
'essential' as chastity. After all, no chastity, no virgin births.
I also don't believe that the narrative is historically true, and I
think you will find a lot of catholics also don't believe it to be
true in that sense. However the doctrinal point which was being
made when the narrative was composed (it is one of the last
strands of the gospel tradition) is valid: Jesus did not become the
Christ at the resurrection (earliest strand), or through a process of
trial and suffering culminating in the crucifixion (next strand), or
at the baptism, or in the desert, or when he withdrew to the
decapolis to think about things (apparently) - no, he was
something unique from his conception. Which is, as I understand
it, the Baha'i doctrine with respect to all the manifestations, and
also in that it implies that while we may become perfected in the
sense of becoming what God intends us to be (general mission
description: becoming fully human, which involves the 'imitation
of Christ' or Baha'u'llah or `Abdu'l-Baha as you prefer. Particular
job description: becoming perfectly Philip, perfectly Sen, or
perfectly Jane as the case may be), we should not be thinking of
our spiritual path in terms of becoming something which we are
not - a Manifestion (of the endowed-with-constancy founding-a-
religion variety).
In not accepting the account as a historical record, however, I am
flying against some specific texts, in the first case from
Baha'u'llah:
... reflect upon the state and condition of Mary ... Reflect,
what answer could Mary have given to the people around
her? How could she claim that a Babe Whose father was
unknown had been conceived of the Holy Ghost? (The
Kitab-i-Iqan, page 56)
and from `Abdu'l-Baha:
...and Jesus was filled with the Holy Spirit. He came to
the world through the Power of God, born of the Holy
Spirit and of the blessed Virgin Mary. Mary, His mother,
was a saint from Heaven. (Paris Talks, page 47. See also
Promulgation of Universal Peace, page 201, and
particularly Some Answered Questions ch17 (p. 87f))
And reinforced as doctrine by Shoghi Effendi, or his secretary
('Directives' does not indicate sources):
With regard to your question concerning the Virgin Birth
of Jesus; on this point, as on several others, the Baha'i
teachings are in full agreement with the doctrines of the
Catholic Church ... Baha'u'llah confirms, however
indirectly, the Catholic conception of the Virgin Birth.
Also Abdu'l-Baha in `Some Answered Questions', Chap.
12, page 73 [62-63 in my copy] explicitly states that
Christ found existence through the spirit of God which
statement necessarily implies, when reviewed in the light
of the text, that Jesus was not the son of Joseph.
We believe that Christ only was conceived immaculately.
His brothers and sisters would have been born in the
natural way and conceived naturally." (Directives of the
Guardian, page 40)
What science calls a virgin birth we do not associate with
that of Jesus Christ, which we believe to have been a
miracle and a sign of His Prophethood. In this matter we
are in entire agreement with the most orthodox church
views. (High Endeavors, page 70 - this from a secretary)
Parenthetically, there is another letter from one of Guardian's
secretaries which is probably relevant:
The churches teach doctrines - various ones in various
creeds - which we as Baha'is do not accept; such as ... in
some creeds, the denial of the Immaculate Conception.
(Light of Divine Guidance Vol.1, page 123)
The doctrine of the immaculate conception - ie that Mary was
naturally conceived but was miraculously preserved from the
taint of original sin which was believed to be passed on by the
act of coitus - is only a Bahai teaching in the sense that we do
not believe in original sin, so everyone is immaculately
conceived. Apparently the Guardian did not know what the
doctrine of immaculate conception is, since he wrote:
... the 254th pope since the inception of St. Peter's
primacy ... will be permanently remembered as the
author of the Bull which declared the Immaculate
Conception of the Blessed Virgin (1854), referred to in
the Kitab-i-Iqan, to be a doctrine of the Church, and as
the promulgator of the new dogma of Papal Infallibility
(1870). (The Promised Day is Come, page 53) 107
Now since the Iqan is clearly referring to the virgin birth of
Jesus, it looks as if this statement about the Immaculate
conception is really intended to refer to the virgin birth.
(However the Guardian is not an authority on christian
doctrine, or for that matter authorized to interpret the scriptures
of other religions, since in another letter (coincidentally about the
virgin birth again) his secretary says:
We cannot be sure of the authenticity of the scriptures of
Buddha and Krishna, so we certainly cannot draw any
conclusions about virgin birth mentioned in them. There
is no reference to this subject in our teachings, so the
Guardian cannot pronounce an opinion. (Buddha, Krisna,
Zoroaster, page 22) )
So if Baha'u'llah, `Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi are in
agreement, why not this humble servant? In brief, there are some
other Baha'i principles to which I give more weight, such as:
Any religion that contradicts science or that is opposed to
it, is only ignorance - for ignorance is the opposite of
knowledge. (Paris Talks, pages 130-131)
Whatever the intelligence of man cannot understand,
religion ought not to accept. (Paris Talks, page 131)
When a religion is opposed to science it becomes mere
superstition: that which is contrary to knowledge is
ignorance.
How can a man believe to be a fact that which
science has proved to be impossible? If he believes in
spite of his reason, it is rather ignorant superstition than
faith. (Paris Talks, page 141)
Is it not his reasoning power, his intelligence? Shall he
not make use of these in his study of religion? I say unto
you: weigh carefully in the balance of reason and science
everything that is presented to you as religion. If it passes
this test, then accept it, for it is truth! If, however, it
does not so conform, then reject it, for it is ignorance!
(Paris Talks, page 144)
See also Paris Talks, page 144, Promulgation of Universal Peace,
page 63, etc. ad infinitum, there are hundreds of such passages in
the Baha'i writings.
Another principle is the hermeneutic of the Iqan: where
Baha'u'llah finds a text whose apparent meaning is absurd, he
says it must have a symbolic meaning, and rejects the literal
meaning. `Abdu'l-Baha seems to take a similar approach to the
virgin birth in Some Answered Questions chapter 18: he ridicules
both the materialists who think they have exhausted the meaning
of the story with its literal meaning, and the theologians who
likewise cling to the literal meaning. It is not clear from this
passage whether `Abdu'l-Baha believed in the literal truth of the
narratives (he includes Quranic accounts), but it is clear that he
did not think that this was the most important point with respect
to the greatness of Christ (see following chapter).
Add to that the fact that I studied New Testament, early church
history, and Greek, and formed a low opinion of the reliability of
the Gospels as historical sources, and I think you will see why I
don't accept the doctrine as a historical fact myself, though I feel
the weight of the scriptural texts.
This harks back to my discussion with Mark a couple of weeks
ago about whether it is, or should be, sufficient to cite from
authorities (in that case the Universal House of Justice), or
whether as I said it is necessary to show the rational strength of
the opinions of such authorities - to ARGUE the case. Also to
the question of the relative weights of personal conscience vs
scripture and decisions of the institutions. I spent the afternoon
with Henry V on the BBC, and would suggest to anyone still
following this that they look at the night-before-the-battle scene,
the King's speech beginning "So, if a son that is by his father..."
and climaxing:
Every subject's duty is the King's
but every subject's soul is his own.
Sen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-216854
Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
and the individuality of each,
thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
From: Geocitizen@aol.com
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 15:29:59 -0500
To: gg@scs.howard.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: proclamation (was Re: teaching)
The message quoted below was originally posted under the subject heading
"teaching," but I have changed the subject to the more appropriate term,
"proclamation."
There has been a corruption of terminology in the Baha'i community for a long
time now, one that I and others have tried to address without much success.
Baha'is often speak of "teaching and consolidation" as if these were two
separate processes. By the term "teaching" they mean the sort of activities
described below: being in parades and on television, speaking to important
officials and civic groups, handing out pamphlets on the street and inviting
people to become Baha'is. By "consolidation" they mean the long, laborious
process of deepening and strengthening the faith of new believers, and
establishing functional communities with LSA's, 19-Day Feasts, children's
classes and so on. (In other words, the things traveling teachers happily
leave for "others" to do "later," which has meant in practice that these
things are rarely done by anyone unless the new believers do it for
themselves, or unless there are pioneers in the area.)
My study of the writings of the Guardian (which I would never claim to be
exhaustive or thorough :) reveals an entirely different usage for these
terms.
The heady activities described below bear no similarities to what the
Guardian described as teaching. This is not to criticize these activities;
in their own way they are indeed "tremendous," "wonderful," and many other
adjectives. However, to properly understand their place in the development
of the Baha'i Cause, one must realize that these activities are in the
category the Guardian called proclamation. This is a vital step in the
growth of the Baha'i community, but it cannot replace teaching, which is what
we have tried to make it do.
Teaching itself is further divided into two categories when the Guardian
speaks of it. These are expansion and consolidation.
Expansion, of course, is the numerical growth of the body of the believers;
thus, inviting people to become Baha'is and accepting their declaration of
faith is the *beginning* of the teaching process. Unfortunately, our
conception of "teaching," especially in the U.S., has often imagined that we
are finished at this point. Thus we have, all too often, simply neglected
the very heart of the teaching process, which is consolidation.
Recent plans such as the one in Houston have learned to recognize that, on
the individual level, consolidation means the new believer arises in turn to
proclaim and teach the Faith to others. Thus the Houston campaign model's
goal of having 10% of new declarants themselves become active in the teaching
campaign. Although an improvement over past models, this still falls short
of what the Guardian called for, as several Talisman members have already
pointed out.
For the teaching process to truly catch fire and spread throughout the
cities, achieving the goals of "entry by troops" and "unprecedented
expansion" set by the Universal House of Justice will require us to do *at
least* the following:
1. Recognize that consolidation is a vital, integral part of teaching. It
doesn't matter if different people handle different parts of the process:
some proclaim, some enroll new believers, and some consolidate -- but if no
one consolidates, then in effect, no one ever really taught the Faith,
either.
2. Recognize that consolidation must be carried to the community level. All
the Central Figures of the Faith called for this, and it has been restated in
contemporary terms by the Guardian, and now by the Universal House of
Justice. Beyond getting individual new believers fired up to go street
teaching, we must also create new models of community life that will meet the
spiritual, social, and human needs of all of their members, rather than
categorically excluding those who are ill-suited to administrative activism.
In sum, I want to emphasize that those on Talisman and elsewhere who are
calling for something like what I have outlined above, such as Terry, Jim,
Juan, and myself, are well aware of the exciting proclamation activies such
as those outlined below. We are not hiding in our caves and academic towers,
desperately trying to ignore the activities of our fellow Baha'is so that we
can revel in our delusions of superior knowledge, as the smug comment about
"people who think nothing is happening in the USA" seems to imply.
Rather, we are deeply concerned about the future of the Baha'i Cause, and
think perhaps the Guardian and the Universal House of Justice may have known
what they were talking about when they called upon us to do more than we
currently are doing, even in the places where things are "cooking" such as
Savannah and Houston.
Regards,
Kevin Haines
>> message quoted below <<
In a message dated 96-01-18 07:51:55 EST, you write:
>Subj: teaching
>Date: 96-01-18 07:51:55 EST
>From: gg@scs.howard.edu (George Gary)
>Sender: owner-talisman@indiana.edu
>To: talisman@indiana.edu
>
>Just a little news for people who think nothing is happening in the USA
>
>
>---------- Forwarded message ----------
>Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 21:14:36 EST
>From: MR MICHAEL C ONEAL
>To: gg@scs.howard.edu
>Subject: Re: prodigy address test
>
>Hello George
> There is a loss of words when I try to tell you what is happening
>here. We co- sponsored the largest Martin luther King Jr.paraded in
>the world and the exposure was tremendous. WE were on all the TV
>stations, met many high profile people and officals and the day of
>the parade people were running up to us on the route and taking all
>of the literature that we could hand out. We are in a wonderful state
>of being right now. Savannah is cooking!!!
>
>Allah'U'Abha
>
> Mike
=END=
From: Geocitizen@aol.com
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 15:29:54 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: the immorality of economics (was Re: Flat tax)
Saman asks:
>Do the people who fall into the top tax brackets under the
>present tax system actually pay their taxes - that is, isn't
>it true that with the loopholes in the code they reduce their
>payments?
This is indeed true. In fact, the very rich in the United States can with
relative ease render their tax liability much *lower* than that paid by those
in middle-income brackets. Mega-corporations employ a number of strategies
to not only avoid paying any taxes on their profits, but also arrange for
governments from the federal level on down to pay them back because they can
cook up "net operating losses" and other accounting wizardry. (Much more
detail on this sort of thing has been published in a very readable form by
Barlett and Steele, two reporters for the Philadelphia Inquirer. Their books
are titled "America: What Went Wrong?" and "America: Who Really Pays the
Taxes?" I recommend both highly to anyone needing a stark glimpse of
American economic injustice. There are plenty more for those who want an
in-depth view.)
However, it is also true, as Juan and others have argued, that simply
enacting a "flat tax" proposal will not reverse the manifest injustices of
our economic system. The wealthy hold a great deal of power, which they do
not hesitate to wield politically. That is why our current "income taxes"
are in practice only assessed with any regularity on income derived from
*wages*. Income derived from wealth has so many protections from taxation
that it is, by comparison, close to tax-free. The wealthy who do pay any
significant sum in taxes are, in effect, making voluntary contributions to
the running of the government. Progressives and populists have struggled for
over a century to change this situation, without any lasting success. I am
certain that any "flat tax" will end up distributing tax burdens just as
unequally, if not more so, once it has passed through the halls of a Congress
that is currently controlled by the rich and for the rich.
The reason that no procedural or structural reforms have been successful, and
that none are likely to be successful, is because the structural and
procedural framework of economic injustice arises from the moral vacuum of
modern economics itself. It is a field which explicitly disavows morality by
attempting to be "neutral" in its discussion of the interactions between
human beings and their means of producing wealth. Alas, in its attempt to
"take people as they are," the science of economics has effectively made
people less than they are, because it has enshrined personal greed as the
very engine of all wealth creation. The inhuman history of this fallacy's
effect on human lives has been discussed in a book that may well be of
central importance to the development of Baha'i scholarship on this subject.
It is "Adam Smith's Mistake: How a Moral Philosopher Invented Economics and
Ended Morality" by Kenneth Lux.
This is why there is not, and perhaps cannot be, such a thing as "Baha'i
economics." The modern science of economics is founded on materialistic --
indeed, mechanistic -- theories of human nature and the value of human life
and work. These are anathema to the Baha'i worldview. To meaningfully apply
the Baha'i teachings to the subjects of human labor, the creation and
distribution of wealth, the proper ordering of markets, and the like, it will
be necessary to transcend and root out the flawed theories that *are* the
very heart of modern economics.
It may take generations of scholars to accomplish this, and I am not
proposing that we make immediate concentrated efforts to develop a Baha'i
replacement for the field of economics. I make these points as a way of
emphasizing the degree to which the Baha'i teachings can and should
revolutionize our concepts of community life. In this context we can see
that sustained discussion of the merits and problems of "flat tax" proposals
and other such superficial modifications to a fundamantally flawed social
order is a misdirection of our energies.
Not that we should ignore such issues -- there are important principles we
can introduce when the discussion begins with tax reforms, or the funding of
public broadcasting, or the demilitarization of government expenditures.
What we must do is carry such discussions immediately to a higher level of
principle, as a way of developing the new models of community life that
'Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi, and the Universal House of Justice have
identified as vital to the future of the Baha'i Faith.
And to give our principled discussions empirical backing, we must begin
building our local communities into real working models, where high-minded
theories can be forged into actual practices whose tangible and intangible
benefits for both individuals and communities can be readily perceived by
all, whether believers or not.
As the Guardian told us, real growth will begin only when we have built
something recognizably different, something that can be seen to truly work in
a world where every other system is lurching toward collapse.
This will attract more new believers to the Faith than all the combined
picnicking, parading, and pamphlet-passing we have spent our energies on for
decades.
Regards,
Kevin Haines
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 16:25:05 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Views of the House & the American idea of Legal Positivism
It is with some amazement that when reviewing the posts that keep pouring
onto the list I see this continuing trend of what can only be called American
Baha'i legal positivism.
The idea that somehow the rulings of the Universal House of Justice are
simply a more sanctified version of the U.S. Supreme Court is very odd. The
recent re-emergence of the thread on homosexuality is a case in point.
The Universal House of Justice has made its statement on this issue. And
while it is true that in the future this may be altered in some way that we
cannot now forsee we see folks continuing to hammer away at it - as if the
very act of belaboring the issue will make the *court* review its decision.
But beyond this we see a more disturbing trend. The idea that somehow,
through the last two thousand years and the lives of various Prophets and
Holy Men and Women we still, as a species have yet to reach a point where
Truth and Reality become both indwelling and outwardly manifest.
By this I mean that Plato and Jesus, and so many others tried to bring us
to the reality that spiritual reality is One. There are no two worlds (dear
Aristotle) and the world is not ruled by legal positivism (dear William of
Ockham.) Despite the ugliness that has occurred because of rulers pretending
they had a direct line of to truth from God there has been just as much blood
shed by those professing legal positivism. Were not the Jewish doctors of
Christ's time legal positivists? This is what they used to put Him on the
cross.
Legal positivism allows us to continiously question the Universal House of
Justice. No matter what they state we can say, "Ah, but if we look at this
lexicographically, etymologically, historically, culturally . . . etc., etc.,
etc." Then we can see that the House didn't actually mean what it said, or
that it actually left the door open for later possibilities, and on & on & on
& on. Just as we do with the Supreme Court here in the U.S.
Now I have heard it said here that this process as it does occur here in
the U.S. has a long and sanctified history. True enough. Just as the concept
of the *loyal opposition* does also. The problem is that there is no place
for it in the Faith.
There is nothing in the Writings that gives licence to any of the
political processes we currently see in society. There is no version of
lobbying.
So why do we see this continuing to crop up here? I would suggest that it
is simply a direct outgrowth of liberal-democratic concepts that we have
managed to drag into the Faith. We have done our best to make the Faith fit
into the mold of America. This is one of the spiritual diseases that the
Guardian warned us against.
The disease of the philosophy of Individualism is so insidious . . . We
are so sure we are immune to it, even though the Guardian said we would not
be. We do not like the ruling of the House so we are sure that somehow the
House must be, immature, unsure, incorrect (due of course to faulty
translations) or, as is sometimes suggested, downright prejudicial.
This is immediately followed by reassuring statements that of course the
decision is of course to be obeyed that we all adhere to the House etc., etc.
etc. We're just *speculating* etc.
This is a lie. There is no way you can simultaniously reject a ruling of
the House and state that you are in complete concord with the House. This is
the same mentality that eventually leads people in the U.S. to bomb federal
institutions while proclaiming to love America and be loyal patriots.
And lest the cry be raised that what is being advocated here is some
pathetically simplsitic, fundamentalist concept of the Faith let me say that
I reject that accusation just as I reject such a mindset itself.
I think our time here would be much better spent if instead of trying to
do the House a big favor and define for them who and what they are, we
instead try to explore the very real fact that we are at a whole new
threshold of human interaction. That the Law is now within and without.
I have always stated that we need to carefully examine and reject those
axiolgical elements that hold us back. Certainly the blinding veils of
Individualism, just as those of Materialism are keeping us from moving ahead.
We so closely mirror America now. Everytime we receive something from the
House we don't like, that grates against our desires we launch into this
insistance that "We're just not understood!" or "They don't understand!" or
"But there was just and article last month in such-an-such magazine that
states that *I* am right!" or *You know if the House just had up-to-date
information they would agree with me!"
No. This is not just the danger that Baha'u'llah pointed out. Plato long
before stated the same thing. As sacred as the individual is; as precious as
the single soul is in the sight of God - the Universe was not created to
revolve around *IT*.
What the Baha'i community in America really needs to dilute this caustic
Individualism is to take some good lessons from another axiologcially right
here in the good old U.S. of A. Native Americans with their Man-to-Man
axiology have a lot to teach us about what it is to be a true individual
within a Community. Where the boundaries are to each. What a community can
and cannot demand of the individual and what a individual can and cannot
expect of the community.
Even with the spiritual diseases that exist on the reservation (mostly
introduced by White folk) and even though Man-to-Man axiology has its
drawbacks as well, there is much that we can learn. Lord knows I have.
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 96 22:26:09 UT
From: "Hannah E. Reinstein"
To: "Marguerite Gipson" ,
"Talisman"
,
"Richard C. Logan"
Subject: RE: Homosexuality
Eloquent and to the point, Richard! I submit that posts such as the one you're
responding to and the post that originally encapsulated it, contribute little
or nothing. They do not aid understanding, enhance unity nor leave a fragrance
of love and non-judgmental acceptance. We might expect to hear such absolutist
and condemnatory statements from the popular televangelists and
fungus-mentalists but they are not in the spirit of Baha'i dialog.
The Artist Formerly Known As Cary
============
"And if I laugh at any mortal thing, 'tis that I may not weep." - Byron
----------
From: owner-talisman@indiana.edu on behalf of Richard C. Logan
Sent: Sunday, 21 January, 1996 10:28 AM
To: Marguerite Gipson; Talisman
Subject: Re: Homosexuality
>There shouldn't be any questions, it is wrong, and even if it is an ideal
>>love, it is still wrong to practice homosexual acts. However! there is
>>nothing wrong with the devotion and love between people of the same sex.
>>
>>Ok, could we please move on to some more constructive discussion-- I'm
>>afraid the bones are powder on this old dead horse and are fit only to be
>>eaten by those honored martyrs from the _DawnBreakers_.
>>
>>jeffw-- z3jef@ttacs.ttu.edu
Intellectually, this all very well put. The problem, I see, is trying
to establish a dialog that is "Baha'i" first of all and also loving and
inclusive of all views because none us can pass on the final outcome of a
soul. Perhaps some should learn to read that too.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 15:57:56 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Researching Abdu'l Baha in America
On Fri, 19 Jan 1996 TLCULHANE@aol.com wrote:
. . . the popuar jounals of progressive thought , i.e. New
> Republic , Harpers , Christian Century. I have spent a few hours :) looking
> through micro fiche and have been stunned at the dramatic quality and
> profundity of what Abdul Baha was doing and saying at the time .
In 1974 I showed a Baha'i, Kurt Asplund, the Sacramento Bee in the
California State Archives in Sacramento. Kurt was then a researcher on
solar energy for the Lieutenant Governor, who later became a Congressman.
Since Kurt worked across the street from the State Library, he had easy
access to the microfilms of early California newspapers, and put his time
to good use. He found many references to the Master in the October 1912
newspapers, which Mr. Khadem sent to Haifa. My guess is that this work
has not been completed, for all of the places the Master visited. I do not
think that Allan Ward's research exhausted the state archives. So, for
you folks out there in New Hampshire, New York, Omaha, and all the places
the Master visited, there are likely undiscovered news articles,
editorials, even letters to the editor, which lay undiscovered. Kurt
found the editorials in the San Francisco Bulletin which the Master refers
to in the Tablets of the Divine Plan. And there's nothing like looking
through a 1912 church page and seeing, "Episcopal Church, 10:00 service,
Rev. Wilson speaking on marriage; Congregational Church, 11:00 a.m.
service, 'Abdu'l-Baha Abbas speaking on the New Day of God..." etc.
=END=
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 18:19:22 -0500 (EST)
From: George Gary
To: Geocitizen@aol.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: proclamation (was Re: teaching)
I agree completely. I apoogize for not changing the subject line. The
message I forwarded was one of a whole series of things happening in
Savannah. The whole community has gotten involved in service projects,
deepening, and teaching, and consolidation. I did not intend to imply that
the activity I mentioned was "teaching". What is happening in Savannah
is not a large scale project, but it is an example where all of these
steps are taking place. It was meant to cheer up those who have been
writing about the importance of the whole community getting involved and
stressing the importance of consolidation. I do believe that there
are communities where these issues are taken seriously.
=END=
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 00:16:10 GMT
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: vink@icis.on.ca (Ian Vink)
Subject: Baha'i Search update
I've added the Bab's Writings, Hindu and Bible and Qur'an to Baha'i Search.
You can get it freely from:
http://ian-vink.icis.on.ca/search.htm
Ian
=END=
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 16:57:19 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Alison & Steve Marshall
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: re questions on teaching
On Sat, 20 Jan 1996, Alison & Steve Marshall wrote:
> As you say, teaching by definition involves consolidation. This should be
> given equal resources, status, and profile that the street teaching gets.
> Moreover, my feeling is that if we were able to provide a 'community' to
> those 90 percent, we wouldn't need to street teach.
I think that in general, the aspect of consolidation has been sorely
neglected. It must not only be something that happens part of the time
during a teaching project; it has to be a life-change. I think that the
life-change is what attracts people to fundamental Christianity, and to
Mormonism. If people find a way to get out of the spiritual pit they've
dug themselves into, they will work around the most extreme of theologies.
We Baha'is have got *great* theology, but devalue the metamorphosis into
spiritual beings and communities which are also essential parts of our
Faith; therefore, we don't attract as many people.
=END=
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 96 18:29:06
From: "Stockman, Robert"
To: talisman@indiana.edu, Saman Ahmadi
Subject: Re: the term "non-Baha'i"
Personally, I don't know why people object to the term non-Baha'i. It's
neutral; it doesn't mean anti-Baha'i, nor is it condescending like "pre-Baha'i."
I have no problem considering myself a non-Christian or a non-Jew. After all,
I'm not.
-- Rob Stockman
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: the term "non-Baha'i"
Author: Saman Ahmadi at INTERNET
Date: 1/19/96 4:32 PM
Dear David and All,
I too don't like the term "non-Baha'i" - the term used in
Persian "qa'rih" [that's probably not the right transliteration]
(I think it literally means "other") is not one of my favorites either.
Believe or not, I don't have any suggestions regarding this!
regards,
sAmAn
=END=
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 16:24:15 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Cheshmak A Farhoumand
Cc: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>, Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: War economies
On Fri, 19 Jan 1996, Cheshmak A Farhoumand wrote:
. . . At one point in our conversation, he very casually said "What we
> need in this country just about now is a good war. That would set our
> economy right again!!" I was shocked to say the least . . .
I was speaking with my father recently, and he was talking about his
boyhood, and the poverty he grew up in. He then talked about the Great
Depression, and how hard everybody in the family worked. Then he also
made the comment that the war turned the economy around. That generation
which experienced the hardships of the depression, experienced "better
times" during the war. There was more food, more jobs, better pay, and a
greatly enhanced sense of national community. They also recall the
horrors of war, of course, but since they experienced poverty, and the
poverty went away during the war, they link the two. We have no
experience with a true peace time economy. Talk of one reminds them of
the dangers of unilateral disarmament. Many of that generation will not
accept our logic, having experienced a terrific shock to the national
identity because of unpreparedness at Pearl Harbor. They do not come to
terms with the ultimate wastefulness of a war economy, because it provides
such badly needed short term benefits; not unlike Reservation Bingo, in
that sense, I'd say.
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 96 19:51:47 PST
Subject: FW: forgiveness, cut-off
To: talisman@indiana.edu, Don Peden , 748-9178@mcimail.com
On Sun, 21 Jan 96 19:07:43+030 Don Peden wrote:
>Dear Phillip:
>
>Intriguing question! What about Baha'is who cut-off the community
after
>some upset? Is this a form of forgivenss, or what? What are the
>implications of cut off dynamics? Could we run a few senerios and
see what
>it looks like?
>
>Love,
>
>Bev.
>
Thanks, Bev,
Good to hear your clear and gentle voice again.
You question about the Bahai's who cut-off the community after some upset
reminds me of something I had told LuAnne a while back when I was so angry:
"Don't tell God, LuAnne, but I haven't been praying. "
And the answer is the same as the one that came up in our earlier
conversation. In meditation thoughts arise and we are not to be disturbed
by them but to accept them and allow them to flower and unfold and then, not
to be attached to them, but allow them, finally, to pass on, as they will
do.
These temporary cut-offs could be a necessary part of the healing process.
Perhaps they are merely "time-outs." Perhaps the danger is that they can
turn into cut-offs.
These are rocky passages. Suppose I and my sweetheart are having a
particularly hard time with each other. I'm hurt and angry. I say, "Listen,
Dolores, I'm had it up to here with you and I'm outa here!." Now, I haven't
done anything for the relationship or friendship except say that I'm going
away. That's probably destructive behavior on my part.
The important principle here is that I'd need to say more to protect the
underlying friendship.I'd need to be more considerate. Dolores needs to know
more. Am I going away for good? for a short while? What is at stake and how
long might it take? Dolores needs to know stuff like that.
Similarly, there is something in how the person cuts off the Bahai
community. The options:
1. That's it, here's my card, don't ever talk to me again.
2. I can't be a Bahai but I really care about you people and I want to be a
friend of the Bahai's.
3. I'm still a Bahai and I still care about you but I think you've violated
the letter and spirit and I don't think I can talk to you for a while until
I sort things out.
4. etc.
As I said, I'm just sorting this out. Here is some additional
clarification of the question:
Cutting off is a substitute for forgiveness.
If you are willing to end, i.e., cut off, the relationship, then you
don't have to forgive.
"Good bye, Dolores. I thought you were my friend. Don't call, don't write,
don't come by."
It is only when the relationship is more important than the principle
at stake that forgiveness is sort of forced upon you: "Dolores, if I didn't
love you so much, I don't think I'd ever talk to you again. "
Therapists who try to open cut-offs are cautioned to go slow, go
slow, and then even a little slower. Because, when the connection is
re-opened, all the unfinished issues are there awaiting.
What would be an example of opening the cut-off? Wrong way: " Dolores, I
know we haven't spoken in ten years, but I think I never could forgive you
for what you did to my friend Michael and even now when I see you that is
mostly what I remember." Right way: "It's so nice to see you and I remember
that there were so many things we used to enjoy talking about. Do you still
go to that funny little restaurant..." (Start with small talk.)
But why bother, right? In this respect, the lore of psychotherapy discovers
something like the law of Karma, i.e., that mental practices attain a
habitual status and create grooves in the soul which tend to guide the
heart. Those who do not care to re-groove themselves tend
only to deepen their current configuration of grooves.
(So I go from shock absorber metaphors to topographical ones. Always
exploring the Laws of Form.)
So a reason for working toward forgiveness -- even when one doesn't
want to do it --- was there ever an activity more ambivalent in its
inception? -- is to care for the grooves of one's own soul.
But it's not so open and shut. Sometimes relationships must be
sacrificed, friendships ended, memberships severed, communications
cut-off for higher reasons of the soul.
But back to the main point. A cut-off is an attempted resolution of a
relationship problem that, on the surface, appears to not contain
forgiveness. It's something like "writing something off" and "cutting
your losses." It seems to involve a "never again" decision, a sort
of negative committent. In a way, perhaps as strengthening as a
positive committment.
Well, my ideas certainly don't have a lot of shape yet.
Looking forward to hearing more.
Do I owe the discussion a senario?
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/21/96
Time: 11:46:49
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
[end of 1/21/96 session]
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