Jan 14-17, 1996
Talisman emails received 1/14/96
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Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 21:28:29 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Juan R Cole
Cc: "Richard C. Logan" , George Gary ,
talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Manifestation and Prophets of God
On Fri, 12 Jan 1996, Juan R Cole wrote:
> Baha'u'llah conceived of
> his mission as primarily the facilitation of humankind's acquisition of
> perfections. Obviously, this was also `Abdu'l-Baha's mission...
FYI, Baha'u'llah wrote in a Tablet, "My fears are for Him who cometh after
me..." In one place the Guardian identifies this person as 'Abdu'l-Baha;
in another, the next Manifestation in not less than 1000 years.
=END=
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 21:41:16 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Saman Ahmadi
Cc: talisman
Subject: Re: Houses of Worship Fund
On Fri, 12 Jan 1996, Saman Ahmadi wrote:
> 1. Pool the monies that many communities have saved for building
> Baha'i Centers.
> 2. Establish a board to review applications from communties
> wanting to build a structure - House of Worship or Baha'i Center
> or whatever the community feels would help their development.
> 3. Money would be loaned to the comunnities at a reasonable
> interest rate.
Well, on the one hand if everybody chips in a small amount, everybody
also wants the next center built in their own community. So what I would
add is that not only make small contributions, but make this fund the
beneficiary of Planned Gifts. Examples:
1. Make it the beneficiary of life insurance policies, wills, trusts, etc.
2. Get it IRS approved for tax-exempt gifts (or place it under an
existing strong LSA, as all LSA's are already approved tax-exempt bodies).
3. Make it the beneficiary of your retirement account, 401(k), etc.
The Funds of the Faith need to become the beneficiaries not only of those
monies we can afford to give during our lifetime, but also of major
portions of our wealth, at the time of our death.
There are also charitable remainder trusts which are wonderful, and which
I can post about at a later time.
Brent
=END=
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 23:48:08 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
Cc: S Lieberman , Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: The Guardian re: Hitler
During late 1933 Hitler was distancing himself from the SA, the most
disreputable part of his coalition, which would certainly have appeared
encouraging to outside observers. The Oct. 14 announced Germany's
withdrawal from the Disarmament Conference and the League of Nations.
This came, however, at the end of an artful series of speeches on his
desire for peace and was phrased in terms of the need for Germany to
regain equal rights with other great nations. He simultaneously
announced a plebiscite on the decision and gave a series of
peacable-sounding interviews. Shortly afterwards, he concluded a
non-aggression pact with Poland. Public reaction in France and Britain
was divided. Shoghi Effendi was officially cautiously optimistic, which
seems like a reasonable position at the time, given available information.
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 00:18:31 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: jwalbrid
Cc: "[G. Brent Poirier]" ,
S Lieberman , Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: The Guardian re: Hitler
It's been a while since I read William Shirer's _Rise & Fall of the Third
Reich_ but wasn't Hitler's "peace speeches" right around the same time (or
just before) he reoccupied the Rhineland?
Nima
=END=
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 96 18:23:55 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg"
To: Sadra
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Hallaj (a Manifestation *not* endowed with constancy?)
Dear Nima:
You suggest that the station of ibn Mansur, famous for describing
in words the mystical insight he was experiencing and being martyred
as a result, might be as exalted as that of Quddus. Apparently, both
referred to their mystical insight as that of being God.
As I understand it from reading about Islamic Sufism, both are the
same in that they express themselves in a very straightforward,
even if overly bold, Sufi manner.
What is interesting to me is how close they both are to expressing
a rather straightforward, uncontroversial Buddhist sentiment: that it
is possible, indeed the aim, to become identical with the highest
that can be named. In Islam, God; in Buddhism, Buddha. Much of
Mahayana Buddhism, that which is believed in India, Japan and other
northern-Asian countries, is a working out of the doctrine that all
can become Buddha, and equivalently, there are multiple manifestations
of Buddha. This, of course, means that prominent mystics, teachers,
etc., etc., can all be thought of as having attained the station of
Buddhahood.
[Some comments: to my mind, conditioned as it is by my protestant
Christian background, this Buddhist practice tends to water down
the importance of the historical Buddha. It certainly did so in
Japan, which made the historical Buddha only one of many magical
figures, many of which were local deities of long standing fame
before the Buddha arrived.]
To me, the question opens a Pandora's box: by reviving the old
mystical doctrines about a heirarchy of spiritual levels above
and beyond the ken of ordinary mortals, but somehow visible to
spiritual adepts, we seen to embrace all the old gnostic traditions
complete with discussions of how many angels can sit on the head
of a pin. I am willing to accept Baha'u'llah's authority when
he designates this or that person as having some exalted station.
But I am uncomfortable, perhaps because of my scientific training,
with a threatened revival of all the arcane and esoteric doctrines
that have grown up to surround, and, in my opinion, strangle, the
mystical sciences.
So, coming back towards your questions, but asking one of my own:
isn't there some criterion that we, the un-illuminated, un-exalted,
and the un-buddha-level followers of Baha'u'llah can use in judging
whether or not ibn Mansur was spiritual exalted, or another
self-absorbed ascetic?
Yours sincerely,
Stephen Friberg
P.S. Dear Nima, I know that I've departed chaotically from your
question, but I've been reading those books on Islamic philosophy
and mystic thought you picked out for me, and I want to reconcile
all of this mystic thought with the de-emphasis on formal mysticism
that, mistakenly or not, I see in the Baha'i revelation.
You see, I now know now that the Ayatollah Khomeini was an
"erfan" teacher, a teacher of Islamic mysticism. Are all the
Talisman Baha'is going to rush off to the Bosch mysticism
conference and become Ayatollahs? And one of the big questions
about the modern and influential Japanese philosophers and teachers
of Zen, D. T. Suzuki and his friends, is how much they supported
Japan's militaristic nationalists in their right-wing expansionist
policies that led to the Pacific war. Similar questions arise about
Heidegger, an avowed supporter of German National Socialism, and
the foremost modern philosophical proponent of "being" oriented
thought close in spirit to Sufi mystical thinking.
=END=
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 02:32:53 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Gordon McFarlane
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: The Kabbalah, esoterism & the Baha'i Faith
Dear Gordon & talizens--
Continuing our thread on the Kabbalah; you had asked:
> "Can any one here tell me
> if there is a connection between the Hebrew letter "Vau" and the "I", or if
> the statement that "the manifestation of the He final on earth would be in
> espousal with Vau, but there is a separation in the present order until
> that which now hinders shall be taken out of the way", relates in any way to
> Baha'u'llahs revelation of "the word which shall put the kings and rulers of
> the earth to flight" as "The He has now been made manifest in the I" (and
> the other quote by William Postel)
I don't dare to speculate, but, personally, I have a problem reading
prophecies of future eschatological events into mystical texts such as the
Zohar or others. In Judaism particularly this was a dangerous deviation
committed by the seventeenth century pseudo-Messiah, Sabatai Zevi, and
his group, the Donmeh (the Sabbatians) -- seen as heterodox from *only* an
orthodox point of view, that is; I personally find the Sabbatians very
fascinating. In fact the Sabbatians (as Abbas Amanat has aptly noted in
his book) have doctrines strikingly similar to those of the
the Bab (the numbers 9 & 18, for instance, have very important occult
significance for the Donmeh and Sabatai Zevi's hierarchy constituted 18
primary deputies to the Messiah). The problem I have is this:
valorization of esoteric ideas.
When the Kabbalist texts for example speak about the exile of the
Shekinah and Her restoration, they're speaking not of a *temporal* exile &
restoration but of a cosmic one in an *eternal now*. The Shekinah's exile &
restoration symbolizes pneumatic/ontological states of realization within
the soul; the reestablishment of the covenant being a primordial and
mystico-soteriological one, that of union with the Divine Ground.
There's a slightly correlative idea which appears in Nizari Ismailism
(the famous Assassins) about the Islamic "Yawm al-Qiyamah" (Day of
Resurrection). The qiyamat is a pneumatic event, not a historical one per
se, and the recognition of the Imam constitutes the recognition of (and
union with) "the Imam of one's being," although there was in fact an
Imam -- Hassan II (albeit most scholars question his actual existence) --
who proclaimed this General Resurrection in 1164 at Alamut. The Seven
Imams are the Seven archetypal Imams or states of mystical
consciousness. The 13th/14th century Central Asian Kubrawi Shaykh, Aladowleh
Simnani, made a similar hermenuetic with regard to Ibn `Arabi's _Fusus
al-Hikam_: states of realization are essentially states of union on the
path with the seven archetypal prophets, culminating with Muhammad.
In any case -- not to get side-tracked --, you have raised some very
important questions on the Kabbalah & the Baha'i Faith. Hope we can keep
this thread going...
Regards,
Nima
=END=
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 23:49:00 +1300 (NZDT)
To: "Richard C. Logan" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Misunderstandings: deep blue devil
Dear Richard,
>Don't ever feel I was intimating that you are a "Spiritual Philistine".
>(Joke)
I wish you hadn't put "joke" on the end of that. Now I'm wonderin'
>You are obviously a brilliant man and a humble and humorous one to boot.
You are the very first to recognise this... Even those who've known me for
years still think I'm a rather arrogant dullard with a sick sense of
humour.
>
>For my own part, all I can say on this issue is--when the "Intellect"
>fails because it is a very limited tool:
So that's it: I'm a dry intellectual without a mystical heart..? Who am I
to argue with a man of insight?
Best wishes,
Robert aka Goofy.
=END=
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 00:17:25 +1300 (NZDT)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: SDC 13: "I see a thousand builders unequal to one subverter..."
Talismans
The power of one insincere soul to throw human affairs into to disorder is
indicated in the following passage. Also indicated is the vast difference
of worth in the sight of God between a corrupt and a virtuous soul. The
virtuous soul, here, displays both intellectual and ethical strengths...
I think this is number 13. But I could be wrong.
Robert
SDC 13
It is unquestionable that the object in establishing parliaments
is to bring about justice and righteousness, but everything hinges on the
efforts of the elected representatives. If their intention is sincere,
desirable results and unforeseen improvements will be forthcoming; if not,
it is certain that the whole thing will be meaningless, the country will
come to a standstill and public affairs will continuously deteriorate. "I
see a thousand builders unequal to one subverter; what then of the one
builder who is followed by a thousand subverters?"
The purpose of the foregoing statements is to demonstrate at least
this, that the happiness and greatness, the rank and station, the pleasure
and peace, of an individual have never consisted in his personal wealth,
but rather in his excellent character, his high resolve, the breadth of
his learning, and his ability to solve difficult +P24 problems. How
well has it been said: "On my back is a garment which, were it sold for a
penny, that penny would be worth far more; yet within the garment is a
soul which, if you weighed it against all the souls in the world, would
prove greater and nobler."
=END=
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 11:37:46 +0000 (GMT)
From: Robert Parry
Cc: Alethinos@aol.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Packer schmacker
shush!!! them yanquee`s don`t know that!
robert
On Sun, 14 Jan 1996, Robert Johnston wrote:
> Robert Parry wrote:
> >All you American Football fanatics! Haven`t you ever seen or heard how
> >the Welsh play Rugby Union? Now that`s an experience!!!
>
> Huh!!!!??? Once upon a time!!! I mean: is Jonah Lomu from Cardiff or South
> Auckland?
>
> Robert.
>
>
=END=
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 96 20:47:24 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Zen and Las Vegas
Dear Talisman Friends:
After travel and winter vacation, I'm back to Talisman, anxious to see how
the discussions have evolved.
I am very eager to see continued discussion on the Faith and Buddhism
(especially Japanese Buddhism), science, philosophy, mystical thinking, and
also the various threads about "America's Destiny." I also would like to
see discussion of aesthetics: I'm increasingly convinced that culture
advancement has a very strong aesthetic component -- that intellectual
coercion is almost guaranteed to backfire, but that aesthetics can make often
make equivalent advances without provoking a stir.
LAS VEGAS:
Burl wrote amusingly about my visit to Las Vegas a month ago. Perhaps I
should update everyone. I stayed at Caesar's Palace, the first "theme" hotel
on the Strip, and perhaps the most interesting, with its cavernous gaming
rooms, over-the-edge Italian decorative style, and the Forum: a huge upscale
indoor shopping emporium with a Spago's, a Planet Hollywood, and all the
designer boutiques anybody could desire. Also, excellent free music: I saw
the Drifters, that great 60's Motown group that popularized "Under the
Boardwalk" and so many other tunes.
For me, the conference highlight was dinner with the plenary speaker and the
conference organizer, both well-known Japanese professors, at the hotel's
expensive Chinese restaurant. The plenary speaker, Akira Hasegawa of Osaka
University, was at AT&T Bell Labs for twenty years, where he discovered
optical solitons, which now stand poised to be an important component of the
very latest, fastest optical-fiber intercontinental communications networks
(Internet's technological underpinnings). Professor Hasegawa, who may win a
Nobel Prize someday, returned to Japan to live in Kyoto, whose culture and
aesthetics he loves. There, he wrote an interesting book: The Zen of
Physics, which I'm still trying to get a copy of.
The book is not a "Tao of Physics" book like Frijtof Capra's. Rather, it is
a record of the comments of the distinguished abbott, now passed on, who was
head of one of Kyoto's top Zen temples. Professor Hasegawa brought his
friends, many of them top physicists, to visit with the abbott and discuss
intellectual matters, and the book records the discussions. The abbott, who
moved in top circles in Japan, traveled widely, spoke English well, and was
heir to the tradition that included D. T. Suzuki and other famous Zen
teachers, gave answers very much in the spirit of the great Zen priest Dogen,
of whom Juan Cole has written.
Professor Hasegawa's ideas about Zen philosophy and Japanese religion, as
befits a physicist who likes universal laws, were simple and thought
provoking. Zen and Taoism, he said, and the "negative" ways of thinking
about things that they entail, are a "feminine" way of thinking, with all the
good connotations that such a label implies. In contrast to the highly
rationalized "negative" thinking of the Indian philosophers, Chinese Taoism
and native Japanese religion originated in and kept alive the traditions of
the early farming-oriented matriarchical societies that usually seem to have
been overrun by warrior societies elsewhere. (These traditions are very
similar to those of native American peoples: spirit fills the earth, and the
things in it, and is especially concentrated at holy places and in divine
things. But the spirit can't be separated from those places and things: such
a dualism is an artificial abstraction of the mind. Thus, nature is sacred
and is to be respected and nourished. Rationalizing, governing, ruling,
making distinctions, these are all what is done when things have fallen away
from harmony: they are attempts at domination, and an imposition by those who
are unaware of the spiritual realities of things, they are an attempt to
control by making divisions.)
The best? I've an invitation to visit Dr. Hasegawa in Kyoto come spring, go
to the temple and discuss with the new abbott.
My period in Las Vegas was a bit strange: I didn't adjust quickly to American
time, so I stayed awake at night and slept much of the day. Walking the
Strip at night was alienating -- all big hotels, construction sites, and
littered pornographic "newspapers" with "Penthouse" advertisements for
prostitutes blowing around everywhere -- America at its worst. It wasn't
until I took a bus away from the strip that I found a growing suburban
American town in a great desert setting.
After Las Vegas, I went to New Mexico, meeting Nima, Brent, and Enrico
Indiogine. I'll fill you in on that the next time I write.
Yours sincerely,
Stephen R. Friberg
=END=
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 09:04:46 -0500 (EST)
From: George Gary
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: WWI & WWII in the Writings
I went to a diner last night and told someone about the Faith. He wants
to meet me tonight at 6pm EST to talk more. In particular, he is
interested in anything in the Writings that was written about World War
I and II prior to their occurrence.
What's the best quote to show him. Also He didn't believe the NAACP was
in existence in 1912 when Abdu'l-Baha spoke to them on 30 April 1912
(p69 PUP) on the occasion of their 4th Annual Conference. Does anyone
know when it was formed and a good reference for that?
=END=
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 09:45:06 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Misunderstandings: deep blue devil
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Robert Johnston" ,
"Talisman"
>>Don't ever feel I was intimating that you are a "Spiritual Philistine".
>>(Joke)
>
>I wish you hadn't put "joke" on the end of that. Now I'm wonderin'
I see your point. I retract the "(joke)" part.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 96 19:43:18 PST
Subject: Re: sociobiology
To: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com, Burl Barer
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
On Fri, 12 Jan 96 16:38 PST Burl Barer wrote:
>the drumming was on the 1&3,
>
>
Burl, what is this about? Is this one of those white men can't jump
things?
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/12/96
Time: 19:43:18
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 96 11:50:06
From: "Stockman, Robert"
To: talisman@indiana.edu, Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Subject: Re: maturity, collective centre, HOW
Sen writes:
And more ... WHY are Wilmette and Hofheim and Kampala (to name 3 Houses
of Worship with Talismanians in their metaphorical shadows) not the
most radiant thriving growing commmunities? (Or are they?)
Rob notes:
I can say something about the temple in Wilmette. It adds immeasurbly
to the spiritual life of the greater Chicago Baha'i communities. It
holds large and well-attended Holy Day observances, and is open for
prayers at dawn every day (not that I have ever gone, but a few people
do). It is constantly available for personal prayer (except at night,
when it's locked up, mostly for insurance reasons) and I have seen
non-Baha'is rush in and pray their hearts out (obviously after a
terrible personal trauma). It has an incredible flood of visitors;
several thousand a day on a summer Sunday, which produces traffic jams.
There is a declaration a week there. And y'all remember my rabbit
stories, which bring out another dimension of the place. My best
friend, who is now a Baha'i because he worked at the Temple and now
works the night shift for the Baha'i public safety office, explains the
Faith on the front steps at 3 a.m. in the morning to people who stop by
to see the place.
I'm not sure what the Temple adds specifically to the Wilmette
community because the temple is a *national* house of worship, not a
local house of worship. The Wilmette community uses it very rarely.
One thing the Temple badly needs, also, is a proper public meeting
space, because there are many restrictions in the writings on how the
prayer space can be used. Thus a feast, for example, would have its
worship portion upstairs and the rest in a hall. The House of Worship
does not have a proper hall; the basement is a temporary solution, and
is not particularly aesthetic.
-- Rob
=END=
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 96 11:50:03
From: "Stockman, Robert"
To: "RUTH E CLARK" , talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re[2]: Superbowl predictions
Dear Ruth: When I was young, I regarded sports as a 100% waste of
time. Now that I am older and wiser, I see it has some social utility
and some entertainment value, so I regard it as only 90% a waste of
time. Frankly, I couldn't care less who wins the Superbowl, the World
Series, etc. It took me three or four years to learn the names of the
Chicago sports teams and I think I still get them mixed up.
One possible value of the Superbowl: whenever it happens (next
weekend? the weekend after?), perhaps there won't be 50 Talisman
messages to wade through that day.
-- Rob
______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________
Subject: Re: Superbowl predictions
Author: "RUTH E CLARK" at INTERNET
Date: 1/13/96 5:46 PM
Thumbs up! Can't believe a man saying this. Great!
So, whaat is talisman for, I wonder.
=END=
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 13:21:48 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: "Richard C. Logan"
Cc: Member1700@aol.com, Talisman
Subject: Re: Spheres of conferred infallibility
Richard:
The position that the "infallibillity" (`ismat) of the Guardian and the
House is limited in scope, primarily moral, and conditioned upon
available information is derived from their own writings. To wit:
FAQ on issues in omniscience and infallibility.
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
Unfolding Destiny, p. 449:
Re: the Guardian,
"He likes to be provided with facts by the friends when they ask his
advice, for although his decisions are guided by God, he is not, like the
Prophet, omniscient at will, in spite of the fact that he often senses a
situation or condition without having any detailed knowledge of it."
______________
The Universal House of Justice
Baha'i World Centre
Haifa, Israel
July 25, 1974
(Name)
Dear Baha'i Friend,
We have received your letter stating you were disturbed by
statements made in your deepening class regarding the infallibility of
the beloved Guardian and we appreciate your concern.
According to your letter, this question arose in connection with
Shoghi Effendi's references in GOD PASSES BY to historical events, and
his descriptions of the characters of opponents of the Faith,
particularly that of Haji Mirza Aqasi. Letters written on behalf of the
Guardian by his secretary to individuals who asked similar questions
clearly define the sphere of the Guardian's infallibility. We quote from
two of these, one written in 1944, and the second in in 1956.
"The infallibility of the Guardian is confined to
matters which are elated strictly to the Cause and
interpretations of the Teachings; he is not an infallible
authority on other subjects, such as economics, science, etc."
"The Guardian's infallibility covers interpretation of
the revealed word, and its application. Likewise any
instructions he may issue having to do with the pro-
tection of the Faith, or its well-being must be closely
obeyed, as he is infallible in the protection of the Faith.
He is assured the guidance of both Baha'u'llah and the
Bab, as the Will and Testament of 'Abdu'l-Baha clearly reveals."
Now, in the matter of the accuracy of historical fact, Shoghi
Effendi had to rely on available information. For example, on page 5 of
GOD PASSES BY, he refers to Haji Mirza Aqasi as ". . . the idolized tutor
of Muhammad Shah, a vulgar, false-hearted and fickleminded schemer . .
." An appropriate and pertinent quotation supporting that
characterization can be found in P. M. Sykes's A HISTORY OF PERSIA,
Volume 2, pages 439-440, which appears as a footnote on page 233 of
NABIL'S NARRATIVE:
"The state of Persia, however, was not satisfactory; for
Haji Mirza Aqasi, who had been its virtual ruler for thir-
teen years, 'was utterly ignorant of statesmanship or of
military science, yet too vain to receive instruction and
too jealous to admit of a coadjutor; brutal in his language;
insolent in his demeanour; indolent in his habits; he
brought the exchequer to the verge of bankruptcy and the
country to the brink of revolution . . ." Such--to adopt
the weighty words of Rawlinson--was the condition of Persia
in the middle of the nineteenth century."
The Guardian was meticulous about the authenticity of historical
fact. One of the friends in Yazd wrote to him stating that the account
given by 'Abdu'l-Baha in one of His Tablets about events related to the
martyrdom of some of the believers in that place sas in conflict with
known facts about these events. Shoghi Effendi replied saying that the
friends should investigate the facts carefully and unhesitatingly
register them in their historical records, since 'Abdu'l-Baha Himself had
prefaced His recording of the events in His Tablet with a statement that
it was based on news received from Yazd.
It is a great pity if some of the friends fail to recognize the
matchless prose to be found in the Guardian's writings. Shoghi Effendi's
masterly use of the English language makes the meaning abundantly clear,
and that is an essential quality of great works.
. . . (Personal greetings deleted.)
With warmest Baha'i greetings,
THE UNIVERSAL HOUSE OF JUSTICE
cc: National Spiritual Assembly of the United States
---------
August 22, 1977
The Universal House of Justice
Baha'i World Centre
Haifa, Israel
Dear Baha'i Friend:
The Universal House of Justice received your letter
of 26 June seeking clarification on the infallibility of
the Guardian and of the Universal House of Justice. We
have been asked to convey the following to you.
As the three questions you have raised are
interrelated, it will be conducive to a clearer
understanding of the issues involved if these questions
are considered together.
Shoghi Effendi was asked several times during his
ministry to define the sphere of his operation and his
infallibility. The replies he gave and which were written
on his behalf are most illuminating. He explains that he
is not an infallible authority on subjects such as
economics and science, nor does he go into technical
matters since his infallibility is confined to "matters
which are related strictly to the Cause." He further
points out that "he is not, like the Prophet, omnicient at
will," that his "infallibility covers interpretation of
the revealed word and its application," and that he is
also "infallible in the protection of the Faith."
Furthermore, in one of the letters, the following
guideline is set forth:
". . . It is not for individual believers to limit the
sphere of the Guardian's authority, or to judge when they
have to obey the Guardian and when they are free to reject
his judgment. Such an attitude would evidently lead to
confusion and to schism. The Guardian being the appointed
interpreter of the Teachings, it is his responsibility to
state what matters which, affacting the interests of the
Faith, demand on the part of the believers complete and
unqualified obedience to his instructions."
It must always be remembered that authoritative
interpretation of the Teachings was, after 'Abdu'l-Baha,
the exclusive right of the Guardian, and fell within the
"sacred and prescribed domain" of the Guardianship, and
therefore the Universal House of Justice cannot and will
not infringe upon that domain. The exclusive sphere of
the Universal House of Justice is to "promounce upon and
deliver the final judgment on such laws and ordinances as
Baha'u'llah has not expressly revealed." Apart from this
fundamental difference in the functions of the twin
pillars of the Order of Baha'u'llah, insofar as the other
duties of the Head of the Faith are concerned, the
Universal House of Justice shares with the Guardian the
responsibility for the application of the revealed word,
the protection of the Faith, as well as the duty "to
insure the continuity of that divinely-appointed authority
which flows from the Source of our Faith, to safefuard the
unity of its followers, and to maintain the integrity and
flexibility of its Teachings." However, the Universal
House of Justice is not omniscient; like the Guardian, it
wants to be provided with facts when called upon to render
a decision, and like him it may well change its decision
when new facts emerge. . . .
The Universal House of Justice assures you of its
loving prayers on your behalf.
With warm Baha'i greetings,
For the Department of the Secretariat
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 10:27:17 PST8PDT
Subject: puttin' the hurt on 'em/ Re: Univ. House of Justice Letter on Ho
Greetings Mr. Collins/talismanians,
Mr. Collins, thanks for the well thought out points. Dan Orey
is out of town for a week or so (somewhere in Virginia for a
conference (?), maybe you'll bump into him). Sam Lynch is not
subscribed to talisman, and I don't think Counsellor Birkland
is subscribed at this time either. Hope you don't feel out of
the loop.
Too bad that people have overreacted to your thoughts about
these issues in the past. I think that what you have stated
is a plausible analysis based on the the written intentions of
the Institutions, and you are clearly trying to help people
avoid some of the obvious potholes that they might fall into
if they get into the typical current "pro vs. anti" mindset
instead of discussing this in a spirit of Baha'i consultation.
I am not sure about the validity of the comparisions and
connections that you made with family values, drug use,
alcoholism, etc. Perhaps someone else will respond, or I'll
have time to further explore those topics later.
I'm not sure that you ever got any information about the second
Baha'i gay "networking" group that you mention in your message.
As far as I know, Dan and Sam *are* still working with Birkland,
so I hope you don't think that they are advocating a totally
rogue operation of some kind. In addition to the UHJ letter to
the USA NSA that was published in the American Baha'i
(newsletter), the UHJ also sent letters to two individuals that
discussed some of the exact details that you wrote about. I have
your snail mail address, and have put the task of photocopying
those two letters and sending them to you on my "to do" list.
There are also some old talisman postings about the mandate of
the "networking" group, I'll try to rummage around in my email
archives and forward a compilation of that stuff on to you (or
anyone else that is interested).
OK, now for the quibble. First, I personally think it is a bit
oversanitized to discuss this stuff in an impersonal fashion. I
appreciate the need for detachment and precise expression of
thought (after all, we really don't want to become PC parrots
that just squawk every time we feel the need for some liberal
social virtue), but some of the motivation for working toward a
greater understanding of how the community should *cope* with
the whole range of homosexual issues is based on a great deal of
pain. I don't want to oversimplify, but I don't see how we can
just sweep AIDS, teen suicide and the other problematic social
aspects of the situation under the rug, and then beat on them
with the vacuum cleaner until the lump goes away (strange
unintentional metaphor!).
I may well be that the best OVERALL coping tool that the Faith
can offer those dealing with emotional pain about homosexuality
is the one that you have described. Time will tell. Hopefully
some clinical or other serious research will be applied to the
question such that our understanding of the Baha'i principles
can be properly refined. Can we afford to not carefully and
supportively explore other possibilities and nuances until we
reach some level of certainty?
I look forward to your further thoughts,
Eric D. Pierce
(PierceED@csus.edu)
> Date sent: Sat, 13 Jan 96 16:06 EST
> From: "William P. Collins" <0004705541@mcimail.com>
> To: Talisman
> Subject: Universal House of Justice Letter on Homosexuality
> It was with some consternation that I read the recent Talisman posting
> about a Baha'i who is withdrawing from the Faith because of the
> Universal House of Justice's letter dated 11 September 1995 regarding
> homosexuality (The American Baha'i, 23 Nov. 1995, p. 11).
>
...snipped (many long and interesting paragraphs)
> My main point is that the Universal House of Justice was not making a
> statement intended to close the Faith to homosexuals. It was making
> a statement that some teachings are truly fundamental and universal,
> that they are not simply time-conditioned policies that are to be
> changed with every social pressure by ideologically and sexually
> committed people with a lot to say. The House was also saying that
> an organized community with such basic moral principles cannot
>
> officially recognize internal groups that want to press for those
> basic principles to be changed.
>
> Bill Collins
>
=END=
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 96 13:51:11 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: language, departures
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Mark, I hope that you will take Ahang's comments seriously about
restrictions on the list. It is apparent that you have felt discomfort with
the openness of the discussions on Talisman and I presume that this is the main
reason for starting your own list. However, I don't know what can be gained
intellectually by stifling the type of discourse that goes on. By allowing the
listowner the amount of leeway you are giving yourself to determine the
"appropriateness" of comments certainly gives you a great deal of power. I
don't see where this is in comformity with Baha'i principles at all. Linda
On another note, certain of you - Burl, for instance - might want to refer to
Dave Barry's "As Mister Language Person" column this morning. One of the
questions devoted to "Mister Language Person" was: "What about peopel who say,
'between you and I'?" A. "We favor execution without trial."
I do hope that you won't be hijacking another UPS truck to hand deliver John's
award, Derek. There was enough trouble the last time you did it. John would
like to know what the initials stand for. But since he is the sort of guy who
won't ask directions, he likewise won't ask this sort of question publicly
either. I notice that, while everything I ever post on Talisman is filed away
to be used against me later, John's flaws are carefully concealed. I
mentioned, for example, that John was very remiss in his duties of keeping the
fire stoked so that I could have a very hot sauna when we were in the north
woods. Instead I was quite chilly. Still, he is to receive a reward for his
husbandly endurance. This truly is sexism at its worst. And for the last
time, Derek, I don't where black and white Ninja suits! Otherwise, everything
is fine. Love, Linda
=END=
From: l.droege@genie.geis.com
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 96 18:49:00 UTC 0000
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: WWI & WWII
George,
There is of course Baha'u'llah's warning in His Tablet to Kaiser
Wilhelm I: "O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore,
inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you
shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though
she be today in conspicuous glory." (Proclamation of Baha'u'llah, p. 39)
If I remember correctly, enemies of the Faith in Iran during WWI
advertised this statement widely as a _false_ prophecy while
Germany was
doing well, and were pretty embarrassed when the tide turned.
There are also lots of pre-WWI quotes from 'Abdu'l-Baha, particularly
in _Promulgation of Universal Peace_ (look in the index under "prophecies
and warnings"). One of my favorites is on p.317: "Europe is a storehouse
of explosives awaiting a spark. All the European nations are on edge, and
a single flame will set on fire the whole of that continent." This is
from a speech in Montreal on Sept. 5, 1912.
For WWII, check the index in anything by Shoghi Effendi. There's plenty.
Re the NAACP: it was founded in 1909 by an assortment of concerned people,
both black and white. One of the co-founders & early leaders was W.E.B.
DuBois, a renowned black activist and founding member of the Niagara
Movement. I found this info in Compton's Encyclopedia under "Black
Americans" but it should be in any other decent encyclopedia and
possibly some dictionaries as well.
Leigh
=END=
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 13:38:08 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Re: Re[2]: Superbowl predictions
Dear Robert,
You wrote:
> Dear Ruth: When I was young, I regarded sports as a 100% waste of
> time. Now that I am older and wiser, I see it has some social utility
> and some entertainment value, so I regard it as only 90% a waste of
> time. Frankly, I couldn't care less who wins the Superbowl, the World
> Series, etc. It took me three or four years to learn the names of the
> Chicago sports teams and I think I still get them mixed up.
>
> One possible value of the Superbowl: whenever it happens (next
> weekend? the weekend after?), perhaps there won't be 50 Talisman
> messages to wade through that day.
>
> -- Rob
With all due respect, why can't the football messages be seen
in the same light as Linda bashing, various pet stories, women
envoys to aid Ahmad, etc. etc.
And I don't think there were 50 messages about football - at the most
10-15 and that in a couple of days.
Shoghi Effendi, if I recall, played tennis and was a fan of
real football (aka soccer).
All in all, I'd rather plow through the fluff category that
all these subjects cover than to read some of the other threads
on Talisman.
Have I become too American?
regards,
sAmAn
=END=
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 14:29:34 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Spheres of conferred infallibility
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Juan Cole"
Cc: , "Talisman"
Dear Juan,
I've been trying to illuminate the subtle distinction, that, while it =
may be true to outward appearance that we have a situation of people =
like everybody else, making mistakes, engaged in folly, and so on, it =
doesn't mean that there isn't a "guiding" hand behind the scenes =
controlling the destinies of the acts of the House and in the past =
the Guardian, himself. I think we need to make a distinction here =
between the INFALLIBILITY OF THE BAB AND BAHA'U'LLAH'S GUIDANCE TO =
the Guardian and the House and a possible misconception of a kind of =
"intrinsic to infallibility" regarding the House and the Guardian. =
If that's what you are saying (because I don't want like to have to =
go back to some FAQ) then I agree. My problem with this discussion =
is less sophisticated individuals who can't follow the intricacies of =
this line of thought fall victim to a woeful misevaluation of the =
station of the Guardian and the function of the House, and thus, the =
many misleading inferences that follow. Just take one hypothetical =
example. Abdu=B9l-Baha wrote in reference to the guidance given the =
Guardian and the House, "Whatsoever they decide is of God." "Well", =
one could say, "technically we have to do this (a hypothetical =
command) but that=B9s only because they say so there is no wisdom in =
it. It isn=B9t really from God."
It is a degrading misapprehension of the "function" of these =
institutions to reduce them to mere sovereigns so to speak. Everyone =
in existence owes everything they have to God and has derived =
everything they have from God. Everything is a gift. Nothing is =
intrinsic. But one must be able to comprehend the significance of =
stations and functions ordained by God.
I can't help but wonder at the obtuseness with which the Masters =
statement, "...the Guardian of the Cause of God, as well as the =
Universal House of Justice...are both under the care and protection =
of the Abha Beauty, under the shelter and unerring guidance of the =
Exalted One (the Bab) (may my life be offered up for them both). =
Whatsoever they decide is of God." is sometimes met.
If we were to take the line of reasoning that their "conferred =
infallibility" primarily "moral", that is, moral authority is the =
extent of their infallibility (if I understand you correctly) then =
they are actually no different than the other Houses of Justice. =
Because we have to obey them too. Our duty to the Local Houses is =
the same. And they go through the same process of sifting facts and =
re-evaluating decisions and so forth ergo the Local Houses of Justice =
are infallible. If one were to define infallibility as moral =
authority.
If that's what you're saying it's a novel Idea.
One thing that has never been broached so far, that I know of, by the =
proponents of this POV is the question of "Guidance" as it relates to =
the ENTIRE CONTEXT of this issue. Perhaps you could elucidate for us =
the significance of "Guidance" and "Infallibility". So far it seems =
that my opponents in this matter think they are separate issues. I =
hold that they aren't.
"Clink"-- of glass to you
Richard
PS
I don't believe that omniscience is even an issue here for those of =
insight.
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Sub: ... no subject ...
From: "Steven Kolins"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 15:47:39 EST
unsubscribe please
tried many times through majordomo for a few days now with
no success
All I need is Freedom of spirit, Chastity of soul, and Purity of
heart. A pov is not even secondary.
=END=
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 96 10:04:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Hallaj
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Nima jan,
I spent a few minutes this morning doing a quick search through
various indices of Abdu'l-Baha's published Writings, and didn't
find specific reference to Hallaj -- nor to Football or Dallas
Cowboys ;-}
Vahid Rafati has written on Hallaj and in fact, if I recall
correctly, discovered a poem quoted by Abdu'l-Baha to belong to
Hallaj. (My memory is fuzzy on this, so please double check.)
I think there is every reason to draw parallel between Quddus and
Hallaj, and I believe it was you and Chris Buck who first
suggested this. Now, I've never read Hallaj, but it case of
Quddus, often He makes His divinity claims as *not* for Himself,
but rather says that as-yet-hidden Source of all good, referred
by Him as "Ta" (abjad value = 9 = Baha), is the One Who will say
such a thing! In other words, in very subtle language he is
anticipating what Hadrat-i Ta will be saying about His (Ta's)
divine station.
Now we've seen the Tablets from Baha'u'llah and Abdu'l-Baha
confirming that the very object of Quddus' Writings is to speak
of the Day of Baha'u'llah and to eulogize Him, as such many of
these expressions of "I am God" must therefore refer back to
Baha'u'llah.
Perhaps when Hallaj says "I am God", the "I" stands for Muhammad
and not his own person. I don't know, but look forward to
hearing your views.
What I like to suggest is a study correlating the writings of
Hallaj and Quddus. Do either you or others know of anything left
from Hallaj (besides a few Arabic verses that I've seen
somewhere...)? If there is any of his writings left then let's
discuss doing a comparative study.
take care, ahang.
ps. Cowboys all the way!
=END=
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 10:25:44 +1200
To: Robert Parry
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Packer schmacker
Cc: Alethinos@aol.com, talisman@indiana.edu
At 11:37 AM 14/1/96, Robert Parry wrote:
>shush!!! them yanquee`s don`t know that!
>robert
"Yanquees"? Ref: The Last of the Mohicans? On TV last night... Great movie...
Better stop writing trivia. Fear hand smack...
Best wishes,
Robert.
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 16:28:13 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Woodburn: from the edge . . .
I can give a perspective of Woodburn form someone who was there at the
very beginning. It was also the glory days of Oregon's CITADEL project. It
was actually a combination of these two things that brought the only large
influx of new believers.
Don't misunderstand - I was never on the *inside* of the project. I was
there off and on - working with Citadel, the Woodburn folk, etc. My ex-wife
was doing a lot of work down there.
But it was obvious from the outset that even though the idea of doing this
in Woodburn was a good idea in general it suffered from the same problems
that all such projects before and since suffer from - all those elements we
have been talking about with regard to America's spiritual destiny.
First of all there was no *community* - either in Woodburn or in the
entire Portland Metro area. There was no cohesive unity. First of all the
Portland LSA was in the initial stages of setting up its own center - at this
time looking for a suitable site. The long and the short of it is that there
was no bonds. Sure we all know each other, lots of friendships. But we were
not (and still are not) a People.
The huge influx of migrant workers did a lot to capture attention. It was
exciting. It was wonderful! Here was proof that entry by troops was *just
around the corner!* one person would say, only to be countered by another
*This IS entry by troops!* All this was mixed up with Citadel being there.
Roughly twenty lovely, dedicated, excited youth. How could people resist? A
lot of good musical talent too.
But after that big rush of believers it really calmed down. Enrollments
dropped after the first four or five months. Citadel moved on. Woodburn began
to lose its luster. That was just at the time that they neded the most help.
The next summer saw Citadel going the usual route of American projects:
Bigger! Bolder! Now with new Power Crystals! We'll have ten teams (even
though we can barely afford and support one - on the evidence of the year
before.) This drew a lot of attention from Woodburn too. This even tho one
of the teams was stationed there.
The *fault* does not lay in any one person. It doesn't exist in any
committee. There is not necessarily any gross error to be found in various
plans, though surely errors exist as they do in any plan great or small.
Nor is it fated. The fault dear friends in not in our stars . . . nor
inherently because of ourselves . . .
Woodburn is a house built without a foundation. When it started to wobble
this way and that a good number of brave and dedicated souls tried to shore
up the walls, throw up more supports etc. It has held together, but not well.
The excitment of the barn raising has long faded and as chronic Americans
(first) we have all run off to take care of our own personal lives or journey
off to Russia or some other exciting location, justifying every mile we put
between the last project and the thrill that lies over that next horizon.
And until we begin to address those issues, such as we are just starting
to here on Talisman and far more importantly across the country, we will see
more Woodburns. We so far lack the cement, the grit, to make a firm
foundation.
Because we don't know why we are here . . .
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 16:54:05 EST
Subject: when it snows....
Dear folks,
Well, we in the Southeast aren't used to this snow and ice and
everything with it that's not so nice. Meaning, I fell on
my (already in a bad shape) back walking on ice coming to work. It's
been a few hours
and I am beginning to feel the pain when I am sitting, standing or
walking.
I work only on weekends to open and close this computing lab, so
I have no choice but stay around. Why am I saying this? Definately
not to get Saman ticked off! I have a great suspicion that I will be
staying in bed for awhile; thus, no projects will be worked on
including the homepage. If, anyone has more space than this
little student with 3.5 meg. on student account, please feel free
to start a talisman homepage and I will forward those pictures
either by scanning them to you or by snail mail, later. I saw
someone's homepage who works at the Na-Ba-Ce who says he is not a
Baha'i and
he had some nice things to say about talisman. I cannot recall
where I saw it. Perhaps you can browse through Baha'i wwww.
When, things are in better shape, I'll begin HOMEPAGE, but no idea
when that'll be. In the meantime, I'll see y'all later. Yes! I said I
see, any questions?
No ideas on football my son always gets a kick out
of me watching with him and asking "why are they whispering?"
now, why in the world that guy is running?
The only thing I know about is soccer and basketball, that's it.
Yes, also a bit about golf as a golf widow of my ex-husband.
bye now,
quanta
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: language, departures
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 15:14:24 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Linda -
You wrote:
L >Dear Mark, I hope that you will take Ahang's comments seriously about
L >restrictions on the list. It is apparent that you have felt
L >discomfort with the openness of the discussions on Talisman and I
L >presume that this is the main reason for starting your own list.
L >However, I don't know what can be gained intellectually by stifling
L >the type of discourse that goes on. By allowing the listowner the
L >amount of leeway you are giving yourself to determine the
L >"appropriateness" of comments certainly gives you a great deal of
L >power. I don't see where this is in comformity with Baha'i principles
L >at all.
I don't know what makes you feel that I am uncomfortable with the
openness on Talisman. Had that been the case, Linda, I would have left
the list a long time ago. By the same token, I do not want to create a
duplicate of Talisman either. And, inevitably, an Internet list will, to
some extent, reflect the views and temperment of its owner.
I will say that I have not *always agreed* with the level of
openness that I have sometimes seen on Talisman, and with what I see as
the incorrect identification of Baha'i principles with utilitarianism. I
strongly objected when one of the list members brought up details of
someone that was allegedly deprived of his administrative rights, and I
have never agreed with many the postings criticizing the review process.
However, I would not call it discomfort. Cooking makes me uncomfortable,
so I eat out. I like Talisman, and I look forward to reading the
postings. As I have said before, the only thing which has really made me
uncomfortable is the name-calling.
I am definitely not seeking "a great deal of power," as you say. My
only desire, in starting the Baha'i Studies list, is to be of service to
the online Baha'i community.
Warm regards to you,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Past President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Director, Institute for Integral Reality [sm] Owner, Baha'i Studies List *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Office: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 Home: 913/768-4244 Fax: 913/469-4409 *
*Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) UWG94A (Prodigy) *
*mfoster@tyrell.net mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us (Baha'i List Co-Moderator) *
*72642,3105 (Staff, 3 CompuServe Religion Fora, incl. Baha'i Section Leader) *
*Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Baha'i Staff) *
*Home Pages: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality *
* http://home.aol.com/Realityman (Note: The Web is Case-Sensitive)*
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
___
* UniQWK #2141* The manifested Unity of God emanates in His creation's diversity
=END=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 11:00:58 +1200
To: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: language, departures
Talismans,
I am pleased that Linda has acknowledged Mark's Baha'i Studies
list and felt free to offer advice. It is good to see inter-list
communication, and I hope this continues.
Talisman is like an addiction, as Quanta and others have pointed out. Over
many months it has been the scene of many battles royal (and common), and
I really believe there has been growth/maturation. It is now a better
place, IMV. If that is so, what place is there in the market for another
list with similar scholarly aims? Who knows. We'll just have to wait and
see.
The key difference difference in principle between the two lists is that
one (Talisman) is more flexible than the other regarding criticisms of the
central figures and institutions the Faith. Much of Talismanian discourse
has been devoted to issues arising from this flexibility. I have often
felt that when we have dealt with these issues, then perhaps we can start
getting down to really important matters, like revolutionising world
thought. However, regardless of the difficulties I have experienced on
Talisman, I love the list, and have developed genuine respect and affection
for John and Linda, and for the wide array of contributors.
I have subscribed to both lists, and I think it would be nice if others did
the same, if only to see how discourse works under different conditions. I
do not see any point in seeing the lists as rivals. Afterall, we are all
motivated by a common purpose, are we not?
So: best wishes to BOTH Talisman AND Baha'i Studies. And all other Baha'i
lists also.
Robert.
=END=
From: Dcorbett@aol.com
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 17:21:03 -0500
To: DAWNLIQU@fllab.chass.ncsu.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: when it snows....
In a message dated 96-01-14 16:56:23 EST, DAWNLIQU@fllab.chass.ncsu.edu
(QUANTA DAWNLIGHT) writes:
>Well, we in the Southeast aren't used to this snow and ice and
>everything with it that's not so nice. Meaning, I fell on
>my (already in a bad shape) back walking on ice coming to work. It's
>been a few hours
>and I am beginning to feel the pain when I am sitting, standing or
>walking.
>I work only on weekends to open and close this computing lab, so
>I have no choice but stay around. Why am I saying this? Definately
>not to get Saman ticked off! I have a great suspicion that I will be
>staying in bed for awhile; thus, no projects will be worked on
>including the homepage. If, anyone has more space than this
>little student with 3.5 meg. on student account, please feel free
>to start a talisman homepage and I will forward those pictures
>either by scanning them to you or by snail mail, later. I saw
>someone's homepage who works at the Na-Ba-Ce who says he is not a
>Baha'i and
>he had some nice things to say about talisman. I cannot recall
>where I saw it. Perhaps you can browse through Baha'i wwww.
>When, things are in better shape, I'll begin HOMEPAGE, but no idea
>when that'll be. In the meantime, I'll see y'all later. Yes! I said I
>see, any questions?
>bye now,
>quanta
Hi... Quanta... I'd be happy to create a Talisman homepage.. Perhaps you
can assist me with what you have done so far.... and others can assist me
with what they would like to see on the page(s).
I am new to the list...
I am a Baha'i of almost 8 years, declared in Camarillo, California, now in N.
Virginia. I am employed by America Online and am on here to deepen further
in the Faith.
=END=
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 15:09:58 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Bosch Advanced Academy student notes ,The Covenant ,
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismanians
The third part of Scott Phelps notes .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=0Dok =
of the Covenant. It's probably the fourth most important book of
Baha'u'llah. Baha'is in general do not
study it. Without a grasp of it, understanding the Master's Will and
Testament is difficult The Bab left
Covenant and History (Dec. 28)
=0D
Historical Overview
The first thing is to understand the inner significance of the Boa
short directive to appoint Yahya as
custodian. Of course the Bab named him Azal, one of His mirrors, the
next level below Letters of the
Living.
Baha'u'llah was not the eldest son. His mother had 3 children
before marrying Baha'u'llah's
father. His father later married one of these daughters to his
brother. =
So at one time Baha'u'llah's brother-in-law was his uncle. Yahya's
(Azal's) mother was a concubine.
=
Studying the family gives some insight into the difficulty Persians
have separating family and religion.
Baha'u'llah's youngest sister,Nisa Khanum, could be referred to by Him
in the Gleanings as lost beneath
the dust of Teheran. She is deserving of much more of the credit for
getting him released from prison
She brought money to the Shah, etc. Declaration of Baha'u'llah in
Baghdad in 1863 was a very private
affair. The Babi community continued after 1863. In August 1852 to
December 1852 He was in the
Black Pit, after which He had a month to leave. Baha'u'llah's full
brother, Aqa Kalim, gave Him all of
his wealth. This is how they were able to sustain the family. He also
established a bakery in Baghdad=
and fed the poor. He actually worked there and helped with the
housework, too. There's no such thing
as women's work and men's work. He loved cakes. 'Abdu'l-Baha's mother
baked Him a cake,=
but she'd never done it and used salt instead of sugar.
The great separation with Yahya occurred in about 1866 in
Adrianople This is the point at
which the Baha'i Faith actually begins. Baha'u'llah made the formal
announcement that He was Him
Whom God Would Make Manifest. He sent out emissaries to Persian and
Iraq to announce this. =
Within 24 hrs. Azal made a similar announcement. There were then 3
groups
: 1. The Azalis
2. The Baha'is
3. Babis.
Azalis and Babis are still around. They are primarily family, and
there are
perhaps a thousand or two of them. They are really a sect of Islam.
There was one American Azali
from New York, Auguste Steinstrand (?) who used to send out letters to
the Baha'is calling them back. =
There was a British woman portrait artist, Edith Barry, who had
visited Azal in Cyprus and became
a follower. She wrote to E. G. Browne and said how wonderful that she
had met the Bab!
Apparently her portrait of him was sent to Browne but Browne's son
never =
found it. Derek thinks this may indicate that Browne disposed of it,
indicating his true feelings about
Azal. Some Baha'is have said Browne was an Azali.
Azal knew that there would be an attempt on the Shah and went into the
mountains in Mazindaran, , waiting for it to occur. He always did the
political thing,
seeking power. . Other terrible things Azal did: 1. He married the
widow (second wife) of the Bab,
Fatimih, and then divorced her within a month, in effect disgracing her
and the Bab's memory by
treating her like a temporary wife. He then married her to Siyyid
Isfahani;
2. He had Dayyan, a believer who had accepted Baha'u'llah before 1863
and a paternal cousin of the
Bab; killed.
Baha'u'llah was sent to Akka, and Azal was sent to Cyprus. So all
the plans and scheming of
Azal really backfired . Cyprus was harder to get to than Akka. At
least you could go overland
to Akka from Persia. Hence Azal was consigned to oblivion.
With the revealing of the Aqdas, all the Babi laws were obsolete.
Baha'u'llah left signs of His
desires for succession. There was one reference in the Aqdas and
apparently one in the Hidden
Words. No one knows when the Book of the Covenant was actually
written, during the last part of
His life. With the Tablet of the Branch, the stage was set for
'Abdu'l-Baha.
The Book of the Covenant (The Will and Testament of Baha'u'llah)
The Kitab-i-Ahd is unique. It sets out what should have happened
in
prior religions. Every believer can read for themselves and come to
their
own conclusions. In the book, Baha'u'llah preserves the first
prohibition on
war in religious history. It is divin=ely preserved from annulment.
It is written in
His own hand.
In the first paragraph, the reference to the Qur'an is to the
surih =
of the Slanderer, surih 104 in the Penguin translation. Apparently the
terrible
effect is on the heart is for people who combine backbiting and
hoarding of wealth.
In the second paragraph, "God hath forgiven what is past" is a very
important quote. This is addressed to all the peoples of the world
and applies to a great many things. Personal grudges are not
acceptable because God hath forgiven it. Past racial injustices, etc.
econd paragraph
also contains the purpose of Baha'u'llah's life and Revelation. The
paragraph ends
with a Word about the station of a true man. Incredibly high. I think
most don't
appreciate their worth, the incredible preciousnessof a human soul.
All the atoms
in the universe were created for our training.
The third paragraph: "His garment" means His teachings. The
first sentence gives the
definition of a Baha'i. It is not who has signed a card. "Every
receptve soul who hath in
this Day
inhaled the fragrance of His garment and hath, with a pure heart, set
his face towards the
all-glorious Horizon is reckoned among the people of Baha in the
Crimson Book."
The Faith is for all ofmankind. The U. S. Baha'i Publishing Trust has
copyrighted
most of the Writings. OneWorld had printed something without
permission. It went to the
House of Justice.
The House said something like how can we own something that isn't ours
in the first place? It is
for all of humanity, not just the Baha'is. The House said it's good to
have a copyright in case someone
tries to misuse the Writings.
The fourth paragraph: The second sentence is a directive against
argument or conflict in
consultation. Third sentence says Baha'u'llah has already revealed the
mans for solving mankind's
problems. There is no need to look elsewhere. =
The fifth paragraph is a reference to obedience to government, but no
divine nature of kings
is indicated. He gives them rulership of the earth; the hearts are for
God
The sixth paragraph is our commitment to peace. Very strong
statement:
"divinely preservedfrom annulment." There can never be a Baha'i war.
Extremely important paragraph. The only religion previously which
hasn't been used to
declare war is Buddhism. =
The seventh paragraph: "rulers and learned." Learned is not just
those members of those
institutions of the Faith. It could be certain scholars or the
humblest of souls. Baha'u'llah says the two
eyes of mankind are the man of consummate wisdom and the seer of
insight.
Last sentence: if the rulers and learned are deepened in the Aqdas,
their words will shine.
The eighth: quite a mysterious paragraph. What is this "mighty
force, . . . consummate power
. . concealed in the world of being." It seems to be a reference to
the Covenant (the Axis of the
Oneness of Humanity). It seems to anticipate Muhammad-Ali and the
other =
brothers havingproblems with Baha'u'llah's appointment of
'Abdu'l-Baha. We were robbed
of much when these other brothers broke the Covenant. They were very
talented.
Imagine what could have been done with fou sons of Baha'u'llah
unified.
'Abdu'l-Baha could have circled the globe. =We could have the
commentaries of the others, etc. Baha'u'llah had given Muhammad-Ali
the
gift of eloquence.
The ninth: the Master was known as "The Most Mighty Branch." He
didn't
take the title of 'Abdu'l-Baha until 1894, in response to claims that
he was trying to set
himself as a Manifestation of God. Hence the ['Abdu'l-Baha] added to
the text after
"Most Mighty Branch" and "Most GreatBranch." There was no argument
when this Will was read nine days after Baha'u'llah's passing.
Muhammad-Ali's mother is even reputed to have said "that's the way it
should be;
the eldest son should be higher .
The tenth: this is why 'Abdu'l-Baha couldn't give his brothers any of
the Huququ'llah
or anymoney coming in. They were supposed to go and earn their own
living. Ev=
en 'Abdu'l-Baha had a profession. He was a mat-maker. Muhammad-Ali
was a calligrapher.
The custom in Islam had beenthat the family of the Prophet received a
part of the
monies coming in. This meant they couldn't go and seize people's
property.
Followers of Muhammad-Ali were called Behaists (pronounced
Behooists) in the West . In 1990 there was about five of them still
left in Kenosha, =
Wisconsin. There had been quite a lot of them there and in Chicago.
Shu'u'llah,
Muhammad-Ali's son , and Khayru'llah came there .
The eleventh: quite a challenge to the Aghsan and the Afnan.
They weren't going to get any money from the Faith, but they were
supposed to be
exemplars of character and deeds.
The twelfth: Baha'u'llah even gives the prescription for the
conten=
tion He knew was to follow. Just say "all things are of God." It is
"like water for quenchin
the fire of hate and enmity which smouldereth within the hearts and
breasts of men. By this single
utterance contending peoples and kindreds will attain the light of true
unity."
Derek would argue that this is the single most important
statement in the Writings. You have to have certitude to say this.
This
is the solution to our problems.
The thirteenth: The courtesy and regard you should show the
Aghsan =
is the starting point for serving the whole world. This paragraph
seems to me to
be the other side of the direction to the Aghsan to be exemplars: the
people's responsibility to show
respect to them.
The last: seems to say "okay, what you need (the fulfiilment of
God's Covenant to provide
continued guidance) has been given to you in this tablet. Heed it." =
In summary, this tablet contains, by paragraph number,
=2E 1. A warning about riches.
2. The purpose of Baha'u'llah.
2. A forgiveness of all things past.
2. The station of a true man (like a universe)
3. The definition of a Baha'i.
4. The purpose of religion.
4. The statement that the Writings are the only necessary source
to=
solve world's problems.
5. The great station of kings.
6. The prohibition against conflict and contention, interpreted
by =
Derek by extension as a
prohibition of Baha'i war.
7. The station of the rulers and learned of the Baha'is. Also
the =
requirement for them to
know the Aqdas.
8. The power of the Covenant.
9. The line of succession and the stations of 'Abdu'l-Baha and
Muha=
mmad-Ali.
10. The edict that the family of Baha'u'llah has no rights over
the=
property of others.
11. The exhortation for the family of Baha'u'llah to be exemplars
f=
or mankind.
12. The prescription for solving conflict: the saying of "All
thing=
s are of God."
13. The requirement of courtesy and service to the Holy Family
and =
to all mankind.
A digression: The Bible says Jesus was beneath the Earth for 3
days=
and 3 nights. Hence He
couldn't have died on Good Friday at 3:00 P. M. and resurrected before
su=
nrise on Easter Sunday. =
Apparently this is in Mathew. This is a good contradiction to point
out =
after you have gotten some
fundamentalist to agree that they will only accept the literal words of
t=
he Bible. Of course we
understand that His "body" was His teachings, and they weren't
resurrecte=
d until the Mary Magdalene
had gathered the apostles back together.
=0D
The Will and Testament of 'Abdu'l-Baha
=
Background
Most Baha'is don't know what the Kitab-i-Ahd is, but they do know
of
the Will and Testament of 'Abdu'l-Baha because we used to require
people to read it
before someone could become a Baha'i. =
In 1971 or 1972 the House finally said you don't have to teach someone
the W and T before
but after they become a Baha'i.
Within 3 weeks of the reading of Baha'u'llah's Will and Testament,
the Covenant-breaking
started. By 1894, Abbas Effendi adopted the title 'Abdu'l-Baha in
response to claims
he was claiming to be a Manifestation of God.
In 1885 the first marriage between the Aghsan and the Afnan occurred
between Siyyid Ali-Afnan and
Foroughi Khanum, Baha'u'llah's daughter. She was the only daughter of
Golah Khanum=
, Baha'u'llah's third wife from Kashan. One story is that her husband
was martyred and came to Baghdad
with her brother andBaha'u'llah took her under his household and in
effect married her out of=
respect. She did have relations in Kashan so it may have been an
arranged marriage. They had
four sons.
'Abdu'l-Bahahad four surviving daughters. Diayyih Khanum was his
eldest daughter, the mother of=
Shoghi Effendi. =
In this environment of Covenant-breaking, 'Abdu'l-Baha wrote the
Wil and Testament , between
1901 and 1908. They are three separate wills. It means that Shoghi
Effendi received his station when
he was four years old! 'Abdu'l-Baha wrapped the original Kitab-i-Ahd
with the t=
hree wills, a symbol of their linkage. Shoghi Effendi had two sisters
and two brothers. He was the
eldest.
The brothers who were against 'Abdu'l-Baha were Muhammad-Ali,
Badi'ullah
and Dia'ullah. Although Covenant-breakers, they were still in the
house, hanging around,
etc. First they went after the Baha'i community. But the Hands in
Iran
(4 appointed by Baha'u'llah) kept the community together. The
believers had the Kitab-i-Ahd.
Then they took the other route of politics, of getting the
Ottoman Empire to send two committees of inquiry to investigate
the charges that 'Abdu'l-Baha was building a fortress, etc. They
mortgaged the Mansion to
use the money to entertain officials, etc.
We don't know the order the wills were written .
The Will and Testament (with Paragraph numbers)
1. Praise to Baha'u'llah. Thanks to him for writing a Will; it
preserved the Cause.
2. Reference to Shoghi Effendi. "offshoots of the Tree of
Hol=
iness" family of Baha'u'llah.
"twigs of the Celestial Tree" family of the Bab. "Great Dividing"
Adrianople Baha'u'llah's public
announcement led to splitting into 3 groups. Story of Guardian trying
to=
explain to Ali-Kuli Khan the
difference between the station of himself and the Master, trying to
lower=
expectations. Khan's wife
later said that Khan said it reminded him of the Master trying to
explain
to him after the passing of
Baha'u'llah.
3. The four greatest things: protection, preservation,
safeguarding=
and service of the Cause. =
10,000 martyrs for the Cause. Regarding the difference between these
kin=
ds of figures of 10,000 and
20,000 and the number of names recorded: we have to realize that, like
today,
we only report thenotable deaths of famous or unique people.
The truth is we don't know.
Here is the reasons we should do this: the 10,000 martyrs, the Bab,
the sufferings of Baha'u'llah: the bastinado, the chains
in the Siyah Chal weighed almost as much as He did. Derek then drew a
diagram s=
howing that the Siyah
Chal was an old drain away under an old public bath. Derek visited it.
"eclipsed in splendor" His retirement to Sulaymaniyyih. About 15-18
yrs. ago
a locked room was discovered in an old caravanserai. It was preserved
as a shrine
to the holy man who used to visit it, Dervish Mohammed
(this was the name taken by Baha'u'llah). When opened by some Baha'is,
they found Writings of Baha'u'llah.
The Four Valleys were revealed for the people in this area.
"four times banished from city to city": if you count just how many
times they had to
move in Adrianople, it was quite a lot.
4. When Baha'u'llah's father died, Yahya was about 7 or 8.
Baha'u'llah,
then about 22, and Navvab raised Him as their own son. Despite this,
He never
showed any gratitude and even poisoned Him and hired people to kill
Him.
5. "falsified the Holy Text": Muhammad-Ali was a master
calligraph=
er and could do this and make it look real. The lamenting of the
Concourse
was because his actions caused them to be unused. and the Cause
affected in all the worlds of God
They were waiting to assist the spread of the Faith. One of the losses
t=
hat he caused was the possible openallegiance of E. G. Browne. After
his emotional lectures on the
Faith, he drew back because of the trouble stirred up by the
Covenant-breakers. Every Covenant-
breaker wrote to Browne with their absurd and terrible claims.
Derek was the first to read this private correspondence file in 1992.
Browne would
write on them "nonsense etc" His private correspondence indicates he
was perplexed
by the change in the community from all love and harmony to chaos with
the
passing of Baha'u'llah. =
Derek met with his son < Sir Patrick Browne >who indicated that his
father's Babi records had been =
available to be donated to the Baha'is.if he and his brother had known
; we had archives etc .
Baha'u'llah's quote about him < Muhammed-Ali > was when He upbraided
him for fal=
sifying the Text. "condemned to utter ruin": he died in the 1930s. His
associate, Majdin (=
?), who married Baha'u'llah's daughter, lived to about 100, destitute
and stroke- ridden . All he could
do was see the Faith grow, looking out the window of near the Mansion,
and use his one working hand
to sign over the deeds of the property back to the Guardian. The
unique thing about the Faith is that the
sects always die out, unlike for example, some divisions of the Mormons
which have a million members!
We are the Religion of failed schisms!
6. Badi'u'llah, the youngest son of Baha'u'llah, who came back to
the Faith twice,
the first time apparently with sincerity. His gift to the Faith is
that Baha'u'llah
wrote that wonderful tablet,
"Be generous in prosperity and thankful in adversity. . ." to him. He
appare=
ntly had some talent, but ended his days as a porter on the docks in
Haifa. His daughter
became an Arab terrorist against the Britishmandate and went to jail.
Badi'u'llah's report on
Muhammad-Ali is in part two of his Epistle to the World. It shows his
comprehension
of his Father's Revelation.
7. The reference to the Committee of Investigation allows us to
date very
accurately the writing of Part One of the Will. The Committee of
Investigation
formed because of the slanderous letter of the Covenant-Breakers came
and interviewed the
Covenant-Breakers to explain the document. They didn't interview
'Abdu'l-Baha!
8. Here the document begins to tell us as well how to live.
"forbidden to utter slander, are
commanded to show forth peace and amity, are exhorted to rectitude of
conduct . . . We must obey
and be the well-wishers of the governments of the land . . ." Loyal to
just kings, etc.
9. With enough money, you can always hire someone to kill
someone.
10. The first of 9 prayers in the W&T, not found anywhere else.
11. In short, decisive words, 'Abdu'l-Baha cuts off Muhammad-Ali
as
a Covenant-Breaker. This meant that Shoghi Effendi did not have to give
him the station
mentioned in the Kitab-i-Ahd
12. Famous prayer, included on pp. 135-136 of Baha'i Prayers.
13. This tells us the things we should do regarding teaching.
The
document has now switchedfrom reporting the bad things that happened
to move forward. If we'd done these things, there would
probably be 60 or 600 million believers, rather than 6 million. This
was
written before the Tablets ofthe Divine Plan.
14. Here is the famous statement about teaching being the most
impo=
rtant of all things. "Teaching the Cause is of utmost importance for it
is the head corner-sto=
ne of the foundation itself."
15. Example of the disciples of Christ: how we should be.
16. Here is the clear assigning of the Guardianship to Shoghi
Effendi.
His purpose as expounder of the words of God is stated, and the
principle
of successorship to him is given ("first-born of his lineal
descendents.")
17. This paragraph makes it impossible to go against the Guardian
or
the House of Justice. =
Here also is the first reference to how the House of Justice was to be
el=
ected. =
18. Necessary qualities of a successor to Shoghi Effendi. The
fact=
that there was none appointed is faithful to this because there were
none
that qualified. Baha'is were so used to the ideaof a living Guardian
that
this became an albatross around the Faith's neck. They were still a
religion
around a charismatic figure. Hands were repeating this before his
passing,
this idea of needing a living Guardian. He had clearly been setting
his affairs in order.
He had transferred the properties to thename of the Israeli branches
of the NSAs, he had appointed the new contingents of Hands.
19. Riveted the Hands' attention after the passing of the
Guardian.=
This is why we had the Custodians.
friends shouldsay let's go out and teach. With "caution and
prudence."
=
20. Based on this paragraph, the House concluded they could not
appoint Hands.
This passage also applies to what Mason Remey did, he sought division.
Also interesting is that they wereunder the Guardian's shadow and
command.
They ceased to have a will. One quality that most had was humility.
21. The obligations of the Hands.
22. This paragraph is why all the Custodians could do was follow
th=
e Ten Year Crusade; they were "under the direction of the Guardian . .
." Also interesting is that the Hands are responsible to
guide "all the peoples of the world," not just the Baha'is. This seems
to be one
difference between the Hands and the Counsellors, the latter being
chiefly concerned with
the education of the Baha'is
23. 'Abdu'l-Baha takes the statement from the Kitab-i-Ahd about the
prohibition againstconflict and contention and adds another statement
"Every aggressor deprives himself of God's grace."
The exhortations about love which follow go back to Baha'u'llah's
statement about
God having forgiven all that is past. Derek's favorite Baha'i
statement:
"For Universality is of God and all limitations earthly."
This is why when I try to put limitations on meanings or a definiteness
to a certain
meaning, Derek says well, it could be that or . . . =
24. Attributes we should acquire.
25. NSAs established. The "government" may be the local
government=
, the local Houses of
Justice. It may be the Supreme Tribunal.
26. Prayer found on p. ? of Baha'i Prayers. The =
27. Huququ'llah. There is other scriptural bases for the House
of =
Justice assuming the role of acceptance, control and distribution of
Huquq.
28. Be obedience to just kings. They have a high station.
The comment the Master made about the dampness appears to be just
a =
comment.
Part II and III Highlights
Page 19: Our declaration of faith is contained here, our beliefs
ab=
out the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
Page 20: The only country mentioned in the W&T is England.
Baha'i Trivia:
the only other place besides Haifa where the House of Justice has met
is in the
British Hazratu'l-Quds at 27 Rutland Gate. After the election, the
members were there
for the World Congress and they needed a place to meet. The House has
ruled that
this is why the British Community may not sell this site.
Regarding shunning the Covenant-Breakers, this is why we are the
rel=
igion of failed schisms.
Page 24: The friends arose and wrote against the writings of
Muhamm=
ad-Ali in 70 treatises.
Page 25: The Master tells us if a meeting or person is hindering
teaching,
the Greatest gift is the gift of Teaching .
--PART.BOUNDARY.0.15913.mail04.mail.aol.com.820444950--
=END=
From: Stephen Bedingfield
Subject: Question on "Say: God sufficeth..."
To: talisman@indiana.edu (Talisman)
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 16:24:38 MST
Friends, I am making the assumption that the prayer "Say: God sufficeth..."
printed in *Selections from the Writing of the Bab*, p.123 is an updated
translation of the prayer found in *Baha'i Prayers*, US BPT, p.29. Is this
correct?
Warmly, stephen
--
Stephen Bedingfield | "We desire but
Box 115, Cambridge Bay NT X0E 0C0 | the good of the world and
Canada (403) 983-2123 | the happiness of the nations"
email: sbedin@inukshuk.gov.nt.ca | - Baha'u'llah
=END=
From: l.droege@genie.geis.com
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 96 23:05:00 UTC 0000
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: WWI & WWII (cleaned up)
Obviously GEnie, my slightly clunky online service, is still not
functioning with its usual semi-efficiency! Sincere apologies for
the garbled nature of my last post; evidently the mail program has
forgotten how to backspace and sent my post with all its typos
intact. So, typing very carefully this time, I'll repeat:
George,
There is of course Baha'u'llah's warning in His Tablet to Kaiser
Wilhelm I: "O banks of the Rhine! We have seen you covered with gore,
inasmuch as the swords of retribution were drawn against you; and you
shall have another turn. And We hear the lamentations of Berlin, though
she be today in conspicuous glory." (_Proclamation of Baha'u'llah_, p.39)
If I remember correctly, enemies of the Faith in Iran during WWI
advertised this statement widely as a _false_ prophecy while Germany was
doing well, and were pretty embarrassed when the tide turned.
There are also lots of pre-WWI quotes from 'Abdu'l-Baha, particularly
in _Promulgation of Universal Peace_ (look in the index under "prophecies
and warnings"). One of my favorites is on p.317: "Europe is a storehouse
of exl(oops) explosives awaiting a spark. All the European nations are
on edge, and a single flame will set on fire the whole of that
continent." (from a speech in Montreal on Sept. 5, 1912)
For WWII, check the index of anything by Shoghi Effendi. There's plenty.
Re the NAACP: it was founded in 1909 by an assortment of concerned people,
both black and white. One of the co-founders & early leaders was W>(oops)
W.E.B. DuBois, a renowned black activist and founding member of the
Niagara Movement. I found this info in Compton's Encyclopedia under
"Black Americans" but it should be in any other decent encyclopedia and
possibly some dictionaries as well.
OK! Any weird glyphs or other nonsense not immediately followed by "oops"
in parentheses is GEnie's fault and not mine. Incidentally I ame (OOPS!)
I am having to access Genie through a different system, since their
regular phone number isn't wr(oops) working either. I'd swith ch(oops)
switch to AOL but am waiting for _their_ email problems to resolve.
Thanx and Sorry 'bout that...
Leigh
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 18:33:50 EST
Subject: homepage volunteers
Dear folks,
dcorbett and R. Logan volunteered to do homepage.
Linda and John may give them some ideas. I have
"0" info. at this point. Good luck! Y'all be nice now :-)
And offer some prayers for me :-( Thanks. ;-)
When it snows, it pours
love,
quanta (^.^)
p.s. Mr./Ms? Corbett or R. Logan, would you like
for me to send the pictures by snail mail? If you
do please send me you mailing address. Thanks.
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 15:40:59 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: bahai-st@jcccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us
Subject: New Zealand Conference
Dear Talismans and Baha'i st friends,
Here is a post from intrepid pioneer to Japan Bruce Handel, who is reporting
via eworld on his Powerbook on the New Zealand conference taking place in
Auckland now through the 16th. His comment about the warmth and loving
consultative style of the Maoris echos posts from other New Zealanders.
The power brought to all aspects of the Faith by racial/cultural diversity
may well be indispensible for successful Entry by Troops
Best,
Sandy
(message to Baha'is of Japan from Bruce Handel)
Dear Friends,
Nature on North Island (will go south next time) was incredible. Found out
what a Georgie Pie was, too. Got some much needed exercise, did some
white-water rafting, mountain biking, and hiking/camping/swimming.
Conference was lovely:
All the different Pacific Islanders performed, including a great choir
conducted by Tom Price (yoroshiku to Mike Higgins), and Dash Crofts sang
"Summer Breeze", etc. YOW performed, and we discovered some wonderful
talents from the Maori people! Natural oraters, move consultation to new
heights!
Found another challenging place to try Teaching: The Cook Islands, home to
18,000 with a total Baha'i population of 50. Hope to visit there soon.
Learned lots from Maori influence and the wisdom of the Kiwi Baha'is:
1)Use song to break-up monotony of speeches at an event. Whenever the Maori
present an idea, they always follow up with music, giving you a chance to
digest what's been said. Totally disarming!
2) Always have children present at the Feasts and gatherings, so that the
whole family can attend. Kids pick up on the vibes, and if we're doing it
right, they're happy. When the spirit is wrong, they cry. Attended overnight
meetings, on the Moari's marae (meeting houses) in which people just
naturally tuned in or out and then mothers or fathers and children fell
asleep, allowing ideas to flow naturally, and new threads to begin. We'll
host an event in this style, for you to see what it's like). Great ideas from
Spiritual Axis!!
2) Arrange meetings so that all are seated in a circle (just confirmed what
we knew, following a rather tense Feast in Auckland). This is to allow
quieter people a chance to express themselves. Less confrontational.
3) Locate the National Office in a rural setting, allowing the beauty to
inspire a spiritual attitude.Baha'i Weddings, Conventions, meetings, and
general work all greatly effected by environment, could be held there
joyously. Wish I'd taken a digital photo for ya, but I didn't bring my gear
to the Center. There were sheep and horses outside on the pastures
surrounding the beautiful dark-wooden Nat Off. in Henderson, which is about a
20 minute drive from downtown Auckland. Such beauty, such dignity, such
joy!! Would like to see ours built on the temple land we've already got, with
Yen proceeds from sale of Shinjuku Center. Could imagine a whole new Baha'i
life with young new faces volunteering to staff the new office, were it
anything like the one here!! Even if it weren't "convenient", ten minutes at
this kind of place produce more warmth than ten years in the cramped, dark,
insignificant location beneath the neon in Shinjuku. Hospitality is
impossible there, right? What kind of Baha'i life is that?
Picked up some new words in the New Zealand language: the meanings are in ().
Frinns (friends)
Paych (peach)
Waist (west)
Drimes (dreams)
Ja-pain (the country where WE live)
Much love to you all,
Brouse (rhymns with house)
=END=
From: Dcorbett@aol.com
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 19:31:12 -0500
To: DAWNLIQU@fllab.chass.ncsu.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: homepage volunteers
In a message dated 96-01-14 18:35:07 EST, DAWNLIQU@fllab.chass.ncsu.edu
(QUANTA DAWNLIGHT) writes:
>Dear folks,
>
>dcorbett and R. Logan volunteered to do homepage.
>Linda and John may give them some ideas. I have
>"0" info. at this point. Good luck! Y'all be nice now :-)
>And offer some prayers for me :-( Thanks. ;-)
>When it snows, it pours
>
>love,
>quanta (^.^)
>
>p.s. Mr./Ms? Corbett or R. Logan, would you like
>for me to send the pictures by snail mail? If you
>do please send me you mailing address. Thanks.
>
>
It is Dan Corbett... Hmm... I do not have digitizing capabilities, but I
could send them to PicturePlace on AOL, or go to Kinkos to get them
developed.. Yes. Please send me the pictures:
Daniel Corbett
3210 Gemstone Court
Oakton, VA 22124
Thanks,
- Dan
=END=
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 18:46:29 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: homepage volunteers
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT" ,
"Talisman"
I'm not certain what these pictures are. Are you talking about graphic's?
I Just don't know what you have in mind or how far the project has
proceeded.
If dcorbett wants to do it I would defer to that person as I already
maintain a page for Baha'is.
I saw myself more as an emergency person. But I see there is someone to
handle it with admirable
experience.
Richard
>Dear folks,
>
>dcorbett and R. Logan volunteered to do homepage.
>Linda and John may give them some ideas. I have
>"0" info. at this point. Good luck! Y'all be nice now :-)
>And offer some prayers for me :-( Thanks. ;-)
>When it snows, it pours
>
>love,
>quanta (^.^)
>
>p.s. Mr./Ms? Corbett or R. Logan, would you like
>for me to send the pictures by snail mail? If you
>do please send me you mailing address. Thanks.
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: rstockman@usbnc.org
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Re: maturity, collective centre, HOW
Date: 14 Jan 1996 18:09:51 GMT
> I have seen
> non-Baha'is rush in and pray their hearts out (obviously after a
> terrible personal trauma).
Rob -
One of my contacts, after graduating from Drake, took a job in Chicago as a
financial analyst technician. It was a very high pressure job. He would go
by the House of Worship on the way home from work. After about 3 months, he
started stopping just about every night to sit in the gardens and relax
before actually going home. He never went inside, never asked about the
Faith. He just knew that this was a very relaxing place, and used it. Even
during the winter he would stop and if it was too nasty out, sit in his car.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 22:11:14 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: "Richard C. Logan"
Cc: Member1700@aol.com, Talisman
Subject: Re: Spheres of conferred infallibility
Richard:
It is fine with me if you wish to absolutize and reify some sort of
belief in an supernatural "infallibility" that is mysterious and ineffable.
However, for me to adopt your point of view is impossible, both
temperamentally and intellectually, and doing so would make it impossible
for me to carry out coherent scholarship on Baha'i subjects.
Different people want to use the Baha'i Faith for different things. Some
wish to make it their Rock of the Ages, immutable, absolutely true in
every particular, accepted unthinkingly and with implicit obedience to
every perceived nuance. And they need this Rock, and resent anyone else
not affirming it.
For me and other intellectuals, the Baha'i Faith is (in French
anthropologist Claude Levi-Strauss's words) "good to think with." I
don't believe in infallible propositions, nor could any meaning be
assigned to such a thing. I think you misread the Will and Testament of
the Master ( which is not technically translated or studied), both
because you reify some concepts and because you do not put in the context
of other texts, such as Ishraq 8 or WOB. But you're welcome to do so.
Up until now the "Rock of Ages" Baha'is have essentially had a veto over
the discourse of Baha'i intellectuals. This veto is now slipping away.
I am uninterested in having all Baha'is see the world as I see it; I
would appreciate it if the "Rock of Ages" folks would accept a similar
tolerance.
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 21:35:17 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Spheres of conferred infallibility
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Juan Cole"
Cc: , "Talisman"
Dear Juan,
Please don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying you're not entitled to
your understanding.
I'm pointing out that there maybe other things going on. You don't have
to believe that and I think its
exagerated to characterize it as anti-intellectual. If it irks you that
your postion has been shown not to be the
only postion "logically" so be it.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: 14 Jan 96 22:44:21 EST
From: "Mary K. Radpour" <73074.1221@compuserve.com>
To: Talisman
Subject: disappearing mail
Dear friends,
I sent a post on Wednesday morning to Talisman which has not yet appeared
on my postings, though it is now Sunday morning. Is that a normal delay?
Just wondering,
Mary K
=END=
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 16:39:56 -0600 (CST)
From: Mark Foster
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: New Bahai-Oriented Listserv
Talismanians -
Just a bit of advance notice. Starting tomorrow (if all goes well), I
will be managing a new Baha'i Studies listserv out of my place of work
(Johnson County Community College). Like Talisman, it will be a majordomo
list and use all the standard commands. A digest option will most likely
be available.
FWIW, I do not intend this list to compete with Talisman, which I enjoy a
great deal.
It will be called the Baha'i Studies list. Hopefully, like all of
the other Baha'i-oriented lists (the BCCA lists, Baha'i Intuition, etc.),
it will develop its own personality.
More information probably tomorrow.
Mark (Foster)
=END=
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 14:34:48 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Re . questions on Teaching
To: talisman@indiana.edu
To: burlb@bmi.net
My dear Friend Burl .
Always searching for greater meanings of truth ,
Yearning I realize for the fuller details of Linda's
sordid DC doings at Mensa with out the N in
December . Wonders about the Baha'i Youth at
Bosch last weekend . Well it was a College Club
Weekend , planning tea parties , toasting muffins on
the gasfire , quoting pages of meaningless verses and
drinking oodles of lovely hot cocoa . Seriously they
were seeing how they could forward the Cause of
God on their University Campus . Changing their
major was not a military term , I will give you my
major for 3 of your captains sort of thing . But
rather they were looking to see if they really should
keep taking a major subject like the stress factor of
golf balls or something a little more basic like
agriculture or industrial relations or education of
mental disadvantaged children etc .
I mentioned their love for the Institutions of the
Faith because that was posted also in regard to
Dallas . I do recall one or two slightly negative
comments on Talisman in regard to the NSA . Some
of the matters mentioned here from time to time
happened before some of the Youth were born .
Young people have a healthy disregard for what
they perceive as ancient social history .
So we are to have a four year plan . They are looking
forward to being part of it . We their elders can
either sit around and find fault with everything or
join in and transform ourselves and our communities
. The time to moan is over. It is time to get on with
God's work . Anybody want to join me ?
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 96 14:37:11 PST
Subject: More on forgiveness
To: Don Peden , 748-9178@mcimail.com, talisman@indiana.edu,
wog@poseidon.usnus.abb.com
Bev,
At the point when you talked about boundaries and the question of
when the wronged spouse forgives the betraying one.... I stayed with
that thought. And I combined it with the ideas of forgiveness as
process. And also with the idea that the practice of forgiveness is
a way to acquire humility. Here is what comes up. What do you think?
It's related to the question of how do you think through forgiveness.
And further, how do you forgive one who is unapologetic?
I think there is a fine line to be walked. It involves making
decisions about that other person, especially about their
limitations.
This is a hard move and feels like it risks arrogance -- again that
theme about humility -- and yet, is probably necessary.
I have choices about my attitude toward the one's who've wronged me.
I can be angry at him/her for not being more considerate. I can avoid
him/her to avoid being angry. Or I can accept his/her limitations and
love him/her for what there is to love, with full mindfullness of
their limitations.
To love someone and appreciate them and still be mindful constantly
of their limitations... so as not to be shocked and feel betrayed
when they come up, as they will, again and again.
This last is the practice of forgiveness.
So now we have forgiveness, not as an accomplishment, more than a
process, but, as a practice.
And like all practices, it involves being able to walk and ever finer
line with ever greater consciousness.
It involves accepting limitations and neither denying them nor
resenting the burden these limitations place on you. Humility
becoming Love becoming Service.
Well, there's probably more to be said, but for now, enough.
Thanks
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/11/96
Time: 14:37:11
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 96 12:36 PST
To: TLCULHANE@aol.com
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Questions on Teaching etc.
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
>Terry raised some questions; Burl offers answers:
> 1) Burl had indicated Congregatiobnalists were cool to ther idea of Bahais
>sharing space, The Jewish community was receptive to the idea of sharing
>space, one or more Bahais were not receptive to the idea of sharing space
>with Jews .
>
> What is the difference between the attitude expressed by the
>Congregationalists and one or more Bahais ?
None that I can see. The congregationalists were worried that their
reputation and image would be besmirched by associating with Baha'is; One or
more Baha'is were worried that the Faith's (our their personal)reputation
and image would be besmirched if "people" thought the Baha'is were somehow
affiliated with Jews.
This just validates to me that anti-Semitism, subtle, cunning, and cockroach
like in its ability to stay alive needs to be rooted out of our lives and
that Baha'is are no more "immune" to it than they are to any other form of
"racism" or irrational prejudice acquired from childhood or church upbringing.
>
> 2) Derek commented that a group of youth were going storm America with
>their love of the NSA and the understanding that the "problem" was local ,
>not national and they were discussuing changing their majors in college to be
>of more service to humankind .This is the one that really stumps me . He
>mentioned they were hanging around Bosch after being in Dallas (I am working
>mightilly to not do a class analysis here ).
I took this to mean that the students were from the area and were there
sharing their experience. I didn't understand the major statement either,
but maybe they were previously majoring in "Applied Negativity" "20th
Century Resentment" or "101 Ways to Remain Aloof" :-)
> 3)
> What is the goal for the other 90 percent of those who become Bahai's ?
They are required to split into 30% shares: 1. be the innactive
ones that people can ask how to resucitate. 2. the ones who are marginal
brain damaged and delusional who stand on street corners and babble to
invisible people. These will be used to form new LSA's in goal areas at the
end of the plan. 3. these dedicated souls will spend all their time in meetings.
>
>I don't expect you to take these answers as authorative, but they are my
best guess at the moment.
Burl
>
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 16:51:09 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: lua@sover.net (LuAnne Hightower)
Subject: Forgiveness
Allah-u-Abha, Philip.
I'm with Alma. Call it detachment, call it containment of base emotions,
call it presence; call our necessary (ideal) response to being wronged
anything BUT forgiveness, which is not ours to give. In such a circumstance
where I find myself unable to step back from some judgement of another, due
to my perception of being wronged, I think that I should be praying for
forgiveness, not bestowing it. Or praying for perspective, or detachment.
Or praying that GOD forgive the individual who has visited some (real) harm
to me. My righteous indignation is always and indication to me that I am
clinging to some distortion around the said event, whether it be ascribing
motive to the other person, or taking all too personally their actions. How
many times do we jump to point the finger at what is usually an act of
ignorance or thoughtlessness. How attached are we to our own hurts, scars,
suffering. What is the payoff?
So, if the individual is a friend, I try to consult with them about the
behavior which caused me pain, AFTER I've had some time to reflect on the
alleged incident. If not a friend or colleague, I try not to be too quick
to judge. Why am I so eager to feel hurt? to judge? to condemn the
actions of others, when in the grand cosmic scheme of things, what
difference does it make if someone interrupts me or whatever. There is a
compilation on health projects which has a brief sketch of Bahiyyih Khanum
(I believe). The statement is made to the effect that her detachment was
such that she never even took offense at the actions of others, which were
very often offensive - because she understood the state of deprivation that
people were in, the degree of unconsciousness, the fear that people carry.
I'll look it up when I get home and post it tomorrow.
This is not to say that we shouldn't act to see that justice is done in
cases where there is clearly real harm that has been committed. But that
the focus we have in the personal interactions we have with those around us
have to do with our own shortcomings. The Melami path of Sufism is the path
of blame - the recognition that all good comes from God and all else
originates inside of us (and other human beings, of course). They never
take credit for their own good actions, because they recognize that any good
they do comes only from their submission to the One. This is humility.
This is, I believe what is being spoken of in the following prayer of the Bab:
"...I have known Thee, O my god, by reason of Thy making Thyself known unto
me, for hadst Thou not revealed Thyself unto me, I would not have known
Thee. I worship Thee by virtue of Thy summoning me unto Thee, for had it
not been for Thy summons, I would not have worshiped Thee." Baha'i Prayers
p127 (US)
and a prayer of Baha'u'llah:
"Glorified ar Thou, O Lord my God! I yield Thee thanks for having enabled
me to recognize the Manifestaion of Thyself, and for having severed me from
Thine enemies, and laid bare before mine eyes their misdeeds and wicked
works in Thy days, and for having rid me of all attachment to them, and
caused me to turn wholly towards Thy grace and bountiful favors. I give
Thee thank, also, for having sent down upon me from the clouds of Thy will
that which hath so sanctified me from the hints of the infidels and the
allusions of the misbelievers that I have fixed my heart firmly on Thee, and
fled from such as have denied the light of Thy countenance. Again I thank
Thee for having empowered me to be steadfast in Thy love, and to speak forth
thy praise and to extol Thy virtues, and for having given me to drink of the
cup of Thy mercy that hath surpassed all things visible and invisible. Thou
art the Almight, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious, the All-Loving." Bahai
Prayers p 123 (US)
Notice that the prayers for forgiveness are not pleas for God to help us
forgive others. And under Families, prayers for God to forgive us, our
parents, etc.
How many of us actually perform a diligent accounting of our daily deeds?
They are not very easy or pleasant to encounter, especially on a bad day,
but this simple act can keep us from taking the inventory of others so
readily. As long as we walk this earth, none of us if free from mistakes
and errors. The only chance for our community is to begin to practice what
is asked of us as Baha'is. This is the key to transformation. Perhaps all
of these apparent wrongs we perceive coming to us from the world around us
are the very means by which God severs us from the things of this world. If
we can let go of them and turn wholly unto Him, then we are at least
beginning to walk on the path. May we all come to know the Mercy of our Lord.
Love,
LuAnne
=END=
From: Stephen Bedingfield
Subject: Knight of Baha'u'llah, Mary McCulloch
To: talisman@indiana.edu (Talisman)
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 14:06:52 MST
Sorry, I forgot to mention this:
Knight of Baha'u'llah, Mary McCulloch (nee Zablotny sp?) passed away last
Sunday, January 7th at 8:30 PM at her home in The Pas, Manitoba. Mary filled
perhaps the toughest nut to crack during the Ten year Crusade--the Virgin
territory of Anticosti Island. Alas, she was only able to stay a few months
but she continued her pioneering spirit at Baker Lake, NWT from 1958 to 1979
before re-settling to other pioneer posts. And Baker Lake was in itself
perhaps to most oppressive place in North America to pioneer to.
Mary also was active in translating the Writings into Ukrainian.
Her funeral is this Saturday at 1:30 CST in The Pas. Your prayers for
her departed soul and her husband Ken will surely
be appreciated.
Loving regards, stephen
--
Stephen Bedingfield | "We desire but
Box 115, Cambridge Bay NT X0E 0C0 | the good of the world and
Canada (403) 983-2123 | the happiness of the nations"
email: sbedin@inukshuk.gov.nt.ca | - Baha'u'llah
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 96 14:51:43 PST
Subject: Re: Humility and Forgiveness
To: belove@sover.net, talisman@indiana.edu, alma@indirect.com
Thanks so much Alma.
I really appreciate this response for all the confusion it brings up
in me.
If I may comment on it please. I would be very interested to hear
your answers to my misgivings about the position you're taken.
First, where I agree with you.
I do agree that there is some kind of a spiritual goal in which
judgment is reserved to God.
I also agree that I, too, am not there yet.
I also agree that if only I didn't judge, I would have nothing to
forgive.
And I confess that often forgiveness is quite elusive.
Where I have trouble with your approach is that you seem to set aside
the process just at the point I think the process begins. It is as
if you've said, Judgement is reserved to God, therefore I am not
supposed to judge. Therefore I shouldn't be so needing to forgive.
And one day I won't have to. And meanwhile, I don't want to think
about it because I shouldn't be this way in the first place.
I've always loved your signature poem from Tahirih. But I read the
poem as saying that accepting that we do judge and that we are not
humble and that we need to work to learn forgiveness and it is not
easy... all this is what she means when she says, "To tread the path
of love is no mere game.
Thank you again and I hope this response hasn't been offensive to you
in any way.
Philip
On Thu, 11 Jan 1996 09:24:01 -0700 alma@indirect.com wrote:
>Dear Phillip,
>
>An interesting article. Personally I see things differently.
Judgement is
>reserved to God. If I cannot judge, then I have nothing to forgive.
I can
>only accept. Admittedly this is a goal but I find that I am moving
closer to
>it. Doubt if this will help you with your paper but I wanted to
share it
>with you.
>
>In peace and with Baha'i love,
>Alma
>
>
> To tread the path of Love Alma Engels
> Is no mere game. alma@indirect.com
> For only one
> Out of many thousands
> Can persevere in His Love. (Tahirih)
>
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/11/96
Time: 14:51:43
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: 11 Jan 96 15:42:06 EST
From: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
To:
Subject: The Guardian, The Germans and Chomsky
Dear Talismanians,
Thanks first to Brent Poirier for a brilliantly evocative apologia (meant
in the very best sense of the word, as The Guardian uses it) of Shoghi
Effendi's letter to the German Baha'is. I have read that letter many
times, and never have I understood it more than when reading Brent's
piece.
Next, thanks to Sandy Fotos for her NLP-inspired view of spirituality,
but most especially for bringing up Noam Chomsky here on Talisman. His
work has exerted a large influence on my thinking for many years, from
lo those many years ago as an aspiring academic in the Modern Language
Association to his more activist stance where it regards movements of
the people and world corporate media dominance. Anyone see the terrific
documentary on Noam called Manufacturing Consent a few years ago? Here
was a film that we oughta show at every feast in the country, IMHO.
At any rate, Sandy's reference to generative language formation reminded
me of a wonderful article carried in the popular press last year, in
which infants were found to have virtually similiar patterns of babbling,
pre-language formation expression across the cultural spectrum. Think
of it -- babies already have a universal language! For me, this single
discovery validates much of Chomsky's earlier linguistic theory and
convinces me that we also harbor a portion of our hard-wired little
cranial computers dedicated to the acquisition and practice of
spirituality.
Thus, a nod to Terry, we, each of us, constitute Houses of Worship.
Love,
David
ps: Only thirty-two shopping days until the Talisman Mysticism
Conference! Register now! 1-408-423-3387
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 12:25:11 +1300 (NZDT)
To: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>,
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: The Guardian, The Germans and Chomsky
At 15:42 11/1/96, David Langness wrote:
>At any rate, Sandy's reference to generative language formation reminded
>me of a wonderful article carried in the popular press last year, in
>which infants were found to have virtually similiar patterns of babbling,
>pre-language formation expression across the cultural spectrum. Think
>of it -- babies already have a universal language!
Has anyone any more information on this. Sandy?
Best,
Robert.
=END=
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 96 07:08:19 IST
From: stephenk@bwc.org (Stephen Karnik)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Unsubsribe
unsubscribe talisman stephenk@bwc.org
=END=
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 21:01:38 -0500 (EST)
From: George Gary
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Manifestation and Prophets of God
I believe that Muhammad told his followers to support and protect
the "people of the book" by which he meant the Christians, Jews, and
Zoroastrians. So, the association of a Book with the Manifestations
goes back at least that far and includes Jesus.
=END=
[end of 1/14/96 session]
Talisman emails received 1/15/96 (also includes missing posts
from 1/11 and 1/12, which apparently spent a few days in limbo
or in an alternate dimension on the way from Talisman's server
to mine).
---------------------------------------------------------
From: AGhosh@uh.edu
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 15:48:47 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re:Questions on teachings etc
To: talisman@indiana.edu
>
> 2) Derek commented that a group of youth were going storm America with
>their love of the NSA and the understanding that the "problem" was local ,
>not national and they were discussuing changing their majors in college to be
>of more service to humankind .This is the one that really stumps me . He
>mentioned they were hanging around Bosch after being in Dallas (I am working
>mightilly to not do a class analysis here ).
I take this to mean that the person has consciously explored the needs of
the faith, his/her capacity and inclination and choose his subject of
study. It may be possible that common perceptions of what is a "service"
career may have affected their decision. This should not be the case. However,
the act of "trying to allign his/her life" with the faith is what of importance.
For example I may want to be a doctor because my father was one and I kind
of liked it. However my recent experiences convinced me that building the
arc is the top priority and I have discovered that my capacity for business
is not that bad and I decided to do a business degree. It does not say
anything about the businessman or the doctor.
> 3)
> What is the goal for the other 90 percent of those who become Bahai's ?
As far as the original plan was presented in Houston, the idea was that
the teachers will make sure that 10% of the newly enrolled believers start
attending the nightly gatherings and be encouraged to go along with the
teachers to teach. It will be left for the community to slowly bring along
the rest. The "teachers" here refer to the actual members of the team.
Of course we all know that there are thousands different ways of teaching.
If you wish you can always change the teachers with "team-members". It's
a question of semantics.
Love
Arindam
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 19:39:44 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: Questions on teaching etc
Dear Arindam ,
By all means do all the street teaching you want .
I noticed you declined to answer my first question whci in my view is
the important one , gave me a standard answer to my second, and made my
real point about the third that there is no plan to "consolidate" the
remaining 90 percent . You said it was up to the community . Here is the rub
those 90.percent who are not expressive street teachers by nature have no
where to go in a community in which administration is defined as the essence
of community . As for feeling your enthusiasm dampened by the asking of
tough questions well welcome to the world . i would have hoped you had told
me that you felt a personal responsilbility for those 90 percent to see that
there was a community in which they could participate. I understand the
thrill of the quick sale on the "street " I am a salesman remember . But as
I said before that is the EASY part and as the House points out TEACHING has
two integral parts expansion and consolidation . The consolidation part is
part of teaching. So pardon me for not holding back but I have watched what
you have described for 24 years and it upsets me greatly , but like you I
will probably get over it and continue with my own teaching work .
So the question still exists what is going to happen with the remaining 90
percent ? and the 90.percent after that . Same old same old . Derek- any
suggestions.
warm regards ,
Terry
=END=
From: AGhosh@uh.edu
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 21:44:54 -0600 (CST)
Subject: re;questions on teaching
To: talisman@indiana.edu
The first question was not for me to answer.
The community should be doing exactly what you suggested. Why one has to
be at the expense of the other I don't understand. Yes the teachers are
personally reponsible for ALL the persons they enrolled. However, as you
know everybody does not respond the moment they enroll. The idea was to
have the travelling teacher AT LEAST 10% of the seeker connected to AT
LEAST one member of the community. Now how can a travelling teacher
CONSOLIDATE somebody.
Now spme person has the knack of consolidation like you have and some
person has the urge to teach. If we don't criticize each other everything
goes fine. You suggested dawnprayers, fine have them. This plan already
has a nightly meeting add dawn prayers to it. You want a house of worship
fine. This plan calls for establishing a Bahai Center by 10 communities
coming together. Make it 20 and have the HOuse of WOrship.
No, we will just criticize everything that comes in sight if it does not
follow on a DOT to our idea of how the things should be.
Sorry I am angry, but still with love
Arindam
=END=
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 18:36:56 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
Subject: Re: 7-up Candy Bars and Burl
>Burl:
>Hey! Remember the old candy bar 7-up (not related to the soft drink)?
>I hadn't thought of it in years when suddenly, while typing this post, it
>came to mind. WOW! How Mystical! What is the hidden meaning of THAT?
You need a chocolate fix! Unless the 7-up candy bar was not chocolate ---
but what candy bar worth the name is not chocolate!
Since all of this world is supposed to be but a reflection of the real,
spiritural world, the first question I'm going to ask when I die and pass
over --- or under --- is: What is the spiritual equivilant of chocolate and
where can I get some?
Doug Myers
nightbrd@humboldt1.com
"Nothing survives but the way we live our lives."
=END=
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 96 21:21 PST
To: belove@sover.net
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Iran, the Eucharist, etc.
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
>
>
belove commented:
>This is is the most amazing story. It is funny, in some sort of dark
>way.
Follow up: The Jewish Community Center will be used for children's
classes starting next weekend. The idea of a community pork roast and
passion play to celebrate the occasion has been put on hold.
Burl
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 21:26:58 -0600
From: "Mark A. Foster"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: maturity, embodiment
Hi, Sen -
Please excuse the delay in responding. I just returned from a
three-day conference at Central Missouri State University.
I agree with you that we all change our viewpoints. It is a part of
spiritual maturity. And, like you, I have also noticed that the House of
Justice has become more direct and, perhaps, relaxed or confident, in
its messages over the past thirty-three years. My point was that, as I
see it, the fact that the House is more operationally "mature," as
indicated by the the creation and development of its various support
agencies (such as, the Research Dept. and the International Teaching
Centre), does not seem to me to imply that their decisions would
necessarily be "better," in the sense of more infallible (which is, of
course what we were talking about).
The reason for my statement was that you had indicated that you did
not think that the House's message on "Individual Rights and Freedoms"
represented the best in the Teachings (if I understood you correctly).
While I would expect to see the House produce messages contextualized to
the stages in the *multilinear* (Julian Steward) or *specific* (Marshall
Sahlins and Elman Service) evolution of the Faith and its institutions
throughout the Baha'i world, I do not, personally, see the House
becoming more infallible (or truthful without error) - which is what you
appeared to be saying.
From my POV, the House's and the Guardian's infallibility represents
the power of the Covenant channeled into the dynamics of a particular
situation or context. The variability of decisions is necessary, since it
reflects the power of the House to adapt to changing and diverse situations.
It also means that decisions are rendered based on the House's information.
However, I would be hesitant to say that because information may, from a
material standpoint, be "incomplete" that, somehow, the decision was lacked
validity. We have no way of knowing whether a decision which may, using our
own mental faculties, be deficient in factual accuracy could, if followed,
be used nonetheless to the glory of Baha'u'llah's Kingdom. Therefore, I have
difficulty with *purely* rational explanations of the House's decisions,
i.e., truth versus error, as in the Edenic tree of the knowledge of good and
evil. As I see it, the ripening of the Tree of Life, a characteristic of
this Dispensation, has freed us from such dualistic thinking.
Regarding the point both you and Rob Stockman have made about the
body of Baha'u'llah being the general body of believers (as the church,
or eklesia, was the body of believers in Christ), I would obviously agree
with you. Without getting into too much additional speculation on my
part, my feeling is that the House, as the Collective Center of the
Baha'i World Community, represents that body in protypical form. But I
would rather leave it at that, since I am really giving only an opinion
and have no objective "proof."
S>'Alethology' has me stumped: not in my dictionary at all.
S>Would it be related to Greek alytheia?
Yes. That is the root. Alethiology, not a particularly common word,
is the branch of logic dealing with truth statements.
Warm greetings,
Mark
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
*Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., Sociologist of Religion (Structuralist) *
*Sociology, JCCC, 12345 College Blvd., Overland Park, KS 66210-1299 U.S.A. *
*Past President (1995), Kansas Sociological Society *
*Director, Institute for Religious Gnosis Owner, Baha'i Studies List *
*Academic Director (and Kansas Dir.), Foundation for the Science of Reality *
*Board of Directors (and Talent), Tektite, Ltd. (Religion Films Production) *
*Phones: 913/469-8500, ext.3376 (Office) and 913/768-4244 (Home) *
*Fax: 913/469-4409 Science of Reality BBS: 913/768-1113 (8-N-1; 14.4 kbps) *
*Email: mfoster@tyrell.net or mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us (List Co-Moderator) *
* 72642,3105 (Staff, Three CompuServe Religion Fora) UWMG94A (Prodigy)*
* Realityman (America Online Ethics and Religion Forum Remote Staff) *
*Home Pages: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Science_of_Reality *
* http://home.aol.com/Realityman (Note: The Web is Case-Sensitive)*
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
=END=
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 96 21:31:34 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: sociobiology and mysticism
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Sandy, I love it when Juan expresses his opinions on Sociobiology. We
always have good fight then.
I am considering going to the Mysticism Conference but Derek has threatened me
that I will be under 24 hour surveillance with search lights and watch dogs.
This is the warm, cuddly Bosch Baha'i hospitality he is always bragging about!
AS for Iran, let us not forget that the Shah was dying of cancer and wasn't
exhibiting any true leadership. He was waffling all over the place and giving
many mixed messages - a very good way to encourage the discontent to act up.
One other quick item - I am going to England the end of March and beginning of
April. I will be in Coventry for the first few days and then London. Does
anyone have any advice on very inexpensive places that I could stay. Thank
you. Linda
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 96 23:21:21 PST
Subject: Re: sociobiology?/ Re: humility & forgiveness-neurolinguistically
To: talisman@indiana.edu, George Gary
Thanks. I don't know if it's relevant. I think it is. I have to think
more about the relationship between sympathetic nervous system and
limbic system.
Actually, I'd think all the living parts of the body are partly
physical and partly spiritual in function. sensory system, nervous
system, digestive system. So I'm not sure whether one was elevated
over the other.
thanks again,
Philip
On Thu, 11 Jan 1996 17:43:32 -0500 (EST) George Gary wrote:
>Abdu'l-Baha talks about the sympathetic nervous system being partly
>physical and partly spiritual in function. I can't remember the
source.
>also several places he mentions the inheritance of character as in
the
>the lines of the profphets. Is this relevant?
>
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/11/96
Time: 23:21:21
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 23:27:05 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Manifestation and Prophets of God
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "George Gary" ,
George writes:
>I believe that Muhammad told his followers to support and protect
>the "people of the book" by which he meant the Christians, Jews, and
>Zoroastrians. So, the association of a Book with the Manifestations
>goes back at least that far and includes Jesus.
I tried to be very careful in what I was saying and not simply point out
the obvious. "People of the book" can also be " People of the Word" that
is the Word of God. Thus, metaphorically, on the one hand, we can say
that Jesus was the author of a Holy Book, but that on the other, that is
literally, he is not. And there is no contradiction. Baha'u'llah writes
in the Kitab-i-Iqan, " That a certain attribute of God hath not been
outwardly manifested by these Essences of Detachment doth in no wise
imply that they Who are the Daysprings of God's attributes and Treasuries
of His holy names did not actually possess it." (KIQ p.104) Hence, from
my point of view, there is an outward difference between the "medium" (in
its broadest sense) of Christs message and that of Moses, Muhammad, the
Bab and Baha'u'llah. I believe there was a very good reason for this.
The message of Moses had been lost because of a slavish attitude towards
the Law. As Jesus said, "The Sabbath was made for man not man for the
Sabbath." Quite frequently Jesus is portrayed in situations were he is
being confronted over the Law. Not that He in fact disobeyed the Law but
that the Scribes and Pharisees had so taken over its meaning and spirit
that the Law had been rendered inert. Thus, Jesus disassociated Himself
from the law and was not a Lawgiver outwardly. He gave one command,
"That ye love the Lord with your whole soul, whole mind and whole body,
and your neighbor as yourself". Nonetheless, as was mentioned in a
previous post he provided teachings "that revolutionized the world."
In this connection, there are, to my knowledge, no writings of Jesus the
Christ. At least there are none generally agreed upon as being such.
There are the Gospels of course but these were not written by Jesus or
even attributed as being written by Him. Such is also the case with
Socrates (who I am not construing as a Prophet but simply using as a case
in point). We have his teachings but not his writings. We have the
Creative Word of Jesus but not a book like the Pentateuch (The Five Books
of Moses) or the Qur'an. Therefore, He didn't come with a " Book" in
that strict and also important sense. He did, however, come with the
Creative Word.
In closing, and from my point of view, it is the Word (the perfect man,
"strengthen by the Holy Spirit")--as the medium that is the message of
Christ.
PS.
I have digressed far afield from the original points about Quddus, Whose
station as of yet, is not fully disclosed. Whether or not He is the
return in the attributes of a previous Manifestation is uncertain but it
is not without merit for consideration because there is, in my estimate,
a mystery regarding His station.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 21:32:40 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: hwmiller@ccnet.com (Henry Miller)
Subject: Re: questions on Teaching
Dear Derek,
In your message about the healthly optimism of the Youth, you wrote:
> Young people have a healthy disregard for what
>they perceive as ancient social history .
Yeh, at least that is the stance my daughter always took towards me.....:-)!
Seriously, though, as one of her main teachers at Bosch (Jr. Youth
Week, Youth Academy, etc.) as well as a main teacher of countless youth
and "old folks," you have been in the vanguard of those helping to deepen,
inspire, and strengthen our future Baha'i mothers and fathers in the
wonderful setting of Bosch Baha'i School. (No, I know....you weren't
teaching sex education).
And, the next time I'm there in the dining room, I am going to have
everybody sing "Happy Birthday" to you, regardless of what day it is.
Suggestion: Send a photo of Sherman to Quanta, after she gets her
homepage back up and working (a shame that all that work got lost.....but
good practice), and have her get it up on the web, alongside the photos of
Mark F. and others.
Baha'i love,
Henry
Henry W. Miller
hwmiller@ccnet.com
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 21:51:36 -0500
Message-Id: <960111214842_88226087@emout05.mail.aol.com>
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Dearest Arindam:
I hope that you will not allow the discussion on Talisman to make you sad,
or the questions that must be raised about mass teaching anywhere in the
world dampen your enthusiasm or freshness of spirit. Of course, we all
rejoice in the teaching successes that you have seen. We all share your
happiness that many new souls have entered the Cause of God.
However, many of us have been around for a long time. And we have seen
this happen before. That does not make your unique experiences any less
precious. But it does mean that we know that there are more issues involved
in teaching the Faith than just the thrill of conversion. Some of these are
tough issues, and I am gratified that the believers have the maturity to
bring them up--even in the midst of our intoxication with your victories.
Now, why do you ask if it is a crime to love the NSA? All the Baha'is
here love the National Spiritual Assembly. Your question seems to want to
divide the Baha'is into two groups--those who love the NSA, and those who
don't. And, of course, you belong to the first group, but you are so not
sure about the rest of us. You can imagine that this might be a devisive
position to take.
I do not think that anyone on this list is against mass
teaching--including mass teaching of the kind you describe. We just know
from unhappy experience that it is a bit more complicated than you seem to
want to admit. Terry's question about the 90% who will not be immediately
involved in street teaching is very important. Are there concrete plans to
integrate these people into the Baha'i community, address their needs, listen
to their ideas, and allow them to recreate the community as we know it?
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 96 21:15 PST
To: Juan R Cole
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: sociobiology
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Juan said:>
>
>>Sociobiology contains the danger that the poor will be said to be poor
>because of defective genes. The incarcerated will be said to be criminal
>because of defective genes. Women will be said to be less competent
>because of defective genes. You get the picture.
Burl says:
Yes, and it sounds like reincarnation justification --
the poor are poor because of past lives, etc. -- with a new name.
Where I come from, reincarnation is milk from dead cows.
BB
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 15:44:54 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
Subject: Re: More on forgiveness
Dear Philip and Bev,
I have ben following this conversation with great interest because I, as any
person, have had to deal with forgiveness in the past, and since I am
involved with other people, will have to in the future.
Philip writes:
>It's related to the question of how do you think through forgiveness.
> And further, how do you forgive one who is unapologetic?
snip ---->
>To love someone and appreciate them and still be mindful constantly
>of their limitations... so as not to be shocked and feel betrayed
>when they come up, as they will, again and again.
>
>This last is the practice of forgiveness.
May I offer another perspective? Can one forgive another who is
unaplogetic? If I have been hurt or wronged, especially by someone I love,
I can say "I forgive you" but as Bev brings up earlier I am setting myself
up to be a "martyr" and the whole thing will "raise it's ugly head some time
in the future as stress and unfinished business."
Here is the rub, as I see it. I can accept my anger and be prepared to do
the work involved in giving true forgiveness BUT unless the other party
acknowledges their action and recognizes its effects on me, I am, by
complicity, accepting the status quo, and should be prepared to be walked on
again. The only way I see to forgive and not have the other party
acknowledge their part in it is to leave the situation. Sometimes we just
have to move on. I know this from living through such an experience.
>So now we have forgiveness, not as an accomplishment, more than a
>process, but, as a practice.
>
>And like all practices, it involves being able to walk and ever finer
>line with ever greater consciousness.
>
>It involves accepting limitations and neither denying them nor
>resenting the burden these limitations place on you. Humility
>becoming Love becoming Service.
Humility is such an ellusive quality because it is not one of the qualities
of God. And in being such it is the only true gift we can give God. We
have 'Abdu'l-Baha as our exemplar of humility, along with all the
attributes of God. What would 'Abdu'l-Baha do? I do not know His full
biography but I know He those that became covenant breakers with love and
mercy and repeatedly tried to assist them. But even our perfect example of
what a person can be came to a point where He had to say enough is enough
and declare some individual a covenant breaker.
Relationships between people are, by their very nature, flexible and can be
molded into whatever shape we want. The question is, do we shape the
relationship of does the relationship shape us? As with most things, some
of both. But I cannot stay in any relationship with another person that
seperates me from my integrity. I am remined of the old phrase "I like you
because..., I love you inspite of..." I can handle "inspite of" if leaves
me my dignity. But, sometimes we just have to move on.
Again, thank you Philip and Bev for your great discussion. I look forward
to its continuation.
Doug Myers
nightbrd@humboldt1.com
"Nothing survives but the way we live our lives." JB
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 12:18:42 +1300 (NZDT)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: SDC 11:"..the mirror of their minds...the lamp of their inner vision..."
Talismans,
The following passage -- in which the account of hierarchy of
being continues -- is a guiding light to scholars, surely. Notice the
balance of intellectual AND ethical characteristics present among the
"famed and accomplished men of learning" (et al)...
I am heading into the weekend...
Robert.
SDC 3
Again, there are those famed and accomplished men of learning,
possessed of praiseworthy qualities and vast erudition, who lay hold on
the strong handle of the fear of God and keep to the ways of salvation.
In the mirror of their minds the forms of transcendent realities are
reflected, and the lamp of their inner vision derives its light from the
sun of universal knowledge. They are busy by night and by day with
meticulous research into such sciences as are profitable to mankind, and
they devote themselves to the training of students of capacity. It is
certain that to their discerning taste, the proffered treasures of kings
would not compare with a single drop of the waters of knowledge, and
mountains of gold and silver could not outweigh the +P22 successful
solution of a difficult problem. To them, the delights that lie outside
their work are only toys for children, and the cumbersome load of
unnecessary possessions is only good for the ignorant and base. Content,
like the birds, they give thanks for a handful of seeds, and the song of
their wisdom dazzles the minds of the world's most wise.
Again, there are sagacious leaders among the people and
influential personalities throughout the country, who constitute the
pillars of state. Their rank and station and success depend on their
being the well-wishers of the people and in their seeking out such means
as will improve the nation and will increase the wealth and comfort of
the citizens.
Observe the case when an individual is an eminent person in his
country, zealous, wise, pure-hearted, known for his innate capacity,
intelligence, natural perspicacity--and is also an important member of the
state: what, for such an individual, can be regarded as honor, abiding
happiness, rank and station, whether in the here or the hereafter? Is it
a diligent attention to truth and righteousness, is it dedication and
resolve and devotion to the good pleasure of God, is it the desire to
attract the favorable consideration of the ruler and to merit the approval
of the people? Or would it, rather, consist in this, that for the sake of
indulging in feasts and dissipations by night he should undermine his
country and break the hearts of his people by day, causing his God to
reject him, and his sovereign to cast +P23 him out and his people to
defame him and hold him in deserved contempt? By God, the mouldering
bones in the graveyard are better than such as these! Of what value are
they, who have never tasted the heavenly food of truly human qualities,
and never drunk of the crystalline waters of those bounties which belong
to the realm of man?
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 96 08:21:11+030
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: Forgiveness
Dear Philip:
What an interesting response! Thank you, you have given me somethings to
think about. One thing I do have to comment on is how you came up with the
"wronged" partner in the marriage senerio being a woman. Is this just a
gender slip? Or did I make a gender slip? I had tried to keep it generic,
as I am sure there are just as many infidelities perpetrated by both genders
and did not want to get into identifying infidelity with one gender or the
other. Sorry if I didn't succeed. Hard to teach an old dog new gender
language, and as legitimate as the need for new language is, it sometimes a
real pain to erase 45 years of thinking and adopt a new language...but I do try.
Regarding boundaries, you made a comment about a possible choice for the
partner as being the setting of boundaries stating "I love you, I wish you
well, but I believe I can't trust you again as my spouse, not for too long a
time, at least, and I want to go on with my life." This is one boundary,
for sure, and claiming the right to expect fidelity from your lover has
certainly come to the forfront in this century. In the past, infidelity was
perhaps accepted as part of relationships, and preferable to divorce. In
this century that is being brought into question...with the result of many
people demanding more fidelity, more honest relationships, more intimate
contact with their mates beyond just a physical one. It is also reflected
in our spiritual lives as we demand more intimate understanding and
relationship with our faith. (No more letting the priestcraft decide what
we should and should not know.)
However, to respond with such a strong limit has actually resulted in a lot
of promiscuity as people run from one partner to another looking for
perfection. What we have lost in this new awareness is the ability to
struggle with what you got!
This is not to say that staying in a bad situation is desired. We have come
to far in gender partnership to suggest that. What I am suggesting is that
such boundaries, "I believe I can't trust you again as my spouse, not for
too long a time," may still be in the reaction stage, and needs, perhaps, to
be kept in the area of the spirit "buying time" to assess and work through
sorting through what caused the breach of faith, what has been learned by
both parties, and building a new relationship which can be stronger and
based on solid trust which acknowledges humility and humanity for both
partners.
This approach, by the way, is also setting an example for children of the
marriage. This is not to say children should be party to the details of the
situation, or even necessarily have knowledge of the infidelity, unless the
breach is so great that a separation is necessary. Even then, information
on the infidelity may not be necessary to convey to the children. But
children are aware that something is not right. And to see their parents
taking steps to consult, to grapple with their feelings and to go forward is
a lesson of life, which they themselves will carry forward in whatever they do.
Back to the community, to bring the analogy up to that level. I believe the
same principles apply. They are going to look different, but they are
underlyingly similar.
When there is a breach of faith between the lovers of the "indivual and the
institution", the "children/community" are distressed, affected and
involved. They react the same way that many children in a marriage would
act, "make it nice again, we want the security of the familiar to the
insecurity of an unknown conclusion". The pressure can be on to "hurry up
and relieve the anxiety of not knowing the conclusion", instead of
recognizing the process of the spirit needing time to examine and feel all
the necessary components to allow forgiveness and re-establishment of trust
at a much deeper level. Perhaps one of the greatest gifts we can hope for
is security in the process rather than needing security from the conclusion.
This might also be a good time to introduce the idea of the "science" of
forgiveness. To engage in the process of forgiveness might lead one to the
conclusion that conclusions in themselves are just new questions...the
petrol which keeps movement happenings. This does not mean that we have to
be in positions all the time to "forgive", that would be pretty stressful.
But it is a connection worth exploring. How does the science of discovery
come into our spiritual life?
Back to our analogy.
The hard part in the spouse "forgiving" the errant spouse, but denying the
ability to re-establish a level of trust (even trust built up again over
time) is a contradiction, and an expectation of perfection from the first
spouse. It is a statement like "You didn't live up to my expectations, and
therefore I will not trust you again". If the spouses both sit down and
consult about what has been operating in the head of the errant spouse which
lead to their infidelity, and what actions of the part of the first spouse
have reinforced that need, it can result in a deeper awareness of the
humanity of the spouses, hidden messages being passed between them, etc.
What I am getting at here is that the act of infidelity can be a result of
something missing, something not being met within the marriage which is so
strong a need in the partner that it resulted in them breaking trust in
order to fulfill that need. Do you condemn them forever because they were
human enough to have that need, or do you look at the need as a couple and
see where adjustments need to be made before the relationship can continue.
(Then again, sometimes the spouse has too many hormones working, and they
are not trying to control them.)
In the same way, when an individual in the community feels strongly enough
about something to speak out, or to act in a way contrary to community
desires, is there a need on the part of the institution to examine why that
might be happening, and either helping the individual to address their need,
or to collectively address something in the community which might need
adjusting? (Or is it a case of an individual or an institution demanding
their own way?)
The point I am again making here is that disruption, bumps in the road,
disunity, whatever label you want to put on it for the picture in your head
can be a sign of something amiss which needs to be addressed before we
continue. It may take some bouncing before resolution is reached and we can
move forward.
As to the driver, well, if they are a responsible driver, they will know
where their wheels are on the road, and if they have learned about how their
vehicle reacts to certain bumps, they will avoid them carefully in future
so as to save wear and tear on their shocks and springs.
Love,
Bev.
P.S. Just read your next posting, and it sounds like you have thought of
this too.
=END=
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 23:36:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: sociobiology
Since my views on sociobiology have been solicited, I will just say that
Sandy has it right, that I am worried about reductionism.
I am also worried about a recrudescence of Social Darwinism and eugenics
(which, in fact, we have already with us in a powerful way in the form of
the influential fascist tract, *The Bell Curve.*)
In the Hidden Words, Baha'u'llah asks, "Know ye not why We created ye of
the same dust?" Human beings all share the same genome. They're not
*that* different from one another. And there is a collusion between
geneticists (who want *big* bucks from the Government, which is to say
from you and me) and the journalists (who like simplistic, short answers
to things that can fit in a specified set of column inches) to push
sociobiology.
Some sociobiologists posit that there is an "altruism gene." This is an
attempt to find answers to behavior in the "hardware." But what if this
is a "software" issue? I suggest that all the World religions and even
all the major religious traditions we know about attempt to put pressure
on people not to be individually selfish, not to lie, steal, fornicate,
and so forth. It is unlikely that such prohibitions would be promulgated
unless there was a fair chance of the prohibited behavior occurring. And
I don't think the religions would have lasted unless they had at least
some effect on curbing the socially undesirable behaviors. That is, we
are not doomed to our drives or our genes; culture allows us to channel
and even overcome them.
Human beings have almost no documented instincts (fear of falling, and
the instinct to suck are the only two I can think of). What they have is
*drives*. They have a drive to procreate, a drive to survive, and if
Maslow is right even a drive to create and enjoy beauty. These drives in
turn are structured by societal norms and pressures. Some people are
altruistic because they make that choice. They are not dolphins, pushing
beached sea lions off a sandbar out of instinct.
Sociobiology contains the danger that the poor will be said to be poor
because of defective genes. The incarcerated will be said to be criminal
because of defective genes. Women will be said to be less competent
because of defective genes. You get the picture. Ninety years ago
respectable professors in white coats advocated killing off the
genetically less favored, or sterilizing them and preventing
procreation. Some African-Americans were actually sterilized. We all
know the story of what happened in Germany.
Human beings are very complex; they have a genetic inheritance, but they
also have culture. Wolf children have a complete genome, but they can
never learn to talk or be properly human if they are not brought up in
the society of human beings. They lack the software. I happen to
believe that the causal weight in explaining complex human behaviors
should be given to culture (including revealed religion, mind you), with
genetic endowment a lesser factor.
There are poor people who are poor because they are schizophrenics or
alcoholics, both conditions certainly related to their genetic
endowment. But there are many more poor people who are poor because
Capitalism requires a reserve battalion of the unemployed. Sociobiology
asks all the wrong questions at a macro level. And the answers it gives
are frequently *very* dangerous politically. Scientists like to strike a
pose of innocent free inquiry; but ideas have consequences, and the early
20th-century eugenicists equally struck that pose. Who would let them
get away with it?
All that said, Baha'u'llah does seem to indicate that some individuals
have an inborn trait or two. He says in the Epistle to the Son of the
Wolf that some persons are born with an innate sense of shame that
prevents them from doing wrong (or words to that effect). This, however,
appears to be a rather rare gene :-) .
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 96 22:43 PST
To: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: language, departures
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Linda, that effervescent scion of scones and sociobiology poster child wrote:
"What about peopel who say,
>'between you and I'?" A. "We favor execution without trial."
>
>Dr. Grammer's Guide to Gooder English affirms:
"when we be talking about I and you, or she and me, or dem and dose,
any aforementioned form be formatically otay by I"
It should also be noted that such spurious arguments were put forth as an
objection to many illuminating writings. Mirza Awful Coffee and his
compatriots, Mirza Tasti Wahful, Haji Yumi Donut, and Howya-Wahna Duit,
wrote all about this in their as yet unpublished four part trilogy
"Betweenest Thou and I, He Sayeth it How He be Likething it."
BB
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 16:22:53 PST8PDT
Subject: shedding a bittersweet tear/ Re: Sorry, I could not hold back
Dear Arindam,
I was very happy to hear about your intellgent enthusiasm,
it brings up bittersweet memories of 1972/3/4 when I had
lots of friends who became Baha'i youth. As far as I know,
most of them are not involved with the faith anymore,
including the ones I stay in touch with, but they are still
dear to me.
Please try to take the experiences of us old bruised and
crusty battle hardened folks to heart without letting it
get you down. Your years are so precious, and they'll
probably slip by so fast that perhaps you'll be amazed when
you are staring at a computer screen in 15 or 20 years with
a moist eye and all sorts of regrets are sharpened with a
sweet but painful knowledge of ALL the things of the world.
We of talismanland may not offer our tainted wisdom in the
most pure or palatable form, but believe me, eventually
you'll be glad (one way or the other) that you thought about
most of the things that come up here. The things of the
spirit are eternal in their matchless beauty, but we are here
to wiggle our way up out of the evolutionary/cultural mud pit.
We had to stand on the garbage pile of the world in order to
make our youthful reach for heaven, and it's still the same.
Steadfastly take the path that approachs the door to the
knowledge of God, but keep in mind that your feet aren't clean
if you want to pass over the threshold.
Love,
Eric
(PierceED@csus.edu)
> From: AGhosh@uh.edu
> Date sent: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 15:58:32 -0600 (CST)
> Subject: Sorry, I could not hold back
> To: talisman@indiana.edu
> Sorry I could not hold back. Has it become a sin to love the NSA or try
> to street-teach? participating last 7 days in talisman and criticisms
> therein has dampened my passion for teaching in a way which the LSA's
> immobility over the past year could not. Talk about disempowerment by
> criticism. I am sure I will get over it. But I thought I should let
> everybody know.
>
> Love
> Arindam
>
=END=
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 14:24:09 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: Re: Sorry, I could not hold back
One size does not fit everybody. We talk about diversity and yet we feel the
urge to attack those that try to carry out what they believe is one proper
approach. Teaching is teaching and I believe that any step taken for the
sake of His beauty is praiseworthy. Does anyone dare say that these valiant
souls are going door to door for any reason but His love?
I am sure I am nothing saying anything new, but here I go anyway. It is easy
to destroy anything. It is easy to criticize anything. It is easy to tear
down massive structures. Is that the purpose of this forum? I suspect that
with a bit of sincere encouragement, and kindness to each other we can be
much more successful. May we choose the hard way of building something up
rather than tearing what others have built down.
There seems to be alot of anger, resentment, bitterness, and disappointment
within this forum. IS there any way we can deal with this issue so we can
move forward and not be tied down to feelings that are cuasing harm to other
souls trying to do something positive?
>Sorry I could not hold back. Has it become a sin to love the NSA or try
>to street-teach? participating last 7 days in talisman and criticisms
>therein has dampened my passion for teaching in a way which the LSA's
>immobility over the past year could not. Talk about disempowerment by
>criticism. I am sure I will get over it. But I thought I should let
>everybody know.
>
>Love
>Arindam
>
>
Arsalan J. Sadighi
P.O. Box 23076
Juneau, AK 99802-3076
(907) 463-4668 Residence
(907) 465-5776 Business
(907) 463-4648 Residential Fax
(907) 465-3450 Business Fax
"Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
that is clearly none of your business!" Battista
=END=
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 96 22:43 PST
To: "Stockman, Robert"
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: maturity, collective centre, HOW
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
The House of Worship does not have a proper hall; the basement is a
temporary solution, and is not particularly aesthetic.
>
> -- Rob
>
>Yeah, well, it sure looks pretty darn good compared to 20 years ago.
It (the Temple) is a wonderful representation of the intricate beauty of
the Faith. My cousins (not Baha'i) made a special visit to the Temple simply
because my wife and I are Baha'is. They were amazed and impressed. They
raved about the beauty and artisty of our House of Worship to all my
relatives and they were now filled with not only admiration, but many many
questions about the Faith. It is one of our finest proclamation efforts.
Burl
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 96 23:41 PST
To: Bruce Burrill
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: sociobiology
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
>The reincarnation justification may not be the most satisfactory, but it
>sure beats the hades out of having to justify suffering in terms of a god.
>
>I thought suffering was an aspect of the physical world -- that there was a
certain amount to which we were all either entitled or had coming for the
purpose of growth -- but that to increase the suffering of others was, in a
way, to play if one were a god...that to increase or add to anothers
suffering was an act of blasphemy against the principle of justice.
Just a thought.
Burl
>
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
From: AGhosh@uh.edu
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 03:57:01 -0600 (CST)
Subject: My suggestions to old people with gray hair on talisman
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Go to the Summer Conference at Chicago, go
May be it will reduce your cholestorol level
May be you will rediscover that being Bahai is fun
You can have your own cool Talisman booth
May be you will find that irradicating pernicious materialism, cancerous
secularism and invetereate racialism is all about having the CONCERT, yes
the Concert
May be you will find (horror of horrors (-:) that the NSA is doing the
right thing. They were with the youth all through the conference.
So Pack your van with your children, grandchildren, local bahai kids
and neighbourhood non-bahai kids and GO
BTW Universal House of Justice in its letter to the conference found it
very significant that the Dallas conference coincided with their
consultaion with the counsellors regarding the four-year plan.
Love
Arindam
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 96 09:45:09+030
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: youth
Dear Arindam:
A bird's gotta sing what a bird's gotta sing!
I am probably older than you. I am not a street teacher, and I am not of an
evangelical mould.
However....
That does not mean that other friends aren't.
You sing tenor, I sing bass. If we put them together we have harmony.
Don't give up the tenor role because bass sounds intimidating.
Some quotes to digest:
Lights of Guidance 2157 "The Baha'i Faith is a Religion that Belongs to the
Youth"
"If ever it could be said that a religion belonged to the youth,
then surely the Baha'i Faith today is that religion. The whole world is
suffering, it is sunk in misery, crushed beneath its heavy problems. The
task of healing its ills and building up its future devolves mainly upon the
youth. They are the generation who, after the war, will have to solve the
terrible difficulties created by the war and all that brought it about. And
they will not be able to upbuild the future except by the laws and
principles laid down by Baha'u'llah. So their task is very great and their
responsibility very grave."
(from a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to the Baha'i children
and youth of Peoria, May 8, 1942)
Lights of Guidance 2159 "The Solution to Difficulties which stand in the
Way of Co-operation Between Young and Old Believers"
"...the Guardian fully realizes the difficulties that stand in the
way of co-operation between the young and old believers. This is a problem
that confronts the Cause almost everywhere, specially in those communities
where the number of young and old Baha'is is nearly the same. The solution,
as in all such cases, is to be found through intelligent and mutual
compromise. The old believers have to give up something of their old
conceptions and ways of working in order to bettter adapt themselves to the
changing social conditions and circumstances. The young too must learn to
act with wisdom, tact and moderation, and to take advantage and benefit from
the age-long experience of their older fellow-believers. The old and the
young have each something specific to contribute to the progress and welfare
of the Baha'i Community. The energy of youth should be tempered and guided
by the wisdom of old age."
(from a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual
believer, January 4, 1936.)
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 96 09:45:22+030
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: forgiveness
Dear Philip:
There has been some discussion as to whether we mortals have the right to
forgive (as diminished an attribute as that may be since we are but a
reflection of the attributes of God), or whether forgiveness is God's domain.
It occurs to me that there are different levels of forgiveness.
There are references in the Writings to our need to forgive each other. I
don't have time this morning (6:30 a.m. and I need to get to the gallery) to
research extensively, but I'll get the ball rolling and others can add.
Lights of Guidance 311 "To Be Forebearing, Patient, Merciful, Rather than
Succumbing to Backbiting and Criticism"
"...You also ask what one should do to 'handle depression and anger
with someone' one feels 'very positively about'. The Universal House of
Justice suggests that you call to mind the admonitions found in our Writings
on the need to overlook the shortcomings of others, to forgive and conceal
their misdeeds, not to expose their bad qualities, but to search for and
affirm their praiseworthy ones, and endeavour to be always forbearing,
patient, and merciful.
Another interesting quote:
314 Lights of Guidance "Criticism a Calamity"
..."Vicious criticism is indeed a calamity. But its root is lack of faith
in the system of Baha'u'llah, i.e., the Administrative Order--and lack of
obedience to Him--for He has forbidden it! If the Baha'is would follow the
Baha'i laws in voting, in electing, in serving and in abiding by Assembly
decisions, all this waste of strength through criticising others could be
diverted into cooperation and achieving the Plan."
(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual
believer, December 18, 1949: Baha'i News, No. 233, p.2. July 1950)
I don't know about anyone else, but this last quote certainly gives me a lot
to think about. Comes back to intent, but then obviously transcends intent
as the naming of someone who is misbehaving is not allowed by Abdu'l-Baha,
even if the one doing the naming feels they are doing so to protect the
faith (Lights of Guidance, 311). Only within the confines of an Assembly
can this be done...interesting.
Love,
Bev.
P.S. Does anyone know anything about Prince Albert, Canada?
=END=
From: Rick Schaut
To: "talisman@indiana.edu" ,
"TLCULHANE@aol.com"
Subject: RE: Questions on Teaching etc.
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 18:46:07 -0800
Dear Terry and Friends,
I'll do my best to provide some answers.
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com[SMTP:TLCULHANE@aol.com]
> Yesterday there were three comments that I still have not been able
to
>make sense of or translate into a "meaningful " language .
[Regarding the search for a center in Burl's community:]
> What is the difference between the attitude expressed by the
>Congregationalists and one or more Bahais ?
I thought Burl's point was that there isn't any difference. The
problem is that we, sometimes, don't notice it. We have work
to do.
> 2) Derek commented that a group of youth were going storm America
with
>their love of the NSA and the understanding that the "problem" was local ,
>not national and they were discussuing changing their majors in college to
be
>of more service to humankind .
> What is a college major that will allow one to be of service to mankind
,
>contrasted with ones that won't or are of lesser service ?
Well, one can select a major using a set of criteria which doesn't
include the extent to which one is able to use that knowledge in service
to humanity. When one adds service to this set, one's major can change.
Not only is this reasonable, it's commendable.
> 3) Robert ( I believe) presented a detailed blueprint for teaching in
>Houston or somewhere. In it he mentioned the recommendation that a goal be
10
>percent of the new believers be come active teachers.
> What is the goal for the other 90 percent of those who become Bahai's
?
I can't answer for any of the other areas where institutions are
attempting to implement the Amatu'l-Baha Teaching Crusade, but in the
Seattle area, we've taken a long, hard look at this aspect of the plan.
In a recent Ridvan message, the Universal House of Justice defined the
goal of the Faith is spiritual transformation (or the transformation of
souls). We've taken this to mean that our goal is really to nurture
new believers until their spiritual transformation becomes a self-sustaining
process.
When does one's spiritual transformation become a self-sustaining
process? When one is active serving the Faith (at least this is the
interpretation which has been successfully employed at the Ruhi
Institute). We take this to mean that we have to create avenues of
service for new believers.
This has implied a number of other changes in the whole plan. The
first is to develop a training program for people who are conducting
deepening classes, and to structure our deepening classes in such a
way that new believers can be cycled into either teaching or deepening
work.
The other changes involve expanding the scope of the plan beyond just
teaching and deepening. In this, we've already been doing a number of
things which are very similar to what you've been doing. Our plan
includes increasing worship services (what most Baha'is might refer to
as Unity Feasts), development projects (ESL classes, the Virtues project
and an Institute for the Healing of Racism are under consideration),
children's classes and youth activities. All of these things, as well
as activities in our individual communities, will provide avenues of
service for new believers.
We extended our holiday vacation (a vacation taken for the benefit of
some non-Baha'i members of the family) so that we could participate
in some discussions on entry by troops back in Wisconsin. The thirty-
second sound bite version of that discussion is that everything we
need to know is in the 1993 statement and compilation on Entry by Troops,
and that Local Assemblies must start assuming a leadership role to
plan and coordinate our efforts. So, as individuals, we need to study
that statement and compilation, and we need to encourage our LSAs (or
work with the nearest LSAs if we are in a group or are isolated
believers) to take action based upon that guidance.
I'd love to talk more about entry by troops and what we're doing
here. Unfortunately, I have a lot of catching up to do having
been away from work for a couple of weeks.
Warmest Regards,
Rick
=END=
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 00:52:33 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Alternate Intellectual Approaches
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Talisman"
Dear Friends,
In my discussion with Juan Cole on the subject of "Guidance and
Infallibility" it came to light that there are Baha'is who feel that
they aren't being allowed to be Baha'is in their own way. In addition,
the charge of "reification" has been made-- almost as if it were said
that "Tongues of Fire" descended upon the heads of the members of the
House of Justice when they met. A criticism was also made that
absolutism was infecting the discussion. And finally, the amusing
implication that there are believers who are some kind of spiritual
rednecks or simpletons (rock of ages) who perhaps find thinking
disagreeable.
Dear Friends,
Let's not loose our sense of humor.
1). I believe everyone is welcome in this Cause. I don't believe there
should be an orthodoxy. There was a discussion about atheists joining the
Faith on SBR and one individual Baha'i made a very good case I thought
for allowing this.
2). As for reification--I believe this charge is only valid when made
towards some extreme form of literalism. To suggest that this
"Guidance" is NOT REAL is simply a willful misreading of the text.
(See Lights of Guidance, The Guardianship----Acceptance of---day that
will not be followed by night 626 p.231).
3). This criticism of absolutism completely misunderstands my purpose in
the discussion. My purpose in making the argument the way I did was to
show that there is a valid intellectual approach to the Writings that
does not discard its mystical content, It would be absurd to dismiss
those who appreciate, "The Seven Valleys", for example, by saying
they're just the "Rock of Ages" types. The Valley of Unity, in that
extraordinary work suggests to me that there is purpose in everything.
4). As for the charge of anti-intellectualism--give me a break your not
the only person who thinks around here. To imply that people who believe
in the Guidance of Baha'u'llah are taking an uncritical approach to the
subject and relying on that notion simply as a crutch because they need
to have a "rock" of faith or a rock for their faith is very revealing of
a certain attitude.
And in conclusion why do we have to always invoke something French when
we want to be rude? (Joke)
Please don't label me a Francophobic!!!
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 23:36:57 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
Subject: Political Views
Fri, 12 Jan 1996 13:52:17 -0600 (CST) Robert Lee Green
posted *Re: help save Sesame Street (fwd)* from Kazemzadeh, Allegra
and the author was Alex Blakeson at USBNC
The post said in part:
>In a good cause...
By your judgement.
>PBS, NPR (National Public Radio), and the arts are facing major
>cutbacks in funding. In spite of the efforts of each station to
>reduce spending costs and streamline their services, the government
>officials believe that the funding currently going to these programs is
>too large a portion of funding for something which is seen as
>"unworthwhile". Currently, taxes from the general public for PBS equal
>$1.12 per person per year, and the National Endowment for the Arts
>equals $.64 a year in total.
The point is not how much, or little the amount is, but rather that it goes
to support a biased political standard of programing.
>The only way that our representatives can be
>aware of the base of support for PBS and funding for these types of
>programs is by making our voices heard. Please add your name to this
>list if you believe in what we stand for.
Well, how about circulating a petition for those who do not want PBS or NPR
to be supported by public money? Just for the sake of fairness and even
handedness if nothing else.
> This list will be forwarded
>to the President of the United States, the Vice President of the United
>States, and Representative Newt Gingrich, who is the instigator of the
>action to cut funding to these worthwhile programs.
*Instigator* --- that sounds awfully negative about a representative of our
government. I thought Baha'is were supposed to be politically neutral and
*not* work for a political agenda --- only vote in elections.
>Forward this to everyone you know, and help us to keep these programs
>alive.
>Thank you.
And this comes from Alex Blakeson at USBNC --- I presume that is the United
States Baha'i National Center. Is that correct? If so, this solicitation
is IMHO even more shameful.
I know this was posted a few days ago, but I had to cool down before I wrote
this or the level of *explitives* that would have been deleated would have
made this post look like a piece of swiss cheese.
One more thought: The title of the post was *help save Sesame Street*. As
far as that goes Sesame Street *makes* *millions* of dollars. not only
do they not need saving, for is PBS folded they would go to a commercial
station, it would not suprrise me if they could afford to pick up the tab
for all of PBS.
I have heard a lot on Talisman about the Baha'i Administration and its
functioning. Here is IMHO a perfect example of starting down a slippery
slope --- to what? God only knows.
Doug Myers
nightbrd@humboldt1.com
"Nothing surives but the way we live our lives." JB
=END=
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 23:36:29 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu, jwalbrid
From: nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
Subject: Understanding the Word of God and a Universal Auxiliary Language
Dear John and all Talismanians,
John asked:
>>>Sorry to impose on you all again, but does anybody know
>>>
>>>1) Whether, and if so where, there is a source saying that the obligatory
>>>prayers may be said aloud or silently.
I responded with several references and quotes from the Aqdas wherein the
word "recite"or a variation thereof was used. And:
>>To me "reciting" a prayer can only mean saying it aloud. If I am in a
>>position where others may be close and I want privacy I recite the prayer
>>"under my breath" but i do vocalize it.
>>
>>These are the most obvious quotes though there are others that give support
>>including the Prayer for the Dead, which is an obligarory prayer, and the
>>verse recited when a traveler was unable to offer an obligatory prayer.
To which John replied:
>Alas, it doesn't quite solve the problem. When I originally wrote the
>thing I was editing, I seem to have had a text specifically addressing
>the question of reciting the obligatory prayer silently, since it is not
>something I would have made up. (Likewise, I would not extrapolate from
>"recite" to "recite out loud" without knowing the underlying source for
>the Aqdas editors.)
>
>Thanks though.
>
>john walbridge
Now, here comes the conundrum --- with a serious scholar saying: "I would
not extrapolate from "recite" to "recite out loud" without knowing the
underlying source for the Aqdas editors" what does that bode for anyone
anywhere reading a translation of any of Baha'u'llah's or 'Abdu'l-Baha's
works who is trying to fully and deeply understand the Holy Text?
I, somewhat, understand the the power, beauty, and precision of the English
language (though I have one friend who says it is imprecise and favors
Esperanto), which in general respects, can be said of many languages (I have
had flirtations with Latin and Spanish --- and like most flirtations, they
didn't last long).
What does John's interest in "knowing the underlying source for the Aqdas
editors" mean? I've heard it said by a Moslim that the *only* way to truly
understand the Qur'an is to read it in Arabic since all translations are
just the translator's *understanding* of the Qur'an and not the true word of
God. Is this the case with our Writings? How is a poor country bumpkin
like me to fully understand and plumb the depths of the ocean of God's Word
if what I'm reading is only a reflection of was written? This is not to
denegrate the work of the dedicaed scholars who worked on these
translations, including of course, Shoghi Effendi.
Does this mean that to get where I want to go, to ". . . read the writings
of Baha'u'llah and the Master so thoroughly as to be able to give it to
others in its pure form." that I must do that reading in Arabic and Persian?
I have heard it said, though I know not the source, that mankind will choose
whatever
language it will use as the auxiliary language but that if it was Arabic it
would be pleasing to God.
Please enlighten this poor servant.
Doug Myers
nightbrd@humboldt1.com
"Nothing survives but the way we live our lives." JB
=END=
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 00:03:08 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: "Stephen R. Friberg"
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Hallaj
Dear Stephen--
It's good to have you back on Talisman, and, I must say, it was a real
pleasure to meet you in person (and your saintly father) when you were out
here last month. One of these days I'll just have to come out to Japan and
reciprocate the visit :-)
Anyway...you've raised some good points, especially in the postscript.
You said:
> ....I want to reconcile
> all of this mystic thought with the de-emphasis on formal mysticism
> that, mistakenly or not, I see in the Baha'i revelation.
Mistakenly, I believe the formal mystical aspect of the Bahai Faith, for
some reason unbeknownst to yours truly, has been de-emphasized in this
century. If, however, by formal mysticism you mean shaykhs,
gurus, Zen masters, murshid/murid relationship, tariqa rules & adab, etc., I
think it has been de-emphasized for good reason. Baha'u'llah's vision of
mystical praxis, as Juan has enumerated many times on this list (and to
me privately in great length), is a radical one involving the
dialectical interplay between an individual mysticism within a
communal framework -- at least this how I've understood it, but I could be
wrong. This has its antecedents, moreover, in the thought of Mulla
Sadra. Mulla Sadra in many of his works condemns the "sufis" of his time as
charlatans, dealers in fake mysticism and superstition -- he's primarily
thinking of the antinomian Qalandars, status seeking murshids,
sword-swallowing Qadiris, but especially he's lamenting the rigidity
within the Tariqas of his time (I wonder if there was also "opium
smoking" sufis back then; does anyone know?). But you must understand
that the Orders had greatly atrophied by the Safavid period and had become
hotbeds for all sorts of corruption and trouble making.
The Path of Perfection for Sadr al-Muti'allihin -- and to some extent
even with Ibn `Arabi -- can be treaded independantly and fully
realized without all the unnecessary formalities, albeit full entry
upon the path must be preceded by rigorous philosophical training as well
as internal purification (Sadra is basically in agreement with Suhravardi
here). Baha'u'llah pretty much agrees with this, minus the training in
philosophy part.
> You see, I now know now that the Ayatollah Khomeini was an
> "erfan" teacher, a teacher of Islamic mysticism.
I see you've been reading Roy Mottahedeh's _Mantle of the Prophet_ (a
superb historical narrative, if I do say so myself). Khomeini began and
built his career at the Feyzieh in Qom teaching Avicenna, Ibn `Arabi,
Sadruddin Qunawi, Mulla Sadra & his commentators -- in other words,
hikmat/irfan. In fact, one of the earliest treatises he composed was a
commentary on Sadruddin Qunawi's *Fukuk* (itself a commentary on Ibn
`Arabi's *Fusus al-Hikam*) but also a Divan of highly ecstatic (and very
erotic) mystical poetry, in the same genre as Hafez, Awhadoddin Kirmani &
Fakhroddin `Iraqi, replete with references to "longing," "the Beloved's
tresses & face," "moles on cheeks," "drunkenness," "wine," "wine cups"
and "stained shirts." But this was the younger, radical Khomeini. As he
grew older, however, while still a major instructor of these texts
throughout most of his life, there's a sharp de-emphasis in
his thought on this dimension of Islam and a move towards a more
reactionary, conservative *exoteric* weltanschauung with a tinge of
radical third-worldism. I believe Khomeini went through a personal
metamorphasis for the worse, thus becoming the very thing he condemned as
a youth: an exoteric, "fiqh-minded" mulla. There's a very interesting
article you might want to check out by Alexander Knysh that supercedes
Mottahedeh on Khomeini's irfan mysticism: _Khomeini and the legacy of
Islamic mystical philosophy_.
> Are all the
> Talisman Baha'is going to rush off to the Bosch mysticism
> conference and become Ayatollahs?
I trust this a rhetorical question and your being facetious, but in case
you're being serious, then this faulty reasoning on your part --
sorry, had to point it out! -- and just as absurd as me saying that *all*
homosexuals (or transvestites) are lying, corrupt psycho-pathological
power-mongers like the former director of the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover -- a
totalizing statement & a Red Herring argument, to say very the least.
Some bad apples *do not* qualify the fruit of an entire tree (and Sufism
is no exception to this rule). Furthermore, most mystics/esoterics
throughout history -- with the exception of contemporary dogmatic
Guenonians -- have been through and through radicals. Read Louis
Massignon's account of Hallaj and then come back and tell me Mansur was a
crypto-fascist, or Ayn al-Quzat a reactionary.
> Similar questions arise about
> Heidegger, an avowed supporter of German National Socialism, and
> the foremost modern philosophical proponent of "being" oriented
> thought close in spirit to Sufi mystical thinking.
>
Not being a very big fan of Martin Heidegger or his weltanschauung, my
meditations on his *Zeit und Sein* (Being and Time) have convinced me
beyond a reasonable doubt that the Heideggerian conception of Being
(das sein) has nothing in common with Sufi or any other sapiential
teachings on the question. His idea of Being is in fact *not* a very
elevated one, contrary to what some people think. If the reverse were the
case then he wouldn't have so misrepresented and lambasted against the
Platonic conception of Being as represented in the *Paramenides* & the
*Republic*. In the final analysis, Heidegger's Being is nothing more than
a sophisticated version of a Jungian *collective unconscious* argument --
a silly, pseudo-philosophical notion which I'm not a very big fan of
either. For Heidegger "Being" equals the human mass and everything contained
therein (and that's it). How this is even remotely close to resembling Mulla
Sadra or the Akbarian notions of wujud (not to mention the Eckhartian
one which some are now claiming is the real source behind Heidegger's
inspiration, and, IMO, is sheer nonesense) is quite beyond me. Perhaps
some of the terminological formulations are similar, but that's about all;
Heidegger's famous locution "language is the house of Being" *is not* and
*should not* be taken in any way as an analogue to a mystical logos
theology of Being -- this simply is not the case and is just bad comparative
philosophy of the Fritjof Capra *Tao of Physics* variety. I strongly suggest
you read Eric Voegelin (start with his _Anamnesis_). IMHO, even Jean
Paul-Sartre's concept of Being is closer to the Sufi -- especially the
one he alludes to in his novel *Nausea* -- than Heidegger's.
On certain religious-esoteric figures in this century being
associated with fascism: alas, this to be lamented and is, IMV, a
betrayal of ideals. However, bad apples are everywhere -- as
you well know. For instance, despite my high regard for the
perennialists, I completely reject their reactionary political agenda
(medievalist monarchism) as well as their neo-traditionalism. As for me, I
follow Hallaj's vision of christic radicalism -- the transformation of
society through the deification of each individual.
Regards,
Nima
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 96 09:40:44 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: sociobiology
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Juan, I think that you are trying to rid the world of an important area of
study because it does not fit into the way you view the world. Any idea can be
exagerated or distorted. This is constantly happening. But to just discard
the idea because of the possibility it might be handled by the wrong person is
to do it terrible disservice. I don't see that the ideas of sociobiology will
inevitably lead to racism, sexism, etc. They might help us - especially if
viewed in a larger perspective - in figuring out human nature. God knows we
need all the help we can get. No one discipline or philosophy has ever
answered all the questions. Sociobiology won't answer everything but it can be
part of the puzzle.
I am sure you will disagree, but I have a real problem with rejecting ideas
because they don't fit into either a liberal or a conservative view of life.
We close our eyes to an awful lot of things because of this attitude. Linda
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 11:39:54 +0000 (GMT)
From: Robert Parry
To: talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: re: 16 crucified saviours
would messrs Kollins and Maguire resend their e mail addresses to me as
my postings to them are coming back.
thanks
robert p
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 09:39:15 -0500 (EST)
From: George Gary
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: Questions on teaching etc
A few thoughts about entry by troops.
The earliest history of the Faith is filled with stories of entry
by troops. We are talking here as a result of that teaching.
A lot of the early administration was old-style in the sense that
consolidation/deepening was by respected individuals. Some of these
individuals were not motivated by the highest motives and were later
declared covenant breakers, but inspite of that many of the people
they taught remained firm in the faith.
We now have many more examples of entry by troops and successful
consolidation. We need to study them and consult on the methods
that would be successful in our areas.
It interesting to note that each time the Guardian announced a new
plan, many of the Baha'is of that time were staggered by the goals.
They couldn't imagine how they could possibly accomplish the goals,
but they did accomplish those goals each time.
Even in areas where "successful" consolidation was not accomplished,
many wonderful things happened that simply would not have happened
if the Baha'is hadn't made the effort(as feeble as it may have been).
An example that I witnessed.
A year after coming home from Vietnam I went to Sough Carolina to
help with one of the consolidation conferences. The response to
the direct teaching had overwhelmed the Baha'is. An example where
we were unprepared for the results of the divine power waiting to
be released in our aid. We were sent out in teams to try to
identify the Bahai's in local towns. In our case there were two
teams of two people sent to a particular town. We were asked to
simply walk down the street and ask the people where the Baha'is were.
The original teams had left the "red record of Baha'i songs and prayers"
and deepening materials with the Baha'is. There was a small boy
playing in the yard of the first house. I asked if there were
any Baha'is living in his house. He said "Yes, my grandmother is
a Baha'i". He invited us into the house. At that moment the
grandmother was playing the little red record. Strains of "Oh Baha'u'llah!"
could be heard as we entered the house. You might imagine the
beauty of the moment. The little boy introduced us to the grandmother
as Baha'is. She broke down in tears. Like myself who became a Baha'i
just before going to Vietnam, she had gone a year without seeing
another Baha'i. She broke down in tears. She was so happy to see us.
After a few minutes of prayers and fellowship, It was like being
transported back in time to the time of the Dawnbreakers. Although
she had very little deepening materials to learn about the Faith,
it was immediately evident that her faith and understanding were far
deeper than ours. It seemed at the time that we with our
"deepened knowledge" of the Faith do not have the right to deprive
these presious souls who are all around us of the blessing of knowing
about the Baha'u'llah.
By the way, after this 10 minutes of heaven, a member of the other
team knocked on the door and surprised us. He said the police were
outside and wanted to talk to us. We said goodbye to that wonderful
lady and went to talk to the police. They said we had to leave the
town and couldn't come back without a permit from the town council.
We gave hime pamphlets about the Faith and about obedience to government.
We explained that we were only visiting members of our own Faith.
This frightened us. That policeman seemed to my prejudiced mind like
the classic stereotype of a southern sherrif. Oh how small is our
imagination. How small is our Faith. We got in the car to leave town.
We decided we couldn't leave without saying prayers and asking for
guidance. After prayers and consultation, we decided to visit the
sherriff's office. Wonder of wonders! There was the sherriff reclining
in a wooden chair with his cowboy boots on a wooden rail. It was
like seeing a scene in OK-Corral. The difference was that the sherriff
was reading the Baha'i pamphets when we walked in. We stayed about
45 minutes talking to the sherrif and his men about the Faith.
A final note.
Now that we know that the 4 year plan calls for entry by troops as
a main component, we cannot imagine how we will accomplish it! Sounds
to me that we are reacting as the Baha'is always reacted to the
amazing plans of the Guardian. Again we think the American Baha'ii'
community does not have the spiritual maturity and dedication to follow
through to win the goals set for us by the "Center to which all must
turn".
When we went on that trip we were not especially full of faith or even
very mature. We were shown the work which Baha'u'llah and the heavenly
hosts had already done.
Perhaps our community and many of its institutions are not very mature.
It's important to be concerned about this, but not so much concerned that
we close ourselves to the promised divine assistance. Indeed we are
in great need of divine assistance. At a recent fireside given by
a native american elder, every time I tried to get serious and talk
to him, he smiled and told a joke. Sometimes we take ourselves too
seriously. He commented to me that it seemed as if "Baha'u'llah had
taken his servents from the dreggs of the earth to show his power to
transform us". Indeed, Shogi Effendi said we were not named the "Champion
builders of the New World Order" because of our innate capacity. Just
the opposite. So it's not surprising that we have conflicts and even
evidence of immaturity. It's very important to consult on these matters.
But as the Guardian said we should encourage each other.
We always have tests in meeting the goals. Since the maturity of the
institutions is supposed to conicide with the Lesser Peace, it not
surprising that one of the tests now relates to the maturity of the
institutions. Actually, you might say the the Master fortold it when
he associated the maturity of the institutions with the Lesser Peace.
But so far the American Baha'i Community has met the goals of the
previous plans. We should be confident that a new outpouring of
divine grace will enable us to meet these twin tests of the new plan:
entry by troops and maturing of the institutions.
Love to you all
=END=
Date: 12 Jan 96 10:38:15 EST
From: "Mary K. Radpour" <73074.1221@compuserve.com>
To: Burl Barer
Cc: Talisman
Subject: anti-semitism.
Dear Burl,
This is perhaps too pollyannaish an interpretation and one which
discounts anti-semitism among Baha'is, but has it ever occurred to you that the
one questioning the use of the Jewish community center might have been one of
those Baha'is who has spent years explaining to their friends that Baha'i is not
the same as B'nai? I confess that as one of those who has offered that
explanation endlessly, I would have some small worry that a Baha'i Center in a
Jewish Center would multiply the number of such inquiries. It pains me to have
heard reservations about race and class and age in the Baha'i community, but I
rejoice that I have never heard anti-Semitism expressed.
I am happy to hear that worry did not dictate your ultimate conclusion,
however....I look forward to hearing "hava nagila" again offered as a Baha'i
song.
Love, Mary K
=END=
From: AGhosh@uh.edu
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 11:09:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Worship Meetings
To: talisman@indiana.edu
I think it's imperative to START as many worship meetings as possible.
I think it's unrealistic and too demanding to force everybody to a
center, house of worship or whatever which requires a large disruption
in their schedules. Let's have them wherever we can get together with
however many people as possible. In the work-places and campuses, in the
dinner-tables and clubs and OF COURSE at the house of worships.
Love
Arindam
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 13:20:01 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: sociobiology?
Dear talismans,
Eric says
>> A while ago,
(during the debate over evolution and homosexuality?) Juan
mentioned that he is down on sociobiology. Is anyone besides
me interested in asking him to elaborate?
Juan is probably down on it because it is a reductionist theory which
oversimplifies human behavior into a nature-nurture system. This is a
criticism which applies equally to most behavioral theories which are not
informed by the spiritual dimension
However, as seekers of truth, we can certainly examine the body of findings
of various fields and apply them to our understanding of the purpose of human
life.
Best,
Sandy
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 96 08:38 PST
To: "Mary K. Radpour" <73074.1221@compuserve.com>
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: anti-semitism.
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
>has it ever occurred to you that the
>en one of
>those Baha'is who has spent years explaining to their friends that Baha'i
is not
>the same as B'nai?
I am the only one I know who ever explained that to anyone...and that was
in a big city where people had heard B'nai. Here, the only such confusion
is if your name is Angus, you might be taken for a cow.
Burl
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 09:43:51 +1300 (NZDT)
To: belove@sover.net, talisman@indiana.edu, Don Peden
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: RE2: forgiveness
Dear Philip and Bev,
Great dialogue.
Robert.
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 03:36:11 -0500
To: sadra@rt66.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Hallaj
Dear Nima ,
A couple of qiuck comments . Iam thrilled that someone here finally had
the nerve , verve , or just plain cahunas to point out that heidegger is low
level stuff compared to ibn Arabi et al . I could not agree more that his
notion of being is analogous to some collective unconscious. That the 20th
century thinks he is some greast philospher is , in my not so humble opinion
, a testimony to the spiritual impoverishment of the age. He was a through
and through anti modernist engaged in a cerebral version of a rom,antic
rebellion. furthermore he did not have the good sense to go "mad "as did
Neitsche . Instead he supoerted Hiltler and the "volk" . Now that is true
"being" .
On mysticism amd community . i think there is an instructive example
here in my favorite institution the Mashriqu l Adhkar. Obligatory prayer may
be said according to Abdul Baha in private or in the gathering place. We
have the choice . It is however an individual obligation but may be performed
in commmunity but not in congregation . This places the emphasis on the
individual and the choice of the individual yet creates a community context
within which this may occur. Aa for deification of the individual I think
Abdul Baha's statement that "In reality the radiant pure hearts are the
Mashriqu l Adhkar .. ' points to this reality . This is the irreducible
reality of the human *person* and as such partakes of the divine . We are
each of us ,a House of Worship.
Stephen welcome back . Also read David Bohm _ Unfolding Meaning : A
Weekend of Dialogue With David Bohm _ I think you will find in it a pathway
to mystical meaning accessible to a physicist by a physicist whom we both
agree was a modern hero . He also wanted to distance himself from much of
what pased as ":mysticism" and never confused the Tao of physics with
ultimate meaning . I think you will find he had a strong sense of what we
might call "Irfan "
Hope we can continue this thread somwehow . You might induce me yet to
talk about what you called my "fana * experience . :) And we know I dont
have strong leanings to the right or medieval monarchies. I suspect Bah u
llah is the Prophet of Post Modernity; a world beyond and the other side of
modernity but that builds on it not dismantles it .
warm regards ,
terry
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 10:19:05 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: "Richard C. Logan"
Cc: George Gary , talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Manifestation and Prophets of God
This discussion, I fear, rests on several misapprehensions.
1) by "book" the Qur'an and the Babi-Baha'i schemas do not mean that the
prophet sat down and wrote it. Moses's revelation was largely oral; so
was that of Jesus; *so was that of Muhammad*, who was illiterate and
whose followers memorized the surahs he revealed and later wrote them
down on the shoulder blades of camels & etc. Jesus's *logia* are what is
referred to as *the Book*, and the Qur'an says the Christians have a book
(maktuban `indahum). "Book" seems to refer to a set of teachings
collected together that abrogate a previous dispensation, whether oral or
written.
2) The word "manifestation of God" (mazhar-i ilahi) was not used in
Arabic and Persian Shi`ite theology, nor in Babi-Baha'i scriptures, to
refer solely to the Prophets Endowed With Constancy or the Revealers of a
divinely inspired Book. The phrase was considered apposite of *all* holy
figures. Thus, Imams are routinely referred to as Manifestations of
God. The narrowing of the term to mean High Prophets is a phenomenon of
the Western Baha'i community. Thus, there is no problem about Quddus
being a manifestation of God; all the Letters of the Living were, in this
sense. But Quddus was not a Prophet Endowed with Constancy.
3) When Baha'u'llah says that were he to be killed another would be sent
by God to take his place, this does not logically imply that another
Prophet Endowed with Constancy would be sent. Baha'u'llah conceived of
his mission as primarily the facilitation of humankind's acquisition of
perfections. Obviously, this was also `Abdu'l-Baha's mission, even
though `Abdu'l-Baha did not have the station of a prophet. Function and
station are two different things.
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 11:02:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: LWALBRID@CLUSTER.UCS.INDIANA.EDU
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: sociobiology
Linda: My philosophical opposition to sociobiology does not imply that I
oppose research in human genetics; quite to the contrary. What I am
opposing is a category error. Chemical interactions at a molecular level
cannot be explained by subatomic physics. Biology cannot be explained by
chemistry alone. And human society cannot be explained only or even
mainly with regard to biology.
The problem is that scientists are used to asking "why *must* the world
be as it is?" It would not be satisfactory to ask "what set of accidents
might have resulted in this possible world as opposed to other possible
worlds?" The laws of physics have to be universal to be true.
So biologists when they think on a macro level tend to ask "Why must
human society be as it is?" And "as it is" means patriarchal,
white-dominated, highly class-stratified, etc., etc. So the answer to a
question posed this way inevitably seeks, in almost functionalist
fashion, to justify the status quo.
In the human sciences we are more open to fluidity of causation and
result, to accident and contingency and irony. Because our subject,
human beings, is the most complex known subject in the universe.
Studying humans as though they were billiard balls or ants is silly. We
also know that genes are not fate, that humans' cultural endowments can
lead them to develop behaviors (like celibate monasticism) that actually
contradict everything their genes tell them to do (procreate!).
Stephen Jay Gould has spent much of the past 20 years battling
sociobiology; so it is not only we outside the field who think it
wrong-headed.
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 10:21:02 -0600 (CST)
From: ARINDAM GHOSH
Subject: Happy news, questions on teaching etc
To: talisman@indiana.edu
The happy news is that my advisor has agreed that I should graduate this
semester. The happier news is that it means that I can get married in
May. While I go off again to consecrecate((-:) myself to the alter of
dissertation I just share my final musings on questions of teaching.
The level of massive expansion called upon by the House do necessitate
the "perpetual evengelizing machines" derided upon by some beloved
members. It also necessitates the construction of "houses of worship",
though for the life of me I cannot figure out why the centers cannot
serve as the houses of worship. To me it's only the attitude in our
minds. But if some beloved memebers feel that it has to be house of
worship--so be it.
It has been time and again said teaching cannot go on without consolidation
However it also has been said teaching CANNOT be stopped in the name of
consolidation. If we can and we should implement the whole plan. But we
must be forgiving to ourselves and our communities. I look at it this way
if I give somebody the message, if he has the drive he can always deepen
himself. It would be great if there is a loving soul to nurture him. But
I just cannot stop giving him the message because there would be nobody
to nurture. Afterall it's Bahaullah who nurtures but it's WE who give the
message.
To me it is a reflection of the first verse in Aqdas: recognition of
the Manifestation and obedience to its laws, one is not acceptatble
without the other. Teaching and consolidation, one is not acceptablle
without the other. Still recognition comes first in this you know.
That's all. I will pick up my cudgel another day
Love
Arindam
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 96 09:16 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Happy news, questions on teaching etc
>
Arindam Ghosh, on his way to the alter, said:
I look at it this way if I give somebody the message, if he has the drive
he can always deepen himself. It would be great if there is a loving soul to
nurture him.
Burl replies: The person who taught me the Faith said that he was
responsible for me (much like a parent) until I could teach on my own -- he
would "release" me once I gave my first month of firesides. I think that is
a very healthy and productive attitude. You don't "teach 'em & leave 'em" --
in the spiritual realms there are no "one night stands"
Burl
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
From: AGhosh@uh.edu
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 10:53:41 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re; questions on teaching
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Eric wrote:
I would certainly suggest though that before inviting people in we put our
house in order. The problem is that the Bahais do not want to change. We have
established a minimum level of involvement and personal change that is
sufficient to keep our conscience OK and at the same time perfect for
scaring away new people. Since the new Bahais will usually be scared away
before elections this process is perfectly self maintained.
I think the House has mercifully and lovingly taken away this comfort-zone.
Our obedience to the covenant next four years will be measured in our terms
of implementing entry-by-troops through teaching and consolidation. Certainly
not inaction in either the hope that a Catastrophe will make everybody Bahai
or that the communities are beyond redemption.
Love
Arindam
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 96 23:33:17 PST
Subject: Re: More on forgiveness
To: talisman@indiana.edu, Doug Myers
On Thu, 11 Jan 1996 15:44:54 -0800 Doug Myers wrote:
>Humility is such an ellusive quality because it is not one of the
qualities
>of God.
This is an astounding observation. It stopped me cold. Is that true?
I love your whole posting, but this part really stood out. Thanks
Philip
And in being such it is the only true gift we can give God. We
>have 'Abdu'l-Baha as our exemplar of humility, along with all the
>attributes of God. What would 'Abdu'l-Baha do?
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/11/96
Time: 23:33:17
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 96 08:35:40+030
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: genes
Dear Juan:
I have a hard time seeing spiritual attributes as part of a gene structure.
I think I see human development in terms of spiritual awareness and
practice, and environment. The questions which come to my mind may be based
on misunderstanding, and so let me ask my questions if I may, and see if I
am understanding the issue correctly.
1. Is a gene a physical reality, or is it spiritual?
2. If a gene is physcial, then how can it (and its attributes) survive death?
3. If a gene is not physical, but spiritual in nature, does that lend
credence to a physical resurrection (tongue in cheek here).
4. If the attribute is separate from the gene, then is there a
relationship? Have we seen these spiritual attributes under a microscope?
Or are we identifying them on basis of seeing the results of an unseen force?
5. When Abdu'l-Baha referred to some people being born with the capacity to
not do "wrong" (forgive the paraphrasing), is there anything in that
reference which indicates he was referring to a physical attribute or a
spiritual one?
6. Please note that questions 2 to 5 are dependant on the answer to question 1.
Thanks for your patience,
Love,
Bev.
=END=
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 23:32:53 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Manifestation and Prophets of God, again
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Robert Johnston" ,
"Doug Myers" , ,
Dear Robert,
I never called Him a major manifestation. If you will read my posts you
should see this. However, I was analyzing the implications.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
From: SSchaut@aol.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 18:25:56 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Short Biography
Just so everyone is aware of how short my biography is, I'm 5 ft. 2 inches.
I became as Baha'i in 1965, in Wisconsin, and I'm still in wisconsin. If
anyone knows me they would connect me with the Green Lake Conference. This
year I'll be able to attend as an attendee for the first time in just a few
years. I've been married for enough years to have an adult son, very special
daughter-in-law and two grandchildren. I am an investigator for the state,
investigating health care professionals, (doctors, dentists, etc) to see if
action should be taken against their license to practice.
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 11:37:50 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Unraveling Mysteries
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Juan Cole" , "Talisman"
Juan writes:
>This discussion, I fear, rests on several misapprehensions.
Your disquisition was well understood by me. I wonder at, though, a
literalism that seeks to stifle attempts to unravel certain mysteries.
Whether one is successful or failed in these attempts, I think it would
be preferable to a simple repetition of agreed upon facts, as in the case
of a catechism or the Apostles Creed which later becomes a stumbling
block to true understanding.
Naturally, and let me add this disclaimer, NO BAHA'I DURING THIS
DISPENSATION CAN CLAIM A DEFINITIVE INTERPRETATION, (I am not shouting
here just being emphatic) but one can still make attempts at broadening
or stretching one's understanding so to elucidate as opposed to parroting
the verities of the faith. I know this appears to be dangerous ground,
but I don't think Baha'is should be fearful of this terrain because these
attempts MIGHT add to the body or culture of Baha'i understanding.
Baha'u'llah asks us to "Immerse" ourselves in the ocean of His words.
How often does Baha'u'llah ask us to "ponder" or " meditate upon" a
particular point so that we can understand it or unravel its mysteries?
The facts of the Writings and history are available to all in many
instances but it is up to each of us to place them in a richer context.
Adib Taherzadeh's four volume series is an excellent case in point. His
metahistory-commentary does much to convey the Iranian culture of
understanding as it relates to the Faith. A culture of understanding is
dynamic and as such evolves with the contributions of scholars, thinkers,
and mystics.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 10:33:23 -0700 (MST)
From: SALVATORE E INDIOGINE
To: AGhosh@uh.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Re; questions on teaching
Dear Arindam:
It seems that, like Kamram Hakim would say, we are in 'violent
agreement'.
On Fri, 12 Jan 1996 AGhosh@uh.edu wrote:
> I think the House has mercifully and lovingly taken away this comfort-zone.
Certainly, as well as all the Holy Writings and the letters of the Guardian.
> Our obedience to the covenant next four years will be measured in our terms
> of implementing entry-by-troops through teaching and consolidation. Certainly
> not inaction in either the hope that a Catastrophe will make everybody Bahai
This is an other silly idea that is floating around in our Bahai
communities. That we actually do not have to do anything and one day we
will wake up and have people knocking at our door asking to become Bahais.
The EBT statement of the UHJ thouroughly takes care of this absurd belief.
This belief seems to be coupled to and other silly belief that a
catastrophy will make people want to become Bahais. Would it not make
more sense that people would just become more fervent Christians,
Muslims, Hindus, whatever? That is what actually happens in the case of
catastrophies.
On the other hand, if we understand the catastrophy to be the patent
inability of todays ways of life to be productive for our planet, then we
have a godd key to have people become Bahais, provided we give them the
Message and show them in our lifes how this Message ought to work.
In both these aspects we are lamentably defective.
> or that the communities are beyond redemption.
Certainly not. We have the Writings and the UHJ as well as the spiritual
assistance from the Worlds of God.
Bye,
Eric Indiogine (sindiogi@nmsu.edu), Dept. Civil, Agricultural,
and Geological Engineering, New Mexico State University,
Las Cruces, New Mexico, U.S.A.
## True loss is for him whose days have been ##
## spent in utter ignorance of his self ##
-* Baha'u'llah, Words of Wisdom #21 *-
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 96 23:40:41 PST
Subject: FW: Re:Chomsky
To: talisman@indiana.edu
On Fri, 12 Jan 1996 12:25:11 +1300 (NZDT) Robert Johnston wrote:
>At 15:42 11/1/96, David Langness wrote:
>
>
>>At any rate, Sandy's reference to generative language formation reminded
>>me of a wonderful article carried in the popular press last year, in
>>which infants were found to have virtually similiar patterns of babbling,
>>pre-language formation expression across the cultural spectrum. Think
>>of it -- babies already have a universal language!
>
>
>Has anyone any more information on this. Sandy?
>
>Best,
>
>Robert.
>
>
From The Language Instinct by Steven Pinker, William Morrow and Company
1994
page 264
:Babies continue to learn the sounds of their language throughout the first
year. By six months they are beginning to lump together the distint sounds
that their language collapses into a single phoneme, while continuing to
discriminate equivalently distinct ones that their language keeps separate.
By ten months they are no longer universal phonetician but have turned into
their parents; they do not distinguish Czech or Inslekampx phonemes unless
they are Czech or Inslekampx babies. Babies make this transition before they
produce or understand words, so their learning cannot depend on correlating
sound with meaning. that is, they cannot be listening for the difference in
sound between a word they think means "bit" and a word they think means
"beet," becuase they have learned neither word. They must be sorting the
sounds directly, somehow tuning their speech analysis module to deliver the
phonemes used in their language. The module can then serve as the front end
of the system that learns words and grammar....
The infant is like a person who has been given a complicated piece of audio
equipent bristling with unlabled knobs and switches but missing the
instructions manual. In such situations people resort to what hackers call
frobbing -- fiddling aimlessly with the controls to see what happens. The
infant has been given a set of neural commands that can move the
aritculators every which way, with wildly varying effects on the sound. By
listening to their own babbling, babies in effect write their own
instruction manual; they learn how much to move which muscle in which way to
make which change in the sound. This is a prerequisite to duplicating the
speech of their parents. "
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/11/96
Time: 23:40:41
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A. Einstein
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 09:07:06 -0700 (MST)
From: SALVATORE E INDIOGINE
To: AGhosh@uh.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: re;questions on teaching
Dear friends:
I come from an Evangelical background and have always been confused by
these Bahais discussing about teaching. In the form of Christianity I
come from they discuss about many things but not about this. For a
Christian to oppose teaching is like to oppose Christ Himself.
I see that many problems arise from the following misunderstandings:
1. There is only 1 form of teaching, or, everybody should only teach
using the best method which is ...... (fill in the blank).
We know of coure that the UHJ has told us that there are as many forms of
teaching as there are people and that all are good as long as the dignity
of the Faith is upheld (EBT statement).
2. Every Bahai should be active in personal teaching. This is an
unrealistic expection that has torn apart many a community. It creates
incredible resentments on all sides. I think it is the most destructive
pathological behavior that the USA Bahai community has displayed.
Not all people have the character which is appropriate for personal teaching
and
those that do not should not be blamed, forced, ignored or worse. In
Christianity _all_ do partecipate in the teaching effort, but in many ways:
funding, administration, lodging, transportation, referrals, food,
prayer, encouragement, preparation and distribution of materials, and so
on. Why is it so difficult for Bahais to understand this! Puzzling......
3. Unrealistic expectation that each newly declared Bahai instantly is
totally connected to this New Revelation. In Christianity there is
usually a process of discipleship (evangelicals) or catechesis (catholics)
where the new believer is helped, encouraged, instructed, prayed with.
I have seen so many people take the easy route of saying that since in
the Faith there is no clergy each of us is responsible for her/his own
personal spiritual growth, end of the story, see ya later....
No, deepenings and feasts do not work. They have a very low
spirit/intellect ratio. Both are usually extreemely boring and replete
of so much jargon that a new Bahai must feel to be amidst aliens.
What about doing what Bahaullah is telling us in the KIA and have worship
meetings? What on earth are we waiting for?? It does not have to be
immediately a newly constructed building. Look at the 80 million Chinese
Home Churches which have been meeting in appartments for decades and have
grown and grown.
I have never understood why Bahais have to say lending library. That
makes as much sense as saying wet water. When we say 'station' I think
about a railway station, and when we say 'His Holyness' I think about the
Pope.........
4. Unrealistic expectations about the steadfastness of a declaration.
Have you guys ever read the parable of the farmer casting the seed??? The
famous Billy Graham crusades yield many sinners prayers, but not too many
church goers. Did this deter Billy Graham? Of course not, since he knew
that it was worth it and that he still was having an effect that was
compounded by other efforts and repetitions of his efforts. Look at the
phenomenal growth of the Evangelical Churches in Korea and Latin America.
If the fact id that there is a low percentage of declarants that become
active, do not blame the street teachers, but rather wake up and get a
grip. This is the real world. If this discourages us, them we have
understood very little about teaching. There is simply no way around.
The only other way is to stop teaching which is what most USA Bahais have
indeed been doing. The only perfect way to avoid making mistakes is
complete inaction.
We can not blame the street teachers for boring feasts and other Bahai
meetings, that is responsability of the LSA and Assistants. That does
not mean that the teachers should not be aware of its importance, but
that we should not expect them to take care of this aspect also.
I would certainly suggest though that before inviting people in we put our
house in order. The problem is that the Bahais do not want to change. We have
established a minimum level of involvement and personal change that is
sufficient to keep our conscience OK and at the same time perfect for
scaring away new people. Since the new Bahais will usually be scared away
before elections this process is perfectly self maintained.
I have teachers heard saying that they were teaching and enrolling
anyway in the hope that they could vote out of the LSA these frozen
Bahais. The problem was that they
were not able to do this since the trickle of new believers was scared
away before Ridvan and did not have the wish to partecipate in an
electoral process they did not feel anything for. Thus these teachers
could never obtain a critical mass for turnover and had to give up in
despair.
With all this said and done I think that mass teaching is essential as
much as the spiritual transformation of our personal lives and our
communties. They go hand in hand and we have to do it, if not for
ourselves for our children. And _please_ can we put in action the KIA?
Bye,
Eric Indiogine (sindiogi@nmsu.edu), Dept. Civil, Agricultural,
and Geological Engineering, New Mexico State University,
Las Cruces, New Mexico, U.S.A.
## True loss is for him whose days have been ##
## spent in utter ignorance of his self ##
-* Baha'u'llah, Words of Wisdom #21 *-
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 96 17:22:45 PST
Subject: RE: Forgiveness
To: talisman@indiana.edu, LuAnne Hightower
On Thu, 11 Jan 1996 16:51:09 -0500 LuAnne Hightower wrote:
>Allah-u-Abha, Philip.
>
>I'm with Alma. Call it detachment, call it containment of base
emotions,
>call it presence; call our necessary (ideal) response to being
wronged
>anything BUT forgiveness, which is not ours to give.
Thanks, Luan. I know you know my struggles around this issue first
hand. But these opening words are of little help and don't seem to
acknowledge something I think is terrible important.
Namely, there is a world of difference between our necessary and
Ideal response to being wronged and our actual, in fact, real
response to being wronged.
I'm not saying I am entitled to feel wronged. But I'm not saying I'm
not either. You know as well as I how difficult it has been to decide
whether my pain was legitimate or a tantrum.
I have no problems with any of these issues when I am on my most
Saintly behavior. The problem here is, as always, with my own
self-importance.
And sometimes, I imagine, it could be genuinely helpful to have a
friend say, "Now, Philip, don't be so self-important."
In such a circumstance
>where I find myself unable to step back from some judgement of
another, due
>to my perception of being wronged, I think that I should be praying
for
>forgiveness, not bestowing it. Or praying for perspective, or
detachment.
>Or praying that GOD forgive the individual who has visited some
(real) harm
>to me.
"Should," Luan. The key word in this argument is "should." What I
"should" be praying for.
The difficulty I have with this line of thinking, both from you and
Alma, is that you've defined "forgiveness" so that it is no longer a
human quality to be acquired. And all the other stuff we've been
talking about, being humble, sensitive but not reactive, the stuff of
forgiveness as I'm defining it, that all disappears.
There must be some way for you to make your point without making
forgiveness as a human process disappear.
One thing that happens for me is that, when I do "forgive" someone
who has hurt me, I then understand that it was my own
self-importance, and intolerance, all along that cause so much
trouble. But I've never attained that perspective until I've found a
way to work myself out of all the self-righteous anger.
My righteous indignation is always and indication to me that I am
>clinging to some distortion around the said event, whether it be
ascribing
>motive to the other person, or taking all too personally their
actions. How
>many times do we jump to point the finger at what is usually an act
of
>ignorance or thoughtlessness. How attached are we to our own hurts,
scars,
>suffering. What is the payoff?
I think we are agreeing on many key points. My focus here is on the
process by which we unattach from our own hurts. I'm calling that
process forgiveness.
I am analogizing forgiveness to the way emotional reactions become
smoothed out. I think this is an important nuance and it avoids the
very thing you and Alma are wishing to avoid, namedly, the
presumption that I make a moral judgement on another soul.
This is an essential feature of the way I'm trying to talk about
forgiveness and your objections certain underline the importance of
it.
If I were to start my presentation over, I might even start from the
point you an Alma make. What's wrong with the common way of
describing forgiveness, what's an advantage of trying to do it this
way.
>
>So, if the individual is a friend, I try to consult with them about
the
>behavior which caused me pain, AFTER I've had some time to reflect
on the
>alleged incident. If not a friend or colleague, I try not to be too
quick
>to judge. Why am I so eager to feel hurt? to judge? to condemn
the
>actions of others, when in the grand cosmic scheme of things, what
>difference does it make if someone interrupts me or whatever. There
is a
>compilation on health projects which has a brief sketch of Bahiyyih
Khanum
>(I believe). The statement is made to the effect that her
detachment was
>such that she never even took offense at the actions of others,
which were
>very often offensive - because she understood the state of
deprivation that
>people were in, the degree of unconsciousness, the fear that people
carry.
This does support part of my analysis of the process. I think, to be
thoughtful and forgiving ( or you'd prefer, "detached" -- and thank
you for that connection) one "understands the state of deprivation
people were in, the degree of unconsciousness, the fear that people
carry." So do I make that decision about people I know whose
behavior injures me, that they are unconscious, deprived and fearful?
Maybe so.
>I'll look it up when I get home and post it tomorrow.
>
>This is not to say that we shouldn't act to see that justice is done
in
>cases where there is clearly real harm that has been committed. But
that
>the focus we have in the personal interactions we have with those
around us
>have to do with our own shortcomings.
It has taken years of work for me to start to see the difficulties I
have with people near me as a sign of my own shortcomings. My
analysis has to do with what I've learned along the way. Not a high
level of spiritual knowledge to be sure, not advanced stuff, but
still something.
The Melami path of Sufism is the path
>of blame - the recognition that all good comes from God and all else
>originates inside of us (and other human beings, of course). They
never
>take credit for their own good actions, because they recognize that
any good
>they do comes only from their submission to the One. This is
humility.
>This is, I believe what is being spoken of in the following prayer
of the Bab:
>
>"...I have known Thee, O my god, by reason of Thy making Thyself
known unto
>me, for hadst Thou not revealed Thyself unto me, I would not have
known
>Thee. I worship Thee by virtue of Thy summoning me unto Thee, for
had it
>not been for Thy summons, I would not have worshiped Thee." Baha'i
Prayers
>p127 (US)
>
>and a prayer of Baha'u'llah:
>
>"Glorified ar Thou, O Lord my God! I yield Thee thanks for having
enabled
>me to recognize the Manifestaion of Thyself, and for having severed
me from
>Thine enemies, and laid bare before mine eyes their misdeeds and
wicked
>works in Thy days, and for having rid me of all attachment to them,
and
>caused me to turn wholly towards Thy grace and bountiful favors. I
give
>Thee thank, also, for having sent down upon me from the clouds of
Thy will
>that which hath so sanctified me from the hints of the infidels and
the
>allusions of the misbelievers that I have fixed my heart firmly on
Thee, and
>fled from such as have denied the light of Thy countenance. Again I
thank
>Thee for having empowered me to be steadfast in Thy love, and to
speak forth
>thy praise and to extol Thy virtues, and for having given me to
drink of the
>cup of Thy mercy that hath surpassed all things visible and
invisible. Thou
>art the Almight, the Most Exalted, the All-Glorious, the
All-Loving." Bahai
>Prayers p 123 (US)
>
>Notice that the prayers for forgiveness are not pleas for God to
help us
>forgive others. And under Families, prayers for God to forgive us,
our
>parents, etc.
>
>How many of us actually perform a diligent accounting of our daily
deeds?
>They are not very easy or pleasant to encounter, especially on a bad
day,
>but this simple act can keep us from taking the inventory of others
so
>readily. As long as we walk this earth, none of us if free from
mistakes
>and errors. The only chance for our community is to begin to
practice what
>is asked of us as Baha'is. This is the key to transformation.
Perhaps all
>of these apparent wrongs we perceive coming to us from the world
around us
>are the very means by which God severs us from the things of this
world. If
>we can let go of them and turn wholly unto Him, then we are at least
>beginning to walk on the path. May we all come to know the Mercy of
our Lord.
>
>Love,
>LuAnne
>
LuAnne.
I appreciate being reminded of these things. I hope one day to be
able to live that way. That's why I'm hanging in.
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/11/96
Time: 17:22:45
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 96 11:01:08 PST
Subject: RE: forgiveness
To: talisman@indiana.edu, Don Peden
Dear Bev.
All good things to consider here. You start out discussing "different
levels of forgiveness," but I can't see how you develop that thought
further. I'm be interested.
.
On Fri, 12 Jan 96 09:45:22+030 Don Peden wrote:
>Dear Philip:
>
>There has been some discussion as to whether we mortals have the right to
>forgive (as diminished an attribute as that may be since we are but a
>reflection of the attributes of God), or whether forgiveness is God's
domain.
>
>It occurs to me that there are different levels of forgiveness.
>
>There are references in the Writings to our need to forgive each other. I
>don't have time this morning (6:30 a.m. and I need to get to the gallery)
to
>research extensively, but I'll get the ball rolling and others can add.
>
>Lights of Guidance 311 "To Be Forebearing, Patient, Merciful, Rather than
>Succumbing to Backbiting and Criticism"
>
> "...You also ask what one should do to 'handle depression and anger
>with someone' one feels 'very positively about'. The Universal House of
>Justice suggests that you call to mind the admonitions found in our
Writings
>on the need to overlook the shortcomings of others, to forgive and conceal
>their misdeeds, not to expose their bad qualities, but to search for and
>affirm their praiseworthy ones, and endeavour to be always forbearing,
>patient, and merciful.
>
Bev.
I looked up forbearing in the Short OED
It means to bear, endure, submit to. To bear with, have patience with,
tolerate. To bear us aginst, control one's emotioms, but also to dispense
with, do without, give up, part with , lose, keep away from , leave along.
And it means to show mercy or indulgence to , to spare and in a rare Middle
English form to be patient.
quotes used to illustrate: His aspect was too wrteched to invite
conversation, and we forbore, therefore to ask him questions.
From Robert Graves: Forbearing from the jealousy that...he was convinced
that she must feel. The Bibl:
Chron. 35;12 Forebeaer thee from meddling with God.
The kindest and happiest pair Will find occasion to forbear.
Interesing also was the definition of forbearance: Abstinence from enforcing
what is due, especially payment of a debt. The action or habit of
forbearing. And forebearing conduct or spirt, patient endurance lenity. as
in "He behaved with great forbearance when I let his fire out.
Trust the Guardian for always Le Mot Juste.
>Another interesting quote:
>
>314 Lights of Guidance "Criticism a Calamity"
>
>..."Vicious criticism is indeed a calamity. But its root is lack of faith
>in the system of Baha'u'llah, i.e., the Administrative Order--and lack of
>obedience to Him--for He has forbidden it! If the Baha'is would follow the
>Baha'i laws in voting, in electing, in serving and in abiding by Assembly
>decisions, all this waste of strength through criticising others could be
>diverted into cooperation and achieving the Plan."
>(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual
>believer, December 18, 1949: Baha'i News, No. 233, p.2. July 1950)
>
>I don't know about anyone else, but this last quote certainly gives me a
lot
>to think about. Comes back to intent, but then obviously transcends intent
>as the naming of someone who is misbehaving is not allowed by Abdu'l-Baha,
>even if the one doing the naming feels they are doing so to protect the
>faith (Lights of Guidance, 311). Only within the confines of an Assembly
>can this be done...interesting.
>
>
>Love,
>
>Bev.
>
>P.S. Does anyone know anything about Prince Albert, Canada?
>
thanks again, Bev. It's been more enjoyable and enlightening.
|Philip
-----------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/12/96
Time: 11:01:08
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A. Einstein
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 96 07:47:40 PST
Subject: RE: Forgiveness
To: talisman@indiana.edu, Don Peden , 748-9178@mcimail.com,
Jim Blake <0006596916@mcimail.com>, wog@poseidon.usnus.abb.com
On Fri, 12 Jan 96 08:21:11+030 Don Peden wrote:
>Dear Philip:
>
>What an interesting response! Thank you, you have given me
somethings to
>think about. One thing I do have to comment on is how you came up
with the
>"wronged" partner in the marriage senerio being a woman. Is this
just a
>gender slip? Or did I make a gender slip? I had tried to keep it
generic,
>as I am sure there are just as many infidelities perpetrated by both
genders
>and did not want to get into identifying infidelity with one gender
or the
>other. Sorry if I didn't succeed. Hard to teach an old dog new
gender
>language, and as legitimate as the need for new language is, it
sometimes a
>real pain to erase 45 years of thinking and adopt a new
language...but I do try.
The slip may have been mine. Actually, I do have a bias here and I
tend to suspect more men of infidelity than women. Single women out
number single men in this area by some large ratio, maybe as much as
3 to 1. I know more single women who have had affairs with married men and
more married men who have been unfaithful. Frank Pittman, who wrote a book
called "Betrayal of Innocence," maybe one of the best books on Infidelity,
said that being unfaithful is a way to screw two people at the same time,
because both the cuckolded spouse and the liason are being betrayed. But
that's another thread.
>
>Regarding boundaries, you made a comment about a possible choice for the
>partner as being the setting of boundaries stating "I love you, I wish you
>well, but I believe I can't trust you again as my spouse, not for too long
a
>time, at least, and I want to go on with my life." This is one boundary,
>for sure, and claiming the right to expect fidelity from your lover has
>certainly come to the fore front in this century. In the past, infidelity
was
>perhaps accepted as part of relationships, and preferable to divorce. In
>this century that is being brought into question...with the result of many
>people demanding more fidelity, more honest relationships, more intimate
>contact with their mates beyond just a physical one. It is also reflected
>in our spiritual lives as we demand more intimate understanding and
>relationship with our faith. (No more letting the priestcraft decide what
>we should and should not know.)
>>However, to respond with such a strong limit has actually resulted in a
lot
>of promiscuity as people run from one partner to another looking for
>perfection. What we have lost in this new awareness is the ability to
>struggle with what you got!
>
come
>to far in gender partnership to suggest that. What I am suggesting is that
>such boundaries, "I believe I can't trust you again as my spouse, not for
>too long a time," may still be in the reaction stage, and needs, perhaps,
to
>be kept in the area of the spirit "buying time" to assess and work through
>sorting through what caused the breach of faith, what has been learned by
>both parties, and building a new relationship which can be stronger and
>based on solid trust which acknowledges humility and humanity for both
>partners.
>
I quite agree. And I think that couples who have worked their way back from
these crises also give witness to the greater depth of intimacy and strength
their marriages have acquired as a result of hanging in.
While some marriages may be quite easy, those who look at marriages
professionally will say that a significant proportion are not and require
tremendous efforts to keep them alive.
Scott Peck's last book, the one about Stones or something contains a humble
and reasonably complete confession of his peccadillos during his earlier
adulthood, during his celebrity. And in that same book, he had the grace to
say that, looking back on Road Less Traveled, some 25 years later, he was
embarrassed at it's glibness.
But Peck's marriage is one that survived such traumas and, in this last
book, I get a sense for the depth and wisdom of his wife and how that has
been a great influence on him.
I'm sure that a successful marriage is one of life's greatest spiritual
gifts and accomplishments.
And maybe the one place above all others where one learns humility and
forgiveness.
>This approach, by the way, is also setting an example for children of the
>marriage. This is not to say children should be party to the details of
the
>situation, or even necessarily have knowledge of the infidelity, unless the
>breach is so great that a separation is necessary. Even then, information
>on the infidelity may not be necessary to convey to the children. But
>children are aware that something is not right. And to see their parents
>taking steps to consult, to grapple with their feelings and to go forward
is
>a lesson of life, which they themselves will carry forward in whatever they
do.
>
>Back to the community, to bring the analogy up to that level. I believe
the
>same principles apply. They are going to look different, but they are
>underlyingly similar.
>
>When there is a breach of faith between the lovers of the "indivual and the
>institution", the "children/community" are distressed, affected and
>involved. They react the same way that many children in a marriage would
>act, "make it nice again, we want the security of the familiar to the
>insecurity of an unknown conclusion". The pressure can be on to "hurry up
>and relieve the anxiety of not knowing the conclusion", instead of
>recognizing the process of the spirit needing time to examine and feel all
>the necessary components to allow forgiveness and re-establishment of trust
>at a much deeper level. Perhaps one of the greatest gifts we can hope for
>is security in the process rather than needing security from the
conclusion.
This is a fascinating analogy! On the one hand we have the individual
believer, who may be a somewhat charismatic individual -- would sort of have
to be in order to raise a ruckous with one of the instutions -- and on the
other hand we have the institution, say, the NSA, or even the LSA.
Now these two get into some kind of charged disagreement. And that is
profoundly disturbing to the by-standers. It's like children watching their
parents fight and getting really afraid.
What children usually do is try to intervene, to take sides, to try to stop
it.
And what adults do (which is less forgiveable) is try to gain allies and
support from the children.
All this is because anxiety, or panic, is contagious. The spread of panic is
the sign of an unforgiving atmosphere. (Defining "forgiving-ness" as a kind
of self-soothing capacity. )
Bev, the connection I make here is with what a friend of mine said about the
believer's letter re-printed in the American Bahai. She said that when she
read the believers letter she found herself getting angry at the NSA.
Therefore, she said, the letter was inflamatory and shouldn't have been
printed.
So she didn't have "Security in the Process rather than Security in the
Conclusion."
This last is a key phrase, I'd think. "Security in the Process."
And parents can create this in their own families. You can tell the kids,
Mommy and I are having a terrible fight but we still love each other and
everything will be okay,but you have to let us work this out.
And the institutions could say, this believer and I are having a difficult
time finding accord on this matter, but we are both devoted to finding it.
However, I don't know that we have established that norm yet in our
communities.
Security in the Process.
>
>This might also be a good time to introduce the idea of the "science" of
>forgiveness. To engage in the process of forgiveness might lead one to the
>conclusion that conclusions in themselves are just new questions...the
>petrol which keeps movement happenings.
This is beautiful.
>This does not mean that we have to
>be in positions all the time to "forgive", that would be pretty stressful.
>But it is a connection worth exploring. How does the science of discovery
>come into our spiritual life?
>
>Back to our analogy.
>
>The hard part in the spouse "forgiving" the errant spouse, but denying the
>ability to re-establish a level of trust (even trust built up again over
>time) is a contradiction, and an expectation of perfection from the first
>spouse. It is a statement like "You didn't live up to my expectations, and
>therefore I will not trust you again". If the spouses both sit down and
>consult about what has been operating in the head of the errant spouse
which
>lead to their infidelity, and what actions of the part of the first spouse
>have reinforced that need, it can result in a deeper awareness of the
>humanity of the spouses, hidden messages being passed between them, etc.
>What I am getting at here is that the act of infidelity can be a result of
>something missing, something not being met within the marriage which is so
>strong a need in the partner that it resulted in them breaking trust in
>order to fulfill that need. Do you condemn them forever because they were
>human enough to have that need, or do you look at the need as a couple and
>see where adjustments need to be made before the relationship can continue.
>(Then again, sometimes the spouse has too many hormones working, and they
>are not trying to control them.)
>
I'm with you 100%. It is better (more spiritual?) to take the infidelity as
a "message" to *both* about the marriage.
Again, as you've said so many times here, it's this matter of Taking the
Time Required.
The more we talk about forgiveness as Security in the Process (among other
things) the more I see how that security creates the time needed.
So forgiveness comes out as less and act of judgement -- I forgive you, I
don't forgive you; I forgive that, I won't forgive that -- and more as a
kind of mellow, humble, aware patience, as in " "OUch! That hurt! I wonder
how we're going to fix that, I bet that is going to take some work and
forebearance."
And we are back to idea in Corinthians II:13:4 and Charity: Charity is
always patient and kind; it is never jealous; never boastful or conceited;
never rude or selfish; does not take offense and is not resentful. It takes
no pleasure in other people's sins, but delights in the truth; it is alway
ready to excuse, to trust, to hope and to endure whatever comes.
>In the same way, when an individual in the community feels strongly enough
>about something to speak out, or to act in a way contrary to community
>desires, is there a need on the part of the institution to examine why that
>might be happening, and either helping the individual to address their
need,
>or to collectively address something in the community which might need
>adjusting? (Or is it a case of an individual or an institution demanding
>their own way?)
>
>The point I am again making here is that disruption, bumps in the road,
>disunity, whatever label you want to put on it for the picture in your head
>can be a sign of something amiss which needs to be addressed before we
>continue. It may take some bouncing before resolution is reached and we
can
>move forward.
>
Right, I agree. Symptoms are signs. Symptoms point to something beyond
themselves.
The relevant question is not, "What's wrong with him?" but rather "What are
we needing to do differently?"
>As to the driver, well, if they are a responsible driver, they will know
>where their wheels are on the road, and if they have learned about how
their
>vehicle reacts to certain bumps, they will avoid them carefully in future
>so as to save wear and tear on their shocks and springs.
>
>Love,
>
>Bev.
>
>P.S. Just read your next posting, and it sounds like you have thought of
>this too.
>
So fascinating to think this stuff through with someone so gracious, wise
and also like-minded. Thank you.
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/12/96
Time: 07:47:41
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A. Einstein
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 12:49:36 -0600 (CST)
From: ARINDAM GHOSH
Subject: Re: questions on teaching
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Actually even though not mentioned in the points above. Sending a personal
letter from the teacher to the newly enrolled believer was decided upon
in Houston. The new IACTS may prepare at least a form letter which the
teachers can sign and mail.
Love
Arindam
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 08:36:57 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: Mentors
Dear Friends,
For some time now I have been thinking about the copncept of 'mentoring'
within the Baha'i community related to new believers. What I have seen is
that as soon as a soul declares his faith in Baha, he is left to fend for
himself.
My experience has been that when I have been able to stay with a believer,
after he or she declares, through thick or thin, the results are simply
wonderful. Those souls not only have remained faithful, they have become
very active.
Could the institutions of the Faith find deepened, and humble servants to
serve as mentors to new believers? I would very much appreciate your input.
Arsalan
Arsalan J. Sadighi
P.O. Box 23076
Juneau, AK 99802-3076
(907) 463-4668 Residence
(907) 465-5776 Business
(907) 463-4648 Residential Fax
(907) 465-3450 Business Fax
"Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
that is clearly none of your business!" Battista
=END=
From: AGhosh@uh.edu
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 12:34:48 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re:questions on teaching, Dallas
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Robert,
Thanks,
Do not forget the parallel teaching when you follow up with the contacts.
That is you be ready to give presentation to the family of the contact or
his friends. And do not be surprised if he has forgotten the Bahai-faith.
Just reintroduce.
Also could you please send me the address of the two enrollments that happened.
Burl has set me thinking.
Love
Arindam
=END=
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 07:23:02 +1300 (NZDT)
To: "Richard C. Logan" ,
"Doug Myers" , ,
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Manifestation and Prophets of God, again
Dear Richard,
Re:
>I never called Him a major manifestation.
(1) I have reason to believe that Ahang HAS concluded that Quddus shares
the same exalted status as the Bab and Baha'u'llah and IS what you call a
"major Manifestation". If he has not, I wish he would clarify.
(2) I note that you refer to Quddus as *H*im.
(3) In the meantime I think this thread is about exhausted.
Robert.
=END=
From: AGhosh@uh.edu
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 12:23:12 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Questions in teaching
To: talisman@indiana.edu
>
Arindam Ghosh, on his way to the alter, said:
I look at it this way if I give somebody the message, if he has the drive
he can always deepen himself. It would be great if there is a loving soul to
nurture him.
Burl replies: The person who taught me the Faith said that he was
responsible for me (much like a parent) until I could teach on my own -- he
would "release" me once I gave my first month of firesides. I think that is
a very healthy and productive attitude. You don't "teach 'em & leave 'em" --
in the spiritual realms there are no "one night stands"
Burl
Yes: that's what I do if he's in my community. I should make clear that
I am talking about travel-teaching. But I guess Burl is right. It still
should be our responsibility to keep in touch. I will keep this in mind
Love
Arindam
=END=
From: Stephen Bedingfield
Subject: "You mean that pink thing?"
To: talisman@indiana.edu (Talisman)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 11:47:28 MST
A conversation overheard between a mother and child in Cambridge Bay upon
the new sun rising after the long winter's night:
"Oh look, baby! The sun is up!"
"You mean that pink thing?"
Well "that pink thing" rose yesterday for about 8 minutes, or at least that
is what the Weather Office advised us. But clouds obscured the horizon
so that the sun's disk could not be seen. Even through the clouds the
brightening of the sky was inspiring. Imagine: only 8 minutes of sun yet
we have close to 5 hours of daylight/twilight. Soon on a clear day the
full intensity of the sun will shine bathing the Arctic landscape in 24-hour
radiance. And spirits will fly!
Hmmm, oh yes, we were talking about the House's 4-Year Plan announcement.
Loving regards,
stephen
--
Stephen Bedingfield | "We desire but
Box 115, Cambridge Bay NT X0E 0C0 | the good of the world and
Canada (403) 983-2123 | the happiness of the nations"
email: sbedin@inukshuk.gov.nt.ca | - Baha'u'llah
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 12:48:34 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Houses of Worship Fund
Dear friends,
I mentioned the following idea before but it is a bit more
developed now so here goes:
To establish a fund for building local Houses of Worship
1. Pool the monies that many communities have saved for building
Baha'i Centers.
2. Establish a board to review applications from communties
wanting to build a structure - House of Worship or Baha'i Center
or whatever the community feels would help their development.
3. Money would be loaned to the comunnities at a reasonable
interest rate.
4. Set a goal of granting 3 (or whatever number) loans a year.
I am estimating that there are at least 500 LSA's in the
U.S. (out of about 1700?) that have $1000 worth of savings -
that translates into $500,000 (I am sure that many LSA's have
more and many less but on average I think it is a good guess.)
One reason for my suggestion is that our twin-city communities
are in the process of consulting about a facility and we
probably do not have enough money.
This could be the start of a Baha'i banking system and/or
insurance company.
regards,
sAmAn
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 11:47:04 -0600 (CST)
From: Robert Lee Green
To: ARINDAM GHOSH
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Happy news, questions on teaching etc
Arindam,
Thanks for your time teaching in our I-ACT, though we never met I heard
many positive reports about you. Thanks again for your help.
We are following up with some of your contacts, and are having a grand
time of it. Last week some of the youth went to one of your contacts, and
she ended up driving a group of Baha'i youth to visit the Baha'i center
in one of the other I-ACTS. :-)
Once again, the inter community support is growing. God Bless you and
keep you. :-)
------------------------------------------------
| "O SON OF SPIRIT! |
Robert Green | My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, |
rlg0001 | kindly and radiant heart, that thine may |
@jove.acs.unt.edu | be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable |
| and everlasting." - Baha'u'llah |
------------------------------------------------
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 11:59:38 -0600 (CST)
From: Robert Lee Green
To: Burl Barer
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Happy news, questions on teaching etc
On Fri, 12 Jan 1996, Burl Barer wrote:
> >
> Arindam Ghosh, on his way to the alter, said:
> I look at it this way if I give somebody the message, if he has the drive
> he can always deepen himself. It would be great if there is a loving soul to
> nurture him.
>
>
> Burl replies: The person who taught me the Faith said that he was
> responsible for me (much like a parent) until I could teach on my own -- he
> would "release" me once I gave my first month of firesides. I think that is
> a very healthy and productive attitude. You don't "teach 'em & leave 'em" --
> in the spiritual realms there are no "one night stands"
>
> Burl
>
Personally, I think you are both right, describing different activities.
Proclamation on behalf of Arindam, and teaching on behalf of Burl. Burl
continues to describe consolidation, which Arindam thinks is great.
And there we have the entire process: Proclaim, Teach, Consolidate.
There will be different people arising to handle the different aspects.
I, personally, tend to teach only those people I love intuitively, kinda
like the red corvette scenario, but I proclaim to any and every one. The
ones that respond become, in my mind, seekers, then consolidation becomes
key. Consolidation is the community building stage which the American
Baha'i is now experiencing. We can not stop it; we can help or hinder it.
The choice is up to the individual as to which he or she will choose, and
to none is given the right to judge. :-)
I love this place. :-)
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 12:22:29 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Manifestation and Prophets of God
It does appear to me, as Juan has pointed out, that we are dealing with
different definitions of the word "manifestation." Juan has written a major
article on this subject which was published by the Association for Baha'i
Studies in Canada (which he modestly failed to mention). I don't know if it
is still in print. But, anyone who is seriously interested in this subject
should certainly get a copy and read it.
However, I think that there is also the question of Babi history to take
into account--if we are to make sense out of Baha'u'llah's claims to be the
return of Quddus (as well as the return of the Bab, the return of Christ, and
so forth).
After the execution of the Bab, the Babis did not dissolve. A dynamic and
volatile community remained--under various leaders. A number of Babi groups
regarded their leaders as manifestations of God--either equal to or greater
than the Bab himself. There were those who accepted Quddus in this station.
Others followed Tahirih, for instance. Others insisted on following no one
but the Bab. (To a certain extent, it seems to me that this process was
under way during the Bab's lifetime.)
In any case, as Baha'u'llah sought to gather all of the Babis in
Iran--that shattered and fragmented community--under his leadership, he
naturally had to make multiple claims to appeal to specific groups. He
succeeded miraculously, by the way, in achieving a consensus among the
Iranian Babis that he was their true leader. But, his claims to be the
return of Quddus were certainly directed toward that faction of Babis (and it
was considerable) that had taken Qudddus as the next manifestation of God.
Baha'u'llah's generous and universal approach accepted their beliefs and
redefined them as pointing to himself.
Of course, this theme of return has been used around the world since to
present Baha'u'llah as a world messiah. See Christopher Buck's pioneering
article "A Unique Eschatological Interface: Baha'u'llah and Cross-Cultural
Messianism," in volume three of the STUDIES series.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 11:42:42 -0600 (CST)
From: Robert Lee Green
To: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Questions on Teaching etc.
On Thu, 11 Jan 1996 TLCULHANE@aol.com wrote:
> Dear All ,
As for the question on changing majors maybe this insight will help. I
studied business for three years because so I could teach business or go
in to business if I did not like teaching. I hated business, personally,
but financially it made sense. I failed miserably once I began taking
classes directly related to business. :-)
Three years later, while floundering in indecision, I decided that teaching
was more important that business, and that English was what I wanted to
teach, because I love reading, writing, and critical analysis. But the
question of Baha'u'llah had not been solved. How could I best serve
humanity as an English teacher. The answer slowly dawned. Profess. :-)
hehehe paid by the state to teach but not to proselytize hehehe
The best of Both World, and a million different possibilities. I could
study literature, rhetoric, imagery, symbolism, etc. Or even pursue
philosophy, or history. Eventually, recently actually. I seem to be
heading for a class on progressive revelation; I think it will be called
world civilizations, or something. I'm still working on it. :-)
So in my case, I did not have to distinguish between better and lesser
services. I merely refocused on how I could contribute. It seems that
once I read the Celestine Prophecy, I was better able to read the divine
plan God has regarding my particular circumstances and contributions. :-)
So the idea of the college students, in my mind, really takes to heart
the concept that each one really can make a difference, and that we can
use our academic and professional careers in support and pursuit of
Baha'u'llah's goals, which I find commendable. Let's recommend it for
more college students. :-)
> 3) Robert ( I believe) presented a detailed blueprint for teaching in
> Houston or somewhere. In it he mentioned the recommendation that a goal be 10
> percent of the new believers be come active teachers . My concern and
> question is this .
>
> What is the goal for the other 90 percent of those who become Bahai's ?
The Area I am recruiting teachers for is Dallas :-), but we borrowed the
blue print from Houston. :-)
The goal is to enroll thousands of new believers and consolidate their
faith and love for Baha'u'llah without distinction. Of these new
believers some will have commitments which prevent their teaching
according to the Amatu'l-Baha Teaching Crusade plan.
The number 10 percent is for that percent of the new baha'is to become
active teachers according to the Amatu'l-Baha teaching Crusade. We feel
that is a good starting point.
It also leaves open the idea that the other 90 percent may become
involved in other teaching activities. The Amatu'l-Baha Teaching
Crusade is just one method, and it will be used in conjucture will
several other types of methods.
For Example, I have not stopped using the Celestine Prophecy as a tool to
bring people into the Faith, but that effort does not fall under the
Amatu'l-Baha Teaching Crusade.
There were far more responses to this post than I expected. And Rick's
post regarding the various activities at the center mirrors our efforts.
We in this area began holding nightly meetings at the center on Oct 20, with
the exceptions of feast, which we defer to the host community. At first
the meetings were just fireside/ prayer vigils as requested by the House
of Justice. Now they have evolved to include devotions, womens' studies,
dialogue: racism, youth night, sunday school and deepening.
I hope this helps; I also have the minutes from our first 25 minutes,
these questions have come up internally as well, Keep up the good
thinking. :-)
Consolidation, in my opinion, begins with the present believers. Only
when we manifest the love which Baha'u'llah holds out for us as a
community will entry by troops happen. The new center, the Inter-Assembly
Councils for teaching, and your ardent prayers are having an effect. A
positive effect. By promoting cross community consultation on a
consistent basis Assemblies grow. The members of one community get to see
actual examples of different ways to consult, of different people
subduing ego, of all striving to serve the greatest good.
We have embarked on a journey which we expect to last for years. The
level of maturation required by the members of the assemblies is large,
and all have moved in some way closer to it. I can express is words the
transformation around the Dallas area. It is heart warming.
But one important point to remember about this teaching crusade, it has
empowered the active teachers from several communities and given
strength to community efforts. And it is proven effective, even if just
for today, which I pray, literally, is not the case. Let us take joy in
this new initiative.
------------------------------------------------
| "O SON OF SPIRIT! |
Robert Green | My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, |
rlg0001 | kindly and radiant heart, that thine may |
@jove.acs.unt.edu | be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable |
| and everlasting." - Baha'u'llah |
------------------------------------------------
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 08:58:01 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu, Fred_osgood%Admin@state.ak.us,
Doug_Moore@admin.state.ak.us
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: Re: re;questions on teaching
Friends,
This is a wonderful opportunity for me to learn something. God knows I need
it. Can some of you explain to me what the Master meant when he said that
teaching is the greatest gift of God? I have had a problem understanding
this for a long time. I have never had the temerity to ask anyone either
until now!
Arsalan
>Dear friends:
>
>I come from an Evangelical background and have always been confused by
>these Bahais discussing about teaching. In the form of Christianity I
>come from they discuss about many things but not about this. For a
>Christian to oppose teaching is like to oppose Christ Himself.
>
>I see that many problems arise from the following misunderstandings:
>
>1. There is only 1 form of teaching, or, everybody should only teach
>using the best method which is ...... (fill in the blank).
>
>We know of coure that the UHJ has told us that there are as many forms of
>teaching as there are people and that all are good as long as the dignity
>of the Faith is upheld (EBT statement).
>
>2. Every Bahai should be active in personal teaching. This is an
>unrealistic expection that has torn apart many a community. It creates
>incredible resentments on all sides. I think it is the most destructive
>pathological behavior that the USA Bahai community has displayed.
>
>Not all people have the character which is appropriate for personal teaching
>and
>those that do not should not be blamed, forced, ignored or worse. In
>Christianity _all_ do partecipate in the teaching effort, but in many ways:
>funding, administration, lodging, transportation, referrals, food,
>prayer, encouragement, preparation and distribution of materials, and so
>on. Why is it so difficult for Bahais to understand this! Puzzling......
>
>3. Unrealistic expectation that each newly declared Bahai instantly is
>totally connected to this New Revelation. In Christianity there is
>usually a process of discipleship (evangelicals) or catechesis (catholics)
>where the new believer is helped, encouraged, instructed, prayed with.
>
>I have seen so many people take the easy route of saying that since in
>the Faith there is no clergy each of us is responsible for her/his own
>personal spiritual growth, end of the story, see ya later....
>
>No, deepenings and feasts do not work. They have a very low
>spirit/intellect ratio. Both are usually extreemely boring and replete
>of so much jargon that a new Bahai must feel to be amidst aliens.
>What about doing what Bahaullah is telling us in the KIA and have worship
>meetings? What on earth are we waiting for?? It does not have to be
>immediately a newly constructed building. Look at the 80 million Chinese
>Home Churches which have been meeting in appartments for decades and have
>grown and grown.
>
>I have never understood why Bahais have to say lending library. That
>makes as much sense as saying wet water. When we say 'station' I think
>about a railway station, and when we say 'His Holyness' I think about the
>Pope.........
>
>4. Unrealistic expectations about the steadfastness of a declaration.
>Have you guys ever read the parable of the farmer casting the seed??? The
>famous Billy Graham crusades yield many sinners prayers, but not too many
>church goers. Did this deter Billy Graham? Of course not, since he knew
>that it was worth it and that he still was having an effect that was
>compounded by other efforts and repetitions of his efforts. Look at the
>phenomenal growth of the Evangelical Churches in Korea and Latin America.
>
>If the fact id that there is a low percentage of declarants that become
>active, do not blame the street teachers, but rather wake up and get a
>grip. This is the real world. If this discourages us, them we have
>understood very little about teaching. There is simply no way around.
>The only other way is to stop teaching which is what most USA Bahais have
>indeed been doing. The only perfect way to avoid making mistakes is
>complete inaction.
>
>We can not blame the street teachers for boring feasts and other Bahai
>meetings, that is responsability of the LSA and Assistants. That does
>not mean that the teachers should not be aware of its importance, but
>that we should not expect them to take care of this aspect also.
>
>I would certainly suggest though that before inviting people in we put our
>house in order. The problem is that the Bahais do not want to change. We have
>established a minimum level of involvement and personal change that is
>sufficient to keep our conscience OK and at the same time perfect for
>scaring away new people. Since the new Bahais will usually be scared away
>before elections this process is perfectly self maintained.
> I have teachers heard saying that they were teaching and enrolling
>anyway in the hope that they could vote out of the LSA these frozen
>Bahais. The problem was that they
>were not able to do this since the trickle of new believers was scared
>away before Ridvan and did not have the wish to partecipate in an
>electoral process they did not feel anything for. Thus these teachers
>could never obtain a critical mass for turnover and had to give up in
>despair.
>
>With all this said and done I think that mass teaching is essential as
>much as the spiritual transformation of our personal lives and our
>communties. They go hand in hand and we have to do it, if not for
>ourselves for our children. And _please_ can we put in action the KIA?
>
>Bye,
>
> Eric Indiogine (sindiogi@nmsu.edu), Dept. Civil, Agricultural,
> and Geological Engineering, New Mexico State University,
> Las Cruces, New Mexico, U.S.A.
>
> ## True loss is for him whose days have been ##
> ## spent in utter ignorance of his self ##
> -* Baha'u'llah, Words of Wisdom #21 *-
>
>
>
Arsalan J. Sadighi
P.O. Box 23076
Juneau, AK 99802-3076
(907) 463-4668 Residence
(907) 465-5776 Business
(907) 463-4648 Residential Fax
(907) 465-3450 Business Fax
"Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
that is clearly none of your business!" Battista
=END=
Sub: ... no subject ...
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 12:11:55 -0600 (CST)
From: Mark Foster
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: bahai-announce@bcca.org, noble-creation@bcca.org, bahai@intuition.org,
mfoster@tyrell.net, bahai-st@jcccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us
Folks,
The new Baha'i Studies list is operational. There are a couple of bugs
still to worked out, but I have run several tests on it, and it is seems
to be doing fine. Some of the bugs will be apparent initially. However, I
hope to have them all fixed by today or next week. Message traffic is not
affected.
To subscribe, send a message to: major@johnco.cc.ks.us
Message text:
subscribe bahai-st
end
Nothing is needed in the subject line.
Rules are simple: Respect for others, a spirit of consultation (not
arguing in a negative sense), reverence for the Faith and its
institutions, and avoidance of partisanship. These will be be explained
more fully at a later date.
I hope to see you on board.
Mark Foster, Baha'i Studies list owner
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 13:58:24 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Re: Houses of Worship Fund
Dear Nima,
I had not thought of NonahAlAn, but you are right. I am sure that
you, just like me, were a shareholder of that company.
I don't remember what they did but can ask my parents about it.
I do remember that MisAghiyeh Hospital had direct connnections
to the Faith.
take care,
sAmAn
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 12:42:06 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Saman Ahmadi
Cc: talisman
Subject: Re: Houses of Worship Fund
Dear Saman--
This is a brilliant idea and sounds a lot like the "NownahAlAn" Trust (or
was it Insurance?) company of the NSA of Iran. I've always wondered why a
community such as the US has never developed something comparable. Do any
of our other Persian friends here know about all the details on how this
thing worked exactly (I was way too young to remember)?
Regards,
Nima
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 13:45:18 -0600 (CST)
From: Robert Lee Green
To: AGhosh@uh.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re:questions on teaching, Dallas
I really love this place :-)
Allah'u'Abha
------------------------------------------------
| "O SON OF SPIRIT! |
Robert Green | My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, |
rlg0001 | kindly and radiant heart, that thine may |
@jove.acs.unt.edu | be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable |
| and everlasting." - Baha'u'llah |
------------------------------------------------
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 13:23:07 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Bio
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Talisman"
Dear Tasmanians,
Please allow me to introduce my self I'm a man of wealth and taste.
But seriously folks!
Before I was a Baha'i some 26 years ago I was an independent believer in
the religions of the world. I wish I could express the force with which
the message of Baha'u'llah struck me and transported my soul but, alas,
that's not possible.
Though schooled as a Catholic I was considered at best a"Gadfly" and at
worst a nemisis to nuns and priests alike. I grew up around Berkeley CA
and attended the prestigious UC Berkeley for awhile, but that's another
story. Though I left the Bay (and my heart there) in 1975 I think there
are many in the Baha'i communities and around "The Med" (a coffee shop
on Telegraph Avenue in Berkeley) who still remember me.
Well, there you have it, my pathetic credentials to participate on this
newsgroup. I hope everyone will pardon my pitiful attempts at humor.
Allah-u-Abha Friends
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 96 12:47:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Quddus
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
I'm sorry, Robert, but not everything in the Faith can be reduced
to soundbites and the station of Quddus is one of them.
A few months back, we had a couple weeks worth of very detailed
discussion on this thread and as I recall we all very careful not
to suggest what His station is, as we don't know. All we did
was examine the Writings of the Central Figures and previous
Scriptures about Him. And as I recall no one suggested He was a
Manifestation of God endowed with constancy, that is, formed a
new Dispensation or inaugurated a new theophony. This was the
Bab's *function*. However, Quddus did have a unique rank -- we
saw many quotations that said so.
As for His station to be a "Manifestation", well we had verses
from Baha'u'llah conferring "mazhariyyat" (manifestationhood) on
Quddus! (And no, the same was not extended to other Letters of
the Living.)
If you ask how did Quddus Himself understand His station, its
very clear, He says: "I am God!" In other words, He considered
His utterances to be divinely inspired and revelation. According
to Baha'u'llah, They certainly were prophetic.
And as Tony clearly explained, these "shatiyyih" Writings were
most definitely understood to be revelation by the group of Babis
who followed Him, including Mulla Husayn and 9 other Letters of
the Living! They had no problem recognizing Quddus as the
reflection of the Bab -- and these were people who knew the Bab
and His Writings better than anybody else!
Anyway, I suggest re-reading the postings from a few months back
because the subject is very complex and Richard is right,
Quddus's station is *not* understood and probably never will.
Quddus explicitly says so!
Like Tony, I also very strongly recommend studying Juan's
masterful essay "The Concept of Manifestation" before continuing
much further down this road.
regards, ahang.
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 13:52:17 -0600 (CST)
From: Robert Lee Green
To: "talisman@indiana.edu"
Subject: Re: help save Sesame Street (fwd)
------------------------------------------------
| "O SON OF SPIRIT! |
Robert Green | My first counsel is this: Possess a pure, |
rlg0001 | kindly and radiant heart, that thine may |
@jove.acs.unt.edu | be a sovereignty ancient, imperishable |
| and everlasting." - Baha'u'llah |
------------------------------------------------
---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 96 14:32:52
From: Kazemzadeh, Allegra
To: Baha'i Campus Forum
Subject: Re: help save Sesame Street (fwd)
Dear Friends,
Please share this with as many people as you can. The process of
forwarding this message saves your name on the list. If you have
questions please feel free to contact me.
Thanks.
Allegra Kazemzadeh
akazemzadeh@usbnc.org
______________________________ Forward Header __________________________________
Subject: Re: help save Sesame Street (fwd)
Author: Alex Blakeson at USBNC
Date: 1/10/96 4:09 PM
In a good cause...
PBS, NPR (National Public Radio), and the arts are facing major
cutbacks in funding. In spite of the efforts of each station to
reduce spending costs and streamline their services, the government
officials believe that the funding currently going to these programs is
too large a portion of funding for something which is seen as
"unworthwhile". Currently, taxes from the general public for PBS equal
$1.12 per person per year, and the National Endowment for the Arts
equals $.64 a year in total.
A January 1995 CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll indicated that
76% of Americans wish to keep funding for PBS, third only to national
defense and law enforcement as the most valuable programs for federal
funding. Each year, the Senate and House Appropriations
commitees each have 13 subcommitees with jurisdiction over many
programs and agencies.
Each subcommitee passes its own appropriation bill. The goal
each year is to have each bill signed by the beginning of the fiscal
year, which is October 1. In the instance of the Corporation of Public
Broadcasting, the bill determines the funding for the next three years.
When this issue comes up in 1996, the funding will be determined for
fiscal years 1996-1998. The only way that our representatives can be
aware of the base of support for PBS and funding for these types of
programs is by making our voices heard. Please add your name to this
list if you believe in what we stand for. This list will be forwarded
to the President of the United States, the Vice President of the United
States, and Representative Newt Gingrich, who is the instigator of the
action to cut funding to these worthwhile programs.
If you happen to be the 50th, 100th, 150th, etc. signer of this
petition, please forward a copy to wein2688@blue.univnorthco.edu. If
that address is inoperative, please send it to
kubi7975@blue.univnorthco.edu.
>>This way we can keep track of the lists and organize them.
>>Forward this to everyone you know, and help us to keep these programs
>>alive.
>>Thank you.
>>1. Elizabeth Weinert, student, University of Northern
>>Colorado, Greeley, Colorado.
>>2. Nikki Marchman, student, University of Northern
>>Colorado, Greeley, Colorado.
>>3. Laura King, Salt Lake City, Utah
>>4. Mary Lambert, San Francisco, CA
>>5. Sam Tucker, Seattle, WA
>>6. Steve Mack, Seattle, WA
>>7. Stacy Shelley, Sub Pop Records, Seattle, WA.
>>8. Amy Saaed, Seattle, WA
>>9. Jill Hudgins, Atlanta, GA
>>10. Alex Goolsby, student, Colgate University, Hamilton, NY
>>11. Aisha K. McGriff, North Carolina School of Science and Math
>>12. Amy Brushwood, North Carolina School of Science and Math
>>13. Mason Blackwell, student and generally great guy, The College of
>> William and Mary
>>14. Melinda Murphy, student, St. Mary's College of Maryland
>>15. Amy Raphael, student, University of Pennsylvania
>>16. Mat Costanzo, student and avid grover fan, University of Richmond.
>>17. Richard Galinski, student and enthusiastic Cookie Monster
>>supporter, Wake Forest University
>>18. Jennifer Moore, student, Carnegie Mellon University
>>19. Allison Make, student, Brandeis University
>>20. Harlan Toplitzky, student and public television producer, Brandeis
>>University
>>21. Randy Levitt, student, Brandeis University
>>22. Valerie Levitt, student, Brandeis University
>>23. Erica Miller,student and great lover of true art in puppet
>>theatre, New York University
>>24. Jobert Barin, student, The Johns Hopkins University, Baltimore, MD
>>25. Jeffrey Schmidt, student, California State Polytechnic University,
>>Pomona.
>>26. Stephen Schmidt, Sales Mgr. San Diego, CA
>>27. Chris Cobb, Santa Clara, CA
>>28. Guy Cross, Oracle Corp, Redwood Shores, CA
>>29. Chip Lange, EA SPORTS, San Mateo, CA
>>30. Kathy Progar, The 3DO Company, Redwood City, CA
>>31. Melissa Svihovec, FutureTel Inc., Santa Clara, CA
>>32. John Salera, The 3DO Company, Redwood City, CA
>>33. Noelle Lehmann, The 3DO Company, Redwood City, CA
>>34. Maria Toepfer, The 3DO Company, Redwood City, CA
35. Richard D. Titus, Motion Picture Corporation of America. Beverly Hills CA
36. Jed Weintrob, MPCA, Santa Monica, CA.
37. Judith Ulicki, University of Southern California, Voter, LA, CA
38. Natalia Sorgente, NYU Law School, NYC, NY
39. Atissa Banuazizi, Dept. of Organismic and Evolutionary Biology,
Harvard University, Cambridge, MA
40. Allegra Kazemzadeh, Baha'i National Center, Evanston, IL.
41. Monireh Kazemzadeh, Del Rey Oaks, CA.
42. Caterina Bosio, Del Rey Oaks, CA.
43. Alexander Blakeson, Evanston, IL
%%% overflow headers %%%
To: Victoria Wei ,
Kathleen Sterling ,
Elizabeth Stein ,
Judy Shih ,
Michael Rosenbaum ,
Samantha Merton ,
Caroline Wing Liao ,
Sima Kazemzadeh ,
Allegra Kazemzadeh ,
Alison Frontier ,
Christine Dokko ,
Susan Bisson ,
Ali Banuazizi ,
Colum Amory
%%% end overflow headers %%%
=END=
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 08:31:55 +1300 (NZDT)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: sociobiology and manfestation
Talismans,
I awoke this morning to find two excellent postings from Juan and
though it is a bleak (windy and wet) day outside, the sun shines... I
couldn't write this without adding a little more, so here goes...
(1) Sociobiology.
Sociobiology is implicated in the positivist-empiricist value-free science
hoax. With the departure of metaphysics, and the emergence of science,
metaphysical certitude set up house in biology (and physics). Metaphysical
certitude is all good and well, except where it validates outdated values,
like sexism and racism. And this is exactly what happened, as Juan points
out. Sociobiology is riddled with unchallenged ideological/cultural
assumptions. And the fact that these assumptions are ideological/cultural
magnifies the potential for doing good work in collaboration with social
constructionists. However, until Baha'i metaphysics becomes a real tool in
scholarship, the sciences and arts pertaining to human subjectivity will
remain pretty crude...
(2)
Manifestation
Juan's letter (supported by Tony's) takes my thought into unfamiliar
territory. However, I have no problem with the central thrust of his
argument.
For a long time now I have felt it really important to "populate" the
regions between mere humanity (like me) and the exalted regions (of
Guardianship and on upwards) with "real" people who are able to mediate the
qualities and attributes of God in ways which are easy on the digestion
(like baby food ;-})... It is like there is a great chain of being..and I
am saying that it is good to find heroes who are "nearby" -- as well as
"faraway". Obviously one's parents and older siblings are one's first
"nearby" heroes. I think the likes of Socrates and Confucius are my adult
"nearby" spiritual heroes.. I think they are really amazing, but I know
that they were not Manifestations of God endowed with constancy...
Perhaps Quddus is Ahang's "nearby hero"... dunno ;-} = shrug.
If someone provides surefire scriptural evidence that Confucius was a
Manifestation of God endowed with constancy, I'll review his status as a
"nearby hero", and/or the meaning of "nearby hero" itself...
Forgive the rambling... I have been up since 6 to take my daughter
swimming...and I stayed up last night to watch Australia play Sri Lanka at
cricket at Perth.... New Zealand plays Zimbabwe in New Zealand, starting
today... A different world, folks... Speaking of which, I wonder what's
happened to those two noble Australasians, Ahmad and Michael (Curtotti)....
Robert.
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 11:35:49 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu, belove@sover.net
From: nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
Subject: Re: More on forgiveness
Dear Philip,
Thank you for your kind words.
You know how to ask hard questions! The humility concept was not an
original thought of mine but is something that once I read it I incorperated
it into my thought patterns since it made so much sense. It took me over an
hour to hunt it down, but I found it.
The credit goes to Adib Taherzadeh. In "The Revelation of Baha'u'llah",
vol.1, pp.133-134 he writes:
"In the service of the Cause of God the greatest protection for the
individual is meekness and humility. It is the most acceptable gift that
man can offer to God. For by virtue of His sovereignty and dominion,
humility is not one of God's attributes."
When I first read this the logic of it was obvious. When we read our
prayers we see God refered to as Self-Subsisting, Almighty, Most Powerful,
Mighty, All-Knowing, King of all men, Ever-Forgiving, Most Generous, Loving,
Provider of all mankind, Forgiver, All-Wise, All-Possessing, All-Glorious,
Most Bountiful, Knower, Sustainer, Omnipotent, Glorious, All-Bountiful
Provider, Gracious, Generous, Merciful, Exalted, Beneficent, Most
Compassionate, Clement, and Lord of the worlds to list just a few.
Nowhere in this list do I see any mention or indication of anything like
humility. As I view it, there are two thing in the universe that are
distinctly man's domain. One is humility. The other is evil. Baha'u'llah
reveals:
"Every good thing is of God, and every evil thing is from yourselves. Will
ye not comprenend?" ("Gleanings", p. 150)
Doug Myers
nightbrd@humboldt1.com
"Nothing survives but the way we live our lives." JB
>On Thu, 11 Jan 1996 15:44:54 -0800 Doug Myers wrote:
>
>>Humility is such an ellusive quality because it is not one of the
>qualities
>>of God.
>
>
>This is an astounding observation. It stopped me cold. Is that true?
>I love your whole posting, but this part really stood out. Thanks
>
>Philip
>
>
> And in being such it is the only true gift we can give God. We
>>have 'Abdu'l-Baha as our exemplar of humility, along with all the
>>attributes of God. What would 'Abdu'l-Baha do?
>
>-------------------------------------
>Name: Philip Belove
>E-mail: belove@sover.net
>Date: 01/11/96
>Time: 23:33:17
>
>This message was sent by Chameleon
>-------------------------------------
>Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
>Einstein
=END=
From: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 96 21:40:08 -0600 (CST)
Subject: GLEANINGS II
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Ahang, I have no upgrades but add my name
Warmest greetings, Dann May, Philosophy, OK City Univ.
---
* WR 1.32 # 669 * Learning is a kind of natural food for the mind. Cicero
=END=
From: AGhosh@uh.edu
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 22:01:52 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Shedding a bittersweet tear
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear ED,
One important difference I see.
Though I am a new believer myself, most of the active youth now are
at least 2nd Generation believers due to you guys no doubt (-:. They
really have been nursed in the covenant. Even those you do not see,
those who are totally engrossed in the battle of life, scratch their
hearts and you will find Bahaullah. Their fall-out is entirely different
in nature from the fall-outs of your friends. Probably it is difficult
for people your age to assume that if your children are not very active
they do not identify with the faith -- may not be true, scratch their
heart and you will know.
Love
Arindam
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 14:33:17 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Manifestation and Prophets of God, again
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Robert Johnston" ,
"Doug Myers" ,
"Talisman" ,
>(1) I have reason to believe that Ahang HAS concluded that Quddus shares
>the same exalted status as the Bab and Baha'u'llah and IS what you call a
>"major Manifestation". If he has not, I wish he would clarify.
>
>(2) I note that you refer to Quddus as *H*im.
>
>(3) In the meantime I think this thread is about exhausted.
>
>Robert.
I believe what you are describing is an "Iranian Outlook" on the
question of Quddus. In my experience, there have been many issues which
Persians generally don't talk to westerners (ourselves) about. These
positions may be irrational or simply indulgent but I like to think that
there may be something there. I think your reaction to Ahang is an
example of one of the reasons Iranian don't often talk about these ideas.
Maybe Ashang should be beheaded over this? I don't know. I used to
hear this and many other things during my time at Berkeley. Some other
Iranian chesnuts are the ideas that one cannot pray to God--I even heard
it said that our prayers can't even reach Badi. Another suggests that
Baha'u'llah always knew he was the Prophet of God and another was, quite
unbelieveably, that Baha'u'llah was greater than the other Prophets. Now
let be cautious here-- I 'm not saying that Iranians in general believe
these things--what I am saying is it seems there are proponents of
certain extra-scriptural concepts.
As for my use of a capitalized H in He when refering to Quddus-- I will
remain silent on.
Your Baha'i Brother
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 12:10:56 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: Re: Houses of Worship Fund
I still have some NonahAlAn shares some place. I should probably auction
them at some point for some real money. NonahAlAn was like a Credit Union
for Baha'is that gathered the money and invested for the believers.
Arsalan
>Dear Nima,
>
>I had not thought of NonahAlAn, but you are right. I am sure that
>you, just like me, were a shareholder of that company.
>
>I don't remember what they did but can ask my parents about it.
>
>I do remember that MisAghiyeh Hospital had direct connnections
>to the Faith.
>
>take care,
>sAmAn
>
>
>
Arsalan J. Sadighi
P.O. Box 23076
Juneau, AK 99802-3076
(907) 463-4668 Residence
(907) 465-5776 Business
(907) 463-4648 Residential Fax
(907) 465-3450 Business Fax
"Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
that is clearly none of your business!" Battista
=END=
From: alma@indirect.com
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 13:46:43 -0700
To: belove@sover.net, belove@sover.net, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Humility and Forgiveness
Hello again Philip. And thanks for your thoughtful reply -- a reply which
addresses my too terse message and draws the wrong conclusions to answer.
Reminds me of what has been stated here so often regarding questions to the
UHJ. Be careful how you ask for the answer will be to what you ask and not
what you intend.
So let me try to develop a bit what I intended. Acceptance as I use the
term is not the grim grit-your-teeth-and-ignore-it you describe. That never
works for whatever is being ignored comes back, in my experience, with a
vengeance -- much more powerful than before.
My concept of acceptance actually starts in my pre-Baha'i days. I am one of
those who turned to alcohol as a means of coping -- to make the kind of
acceptance you describe bearable, to defuse my anger. When I was finally
able to leave this crutch behind me, I needed a new method of coping.
Situations that were unfair, people I disagreed with strongly, did not go
away. If anything they were more grating than ever. So gradually I
developed a new method of handling these situations. I tend to be very
judgemental by nature and I knew that led nowhere. My anger whether
justified or not only led to my own hurt -- sort of like scratching the scab
off of a healing sore.
Forgiveness didn't seem to work for I was still the wounded one.
So I took a new path and started using one of the suggestions of
twelvth-step groups. To pray for the offending party. And I quickly
discovered that a "God bless x, God damn it" wasn't a very effective prayer.
To pray in a more positive manner, I needed a more positive image of the
other person - situation. And I started to consciously develop that. What
would cause that person to act that way? When I found a sufficient reason I
could pray for the person in a positive way. And lo and behold, my anger
went away. I could accept this person just as s/he was, or as I perceived
the person, in a loving manner. By the time I was doing this fairly
regularly I had heard of the Baha'i Faith and declared. So I don't know how
much to attribute to Baha'i teachings.
I am behind on my Talisman email reading and so have not read some later
emails about forgiveness. But I did read the next one by you to Bev in
which you say, in part:
>I have choices about my attitude toward the one's who've wronged me.
>I can be angry at him/her for not being more considerate. I can avoid
>him/her to avoid being angry. Or I can accept his/her limitations and
>love him/her for what there is to love, with full mindfullness of
>their limitations.
>
This is very like my process. Except that I would change 'their
limitations' to 'their assumed limitations' for I may not understand the
other person well enough to arrive at their real limitations. Doesn't
matter, really. For I do have a focus that works. The main difference,
from my point of view is that you assume the right to judge and I do not.
Judging places me in a 'superior' position which on one level all to often
leads to anger which is deadly for me and on another level places me in the
position of assuming something I think belongs to God.
I said in my original post that this works most of the time. Strangely
enough it works least well on both the most trivial situations and the most
grave. Still have an initial judgemental, angry response to those who drive
differently than I do on the freeway and it takes conscious work on my part
to overcome it in THIS situation. Took me a long time to accept the person
who reported me to the Administrative Order for alleged infirmenss in the
Covenant. And I am not sure how it would work if Hitler's actions were
affecting me. But then I wonder how your forgiveness path would work there
too.
Hope this makes things clearer. And, no, I was not offended by your
rejection of my original thoughts. Without that, I would assumed that what
I said was nearly as clear as the noon sun when it wasn't at all.
In peace and with Baha'i love,
Alma
At 02:51 PM 1/11/96 PST, belove@sover.net wrote:
>Thanks so much Alma.
>I really appreciate this response for all the confusion it brings up
>in me.
>If I may comment on it please. I would be very interested to hear
>your answers to my misgivings about the position you're taken.
>
>First, where I agree with you.
>
>I do agree that there is some kind of a spiritual goal in which
>judgment is reserved to God.
>I also agree that I, too, am not there yet.
>I also agree that if only I didn't judge, I would have nothing to
>forgive.
>And I confess that often forgiveness is quite elusive.
>
>Where I have trouble with your approach is that you seem to set aside
>the process just at the point I think the process begins. It is as
>if you've said, Judgement is reserved to God, therefore I am not
>supposed to judge. Therefore I shouldn't be so needing to forgive.
>And one day I won't have to. And meanwhile, I don't want to think
>about it because I shouldn't be this way in the first place.
>
>I've always loved your signature poem from Tahirih. But I read the
>poem as saying that accepting that we do judge and that we are not
>humble and that we need to work to learn forgiveness and it is not
>easy... all this is what she means when she says, "To tread the path
>of love is no mere game.
>
>Thank you again and I hope this response hasn't been offensive to you
>in any way.
>
>Philip
>
>
To tread the path of Love Alma Engels
Is no mere game. alma@indirect.com
For only one
Out of many thousands
Can persevere in His Love. (Tahirih)
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 15:07:34 -0600 (CST)
From: Robert Lee Green
To: Saman Ahmadi
Cc: talisman
Subject: Houses of Worship/Baha'i Center Fund
On Fri, 12 Jan 1996, Saman Ahmadi wrote:
> Dear friends,
>
> To establish a fund for building local Houses of Worship
>
> 1. Pool the monies that many communities have saved for building
> Baha'i Centers.
Dear Saman,
Banking and the Baha'i Faith, (hmmm) 28 Assemblies and several Baha'i
groups in the North Texas area pooled their resources, time, energy, and money
to promote entry by troops. The Assemblies divided into smaller units which
we have agreed to call Inter-Assembly Councils for Teaching (I-ACTs).
Opening new Centers within each I-ACT was a major goal of the entry by
troops process. We did it in less than 6 months, But we divided into
groups of from 5-7 Assemblies, and we asked for specific pledges from
communities and individuals just for the center and just for 6 months.
Our 6 months is up in February, and our treasurer just informed
us that most of our pledges are current and reminded us that
we need to evaluate our plans again, in order to determine: whether we
have outgrown our current center :-) and so need a larger center or can
endure here for another 6 months to a year; whether we want to renew our
call for pledges for full time teachers and the housing and incidentals
to deputize them; and whether we are ready to begin to branch out to
other communities within the I-ACT. Each I-ACT has a goal to have centers
in each community that is self supported. We pool now because we can't
afford it alone. The growth of the community is the only way we can
sustain 11 new centers in our I-ACT. There are about 300,000 people in
our I-ACT, but Dallas and Fort Worth are very close and they add nearly 3
million people in the area. The eleven communities in our I-ACT represent
about 300 people (hmmm times 1000). :-) Let it be
Now that all the I-ACTs have centers, we move on to the next goals of
having full time teachers, who spend their days looking for "waiting"
souls, and providing a full scale consolidation program to promote
steadfast and deepened Bahai's.
Waiting souls are identified as those souls who are Baha'i now, but who
haven't heard of Baha'u'llah.
They already recognize Baha'u'llah as the Promised One of God. We merely
tell them His name. They readily understand and accept the Bab, as
Baha'u'llah's forerunner, and Abdu'l-Baha as the center of Baha'u'llah's
covenant.
They can visualize the need for local, national, and
international institutions, they know the bounty of the election process.
And they know there will be laws.
These are the waiting souls the full time teachers are expressly looking for.
And they have a 15-20 presentation designed to discover if they have found a
waiting soul.
Those souls not deemed to be waiting souls are recorded according to
their receptivity. For example, the waiting souls are recorded as
enrolled, others are recorded as interested, but not enrolled, or as not
interested.
The second part consolidation involves gearing up the communities to
provide nightly programming at the center, weekend teacher training
institutes, and monthly deepenings. This part has gone better in some
I-ACTs than others, but we are moving in ways I could not have predicted
a year ago. I will respond more on consolidation later, must attend to
some details before I can reply responsibly. :-)
If there is a point or two to all of this (besides the one on my head),
be open to connsidering more than two communities, remember that more
direct teaching and consolidation are two of the bounties of a consistent
gathering place, and you can do it :-)
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 16:48:21 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Cricket vs. Football
Pittsburg all the way dude!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com (ex college football player - and his knees are just fine!)
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 96 14:50:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Iranian bashing
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
> I believe what you are describing is an "Iranian Outlook" on the
> question of Quddus. In my experience, there have been many issues which
> Persians generally don't talk to westerners (ourselves) about. These
> positions may be irrational or simply indulgent but I like to think that
> there may be something there. I think your reaction to Ahang is an
> example of one of the reasons Iranian don't often talk about these ideas.
> Maybe Ashang should be beheaded over this? I don't know. I used to
> hear this and many other things during my time at Berkeley. Some other
> Iranian chesnuts are the ideas that one cannot pray to God--I even heard
> it said that our prayers can't even reach Badi. Another suggests that
> Baha'u'llah always knew he was the Prophet of God and another was, quite
> unbelieveably, that Baha'u'llah was greater than the other Prophets. Now
> let be cautious here-- I 'm not saying that Iranians in general believe
> these things--what I am saying is it seems there are proponents of
> certain extra-scriptural concepts.
The above statement is so profoundly racist that I won't dignify
it with a rebuttal.
Ahang Rabbani, proud to be an Iranian Baha'i!
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 96 14:28:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Funds for House of Worship
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
As I understand, during the past 15 years or so, at least once
every couple of months somebody writes to the NSA or the House
proposing establishment a "nunahalan"-like company in north
America or Europe. Saman's suggestion is pretty much along those
lines.
The main problems with all these ideas is that its totally
impractical. Take the numbers Saman was using for example. He
suggested pulling all the money by 500 LSA together to form
$500,000 as the principle. Well, as someone who plays various
investment games, I can tell you the best you can guarantee is
about 10% annual average return! That means $50,000 a year! Now
from this money you've got to pay fees and people that do the
investment. Well that leaves something like $30K/yr. After
adjusting for inflation, its more like $20K. Any reasonable
building for a House of Worship will be at minimum $300K, plus
about $15K/yr for utilities.
So, basically to get some thing like a Fund for Houses of Worship
going you need:
1. a *lot* of money;
2. Many, many shareholders who constantly and sacrificially
contribute to it;
3. a great deal of patience for this fund to grow.
This is what nunahalan company had in Iran. It grew from a
single gold coin given by Abdu'l-Baha (as a seed money) to a
enterprise that stood at estimated half a billion dollars!
The answer to all of these questions is Entry by Troops. What we
need is a much, much larger base of support for such
undertakings. You can't do it with $500K or even $5 million! We
need to have a few million Baha'is before any of these projects
can be attempted. I suspect that's part of House' reasoning.
regards, ahang.
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 13:27:25 PST8PDT
Subject: who, sorted/ Re: sociobiology and manfestation
Evidently the interesting gentlemen have departed.
Eric D. Pierce
(PierceED@csus.edu)
> Date sent: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 08:31:55 +1300 (NZDT)
> To: talisman@indiana.edu
> From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
> Subject: sociobiology and manfestation
...snipped
> today... A different world, folks... Speaking of which, I wonder what's
> happened to those two noble Australasians, Ahmad and Michael (Curtotti)....
>
> Robert.
>
***************************************************************
: From: curtotti@ozemail.com.au
: Date: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 20:57:42 +1100 (EST)
: To: talisman@indiana.edu
: Subject: Re: American Baha'i? (i.e Baha'i administration)
:
:
: Dear Juan and friends,
:
: Sadly I think this will be my last post to talisman for a while. The
: reason for this is quite simple and personal - the volume of traffic on
: talisman is just overwhelming and the intensity and pace of the debate is
: such that I would have to take it up as a full time job just to keep up!
:
...snip
***************************************************************
(#170 total entries 1/12/96 1:15pm california time)
the talisman "who" list, sorted:
0002005383@mcimail.com
0007368608@mcimail.com
100725.315@compuserve.com
100735.2257@compuserve.com
102164.1365@compuserve.com
72110.2126@compuserve.com
73074.1221@compuserve.com
73241.2126@compuserve.com
73613.2712@compuserve.com
9350273@arran.sms.ed.ac.uk
aakhauar@extro.ucc.su.OZ.AU
abtavangar@geoenv.com
agahi@adb.gu.se
aghosh@uh.edu
AHAMRAEI@aol.com
ahmada@acsusun.acsu.unsw.edu.au
ahriazati@ccgate.hac.com
Alethinos@aol.com
ali@afnan.demon.co.uk
alma@indirect.com
antonpf@name.net
asadighi@ptialaska.net
b.mohajerin@qut.edu.au
barazanf@dg-rtp.dg.com
BBRK678@BARMS011.B-R.COM
belove@sover.net
BJYL15A@prodigy.com
bob.parrish@wwwhbbs.com
bonian@skom.se
brburl@mailbag.com
briann@cruzio.com
bstover@nwark.com
burlb@bmi.net
carmen@ucla.edu
CaryER_ms@msn.com
cdibdin@ozemail.com.au
charles@oneworld.wa.com
CLARKRE@fllab.chass.ncsu.edu
cmaguire@enhanced.com
colerche@vub.ac.be
cybrmage@niia.net
cyn@bwc.org
dan_orey@qmbridge.ccs.csus.edu
dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com
Dave10018@aol.com
Dcorbett@aol.com
derekmc@ix.netcom.com
djs@teleport.com
Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com
dpeden@imul.com
dsimmons@esd101.wednet.edu
ehancock@primenet.com
ehesari@huey.csun.edu
F.Sanaei@unsw.edu.au
fafagh@ccs.carleton.ca
Fariba.Hedayati@newcastle.ac.uk
FarshadN@aol.com
firouz@abac.au.ac.th
forumbahai@dunedin.es.co.nz
friberg@will.brl.ntt.jp
fxsabet@popper.PacBell.COM
geladm4@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu
Geocitizen@aol.com
gg@scs.howard.edu
girard@informix.com
glonet@wave.co.nz
gpoirier@acca.nmsu.edu
grahamj@CSOS.ORST.EDU
griffith@biostat.washington.edu
healy@pipeline.com
hooshmand.sheshberadaran@sol.pharmacia.se
hwmiller@ccnet.com
jarmstro@sun1.iusb.edu
jefferyh@cap.gwu.edu
jerrym@eznet.com
joannem@bwc.org
johnb@intellinet.com
jordan@iapc.net
jrcole@umich.edu
jwalbrid@indiana.edu
jwinters@epas.utoronto.ca
khademi@skom.se
Kkonline@aol.com
KOLINSSM@hcl.chass.ncsu.edu
kseiden@casbah.acns.nwu.edu
l.droege@genie.com
laurab@bwc.org
lgl@island-resort.com
lora_m@meddeans.creighton.edu
lua@sover.net
LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
m.lips@auckland.ac.nz
maeissin@ichange.com
Maggie@baha.demon.co.uk
mansouri@bwc.org
margreet@margreet.seanet.com
Mark Walter Salata Forgive the rambling... I have been up since 6 to take my daughter
>swimming...and I stayed up last night to watch Australia play Sri Lanka at
>cricket at Perth.... New Zealand plays Zimbabwe in New Zealand, starting
>today... A different world, folks... Speaking of which, I wonder what's
>happened to those two noble Australasians, Ahmad and Michael (Curtotti)....
>
>Robert.
>
>
>
>
Arsalan J. Sadighi
P.O. Box 23076
Juneau, AK 99802-3076
(907) 463-4668 Residence
(907) 465-5776 Business
(907) 463-4648 Residential Fax
(907) 465-3450 Business Fax
"Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
that is clearly none of your business!" Battista
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 96 14:44 PST
To: "Richard C. Logan"
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Bio
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Richard Logan from hippie hill said:
I hope everyone will pardon my pitiful attempts at humor.
Burl says: don't worry. They put up with Derek and I, not to mention the
inane antics of Linda Walbridge who deserves a Saturday Morning Cartoon Show
all her own!
Burl
>
>
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 15:32:56 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Ahang Rabbani
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Iranian bashing
> The above statement is so profoundly racist that I won't dignify
> it with a rebuttal.
>
> Ahang Rabbani, proud to be an Iranian Baha'i!
Here, here!
They say that the cultural misunderstandings between Western and
Persian Baha'is is a two-way-street, although sometimes one-way. More and
more I'm coming to believe in the truth of this.
Nima Hazini, also proud of being an Iranian Baha'i!
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 16:06:44 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Re: Funds for House of Worship
Dear Ahang and All,
>
> The main problems with all these ideas is that its totally
> impractical. Take the numbers Saman was using for example. He
> suggested pulling all the money by 500 LSA together to form
> $500,000 as the principle. Well, as someone who plays various
> investment games, I can tell you the best you can guarantee is
> about 10% annual average return! That means $50,000 a year! Now
> from this money you've got to pay fees and people that do the
> investment. Well that leaves something like $30K/yr. After
> adjusting for inflation, its more like $20K. Any reasonable
> building for a House of Worship will be at minimum $300K, plus
> about $15K/yr for utilities.
I had not thought of the idea as you have explained - what
I was thinking was that the monies would just be pooled but
not invested per se.
I know nearly nothing about finance but this is what I envisioned:
Assume we start with $500,000. That can fund the construction of
at least one good size building - this assumes alot of sweat-equity
(ala the t.v. program "This Old House").
The LSAs would then pay back the loan at a reasonable percentage
rate.
Meanwhile we have to also assume that the size of the community
will grow with the construction of the building which means contributions
will grow which will enable the total repayment of the loan in a few
short years.
The way I see it is that we need to marry building structures with
entry by troops.
The idea of a Baha'i investment company is also interesting - may
be the above can slowly develop into one.
regards,
sAmAn
=END=
From: colerche@vub.ac.be (Lerche Charles Olsen)
Subject: inactive Baha'is
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 22:46:22 +0100 (MET)
Once upon a time my family and I were asked to open a new
town by moving there. We were told that there were two
sisters who lived just outside of the town who were "inactive."
We were told that 20 years previously they had been very active
as youth, but then just seemed to slip away. We tried our best
to get in touch with them, with no luck. Other Baha'is who had
known them also tried, at our request. That did not work either.
So we decided to get on with finding people who would be
interested in hearing about the Baha'i Faith. We put an ad in
the local paper for our firesides. One man came. He told us
that he knew the two sisters and they had been teaching him about
the Baha'i Faith. He wanted to find out more about it.
This made me take a long and hard look at my attitudes about
"active" and "inactive" Baha'is. How could Baha'is who were
teaching the Faith ever have been considered to be "inactive?"
I delved into the Writings and came up with a list of basic
activities required of every Baha'i and discovered that all of them
were between the individual and God. The activities which put
us in contact with other Baha'is are very important and highly
recommended, but are not obligatory. I realized that I had been
judgmental and even arrogant in my attitude towards "inactive"
Baha'is.
Probably some of you would consider our new Baha'is to be
"inactive." Certainly many of the older Baha'is in the area think of
them as being as being so. We cannot even get them together for
a Nineteen Day Feast. How on earth are we going to ever form
a local spiritual assembly? Etc., etc.
Anybody who might think like that is very, very wrong. These
people love Baha'u'llah deeply. They are ardently working in
their own way to establish Baha'u'llah's New World Order.
They are active teachers. They understand the importance of
prayer and unity and are trying to transform their lives so that
they are more in line with Baha'u'llah's teachings. They are
hospitable. They also have families and are trying to financially
survive in a very harsh and hard environment. In other words,
they are Baha'is, but are living their Baha'i life the way they feel
fit.
When we look at any society there are those who like to sit
back and let others do the work. There are those who are
activists. There are those who prefer to be entertained and
those who find their pleasure in helping others. I do not think
the Baha'i society of the future will be any different. I know
that if a House of Worship were to be erected in our town
tomorrow, one of my greatest tests would be to have to get
up at dawn. I certainly hope that when that day comes I am
not categorized as an "inactive" Baha'i.
Loni Bramson-Lerche
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 13:22:21 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: Re: Iranian bashing
No, no , no, no! Richard is no racist my beloved Ahang. Please read his
message again. I do not believe that Richard's intention was to belittle
Persians. The problem is it is hard to have a sense of humour on-line. I
suggest we organize a yearly gathering somewhere, maybe calling it 'deedAr'
(SCIers know what I mean), so folks can actually get know each other and get
to like each other. No more fighting please!
Richard, I am sorry to speak for you, but could not resist.
Somewhere around here I heard something about forgiveness and humiltiy!!!
Arsalan
>[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
>
>
>> I believe what you are describing is an "Iranian Outlook" on the
>> question of Quddus. In my experience, there have been many issues which
>> Persians generally don't talk to westerners (ourselves) about. These
>> positions may be irrational or simply indulgent but I like to think that
>> there may be something there. I think your reaction to Ahang is an
>> example of one of the reasons Iranian don't often talk about these ideas.
>> Maybe Ashang should be beheaded over this? I don't know. I used to
>> hear this and many other things during my time at Berkeley. Some other
>> Iranian chesnuts are the ideas that one cannot pray to God--I even heard
>> it said that our prayers can't even reach Badi. Another suggests that
>> Baha'u'llah always knew he was the Prophet of God and another was, quite
>> unbelieveably, that Baha'u'llah was greater than the other Prophets. Now
>> let be cautious here-- I 'm not saying that Iranians in general believe
>> these things--what I am saying is it seems there are proponents of
>> certain extra-scriptural concepts.
>
>
>The above statement is so profoundly racist that I won't dignify
>it with a rebuttal.
>
>Ahang Rabbani, proud to be an Iranian Baha'i!
>
>
Arsalan J. Sadighi
P.O. Box 23076
Juneau, AK 99802-3076
(907) 463-4668 Residence
(907) 465-5776 Business
(907) 463-4648 Residential Fax
(907) 465-3450 Business Fax
"Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
that is clearly none of your business!" Battista
=END=
From: Alethinos@AOL.COM
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 16:42:00 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Teaching: What it is and is not/chasing our tails
It has been interesting to watch the flow of discourse since early last
week. Especially in regard to teaching. The mountain of misconceptions that
started immediately after talking about restarting the Youth Movement and the
mistakes we have made in conceiving of what it means to *teach* the Cause of
God is startling.
Of course the first errors began with assuming that the continuing
discourse on the need to revolutionize the American Baha'i community was
another thinly veiled attack on the Institutions. Hardly. Perhaps a rumaging
through the list archives by newbies will give them a taste of the history of
the discourses that have transpired here in the past six months.
Somehow this got mixed in with the age-old favorite arguement about
*methods* of teaching. Why on earth do we, as Baha's in America, get bogged
down in talking shop about methods? Like this is an assembly line at a Ford
Motor plant and we're all standing around having a big hissy-fit about where
the damn U-bolt goes! Meanwhile the cars keep rolling off the line . . . down
the ramp . . . across the yard . . . into the slough where all those
wonderful chemicals are that make our lives so much better.
The issue is not about method. Method is something you concern yourselves
with after you have carefully surveyed the socio-cultural landscape where you
find yourself and start figurin' what is the best *way* to deliver the
message so as to produce positive results.
The issues raised a week ago were concerning our misconceptions of *what*
teaching the Cause is all about. We're talkin' fundamentals here. Like Terry
and Lora and Tony and others I have been around a long time. I don't want to
here any more crap about *age* either. I was running the Youth Movement in
these parts while I was in my mid-twenties, married, two children, going to
school full-time and working 40 hours a week. We travelled nearly every
week-end or had deepenings, projects, teaching events etc., at our lil'
apartment. Then the Movement was shut down. Time passed.
And then there was another *great new exciting, wonderful* WE'RE GONNA DO
IT THIS TIME GANG! thing begun out here in Oregon. As usual lots of
excitiment. And as an *old* veteran I was asked to help out. When I started
seeing how things were shaping up, you know deja vu' all over again . . . I
tried to warn the folks. A number of us did. We were still there. Still
supporting it, but we were saying "Hey, HELLLLOO! We've been here before and
this just ain't gonna work and here is why."
And wouldn't you know . . . these *kids* who were raised on the coattails of
the last Movement started saying this same thing, "Oh you're just old now,
and bitter, and wanting the *glory days*, blah-de-blah-blah*" I should of
slapped them. First I was in far better physical condition then they were
(hey I work out 4x per week) and secondly it had nothing to do - with any of
us - (a good dozen or more) - with being bitter etc. We were talking
experience. We had seen this, been a part of *it* so many times and we had
come to recognize that there were some serious problems with the whole thing.
It wasn't about *method* or who was gonna bring the damn napkins . . . it was
and still is far more fundanmental than that.
It is about our mind set. It is about all the garbage we drag into the Faith
and then quietly integrate into it - wallpapering over it, sliding it over
into the corner, throwing a sheet over it, and then accepting it as part of
the decor. It is about what we *think* leadership is in the Faith. What we
*think* administration is all about. It is about the repeated mistakes we
make in our teaching the Cause. We make them. We fail to see the results we
so desire. Oh, occasionally we see a big flare-up (Atlanta, NC., Oregon,
California, Texas, Florida) and we have a big ole' celebration! "Ah Ha!," we
say. "You see! This is the way to do it! Now it's gonna REALLY happen!" And
then it too fades away.
And this is the amazing thing about us. We NEVER stop to ask ourselves "why?"
Anytime anyone does this they are immediatly shouted down. "You're being
NEGATIVE!" And then comes the torrent of late 20th century psycho-babble,
starting with the universal: "We need to be positive!"
Zeus, Apollo! Gods it is like having a David Smiley in every stinking meeting
you go to! If analyzing our mistakes and learning from them; if questioning
some long-held and possibly erroneous assumptions is being negative, then by
God Shoghi Effendi was THE MOST negative fellow I ever read in the Faith!
Come on people, have you really _read_ ADVENT OF DIVINE JUSTICE, CITADEL OF
FAITH, and numerous other works concerning our present day social structure?
I guess the satement below is a real downer then:
>>"Exultant as we are over the remarkable feats you have attained, both
those already cited and those too numerous to mention, we cannot help noting
the sad lag in the rate of your enrollments, a lag which is conspicuously at
variance with the high energy of your endeavors and the teaching oppotunities
abounding in your richly blessed land. We call this to your attention not to
cause distress but rather to stir a deeper consciousness of your immediate
possibilities, to arouse you to new heights of action."<<
(Universal House of Justice, Ridvan 1984)
And there are many other quotes. All of them ask us to re-examine and
jettison old *templates* that hamper the spirit of the Faith by trying to
make it fit out-moded patterns. Patterns we carry around all day and of which
we may, at best, only be dimly aware.
Let us look at our history. Our track record. If being giddily perky and
upbeat were the basic ingredients to entry by troops we would have won over
half the country by now. I have never met such a consistantly "I'm Perky but
I don't know why?!!!?" group as the Baha'is. It's scary really. What was in
those cookies at feast?!
But we have not succeeded. Not even close. Not even a good hiccup really.
And we are so afraid of asking why. "Why we can't stop this great teaching
project to ask WHY we're not succeeding! We must push on, and on! We will
succeed! You just wait and see!" Reminds me of one of those pathetic British
generals fighting the natives. Outnumbered 90 to 1, they've got three rounds
of ammo left and the whiskered old fool still thinks they've got a fighting
chance. Get real grandpa . . .
Just stop folks. Have the guts to ask yourselves *why?* You think you were
the first to be excited, adament, committed, willing to sacrifice? Think you
were the first to go to parks and sing? Think you were the first to hold lots
of public meetings and canvas the city handing out great-looking phamplets?
No, I doubt there is anything new under the sun when it comes to teaching
ideas for the good old US of A. And we are going nowhere still . . .
And we will continue to sit in the garage and turn the wheel, honk the horn
and yell at the other kids on the block to "Look at Us!!" so long as we keep
thinking, "Geez Beav, if we were just a lil' more giddy with excitment, like
those Amyway sales-folk, well maybe, just maaaayyybe . . .?!"
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
From: AGhosh@uh.edu
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 17:15:57 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: jim's long post
To: talisman@indiana.edu
I do not know why you consider all these efforts a failure. Even if it
brought one soul wasn't it worth the effort.
Call me selfish, but the only 7 days I spent in Lewisville has enriched
my life in so many ways and Bahaullah gave me so many blessings spiritual
and material that I will continue to do what I do regardless of what others
think
Anyway, I know it's time for me to go but it's hard to give up the addiction.
As Abdul-Baha says we grow little by little, day by day. You automatically
assume that youth have NOT studied any history. But look into the efforts
and may be you see the maturity little by little day by day. Starting
from essentially individual efforts in South Carolina to NSA-led efforts
to LSA-led efforts etc.
Love
Arindam
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 17:58:12 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Saman Ahmadi
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: MisAghiyeh Hospital
> I do remember that MisAghiyeh Hospital had direct connnections
> to the Faith.
Saman jan--
Wasn't it all of the share-holders, 90% of the doctors, staff &
administration of the MisAghiyeh Hospital were Baha'is, not to mention
that all of us Tehrooni kids in the last 30 or so years were all born
there ;-)
Nima
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 19:34:34 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: Iranian bashing
Dear Ahang and Nima ,
I must have missed this post . Dont worry in this country we are used
to American bashing - hey its why I have to do my occasional cheerlead for
thre good old U.S.A.
I am sure there are some quaint thoughts about the Faith that would be
attributed to people of Iranian background . Then there are some pretty
quaint thoughts that can be attributed to Bahais of an American or Western
background . Why just recently I heard that "somewhere in the writings it
says . . ." now that is one of the greatest of American chestnuts. And of
course the notion that the great calamities were going to come and wipe out
all the evil people from the earth and leave it for God's children (us). That
one circulated in various forms for so long that the Universal House of
Justice had to send Peter Kahn here to calm down all that eschatological end
time frenzy. Then of course I have heard this one over the years from
American Bahai's of non Persian origin that Bahau llah approved the
persecution of the Jewish people for what "they" did to Jesus but it would
all be forgiven once they recognized Bahau llah .
But as for incredible things of Persian origin did I ever tell you about
this Prophet from Shiraz and a second one from , i think it was Nur. If
Persia had no other claim to fame than those two fellows it would be enough .
Then of course there is Hafiz . So the next time somebody gets a litle
quaint in there descriptions of cultural difference just remember the
qaintness of American Bahai's . And this from the guy whose big goal in life
is to walk from Mashad to Barfarush -- that and to more than anything else
visit the Siyah Chal . Some quaint Persian once told me this Prophet from
Nur spent some there , he made me cry and my life has never been the same .
And remember contrary to the rumors Bahau llah was not born in Texas. I
dont care what Ahang says .
warmest regards and proud to be a Bahai,
Terry
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 15:01:13 PST8PDT
Subject: abandoning his tact/ Re: Iranian bashing
Well, it certainly may have lacked delicacy.
> Date sent: Fri, 12 Jan 96 14:50:01 -0500
> From: "Ahang Rabbani"
> To: talisman@indiana.edu
> Subject: Iranian bashing
> [This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
>
>
> > I believe what you are describing is an "Iranian Outlook" on the
> > question of Quddus.
Probably should have said "typically an occasionally Iranian Outlook"?
See the last paragraph for such a qualification.
> > In my experience, there have been many issues which
> > Persians generally don't talk to westerners (ourselves) about. These
> > positions may be irrational or simply indulgent but I like to think that
> > there may be something there.
My interpretation of the statement "but I like to think that
there may be something there.": he is saying that what MAY appear
to americans as "superstition" actually potentially has a deeper
spiritual meaning (that is culturally conditioned) than appears on
the surface.
> > I think your reaction to Ahang is an
> > example of one of the reasons Iranian don't often talk about these ideas.
> > Maybe Ashang should be beheaded over this? I don't know.
BAD JOKE:
"Maybe Ashang should be beheaded over this?"
I think he was just exagerating his point by using a bad joke.
> > I used to
> > hear this and many other things during my time at Berkeley. Some other
> > Iranian chesnuts are the ideas that one cannot pray to God--I even heard
> > it said that our prayers can't even reach Badi. Another suggests that
> > Baha'u'llah always knew he was the Prophet of God and another was, quite
> > unbelieveably, that Baha'u'llah was greater than the other Prophets. Now
> > let be cautious here-- I 'm not saying that Iranians in general believe
> > these things--what I am saying is it seems there are proponents of
> > certain extra-scriptural concepts.
We'll, if people can thrash each other about how americans have
introduced culturally conditioned "Kitab-i-Hearsay" into Baha'i
culture, maybe some people will want to do the same for the Persians.
It is all rude, especially when the criticism is implicitly related
to a fine person that posts on a certain topic (Quddus).
I hope an apology and not a flame war is forthcoming.
>
>
> The above statement is so profoundly racist that I won't dignify
> it with a rebuttal.
>
> Ahang Rabbani, proud to be an Iranian Baha'i!
>
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 08:57:34 EST
Subject: Re: Political Views
Dear Doug,
GO FOR IT MY MAN!!
The word "shameful" is right! If I did not have to type while standing
up, I will write more. As I said, I hit the tailbone falling on ice.
Sprititual redneck and simpleton from North Carolina,
QUANTA DAWN-LIGHT
p.s. Need I say anymore??
*Instigator* --- tha
t sounds awfully negative about a representative of our
government. I thought Baha'is were supposed to be politically neutral and
*not* work for a political........
And this comes from XXXXXXXX XXXX at USBNC --- I presume that is the
United
States Baha'i National Center. Is that correct? If so, this solicitation
is IMHO even more shameful.
I know this was posted a few days ago, but I had to cool down before I wrote
this or the level of *explitives* that would have been deleated would have
made this post look like a piece of swiss cheese.
One more thought: The title of the post was *help save Sesame Street*. As
far as that goes Sesame Street *makes* *millions* of dollars. not only
do they not need saving, for is PBS folded they would go to a commercial
station, it would not suprrise me if they could afford to pick up the tab
for all of PBS.
I have heard a lot on Talisman about the Baha'i Administration and its
functioning. Here is IMHO a perfect example of starting down a slippery
slope --- to what? God only knows.
Doug Myers
nightbrd@humboldt1.com
"Nothing surives but the way we live our lives." JB
=END=
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 96 17:31 PST
To: "Ahang Rabbani"
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: letter on Writings of Baha'u'llah
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Delete the line from your entreaty to the House:
>we implore the House of Justice not
to deprive us any longer of this incomparable blessing.
This line implies an "active, intentional act of deprivation" in the part of
the UHJ and, as such, is accusatory and insulting.
It translates to me as: We beg you to stop depriving us, you meanies"
I would simply leave it out. Change the word "petition" to "suggestion"
I would also acknowledge- to myself at least, that maybe the House has
something in the works already (or may respond with "please memorize the
entire contents of Prayers and Meditations and recite them at Ridvan, then
write us again.")
Love,
Burl
who has yet to internalize even the surface of any of Baha'u'llah's
writings. Hey! Remember the old candy bar 7-up (not related to the soft drink)?
I hadn't thought of it in years when suddenly, while typing this post, it
came to mind. WOW! How Mystical! What is the hidden meaning of THAT?
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 20:34:52 -0600 (CST)
From: Paul Easton
To: Talisman
Subject: Wisconsin Baha'is
What really bugs me are the Wisconsin Baha'is who insist on calling water
fountains "bubblers"...
Every time I hear or read "Baha'i" prefaced with a race, gender,
nationality, etc. I find myself cringing a little.
I truely believe that a true Baha'i society will be a pluralistic one.
That one can be a Baha'i and a proud Chinese; a Baha'i and a proud woman,
etc. But when you begin to affix other words to "Baha'i" such as
"intellectual", "lay", "Iranian", "extra-terrestrial", "amphibious"
etc... it can be dangerously divisive. We lose site of our ultimate
spiritual grounding.
Just a tired thought from an Irish/English/Norweigan/Swedeish/French-
midwest-hug-me-and-I'll-hit-you-;)-Minnesotan-man-Baha'i.
Yours,
_____________________________________________________________________________
Paul C. Easton
_____________________________________________________________________________
HOME || WORK
________________________________________||___________________________________
2321 Jersey Street || UW-Stevens Point
Stevens Point, WI 54481 || International Programs
|| Stevens Point, WI 54481-3897
PHONE: (715) 344-4174 || PHONE: (715) 346-2717
E-MAIL: peaston@worf.uwsp.edu || FAX: (715) 346-3591
________________________________________||___________________________________
O Lord! make us firm in Thy love and cause us to be loving toward the
whole of mankind. Confirm us in service to the world of humanity, so
that we may become the servants of Thy servants, that we may love all Thy
creatures and become compassionate to all Thy people. -`Abdu'l-Baha'
=END=
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 18:04:11 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Manifestation and Prophets of God
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Robert Johnston" ,
"Doug Myers" , ,
>This also represents a misunderstanding of the station of the
>Manifestation. The Writings (etc) are clear that Jesus shares the same
>station as Moses and Muhammad
Let it NOT be said that I inferred a lesser station for Jesus. It is
within the capabilities of all the manifestations to exibit all the
qualities thereof but it is not a requirement. I was just attempting to
illustrate that there aren't hard and fast rules concerning the
attributes that each Manifestation in turn would display, but rather
that, the Minor Prophets have certain characteristics in common with the
Major Manifestations such as revelatory writings. Nonetheless, Quddus
apparently had a station, that as of yet, has not been truely understood,
in my judgment.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 17:56:44 -0800
To: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi), talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re: Cricket vs. Football
Hello, Give me directions to your house, I can bring the popcorn and
Pepsi.... And make sandwiches during halftime if you buy the fixin's...
like those ones in New York...
LOL LOL
Warmly, Margreet
who is going to be scrubbing floors on Sunday....
At 12:37 PM 1/12/96 -0900, Arsalan J. Sadighi wrote:
>Forgive me for not being very spiritual.
>
>AFC Football Championship: Sunday at 9:00 AM AST Colts vs. Steelers
>NFC Football Championship: Sunday at 12:00 AST Cowboys vs. Packers
>
>Superbowl soon enough. I will keep you updated.
>
>Best regards,
>
>Arsalan
>
>P.S. Mr. Curtotti, to my chagrin, decided to get off the list so he could
>get something done! Know what I mean?
>
>
>>Forgive the rambling... I have been up since 6 to take my daughter
>>swimming...and I stayed up last night to watch Australia play Sri Lanka at
>>cricket at Perth.... New Zealand plays Zimbabwe in New Zealand, starting
>>today... A different world, folks... Speaking of which, I wonder what's
>>happened to those two noble Australasians, Ahmad and Michael (Curtotti)....
>>
>>Robert.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>Arsalan J. Sadighi
>P.O. Box 23076
>Juneau, AK 99802-3076
>(907) 463-4668 Residence
>(907) 465-5776 Business
>(907) 463-4648 Residential Fax
>(907) 465-3450 Business Fax
>
> "Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
> that is clearly none of your business!" Battista
>
>
=END=
From: Rick Schaut
To: "talisman@indiana.edu" ,
"Alethinos@aol.com"
Subject: RE: Teaching: What it is and is not/chasing our tails
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 17:42:32 -0800
Dear Jim and talizens,
From: Alethinos@aol.com[SMTP:Alethinos@aol.com]
> Just stop folks. Have the guts to ask yourselves *why?*
Is there some reason we have to stop before we can ask that
question? The rudder doesn't work if the boat ain't moving.
Indeed, a good part of the problem in the past is that we haven't
had institutions constantly and consistently monitoring and
evaluating the teaching efforts. We aren't going to get it
right the first time, and trying too hard to do so can paralyze
us. An experimental attitude goes a very long way.
>No, I doubt there is anything new under the sun when it comes to teaching
>ideas for the good old US of A. And we are going nowhere still . . .
Taken in isolation, you're right. Every element we've been
implementing here in Seattle has been done in some way or
another somewhere else and with varying degrees of success.
What hasn't happened before, however, is the particular
combination of elements. Increasingly, our answer to the
question, "Should we do X or Y?" is "Yes." When was the
last time you saw a teaching plan that combined the direct
teaching of full-time teaching teams with the indirect teaching
of social or economic development projects? (Actually, I can
think of a few instances where these elements have been
combined, and the projects have been absolutely resounding
successes. The Woodburn project comes to mind.)
And, of course, if you've read my bio, you know which team
I'll be pulling for on Sunday. Pass the cheese, and give me a
hunk of sausage.
Warmest Regards,
Rick
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 11:48:39 +1300 (NZDT)
To: nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers), talisman@indiana.edu,
nineteen@onramp.net, rabbana@a1.bmoa.umc.dupont.com
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Manifestation and Prophets of God
Dear Doug,
Yes, that is the quotation. Thanks.
Agreeing with Ahang, who has now fallen silent on the subject, you write:
>In reading the discussion on the three Manifestations I am convinced that
>Quddus is certianly to be included in this Honorable Company.
You give a quotation from the Guardian in support of your case:
>"The Prophets 'regarded as One and the same person' include the Lesser
>Prophets as well, and not merely Those Who bring a 'Book'. The station is
>different, but they are Prophets and Their nature thus different from that
>of ours." (From a letter written on behalf of Shogh Effendi to an
>individual believer, Feb. 8, 1949, "Lights of Guidance", 2nd ed., p. 498, #
>1673)
In this passage "The Prophets 'regarded as One and the same person'" are
distinguished from other beings -- including the Guardian and us. To
assume the passage can be read to mean that "The Prophets 'regarded as One
and the same person'" are all Manifestations of God in the same station as
the Bab and Baha'u'llah goes against what is actually stated: "The station
is different,"the Guardian says.
Imagine a school boy who assumes that all members of the teaching staff
have the same station, not knowing that within the removed and exalted
staffroom there is a distinct and meaningful hierarchy. (It is possible
that one of the teachers has especially talented and could assume
headmastership, should the headmaster die or depart. But, tying the
analogy back to the Faith, this does not happen, and the teacher is never
headmaster...)
I actually think we are dealing with a fairly serious misunderstanding of
the Faith here, and that the wisest course may be consult with the House.
However...let's let the matter run so that we can all express our sincerely
held arguments.
Richard Logan's argument is similar to yours. He also says, however,
"Additionally, in my humble judgment, Jesus the Christ did not bring a
"Book" as did Moses and Muhammad..."
This also represents a misunderstanding of the station of the
Manifestation. The Writings (etc) are clear that Jesus shares the same
station as Moses and Muhammad. The Book -- I suppose -- represents the
arrival in the world of new universal teachings -- especially laws -- from
God.
Robert.
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 96 19:02:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: an apology
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
I appreciate Arsalan's, Eric's and Terry's efforts to bring peace,
as well as my brother Nima's voice of support. Now that I've
enjoyed a sunny (75 degree) afternoon of basketball with my sons
and have calmed, I believe I owe Richard an apology for having
over-reacted. Sorry, Richard. You were gracious enough to just
post a note of apology, but in truth it is I who should do so.
The problem I think stems from the fact that Iranian Baha'is come
from a culture where going to meetings and hearing a learned
speaker was almost a daily routine. So, many of them remember
things from these meetings, but also most are not used to reading
for themselves. As such its easy for them to have a vague
recollection of the teachings without knowing the actual
references.
However, we must also recognize that because of accident of birth,
at the present time, they have an advantage over the Western
believers by virtue of having access to thousands of Tablets that
are not translated. So, even if the Persian believers for the most
part have not read these, at least they have attended many meetings
where someone who had read them spoke about them. So, I wouldn't
be so quick to dismiss their understandings.
That's why a number of us are pushing so hard for the institutions
to make more of the Writings available so that this disadvantage is
permanently removed.
There is another point to bear in mind which is we need to
gradually let go of our Judeo-Christian ontological formulations
and grow closer to Islamic-Babi-Baha'i notion of divinity. This is
a very difficult thing to do. Notice for example my brother,
Robert's, difficulty with accepting Quddus being a Manifestation
without inaugurating a new Dispensation. Such a notion, as Juan
beautifully explained, is totally foreign to Judeo-Christian
thinking. So, this requires, as Shoghi Effendi say, a much deeper
appreciation of the Qur'an and Islamic philosophy.
Anyway, enough of that. I just wanted to apologize to Richard for
going over the deep end.
Note to Terry: Of course Baha'u'llah wasn't from Texas, everyone
knows that. But Texas is where he was exiled and is now buried.
Haven't you read He was sent to Palestine (TX)? And I have in my
possession an authentic historical narrative documenting that He
went to the westcoast with Abdu'l-Baha (I believe about the same
time that Abdu'l-Baha tried to enroll at Stanford University but
after one speech dropped out) and when They got to the beach, He
pointed to the town of Carmel (CA) and said: I want my seat here
(obviously referring to His sun chair). And after spending a day
at the beach and enjoying the sun, revealed the commentary on the
Sura of Sun.
Anyway, if you're not familiar with this information, just say to
people: I heard it from a Persian Baha'i!
love to all, ahang.
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 17:18:23 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: sociobiology & genetic potentialism
Dear Talismans,
Thanks to Juan for his excellent deconstruction of sociobiology and genetic
determinism.
I'd like to add a few more comments about the points he has raised: (1) on
the insidious book _The Bell Curve_, (2) on Maslow and finally (3) on the
difference between a determinist view of the human genome and a potentialist
view of the power of the human soul, operating in this shadow world through
our DNA.
1. The Bell Curve.
The argument of this book--at least the part which received prominence and is
currently being cited by paramilitary groups and other wackos--was that the
general IQ of whites was slightly higher than the general IQ of blacks.
(I'll say nothing about within-group variation being more significant than
between-group variation or flawed data collection procedures.) What is not
being cited is that the "study" also indicated that the general IQ of Asians
is higher than that of whites. During our San Francisco ABS meeting, I
visited my undergraduate campus, UC Berkeley (BA, Sociology), and had lunch
with friends. We spoke about Cal's recent move to end affirmative action in
both admissions policy and hiring. Their comment: The student body will
probably become mainly Asian and Asian-American!!! (One of the authors of
_Bell Curve_ was a Cal prof--he's dead now!)
2. Maslow (key book for those interested: 1970. _Motivation and Personality_.
New York: Harper & Row).
30 years ago the great psychologist Maslow developed a framework for
understanding human needs which still remains one of the most compelling
paradigms in motivational research, and presently underlies nearly all
educational theory. He suggested that human needs are arranged in a
hierarchy, with the most basic having to be satisfied first, then the next
level, then the next, and so on. Presenting them in the order which they must
be met before moving to the next level, they are:
physiological needs, security needs, belonging needs, status needs and self
actualizing needs.
By considering Maslow's needs hierarchy, we can understand how someone like
Princess Diana, for example, who seems to have everything, can be lonely and
miserable despite her wealth, beauty etc. etc. Her needs for self
actualization have not been answered at all.
>From the spiritual perspective, we would say this last need can only be
fully
met by the recognition of the Manifestation, obedience to His Laws and living
our lives in service to humanity. Service and selflessness will meet human
needs for self-actualization as spiritual beings.
3. Juan has correctly pointed out the down side of considering that human
limits are genetically defined. Nonetheless, our human nature is endowed by
our genes. Over 90% of our genes are the same as those of other primates. We
are mainly different in possessing an elaborated neocortex, the most recently
evolved and advanced part of the brain. On the basis of our body size, we
have much more neocortex than other primates. The functions of language,
consciousness and probably (as I have suggested here and will argue in a
scholarly literature review in the future) the capacity to manifest spiritual
virtues are located in the association cortex.
'Abdu'l-Baha has said that God's greatest gift to man is the
intellect--located in the neocortex.
However, we are more than our genes. 'Abdu'l Baha has said that this world is
a shadow world of the Kingdom. So our brain and its consciousness are analogs
of our essentially spiritual nature. I would like to suggest that our
potential for manifesting spiritual virtues and qualities in this world is
mediated by our brain structure, yet actualized by our will. Bahau'llah has
said that all we potentially possess can only be manifested as the result of
our own effort. This is where a potentialist view differs from a
deterministic view.
As spiritual beings, we potentially possess that which makes us 'the Supreme
Talisman'. It is up to us, through effort, to bring that potentiality into
reality.
(Bev has asked, are genes immortal. Molecular biologists have facetiously
said that life forms exist only to insure the immortality of genes by passing
them on through the generations, even though the individual units live only a
short time!)
Best,
Sandy
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 20:07:34 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: In it for the looooong haul
Is it me! Are you talkin' to me!! It's ME isn't it!! It must be ME!!!!
Get off it young buck. Let's start this with getting rid of YOU and ME,
ok?? Let's let the cult of Individualism tumble down the hillside for a
moment shall we. Perhaps we can disassociate ourselves from our ego Worldview
that we might step back and take a good long look at what is and is not going
on.
It is _not_ about you dear Arindam. Nor is it about all those wonderful
youth that were in Texas. Nor the wonderful folk that were way down in North
Carolina so long ago. It is not about assigning BLAME at all.
Nor is it to say that the good that did come out of all those actions and
the countless others were not worth it. I don't believe anyone here, if you
have been reading carefully, has ever said that. You certainly won't here me
say it was bad because someone joined the Cause.
Since I have already picked Pittsburg to go all the way today, let's go
back to the football analogy I was using just last week.
It does the team no good to continuously praise them while they lose 96 to
7. We can mention that the one touchdown we got was good; we can study how
that was done. But our main goal should be to re-assess _why_ we lost by 89
points. Finding out who failed to do their job (and in this case would likely
be the whole team) is not the same as beating them with a stick and telling
them how ugly their mother is.
Another thing. I did not *assume* that *all* youth do not know their
history. Let's get something straight here. I am not evening talking about
the youth per se. I am speaking about the entire national Baha'i community. I
learned a long time ago as a young fellow (I can say this now that I am among
the Realm of the Ancient Youth) that constantly stressing the Us(youth) vs
Them(old toads) does little for bringing people together (let alone getting
the bucks you need for that next caravan to a conference.)
But I can tell you this. Most adult Baha'is let alone the youth are ill
prepared - poorly deepened. And of those that strut around saying how they
read the KI in a week-end or studied in in an intensive deepening for (Oh my
God! five whole days with only one afternoon volleyball break!) the majority
of them haven't given it the *thought* and *meditation* it deserves. I'm
saying this from vast experience. I have stood before more self-righteous and
smug pseudo-intellectuals and *I'm so smart I sometimes scare myself* college
youth and watched the majority of them stumble the moment they are asked to
do something as simple as putting one of the Guardian's lines of thought in
context with a present situation.
We're all real good at doing the *Christian* thing; quoting chapter and
verse. We stand around nodding sagaciously and we don't have a clue. And you
want to know how I and some of us other old farts know this my dear yound
friend?
Because the answer is in the pudding. "You will know them by their fruits"
is not just a test for Prophets.
>> I bear witness, O friends!
that the favor is complete, the argument fulfilled, the proof
manifest and the evidence established. Let it now be seen what
your endeavors in the path of detachment will reveal. In this
wise hath the divine favor been fully vouchsafed unto you
and unto them that are in heaven and on earth. All praise
to God, the Lord of all Worlds.
(Persian Hidden Words, pages 81-82)<<
If you read the Guardian and the Master - specifically what they said
about America and what the Vision was that they held for it and then compare
it to our history it is as clear as the noon day sun that we have so far
failed. If you continue to insist that I or the others are trying to lay
blame then know this; there is plenty of blame to go around. We, as a group
of people with a common bond have failed. This is not to say there hasn't
been wonderful things achieved by individuals; or a few brave souls who
banded together - but over all we have not pulled it off. It is just like
that football game. There may have been a few sterling performances; a few
brilliant moments, but overall we lost the game.
Arindam if you could just for a moment suppose that you really don't know
what it is we are truly talking about here, that we might have a point or
two, and that we love the Cause perhaps even more than you and your young
friends since we have stuck it out through so much and are not only still
here, but still filled with hope - maybe you might find that we are allies
and not foes. Maybe you'll find that we are not being *negative* but rather
trying very hard to bring about a wonderful thing - America's spiritual
destiny.
Or maybe you'll just go on echoing the same valiant sentiments we have
heard so many times from so many beautiful souls that have all but faded from
the landscape. I have known so many who were just so sure that *they* were
the ones to do it; *they* had the love and the grit to do it; *they* were
loyal, *they* were not bitter and negative. And where are *they*?
jim harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 17:15:30 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: sociobiology 2-Stephen Gould
Dear Talismans,
Not to tie up your mailboxes with my endless dense posts, but Juan has
referred to one of my heros, Stephen Jay Gould. A well-known evolutionary
biologist and anatomist, he nonetheless writes accessibly for everyone, and
his important book (1981) _The Mismeasurement of Man_. (New York: W.W.
Norton) is of great significance in my field because it gives a detailed
account of the methodological flaws in the extremely biased IQ research which
"demonstrated" the "inferior intelligence" of non-English speaking immigrants
at the beginning of this century.
Best,
Sandy
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 17:53:22 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Welcome to Richard Logan
Hi, Richard,
Welcome to this list and don't be intimidated by performative postings by
academics (myself included). Some of the deepest insights are *not* from
members of the Academy.
I graduated from Cal in 1965 and was president (car driver, leaflet
distributor and general gofer because there were so few members) of the
Baha'i College Club during the Free Speech Movement!
Best,
Sandy Fotos
Tokyo, Japan
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 09:02:39 EST
Subject: "...first counsel.." holophrastic essay
I will continue with this when I am up and about running in the
woods of North Carolina with my simpleton, redneck and spiritual
hearted beloved friends, shooting at ....
love,
Quanta
------- Forwarded Message Follows -------
From: Self
To: bahai-st@jcccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us
Subject: "...first counsel.." holophrastic essay
Date sent: Sun, 14 Jan 1996 14:26:09 EST
Dear friends,
As indicated before, I will be contemplating holophrastically
speaking, on one of the Hidden Words. I will be using mostly
the Webster's New World Dictionary, College Edition, 1957 and
Unabridged ed., 1983 I will indicate *'57* or *'83* in the essay.
The difference is due to one being in the office the other at home.
*'57-Holophrastic: expressing an entire sentence or phrase in one word.
First, I would like to clarify that these are my own limited
understanding of what I read. Perhaps, I should say,
the Words read me and I reflect my own understanding
which is conditioned by life's experiences. In short,
as we say these are unauthorative personal reflections.
Since, I am more of a matrix minded individual, I will
be making many connections with the meanings of
different words with other articles as well. I hope
it will not prove to be burdensome.
****************************************************
O SON OF SPIRIT! My first counsel is this: Possess a pure,
kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty ancient,
imperishable and everlasting._ Baha'u'llah
****************************************************
My first reaction was the first counsel is not to possess a keen,
knowledge-filled, intelligent mind. I'm not diminishing its value
which will be made clear when I address the entrainment of
head and heart from another article.
***************
In the first Hidden Word, Baha'u'llah addresses the "Son of spirit".
Note that the "spirit" is defined by Webster ('83) as "the life
principle, especially in man, originally regarded as an animating
vapor infused by the breath, or as bestowed by a deity"
I don't want to get into language sementics about the word "man".
For, in my native language we use the word "insan" which means human.
So, Baha'ullah is addressing the spirit of the human in a logical
manner. IF you have .... THEN, you will.......
Here I see three adjectives desribing the heart which I will ponder upon.
In the second sentence, He *counsels* the spirit which is bestowed by the deity,
again the meaning that His desire is ('57) "to recommend; urge the acceptance
of an action, plan etc." He is not commanding, maybe because
spiritual development is a life-long, individual process and
actions and plans for the development is as diverse as the people on
earth based on their respective circumstances from womb to tomb.
The following sentence begins "possess a pure kindly and radiant
heart". To possess mean ('57) "to have as an attribute, quality,
faculty.. to keep control over; maintain;" So, it is not something
that we have instantly and keep it without effort. Once we attain
we must keep control and maintain it. What is pure? According to
Webster '57 "free from anything that adulterates, taints, impairs,
etc." Note that impair means "to make worse, less, weaker, etc.
damage; reduce; deteriorate". My understanding is that the
lack of purity will cause damages, weakness etc.. to the
individual and society as well. However, the plan and action to
purify the heart is dependent upon the degrees of impurity, internal
and the external conditions of the individual, his/her skills and
the tools available. For example, if one is a coal miner living
in primitive conditions vs. a white collar worker living
in a large city with all the modern tools available for cleaning
their clothes, the plan and action for cleaning their clothes will vary. YES??
I guess what I mean is we cannot judge the degree of one's purity
and their circumstances where they plan an action for fighting
their spiritual battles in trying to "possess a pure, kindly radiant
heart". But, we can for our ownselves. (God this is scary!!)
The second adjective is "kindly"which ('57) "SYN. implies
the possession of sympathetic or generous qualities, either
habitually or specifically, or is applied for actions manifesting
these". I thought it was interesting that kindness is applied either
habitually or specifically. Does this mean at times we cannot be
sympathetic and generous? Why? What about with criminals?
This will remain for the individual to decide.
The third adjective "radiant" is defined ('57) "showing pleasure,
joy, well-being etc.". Then, my thought is that when the conditions
of the first two are met there is a joy and well-being and pleasure
which will be reflective in our relationships. (So, help us God!)
Now, the Word "heart". I think it is very important that we understand
as to why Baha'u'llah did not say brain, lungs etc. etc. He said
"heart". Therefore, I will deal with this word with more depth.
The definition for heart ('83)" a muscular organ which is the
propelling agent of blood in the body.. From this organ the primary
arteries arise, and in it the main veins terminate..3.
the human heart regarded as
the seat of emotions, personality, attributes, etc.; hence,
the seat of the emotions: said of the moral side of the
human nature in contradistinction to the intellectual.."
I was fascinated with these words themselves.
-Contradistinction ('83) "distinction by opposite qualities..."
-Intellect "..the ability to reason, perceive or understand..
ability to perceive relations, differences, etc. distinguished from
will, feeling..."
My thoughts then is that there is a difference between "reasoning,
perceiving" and feeling sympathy, love, generosity which are the
functions of the heart that Baha'u'llah asks us to possess.
It is difficult for me to decide which is more important. I have no
clue. The only thing I get out of this is that the ability to reason
does not imply ability to love, to have sympathy and generosity.
They are different qualities.
But, I will share paragraphs of an article which I found
interesting. I will post its source from the internet also.
"Entrainment is when two or more systems synchronize and work
together at a higher degree of efficiency...Other systems in the body
also entrain to the heart rhythms, such as respiratory rate, blood
pressure waves and with PRACTICE the brain waves also can entrain
to the heart. This is called head/heart entrainment."
Does this mean that the heart automatically feels compassion, love,
sympathy, but only can express them when brain waves are entrained
with the heart through practice? Practice what? How does having plans
of action to purify the heart to have sympathetic, generous feelings
fit into the this? As you see my mind is going ???? miles/hour on
this. At this point, I am going to leave you with these thoughts and
hopefully you will be able to help me understand. Thank you.
I will continue later on. The first counsel is not finished yet.
All I can say is that we can take a single "part" with which we can
have a holistic view of things. Forgive me, if I rambled too long.
lovingly,
Quanta Dawn-Light
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 18:19:09 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: "Richard C. Logan"
Cc: Talisman
Subject: Re: abandoning his tact/ Re: Iranian bashing
> It looks like I hit a nerve instead. What a pathetic physician I make!
> Please do not account me with those who would to the extent of the "pupil
> in the eye of a dead ant" lessen the accomplisments and sagaciousnes of
> our Iranian co-religionists.
Ahhh, the evils of cyberspace! No facial gestures or body-language
cues to go on, so one can hardly ever tell if someone is being for real,
humorous or just plain tongue-in-cheek sarcastic. I apologize for being
offended...just a little hypersensitive when I detect the least trace of
Iranian-bashing.
> I feel like I've become like Jesse Jackson saying Hymie town about New
> York. Perhaps I should be beheaded.
Richard, you're one funny guy ;-)
Nima
=END=
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 10:09:12 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Grammar
To our good friend Burl:
While it is true that the Bab denigrated grammar, identifying morphology
and syntax with two Babylonian necromancers mentioned in the Qur'an, the
Babi dispensation is over and Harut and Marut (the said wizards) are back
in respectability. Not long before his ascension, Baha'u'llah reedited
his early works to free them of some of the varagaries of Babi grammar.
Go forth, brother, and do likewise.
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 14:18:51 -0900
To: "Richard C. Logan" ,
"Doug Myers" , ,
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Manifestation and Prophets of God, again
Dear Richard,
You wrote:
Nonetheless, Quddus
>apparently had a station, that as of yet, has not been truely understood,
>in my judgment.
Perhaps. So why call him a Manifestation of God in the same station as the
Bab and Baha'u'llah? This seems utterly unhelpful, especially when every
child in every Baha'i children's class is taught and knows different. This
whole matter has the form of a spectacularly fanciful mistake...which
strikes at the heart of the pledge that each of us made when we became
Baha'is. Is Ahang suggesting that we should now change the form of
declaration cards, and so on..?
Ultimately my plea is to logic and the Covenant.
Robert.
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 22:18:01 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Persia, - Iowa that is
Dear Ahang ,
You had me Literally - rolling with laughter on the floor . My children
, not being used to such behavior , are concluding that Talisman is causing
their father to go nuts . They are preparing to request John remove from the
list .
Just a quick question . As Persia is just nearby , would I find the
Siyah Chal there in some dusty basement ? I am still working on my Siyah
Chal piece. The problem is I really do cry when I contemplate it .
I am serious about walking from Mashad to Barfarush
Just ask Arman Hamraie . He knows I am nuts.
much love ,
terry
p. s. I can see that this unity thing between Jim Harrison and me is going to
be put to a profound test . I am a Packer Backer .
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 21:09:44 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: an apology
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Talisman"
Dear Ahang,
Please don't apologize, only arrogance could have led me to have written
such a thing.
The western Baha'is treasure their Persian brethern but are very poor at
expressing it. I'm a case in point.
The Guardian warned against being cold towards the Persian
believers--that they would not understand such allofness. I fell victim
to this vice.
I, personally, could never conceive of diminishing the understanding of
the Iranian believers, but alas, I failed to clearly express my
sentiments. Sometimes words fail me, but don't doubt my strong regard.
Baha'i Love to All
Richard
>I appreciate Arsalan's, Eric's and Terry's efforts to bring peace,
>as well as my brother Nima's voice of support. Now that I've
>enjoyed a sunny (75 degree) afternoon of basketball with my sons
>and have calmed, I believe I owe Richard an apology for having
>over-reacted. Sorry, Richard. You were gracious enough to just
>post a note of apology, but in truth it is I who should do so.
>
>
>The problem I think stems from the fact that Iranian Baha'is come
>from a culture where going to meetings and hearing a learned
>speaker was almost a daily routine. So, many of them remember
>things from these meetings, but also most are not used to reading
>for themselves. As such its easy for them to have a vague
>recollection of the teachings without knowing the actual
>references.
>
>However, we must also recognize that because of accident of birth,
>at the present time, they have an advantage over the Western
>believers by virtue of having access to thousands of Tablets that
>are not translated. So, even if the Persian believers for the most
>part have not read these, at least they have attended many meetings
>where someone who had read them spoke about them. So, I wouldn't
>be so quick to dismiss their understandings.
>
>That's why a number of us are pushing so hard for the institutions
>to make more of the Writings available so that this disadvantage is
>permanently removed.
>
>There is another point to bear in mind which is we need to
>gradually let go of our Judeo-Christian ontological formulations
>and grow closer to Islamic-Babi-Baha'i notion of divinity. This is
>a very difficult thing to do. Notice for example my brother,
>Robert's, difficulty with accepting Quddus being a Manifestation
>without inaugurating a new Dispensation. Such a notion, as Juan
>beautifully explained, is totally foreign to Judeo-Christian
>thinking. So, this requires, as Shoghi Effendi say, a much deeper
>appreciation of the Qur'an and Islamic philosophy.
>
>Anyway, enough of that. I just wanted to apologize to Richard for
>going over the deep end.
>
>
>Note to Terry: Of course Baha'u'llah wasn't from Texas, everyone
>knows that. But Texas is where he was exiled and is now buried.
>Haven't you read He was sent to Palestine (TX)? And I have in my
>possession an authentic historical narrative documenting that He
>went to the westcoast with Abdu'l-Baha (I believe about the same
>time that Abdu'l-Baha tried to enroll at Stanford University but
>after one speech dropped out) and when They got to the beach, He
>pointed to the town of Carmel (CA) and said: I want my seat here
>(obviously referring to His sun chair). And after spending a day
>at the beach and enjoying the sun, revealed the commentary on the
>Sura of Sun.
>
>Anyway, if you're not familiar with this information, just say to
>people: I heard it from a Persian Baha'i!
>
>
>love to all, ahang.
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 16:45:36 +1300 (NZDT)
To: "Ahang Rabbani" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Quddus
At 12:47 PM 12/1/96, Ahang Rabbani wrote:
>
>I'm sorry, Robert, but not everything in the Faith can be reduced
>to soundbites and the station of Quddus is one of them.
But my dear Ahang, I distinctly remember that it was you put Quddus on the
same pedastal as the Bab and Baha'u'llah, not me. Anyhow, your apology is
accepted.. ;-}
I was wondering when you would come to the party... ;-}
Robert, a western believer in a visionary Baha'i world.
=END=
Date: 15 Jan 96 09:37:57 EST
From: "Mary K. Radpour" <73074.1221@compuserve.com>
To: Talisman
Subject: reforms, forgiveness, etc.
Dear friends,
I've spent the past several days trying to decide which of approximately
1200 messages to read which sat in my system while I've been traveling or
otherwise occupied.... it is an interesting exercise in relevance, to say the
least. I noticed a few speculations about why I was not around, one of which
credited it to my being a psychotherapist.....interesting.
I found a few comments in the past few days very intriguing, as they
touch on my most deeply held concerns.
Arandam's passionate defense of teaching, Bev's remarks about there being room
for the heart's longings, Philip's extended metaphor about shock absorbers, and
Terry's energetic call for building Houses of Worship as a meaningful path of
service all struck me as being concerned with most serious business in front of
us--- making the Cause relevant to the needs of humanity and hence, leading to
significant growth. Some time back David Langness wrote some things about
service to the poor and homeless which has stayed with me, in part because of a
passage I discovered in gleanings which suggests that a great power is available
to those who enter into a relationship with those who are "abased" or
"downtrodden." Perhaps it is because I have a deep personal need for
integration of thought and action and feeling, but I feel that these comments
reflect that need as well.
I plan to be with a number of LSAs (6 or 7) this weekend who are
consulting about how to have a meaningful regional teaching plan. They have of
course been inspired by the work in Houston and other places and wish to learn
from the experience of others. We have in place many wonderful youth like
Arindam, who will offer their teaching services with passion. We have effective
administrators, who are capable and efficient and visionary. We have service
projects for the homeless and for illiteracy. We have some financial resources
and a mature spirit of sacrifice. We have effective teachers and true scholars
of the teachings. We have a wonderful racial, cultural, and socio-economic mix
of believers. We have all the right ingredients for success. But we have crazy
Baha'is, immoderate Baha'is, rigid and legalistic Baha'is, saintly Baha'is,
downright immoral Baha'is, pedestrian Baha'is and visionary Baha'is. What we do
not have is experience in mixing up these wonderful capacities with our personal
limitations in a way which does not get stuck. In my view, this involves
keeping our heads up so as to keep seeing the vision of possibilities and
staying inspired by it to steadfastness, even when the problem in front of us
requires sophisticated micro-surgery, for which we have little training and an
even shorter patience.
Philip's remarks about forgiveness seem to me to be particularly
relevant. In every Baha'i community I visit, I find friends who have been
disempowered by criticism and institutions which have been disempowered by
criticism. They may have extraordinary capacities, but criticism has them dead
in the water. I fear that our very American inclination to analyze and dissect
(so skillfully demonstrated in this forum) , which could be of such great
service in performing effective micro-surgery, has effected our steadfastness to
a vision of possibilities. What we need is a healthy dose of forgiveness, a
willingness to let people be rigid or crazy or immoderate or whatever, without
stopping what we are about, without allowing these inadequacies to define our
work or to limit our reliance upon the guidance of the institutions. Why do we
not EXPECT things to go wrong, as they must when we are just learning to walk?
Why do we not use the self-correcting mechanisms which the faith, in its magical
sophistication, offers us, such as asking for appeal of LSA decisions, or
writing to the House of Justice for guidance, or callling upon the Counsellors
and the institutions of the learned? I do not see how this will happen without a
powerful and sustaining clinging to the hem of the robe, a longing to please and
a conviction and hope that that longing will lead to success, a childlike wish
to offer gifts to the Lord, which allows us to take in every encouragement and
disregard criticism, while simultaneously keeping us open to instruction and
guidance. Terry suggests that we need daily communal prayers to sustain this
spirit. I agree. David suggests that we need meaningful service to sustain that
spirit. I agree. Bev says that we need tenderness in our mutual support in hard
times. I agree. Arandam suggests that we need passionate teachers to sustain
that spirit. I agree. Philip suggests a kind of self-correcting non-reactivity
to the inevitable stresses of the road. I agree.
When we have a deep conviction such as those expressed here, what stops
us from carrying them forward in our collective action? Why cannot we simply
say, "THAT'S RIGHT!" to one another?
Mr. Nakhjavani quoted to us a passage from the Master which I have never
seen in print which, if I recall properly, goes something like this: "Blessed is
he who is the sole helper of the Cause of God and blessed is he who is the sole
recipient of such help." His parse on that verse was that we must each believe
that we alone are personally responsible for the work of the Cause and act out
of that belief, while simultaneously believing that every other soul who arises
to serve the Cause has arisen to assist us personally. Were we to do this, we
would never hesitate and wait for someone else to get it right or welcome us
before we performed service, nor would we resent the offerings of others, even
when they are limited and inadequate, but would instead be encouraging and
nurturing.
Another ABM shared with me her story of going to a community which was
full of wonderful plans: the youth had great plans, the deepening committees had
marvelous plans for study, the street teachers were full of energy ---everyone
had wonderful plans. But nothing was happening. She is so sweet-natured that no
one was offended when she made this suggestion: would anyone be willing to make
an extraordinary sacrifice for their Lord? all were willing. Would anyone be
willing to sacrifice their plans and place them on the altar of the Lord?
quiet. Would anyone be willing to simply be a soldier and to march on the path
laid out for them by their institutions? quiet. I believe, with her, that all
the most glorious plans in the world are naught if we are unwilling to serve as
soldiers and follow the leadership of those whom God has designated as our
leaders: the Spiritual Assemblies. But who is willing to encourage these
Assemblies to exercise this leadership? Who will take the risk of being marched
into a swamp in order to convince the Assembly that it has the power to effect a
movement? Who will honor the generals at the Feast? Who will challenge the
bureaucrat to look up from his desk and to see a vision of possibility?
I'm glad to be back among you. Can't wait to hear more of your passionate
exchanges....
Love, Mary k
=END=
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 96 07:28:42+030
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: B'nai
Dear Mary:
Your comment is interesting, and has a valid point. In the case of holding
functions or times of worship in the Synogogue, or in a Jewish Centre,
perhaps we need to ask ourselves which is the greater need we are feeling:
The need to worship or the need for a separate identity.
If people confuse the Baha'i community with B'nai, perhaps one appropriate
response would be to politely say, "No, we are not connected
administratively to B'nai, but when we needed a place to pray, the Jewish
Community was the one who welcomed us."
Love,
Bev.
=END=
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 96 07:28:53+030
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: levels of forgiveness
Dear Philip:
I started out an exploration of what levels of forgiveness is encouraged by
the writings for us. The other levels of forgivness have a their origin
between the heart of the individual and God. Not being God, I am not in a
position to comment on these levels, but I suspect the Seven Valleys and the
Four Valleys, and Gleanings may have something to offer...perhaps a glimmer
of hope.
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 20:35:59 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: hwmiller@ccnet.com (Henry Miller)
Subject: Re: Iranian bashing
Talismanians aziz,
>They say that the cultural misunderstandings between Western and
>Persian Baha'is is a two-way-street, although sometimes one-way. More and
>more I'm coming to believe in the truth of this.
>
>Nima Hazini, also proud of being an Iranian Baha'i!
Yek ruz Mulla Nasreddin az Talisman postings ziad keh khand=E9 bud, saresh
khaili dard gereft.
Raft paluy=E9 doctor. :-)
Baha'i love,
Henry
Henry W. Miller
hwmiller@ccnet.com
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 96 19:57 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Great Expectations
I may have told this story before, but some new folks might enjoy it.
When entering the Eastern Washington home of Wallace McDonald, a
Baha'i pioneer to Ecuador in the '70s, Feast guests noted a beautifully
framed blue piece of paper adorned with precison lines of Arabic.
Highlighted in a place of obvious honor, it was a treat to the eyes, and
Baha'is spontaneously stopped to admire it. One woman, obviously touched and
moist eyed, asked Wally the meaning of the verses, to which he honestly
replied, "its a page from an owners manual for an Onan Gasoline Engine.
Looks impressive, doesn't it?"
Many are the lessons for those who ponder.
Burl
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: jwalbrid@indiana.edu
Cc: talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu, nightbrd@humboldt1.com
Subject: Re: prayer
Date: 15 Jan 1996 09:09:26 GMT
John -
I seem to have missed some posts from Talisman late last week also, so . . .
. .
Anyway, the statement that the impulse to pray is natural is a reported
statement of Abdu'l-Baha to Dr. Esslemont. See 'Prayer, Meditation and the
Devotional Attitude' next to the last quote from Abdu'l-Baha, or in the
Compilation of Compilations #1755, vol II, p236.
As to the question of the reciting prayers out loud or not; I have also seen
a statement on behalf of Shoghi Effendi on this issue. As I remember it,
it's at the end of a letter, and says something to the effect 'As to saying
the prayers aloud or silently, it does not matter'. However I have not been
able to locate the actual quote.
As to Doug's objection that 'recite' means to say out loud - tho' in popular
American English, recite has come to mean 'speaking to an audience', in
Standard Interrnational English, the primary meaning is to repeat or deliver
from a prepared or memorized text. That is, it is not extemporaneous.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 96 0:44:24 JST
From: "Stephen R. Friberg"
To: talisman@indiana.edu, friberg@will.brl.ntt.jp
Subject: Re: Islamic Mysticism
Dear Nima:
I loved your answers, and appreciate your taking my questions about Islamic
mysticism seriously. As a westerner educated in the European scientific
tradition, I feel that I have a responsibility to ask questions from its
perspective, even if such questions don't necessarily mirror my personal
convictions. If others on the list do the same, I believe that we could
rapidly -- and perhaps even radically -- deepen in our understanding of the
Islamic underpinnings of our Faith.
At the same time, I have the intellectual conviction that the teachings of
the Islamic saints, even if they do lay the groundwork for advancement into
the age of mankind's maturity (as I think to be the case), are still infused
with a spirit that I associate with mankind's immaturity. Let me illustrate:
ibn Arabi, according to his own pen, visited the foremost philosopher of his
time, Averroes, in Cordoba. Ibn Arabi's testimony? "He (Averroes) had
thanked God ... to have lived at a time when ... there exists a master
(referring to himself) ... who opens the locks of His (God's) doors." What I
am struck by is ibn Arabi's total lack of humility.
Again, and again, I find in reading about the mystics (Islamic, Buddhist)
that they often (but with surprisingly regular exceptions) see themselves as
an elect, a priesthood, THE authority. In the case of Khomeini, his crowning
acheivement was completing the synthesis, begun over a hundred years ago, of
the argument that only the learned mullas had the correct understanding to
govern in the absence of the 12th Imam. (By the way, I agree with you about
the excellence of Professor Mottahedeh's book. Wouldn't you know it: only a
Baha'i could write a sympathetic, objective, and well-balanced book for a
western audience about the Iranian revolution!)
What I find in the European tradition, and also strongly evident in the
Baha'i Writings, is a much more universal approach: whether or not they are
mystics, philosophers, kings, or gas-station attendants, all have equal
access to the truth. The distinction between the mystical sciences and the
modern sciences is that the modern sciences can be understood by anyone who
studies them. Understanding of the mystical sciences is different: only
monks, ascetics, holy men, or family-free dervishes have access to the divine
light. Now, I will gladly admit that this modern view can be alienating: we
lose the sense of hidden mystery and magic that has been the aura of much of
religion in the past. Yet now -- finally -- the elect is all of mankind!
Professor Izutsu, in *Creation and the Tmeless Order of Things*, also
contrasts the European and older Islamic perspectives. Comparing Iranian
mystical philosophy and Heideggerian existentialism, he contrasts dry Iranian
rationalism with European passion and lyricism:
"Thus it comes about that Western existentialism formulates itself
through such characteristic key-terms as 'uneasiness,' 'anxiety,' 'care,'
'projection,' 'death,' 'freedom,' etc.. And its philosophizing, as is
exemplified by the works of the later Heidegger, naturally tends to end up by
becoming a lyrical expression of the human pathos in the very midst of
nonhuman, inhuman factual surroundings.
"Alongside of this type of philosophy, the existentialism of the
Iranian thinkers, clothed in the armour of an intricate system of abstract
concepts, might seem at first sight quite colorless, bleak, and chilly.
Instead of the note of passion and lyricism which is so characteristic of the
German and French existentialists, we see here an abstract and logical
thinking being calmly and and systematically developed in a rarified air of
reason and intellect, having nothing to do with the mundane problems of daily
life.
"Of course, Western existentialism is quite a recent phenomenon,
while the Iranian philosophy of wahdat al-wujud has behind itself a
centuries-old tradition. It is no wonder that Western existentialism lacks
that systematic conceptual perfection which characterizes Iranian philosophy.
And yet, precisely because of this crudeness and freshness, it discloses to
us nakedly the very nature of the original experience of existence, which
remains hidden under the surface of conceptual thinking in the metaphysical
system of a Sabzawari (Iranian thinker of the last century)."
Professor Izutsu concludes, and I agree:
"Oriental philosophy, on its part, does not seem to be able to
maintain its spiritual values in the face of the pressing problems that arise
from the actualities of our days. If it is to remain just as it has been in
the past, it will find itself powerless in the presence of our manifold
contemporary problems.
"It is my conviction that the time has come when we must begin making
efforts to revive the creative energy contained in this kind of philosophy
(i.e., Iranian existentialism) in such a way that its spirit might be
resuscitated in the form of a new philosophic worldview powerful enough and
alive enough to cope with the new problems peculiar to the new historical
epoch into which we have just entered."
Perhaps I can conclude with my own thoughts: Iranian and Islamic
philosophical and mystical traditions, while being of central importance to
an understanding of the background of the Faith, are not the same as the
Faith itself. They, are in fact, only one of the set of traditions that will
be part of the thread making up the new world order. We are, in fact, only
now starting to open the encyclopedia in which are contained all the world's
traditions. Let us drink from them all, using them as appropriate, always
judging them by the measure of Baha'u'llah's revelation.
Then the real fun begins, as any researcher worth his salt will tell you.
You start to draw from several different disciplines at once, and start to
combine them! Consider what our philosopher predecessors did with Greek
thought and Koranic inspiration!
Yours sincerely,
Stephen R. Friberg
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 01:03:51 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Packer schmacker
This indeed could be a serious problem . . . because it will be the STEELERS
DUDE!!!!
Jim (this has nothin' to do with testosterone!) Harrison
Alethinos@aol.com
=END=
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 10:28:54 -0500 (EST)
From: Stephen Johnson
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: KI pp. 26-28
Inasmuch as the Christian divines have failed
to apprehend the meaning of these words, and did
not recognize their object and purpose, and have
clung to the literal interpretation of the words of
Jesus, they therefore became deprived of the
streaming grace of the &Muhammadan Revelation
and its showering bounties. The ignorant among
the Christian community, following the example
of the leaders of their faith, were likewise prevented
from beholding the beauty of the King of
glory, inasmuch as those signs which were to accompany
the dawn of the sun of the &Muhammadan
Dispensation did not actually come to pass. Thus,
ages have passed and centuries rolled away, and
that most pure Spirit hath repaired unto the retreats
of its ancient sovereignty. Once more hath
the eternal Spirit breathed into the mystic trumpet,
and caused the dead to speed out of their sepulchres
of heedlessness and error unto the realm of
guidance and grace. And yet, that expectant community
still crieth out: When shall these things be?
When shall the promised One, the object of our
expectation, be made manifest, that we may arise
for the triumph of His Cause, that we may sacrifice
our substance for His sake, that we may offer
up our lives in His path? In like manner, have such
false imaginings caused other communities to stray
from the &Kawthar of the infinite mercy of Providence,
and to be busied with their own idle
thoughts.
Beside this passage, there is yet another verse
in the Gospel wherein He saith: "Heaven and
earth shall pass away: but My words shall not
pass away."+F1 Thus it is that the adherents of Jesus
maintained that the law of the Gospel shall never
be annulled, and that whensoever the promised
Beauty is made manifest and all the signs are revealed,
He must needs re-affirm and establish the
law proclaimed in the Gospel, so that there may
remain in the world no faith but His faith. This is
their fundamental belief. And their conviction is
such that were a person to be made manifest with
all the promised signs and to promulgate that
which is contrary to the letter of the law of the Gospel,
they must assuredly renounce him, refuse to
submit to his law, declare him an infidel, and laugh
him to scorn. This is proved by that which came
to pass when the sun of the &Muhammadan Revelation
was revealed. Had they sought with a humble
mind from the Manifestations of God in every
Dispensation the true meaning of these words revealed
in the sacred books--words the misapprehension
of which hath caused men to be deprived
of the recognition of the &Sadratu'l-Muntaha, the
ultimate Purpose--they surely would have been
guided to the light of the Sun of Truth, and would
have discovered the mysteries of divine knowledge
and wisdom.
+F1 Luke 21:33.
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 23:10:59 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Richard Vernon Hollinger
Cc: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: The `79 Revolution
> ....what
> would have been the result if such skirmishes had not taken place? In my
> view, the revolution would still have occured, this for several reasons:
> 1) the regime had lost any pretense of legitimacy and could rule only by
> force 2) the revolutionary movement was so popular that the army could
> not be effectively used to repress it--there were instances of soldiers
> being brought into to suppress a demonstration, who defected and joined
> the opposition; the elite units loyal to the Shah could not, by
> themselves, keep the Shah in power; 3) the government could not control
> the flow of information, and hence could not curtail the movement
> through censorship--the
> BBC, as is well-known to conspriacy theorists, announced in advance the
> times and places of demonstrations; the new media technologies could
> not be centrally controlled, so literature and audio tapes could be
> repoduced and distributed; 4) the strikes and massive demonstrations
> showed that Shah had lost the ability to govern.
Richard, had 1) the ten-year long *tit-for-tat* guerilla war of attrition
not occured, 2) the Carter administration not exerted pressure on the
Shah to loosen-up his grip, 3) the daily occurence of violent skirmishes
between authorities & revolutionaries from late-September to the
revolution's final culmination, 4) strikes, shut-downs, etc. and, most
crucial of all, 5) the Iranian upper bourgeoisie (both the traditional
bazzari & modern) not withdrawn their support of the Pahlavi system by
the latter half of 1978 because of 1-4, the revolution would have
*never* succeeded, regardless of how much legitimacy the regime had lost
in the eyes of the proletarian masses or how many pious people claimed to
see the imam Khomeini's image reflected upon the moon :-) The regime was
not much beloved in 1962-3 either, but the popular revolt was
nipped-in-the-bud before it got anywhere. Why? Because the regime's
primary ideological bulwark, *the middle class*, still supported the system.
This is why the military all of a sudden becomes impotent in the face of
a popular tidle-wave and the economy re-routes itself against the
Pahlavi system (this is a fascinating aspect of the revolution I
don't believe anyone's really investigated in much depth yet).
Having said that, there's a social psychological element to this whole
phenomenon. Why did the upper middle classes see fit to withdraw their
support? Well, when a formerly and *relatively* secure social
environment is transformed into a violent one literally overnight because
of these very same skirmishes, burnings of banks & government buildings,
increasingly more and more violent confrontations between the opposition &
the system, etc. -- events the regime waffles on taking effective steps
to curb --, the protected begins doubting and seriously questioning the
viability of its protector. Not only was this true for the bourgeoisie
but also another important estate in the Iranian political landscape, the
buearocracy (sp?). Once the Shah lost these two, the military followed and
the His Majesty was lost.
Events imprint themselves in the minds of people, and more so
violent ones. The action follows. And this is how the skirmishes effected
the ultimate outcome of the revolution. The full duration of the struggle
itself was long and protracted, however.
So, now that we've beaten the 1978-79 Iranian revolution to death, my next
question, and a controversial one no doubt, is 'was the Babi movement
revolutionary in the conventional sense, were the years from 1844-52 a
revolution in the conventional sense, and if so, was it an aborted
revolution'?
Regards,
Nima
=END=
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 11:19:21 +0000 (GMT)
From: Robert Parry
To: Alethinos@aol.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Packer schmacker
All you American Football fanatics! Haven`t you ever seen or heard how
the Welsh play Rugby Union? Now that`s an experience!!!
On Sat, 13 Jan 1996 Alethinos@aol.com wrote:
> This indeed could be a serious problem . . . because it will be the STEELERS
> DUDE!!!!
>
>
> Jim (this has nothin' to do with testosterone!) Harrison
>
> Alethinos@aol.com
>
=END=
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 11:03:08 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Traitorous translation
Doug Myers made the following observation in response to something I
wrote implying that the translation of the Aqdas was not adequate for
certain of my purposes:
Now, here comes the conundrum --- with a serious scholar saying: "I
would not extrapolate from "recite" to "recite out loud" without knowing
the underlying source for the Aqdas editors" what does that bode for
anyone anywhere reading a translation of any of Baha'u'llah's or
'Abdu'l-Baha's works who is trying to fully and deeply understand the
Holy Text?
The answer is that you cannot fully understand Baha'u'llah's writings
while reading them in English translation, nor can you fully understand
*God Passes By* (or Shakespeare) in Persian translation.
The reason is that a text of any sophistication draws on many aspects of
the language. In the case Doug cites, "recite" presumably rendered some
Arabic word that has technical uses in Islam. Baha'u'llah would not have
to explain that meaning because it is clear in Arabic. The translator
has a problem, however. He has to first decide whether the technical
nuances are important to an English reader. Often they are not, which is
why people who are interested in those nuances grumble about restrictions
on retranslating passages. Second, if the passage carries any rhetorical
weight--let us say thaat it is part of a passage urging the believers to
pray and meditate on the Word of God--the translator has decide between
preserving the literal meaning and the rhetorical content. A notorious
example is the Persian literary habit of making the seat of the emotions
the liver, a conceit that does not work very well in English: "My liver
burns in hopeless longing."
Let us try looking at it from the other side: Suppose that we were
translating George Bush, who loved to use baseball imagery, into some
other language. Consider two possible phrases that could have been used
in an extemporaneous talk: "It's not over till it's over" and "We hit it
out of the park". The first could probably be translated literally and
would still make some sense, although a translator might look around for
an appropriate proverb in the target language that would not sound too
strange coming from the mouth of an American. The second should probably
be replaced by a soccer ("football" for all you ferriners out there)
image. But if he then were to follow with a list of four resulting
successes--something that follow naturally from the baseball image but
not from its soccer/football replacement, our poor translator is sunk.
(This was, in fact, a real problem for reporters covering Bush during the
Gulf War: "Who is this 'fat lady'?" one reporter plaintively asked.)
Now, back to Baha'u'llah, as Juan would insist. If you translate high
literary texts coming from an old and complex tradition, there are a
*lot* of such problems. What you have to do is decide first who will
read your translations. Shoghi Effendi did his for English-speaking
readers without any specialized training in Islam culture. Therefore, he
stressed literary quality, replaced specifically Islamic metaphors with
ones accessible to English readers, added words to make the text more
understandable, and glossed over technical terms. He didn't annotate.
This was a perfectly reasonable strategy and produced translations that
admirably served the purposes for which they were intended. When Juan is
investigating Baha'u'llah's political thought or Nima his relation to
Sufism, such translations aren't much help, since they deliberately gloss
over just those things that Nima and Juan are most interested in. (All
this assumes that the translator even *knows* all the relevant
background, which he almost certainly does not.) This is an especially
difficult problem when the two languages come from different cultural
regions, as English and Arabic do. They simply are not likely to even
have words for the same concepts. (Nima, how ought we to translate "baqa"?)
In effect, the translator of a literary text is faced with the problem of
choosing what he must throw away in order not to interfere with the
reading of his expected readers. A good translator can somewhat reduce
the amount that he has to throw away--be more literal without reducing
the eloquence of the translation, for example--but no translator can
render the text perfectly. Baha'u'llah himself translated one of his own
works--the Hurufat-i-`Alin, "The Exalted Letters"--and observed that his
translation was not literal since that would not be in accordance with
good taste. In other words, even Baha'u'llah could not produce a
translation of something that he himself had written that was the equal
of the original in content, rhetoric, and concision.
To return to the starting point: Translations are certainly useful and
convey most of the original. They cannot substitute for the original
because no translator can translate for all possible readers. This is
especially true for Baha'i texts on the word-by-word level. For that
kind of analysis, you need to look at the original.
Which takes us back to reading the Aqdas. The decision of the
translators was to produce a version that was readable and easily
comprehensible to an informed Baha'i reader. Technical terms are legal
terms commonly known by educated speakers of English. Well-known
approximate terms are used rather than terms that exactly render
technical terms derived from Islam or less-known but more exact English
equivalents: "dowery," for example, would more exactly be rendered
"bride-wealth" or just transliterated as "mahr". Extensive notes are
used to deal with the resulting imprecisions. So, if you are dealing
with a technical term that is not explained in detail in a note (or is
not fully explained in the note), you need to be careful. More
generally, if you are asking a translation of the text that the
translators did not think to answer in the translation, you need the
original. Moreover, if the translators did not know something relevant,
as will inevitably happen, there is no way that the translator will help you.
John Walbridge
=END=
From: AHAMRAEI@aol.com
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 02:52:46 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Is Terry nuts ?
Dear Ahang, Terry and all,
In defense of Terry, I must say that he is nuts. But although he is nuts
and little weird at times (Katie used to say that, I really miss her Terry),
I
have come to love this man. I love you man. But he wants to make the walk so
all power to him. Go brother Terry.
Best wishes - Arman
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 23:36:03 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: Noorbakhsh.Monzavi@hibo.no, frlw@midway.uchicago.edu,
Masumian@MAIL.UTEXAS.EDU
Subject: Reuters 1/12/96 (fwd)
> 'IRAN' STORIES
>Transmission date: 96/01/12
> 1. 10:28 TURKEY TO SIGN GAS, PIPELINE DEAL WITH IRAN
> 2. 09:00 RAFSANJANI URGES U.S. TO REVIEW ITS IRAN POLICY
> 3. 06:18 IRAN'S VELAYATI SAYS U.S. SPLITS ASIA, URGES UNITY
>
>=START= XMT: 10:28 Fri Jan 12 EXP: 0 :00 Mon Jan 15
>
>
> Turkey to sign gas, pipeline deal with Iran
> By Ercan Ersoy
> ANKARA, Jan 12 (Reuter) - Turkey will sign an agreement with Iran at the
>weekend to buy two billion cubic metres of natural gas from late 1998 and to
>build a pipeline to carry it, energy ministry officials said on Friday.
> They said Energy Minister Sinasi Altiner would go to Tehran on Saturday
>with a delegation from the energy ministry and the state pipeline company Botas
>to sign the deal, which would also include the financing.
> Turkey and Iran agreed in principle in May 1995 on a 23-year deal under
>which Turkey will buy an estimated $20 billion worth of Iranian natural gas
>from late 1998.
> ``The principle deal will be sealed in Iran,'' an official, who declined to
>be named, told Reuters.
> The agreement envisages that Turkey, trying to lessen dependence on coal
>and oil for power, will get two billion cubic metres of natural gas from late
>1998, and the amount will be raised gradually to 10 billion cubic metres by the
>year 2002.
> A pipeline from the Iranian city of Tabriz to southern Turkey's Ceyhan
>port, where there is already a terminal for piped Iraqi crude unused since the
>1990 trade embargo on Baghdad, will be built as part of the deal, the official
>said.
> ``Pipeline building costs fall considerably when they are built by the
>existing ones,'' the official said, declining to comment on the cost of the
>pipeline.
> The original agreement suggested the pipeline be an extension to an
>envisaged natural gas link from Turkmenistan to Iran, but officials said
>uncertainties about the Turkmen deal force a separate Iranian link.
> ``The agreement will cover the building of a 190-km (120-mile) part on the
>Iranian territory and 1,200 km (750 miles) in Turkey along the existing Iraqi
>oil pipeline in the southeast,'' the official said.
> Turkey, whose current annual gas needs of eight billion cubic metres are
>expected to shoot up to 30 billion cubic metres by 2005 and 40 billion by 2010,
>buys six billion cubic metres a year from Russia.
> Botas officials said Turkey planned to import about nine billion cubic
>metres of natural gas this year.
> They said a recent agreement with Algeria had raised LNG imports of Botas
>to the equivalent to three billion cubic metres, effective from 1996, from two
>billion cubic metres.
> Botas will also get LNG equivalent to a total of up to 375 million cubic
>metres of gas from Australia's North West Shelf joint venture. It received the
>first cargo of 125 million cubic metres in September.
> Turkey will be tapping two billion cubic metres more of natural gas from
>Russia from 1997 and another additional 2.5 billion cubic metres from 1998.
> Nigeria would also be supplying LNG, equivalent to 900 million cubic metres
>of gas, under an agreement signed in November. If agreed by both sides, the
>Nigerian supply may come in from from 1998.
> Botas is close to agreeing with Qatar for the supply of LNG equivalent to
>two billion cubic metres of gas from 1999.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 09:00 Fri Jan 12 EXP: 9 :00 Mon Jan 15
>
>
> Rafsanjani urges U.S. to review its Iran policy
> TEHRAN, Jan 12 (Reuter) - Iranian President Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani on
>Friday called on the United States to review its policy towards Iran which he
>said only reflected U.S. ignorance about the country.
> ``They (United States) should repent, come back and learn about today's
>Iran...This is no attitude to have towards an essential and deep-rooted
>regional power,'' Rafsanjani, a Moslem cleric, said in a mass prayer sermon,
>broadcast on Tehran radio.
> ``America has always had to pay for its ignorance and misunderstanding of
>Iran's Islamic revolution,'' he told worshippers gathered at the Tehran
>University campus.
> ``The Americans' only alternative is to spend this $20 million...on
>learning about Iran and the Iranian people,'' he said, referring to moves in
>the U.S. Congress to allot that sum for a covert action plan against Iran.
> The crowd chanted ``Death to America'' at the mention of the plan, against
>which several demonstrations have been held in Iran in the past few weeks.
> Covert action would not hurt Iran, a country that has experienced war and
>terrorist attacks, Rafsanjani said.
> Having failed to stop the 1979 Islamic revolution despite its full control
>over Iran, the United States would certainly not succeed now that the Iranian
>government is well established, he added.
> The United States has been increasing its pressure against Iran since
>imposing a trade and investment ban against it in June.
> ``The Americans have these habits themselves so they blame it on us
>too...but it won't stick,'' Rafsanjani said about U.S. charges that Iran is
>seeking to develop nuclear and chemicals arms, supports terrorism and violates
>human rights.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 06:18 Fri Jan 12 EXP: 6 :00 Mon Jan 15
>
>
> Iran's Velayati says U.S. splits Asia, urges unity
> By Clarence Fernandez
> BOMBAY, Jan 12 (Reuter) - Iranian Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Velayati
>accused the United States on Friday of keeping Asia divided and said Asian
>countries should rally together on the economic front and bury their quarrels.
> Closer economic cooperation could help draw the continent together, solve
>old disputes and dampen new tensions, Velayati said at the start of a three-day
>visit to India.
> ``Economic cooperation and partnership will reduce tensions and...give rise
>to persistent stability and tranquility,'' he told the Confederation of Indian
>Industry in Bombay.
> He accused the U.S. of trying to keep Asian divided. ``This is the policy
>of the U.S. to make difficulties for the countries in this region...They have
>tried to deepen the differences and rift between countries,'' he said.
> He condemned recent moves by the U.S. Congress to allocate up to $20
>million for covert action against Iran, which he said infringed international
>law, and he vowed to defeat them.
> ``What the Americans are trying to do is against international law,''
>Velayati told reporters.
> ``This policy will fail and be totally defeated,'' he said.
> India's relations with Pakistan, troubled by arms sales by the U.S. and
>always prickly because of the two nations' dispute over Kashmir, could be
>helped by economic cooperation, he said.
> ``We have always been against any kind of militarisation of this sensitive
>region,'' Velayati said.
> ``If we want to strengthen peaceful relations between India and Pakistan,
>apart from solving the traditional difficulties, we must help develop the
>positive points,'' Velayati said.
> He said he expected a gas pipeline being planned from southern Iran via
>Pakistan to India would help bring smoother relations between India and
>Pakistan.
> He hoped the two would peacefully solve their differences in the near
>future, not only as part of the South Asian Association for Regional
>Cooperation, but within a larger regional grouping.
> ``If they have economic cooperation, certainly the future of relations
>between these two countries will be more promising.''
> Regional economic groupings were a key feature of the post-Cold War era,
>Velayati said, noting that Iran had initiated two projects for multilateral
>cooperation in its own region.
> ``One of these has been the expansion of the Economic Cooperation
>Organisation -- formerly consisting of Iran, Pakistan and Turkey -- to include
>all central Asian countries.''
> A second initiative was the formation of the Caspian Sea Organisation,
>Velayati said.
> He said he would meet Indian Prime Minister P.V. Narasimha Rao and Foreign
>Minister Pranab Mukherjee in New Delhi on Saturday to discuss strengthening
>economic cooperation.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>
=END=
From: "Here a moo, there a moo, everywhere a moomoo"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 02:20:47 PST8PDT
Subject: Onan, the barbarian?/ Re: Great Expectations
SILLY!
>
> *******************************************************
> Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
> *******************************************************
>
Hey! Thought that as long as I'm sitting here in the office
listening to the tape backups humming away into the night
(we are upgrading our network server's memory and disk
subsystems over the weekend), I would repost an exceedingly
important item that brother burl has not seen fit to respond
to (for some reason):
>
>ps, BTW burl, is eastern washington architecture
>those funky geodesic domes with little springy head
>bobbing thingamagiggers like some long haul truckers
>have (but of buckminster fuller) in each leaky
>triangular window for earthquake prediction? Just
>wondering!
>
Will be attending a MLK event organized by the Baha'i gentleman
(y esposa [and his wife]) from Kirman in good old conservative
Vacaville, California tomorrow (saturday). The mayor and some
other local dignataries are supposed to show up. Since
"vaca-ville" would roughly translate from spanish to english as
"cow-town" (really), I was thinking of wearing one of those
full body halloween costumes that make you look like a dairy
cow (Wisconsin!), including the milking appendages. The
gentleman from Kirman says that there is an untranslated tablet
that specifically rules out wearing cow costumes to Baha'i
events, and that if I don't believe it, he'll have one of the
grizzled persian friends that survived in pakistani refugee camps
for a couple of years wait to run me off the road out on I-80
if I try to get there with the costume on.
On yet another matter, addendum to the "facism" debate of last week:
Has anyone logged into the "aryan nation" web page? I heard part
of an interesting NPR (national public radio) interview with a guy
that wrote a book called "the american militia movement and the
politics of hate".
EP
(PierceED@csus.edu)
Go CHEESEHEADS!
******************************************************************
> Date sent: Fri, 12 Jan 96 19:57 PST
> To: talisman@indiana.edu
> From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
> Subject: Great Expectations
...
> replied, "its a page from an owners manual for an Onan Gasoline Engine.
> Looks impressive, doesn't it?"
>
> Many are the lessons for those who ponder.
>
> Burl
>
>
> *******************************************************
> Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
> *******************************************************
>
=END=
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 01:56:33 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu, "Rick Schaut"
From: nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
Subject: RE: Teaching: What it is and is not/chasing our tails
Dear Rick and all Talimanians,
Forgive me for being the bearer of sad news, but Woodburn isn't what it use
to be. They have fallen on hard times, like so many of our projects. I
won't go into the details but below is a letter I wrote to the editor of the
"American Baha'i" concerning Woodburn. The Woodburn Baha'i Institute/Center
is barely functioning and needs assistance!
Oddly enough, since I wrote the letter to the editor, not only have they not
published it but they have not publiched *any* letter to the editor. I was
speaking to Richard Hutchins, who lives at and coordinates the Institute. I
saw a bleaker picture than what I wrote in the letter to the editor --- I
didn't want to appear to be negative as I wanted them to print it --- but
the truth is there is a lot of good work that hangs in the ballance. If
anyone knows *anyone* who is Spanish/English speaking and can move for the
Faith, For God's sake, and the Woodburn Institute's, have them get in touch
with Richard.
Doug Myers
nightbrd@humboldt1.com
"Nothing survives but the way we live our lives." JB
On January 12 Rick Schaut wrote:
> When was the
>last time you saw a teaching plan that combined the direct
>teaching of full-time teaching teams with the indirect teaching
>of social or economic development projects? (Actually, I can
>think of a few instances where these elements have been
>combined, and the projects have been absolutely resounding
>successes. The Woodburn project comes to mind.)
>
>Warmest Regards,
>Rick
24 October 95
=20
The Editor
The American Bah=E1'=ED
415 Linden Avenue
Wilmette, Illinois 60091
Dear Editor,
On a recent trip, through a series of serendipitous events, or the will
of Bah=E1'u'll=E1h, depending on who you talk to, I found myself in=
Corvallis,
Oregon. Reading the then current issue of the American Baha'i, 'Issat B.E.
152, September 8, 1995, I came across an article on the Woodburn Institute.
The article referred to a person named Richard Hutchins. Nine years
ago, when I was not a Bah=E1'=ED, I knew and worked with a Richard Hutchins=
in
Denver. As it turned
out Woodburn was less an hour from Corvallis. I had to go and see if this
Richard was
my Richard. It was!
After profuse greetings and reminiscences we spent two and a half days
in discussion and working around the Institute. This also included a picnic
in Wood
Village, a suburb of Portland, with the community there, and in a park
frequented by
Hispanic people.
Things at the Institute have changed and evolved over time. They no
longer serve meals as that had become a dependency situation. In the four
years of the Institute they have enrolled over 200 Bah=E1'=EDs, most of=
which
have moved on as they are migrant workers. There was also an Assembly
raised in Woodburn. The responsibility for the Institute has now been
turned over to the Woodburn Assembly.
From what I saw there is a real need for Spanish/English speaking
individuals,
perhaps some whom would give a year of service. This is the opportunity for
committed Bah=E1'=EDs to serve their Faith.
The Woodburn Bah=E1'=ED Institute has laid a solid foundation and=
countless
seeds
have been sown in the fertile soil of the hearts of the people of Woodburn
and the area.=20
What is now needed is an outpouring of fresh, committed, bi-lingual, Baha'is
to reap the harvest.
There is also a challenging opportunity for a family that speaks, and
is, Ukrainian/Russian. There are many in Woodburn and the area.
A person could live in Woodburn and possibly work there, or work in
Portland,
30 miles to the north, or work in Salem, 15 miles to the south.
If you are bi-lingual in Spanish and English and want to serve
Bah=E1'u'll=E1h, this is the time and Woodburn is the place. Pick up the=
phone
and call Richard Hutchins at =20
(503) - 981 - 3516, now!
You have nothing to lose except your complacency and everything to gain
for your soul and the Faith!
Doug Myers
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 96 16:38 PST
To: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: sociobiology
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
What about PMS, sugar
>allergies, alchoholism among Native Americans, and the testosterone effect?
>
>Yeah, that was one hell of a party. The women accused us of all being
insensitive, the kids ran around in circles, the drumming was on the 1&3,
and men were out in the parking lot showing off the big tires on their
4X4's. Just a typical Friday night in Walla Walla.
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 96 11:36:58 PST
Subject: Re: Manifestation and Prophets of God
To: Juan R Cole
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
On Fri, 12 Jan 1996 10:19:05 -0500 (EST) Juan R Cole wrote:
>
>
>This discussion, I fear, rests on several misapprehensions.
>
>
>2) The word "manifestation of God" (mazhar-i ilahi) was not used in
>Arabic and Persian Shi`ite theology, nor in Babi-Baha'i scriptures,
to
>refer solely to the Prophets Endowed With Constancy or the Revealers
of a
>divinely inspired Book. The phrase was considered apposite of *all*
holy
>figures. Thus, Imams are routinely referred to as Manifestations of
>God. The narrowing of the term to mean High Prophets is a
phenomenon of
>the Western Baha'i community.
This is monumental news to me. Is this authoritative?
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/12/96
Time: 11:36:59
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 16:56:00 -0800
From: derekmc@IX.NETCOM.COM (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: RE, Cricket and other games , or the Game of the Future World .
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismanians and sport fans .
As the matter of Cricket has come up with Football
USA style . I wish to point out to all on Talisman
that Cricket will be the Game for the Future Baha'i
World . This of course is part of a soon to be
translated and then revealed tablet . I have often
explained the inner virtues of bowling a maiden over
, a googly , an off-break , fielding in the slips , a no-
ball and silly mid-off to totally amazed students
never mind a four through the covers . At Bosch in
1991 I am happy to report we actually played several
games . Alas certain of my fellow believers thought it
was some game called Baseball and kept holding the
bat wrong . I did point out that Baseball looks rather
like an English girls game called rounders . This
seemed to drive grown men into fits of infantile rage
and many started chewing tobacco , spitting and
making dark threats against me. I am sure such an
educated forum like Talisman will naturally not
indulge in such behavior . My only thoughts on the
cricket games mentioned is that Australia gets well
and truly beaten . Of course being English has
nothing to do with such hopes .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut .
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 19:34:27 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: inactive Bahai's
Dear Lori ,
I suspect the Bahai communities will be a little different . One of the
reasons people struggle with an outward identity as a Bahai is the lack of a
Bahai culture or what the Guardian would decribe as an "environment " ; that
and we lack the "plausability " structures to make an outward inentification
with the Faith meaningful for many people. Being basically an introvert
myself I am not much of a street teacher but I still teach, in public .
Active I think can imply public as opposed to purely private activity . It
is just that when we define active in heavilly administrative and expressive
terms we restrict the scope of what "publically"active can mean. In any real
community there area myriad of activities to be undertaken that constitute
teaching and living the life and I would hope they would be public in that
they would occur in the context of a community that is public. We have been
so long in the equivalent of the catacombs that i think we miss the
possibilities of what active would even mean ..
Not being a morning person I consider it a great mercy that Bahau lah has
defined dawn as from the earliest light of morning until two hours after
sunrise . It probably will not be as big a test as you think . Why in my part
of the U. S. at this time of year 10 a.m. meets the requirement. :)
warm regards ,
Terry
=END=
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 1996 18:31:44 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: abandoning his tact/ Re: Iranian bashing
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Talisman"
>Well, it certainly may have lacked delicacy.
Perhaps so because I was using a conversational voice instead of a
scholarly one.
I must admit that I was completely taken aback by the response to a
message that was intended to be a mediating defense of Ahang who I
greatly admire. I reasoned perhaps this subject could be approached from
a less academic angle and lessen the tensions that had developed over it.
It looks like I hit a nerve instead. What a pathetic physician I make!
Please do not account me with those who would to the extent of the "pupil
in the eye of a dead ant" lessen the accomplisments and sagaciousnes of
our Iranian co-religionists.
I feel like I've become like Jesse Jackson saying Hymie town about New
York. Perhaps I should be beheaded.
A thousand apologies
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: jrcole@umich.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: sociobiology
Date: 12 Jan 1996 17:44:29 GMT
Juan -
I find your reaction as troubling as the fractured logic of the people whose
views gave rise to it.
Are we, then, to consider the study of the corelation of any biological trait
with a social phenomenon an improper area of study? What about PMS, sugar
allergies, alchoholism among Native Americans, and the testosterone effect?
The problem as I see is not the area of study but the unscientific and
illogical philosophies of a few researchers in the field. Unfortunately, Dr.
Goulds opposition to the field has been at times as intemperate as those he
opposes, with the result that researchers have to be very, very careful in
their requests for funding not to suggest that biology has *any* effect on
behavior, an attitude that has led some to say that to imply that hormonal
differences between men and women cause differences in behavior is proof of a
sexist attitude.
I believe you allude to the true problem - a materialistic view of life
leading to biological determinism coupled with a simplistic, sound-bite
awareness of anything to be learned beyond 8th grade and a denial of the
other spiritual principles promoted in the Writngs. I believe that as
Baha'is, and particularly Baha'is with academic interests, we need to combat
these ideas whereever they are found, and be wary of involving ourselves with
the ongoing arguments surrounding specific expressions of them; to be
involved in raising up a new world order while allowing the old order, being
'lamentably defective', to self-destruct.
To do otherwise lends credence to the very philosophy that we oppose - that
the physical world is more important than the spiritual world.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 96 16:54:15 PST
Subject: Re: Humility and Forgiveness
To: belove@sover.net, talisman@indiana.edu, alma@indirect.com,
748-9178@mcimail.com
On Fri, 12 Jan 1996 13:46:43 -0700 alma@indirect.com wrote:
>Hello again Philip. And thanks for your thoughtful reply -- a reply which
>addresses my too terse message and draws the wrong conclusions to answer.
>Reminds me of what has been stated here so often regarding questions to the
>UHJ. Be careful how you ask for the answer will be to what you ask and not
>what you intend.
>
>So let me try to develop a bit what I intended. Acceptance as I use the
>term is not the grim grit-your-teeth-and-ignore-it you describe. That
never
>works for whatever is being ignored comes back, in my experience, with a
>vengeance -- much more powerful than before.
>
Okay. Thanks. We're in agreement then.
>My concept of acceptance actually starts in my pre-Baha'i days. I am one
of
>those who turned to alcohol as a means of coping -- to make the kind of
>acceptance you describe bearable, to defuse my anger. When I was finally
>able to leave this crutch behind me, I needed a new method of coping.
>Situations that were unfair, people I disagreed with strongly, did not go
>away. If anything they were more grating than ever. So gradually I
>developed a new method of handling these situations. I tend to be very
>judgemental by nature and I knew that led nowhere. My anger whether
>justified or not only led to my own hurt -- sort of like scratching the
scab
>off of a healing sore.
>Forgiveness didn't seem to work for I was still the wounded one.
>
This last sentence expresses a mystery. One that I've shared with you.
>So I took a new path and started using one of the suggestions of
>twelvth-step groups. To pray for the offending party. And I quickly
>discovered that a "God bless x, God damn it" wasn't a very effective
prayer.
>To pray in a more positive manner, I needed a more positive image of the
>other person - situation. And I started to consciously develop that. What
>would cause that person to act that way? When I found a sufficient reason
I
>could pray for the person in a positive way.
This seems to be the key piece for me as well, but a puzzling one. Talk
about making a judgment about someone. And yet, maybe, this is the key. I
have to decide that, in some way I don't understand, this person has reached
the limit of his or her capacity to be a reasonable person.
I suppose that is to be prefered to attributing their behavior to malice.
There are psycho-analytic connections to be made here. A small child cannot
make these decisions about the limitations of his/her parent(s), and will,
in the face of parental cruelty, create reasons and justifications for that
behavior. The child will preserve the fantasy of the totally good and
loving parent. When the parent fails to do deliver, the child will imagine
either s/he is deficient and doesn't deserve the perfect love, or will hate
the parent for withhold what s/he is perfectly capaable of delivering.
I think that as an adult, I (we all) get caught in these kinds of emotional
calculations and then it is hard to let the matter go.
So clearly some part of the process of forgiveness involves de-idealizing
the offending party.
And I imagine there is a subtle relationship between the "sin-covering eye"
and the de-idealizing process.
> And lo and behold, my anger
>went away. I could accept this person just as s/he was, or as I perceived
>the person, in a loving manner. By the time I was doing this fairly
>regularly I had heard of the Baha'i Faith and declared. So I don't know
how
>much to attribute to Baha'i teachings.
>
>I am behind on my Talisman email reading and so have not read some later
>emails about forgiveness. But I did read the next one by you to Bev in
>which you say, in part:
>
>>I have choices about my attitude toward the one's who've wronged me.
>>I can be angry at him/her for not being more considerate. I can avoid
>>him/her to avoid being angry. Or I can accept his/her limitations and
>>love him/her for what there is to love, with full mindfullness of
>>their limitations.
>>
>This is very like my process. Except that I would change 'their
>limitations' to 'their assumed limitations' for I may not understand the
>other person well enough to arrive at their real limitations. Doesn't
>matter, really. For I do have a focus that works. The main difference,
>from my point of view is that you assume the right to judge and I do not.
>Judging places me in a 'superior' position which on one level all to often
>leads to anger which is deadly for me and on another level places me in the
>position of assuming something I think belongs to God.
>
I guess I do hold out for some right to judge. Perhaps this has to do with
my "recovery." Yes, anger is deadly for me as well, but, what has been even
more deadly is a tendency I have to accept abuse and mistake it for
something else.
For me, an important realization is that, if I feel like I am being treated
badly, often, it is because I am. And I relate this to the Bahai scripture,
"by its aid you shall know with your own knowing and through that of
another. "
>I said in my original post that this works most of the time. Strangely
>enough it works least well on both the most trivial situations and the most
>grave. Still have an initial judgemental, angry response to those who
drive
>differently than I do on the freeway and it takes conscious work on my part
>to overcome it in THIS situation. Took me a long time to accept the person
>who reported me to the Administrative Order for alleged infirmenss in the
>Covenant. And I am not sure how it would work if Hitler's actions were
>affecting me. But then I wonder how your forgiveness path would work there
>too.
>
>Hope this makes things clearer. And, no, I was not offended by your
>rejection of my original thoughts. Without that, I would assumed that what
>I said was nearly as clear as the noon sun when it wasn't at all.
>
>In peace and with Baha'i love,
>Alma
Thanks so much Alma. This second round really helps.
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/12/96
Time: 16:54:16
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A. Einstein
=END=
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 07:21:10 -0600
From: "Mark A. Foster"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: New Baha'i Studies List (one more time)
Talismanians -
Here is an initial draft of the purposes, objectives, and rules of the
new Baha'i Studies list. I promise that, after this one time, I will
stop posting messages about the list (at least for a while )! I
continue to learn a great deal from Talisman, and I have incorporated
some of that in the following:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Baha'i Studies List Information
Subscriptions/Unsubscriptions:
To subscribe (or unsubscribe), send the following command -
subscribe (or substitute unsubscribe) bahai-st
end
To -
major@johnco.cc.ks.us
These commands will *not* work if sent to the distribution address
(bahai-st@johnco.cc.ks.us).
Posting Messages:
To post a message to the Baha'i Studies list, send it to -
bahai-st@johnco.cc.ks.us
List Purposes:
The fundamental purpose of the Baha'i Studies list is the
consultative investigation of truth/reality, using the Baha'i Teachings
as its spiritual foundation. This list is a professional research
activity of its owner, Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., who is on the sociology
faculty of Johnson County Community College. We are using the computer
resources of that college.
List Objectives:
1. To act as a forum where people of diverse backgrounds can
contribute to the knowledge base of our virtual moral community. The
Baha'i metaphysic of unity in diversity, as viewed by the list owner,
teaches us how truth results from implementing the spiritual technology
of Baha'i consultation.
2. To become, potentially, an online institute, a "think tank" (an
information resource center) for the Baha'i community, and a spiritual
colloquium - a place where, hopefully, we can cooperatively search for
answers to specific questions and where the Baha'i Teachings can be
applied to concrete situations.
3. To have ongoing threads (continuous email discussions) on a
variety of topics related to Baha'i studies, deepening, and Baha'i
scholarship. The term "Baha'i scholarship" is used in a general sense to
include the scholarly activities of, potentially, all Baha'is and not
*only* academic Baha'i scholarship (i.e., the academic application of
the Baha'i Teachings to the sciences - physical, biological, behavioral,
and social, the humanities, etc.).
List Rules:
1. To practice the principle of Baha'i consultation. Arguing, in a
negative way, is strongly discouraged. (Although, arguing, in the sense
of presenting reasoned arguments, is desirable.) Postings should focus
on issues and topics - not on personalities. No flaming (attacking
others), gossip, backbiting, slander, or libel is allowed. And
name-calling (conservative, liberal, fundamentalist, etc.) in any form
is not permitted. We need to remind ourselves that it is through the
clash of differing opinons, not of conflicting personalities, that we
discover truth.
2. Not to criticize the institutions of the Baha'i Faith or their
policies. This is not a "griping" list. Postings should be positive.
3. Not to question the infallibility of the Central Figures of the
Baha'i Faith, the Guardianship, or the Universal House of Justice.
Certainly, *reverent* attempts to understand the nature of infallibility
are permitted.
4. To avoid *extensive* quoting of someone else's message. Please
quote only as much as is reasonably necessary to respond to what someone
has written.
5. To keep messages to the point. Chatty messages, small talk,
simple "thank you" or "I agree" postings without additional substance,
etc. are contrary to the objectives of the list.
6. The list is open and unmoderated. However, all posters (Baha'is,
members of other faiths, or those of no particular faith) are expected
to abide by these rules and to agree to the list objectives.
Mark A. Foster, Ph.D., List Owner
mfoster@johnco.cc.ks.us
=END=
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 13:04:43 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: PBS
Although the Right's fight against Public Television has been
framed as a populist struggle against elitism, in fact many rural folks
have little other access to television, because they are in markets not
considered commercially profitable. And there is *no* decent children's
programming on commercial television, because its purpose is to make
little consumers and customers out of its audience. Bill Nye the Science
Guy, Carmen Sandiego, and Sesame Street could not survive in a commercial
environment in their current form. They would be transformed into
vehicles for selling toys (which is all "Power Rangers" etc. are). There
is a place for the public sector in television. In fact, the airwaves
are publicly owned, and are only licensed by the FCC to private
broadcasters (who *pay nothing* for this privilege, and who give
*nothing* back to the public except an opportunity to buy the products of
corporate sponsors, whos interests determine what can be seen on
television. Any mention of the poor, of workers' struggles, of social
justice, is carefully excluded from scripts.)
So, the real agenda here is an attempt by the Right to secure a
*monopoly* over public broadcasting for the private corporations, by
abolishing the public sector.
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 17:33:56 -0800
From: derekmc@IX.NETCOM.COM (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: The Three Manifestatoions.
To: talisman@indiana.edu
The three Manifestations thread seems to be taking a
life of its own .
Ahang asked for the English reference of
Baha'u'llah's warning to the people of Iran . It is
quoted by Shoghi Effendi in the letter ' The
Dispensation of Baha'u'llah ' you will find it in the
first section on Baha'u'llah . In World Order of
Baha'u'llah p108 1955 edition . It reads as follows :
' Give heed to my warning , ye people of Persia . If I
be slain at your hands , god will assuredly raise up
one who will fill the seat made vacant through my
death ; for such is God's method carried into effect
of old , and no change can ye find in God's mode of
dealing '
As far as the station of Quddus is concerned .
Baha'u'llah states in the Tablet of Kullu't-Ta'am he
was the ' Nuqtiy-i-Ukhra < The Last Point > . In
another tablet He gave him the station of second only
to the Herald of the Revelation . The Bab called him
Ismu'llahi'l-Akhir < The Last Name of God > .
Abdu'l-Baha designated him as the ',Moon of
Guidance '. He was one of the Two Witnesses
mentioned in the Revelation of St John ; the second
woe and as stated by Baha'u'llah suffered a worse
death than even Jesus Christ .
The Third Manifestation comes from a different
concept , if Baha'u'llah had been martyred then
another would have filled his place . Number 77 in
the Persian Hidden Words is the origin of the third
Letter . without a doubt that reflects on the next
Manifestation of God now .
As far as the Station of Jesus Christ is concerned .
According to the Bab and Muhammad , Christ came
with a Way and a Book . I believe also Baha'u'llah
confirms that too . It should not be taken as a literal
document but rather the type and purpose of the
Religion .
The Dawnbreakers was not reviewed and approved
by Baha'u'llah . According to Nabil the blessed
Beauty perused the first two chapters and nothing
else . Then gave His approval to the barely started
project .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 13:47:11 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Fwd: "Sex-Positive" Christian Theology
I received the following from a Baha'i friend of mine--not (yet) a member of
Talisman. I am sure he will appreciate the thoughts of those on this list.
Warmest,
Tony
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: 73043.1540@compuserve.com (John Dale)
To: kdale@sas.upenn.edu (Kendra Dale)
CC: 76711.3632@compuserve.com (Suzanne Carter), dalej@kenyon.edu (John Henry
Dale), member1700@aol.com (Tony Lee), snandy@ids2.idsonline.com (Samir Nandy)
Date: 96-01-14 23:50:27 EST
Dear Kendra, John Henry, Suzanne, Tony, Samir, and any Others,
I have just received some interesting materials from a "sex positive"
Christian group in Phoenix, AZ which I feel are worth reading and discussing
in
terms of their theology-based critique of and challenge to the ordinary
Christian/Western views about premarital chastity, monogamy, etc. I am
trying
to forward these to you electronically in the hopes that we can create a kind
of
Internet round-table of participative discussion and learning. Any comments
and
responses any of you have would be most welcome.
The attached materials are simply brief summaries, and I will be getting
more detailed materials from the Liberated Christians through "snailmail".
******************
NOTES: _Assumptions and Questions_. The materials received so far seem
to make several assumptions and raise a number of questions:
(1) The Liberated Christians seem to believe that Biblical
scripture should be read as giving authoritative guidance to sexual behavior
--
at least for the time, circumstances, and culture in which it was revealed.
On
the other hand, they seem to believe that "naturally, things change," and now
the old norms may not meet current conditions or "needs". But if the Bible
_defines_, in a strong sense, the one and only God-willed society, how does
that
society and its norms and culture legitimately "change" unless God
Himself/Herself indicates approval? Moreover, how do Biblical norms relate to
the fact that cross-cultural comparisons of the variety of
spirituality/sexuality linkages in human society show that the Bible reveals
a
only very limited amount of guidance on this topic, and no technical
discussion?
The cultures and spiritual traditions of Tantra in India and Taoism in China,
for example, provide a whole corpus of concepts and anatomical detail.
Modern
medicine and genetic engineering possibilities open up many other whole
classes
of ethical questions about which the Bible gives no direct guidance
whatsoever.
While the group's materials seem favorable to Tantra and Taoism, and by
implication, modern developments, the theology behind this favorable
consideration is not clear.
(2) To the extent the Liberated Christians believe that scripture
does give authoritative and definitive guidance "for its own time," however
this
is defined, in any case they examine only Biblical scriptures and do not
raise
the issue of the existence and possible relevance of post-Biblical
revelations,
such as Islam or the Baha'i writings. We simply jump straight forward, in
these
materials, from 2000 years ago to the present as if God's attention had never
returned to Earth and updated its previous guidance in the interim.
(3) The group seems to base its "sex-positive" Biblical
foundations for polyamorous and other non-monogamous lifestyles on
(a) alleged mistranslations of certain Biblical terms;
(b) Jewish laws and customs which gave certain
non-monogamous rights (or duties) to males (e.g., the privilege of having
concubines for breeding purposes, the duty of a man's so-called levirite
marriage to his deceased brother's wife to keep the deceased's family line
intact);
(c) the general tendency of Jesus to be warm-hearted and
"forgiving" towards people in certain sexual professions;
(d) an unexamined but typical Christian viewpoint that
Jesus abrogated all the laws of the Old Testament for Jews and replaced them,
for _all_ His followers (both Jews and non-Jews), with a "law of love"; and
(e) the view again that, in any case, the Old or New
Testament laws relating to marriage and sexual activity were geared by God
for
certain historical and economic circumstances which are culturally no longer
completely relevant to or binding on "modern" situations in which women are
no
longer "property" but (try at least to) enjoy an equal dignity.
Notice again that comparing assumption (1) with assumption (3)(e) seems
to lead to a conclusion that "God has not spoken authoritatively" in a
culturally updated context for at least 2,000 years and that Catholic
policies
and ennuciations about sex and marriage do not (except possibly accidentally)
represent God's will on the subject. No explanation is given for this
"silence"
on the part of the Deity, and it is aberrant in light of the constant "riding
herd" on the Jewish people that the Bible pictures the Deity as performing
prior
to Christ. Given this "silence," the group seems to think, we must therefore
consider ourselves free to go ahead and reason out the sexual behavior and
ethics situation for ourselves.
Clearly this conclusion runs contrary to Islamic notions about its own
theological role in history as God's "final" revelation and also to Baha'i
teachings about "progressive revelation", in which all periods of history are
part of a terrestrial and eventually cosmic spiritualization history and in
which all recent periods are in fact covered by specific Covenant/Revelation
frameworks, which are renewed approximately every 500 to 1000 years and which
were in fact indicated prophetically in previous scriptures, so that in the
Baha'i view, humanity, or at least those who mediate religious teachings to
humanity, are accountably "on notice" from scripture and by reason itself
that
the God-humanity relationship is inherently one of progressive approximation
of
humanity toward more evolved qualities (towards "promised lands", better
states
of existence) and that the Deity does not just "disappear" for long periods
or
give "final" revelations.
_Scripture and Sexual Norms_. Based on the Biblical example, even under
the strictest of assumptions about our duty to obey scriptural authority and
guidance, it is clear that the Liberated Christians are right in that
monogamy
in marriage and "no sex outside of marriage" are not absolute scriptural
norms
for all people under all historical circumstances. Even in the Baha'i Faith,
which upholds a norm of pre-marital chastity, the rule of monogamy is not
absolute, and a man may keep a second wife in situations where he converts to
the Faith from a tradition which allowed polygamous marriages (if the civil
laws
of the country also permit this to occur). Presumably this would apply, pari
pasu, for women from polyandrous culures. However, polymate marriages cannot
be
initiated legally from within the Faith.
Gone is the need for societies to permit concubines in order to quickly
replenish numbers or to produce standing armies for community defense --
quite
the opposite, we now have a need for restraint on population growth.
Moreoever,
the Baha'i Faith is adamant about the fact that women have a central role in
bringing greater balance and dignity to society and in changing the "fuel
mixture" of the engine of society from one of predominantly "power over" to
one
of "attraction toward". (Baha'u'llah tells us, very significantly, "Obey My
laws for the love of My beauty", although He also speaks strongly about the
wisdom of fearing God and not letting one's selfish ideas stand in the way of
obedience.) Thus, at least in terms of approximation to Baha'i ideals,
future
society in relation to marriage will consist of dyadic heterosexual unions of
spiritual and educational equals -- no great surprise.
There is no indication in the Baha'i teachings that non-monogamous
lifestyles are the emerging positive norms of the future. But there is also
no
absolute statement that they _aren't_. There is nothing per se irrational
about
the possibility. Who knows what the next Manifestation will say? Question:
what would a future Baha'i society do about non-Baha'i people who wanted
non-monogamous relationships? Would a Baha'i society in control of a
legislature outlaw "deviations" of this kind, or tolerate them in the spirit
of
humility and loving kindness as long as no "overt harm" was being caused by
them? I hope the latter, but I'd like to know a solid answer before going
ahead
and working for a supposed ideal only to find that the real ideal doesn't
turn
out to match my own conscience.
Also, I've always had questions about the rightness of turning rules that
may make sense in overall social statistical terms (like dyadic monogamy)
into
norms that must "in God's own view" apply rigidly to every single individual.
Can't we envision a God whose overall moral shepherding of humanity does not
require absolute sexual and lifestyle uniformity but makes room for a
creative
diversity of lifestyles which stimulate and challenge people to really
examine
themselves and _thus become more than just sheep_? Again, we have no answer
to
this question from God Himself/Herself. Perhaps there is some reason for
this
silence from a game theoretical perspective. (See, for example, the work of
Stephen J. Brahms on the "revelation game" in his book "Superior Beings: If
They
Exist, How Would We Know?.)
The problem with using revelation as a basis for deciding individual
sexual norms is that, given the limited materials that God has chosen to
impart
to us, many basic questions remain unclear, and there is simply no rational
discussion of many basic issues, including how earnestly, in the overiding
interests of society, a norm must be enforced against those who do not
subscribe
to it, or how much effort do we individuals really need to spend resisting
our
own non-normative sexual urges and why, or how much love and sexual
satisfaction
is too much? In revelation, God speaks and then "departs", in a sense (under
either Christian or Baha'i accounts) for a shorter or longer period until the
next Manifestation is sent, and nobody can ask intelligent questions in the
meantime and get the kind of detailed discussions that would really be
interesting. Abdul-Baha taught that "religion is the science of the love of
God," but if so, then what is the role of social experimentation such as
polyamorous lifestyles in deciding moral questions that are not answered in
the
Scriptures? The Baha'i teaching of the harmony of science and religion has
not
yet been elaborated in a way radical enough to _encourage_ limited
experimentation of this kind to see in fact what results from polyfidelitous
child-rearing, for example, but there is also no way for Baha'is to overcome
the
gap in the "authoritative interpretation" of the Baha'i Scriptures that was
created at the death of Shoghi Effendi by his being unable to appoint a
successor Guardian. Arguably the arising of completely new moral issues
based
on things such as genetic engineering, nanotechnology, and information
sciences
may force the Baha'i Universal House of Justice eventually to legislate on
these
issues, but on what (rational) basis will it legislate if there is no clear
application of Baha'i scripture to the problem? The result of this impasse
in
the Baha'i community seems to be a spirit of avoiding such issues as long as
possible, and in the case of life-style decisions, lots of guilt and pain on
the part of sincere Baha'is who may very honestly feel that non-monogamy is
not
a problem and is in fact preferable at least for themselves in terms of
avoiding
many of the frustrations that exclusive dyadic pairing seems to inevitably
lead
to and at the same time augmenting many of the experiences and character
developments that dyadic pairing is supposed to be nurturing.
Non-monogamy may not be for everyone, but who is to say that it cannot be
for _some_ people, and on what basis? The point of Ryam Nearing's book
"Loving
More" is not that it would be better for everybody to mate in non-dyadic
arrangements, but that if, in individual cases, people clearly want to try
having more than one love partner, they should feel free to go ahead and
attempt
this and that "monos" should tolerate this attempt not just out of politeness
but out of a desire to sincerely learn something new and possibly better.
On the other hand, a would-be norm of permitting some -- any -- people by
their own consent to go beyond the dyad framework needs to be really examined
for what it would give rise to. The properties and "geometry" of the
monogamous
dyad norm give a very clear "skeleton" on which to hang the mind and muscles
of
human society and is based, by Its own statement, on the advice of a Higher
Intelligence. To leave this behind and to adopt a norm of permitting a
potentially unlimited percentage of society to adopt a "fluidized geometry"
of
triads, tetrads, or "free flow" based solely on its own members'
self-interested
wishes and mutual consent may be to introduce enormous non-predicatabilities
into society. Literally analogous to the "three-body" problem in physics,
where
the behavior of two mutually interacting bodies can be calculated, but the
addition of even just one more body makes precise calculation impossible, so
the
introduction of three or more partners into marriage and child rearing
situations as a permissable societal norm may tend to introduce so many
complexities and tie up so much energy trying to cope with them "justly" that
other vital functions might suffer. This must be seen not only in terms of
existing adult capacities to deal with increasing emotional complexity in
poly
families but also in terms of the ability of children of such families to
develop in a healthy way.
In terms of what is ultimately "right" or wrong" about polyamory, I must
admit my ignorance. However, speaking of my own ignorance, I know
self-referentially that it is enormous, (i.e., I know that I don't really
know
how much I don't know). I can thus conclude that I am fully justified
rationally in being afraid of this ignorance, and, conversely, in adopting a
strategy of relying on the guidance of a credibly higher form of intelligence
and in "fearing God" in the sense of being afraid that reliance on my own
judgments may get me into worse situations than relying on God's clear
advice.
But part of me -- the philosopher -- still wishes the world could have
access to an open "chat-line" to the Deity that could be used for real and
ongoing _discussion_ of the questions involved in all these issues instead of
these episodic pulses of "revelation" that occur during or before great
paradigm
shifts or maturation stages in humanity's development and then cease, leaving
us
to be "creative" with it afterwards. The problem has been that some people
misuse this creativity so badly that millions of other people end up being
butchered in the name of some organization's achievement of religious or
ideological purity and perfection. Carl Sagan says of Christianity that it
demonstrably set science back by 1,000 years. Islam's record in recent
centuries has been no better. Think where we could be in the cosmos by now
if
space travel had begun in the year 1000 AD. The loss of human progress
caused
by misapplied religion is staggering beyond our capacities to understand.
The
only justification for God's continuing to inject vague ethical or religious
principles into our lives must, therefore, be that without it, we would make
no
progress at all and lose whatever we had already managed to achieve. If we
grow
up and use moral principles with love and passionate care in our hearts,
rather
than negativity, perhaps we will make greater progress.
************************************
Suzanne, you, as one of the world's rare women rabbis and as a
responsible, thoughtful spiritual advisor, must have given a lot of
consideration to these types of issues. What are some of your thoughts on
polyamory/polyfidelity, sexual norms, divine guidance versus human "rules of
pleasurable reasonableness", etc.? Please, let us all hear your
considerations,
and this goes for all the other people to whom I am sending this, like Tony
Lee,
who is an cutting-edge Baha'i author and editor of Baha'i publications in
California, and my dear friend Samir, originally from India and now theistic
after a youth involved in Marxism in pursuit of social justice. My kids,
John
Henry and Kendra, are very precious to me, and I want them to learn about
these
issues not just as "moral pronouncements" from old fogies like myself but as
part of a process of consultation and participative learning, which is
precisely
what this new technology of the Internet can allow us all to achieve.
Blessings to you all and wishing all of you the best.
John
=END=
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 12:52:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Arabic, knowledge, elitism
Happy Martin Luther King day, everyone!
Several postings this morning touched upon problems of egalitarianism,
religious insight, and specialized knowledge. These are knotty problems,
which have not been resolved.
1. One problem is with the word "understanding," which in English covers
*many* different activities that would be differentiated in Arabic and
Persian. I would say to Doug that the English translations we have are
perfectly good for the attainment of *spiritual* insights (`irfan) and
*ethical* understanding. With regard to spirituality and ethics, we are
all absolutely equal in the sort of understanding we may hope to attain.
There are many laborers who fast under hardship, and some white collar
workers who do not fast because it "gives them a headache;" there are
honest peasants who would refuse a bribe and dishonest businessmen with
Ivy League degrees who would take one; there are housewives who have
practical wisdom about human interrelationships lacking in some sociology
professors; there are ordinary folk who have wept while praying or been
transported by mystical experiences and insights, whereas persons with
higher status have sometimes been denied this depth. Baha'u'llah in the
Suratu'llah says that one oppressed is better than a city full of
tyrants, and a subordinate is better than a thousand superiors. In the
Baha'i Faith, the weak, the poor, the oppressed are considered *superior*
to the middle class and the wealthy; in Liberation Theology this is
called an "option for the poor."
2. The problem is that spiritual insights and practical ethics do not
exhaust the richness of the Baha'i Revelation. There are also things
that need to be understood intellectually or practically with
exactitude. And in these matters, knowledge of the original languages
and contexts of the Tablets is essential. I gave a deepening on the
Aqdas in which one Baha'i asked whether, when Baha'u'llah says "teachers"
should inherit, he means school teachers or those who bring one into the
Faith (who are called "teachers" in Baha'i English). My answer was that
Baha'u'llah in the original Arabic refers to "mu`allim," a
school-teacher, whereas "teachers" of the Baha'i Faith are referred to in
Arabic and Persian by a different word, "muballigh." Knowing the
original language helped answer this question. In the Baha'i Faith,
persons who have this knowledge have no authority or status. I continue
to like Steve Scholl's comparison of them to plumbers. They are persons
with specialized knowledge who can perform a service for others who have
not had the time or interest to acquire that knowledge. The resentment
often expressed in the American community toward intellectuals is, in my
view, an Old World sentiment deriving from Old World intellectuals'
demands for power and authority and their complicitness in oppressive
institutions. Baha'u'llah has stripped intellectuals of power deriving
from their expertise; but he has simultaneously called upon them to serve
humankind and called upon the community to respect those possessing
knowledge. Baha'u'llah abolished the kind of intellectual who served as
the Leninist vanguard in the Soviet Union or who emerged as an ayatollah
in Khomeinist Iran. But he did not abolish the acquisition of knowledge,
nor the need by the community for specialists. Specialists' own
understanding of things, moreover, is inevitably rooted in a community of
knowledge that is created in large part by non-specialists, so there is
tremendous interaction and much indebtedness all around. Finally, a
specialist in one area (say, philosophy) may not have any special
expertise in another (say, economics or computer systems analysis).
I'd be glad to have reactions to my vision of a community that a) has an
option for the poor, b) is imbued with a strong sense of egalitarianism,
c) eschews status differentials based on knowledge or wealth, *but* d)
encourages the acquisition of specialized expertise on the part of some
of its members, as a form of *service* that can be drawn upon and used,
gratefully, by all.
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
From: AGhosh@uh.edu
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 11:26:46 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: In it for the looooong haul
To: talisman@indiana.edu
I do realize that it's my ego that gets hurt. And if I get rid of my ego
there will be nothing that gets hurt. I am sorry I have hurt you and I
sure realize that you can take that little bit form me since you have
taken it for so long.
But football is not a gentleman's game. I agree with Dereck completely.
If only you played cricket you may realize that it's not a win-loss
situation all the time. There's something called a draw (-:
Love
Arindam
=END=
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 11:40:35 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Superbowl predictions
Dear Everyone,
I will be rooting for the Houston Oilers.
For those dealing in reality:
Packers 33 Colts 13
Cowboys 27 Steelers 6
And
Packers 17
Colts 3
For proud Iranians:
Perspolis 3
TAj 1
(My favorite player was CalAni, #7)
take care,
sAmAn
P.S. Austrialian Rules Football => Talisman with a ball ;-)
=END=
From: AGhosh@uh.edu
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 11:16:29 -0600 (CST)
Subject: re:manifestations
To: talisman@indiana.edu
I have always thought that the world of Prophets is the world of Jabarut,
which has no beginning but an end, i.e. to say that all the intermediate
stations are pretty unclear except the end: the station of Bahaullah,
and of course Bahaullah in the world of Lahut has no companion whatsoever.
I include in the Jabarut also the master, the guardian, all the native-
american, indian prophets etc whose stations we (now in Nasut) and even
some of us who will be fortunate enough to be in Malakut will never be
able to fathom.
But I gather there were detailed discussions. What's the address of the
archives. May be I will be able to get to it sometime.
Love
Arindam
=END=
From: Stephen Bedingfield
Subject: re: Iranian bashing
To: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 11:32:41 MST
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Terry wrote:
> I am sure there are some quaint thoughts about the Faith that would be
> attributed to people of Iranian background . Then there are some pretty
> quaint thoughts that can be attributed to Bahais of an American or Western
> background . Why just recently I heard that "somewhere in the writings it
> says . . ."
And quaint thoughts from circumpolar Baha'is as well. My favourite: when
Abdu'l-Baha revealed the Tablets of the Divine Plan (specifically 5 April 1916
tablet to Greenland and Canada) the ocean currents and weather around
Greenland starting changing and will eventually melt the Greenlandic
icecap. Yah right, and flood New York City, the City of the Covenant.
Loving regards, stephen
--
Stephen Bedingfield | "We desire but
Box 115, Cambridge Bay NT X0E 0C0 | the good of the world and
Canada (403) 983-2123 | the happiness of the nations"
email: sbedin@inukshuk.gov.nt.ca | - Baha'u'llah
=END=
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 96 08:22 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: JEWS
A recent post mentioned some Baha'is stating mentioning Jews being punished
for rejecting Christ but once they become Baha'is..etc etc
Maybe this is a distortion of the following quote from Mirza Abul-Fadl:
"They [Jews] will never be awakened and restored to their glory and honor
except by acknowledging the truth of Christ under the banner of the Covenant
of our Lord, El-Abha, and turning unto the Day-Spring of the Lights of His
Testament."
Restored to glory and honor is interesting. If they became Baha'is, how
could they be restored to their glory and honor? Would they now be Baha'is
and not, collectively, Jews? Or would they be Jews still?
Ask a Baha'i if they want the Jews to become Baha'is and they will certainly
say YES. But ask a Baha'i if they want the Jews to cease existing, and the
answer will be far different. This is a complex question. Do we want the
diverse tribes of native peoples to become Baha'is? Do we want the diverse
tribes of native peoples to cease "acting" "living" "worshipping" as native
peoples and instead act, live and worship in exact manner to non-native
peoples? or vice-versa?
I think it may be significant that when a noted Rabbi traveled to attain the
presence of Baha'u'llah, the Blessed Beauty instructed the friends to make
sure the Rabbi, who had embraced the Faith, knew where to find the Kosher
market. Some of the friends were suprised at this, as keeping Jewish dietary
laws was no longer a requirement. But, as Baha'u'llah reminded the other
Baha'is, it was the Rabbi's preference.
There is no Divine Law in the Baha'i faith prohibiting it. That which is not
prohibited is allowed, especially if it is something by which one santifies
life.
thoughts?
Burl
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
Date: 15 Jan 96 14:37:49 EST
From: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
To:
Subject: The AyatollahBowl
Dear Talismanians,
I, like Rob, find the American fascination with football inexplicable and
mind-boggling. My thumbnail description: A spectator "sport" in which
millions of stuporous males and a few hapless females watch while
extra-large pituitary-case millionaires bash each other into submission;
hence my title, the Stupor Bowl.
At the Mysticism Conference (Register NOW! It's almost full! Call Bosch
at 408-423-3387!) I propose the 1st Annual Mystics AyotallahBowl, in
which all aspiring mystical travellers put on helmet/turbans and learn
to express their Heidegger-like fascist impulses while tossing the pigskin.
Linda's on my team!
Love,
David
=END=
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 13:01:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: In the News
1. The New York Times, Jan. 11, included a report by Alan Cowell,
"German Official Calls for Security Surveillance of Scientologists."
Claudia Nolte, the Minister for Family Policy, called Scientology
"aggressive". Founded by science fiction writer Ron L. Hubbard in 1954,
the organization came to Germany in 1970. The government of Bavaria is
considering banning the group outright. The German government considers
the group, with a reported 30,000 membership in that country, an
unscrupulous money-making scheme "whose ideology bears totalitarian
characteristics." Scientologist spokesperson Sabine Weber denounced the
German government's stance and compared it to Nazi antisemitism. "The
accusation of seeking world dominance has been made against new and
aspiring movements for centuries . . ." she said.
2. The New York Times for Jan. 13 ran a "Beliefs" column by Peter
Steinfels on a new evangelical Christian magazine, "Books and Culture,"
that attempts to engage the world and the intellect in a way that has not
been characteristic of evangelicalism in the past. The magazine is
"another sign of the end of evangelical Protestantism's largely
self-imposed quarantine from the general culture." Other commentators
had commented on " a sadly undernourished intellectual life" among
conservative Christians. The editor noted the criticism that evangelical
Christianity discourages "thinking for yourself," a freedom which it sees
as a form of pride and sin. The new magazine, he says, is "for people
who don't think for themselves."
Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 13:53:09 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Spheres of conferred infallibility
Sorry, Brent. I have not had time to respond to your post before now. I do
believe that there is room for different interpretations of this subject.
But, I am happy to respond to your questions from my point of view:
On Sun, 31 Dec 1995 Anthony Lee Member1700@aol.com wrote:
> It seems to me quite clear that the spheres of the Guardian's authority and
> infallibility are not identical. First of all, in the letters that are now
> familiar to all--but which can be reposted, if Juan will be so kind, the
> Guardian very strictly limits the areas of his infallibility to
> interpretation of the text and protection of the Cause. And even here
> infallibility seems to mean only that he must be strictly obeyed by the
> believers.
LIMITATIONS ON INFALLIBILITY
In the primary letter written on behalf of the Guardian mentioning areas
where he is not infallible (the expansive view of which I have
tongue-in-cheek referred to as "The Most Great 'etc.'") it is stated that
he is not infallible in matters of economics. I think it is precisely
because, as he elsewhere stated, there are no technical economic teachings
in the Baha'i Writings. That is, neither Baha'u'llah nor the Master gave
the Guardian Texts to interpret on the subject. Had They chosen to do so,
we would have infallible interpretation and application by the Guardian on
economic matters. I feel that his fallibility in economics derives from a
lack of Revelation on the subject, and is not inherent in the subject
itself.
Tony again: It seems clear to me in that letter that economics was only
cited as an example of the kind of area where the Guardian has to claim to
infallibility. What was the other example cited? I don't have the quote in
front of my right now. But, I believe that the intent of the passage was to
indicate that the Guardian was not infallible in matters of science,
business, history, social science, etc. His infallibility is strictly
limited to matters of interpretation of the Text and protection of the Cause.
PROVISIONAL ENACTMENTS
> Secondly, the Guardian very often adopted policies and procedures for the
> community which he says very explicitly are only provisional and will have
to
> be reviewed by the House of Justice in the future. Here, Shoghi Effendi
was
> acting with the authority of the Head of the Faith to make policy, but
> claiming no infallibility as a legislator--the province of the House.
I know of one such example: The Guardian's decision that pending the
election of the House of Justice, the age of people eligible for election
to LSA's is set at 21. He specifically made this provisional on review by
the House. Do you know of others?
Tony again: Yes, I do. The Guardian stated a couple of times that our
current Baha'i election procedures were only provisional and that they would
have to be reviewed and confirmed by the House of Justice when it was
elected. I think the quotes are in Baha'i Administration (the book).
It is my impression that the entire apparatus of Baha'i procedures
instituted by the Guardian is provisional and subject to change by the House
of Justice. Very little, if any of it, is scriptural in the sense that it
was established by Baha'u'llah in the Holy Text or by 'Abdu'l-Baha in his
interpretations.
To take a trivial example, the election of local Assemblies on the First
Day of Ridvan was a practice instituted by the Guardian as the head of the
Faith. But, it is not an interpretation, nor is it infallible. That
practice has regularly been suspended by the House of Justice to allow the
election of Assemblies at other times--all year long, during the twelve days
of the Ridvan period, etc.--under specific conditions. In the future, the
practice might be dropped altogether, if conditions warrant.
THE FUTURE
> You know, beyond disagreing on the precise limits of the infallibility of
> the Center of the Faith, I am not even sure we have come to any consensus
on
> what the word infallibility means. As we have discussed, the Arabic
implies
> purity, sinlessness, moral rectitude, etc. and not freedom from error.
One of the areas we have previously discussed, is the fallibility of the
Guardian in predicting the future. For example, on p. 76 of "Advent of
Divine Justice," referring to the impact on the American government of the
chaos in the world, he wrote (in 1938), "Out of it [the world shaking
ordeal] it [America] will probably emerge, unlike its reactions to the
********
last world conflict, consciously determined to seize its opportunity, to
bring the full weight of its influence to bear upon the gigantic problems
that such an ordeal must leave in its wake, and to exorcise [war] forever
..."
The conditional word "probably" indicates that the Guardian could not with
certainty state whether America would awaken to its destiny sooner, or
later. On that same page he refers to "the most likely developments" in
the future. Here Shoghi Effendi is reading the "signs of the times" and
applying the Writings to them, where he is indicating the probabilities of
the future. My own feeling is that even if I take the most limited scope
of infallibility - moral purity - I feel confident that nobody had a
clearer view of the future than the Guardian. The combination of his
unerring understanding of the Texts and the implications of the Texts
invisible to the general reader, with his application of these to the
trends he saw in the world, provided him with a vision of the future that
I feel is unparalleled in clarity.
Tony again: Well, I would certainly agree with your assessment of the
Guardian's profound clarity and insight into social conditions. But, I
certainly do not think that he could predict the future. Neither did he.
(Doesn't Ruhiyyih Khanum complain about Baha'is having this expectation in
her book, Perscription for Living? Or maybe it was somewhere else.)
In my view, the infallibility of the Guardian and the House of Justice
is much more profound and meaningful--more global--than this prediction, or
that statement or the other. Rather, it is an acknowledgement of the proper
order of things--that there is a head of the Faith that must be respected and
obeyed in order for the Baha'i Faith to acheive its purpose.
To me, to insist on propositional infallibility--which in any case can
easily be disproven--is to trivialize the signicance of the Covenant and the
position of the Head of the Faith. (As you know, I believe that the
provisions of the Covenant and the concept of infallibility are two different
things--not dependent upon one another.) In any case, the statement that the
House (in our contemporary case) is infallibile--which means: immaculate,
sinless, morally correct and pure, the embodiment of rectitude, etc.--is a
statement of its necessary position as the supreme authority of the Faith.
That's it.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 14:17:25 -0600 (CST)
Subject: "Nixon" Oliver Stone's new film
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Talisman"
Dear Talismanians,
Film theory was my "area of expertise" during my studies of English
Literature, although, my approved disertation
topic was "The Influence of German Idealism on the Works of Carlos
Castaneda". It was to be the definative work on
Castaneda. Because after only being able to put together a rather small
bibliography, on my man, I became aware how
little critical interest there had been in such a popular and
misunderstood writer. Then I had my heart attack. That was that.
Now your probably saying to yourselves, "Yeah, he would be interested in
an Oliver Stone movie." But wait! This was a very
artistic piece of work. His detractors on this film are largely the
remenants of the Nixon White House, who ave recently re-emerged
from oblivion, and a few close relatives. Oliver is really starting to
find his own style and "Nixon" is a masterly example of it. Nixon
contains many facinating visual references to other great films and I
find it particularly refreshing that an art work can double
as entertainment. Please go see it.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 12:19:12 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: House of Worship Fund
Dear All,
It seems like this thread is winding down, but I do want
to propose one last thing.
Robert S. mentioned that one of the impracticalities of
establising a joint fund between LSAs from various
states is that all the different banking laws need to
followed.
What if (and as I said, I am not that knowledgeable about
money matters so there may be fundamental flaws):
Assume:
1. A community like Houston would like to build a
Local House of Worship.
2. 500 LSAs loan $1,000 each to the Houston LSA - this
would be like a contract between two corporations.
3. In the greater Houston area, there are at least
500 people who can contribute $1.00 per day to
the House of Worship Fund without changing their pattern of
giving to any other Baha'i Fund - this means that in 3
years the greater Houston area can raise $547,500.
4. $47,500 is nearly %9 interest :-)
The way I see it, most of the communities who have saving
accounts for Baha'i Centers, are not very close to the
amount needed for the purchase or construction of a
building. This way at least the bigger communities will
slowly have a structure.
Note that the same $500,000 could be given to several
smaller communties for construction of more modest
buldings.
regards,
sAmAn
=END=
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 96 08:06 PST
To: "Here a moo, there a moo, everywhere a moomoo"
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Onan, the barbarian?/ Re: Great Expectations
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
>Has anyone logged into the "aryan nation" web page?
Yes. Easy to find, hard to forget. You'll find it cleverly listed under
Jewish Studies, Torah, or Talmud when you run your web browser...you can
tell which one it is by the description of how this paper will reveal the
hidden secrets of the Talmud...it is a hot link to the entire White
Supremists web page with all the links...
BB
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: "Mark A. Foster" , talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 10:51:34 EST
Subject: Re: New Baha'i Studies List (one more time)
Dear Mark,
Your efforts for the subject above is absolutely wonderful.
But, I have questions as to how you will accomplish the
objectives of free-learning atmosphere with rules
2 and 3 in view of the rule #6. I mean how can you
subject people of other faiths to this rule and what
would be the consequence of violation of 2, 3 if
you fall in the category of someone from another
faith? For example, some of my friends who are christian
and joined talisman a while back, may feel uneasy.
lovingly,
6. The list is open and unmoderated. However, all posters (Baha'is,
members of other faiths, or those of no particular faith) are expected
to abide by these rules and to agree to the list objectives.
2. Not to criticize the institutions of the Baha'i Faith or their
policies. This is not a "griping" list. Postings should be positive.
3. Not to question the infallibility of the Central Figures of the
Baha'i Faith, the Guardianship, or the Universal House of Justice.
Certainly, *reverent* attempts to understand the nature of infallibility
are permitted.
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 11:14:50 EST
Subject: Winter song/revised summertime
Winter time,
and the people are busy,
words are jumping,
and the volume is high.
Your thoughts are rich,
and very intruiging,
so, rush through the screen,
in frustration and awe.
One of these moments,
you gonna wake up screaming,
and find out that
you just can't withdraw.
***************************
Just for the inquiry,
to those hooked on talisman
there's no cure,
like talismanic-anonymous
for one's recovery.
Behold, I'm an addict,
first time in life.
=END=
Date: Sat, 13 Jan 1996 07:54:30 -0800
To: "Ahang Rabbani" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re: Iranian bashing
Hello, I read Richard's post, and I have to say that in no way was he making
a racist statement... One of the views I get from the Persians, and I am
only qualifying that for a reason, in that most of the perceptions of the
Americans from the Persian POV is that we are not "deepened" enough, and
that the "Persians" are more spiritual than the rest of us Americans. How
can you "qualitify" being more spiritual?
True, our cultures differ and varie, but we can learn from both... I also
am aware of a greater separation between the Persians and the Blacks in the
community. I have no clue why?
One more thing, lately I had to digress my Bahai History to other Bahai's.
I stated I was 4th generation. One man stated that he too was 4th
generation, some relation to an some famous Persian name but did not believe
my heritage. He utterly disbelieved that a American could be more than 2nd
generation. He could not handle it. So, here I am a white, 4 generation
Bahai, whose Great-grandmother met with Abdul'Baha twice, and received 2
cables from Abdul'Baha later, taught a wonderful man the faith, the late Dan
Jordan, whose daughter (my grandmother) age 17, also met Abdul'Baha who told
her to pray. He told others to teach: Leroy Ioas was there, I forget who
all else.. and she devoted 30 years of her life to working on the Index
Commitee. Now part of the Science Of Reality project. (I think Mark Foster
has his hands in on this) There is a picture of the children with
Abdul'Baha in a park in Chicago. The one with the girl with a big bow in
her hair--that is NOT my grandmother, but if you look to the left (your left
as you hold the book) for a girl with her hands at an odd angle for she is
holding a white carnation,.. (news story at 11:00PM) against a white
dress... The pic is in the Bahai World Volumns but I forget which one as my
books are packed...
This does not make me a spiriual giant... just makes me have to work a
little harder to earn my "wings" for my spiritual development.
Margreet--
Proud to be a 4th Generation White American Bahai.
At 02:50 PM 1/12/96 -0500, Ahang Rabbani wrote:
>[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
>
>
>> I believe what you are describing is an "Iranian Outlook" on the
>> question of Quddus. In my experience, there have been many issues which
>> Persians generally don't talk to westerners (ourselves) about. These
>> positions may be irrational or simply indulgent but I like to think that
>> there may be something there. I think your reaction to Ahang is an
>> example of one of the reasons Iranian don't often talk about these ideas.
>> Maybe Ashang should be beheaded over this? I don't know. I used to
>> hear this and many other things during my time at Berkeley. Some other
>> Iranian chesnuts are the ideas that one cannot pray to God--I even heard
>> it said that our prayers can't even reach Badi. Another suggests that
>> Baha'u'llah always knew he was the Prophet of God and another was, quite
>> unbelieveably, that Baha'u'llah was greater than the other Prophets. Now
>> let be cautious here-- I 'm not saying that Iranians in general believe
>> these things--what I am saying is it seems there are proponents of
>> certain extra-scriptural concepts.
>
>
>The above statement is so profoundly racist that I won't dignify
>it with a rebuttal.
>
>Ahang Rabbani, proud to be an Iranian Baha'i!
>
=END=
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 14:44:42 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Fwd: "Sex-Positive" Christian Theology
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: , "Talisman"
Tony writes:
> The problem with using revelation as a basis for deciding individual
>sexual norms is that, given the limited materials that God has chosen to
>impart
>to us, many basic questions remain unclear, and there is simply no rational
>discussion of many basic issues, including how earnestly, in the overiding
>interests of society, a norm must be enforced against those who do not
>subscribe
>to it, or how much effort do we individuals really need to spend resisting
>our
>own non-normative sexual urges and why, or how much love and sexual
>satisfaction
Nice try!
I don't know--my immediate reaction is: one could make a similar
arguement for
most anything they had the urge to do i.e. I 'd like to take some LSD and
see if Timothy
Leary was right.
I know if one of my children came up to me with that reasoning
it wouldn't go down well, but I'd be amused.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 96 14:00:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: letter to Haifa
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
I just wanted folks know that I've decided against sending the
attached letter to the World Centre.
I am the type that I don't follow up with things that receives
even the barest of criticism and this letter, though conceived
with noble intentions, was subject of at least one open criticism
on Talisman and a couple of private ones, hence for the sake of
unity of the friends, I won't follow through with it. If
suggestion towards publication of more Tablets of Baha'u'llah
will cause friends to be upset with each other, then its best not
to publish Them. ahang.
Department of the Secretariat
Baha'i World Centre
Dearly-loved Friends,
Thrilled with the prospect of the Four Year Plan, and knowing
that the World Centre is presently engaged in formulating its
many details, a number of us on Talisman discussion forum have
consulted and wish to offer the suggestion that one of the
objectives of the Plan be the preparation of selections from the
Writings of Baha'u'llah.
Through the beloved Guardian's translation and publication of
various Writings of Baha'u'llah, the Baha'i world has grown
considerably closer to the Author of the Dispensation. And since
his ministry, the community has benefited further by receiving
"Tablets of Baha'u'llah, revealed after the Kitab-i Aqdas", and
more recently, "The Kitab-i Aqdas". But many of us thirst for
even more of His Revelation to become accessible to the community
and in particular long to expand our spiritual understandings
through His mystical and devotional Writings.
Should the Supreme Body consider our humble suggestion worthy of
its consideration, we respectfully recommend that the recent
publication of "The Kitab-i Aqdas" be used as a model for such
undertaking, through:
1. participation of wide-range of Baha'i scholars in both
selection and translation process;
2. inclusion of substantial annotation, elucidating obscure
passages;
3. preparation of a detailed index;
4. where possible, inclusion of full Text of Tablets (as opposed
to segments as in the Gleanings).
5. simultaneous publication of the original Text as a separate
volume.
Judging from the large quantities of provisional translations in
the Baha'i Studies Bulletin as well as those posted on Talisman
and Tarjuman discussion groups, it seems that a substantial
amount of work has already occurred which could serve very
usefully as the basis for this proposed volume.
This letter and suggestion is offered as a token of our love for
Baha'u'llah's stupendous Revelation and our desire to immerse
ourselves in His ocean of utterance.
With deepest love and devotion,
Payam Afsharian; Saman Ahmadi; Naghmeh Astani;
Christopher Buck; Paul Clifton; Juan Cole; Terry
Culhane; Marcus Day; Paul Easton; Alma Engels; Chris
Filstrup; Stephen Fuqua; Arindam Ghosh; Iskandar Hai;
Arman Hamraei; Nima Hazini; Farida Johnson; Ranneh
Keyfan; David Langness; Anthony Lee; Peter Loehndorf;
Richard Logan; Riaz Masrour; Dann May; Lora McCall;
Gordon McFarlane; Sen McGlinn; Mike McKenney; Douglas
Myers; Daniel Orey; Ahang Rabbani; Maryam Rabbani;
Arsalan Sadighi; Steven Scholl; Cindy Van Kley; John
Walbridge; Jonah Winters; Mehdi Wolf
=END=
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 17:56:12 -0500 (EST)
From: George Gary
To: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Questions on Teaching etc.
In one sense the problem is local as once the unity and love the
Master talks about is evident in the local community to the extent that
no one is left out and all are ready to sacrifice for each other,
others will notice it. This fire will then spread. Mr. Hoffman once
made the point that the maturity of the local institutions more
dependent on the individual members of the community than on the
members of the local institutions.
Do we go out of our way to talk to Baha'is we don't see often or who
come from a different background and so on. If we can't do this with
every member of our local Baha'i communities, how can we do it with
mankind as a whole?
The Master said that if the wrong decision is made by the institutions
and everyone tries to help implement the decision, then the power of
unity will soon make it evident that the wrong decision was made the
right decision will be arrived at. I hope I didn't mangle that too much.
=END=
From: "Lora McCall"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 14:55:11 CST
Subject: Re: reforms, forgiveness, etc.
Dear Talismaniacs,
Something at the end of Mary Radpour's lengthy post inspired me to
respond.
Mary said:
> I believe, with her, that all
> the most glorious plans in the world are naught if we are unwilling to serve
as
> soldiers and follow the leadership of those whom God has designated as our
> leaders: the Spiritual Assemblies. But who is willing to encourage these
> Assemblies to exercise this leadership? Who will take the risk of being
marched
> into a swamp in order to convince the Assembly that it has the power to
effect a
> movement? Who will honor the generals at the Feast? Who will challenge the
> bureaucrat to look up from his desk and to see a vision of possibility?
I reject the military model categorically. It is useless for
creating anything but cannon fodder and bottom line order during
disasters (which is does quite well, by the way). I believe what
Baha'u'llah had in mind is a world that is much more rich, beautiful,
complicated and individually empowering. I will never again follow
blindly, nor shout, "Yes sir! How high?" Count me out of those
ranks.
What generals are we talking about who'll be honored at Feast??? No,
no, no -- I can't agree to this!
Lora
=END=
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 96 14:16:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: letter on Writings of Baha'u'llah
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
The following is a draft letter for the consideration of the
World Centre. All upgrades will be warmly welcomed and you have
until Monday to add/delete your name from it. thanks, ahang.
Department of the Secretariat
Baha'i World Centre
Dearly-loved Friends,
Thrilled with the prospect of the Four Year Plan, and knowing that
the World Centre is presently engaged in formulating its many
details, a number of us on Talisman discussion forum have consulted
and wish to offer the suggestion that one of the objectives of the
Plan be the preparation of selections from the Writings of
Baha'u'llah.
Through the beloved Guardian's translation and publication of various
Writings of Baha'u'llah, the Baha'i world has grown considerably
closer to the Author of the Dispensation. And since his ministry,
the community has benefited further by receiving "Tablets of
Baha'u'llah, revealed after the Kitab-i Aqdas", and more recently,
"The Kitab-i Aqdas". But many of us thirst for even more of His
Revelation to become accessible to the community and in particular
long to expand our spiritual understandings through His mystical and
devotional Writings. Therefore, we implore the House of Justice not
to deprive us any longer of this incomparable blessing.
Should the Supreme Body consider our humble petition worthy of its
precious consideration, we respectfully recommend that the recent
publication of "The Kitab-i Aqdas" be used as a model for such
undertaking, through:
1. participation of wide-range of recognized Baha'i scholars in both
selection and translation process;
2. inclusion of substantial annotation, elucidating obscure
passages;
3. preparation of a detailed index;
4. where possible, inclusion of full Text of Tablets (as opposed to
segments as in the Gleanings).
5. simultaneous publication of the original Text as a separate
volume.
Judging from the large quantities of provisional translations in the
Baha'i Studies Bulletin as well as those posted on Talisman and
Tarjuman discussion groups, it seems that a substantial amount of
work has already occurred which could serve very usefully as the
basis for this proposed volume.
This letter and suggestion is offered as a token of our love for
Baha'u'llah's stupendous Revelation and our desire to immerse
ourselves in His ocean of utterance.
With deepest love and devotion,
Saman Ahmadi
Stephen Bedingfield
Chris Filstrup
Arindam Ghosh
Anthony Lee
Richard Logan
Lora McCall
Gordon McFarlane
Ahang Rabbani
Steven Scholl
John Walbridge
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 96 15:39:58 PST
Subject: RE: forgiveness:altruism gene
To: talisman@indiana.edu, "Eric D. Pierce" ,
748-9178@mcimail.com, Jim Blake <0006596916@mcimail.com>,
wog@poseidon.usnus.abb.com
On Thu, 11 Jan 1996 11:19:33 PST8PDT Eric D. Pierce wrote:
>Ha Ha! Finally, the opening I was waiting for. A while ago,
>(during the debate over evolution and homosexuality?) Juan
>mentioned that he is down on sociobiology. Is anyone besides
>me interested in asking him to elaborate?
>
>Grrrrr Woof Woof!
>
>EP
>
>> From: SFotos@eworld.com
>> Date sent: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 02:29:27 -0800
>> To: talisman@indiana.edu
>> Subject: humility & forgiveness-neurolinguistically
>
>...snip
>> Philip asks: Where, neurobiologically speaking, are our spiritual
virtues and
>> qualities?
>>
>> A few years ago, sociobiologists investigated an evidently
genetically
>> determined behavior pattern they called the "altruism gene." This
referred
>> to acts of self-sacrifice in various species-- including humans.
Such
>> behavior was interpreted as evolutionarily favored because it
conferred
>> survival advantages on members of the population in which it
appeared
>> (although not necessarily on the carrier!).
>
>...
On the altruism gene: this from Joseph Campbell in his Historical
Atlas of World Mythology, Vol 1, page 47:
"Schopenhauer, in his essay "On the Foundation of Morality," asks how
it is that one can be so immediately moved by the pain and danger of
another that, forgetting one's own well being and safety, one springs
to that other's rescue. How is it, he asks, that what has been
described as the first law of nature, self-preservation, can be
suspended in this way, immediately, spontaneously, and even to the
loss of the rescuer's life? To this he replies that this expression
of the mystery of compassion is an effect of the experience of an
antecedent truth of nature, namely, that "I" and "that other" are
one. Our sense and experience of separateness is of a secondary
order, a mere effect of the way in which lightworld consciousness
experiences objects within a conditioning frame of space and time.
More deeply, more truely, we are of one life: which finally, is but
the philosoper's way of stating something that in a biological sense,
become clearly evident when the mind's eye, running back along the
time chart of the branching tree of life, comes to its Archeozoic
root.
The two claims, on the one hand, of an individual existence, and on
the other, of transpersonal identity, alternate and compete in the
lifetimes both of beasts and of men; and whenever the larger force
takes over, the individual, forgetting itself in a seizure, acts in
manners stereotyped to the species, often with little or no regard
for self-preservation. The courtship dances and displays of birds and
fish are examples of such performances. Many of the choreographic
patterns develop through intermeshing sequences of stereotyped
responses to specific signals from the partner, and if any of these
fails from either side, the contradance breaks off.
None of the moves in such display has been learned. All are comon to
the species, released from within compulsively in response to the
specific sign stimuli. "
And now, from Philip, a much simpler intellect.
Campbell does not claim an altuism gene, per se. But he does say that
altruism is the most fundamental biological truth.
Where this gets tangled with the stuff I am trying to sort out is
that I talk about the amygdalla as having the power to initiate
actions before we can think about them. And then I said that the
higher, more spiritual values came from the mediation of those
initial impulses.
However, Campbell's point throws much of this up in the air.
I can say that the "High" process mediate and spiritualize the
"lower" "animal" processes and be convincing about it when I
characterize the lower processes as "either eat it, avoid it or mate
it." But Campbell reminds us to add a fourth choice "sacrifice
yourself ."
With a shrug for now.
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/11/96
Time: 15:39:58
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 17:43:32 -0500 (EST)
From: George Gary
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: sociobiology?/ Re: humility & forgiveness-neurolinguistically
Abdu'l-Baha talks about the sympathetic nervous system being partly
physical and partly spiritual in function. I can't remember the source.
also several places he mentions the inheritance of character as in the
the lines of the profphets. Is this relevant?
=END=
From: AGhosh@uh.edu
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 15:58:32 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Sorry, I could not hold back
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Sorry I could not hold back. Has it become a sin to love the NSA or try
to street-teach? participating last 7 days in talisman and criticisms
therein has dampened my passion for teaching in a way which the LSA's
immobility over the past year could not. Talk about disempowerment by
criticism. I am sure I will get over it. But I thought I should let
everybody know.
Love
Arindam
=END=
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 13:09:17 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Talisman Mystics Bowl .
To: talisman@indiana.edu
My dear David Langness posted he wanted Linda on his team to play at
the Mystics Bowl at Bosch .One of my personal concerns would be that
Linda would not be able to get more black and white lace Shi'ite Ninja
outfits for the team . Also Linda I understand is coming with her
personal bodyguard of 12 Shi'ite women from her Shi'ite Women Rule
Attack Mob . Clearly they will demand to play with Linda. David I do
not believe any male would risk life and limb against such fearsome
odds . In particular the stirring music that Linda has played as they
go into action is nerve shattering . Burl can explain more of this
dreadful secret aspect of the Linda 'cult '. No wonder Juan is still
suffering after having such music played at him in the Hotel Laundry in
DC .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
Hello Linda
=END=
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 16:49:18 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: Ahang Rabbani
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: letter to Haifa
I certainly had no objection to your letter. It is a pity that something
so fundamentally benign cannot go through.
john
=END=
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 96 14:53 PST
To: "Richard C. Logan"
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: "Nixon" Oliver Stone's new film
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Nixon
>contains many facinating visual references to other great films and I
>find it particularly refreshing that an art work can double
>as entertainment. Please go see it.
>
>I did and enjoyed it. The CITIZEN KANE stuff was soooo blatant, and funny
to me, (even the music!) and some direct lines of dialog..
very clever and the acting was superb. Much better than MORTAL COMBAT -THE
MOVIE, which I found very dissapointing. 12 MONKEYS was BRAZIL with
graffitti, and no one walked out of SEVEN whistling the theme. ABOVE
SUSPICIAN is cool, but not quite THE LAST SEDUCTION -- now THERE is a movie
to put in a time capsule for future social historians! It was a severe
breach of Baha'u'llah's insistence upon justice ( I knew I could tie the
Baha'i Faith in here somewhere) that the lead actress was considered exempt
from Oscar nomination because the film aired first on HBO.
BB
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 96 14:54 PST
To: Juan R Cole
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: PBS
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
> private
>broadcasters (who *pay nothing* for this privilege, and who give
>*nothing* back to the public except an opportunity to buy the products of
>corporate sponsors,
Hey! No fair! When have private broadcasters ever made such sweeping
negative statements about your profession? Not recently?
Well, I bet I can round up several of us who would be delighted to
stoke the fires of equal affrontery.. Hmmm let's see....BAHI
Broadcasters Against Historian's Insults.
As I support PBS and NPR I agree with your statements *except* for the above
quoted sweeping condemnation of private broadcasters, as my friends and I
are included in your condemnation.
Burl (its not my fault, my mother was bitten by a sociobiologist before i
was born and my cranial size indicates that I was destined to be a private
broadcaster)
*******************************************************
Order MAN OVERBOARD, the new book by Burl Barer today!
*******************************************************
=END=
Date: Tue, 16 Jan 1996 12:15:29 +1300 (NZDT)
To: jwalbrid , Talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Traitorous translation
John wrote:
>The answer is that you cannot fully understand Baha'u'llah's writings
>while reading them in English translation, nor can you fully understand
>*God Passes By* (or Shakespeare) in Persian translation.
While knowledge of the original language must be helpful, it does not
necessarily admit people who know that language to a higher plane of
spiritual understanding. Were that so, all the Islamic world would be
Baha'i by now. Further, I have had enough difficulties with the
scriptural comprehension of Talismanic exponents of Persian and Arabic to
make me extremely wary of elitist claims from those who are able to read
Baha'u'llah in the original. Juan, for instance, ignored the word in the
first paragraph of SDC Gail translated as wisdom, and incorporated it into
the word "intellect". This seemed to me to be a rather obvious error, and
when I questioned him on it, I did not find the response satisfying at all.
It seemed to me at the time that while some translators promoted "knowledge
of context" positions, "context", when it comes to scripture, entails a far
wider reference than immediate socio-historical circumstances. Indeed, I
have seen that knowledge of immediate socio-historical circumstances can be
a veil if given the wrong emphasis.
Besides all this, if every word in the Holy Writ has more than 70 meanings,
who can "fully" understand the Writings anyway?
Robert.
=END=
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 15:00:57 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu, Stephen Bedingfield
From: nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
Subject: Re: Question on "Say: God sufficeth..."
Dear Stephen,
Forgive me if I muddy the waters for I have no authoritative answer.
This has interested me also. "Selections from the Writings of the Bab" was
copyrighted in 1976 and the translation of that prayer was not done by
Shoghi Efendi. The current edition of "Baha'i Prayers" was copyrighted in
1982 and rnewed in 1985. My deduction from these facts is that, perhaps,
the version in "Baha'i Prayers" is a new, better translation.
Doug Myers
nightbrd@humboldt1.com
"Nothing survives but the way we live our lives." JB
>Friends, I am making the assumption that the prayer "Say: God sufficeth..."
>printed in *Selections from the Writing of the Bab*, p.123 is an updated
>translation of the prayer found in *Baha'i Prayers*, US BPT, p.29. Is this
>correct?
>
>Warmly, stephen
>--
>Stephen Bedingfield | "We desire but
>Box 115, Cambridge Bay NT X0E 0C0 | the good of the world and
>Canada (403) 983-2123 | the happiness of the nations"
>email: sbedin@inukshuk.gov.nt.ca | - Baha'u'llah
>
=END=
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 17:44:34 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Ahang Rabbani
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: letter to Haifa
Ahang jan--
If it's OK with you, I'd like to volunteer to send the letter off to the
World Centre.
Regards,
Nima
=END=
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 1996 17:41:40 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
