Jan 9-13, 1996
Talisman emails received 1/9/96
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Date: Mon, 08 Jan 1996 22:18:43 -0700
To: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: Re: nobody@replay.com
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
>> Did anybody NOT get it?
>I didn't.
>I feel left out.
>Don C
Deer Don;
I ain't heard nothin' from nobody neither. But I ain't slighted in the
least. Seems t' me nobody's capable of divertin' these here itellectshual's
on Tallisman from foccusin' on more important matters. I just gotta say
that nobody ain't welcome in my nayberhood.
LBG's Gord.
---
Gordon McFarlane e-mail: MCFARLANE@upanet.uleth.ca
Public Access Internet
The University of Lethbridge
=END=
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 00:15:04 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: "Eric D. Pierce"
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Re (2): Jonestown & Mossedegh [+ watergate!]
Eric--
Thanks for the post and send my regards to your Kirmani friend (my
grandfather is actually from a town just a few short miles away --
Rafsanjan).
As regards to Mossadegh, I too think the role of the CIA is often
exagerated by Iranian expatriates, nevertheless we have the testimony of
the chief Agency operations-man, Kermit Roosevelt, in _Countercoup_ and the
Shah's telling comments after the coup such that he owed his thrown to Mr.
Roosevelt and co. I also agree that religion had a big part to do with the
coup, especially since Ayatollah Borujerdi and other religious
hardliners in the majlis withdrew out of the National Front, becoming
in effect Mossadeq's opposition and thus opening up the field to the
royalists and arch-monarchist mullas like Falsafi. However, Mossadeq enjoyed
the overwhelming support of most urbanites, contrary to what the Shah and
most later analysts have said -- the 1952 mini-revolution which brought
him back to power after he had been briefly dismissed by the Shah over
the resulting national/international fiasco subsequent to the
nationalization of oil is ample testimony to this fact.
Mossadegh was by no means a communist, or a fellow-traveller for that
matter -- this is myth, pure and simple. Mossadegh was a
nationalist liberal-democratic politician through and through and one
imbued with the values of the the Constitutionalist Revolution of 1905-9.
I highly encourage you to read his autobiography which was recently
translated with an introduction by Homa Katouzian. Vested interests such
as those belonging to the monarchists and hard-core conservative foreign
policy pundits in this country are the ones who have insisted/and are
insisting on Mossadegh's "red" connection. There was none, and they know it!
He was an aristocrat by birth, for God's sake. They base their evidence
on the fact that in Mossadeq's second cabinet some of the important
portfolios where given to prominent members of the Tudeh Party. This was
nothing more than political maneouvering on Mossadegh's part in order to
keep the Tudeh in line, which left to its own devices was out of control
and could have possibly started another civil war in the country
(remember, the Soviet Republics of Kurdistan & Azerbaijan where still
fresh in the memories of the Tudeh and, more importantly, Stalin was
still alive although on his last death-throes). Certain elements dispute
this evidence by stating that the ultra-right-wing proto-Hizbullah,
Fadayeen-i Islam, were just as dangerous, and somewhat popular, as the
Tudeh. Maybe...but the Fadayeen-i Islam weren't interested in delivering
the country to the Soviets either, thus Mossadegh's delicate position in
the whole scheme of things. Btw, the Kangaroo-court convened after the
coup which indicted Mossadegh and his right-hand-man, Dr Hussein Fatemi
(he was executed), was never able to produce a shred of evidence of any
soviet connection -- these were fabrications later made by the Shah and
the royalists (see his pitable attempt at producing evidence in _Mission
for My Country_ and _Answer to History_).
On the Baha'is benefitting from the August 1953 coup d'etat: I
seriously doubt it, since the Baha'is still enjoyed an official
second-class, nay third-class, status and soon after the coup the shah
let loose Falsafi and the religious hard-liners in the military against
the Baha'is to divert the publics attention from a pending oil deal the
government was making with foreign companies -- although,
I guess, the only Baha'is who really benefitted where millionares with
previous ties to the court like Habib Sabet (he, btw, helped the Shah
during his brief stay in Rome just prior to the coup), later Hojabr
Yazdani and others.
Pretty interesting stuff...
Nima
=END=
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 22:39:11 +1300
To: talisman@indiana.edu, jrcole@umich.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Secret of Divine Civilization
Dear Juan,
The passage submitted is undoubtedly part of a work of
considerable scholarship, and for this it receives my humble admiration.
I'd like to ask a about something in the last part of the passage, and make
a comment.
At 12:35 AM 9/1/96, Juan R Cole wrote:
> `Abdu'l-Baha begins his Secret of Divine Civilization by
>praising reason or intellect (`aql)
In both the
>Qur'an and in Greco-Islamic philosophy, knowledge and the intellect
>are prized. Into this
>humanist rationalism of the urbane Islamic tradition, the tradition of
>Avicenna, Suhrawardi and Mulla Sadra, `Abdu'l-Baha infuses the
>nineteenth-century notion of civilizational progress.
(1) Humanist rationalism? Please, what exactly is humanist rationalism?
(2) 'Abdu'l-Baha actually praises intellect AND wisdom:
"Praise and thanksgiving be unto Providence that out of all the realities
in existence He has chosen the reality of man and has honored it with
intellect and wisdom, the two most luminous lights in either world."
Earlier I commented on the opening paragraphs: "[The] power of mind
(characterised to intellect and wisdom, which I take to be science/arts and
religious values respectively) enlightens the world...."
I think the bird's two wings, faith and knowledge, are clearly indicated.
Best wishes,
Robert.
=END=
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 22:58:43 +1300
To: SFotos@eworld.com, talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: S.E.I.A.P.M.R.D. & M.M.A-I,& G.
At 6:39 PM 8/1/96, SFotos@eworld.com wrote:
>Dear friends,
>
>Don't you think that this post by Terry on Shoghi Effendi is exactly the type
>of work which should appear in an e-zine?
>
And Gordon's, "Myth, metaphor, anti-intellectualism & gender."
Robert.
=END=
From: "Steven Kolins"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 06:58:20 EST
Subject: Explaining banshee
Dear Folks,
I have no earthly idea why someone takes a microphone and asks 200
people what a partner in a private conversation meant with what they
said. I always trusted that private means just that private!
To explain the matter: English is my second foreign language. I
looked banshee in the dictionary and sent a private joke. Little did
I know that we all have different understanding what is private.
Heaven forbid that talisman be infested with backbiting. So, if you
have any questions of me, please ask. Thank you.
QUANTA DAWN-LIGHT
All I need is Freedom of spirit, Chastity of soul, and Purity of
heart. A pov is not even secondary.
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 08:31:02 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Jim's reforms
With the suggestion that Houston etc. have *seen* great success. I would
suggest that we could string out a long list of *great successes!!* here;
Atlanta, Oregon, California, Florida, N. Carolina, etc, etc, etc. All have
flared up to the excitment and hope of all of us, and to great fanfare. All
have died away. Reread the message from the House Ridvan 1984.
Also, if you read carefully I never said it WON'T happen; I said it will not
happen IF we continue down this same road. And phrases that have lost any
real meaning such as *rally around* and *give loving support* etc., will not
bring success.
I submit sir that it is very much like a football game. If the team is down
by three touchdowns at the half the last thing the couch wants to spend his
precious fifteen minutes doing is needlessly praising the few good things the
team has done. Mention them - sure. But the point of the halftime is to
discover and correct those elements of the game strategy that are not working
- so that victory can be attained.
jim harrison
Alethinos
(sorry for ignoring other messages but AOL is having terrible email
problems.)
=END=
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 07:38:58 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: RE:
Hello all, I have this dear Bahai women friend, who knows the Writings
inside out and backwards... Can pin-point to the paragraph almost anything
in the Writings..... It is truely amazing what she can do. However, she was
head-injured as child... (now an middle-age adult) and not your social
butterfly and completely unaware of most day to day *just living* things.
Things you and I do without thinking for being normal folks. But she is
probably one of the most steadfast believers that I know. Truely amazing.
And if she had a computer and an Internet connection. I bet she give the
Intellects a run for their money... or at least be on the level to really
pick your brain... lol lol
At one of the recent conferences I attended,--nothing real big, just us
local folks, a group of us realized that the Bahai Faith would be the only
place this gal would fit for the simple reason that we have to look at the
good qualities a person has and forget the rest... I attended a local
church for a while with a friend, and they did not have anyone *challenged*
at all, from what I could see. All looked normal. No one in a wheelchair,
on crutches,--and not even pregnant! Gad's you go to some large Bahai
Function, and tons of preggies there... LOL LOL I asked my friend about the
church (small about 40 members) if they admitted *challenged* people. None
that he knew of, as he was a member for over 8 years. Strange! And as we
have more EBT we could get and will get the whole gambit of our society.
Just a thought,
Margreet
At 12:32 AM 1/9/96 EST, Steven Kolins wrote:
>The only person who enabled me to understand the station of
>Baha'u'llah with his deep love and awesome knowledge of the
>Revelation is a man who was considered mentally-ill and who has been
>living in a tipi for years. He was always shunned and treated less
>than kindly manner by mind-experts (psychologist, psychiatrists,
>family therapists) in our community. It has made me revolt against
>this type of people. If found them so engrossed in their ego as
>experts that they were failing to attract me to the Faith. But, I owe
>my deepening to the underdog, in this case. Mental giants can be
>spiritual dwarfs. This is my few pennies worth on the subject.
>In fact a few years later, these experts thenselves looked pretty
>pathetic, mentally. But, my heart goes out to them.
>
>Quanta Dawn-LightAll I need is Freedom of spirit, Chastity of soul, and
Purity of
>heart. A pov is not even secondary.
>
=END=
From: Geocitizen@aol.com
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 11:32:58 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: quick note (yes, email problems)
Due to AOL having some kind of nasty technical problem, the dates on the
talisman messages in my inbox jump from 01/05 to 01/09, and I was able to
quickly scan only a few of the messages posted between Friday and Tuesday.
Thus my replies will also be quick and to the point, and clustered in this
one message.
On fascism
To Quanta: Nothing in my comments was meant to suggest "we should be
thankful because we are not being shot, imprisoned, gassed, etc." (my
paraphrase of your characterization of why my comments offended you so very
deeply). The pain that Baha'is have experienced because their institutions
and communities are immature has been very real, and I make no effort to deny
that. I simply object to the statement that anything Baha'i institutions
have done is "identical in every dimension to fascism."
To Tony: While I appreciate your efforts to praise me, I think it premature
to conclude that you and I have reached deep agreement on this issue. You
still clearly believe that "identical in every dimension to fascism" is a
fair characterization of the beliefs of a significant number of Baha'is, both
individually and at institutional levels. I most emphatically do not share
this belief. It paints the world in stark colors of black and white: there
are those who see the One True Meaning of the Baha'i Faith as a movement to
re-spiritualize liberal democracy without changing any of its basic theories
about the role of the individual in society, and there are those who have
other ideas, and can thus safely be characterized as fascists. This strikes
me as an oversimplification. There are conceptions of society which are both
*not* liberal-democratic and *not* fascist.
Regards,
Kevin
=END=
From: AGhosh@uh.edu
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 1996 10:41:31 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Jim's reforms
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Well, I am not so old a believer to make a list of successes and my experiece
is limited to Houston. But from what I can see whenever an effort has
died out it is due to:
1. Criticism: of the "on-fire" bahais of so-called "in-active" bahais
and 2. Criticism: of the "old-methods" against the "new-methods"
and 3. Criticism : of the "new-methods" against the "old-methods".
=END=
From: "Cary E. Reinstein"
To: "Talisman@indiana.edu" ,
"Member1700@aol.com"
Subject: RE: How to be an adult Baha'i?
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 08:33:43 -0800
My analogy was a little weak in the particulars. I was just trying to get
across a feeling of respect and appreciation and no more than that. 'member,
I'm just a technical writer. Uh oh, if any of you have used any software
manuals from my esteemed employer recently, my credibility as a clear
communicator will be utterly shot.
Hannah
=================================
"There are worlds out there where the sky is burning, the seas sleep, and
the rivers dream; people made of smoke, and cities made of song. Somewhere
there's danger; somewhere there's injustice, and somewhere else the tea is
getting cold! Come on Ace, we've got work to do!" -- Dr. Who #7
-------------------------
Ethernet (n): something used to catch the etherbunny
----------
From: Member1700@aol.com[SMTP:Member1700@aol.com]
Sent: Monday, 08 January, 1996 10:06 AM
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: How to be an adult Baha'i?
I certainly appreciated Hannah's analogy concerning parents/children, etc.
However, I feel that the challenge today is to figure out how to be a
Baha'i
and also be an adult, not a child.
The Baha'i community is full of capable and dynamic people who have
achieved much in their own right. To regard the community as a collection
of
children is to ignore that potential.
Tony
=END=
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 11:42:36 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: Robert Johnston
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Secret of Divine Civilization
On Tue, 9 Jan 1996, Robert Johnston wrote:
>
> (1) Humanist rationalism? Please, what exactly is humanist rationalism?
Just as in Christianity one has the anti-intellectual tradition of
Tertullian, rejecting reason and the autonomy of the individual, who is
reduced to nothingness before the Revelation, so in Islam Ibn Qudama and
others condemned the use of rational tools to approach religion (and even
the parts of the world already legislated in Islam by religion).
A competing current of thought celebrated the human and the use of
reason, seeing these things as gifts of God. Miskawayh and Abu Hayyan
at-Tawhidi are examples. Avicenna's philosophy held that a human being
by attaining insights into the universals could eventually become
"divinized" (muta'allih). Thus, studying philosophy and science was part
of a path toward divinization. This idea was continued by Mulla Sadra,
the 16th-17th century School of Isfahan and to some extent by the Shaykhis.
In 19th century Iran, Tertullianism reigned among the religious classes
and even many notables, rejecting reason and humanism in favor of the
awful all-reducing power of Quranic revelation. This view led to a
rejection of science and technology.
`Abdu'l-Baha in SDC is arguing for the goodness and autonomy of Reason.
This autonomy is not absolute, but delegated, insofar as individual human
reason is ultimately a reflection of the Universal Intellect. But the
point is that the intellect can legitimately invent and use the
telegraph. (Believe it or not, Shi`ite clergy attempted to forbid the
use of such technologies insofar as they were not mentioned in the Qur'an
and derived from a foreign unbelieving civilization.)
>
> (2) 'Abdu'l-Baha actually praises intellect AND wisdom:
>
> "Praise and thanksgiving be unto Providence that out of all the realities
> in existence He has chosen the reality of man and has honored it with
> intellect and wisdom, the two most luminous lights in either world."
"intellect" here is a translation of "da:nish," which would be better
translated "knowledge."
"wisdom" is "hu:sh," which means "understanding, judgment, intellect"
neither one has any particularly faith-related connotations, though it is
certainly true that `Abdu'l-Baha thought religion and Reason were or
could be in essential accord with one another (and here he differed from
many Shi`ite clerics).
One problem is that Mazieh Gail's translation is not very technical, and
so can be misleading for anyone who wants to use it for serious
philosophical purposes.
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 18:24:04 +0200 (IST)
From: Sean Molloy
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: Christopher Buck
Subject: Re: Shortening the Duration of War
Here is a quote about Baha'is hastening the Lesser Peace:
284. Baha'u'llah's Order is the Sovereign Remedy
"He cannot urge upon you all sufficiently...the importance of the Baha'is
realizing that direct, concentrated and efficiently carried out Baha'i work
is not only their supreme duty but the best way they can serve the interest
of humanity and hasten the day when at least the Lesser Peace will become
a reality. We must always bear in mind that Baha'u'llah's Order is the
sovereign remedy, and all other measures...inaugurated by the United
Nations or various governments, are in the nature of palliatives, however
sound and progressive they may be. We must concentrate on perfecting
our characters as individual Baha'is, and on maturing our still embryonic,
and as yet improperly understood World Order; on spreading the Message,
according to the provisions of the Divine Plan; and on building a
tightly knit world-wide Baha'i Community..."
(From letter written on behalf of the Guardian to the National Spiritual
Assembly of the United States and Canada, May 9, 1947: Principles of
Baha'i Administration, pp. 87-88)
This is taken from Helen Hornbys "Lights of Guidance".
Sean
=END=
From: usabtbdm@ibmmail.com
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 1996 12:08:01 EST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: talisman subscribe
Please subscribe me back on!
Thanks,
Sohrab Mogharrabi
usabtbdm@ibmmail.com
=END=
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 96 10:03:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Another in place of Baha'u'llah
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Derek wrote:
> Baha'u'llah in one passage warns the people of Iran if they
> deal with Him as they dealt with the Bab, Another was ready to
> take His place ...
I recall seeing this too, but not in English. Could someone
please provide citation for English translation?
many thanks, ahang.
=END=
From: AGhosh@uh.edu
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 1996 11:26:00 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: youth conference
To: talisman@indiana.edu
I attended the youth conference partly, partly I was teaching in the
Amatul-Baha Crusade in the Dallas Area. It was wonderful and second
only to my experience in World Congress just after my declaration.
However, if you want to channel the energies of youth into teaching.
the criticism of the institutions is not the place to start. They
do love their NSA and if this word has lost its meaning, may be the
Bahai Faith has.
Love
Arindam
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 96 06:42:41 PST
Subject: RE: Myth, metaphor, anti-intellectualism & gender.
To: talisman@indiana.edu, Gordon McFarlane
On Mon, 08 Jan 1996 18:21:04 -0700 Gordon McFarlane wrote:
Yahoooo!
Of course it all comes out as in a flood, Gordon, as if you've been
storing it up and so much is there. I hope you are writing a book.
I hope we hear more and in neater pieces, now that you've done the
all-at-once overview.
In myth and metaphor I find the unity of the world's religions. I
wish as much were an authoritative Bahai teaching. I seems like it
sort of is, at least it is an allowable interpretation.
Is there any scripture or interpretation to support?
More on the stuff about Tahirih. More on the figures which appeared
to the manifestations.
Thanks
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/09/96
Time: 06:42:42
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 12:59:01 -0600 (CST)
From: Saman Ahmadi
To: talisman
Subject: Iran
Dear Nima, Eric and All,
I once heard a theory that the reason for the U.S.'s more or less
hands off policy during the '79 revolution was that it was thought
the rising fundamentalist movement in Iran would stimulate similar
feelings in the bordering, and pre-dominantly Muslims, Russian
provinces and therefore would help destabilize the Soviet government - the
U.S. listening posts in northern Iran were a small price to pay.
regards,
sAmAn
=END=
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 14:47:53 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: tarjuman@umich.edu
Subject: Materials...
Dear friends--
Sorry to post again; forgot to ask in the last one. Is Browne's
_Materials for the Study of the Babi Religion_ still in print? And if so,
who's the publisher?
Nima
=END=
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 14:44:32 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: tarjuman@umich.edu
Subject: Nuqtatul-Kaf (Browne's translation)
Dear friends--
I'm looking for a copy of Browne's translation of Haji Mirza
Jani Kashani's _Nuqtatul-Kaf_ and having a hard time tracking one down.
Does anyone know which university library in North America has a copy I
can order through the unm i.l.l.? Also, if you can give full
bibliographic info, and an OCLC # if possible, I'd sure appreciate it. Thanx!
Sorry to those who are getting a multiple copy of this message.
Regards,
Nima (enjoying a dry 68 degrees farenheit New Mexico "Indian Summer")
=END=
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 96 15:30:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: dirty paper
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
I have a piece of writing in the hand of Quddus (the only extant
sheet to my knowledge) and need to "clean" it for publication.
The paper used by Him is a bit dark and when its copied the
background looks dirty. Someone in my office suggested scanning
the text and then cleaning "dirty" background. Can any of the
technical folks on Talisman explain what I need to do?
thanks for your help, ahang.
=END=
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 11:17:03 +1300 (NZDT)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: search machine
Talismans,
There is an excellent search machine at
http://sunsite.unc.edu/bahai-bin/true-seeker.pl
Robert
=END=
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 11:11:52 +1300 (NZDT)
To: Juan R Cole
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Secret of Divine Civilization
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Juan,
Behind my interrogation of the absence of a reference to the word
Mazieh Gail translated as wisdom is an awareness that in Greek and Baha'i
thought (linked through Islamic scholarship) human being are thought of as
being essentially ethical and intellectual agents. Aristotle wrote (see
partic. N. Ethics) that the human virtue (spirit, we might say) is
intellectual and ethical; and 'Abdu'l-Baha (in BWF, p. 283) said:
"Regarding the 'two wings' of the soul: These signify wings of ascent. One
is the wing of knowledge, the other of faith..." Using John's view that
religion (faith) is primarily a source of ethical teachings, the similarity
of the Greek and Baha'i viewpoints is more easily seen. "Wisdom" spins on
ethical considerations: "The essence of wisdom is the fear of God, the
dread of his scourge and the apprehension of His justice and decree."
I feel that your statement rather too easily ignores the TWO realities
mentioned by 'Abdu'l-Baha. Obviously I have no problem with Mazieh Gail's
viewpoint. At the very least she has supplied "something"! ;-}
The Greek conception of rationality incorporates both realities.
Best wishes,
Robert.
=END=
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 96 16:12:27 CST
From: Milissa
Subject: Re: Nuqtatul-Kaf (Browne's translation)
To: Sadra
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Hi Nima Sadra--
Wanted to let you know that the KSU library owns a copy of this book,
which I have borrowed in the past. Your library should have no problem
borrowing it for you through Interlibrary Services!
Your friend,
Milissa
mboyer@ukanvm.cc.ukans.edu
=END=
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 11:35:42 +1300 (NZDT)
To: "Steven Kolins" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: Explaining banshee
Dear Quanta,
I do not carry in my heart any desire to turn an innocent
mistake centering on a desire on my part of correct my error and to
acknowledge your helpfulness in this into a colourful display of public
acrimony.
I hereby tell the WHOLE UNIVERSE that I am sorry I upset you.
Very sorry ;-}
Best wishes to Ruth.
In friendship,
Robert.
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 96 10:45:05 PST
Subject: humility, forgiveness, etc.
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: 748-9178@mcimail.com, Jim Blake <0006596916@mcimail.com>,
wog@poseidon.usnus.abb.com
This is a long posting. I'm trying to work out personal issues, spiritual
issues, Talisman issues and the anwers to all the world's problems. So, to
those of you who bear with me, in advance I thank you.
I'm going to talk about humility, how it connects to forgiveness, how they
both connect to spirituality, what that connection tells me about the nature
of spiritual issues, and what all of that tells me about my relationship
with certain of the friends, and also about some of the Talismanic
complaints about the institutions.
One day, when my daughter was 11 and sick and tired of hearing me explain
how she should behave, she declared her room off limits to me and to remind
me to stay out, she put up a sign, "No adults Aloud." It was a double
message.
As a new Bahai, I've run into more experienced Bahai's tell me that I was
not allowed to protest against their action in "that tone of voice."
Therefore, I've welcomed all the Talisman protests about not being allowed
to protest, not being allowed to question the actions of the institutions,
and at not being allowed to think and speak critically without fear of
censure or punishment.
Now I want to argue for the other side. I know that, when things don't go my
way and I don't get what I want, in my own remarkably adult, articulate,
witty and sophisticated mature style, I can throw a hell of a trantrum.
Although I hate admitting it.
But this is what I was talking about in my last posting when I talked about
the double humiliation of feeling wronged and then being wrong for making
for a fuss. I should know better. After all, if you are being wronged, why
feel humiliated, isn't it enough to just feel wronged?
It's a pride thing. It's a guy thing.Humiliation seems to be a deep part of
the program to further my spiritual development, the unpleasant way I seem
best to aquire humility.
"You can't "do" humility," is what Jame Hillman said, meaning that you
couldn't just decide to be humble, that it was a deeper quality than that.
But I'm still trying to find the middle way to think about this. Both sides
seem to feel wronged. So maybe the Dialogue Team did get out of line. (I'm
just saying this for the sake of making another point, okay? ) And maybe
the letter to the NSA didn't show quite the degree of love, honor and
respect the house was due. And maybe in my pain I have been really But
But.But.
Who am I to expect ordinary wronged ones to act like The Most Wronged One?
I think a lot about forgiveness. I whine that there isn't enough in my
world. And rarely do I acknowledge that I could be one of the responsible
for increasing the level of forgiveness in my corner of the world, whatever
I think forgiveness is.
I think, forgiveness is what keeps people from over-correcting. That's an
engineering definition, as in, "this is a very forgiving car to drive."
Forgiveness means you don't have to worry about occassionally over-reacting.
It means you can make a lot of little mistakes and still things go smoothly.
It is something that dampens your sensitivity, without dulling your
sensitivity.
Forgiveness works like shock absorbers do in a car. Stick with me now, this
metaphor is not as far fetched as you think and not as mechanical either.
There are subtleties I'm trying to articulate. The main one is that there
is a multi-level reality to forgiveness. Forgiveness is something that
happens at a higher level than ordinary responsiveness.
In a car, your suspension system works on two levels. The first level is
the springs. Springs give you something in between the wheels and the frame.
That way, when you hit a bump the wheels give, the axle doesn't break.The
springs absorb the shock.
Why then do you need something called "shock absorbers"? It is because, in
the two level system the springs absorb the shock to the wheels and the
shock absorbers absorb the shock to the springs. If your car doesn't
have shock absorbers, every time you hit a bump the car sproings uuuup and
then dooown, then uuup and dooown, then uup and doown and finally up and
down -- and all the while it is slightly out of control.This additional
layer of responsiveness smooths everything out.
So if you say, it has a very forgiving suspension system it means that it
handles a lot of big bumps without a lot of perturbance.
In engineering, a systen that is "forgiving" is one that corrects itself
without over-correcting.
Go one more metaphor with me so I can show you this double level thing. An
automatic pilot automatically turns on whenever you are 10 degrees off
course. So if you drift off course to the left, the pilot turns the wheel
and holds it turned until you are ten degrees off to the right at which time
the pilot corrects in the other direction and you go back and forth, never
really on course, always correcting and then over-correcting your previous
error. This is an unforgiving auto-pilot. To built a forgiving one, you'd
need a second system to monitor the first and when the second system sees
the first one osccilating, it slows down the correcting actions of the first
system.
That's how forgiveness works. Bam! you get hit. Youch! you respond.
But you don't hit back and you don't run. Your forgiveness allows you
to do two things, to react, but also to do more than just react.
So now I'll repeat what I said a few paragraphs earlier. Forgiveness means
you don't have to worry about occassionally over-reacting. It means you can
make a lot of little mistakes and still things go smoothly. It is something
that dampens your sensitivity, without dulling your sensitivity.
And now, back to the main theme. I do expect the institutions to be more
forgiving than the rest of us folks. My protest is that occassionally I
don't think they are forgiving enough. And when they are not forgiving
enough, I suspect not enough humility. And further, I expect the infallible
ones to be perfectly forgiving.
And finally, humility and forgiveness do co-exist at this second level. And
I suspect that this second level (wheverever it is) is where spirituality
exists relative to worldly and political matters, which I would put at the
first level.
And so all this is a way for me to work out my position on The Bahai Who
Wronged Me, and the Bahai Institutions whom my friends say wronged them.
Where I sympathize with Steve, Tony, Juan and others who continue to bring
out this wrongs associated with the Encyclopedia, the letter to the NSA,
Dialogue and so on,-- and where I sympathize with me -- is that I agree that
all of us were probably entitled to treatment that carried more humility,
forbearance, tolerance, resiliance, and forgiveness. And where I don't
sympathize is where I feel that I ( And I can only speak for myself here)
also needed to demonstrate more humility, sympathy, forbearance, tolerance,
resiliance and, yes, forgiveness.
Feedback will be appreciated.
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/08/96
Time: 19:36:30
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 15:44:25 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Saman Ahmadi
Cc: talisman
Subject: Re: Iran
> I once heard a theory that the reason for the U.S.'s more or less
> hands off policy during the '79 revolution was that it was thought
> the rising fundamentalist movement in Iran would stimulate similar
> feelings in the bordering, and pre-dominantly Muslims, Russian
> provinces and therefore would help destabilize the Soviet government - the
> U.S. listening posts in northern Iran were a small price to pay.
Yes, and this was one among many reasons why the Soviets invaded
Afghanistan at the end of 1979 -- a bad decision and the beginning of the
end for the Soviet empire.
Regards,
Nima
=END=
From: AGhosh@uh.edu
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 1996 17:13:36 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re:resurrection and renewal
To: talisman@indiana.edu
regarding this book I wanted to add an interesting parallel. The Guardian
recommended the use of Koran by Sale for gaining a good understanding of
Islam. Now Sale's book as I can see treats Muhammad almost as an "impostor".
Still it did not deter the Guardian from using its excellent historical
analysis. Abbas's book is almost reverent compared to Sale's.
Love
Arindam
=END=
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 16:08:05 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Milissa
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Nuqtatul-Kaf (Browne's translation)
Milissa,
I don't think Browne's _Materials..._ is the same as his translation of
_Nuqtatul-Kaf_, they're separate works as far as I know. Browne's
_Nuqtatul-Kaf_ is a spurious early history of the Babi movement, the text
of which was interpolated by the Azalis. Are you sure it's in _Materials.._?
Nima
=END=
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 96 16:24:39 CST
From: MBOYER%UKANVM.BITNET@cmsa.Berkeley.EDU
Subject: Re: Nuqtatul-Kaf (Browne's translation)
To: Sadra
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Hello again Nima--
sorry I forgot to tell you the bib info on Browne's book!
the original 1918 edition is OCLC # 253540
a reprint was made in 1961 OCLC # 5253907
You can tell your librarian that the Kansas State Library's code is: KKS
OCLC listed several other libraries, but I do know that K-State will lend
their copy out, while I don't know about the others.
Happy reading and hope this helped!
Milissa Boyer
mboyer@ukanvm.cc.ukans.edu
=END=
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 17:33:26 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: `aql/intellect
Juan: If Baha'u'llah is describing Mirza Husayn Khan Mushir al-Dawlah as
"a`qal az sa'irin," I think this tells you that "zuhur-i `aql dar kull"
needs to be understood as political prudence rather than some more
metaphysical concept of "reason" or "intellect."
john walbridge
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 96 09:42:29 PST
Subject: FW: Quddus as 3rd
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Holy Moly! This is gorgeous. What does the line about America mean?
On Mon, 08 Jan 1996 23:56:33 +0100 (MET) Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
wrote:
>Re Three Manifestations:
>this bit from Tablets of `Abdu'l-Baha 678-10 may be relevant.
>
>
>O thou who art attracted by the Fragrances of God!
>
> Give thanks unto God for having revealed unto thee,
>in visions, the mysteries of His Kingdom and for having
>strengthened thee to attain certain revelations which
>show thine utmost attraction and constancy unto this
>great Cause.
> Verily, the three birds are the three holy souls. The
>one on the right is His Holiness the great Bab, the one
>on the left is His Honor the Khudoos, the glorious
>soul, and the great bird in the middle is the Greatest
>Name. The light shining from the Supreme Horizon
>is the Beauty of El-Abha. These birds descended from
>an infinite height and the nearer they came to earth the
>more their majesty and glory became manifest. All nations
>were promised by a sure promise and were awaiting
>with anxiety and longing the coming of the Promised
>One. The two birds accompanying the great bird in
>the center signifies that the Bab and His Honor the
>Khudoos were both under the wings of the Greatest
>name. As those birds descended and their shadows extended
>vertically over the expectants, as the sun approacheth
>the zenith at noontide, at this time thou hast
>seen a majestic being in the form of man upon the back
>of the huge bird in the center. This person in the
>human form is the "divine station" mentioned in the
>Bible: "Let us make man in our image after our likeness."
>And the divine lights were reflected from the
>reality of the Greatest Name. Although this station
>is far from the minds and understandings, yet its lights
>are apparent, its rays reflected and its brilliancy manifested
>throughout the universe.
> The white garments signify holy dignity and a station
>sanctified from color, i.e., free from the universal
>conditions and material qualities. That luminous countenance,
>manifested in beauty, signifieth that the divine
>lights shone forth from the human form, which were
>reflected and descended upon thee, dazzling the eyes of
>those who were perceiving it as the sun dazzles the
>eyes of those who try to look upon it. That divine form
>manifested itself in America and entered the great
>Temple which shall soon be constructed therein.
>
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/09/96
Time: 09:42:30
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A. Einstein
=END=
Date: 9 Jan 96 15:29:02 U
From: "Dan Orey"
Subject: Results- 1st Interplanetary
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: aenguate@uvalle.edu.gt, sclay@usaid.gov, SKDapoz@INDYVAX.IUPUI.EDU,
cfarhoum@osf1.gmu.edu, SFotos@eworld.com, rfisher@uvalle.edu.gt,
kcwb@aol.com, sharaf9@aol.com, will.sutter@sandbox.telepath.com
GatorMail-Q Results: 1st Interplanetary Auction
re: 1st Interplanetary Auction / Guatemala Girl's Project
Dear Talisfriends -
Please accept my apologies for the tardiness in sharing news re:Talisman's 1st
Interplanetary Auction. The mail moves slow and I was able to obtain a couple
of Greatest Names. First the news, then the details:
1 - I received a number of Greatest Names so anyone offering greater than 70.00
US can have one.
2 - there were eight individuals in three countries who responded with a total
of $906.00 US being pledged.This comes out to almost 7 months of funding, and
will really help. If you folks who pledged will contact me I will share with
you the way to - safely - send funds. And I can send you your BRILLIANTLY
COLORFUL Greatest Name!
3 - If others care to donate to the Girls Literacy Project in Highland Maya
Guatemala you may send me an e-mail and I will gladly share the stats on how to
do so.
I am really proud of our effort, and I can safely assume that the good folks in
Central America will be most gratified, as well as extremely grateful to all of
you who helped-out! This certainly shows that Talisman's deeds are commensurate
to our words!
In loving service - Daniel Orey (orey@csus.edu)
=END=
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 18:43:05 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: Sadra
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu, tarjuman@umich.edu
Subject: Re: Nuqtatul-Kaf (Browne's translation)
Browne did not translate Nuqtatu'l-Kaf, although I think there is a list
of divergences in his translation of Tarikh-i-Jadid.
john walbridge
On Tue, 9 Jan 1996, Sadra wrote:
> Dear friends--
>
> I'm looking for a copy of Browne's translation of Haji Mirza
> Jani Kashani's _Nuqtatul-Kaf_ and having a hard time tracking one down.
> Does anyone know which university library in North America has a copy I
> can order through the unm i.l.l.? Also, if you can give full
> bibliographic info, and an OCLC # if possible, I'd sure appreciate it. Thanx!
>
> Sorry to those who are getting a multiple copy of this message.
>
> Regards,
> Nima (enjoying a dry 68 degrees farenheit New Mexico "Indian Summer")
>
=END=
From: Alethinos@aol.com
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 19:06:08 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Jim's reforms
Dear Mr. G:
You are not reading my posts. You are reacting to problems that occurred in
Houston and assume that I am in the same line as the *troublemakers*. I
suggest a few more questions and a closer reading of the posts.
jim harrison
Alethinos@ao.com
=END=
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 19:02:42 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: jwalbrid
Cc: talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Re: `aql/intellect
John-jan:
There are two places where Baha'u'llah relates the advent of
al-`aql/intellect to the end of royal absolutism. The first is the
Tablet of Salman, Akka, circa 1868; the other is an untitled Tablet of
the late Akka period. The Tablet of Salman speaks of the end of the
monarchies as a sign of the advent of "intellect." The second speaks of
actual present advent of intellect as a grounds upon which royal
absolutism should be tossed in the dustbin of history. In both
instances, al-`aql has almost apocalyptic and abstract overtones. I
don't think the oral comment to Samandari (which may or may not be
reported in exact words) can define the entire semantic field here.
cheers Juan
On Tue, 9 Jan 1996, jwalbrid wrote:
> Juan: If Baha'u'llah is describing Mirza Husayn Khan Mushir al-Dawlah as
> "a`qal az sa'irin," I think this tells you that "zuhur-i `aql dar kull"
> needs to be understood as political prudence rather than some more
> metaphysical concept of "reason" or "intellect."
>
> john walbridge
>
>
=END=
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 16:06:45 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: nightbrd@humboldt1.com (Doug Myers)
Subject: Re: Jim's reforms
AGhosh@uh.edu writes:
>Well, I am not so old a believer to make a list of successes and my experiece
>is limited to Houston. But from what I can see whenever an effort has
>died out it is due to:
>1. Criticism: of the "on-fire" bahais of so-called "in-active" bahais
>and 2. Criticism: of the "old-methods" against the "new-methods"
>and 3. Criticism : of the "new-methods" against the "old-methods".
>
In other words,
Disunity?
Doug Myers
nightbrd@humboldt1.com
"Nothing survives but the way we live our lives." JB
=END=
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 17:15:51 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: frlw@midway.uchicago.edu, Masumian@mail.utexas.edu,
Noorbakhsh.Monzavi@hibo.no
Subject: Reuters 1/9/96 (fwd)
> 'IRAN' STORIES
>Transmission date: 96/01/09
> 1. 15:27 RAFSANJANI AIDE LAUNCHES MODERATE IRAN WEEKLY
> 2. 13:46 IRAN SENDS CONDOLENCES ON MITTERRAND'S DEATH
> 3. 12:40 IRAN FOREIGN MINISTER IN AFGHAN TALKS IN PAKISTAN
> 4. 10:54 U.N. ENVOY EXAMINES FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION IN IRAN
> 5. 07:43 IRAN FOREIGN MINISTER LEAVES FOR PAKISTAN
> 6. 04:44 KHARTOUM TRADE FAIR REOPENS AFTER SEVEN YEARS
>
>=START= XMT: 15:27 Tue Jan 09 EXP: 5 :00 Fri Jan 12
>
>
> Rafsanjani aide launches moderate Iran weekly
> TEHRAN, Jan 9 (Reuter) - A close aide of Iranian President Akbar Hashemi
>Rafsanjani has launched a weekly magazine critical of parliament's conservative
>majority ahead of Iran's general elections in March.
> In its first issue published this week, the magazine Bahman blasted Islamic
>conservatives who control parliament for seeing ``their election rivals as
>opponents of the revolution, of the state and of any religious government.''
> ``Either we take a such a narrow view...and so every day more people get
>off the train of revolution...Or we could adopt a view based on common aspects
>so that all groups and individuals could...participate,'' wrote Bahman director
>Ataollah Mohajerani, who is vice-president for parliamentary and legal affairs.
> Bahman, named after the Iranian month when the February 1979 Islamic
>revolution took place, also criticised tough new rules guiding book publishing
>adopted a few months ago after hardliners blasted earlier regulations as too
>lenient.
> It published a caricature showing a man holding a book up as a shield
>against oncoming arrows in one hand and throwing his pen in retaliation.
> Mohajerani, 41, has been a close aide of Rafsanjani and a long-time
>contributor to the daily Ettelaat. He caused an upproar in 1990 by calling in
>his column for direct talks with the United States and had to take back his
>proposal.
> Elections to the 270-seat Majlis, or parliament will be held on March 8.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 13:46 Tue Jan 09 EXP: 3 :00 Fri Jan 12
>
>
> Iran sends condolences on Mitterrand's death
> NICOSIA, Jan 9 (Reuter) - Iran has offered condolences to France over the
>death of Francois Mitterrand, during whose presidency ties between the two
>countries were once broken.
> President Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani sent a message to French President
>Jacques Chirac saying: ``While expressing condolences, we wish prosperity and
>success to the friendly nation of France.''
> ``We stress our desire to consolidate cooperation between the two
>countries,'' added the message, quoted by Iranian television, monitored by the
>British Broadcasting Corporation (BBC).
> In 1987 ties between Tehran and Paris were broken for almost a year over a
>spate of bombings in France directed against French support for Iraq in its
>1980-1988 war with Iran.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 12:40 Tue Jan 09 EXP: 2 :00 Fri Jan 12
>
>
> Iran foreign minister in Afghan talks in Pakistan
> (Adds talks in Pakistan, changes dateline)
> ISLAMABAD, Jan 9 (Reuter) - Iranian Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Velayati
>held talks with Pakistani officials on the Afghan conflict on Tuesday soon
>after arriving for a two-day visit, Pakistani officials said.
> They said Velayati and Pakistani Foreign Minister Assef Ahmad Ali also
>discussed bilateral relations and the regional situation.
> No details of the talks were immediately available.
> Earlier, the state-run Tehran radio said Velayati and Pakistani officials
>would also review joint investment projects such as a gas pipeline between the
>two countries.
> Tehran has been concerned about the rise of Afghanistan's Taleban Islamic
>militia that seeks to overthrow President Burhanuddin Rabbani.
> Iranian media have accused Pakistan of setting up the militia and Saudi
>Arabia of funding it. Both countries deny the charges.
> The Taleban accuses Iran of backing Rabbani and said last week that it had
>rejected a Tehran offer for mediation. Tehran also denies the charge.
> Velayati will go on to Bombay on Thursday for three days of talks with
>Indian businessmen and officials.
> His visit to Islamabad follows one by Iran's deputy foreign minister
>Alauddin Borojardi last month for talks both sides said were aimed at evolving
>a common approach to help bring peace to Afghanistan.
> Both Pakistan and Iran helped Afghan mujahideen guerrillas in their war to
>end Soviet occupation in the 1980s and played host to about five million war
>refugees.
> Islamabad has often expressed doubts about the legitimacy of President
>Rabbani after he disregarded U.N. deadlines to hand over power to a neutral
>council last year and while most of the country is ruled by his opponents.
> But Borojardi said last month Tehran recognised Rabbani's government as
>legitimate while it represented Afghanistan at the United Nations and the
>Organisation of Islamic Conference.
> The Taleban militia has been besieging Kabul since October and has refused
>to make peace with Rabbani until he agrees to step down.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 10:54 Tue Jan 09 EXP: 0 :00 Fri Jan 12
>
>
> U.N. envoy examines freedom of expression in Iran
> By Sharif Imam Jomeh
> TEHRAN, Jan 9 (Reuter) - A U.N. human rights envoy is visiting Iran to
>chart the country's respect for freedom of expression, Iranian media and
>diplomats said on Tuesday.
> State-run Tehran radio said Abid Hussain, United Nations Human Rights
>Commission's special rapporteur on freedom of opinion and expression, met
>Iran's judiciary head Ayatollah Mohammad Yazdi who said Western human rights
>organisations should not use their own standards to judge other states.
> ``Western countries and human rights organisations cannot use their
>own...norms to evaluate all nations without considering their cultures, values,
>and intellectual foundations,'' Yazdi was quoted by the radio as telling
>Hussain.
> He also said the rise in the number of Iranian publications after the 1979
>Islamic revolution was proof Iran respected freedom of expression but
>underlined the importance of expressing the right opinion.
> ``Islam does not put limitations on...individuals expressing correct
>opinions,'' added Yazdi.
> Iran has been repeatedly criticised by international human rights bodies
>and Western journalists organisations for violating freedom of expression and
>press liberty.
> Hussain told Reuters he would try to wrap up his visit by Thursday but
>declined to give further details about his mission.
> Diplomats said Hussain, who is from India, arrived in Tehran at the weekend
>and has also been meeting writers, journalists and opposition figures.
> Dariush Foruhar, an outspoken critic of the government and leader of the
>small secular Iran Nation Party, told Reuters he was scheduled to meet Hussein
>later on Tuesday.
> The newspaper Akhbar said Hussain met Iranian Foreign Minister Ali Akbar
>Velayati on Monday.
> It was the second visit by a U.N. envoy since one in 1991 by Salvadorean
>jurist Reynaldo Galindo Pohl, the Commission's former special representative on
>Iran who criticised human rights violations in the Islamic republic.
> Abdelfattah Amor of Tunisia, the Commission's special rapporteur on
>religious intolerance, visited Iran in December after Tehran said it no longer
>objected to such visits as long as the envoys' reports reflected the truth.
> Diplomats said Maurice Copithorne of Canada, who replaced Galindo Pohl last
>year, has not yet received an invitation from Iran to visit the country.
> The Geneva-based Commission's investigators, some of whom examine broad
>themes and others who concentrate on individual countries, have to be invited
>by governments before they can make any trips.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 07:43 Tue Jan 09 EXP: 7 :00 Fri Jan 12
>
>
> Iran foreign minister leaves for Pakistan
> TEHRAN, Jan 9 (Reuter) - Iranian Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Velayati left
>on Tuesday for a two-day visit to Pakistan to discuss the Afghan conflict,
>state-run Tehran radio said.
> It said Velayati would meet Pakistani officials to review joint investment
>projects such as a gas pipeline between the two countries.
> Tehran has been concerned about the rise of the Taleban Islamic militia in
>Afghanistan. Iranian media have accused Pakistan of setting up the militia and
>Saudi Arabia of funding it.
> Velayati will go on to Bombay on Thursday for three days of talks with
>Indian businessmen and officials.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 04:44 Tue Jan 09 EXP: 4 :00 Fri Jan 12
>
>
> Khartoum trade fair reopens after seven years
> KHARTOUM, Jan 9 (Reuter) - Khartoum's international trade fair has reopened
>after a gap of seven years, with 120 local companies and 100 foreign firms from
>20 countries taking part.
> The countries include Iran, Pakistan, Jordan and Kenya and the goods on
>display include vehicles, garments and foodstuffs.
> Speaking at the inauguration by President Omar Hassan al-Bashir on Monday,
>Finance Minister Abdalla Hassan Ahmad said the fair was not only a commercial
>gathering but ``a reflection of the depth of relations between the
>participating countries.''
> The minister, quoted in the government newspaper al-Sudan al-Hadith on
>Tuesday, said it showed Khartoum had broken out of the siege imposed by Western
>countries opposed to Sudan's pro-Islamist government.
> The fair will last until January 22.
>
>=END=
>
>
=END=
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 1996 17:35:36 -0700
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: Freefall ( Myth, metaphor,etc.)
Phil said:
>Yahoooo!
>Of course it all comes out as in a flood, Gordon, as if you've been
>storing it up and so much is there.
Gord: (not stored exactly, just dammed and damned by skeptical looks and
"This is all quite intriguing, but let's focus on more important and urgent
administrative matters" type remarks. I'm grateful to Talisman for
allowing me to release some water from the headpond.)
>I hope you are writing a book.
>I hope we hear more and in neater pieces,
Gord: "Oh, for the wonder that bubbles into my soul,
I would be a good fountain, a good well-head,
Would blur no whisper, spoil no expression."
Alas, it is an odd book indeed, certainy not a "neat piece" or a
scholarly one.
But oh ye men of Talisman - ponder this:
I remember reading a passage in the Dawnbreakers prior to my
enrollment in the Faith, where, Siyyid Kazim asked Shayk Ahmad - "What is
the word that the Qaim shall utter, that shall put the Kings and rulers to
flight?" Shayk Amhad answered (I paraphrase) "If that word will put the
Kings and rulers to flight - what makes you think you can bear to hear it."
I also noted in the footnotes that Shayk Ahmad and Siyyid Kazim applied
Kabbalistic interpretations to the Quranic writings regarding the Qaim. Is
that correct?
Baha'u'llah reveals that word: "The He has now been made manifest in
the I". Of course this means Baha'u'llah is the bearer of the Revelation
of God. But, metaphorically, could it also mean that the "Divine Name" has
been restored? I know nothing of Hebrew. Can any one here tell me if there
is a connection between the Hebrew letter "Vau" and the "I", or if the
statement that "the manifestation of the He final on earth would be in
espousal with Vau, but there is a separation in the present order until
that which now hinders shall be taken out of the way", relates in any way to
"The He has now been made manifest in the I"
PLEASE - SOMEONE HELP ME ON THIS - I'M IN OVER MY HEAD.
In view of the two quotes I posted previously:
1. "Though it be forbidden to separate the Heavenly Bride and Bridegroom,
even in thought, it is this which has come to pass by reason of the
sufferings of Israel, with who Shekinah was destined to endure even from the
beginning. . . . the Holy One will remember Israel, meaning he will
remember his covenant, which is the Shekinah" (Waite)
2. "The Word has indeed become man. But not until the Word becomes woman,
will the world be saved."
and, in view of the Hidden word which states
"The mystic and wonderous Bride, hidden ere this beneath the veiling
of utterance, hath now, by the grace of God and His divine favour, been made
manifest even as the resplendent light shed by the beauty of the Beloved. I
bear witness, O friends! that the favor is complete, the argument fulfilled,
the proof manifest and the evidence established. Let it now be seen what
your endeavors in the path of detachment will reveal. In this wise hath the
divine favor been fully vouchsafed unto you and unto them that are in heaven
and on earth. All praise to God, the Lord of All Worlds. (Hidden Words)
And the audacious statement attributed to Tahirih, "I am the word which the
Qaim shall utter." Spoken at the conference at Badasht which appears to have
been orchestrated by Baha'u'llah and the most significant event of which was
Tahirih's appearance and the consequent bruhaha it elicited.
And the dual use of the title "Qurratu'l-'ayn" in some of the writings,
And the comment and warning by Abd'u'l Baha which preceeds the "Tablet of
the Holy Mariner". Why does Abd'u'l Baha preface this most difficult and
Mystical of tablets the way he does, and yet offer so little explanation.
It is an ever unfolding metaphor.
In the Tablet of the Holy Mariner we read that the "The maid of heaven
looked out from her exalted chamber . . . And with her brow signed to the
Celestial Concourse . . . Flooding with the light of her countenance the
heaven and the earth. . . . And as the radiance of her beauty shone upon
the people of dust, . . . All beings were shaken in their mortal graves . .
. She then raised a call which no ear through all eternity hath ever heard,
And thus proclaimed: "By the Lord! He whose heart hath not the fragrance of
the love of the exalted and glorious Arabian Youth, Can in no wise ascend
unto the glory of the highest heaven.
She summons one of her handmaidens and commands her to "Descend into
space from the mansions of eternity" and "turn unto that which they have
concealed in the inmost of their hearts".
She says . . . "Should thou inhale the perfume of the robe from the
Youth that hath been hidden within the tabernacle of light by reason of that
which the hands of the wicked have wrought, . . Raise a cry within thyself
that ALL the inmates of the chambers of Paradise that are the embodiments of
the eternal wealth may understand and hearken.
Alas, when the favoured damsel descends, in all her adorning, to
inhale the fragrance of faithfulness - she finds if not, from these "idle
claimants".
What are we to make of this? How are we to "study" it? by
contextualizing it?
I've reached one conclusion (at least for the time being) after
reading this numerous times and allowing the metaphor to unfold. That is -
we'd better "feminize" our scholarship.
Metaphor to metapor; mystery to mystery; world without end, amen.
Another talismanian who responded to me privately wrote;
"How about this: Abdu'l-Baha refers to Adam as a Manifestation. The
knowledge of good and evil comes from the Revelation. Eve gave the fruit of
this tree to Adam. Isn't this similar to the heavenly maiden coming to
Baha'u'llah in the Siya-Chal?
It makes sense to me.
LBG's and Best wishes
Gord.
---
Gordon McFarlane e-mail: MCFARLANE@upanet.uleth.ca
Public Access Internet
The University of Lethbridge
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 16:47:20 PST8PDT
Subject: (Baha'i in S. Africa, 2nd hand) Re: differentiation of lifewor
Greetings Blessed Ones,
> Date sent: Sat, 6 Jan 1996 13:24:11 -0500 (EST)
> From: Juan R Cole
> To: talisman@indiana.edu
> Subject: differentiation of lifeworlds
...snip
> Talisman has been hard to turn into anything other than a set of
> discontinuous conversations. But maybe it would benefit if the old
> Dialogue columnists took on specific responsibilities to occasionally
> post in their specialties short essays. The Baha'i Faith and the
> environment. The Baha'i Faith in post-apartheid South Africa.
...
Juan: Dude! Unbelievably awesome post as usual.
Some local Baha'is went on a trip to S.Africa last year that was
organized as a Baha'i Women's Travel Teaching project. I have
been to a couple of informal debriefings where the local Baha'is
showed their videos and networked with Baha'is and other friends.
They are open to *constructive* criticism about Baha'i stuff,
and have been amongst the numerous leading legitimizer-facilitators
of local/regional racism healing workshops. One does
administration in the remedial public high schools in the
disadvantaged community. She said (paraphrase) that with the
exception of 1 energetic and really cool "native" NSA member, the
S. African national community is dominated by whites and affluent
persian refugees that are scared shitless about initiating teaching
of "diverse peoples". They were so freaked out by aparthied for so
long, that they can't make any sort of major change now that it is
starting to go away.
The Women's Travel Teaching project (mostly African American
women) was the FIRST travel teaching project ever in S. Africa.
She said in spite of repeated requests by project members to get
into the country, their chaperons tried to trap them in endless
non-teaching activities and socializing for weeks, and that
finally the project participants had to tell the national
chaperons "no more tadik, we are going to go see the people".
They took off escorted by the 1 native NSA member, and had some
amazing experiences. The CCs supposedly later chastized the
S. African admin for not suporting the project better.
In the country, the hostility of tribe against tribe was a real
eye opener, as was the general chaos, including politics. She
had a slightly naive notion before she went that S. Africa was
going to be a post-apartheid quasi-utopia and that some sort of
black solidarity would suffuse the project. Even though they
went to public squares and schools to sing Baha'i songs and talk
about the Faith, they were astounded by the emotional withdrawal
of *all* the people, white or black. The idea of empowered black
women publicly and courageously giving praise and talking about
a popular global message of spirituality and hope was simply
alien and *stunned* the polite people in various venues.
I got the feeling that as far as general society goes, no one
there expects anything to work in the end, apartheid or no. They
say the youth movement is key, Biko's loss appears to be so very
huge, and the less said about Winnie the better even though
people will *have* to talk about her.
God help us for not starting to get on with building a better
world sooner than we have.
Any contacts regarding the feasibility of making fund contributions
for next year's project expenses should probably be directed to
the LSA of Citrus Heights, California.
If you want me to get more info about the project, let me know.
EP
ps, any corrections are appreciated.
=END=
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 96 19:08:28
From: "Stockman, Robert"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Maturity of House of Justice
I think I agree with Sen here; it depends on how one defines
"maturity." Since the word implies the House at some point was
"immature," which could be misunderstood, I'm not sure I like the
word. But I think the House's powers have clearly evolved. Here are
some ways:
1. Experience. Any body gains experience and institutional memory
over time. This is especially important to remember when one
considers there was not much transition when the House was
established, or at least less transition than if the Guardian had
lived to serve on the House.
2. Increased size of the staff. Mr. Nakhjavani is fond of saying
when he was elected to the House of Justice the Statistics Department
was one drawer in his filing cabinet and the Research Department was
another drawer. Now the House has a staff of 500. Obviously it can
do a lot more with that much more information and resources at its
fingertips. Improved communication with the world also helps a lot
too.
3. Consider the House's communications since 1963. In 1968 they
issued a compilation of Baha'u'llah's messages to the kings. In 1978
or so, they issued a compilation of Shoghi Effendi's messages in *Call
to the Nations.* Both times they asked the Baha'i world to distribute
these compilatins widely. In 1986 they issued the Peace
Statement--the first statement to the world that the House itself
wrote--and asked that it be distributed. This seems to suggest
growing confidence by the House in its own ability to speak. The
House, as it were, is finding its voice. The messages it has been
producing since 1980--among them the Social and Economic Development
message and the Individual Rights and Freedoms message--are far more
complex and challenging than anything it produced earlier, with the
possible exception of the Constitution.
As for the metaphor "body of Christ," I personally would apply it to
the entire Administrative Order, not to the House. Baha'is partake in
this "body of Baha'u'llah" every Ridvan when they elect. This makes
elections the "Baha'i eucharist." Considering that elections can
be--should be--a mystic act, this strikes me as appropriate.
-- Rob Stockman
=END=
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 18:38:00 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Talisman
Subject: The Guardian re: Hitler
Hello, dear ones.
Recently one of the friends pointed out that in a letter dated 11 February
1934 written to a member of the NSA of Germany, the Guardian's secretary
wrote on his behalf:
"There is nothing more contrary to the spirit of the
Cause than open rebellion against the governmental authorities of
a country, specially if they do not interfere in and do not
oppose the inner and sacred beliefs and religious convictions of
the individual. And there is every reason to believe that the
present regime in Germany which has thus far refused to trample
upon the domain of individual conscience in all matters
pertaining to religion will never encroach upon it in the near
future, unless some unforeseen and unexpected changes take place.
And this seems to be doubtful at present."
(The Light of Divine Guidance, Vol. I, p. 54)
This statement seems to support the view that the Guardian did not
appreciate the significance of the threat the German government posed to
the German Baha'i community. That is, that despite Shoghi Effendi's
assertion that he was "infallible in the protection of the Cause," he
badly missed the mark -- on no less a matter than the rise of Hitler!
I have read the entire letter in question (it is posted separately) and I
want to point out the following.
1. The letter is addressed to a member of the German NSA, and as the
Guardian's secretary states at the outset, not only to the entire
NSA, but "through them to all the followers of the Faith in
Germany." The Guardian directed and anticipated widespread
distribution of this letter. It would not have been unreasonable
for him to assume that the German government would itself read
the letter.
2. The stated purpose of the letter is "to guide our German
National Assembly in their efforts to safeguard ... the
interests of the Faith..." The purpose of the letter, by
its terms, was to protect the Faith from a threat the Guardian
perceived.
3. I think that the letter, taken as a whole indicates that the
Guardian was extremely concerned about the future of the German
Baha'i community. The very date of the Guardian's letter indicates
the gravity of the situation. The letter is dated barely 11 days
after the original letter from the German NSA member. It is typical
to find that the Guardian's responses were not sent for weeks, even
months after an inquiry. Here, he felt this matter required
his immediate attention. An 11-day turnaround, including transit
from Germany to Haifa in 1934, was swift.
4. If the Guardian wasn't worried, why would he send a letter
to the entire German Baha'i community guiding them as to how
to act in the event that their "inner and sacred beliefs" were
to be violated by their government? Rather, he stated that
this letter provided the Guardian's "views on the present
conditions in that land, and particularly in their relation
to the nature and scope of the Baha'i activities of our
German believers."
5. The Guardian was fully informed of the "present conditions"
in Germany. In fact, fully 7 months previously, in a letter
dated 16 May 1933, the Guardian had written through his
secretary:
"Dear Dr. Muhlschlegel:
The Guardian ... does sincerely hope that the reports we
receive here about the sentiments rampant in Germany are untrue
to fact, that it is a regeneration of the people rather than a
retrogression towards a dead past. Because whatever we say of
Germany, we have to admit that its people are endowed with a
spiritual vitality quite superior to many other races."
[The Light of Divine Guidance, Vol. I, p. 47]
6. The letter specifically informs the German Baha'i community how
to conduct itself "should the authorities in Germany decide
to-day to prevent the Baha'is from holding any meeting or
publishing any literature."
I submit that a reading of the full text of the letter shows that the
Guardian was fully alive to Hitler's threat not only to the German
Baha'is, but to the whole world. The purpose of the letter was to awaken
the German Baha'is to that threat, and to guide them when the threat
materialized. He informed them of what aspects of the Faith could be
compromised when government edicts interfered with the activities of the
Faith, and what aspects would justify the Baha'is defying their government.
I suspect that the intended audience for the particular sentences in
question, was the German government itself. We have other examples of
where the Head of the Faith knew that the government might read his
writings. For example, in the Surah of Blood, where Baha'u'llah
identified the persecutors of the previous Prophets, He did not name His
own persecutors. It is not unreasonable to infer that He did so for the
protection of the Cause.
Taking into consideration the state of affairs at that time in Germany;
and the Guardian's reference to the rise of nationalism in that country;
and the swiftness of his reply to the NSA member's letter; and the content
of the Guardian's reply letter; and his specific references to the
protection of the Cause, and to the German government's future
interference in Baha'i activities; I think that it is a fair reading of
the portion of the Guardian's letter in question, that it is a discreet
and diplomatic assertion to the government of the rights of the German
Baha'is to practice their religion. I personally think this was an
admonition to the German government:
"And there is every reason to believe that the present
regime in Germany which has thus far refused to trample upon
the domain of individual conscience in all matters
pertaining to religion will never encroach upon it in the
near future, unless some unforeseen and unexpected changes
take place. And this seems to be doubtful at present. "
As the Guardian wrote, he is "infallible in protection of the Faith."
And I believe that a full reading of his letter abundantly demonstrates
that guidance.
Brent
=END=
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 18:42:17 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Talisman
Subject: Guardian re: Hitler, #2
11 February 1934
Dear Baha'i Brother,
I am charged by the Guardian to thank you for your letter of
Jan. 30th as well as for the enclosed pamphlet containing the
address delivered by Herr Hitler on Oct. 14th, 1933, on the
subject of Germany's attitude towards peace, all of which he read
with deepest care and sustained interest. He wishes me to convey
to you and to all the members of your German National Assembly
and through them to all the followers of the Faith in Germany his
views on the present conditions in that land, and particularly in
their relation to the nature and scope of the Baha'i activities
of our German believers.
At the outset it should be made indubitably clear that the
Baha'i Cause being essentially a religious movement of a
spiritual character stands above every political party or group,
and thus cannot and should not act in contravention to the
principles, laws, and doctrines of any government. Obedience to
the regulations and orders of the state is indeed, the sacred
obligation of every true and loyal Baha'i. Both Baha'u'llah and
Abdu'l-Baha have urged us all to be submissive and loyal to the
political authorities of our respective countries. It follows,
therefore, that our German friends are under the sacred
obligation to whole-heartedly obey the existing political regime,
whatever be their personal views and criticisms of its actual
working. There is nothing more contrary to the spirit of the
Cause than open rebellion against the governmental authorities of
a country, specially if they do not interfere in and do not
oppose the inner and sacred beliefs and religious convictions of
the individual. And there is every reason to believe that the
present regime in Germany which has thus far refused to trample
upon the domain of individual conscience in all matters
pertaining to religion will never encroach upon it in the near
future, unless some unforeseen and unexpected changes take place.
And this seems to be doubtful at present.
For whereas the friends should obey the government under
which they live, even at the risk of sacrificing all their
administrative affairs and interests, they should under no
circumstances suffer their inner religious beliefs and
convictions to be violated and transgressed by any authority
whatever. A distinction of a fundamental importance must,
therefore, be made between spiritual and administrative matters.
Whereas the former are sacred and inviolable, and hence cannot be
subject to compromise, the latter are secondary and can
consequently be given up and even sacrificed for the sake of
obedience to the laws and regulations of the government.
Obedience to the state is so vital a principle of the Cause that
should the authorities in Germany decide to-day to prevent the
Baha'is from holding any meeting or publishing any literature
they should obey and be as submissive as our Russian believers
have thus far been under the Soviet regime. But, as already
pointed out, such an allegiance is confined merely to
administrative matters which if checked can only retard the
progress of the Faith for some time. In matters of belief,
however, no compromise whatever should be allowed, even though
the outcome of it be death or expulsion.
There is one more point to be emphasized in this connection.
The principle of obedience to government does not place any
Baha'i under the obligation of identifying the teachings of his
Faith with the political program enforced by the government. For
such an identification, besides being erroneous and contrary to
both the spirit as well as the form of the Baha'i message, would
necessarily create a conflict within the conscience of every
loyal believer.
For reasons which are only too obvious the Baha'i philosophy
of social and political organization cannot be fully reconciled
with the political doctrines and conceptions that are current and
much in vogue to-day. The wave of nationalism, so aggressive and
so contagious in its effects, which has swept not only over
Europe but over a large part of mankind is, indeed, the very
negation of the gospel of peace and of brotherhood proclaimed by
Baha'u'llah. The actual trend in the political world is, indeed,
far from being in the direction of the Baha'i teachings. The
world is drawing nearer and nearer to a universal catastrophe
which will mark the end of a bankrupt and of a fundamentally
defective civilization.
From such considerations we can well conclude that we as
Baha'is can in no wise identify the teachings of Baha'u'llah with
man-made creeds and conceptions, which by their very nature are
impotent to save the world from the dangers with which it is
being so fiercely and so increasingly assailed. The Guardian
hopes that these brief explanations will be sufficient to guide
our German National Assembly in their efforts to safeguard and
promote the interests of the Faith, and that through them they
will be given a new vision of the Cause and a fresh determination
to carry forward its message to the world at large.
With greetings and best wishes to you and to all the friends
in Germany,...
[From the Guardian:]
Dear and valued co-worker:
I wish to add a few words in loving appreciation of your
strenuous, your intelligent and devoted efforts for the spread
and consolidation of our beloved Faith. May the Almighty bless
your endeavours, deepen your understanding of the essentials and
requirements of our beloved Cause, and enable you in these
difficult and challenging days to promote its interests and
consolidate its institutions,
Your true brother, Shoghi
(The Light of Divine Guidance, Vol. I, pp. 53-56)
=END=
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 19:44:21 -0600
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Bruce Burrill
Subject: The Future of God's Faith
Huh?
Is this the problematic msg that is being talked about?
>Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 01:40:08 +0100
>Subject: The Future of God's Faith
>To: brburl@mailbag.com
>From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
>Organization: RePLaY aND CoMPaNY UnLimited
>XComm: Replay may or may not approve of the content of this posting
>XComm: Report misuse of this automated service to
>
>
>
>Concerning these times, Baha'u'llah wrote:
>"Oppression will enveop the world, and following a universal convulsion,
>the sun of justice will rise from the horizon of the unseen realm."
>(Advent of Divine Justice, p. 81)
>"The world is is travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day, its
>face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief.Such will be its
>plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly.
>Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is
>come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of
>mankind to quake.Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be
>unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody."
>(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings,pp. 118-119)
>The term Sun of Justice and Nightingale of Paradise refer to a coming
>Manifestation of God. The term unseen realm refers to the realm of
>the Holy Spirit, and the Divinve Standard refers to the Word of God.
>These are terms discussed in the Kitab-i-Iqan and elsewhere in the
>writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
>
>Most Baha'is believe that the 1000 years prophecy mentioned in the
>Kitab-i-Aqdas begins in 1852, 1863, or 1892--although no date was
>ever given for its beginning by Baha'u'llah, Abdul'Baha, or Shoghi
>Effendi. However, Shoghi Effendi inferred that a Manifestation could
>appear at any time, as recorded by his wife, Ruhiyyih Khanum, Hand of
>The Cause, in the Baha'i News, May, 1958:
>"The Guardian said to some of the pilgrims, during the last year and a
>half or two years, something very strange. He said there are two
>Plans: the long term eternal Plan of Almighty God for mankind on
>this planet; that is the Plan that has the Prophets of God, the Adamic
>Cycle and all of the Great Manifestations of God, like Christ, and
>Muhammad, Buddha, Zoroaster, and Moses and so on, bringing us to this
>day with the Bab and Baha'u'llah. This is the Mighty Plan of God,
>educating humanity and bringing the Kingdom of Heaven on earth on this
>planet. He said this is the Plan of God, it goes forward in
>mysterious ways, we do not always understand its workings.
> Then he said, we have the Divine plane, which is being carried
>forward by the Baha'is in the form as we know it; first the two
>Seven-Year Plans, and then this Ten-Year Plan--the World Crusade which
>we are now engaged upon and part of which has passed.
> The Guardian said, who knows, maybe this Great Plan of God will
>interfere in the other Plan."
>
>It is clear that if the Great Plan of God, which is the coming of a
>Manifestation, interferes with the present Baha'i Teaching Plans,
>then we must confidently expect a Manifestation to appear soon.
>We know this to be the Revelation of the Greatest Name, which
>in Arabic is BHA', composed of three letters. The Bab said he was the
>B (Ba) of the Greatest Name (see Selections from the Writings of
>E.G. Browne, by M. Momen, p. 215) and Baha'u'llah said that He was
>the H (Ha) of the Greatest Name (se Kitab-i-Iqan, 1954 edtion,
> p. 261--Glossary, and in the Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys,
> 1952 edition, footnote p. 56). The Third Letter, the A (Alif) is
>yet to appear, and when He appears the Revelation of the Greatest
>Name will be completed. The 1000 years will begin at that time.
>
>For further information, write:
>Baha'i, P.O.Box 172, Eckert, CO, 81418. U.S.A
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 96 18:53:45 PST
Subject: Humility and Forgiveness
To: talisman@indiana.edu, 748-9178@mcimail.com, wog@poseidon.usnus.abb.com
Dear friends,
A few further thoughts on the multi-level nature of forgiveness and
humility. And, begging your indulgence, I do hope this sort of musing
is appropriate for Talisman. It does relate to spiritual matters and
I would appreciate some feedback.
I am trying to put these ideas into a coherent form to publish and
having this audition group to really helps. When I write I try to
imagine the Talisman group as a wise audience. I have so much respect
for you all.
But moving ahead.
In this section I'm going to make connections between my ideas about
what forgiveness is and brain anatomy. And then I'm going ask about
correspondences between brain functioning and spirituality.
First a summary.
I had said that forgiveness is a form of meta thinking. It is a level
up from reacting. It is a form of thinking about feelings.
I used the analogy of how shock absorbers dampen the reactions of
springs. I also used the analogy of automatic pilots and how they
include meta levels of systems, each higher level monitoring and
regulating the responses the the level below.
Now, about Brain anatomy.
Daniel Goleman, Ph.D., who covers psychology for the New York Times,
has written a book called Emotional Intelligence in which he talks
about the importance of the emotions and their ability to "guide us
in facing predicaments and tasks too important to leave to the
intellect alone."
In discussing what he calls "the basic architecture of mental life,"
he says that our patterns of emotional behavior are rooted in the
"basic neural circuitry of mental life," a "biological template for
emotional life" that has remained unchanged for the last 50,000 human
generations. So clearly, it has some survival value.
I call attention to the biological architecture because, in its
functioning, it lines up with the double level process I was
describing earlier in my analogy between forgiveness and automobile
suspension systems.
Just as in the automobile suspension system, and as in automatic
pilots there is one system that does the immediate responding and
then a second system that modulates the first, so too in the brain.
First an overview of brain architecture.
The human brain can be thought of a three part organ. The first part
is the core, the deepest, most sheltered part, the brain stem, the
part closest to the spinal cord that controls basic functions like
breathing and metabolism. Here is the ancient survival-oriented brain
whose architecture we share not only with mammals, but also with
reptiles. No emotions here, just routines and functions.
Emotions come with the next layer, the layer that appeared with the
early mammals. It circling the reptilian core and accordingly is
named the "limbus," latin for "ring." Parts of the limbus are
connected to the sense of smell and are called the "rhinencephalon."
Smell is the earliest sense used for the basic survival decision: "
Eat it, avoid it, or mate it? "an array so basic it's humorous.
The limbus contains an almond shaped structure called, "the almond,"
but in Latin, of course: the "amygdala. Here is how Dr. Goleman
describes it's importance: "if the amygdala is severed from the rest
of the brain, the result is a striking inability to guage the
emotional significance of events....Life without the amygdala is a
life stripped of personal meanings."
Crowning the limbus is the "new brain, the neocortex, the big folded
lobes that are all we see in the brains in the jar in the
Frankenstein movie. These lobes are where sensory signals are
processed into thought forms, where the pattern of impulses on the
optic nerve gets shaped into "things" we "see," where sounds become
"words," where thoughts get thunk.
Now the amygdala has a relationship with the neocortex, but it also
does it's own thinking, a more primitive thinking than cortical
thinking, but faster and therefore, with more survival value. It can
make us react before we think. It is why we "DUCK!!" first and then
ask: "What was that?"
When it has a chance, the neocortex "thinks" about the messages from
the amygdala and modifies them. And the way it does is most exquisite
and balanced. The neocortex has two lobes. The right frontal lobe
supports the strong negative actions related to fear and aggression
and the left frontal load inhibits them. Acting together, they
strength here and hold back there and like a shock absorber
controling a set of springs, dampening the action, making it steady,
harmonizing emotion and thought, keeping everything in control.
So, going back to the original argument, brain architecture also
seems to suggest this multi-level analysis of emotions with the raw
emotions being the more immediate responses and the refining ones
being the more "spiritual" more modulating ones. Forgiveness, then,
in my analysis, would be a manifestaion of the neo-cortical activity.
I'm not sure where to go from here. We could analyze it further, I
would think that we could also test it out by interviewing brain
injured people.
So I leave here is with this question: If forgiveness can be
understood as a meta response to emotions, and if basic emotional
responses are refined by high level, self reflective, mediating brain
functions, then how would we fit into this model a spiritual quality
like detachment?
Good night for now
And, if you've stayed with me, thank you.
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 01/09/96
Time: 18:53:45
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: "Steven Kolins"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 21:29:19 EST
Subject: Frames of Mind
Message from Quanta:
Howard Gardner, Author of Frames of Mind created a model of
multiple intellect, as follows not necessarily order of importance.
1) Language intellect
2) Musical intellect
3) Kinesatic intellect
4) Logi/mathematical intellect
5) Visual intellect
6) Intra-personal intellect
7) Inter-personal intellect
Based on this model and the reference to intellect in the Writings,
my understanding is that "intellect" is universal. Each human being
may possess varying degrees of the seven categories. Therefore, if
someone with greater capacity in language intellect perceive those
with greater capacity in kinesatic (dancer, athlete, etc.) intellect,
less intelligent, would they be anti-intellectual?
QUANTA DAWN-LIGHT
All I need is Freedom of spirit, Chastity of soul, and Purity of
heart. A pov is not even secondary.
=END=
From: AGhosh@uh.edu
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 1996 20:51:35 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Jim's reforms, Houston, Youth Movement and Musings
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Jim, God forbid I would consider someone who loves Bahaullah as a
troublemaker. I am only relating some wonderful events which have occurred
in Houston, which transformed the lives of many youths like me and how the
wise experienced souls like you can help the youth find their way of service.
The efforts in Houston has not died. It was like a match that lighted the
first grass, which could not take the heat and burned away. But it sent
a few sparks around which kindled some other grass which are simmering
and ready to light again in far-flung areas of the country like San-Diego,
Seattle and Dallas. Maybe they will burn away too which will send a few
more sparks around and finally when the fire is on everyting will be aflame.
Basically Houston was a proof-of-concept experiment that entry-by-troops
methods painstakingly developed by Dr. Muhajir, Dr. Ahmadiyyah and others
work as easily in the United-States as it has worked in other parts of the
world. In fact when I was reading the history of large-scale-growth in
Columbia it did not differ much from what happened in Houston. Believe me
any of the youths like me who has been blessed with the shared moments and
leaderships by such teachers as Naina Featherston etc. and the experience
of complete strangers saying within five minutes I believe, I have always
believed, I am a Bahai are not going to give up teaching no matter what
comes in their path. I have met all the youths who passed across Houston
during this period in the conference and their heart burns bright and
they are ready to take up the challenge. But they also know that right or
wrong without the assembly's love or guidance they cannot achieve anything:
however immature they are.
So if you would desire to help the youth come let us be aglow with the
fire which flows from heart to heart. Why not burn away your sorrows with
the bright light which shines from the faces which say I believe. Nothing
is lost as Naina so painstakingly instilled among us. Everytime you utter
the name of Bahaullah a bubble bursts around the souls which are veiled
even they seem to reject you.
We are living in great times. Why be miserable when we can wing our flight
to glory which is rightfully ours.
Love
Arindam
=END=
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 15:59:50 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: SDC 10: "A man should pause and reflect and be just."
Talismans,
What better summary of the meaning of the contemplative life than
these few words -- " A man should pause and reflect and be just..."?
Robert.
SDC 10
A man should pause and reflect and be just: his Lord, out of
measureless grace, has made him a human being and honored him with the
words: "Verily, We created man in the goodliest of forms" (Qur'an 95:4. )
--and caused His mercy which rises out of the dawn of oneness to shine
down upon him, until he became the wellspring of the words of God and the
place where the mysteries of heaven alighted, and on the morning of
creation he was covered with the rays of the qualities of perfection and
the graces of holiness. How can he stain this immaculate garment with the
filth of selfish desires, or exchange this everlasting honor for infamy?
"Dost thou think thyself only a puny form, when the universe is folded up
within thee?" (The Imam Ali)
Were it not our purpose to be brief and to develop our primary
subject, we would here set down a summary +P20 of themes from the
Divine world, as to the reality of man and his high station and the
surpassing value and worth of the human race. Let this be, for another
time.
=END=
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 19:00:48 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Coming of Age in the New Millenium
Wow, Fooled ya! I bet you thought I had some hot topic... Well, I do
I was out surfing ( I still say it should be spelled serfing) the NET and
ran across this address to the Virtual Classroom
http://horizons.org/campus/ I saw there the subject title, being taught
by a Unitarian Minister Class number #781.
And I have a question, There is going to be a class on "Intro to Qabalah"
Can someone give me a reader's digest version... sounded mystical...
class number #731
oh, to register, its Register@Horizons.org and its free...
Warmly, Margreet
=END=
[end of 1/9/95 session]
Talisman emails received 1/10/96
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 22:36:35 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: Bruce Burrill
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: The Future of God's Faith
On Tue, 9 Jan 1996, Bruce Burrill wrote:
> Huh?
>
> Is this the problematic msg that is being talked about?
>
Yes.
John Walbridge
>
> >Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 01:40:08 +0100
> >Subject: The Future of God's Faith
> >To: brburl@mailbag.com
> >From: nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous)
> >Organization: RePLaY aND CoMPaNY UnLimited
> >XComm: Replay may or may not approve of the content of this posting
> >XComm: Report misuse of this automated service to
> >
> >
> >
> >Concerning these times, Baha'u'llah wrote:
> >"Oppression will enveop the world, and following a universal convulsion,
> >the sun of justice will rise from the horizon of the unseen realm."
> >(Advent of Divine Justice, p. 81)
> >"The world is is travail, and its agitation waxeth day by day, its
> >face is turned towards waywardness and unbelief.Such will be its
> >plight, that to disclose it now would not be meet and seemly.
> >Its perversity will long continue. And when the appointed hour is
> >come, there shall suddenly appear that which shall cause the limbs of
> >mankind to quake.Then, and only then, will the Divine Standard be
> >unfurled, and the Nightingale of Paradise warble its melody."
> >(Baha'u'llah, Gleanings,pp. 118-119)
> >The term Sun of Justice and Nightingale of Paradise refer to a coming
> >Manifestation of God. The term unseen realm refers to the realm of
> >the Holy Spirit, and the Divinve Standard refers to the Word of God.
> >These are terms discussed in the Kitab-i-Iqan and elsewhere in the
> >writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah.
> >
> >Most Baha'is believe that the 1000 years prophecy mentioned in the
> >Kitab-i-Aqdas begins in 1852, 1863, or 1892--although no date was
> >ever given for its beginning by Baha'u'llah, Abdul'Baha, or Shoghi
> >Effendi. However, Shoghi Effendi inferred that a Manifestation could
> >appear at any time, as recorded by his wife, Ruhiyyih Khanum, Hand of
> >The Cause, in the Baha'i News, May, 1958:
> >"The Guardian said to some of the pilgrims, during the last year and a
> >half or two years, something very strange. He said there are two
> >Plans: the long term eternal Plan of Almighty God for mankind on
> >this planet; that is the Plan that has the Prophets of God, the Adamic
> >Cycle and all of the Great Manifestations of God, like Christ, and
> >Muhammad, Buddha, Zoroaster, and Moses and so on, bringing us to this
> >day with the Bab and Baha'u'llah. This is the Mighty Plan of God,
> >educating humanity and bringing the Kingdom of Heaven on earth on this
> >planet. He said this is the Plan of God, it goes forward in
> >mysterious ways, we do not always understand its workings.
> > Then he said, we have the Divine plane, which is being carried
> >forward by the Baha'is in the form as we know it; first the two
> >Seven-Year Plans, and then this Ten-Year Plan--the World Crusade which
> >we are now engaged upon and part of which has passed.
> > The Guardian said, who knows, maybe this Great Plan of God will
> >interfere in the other Plan."
> >
> >It is clear that if the Great Plan of God, which is the coming of a
> >Manifestation, interferes with the present Baha'i Teaching Plans,
> >then we must confidently expect a Manifestation to appear soon.
> >We know this to be the Revelation of the Greatest Name, which
> >in Arabic is BHA', composed of three letters. The Bab said he was the
> >B (Ba) of the Greatest Name (see Selections from the Writings of
> >E.G. Browne, by M. Momen, p. 215) and Baha'u'llah said that He was
> >the H (Ha) of the Greatest Name (se Kitab-i-Iqan, 1954 edtion,
> > p. 261--Glossary, and in the Seven Valleys and the Four Valleys,
> > 1952 edition, footnote p. 56). The Third Letter, the A (Alif) is
> >yet to appear, and when He appears the Revelation of the Greatest
> >Name will be completed. The 1000 years will begin at that time.
> >
> >For further information, write:
> >Baha'i, P.O.Box 172, Eckert, CO, 81418. U.S.A
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
=END=
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 12:00:35 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: Noorbakhsh.Monzavi@hibo.no, Masumian@mail.utexas.edu,
frlw@midway.uchicago.edu
Subject: Reuters 1/8/96 (fwd)
> 'IRAN' STORIES
>Transmission date: 96/01/08
> 1. 14:34 FIRE SWEEPS THROUGH TEHRAN BAZAAR
> 2. 13:58 IRAN POLICE RAID 110 HOMES, SEIZE BANNED TV DISHES
> 3. 09:40 CHINA ASSURES IRAN ON NUCLEAR COOPERATION
> 4. 09:08 IRAN'S VELAYATI TO VISIT INDIA THIS WEEK
>
>=START= XMT: 14:34 Mon Jan 08 EXP: 4 :00 Thu Jan 11
>
>
> Fire sweeps through Tehran bazaar
> TEHRAN, Jan 8 (Reuter) - A fire swept through Tehran's old bazaar district,
>gutting a number of stores, local newspapers said on Monday.
> The daily Kayhan said firemen from three stations fought over an hour to
>put out the blaze and prevent it from spreading to neighbouring shops in the
>old market's narrow streets.
> A fire department official, quoted by the daily Resalat, estimated damage
>caused by the fire on Saturday at 1.5 billion rials ($500,000 at the official
>exchange rate).
> He said the cause of the fire was being investigated but criticised shop
>owners for ignoring fire safety rules.
> In December, a huge blaze gutted 150 stores in an old garment district in
>Tehran and injured three firemen.
> ($1-3,000 rials)
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 13:58 Mon Jan 08 EXP: 3 :00 Thu Jan 11
>
>
> Iran Police raid 110 homes, seize banned TV dishes
> TEHRAN, Jan 8 (Reuter) - Iranian police raided 110 houses in Tehran and
>seized banned satellite television equipment used to watch ``corrupting''
>Western programmes, a local newspaper said on Monday.
> The daily Kayhan said police had obtained court orders to search the houses
>last week after screening neighbourhoods in east Tehran to pinpoint violators.
> Last April, Iran ordered all satellite television equipment to be
>dismantled after banning them earlier last year to combat what it termed a
>Western cultural invasion.
> Residents said some of the estimated 250,000 dish owners had in the past
>few months put them back up on the roof, often camouflaging them as air
>conditioners and other equipment.
> Under the ban, illegal users of satellitee dishes face fines of three
>million rials ($1,000 at the official exchange rate) and confiscation of the
>equipment.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 09:40 Mon Jan 08 EXP: 9 :00 Thu Jan 11
>
>
> China assures Iran on nuclear cooperation
> TEHRAN, Jan 8 (Reuter) - China will continue its nuclear cooperation with
>Iran, a senior Chinese official said on Monday during a visit to Tehran,
>state-run Tehran radio reported.
> ``China will continue its cooperation with Iran on the peaceful use of
>nuclear energy within the framework of regulations set by the International
>Atomic Energy Agency, and considers this a principled and correct policy,''
>First Deputy Foreign Minister Tian Zengpei was quoted by the radio as saying.
> The United States has pressed China not to proceed with a deal to help Iran
>build two small 300-megawatt nuclear power stations in Iran's Khuzestan
>province near the Iraqi border.
> U.S. officials said in September Beijing had assured Washington the deal
>would not go ahead, and Chinese officials later said China had ``suspended for
>the time being'' the reactor sale.
> It was not clear if Tian meant that the deal would go ahead after all and
>the radio gave no further details of his remarks made during talks with Iranian
>Deputy Foreign Minister Alaeddin Boroujerdi.
> Boroujerdi was quoted as saying: ``Iran will continue its principled
>long-term policy of expanding cooperation with China and the two states' ties
>will grow based on the huge potentials of the two countries.''
> Iran has said negotiations over the site, price and schedule for the deal
>were still in progress.
> Washington accuses Iran of sponsoring ``state terrorism'' and argues Tehran
>might use the technology it obtained from China to develop nuclear arms.
> Iran denies the charge and says its nuclear programme is strictly peaceful.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 09:08 Mon Jan 08 EXP: 9 :00 Thu Jan 11
>
>
> Iran's Velayati to visit India this week
> NEW DELHI, Jan 8 (Reuter) - Iranian Foreign Minister Ali Akbar Velayati
>will arrive in India for a three-day visit on Thursday, an Indian foreign
>ministry spokesman said on Monday.
> He said Velayati would hold talks with External Affairs Minister Pranab
>Mukherjee in New Delhi and later go to Bombay to take part in the centenary
>celebrations of the Confederation of Indian Industry, the nation's leading
>business club.
> Diplomats said the two foreign ministers would discuss the situation in
>Afghanistan. They oppose the rise of the Taliban movement against the Kabul
>government.
> A multi-billion dollar gas pipeline deal and preparations for India's
>proposed transit trade through Iran to Central Asian countries would be high on
>the agenda, they said.
> Velayati has not hidden his support for India's ruling Congress party in
>previous general elections.
> There is considerable speculation about whether Moslem Iran will directly
>or indirectly express its support for Prime Minister P.V. Narasimha Rao's
>government.
> Rao badly needs the support of Indian Moslems, who form about 12 percent of
>the country's population, to mount any serious campaign for a second term in
>office in elections he has said will take place in April.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
=END=
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 21:40:01 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: applying teachings
On Sat, 6 Jan 1996 Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl wrote:
> you posted a message on the policy of non-interference in
> government which contained two quotes from WOB on the topic
> of 'the power of the House to infallibly apply the Teachings.'
> The first, which you cited in full, was from p 145, but it refers to
> an *authority* to apply 'His legislative ordinances', not to any
> infallibility in doing so. The second which you referred to was
> on pp 19-20, but at least in my edition (1980 reprint of the 1974
> 2nd revised edition) this again does not refer to infallibility in
> applying the teachings.
> I submit that the topic should be 'the power of the House
> to apply the Teachings - right or wrong'.
There is an abundance of quotes in the writings referring to the NSA's and
LSA's in that fashion; but I can think of none referring to the Guardian
or the House in that manner (that we obey because it/he is the authority,
but that does not carry a guarantee of infallibility.) I have only
recently understood that some view the authority of the House as having a
wider scope than the guidance the House receives. I am now trying to
understand the intellectual basis, and the basis in the Texts and
interpretations, for that view.
My own view is that in those areas of non-infallibility -- the Guardian
identified some specifically -- the Guardian made clear that the believer
was free to obey or not, as these were merely his suggestions. Therefore
he not only declared the matter as outside of the scope of his
infallibilty, but of his authority to command that the believers obey.
I do feel that the scope of infallibility and the scope of authority are
coterminous. But I am not sure myself what texts are available on the
subject. There were not many reflective comments by the Guardian on his
infallibility.
Brent
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 23:47:21 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: Jim's reforms
Dear Arindam ,
I do appreciate your enthusiasm ! I must say that I think you may
have missed the point of Jim's message . While he is perfectly capable of
speaking on his behalf I feel it necessary to point out that Jim is
suggesting that until ther believers really confront the message of Shoghi
Effendi to this country the enthusiasm kindled in Houston is likely to be
much like being all dressed up for a party with no place to go . Are the
believers in Houston and elsewhere ready to tackle the hard work of rooting
out the pervasive materialism in the midst ? a cancerous secularism ? an
inveterate racialism ? If not what we will have in the end I fear wil be a
Bahai gloss on New Age spirituallity which for whatever it has indicates a
pathetic lack of recognition of the tragic in human life and does not and
can not sustain people for the long struggle towards personal and colective
transformation.
As for rallying around the Admimnistrative institutions. I became a Bahai
24 years ago in the midst of a significant youth movement entering the Faith
. There was enthusism galore . The NSa was given standing ovations in
Oklahoma City and St Louis . The issue is not the NSA pro or con .One of our
greatest traps it sems to me is to confuse spiritual redemption and
transformation with Administrative identities . I understand the
consolidation work is lagging in Houston . That has always beem the case .
As a salesman i can tell you the EASY part of the process is the sale i.e.
the declaration . The hard psrt comes in creating "meaningful " involvement
for all those involved, the long term coperation , mutual aid and reciprocity
spoken of by the Master. That has to be something greater than a perpetual
motion evangelizing machine . What do you propose for the new declarents ?
How many of them are staying involved ? I bet not many on a percentage basis
. If all we have to offer people is another version of a tent revival and
saying I believe not much will come of all the wonderful sentiments and
energies you have described . We seem to think it is about signing on and
assigning committee work . That is community = administration .
My guess is there are more "inactive Bahais out there who could be
fruitfully resurrected with an emphasis on worship services and all the work
and ecstasy associated with that experience and in developing the
dependencies of the House of Worship devoted to the "disinterested service to
mankind" e.g. charitable sevice than all the new believers who have
"declared in Hiuston or anywhere else in this country in the past several
years.
I will be impressed when a community tells me that they have constructed
a House of Worship and hold Daily worship services that a majority of the
community attends . No excuses for work schedules and all those other
committments . This would send a more powerful message than anything I know
that Bahais are serious about a different way of life . All the I believe
stuff is not much of a big deal . And we should not fool ourselves into
thinking so . Without the above mentioned activities i cant for the life of
me figure out what al these new believers are going to do - attend
"deepenings forever ?
I do not mean to rain on your parade as an end in itself . I have been
where you are more than once . I am interested in a vast increase in the
"presence" of the Faith in America. I do not believe that will happen - and I
think that was Jims point - until the Bahais take seriously Shoghi Effendi
and begin the hard work of ridding ourselves of the evils within our own
community and then assailing them without . Until we do it there is nothing
beyond words to offer and the world has plenty of words . As Baha u lah says
"let deeds not words be your adorning." If you have examples of this hard
work being undertaken PLEASE tell me . I would like to learn of nothing
better and there would be little that would thrill me more.
So let me put my monet where my mouth is for suggestions :
1) Build a house of Worship - not a Bahai center - and have the believers
do it .
2) Hold daliy worship services with music - in the morning
3) Identify the human needs of the Bahai community , there social and
economic concerns for thenmselves and their children and organizt the first
dependency of the House of Worship .
4) Once 3 has been done extend the benefit of the communities response
to the city in which you live .
5) Consult and consult really consult about what service activities ar
most meaningful to the believers and for whjich there are pressing needs in
your city that have a clear spititual component. If anyone is not sure have
then refer to Abdul Baha in Selections p .3 "Soon will your swiflty passing
days ."if noone is sure where to begin .
6) Then systematically begin doing the results of 5 above .
Then I bet you will see believers "inactive "ones come out of the wood
work and you will see new believers get involved and stay involved and the
enthusiasm you exhibit will become contagious and infect all sorts of people
around you who will want to know who are these people that do such things
with such energy and love and reverential awe.
Oh yes and do not , do not , confuse any of these activities with
forming a "committee" These are activities asociated with the House of
Worship not the Administrative institutions . let the administrators earn
there keep by seeing that the resources human and financial are there to
accomplish these ends . if they wont- hey- elect new ones that will .
Then maybe LSA's wil begin to speak to the world about justice and bear the
prophetic "witness' to the world and address the powerful about a new world
that I am convinced Bahau llah intended them to do.
And let me know what happens !
warm regards ,
Terry
=END=
From: Dave10018@aol.com
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 23:32:27 -0500
To: belove@sover.net, talisman@indiana.edu, 748-9178@mcimail.com,
wog@poseidon.usnus.abb.com
Subject: Re: Humility and Forgiveness
Phillip, according to an article in the Hartford Courant this morning, the
November issue of the American Journal of Cardiology contains an article
about research which shows that cultivating deliberately the feeling of "deep
appreciation" is highly beneficial for the heart, and stressing the
beneficial effects of positive emotions on the heart, and its links to
emotional systems in the brain. This research can be accessed at
http://www.webcom.com/hrtmath
everyone, i will be putting in my 2 cents again soon. aol email is driving me
to distraction!
david taylor
=END=
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 21:48:12 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Member1700@aol.com
Cc: Talisman
Subject: Samandari memoirs
Having beat my wife to the mailbox, and hoarded the new Kalimat book of
Tarazu'llah Samandari's memoirs, I want to thank Kalimat for their
typically good job of publishing and editing an attractive book.
Samandari possessed a lion heart. Tony, good job on the introduction.
It reminded me of my own experiences with the Hands.
I heard that the Guardian directed Samandari to write his memoirs, and
that they filled several volumes. This was a tantalizing taste, but
brief. Any indications that more memoirs exist, or will become available?
Also, a question. In one of His Tablets (Ishraqat?
Kalimat-i-Firdawsiyyih?) Baha'u'llah states that "Samandar and the son of
Samandar" were present. Does this refer to Tarazullah? I assume not,
because he was present in the Holy Land only during the last months of the
lifetime of the Manifestation, and I was under the impression that those
Tablets were revealed some years earlier. Did Samandar have another son
/ Tarazullah a brother?
Brent
=END=
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 96 08:24:07+030
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: forgiveness
Dear Phillip:
Thank you for your metaphor of the shock absorbers. I am not sure that I am
understanding all the "roles" represented in your analogy. Please let me
explain what I am seeing, and it may become clearer what I am getting at.
What you have described is a system of dealing with a bump by an integrated
unit. By this I mean that the shock absorber and the car are part of the
same unit. They are dealing with an "interuption" caused by an external
object...something outside that unit. The job of the shock absorber is to
cushion the blow and correct the response for the unit.
In the Faith, are the Institutions outside the unit, or part of it? Are the
individual believers part of the unit or an external force?
What I would suggest is that the problem lies in how to get the unit to work
together.
=END=
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 96 08:23:53+030
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: dpeden@imul.com (Don Peden)
Subject: methaphors/healing
Dear Gordon:
I use to "live" in the land of metaphor, riding on a mount of pure response
to shimmering images, seeing possibilities and promise in every senerio, and
weaving a world of promise and unity from all sources of metaphor. New
metaphors were welcomed in and invited to share in the endless pot of
sustanance. Every time I read the writings, my heart would overflow
with...something...call it response...in childlike wonder. There was no
problem of teaching, acting, or moving myself from one point of being to
change whatever I did, fine tuning my actions to be in harmony with my
response. My heart was the check point, often encouraging me to do
something that logic denied...with amazing results. That response would be
able to reverberate throughout our community as people would pick up those
reflected rays and reflect them back and to each other. It did not come
from me, but from the mirror of my response. It felt like the natural way
to be a Baha'i, and it felt dynamic.
Then, through various experiences with the mortal world of the Baha'i
community and its earthbound vision, through the "couldn't, shouldn't,
wouldn't, can't" world of limited vision, I lost my faith, and I lost the
ability to dream, or to believe in the dream. The final cord snapped when I
thought that the institutions of the N.S.A. and Universal House themselves
had ceased to be the anchor from which to fix my dreamings. Fortunately,
this proved to not be true, (and this allowed a healing of sorts to start)
but not before the passage of a lengthy, painful time where we had felt
totally alienated and cut off. The insistence of putting the Faith in a box
and dealing with marketing strategies censored the methaphors and squeezed
the life out of the dream.
For an artist, this is worse than terrible.
I have submitted to the knowledge that I can't reject Baha'u'llah (a
realization come too through "head" arguments on talisman), and, therefore,
by default am still a Baha'i, but I have not been able to dream...to see the
vision in the metaphors anymore. Therefore, I have not prayed beyond
reciting a few lines and hoping for a recognition to be sparked in my heart,
because for me, prayer is very much the connecting cord to the vision.
Frankly, not being what would be classified as an intellectual, I do grow
weary sometimes of the lively debates and arguments, the hot flashes of
defeniveness, and the abrasion of "attack" mode often found on talisman, but
it is okay. That is the world of the intellectual. Universities breed it,
minds grasp it, and it is a marvellous stone on which to hone the sharpness
of thinking rational skills. Dissection, slice by slice of images,
metaphors, law, rules, parameters, and ideas, are one way of approaching truth.
But it does not feed the heart.
It is also not where I live as an artist. Realizing that I can not deny the
Faith in my life has been a probable all time low in my life. If I could
flush it out and ignore it, it would be a relief to not have to deal with
it. But I can't. I know that. Add that to tests such as Don and I have
never faced before, we can only come to one conclusion, that in order to
deal with the outer tests, we need to sort ourselves out inside. Time to
throw open the nine temple doors of the heart, and air the place out...let
the birdsong enter, and the quiet meditative presence replace the hurt and
the pain.
There is another posting about a path of healing from Henry Miller....very
welcome! Perhaps the gift we are hoping for.
But I can not approach the faith through my head...it is not in me. I can
see the concepts, I can admire the passion behind the argument, I can see
the logic, and I can stand outside it and look at it analytically. I'm just
not part of it.
This approach does not touch my heart...I am not an intellectual. I have a
brain and it works well, but I don't take a lot of joy from argument and
defence of ideas.
Your posting is one of the few which has caused a small ember to glow. A
small light...and my heart swoops to it like a moth, attracted beyond any
reason, and hungering for yet another glimmer. I don't understand it, but I
am grateful.
As Oliver Twist said,
"More, please!"
Love,
Bev.
=END=
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 96 07:46:23 IST
From: stephenk@bwc.org (Stephen Karnik)
To: talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Subscribe
subscribe talisman stephenk@bwc.org
=END=
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 22:52:39 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: jwalbrid
Cc: talisman@majordomo.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: Re: messages from nobody@replay.com
On Mon, 8 Jan 1996, jwalbrid wrote:
> I have gotten a couple of queries about an e-mail message from
> "nobody@replay.com". This obviously is an account designed to forward
> e-mail messages in a way that makes the sender anonymous. The message I
> got was not addressed to Talisman, which leads me to suspect that some
> lurker sent the message to active participants in Talisman but not to the
> list itself. Did anybody NOT get it?
I didn't.
> As for the content, it was evidently from a follower of Jamsheed Ma'ani,
> an odd covenant-breaker (Is there any other kind these days?) who claims
> to be a third Manifestation of God on the grounds that the word "Baha"
> has three letters in Arabic. Does anybody know anything more about this
> man and his group than I do?
One of the sharp-eyed friends on Talisman does; he can post on this if he
wants to. I note that the P.O. Box of nobody@oblivion.com is in Eckert,
Colorado. This is in the same telephone area code as the Covenant breaker
John Carre. Carre, according to my Talisman friend, used to be a follower
of Jamshed Ma'ani. Carre's daughter (name not known) married into the
Ma'ani family. The question in my mind is, is the maiden name of Michelle
Ma'ani, Michelle Carre? I have not been able to determine this. However,
I find evidence in her posts to s.r.b. that her views are consistent with
John Carre's: (That though Jamshid Ma'ani is no longer viewed as a
Manifestation of God, a new one is coming.) Michelle Ma'ani posted these
views on s.r.b. and insinuated the same on Talisman, in the guise of
questioning seeker, and later as wounded seeker. My protection A.B.M.
said that if memory serves him correctly, she was the person responsible
for a number of mailings to LSA's in Colorado and northern New Mexico
promoting this view.
So: I think Michelle Ma'ani is this nobody person; I think she promotes
the same views as have been attributed to John Carre, a declared Covenant
breaker; I think it entirely possible she is Carre's daughter; and these
"nobody" posts, like Michelle Ma'ani's, don't pass the smell test.
=END=
Date: Tue, 09 Jan 1996 23:08:17 -0700
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: mcfarlane@upanet.uleth.ca (Gordon McFarlane)
Subject: Re: The Future of God's Faith
Now that everybody's read what nobody wrote can somebody tell me why
everybody's so upset. Why, anybody should see that nobody's simply misinformed.
Gord.
---
Gordon McFarlane e-mail: MCFARLANE@upanet.uleth.ca
Public Access Internet
The University of Lethbridge
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 01:28:59 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Samandari memoirs
Yes, Mr. Samandari wrote his full memoirs--the story of his life-- of which
the new Kalimat book is just a taste. Only a few pages, really. But, I do
not think that there are any plans to translate or publish the full thing.
It has never been published in Persian, either.
Maybe someone else knows about the reference in the Ishraqat. I don't.
Shoghi Effendi asked all of the old believers, and especially the
companions of Baha'u'llah to record their memoirs. There are a large number
of unpublished manuscripts, as Ahang has informed us. Hope Kalimat gets a
crack at them one day.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 01:45:23 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Nuqtatul-Kaf (Browne's translation)
Hey, guys!
Browne did not translate Naqtatu'l-Kaf at all. He published the original
Persian as a part of the Gibb Memorial Series, I believe. Anyway, there is
no translation of the text. There is a long English introduction, and
another one in Persian--by a different author, if I recall.
Neither is this a spurious history, but a real early document. (Or
rather, two early documents, probably by different authors.) Balyuzi has a
lot to say about it in his book E. G. Browne and the Baha'i Faith. But,
MacEoin's analysis in his book on Sources of Babi Doctrine and History
(Brill) is the really excellent work on the subject. Anyone interested in
the book should read both discussions.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
Date: Tue, 9 Jan 1996 22:44:55 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Nuqtatul-Kaf Browne Translation .
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Talismanians .
Browne did not publish a full English translation .He had this early
history of the Faith publish by Brill < Leiden > in 1910 ,it was part
of an academic series done in the name of a Cambridge student .The full
text in Persian was published with a long commentary by Browne .
However it is now believed Muhammed Qazvini formulated much of the
commentary . The Nuqtatul-Kaf claims to be the work of Haji Mirza Jani
Kashani . This of course would not be possible due to his martyedom in
1852 . This book and Tarikh-i-Javid both claim to be
based on the old and orginal work of Haji Mirza Jani Kashani . He of
course was the first believer in the Bab from Kashan .The Bab stayed in
his house . He had three brothers two of them became Babis . One of the
two later followed Azal the other was the one who Baha'u'llah revealed
the Tablet of the Companion for .
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Wed, 10 Jan 1996 02:05:42 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Between democracy and fascism
Well, Kevin, I am afraid that we agree again. Sorry!
There certainly is a lot of space between liberal-democratic traditions
(which are by no means monolithic, in any case
