Talisman Bahai Archives Feb 15-22, 1996
February 15-22, 1996
Talisman emails received 2/15/96-2/16/96
---------------------------------------------------------
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 96 18:16 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Wealth
As we were discussing Adam Smith Day (June 5th, I believe, immediately
prior to Race Unity Day which comes up this year on June 9th) Smith claimed
that MERCANTILISM confused money and wealth, ignoring the fact that the only
real purpose of money is to purchase goods. He maintained that FREE TRADE
increased the wealth of nations, while restrictions on trade diminished
wealth. What was Smith's definition of wealth -- goods or the ability to
buy goods?
What does the Baha'i Religion teach regarding free trade? I seem to recall
Shoghi Effendi discussing the issue at one time. Lets not get too
philosophical about this, I don't want to detract from more important topics
or put Linda Walbridge to sleep (no, not like I did my cat so I could go to
Bosch last time).
Burl
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
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********************************************************
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 22:23:16 EST
Subject: Academic disciplining Quanta
Dear BB,
Everything I say and do may not be held against me
at this time. For, these are my opinions under the
Constitutional Freedoms to be a fool. I am
an anti-materialistic, anti-consumeristic person. Hear!
love,
quanta
=END=
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 19:15:10 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: to Miserable
To: talisman@indiana.edu
---- Begin Forwarded Message
Don't do it Miserable in Alaska. This Derek and Burl Patagonia holiday
fund is
a fraud. I've checked it out with the Better Busienss Bureau.
Talsiman is
harboring crooks but there doesn't seem like anything can be done about
it!
Just pray for protection.
Linda
Dear Misery in Alaska.
This is the person who decked 3 monks in Florida at a conference. Had
her husband and his best friend surrounded by Wild Women in DC.Caused
riots in Philly in every sports bar in Town.Wears BLACK AND WHITE NINJA
SUITS at home, work and Baha'i meetings. Has her husband locked up each
night under the stairs with their smelly dog, the; 'drink from toilet'
Guli.Scared a poor arabic cleric into leaving the country and did
cartwheels on stage.A sense of decency and chivalry does not allow me
to comment on the actions and words of a Lady but Misery if you neglect
your duties to Dr Uncle Derek and Dr Burl it could result in a feeling
of total shame that will overcome you. Stand by your principles send
your check to the Derek and Burl Patagonia Holiday fund , you would be
amazed how much good we do.
Always seeking your misery
Uncle Dr. Derek
cf
=END=
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 22:24:39 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: mlp@sover.net (Marie L. Procter)
Subject: Baha'i lawyers
Dear Stephen - David Gould of 96 Colbalt Cross Road, Levittown, PA 19057
Phone: (215) 949-1157 is a Baha'i lawyer.
Please tell him hello for me. Marie Procter
=END=
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 19:23:23 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: the Ninja suits
To: talisman@indiana.edu
---- Begin Forwarded Message
Dearest Derek, you are all consideration - but just a little dense. It
is
groups of support that I requested. You know, sew a little group here
and a
little group there and it will all work out in the end. If you are
making one
for yourself, please add the extra padding under the chin to help
support to
jaw so it won't wag so much.
I've putout nails on the driveway so that when the UPS truck comes, I
will have
the opportunity to dig through the packages to find all the ones that
belong to
me and that he has never (the truck driver, I mean() bothered to
deliver.
There must be dozens of them! Love, Linda
My dearest Linda
You fail to understand, I used to be, when I was younger, in the
Textile Industry. Hence when you said support my technical training the
application of Economics to textiles came rushing out. I know in some
female garments such things as padding exists, hence I was trying to be
polite and ask a discreet question in our private little world of
Talisman as to what support or padding was needed. The average and
below average male knows nothing of such things. I am prepared to guess
the ladies on this List regard most of the males as below average in
area of sensitivity.
Just trying to dbe sensitive and caring like my best Friend Burl
Kindest Regards
Derek
=END=
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 22:42:27 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Conference on Iran.
Dear Friends, Allah-u-Abha. At the end of March, i will be making my
first paper presentation at an academic conference when i attend the
conference on "Iran in the Emerging Global Order" at Coventry University.
My paper will look at "Peace, Justice and Responsibility in the Emerging
Global Order." i will not talk about Iran per se, but i hope what i have
to say will be applied to the Iranian case. i am just starting to put my
paper together, so if any of you have any suggestions please let me know.
Anyway, i realize that many of you have made so many paper presentations
at conferences that you are 'pro's'. I would like to therefore ask you to
kindly forward any comments, suggestions, thoughts, advice, guidance etc.
about absolutely anything that you think will be of assistance to me in
making a thought provoking presentation that will leave the audience
thinking about the things i wish for them to consider.
I would also really appreciate any thoughts on whether it would be
appropriate to mention the Faith at all in the context of justice etc. I
am very unsure about this as many of the participants are from Iran and i
do not want to create a bad situation. Any thoughts on this?
Also, are there any other Baha'is who are going to this conference.
Linda, i was so happy to see you will be a presentor and i am so looking
forward to meeting you.
i look forward to hearing from you.
Regards,
Cheshmak Farhoumand
Institute for Conflict Analysis and Resolution
=END=
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 22:47:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Linda Walbridge's email address
Could someone please send me Linda's email address? Thanks
Cheshmak
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Fwd: dawn prayers?
Date: 14 Feb 1996 19:58:25 GMT
All -
Would someone be interested in replying to this question?
Don C
=============================fwd==================
Subject: dawn prayers?
From: daym@zeus.candw.lc,Internet
To: Noble Creation ,Internet
DEAR Friends,
I've read to illusions that worship will be dawn prayers, everyday. Is that
in
the writings? References or quotes please.
Love
Marcus
===================================end================================
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 96 20:38 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: hermeneutics
Philip:
Mark is kidding. His thesis was about Pentacostels who hermeticaly seal
their leftovers in plastic that has had all the air sucked out of it by this
really cool but expensive machine that is advertised on infomertials.
His Grand Masters thesis is "Pentacostels and Eisegesis: Visions of Christ
in Fried Foods -- Only A Rural Phenomenon?" He seldom discusses these
important contributions, but he got A+ on it and it made him the respected
man he is today, and knows even more big words than Juan Cole.
Actually, the world's biggest collection of really large or obscure words
is currently in the posession of Christopher Buck. He lends his vocabulary
out occasionally. I believe Juan and Mark have both made good use of it from
time to time, although rumour has it that Juan once borrowed "kuzari" and
used it to form "kuzarian" and then loaned it to Stephen Lambden who, in
turn, passed it on to Peter Smith, and it did not make it back into Chris's
vocabularly in its original form for a good six months.
Dr. Burl
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
Unlimited or from your favorite book store!
ISBN#1-56901-815-4 $19.95 Suggested Retail Price
********************************************************
=END=
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 96 20:45 PST
To: Cheshmak A Farhoumand
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Conference on Iran.
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
>
>
Cheshmak Farhouma, good natured soul, said:
>
>Also, are there any other Baha'is who are going to this conference.
>Linda, i was so happy to see you will be a presentor and i am so looking
>forward to meeting you.
>>
>Cheshmak Farhoumand
>Institute for Conflict Analysis and Resolution
>
No wonder Mr. Frahoumand is eager to meet Linda! Look at where he works:
Institute for Conflict Analysis! Well, Cheshmak -- conflict is her middle
name, and analysis is her need. We will all do our best to spiritualize her
at Bosch, but the analysis and resolution will be up to you.
Good luck on your paper. I would offer you advice, but I am not qualified on
the topic.
Burl
>
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
Unlimited or from your favorite book store!
ISBN#1-56901-815-4 $19.95 Suggested Retail Price
********************************************************
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 15:43:37 +1100
From: Ahmad Aniss
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: resurrection of Ahmad?
Dear Talismanians,
Dear Quanta,
Dear Derek,
Now that I got you attentions,
In reply to the following conversation:
> Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 08:08:14 -0800
> From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
> Subject: Fwd: Re: Fwd: Dear Drs. Burl and Uncle Derek: Why Folks Write So
> To: talisman@indiana.edu
>> Dear Derek,
>>
>> You said, half of the people on talisman don't know what they are
>> writing. Which half are you part of? Do you know? It also depends on
>> how much you weigh. Wow! the boat is sinking in this corner,
>> please move to the center please. That's where the coffee is to get
>> the brain going on in the morning Salutations to Bosch! Sorry,
>> could not come, but I am sending lots of pictures with Farzin.
>> Pictures of past and present talismanians. Some people from Europe.
>> Surprise! Surprise! My Golly Molly Surprise!!
>>
>> love,
>> quanta
>
> My dear Qanta:
> I informed Misery that the vast majority do not read what they post A
> happy day to look forward to when half read what they post.We look
> forward to receiving the Rogues Gallery photographs we will not display
> them upon receipt of monies for the Derek and Burl Patagonia Holiday
> Fund.Please remember to send treats for Sherman and Bobo otherwise
> Farzin, whoever he is, might be in danger of annoying two Pussy Cats.
> The song you mentioned is:'Good Golly Miss Molly'sung by the old Rocker
> himself Little Richard. Linda thinks that Miss Molly is a relative of
> Miss Manners but she adores Mantovani and Barry Manilow. By the way
> what happened with your daughter and Ahmad ,the terrible Seed of
> Creation, Annis. I hear he is still waiting on the runway at Sydney
> Airport for the hundreds of girls to fly in for him . Ahmad they all
> changed their minds and went to Disneyland together and had a great
> time sorry about that old chap.
> Kindest Regards
> Derek Cockshut
May I say friends that Ahmad is alive, kicking and is still with you on
Talisman. Although he has been very busy and does not think that he has
the time to contribute to the many discussions on Talisman, but he has
been reading a lot of the postings, mind you he has at times sit there and
watched the traffic go by like many others. My suggestion to the Misery
Man from Alaska is to read the subject heading and then decide if the
posting has to be deleted or not. Or read the first few lines and then
decide. I have seen lately order requests for books which has been sent to
Talisman. I ask the question: do I care or do I want to know who is buy
what books? So definitely there is rubbish around. I do agree that some
long postings are just garbage but some are praiseworthy and one must not
base things on length. Mind you dear Quanta, weight and volume is
important in a photo but possibly not on e-mail message.
As a matter of fact I have been saving all my Talisman e-mails on disc
since I came on it. I have talisman postings on disc based on the date I
stored them usually daily or on two to three days bases.
Regarding me waiting on the runway: You probably know there has been
a political row in Sydney as the Federal Government upgraded the airport
here and so they built a second runway (North-South) and practically
closed the West-East runway, which meant that people on the North are
getting the noise and not us in the South-West of the city. So I have no
idea if there has been any 747 jets buzzing over my house or on the
runway caring a full cargo of the posted female possies from our
honourable members of Talisman. Mind you as I have said before Ahmad
will not hide like Salmon Rashti, although by my lack of postings on
Talisman, I may have given that impression.
As to regard to the affair between Ayla and Ahmad goes: Quanta has
refused to depart with Ayla's photo and hence as a result Ahmad has
refused to send his photo for inspection. Mind you he is trying to get a
colour photo of his scanned and put on his unannounced home page (will
be announced soon with a lot of goodies in it as Quanta can testify to that).
So to compromise on the current dispute. However, it looks like Ahmad
has been really bitten by a man called Farzin in the quest for Ayla and I
hear some music being played in this regard but I may have mistaken and
it could be only 'Good Golly Miss Molly's sung by the old Rocker.
As to the Seed of Creation goes: It has more implications than you have
thought of and I will soon describe them on talisman, just to give you a
hint they will be on 1) Darwin's false theory of evolution and 2) A new
model on the structure of the world to come after our death. I don't know
when that will be, but it may be sooner than I could think of. So don't
delete postings randomly and look for the author of the e-mail too.
As to Sherman's advisory manual on how to charm ladies I have to say I
only received chapter one of it and no more, but also one has to find the
lady first to charm to. Of course may be it is me and not the ladies around
me, but time will tell. Of course is comforting to know that they all
changed their minds and went to Disneyland together and had a great time,
at least they had a good time and poor Ahmad awaits a time of such
pleasures in their company.
Of course I like to come to defence of our honourable wife of the list
owner, our charming Linda (have not seen a photo of her yet) at some
stage as I think Sherman and members of the Walla Walla barber shop
(particularly Burl) have been very offensive of her, mind you I have to
admit that I like to see make up on females and a bit of lace show off. So
that is why I am attracted to our list owners wife.
One advise from me to some members of Talisman and Quanta is that
don't be so negative of life and our Baha'i community, we all have our
problems but if you sit there and always nag about it, you only end up
depressed. So try to improve you situation and of the others. I have to
say there must be some on Talisman that only get their spiritual income by
sitting behind the computer and write. I always wondered where some of
my contributions go I now know that words cost $5 to $20 on this
bandwidth. That is why I am writing such a long posting and for those
who delete long posts, what a shame, you will not read all this nugae
canorae as Dr. Juan Cole will put it. And don't think I spend only
moments on writing this.
I am happy that at least Quanta has removed her phrase "senseless and
random love ...." from the end of her E-mails. I have to say what a load
of rubbish friends attach to the end of their postings, such examples that I
do not want to reiterate here. Wouldn't it be better just state where you
are from, your e-mail address and contact number, so that we can figure
out where the posting comes from.
Regarding to Qublih and where about of it and its direction. I must say I
liked the detailed work that the owner of that posting is gone into to
describe the correct way of its findings. However, I would say first we
must get ourselves into the habit of saying the obligatory Prayer, I myself
have had an struggle with it let alone being able to say it to the right
direction. In any case I think intentions over rule the procedure in a
prayer. But yet I must say I liked that posting.
Now I better stop here or the honourable members might raise so much
objections that could perchance force the honourable list owner
unintentionally to remove this humble writer and wipe his name out of this
list.
With warm regards to every one,
Ahmad.
_______________________________________________________________________
^ ^
^ Dr. A.M. Aniss, Tel: Home [61(2)] 505 509 ^
^ Bio-Medical Engineer, Work [61(2)] 694 5915 ^
^ Neuropsychiatric Institute, Mobile 019 992020 ^
^ Prince Henry Hospital, Fax: Work [61(2)] 694 5747 ^
^ Little Bay, N.S.W. 2036, ^
^ Australia. Email: A.Aniss@unsw.edu.au ^
^_______________________________________________________________________^
=END=
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 23:15:15 -0600
To: TLCULHANE@aol.com
From: Steve Jordan
Subject: Re: Center of Worship
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Terry:
First let me put in a disclaimer. I have been inactive in the faith for the
past few years but recently realized that all my core beliefs stem from the
Baha'i Faith, so am studying, reading, and working at becoming active again
(BTW, thanks Talisman). Anyway, I don't feel I am in the most informed
position to argue this, but will anyway. That said, I must agree with you
totally that we need to build Houses of Worship in the USA.
I have been attending a Unitarian Universalist church that started out
meeting in a run down metal office building. The people of the fellowship
had already purchased land and were completing plans for a new building
when I started attending. The attendance at this church was a pretty steady
30 to 40 people at that time. Once the new building was built, attendance
and support for the church grew tremendously - so much so that they outgrew
their building within two years after it was built.
Using the model of this UU church, it serves people from several different
suburban communities (approximately 10 - most within 10 miles of the
church). If you were to try to build a church in each community, you
couldn't do it. There are just not enough UU's to go around (I would
estimate that the UU population is roughly the same size as the Baha'i
community). What I am getting at is: Why not combine resources of several
communities and build a central House of Worship for each area. Let there
still be LSA's in each community, but if you take 8 or 10 communities with
8 to 10 people in each and pool resources, you will have 80 to 100 people
supporting a House of Worship.
Americans need a symbol, a building, something concrete (so to speak).
Meeting in homes and Baha'i centers does nothing for the image or
visibility of the faith. We live in a materialistic society and in order to
break through that barrier we need to have something to first get folk's
attention. In my opinion, entry by troops will not happen until there is
an active, vibrant House of Worship serving each community.
Regards,
Steve
=END=
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 23:34:52 -0600
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Bruce Burrill
Subject: Re: Hermeneutics
.> Eisegesis is the recognition that, in order to interpret texts, the
>reader will inevitably be influenced by her or his a priori assumptive,
>or metatheoretical framework. OTOH, exegesis simply refers to deriving
>meaning from the text using any one of a number of methods.
>
Merriam-Webster: eisegesis: the interpretation of a text by reading into it
one's own ideas.
This is how I used the word.
There is no need to make this any more complicated than it is.
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 00:47:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand
To: Burl Barer
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Conference on Iran.
Dear Dr. Burl. Thank you for your message. Just thought to inform you
however that i am a Miss and not a Mr. An honest mistake in the age of
cyber technology!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And just for fun, the name means
WINK in Persian. Also, thought i wish i worked at the Institute for
Conflict Analysis and Resolution, i must admit i am a mere Master's
student, but give me a few years and say some prayers ........
(p.s. i won't tell Linda what you said! Don't want to cause any conflict
at Bosch or anything. But, if any arise, please give me a call, i need
all the experience i can get in applying my conflict resolution skills to
actual real life conflicts!)
By the way, i have always wanted to write and ask you what your book is
about. Will you let me know please?
have a good day.
Cheshmak
=END=
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 23:56:35 -0600
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Bruce Burrill
Subject: Re: Dialog, Arguments and Quarrels
Richard Logan,
What you be kind enough to draw out what you are saying here in terms of my
argument. This seems a bit oblique.
>I don't believe modern theological scholarship holds with what you are
saying because a "cross-cultural higher criticism" so to speak, is gaining a
great deal of acceptance in intellectual circles albeit in the more radical
ones. I have no complaint with traditional cultural based forms of
scholarship but it seems that they start from the premise that there is not
an underlying view as "Humans" that has actuated the diversity and that we
should some how be seeking the "right view" which from where I stand (No
offence intended) is Quixotic. I believe everyone is in a relative position
to reality--this does not mean that nothing is discoverable but that we
should not be attached to our own view in order that we may grow in
understanding.
>
Bruce
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 01:12:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: Steve Jordan
Cc: TLCULHANE@aol.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: 19 Houses of Worship by 2006
Many thanks to Steve Jordan for his insightful comments on Terry's key
message.
Friends, whatever we have been doing in the US since 1979 or so *is not
working*. The fireside system, with occasional mass teaching projects
on the side, is barely giving us a stable number of
Baha'is, once you factor in deaths and withdrawals; the biggest part of
our growth in the past 17 years has been from the immigration to this
country of 12,000 Iranian Baha'is, bless their souls. In terms of real
growth through teaching, we can't have been growing by more than a few
hundred a year in the past decade and a half, net.
The biggest drawback in our current system of teaching is lack of local
Houses of Worship, which Baha'u'llah commanded us to build in every town
and village 123 years ago, and which we have not built. A local House of
Worship would be a place to stage weekly worship services that included
the music and singing that Jackson reminded us are key to Baha'i
devotions. Persons interested in the faith but too shy or diffident to
call themselves seekers at present have no way to ease into the Faith.
They only have the choice of actively going to a private home where it
will be assumed they are there to be taught the Faith. But if we had
local Houses of Worship persons not comfortable with this could
nevertheless come to a worship service and sit in the back pew for a couple
of months, before beginning to stay for receptions and becoming and active
seeker. Having Houses of Worship open to the public would make us begin
thinking about how joint worship on a regular basis can be *enabled*
through music, singing, and other sorts of performance (chanting mystical
poetry, dhikr, even skits). Feast is essentially a business meeting in
most communities. Firesides are usually small gatherings in a private
home. These two forms of meeting are not good training for establishing
a performative worship tradition that might actually attract seekers.
Local Spiritual Assemblies very seldom have the wherewithal to buy or
build a House of Worship. One problem is that there is not an obvious
administrative structure under which several LSAs could cooperate in such
a venture. And some attempts at this sort of thing, as in Northern
Virginia, have faltered because of the inability of LSAs to cooperate
over the long run (a House of Worship is inevitably closer to some
communities than others, so that the more distant communities sometimes
become disaffected, and the entire project collapses).
This problem of grouping LSAs for the building of local Houses of
Worship, however, could be resolved by leadership on the part of the NSA,
which has been sadly lacking. Six LSAs could be simply *given* a joint
goal and the NSA could use its enormous prestige and authority to
resolve any conflicts that arose. Instead, plots of land actually bought
by communities are sitting idle because of a lack of local cooperation
and lack of national leadership.
Of course, the other need as a grounding for teaching is spiritual
entrepreneurship. Baha'is must be encouraged to build up communities, to
employ their talents for the benefit of the Faith. In fact, all too
often Baha'i spiritual entrepreneurs are stopped in their tracks by an
overly centralized Administration. Projects like *Dialogue*
magazine could have been very powerful teachers of the Faith, but were
pounced on by jealous bureaucrats in Wilmette. Baha'is not only are
beggars without any local houses of worship, forced to meet in private
homes, but they have not been able to use modern media
effectively--magazines, mainstream books, video, the sort of media that
address large audiences in a literate, largely middle class society such
as the US. There are *structural* reasons for our inability to employ
these media or to erect or buy local Houses of Worship. And without a
local House of Worship, there is no way to direct people to regular
Baha'i worship ceremonies by *using* the media. We are disembodied and
voiceless.
The US community has been virtually stagnant for at least a decade and a
half. The last time we grew impressively was the 1970s (when we
quadrupled numerically), but that appears to have been the result of
outside factors--the coming of age of the Baby Boomers, their revulsion
at the Vietnam War and Watergate, the civil rights movement, and a moment
of openness among Southern rural African-Americans. I saw no evidence
that the opportunities of the 1970s were fully taken advantage of by the
Administration, and I think the opportunity for entry by troops in the
South was botched.
But the sad fact is that we are not in a demographic or cultural or
political moment that favors Americans seeking us out. If anything is to
happen, it will have to be at our initiative. And current Baha'i
administrative practices have the effect of thwarting individual
initiative and creativity.
So let's try a different tack. Instead of unreachable and unrealistic
goals such as entry by troops, or dry administrative goals such as
establishing new LSAs, or a continuation of the policy of aiming at large
numbers of very small, resource-poor communities of 40 or so, why don't we
formulate a new goal? What not aim for 19 local Mashriqu'l-Adhkars
completed by the year 2000? And why not put the full authority of the NSA
behind the formation of LSA consortiums for this purpose? Once we have t
hese key *spaces* for spiritual initiative, which will in and of themselves
anchor congregations, we can hope to build larger communities around them.
Providing these communities with suitable liturgical materials that will
lift hearts, such as Stephen Lambden's translation of *Halih Halih Ya
Bisharat* and John Walbridge's translation of *The Deathless Youth*, and
similar *intellectual* and spiritual initiatives, will follow naturally
upon the establishment of 19 Mashriqu'l-Adhkars. Then we will see the
need for more concerted deepening, and the role of Baha'i scholars, who
are now often isolated and under-used, will begin to become clear.
Sometimes complaints are heard that Talisman is mostly hot air with
little practical result. I don't believe that true. I believe a
community of deepening has been erected in cyberspace. And the Mysticism
conference is among its first practical fruits in ordinary space. But
would it not be a wonderful practical step for us all to promote the goal
of 19 Mashriqu'l-Adhkars around the country? Would it not be wornderful
to drive around the country and visit these physical manifestations of
our spiritual yearnings, a decade hence? That would be a real, practical
result for Talisman.
cheers Juan Cole
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Hermeneutics
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 00:52:31 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Philip and Burl -
Philip, sorry to take up band width here, but I don't have your
email address written down. I saw Burl's pun , after it was resent
by Bruce, so I finally caught on to what you were saying! It may take
me a while, but ....
Honestly, since I started the Baha'i Studies and Baha'i Science of
Reality lists, I have not been reading messages posted to Talisman and
to some of the other lists I am subscribed to as carefully as did in the
past. It is all I can do to keep my head above water.
Burl, how did you discover those documents? As far as I know, I had
destroyed all remaining copies. ;-) Incidentally, I was unable to reject
my null hypothesis because I operationalized "fried" incorrectly. I
discovered, after living in the South for 17 years, that the food must
be *deep fried* with pigs' knuckles in order to produce the visions.
Mark (Foster)
=END=
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 96 23:08 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Hermeneutics
>Mark Foster admitted: "I discovered, after living in the South for 17
years, that the food must be *deep fried* with pigs' knuckles in order to
produce the visions".
>
>
Burl sez: This explains why so few Jews have these visions, proving once and
for all that Christianity is, as my mother used to say, "for the goyim."
>
>
>
>
>
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
Unlimited or from your favorite book store!
ISBN#1-56901-815-4 $19.95 Suggested Retail Price
********************************************************
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 05:57:45 UT
From: "Hannah E. Reinstein"
To: talisman@indiana.edu, "Ahmad Aniss"
Subject: RE: resurrection of Ahmad?
I am happy that at least Quanta has removed her phrase "senseless and
random love ...." from the end of her E-mails. I have to say what a load
of rubbish friends attach to the end of their postings, such examples that I
do not want to reiterate here. Wouldn't it be better just state where you
are from, your e-mail address and contact number, so that we can figure
out where the posting comes from.
I don't know how the rest of you feel, b-b-b-but those are the best parts of
my emails. And they include the all-important book plug. Besides, if I omit
the sig lines, there's nothing left that's really deep :-(
The Artist Formerly Known As Cary
-----------------------------------
"But Eeyore was saying to himself,'This writing business. Pencils and
what-not.
Over-rated, if you ask me. Silly stuff. Nothing in it.'" A.A. Milne
**************************
Buy the WINDOWS NT RESOURCE KIT an inspiring part of which was
written by our very own Hannah Reinstein (under her old name).
Published by Microsoft Press and available at book stores everywhere.
Its gripping drama of TCP/IP parameters, network performance tuning,
and net server installation will hold you breathless with excitement and
suspense until the very end. DO IT NOW!
***************************
=END=
Date: Wed, 14 Feb 1996 23:27:14 -0800
To: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re: Academic disciplining Quanta
And I second that! For I am non-materialistic--- I have nothing, and
non-consumeristic for I have no money to buy anything.. How about that!
How does that classify me?
I was wondering how the "Ahmad--thang was going, and I see he has popped up
again... Aren't they heading into Fall Quarter?
Love,
Margreet...
I know, broke and homeless... lol lol lol
At 10:23 PM 2/14/96 EST, QUANTA DAWNLIGHT wrote:
>Dear BB,
>
>Everything I say and do may not be held against me
>at this time. For, these are my opinions under the
>Constitutional Freedoms to be a fool. I am
>an anti-materialistic, anti-consumeristic person. Hear!
>
>love,
>quanta
>
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 01:50:16 -0600
From: "Mark A. Foster"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Eisegesis and Pigs' Feet
Philip and Burl -
Philip, sorry to take up band width here, but I don't have your email
address written down. I saw Burl's pun , after it was resent by
Bruce, so I finally caught on to what you were saying! It may take me
a while, but ....
Honestly, since I started the Baha'i Studies and Baha'i Science of
Reality lists, I have not been reading messages posted to Talisman and
to some of the other lists I am subscribed to as carefully as did in the
past. It is all I can do to keep my head above water.
Burl, actually I was unable to reject my null hypothesis. I had
suspected that visions would occur with any fried foods. However, as it
turned out, there was no significant difference between pentecostals and
non-pentecostals either in the frequency of visions or in overall
spiritual quality (using a subjective measure of visionary aesthetics I
developed). I found that I had to control on food which was deep fried
with pigs' feet in order to demonstrate variation at a .05 level of
significance.
Mark (Foster)
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 03:04:01 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: 19 Houses of Worship
Dear Juan and all ,
Now there is a goal I can get excited about ! And the thought of
driving around the country to visit such "Houses" and help erect them is my
idea of a summer vacation.
It is worth noting that the Omaha community has just completed the
purchase of approximately an acre of land ; the deal was completed Friday
actualy . It cost us 8500 dollars . What we did was get a list of land taken
back by the County for back taxes and placed a bid . It is located in a
nortrh central part of Omaha which is a racialy diverse middle class
neighborhood on a main residential traffic street.
We have begun developing liturgical / devotional material for worship
services relying heavilly on the provisional translations of our resident
Middle East scholars . Some of this devotional music wil be presented ina
participatory manner at the Mystical Conference at Bosch in NINE DAYS -
YIPPEE ! We think our faire community is an example of the union of
administration with a purpose , Mashriq 's and scholarship .
The second step will be to hold gatherings on the property this spring
and summer as we continue to raise money for the construction of a building .
We have explored a number of options involving sweat equity - a tomehonored
tradition among Mormons , Adventists , Jehovah;s Witnesses and I presume
based on Steves comments possibly Unitarians as well. The cost of these
structures we have contemplated are in the area of 25-30,000 dollars , about
1600 square feet . If we grow faster than anticipated they can be expanded
without much difficulty. That would of course be a wonderful problem to have.
At our present size( 22 adults) and level of financial contributions it will
take us 3 years to raise the money we need to complete the structure . Right
noe we are limited by the number of years banks will finance us - about 5 at
the most. I think there is a role here for Bahais of substantial wealth as
well lending funds to LSA'a over ten year periods for instance. It could
happen sooner if we can convince the Bahais in the metro Omaha area to assist
. So far that has been challenging . We had a community stop sending
contributions to our Academy this fall ( childrens and youth education )
allegedly because of the deficit in the National Fund .
Jackson has a wonderful example of what can be done in his book on
Devotions and the Mashriqu l Adhkar . he recounts a story of Remeys's
travels, as I recall, of a village in Iran consisting of 15 families who
were building a smaller version of the Mashriq in Ishkabad. Remey was amazed
!
I would truly die a happy man if I was able to look back from the dawn
of the new millenium and saw Bahau llahs Aqdas command building those
Dawning Places a reality.
Something tells me the Blessed Beauty would bless such undertakings . This
is where the NSA could, as Juan suggested , lend its prestige and clout to
help make these Houses a reality.
It may be worth noting here the reaction of the youth to this as well .
We have walked on the the land and spoken of what this means - sacred ground
- do you know what that feels like with a group of teenagers to all get
tears in your eyes as you speak and ponder the significance of sacred ground
and sacred space and its their home , the outer manifrestation of the reality
of their souls . It is thrilling ! They can touchand smell the earth , feel
the grass sit by the shade of a tree and know this place is that which the
Guardian described as the place " . . they will irresistibly feel attracted
to seek the shelter of His House , and congregate therein . . to render
homage to the one true God . . and to exalt and magnify the name of His
Messengers and Prophets . This is a safe place , this is home ! Being safe
and home engenders trust and the courage to live and realize the justice that
is at the heart of, and the pre-condition for, the "appearence of unity
amongst men ."
Let at least 19 of these beacons that " ..symbolize the fundamental
verity of the Bahai Faith , that religious truth is not absolute but relative
, that Divine Revelation is not final but progressive " - let at least 19 of
these be built .
Warm regards ,
terry
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:38:07 +0100 (MET)
Subject: covenant
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Arsalan suggests we discuss what the covenant means
try # 1:
The covenant is the constitutional law of the Baha'i community,
it establishes and regulates institutions, provides authorities
and limits, nominates successors and the procedure for nominating
successors.
successive approximations anyone?
Sen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-3216854
Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
and the individuality of each,
thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
From: xavier_echanique@email.fpl.com
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 07:19:23 EST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Jesus2000
Has anyone received any Jesus2000 messages? I have received server
confirmation before 2/5/96, but not a word since. Even the
information address does not respond to my queries...no return mail
either. Am I early in my expectations, too late, or plain wrong?
Warm Regards,
Xavier Echanique
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 02:46:46 UT
From: "Hannah E. Reinstein"
Message-Id:
To: "Burl Barer"
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Dr. Burl
Sender: owner-talisman@indiana.edu
Precedence: bulk
Dr. Burl,
I saw my hermeneutician yesterday afternoon and she said that I was doing just
fine. Now could you or some other kind soul please tell me who it was that I
saw?
Clueless in Seattle
---
PS,
To the Politically Correct, that's "differently clued" or CDS (Clue Deficit
Syndrome).
----------
From: owner-talisman@indiana.edu on behalf of Mark A. Foster
Sent: Wednesday, 14 February, 1996 11:14 AM
To: belove@sover.net
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Dr. Burl
Philip -
Bruce's use of "eisegesis" was not a typo. As contrasted with exegesis
(which simply refers to interpreting specific passages, often implying
that the hermeneutician can discern the intended meaning), eisegesis is
an honest admission that all textual interpretations are made from a
particular viewpoint. Therefore, a Roman Catholic and a Baptist might
interpret a particular verse, different historians a certain historical
event, or a several sociologists a population in quite different ways.
Does that mean that one is "right" and the others "wrong"? Not
necessarily, but some people might want to argue that only a single
interpretation would be acceptable.
To the Light,
Mark (Foster)
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 02:22:58 UT
From: "Hannah E. Reinstein"
To: belove@sover.net, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: When the cat's away....
I've always wanted to be a midwife .
Sorry, couldn't resist it.
Hannah
----------
From: owner-talisman@indiana.edu on behalf of Marguerite K. Gipson
Sent: Wednesday, 14 February, 1996 11:57 AM
To: belove@sover.net; talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: When the cat's away....
Gads, is this the PG one?? And she is going to the Mysticism Conference....
When is her due date? I only hope she is not having that baby while
there.
At 07:51 AM 2/13/96 PST, belove@sover.net wrote:
>
>Hey, everybody, LuAnne just said she is going to unsubscribe while
>she goes off to Sunny California, the land of oranges, dates and the
>Mysticism Conference and now is our chance to talk about her while
>she's gone.
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: The Covenant
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 05:36:50 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Sen McGlinn wrote:
S>successive approximations anyone?
Sen -
I would define the Covenant of God as the manifested Will, Law, and
Love (Linking) of God. IMHO, it is one of the conditions, or "worlds,"
within the Kingdom of Manifestation (the Greater World of Prophethood).
The Covenant is, I think, stepped down to the Kingdom revealed (the
spiritual realm in this world) so that we can consciously choose (will)
to link (love) with God through His Messenger and His successorship.
Likewise, the *power of the Covenant* is, IMV, the Holy Spirit which,
again, steps down to the spirit of faith in those souls which turn to
the Prophet.
To the Light,
Mark (Foster)
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 07:37:20 EST
Subject: GOMBO
Dear Ahmad Appleseed,
This is a GOMBO, get off my back opinion to you.
Farzin is a married man, very happily indeed. So, don't worry.
Ayla, she is twice as tough as her mother, but one foot taller and
has a very mild look which makes her more dangerous because you can
be fooled. Yes! I get my spiritual, social, intellectual, ual after
ual and uals of income from talisman. It is non of your business .
I will write you more letter. But, I get the feeling that I have
cranked up Ahmad's everso materialistic .... which made him jump up
like Jack in the Box. I know how very industrious those Persian men
are. Of course, they have to be to dress up their pretty little
fashionable wives. From time to time they give me their second hand
clothes to wear. I am greatful for that. I recommend you listen to
Barbara Streisand's song "They call me second hand Rose, because all
I have is second hand clothes" She wrote that for me.
Sorry, folks I will come back this evening I have
to go to my temporary clerk the jerk job, so I don't get evicted.
My beloved Persian friends, don't take this seriously. I LOVE YOU!!!
LOVE ....
quanta
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 02:18:36 UT
From: "Hannah E. Reinstein"
To: talisman@indiana.edu,
"Marguerite K. Gipson"
Subject: Crossing Lines
Reflections:
We each determine what the line is for ourselves and what moderation is. For
example, what I'm doing with my life has caused some scornful and threatening
looks from the knuckle-draggers out and about. Going to the supermarket has
occasionally became a drama instead of a routine. That doesn't make me wrong.
I'm in a medically recognized and long-established therapy program to fix what
is essentially a birth defect. And I'm staying in it.
My point is simply that if something is not forbidden in the writings, it's
permitted. Other writers have stated this much better on Talisman recently.
Anything else is between a person and their own heart and also between them
and their Creator.
I do aerobics (Nordic Track) for 30 minutes a day at least six days a week and
follow it with 40 or more sit-ups. I've done as many as 200 sit-ups after the
regular workout. For some people that's immoderate but not for me. Not to
brag but that'd kill some folks I know. At the office, my editor, Kate, has
her back and arms covered with tattoos. Kate's a sweet and extremely
intelligent person who says that getting tattooed is a very spiritual
experience. Different strokes, I say! If it is to her and it hurts no one, who
cares? I envy her courage and individuality. I can appreciate her feelings but
wouldn't choose quite that kind of spiritual experience myself though.
Today, because Baha'i came up in lunchtime conversation, Kate asked me how it
deals with gender issues. I told her that it's considered a medical issue and
otherwise not mentioned. Therefore it's okay. She asked what I'd do if it were
forbidden to change your natural sex and nurtured gender (my words). I paused
for a long moment. Then I said that I wouldn't do it. So she asked what would
I do instead? And I said: "My life would be over." So you see, moderation
isn't a fixed line. My spiritual mother/sister/friend wrote me the other day
that Baha'u'llah knows what is in our hearts and what is right and good for
us. So, if we pray for guidance and yield to the will of God, we'll surely
know what lines we can cross and how far we might go. Whether it's tattoos,
body-building, physical endurance such as marathons or mountain climbing, or
anything else, the principle that applies is simple. Is it good for you? Does
it make you happy? Does Baha'u'llah have anything to say about it? Does it
enhance your human potential? Does it enable you to function better in the
world and contribute your gifts to it? Okay, then go for it.
In the immortal words of the great philosopher, B. McFerrin, "Don't worry, be
happy."
Hannah
-------------
"To live, is to battle with fiends, in the vaults of heart and mind.
To write: that is to sit in judgment of one's self." Ibsen
-------------
"And she said, 'I've swallowed a secret burning thread,
It cuts me inside, and often I've bled.'" - Suzanne Vega
----------
From: owner-talisman@indiana.edu on behalf of Marguerite K. Gipson
Sent: Wednesday, 14 February, 1996 11:54 AM
To: Alec Bourne; talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Tattooless in Seattle (& everywhere?) (fwd)
There is nothing wrong with, IMO, 'enhancing' one's attributes to the
extent of moderation, but to cross that line, is another matter.
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 09:17:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand
To: Steve Jordan
Cc: TLCULHANE@aol.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Center of Worship
Steve Jordan wrote:
>In my opinion, entry by troops will not happen until there is an
active, vibrant House of Worship serving each community.
i think you have said something very important about culture, structure
and their influence on entry by troops. Over the holidays i was back home
in Toronto. I dropped by the Toronto Baha'i Centre which is a beautiful
building donated to the Baha'is by an individual Baha'i. It used to be
the medical museum and it is right in the heart of downtown, near the
university, on a great corner.
Well, anyway, i dropped by to see how things are going. i was informed
that in the past 3-4 months, they had had 25 declarations, several of the
new Baha'is being university students!!!!!! Incredible, if that is not
entry by troops ...............
The other thing though is that the Toronto community from what i remember
is very active and cooperative together. For example i was impressed at
how the Centre has themes for their firesides or 'public discussions' and
the theme lasts several weeks. There is also a real effort to deepen and
consolidate the new believers.
So, i completely agree and wanted to share with you this story to
demonstrate that a Baha'i Centre does make a difference, a big
difference. The other thing is off course the effect on the Baha'i
community itself as well. I saw how the community was brought closer
together as they worked to make the Centre the best it could be.
Dr. Cole has made some very valuable suggestions that should be
considered. Dr. Cole mentioned the lack of LSA cooperation. This is
really too bad and all of us who serve on LSA's should really think about
this and reevaluate the way things are. I was so surprised to sense this
attitude exists in the US. In Toronto, several LSA's have worked together
in the past 4 or so years to organize what they call 'teaching dinners'.
These are 'huge' firesides. i have been to some where there were 200
people, maybe half were friends!!! At one of these, there was 7
declarations! I think the great success of these firesides is that they
are organized collaboratively, held in our beautiful new center, there is
lots of food, music, eloquent speakers and lots of love.
Dr. Cole also said something else which reminded me of the importance of
going out of our communities and reaching out to the masses. I have said
this before on Talisman, that often we are so engrossed in our own little
communities that we forget the message is for the people out there!! Why
are we not more proactive in making a difference outside of the Baha'i
community, and making this a constant endevour. Back home, several LSA's
wrote to their Municiple governments, shared the message of Baha'u'llah
and asked how they could be of service to their city. The response of the
government? To appoint Baha'is to serve on several race relations
committees, education committees etc. This has given the Faith legitimacy
and prestige in the eyes of the city and its government. More importantly
however it has allowed the Baha'is to apply the principles of the Faith
in areas that are needed: race relations, education, interfaith
activities, conflict resolution etc.
Baha'u'llah's Faith is about unity and cooperation, and it is really too
bad if our 'cultures' oppose the principles of our 'Baha'i' culture' and
result in the lack of growth and progress in our communities. If we want
to share the 'healing message' of our Faith, we have to reevaluate our
present lack of cooperation and reach out to eachother and work
diligently in this pursuit.
in His service,
Cheshmak Farhoumand
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 15:45:11 +0100
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: lundberg@algonet.se (Zaid Lundberg)
Subject: Reflections on Translating Original Texts
Dear Talisman,
Some reflections on my questions: I don't know if I am "opening a can of
worms" but this subject must be quite delicate since it deals with the
age-old problem of authority-interpretation-Scripture in the religious world
. . ? Small wonder that the ancient Sanskrit (of the Vedas) still is revered
as the "language of the Gods", that it took centuries to translate the
Vulgata Bible from Latin into the vernacular, and that Muslims despise
translations of the Holy Qur'an. And yet, if missionary work, or poineering,
is to be truly successful (without using the force of the sword but rather
the power of the word) people must have the opportunity to investigate the
truth "independently" (without having to become "exegetes", "philologists",
"Ph.D's" and God knows what!), and thus do the Holy writings have to be
available in a language they can understand. We don't want to "throw pearls
before swine" do we?
Similarly, in the Faith we have the trichotomy of: authority (the Principal
founders and Appointed Successors of the Faith, Hands of the Cause, UHJ,
NSA, LSA . . .), interpretation (the Appointed Successors, UHJ . .etc and
philogically oriented scholars of Arabic/Persian), and the Writings (in
various languages, levels of interpretation, and of diverse significance).
The crucial difficulty seems to be able to maintain the famous "unity in
diversity", to uphold some consensus or "uniformity" of thought/policy etc.
while ensuring a multitude of various levels of understanding, opinions,
feelings, interpretations . . .etc of the masses. The too common alternative
seems to be schism, fragmentation, and sectarianism of which "Christianity"
is the example par excellence . . . 1:st
Reformist-Unitarian-Pentecostal-Sevenday
Adventist-Baptist-Congregational-Trinitarian-Lutheran-Methodist-Swedenborgia
n-Protestant-Orthodox-Liberal-Puritan-Anglican . . . of the Latter Days of
Christ (I am sure he is truly sad to see what has become of his happy message).
Can you imagine, to paraphrase the one-and-only comedian, Omid Jalili, that
we would have "catholic baha'is" and "protestant baha'is"? Or what about
"Baha'is of the Latter Days of Baha'u'llah"?
Shal-OM Shanti Shanti
ZAid Lundberg
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 15:50:42 +0100
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: lundberg@algonet.se (Zaid Lundberg)
Subject: Dann J. May?
Dear Talisman,
I recently read a very interesting and well-written paper in JBS by Dann J.
May entitled *A Preliminary Survey of Hermeneutical Principles Found within
the Baha'i Writings* (vol. 1, no. 3, 1989). In the biographical notes it
says that "Mr. May is currently working on a master's degree in philosophy
at the University of North Texas and plans to pursue a doctorate in
philosophy of religion. His master's thesis is essentially an expanded
version of the article that appears in this journal."
Does anyone know if Dann has an email-adress, or if he has published his
master's thesis or Ph.D. dissertation?
Thank you!
Shal-OM Shanti Shanti
Zaid Lundberg
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 08:39:22 CST
From: Milissa Boyer
Subject: Help Me Uncle Derek and Dr. Burl
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Well Derek and Burl
Since you have helped so many other people on Talisman I turn to you guys
for help. I am very depressed. There was this nice Baha'i guy I
really liked and was corresponding with via email and I thought he really
liked me. Well, to make a long story short, he got my photo and then
dropped me like a hot potato! :( What am I going to do now? Why do even
Baha'i men judge you by your looks and not your faith? Why do men have to
be so damn visually oriented? Am I going to have to find a man who is blind
with no hands???
Does anyone have a desperate cousin or brother out there?
Well sorry to bother you guys.....I guess there are things even Uncle Derek
and Dr Burl can't do. I would even get one of Linda's ninja suits if I thought
it would help!
So delete this message at will, but thanks for letting me vent.
Milissa Boyer
mboyer@ukanvm.cc.ukans.edu
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 15:44:26 +0100
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: lundberg@algonet.se (Zaid Lundberg)
Subject: Re: Questions on Translating Original Texts
Cc: , Juan R Cole ,
"Eric D. Pierce"
Dear Talismanians,
Eric Pierce wrote:
>I would assume this situation with translations of Baha'i texts
>is primarily a practical matter, as it is more difficult to find
- snip -
But Juan wrote:
>I think the current policy of making translators into other languages use
>the English text as their basis rather than the original should be
>rethought. It is an example of an attempt to achieve consistency and
- snip -
>You may be interested to know that translators do not always abide by
>this rule.
- snip -
>Unfortunately, this sort of rule has been made for bureaucratic
>considerations, without any consultation of professional academics and
>translators.
However, Don Calkins wrote to Juan:
>I have been told otherwise, tho' I don't have any documentation at hand. I
>was told that Shoghi Effendi initiated the policy in the 30's because of the
>poor translations being made into the European languages from the original of
>material which he had translated into English.
>
>As far as changing the policy, it appears to me that it has only been
>relatively recently, say the last 10-15 years, that there has been a
>sufficient number of Baha'is with the appropriate background to begin
>re-thinking this policy.
I really appreciate your responses but I am quite dissatisfied and basically
find my questions still unanswered. Eric believes it's for pragmatic reasons
while both Juan and Don talks about a "policy". Juan refers to "the current
policy", "this rule" and "this sort of rule", but I do not have a clue of
what the policy or rule is. What, exactly, is the rule/policy of:
1) translating the writings? Should we, our should we not, use the English
material as the basis?
2) translating the original (Arabic/Persian) texts?
If there is such a rule/policy, what's its origin? Is it a national or
universal rule/policy? Does it have any basis in any of the writings?
To give a clear and concrete example. If we in Sweden were to translate the
Kitab-i-Aqdas into Swedish, should we use the latest official English
version or should we "start all over" by examining the original Arabic
manuscript? Who, in the final analysis, would be able determine if this
translation would be compatible with the English version? . . . I tend to
see Eric's point about practicality!
I re-post my questions in hope that Talisman will try to answer these
questions again. Please note that I am less interested in your OPINIONS of
the questions as I am in the actual FACTS, or lack of facts, pertaining to
the questions:
>I have four questions regarding the translations of original
>(Arabic/Persian) texts:
>
>1) According to Craig A. Volker "most translations into other languages are
>now done from Shoghi Effendi's English translations, rather than from the
>Arabic and Persian originals" (Translating the Baha'i Writings, JBS, vol.2
>no.2, 1989-90, p. 70). If this is so, doesn't it give the English language a
>unique status in the work of translation in the global Baha'i community? Are
>there any statistics on this?
>
>2) Is there any textual basis that translations into other languages (other
>than English) must have Shoghi Effendi's (or other authorized translator's)
>translations as their basis? If so, what's the reference?
>
>3) What's the policies regarding translating directly from the
>(Arabic/Persian) originals?
>
>4) Let's assume that English is the basis for most translations, into which
>language is the writings mostly translated into? Let us for the argument's
>sake assume that it is Hindi, then this would imply three levels of the
>writings: I) Arabic/Persian (original text), II) English (1st level
>interpretation), and finally, III) Hindi (2nd level interpretation). My
>question here is what level is mostly read by the global Baha'i community? I
>assume that it is II) English but are there any statistics on this?
Shal-OM Shanti Shanti
Zaid Lundberg
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 09:13:02 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Dear Dr. Burl, Derek's End: A sequel
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Talisman" , "Burl Barer"
Dear Doctor Burl,
I took notice in your reply to the prince that you may be treating =
patients at Bosch come time for the mysticism conference. I would =
therefore like to inform you that I will be shooting a HI 8 art film =
in the tradition of the cinema verite. A phrase now often used =
loosely to refer to any kind of documentary technique, it originally =
signified a type of 1960s cinema that used lightweight equipment, =
two-person crews (camera and sound), and interview techniques, but I =
have a new wrinkle in mind. As a prominent author I thought you =
might have an interest.
I propose a sequel to Howard's End, the fine adaptation of E.M. =
Forster's, exceptional novel, called Derek's End. It takes place two =
thousand feet above the pacific ocean amid the redwoods of the Santa =
Cruz mountains. A penniless young chap who is a clerk at a =
fashionable metaphysical bookstore and cafe--yearns for the job of a =
feminist fashion designer, after receiving appropriate training at =
the London School of Economics. He studied there with Mick Jagger =
and like a latter-day Walter Mitty- day dreams about success along =
the fashion runways of Paris.
Linda encourages him strongly and advises him to give up the =
clerking job and devise outfits for women with a bold new design for =
cosmetological/Cosmological Matriarchs of the academic stripe and =
otherwise. Later LuAnne another important player shows up pregnant =
and wants to stay the night at Derek's End but that's later.
Anyway there is a struggle for the rightful possession of Derek's End =
and the poor chaps end's up pursued by a mob of howling feminists =
carrying torches--through the fun house at the Santa Cruz =
Boardwalk--through the room of mirrors--and on to the denouement atop =
the ferris wheel. I thought some visual references to great films of =
the past would add ideological substance.
The cast will filled out by an array of intellectuals, =
ne'er-do-wells, mystic's, Dervishes, Gay Liberationists, Sufi=B9s, =
neo-feminists, feminists, ex-hippies, Ninjas, Neo-Platonists, and =
general 60=B9s throw-backs who would do Frederico Fellini proud.
Your Servant
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 09:13:33 PST
Subject: FW: Eisegesis and Pigs' Feet
To: talisman@indiana.edu
On Thu, 15 Feb 1996 01:50:16 -0600 Mark A. Foster wrote:
>Philip and Burl -
>
>Philip, sorry to take up band width here, but I don't have your
email
>address written down. I saw Burl's pun , after it was resent by
>Bruce, so I finally caught on to what you were saying! It may take
me
>a while, but ....
I found that I had to control on food which was deep fried
>with pigs' feet in order to demonstrate variation at a .05 level of
>significance.
>
> Mark (Foster)
A very redemptive posting, Mark. I was worried about you for a bit
and decidedt that you wouldn't be someone I'd invite on a hayride.
There was a time in my own life when I'd thought that my own sense of
humor had been surgically removed in an alien abduction.
Someone recommended a workshop for me called, "Learning to love the
Nerd within."
I was going to pass the reference on to you, but apparently, in your
case, it was only a temporary lapse.
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 02/15/96
Time: 09:13:33
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 07:25:49 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: How many at Bosch for MC?
To: talisman@indiana.edu
---- Begin Forwarded Message
R
Subject: How many at Bosch for MC?
Dear Derek?
How many for the Mystical Conference???
Can you give us/me a number??? Just asking?
adTHANKSvance
Margreet
My dear Curious Margreet.
About 710.5 , the half being the
former Mystic Culhane who for crimes against Cats and Economists is
sleeping in the Tree House, at the last count.No I jest the Campus will
be full but not just with Mystic Wanna bees there are two small progams
running as well so you will see those folks at meal-times and the
center of the entire place the Bookshop/Cafe so behave yourselves
especially Linda. Also you will all be delighted to know on the
Saturday night my dear wife< veteran Tally types will remember her as
spray with water hose, the terrible incident when proclaiming the need
to considor the mystical importance of things , she said my new plants
are more important and doused me with water. I still am shocked over
the total lack of support from Talisman on that one> is going to bake
masses of goodies for us to consume in the Dessert fundraiser, all you
can eat for $5. Since she started this crazy idea it has raised since
July of last year over $15,000 dollars for our new class/seminar rooms
which you can all see in an advanced stage of construction. I believe
the actual count is about 89 and still counting for the Mystic knees
up.
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 15:49:28 +0100
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: lundberg@algonet.se (Zaid Lundberg)
Subject: Collins & Questions on Translating Original Texts
Dear Talisman,
When I wrote my questions on translating original texts I was unaware (but I
was probably not the only one) of what Bill Collins (who I believe is on
Talisman?) writes in his *Bibliography of English-Language Works . . .* On
p. xviii he writes:
"The most important languages to be considered with regard to the question
of translation are Arabic, Persian and English, the first two being
languages of revelation and the latter two being the languages of
interpretation. . . . The prime language for first translation of sacred
writings is English and then from English into other languages (except for
Turkish, Arabic and Urdu which are translated directly from the original
Persian and Arabic). Any translations of sacred texts into English that are
to be used as source text for translation into other languages must
generally be authorized by the Universal House of Justice, which safeguards
the authenticity and correctness of the texts. Such authorization requires a
translation in elevated English style and faithfulness to the original."
Well, one of my questions is answered here, that English is the prime
language for first translation (if Bill is reading this, do you know of any
statistics? Something similar to what you write on p. xxiii "Of all the
literature about the Baha'i Faith ever published, more than 60% of the
titles are in English")
I find the exception mentioned above puzzling. So the Turks and Pakistanis
translate directly from Persian/Arabic into Turkish and Urdu? Why? These are
four quite different languages: Persian and Urdu are Indo-European languages
(translation from Persian to Urdu makes sense), Arabic is Semitic, and as
far as I know, Turkish belongs to the "Altaic" language-group, which is
somewhat related to Hungarian and Finnish. Can someone please help me out here?
I am also equally puzzled of the role of UHJ. Collins develops this theme on
p. xix. where he discusses "Policies" and gives a reference to *Memorandum
on Baha'i Publishing* issued by the UHJ. Are these the policies Juan and Don
where refering to? If anyone has this memorandum, could you please post some
of the relevant parts on Talisman or mail them to me directly?
Finally, Collins further writes that:
"Translation into other languages is done under the auspices of National
Spiritual Assemblies and Baha'i Publishing Trust based upon assessment of
literature needs for particular national and linguistic communities. The
International Teaching Centre has been assignes the duty of examining
literature needs and recommending goal for translation and publication." (p.
xix)
I find the last part especially interesting and would like to hear comments
on the International Teaching Centre and if its has recommended any goals
for translation?
Shal-OM Shanti Shanti
Zaid Lundberg
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 09:57:58 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Dialog, Arguments and Quarrels
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Bruce Burrill" , "Talisman"
>>I don't believe modern theological scholarship holds with what you are
>saying because a "cross-cultural higher criticism" so to speak, is gaining a
>great deal of acceptance in intellectual circles albeit in the more radical
>ones. I have no complaint with traditional cultural based forms of
>scholarship but it seems that they start from the premise that there is not
>an underlying view as "Humans" that has actuated the diversity and that we
>should some how be seeking the "right view" which from where I stand (No
>offence intended) is Quixotic. I believe everyone is in a relative position
>to reality--this does not mean that nothing is discoverable but that we
>should not be attached to our own view in order that we may grow in
>understanding.
Dear Bruce,
Please excuse my evident lack of expository power. I am not sure which
part of this you would like expanded but these various points probably
require a book each. I will therefore try and provide you with an
abstract of the first. I am taking the position ( and please correct me
if I am wrong in my assumptions) that you believe as a member of a
particular Buddhist school that there are normative particulars to the
more Buddosophical aspects of the Tathagatha's teachings that you believe
fall within the confines of a cultural tradition that must, in some
sense, be treated as a standard. Therefore deviations from this by
thoughts presumed to be foriegn, must of a neccesity, be viewed with
suspicion as they are a challenge to the integrity of the orginal vision
and maybe an attempt to co-opt and thus corrupt the orginal intent.
My purpose in co-mingling cross-culturalism or multi-culturalism with
"higher criticism" was to define the Baha'i or perhaps new humanist
approach which recognizes that pluralism can have a center to it, and a
form that though it is conditional and and relative is nonetheless valid
and substantively analytical. Permit me to explain. Because of the
theorization of global philosophers/psychologists/thinkers such as Carl
Jung (The Collective Unconscious), Dane Rudyard (The Planeterization of
Consciousness), and many others; the insistence on the traditional
treatment of thought that has emerged from a culture such as Buddhism
need not be treated as *isolated* from human culture in general. The
theosophists have their own take on this, as do other thinkers, and the
Baha'i Faith. Multi-cultural analysis has become something of a cause
celebre at Stanford University. Culture is the clothing for the human
underneath.
Your Servant
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 07:43:29 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Re: Conference on Iran.
To: burl@bmi.org
---- Begin Forwarded Message
To: Cheshmak A Farhoumand
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Conference on Iran.
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Sender: owner-talisman@indiana.edu
Precedence: bulk
>
>
Cheshmak Farhouma, good natured soul, said:
>
>Also, are there any other Baha'is who are going to this conference.
>Linda, i was so happy to see you will be a presentor and i am so
looking
>forward to meeting you.
>>
>Cheshmak Farhoumand
>Institute for Conflict Analysis and Resolution
>
No wonder Mr. Frahoumand is eager to meet Linda! Look at where he
works:
Institute for Conflict Analysis! Well, Cheshmak -- conflict is her
middle
name, and analysis is her need. We will all do our best to
spiritualize her
at Bosch, but the analysis and resolution will be up to you.
Good luck on your paper. I would offer you advice, but I am not
qualified on
the topic
Burl
My dear Best Friend Burl
I have reason to believe that Cheshmak is a rather nice girl and Linda
is planning to dress her in a black and white lace Ninja suit in
Coventry. She wants them to do a duet tap-dancing to Mantovani claiming
this is the true form of shi'ite dancing. Burl we need to save the
young lady from Linda what do you suggest?
Your best Friend who is sorry he has to run a course at Bosch rather
than come to Walla Walla and speak there in April for you.
Derek
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: burlb@bmi.net
Cc: rabbana@a1.bmoa.umc.dupont.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Re: The Appointed branch
Date: 15 Feb 1996 09:17:40 GMT
> This is a matter of paramount importance and often neglected -- I feel
> that an AABM should *not* serve on an LSA, most especially one to which
> he/she is assigned as an Assistant.
I agree as to its importance. I don't think that AABM's are now assigned
communities of which they are members. At least I hope not. At least since
Mr. Birkland was ABM for Iowa it has not been the case here.
On the larger topic of their use, I think that the LSA's need to be more
aware of them and willing to call upon them. We all grow as we are put into
situations we are marginally equipped to deal with. I believe it is the same
for the AABM's. Some of them will prove to be incompetant and will
ultimately be replaced. But individuals and institutions need to give them
the opprotunity to grow and allow them to be less than perfect at all times.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: DAWNLIQU@fllab.chass.ncsu.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Green hair/tattoo/nosering
Date: 15 Feb 1996 09:17:14 GMT
> Fix my car up real good and hit the
> road after my son graduates in June
Go for it! Didn't Abdu'l-Baha lament that He was unable to spend His time
criss-crosing this land raising the call 'Ya Baha'ul-Abha'? And are we not
called to emulate him?
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 08:30:19 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Dear Dr. Burl, Derek's End: A sequel
To: burl@bmi.org
Dear Doctor Burl,
I took notice in your reply to the prince that you may be treating =
patients at Bosch come time for the mysticism conference. I would =
therefore like to inform you that I will be shooting a HI 8 art film =
in the tradition of the cinema verite. A phrase now often used =
loosely to refer to any kind of documentary technique, it originally =
signified a type of 1960s cinema that used lightweight equipment, =
two-person crews (camera and sound), and interview techniques, but I =
have a new wrinkle in mind. As a prominent author I thought you =
might have an interest.
I propose a sequel to Howard's End, the fine adaptation of E.M. =
Forster's, exceptional novel, called Derek's End. It takes place two =
thousand feet above the pacific ocean amid the redwoods of the Santa =
Cruz mountains. A penniless young chap who is a clerk at a =
fashionable metaphysical bookstore and cafe--yearns for the job of a =
feminist fashion designer, after receiving appropriate training at =
the London School of Economics. He studied there with Mick Jagger =
and like a latter-day Walter Mitty- day dreams about success along =
the fashion runways of Paris.
Linda encourages him strongly and advises him to give up the =
clerking job and devise outfits for women with a bold new design for =
cosmetological/Cosmological Matriarchs of the academic stripe and =
otherwise. Later LuAnne another important player shows up pregnant =
and wants to stay the night at Derek's End but that's later.
Anyway there is a struggle for the rightful possession of Derek's End =
and the poor chaps end's up pursued by a mob of howling feminists =
carrying torches--through the fun house at the Santa Cruz =
Boardwalk--through the room of mirrors--and on to the denouement atop =
the ferris wheel. I thought some visual references to great films of =
the past would add ideological substance.
The cast will filled out by an array of intellectuals, =
ne'er-do-wells, mystic's, Dervishes, Gay Liberationists, Sufi=B9s, =
neo-feminists, feminists, ex-hippies, Ninjas, Neo-Platonists, and =
general 60=B9s throw-backs who would do Frederico Fellini proud.
Your Servant
Richard
My dear Burl
What is this chap Logan talking about who is Derek who went to the
London School of Economics at Bosch. I have been here several years and
there is nobody here who went to LSE or studied with Mick Jagger. I
know you stood next to Mick Jaggar at a Rock Concert. I met the Beatles
before they were famous which doesn't count really.He must be a
disturbed soul should I have his registration cancelled or have him put
in the tree house with that former Mystic Culhane, give me your views.
Warmest Regards
Your best Friend
Derek
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:57:47 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: 19 Houses of Worship by 2006
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Juan Cole" , "Steve Jordan"
Cc: , "Talisman"
>The biggest drawback in our current system of teaching is lack of local
>Houses of Worship, which Baha'u'llah commanded us to build in every town
>and village 123 years ago, and which we have not built. A local House of
>Worship would be a place to stage weekly worship services that included
>the music and singing that Jackson reminded us are key to Baha'i
>devotions. Persons interested in the faith but too shy or diffident to
>call themselves seekers at present have no way to ease into the Faith.
>They only have the choice of actively going to a private home where it
>will be assumed they are there to be taught the Faith.
Wow! I saw that movie and enjoyed its practical and mystical
applications--"Field of Dreams". Terry Culhane is out in a corn field
when an unseen voice says, "If you build it they will come." Terry has
his personal doubts but continues on in the project to the amazement of
all. I want the part of James Earl Jones.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 12:04:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Richard Vernon Hollinger
To: Juan R Cole
Cc: Steve Jordan , TLCULHANE@aol.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: 19 Houses of Worship by 2006
On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, Juan R Cole wrote:
> Local Spiritual Assemblies very seldom have the wherewithal to buy or
> build a House of Worship.
Actually, I think you have pinpointed a more fundemental obstacle to
progress in the Baha'i community, namely, that Baha'i "communities" must
necessarily be equated with the jurisdictional boundaries of LSAs, and
that these, in turn, must follow the boundaries of government
municpalities. In perpetuating this temporary measure implemented by the
Guardian to rationalize the Baha'i adiministrative structure, we are not
only incorporating the irrationalities of the older world order into our
own community structures, we are tying the hand of the believers in their
efforts to develop and sustain true communities.
Since it has long been observed that face-to-face relationships, which are
essential to the development of cohesive communities, cannot be
maintained in groups much larger than 200, I would suggest that Baha'i
"congregations" ought not to be much larger than that. In large
communities like LA and New York, we might have to consider neighborhood
or district "mashriq's," while in other areas several towns might have to
be combined to form a single congregation. In my view, it would be
useful to combine small communities that are in close geographical
proximity to form larger ones, with a single LSA. This would free up
many of the Baha'is from the administrative work that, necessarily, saps
much of the energy of the community.
But the most important thing, in my view, is not to establish hard and
fast rules about what will be done locally. If several communities want
to merge, as several do in central New Jersey, they should be allowed
to. But this should be a local decision, with the impact discussed
widely to inform others who are considering such a move. We need greater
diversity in order to see what works and what doesn't. All we know now
is that, much of what we are doing is not working. And, as the saying
goes, "if you do what you've always done you'll get what you've always got."
Richard
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 12:39:20 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: translation of the Writings
Zaid: Kayf halak al-yawm? Allah'u'Abha!
This policy of translating the Tablets from English into non-Islamic
languages may indeed date back to the Guardian, but the reasons for its
institution may have changed and so it is legitimate to rethink it.
In the 1930s relatively few Baha'is were qualified to carry out scholarly
translations from the original Arabic and Persian. Hypolyte Dreyfus was
among them, and if I am not mistaken his translations are still used in
Francophone communities; many of them were done before the Guardian's.
But in Spanish, German, Czech, Russian, Polish, etc., there were probably
no Dreyfuses, and the Guardian was right to be concerned about
establishing uniform standards and technical terms.
But now those have been established. The translations into English put
out by the House during the past 20 years or so have faced new problems,
as Tablets were rendered that involved very difficult philosophical
technical terms (such as the Tablet of Wisdom) or that involved social
and political terms that had a different meaning in the 19th century than
they do now. Thus, these new translations do contain errors, and it
seems a shame to impose the errors on translators into other languages.
Translation into Arabic, Turkish and Urdu (probably also
Uzbek, Malay, Indonesian and Swahili) can be done from the original because
the technical terms on the whole can be retained, since they tend to be the
same in each of these languages, which have been powerfully influenced by
the Qur'an and Islam. Thus, even a word like "Tablet" (Lawh) would be
the same in each. Ironically, however, contemporary Turkish is being so
radically purged of its Arabic and Persian loan words that it makes
increasing sense *not* to consider it an "Islamic" language, and to group
it instead with Hungarian, Mongolian and Finnish.
Shoghi Effendi's genius was in finding idiomatic English means of
translating those technical terms, and it is not unreasonable to ask
translators in other European languages to consult the English
translation (done by the Guardian or by others in his style) when
translating. However, for Kamran Ekbal of Germany, who is entirely
capable of translating directly from Arabic and Persian into German, to
be denied the option of depending *also* on the original text makes no
sense now. Moreover, a word is not a fixed point, but a spectrum.
Looking at the original text would allow the translator to see which part
of the spectrum the word fell on, and would actually be essential for
accuracy.
The solutions worked out by the Guardian may not be so useful
for Chinese and Japanese, and if we have scholars capable of translating
directly into those languages from Arabic and Persian, they should be
allowed to do so and encouraged to resolve the translation problems in a
way idiomatic to those languages.
I do not think multiple translation traditions in any way threaten the
unity of the Faith; in fact, multiple translations help us recover the
original more fully. The Baha'i Faith is not like Protestantism, based
solely on scripture; its Covenantal unity derives from legitimate
succession of authority, from Baha'u'llah to `Abdu'l-Baha, thence to
Shoghi Effendi, thence to the Universal House of Justice. Whether taqdir
is translated "predestination" or "decree" is not a matter of such
importance as to threaten Baha'i unity.
This business of keeping in place policies of the 1930s forever really
has to be re-examined, you know. Things do change.
cheers Juan Cole, History, University of Michigan
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 13:01:44 EWT
From: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: how mystical can this be?
To: talisman@indiana.edu
First, thank you, Jackson for your posting. I second Terry's suggestion that
Talismanians read your book if they have not already done so. It is a very
important book and should be on the "must read" list of Baha'i books.
Chesmack, you should be coming to this conference at Bosch. Such a spiritually
uplifting (a delicately put message to our ever-sensitive Derek) event it
should be. And no doubt it would provide you with many opportunities to
resolve conflicts. If you do not come, it may be that the only way to avoid
conflict is by putting Burl, Derek, and me in opposite parts of Bosch. Since
Burl suggested putting me to sleep, I would like to suggest in turn that he be
placed in the fountains with the water on. I am surprised anyone is going to
show up at this conference. Surely, Derek and Burl have done nothing to put
people in the proper frame of mind. If Burl thinks that his "I see Jesus" line
is going to convince people of his mystical bent, I think he needs to read more
Talisman postings and learn something.
Arsalon, you will note the weakness of Derek's argument against me. Since when
does my decking 3 monks mean that I don't know a crook when I see one? Linda
=END=
From: Rick Schaut
To: "talisman@indiana.edu"
Subject: RE: Re: The Appointed branch
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:17:00 -0800
Dearest Talizens,
First allow me to point out that Ahang is precisely correct
in his estimation regarding the function of members of the
Appointed branch of the Administrative Order. In this
country, at least, this is an under-developed aspect of
the design carried out by Shoghi Effendi and elaborated
upon by the Universal House of Justice.
Regarding the future of these institutions, allow me to
quote a portion of the December 31, 1995 letter from
the Universal House of Justice. After outlining the broad
strokes for the Four Year Plan, the letter discusses the
substance of the consultations which had taken place:
"Towards these ends, the work of the Continental Counsellors must assume
new dimensions. Thus, at their conference, they have been deliberating on
such matters as:
- Developments in the mode of the functioning of the Continental
Boards of Counsellors."
I simply can't believe that this issue is limited to increasing
the number of members of the Auxiliary Board for Protection
to be equal to that of the Auxiliary Board for Propagation. By
extension, changes in the "mode of the functioning of the
Continental Boards of Counsellors" will involve the functioning
of the members of the Auxiliary Boards and their assistants.
The precise details of these changes are likely to be rolled
out over the next few months in preparation for the onset of
the Four Year Plan.
Warmest Regards,
>Rick Schaut
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 12:56:00 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: Alex Tavangar
Subject: Re: 19 Houses of Worship by 2006
Dear All:
The challenges facing the U.S. Baha'i community in reaching a wider audience
and connecting with more hearts (we seem to be able to have an easier time
connecting with people's heads) are both current and long-standing issues
which we have been grappling with for many years.
Excluding Juan's by now predictable diatribes against Baha'i administration,
I think his post on this issue touches on a number of topics that although
not new, deserve continued exploration among Baha'is. For this I would like
to thank Juan and others that will contribute to the development this thread.
As focus will often dictate our direction of travel (much like headlights at
night) I would like to comment on a few of Juan's observations and
suggestions in order to help widen the focus of this discussion.
>The biggest drawback in our current system of teaching is lack of local
>Houses of Worship, which Baha'u'llah commanded us to build in every town
>and village 123 years ago, and which we have not built. A local House of
>Worship would be a place to stage weekly worship services that included
>the music and singing that Jackson reminded us are key to Baha'i
>devotions. Persons interested in the faith but too shy or diffident to
>call themselves seekers at present have no way to ease into the Faith.
Houses of Worship, or in their current evolutionary stage, Baha'i centers
are indeed instrumental in reaching a certain segment of the population.
Our recent purchase of a Baha'i center in Philadelphia clearly attests to
the validity of this statement. Not only are the public more inclined to
stop-by and ask questions, but the media has also been a lot more willing to
cover various events held at the Center which they consider to have a local
story angle. Childrens classes are also drawing students from non-baha'i
families that like the Baha'i approach to moral education, etc.
We should be mindful however, that an important reason for our additional
media coverage is the enthusiastic, hard work and advance planning by a
number of dedicated friends on our public relations and media committee.
The success of our children's classes is likewise due to another group of
wonderful friends who have dedicated themselves to the education of our
children. This dedication is in turn nurtured, recognized and supported by
the Philadelphia LSA as well as the surrounding sister communities (ours is
a multi-community center with some important help from the dear San
Francisco LSA).
So you see, the building without the enthusiastic participation of the
Baha'is would not only not assist in our wider recognition and development
but in fact be a heavy burden that can put serious strains on a community if
it is not ready to meet all the financial and administrative challenges that
a Baha'i center presents. In addition to his command for establishing
Houses of Worship, Baha'u'llah also commanded, exhorted, and pleaded with us to
" Possess a pure, kindly and radiant heart, that thine may be a sovereignty
ancient, imperishable and everlasting," (first Arabic Hidden Words)
or
" Occupy thyself, during these fleeting days of thy life, with such deeds as
will diffuse the fragrance of Divine good-pleasure, and will be adorned with
the ornament of His acceptance. ... This is the day whereon all peoples
should shed the light of unity and concord. In brief, the pride and vanity
of certain of the peoples of the world have made havoc of true
understanding, and laid waste the home of justice and of equity."
(Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, page 76)
and,
" Say: Teach ye the Cause of God, O people of Baha, for God hath prescribed
unto every one the duty of proclaiming His Message, and regardeth it as the
most meritorious of all deeds."
(Gleanings, page 278)
None of these exhortations are conditioned upon a set place or building.
Although I am an advocate of establishing Baha'i Centers where our resources
allow, I am also keenly aware of the apathy and lethargy that have many
individuals and communities in their suffocating clutch. Enlightened
scholars that are set ablaze with the love of the Abh'a Beauty can play a
crucial role in ridding us of these demons and help us rekindle the fire of
love and unity for our faith and fellow sojourners in our hearts.
>Local Spiritual Assemblies very seldom have the wherewithal to buy or
>build a House of Worship. One problem is that there is not an obvious
>administrative structure under which several LSAs could cooperate in such
>a venture. And some attempts at this sort of thing, as in Northern
>Virginia, have faltered because of the inability of LSAs to cooperate
>over the long run (a House of Worship is inevitably closer to some
>communities than others, so that the more distant communities sometimes
>become disaffected, and the entire project collapses).
>
>This problem of grouping LSAs for the building of local Houses of
>Worship, however, could be resolved by leadership on the part of the NSA,
>which has been sadly lacking. Six LSAs could be simply *given* a joint
>goal and the NSA could use its enormous prestige and authority to
>resolve any conflicts that arose. Instead, plots of land actually bought
>by communities are sitting idle because of a lack of local cooperation
>and lack of national leadership.
>
The problem of distance and resulting disaffection will still exist. Baha'i
Centers are very taxing, both financially and spiritually. To have the
spiritual/emotional tools to deal with these issues, the overwhelming
majority of the impetus must come from the local community and not be
dictated by the central administration. If you think we have problems now,
just reflect on the scenarios of disaffected communities that have
difficulty supporting their Center and those who don't like to subsidize
another community's House of Worship while they have their own perfectly
legitimate project.
>But the sad fact is that we are not in a demographic or cultural or
>political moment that favors Americans seeking us out. If anything is to
>happen, it will have to be at our initiative. And current Baha'i
>administrative practices have the effect of thwarting individual
>initiative and creativity.
>
Both as individuals and communities we are constantly encouraged to follow
our own initiative in various arenas of service such as teaching, education,
financial development, social and economic development and so on. I don't
know of a single -selfless- initiative that was thwarted during my 22 years
of living in this country as a Baha'i. Many of those years I was called to
serve on both the elected ("Rulers") and the "Learned" branches of Baha'i
administration.
The historic pattern within the Faith has been to thwart initiatives that
tend to give rise to personal notoriety or influence, or consciously or not,
tend to be divisive in any way shape or form. This is a different topic
that can be explored separate from the issue of teaching and expansion.
I can understand being excited or passionate about an idea or approach that
we may have for the development of our beloved Cause. We are free to
implement our ideas ( if they are within the Baha'i norm as ultimately
determined by the UHJ) within the sphere of individual initiative. If
however, we wish to inspire others (both individuals and institutions) to
adopt our vision, we would be wise to follow Baha'u'llah's counsel:
" Every word is endowed with a spirit, therefore the speaker or
expounder should carefully deliver his words at the appropriate time and
place, for the impression which each word maketh is clearly evident and
perceptible. The Great Being saith: One word may be likened unto fire,
another unto light, and the influence which both exert is manifest in the
world. Therefore an enlightened man of wisdom should primarily speak with
words as mild as milk, that the children of men may be nurtured and edified
thereby and may attain the ultimate goal of human existence which is the
station of true understanding and nobility. And likewise He saith: One word
is like unto springtime causing the tender saplings of the rose-garden of
knowledge to become verdant and flourishing, while another word is even as a
deadly poison. It behoveth a prudent man of wisdom to speak with utmost
leniency and forbearance so that the sweetness of his words may induce
everyone to attain that which befitteth man's station."
(Tablets of Baha'u'llah, pages 172-173)
>So let's try a different tack. Instead of unreachable and unrealistic
>goals such as entry by troops, or dry administrative goals such as
>establishing new LSAs, or a continuation of the policy of aiming at large
>numbers of very small, resource-poor communities of 40 or so, why don't we
>formulate a new goal? What not aim for 19 local Mashriqu'l-Adhkars
>completed by the year 2000? And why not put the full authority of the NSA
>behind the formation of LSA consortiums for this purpose? Once we have t
>hese key *spaces* for spiritual initiative, which will in and of themselves
>anchor congregations, we can hope to build larger communities around them.
>
I would like to see more discourse on the idea of NSA mandated Houses of
Worship.
Having the fresh experience of establishing a Baha'i Center in Philadelphia,
I do think that a focused program on the part of the national Baha'i
community for development and training and networking (traditional as well
as computer networking) of the localities with Baha'i Centers would greatly
increase their value as teaching, consolidation, education, and community
outreach tools (and other functions).
The goal of entry by troops does not necessarily need to be counter to the
establishment of Baha'i Centers. Communities with the potential (financial,
administrative, and spiritual [i.e. unity]) to purchase or build their own
centers can utilize this resource to greatly increase their membership.
Any goal, however small will be unachievable if it is not supported
wholeheartedly and with abundant enthusiasm.
The Baha'i communities dotting the globe (groups and LSA's) have been and
are performing a very vital role in the development and protection of our
Faith. I would not be so quick in dismissing this important -and- very
successful enterprise. Adopting a new important goal need not negate others.
The unique opportunity afforded almost every individual Baha'i to serve on
administrative bodies such as LSA's has served as important training at the
grassroots level. We will continue to reap the benefits of this training
for years to come both within the U.S. and globally as pioneers take up
their posts abroad.
>Providing these communities with suitable liturgical materials that will
>lift hearts, such as Stephen Lambden's translation of *Halih Halih Ya
>Bisharat* and John Walbridge's translation of *The Deathless Youth*, and
>similar *intellectual* and spiritual initiatives, will follow naturally
>upon the establishment of 19 Mashriqu'l-Adhkars. Then we will see the
>need for more concerted deepening, and the role of Baha'i scholars, who
>are now often isolated and under-used, will begin to become clear.
>
I'm not sure how to express my immediate thoughts about this snip. For one,
the only "suitable" liturgical material mentioned are provisional
translations by individuals (as opposed to a group of scholars). Are the
current body of Baha'i materials not suitable? How does the establishment
of 19 Mashriqu'l-Adhkars naturally bring about the use of individual
provisional translations as opposed to the "official" Baha'i scripture?
>would it not be a wonderful practical step for us all to promote the goal
>of 19 Mashriqu'l-Adhkars around the country? Would it not be wornderful
>to drive around the country and visit these physical manifestations of
>our spiritual yearnings, a decade hence? That would be a real, practical
>result for Talisman.
>
I clearly see the establishment of Baha'i Centers and their evolution into
full fledged Mashriqu'l-Adhkars as an important step in the development of
our Baha'i communities. Perhaps one approach for making this effort more
achievable in the near-term would be to establish a national endowment for
the establishment of these centers. Communities can then apply for grants
and other support from this endowment, and once qualified can receive
financial help as well as organizational training in the establishment of
their local House of Worship. In this manner, local initiative and
commitment can be rewarded and supported by all Baha'is on a national level.
Warmest Regards,
Alex B. Tavangar
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 13:14:46 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: translation of the Writings
Many thanks to Juan for his excellent posting on current policies of
translation. Rather than blindly following the policies and practices of the
Guardian, which may have been developed under circumstances which have
entirely changed, it is always good to inquire about the underlying reasons
for such policies.
I am familiar with some efforts to translate the Writings into Spanish and
into Japanese. It should not be imagined that the current policies of the
House about using the English as the basis of translation are so strict as
not to allow the translator to consult the original text, if he is literate
in Persian and Arabic. The House has been queried on this
point--particularly with regard to Japanese translations--and has replied
that it is permissible to consult the text in the original language. Of
course, any other answer would have been absurd.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 13:21:05 -0500
To: lundberg@algonet.se, Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Questions on Translating Original Texts
Dear Baha'i Friend:
The questions you are asking concerning the translation of Baha'i texts
into local languages are more appropriately directed to the Baha'i World
Center. They do have clearly defined policies and policy statements on these
matters, and I am sure that they would be happy to send them to you. Then
you can post them on Talisman. :-)
Tony
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:19:59 -0800
To: Milissa Boyer ,
talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re: Help Me Uncle Derek and Dr. Burl
Dear Milissa, This is Dr. Margreet. Move on girl, move on. Don't even
waste one ounce of energy on such a shallow man... And you don't want to be
with a 'desperate man' either. They just will marry any one... not looking
at any of the qualities, then be constant complainers of what type of person
you are,--always the opposite of what really is there, and will never have
or work at a happy marriage.
There are some good men out there. Just where, I have no clue. The funny
part of the shallow men I have met, is that they ask for certain qualities
for a mate. A friend who knows me suggested this man contact me, since I
was all those, or near all of those qualties he was asking for. The date
did not last 20 minutes, as I could tell, he couldn't recognize a 'decent'
women if it slapped him. Gads, I wanted to!
Some will never learn, and will remain single, for not looking past the
physical. Not all of us have that "glamore-model, male/female, cover
magazine" look to us. We have much more to offer--our wonderful
personalities, and our fantastic characteristics than just looks. I have
some "beautiful" friends. But I can't stand to be around them for more than
15 minutes, because they don't have anything of interest beyond the looks.
I hope this helps.. It will be interesting to find out what Dr. Burl and Dr.
Derek have to say about all this.
Dr. Margreet ( no, I have a license to discuss men...been thru enough of
them to qualify)
At 08:39 AM 2/15/96 CST, Milissa Boyer wrote:
>Well Derek and Burl
>
>Since you have helped so many other people on Talisman I turn to you guys
>for help. I am very depressed. There was this nice Baha'i guy I
>really liked and was corresponding with via email and I thought he really
>liked me. Well, to make a long story short, he got my photo and then
>dropped me like a hot potato! :( What am I going to do now? Why do even
>Baha'i men judge you by your looks and not your faith? Why do men have to
>be so damn visually oriented? Am I going to have to find a man who is blind
>with no hands???
>
>Does anyone have a desperate cousin or brother out there?
>
>Well sorry to bother you guys.....I guess there are things even Uncle Derek
>and Dr Burl can't do. I would even get one of Linda's ninja suits if I thought
>it would help!
>
>So delete this message at will, but thanks for letting me vent.
>
>Milissa Boyer
>mboyer@ukanvm.cc.ukans.edu
>
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 12:46:02 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Black History Month
Fellow Talismaniacs:
For those of you who have America Online, do click the rainbow icon for Black
History Month when it shows up on your welcome screen. This will take you to
NetNoir (Keyword: NetNoir). I have been writing a series of mini-lessons on
African-American history--one per day--that are featured this month. The
graphics are great. Hope you enjoy them. Earlier ones are archived in BHM
Archives on AOL.
Regards,
Tony
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: CaryER_ms@msn.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Re: resurrection of Ahmad?
Date: 15 Feb 1996 10:46:03 GMT
> those are the best parts of
> my emails.
I wouldn't go that far; but I got a few chuckles when I posted your
'veni,vidi,velcro' to the local humour files.
All the regulars on Common Link know I'm a Baha'i, and I regularly forward
material to the humour files area here, occaisonally noting that it has come
from a Baha'i conf. We have several socials a year, so I have had a chance
to meet many of the 'kids' on Common Link. Several of them have been shocked
to learn I'm old enough to be their father or possibly grandfather. Members
are encouraged to bring families to the socials, and I know that several of
the members have told their family members after seeing me that I'm a Baha'i.
I think the combination of my posts to the humour conf, to the 'Debate' conf
often with references to the Writings, and to the Mac and Internet tech confs
has made me, and by extension the Faith, human.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: Hermeneutics
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 12:07:58 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Hannah, Philip, and Richard -
Hannah, Some people say "hermeneutist," but, as we know, any form of
neutism is contrary to the spirit of the Baha'i Teachings .
And thanks for the vote of confidence, Philip. I used to be one of
the main punsters among the Baha'is on Long Island. I stopped after I
realized that many people found me quite annoying. As you can see above,
I really haven't learned my lesson. ;-)
Regarding LSA boundaries: I know of at least one Baha'i community
which includes numerous incorporated villages.
Mark (Foster)
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 13:39:12 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: The Covenant
Well, I have to agree with Mark (though I am not sure what he said) that the
Covenant in the Baha'i Faith is more fundamental than being just a
constitutional matter. It is really basic, and perhaps corresponds more to
the idea of the "social contract" in constitutional theory.
There are certain documents in the Baha'i Faith that are constitutional
(the Kitab-i 'Ahd, the W & T of 'Abdu'l-Baha, and so forth) but the idea of
the Covenant defines why these documents exist in the first place. It is the
fundamental notion of their being a relationship between God and humanity
(the Greater Covenant) and between the individual and the Baha'i community
(the lesser Covenant). Both of these relationships, in Baha'i teachings, are
based on the voluntary agreement of the individual to a Covenant.
The lesser Covenant--the one that Baha'is are usually concerned
with--establishes the spiritual unity of the Baha'i community, with the
appointment of a central authority to which all Baha'is must turn,
acknowledging its legitimacy to speak for the community as a whole. Extreme
interpretations of this Covenant hold that, therefore, no one else can speak
at all--the community must remain in silence while the Center alone has a
voice.
I believe that this view is explicitly repudiated in the Writings. The
strength of the Lesser Covenant, in my view, is that it provides for the
unity of the community by establishing a central authority which all must
acknowledge and respect, and thereby allowing all voices to be heard without
threat--since none of them can claim any priority over any other.
So, my view of the Covenant allows for complete intellectual freedom and
freedom of speech--yes, even freedom to contradict the Center of the Faith,
if one does so respectfully--without fear. Since one's opinion is always
one's own and cannot make a claim of allegiance on anyone else, all the
contradictory facets of a complex truth can be fully explored. The voice of
the Center of the Faith--of the Manifestation, of the Center of the Covenant,
of the Guardian, of the House of Justice--must all be acknowledged. But
these voices do not exhaust the meaning of reality--the interpretations of
Shoghi Effendi, for instance, do not exhaust the meaning of the Holy Text.
So a thousand flowers may bloom :-) and the Covenant should protect all of
them.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 13:55:32 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: 3-Yr Plan Crash and Burn
Yes, let's start a drumbeat. Stagnation caused by no worship and no Houses
of Worship and no access to the mainstream media because of censorship . . .
oops! restrictive review policies. Stiffling of individual initiative which
the House has decried. Etc.
Sounds like a winner to me.
Tony
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 09:45:01 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: Oh no!
Oh no, not Cheshmak jAn. Don't do it Cheshmak. Watch out for Linda. She will
make you a Shi'ite Ninja fighter. Resist as much as you can. Don't trust
anyone. They have hidden agendas. Just look at all the secret messages they
have been sending to each other.
Your humble defender,
Miserable in Alaska
>---- Begin Forwarded Message
>To: Cheshmak A Farhoumand
>From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
>Subject: Re: Conference on Iran.
>Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
>Sender: owner-talisman@indiana.edu
>Precedence: bulk
>
>>
>>
> Cheshmak Farhouma, good natured soul, said:
>>
>>Also, are there any other Baha'is who are going to this conference.
>>Linda, i was so happy to see you will be a presentor and i am so
>looking
>>forward to meeting you.
>>>
>>Cheshmak Farhoumand
>>Institute for Conflict Analysis and Resolution
>>
> No wonder Mr. Frahoumand is eager to meet Linda! Look at where he
>works:
>Institute for Conflict Analysis! Well, Cheshmak -- conflict is her
>middle
>name, and analysis is her need. We will all do our best to
>spiritualize her
>at Bosch, but the analysis and resolution will be up to you.
>
>Good luck on your paper. I would offer you advice, but I am not
>qualified on
>the topic
>Burl
>My dear Best Friend Burl
>I have reason to believe that Cheshmak is a rather nice girl and Linda
>is planning to dress her in a black and white lace Ninja suit in
>Coventry. She wants them to do a duet tap-dancing to Mantovani claiming
>this is the true form of shi'ite dancing. Burl we need to save the
>young lady from Linda what do you suggest?
>Your best Friend who is sorry he has to run a course at Bosch rather
>than come to Walla Walla and speak there in April for you.
>Derek
>
>
>
>
>
Arsalan J. Sadighi
"You can present the material, but you can't make me care."
Calvin and Hobbs
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: lundberg@algonet.se
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Collins & Questions on Translating Original Te
Date: 15 Feb 1996 12:06:38 GMT
> *Memorandum
> on Baha'i Publishing*
Zaid -
The letter I was referring to that initiated this policy in the 30's was, I
believe, to the European Teaching Committee (?) that was headquartered in
Switzerland. At one time (late 40's?) there was a mimeographed compilation
of letters to them on teaching in Europe, and it may be in there. I have
only seen 1 copy, but it may be in some of the school libraries.
I'm not familiar with the 'Memorandum on Publishing', however there is also a
'Guidelines to the Translation of Baha'i Sacred Writings' that was issued by
the Universal House of Justice. At least part of it is in 'Lights of
Guidance', #368 & 369 of the 2nd and 3rd editions. It contains many of the
points that Juan made.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:10:04 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: The Appointed branch
Well, I could not agree more with Rick and with Ahang.
For a start, I think that the "Institution of the Learned" could actually
be made up of the learned within the community. That is what the institution
is supposed to reflect, isn't it?
Until we get more competent people, more thinking people, more creative
people in these positions, I doubt there will be any change. Right now, they
seem to be appointed because they seem super-orthodox and safe.
I hope that others have had more happy experiences, but in all of my
service on Local Spiritual Assemblies (about 27 years worth) and all my
experience as a Baha'i, I have never seen a working relationship with an Aux
Bd member that was not a waste of time (at best) or an utter disaster (at
worst). All of the Assemblies that I have ever served on have independently
come to the conclusion that it is best to ignore the "institution of the
Learned" and get on with our work. Yes, they can be called upon (if you have
a good speaker) to give an inspirational talk. But that is it, if you want
to get anything done.
Maybe we have just had bad luck in Southern California, but I doubt it.
Tony
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 11:03:17 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Houses of Worship.19 by the year 2006.
To: talisman@indiana.edu
My dear Talismanians.
Glad to see people wanting to improve community life. I happen to feel
if a local community is given the inspiration to go ahead and get its
own place for worship and community life not a Baha'i centre as such.
They and everybody else will be amazed by the outpouring of funds to do
just that. We are only limited by our own vision. If we are united in
the Love of God and allow the Blessed Beauty and the Primal Point to
work through us all things are possible. 19 Houses of Worship we could
have and more before the Year 2000 not 2006 if we are United, I pray we
will be.
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:03:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand
To: LWALBRID@cluster.ucs.indiana.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: how mystical can this be?
Now, now, i seem to sense some potential for conflict here! i wish i
could come to Bosch, but alas .... I think you will all be safe however
if you tried to put your needs and feelings into "I" statements. Such as
"Burl, when you say **** it really makes me *****" . If a long,
consistent, arduous effort toward open communication is not successful,
then as a last resort, the water fountain thing may be a possible and
non-violent way of dealing with your emotions. In which case, then Burl
should first attempt to share with you his needs and feelings before
resorting to other tactics. I suggest he starts, "Linda, when you threw
into that beautiful ornate waterfountain, i felt **** and it made me feel
****".
Have a peaceful and harmonious time. How i really wish i could be there
too.
Love,
Cheshmak
=END=
From: Rick Schaut
To: "talisman@indiana.edu"
Subject: RE: 19 Houses of Worship by 2006
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 11:04:32 -0800
Dearest Talizens,
I'd like to thank Juan, Steve, Richard and Terry for some
very inspiring thoughts on the establishment of the institution
of the Mashriqu'l-Adkar. This has the seeds to become the
most productive discussion I will have been privileged to witness
since joining Talisman. I'l try to be brief as I add a few
random thoughts of my own.
My initial reaction to the idea, I must admit, was aprehension.
Such an undertaking staggers my mind when I think about
how it might be accomplished in the Seattle area. We are
barely taking the first baby steps in inter-Assembly collaboration,
and have still a great deal of work to do just to accomplish our
much more modest goals regarding the establishment of
Baha'i centers. We have much to learn about this process.
In a related vein, the underlying theme of the guidance
from the Universal House of Justice over the past decade
has been to enhance the extent to which local institutions
are able to make their own decisions with wisdom and
maturity. The more recent the guidance, the broader the
principles and the fewer the specific decisions and examples.
So, I wonder, is not possible to outline a few paths which
can lead the communities of a metropolitan area to reach
a state where they are capable of adopting such august
goals on thier own? Certainly, one can outline graduated
levels of collaboration (e.g. begin with media committees,
move to collaborative teaching efforts, then to coordinated
consolidation activities, etc.). These Assemblies need to
learn to walk before they can run. Some of them can
barely crawl.
Moreover, what of the "inner" Mashriq'ul-Adkar of which
Terry speaks? Which of these things can be done in
our communities _now_ to get us started on a path which
leads to the full establishment of this institution, and how
do they relate to the various way points that we note in
answer to the question above? (Actually, I think we'll find
that the guidance contained in the compilation on Entry by
Troops contains the answers to these questions.)
Lastly, I'd like to offer an acknowledgement to Jim Harrison's
exortations that we make a serious effort to rethink a
number of our most closely-held beliefs about the form
and character of our Faith. Nothing short of the dynamic
created by the willingness of Assemblies to listen and
the eagerness of individuals to obey the decisions of
these institutions will establish the unity necessary to
achieve such lofty goals.
Warmest Regards,
Rick Schaut
=END=
From: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 12:54:04 -0600 (CST)
Subject: CATALOG OF TITLES
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Steve, My teaching schedule and current lack of discretionary funds
prevents me from attending the mysticism conference, although I am very
interested in the conference. I miss _Dialogue Magazine_, but Talisman is a
good substitute. I recenty sent you another post with my address and list
of titles that I would like to purchase. I too, enjoyed our meeting at
Bosch. Keep up the good work.
Warmest greetings, Dann May, Philosophy, OK City Univ.
---
* WR 1.32 # 669 * Education is the fundamental method of social progress. D
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 11:19 PST
To: Milissa Boyer
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Help Me Uncle Derek and Dr. Burl
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Melissa Boyer, recently cyber-dumped and depressed turns her tearful
countenance to Dr. Burl, (aka The Handyman because he fixes broken hearts)
and she asks:
Am I going to have to find a man who is blind
>with no hands???
>
This is actually an excellent suggestion. If visuals are really the
problem, begin interaction with men who have successfully adapted to being
visually challenged. Or the next time someone asks for your picture, send
them one but put a large shopping bag over your head in the photo and draw a
face on it. The other really easy way to solve this problem is start dating
men to whom you are not atttracted either. That way you will be on even
footing from the get go. I know men who only date women who don't like them
and are mean to them. The women want a man to be mean to, and the guy want
to be mistreated.
I know women with the same "need." I think you should go on a singles forum
and say "Listen folks: I am really nice, smart, fun, loving, honest, and I'm
not a drunk or a bimbo. You might not care for the surface construction of
some of my minor facial features - we all have different tastes in that
department -- but the more you know me, the more attractive I become and I
will always be faithful in word and deed." If that doesn't work, buy a parakeet.
Dr. Burl
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer is a good book, but Polly Whitney's UNTIL THE
END OF TIME has more pages.
********************************************************
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 11:19 PST
To: "Richard C. Logan"
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Dear Dr. Burl, Derek's End: A sequel
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
>Richard Logan, attempting a complex social commentary crammed into HI-8
with not enough grain to look gritty says:
>The cast will filled out by an array of intellectuals, ne'er-do-wells,
mystic's, Dervishes, Gay Liberationists, Sufi=B9s, neo-feminists, feminists,
ex-hippies, Ninjas, Neo-Platonists, and general 60=B9s throw-backs who would
do Frederico Fellini proud.
This sounds far too ambitious. The plot is reminiscent of "Movie Movie"
with George C. Scott. I suggest less plot, more angst -- sort of AT&T
commericials on downers -- but to make Fellini proud we will have to have
plenty of dwarf (or as we political correted say "little people") actors.
Billy Barty, with whom I have worked before, is great fun, but I don't think
he is coming to Bosch. Derek is too tall, as am I.
But you can do camera tricks to make us look tiny. Actually I want to relax
at Bosch and have no major stress and I may be coming there simply to avoid
having a nervous breakdown. My daughter may come also to make sure I have it
anyway.
Burl
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer is a good book, but Polly Whitney's UNTIL THE
END OF TIME has more pages.
******************************************************** =20
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 11:20 PST
To: Sadra
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Goy Bashing st)
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Nima asks:
>Burl, what do you have against Christainity? This whole notion of "goy" and
>"goyim" is so incredibly racist that it's the one aspect of my jewish
>heritage I absolutely deplore. Meir Kahane, Kach and currently
>the ultra-right wing Kahanehei are using this same "goy" argument to
>justify their venom and vigilante actions against incident Arabs in the
>West Bank -- as did Baruch Goldstein at the Tomb of the Patriarchs 2 yrs
>ago. We are Baha'is, the millenium has come, the Shekinah is no longer
>exiled and Israel ceased being the chosen nation 2000 yrs ago. What gives?
>
>Respectfully yours,
>Nima
>
>Burl replies:
"goy" and "goyim" simply means Gentile, or non-Jew, and is only racist in
the mouths of racists. It is sad that there are anti-Gentile's just as
there are anti-Semites. I am neither, and neither are the vast majority of
Jews. Isaiah was not racist, and as the Midrash says:: "The Holy One
(blessed be He) declares no creature unworthy, but receives them all. Every
moment the gates are open, and whoever seeks to gain entrance, gains
entrance. And thus he says (Isa. 26:2): `Open ye the gates, that the
righteous nation [goy saddik] that keepeth faithfulness may enter in.' It
is not said that priests shall come, that Levites shall come, that
Israelites shall come; but it is said that a goy saddik shall come."
The word "Jew" and "Jewish" are only "insults" when spit from the teeth of
anti-semites. My mother's phrase "Christianity is for the goyim" is not far
from the response from Jews requested by Abdul Baha: to acknowledge Jesus as
Prophet to the Christians.
"I call heaven and earth to witness, that whether one be Gentile (goyim) or
Jew, man or woman, slave or freeman, the divine spirit rests on each in
accordance with his deeds." (Yalkut Shimeoni on Judges, section 42)
The racist examples you mention are in direct conflict with the most
trustworthy source concerning the realistic day-to-day attitude of Judaism
toward other religions -- Jewish legal literature. Polemic publications
might be suspect as having been written for Gentile eyes. Legal literature,
especially legal commentaries, are almost never seen except by Jewish
scholars. This is important because anti-Semites use Jewish legal tradition
in attempts to establish a pattern of official hostility to Christianity,
asserting that Jews are commanded to cheat and destroy Christians. In
reality, the ancient repressive laws were directed against idolaters.
Rabbi Moes Ribkas (1640) states expressly, "Everything which the Talmud says
about the goyim refers to the previous nations, who were idolaters. But the
nations in whose midst we live hold to many of the major tenets of our
religion. They worship the creator of heaven and earth. It is our duty to
pray for their authorities..."
Jewish law quickly indicated that Moslems and Christians were not idolaters
and these older laws did not apply to them. Rabbenu Tam, the great French
authority of the 12th Century says referring to Christians swearing by their
saints in business oaths, "This is not to be deemed idolatry, for they
intend their oaths to be in the name of Him who created heaven and earth."
A still later authority, Israel Lifshuetz of Danzig (18th and 19th
Centuries) says in his commentary to Mishna Baba Kama (chapter 4, note 17),
"Our brethren the Gentiles (goyim), who acknowledge the One God and revere
His law which they deem divine and call it `Holy Writ' observe as is
required of them the seven commandments of Noah."
All of these citations are in small printed commentaries unseen by the vast
majority of Gentiles, and represent not a "public-relations" viewpoint, but
the precise opinion of Jewish law that Gentile monotheistic faiths are also
under a Divine Covenant --The Jews under the Covenant of Sinai, others under
the Covenant of Noah. This, as more than one wry commentator has noted, is
a handy method of provisional acceptance without endorsing any theological
components of Christianity, Islam, or other world faiths beyond the seven
Noachide laws. Yet, for many Jews today, promulgation of awareness of this
universal, binding standard erects a firm foundation upon which unity and
cooperation between all people of all Faiths can be built. As all humanity
is under the Covenant of Noah, no one is left out of God's great universal
plan.
I would caution against conclusion jumping regarding the "chosen people"
position being yanked from Israel -- that would require time travel and
elimination of God's Covenanat. They were chosen to receive the Torah and
be a Light unto the Nations -- guardians of monotheism despite everything.
Israel remains the people of God; the Covenant cannot be nullified.
"Come and see how beloved to the Holy One, blessed be his name, are the
Israelites. Wherever they were exiled, the shekhinah was with them...Even
when they are finally delivered, the shekhinam will be with them"
See ya at Bosch....oh, when do you and others arrive? My daughter is coming
and must arrive on *thursday* -- either around noon or in the evening --
which ever is easiest to get transportation from San Jose to Bosch!
Burl
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer is a good book, but Polly Whitney's UNTIL THE
END OF TIME has more pages.
********************************************************
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 14:02:18 EST
From: Richard Harmsen
To:
Subject: re: questions on translation
Dear Zaid: I'm finding it difficult to restrain myself, though part
of me knows from experience that fewness of words is the wisest path.
(which is not to say I've leaned it, which is obvious from this posting)
But after a certain number of postings it becomes too much to
bear. Speaking completely as a non-specialist relying only
upon common sense, it seems to me (and IMHO) that the questions you
seek answers to would be best sought from the Universal House of
Justice. Although I think discussing these things is wonderful, I
can tell you with confidence that the answers you seek can be answered
best from them, and then that inspired guidance could inform any
further discussions. I hope you don't mind the intrusion, knowing
nothing of translation. Warmest regards, Rick Harmsen, Big Rapids, MI.
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:36:24 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Superceding Christianity?
OK, Paul, I think that we may have got you where we want you. (Smile.) Now
that you are contemplating the Spirit in terms of Christian language and
categories, Baha'is can talk a pretty good game. All, what do you think we
have been doing for the last hundred years? (Smile, again.)
You say:
1. Christianity is incredibly prolific in terms of creativity
and adaptability. In the century since the death of
Baha'u'llah, Baha'is have painstakingly evolved a single
unitary tradition, believing that to be a paradigm for unifying
the human race. During the same time frame, Christianity has
diversified into competing fundamentalist, liberal metaphysical,
adventist, Mormon, etc. avenues and has generated a vast body
of scholarship on Jesus and Christian history. Which of these
is really expressing the spirit of renewal associated with the
idea of Christ's return? To Baha'is, Christianity's greatest
weakness is its internal diversity and historical ambiguity.
But to me, that is its greatest strength. This parallels the
argument between Marxism/Leninism and capitalism:
decentralization and diversity win out over centralized control
and uniformity.
Tony: Diversity and ambiguity are indeed the greatest strengths of
Christianity. And I believe that they are also the greatest strengths of the
Baha'i community, which is almost as diverse--but not nearly so
sophisticated. I think that the Baha'i Faith has demonstrated its ability to
accommodate astonishing diversity both in terms of cultural form and of
thought. It also has the advantage of a nominal and working unity--not the
dull uniformity that some ultramontine Baha'is insist upon (but never
get--what 'Abdu'l-Baha called, "the unity of the graveyard") but a rough and
tumble unity like that enjoyed in Islam. (Yes, Christians can learn
something from Muslims.)
2. Jesus, while not in my view a unique and exclusive savior,
does have qualities that raise him above the other Western
avatar figures. His empathy vs. purity message is more
clearcut and consistent, as well as compelling, than anything
Zoroaster, Muhammad, the Bab, Baha'u'llah or the Hebrew
prophets had to say about how the believer should feel toward
humanity in general. His direct manifestation of spiritual
charisma, via healings and highly charged speech, just has
greater impact than any other figure in Western religious
history. There is a universality in Christianity that has made
it more adaptable to a wider variety of cultural contexts than
any other faith; a lot of this is due IMO to the universal
appeal of Jesus himself. Passages like the Lord's Prayer and
the Sermon on the Mount have an ability to lift the soul that
cannot be denied even by non-Christians.
Tony: What Baha'i would argue with that? But is a ranking of spiritual
teachers really where you want to go with this? In Baha'i thought, all the
Messengers of God are of equal value--even though some, like Jesus, may
excell in certain spiritual virtues, which is readily admitted.
3. The promise of Christianity is greater than that of any of
its competitors (with the possible exception of Sikhism, which
is very similar in essence). Not salvation as an escape from
hell, purchased by his crucifixion-- that's a tale for
children. But rather, direct intimate relations with the Father through
the Way shown by one who came to know his own oneness with the
Source. The transcendent God of the theologians and the other
Western religions is not the warm personal presence that is
promised by Jesus; Muhammad and Baha'u'llah would never dream
of saying "greater things than these shall ye do." Quite
simply, the spiritual rewards of following Christ are greater--
at least as promised-- than are those of obeying some Messenger
or Manifestation who is always telling you how far God is above
you and how much you need some authority figure to tell you
what to do. And the costs to one's integrity and self-respect
are far, far less.
Tony: No, no. Here you really misunderstand the Baha'i position--with
regard to mystical experience, not Muslim theology. In the Baha'i view,
direct intimacy with the Father is ready and available through your
relationship with Baha'u'llah (who, after all, IS the Father in Baha'i
esoteric language). Obedience to the laws is not pursued for its own sake.
It is the path to intimate (even erotic) relationship with God. Baha'u'llah
wrote: ". . . if you obey me, I will make you the friends of My soul in the
realm of My greatness, and the companions of My beauty in the heaven of My
might, forever." Pretty seductive.
Anyway, intimacy with God is not just promised, it is delivered--through
the rhapsodic Tablets of Baha'u'llah. What do you think the Halih, Halih,
and the Tablet of the Celestial Youth are all about?
None of this takes into account the objections of Indic or Far
Eastern religions to Christianity. Of course it has all the
negative features of all the Western religions: ecclesiastical
authority punishing people for independent thought and action,
spiritual snobbery, you name it. But those things are not
attributable to the essence of Christianity IMO, but are rather
signs of how much it has been subverted.
Tony: OK, but two can play that game. If we purge the current Baha'i
community of its unfortunate tendencies and oppressive bits, well I think the
result holds up pretty well.
Buddhism starts out
with a head- rather than heart- based message, and to a certain
extent is therefore "higher." But only in the later Mahayana,
in which compassion becomes the ruling motif, does it become
satisfying to the whole being, IMO. Christianity evolved in
the opposite direction, starting with a heart-message from a
Jewish mystic but absorbing Greek metaphysics and thereby
acquiring a head-message.
Tony: If you think I am going to comment on that one and have Bruce Burrell
all over my back, you are quite mistaken. :-)
Regards,
Tony
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 10:44:06 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: Re: how mystical can this be?
>
>Arsalon, you will note the weakness of Derek's argument against me. Since when
>does my decking 3 monks mean that I don't know a crook when I see one? Linda
>
Dear Linda the Lioness:
Anyone who has decked three monks is a hero in my book. Too bad I am not
going to meet you pay you my repect, but I have asked those that can attend
to give you my best regards. I think you are wrong about Drs. Burl and Uncle
derek. They are not crook, they are just drawn that way! All they need is
love and affection. Methinks they are out of touch with their inner child.
They need to be enveloped in a cocoon of love so they feel wanted to the
point where they can let go. I have found that a nice punch to the solar
plexus or a strategically plaed kick in private parts puts one in touch with
the inner child very quickly, brings one closer to his maker, and creates a
mystic all at once. The mystic sounds and cries produced are simply awe
inspiring. Make sure you have a tape recoder with you.
My preferred method involves the use of a hammer, drill, duct tape, and a
scalpel; but that is another story altogether.
Yours truly,
Miserable in Alaska
Arsalan J. Sadighi
"You can present the material, but you can't make me care."
Calvin and Hobbs
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:33:46 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: Alex Tavangar
Subject: Re: 3-Yr Plan Crash and Burn
At 01:55 PM 2/15/96 -0500, you wrote:
>Yes, let's start a drumbeat. Stagnation caused by no worship and no Houses
>of Worship and no access to the mainstream media because of censorship . . .
>oops! restrictive review policies. Stiffling of individual initiative which
>the House has decried. Etc.
> Sounds like a winner to me.
>
>
>Tony
>
Dear Tony:
The subtleties of your post are too ambiguous for me.
Kindly (but briefly) elaborate. (I should heed my own advice about brevity)
Thanks,
Alex B. Tavangar
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 14:58:35 -0500 (EST)
From: Jackson Armstrong-Ingram
To: talisman
Subject: Houses of Worship
'Abdu'l-Baha hoped/expected that the M-ul-A in Chicago would be built by
around 1910. (This was a reasonable expectation. It should have cost
about $50,000 to $55,000 and this was achievable at the time.)
A number of other communities wrote to him asking if they could build one
too. He replied that if the Baha'is tried to build a M-ul-A in each
community none would get built. (There were somewhat less than 2,000
Baha'is in North America at the time.) The best plan was for all to
combine to contribute to one in Chicago. When that was built, then all
should combine to build the next and thus they would be built one by one
throughout the country. In one case, where there was a local wealthy
family, he gave permission for that community to build their M-ul-A
immediately as long as they still contributed to Chicago.
'Abdu'l-Baha probably expected there to be at least 4 to 6 M-ul-A in the
US by around 1920, and he expected the ones in Tehran and Bombay would be
substantially in progress by then.
'Abdu'l-Baha emphasised repeatedly that it was not necessary to have a
very expensive building; it was more important to have and use a building
_soon_.
When 'Abdu'l-Baha was in New York, a wealthy Baha'i asked him what she
could do to make him happy. He gave a general answer about living a good
life and teaching the faith. The translator asked him why he didn't tell
her to build the M-ul-A in Chicago as she could afford it. 'Abdu'l-Baha
said that she should know that without being asked.
If 'Abdu'l-Baha thought that a US Baha'i community of less than 2,000
could have by joint effort (including a conscious consideration of what
would make him happy by its wealthier members) built a number of
moderately scaled but attractive M-ul-A during his lifetime, suggesting
that a US Baha'i community of the current size could build a number of
M-ul-A in the next decade seems like a very modest and reasonable
proposal. This is especially so given the payback 'Abdu'l-Baha (and
Shoghi Effendi) said building and using M-ul-A would bring.
(A little footnote on one of those ironies of history. Just when the
plan was first being discussed to build a M-ul-A in Chicago, Julia Mahony
(later J M Griffin and with her husband leading architects in Australia)
completed a commission to design a church complex in Evanston, Illinois.
Her design included a charming 8-sided church 'parlor' (meeting room).
The design was considered too radical by the church members who rejected
it and got someone else to do a standard gothic revival design. Mahony's
design was never built. Now, there was a missed opportunity.)
Jackson
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 11:11:15 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: Men are Shallow
>
>At 08:39 AM 2/15/96 CST, Milissa Boyer wrote:
>>Well Derek and Burl
>>
>>Since you have helped so many other people on Talisman I turn to you guys
>>for help. I am very depressed. There was this nice Baha'i guy I
>>really liked and was corresponding with via email and I thought he really
>>liked me. Well, to make a long story short, he got my photo and then
>>dropped me like a hot potato! :( What am I going to do now? Why do even
>>Baha'i men judge you by your looks and not your faith? Why do men have to
>>be so damn visually oriented? Am I going to have to find a man who is blind
>>with no hands???
>>
>>Does anyone have a desperate cousin or brother out there?
>>
>>Well sorry to bother you guys.....I guess there are things even Uncle Derek
>>and Dr Burl can't do. I would even get one of Linda's ninja suits if I thought
>>it would help!
>>
>>So delete this message at will, but thanks for letting me vent.
>>
>>Milissa Boyer
>>mboyer@ukanvm.cc.ukans.edu
>>
Dear Ms. Boyer,
Please allow me to add my two Rials in this discussion. Rial is the legal
tender within Talisman just in case you want to contribute to Dr. Uncle
Derek's Patagonia fund.
1. All men are shallow and want only one thing. Forget about impressing men
with your faith. It is useless. Now, character is a different story. Don't
use the Faith as a crutch. Use strength of character and you will be surprised.
2. If you are doing your search through either correspondence/e-mail do not
raise expectations. Be very open and frank about your general appearance and
physical condition and if they don't respond, then to hell with them. They
are not worth it. You rarely find a man that is truly worthy, but you can
mold him to what you want with time.
3. Avoid big words. That will sacre away many men very quickly.
4. Listen very carefully to whatever the want to say. As Covery says,
"Understand first, then be understood." Both requires active participation
on your part. Men are generally too stupid to understand, so be ready to
carry with you a hammer and then they will listen. Make sure though that you
listen very carefull first.
5. Men are genetically not designed to see deep inside another person. The
surface is where most stop. Use whatever force, manipulation, threats, and
violance available to you to make them see deep. I assure you it can be
done. Just be patient.
6. Most important of all, work on your own self steem. Most men admire
others who have a stron sense of self steem. I don't mean arrogance,
assertiveness, or aggresiveness, but a healthy sense of respect for yourself.
7. As a general rule, no put downs; specially for yourself. Accept
complimants with dignity and grace and shower the other party with praise
and encouragement. Negative feelings are very dangerous. Avoid them the way
Dracula would avoid sunburn.
I hope this has helped a little.
Yours truly,
Miserable in Alaska
Arsalan J. Sadighi
"You can present the material, but you can't make me care."
Calvin and Hobbs
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 10:31:01 PST
Subject: FW: Re: Hermeneutics
To: talisman@indiana.edu
On Wed, 14 Feb 1996 23:34:52 -0600 Bruce Burrill wrote:
>
>There is no need to make this any more complicated than it is.
>
This, of course, is what Mies Van Der Rhoe said. And he was quite
wrong.
But one day back in Chicago, a friend of mine, a designer, was having
lunch at a very expensive restaurant and Mies was there eating.
The story he tells is that his lunch guest, also a designer, and very
drunk, went over to Mies's table and said, "Mies. you got it all
wrong. More is more and less is less." And lurched back to his
office.
Philip.
(Master of his own signature quote)
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 02/15/96
Time: 10:31:01
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 15:44:17 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand
To: "Arsalan J. Sadighi"
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Oh no!
Dear Miserable in Alaska! It is good to see there is someone on my side.
But alas, if help be needed, it is a long way from Coventry to Alaska.
I don't want to be a Ninja Fighter, i am supposed to work for peace! And
i never liked turtles anyway!
Scared and Confused in Virginia
=END=
Subject: "Majnun," "Crash & Burn," and all that
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 15:32:36 -0500 (EST)
From: "Donald Zhang Osborn"
Allah'u'Abha! Still troubled by the content of a (2/7) posting whose author
requested we ignore, wishing to honor that person's request (with sympathy for
the family situation involved), and wondering if it is in the best interests
of this list to ignore the error or use it as an occassion for learning &
deepening (without reference to individuals), I note the following message
today (2/15) under the title "3 yr. plan crach and burn":
> Yes, let's start a drumbeat. Stagnation caused by no worship and no Houses
> of Worship and no access to the mainstream media because of censorship . . .
> oops! restrictive review policies. Stiffling of individual initiative which
> the House has decried. Etc.
> Sounds like a winner to me.
What upset me about both messages was what seems to be a partisan political
approach, focusing on confrontation. Indeed, "us and them" or "win-lose"
(zero-sum) framing of issues and problems within the Baha'i community is not
uncommon in Talisman postings. I mention this because I find it unnecessary,
counterproductive, and personally upsetting. Where is the focus on unity and
love? Can justice or the spread of the Word of God be achieved by such means?
Can anything constructive at all be accomplished with this approach?
Although this list has many virtues, such as giving voice to parts of the
community that need to be heard and providing us with precious translations of
the Writings, my enthusiasm for it has been diminished by such divisiveness,
and my heart burdened down by negative language (although I am relieved that
the latter seems less frequent than last fall).
In the past I suggested that all list members review the Writings about the use
of language (e.g. in Lawh-i-Maqsud - parts of which are directed to scholars!)
and that some pertinent quote(s) from among these be included in the Talisman
list guidelines. This may or may not improve the atmosphere, but why not try
it?
Don Osborn osborndo@pilot.msu.edu
P.S.- What is/was "majnun" anyway? And what does it mean in Arabic?
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 16:35:38 EST
From: Richard Harmsen
To:
Subject: re: The Covenant
Dear friends:
It seems the Covenant is all those things which have been so eloquently
said, and much more. One thing for certain is that it is to a great
extent a mystery, and to this the recent postings are adequate proof.
Personally I don't believe any of us will adequately understand the
Baha'i Covenant (or have a healthy relationship to it) unless we use
our hearts first, and the mind second. I know this may sound abhorrent
tosome people, but I'm sure others will nod in agreement adding the
word "obviously"!
It has much to do with the love of God, the fear of God
and obedience, and steadfastness. I think of that verse in the Gospel
which attributes to Jesus the words (paraphrasing) "Praise be to Thee
O God, that thou hast revealed these things (mysteries) to babes, and
hid them from the worldly wise." In a certain sense the Covenant
extends from the Center of authority in the Cause and travels
though the institutions. In this context the institutions transcend
the individuals who serve on them, and who have many a time offended
the friends and abused their sacred trust. But the institution remains
sacred and associated with Baha'u'llah. To the extent that we see in
the institutions the Blessed Perfection, and disassociate them
from the personalities that happen to serve on them, to that extent
will our actions be guided by the proper spirit, which will animate
our actions in a positive and productive way. Unless we recognize
that inspired guidance flows through the institutions, whether its
a Board member or their assistant, or an LSA, we'll always be
frustrated and counterproductive IMHO. Submission to the will of
Baha'u'llah is central to the Faith and the Covenant, and only then
can Baha'u'llah, or will Baha'u'llah fill us with that joy which is
infinite and eternal. These thoughts can be supported by various
Writings, but to do so would defeat the purpose. At the same time they
are of course merely my opinions, and I appreciate the discussion and
the opportunity on Talisman to be able to share them. Sincerely, Rick H.
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 16:55:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Richard Vernon Hollinger
To: Jackson Armstrong-Ingram
Cc: talisman
Subject: Re: Houses of Worship
On Thu, 15 Feb 1996, Jackson Armstrong-Ingram wrote:
> In one case, where there was a local wealthy
> family, he gave permission for that community to build their M-ul-A
> immediately as long as they still contributed to Chicago.
Jackson, are you talking about Washington D.C.? There a site was
selected, a design was prepared by C.M. Remey, and the money to
construct the M-ul-A was offered by Laura Barney. `Abdu'l-Baha
encouraged them to wait until the Chicago M-ul-A was constructed, but
told them (Remey and Barney) to consult and make their own decision.
That site, incidentally, then a vacant lot, would now be adjacent to
mall, near the Capitol and government buildings.
Richard
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 17:09:26 EST
Subject: (poem) The album of life
I wrote this poem while waiting on the copy machine. For, I am
neither Pavlov's dog, nor am I Skinner's pigeon.
THE ALBUM
Life is an album
time in photography
here are some snap-shots
of just one story.
Hold that stetoscope
near the murmurs
of broken hearts.
If you don't like
what you're listening,
that's not our fault.
Hold that microscope,
see the intracacies
of complexed minds.
If you don't like
what you're thinking
that's not our fault.
Hold that telescope
to see our faces,
near and afar.
If your view is blocked,
that's not our fault.
I'm a flower
growing and blooming.
If you don't like
what you're smelling
that's not my fault.
I'm a song
with rhythms and melody.
If you dont' like
what you're hearing,
that's not my fault.
I'm a buffet
of gourmet dishes.
If you don't like
what you're eating,
that's not my fault.
I'm a tablo
painted with words.
If you don't like
what you're seeing,
that's not my fault.
I'm a book
of untold chapters.
If you don't like
what you're reading,
that's not my fault.
I am a dance!
motion in hips,
wrists and feet.
I you don't like
what you're watching,
that's not my fault.
Wait!! album not finished.
Your time is up?
Okay! so what?
that's not my fault either.
The world has stolen
your entire being.
You don't even know
what you are missing.
Be gone, and I mean it!!
Row and row your boat,
filled with goodies,
of men's vain illusions.
lovingly,
Quanta Dawn-Light
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 13:08:12 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu, 71151.2720@compuserve.com, 70662.2417@compuserve.com,
Doug_Moore@admin.state.ak.us, Mark_Insteness@dot.state.ak.us
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: Dear Dr. Burl: souls in the next world
Sandy Fotos sadi,
>And, although I hate to say it on this forum, the Supreme Concourse
>certainly sounds like an Administrative body to me!!!
>
>Best,
>Sandy Fotos
>
Dear Dr. Burl:
I have a few questions on this subject touched by our illustriuos Sandy Fotos.
1. During the Supreme Concourse gatherings, is there coffee served? Or, they
being so spiritual, they only serve tea, Persian style, of course. I think
Brother Jim Harrison would be keenly interested in this matter.
2. How do they remove some bad boy's administrative rights?
3. Are there fights about whether to use Parsian or English for
consultation? Do those Persians who don't know English very well pout and go
to a corner and boycott the gathering?
4. During consultation, do stay on one subject or they wander all over and
never really settle the issue, and beacause they ran out of time they decide
on whatever is the fastest and easiest to agree on?
5. How comfortable are the chairs?
6. What do they do for fundraising?
7. Do they have to sit in a circle or a regular table would do?
8. Do they go on till wee hours of the night when they are so tired and
fatigued that they would vote for anything just to get out?
9. Do they have a sense of humour?
more questions to follow soon....
Miserable in Alaska
Arsalan J. Sadighi
"You can present the material, but you can't make me care."
Calvin and Hobbs
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: The Covenant
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 16:33:42 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Talismanians -
Please allow me to explain further what I meant about the Covenant
being the Will of God:
As I see it, the Greater World of Prophethood includes at least
three conditions: the Word of God (divine Knowledge), the Will of God
(divine Volition), and the Cause of God (divine Action). As the Master
said, "The attainment of any object is conditioned upon knowledge,
volition, and action." I would propose that, in as we can understand
these higher realms, the *eternal Plan of God*, which has produced
successive stages of unity in diversity, involves these three conditions
of rational accomplishment.
Regarding the Will of God, specifically, I would say that it is
really the Covenant of God; as a will and testament is, in effect, a
covenantal statement in which the individual states the intended
disposition of her or his belongings. Although we can't directly know
either the conditions existing within the Mind of God (the Will, Word,
and Cause of God) or its animating Principle (the Holy Spirit), we can,
nonetheless, observe the reflection of God's Mind, including the primal
Will or the Covenant, in the kingdoms of creation.
Just as we *see* (rationally) the Word of God in the emanation of
Sacred Text (the focal point of knowledge), the Cause of God in acts of
selfless service and obedience, and the overall *divine Plan* in the
various *plans* of the Guardian and the House of Justice, I think that
we can *see* the Will, or Covenant, of God in "The Kitab-i-Ahd," "The
Tablet of Carmel," "The Will and Testament of `Abdu'l-Baha," and "The
Dispensation of Baha'u'llah." Each of these documents is a narrative
(rational) expression of the Covenant, or *Will* of God.
Using our own human *free will*, we can consciously choose to link
with (or love) the divine *Will*. And that loving/linking is, really,
the essence of our own wills, as the Love of God, in the Prophet, is the
essence of the divine Will. Therefore, I would say that firmness in the
Covenant is a description of the mystic path. It is the struggle to
emulate the Master Who *centered* His life on the Covenant (God's Will).
To the Light,
Mark (Foster)
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 14:54 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Name Game
Here is a fun game to while away the hours when you have exhausted all your
books, run out of friends, there is nothing on the radio or TV, and the
movie houses are closed: see how many words you can make out of the name
Arsalan J. Sadighi. We have been having lots of fun with this game around
our house! The name has all sorts of good letters in it! I think Derek is
giving a prize at Bosch (a piece of salt water taffee) to the person with
the most words.
Burl
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer is a good book, but Polly Whitney's UNTIL THE
END OF TIME has more pages.
********************************************************
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: RHARMSEN@MUSIC.FERRIS.EDU
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Centers of Worship/masses
Date: 15 Feb 1996 16:01:25 GMT
Richard -
I think you make a good point. I'm afraid that this is one more example of
what I see as an essentially materialistic attitude among western society
that our problems will be solved by things. I see the primary purpose of the
FAith as the spiritualization of humanity; I do not see how the purchase or
construction of a building is going to spiritualize mankind.
However, I don't see the fact that the Universal House of Justice has not
called for construction of local Mashriqul-Adhkar's as necessarily denying
that it is appropriate. I think this is a reflection of the fact that the
vast majority of communities in the world are not prepared financially or
administratively to carry on such a long term project.
I think there is, however, an intermediate step that can be taken by more
communities, a step that Terry has mentioned in passing at least. That is
that the Mashri'qul-Adhkar need not be a seperate building; it can be a room
that has been set aside for the Mention of God. As such it would attract the
spiritual blessings mentioned in the Writings and would not require the
resources that an entire building would necessitate.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 15:28:06 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Dear Dr. Burl, Derek's End: A sequel
Dr. Burl, wise, gentle healer of the abused hearts of Talisman women, wrote
----------------------------- Begin Original Text
-----------------------------
Actually I want to relax
at Bosch and have no major stress and I may be coming there simply to avoid
having a nervous breakdown. My daughter may come also to make sure I have it
anyway.
----------------------------- End Original Text -----------------------------
Well, if Anea is there, then Helen should come too--the subtitle of Richard's
film is then: THE REVENGE OF THE DAUGHTERS.
Quanta, send Anya and by all means let's fly in cutie Ahmad (no, no mention
of seeds in this post, not a single seed, not a mention!!!).
We can then stage the "Ahmad Chase" in the redwoods.
Sandy
***************
MULTIMEDIA LANGUAGE TEACHING, edited by Sandra Fotos, published by Logos
International (Tokyo and San Francisco) and distributed by Alta Books, San
Francisco, is also a very good book, although it doesn't have my picture on
the back cover.
*****************
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 18:13:29 EST
Subject: Re: Help Me Uncle Derek and Dr. Burl
Priority: normal
X-Mailer: Pegasus Mail v3.22
Message-Id: <29A894D1F28@fllab.chass.ncsu.edu>
Sender: owner-talisman@indiana.edu
Precedence: bulk
My dearest loveliest Milissa,
I just sent a poem. Send it to those guys who need a visit to
the an optometrist. Remember my dear girl recite this
repeatedly.
"If you can't see my beauty
THAT'S NOT MY FAULT!!!"
P.S. don't listen to Mr. Birdy von Barefields. He is under the
influence of Bellcurve on Beauty. Can't you see him warbling?
love,
quanta
****************************************
Random connections cause great creations.
****************************************
(919) 833-2452 U.S.A.
Call! if you dare
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 18:30:23 EST
Subject: Advise like the Master
My dear and most dearest Don,
What have you done? What type of advise that is? I don't think that
the Master would say to me "Go Quanta, dye your hair in green,
put a ring on your nose and leather suit and hit the road".
I don't think so. I was just kidding. Can't you see my humor, my
little rascalish outbursts at times. Now, be serious!!
I decided that green is not my color, so orange it will be .
Sorry folks. I am truly sorry for taking up space with this.
love,
quanta
p.s. Milissa (shshshshs) that's the way you talk to them, just
between us. Then, well...... you know the rest of the story.
****************************************
Random connections cause great creations.
****************************************
(919) 833-2452 U.S.A.
Call! if you dare
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 18:55:59 EST
From: Richard Harmsen
To:
Cc:
Subject: re: centers of worship/masses
Dear Don (Calkins):
I must have missed Terry's comments along the lines you were
reasoning, but from that point of view it takes on a completely
reasonable and attainable (and exciting) feel. I see your point
completely. I guess I do have a little anxiety about Baha'is
(including myself)
getting distracted from the most important work, and that's why
I encouraged reading the UHJ message, which by definition can
never be bad advise. But as long as it complements and does not
distract from the pressing challenge of the hour its fantastic and
exciting. It is a little scary, or should be, if one meditates on
some of the phraseology used by the House of Justice in that last
letter introducing the general priorities of the four year plan.
If we're not already sobered up, I think we'd better pull ourselves
together quickly, lest we be shocked and overwhelmed by what
providence has in store for this outwardly pitiful looking
association of souls. (No reference to anyone on Talisman) I just
sometimes wonder how he can do it with us, as we are. By His
grace perhaps we'll figure out how to really love and arise to
the occasion. I appreciate your comments much. Rick H.
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 18:53:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: Alex Tavangar
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: 19 Houses of Worship by 2006
I wanted to thank Alex and others most warmly for their positive response
to my posting urging the use of Mashriqu'l-Adhkars to anchor and build
Baha'i communities. And I should acknowledge that Terry Culhane provided
most of the impetus for this turn in my thinking.
I agree that that the enthusiastic support of local
communities for such projects is a prerequisite, and that communities
must have sufficient resources to guarantee upkeep and to fund activities
at the local House of Worship in order for this approach to work in the
long term.
Alex: Does the Philadelphia Baha'i Center have weekly meetings for
worship that employ music, and that are open to the public? Tony, is
this done at LA? What about Toronto? How many on Talisman live near a
Baha'i Center?
Let me clarify some points about which questions were raised.
1) I hope we can indeed hasten the transformation of Baha'i Centers
into Mashriqu'l-Adhkars. These could even be
designed to be distinctive and beautiful, though for local purposes they
should be smaller and cozier than the cathedral-like national Mashriqs.
In some instances it might be best simply to buy and redecorate a church.
2) Since we are commanded in the Aqdas to build Houses of Worship
throughout the lands, and since we are also commanded to worship in them,
we do not need special instructions from the Insitutions before we pursue
such a goal, just as we do not need special instructions to do other
things commanded in the Aqdas, such as praying, fasting, and so forth.
As for an emphasis on Mashriqu'l-Adhkars being a manifestation of Western
materialism, such a statement astonishes me. It is Baha'u'llah and
`Abdu'l-Baha who put the emphasis on sacralizing space by building or
buying such edifices. Finally, for those who defend our lack of places
of worship, or who in general are happy with the fireside approach to
teaching, I would like to point out again that the latter have not
produced much in the way of practical results recently. The message from
Marcus in the Carribean, on the lack of a focus for community activities
and the lack of music being major drawbacks to the teaching and
consolidation work in the Carribean, is good anecdotal evidence for my
position. I agree entirely with Alex that establishing
Mashriqu'l-Adhkars goes hand in hand with mass teaching. Baha'is do not
stop to think that some people, when they leave their church, lose their
burial plot; they lose a community they meet with several times a week
for worship and pot luck. Baha'is, with their small numbers and lack of
houses of worship or cemeteries or frequent pot lucks or even much
worship (15 minutes at Feast counts for little) often don't have much to
offer African-American or Latino/Latina communities, the very ones most
likely to be disaffected with the US status quo.
3) Although it would not be useful for the NSA single-handedly to order
a consortium of communities to build Mashriqu'l-Adhkars, where there was
not a local will to do so, the NSA could play an extremely important
supportive and brokering role for such projects--which in some cases have
fallen apart because LSAs and local communities could not in fact keep
their commitments to one another in the long run. The attitude that if
local communities just can't get it together, then too bad, does not
strike me as a useful one.
4) My point about scholarship, Baha'i thinkers and translators, and the
Mashriqu'l-Adhkars, is that they in the future will be intertwined.
Mashriqu'l-Adhkars will offer courses; they will need scholars to teach
them. Mashriqu'l-Adhkars will generate scripture study and produce a
hunger for new translations. They will generate a need for liturgical
material (and no, the Aqdas or the Iqan are not really suitable for
*liturgy*, whereas there are many untranslated Tablets that would be).
In a community with an active Mashriqu'l-Adhkar and its educational
dependencies, Baha'i intellectuals would no longer be a fifth wheel,
which is how many are now viewed.
5) I simply have to disagree that only selfish or divisive initiatives
have been swatted down in the US community during the past two decades.
The very terms of this way of thinking do not strike me a clear, since
any individual initiative could conceivably be smeared as "selfish", and
any new way of doing things could provoke disagreement and so seem
divisive. This same way of looking at things could have been used to
disparage Dan Jordan's ANISA programs, or Firuz Kazemzadeh's lobbying of
the US Congress to pass the Genocide bill.
If Baha'is do not see that their limitations on free discourse and
inquiry produce intellectual stagnation, and in a literate society like
the US impede the teaching work, then they will just be doomed to being a
tiny, rather narrow-minded community. I am personally not happy with the
status quo, and I think the lack of growth and the naivete that makes us
unable to defend and promote the Faith derive from a structural problem
of closed discourse. We need an independent magazine of critical
thinking, or, rather, we need several. Whatever individuals and
interests stand in the way of such enterprises should be swept away,
since they are standing in the way of the progress of the Cause.
cheers Juan Cole, History, Univ. of Michigan
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 12:44:45 +1300
To: Milissa Boyer ,
talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: a man who is blind with no hands
Dear Milissa,
You wrote:
Why do men have to
>be so damn visually oriented? Am I going to have to find a man who is blind
>with no hands???
>
>Does anyone have a desperate cousin or brother out there?
I don't know what you LOOK like but I like the sound of your name...and NO
I am NOT making an offer...on any level, in relation to this problem of
yours. However, I did write a poem once which might be relevant. Have you
read it already?
Robert.
******************
My Own Beauty.
"I am a blind carpenter, without hands."
- Pablo Neruda.
I have known my own beauty
but
in spite of the self-haters
who would
seduce
the self-destructive,
the self-defending,
deceitful
boast -
who would
ask the eyes
to outstare the sun -
I do not acknowledge
her,
but look the other way
as when,
walking in the street,
one glimpses one
so magnetic
the face would display
perverse infatuation
did one
stop, stand, turn to gaze,
so looks away.
But let me tell you
this:
she is
but one:
myself,
my loved ones,
and my muse.
She is also
you.
***************************
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 16:00:47 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: translation of the Writings
Dear Talismans,
Juan wrote:
----------------------------- Begin Original Text
-----------------------------
The solutions worked out by the Guardian may not be so useful
for Chinese and Japanese, and if we have scholars capable of translating
directly into those languages from Arabic and Persian, they should be
allowed to do so and encouraged to resolve the translation problems in a
way idiomatic to those languages.
----------------------------- End Original Text -----------------------------
Translation efforts in Japan are aided by having scholarly *multilinguals*,
such as much beloved Huququ'llah Trustee Zafar Moghbel, who access English
*and* Arabic/Persian when translating into Japanese.
Hopefully, as people become more multilingual (as one half of the world
already is), this strategy will become more common. It is hard for
monolinguals to appreciate the difficulty of conveying thoughts in another
language both accurately and poetically and maybe this has been one of the
problems...
Respectfully,
Sandy Fotos
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 16:03 PST
To: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: Dear Dr. Burl: souls in the next world
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
SFotos said: >"the Supreme Concourse certainly sounds like an Administrative
body to me!!!
Arsalan has some questions:
>1. During the Supreme Concourse gatherings, is there coffee served? Or,
they being so spiritual, they only serve tea, Persian style, of course. I
think Brother Jim Harrison would be keenly interested in this matter.
A. Neither. They drink from the Camphor Fountain, which is similar to the
Fountain we used to have at Newberry's Drug Store. It has those cute little
red stools, the old fashioned coca-cola glasses, and you can get a hot fudge
sunday for a quarter. I have this on good authority from this guy I met who
passed out in a bar and had a near-sober experience -- this is what he
recalls and it sounds good to me.
The rest of your questions do not deserve answers, except #8:
>8. Do they go on till wee hours of the night...
Being non-physical, they don't go wee at all.
Burl
>
>
>
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer is a good book, but Polly Whitney's UNTIL THE
END OF TIME has more pages.
********************************************************
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 16:16 PST
To: SFotos@eworld.com
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Revenge of the Daughters
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
--------------------->
>Well, if Anea is there, then Helen should come too--the subtitle of Richard's
>film is then: THE REVENGE OF THE DAUGHTERS.
>
Yes, Anea is coming to the mystical conference. She will probably have
blue hair. You will have no problem recognizing her. She will be the one
slurping quarts of coffeee and making smart remarks. She does have a lovely
singing voice and we should ask her to sing something mystical -- she'll
probably warble something by HOLE.
Dr. Burl
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer is a good book, but Sandy Fotos' book is
written by a smart woman and not a smarmy man.
********************************************************
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 19:14:04 EST
From: Richard Harmsen
To:
Subject: re: the Covenant-correction
Talispersons:
Just wanted to qualify something I wrote.
If you did happen to read my comments on the Covenant, the
meaning of my statement to the effect that it would "defeat the
purpose" to support what I said with quotations from the
Writings is that one of my purposes was to be brief, and it would
have defeated that purpose.
Writing off the top of your head in the late afternoon after a long
day and then sending the result across the airwaves is a
questionable practice. But if we can count on the majority of us to
be on the forgiving side, as we're all in the same boat (even
if were not all equally gifted or credentialed), then it should
turn out for the best - we hope! Rick H.
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 20:09:02 EST
Subject: Re: a man who is blind with no hands
God knows what He is doing.
Hope some stay that way.
With alot of exceptions of course.
The vampires for one thing.
Hold your cross and hope they die.
............
quanta
****************************************
Random connections cause great creations.
****************************************
(919) 666-9999 U.S.A.
Call! if you dare
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 20:15:40 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: "Crash & Burn," and all that
Dear Talismaniacs:
Logging on for the second time today, I find that one of my posts that was
intended for another person online was actually posted to Talisman. I did
not intend to send the post to Majnun (another Baha'i list) but to another
person who is also on Talisman. At the risk of sounding like a cyber-nerd, I
should say that we were talking about some of the same issues that have been
discussed recently on Talisman. Yes, I do such things. But since I am also
a klutz, it appears that I sent out my message for all to see. Misplaced
posts seem to be an ongoing feature of Talisman. Just a little something to
entertain you. :-)
Anyway, I was expressing particular admiration for Juan Cole's recent
post concerning the need for centers of worship in the community, along with
the need to eliminate current policies of review, which prevent the Faith
from effective access to mainstream media, literature, and scholarship.
It does seem to me that the House of Justice has pointed the way towards
most of these goals in messages which have been repeatedly ignored in this
country by our Baha'i system. Their call for "spiritual meetings," and the
institution of the Masriqu'l-Adhkhar where possible, the need for individual
initiative to be unhindered by over-Administration, the call for
decentralization, etc. All seem to me to form the basis for much needed
reform.
Yes, reform. I believe that there is a need for change in many of the
policies which the Baha'i community is now pursuing. If it is divisive to
say so publicly, I apologize. But, I think that it needs to be said
publicly, in the course of civil discourse which is unconnected to any
official channel. It needs to be discussed in cyberspace, in private
gatherings, at Baha'i summer schools, in Baha'i magazines and newsletters, at
Baha'i tea parties, and everywhere else. Just as teaching, and prayer, and
raising children, and deepening and entry by troops need to be discussed in
those same places.
As to censorship, I suppose I should go on record as saying that I hate
censorship. Yes, with Kalimat Press I have lived with it and observed its
requirements for decades. But, I do not find censorship, which is what we
have, any more palatible when Baha'i institutions do it, than I find it when
it is done by governments, or the Catholic Church, or any other institution.
It is harmful to individual freedom of thought, and it has a devastating
effect on civil discourse. It may have at one time been a necessary evil
within the Baha'i community, I believe that time has past.
Yes, we were also discussing the Three Year Plan, which appears to me to
be a conspicuous failure, at this point, at least in the United States.
Wasn't the first goal of the plan a "vast increase" in the number of
believers? Have the number of Assemblies in this country increased or
decreased during this plan? The numbers have been on the wane for a while
now. How about the number of active believers? The number of declarations
(not counting Persian immigrants and the children of Baha'is)? I think that
the situation is dismal. OK, "Crash and Burn" was a little too colorful.
Sorry. Change that to "Disappointing outcome." Nonetheless, I suppose that
The American Baha'i will somehow announce a victory at Ridvan.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 20:32:04 EST
Subject: Re: translation of the Writings
Tony wrote:
The House has been queried on this
point--particularly with regard to Japanese translations--and has replied
that it is permissible to consult the text in the original language. Of
course, any other answer would have been
??? ***********
Warmest,
Tony
******************
If this is not the most confusing statement I ever heard. Who decides
what decisions of the Universal House of Justice is charactarized
this way? We can disagree without being disagreable. Hard to digest.
quanta
****************************************
Random connections cause great creations.
****************************************
(919) 666-9999 U.S.A.
Call! if you dare
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Re: Superceding Christianity?
To: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 17:18:07 EST
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
According to Member1700@aol.com:
>
> OK, Paul, I think that we may have got you where we want you. (Smile.) Now
> that you are contemplating the Spirit in terms of Christian language and
> categories, Baha'is can talk a pretty good game. All, what do you think we
> have been doing for the last hundred years? (Smile, again.)
Well, that sort of proves my point-- shows just how vital
Christianity is, that Baha'i in the U.S. has been subverted into just
another sect of American Protestantism! (I think that's an impudent
way of putting the gist of Rob S.'s dissertation?)
>
> Tony: Diversity and ambiguity are indeed the greatest strengths of
> Christianity. And I believe that they are also the greatest strengths of the
> Baha'i community, which is almost as diverse--but not nearly so
> sophisticated. I think that the Baha'i Faith has demonstrated its ability to
> accommodate astonishing diversity both in terms of cultural form and of
> thought. It also has the advantage of a nominal and working unity--not the
> dull uniformity that some ultramontine Baha'is insist upon (but never
> get--what 'Abdu'l-Baha called, "the unity of the graveyard") but a rough and
> tumble unity like that enjoyed in Islam. (Yes, Christians can learn
> something from Muslims.)
In a millennium or two Baha'i may have become the same kind of
rich and diverse blend that Christianity now is, without some
of the bad features, who knows?
>
> Tony: What Baha'i would argue with that? But is a ranking of spiritual
> teachers really where you want to go with this?
Not a ranking in their inner essence, that would be awfully
arrogant to do. I mean more a ranking in terms of their power
as cultural symbols. And a symbol acquires its power through
layers of accretion.
In Baha'i thought, all the
> Messengers of God are of equal value--even though some, like Jesus, may
> excell in certain spiritual virtues, which is readily admitted.
>
> Tony: No, no. Here you really misunderstand the Baha'i position--with
> regard to mystical experience, not Muslim theology. In the Baha'i view,
> direct intimacy with the Father is ready and available through your
> relationship with Baha'u'llah (who, after all, IS the Father in Baha'i
> esoteric language). Obedience to the laws is not pursued for its own sake.
> It is the path to intimate (even erotic) relationship with God. Baha'u'llah
> wrote: ". . . if you obey me, I will make you the friends of My soul in the
> realm of My greatness, and the companions of My beauty in the heaven of My
> might, forever." Pretty seductive.
But Jesus doesn't make you pay the price of obedience, or
rather what you must obey is your own illumined conscience
rather than a code of rules.
> Anyway, intimacy with God is not just promised, it is delivered--through
> the rhapsodic Tablets of Baha'u'llah. What do you think the Halih, Halih,
> and the Tablet of the Celestial Youth are all about?
Again, I guess my point is more about the phenomenon of Baha'u'llah as mediated
through Baha'i culture than the noumenon.
>
> signs of how much it has been subverted.
>
> Tony: OK, but two can play that game. If we purge the current Baha'i
> community of its unfortunate tendencies and oppressive bits, well I think the
> result holds up pretty well.
Sure, but my argument is about whether or not Christianity is
hopelessly decadent and ready to be superseded. Looks like the
old gal has a lot of life in her yet. Sophia, I mean.
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 20:40:52 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Fulfilling Christianity (Name Change!)
This is getting pretty choppy, and I hope everyone can follow.
According to Member1700@aol.com:
>
> OK, Paul, I think that we may have got you where we want you. (Smile.)
Now
> that you are contemplating the Spirit in terms of Christian language and
> categories, Baha'is can talk a pretty good game. After all, what do you
think we
> have been doing for the last hundred years? (Smile, again.)
Well, that sort of proves my point-- shows just how vital
Christianity is, that Baha'i in the U.S. has been subverted into just
another sect of American Protestantism! (I think that's an impudent
way of putting the gist of Rob S.'s dissertation?)
Tony: Well, agreed. Why shouldn't it be vital? Spiritually, I mean. Islam
is pretty damned vital, too. It is still bringing down
governments--Christianity hasn't been that hot for a couple of centuries.
Anyway, my paper on Baha'i identity in the U.S. also argued that it is a
blend of Christian and Muslim elements. Why not? That is its strength. The
notion that we are simply going to discard Christianity and start over with
something new is a part of that Baha'i triumphalism that I am arguing
against.
>
> Tony: Diversity and ambiguity are indeed the greatest strengths of
> Christianity. And I believe that they are also the greatest strengths of
the
> Baha'i community, which is almost as diverse--but not nearly so
> sophisticated. I think that the Baha'i Faith has demonstrated its ability
to
> accommodate astonishing diversity both in terms of cultural form and of
> thought. It also has the advantage of a nominal and working unity--not the
> dull uniformity that some ultramontine Baha'is insist upon (but never
> get--what 'Abdu'l-Baha called, "the unity of the graveyard") but a rough
and
> tumble unity like that enjoyed in Islam. (Yes, Christians can learn
> something from Muslims.)
In a millennium or two Baha'i may have become the same kind of
rich and diverse blend that Christianity now is, without some
of the bad features, who knows?
Tony: Aha! But you could have said the same thing about Christianity in 50
A.D. Are you saying that you would not have seen the same beauty in Christ's
teachings if you had lived then? What if everyone had made that choice at
the time? Then where would we be?
>
> Tony: What Baha'i would argue with that? But is a ranking of spiritual
> teachers really where you want to go with this?
Not a ranking in their inner essence, that would be awfully
arrogant to do. I mean more a ranking in terms of their power
as cultural symbols. And a symbol acquires its power through
layers of accretion.
Tony: Which is precisely why Baha'u'llah has claimed to be the "Return" of
all the Messengers of God. To acquire all those wonderful layers of
accretion, as he certainly has in the minds and hearts of Christian Baha'is
as the Return of Christ.
In Baha'i thought, all the
> Messengers of God are of equal value--even though some, like Jesus, may
> excell in certain spiritual virtues, which is readily admitted.
>
> Tony: No, no. Here you really misunderstand the Baha'i position--with
> regard to mystical experience, not Muslim theology. In the Baha'i view,
> direct intimacy with the Father is ready and available through your
> relationship with Baha'u'llah (who, after all, IS the Father in Baha'i
> esoteric language). Obedience to the laws is not pursued for its own sake.
> It is the path to intimate (even erotic) relationship with God.
Baha'u'llah
> wrote: ". . . if you obey me, I will make you the friends of My soul in
the
> realm of My greatness, and the companions of My beauty in the heaven of My
> might, forever." Pretty seductive.
But Jesus doesn't make you pay the price of obedience, or
rather what you must obey is your own illumined conscience
rather than a code of rules.
Tony: Gotcha, again, Paul. Baha'u'llah says explicitly that he has not come
to reveal a code of laws. Rather he offers the choice Wine of spiritual
reunion. Which means, of course, the illumination of the spirit or the
conscience--which is valued, even by the most conservative Baha'i, far above
obedience to the letter of the law.
> Anyway, intimacy with God is not just promised, it is
delivered--through
> the rhapsodic Tablets of Baha'u'llah. What do you think the Halih, Halih,
> and the Tablet of the Celestial Youth are all about?
Again, I guess my point is more about the phenomenon of Baha'u'llah as
mediated
through Baha'i culture than the noumenon.
Tony: Well, yeah. I do understand. But there are numerous Baha'i cultures,
and some of them do pretty well. The question is, will any of them do it for
you? Your call on that one.
>
> signs of how much it has been subverted.
>
> Tony: OK, but two can play that game. If we purge the current Baha'i
> community of its unfortunate tendencies and oppressive bits, well I think
the
> result holds up pretty well.
Sure, but my argument is about whether or not Christianity is
hopelessly decadent and ready to be superseded. Looks like the
old gal has a lot of life in her yet. Sophia, I mean.
Tony: She sure does. Why shouldn't she? But there are parts of
Christianity that are hopelessly decadent--the parts you won't have anything
to do with. Baha'u'llah, like Christ, did not come to supercede, but to
fulfill. It is pretty explicit in the New Testament.
>
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 21:05:43 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Fwd: Re: translation of the Writings
Quanta dear,
I do not disagree with the House's decision. My point was that I think that
it would be the only reasonable decision, under the circumstances.
Tony
---------------------
Forwarded message:
From: DAWNLIQU@fllab.chass.ncsu.edu (QUANTA DAWNLIGHT)
Sender: owner-talisman@indiana.edu
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: 96-02-15 20:34:28 EST
Tony wrote:
The House has been queried on this
point--particularly with regard to Japanese translations--and has replied
that it is permissible to consult the text in the original language. Of
course, any other answer would have been
??? ***********
Warmest,
Tony
******************
If this is not the most confusing statement I ever heard. Who decides
what decisions of the Universal House of Justice is charactarized
this way? We can disagree without being disagreable. Hard to digest.
quanta
****************************************
Random connections cause great creations.
****************************************
(919) 666-9999 U.S.A.
Call! if you dare
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 02:03:06 UT
From: "Hannah E. Reinstein"
To: SFotos@eworld.com, "Burl Barer"
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Revenge of the Daughters
Uh oh. I'm bringing Ben, my 16 year old son, down with me. His favorite groups
are Soundgarden and Metallica. The kids can croon heavy metal lullabies to one
another and model the latest in grunge wear. It should be a hoot. In my family
though, I'm the one who slurps quarts of coffee and makes the smart remarks.
The poor kid has learned patience and loving forbearance by living with me all
these years .
Hannah
----------
From: owner-talisman@indiana.edu on behalf of Burl Barer
Sent: Thursday, 15 February, 1996 16:16 PM
To: SFotos@eworld.com
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Revenge of the Daughters
--------------------->
>Well, if Anea is there, then Helen should come too--the subtitle of Richard's
>film is then: THE REVENGE OF THE DAUGHTERS.
>
Yes, Anea is coming to the mystical conference. She will probably have
blue hair. You will have no problem recognizing her. She will be the one
slurping quarts of coffeee and making smart remarks. She does have a lovely
singing voice and we should ask her to sing something mystical -- she'll
probably warble something by HOLE.
Dr. Burl
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer is a good book, but Sandy Fotos' book is
written by a smart woman and not a smarmy man.
********************************************************
=END=
From: "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: The Fourth Way
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 20:35:40 -0600 (CST)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Talismanians -
Tony posted a message referring to someone who done some work
connecting the Fourth Way (Gurdjieff and Ouspensky) with the Baha'i
Teachings. I went ahead and sent for the information (probably not
surprising to most of you ). The material seems interesting, and I
will probably write him back. Although I think that some of his ideas
may be a bit far-fetched, I admire his spirit. Anyway, comments will be
welcomed. - Mark
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
You ask why people cannot or do not collaborate, and to look at this it
may be useful to stop and ask ourselves: What actually is the Fourth Way
currently capable of helping people learn or become that they cannot learn or
become in other existing movements or religions or in academia or that cannot be
obtained simply by reading Fourth Way books by oneself? Is it ideas; an attitude
toward ideas; a set of inner practices and sacred dances and musical
accompaniments; or what?
Having identified what is truly unique and precious in the Fourth Way,
that, it would seem, is what Claymont and/or people in the Work should and
could agree to collaborate on and to pass onward to future generations and to
make available to a wider current public. If there is nothing precious and
unique, why go to all the bother of collaborating over it? Record it for
history and move onward.
To me, the main things in the Fourth Way that I cannot get anywhere else
that I know about are:
* the active attention exercises (although something like this is
available in yoga and Buddhism);
* the Movements (although something like this is available in certain
Sufi groups, perhaps).
Also unique is Gurdjieff's own vision in Beelzebub's Tales, which can
be read by oneself, but the interpretation and simple decipherment of the text
is something one cannot fully get outside of oral channels. In development of
ideas such as the Octave, the tables of hydrogens, the enneagram, etc. I get the
feeling that there is a lot of material that is still not publically available
and which exists as private understandings or oral traditions. The same holds
true for the ideas of The Dramatic Universe.
There is also for me the sense of urgency that I find in the Work that I
do not seem to pick up elsewhere outside of the Baha'i framework. Somehow I
have always felt that it is COSMICALLY URGENT that we work on ourselves. What I
had hoped to find at Claymont was a place where intense interaction could take
place both on a personal and on a critical intellectual level in working to
learn the DU vision and its applications. I never really found that experience
even on the Second Basic Course, because there was not the sense of
open-endedness at the intellectual level nor was there the intense one-on-one
work on ideas and exercises that I really wanted.
So, for me these items are what constitute the core of the uniqueness of
the Fourth Way and which I think are worth collaborating on. If others agree,
how then do we collaborate among ourselves to learn these items, to make these
items available to the public, and to train ourselves to pass them on to others?
First, who are the publics we want to move towards as part of these
collaborations? I have previously put forward some ideas about this and have
recommended the idea of closer examination and collaboration with an emerging
global religion, namely the Baha'i faith, which Bennett 30 years ago in the
Dramatic Universe presciently characterized as eminently synergistic in its
teachings and as possibly destined to play a significant role in the Synergic
Epoch.
That faith, with deep inner connections (in my opinion) to the enneagram
that are not yet known or understood by its own followers, is at a stage of its
development as a community where it needs the type of individual self-discipline
and idea sets that the Fourth Way can provide. It now encompasses a world
community of 3 to 4 million people of every type of diversity guided at the
global level by an elected institution called the Universal House of Justice
centered on Mount Carmel in Israel. It has administration and helping functions
at a national, regional, and local level. It is an operative global community
uniting people of any race or class background or speciality. Members are
located in primarily Third World countries, with the highest number being in
India, followed by Iran, I believe. There are 15 to 20 thousand active Baha'is
in the United States. There is a lot of emphasis in terms of arts, music, and
performance and in terms of economic and social development projects with a
spiritual dimension.
For cultural reasons, there is not in the USA a lot of Baha'i activity
focused on what we call self-remembering, awareness of the various centers, and
all the specialized individual efforts that we find in the Fourth Way, and that
is one basis on which the Fourth Way could provide a service, simply in terms of
training Baha'is who grow up in this culture how to gain an inward focus on
themselves and how to bring their own scriptural writings and guidance into
themselves in the present moment. The same service applies to people of any
religious background.
The Baha'i writings indicate that because of humanity's lack of
development, and its previous failures to use religion progressively for its
advancement and education, Baha'u'llah was forced to reveal basically only
"milk" for "children" -- only a "glimmer" of what could have been revealed.
To me, it's as if the specific knowledge of the enneagram and the
psychological exercises and the "cosmic perspective" given to Gurdjieff and
being developed in the Fourth Way constitute the bread and meat that it was not
appropriate for Baha'u'llah Himself be the vehicle for. To me personally, the
Fourth Way teachings, therefore, in a sense, are, or point to, the essential
science, the key, and the Baha'i Community and its scripture is the lock waiting
someday to be fully opened by it. On the other hand, the Baha'i scripture and
its community could be of immense confirmation and support to people in the
Fourth Way and can give them a much deeper realization of the idea of community
in the Synergic Epoch.
I have found the Baha'i Faith and the Fourth Way wonderfully
complementary and yet strangely unaware of one another. I personally see a real
potential for mutual benefits between them. A lot of people in the Fourth Way
seem scared of religion at a theoretical or emotional level because it seems to
call for commitments which cause separation and warfare. I'm not scared,
because the Baha'i perspective unites religions at the level of authority, at
the Source, and joins them together as one periodically renewed educational
process. God does not war against His own purposes. His purpose is to enable
humans to "carry forward an ever-advancing civilization," which is basically the
one stated so movingly by Gurdjieff: to use these arisings such as ourselves as
an aid in the administration of an enlarging world. Disputes over religion are
forbidden in the Baha'i faith. In Baha'i perspective, the purpose of religion in
this epoch is the promotion of unity and harmony and the independent
investigation of truth. Period. The greatest means for promotion of unity and
harmony are justice among ourselves and consultation. The Baha'i writings
contemplate a living universe. Just as in Bennett's vision, the divine realm
sees things from the perspective of our own eternal and temporal future and
reveals and acts according to our own needs in that perspectiive. It gives us
religions as stepping stones for humanity to follow. They lead off the Earth
and out into the galaxy and beyond into a literally cosmic function for life, as
mainstream science itself is now beginning to discover and speculate about.
They provide necessary institutions, social frameworks of cooperation and
decision-making, and ways by which we move beyond the individual organism level
of living systems. To me the Fourth Way and the Baha'i Faith have wonderfully
congruent, or at least always mutually illuminating, perspectives.
Many people are still looking to the future for some great spiritual
event to happen that will "save the world" and guide it out of its confusion
through some great literal external sign or wonder. What's exciting for me is
that for me that Event already occurred, on a higher level, or in symbolic ways,
as a thief in the night, and the stage we are at now as Baha'is is not one at
some level of "waiting around for directions" but one of creatively implementing
the basic design and directions which that Event has already given us to set in
motion -- a new form of global self-government on Earth, involving an objective,
positive framework of institutions and patterns of problem solving along with
the kinds of virtues and levels of being that the Fourth Way tries to help us
achieve in essence through the science of our own harmonious individual
self-development that resides inherently within each of us. That global
self-government system, in turn, will have a very powerful feedback effect on
the character of future individuals. There is a new whole, and new parts.
Attempts are being made in some quarters (e.g., through the Mouravieff materials
and influences coming from Mount Athos) to revive the "esoteric Christianity"
aspect of the Fourth Way and to thereby to "make Christianity work" at the level
of the individual. However, the individual is now located in a global symbiosis
that, in Baha'i perspective, the religions of the past were deliberately never
designed to fully address because doing so would have violated the deliberate,
step-by-step nature of progressive revelation and divine nurturance. In addition
the kind of negative dyadic feelings that have inhabited the theologies of
Christianity and Islam (not to mention what we call democratic politics) have
been most firmly and authoritatively prohibited to Baha'is.
The Baha'i faith is thus, I feel, pursuing a clearly relevant and
systematically implementable strategic vision of the optimal global future, and
it invites and vitally needs open examination and commentary from uncommitted
sources. It offers a special case where little actions on the part of the
Fourth Way may reap enormous benefits.
___________Science and the Fourth Way.__________
In essence, then, I see a lot of room for collaboration in the
Fourth Way
with religion as a vehicle of transformation. What, then, about the relation
between the Fourth Way and the course of future science? Where are we headed in
terms of collaboration with academic or otherwise specialized scientific or
intellectual research enterprises?
Certainly there has always been a very strong connection between the
coming of the Fourth Way to the West and the notion of true science and a new
world order of ideas. The seminal Fourth Way writings, including those of
Gurdjieff, Ouspensky, Rodney Collins, Nicoll, Bennett, Blake, and others, not
only contain many seed ideas, many suggestive metaphors and threads to follow up
on, and many valuable intuitions and suggestions, but were also almost always
motivated by dissatisfaction with the limited scientific notions of their times
and the yearning for access to a deeper cosmic science, wisdom, and Truth.
Gurdjieff in "Beelzebub's Tales" describes and uses various "sacred
common-cosmic laws," for example, as part of the tools by which he performs his
"objectively impartial crtitique of the life of man" and on the basis of which
Beelzebub arrives at his recommendations to His Endlessness at the end of the
book. One of Gurdjieff's five "Being Obligolnian Strivings" is to understand
ever more about the laws of world creation and world maintenance. Particularly
with Bennett's Dramatic Universe and with those who worked with him such as
Kenneth Pledge, Tony Blake, and others, we see a major effort to try to get Work
ideas into a rigorous and clear enough form to be able to pass into and be
developed by the intellectual discourse of professions such as philosophy,
systems theory, psychology, theology, cosmology, history, and so on, and to
develop a genuine critique of the Western tradition based on the ideas found in
the Work or which continue to emerge within it.
Unfortunately we also see a great lack of financial resources,
and I only
wish that more of this effort was being made. Bennett's (to me heroic) aim was
to literally try to move Western science and philosophy into a wider categoreal
framework of thought through which it could begin to reunite with religion and
spiritual teachings and enable people again to use science and religion for
practical objective work on their own being and to increase their inner value as
beings. In his efforts at systematicity, Bennett resembles Hegel and Alfred
North Whitehead. However, he was not working in the academic environment of a
major university where he could get unlimited amounts of professional comment on
his ideas, and also he was forced by the original publishers of the Dramatic
Universe to omit a great many of the footnotes and references that would have
helped people construct academic and scholarly bridges between the various
professions and his own work. Bennett's work is thus almost completely unknown
and neglected in the academic community, and unjustly so.
At the same time, a lot of Fourth Way ideas that were once ahead
of their
time have now moved into mainstream thinking, not so much because of the direct
verbal impact on the academic and scientific communities of Fourth Way writings
but because the thinking within those communities has in fact moved ahead and
has discarded earlier notions in many fields that formed the "denying factor" in
early Fourth Way critiques.
The notion of system, for example, which forms the general
Master Idea of
the Synergic Epoch and extends thinking beyond atomism, has now been deeply
explored in this century in philosophy, mathematics, ecology, and every other
field and constitutes a whole huge research industry whose applications have
already transformed society and our understanding of reality. Even
sub-specialties such as "Living Systems Theory" have their own societies and
vigorous research and publishing efforts. The Work extend this notion of living
system to the cosmic scale.
In cosmology, the Fourth Way notion of universes with more than four
dimensions has been the subject of an enormous literature particularly starting
in the 1980s and onward and now forms the basis for the most widely accepted
version of unified field theory. The stranger implications of quantum theory and
its connections to how the universe can act as and be a whole across its
immense separations of space and time are now beginning to be explored and
rationalized. Bennett's work, however, is not widely read or known.
In psychology, the notion of "man as (cybernetic) machine" has
burgeoned, at the same time as the notion of higher human potential.
Bennett's and Blake's emphases on the role of chance echoes the findings and
theories now being put forward in every field.
But in each of these areas, discourse with these professionns and
disciplines requires academic background in them and active participation in
them professionally. Most people with Fourth Way involvements, however, do not
have these background requirements.
We are thus at a disadvantage, and the questions arise, to what
extent do
the seminal Fourth Way writings still contain seeds for the future? Have they
already spent their major force? Are they now only of historical interest? Has
science overtaken them, or will it eventually do so without further effort on
our part? Does the Fourth Way literature currently have anything to contribute
to these disciplines at a technical level?
This would have to be answered on a case by case basis, and in any case
it is not exclusively up to us, but up to the scientific community, to decide
these questions, _once that community has been given an opportunity to look at
something._
Since our resources to invade academia are minimal, it seems we must use
the reverse strategy and turn to the computer and the Internet and invite
academia to invade the Fourth Way, to open it up to graduate students in the
various disciplines for their PhD theses, etc.
A major focus of intellectual collaboration in the Bennett line of the
Fourth Way could thus be simply to electronically publish a critical,
"notes-restored" hypertext edition of the Dramatic Universe and related texts
and talks, so that a DU type vision of the universe might be updated and
continually commented on in light of progressive discoveries. As a first step,
this would require access to Bennett's notes and the original manuscripts of the
DU, which would require collaboration by several people who may currently have
access to them.
I wonder if Tony Blake, Saul Kuchinsky, and George Bennett have any
comments about this idea and how it might fit into the Dramatic University
project. How would people who wish to do scholarly research in the backgrounds
of Bennett's works and thought gain access to basic manuscript materials? What
could be done to create Internet access to the DU and related texts? What
various ways exist to systematically "update" and carry forward the DU vision?
How do we let accademia know that sophisticated materials such as the DU and
Systematics exist? Do Systematics and the DU vision have a firm enough
intellectual grounding to really reward this level of activity and commitment?
Or are they simply too much of one person's ecclectic vision to carry forward as
a growing scientific and spiritual vision of the nature of reality including the
reality of conscious experience?
_________________
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 18:59:57 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Re: Dear Dr. Burl, Derek's End: A sequel
To: talisman@indiana.edu
---- Begin Forwarded Message
Dr. Burl, wise, gentle healer of the abused hearts of Talisman women,
wrote
----------------------------- Begin Original Text
-----------------------------
Actually I want to relax
at Bosch and have no major stress and I may be coming there simply to
avoid
having a nervous breakdown. My daughter may come also to make sure I
have it
anyway.
----------------------------- End Original Text
-----------------------------
Well, if Anea is there, then Helen should come too--the subtitle of
Richard's
film is then: THE REVENGE OF THE DAUGHTERS.
Quanta, send Anya and by all means let's fly in cutie Ahmad (no, no
mention
of seeds in this post, not a single seed, not a mention!!!).
We can then stage the "Ahmad Chase" in the redwoods.
SANDY
My dear Sandy
I suppose you want the Ahmad Ladies Posse from Australia to attend with
their Kangaroos. Linda's wild Shi'ite Women no doubt dressed in Black
and white lace ninja outfits will present a wonderful sight next to the
Red hopping beasts mounted by the 6.ft plus Amazons dressed in emerald
green with crimson sashes.
Kindest Regards
Derek Cockshut
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: DAWNLIQU@fllab.chass.ncsu.edu
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Advise like the Master
Date: 15 Feb 1996 20:05:54 GMT
Quanta -
Nose ring and green hair is probably not exactly what we need more of. But
travelers? I think so. Tho' I would suggest you try to avoid icy streets
which means no northern trips during the winter.
> Fix my car up real good and hit the
> road after my son graduates in June.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 22:30:33 EST
Subject: RE: Revenge of the Daughters
Hannah,
Your son and my son who is 18 seem to have alot in common. When he
complaints
about my behavior, I tell him they did not raise me right. I have
been promising to grow up for a long time. He is waiting patiently.
The childen are so wonderfully mature these days. How did we get so
lucky? My son does not like hard rock etc.. He loves '60's music.
Jazz, Don Henley, disco music. I have no clue why.
love,
quanta****************************************
Random connections cause great creations.
****************************************
(919) 666-9999 U.S.A.
Call! if you dare
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 22:21:04 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: Houses of Worship
Dear Friends ,
You have no idea how it warms my soul to see this discussion of local
Houses of Worship . My thanks to you all .
A number of comments seemed so familiar to me . they paralled the
discussions in Omaha over the past four plus years since this issue was
raised .
In September 1991 I suggested at the opening of what we called the
Omaha Bahai Academy that those present were witnesses to the Educational
Dependency of the Mahriqu l Adhkar . The phrase I used then and still use
is " Welcome to Omaha ! Home of the second Mashriqu l Adhkar on the North
American continent ." It was met with smiles probably not unlike the "if you
build it they will come " effect Richard alluded to in his remarks . Speaking
of which, Richard you are more than welcome to come to Omaha and be James
Earl Jones .
A little more than four years later the commmunity has purchased land and
we are on our way . I must point out we have not purchased land for a Bahai
center . This is for the Mashriq , a not inconsiderable difference .
Along the way I heard comments such as " we can't support such an
undertaking " " if this should be done the UHJ would tell us" " it requires
too much committment and the believers are not ready for it " " buildings do
not make a Faith " we dont need a building to worship God " " is not this
just an American materialist trap " .
We are living proof in Omaha that all of these fears and appeals to the
staus quo can be over come . That ordinary people can take their Faith so
seriously that they are willing to commit their time , money and talent to
the realization of the command of Bahau llah in K 31 of the Kitab-i-Aqdas.
The House of Worship is not just a "building" nor is it an expresion of
materialism. To think so gives away the degree to which we have become
thoroughly secularized . The outer House of Worship is the *Manifest*
movement of the *Hidden* state of the station of servitude which constitutes
the highest reality to which the rational human soul can aspire . It is in
this regard that the House of Worship is the reality of Abdul Baha; a life of
worship and service. The House of Worship is sacred space not simply social
space or administrative space. It is in the inner sacred space - the soul -
that one comes to know and love its Lord and is irresistaibly drawn to
manifest that "knowledge" and "love" in the outer world . I find the fullest
expression of the opening paragraph of the Aqdas , The Most Holy, on
recognition and observance "symbolized" by the House of Worship .
Far from being a materialist obsession, the establishment of the House
of Worship Abdul Baha has remarked constitutes "the inception of the Kingdom
of God on earth." It is a *command * of Bahau llah in the Kitab-i-Aqdas and
it represents what the Guardian called the "Shelter " which all will seek and
is , the Guardian states is " one of the noblest institutions conceived by
the mind of Bahau llah ." These realities among others have been good enough
for me to want to build it . We find the command to build this institution
comes from Bahau llah himself; is praised and elaborated on by Abdul Baha and
the Guardian and I would suggest therfore constitutes a key component in our
faithfulness to the Covenant of Bahau llah . The current Head of the Faith
is the Universal House of Justice.. I would refer anyone to their Social and
Economic Development letter of Oct . 1983 who may have doubts about whether
the Supreme Body is in favor of such activities . Their letter makes the
case, in clear terms for the centrality of the Mashriqu l Adhkar in the
context of Bahai social and economic development. The marching orders already
exist form the Universal House of Justice as to the importance of this
institution. They have even commissioned a compilation on social and economic
development which contains the primary section on the importance of the
Mashriq . What do they need to do?
I am sympathetic to the fears and concerns about such undertakings .
They get to the heart of transformation and the committment to fundamentally
change the world in which we live . In a world drowning in the materialism ,
secularism ,racialism , sectarianism which the Guardiann condemned in Citadel
of Faith what institution better symbolizes such transformation than the
Mashriqu l Adhkar; the institution which , in His words " symbolizes the
fundamental verity of the Bahai Faith , that religious truth is not absolute
but relative , that Divine revelation is not final but progressive."
This *symbol* is a direct challenge to the denial of divine revelation
-secularism -; the denial of the primacy of the spirit - materialism- ; and
the denial of all forms of racism and sectarianism as the the embodiment of
the oneness of humankind ; what the Supreme Institution in commenting on the
Mashriq has called the "dynamic coherence between the spiritual and practical
requirements of life on earth. The indispensability of this coherence is
unmistakenly illustrated in His ordination of the Mashriqu l Adhkar.."
"This is not a Cause which may be made a plaything for your idle
fancies" says Bahau llah " nor is it a field for the foolish and faint of
heart." I believe the House of Worship gets to the heart of this Cause which
is unity . It calls us to put into ,practice on a daily basis, publically and
in an identifiable way in worship and servive as a community and as
individuals what we profess to believe . No more hiding in the safety of our
living rooms ,now it is to the streets quite literally creating the
experience of God as taught to us by Bahau lllah and sharing that experience
with all those within and without the Faith who may or may not see the Faith
exactly as I do . I may stay away from Feast but I stay away from the House
of Worship, which has both a personal and public dimension, at my own peril
. This House is about praxis because worship is inseperable from service.
For those who think there is some conflict with teaching or entry by
troops in the building of such Houses I would ask that you consider why an
assumption has been made that worship and service - the institutional
embodiment of the Master - is somehow different from or antithetical to
"teaching". I have absolutely no doubt , I live in a world of certitude
about this , that if we build it " they will come ."
warm regards ,
Terry
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 16:19:03 +1300
To: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: Re: a man who is blind with no hands
>The vampires for one thing.
>Hold your cross and hope they die.
Gays and antimetaphysicians and other strange bedfellows
have agreed that evil is best left to itself
but my father did say,
don' stan' on mah blue suade shoes...
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 18:56:25 PST
Subject: FW: Men are Shallow
To: talisman@indiana.edu
This is outrageous men bashing and only fractionally true.
Melissa, I'm sure that I can match you note for note in terms of
horror stories and mine involved a woman in a Bahai context.
I simply cannot stand, will not stand these sorts of attacks on men
as a group. I sometimes think white men are the last minority that it
is okay to slur.
I think the damage and abuse some women have suffered has, for them,
bought them a license to commit abuse.
Many of the white men I know are damaged, healing, confused,
concerned, thoughtful, considerate, funny, compassionate, loyal, fair
minded and ever so slowly coming to wonder how to handle the bashing,
the criticism, the barbs, the rage and hatred so often and so freely
directed at them by (I hope) a tiny minority of women.
The one man Milissa is refering to might well have been tactless and
crude. And my heart goes out to her. God knows I've been there myself
enough times.
And I'll even make jokes about what a bunch of yahoos we guys are.
But this "Man are jerks" posting somehow goes past my sense of what
is permissable.
On Thu, 15 Feb 1996 11:11:15 -0900 Arsalan J. Sadighi wrote:
>
>>
>>At 08:39 AM 2/15/96 CST, Milissa Boyer wrote:
>>>Well Derek and Burl
>>>
>>>Since you have helped so many other people on Talisman I turn to
you guys
>>>for help. I am very depressed. There was this nice Baha'i guy I
>>>really liked and was corresponding with via email and I thought he
really
>>>liked me. Well, to make a long story short, he got my photo and
then
>>>dropped me like a hot potato! :( What am I going to do now? Why do
even
>>>Baha'i men judge you by your looks and not your faith? Why do men
have to
>>>be so damn visually oriented? Am I going to have to find a man who
is blind
>>>with no hands???
>>>
>>>Does anyone have a desperate cousin or brother out there?
>>>
>>>Well sorry to bother you guys.....I guess there are things even
Uncle Derek
>>>and Dr Burl can't do. I would even get one of Linda's ninja suits
if I thought
>>>it would help!
>>>
>>>So delete this message at will, but thanks for letting me vent.
>>>
>>>Milissa Boyer
>>>mboyer@ukanvm.cc.ukans.edu
>>>
>
>Dear Ms. Boyer,
>
>Please allow me to add my two Rials in this discussion. Rial is the
legal
>tender within Talisman just in case you want to contribute to Dr.
Uncle
>Derek's Patagonia fund.
>
>1. All men are shallow and want only one thing. Forget about
impressing men
>with your faith. It is useless. Now, character is a different story.
Don't
>use the Faith as a crutch. Use strength of character and you will be
surprised.
>
>2. If you are doing your search through either correspondence/e-mail
do not
>raise expectations. Be very open and frank about your general
appearance and
>physical condition and if they don't respond, then to hell with
them. They
>are not worth it. You rarely find a man that is truly worthy, but
you can
>mold him to what you want with time.
>
>3. Avoid big words. That will sacre away many men very quickly.
>
>4. Listen very carefully to whatever the want to say. As Covery
says,
>"Understand first, then be understood." Both requires active
participation
>on your part. Men are generally too stupid to understand, so be
ready to
>carry with you a hammer and then they will listen. Make sure though
that you
>listen very carefull first.
>
>5. Men are genetically not designed to see deep inside another
person. The
>surface is where most stop. Use whatever force, manipulation,
threats, and
>violance available to you to make them see deep. I assure you it can
be
>done. Just be patient.
>
>6. Most important of all, work on your own self steem. Most men
admire
>others who have a stron sense of self steem. I don't mean arrogance,
>assertiveness, or aggresiveness, but a healthy sense of respect for
yourself.
>
>7. As a general rule, no put downs; specially for yourself. Accept
>complimants with dignity and grace and shower the other party with
praise
>and encouragement. Negative feelings are very dangerous. Avoid them
the way
>Dracula would avoid sunburn.
>
>I hope this has helped a little.
>
>Yours truly,
>
>Miserable in Alaska
>Arsalan J. Sadighi
>
>
> "You can present the material, but you can't make me care."
>
> Calvin and Hobbs
>
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 02/15/96
Time: 18:56:25
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 22:24:42 EST
Subject: Re: Fwd: Re: translation of the Writings
What I heard you saying is that, if they decided any other way, it
would have been absurd. You of course do agree in a less than
respectable manner IMHO. You must understand that I come from a
different culture where the Authority is treated differently.
Not so in a very casual way. Sorry, if I misunderstood.
love,
quanta
****************************************
Random connections cause great creations.
****************************************
(919) 666-9999 U.S.A.
Call! if you dare
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 19:31 PST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: ooops
Dear friends:
I responded to Nima's message -- a message intended as private -- and quoted
from it, on Talisman. I honestly did not realize it was not a Talisman
message until it was brought to my attention by Nima. I apologize to Nima
who will, I pray, forgive me by the time we get to Bosch or I will have to
spend the entire Mysticism Conference hiding in the bookshop behind Uncle Derek.
Repentently,
Burl
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer is a good book, but Sandy Fotos' book is
written by a smart woman and not a smarmy man.
********************************************************
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 21:00:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: House of Worship
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
> 2) Since we are commanded in the Aqdas to build Houses of
> Worship throughout the lands, and since we are also commanded
> to worship in them, we do not need special instructions from
> the Insitutions before we pursue such a goal, just as we do not
> need special instructions to do other things commanded in the
> Aqdas, such as praying, fasting, and so forth.
I don't mean to nit-pick, but I disagree with the above comment
as I believe implementation of *all* the laws of the Kitab-i
Aqdas require permission of the Head of the Faith. As such, the
Universal House of Justice will inform the community as to when a
particular law, such as daily repetition of the Greatest Name 95
times, or building the Houses of Worship, or any other law, must
be implemented.
Just because a law is available in Aqdas is no reason to rush to
observance. Many other details must be considered by the
Universal House of Justice, such as when, how, where, etc., to
implement the law. Otherwise, total chaos.
regards, ahang.
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 23:22:35 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re:superceeding Christianity
Dear All ,
I am enthralled by the dialogue between Paul and Tony on this question
. i think it represents the very best of what Talisman is about . I hope it
will continue ; it has helped clarify a number of issues in my own mind . let
me add that in my view it can be said that Jesus , as Logos - Sophia :), sent
Bahau llah to fulfill His mission .
warm regards ,
Terry
=END=
From: "K. Paul Johnson"
Subject: Prayers
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 15:45:40 EST
Thanks, Linda, for commenting that Baha'i prayer offers the
same kind of immediate spiritual connection that Christianity
promises. From experience, I concur, with this caveat: *some*
Baha'i prayers do so. As I recall though, an awful lot of
prayers by Baha'u'llah are along the lines of "I'm nothing and
nobody, just a repulsive little worm, and you're so great and
wonderful to even let me exist, God." Which doesn't ring my
chimes at all. `Abdu'l Baha prayers are generally more upbeat,
more affirming that God cares about us and that our spiritual
connection to him can be a healing force in our lives.
Gotta unsubscribe again-- this list is so active! But will
pop in from time to time.
Allah'u'abha
Paul
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 22:32:42 -0600 (CST)
Subject: re: Houses of Worship
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: , "Talisman"
> It was met with smiles probably not unlike the "if you
>build it they will come " effect Richard alluded to in his remarks . Speaking
>of which, Richard you are more than welcome to come to Omaha and be James
>Earl Jones .
I hope you didn't feel I was being patronizing because I wasn't. I just
couldn't resist an eisegesic interpretation of the thread vis a vie a
movie.
When I was an assembly member of the Mendenhall Local spiritual assembly
in Juneau, Alaska we constantly kicked around the idea of a center. I
was very strongly for this. It was finally decided that we would agree
in principle on acquiring one. We did a couple of years later right when
I and my family left. I always encourage Baha'i Communities to obtain a
center no mater how far fetched it may seem at the time.
When my family left we moved to Fresno, Ca. The Baha'is were renting and
then buying a center that was not in a particularly fashionable part of
town and it was quite run down. It was part of a series of offices or
buisness'--small stores one sees in a rundown mini-mall. It was pathetic
and to some extent embarrassing--but it was something. Last year a
developer needed that land and they sold it at a handsome profit, as I
have been told, of $200,000.00. So you never know!
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 04:16:43 UT
From: "Hannah E. Reinstein"
To: talisman@indiana.edu, "Mark A. Foster"
Subject: RE: Hermeneutics
I'm quite surprised that Derek missed the opportunity to pun about Bosch's
Shermeneutist cat.
Hannah
----------
From: owner-talisman@indiana.edu on behalf of Mark A. Foster
Sent: Thursday, 15 February, 1996 10:07 AM
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Hermeneutics
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Hannah, Philip, and Richard -
Hannah, Some people say "hermeneutist," but, as we know, any form of
neutism is contrary to the spirit of the Baha'i Teachings .
And thanks for the vote of confidence, Philip. I used to be one of
the main punsters among the Baha'is on Long Island. I stopped after I
realized that many people found me quite annoying. As you can see above,
I really haven't learned my lesson. ;-)
Regarding LSA boundaries: I know of at least one Baha'i community
which includes numerous incorporated villages.
Mark (Foster)
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 23:32:45 EST
Subject: Re: FW: Men are Shallow
Dear belove@,
The phrase "men are jerks" was written by our Loyal Lion (translated
from Persian and Turkish) Arsalan Sadighi who is a man.
So, stop woman-bashing. If, you look at it purely from a humanistic
perspective, I wholeheartedly agree that women are just as capable
doing harm to men as do men to women. But, statistics would work
against the former. Don't judge things by U.S. standards, friend. The
oppressed, when not healed, do become the oppressors!
Better, yet the oppressed begin to oppress each other. Call in
"internalized sexism". Have you seen "Joy Luck Club"???
The media is doing its best to prove equality of women by giving them
the oppressor roles. Alas! some don't realize, or think of only $$$$.
But, I'll have to admit that there is a crisis in human character.
The calamity is within. We are all playing our part in it, silently.
Sorry, I have no sources for citation at this moment but, it goes
something like "there is no place to flee". I feel it in my bones.
I am sorry, you are offended as a human being. Let's work on this.
love,
quanta****************************************
Random connections cause great creations.
****************************************
(919) 666-9999 U.S.A.
Call! if you dare
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 23:47:37 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: Ahang Rabbani
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: House of Worship
Ahang-jan is my murshid/guide in all matters of fiqh/law, but this locus
of nonexistence would like to just note that Baha'i communities
throughout North America have in fact been acquiring Baha'i centers,
which are the embryos of Mashriqu'l-Adhkars, for many years; that this is
in accordance with the explicit text of the Aqdas; and that to my
knowledge it has never been in question that they needed special
permission from anyone to do so. Why the situation would be different if
local communities were to aim directly for Mashriqu'l-adhkars rather than
only Centers is not clear to this dim-sighted one.
As for chaos, it seems to me that the American community could do with a
little chaos; it is stagnation that we are threatened with. :-)
cheers Juan
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 20:47:12 -0800 (PST)
From: Steven Coles
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Help Me Uncle Derek and Dr. Burl
> At 08:39 AM 2/15/96 CST, Milissa Boyer wrote:
> >Well Derek and Burl
> >
> There was this nice Baha'i guy I really liked and was corresponding
> with via email and I thought he really liked me.
Warning: Flame from crazed Unitarian-Universalist follows: Why are
Baha'i young people meeting via email? Couldn't you found stronger
families by having more interaction between communities, thereby giving
your members more chances to meet suitable spouses face-to-face? I've
seen so much isolation between Baha'i communities only a few kilometers
apart. Ok. I do know it's none of my business.
Steven S. Coles
Seattle, Washington State, U.S.A.
=END=
From: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 23:04:48 -0600 (CST)
Subject: D. May's herm. paper
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Zaid, I am a member of Talisman. I finished my M.A. in 1993. The title
of my thesis is "The Baha'i Principle of Religious Unity and the Challenge
of Radical Pluralism." Several re-written chapters from my thesis will
appear in a forthcoming volume by Kalimat Press entitled _New Directions in
Baha'i Theology_. I am currently an adjunct professor of philosophy and
religion at Oklahoma City University doing what I call "full-time
part-time" teaching (full-time teaching schedule with part-time pay). My
wife teaches law at the same university.
My e-mail address is: dann.may@sandbox.telepath.com
L >I recently read a very interesting and well-written paper in JBS by Dan
L >May entitled *A Preliminary Survey of Hermeneutical Principles Found wi
L >the Baha'i Writings* (vol. 1, no. 3, 1989). In the biographical notes i
L >says that "Mr. May is currently working on a master's degree in philoso
L >at the University of North Texas and plans to pursue a doctorate in
L >philosophy of religion. His master's thesis is essentially an expanded
L >version of the article that appears in this journal."
L >Does anyone know if Dann has an email-adress, or if he has published hi
L >master's thesis or Ph.D. dissertation?
Warmest greetings, Dann May, Philosophy, OK City Univ.
---
* WR 1.32 # 669 * Thesaurus: ancient reptile with an excellent vocabulary.
=END=
From: xavier_echanique@email.fpl.com
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 00:52:30 EST
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Buddism: dogma vs love & compassion
Friends:
I forward to Talisman an unsanitized comment by my brother Willy, who
is a Zen Buddist. His note is in response to the Defending Jamshed
Fozdar discussions. I have been sending him Talisman Email on Buddism.
I love him dearly.
Love,
Xavier Echanique
______________________________ Forward Header __________________________________
Subject: Re: Defending Jamshed Fozdar!...
Author: KYUDOKA@aol.com at Internet-Mail
Date: 2/14/96 5:04 PM
Dear brother: in Zen we would ask "Show me create. If U open ur mouth ur
already dead. If u don't answer ur a stinking corpse. Quickly, quickly, what
is ""create""?
I rather they discussed what can be done for the Iranian man that was
condemned to death for returning to the Bahai faith after converting to
Islam. The religious court condemned him to death because he converted to
Islam to save his job, or some bullshit like that. And it is people like the
ones discussing bulshit buddhism that forget what the teachings of all
religions are really about: love and compassion for yourself and your fellow
humans, not some dogma.
Thanks for the mail, brother. Love w
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 23:40:14 -0600
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Bruce Burrill
Subject: Re: Dialog, Arguments and Quarrels
Cc: coleman@olimp.irb.hr
Richard,
> "But I really believe because I know him that he is very sincere in
his desire to articulate the Buddha's message in a cross-cultural
form."<
Krishnamurti once commented that sincerity can be a form of self
deception. Articulating the Buddha's msg in a cross cultural manner is
no doubt an important thing to do, and there have been a number of attempts
at it. The thing that is important, it would seem, is that it _is_ the
Buddha's msg that is being articulated. With Fozdar's writings that is
clearly _not_ the case.
You go on at some length about cross culturalism as if we can somehow
explain away Fozdar's sins that way, and for some reason you seem to
assume that I am holding Fozdar accountable to a Western style
scholasticism. Further, you state:
> 'I am taking the position ( and please correct me if I am wrong in my
assumptions) that you believe as a member of a particular Buddhist
school that there are normative particulars to the more Buddosophical
aspects of the Tathagatha's teachings that you believe fall within the
confines of a cultural tradition that must, in some sense, be treated as a
standard. Therefore deviations from this by thoughts presumed to be
foriegn, must of a neccesity, be viewed with suspicion as they are a
challenge to the integrity of the orginal vision and maybe an attempt to
co-opt and thus corrupt the orginal intent.
> 'My purpose in co-mingling cross-culturalism or multi-culturalism
with "higher criticism" was to define the Baha'i or perhaps new
humanist approach which recognizes that pluralism can have a center
to it, and a form that though it is conditional and and relative is
nonetheless valid and substantively analytical.' <
And what exactly does this have to do with Fozdar? What does this have
to do with Fozdar's iesegetically assigning meaning to Arya-Pudgala, for
example?
There is no reason to assume that I am taking solely a _Western_
scholarly position to in response to Fozdar, and there is certainly is no
reason to assume that Fozdar is taking some sort of sophisticated cross
cultural position in relation to understanding Buddhism. Basically, all
Fozdar is presenting is a polemic against the standard view of Buddhism
as being _a_theistic in contradistinction to with what (some) Baha'is say
what Buddhism should be. You can try to pretty it up all you want and
you can try to excuse him by appealing to cultural differences, but his
books are really nothing more than polemics.
Since Fozdar has used Indian Buddhist texts to support his position,
there is no reason that I need to assume the stance of any particular
Buddhist school, and there is every reason to assume that when the term
Arya-Pudgala is used that it would be recognizable by what could be
called mainstream Indian Buddhism. Does cross/multi-culturalism with
"higher criticism" assume that eisegesis is an acceptable mode of
dealing with concepts and technical terminology? Can I then assign
meaning to "Manifestation of God" independently of what the Baha'i
tradition tells us it means because the meaning I would give it would
show a deeper understanding? Basically, this is what Fozdar has done,
and this is what you are trying to defend.
I could say that the culture that I was brought up in says that I can
arbitrarily assign meaning as I see fit to be consonant with my cultures'
vision of truth, which very much seems to be one of the defenses you
are making for Fozdar. And if I am wrong about this, I would have to
say it is because you've been less than clear.
As I said, with Fozdar's works, what we are dealing with polemics not
scholarship, though he is highly critical of Western scholarship of
Buddhism. My response has simply been that as a Buddhist seeing if
I can recognize Buddhism in what he said, and I cannot.
> "I also wouldn't underestimate his insight into the Buddha's
message." <
As I see it there is nothing to underestimate. Let me give you another
example of Fozdar's insight. On pages 41-2 of BMA and 135-7 of GB
Fozdar quotes Dhammapada verses 153-4:
"I [the Buddha] have run through a course of many births looking for
the maker of this dwelling and finding him not; painful is birth again
and again. Now you are seen, O builder of the house, you will not build
the house again. All your rafters are broken, your ridgepole is
destroyed; the mind set on attainment of nirvana has attained extinction
of desires."
In BMA 41-2 Fozdar states:
"It is to this Unknown Inaccessible Absolute that Siddharta [sic] directed
his exultance: '_I have...again and again_.' These '_many births_' are
merely cognitions, or, "'being born' to the knowledge" of those illusions
that often pose as reality and the accompanying pain at recognizing them
for what they are.. Siddharta's questing mind having cut through the
illusions and exposing their nothingness is bestowed with omniscience
by the Absolute [Fozdar's footnote here: 'Because an Absolute
exalts the Holy Persons'] in accordance with It's [sic]
own inscrutable law of Manifestation -- Buddha-rising. Siddharta then
expresses His exultance at becoming aware of the Absolute ('the builder
of the house') and recognizes this becoming aware of the Absolute is
itself the attainment of Nirvana."
GB 136-7:
"Some commentators on this verse have claimed that 'craving' or
'desire' (_tanha_) is the _maker of the dwelling_ or _builder of the
house_ which is being addressed by the newly become Buddha. This is
not likely since this word _tanha_ is mentioned only once and only at the
end of the verse in relation to _the extinction of desires_ (_tanhanam
khayam ajjhaga_), and is nowhere referred to as a person (_him_).
Moreover, the Buddha clearly tells us that craving is simply a by-
product of ignorance and not the fundamental cause of holding us in
bondage within the _cycle of becoming_. ... Hence, it is much more
likely that his exultance was directed at a power (some 'thing' or some
'one') above Him whom He addresses as _him_, _the builder of the
house_ (the 'house' being the physical and psychological personality of
Gautama) and that these first verses are a joyous proclamation
expressing gratitude to the _builder of the house_ for at last having
shown 'himself' to Gautama's questing mind."
It should be first noted that the word translated as nirvana in this text is
_visankhara_. _Vi_ like _a_ is a privative, and as we have seen earlier
sankhara is a variation of sankhata. Visankhara and asankhata/asamskrta (the
"Absolute" that exalts the Holy Person) are equivalent words referring to
nirvana, which Fozdar has no apparent insight into.
As for _tanha_, craving:
"I [the Buddha] am an all-transcender, an All-knower, unsullied in all
ideas, renouncing all, by craving ceasing freed, and this I owe to my
own wit. To whom should I point?" Dh 353
"Craving is the sempstress, for craving sews one to the production of
this or that becoming." AN III 399.
"At that time when a being lays aside this body and rises again in
another body, for that I declare craving to be the fuel." SN IV 400.
"This body came into being by craving, and based upon craving, craving
should be let go." AN IV 159.
"Just so, monks, I see no single fetter by which beings for a long time
run through samsara, like the fetter of craving." It 8.
"Craving cause man to be." SN I 39.
"With craving as a mate, man journeys along, long time in samsara." It
109.
"What, monks, is the Noble truth about the origin of suffering? It is
craving, which gives rise to fresh rebirth." DN II 308
"It is called nirvana because of the letting go of craving." SN I 39.
And from the real Sanskrit "Dhammapada":
"O sense-desire, I know your root. From thought-construction do you
arise. I shall no longer construct you in my thought. Then I shall no
longer have you." Udanavarga II 1.
Though it would quite easy to quote many more such passages, these
few are enough to give some idea of the importance of _tanha_, craving,
in the Pali texts, and in face of Fozdar's eisegesis it is only with this
sort of exegesis that verses can be understood. Clearly, when the
Dhammapada verses 153-4 are seen in connexion with the above
passage, Fozdar's contentions find no support. For example, the words
of the first passage are not those of a revelationist. If the Buddha had
felt gratitude to an "Unknown and Inaccessible Absolute" for having
bestowed upon him omniscience and nirvana, the Buddha would not
have claimed to be an "All-knower," to have ended craving, etc through
his own ability, finding no one except himself to point to for his release.
These passages confute Fozdar's contention that the "maker of the
dwelling" is a god: men, being, and body -- the psycho-physical being,
the _house_ -- come into being by the cause, the "fuel," of craving.
Craving gives rise to rebirth, it is the cause of suffering. Craving is the
fetter that holds us "in bondage within the cycle of becoming," samsara.
Craving is personified not only as a "builder of the house," but also as
a semptstress and a mate. And with the Sanskrit "Dhammapada" craving
is addressed directly as it is in Dhammapada 153-4. In GB 134 Fozdar
defines ignorance as "disbelief in the _Uncreated_ or _Unmade_,
[which] is the cause of all error and sorrow," but lack of belief has
nothing to do with _avijja_, ignorance or unwittingness:
"And what, monks, is ignorance [avijja, literally: non-seeing]? It is
absence of cognition into suffering, the origin of suffering [which is
defined as craving, _tanha_], the cessation of suffering, and the way to
the cessation of suffering." SN XII 12.
However you cut it and explain it culturally, the bottom line is that
Fozdar's works are a polemic; they are an arrogant polemic against
Buddhism as it understands itself, and I am doing naught more than
addressing the polemic, showing it for what it is: empty of any
substance, insight or value (except the value of negative example).
As I have said Fozdar may be nice to his dog and generally an all round
good guy, but he has written two rather bad polemics that do nothing to
further any understanding between Buddhism and Baha'i for either
Buddhists or Baha'is. If anything it creates a distance between the two.
And this is really the bottom line.
Bruce
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 16:29:27 +1100
From: Ahmad Aniss
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: secert of footnotes
Dear Talismanians,
For our amusement I have collected some of the footnotes which one can see on
e-mails to Talisman and I tried to comment on them. May I emphasise that the
opinions stated here are only of mine and not of the list owner or any body
else.
The first one is from Burl Barer, the chairman of Walla Walla Barber shop who
happens to collect reminiscences from life of a drunken sailer together and
named
it "man overboard" and is trying to sell it by dropping overboard every one on
Talisman with his book.
> *******************************************************
> MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer may be ordered on-line from Book Stacks,
> Unlimited or from your favorite book store!
> ISBN#1-56901-815-4 $19.95 Suggested Retail Price
> ********************************************************
He even takes the role of critics and states that the book is "a good book"
and hints on the content, that we gonna get less pages for our money's worth.
> *******************************************************
> MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer is a good book, but Polly Whitney's
> UNTIL THE END OF TIME has more pages.
> ********************************************************
and from our dear Miserable of Alaska (Arsalan J. Sadighi), we get a reply to
Burl
saying you wrote it but who is there to care about it.
> "You can present the material, but you can't make me care."
>
> Calvin and Hobbs
So dear Arsalan if you are presenting a material surely you would like to see
someone that cares to read it, if not, why bother. Mind you I could relate
myself
at this point to your next quote which is
> "Nothing adds excitement to your life like something
> that is clearly none of your business!" Battista
O Boy! Battista must have been a mean nosy kind of guy! Like me surely at this
point. But I don't think any of us could be so nosy and brave enough to dare
and
ring 919 666 9999, U.S.A. Three sixes and four 9's, God is this place a
Vampire's castle or a house of worship, that I have to find out for the sake of
Ayla and let others know but I must say I didn't want to provoke our dear mama
Quanta to turn on on Ahmad "the Appleseed" and add the following footnote on
her posts again. I wonder this Great Creation of God is made of Random
Connections.
> ****************************************
> Random connections cause great creations.
> ****************************************
> (919) 666-9999 U.S.A.
> Call! if you dare
And I hope Philip Belove is right and A. Einstein has got it right, surely
things
random like this can't get any more tangled and harder. Most of people on Earth
don't know what E=mc**2 means let alone life.
And one more comment does it matter if your message came to me by a knight
"Chameleon" or a donkey I still gonna get the same message, am I not?
> -------------------------------------
> Name: Philip Belove
> E-mail: belove@sover.net
> Date: 02/13/96
> Time: 07:51:16
>
> This message was sent by Chameleon
> -------------------------------------
> Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A. Einstein
Our dear Hannah confused of her gender and awaiting a transformation of her
seed writes that she is in a battle with friends and if she writes she is
sitting in
judgment of her self. I wonder what was Ibsen's gender. Dear Hanna is it
friends
or fiends you are referring to.
> -------------
> "To live, is to battle with fiends, in the vaults of heart and mind.
> To write: that is to sit in judgment of one's self." Ibsen
> -------------
and I hope it wasn't broken pieces of glass that Suzanne Vega devoured by
mistake.
> "And she said, 'I've swallowed a secret burning thread,
> It cuts me inside, and often I've bled.'" - Suzanne Vega
> ----------
I wonder if artistic talent of our dear Hannah has transformed too.
> The Artist Formerly Known As Cary
> -----------------------------------
> "But Eeyore was saying to himself,' This writing business. Pencils and
> what-not. Over-rated, if you ask me. Silly stuff. Nothing in it.'" A.A. Milne
So why bother to put it on paper?
And one of those free ads. I might say. Please refer to Burl's ad.
But sounds like an ad for a romantic book hot from the press. I hope you see
what I mean: "will hold you breathless with excitement and suspense until the
very
end".
> **************************
> Buy the WINDOWS NT RESOURCE KIT an inspiring part of which was
> written by our very own Hannah Reinstein (under her old name).
> Published by Microsoft Press and available at book stores everywhere.
> Its gripping drama of TCP/IP parameters, network performance tuning,
> and net server installation will hold you breathless with excitement and
> suspense until the very end. DO IT NOW!
>
> ***************************
I haven't figure out this yet, let you know what it means soon.
>Shal-OM Shanti Shanti
>
>Zaid Lundberg
Then we reach the spirituality comment by Don. Dear Don spirituality is a state
of mind if you are high on it so be it. In any case how can one prove one is
or is
not, shouldn't we let that be in the hand of God's.
> He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
Dear Dann, let me know when our ignorance can over come our own ignorance
and I will let you know the secret of our ignorance.
> Warmest greetings, Dann May, Philosophy, OK City Univ.
> ---
> * WR 1.32 # 669 * We must overcome the ignorance of our own ignorance.
And Michael ends things with a quote by Abdu'l-Baha
So let it be.
> Michael Moum (mmoum@inwave.com)
> Beloit, Wisconsin, USA
>
> God made religion and science to be the measure, as it were, of our
> understanding. Take heed that you neglect not such a wonderful power.
> Weigh all things in this balance. (`Abdu'l-Baha: Paris Talks, page 145)
I wonder whether all the above should have been disclosed, and or it is timely
but
I hope this post is sweet to the capacity of those who hear it. Also is it
"HomePape" or "Home Page".
> Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
> Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
> http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
> appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
> "Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
> everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
> timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
> hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Indeed Sen if you contemplate on the Seed of Creation thou would behold the
signs of thy Lord's Mercy.
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-3216854
> Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
> 6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
> ***
> When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
> and the individuality of each,
> thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
No wonder that our dear Cheshmak is signing her e-mails off with the following
message and a WINCK.
> Scared and Confused in Virginia
> Cheshmak A Farhoumand
and this brings me to Steven. I have to say I love your footnote, short and
sweet.
mind you, you should be careful of it, never miss typing the "S" or you will be
mistaken instead of J. Coles by the way is there any relations with that dear
chap
of ours.
> Steven S. Coles
> Seattle, Washington State, U.S.A.
>
So they say if you can't fight them join them so here is my footnote.
With warmest thoughts,
Ahmad.
***My Dear Seeds of Creation may the Force be with you. "Ahmad (extracts
from star track)".***
_______________________________________________________________________
^ ^
^ Dr. A.M. Aniss, Tel: Home [61(2)] 505 509 ^
^ Bio-Medical Engineer, Work [61(2)] 694 5915 ^
^ Neuropsychiatric Institute, Mobile 019 992020 ^
^ Prince Henry Hospital, Fax: Work [61(2)] 694 5747 ^
^ Little Bay, N.S.W. 2036, ^
^ Australia. Email: A.Aniss@unsw.edu.au ^
^_______________________________________________________________________^
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 00:37:30 -0600
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Bruce Burrill
Subject: Re: Buddism: dogma vs love & compassion
> 'Dear brother: in Zen we would ask "Show me create. If U open ur
mouth ur already dead. If u don't answer ur a stinking corpse. Quickly,
quickly, what is ""create""?
I rather they discussed what can be done for the Iranian man that was
condemned to death for returning to the Bahai faith after converting to
Islam. The religious court condemned him to death because he
converted to Islam to save his job, or some bullshit like that. And it is
people like the ones discussing bulshit buddhism that forget what the
teachings of all religions are really about: love and compassion for
yourself and your fellow humans, not some dogma.
Thanks for the mail, brother. Love w' <
Gosh, darn. There is always that endearing Zen anti-intellectualism that
cuts us to the quick and keeps us true. Ouch, ouch, ooch!
Of course, Zen Brother is quite correct that in the scheme of things
death is a far more serious issue than one man's polemic against
another's religion, which is what I am have been self-indulgently trying
to expose. And of course love and compassion, for oneself and one's
fellow sentient beings, is what religions is about, for the most part, but
certainly that is not quite the whole picture. One of the important things
that fosters love and compassion is understanding, and there are many
levels and types of understanding, which our dear Zen Brother seems to
sort of have forgotten. And if it bullshit, and no doubt it is, it naught
more than a rich manure on the field of bodhi giving us thick, fertile
soil.
Quick, dear Zen Brother, show us love and compassion, but don't open
your mouth and don't move any part of your body.
Gassho,
Bruce
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 23:23:39 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: frlw@midway.uchicago.edu
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu, Masumian@mail.utexas.edu, Noorbakhsh.Monzavi@hibo.no
Subject: Reuters 2/15/96 (fwd)
> 'IRAN' STORIES
>Transmission date: 96/02/15
> 1. 14:30 IRAN CENTENARIAN MARRIES 20-YEAR-OLD WOMAN
> 2. 12:49 IRANIAN NEWSPAPER SAYS RUSHDIE SHALL BE KILLED
> 3. 08:55 IRAQ SLAMS IRAN FOR REBEL KURDS TEHRAN VISIT
> 4. 08:19 IRAN BLASTS U.S. FOR CRITICISM OF FARRAKHAN VISIT
> 5. 07:26 PAKISTAN OFFICIAL TO VISIT IRAN FOR AFGHAN TALKS
> 6. 05:09 IRANIAN EXILES SAY THREE FROM SAME FAMILY EXECUTED
>
>=START= XMT: 14:30 Thu Feb 15 EXP: 4 :00 Sun Feb 18
>
>
> Iran centenarian marries 20-year-old woman
> TEHRAN, Feb 15 (Reuter) - An Iranian newspaper on Thursday criticised the
>marriage between a 107-year-old man and a woman 87 years younger, saying such
>weddings only allowed chauvinistic males to gloat over their virility.
> The daily Kayhan International said the wedding between the centenarian and
>the 20-year-old woman was recently held in a village in southern Iran.
> The English-language paper said the case may be unique but added that it
>represented ``social realities of the day'' which could not be ignored.
> ``Poor rural women in most of the societies all over the world face the
>same problems...viewed as social liabilities... taunted for being
>female...(they are) given off in marriage to any man who comes along,'' the
>daily said.
> ``He may be old, decrepit and incompatible, but as long as he can provide,
>he is eligible and qualifies,'' it added.
> Such marriages ``only provide a chance to chauvinistic men to gloat over
>male virility,'' Kayhan International said.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 12:49 Thu Feb 15 EXP: 2 :00 Sun Feb 18
>
>
> Iranian newspaper says Rushdie shall be killed
> TEHRAN, Feb 15 (Reuter) - An Iranian newspaper said on Thursday British
>author Salman Rushdie would certainly be killed according to the religious
>ruling issued by Iran's late leader Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini.
> ``This ruling is like an arrow that has left the bow and will certainly hit
>the target,'' the daily Jomhuri Eslami said.
> ``There is no foreseeable end to this case other than the application of
>Islam's ruling,'' the hardline daily added.
> ``The Islamic ruling against Salman Rushdie, the apostate author of the
>book 'The Satanic Verses', is still valid and no one, no official, can revoke
>it at any time,'' it said in reaction to a call by the European Union on Iran
>to abide by international law and drop the seven-year-old death sentence.
> Khomeini issued the fatwa, or religious edict, on Rushdie on February 14,
>1989, condemning the Indian-born author to death for alleged blasphemy against
>Islam in his novel.
> The daily Iran News said the Rushdie case was a British ploy to hurt
>Iran-EU ties.
> ``European countries with close ties (with Iran)...such as Italy, Spain,
>France and Germany, must clearly understand that this whole affair is a
>British-designed political ploy...,'' the English-language daily said.
> ``If Europe is concerned with its future global power-sharing requirements,
>it must understand the crucial and significant role Iran plays in world affairs
>and in the Persian Gulf region,'' the newspaper said in an editorial comment
>entitled ``The Insignificance of the Apostate Rushdie.''
> The daily repeated Iran's official stand that it would not seek to kill
>Rushdie, but added: `` The fatwa is a religious edict which must be heeded by
>Moslems of all denominations.''
> The official Iranian news agency IRNA on Wednesday quoted a Kyrgyz Islamic
>religious leader as saying that Moslems in the Central Asian republic were
>ready to kill Rushdie.
> The European Parliament urged the Iran on Thursday to make a written
>declaration that it would not carry out the fatwa and will seek to restrain
>Iranian citizens from trying to do so.
> Iran has repeatedly said the edict is a purely religious matter, unrelated
>to the government. EU sources have said Tehran has refused to put the pledge on
>paper.
> Several Iranian dailies on Wednesday hailed the death order in low-key
>observance of the edict's anniversary. Iranian officials and state-run media
>refrained from comment.
> Rushdie on Wednesday attacked the West for not doing enough to have the
>fatwa revoked.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 08:55 Thu Feb 15 EXP: 8 :00 Sun Feb 18
>
>
> Iraq slams Iran for rebel Kurds Tehran visit
> BAGHDAD, Feb 15 (Reuter) - Iraq hit out on Thursday at its neighbour Iran
>for contacts with Baghdad's Kurdish foes capped by a rebel delegation visit to
>Tehran this month.
> The official Iraqi News Agency (INA) said a foreign ministry spokesman
>declared his ``denunciation and condemnation'' of such contacts and advised
>Iran to halt interference in Iraq's Kurdish region.
> The spokesman said a rebel Kurdish group, which he did not identify, was
>invited to Tehran to take part in the celebrations ``of the so-called victory
>of the Islamic revolution'' and the visit was highlighted by Iran's media.
> ``Practices like these represent persistence on Iran's part to meddle in
>Iraq's internal affairs, encouraging such cliques to carry on with their
>criminal practices and dubious contacts,'' the spokesman said.
> Iraq is wary of increased Iranian influence in its Kurdish region, which an
>allied airpower protects against possible attacks by Iraqi armed forces.
> Iran is using its influence to bring peace between rival Kurdish factions.
>Its pro-Kurdish Hizbollah (party of God) is said to be operating freely in the
>area.
> The spokesman said Iran's presence and contacts with Kurdish rebels would
>not help improve already strained relations.
> ``The government of the Republic of Iraq, while denouncing such contacts,
>urges the Iranian government to steer away from dubious paths and ways which
>inflict heaviest damage on bilateral relations,'' said the spokesman.
> The two countries held talks on Wednesday on issues dating back to their
>ruinous 1980-1988 war, including prisoners of war and troops missing in action.
> Iran says 5,000 to 10,000 prisoners are still held by Iraq. Iraq denies
>holding any Iranians and says more than 20,000 of its troops still languish in
>Iranian jails.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 08:19 Thu Feb 15 EXP: 8 :00 Sun Feb 18
>
>
> Iran blasts U.S. for criticism of Farrakhan visit
> TEHRAN, Feb 15 (Reuter) - Iranian state radio on Thursday rejected U.S.
>criticism of Black Muslim leader Louis Farrakhan's visit to Iran, saying
>American blacks could now question Washington's ties with Israel and world
>dictators.
> ``Criticism of the visits of the black leader of the Nation of Islam to
>other states will... bring condemnation on the meetings of U.S. officials with
>sultans and presidents-for-life of despotic systems that lack parliaments,''
>Tehran radio said.
> ``From now on blacks and other Americans will have the right to strongly
>protest against trips by Washington officials to Occupied Palestine (Israel),''
>it added.
> The radio was commenting on remarks by a U.S. State Department spokesman
>blasting Farrakhan for ``cavorting with dictators'' during visits to Libya and
>Iran.
> ``American blacks have already vehemently protested against (Washington)
>giving billion dollar loans and aid to the Zionist regime, and this is why they
>raise slogans... (against) Zionists for sucking the blood of poor Americans,''
>the radio said.
> Farrakhan has been criticised in the past for his attacks on Jews and
>whites, but he said in Tehran he believed religious piety, not race, determined
>who was superior.
> Farrakhan arrived in Iran on Saturday with a 35-strong delegation to attend
>celebrations marking the 17th anniversary of the revolution that brought the
>late Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini to power. He had earlier visited some African
>states.
> He shared the speaker's podium at the main anniversary rally on Sunday with
>President Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani and Iranian media gave wide coverage to his
>meetings with other top leaders.
> The controversial black leader was quoted by an Iranian newspaper as saying
>in Tehran: ``You can quote me: God will destroy America by the hands of
>Moslems.''
> An Iranian newspaper said Farrakhan left Tehran on Tuesday night for Iraq,
>and was later to visit Turkey and Syria.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 07:26 Thu Feb 15 EXP: 7 :00 Sun Feb 18
>
>
> Pakistan official to visit Iran for Afghan talks
> ISLAMABAD, Feb 15 (Reuter) - A senior Pakistani official will visit Iran
>this weekend to promote moves aimed at bringing peace to war-shattered
>Afghanistan, a foreign ministry spokesman said on Thursday.
> The spokesman told reporters that the ministry's top official, Najmuddin
>Sheikh, would visit Tehran on February 17-18 to follow-up his talks with
>Iranian deputy foreign minister Alaeddin Boroujerdi in Islamabad last week.
> Both sides reported unspecified progress in their February 8 talks.
> The spokesman said Iranian and Pakistani efforts could only be directed at
>counselling and advising the Afghans to find a peaceful settlement to their
>differences.
> Sheikh's visit to Tehran will follow several days of meetings in Islamabad
>among the leaders of some of Afghanistan's major opposition factions which seek
>to oust President Burhanuddin Rabbani's government in Kabul.
> Four opposition factions grouped in a Supreme Coordination Council have
>said they are seeking to form a grand alliance with other opponents of Rabbani
>to oust him by force if he refuses to hand over power peacefully to an interim
>administration.
> Pakistan denies Kabul's allegation that it helps opposition factions, while
>Iran denies helping Rabbani, a charge levelled by the powerful opposition
>Taleban Islamic militia, which has besieged Kabul since last October.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 05:09 Thu Feb 15 EXP: 5 :00 Sun Feb 18
>
>
> Iranian exiles say three from same family executed
> GENEVA, Feb 15 (Reuter) - An Iranian opposition group said on Thursday Iran
>had executed three of its members, all from the same family, in prisons in the
>west of the country.
> The Paris-based National Council of Resistance of Iran, in a statement
>faxed to Reuters in Geneva, named the three as Azar Hassani, 31, her brother
>Alireza Hassani, 36, and their cousin, Sadeq Hassani.
> The Council, linked to the Iraq-based Mujahideen Khalq guerrilla group,
>called on a United Nations human rights investigator now in Iran to look into
>the alleged executions.
> The investigator, Maurice Copithorne of Canada, arrived in Tehran last
>Saturday on a six-day mission to prepare a report for the U.N.'s Human Rights
>Commission which meets next month.
> The Council statement identified the three as ``Mujahideen political
>prisoners'' and said the executions took place some 10 days ago in Hamedan and
>Kermanshah.
> At the weekend, a senior Iranian official told Copithorne that human rights
>issues were being used ``as a tool of great powers to put pressure on specific
>countries.''
> Deputy Speaker of Parliament Hassan Rowhani, a Shi'ite Moslem cleric, said
>Iran did not expect much from the Commission because of what he called the
>double standards of international bodies which ignored ``blatant U.S.
>interference'' in the affairs of Iran and other countries.
> At the same time, Iran's state radio accused Western countries of trying to
>use ``so-called abuses of human rights in Iran as a propaganda tool against the
>Islamic Republic'' and criticised Reuters for extensively quoting a statement
>from the National Council of Resistance on Copithorne's visit.
> In the past, Iran has been repeatedly accused before the Human Rights
>Commission of widespread human rights abuses.
> But Tehran officials reject the criticisms, saying they are based on biased
>reports or on lack of knowledge about the Islamic principles on which Iran's
>laws are based.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 16:43 Wed Feb 14 EXP: 6 :00 Sat Feb 17
>
>
> Farrakhan blasted for Libya, Iran visits
>(Adds details, quotes, background)
> WASHINGTON, Feb 14 (Reuter) - The U.S. State Department on Wednesday
>blasted Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan for ``cavorting with dictators''
>in Libya and Iran but viewed South African President Nelson Mandela's contacts
>more temperately.
> ``I would just say that we have seen the press reports of the tour that Mr.
>Farrakhan has made of Africa and the Middle East,'' State Department spokesman
>Nicholas Burns said.
> ``I think it's shameful that an American citizen, much less a major
>religious leader in the United States, cavorts with dictators like (Libyan
>leader Muammar) Gaddafi and the Iranian leadership,'' he told reporters.
> Farrakhan was quoted by an Iranian newspaper as saying in Tehran: ``You can
>quote me: God will destroy America by the hands of Moslems.''
> Burns, at a news briefing, said of the fiery and controversial Nation of
>Islam leader:
> ``It's extraordinary that first he went to Tripoli to stand with Gaddafi,
>who bombed Pan Am (Flight) 103, is responsible for the death of 269 people; and
>then went to Tehran to stand with people who support international terrorism
>all over the world, including terrorist acts against American military
>personnel and American civilians.''
> He referred to the bombing of the Pan Am flight over Lockerbie, Scotland in
>1988 and to the takeover of the American embassy in Tehran by Islamic radicals
>in 1979.
> But asked about Mandela's invitations for Gaddafi and Cuban leader Fidel
>Castro to visit South Africa, Burns made clear that Washington had no intention
>of picking a public fight with a country and government considered ``a very
>good friend'' of the United States.
> ``It's our view that Gaddafi is an international outlaw and if he does go
>to South Africa, people there should remind him that he's responsible for the
>bombing of Pan Am 103,'' he said. ``We believe the best course with Gaddafi is
>to isolate him, and we certainly would have preferred continued isolation.''
> ``We certainly don't contest the right of the South African government to
>determine who it wishes to invite to its country (but would hope) they be
>subjected to harsh criticism and harsh questioning about their own actions,''
>he added.
> Burns said U.N. resolutions do not prohibit contacts with either Libya or
>Cuba but do advise that ``countries should not enhance their diplomatic
>relations with Libya, and we certainly don't expect that will happen as a
>result of this.''
> U.S. officials have raised the matter of Mandela's contacts with Gaddafi
>and Castro with the South African leader, Burns said, adding:
> ``We have great respect for President Mandela, and we have excellent
>relations with South Africa, and I'm sure that the discourse we're going to
>have on this particular issue is going to be constructive.''
> Farrakhan arrived in Iran on Saturday with a 35-strong delegation to attend
>celebrations marking the 17th anniversary of the revolution that brought the
>late Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini to power.
> He shared the speaker's podium at the main anniversary rally on Sunday with
>President Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani and Iranian media gave wide coverage to his
>meetings with other top leaders.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>
>
>
=END=
From: "Eric D. Pierce"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 1996 11:15:08 PST8PDT
Subject: adventures in data processing/ RE: resurrection of Ahmad?
Greetings Dearest One,
I'm going bonkers trying to get an Oracle SQL*Net
Netware 3.12/Win95 (database) installation done at a
training site here. Do you have time to help me
clarify some TCP/IP net terms and concepts? I'm used
to good old Novell SPX/IPX at my primary work site
(Oracle netware server/DOS clients), all this TCP/IP
Win95 stuff seems like a big pain!
Thanks,
EP
ps, sending this to talisman so that Drs. Burl/Dereck
will realize that they could be making incredibly big
bucks in exciting careers as software "therapists"
instead of writing those silly fictions and peddling
books.
pps, TCP/IP is NOT a new brand of fancy computerized
toilet paper.
> Date sent: Thu, 15 Feb 96 05:57:45 UT
> From: "Hannah E. Reinstein"
> To: talisman@indiana.edu, "Ahmad Aniss"
> Subject: RE: resurrection of Ahmad?
...snip
> **************************
> Buy the WINDOWS NT RESOURCE KIT an inspiring part of which was
> written by our very own Hannah Reinstein (under her old name).
> Published by Microsoft Press and available at book stores everywhere.
> Its gripping drama of TCP/IP parameters, network performance tuning,
> and net server installation will hold you breathless with excitement and
> suspense until the very end. DO IT NOW!
>
> ***************************
>
=END=
From: Member1700@aol.com
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 09:20:33 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Agreeing with the House
Quanta-jan:
Let me get this straight. Both you and I agree with the decision of the
House of Justice (which allows those fluent in Persian and Arabic to consult
the original text when making translations to other languages based on the
English translations). But you do not find my agreement acceptable because
it is not offerred in the right way. Is that right?
I must confess that I find this difficult to comprehend. The only way
that I can understand it is by reference to notions of the Baha'i covenant
which demand that the believer must always remain silent, since it is only
the head of the Faith who may speak. Therefore, even a critical agreement
with the decisions of the House of Justice (which evaluates all the evidence
and concludes that the House has made the very best choice possible) is
unacceptable because it implies that the believer may have a right to say
anything at all. What is required is a kind of numb assent, or perhaps
mindless cheerleading.
Well, sorry, as I explained in a post on the subject a couple of days
ago, that is not how I understand the Covenant of Baha'u'llah. I do not
think that it requires (or even encourages) silence, but a diversity of
opinions held together by the unity of the community.
If one agrees with the House on a subject, then I think that one should
agree as a whole person--mind and all--and not as a matter of blind faith.
Anything less, I believe, would be unworthy.
Warmest,
Tony
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 09:16:06 -0600
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: Bryan Stover
Subject: Historic Baha'i Holy Land photographs on WWW now
Dear friends,
Announcing the "Album of Views" Gallery on the World Wide Web, an=20
adaptation by Raymond Ng Tong Leng of the work of Duane Troxel at:
http://www.nwark.com/~bstover
Here are a couple of relevant paragraphs from the first page:
THE ALBUM OF VIEWS GALLERY
INTRODUCTION TO THE COMPUTERIZED "ALBUM OF VIEWS"
Research and Commentary by Duane Troxel of Diversity Press Ltd.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 42 hand-tinted photographs that make up the core of this electronic
publication were scanned in from an early Baha'i publication whose title
page states: "Views of Acca, Haifa, Mt. Carmel, and Other Places,"
published by the Baha'=ED Publishing Society, Chicago, U.S.A. The exact=
title
and publication date of this work has never been firmly established in the
various bibliographies that have been produced over the years. For example:
The "Baha'i World", Vol. 17 (1976-79), p. 572 gives a close approximation
to the actual title page: "Views of Acca, Haifa, Mount Carmel and Other
Holy Places". It states the book was published in 1918 in "paper, cloth and
leather."
One of the things which makes this book so extraordinary, besides its age,
historical importance, and the coloring of the pictures is that
`Abdu'l-Baha approved the images Himself. The title page declares: "THESE
PHOTOGRAPHS WERE DULY AUTHORIZED BY ABDU'L-BAHA AND ARE PLACED IN THIS FORM
FOR THE BENEFIT OF THOSE WHO LONG TO SEE "THE DWELLING PLACE OF THE MOST
HIGH."
[...]
ABOUT THIS WEB GALLERY:
As the author of this web gallery, I wish to make it clear that I am
responsible only for the HTML programming of these web pages. The old and
new commentaries, the scanned images and the introductory passages were all
the works of Duane Troxel and other Baha'is. I merely took what is
essentially public domain material and put it together in a web document.
And Duane Troxel, if you happen to be reading this, please send Bryan
Stover (the maintainer of this gallery), an email message at
h-s@intellinet.com.
- Raymond Ng Tong Leng
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The "Album of Views" can be downloaded via ftp as a 1.5 megabyte MS-DOS=20
zipped archive for viewing on your local machine from this location:
ftp.intellinet.com/pub/users/h-s/album1dl.zip
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
You are cordially invited to visit the "Album of Views" when you're out
and about on the web. For those of you with Baha'i web pages, we'd be=20
honored if you'd like to establish a link to this site.
Best wishes, Bryan Stover
wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
Bryan Stover, Fayetteville AR Baha'i Library =20
(501)839-3588 =20
See the "Album of Views" and "Baha'i Graphics Gems" at =20
=20
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 11:02:54 EST
Subject: Re: Agreeing with the House
Dear Tony,
On several occasions in the past few months I found your comments
to be on the borderline between confidence---arrogance.
I haven't kept your postings, so I cannot give examples, now.
What I was saying is. What if the House decided differently than
you expected? Would it be proper for any of us to use the term
that their decision is "ABSURD" because we did not agree with it?
You have a right to disagree. But, hopefully you will choose the
proper manner in which you are expressing your opinion about it.
There is a big difference in the way the current American public relates
to their leaders than the way the Founders of our Faith prescribed.
I also think this is not what the Founders of America had in mind.
IMO, we in America created the leaders that we have. We put
pressure on them for our own vested interests. Women scream for
their rights to abortion, men scream for their rights to own guns and
watch pornography, entertainers want rights to be disgusting on radio and
TV, homosexuals scream for their domestic partnership rights (sorry Dan,
believe me I am not being fickle here) rights this and rights that
and we became the slaves of freedom, trying to legislate things until
we no longer money left in the pot for the next generations. I can go on and on.
We fight for rights about the most absurd things I ever heard of.
Now, what do you expect these guys to do to get elected. Of course,
they are gonna lie through their teeth. Or, imagine that they can
please everyone. If, they tell the truth they cannot get elected. So,
they become corrupted trying to please everyone. In politics,
there are various categories. Good people-bad government,
bad government-good people, bad government-bad people,
good government-good people. Where do you think we fall in?
From time to time, I hold my nose and have a mint and lemon
tea by my side, in case I get nauseated and watch TV and
listen to radio talk shows. What I see tells me that we put ourselves
about 100 years behind in spiritual development in spite of the
technological advancement.
Even when surfing on the internet, I see flies coming from social
landfills and sewage dumps and spreading psychological disease.
There are a few honeybees flying from the wonderful fields and
sharing nectars to nurture human minds. Be A HONEYBEE!!
love,
quanta
****************************************
Random connections cause great creations.
****************************************
(919) 666-9999 U.S.A.
Call! if you dare
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 08:05:17 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: HELP!! MEN!!
To: talisman@indiana.edu
To: Bahai-st@jcccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us
---- Begin Forwarded Message
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Received: from cc:Mail by usbnc.usbnc.org id AA824482805 Fri,
16 Feb 96 07:00:05
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 07:00:05
From: "BOSCH"
Message-Id: <9601168244.AA824482805@usbnc.usbnc.org>
To: Bahai-Campus-Forum@bcca.org, Bahai-Announce@bcca.org,
CalBahais@gsb-yen.stanford.edu
Subject: HELP!! MEN!!
Please pass the word amongst your communities of this great need
and
exciting opportunity!
Bosch Baha'i School needs male role models to serve as Cabin
Counselors during it's two children's academies. These must be
Baha'is over the age of 18 who work well with children in
4th,5th,and
6th grade. The dates for the two sessions are; March 29-April 2,
and
April 7-11. Each cabin counselor will be given materials to
assist
them in their mentoring of these youth and will be an active part
of
the entire program. I have received all of the assistance I need
for
the female cabin counselors, however, I am still NINE male cabin
counselors short of the numbers I need for the male cabins. Where
are
all our male mentors/teachers out there??????????????????
PS. The cabin counselor must not be the father of one of the
participants in the program as we are making an effort to have the
children establish a Baha'i identity of their own, away from their
parents.
Contact:
Linda Bedford
Bosch Baha'i School
(408) 423-3387
Fax: (408) 423-7564
or send an E-mail right back to me.
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 08:05:45 -0800
From: derekmc@ix.netcom.com (DEREK COCKSHUT )
Subject: Fwd: Children's Teacher needed at Bosch Baha'i School
To: talisman@indiana.edu
To: Bahai-st@jcccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us
---- Begin Forwarded Message
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id FAA14485; Fri, 16 Feb 1996 05:39:13 -0800
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Fri, 16 Feb 96 05:09:16-PST
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Received: from cc:Mail by usbnc.usbnc.org id AA824482804 Fri,
16 Feb 96 07:00:04
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 07:00:04
From: "BOSCH"
Message-Id: <9601168244.AA824482804@usbnc.usbnc.org>
To: Bahai-Announce@bcca.org, Bahai-Campus-Forum@bcca.org,
CalBahais@gsb-yen.stanford.edu
Return-Receipt-To: BOSCH@usbnc.org
Subject: Children's Teacher needed at Bosch Baha'i School
Please pass this along to anyone who might be interested. Thank
you
very much!
Warmest regards,
Linda Bedford
Co-Administrator
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Bosch Bah?'? School still has an immediate opening for an
energetic
and vibrant children's teacher who is available to serve at the
school
for at least six months. This is not a paid position at this time,
however, we will provide room, board and a small stipend.
Necessary
qualities include:
1. Spiritual maturity and humble, loving devotion consistent
with
serving and living in a 24-hour per day service community.
2. Love for the friends and a deep love of children.
3. Experience teaching children of various age groups either in
a
professional setting or in an extensive capacity as a Bah?'?
School
teacher. Core Curriculum training is preferred but not essential.
4. General spiritual capacities and personal characteristics of
service, exemplary behavior, friendliness and spirit of
hospitality,
perseverance and flexibility, and a strong work ethic are most
important.
5. A willingness to adapt teaching styles to new visions for
spiritual education as directed by the National Education Task
Force and
the National Spiritual Assembly.
Please submit resume or request application and information from:
Linda Bedford, Co-Administrator
Bosch Bah?'? School
500 Comstock Lane
Santa Cruz, CA 95060
(408) 423-3387
(408) 423-7564 Fax
E-mail: bosch@usbnc.org
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 08:55:43 -0800
To: "Hannah E. Reinstein" , SFotos@eworld.com,
"Burl Barer"
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: RE: Revenge of the Daughters
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
OK I just want to say that this is my first trip down to Bosch... I
thought I would go and meet other people that I don't know and no body knew
me, but now I am finding out the whole dang neighborhood is showing
up.... Gads.
I will behave, I promise...
Margreet
At 02:03 AM 2/16/96 UT, Hannah E. Reinstein wrote:
>Uh oh. I'm bringing Ben, my 16 year old son, down with me. His favorite groups
>are Soundgarden and Metallica. The kids can croon heavy metal lullabies to one
>another and model the latest in grunge wear. It should be a hoot. In my family
>though, I'm the one who slurps quarts of coffee and makes the smart remarks.
>The poor kid has learned patience and loving forbearance by living with me all
>these years .
>
>Hannah
>
>----------
>From: owner-talisman@indiana.edu on behalf of Burl Barer
>Sent: Thursday, 15 February, 1996 16:16 PM
>To: SFotos@eworld.com
>Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
>Subject: Revenge of the Daughters
>
>--------------------->
>>Well, if Anea is there, then Helen should come too--the subtitle of Richard's
>>film is then: THE REVENGE OF THE DAUGHTERS.
>>
> Yes, Anea is coming to the mystical conference. She will probably have
>blue hair. You will have no problem recognizing her. She will be the one
>slurping quarts of coffeee and making smart remarks. She does have a lovely
>singing voice and we should ask her to sing something mystical -- she'll
>probably warble something by HOLE.
> Dr. Burl
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>*******************************************************
> MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer is a good book, but Sandy Fotos' book is
>written by a smart woman and not a smarmy man.
>********************************************************
>
>
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 11:39:47 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: QUANTA DAWNLIGHT
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Agreeing with the House
Quanta: I sometimes disagree with you but I usually find that I can
admire the underlying values that lead you to say what you say.
However, this post has me completely mystified. It seems to me to
demonstrate an antiliberal yearning for an organic society in which there
are no individual views, no group interests at odds with others. It is a
yearning that is apparent in Kemalism in Turkey, and you must know how
repressive it turned out to be. Women, Kurds, practicing Muslims were
declared simply not to exist as separate interest-groups, and it was
insisted that they melt into the organic unity of Kemalist society.
Ataturk and his successors knew what was good for these groups, and they
should just do as they were told . . . or else.
Liberal societies involve a constant process of negotiation and
consultation among various groups (which are usually constructed and
fluid) that perceive themselves to have different interests, in an
attempt to approximate the greatest good for the greatest number. This is
the process of "demanding rights" (why shouldn't they?) that you
condemn. At any one time in the process there will be imbalances, which
will encourage groups that perceive themselves at a disadvantage to
organize to redress them.
I see these processes as good and healthy. In the US, they have produced
the most stable large society in the world, which still has the same
constitution after more than 200 years. This can be said of very few
other societies.
I am afraid I think in your ardent desire for an organic unity that rules
out social criticism or the appeal by oppressed minorities to their rights
and rules out anything but a monochrome organic unity, you would end up
constructing a rather repressive society that I, certainly, would not like
to live in. Given your past postings on women's rights and on the need
for more social justice for the working class, I don't think you really
would either. So why adopt this organicist rhetoric?
cheers Juan Cole
On Fri, 16 Feb 1996, QUANTA DAWNLIGHT wrote:
> Dear Tony,
>
> On several occasions in the past few months I found your comments
> to be on the borderline between confidence---arrogance.
> I haven't kept your postings, so I cannot give examples, now.
>
> What I was saying is. What if the House decided differently than
> you expected? Would it be proper for any of us to use the term
> that their decision is "ABSURD" because we did not agree with it?
> You have a right to disagree. But, hopefully you will choose the
> proper manner in which you are expressing your opinion about it.
> There is a big difference in the way the current American public relates
> to their leaders than the way the Founders of our Faith prescribed.
> I also think this is not what the Founders of America had in mind.
>
> IMO, we in America created the leaders that we have. We put
> pressure on them for our own vested interests. Women scream for
> their rights to abortion, men scream for their rights to own guns and
> watch pornography, entertainers want rights to be disgusting on radio and
> TV, homosexuals scream for their domestic partnership rights (sorry Dan,
> believe me I am not being fickle here) rights this and rights that
> and we became the slaves of freedom, trying to legislate things until
> we no longer money left in the pot for the next generations. I can go on and
on.
> We fight for rights about the most absurd things I ever heard of.
> Now, what do you expect these guys to do to get elected. Of course,
> they are gonna lie through their teeth. Or, imagine that they can
> please everyone. If, they tell the truth they cannot get elected. So,
> they become corrupted trying to please everyone. In politics,
> there are various categories. Good people-bad government,
> bad government-good people, bad government-bad people,
> good government-good people. Where do you think we fall in?
> >From time to time, I hold my nose and have a mint and lemon
> tea by my side, in case I get nauseated and watch TV and
> listen to radio talk shows. What I see tells me that we put ourselves
> about 100 years behind in spiritual development in spite of the
> technological advancement.
> Even when surfing on the internet, I see flies coming from social
> landfills and sewage dumps and spreading psychological disease.
> There are a few honeybees flying from the wonderful fields and
> sharing nectars to nurture human minds. Be A HONEYBEE!!
>
> love,
> quanta
>
>
> ****************************************
> Random connections cause great creations.
> ****************************************
> (919) 666-9999 U.S.A.
> Call! if you dare
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
=END=
Subject: More on Baha'i in Yazd Under Death Sentence
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 11:57:57 -0500 (EST)
From: "Donald Zhang Osborn"
Allah'u'Abha! Here's more on the recent death sentence given to a Baha'i
in Yazd, Iran (received from a friend). DZO
>WASHINGTON, Feb. 15 /PRNewswire/ -- The Spokesman for the U.S. Department of
>State today condemned Iran's action in sentencing an Iranian Baha'i to death
>for apostasy.
>
>Representatives of the American Baha'i community welcomed U.S. Government
>support for the Iranian Baha'is and urged other governments and the United
>Nations to join in protesting the death sentence.
>
>Following are the official State Department statement and an explanation of
>the case released by the U.S. Baha'i group, which represents 120,000 American
>Baha'is. There are more than 300,000 Baha'is in Iran, by far the largest
>religious minority group in that country.
>
>Official statement from the U.S. Department of State spokesman Nicholas
>Burns, Feb. 15, 1996:
>
>"We have learned that a court of the Government of Iran has sentenced a
>member of the Baha'i faith, Mr. Zabihullah Mahrami, to death for apostasy.
>
>"The United States Government strongly condemns the conviction and the
>sentence and calls upon the Iranian Government to repudiate them, to release
>Mr. Mahrami, and to take all steps necessary to ensure his safety.
>
>"The United States further calls on the Government of Iran to cease its
>persecution of the Baha'i and other religious minorities and to comply with
>the International Convention on Civil and Political Rights."
>
>The National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the United States issued
>the following explanation of the case:
>
>* Yazd Court Sentences Baha'i: Mr. Zabihullah Mahrami, a 49-year-old Baha'i,
>was convicted of apostasy and sentenced to death by the Islamic Revolutionary
>Courts of the Province of Yazd (January 2, 1996). The sentence has been
>appealed to Iran's Supreme Court. The timing of the Supreme Court
>consideration is not known.
>
>* Verdict finds apostasy based upon rejection of Islam: The court maintains
>that Mr. Mahrami, who was born into a Baha'i family, became a Moslem in 1981
>and that after seven years, he returned to the Baha'i Faith. He was arrested
>on September 6, 1995 on charges of apostasy. The verdict states that on three
>occasions (October-December, 1995), Mr. Mahrami reaffirmed his Baha'i beliefs
>and refused to repent his alleged apostasy, although he would be spared the
>death sentence if he embraced Islam.
>
>The court found Mr. Mahrami guilty of "denouncing the blessed religion of
>Islam and accepting the beliefs of the wayward Baha'i sect (national
>apostasy)."
>
>* Threat to Christians and other converts from Islam: Iran officially
>recognizes Judaism, Christianity and Zoroastrianism as religions whose
>members are afforded legal protection. If this verdict is upheld, however,
>an adherent of one of these religions who had converted from Islam could be
>prosecuted and would face the death penalty for apostasy. (Note: Iran does
> not recognize the Baha'i Faith as a legitimate religion, and all Iranian
>Baha'is are regarded as "unprotected infidels." In defining apostasy,
>however, Iranian clerics distinguish between Baha'is born into a Baha'i
>family and those who converted from Islam to the Baha'i Faith.)
>
>* Action violates international law: The Yazd court verdict violates the
>International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, of which Iran is
>signatory. The Covenant specifically provides for an individual's right to
>have a religion, not to have a religion, or to change his religion.
>
>* Baha'is urge protest against Iranian action: Baha'is in the U.S. and other
>countries urge government action and public protest to persuade Iran to set
>aside this verdict and to permit free choice of religion, according to
>international law.
>
>* Three other Baha'is under death sentence: Two Baha'is condemned to death
>in 1992 for membership in the Baha'i Faith are still in prison in Karaj and
>have appealed to the Supreme Court. The third was released from prison in
>late 1993 but still faces charges of apostasy and could be rearrested.
>
>CO: National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the United States
>
>ST: District of Columbia
>
--
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 08:55:24 -0800
To: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi), talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re: how mystical can this be?
At 10:44 AM 2/15/96 -0900, Arsalan J. Sadighi wrote:
>My preferred method involves the use of a hammer, drill, duct tape, and a
>scalpel; but that is another story altogether.
>
> Yours truly,
>
>Miserable in Alaska
>Arsalan J. Sadighi
>
>
> "You can present the material, but you can't make me care."
>
> Calvin and Hobbs
Hello all,
I figured out what to do with the hammer, drill, and scalpel, but what do
you do with the duct tape?
Kickin' in Kirkland...
Margreet
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 08:55:40 -0800
To: belove@sover.net, talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re: FW: Men are Shallow
Phil.. we never said men are jerks... We just said 'shallow' or at least I
did..
When a man starts in the conversation about what he wants in a mate, he goes
for the physical attraction,... Do I care what my mate looks like? NO,
because in my prayers, I ask God to send one who is attractive to me.
Meaning that I am the only women he has to be 'attractive' too... I don't
give a rip if other women think my man is 'ugly' just as long as I find him
'attractive'... And any man who 'dogs' us women because we don't fit the
'image he wants' deserves to be 'bashed', smashed, and just plain choked.
I could get nasty, but I am a lady...
Had it with shallow men... God, give me some with some substance to hang
on to....
Margreet
At 06:56 PM 2/15/96 PST, belove@sover.net wrote:
>This is outrageous men bashing and only fractionally true.
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 08:55:30 -0800
To: "Hannah E. Reinstein" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re: Crossing Lines
Dear all, Moderation has to do with what we do and our relationship to God
when we do it. If what we are doing intervenes with our remembering of God
in our daily lives then it is in excess. Anything were we forget God, is
beyond moderation. I was raised with the theory that if we abuse that from
God, He takes it away from us.
I got into body building, and at one point was not seeing my friends or
trying to find new friends in the weight training arena. All I was doing
was going to work, going to the gym, going home, eating--had to eat
according to what my trainer said and when, and sleeping. I was obsessed.
That car accident was a God-given 'accident'. A wake up call. I was not
using moderation.... and I didn't attend any Bahai functions, as I had to be
asleep by 7 each night. To be up at 3 am to work out before going to work.
Just a thought!
Margreet
At 02:18 AM 2/15/96 UT, Hannah E. Reinstein wrote:
>Reflections:
>
>We each determine what the line is for ourselves and what moderation is. For
>example, what I'm doing with my life has caused some scornful and threatening
>looks from the knuckle-draggers out and about. Going to the supermarket has
>occasionally became a drama instead of a routine. That doesn't make me wrong.
>I'm in a medically recognized and long-established therapy program to fix what
>is essentially a birth defect. And I'm staying in it.
>
>My point is simply that if something is not forbidden in the writings, it's
>permitted. Other writers have stated this much better on Talisman recently.
>Anything else is between a person and their own heart and also between them
>and their Creator.
>
>I do aerobics (Nordic Track) for 30 minutes a day at least six days a week and
>follow it with 40 or more sit-ups. I've done as many as 200 sit-ups after the
>regular workout. For some people that's immoderate but not for me. Not to
>brag but that'd kill some folks I know. At the office, my editor, Kate, has
>her back and arms covered with tattoos. Kate's a sweet and extremely
>intelligent person who says that getting tattooed is a very spiritual
>experience. Different strokes, I say! If it is to her and it hurts no one, who
>cares? I envy her courage and individuality. I can appreciate her feelings but
>wouldn't choose quite that kind of spiritual experience myself though.
>
>Today, because Baha'i came up in lunchtime conversation, Kate asked me how it
>deals with gender issues. I told her that it's considered a medical issue and
>otherwise not mentioned. Therefore it's okay. She asked what I'd do if it were
>forbidden to change your natural sex and nurtured gender (my words). I paused
>for a long moment. Then I said that I wouldn't do it. So she asked what would
>I do instead? And I said: "My life would be over." So you see, moderation
>isn't a fixed line. My spiritual mother/sister/friend wrote me the other day
>that Baha'u'llah knows what is in our hearts and what is right and good for
>us. So, if we pray for guidance and yield to the will of God, we'll surely
>know what lines we can cross and how far we might go. Whether it's tattoos,
>body-building, physical endurance such as marathons or mountain climbing, or
>anything else, the principle that applies is simple. Is it good for you? Does
>it make you happy? Does Baha'u'llah have anything to say about it? Does it
>enhance your human potential? Does it enable you to function better in the
>world and contribute your gifts to it? Okay, then go for it.
>
>In the immortal words of the great philosopher, B. McFerrin, "Don't worry, be
>happy."
>
>Hannah
>-------------
>"To live, is to battle with fiends, in the vaults of heart and mind.
>To write: that is to sit in judgment of one's self." Ibsen
>-------------
>"And she said, 'I've swallowed a secret burning thread,
> It cuts me inside, and often I've bled.'" - Suzanne Vega
>----------
>From: owner-talisman@indiana.edu on behalf of Marguerite K. Gipson
>Sent: Wednesday, 14 February, 1996 11:54 AM
>To: Alec Bourne; talisman@indiana.edu
>Subject: Re: Tattooless in Seattle (& everywhere?) (fwd)
>
> There is nothing wrong with, IMO, 'enhancing' one's attributes to the
>extent of moderation, but to cross that line, is another matter.
>
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 09:02:41 PST
Subject: FW: intellectual pride
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Forwarded from a friend .
In some ways it steps back and asks for a restatement of earlier parts ofour
conversation. I think this is a good exercise, this business of summarizing.
In my experience the summaries almost always advance the clarity of
thinking.
In addition, this posting shows many of the secondary effects of Talisman.
It's happened here in Brattleboro and I imagine it is happening elsewhere.
There is a hunger for throughtful conversations about the tenents of the
Bahai faith. This secondary audience for Talisman -- my Tuesday lunch group,
for example, only half of whom are directly connected and the rest of whom
are reading selected postings -- is fascinated by and attracted to the
vitality of these conversations. Last weekend we had a deepening and it went
the old way,the pre-Talisman way and our people complained about how dead
and filled with platitudes the discussion was. "I'm tired or hearing the
same old thinking said the same old way.
The sentiment was so surprising for me to hear. People spoke up about the
deadliness of the deepenings whom I never imagined would be thinking such
things. (I've often thought so, but have kept it to myself and gradually
stopped going to them.) I opted for Talisman, the never-ending open for
business 24-hours deepening.
But people seem to be waking up and getting hungry. All for the better I
should say.
Anyway, we'll call this thread "intellectual pride" and I'll forward
postings with that name to Jackie. Thanks
Philip
On Thu, 15 Feb 1996 11:37:35 -0500 OdessJ@aol.com wrote:
>As for the ongoing discussion about the Institutions, I have some things to
>say. I do not believe that the "administration" is always right. Rather,
I
>believe that if we see something wrong in the Faith ---*anything*--- we are
>asked to handle this challenge as true Baha'is, which means, within the
>confines of the Covenant. I do not invoke the Covenant "to stop people
from
>talking". Maybe other people do. That is not my purpose.
But the Covenant
>is clear about how to go about dealing with difficult challenges. I know,
>because I've had to confront some things, both institutionally and
>individually, that seemed very unfair, very un-Baha'i, and I had to grapple
>with my own anger in doing so. Believe me, I searched and searched the
>Writings to give myself justification for confronting people (that was *my*
>way of doing things.) I couldn't find any. So I had to learn how to deal
>with myself, how to come to terms with my own anger and frustration.
That
>was, if I wanted to be faithful. And I did, desperately perhaps, want to
>remain faithful. I had to find ways that did not include backbiting or
>criticizing, either.
>
>I found two ways. The first was prayer: I had to constantly monitor my
own
>motives, attitudes and behaviors. It helped me tremendously. I grew past
a
>lot of my adolescent rebelliousness, a lot of my untempered anger and
>reactivity. I learned to recognize the emotion, step back, detach myself
>from it, find a space of peace and wisdom, of *spirit*, if you will, to
come
>from. I learned to know the difference.
I learned the guidelines of
>*venting" to be only in the context of my own therapy, which might include
a
>private, agreed-upon session with another human being, but never publicly.
> Then it becomes back-biting and criticism, in my opinion, and ceases to be
>therapy. It is a very fine line, I believe, and a very, very important one
>for me.
>
>The other way of addressing problems that seemed to me, in my study of the
>Writings, to be acceptable, was through consultation. What this means to
me
>is that I can always communicate with any Institution, through writing or
>through an audience, as the case may be, until I feel that I have said
>everything I have to say, and heard everything they have to say. If I
>address an Institution, and they respond in a way I feel is deficient, I
have
>the right to go back to them again and explain why I feel their response is
>deficient. And I can continue this process, taking my issues to higher and
>higher levels, if need be, if I feel that we have both said everything
there
>is to say and have not come to resolution, until all has been said at the
>highest level.
>
>I wonder if those who feel they have been shabbily treated by the Universal
>House of Justice ever expressed those thoughts and feelings directly to the
>House?
>
>I believe there are two aspects to this principle (I perceive it as a
>principle) of individual communication with institutions.
The first is, the
>responsibility of the individual to be a leader, to not assume if he or
she
>sees something, that therefore the institution either should already know
it
>or that they must be right and the individual wrong. I believe this is one
>reason why we have no clergy, and one of the meanings of "Man is a mine,
rich
>in gems of inestimable value...", as well as pertinent to the whole subject
>of Oneness and equality which the Baha'i Faith constantly promotes. It is
>*our responsibiltiy* to communicate what we see, not someone else's, not
some
>Institution's, or some Counsellor's, or some Auxilliary Board Member's.
This
>is what it means to be a leader: this is what it means to be a Baha'i. If
>we do not take this responsibility, we have no right to complain, because
we
>did not add our piece, we did not try to make it better.
Sure, we'll get
>flack from time to time, we'll be misunderstood. So what??? Didn't
>Baha'u'llah and the Bab and Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi and all the
>Martyrs and every Saint that ever lived and everyone who ever truly tried
to
>be faithful take flack and be misunderstood???
>
>What is sacrifice, anyway? Is it money alone? Could it be our emotions?
> Our egos? The reactions we have that are less than worthy?
>
>But the other point is this. It *does* matter how we say it. We are not
>children, throwing temper tantrums when we get frustrated and do not get
our way. We simply *cannot* assume that we're right and they're wrong
because we're smarter, or we're intellectuals.
For God's sake, weren't the priests that were responsible for the murder of
Christ intellectuals??? That alone is simply no credential for truth!
What ever happened to humility?? We can back up our points with the
Writings, and it is good to do that. We can state, respectfully, when we
disagree. But if we are all leaders, we need to grapple valiantly with our
own souls, as we try to express our truth for the sake of truth, for the
sake of humanity, for the sake of the Faith.
Didn't Baha'u'llah Himself tell us that "Knowledge is the most grievous
veil"? Didn't He set up this Order Himself, and enjoin it upon us to love,
nurture, respect and obey it? Didn't He command us to behave with dignity,
with unity? Didn't He forbid dissension and conflict --- even to the point
of leaving His Family and friends and isolating Himself in the mountain
fastnesses just to avoid being a cause of disunity? Didn't 'Abdu'l-Baha say
that the most hateful thing in His sight was criticism?
>Someone said she "would fight if I felt I was being deprived of what I
>consider to be basic human rights." Is that the example that the Baha'is
in Iran are setting for us? And what's the point, then, of their sacrifice,
if they are not even willing to fight for their lives, and we fight because
we deem our intellectual opinions more valid than that of those whom *all*
the Baha'is have chosen to act on their behalf?
People are calling it
>censorship, and maybe it is, I don't know. Maybe, however, it's wisdom and
>prudence. The Faith has always adhered to the principle of progressive
>revelation. Even Baha'u'llah says, "Not everything that a man knoweth can
be disclosed, nor can everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely,
nor can every timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of
those who hear it." Gleanings, p. 176. Why do some people feel that they
are in a position to know better than those who have been chosen by, as I
said, *all* the Baha'is because of qualities such as spirituality and
competence? And if someone does feel they see something that these
Institutions have not seen, then let them enter into a respectful and
ongoing dialogue. Or has that been tried? If so, at some point, as
Baha'is, we have to turn to God in prayer, to be willing to leave it in the
Hands of God and have Faith. Otherwise we are not a religion, we are simply
a social movement.
>
>Philip, I would be grateful if you would forward these thoughts (minus the
>first paragraph) to Talisman. I would be interested to see if it can be
>helpful, and what people's responses might be.
>
>love, J
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 02/16/96
Time: 09:02:41
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A. Einstein
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 12:30:21 EST
From: Richard Harmsen
To:
Subject: honeybee
Dawn: Not to take sides - if it is possible - but IMHO you're
a honey bee! Rick
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 11:25:45 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: secert of footnotes
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Ahmad Aniss" , "Talisman"
>I wonder whether all the above should have been disclosed, and or it is
>timely but
>I hope this post is sweet to the capacity of those who hear it. Also is it
>"HomePape" or "Home Page".
>
>
>> Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
>> Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
>> http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
>>
>> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>> How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
>> appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
>> "Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
>> everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
>> timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
>> hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
>>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>
Dear Ahmad,
I wondered too. And I still wonder. But I still decided to put it out
there because this is no secret. For me Baha'u'llah pointed to the
essence of becoming in this passage. Also the formation of two words
into a compound with capitals at the beginning of each is a well
respected practice among those titling software packages, computer
proceedures, and corporations. So I believe it cannot be stated as one
instead of the other.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 10:57:37 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Dialog, Arguments and Quarrels
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Bruce Burrill" , "Talisman"
Cc:
>There is no reason to assume that I am taking solely a _Western_
>scholarly position to in response to Fozdar, and there is certainly is no
>reason to assume that Fozdar is taking some sort of sophisticated cross
>cultural position in relation to understanding Buddhism. Basically, all
>Fozdar is presenting is a polemic against the standard view of Buddhism
>as being _a_theistic in contradistinction to with what (some) Baha'is say
>what Buddhism should be. You can try to pretty it up all you want and
>you can try to excuse him by appealing to cultural differences, but his
>books are really nothing more than polemics.
Dear Bruce,
I believe our modems (views) have connected. Forgive me if I seem
longwinded in my response, but you touch upon so many pertinent issues
with a level of clarity--that I am prompted to give more than usual
attention to your remarks. It is true that to a certain degree, that I
would find difficult to accurately define, Mr. Fozdar's book IS a
polemic but not solely so. I don't think his book was primarily written,
though, for an audience of well-informed scholars. I discussed the book
with him as he was writing it, quite a bit, and it seemed like it was
being written in response to the Vietnamese and other far easterners whom
he had come into contact with when living in Vietnam for those many
years. Catholocism and Buddhism as far as I know are the two main belief
systems in Vietnam, Buddhism being the dominant of the two. The defects
of his book that you rightly identify, I believe, are grounded in that
experience. Nevertheless, what I have termed the cross-cultural aspects
of his work are in my estimate quite valuable as grist for a discussion.
I tend to look upon everything a person does *seriously* as art in some
sense. My background as a scholar, if you will permit, is involved in
criticism as: funamentally phenomenological. Thus " iesegetically
assigning meaning to Arya-Pudgala, for example?" can be quite valid
because the reader and his response is connected on a deeper level. One
would would have to evaluate the quality Mr. Fozdar's "inner being" to
comment on the actually validity, from my point of view, of his analysis
to some extent. If one is writing commentary on someone's poetry, for
example, they may take a variety of avenues towards that purpose; and
scholars will debate the efficacy of that attempt. Anyone engaged in the
shedding of light or the elucidation of an
Artistic/Revelatory/Mystic/ineffable source (knowingly or not) must be to
a certain degree "revealing being". Their own being. It is to the
fundamnetal unity of being that I have been addressing myself in our
discussion.
>Can I then assign
>meaning to "Manifestation of God" independently of what the Baha'i
>tradition tells us it means because the meaning I would give it would
>show a deeper understanding? Basically, this is what Fozdar has done,
>and this is what you are trying to defend.
Yes you can because the "Baha'i Tradition" is certainly not complete nor
is it seperate from your tradition, IMHO. Believing Baha'u'llah is the
"Manifestation of God" IS NOT the same as understanding it. Humans have
a right to their starting point and it would be bad form in my opinion to
even say that one really understands better because it is so difficult to
pin down exactly what that should be --in the sense that Don Juan, the
legendary Yaqui Mystic always said to Carlos Castaneda (Seperate Reality)
"You know but you don't know" . IMHO It is what one does with one's
understanding that is of import. My aunt who is a Baptist Christian has,
in my estimate, one of the most evolved human outlooks I've ever run
accross, and an excellent understanding of the Baha'i Faith, though she
doesn't call it that. From my point of view the *Names* Baha'i,
Christian, or Buddhist are the final veil that must be lifted from the
Human. Baha'i means follower of the light or truth.
>It should be first noted that the word translated as nirvana in this text is
>_visankhara_. _Vi_ like _a_ is a privative, and as we have seen earlier
>sankhara is a variation of sankhata. Visankhara and asankhata/asamskrta (the
>"Absolute" that exalts the Holy Person) are equivalent words referring to
>nirvana, which Fozdar has no apparent insight into.
>
>As for _tanha_, craving:
>
>"I [the Buddha] am an all-transcender, an All-knower, unsullied in all
>ideas, renouncing all, by craving ceasing freed, and this I owe to my
>own wit. To whom should I point?" Dh 353
>
>"Craving is the sempstress, for craving sews one to the production of
>this or that becoming." AN III 399.
>
>"At that time when a being lays aside this body and rises again in
>another body, for that I declare craving to be the fuel." SN IV 400.
>
>"This body came into being by craving, and based upon craving, craving
>should be let go." AN IV 159.
>
>"Just so, monks, I see no single fetter by which beings for a long time
>run through samsara, like the fetter of craving." It 8.
>
>"Craving cause man to be." SN I 39.
>
>"With craving as a mate, man journeys along, long time in samsara." It
>109.
>
>"What, monks, is the Noble truth about the origin of suffering? It is
>craving, which gives rise to fresh rebirth." DN II 308
>
>"It is called nirvana because of the letting go of craving." SN I 39.
>
>And from the real Sanskrit "Dhammapada":
It is true that Baha'is engage in a refocusing of theological traditions
because we feel that *Teachings* were culturally optimized because of the
individual requirements of particular peoples. One would not try to
treat every culture the same in all particulars. A gardener, for
example, may have to compensate for the acidity of the soil or levels of
sunlight. But not only that people themselves take teaching in their own
particular direction. Baha'is have recognized the beginnings of a world
culture and are attempting to re-examine previous cultures and traditions
in that light. As a westerner, I am trying to reword, as I understand
it, Mr. Fozdar's works. He may not agree with what I am saying but I
have said it in his presence before and we have had no disagreement on
this. You could in fact call me a disciple of Mr. Fozdar in the western
sense of a philosopher's mentor. He called me the leading member of his
"young lions" as he called a few of us, back in my early twenties. My
relationship to Mr. Fozdar doesn't explain your complaints but I'm
trying to bring some human context to the discussion.
Allow me to assure you that the distictions you draw between nirvana and
what Mr. Fozdar saw as a sign of Revelatory activity seems the most
obvious assignment of meaning--I believe it unfair though to draw the
conclusion that Mr. Fozdar is using trickery, or distortion. The Idea of
revelation that Baha'u'llah taught is very precise. Thus, It is not so
far-fetched to correlate nirvanic activity also "Satori" with revelatory
activity. The question in my mind is: What is the meaning of Buddhist
teachings within a global context? Does it require a "Higher Criticism"
now that humans no longer can legitimately errect cultural walls. My
whole argument has been around trying to look at A REAL HUMAN PHENOMENA
(enlightenment) in a cross-cultural way. I believe it would be unkind
and inaccurate to say the Buddhists have a monopoly on these experiences.
If you agree then it would follow that the language of the various
cultures is what is at variance not human experience. This I know for a
fact is the point of what you have termed Mr. Fozdar's "iesegessis". You
are not the first to have objected to Mr. Fozdar's style nor will you be
the last. But, because of your objections to his method's and style and
because of the personal confidence he has placed in me as a
philosopher/Baha'i I have chosen as other philosophers have done--to
place in perspective the writings of a mentor. This, I feel, I am
uniquely suited to do. Mr. Fozdar's method IS polemical but that is not
a good reason to not benifit from his point of view. Baha'is are called
upon to adhere to the unity of humanity not the competetive unity of His
followers. It is very important for Baha'is to be united among
themselves but not in defense against others. It is natural to think
that an attempt at establishing a "connection" could be an intrusion or
an outright invasion. But as to the "Networking" of humanity, to use a
modern analogy, Baha'is recognize the standard of implementation set by
Abdu'l-Baha regarding the protocol (Technology) given through
Baha'u'llah. The Baha'i Faith, in fact, sees itself from my relative
position, as a higher *Technology*. The Baha'is in concert with all
humanity are promoting that standard in the world. This is as precise as
I can be.
Your Servant
Richard
PS. I am embarrassed to say that I feel like I have been dominating your
time on this forum (unintentionally). I understood that you were invited
here to discuss Buddhism with us and I seem to have sabotaged that
(thrown a shoe into the machinery).
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
From: Rick Schaut
To: "talisman@indiana.edu"
Subject: RE: Agreeing with the House
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 09:53:10 -0800
Dear Juan and Talizens,
Juan writes:
>>However, this post has me completely mystified. It seems to me to
>>demonstrate an antiliberal yearning for an organic society in which there
>>are no individual views, no group interests at odds with others.
First, I rather thought Quanta was concerned about the
use of the word "absurd" with respect to decisions of
the Universal House of Justice. I don't believe this
extended even to other institutions in the Administrative
Order.
My only addition to what Quanta has said would be to point
out that this particular editorial comment had absolutely zero
informational value. Some opinions have value in that they
attempt to provide insights into the meaning of what the
Central Figures of the Faith have said. I welcome these
opinions with open arms. Other opinions are little more
than the writer's value judgement regarding things about
which I am perfectly capable of making my own judgements.
I find these opinions, especially when they are pitted
against even an hypothetical result of the consultation
of an infallible institution, to be a complete waste of both
the author's and my time.
Lastly, in my own judgement, whenever the Universal
House of Justice makes a decision which appears to me
to be absurd, there are only two possibilities: 1) I don't
have the same information they had, or 2) My sense
of the absurd needs revision.
Warmest Regards,
Rick Schaut
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 12:57:07 EST
Subject: (Fwd) Re: Agreeing with the House
Forwarded message:
From: Self
To: Juan R Cole
Subject: Re: Agreeing with the House
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 12:56:29 EST
> Ataturk and his successors knew what was good for these groups, and they
>Should just do as they were told . . . or else.
I, for one believe that Ataturk did great things to give birth to the
modern Turkey. Otherwise, they would be in the same situation as
some other islamic countries are where women aren't even
full-citizens.
>Liberal societies involve a constant process of negotiation and
>consultation among various groups
What consultation are you talking about? They all seemed to be
organized in different camps and constantly planning outdo one
another. What about the pro-life-anti-abortion groups. Give me a
break how many doctors have to die before these groups get together
and talk about the issues? I have been at the meetings of both camps
and suggested that since they are both concerned with the rights of
children born or unborn why don't they get together and use that as a point
of agreement and consult on these matters from there? They looked at me
as though I came from the moon? Or I was a spy from the other side.
I believe that these thousands of non-profit groups making billions
of dollars fighting for this and that have vested interests in
organic disunity? Hey! it sure brings in the money for their pot.
> (which are usually constructed and
>fluid) that perceive themselves to have different interests, in an
>attempt to approximate the greatest good for the greatest number.
I love this mathematical equation. I never thought of you to be an
admirer of Jeremy Bentham's theory. Is it okay then, that 60% of your
fellow-citizens have acccess to health care and 40% not? Instead, of
screaming about right to speech why don't you fight for right to
health of all human beings? I tell you this, a hungry and sick man
don't have the strength to speak up and you're keeping it that way.
>This is the process of "demanding rights" (why shouldn't they?) that you
>condemn.
I condemn nothing. Just to be wise and use your resources in fighting
the right causes for the right reasons and think in long-term
process.
>I see these processes as good and healthy. In the US, they have produced
>the most stable large society in the world, which still has the same
>constitution after more than 200 years.
SORRY! WRONG AGAIN! This is the most controlled society of them all.
It is so insidious that people are sleeping in their couches while munching
on poisons paid by their own hard earned dollars that they no longer
know if they are free or not. I can write a book load about this one.
>I am afraid I think in your ardent desire for an organic unity that rules
>out social criticism or the appeal by oppressed minorities to their rights
>and rules out anything but a monochrome organic unity, you would end up
>constructing a rather repressive society that I, certainly, would not like
>to live in.
WE are already repressed and don't even know about it! SCARRY!!
>for more social justice for the working class
Yes! so what are doing about this one?? Nothing! because everyone
likes to get their goodies for the cheapest price. Damn the workers,
huh?
****************************************
Random connections cause great creations.
****************************************
(919) 666-9999 U.S.A.
Call! if you dare
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 13:11:32 EST
From: Richard Harmsen
To:
Subject: re: agreeing with the House
Dear Mr. Cole (Juan): Can't you see that our society is way out
of balance? For instance that freedom has been exulted at the
detriment of other ideals. Obviously you took what Quanta said the
wrong way - in other words Quanta inadvertently pressed your censorship
button and you responded. But what she said has IMO nothing to do with
repression and censorship. It has to do with instruction and counsel.
Anyone can say anything they like. There is no Baha'i policy, for
example, which try to stop people from saying whatever they like. But
the reality is that words have a tremendous influence (no need to quote
"Individual Rights and Freedoms..." as I'm sure your well aware of it).
But as that statement makes so clear, process is crucial. If we don't
follow the divine guidance/process (ie. the spiritual principles)
that has been given to us, much of what the Central Figures have
bequeathed to us will be lost. No one could disagree with what you have
said (generally), but Quanta (and please forgive me Quanta if I am
misrepresenting you) IMO was only questioning
what she interpreted (whether she interpreted it correctly or not is
another question) as an inappropriate way of relating to, or referring
to the House of Justice. And it is hard for me to believe that there
are any Baha'is who can with a straight face say that it is proper
and acceptable to relate to the House or their guidance as if it were
on the same level as an individual opinion. To do so would be an
admission of ignorance. I don't see any real point of disagreement, as
love and reverence for the House of Justice is entirely compatible with
what Quanta wrote, and with the highest standard of individual freedom
and the preservation of individual rights.
Warmest regards, Rick H. Big Rapids, Mi.
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 13:04:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Jackson Armstrong-Ingram
To: talisman
Subject: Re: House of Worship
Re Ahang's comment:
The Guardian clearly stated that all of the Aqdas applied from the time
of its revelation unless a provision was in conflict with the local civil
law. When people talk about laws not applying, this is a slip in
precise English
use. It is not that they do not apply but that they are not being
_applied_ in the sense that nonobservance is not being sanctioned.
Jackson
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 19:13:52 +0100
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: Loni.BramsonLerche@ping.be (Loni Bramson-Lerche)
Subject: for computer programers only/help requested
Dear Baha'i friends,
As you probably know my family and I are pioneering in Belgium. One of the
greatest tests for pioneers is the education of their children. The
elementary schools here are spirit-killing. The secondary schools are
better, but the government has decided to amputate the funding for the
school system, so the teachers are on strike. It seems to be a
"strike-to-the-end". We are thus seriously undertaking the education of our
eldest son on our own, otherwise we might have to consider leaving our
pioneer post. He is 12 and in the 7th grade.
He is very interested in computer programing and until the teachers went on
strike was advancing by leaps and bounds in his computer programing class.
Could any of you advise us as to books or software we could buy for him so
he could continue to learn computer programing on his own? The school was
teaching Basic. Belgian schools are more advanced than US schools in math
teaching. They also teach more math theory. His math ability (if that is
important in choosing a book or software) would be 8th or 9th grade level in
the US, although they were just beginning algebra.
We have a multimedia pentium computer.
Thank you for any advice which you could give us.
Sincerely,
Loni Bramson-Lerche
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 19:13:18 +0100
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: Loni.BramsonLerche@ping.be (Loni Bramson-Lerche)
Subject: Re: translation of the Writings
Dear Prof. Cole,
Mr. Dreyfus' translations are no longer used. They were extremely important
in the early days of the Faith here, but were inadequate, to say the least.
Only one is still used, the Kitab-i-Iqan, and that is because his wife made
some kind of arrangement so the Dreyfus translation is the only one in
French that can be used. (I do not remember the details.)
Until I started working on my book I was quite involved in translating
Baha'i texts into French. This experience has shown me the wisdom, even
today, of translating Baha'i texts into French from English. Let me leave
it at that. I will add that we did, every once in a while, refer to the
original.
I find translating Baha'i texts very interesting. We (translating here is
done in teams) would begin work on a text, one that we thought we understood
very well, however, when we got into the nitty-gritty of the actual
translation(even when this was a letter from the Universal House of
Justice), we discovered that parts of the text were incomprehensible, that
is we could no longer understand them. The terms or sentences made no
sense. We discovered that the skills mentioned in certain postings as being
necessary for translating were not enough. We had to develop a new skill of
*deepening* the text. It is very hard for me to explain what we
experienced, but I can say that I have not found academic skills of primary
importance in translating Baha'i texts. One of the best translators of
Baha'i texts into French was Mme. Lea Nys. She only had a sixth grade
education.
As for the gentleman in Sweden, may I suggest contacting Dr. Widegren. I
assume that he is still in Sweden. He can answer all of your questions and
provide you with the texts you requested. He helped establish and run the
Nigerian Baha'i Publishing Trust. Please give him and his wife my loving
greetings.
Sincerely,
(Dr.) Loni Bramson-Lerche
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 12:22:55 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Agreeing with the House
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Juan Cole" ,
"QUANTA DAWNLIGHT" ,
"Arsalan Sadighi"
Cc: "Talisman"
>Liberal societies involve a constant process of negotiation and
>consultation among various groups (which are usually constructed and
>fluid) that perceive themselves to have different interests, in an
>attempt to approximate the greatest good for the greatest number. This is
>the process of "demanding rights" (why shouldn't they?) that you
>condemn. At any one time in the process there will be imbalances, which
>will encourage groups that perceive themselves at a disadvantage to
>organize to redress them.
My dear brother Juan,
I could never hope to speak for Quanta! But my chivilrous instincts have
caused me to rise to the defence that fair lady. I read her post and I
understand her frustration.
I believe she was saying if I maybe permitted an anology--"The is too
much noise on the line". In otherwords, the requirements of Baha'i
commuinications technology has a reccommend or limited noice level in the
"specifications" for connections to be established and errors of
transmission in that communications to be avoided. All of use modems and
we understand the problems of error transmission.
The problem she was describing, in my estimate, did not rise to the
grandiose level of the one Juan wsa refering to so there seems to be a
discussion problem called "crosstalk" in the telecommunications world.
To avoid this one must wait for the connection to be made and establish
an agreement on the protocols (understanding of each one's view) before
transmission of ideas can be attempted.
Arsalan Sadghi is a trained expert in this field and one whom I privately
refer to as my "big brother". I would defer to his expertise in the
matter of this analogy if he has any corrections or amplifications he
would like to make.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 12:32:11 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: FW: Men are Shallow
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Marguerite Gipson" , ,
"Talisman"
>When a man starts in the conversation about what he wants in a mate, he goes
>for the physical attraction,... Do I care what my mate looks like? NO,
>because in my prayers, I ask God to send one who is attractive to me.
>Meaning that I am the only women he has to be 'attractive' too... I don't
>give a rip if other women think my man is 'ugly' just as long as I find him
>'attractive'... And any man who 'dogs' us women because we don't fit the
>'image he wants' deserves to be 'bashed', smashed, and just plain choked.
>I could get nasty, but I am a lady...
>
>Had it with shallow men... God, give me some with some substance to hang
>on to....
Bravo Margreet!
But I know that there are qualities of masculinity that appeal to women
on that shollow level you were referring to. If that were so how would
one explain the facination with Brad Pitt or the Englishman Hugh Grant
or my wife's near obssesion with Alec Baldwin and his hairy chest, Black
hair and blue eyes. Let's face it, we all engage in shallow behavior.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePape "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 13:26:22 EST
From: Richard Harmsen
To:
Subject: Quanta Dawnlight
Dear Quanta: Forgive me for referring to you as Dawn instead of
Quanta in the honeybee post. I'm easily confused. Rick
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 10:54:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Steven Coles
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Postage Due Romance.
On Fri, 16 Feb 1996, Burl Barer wrote:
> If a Baha'i refuses to consider Unitarians,
> Jews, Catholics, or Pedestrians as potential mates. they are violating an
> essential Baha'i principle.
We UUs say the same in theory. In practice, we seldom find a non-UU
looking for a spouse who meditates with a beer in each hand. (Gave that
up for myself, but uphold other's rights to do it.)
> 3. Friendship flowering into romance via postal courier is the stuff of
> legend, the forerunner of many happy unions, and need not be decried as
> either impersonal nor indicitive of a social fault.
Duh. Now that you got my attention, that's pretty much what Anna, my
wife, & I did.
Steven S. Coles
Seattle, Washington State, U.S.A.
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 12:52:17 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Ceta Canyon Baha'i School, May 25-27
From: "Richard C. Logan"
To: "Bah=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=e1'=ed_Discuss?=" ,
"Talisman"
One of the Friends wrote me:
> Let's include mention in the Newsletter of the Ceta Canyon School to be held
>over Memorial Day weekend, Saturday, May 25th to Monday morning May 27th.
>Guest
>speaker is NAT RUTSTEIN who will have eleven hours of classes with the
>friends.
>He will be speaking about his new book "Way Out of a Trap". He will be fully
>utilized by the Amarillo friends before the school, and we can look for
>astounding results. Non-Baha'is are welcome at the school.
I just wanted to pass this along to any of the friends who might find
this of interest. I personally found Nat Rutstien's two books "Teaching
the Baha'i Faith" and "Winning Spiritual Battles" very helpful. I found
his approach a kind of PSYCHOLOGY OF BAHA'I PERSONAL TRANFOMATION. His
view seemed to me to have a great deal of validity.
If any of the Friends will be in the Amarillo kneck of the woods around
that time be sure to come--I'm gonna be there so y'all be sure to come on
down.
Richard
Richard C. Logan nineteen@onramp.net
Maintain HomePage "The Baha'is of Lubbock"
http://rampages.onramp.net/~nineteen/
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
How manifold are the truths which must remain unuttered until the
appointed time is come! Even as it has been said:
"Not everything that a man knoweth can be disclosed, nor can
everything that he can disclose be regarded as timely, nor can every
timely utterance be considered as suited to the capacity of those who
hear it." --Gleanings from the writings of Baha'u'llah
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 13:53:24 EST
Subject: Re: Agreeing with the House
Dearest Juan,
I meant for this to be talisman too! Just pushed the wrong button,
in more ways then I would believe.
love,
quanta
> Ataturk and his successors knew what was good for these groups, and they
>Should just do as they were told . . . or else.
I, for one believe that Ataturk did great things to give birth to the
modern Turkey. Otherwise, they would be in the same situation as
some other islamic countries are where women aren't even
full-citizens.
>Liberal societies involve a constant process of negotiation and
>consultation among various groups
What consultation are you talking about? They all seemed to be
organized in different camps and constantly planning outdo one
another. What about the pro-life-anti-abortion groups. Give me a
break how many doctors have to die before these groups get together
and talk about the issues? I have been at the meetings of both camps
and suggested that since they are both concerned with the rights of
children born or unborn why don't they get together and use that as a point
of agreement and consult on these matters from there? They looked at me
as though I came from the moon? Or I was a spy from the other side.
I believe that these thousands of non-profit groups making billions
of dollars fighting for this and that have vested interests in
organic disunity? Hey! it sure brings in the money for their pot.
> (which are usually constructed and
>fluid) that perceive themselves to have different interests, in an
>attempt to approximate the greatest good for the greatest number.
I love this mathematical equation. I never thought of you to be an
admirer of Jeremy Bentham's theory. Is it okay then, that 60% of your
fellow-citizens have acccess to health care and 40% not? Instead, of
screaming about right to speech why don't you fight for right to
health of all human beings? I tell you this, a hungry and sick man
don't have the strength to speak up and you're keeping it that way.
>This is the process of "demanding rights" (why shouldn't they?) that you
>condemn.
I condemn nothing. Just to be wise and use your resources in fighting
the right causes for the right reasons and think in long-term
process.
>I see these processes as good and healthy. In the US, they have produced
>the most stable large society in the world, which still has the same
>constitution after more than 200 years.
SORRY! WRONG AGAIN! This is the most controlled society of them all.
It is so insidious that people are sleeping in their couches while munching
on poisons paid by their own hard earned dollars that they no longer
know if they are free or not. I can write a book load about this one.
>I am afraid I think in your ardent desire for an organic unity that rules
>out social criticism or the appeal by oppressed minorities to their rights
>and rules out anything but a monochrome organic unity, you would end up
>constructing a rather repressive society that I, certainly, would not like
>to live in.
WE are already repressed and don't even know about it! SCARRY!!
>for more social justice for the working class
Yes! so what are doing about this one?? Nothing! because everyone
likes to get their goodies for the cheapest price. Damn the workers,
huh?
****************************************
Random connections cause great creations.
****************************************
(919) 666-9999 U.S.A.
Call! if you dare
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: rabbana@a1.bmoa.umc.dupont.com
Cc: Don_R._Calkins%*@commonlink.com, talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: House of Worship
Date: 16 Feb 1996 09:30:14 GMT
> as I believe implementation of *all* the laws of the Kitab-i
> Aqdas require permission of the Head of the Faith.
However, laws relating to the Mashri'qul-Adhkar are not listed n any of the
lists I've seen of laws not binding on Baha''is.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 14:41:15 EST
Subject: Ayla is 25 today!!!
I have a sweetheart who was born 2 days after Valentine.
And a little spook two days before Halloween. But,
October 29 is also the The National Liberation Day of Turkey.
So, I call them my liberty and sweetheart.
I will be off now with my little sweet (5'9") Ayla and celebrate!
love you all,
quanta
****************************************
Random connections cause great creations.
****************************************
(919) 666-9999 U.S.A.
Call! if you dare
=END=
Date: 16 Feb 96 11:42:30 U
From: "Dan Orey"
Subject: Re: Re- a man who is blind w
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Reply to: RE>Re: a man who is blind with
Robert,
Sorry, most gay people of taste at least, would never stand on (or for) blue
suede. Its very how shall I say, passe. Please .... its either ruby slippers,
or patent leather for us.
In tastefull consultation - Daniel
------------------------
Gays and antimetaphysicians and other strange bedfellows
have agreed that evil is best left to itself
but my father did say,
don' stan' on mah blue suade shoes...
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 11:00:09 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: You Dare Me?!
I called and got no answer. What is this, a joke or somethin'? I thought we
never ever joked on this blessed forum.
>
>
>
>****************************************
>Random connections cause great creations.
>****************************************
>(919) 666-9999 U.S.A.
>Call! if you dare
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Arsalan J. Sadighi
"Things are never quite as scary when you've got a best friend."
Calvin and Hobbes
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 11:10:25 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: RE: Agreeing with the House
1. There is nothing to be gained by openly disagreeing and criticizing the
Supreme Body.
2. I kinda like blind faith. I can leave the big stuff in the hands of an
Institution that Baha'u'llah Himself made It infallible. I can sleep at
night. I doubt all the recent martyrs asked whether they should agree or
disagree with the House. They simply obeyed and did what had to be done.
They did have blind faith. May we have their courage and spiritual insight.
3. Openly ridiculing (calling a decision of thet august Body absurd, is
ridicule) and disagreeing with the House can only erode confidence and trust
in the Administrative Order. UNITY is the OPERATING PRINCIPLE of the Baha'i
community. Without it all our efforts come to naught. I think this principle
also applies to Talisman. If we can not reach to a point of unity, we might
as well disconnect the line.
4. My question is if we can serch for the truth through a process of loving
consultation, rather than back and forth bickering. I think the priciples of
consultation should apply in this environment. Nobody is correct, regardless
of conscience, past expereinces, culture, etc. Until we can reach a
consensus based on logic and study of the Scared Text which must include the
writings of the Guardian. Simply posting quotations from the Master and
Baha'u'llah, without a diligent search to add the Guardian's views, is
simply unacceptable. He is the sole authorized Interpreter of the Sacred Text.
Arsalan J. Sadighi
"Things are never quite as scary when you've got a best friend."
Calvin and Hobbes
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 21:29:49 +0100
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: sconig@robin.no (nigel scott)
Subject: Parents - special blessing after death??
Cc: bahai-exchange-uk@bcca.org
Hello to all, this is my first contact with any group connected to the
"internet".
Does anybody know where in the Baha'i Writings it mentions the special
station non-baha'i parents get in the next world?? (if any)
Nigel S. Scott
Stavanger
Norway.
sconig@robin.no
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 12:59:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Laws of Kitab-i Aqdas
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
The *timing* of implementation of the laws of Aqdas is
prerogative of the Universal House of Justice which has the
obligation to inform the community when a particular law must be
observed by the community (or a subset thereof). These laws fall
in several categories:
1. Laws which presently the Western believers are exempt from
observance, such as, daily repetition of the Greatest Name, 95
times. These are mostly devotional in character and while per
se, there is no harm in observing them, at the present time there
is no obligation to do so either. (Incidentally, these laws are
binding on the Persian believers residing in the West, even if
they were born outside of Iran.)
2. Laws that are not universally applied. (The word applied is
the correct term in this context). These laws, for most part,
are in conflict with present civil laws, e.g. punishment for
murder, theft, arson, etc.
3. Laws which require specific authorization from the Head of
the Faith for *each* implementation. Such as, formation of new
Local Spiritual Assemblies (authorization is delegated by the
Head of the Faith to NSAs), formation of new National Assemblies,
construction of Houses of Worship, publication of (previously
unpublished) Texts, etc.
I know of no legislations from the Universal House of Justice
which would permit constructions of Houses of Worship *without*
specific prior authorization from the World Centre.
Now, if the friends wish to build Baha'i Centers (which
authorization is delegated to NSAs) and call it a place of
worship, or some other name, I don't see any problem. But I
don't believe they may call such places Houses of Worship a la
Kitab-i Aqdas.
If the friends in Omaha or any other community insist on building
a *Mashriqu'l-Adhkar* without prior approval of the Universal
House of Justice, based on my understanding, they are in clear
violation of the Covenant.
regards, ahang.
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 12:01:47 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu, Mark_Insteness@dot.state.ak.us,
70662.2417@compuserve.com, 71151.2720@compuserve.com,
DPMoore@ptialaska.net, sadighih@jsd.k12.ak.us, trickfam@ptialaska.net
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: A Modest Proposal
Dear Friends,
I need your help once again. I would like to propose that we start a weekly
deepening progarm on the Hidden Words. Each week we study one until we have
all had a chance to provide some thoughts, interpretations, meaning, etc. to
the one for that week.
This will be of inestimable value to me as the youth that I am working with
have questions that are too deep for this shallow man.
Gratefully yours,
Arsalan
Arsalan J. Sadighi
"Things are never quite as scary when you've got a best friend."
Calvin and Hobbes
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 11:57:29 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: A tablet's meaning
A very dear frind of mine asked:
"... about the tablet to 'Ali found in "Gleanings" CLXII. In
the fifth paragraph 'Ali is told to "Proclaim with both Thy pen and Thy
tongue..." Then, in the last paragraph He speaks of his 'inability to read and
write.' Any clarification would be greatly appreciated."
I have to confess my ignorance. I have no idea. Can somebody please help me?
Arsalan J. Sadighi
"Things are never quite as scary when you've got a best friend."
Calvin and Hobbes
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 14:09:25 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: "Arsalan J. Sadighi"
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Agreeing with the House
> He is the sole authorized Interpreter of the Sacred Text.
Arsalan jan, Hazrate vali-i aziz-i amr'ullah, Shoghi Effendi,
is not authorized to be a mubayyin; he is technically *not* an
Interpretor, and is not authorized to be such in the Will and Testament
of `Abdu'l-Baha either, let alone being the sole one. _Only_ `Abdu'l-Baha as
the markaz-i ahd va misaq-i amr-i illahi (Centre of the Covenant)
functions in the capacity of Interpretor.
Regards,
Nima
**************************************************************
* Paradox is a characteristic of truth. What communis opinio *
* has of truth is surely no more than an elementary deposit *
* of generalizing partial understanding, related to truth *
* even as sulphurous fumes are to lightning. *
* *
* --From the correspondence of Count Paul von Wartenburg *
* and Wilhelm Dilthey *
**************************************************************
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 16:21:12 -0500 (EST)
From: Juan R Cole
To: QUANTA DAWNLIGHT
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Antiliberalism
Quanta is among my favorite Talismanians, because she likes a good
intellectual fight and doesn't take it personally. So by all means lets
have another round
On Fri, 16 Feb 1996, QUANTA DAWNLIGHT wrote:
> I, for one believe that Ataturk did great things to give birth to the
> modern Turkey. Otherwise, they would be in the same situation as
> some other islamic countries are where women aren't even
> full-citizens.
There are things I admire about Ataturk. But he did make himself
dictator for life, and Kemalism was in many ways an extremely repressive
ideology. The Kemalists adopted the Swiss civil code, which is probably
the least progressive with regard to women of all European codes, and the
upper-class feminist movement Kemalists supported remained within a
relatively paternalistic framework. Ataturk himself, of course, adopted
a number of teenaged girls with whom he apparently had affairs. Ataturk
also absolutely hated Islam, which he blamed for all Turkey's faults. The
1920s and 1930s were times when it was thought that a massive one-party
state with an imposed mass ideology was necessary for an agrarian country
to "catch up" to the early-industrializing ones. It turns out that in
fact this etatism in the long term simply held back development, because
one-party states lack flexibility and impede individual initiative.
Cole:
> >Liberal societies involve a constant process of negotiation and
> >consultation among various groups
>
Quanta:
> What consultation are you talking about? They all seemed to be
> organized in different camps and constantly planning outdo one
> another. What about the pro-life-anti-abortion groups. Give me a
> break how many doctors have to die before these groups get together
> and talk about the issues? I have been at the meetings of both camps
> and suggested that since they are both concerned with the rights of
> children born or unborn why don't they get together and use that as a point
> of agreement and consult on these matters from there? They looked at me
> as though I came from the moon? Or I was a spy from the other side.
> I believe that these thousands of non-profit groups making billions
> of dollars fighting for this and that have vested interests in
> organic disunity? Hey! it sure brings in the money for their pot.
This strikes me as simple cynicism. Modernity involves having lots of
different lifeworlds, which will inevitably come into conflict. This
conflict is worked out in liberal politics through the formation of
grassroots interest groups that attempt to influence public opinion and
law. The process is noisy and contentious, but it generally works out
over the long run, and allows a great deal of flexibility in confronting
changing situations. Most importantly, majority opinion on the whole
tends to win, which seems to me the fairest way of deciding such divisive
issues. The argument over abortion rights in the US is
particularly bitter, not because it is a liberal argument, but precisely
because some people have imported into it notions of an infallible Pope
or an infallible scripture and of moral absolutes. Nevertheless, the
struggle has largely been waged through lobbying, protests, the press,
legislation and the courts. It has been divisive, but not fatally so.
And it is impossible to avoid such contests in society. In Soviet
society this problem was avoided and social peace was maintained by a)
banning the belief in infallible religious absolutes, on pain of
imprisonment, and b) state bureaucrats making abortions easily available
by fiat, without the possibility of popular input. This is the only way
to avoid politics, that is, through dictatorship. I prefer to put up
with a little noise of politics and to avoid dictatorship.
> > Cole: (which are usually constructed and
> >fluid) that perceive themselves to have different interests, in an
> >attempt to approximate the greatest good for the greatest number.
>
> Quanta: I love this mathematical equation. I never thought of you to
be an
> admirer of Jeremy Bentham's theory. Is it okay then, that 60% of your
> fellow-citizens have acccess to health care and 40% not? Instead, of
> screaming about right to speech why don't you fight for right to
> health of all human beings? I tell you this, a hungry and sick man
> don't have the strength to speak up and you're keeping it that way.
You have to decide whether you want to pursue a Left or a Right critique
of liberalism. They don't rest on the same bases.
Now, I am not, as you know, a laissez-faire liberal, but rather a social
democrat. And so I agree with your critiques of the US as not very
hospitable to the working class and the poor (certainly by European
standards)--though we should be careful to say that wealth inequalities
in the US are about the same as in Turkey and that US workers and poor
are certainly better off than their counterparts in Turkey.
I voted for Clinton in part precisely because he pledged to get health
insurance for the 36% of Americans who do not have it. This a goal that
could have been achieved if the electorate had not turned radically Right
in 1994. Nevertheless, health insurance for all is a viable and winnable
goal in a liberal society, and we shall just have to keep fighting for it.
By *abolishing* liberal politics and putting in a Castro who would order
proper health care for everyone, we could theoretically solve this
problem. We would, however, create lots of other problems, of lack of
freedom of speech, and economic stagnation, and ideological
regimentation. I would prefer to fight it out in a liberal framework, in
hopes that in the long run humane goals could be achieved. It is
unsatisfactory, but it is less unsatisfactory than a dictatorship.
> Cole:
> >This is the process of "demanding rights" (why shouldn't they?) that you
> >condemn.
>
> Quanta: I condemn nothing. Just to be wise and use your resources in
fighting > the right causes for the right reasons and think in long-term
> process.
But you produced a long litany condemning the claims of various groups to
rights. I approve of their claims to rights. I think they should claim
their rights, and they should organize to achieve them through
legislation, which inevitably involves arguing against those who would
deny those rights. Who is it that has chosen short-term useless goals
over long-term valuable ones, exactly? Why do you get to dictate to
people what goals they should value?
> >Cole I see these processes as good and healthy. In the US, they have
produced
> >the most stable large society in the world, which still has the same
> >constitution after more than 200 years.
>
> Quanta: SORRY! WRONG AGAIN! This is the most controlled society of them
all.
> It is so insidious that people are sleeping in their couches while munching
> on poisons paid by their own hard earned dollars that they no longer
> know if they are free or not. I can write a book load about this one.
So you say. Why should we listen to you, especially if we do not feel
oppressed and rather enjoy our Pringles? Is your sense of
dissatisfaction sufficient reason for us to surrender our hard won
liberties? For what alternative? Can you point to any society or system
in the world that you think is better than the US? (I once would have
said Sweden, but they have swung Right). As for being oppressed and not
knowing it, surely that is a more fair characterization of Khomeinist
Iran than of the US?
> >Cole: for more social justice for the working class
>
> Quanta: Yes! so what are doing about this one?? Nothing! because everyone
> likes to get their goodies for the cheapest price. Damn the workers,
> huh?
Now, now, this kind of posturing will get no one anywhere. I advocate
workers' rights and a fairer shake for them in my writing and teaching,
which is what I can do where I am. What do you do for workers? Anything
really effective? What I do know is that abolishing their political
rights on the grounds that these benefit only the bourgeoisie is simply a
way of enslaving them, as the Soviet Union and China surely demonstrate.
cheers Juan
>
>
> ****************************************
> Random connections cause great creations.
> ****************************************
> (919) 666-9999 U.S.A.
> Call! if you dare
>
>
>
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 12:46:12 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: RE: Agreeing with the House
Nima jAn:
If that is the case, how should I interpret the following:
"He is the Interpreter of the Word of God and after him will succeed the
first-born of his lineal descendents."
Will and Testament of Abdu'l-Baha
"For he is, after Abdu'l-Baha, the Guardian of the Cause of God, the Afnan,
the Hands (pillars) of the Cause and the beloved of the Lord must obey him
and turn unto him. He
that obeyeth him not, hath not obeyed God; he that turneth away from him,
hath turned away from God and he that denieth him, hath denied the True One.
Beware lest anyone falsely interpret these words, and like unto them that
have broken the Covenant after the Day of Ascension (of Baha'u'llah) advance
a pretext, raise the standard of revolt, wax stubborn and open wide the door
of false interpretation. To none is given the right to put forth his own
opinion or express his particular conviction. All must seek guidance and
turn unto the Center of the Cause and the House of Justice. And he that
turneth unto whatsoever else is indeed in grievous error."
Will and Testament of Abdu'l-Baha
There is more, but for the sake of this conersation this is sufficient.
Arsalan
Nima Wrote:>
>> He is the sole authorized Interpreter of the Sacred Text.
>
>Arsalan jan, Hazrate vali-i aziz-i amr'ullah, Shoghi Effendi,
>is not authorized to be a mubayyin; he is technically *not* an
>Interpretor, and is not authorized to be such in the Will and Testament
>of `Abdu'l-Baha either, let alone being the sole one. _Only_ `Abdu'l-Baha as
>the markaz-i ahd va misaq-i amr-i illahi (Centre of the Covenant)
>functions in the capacity of Interpretor.
>
>Regards,
>Nima
>
>**************************************************************
>* Paradox is a characteristic of truth. What communis opinio *
>* has of truth is surely no more than an elementary deposit *
>* of generalizing partial understanding, related to truth *
>* even as sulphurous fumes are to lightning. *
>* *
>* --From the correspondence of Count Paul von Wartenburg *
>* and Wilhelm Dilthey *
>**************************************************************
>
>
>
Arsalan J. Sadighi
"Things are never quite as scary when you've got a best friend."
Calvin and Hobbes
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 13:01:33 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: Re: Laws of Kitab-i Aqdas
Dear Ahang:
You are correct, but the laws are not meant to kill initiative either. I
know for a fact that all the senior Institutions of the Faith are longing
for individual initiatives. The idea has to start somewhere. Its
implementation and passing through the actual necessary hurdles is
altogether another subject.
I believe that we must assume that everyone has the best of motives and will
follow the requirement to the letter of the law, unless or until it has been
proven otherwise.
This is a very serious issue. There is nothing worse than showering a
budding idea with cold water of 'prerequisites' and formalities. At this
time I believe the whole Baha'i community must have a paradigm shift with
regrards to individual initiatives. Loving encouragement, sincere and full
support is what is needed at this time. The Adminstrative Order has built
into it the ability to make the necessary corrections and individuals who
take a risk to come forward with an idea, no matter how unworthy, should not
be burdened with formalities.
I still believe that respect for individual and freedom to make
contrubutions, in any form, to the Cause they love, is absolutely essential.
Arsalan
>[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
>
>
>The *timing* of implementation of the laws of Aqdas is
>prerogative of the Universal House of Justice which has the
>obligation to inform the community when a particular law must be
>observed by the community (or a subset thereof). These laws fall
>in several categories:
>
>1. Laws which presently the Western believers are exempt from
>observance, such as, daily repetition of the Greatest Name, 95
>times. These are mostly devotional in character and while per
>se, there is no harm in observing them, at the present time there
>is no obligation to do so either. (Incidentally, these laws are
>binding on the Persian believers residing in the West, even if
>they were born outside of Iran.)
>
>2. Laws that are not universally applied. (The word applied is
>the correct term in this context). These laws, for most part,
>are in conflict with present civil laws, e.g. punishment for
>murder, theft, arson, etc.
>
>3. Laws which require specific authorization from the Head of
>the Faith for *each* implementation. Such as, formation of new
>Local Spiritual Assemblies (authorization is delegated by the
>Head of the Faith to NSAs), formation of new National Assemblies,
>construction of Houses of Worship, publication of (previously
>unpublished) Texts, etc.
>
>
>I know of no legislations from the Universal House of Justice
>which would permit constructions of Houses of Worship *without*
>specific prior authorization from the World Centre.
>
>Now, if the friends wish to build Baha'i Centers (which
>authorization is delegated to NSAs) and call it a place of
>worship, or some other name, I don't see any problem. But I
>don't believe they may call such places Houses of Worship a la
>Kitab-i Aqdas.
>
>If the friends in Omaha or any other community insist on building
>a *Mashriqu'l-Adhkar* without prior approval of the Universal
>House of Justice, based on my understanding, they are in clear
>violation of the Covenant.
>
>
>regards, ahang.
>
>
Arsalan J. Sadighi
"Things are never quite as scary when you've got a best friend."
Calvin and Hobbes
=END=
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 11:22:17 +1300 (NZDT)
To: "Dan Orey" , talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: blue suede and blind..
At 11:42 AM 16/2/96, Dan Orey wrote:
>Sorry, most gay people of taste at least, would never stand on (or for) blue
>suede. Its very how shall I say, passe. Please .... its either ruby slippers,
>or patent leather for us.
It is not for me to dispute with Captain Dan Orey on matters of gay
fashion, but am amused at the colonisation of my late father's hetero
weltanschauung...
Who was it who sang [something like] "do anything you want but stay off of
my blue suede shoes"? Wasn't Elvis was it?
(Come to think it the Las Vegas Elvis was Liberace-like in dress...)
(Positivists see everything in terms of the scientific, postmodernists see
everything in terms of the fictional, metaphysicians see everything in
terms of metaphysics, and gays see everything in terms of gayness... And
me? Who knows!)
My original point was this: though a wide variety of apparently diverse
groups (including Baha'is) eschew the use of avenging fury against apparent
evil there comes a time when one has to put one's foot down. So to speak...
Thus Baha'is aren't pacifists...
..strutting in blue,
Robert
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 23:33:03 +0100 (MET)
Subject: reposting - Guardian as interpreter
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Shoghi Effendi as interpreter
This has been discussed here before. Below is a selection of posting
from that time which contains some useful references for the present
discussion. Old hands hit DELETE - nothing new to report
-------------------------------------------------------------
The key text is from the Will and Testament of 'Abdu'l-Baha:
O my loving friends! After the passing away of this
wronged one, it is incumbent upon the Aghsan...to turn
unto Shoghi Effendi...as he is the sign of God, the
chosen branch, the Guardian of the Cause of God,...the
expounder of the words of God"
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
at least, that is the version on p 11 in the 1968 edition of the
Will and Testament, published by the NSA of the USA and
Canada, 1944, "from text received [from Shoghi Effendi]
February 25 1922," but copyrighted 1944 (a small booklet
format).
But in the version available as e-text from the world centre
and in the REFER programme we find:
"O my loving friends! After the passing away of this
wronged one, it is incumbent upon the &Aghsan ... to
turn unto Shoghi Effendi ... as he is the sign of God,
the chosen branch, the Guardian of the Cause of God,
... the Interpreter of the Word of God "
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Which is the same as Shoghi Effendi's other translation of this
passage:
"He is the Interpreter of the Word of God," Abdu'l-Baha,
referring to the functions of the Guardian of the Faith,
asserts, using in His Will the very term which He Himself
had chosen when refuting the argument of the
Covenant-breakers who had challenged His right to
interpret the utterances of Baha'u'llah. (World Order of
Baha'u'llah, pages 148-149)
My guess is that an editor has decided to incorporate Shoghi
Effendi's later translation back into the 1922 translation. It could
also be that the NSA inserted the 'expounder' in their first
edition, and it has now been removed, but it seems unlikely.
Thus I agree that there is a difference in English between the
terms, and will bow to Bijan's knowledge when he says that
there is a difference between "Mubayyin" (Expounder) and
"Mufassir" (Interpreter), but I doubt that our translations are
sytematic enough to draw any conclusions based on English
texts. Perhaps one could disregard early texts from Shoghi
Effendi which use these terms, on the grounds that he became
aware of the distinction between them only later. Equally,
perhaps when he was writing the World Order letters he
translated that short phrase from memory, and remembered the
original incorrectly. I think that editors have no right to tidy
it up - it should be left as Shoghi Effendi translated it on both
occassions.
[deleted long compaint about standard of textual hygiene in
Baha'i publications, silent editorial amendments, general
degeneracy of the younger generation etc.]
------------------------------------------------------
(from an earlier post)
... So I have checked this one out carefully using the sources I
have available. Thus far, I must say that it doesn't fly at all (as
Orville said). First of all, 'Abdu'l-Baha is also the Expounder:
"... what appear to us to be the guiding principles
underlying the World Order of Baha'u'llah, as amplified
and enunciated by Abdu'l-Baha, the Center of His
Covenant with all mankind and the appointed Interpreter
and Expounder of His Word. (World Order of Baha'u'llah,
page 35; the same term is used again at page 37; see also
Baha'i Administration, page 191 or Bahiyyih Khanum,
pages 36-37; God Passes By, page 325;
Second, [reference to Will & Testament, see above]
Third, although Shoghi Effendi himself clearly thought he was
the Interpreter, this did not mean that he was 'the Interpeter' in
the same sense (or in the same station) as 'Abdu'l-Baha:
The fact that the Guardian has been specifically endowed
with such power as he may need to reveal the purport and
disclose the implications of the utterances of Baha'u'llah
and of Abdu'l-Baha does not necessarily confer upon him
a station co-equal with those Whose words he is called
upon to *interpret*. He can exercise that right and
discharge this obligation and yet remain infinitely inferior
to both of them in rank and different in nature. (World
Order of Baha'u'llah, page 151)
So while there probably is a distinction between their
interpretations, I don't see that the use of the words Interpreter or
Expounder in a particular text gives us any clues at all. The
meanings are not quite the same, but clearly both 'Abdu'l-Baha
and Shoghi Effendi are authorised interpreters and expounders.
For your convenience, a very brief list of references follows [...]
"the right of interpretation with which He has invested its
Guardian" (God Passes By, page 326)
"The hereditary authority which the Guardian of the
Administrative Order is called upon to exercise, and the right of
the interpretation of the Holy Writ solely conferred upon him.."
(God Passes By, pages 326-327)
"it is made indubitably clear and evident that the Guardian of the
Faith has been made the Interpreter of the Word ... The
interpretation of the Guardian, functioning within his own sphere,
is as authoritative and binding as the enactments of the
International House of Justice, "
(World Order of Baha'u'llah, pages 149-150)
"the Guardian of the Faith ... interprets what has been specifically
revealed.. (World Order of Baha'u'llah, page 150)
and from a secretary:
He is the Guardian of the Cause in the very fullness of that
term, and the appointed interpreter of its teachings...
(Letters to Aust. and New Zealand, page 55)
"The infallibility of the Guardian is confined to matters
which are related strictly to the Cause and interpretation of the
teachings...
(Directives of the Guardian, pages 33-34)
see also - Bahiyyih Khanum, pages 146-147; 153-154; 159;
160-161
---------------------------------------------
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 23:31:56 +0100 (MET)
Subject: Baha'i centres/house of worship
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Thanks to Alex for his long posting on Baha'i centres. I agree
with much of what he says, but I think the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar is
something quite different. I'll take that one piece at a time:
Baha'i centres:
I've lived in a community which had a centre, and it was a trial
and a burden and a source of unity and the community was
looking like outgrowing it in no time :-D Fortunately the
property's value had quadrupled with all the Tender Loving Care
it was getting (had been rather run-down), and in God's good
time that community will be able to trade it in as the deposit on
something larger.
I know of other communities in which the centre was a little
too much and sapped the energy of the community. About six
months ago the NSA of the UK actually published a letter
discouraging - if not forbidding - the establishment of local
Baha'i centres in the near future, for just this reason.
This is a rather nice calculation: if the community can bear the
burden of a centre, it will be a long-term plus: do it too soon and
it will drag you down.
The House of Worship, on the other hand, is totally different. It's
not even the same KIND of calculation. First of all, the Mashriq
is a mandated institution. Archtypically, it already exists: the
Mashriq - the sacred space - is a life centred on
devotion, and the 'house of worship' at its heart is the moment of
adoration:
In reality, the radiant, pure hearts are the Mashrak-el-Azcar
and from them the voice of supplication and
invocation continually reacheth the Supreme Concourse.
I ask God to make the heart of every one of you a
temple of the Divine Temples and to let the lamp of
the great guidance be lighted therein; and when the
hearts find such an attainment, they will certainly exert
the utmost endeavor and energy in the building of the
Mashrak-el-Azcar; thus may the outward express the
inward, and the form (or letter) indicate the meaning
(or reality). (Tablets of `Abdu'l-Baha Abbas p 678)
You can build that inner reality out through successive levels of
reality -
- to a family which prays together (etc),
- to dawn prayers as a practice,
- to a Baha'i community in which the spiritual meeting, and not
the committee meetings, is where its at
- to the diverse auxiliary activities which fall under the shadow
of the House of worship (charity, education, Baha'i
administration, see Selections from the Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha,
pp. 99-100, Tablets of `Abdu'l-Baha Abbas p 627),
- and to a building. And the 'building' can be a house or a room
dedicated for the purpose (Tablets of `Abdu'l-Baha Abbas p 149;
Promulgation of Universal Peace, page 71; Selections from the
Writings of `Abdu'l-Baha, page 96), even underground according
to one tablet of `Abdu'l-Baha (Selections from the Writings of
`Abdu'l-Baha, page 95), a rented room (Tablets of `Abdu'l-Baha
Abbas p 437) or a purpose-built place. A prayer-nook which is
regularly used is an expression of the archtypical Mashriq,
whereas a Baha'i centre has to be practical, large enough,
economical etc.
Second, because the Mashriq is a mandated institution,
building it - in our heart or in bricks & mortar - has certain
effects:
Nothing short of direct and constant interaction between
the spiritual forces emanating from this House of Worship
centering in the heart of the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar, and the
energies consciously displayed by those who administer
its affairs in their service to humanity can possibly
provide the necessary agency capable of removing the ills
that have so long and so grievously afflicted humanity. ...
(Shoghi Effendi, in Baha'i Administration p. 186)
which sounds like it might be good for the administrative culture.
Furthermore
... the Mashriqu'l-Adhkar ... forgeth bonds of unity
from heart to heart; it is a collective centre for
men's souls. (Selections from the Writings of
`Abdu'l-Baha, p. 95)
and don't our communities need unity? But in the light of the
goals being considered for the next plan, the following effect is
the most significant:
The vision also signifieth that a Mashrak-el-Azcar will
soon be established in America. The cries of supplication
and invocation will be raised to the Highest Kingdom
therefrom and, verily, the people will enter into the
religion of God by troops with great enthusiasm and
attraction. (Tablets of `Abdu'l-Baha Abbas p. 681)
So far as I know, there are no scriptural passages which suggest
that the building of a Baha'i centre will lead to entry by troops.
Of course building or obtaining a Baha'i centre could be a stage
in the development of a physical Mashriq, if there is a
living devotional life in the community and the centre provides a
place for it to develop further. The Baha'i centre can also be a
place for the embryonic development of the Haziratu'l-Quds, a
meeting-place for the appointed arm, the first classroom of the
school and a practice-place for the dance troop. None of these
need a Baha'i centre, and the question of whether to go down
that path is primarily a practical one.
The third thing about the Mashriq - at any level from
individual adoration expressed in devotion-in-life up to a
cathedral-type building like Wilmette, is that it is a source of
energy, of radiating light etc. You may recall that when the letter
of the Universal House of Justice outlining discussions about the
coming 3-year plan was posted here, I responded with a post
saying that I found it very disappointed (I sent a cc. to the
Universal House of Justice). As someone here commented
(approximately), 'If you keep doing what you've been doing you'll
keep getting what you've been getting'. The community in the
West has suffered for years under a policy of doing more of the
same, but harder, and we have hit the phenomenon of
diminishing returns in a big way. There's no escaping the dismal
science. You cannot continually ask the friends for yet more and
more and more, without spending some time investing in the
energy resources which are required for any real acceleration.
Sen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-3216854
Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
and the individuality of each,
thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 23:31:08 +0100 (MET)
Subject: appointed arm
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Re: appointed arm
My experience with the 'Learned' is rather more positive than
Tony's. I think some of the problem is that the name 'Learned'
raises the wrong expectations, and 'appointed' is perhaps a better
term. The counsellors seem to be selected mainly for experience
in the community and inter-personal skills. Some are
academically or professionally qualified, but I haven't personally
encountered any who are learned in the faith (using 'learned' in a
rather narrow sense), and this seems a general pattern in other
parts of the world.
But I don't think that this shows that the wrong people are
being selected, just that the role of the appointed is NOT to be
sources of knowledge. I won't engage in invidious personal
comparisons, but you can make a mental list of the 50 or so
people who are the most capable scholars of the Faith (think of
who gets published in journals, theses on the Faith, authors etc.).
How many of the appointed branch there? Not many I guess.
Also not many NSA members I think (though 2 exceptions, in 2
different countries, come to mind). For obvious reasons there is
normally no overlap between NSA membership and the
appointed. So it looks like 3 distinct corps of people, with
different talents and functions, different interests to some extent,
and little shared 'membership'. 60 years ago I think there would
have been a great deal of overlap, which suggests that these
organs are gradually becoming differentiated (developing in
accordance with their own natures) in the same was as the cells
of the zygote of a few days gradually differentiate to form the
kernals of separate organs.
There is a building on the arc for the study of the sacred texts,
beside the House of Justice and facing the International Teaching
Centre (seat of the appointed arm). I find this rather suggestive.
A whole section of the letter from the Universal House of Justice
to the National Spiritual Assembly of the United States is
devoted to the relationship between elected and appointed arms.
Talismaniacs might find it fruitful to go through that section
thinking about where this relationship might be analogous to the
relationship between scholars and the appointed, and scholars and
the elected arm. Some snippets for your consideration:
... how you might strengthen this relationship. A beginning ... would
be for you to obtain an integrated understanding of the Counselors'
responsibilities and sphere of action in relation to your own.
The Continental Boards of Counselors and the National Spiritual
Assemblies share in the functions of propagation and protection, but
the Counselors specialize in these functions from a different level and
in a different manner. ... These functions are shaped by their
obligations, in the words of the Will and Testament, "to diffuse the
Divine Fragrances, to edify the souls of men, to promote learning, to
improve the character of all men and to be, at all times and under all
conditions, sanctified and detached from earthly things." ...
... the Assembly should recognize that the Counselors must be free to
determine, according to their own best judgment, in what manner that
support will be given. ... Such a flexibility on the part of the Auxiliary
Board member in dealing with immediate situations, such a freedom
for independent action, should be taken for granted by all concerned.
However, a pattern of activity on the part of the Auxiliary Board
member, or even of a Counselor, which appears to the National
Assembly to be seriously diverting attention from the adopted plans of
the community should unhesitatingly be made a matter for remedial
consultation ...
... the National Assembly must, on the basis of principle and in its
own best interest, ensure that Counselors and Auxiliary Board members
are not hampered in carrying out their sacred responsibilities and that
their right and freedom to function are upheld. The attitude of these
two institutions toward each other should be motivated not merely by a
legalistic application of the rules of their functional relationship. Far
more is required, for they must, in the first place, approach their joint
responsibilities within the framework of the spiritual requisites for all
successful Baha'i relationships. Where love, respect and courtesy are
genuinely and mutually expressed, estrangement finds no
accommodation and problems become soluble challenges. ...
Once again, rather suggestive I think.
Sen
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sen McGlinn ph: 31-43-3216854
Andre Severinweg 47 email: Sen.McGlinn@RL.RuLimburg.NL
6214 PL Maastricht, the Netherlands
***
When, however, thou dost contemplate the innermost essence of things,
and the individuality of each,
thou wilt behold the signs of thy Lord's mercy . . ."
------------------------------------------------------------------------
=END=
From: Sen.Mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 23:22:42 +0100 (MET)
Subject: BF and the arts - from Sonja
To: bahai-discuss@bcca.org, talisman@indiana.edu
Some time ago I was asked to write a Bahai view on the
arts and this is what I came up with. I would appreciate
any comments, criticism or more information, views or
quotations on this subject.
------------------------------------------------------
A perspective on the Bahai Faith and the arts
by Sonja van Kerkhoff, The Netherlands.
--------------------
Andre Severinweg 47, 6214 PL, Maaastricht, The
Netherlands, email: sen.mcglinn@rl.rulimburg.nl
--------------------
There are as yet few signs within the global Bahai
community of distinctive Bahai art forms, but we can
identify at least three elements in the Bahai Writings which
are likely to influence the development of a distinctly
Bahai attitude to the arts:
the inclusiveness of the term 'art' in the Writings,
a new theology of creation, and a more positive approach
to the value and dignity of the physical world.
The mere fact that there are numerous mentions of the
value of art in the Bahai scriptures is also a distinctive
feature.
Inclusiveness of the term 'art'
In the Baha'i Writings, the words that have been translated
as 'art' are usually the Arabic words san'at and fan, and
occasionally the Persian word hunar. In the time of
Bah'u'llah and 'Abdu'l-Baha, all three of these terms had the
very general sense of a transmitted skill or craft. San'at
and fan are translated in some passages as 'art', and in
others as 'craft' or as 'skill'. 1 The English language
references to the arts usually include the word craft as well
and are written to have a very broad and inclusive meaning
referring to the artists as those skilled.
"Arts, crafts and sciences uplift the world of being...Its
acquisition is incumbent upon everyone" 2
Creativity is a universal human attribute, but the manner in
which it finds expression is dependent on the capacities and
preferences of each individual. 'Abdu'l-Bah is reported to
have said: "When this light shines through the mind of a
musician, it manifests itself in beautiful harmonies. Again,
shining through the mind of a poet, it is seen in fine poetry
and poetic prose. When the Light of the Sun of Truth
inspires the mind of a painter, he produces marvellous
pictures." 3
It should be noted that, while inspiration plays its part, this
is not a theory of passive inspiration - the Holy Spirit
provides us not with finished works of art but rather with
an analytic capacity:
"By the power of the Holy Spirit, working through his soul,
man is able to perceive the Divine reality of things. All
great works of art and science are witnesses to this power
of the Spirit." 4
Creation
That the artist is in some sense reiterating the creativity of
God has also been perceived in other religious traditions,
but in the Bahai Writings God's creativity is seen somewhat
differently. Creation is perceived not only as an act of will
which God does at some time, but also as an essential
attribute of God, part of God's being.
Creation is therefore continual, implying not only ongoing
physical creativity but also the creation of new essences or
ideas - in other words 'the creation' is not a fixed
environment within which we live but an ever-expanding
world in both physical and intellectual senses. "All the
wondrous works ye behold in this world have been
manifested through the operation of His supreme and most
exalted Will, His wondrous and inflexible Purpose.
Through the mere revelation of the word "Fashioner",
issuing forth from His lips and proclaiming His attribute to
mankind, such power is released as can generate, through
successive ages, all the manifold arts which the hands of
man can produce....No sooner is this resplendent word
uttered, than its animating energies, stirring within all
created things, give birth to the means and instruments
whereby such arts can be produced and perfected. All the
wondrous achievements ye now witness are the direct
consequences of the Revelation of this Name. In the days
to come, ye will, verily, behold things of which ye have
never heard before." 5
Humans are endowed with the unique potential of being
able to manifest all of the attributes of God, although in a
form and degree appropriate to our contingent natures.
Since creativity is seen in the Bahai Writings not just as an
act but also as an attribute of God, humans, and most
particularly believers in God, are called on to develop their
creative capacities, just as they are also called on to
become good and just, and to acquire knowledge. 6
Although there is generally an emphasis on the creative
process itself in the Writings, the process is intended to end
in a result, and in particular, those arts which benefit
humanity are seen as particularly praiseworthy.
"At the outset of every endeavour it is incumbent to look at
the end of it. Of all the arts and sciences, set the children
to studying those which will result in advantage to" 7
humanity.
It is up to the artist to be moderate (8) in the same way
that every Bahai is to be moderate in their conduct, but of
course, what this means in terms of artistic expression is
dependent on the context and is in part a question of
culture. 9
The physical world
The dualism between the physical and spiritual worlds, and
the physical and spiritual natures in human beings, which
has been a feature of many previous religions is absent in
the Bahai Writings. The physical world is intended for our
education and enjoyment, provided that we do not allow it
to intervene between ourselves and God. "(F)or God hath
ordained every good thing, whether created in the heavens
or in the earth,...deprive not yourselves from His wondrous
bounties." 10
That Bah'u'llah has specifically included the fruits of human
creativity in the bounties which we are urged to enjoy may
prove to be very important in the development of a
distinctive Bahai approach to art. Bah'u'llah also said that
'monks and priests' should 'give up the life of seclusion and
direct their steps towards the open world and busy
themselves with that which will profit themselves and
others.'11
Although their withdrawal from the world in order to
devote themselves to worshipping God had been
praiseworthy in the past, in the present age such a
withdrawal is no longer acceptable. Thus both spiritual and
physical worlds are seen as having their own dignity, and
the goal is not to subordinate one to the other but rather to
integrate them.
Art and Religion
The artistic enterprise is not subordinated to the religious:
the arts, like science, government and religion, is an order
in human society. Each order manifests one of the attributes
of God and develops and functions according to its own
rules and procedures which are an organic outgrowth from
its central idea.12
The degree of synergy which can be obtained between these
orders is a function of how closely they work together, but
it also requires that each order develops according to the
logic of the attribute of God which it manifests. This
excludes instrumentalist theories of art which would require
it to serve the requirements of the spiritual order, or, as in
the 'social realism school', the political order. But it is
nevertheless true that the arts can contribute a great deal to
the religious and political orders, and that religion provides
the single richest source of symbol and inspiration which
the artist requires to work. The relationships between the
physical and spiritual, and artistic and religious elements of
human nature and human society are complex, and to
achieve the greatest possible harmony and synergy between
them places requires a continual effort. In seeking this
balance and integrity in our own lives, the laws of God,
including those passages which condemn particular
practices or uses of the arts, serve to define some limits:
"We have made music a ladder by which souls may ascend
to the realm on high. Change it not into wings for self and
passion." 13 "O people of Bah! The source of crafts,
sciences and arts is the power of reflection. Make ye every
effort that out of this ideal mine there may gleam forth
such pearls of wisdom and utterance as will promote the
well-being and harmony of all the kindreds of the earth."
14
Because the physical and spiritual worlds are not in
competition, a Bahai aesthetic could not assume that art
which gives more sensual enjoyment is likely to be less
spiritual. On the contrary, since the pleasures and riches of
this world are in their own right acceptable, a work of art
which served no goal higher than physical beauty ("art for
art's sake") should be appreciated for its beauty alone,
although it would not have achieved the full potential of
art: "..In this new century the attainment of science, arts
and belles lettres, whether divine or worldly, material or
spiritual, is a matter which is acceptable before God and a
duty which is incumbent upon us to accomplish...15
In fact much of the decorative art we use in our homes and
clothing, and the aesthetic element in good design, whether
applied to everyday objects or public architecture, is art in
this sense. Those who produce this art are accounted as
worshipping God: "In this universal dispensation man's
wondrous craftmanship is reckoned as worship of the
Resplendent Beauty"16 The Bahai Writings go further to
say that art has the potential to aid our spiritual progress:
"..although music is a material affair, yet its tremendous
effect is spiritual, and its greatest achievement is to the
realm of the spirit."17 "...in this new age the Manifest
Light hath, in His Holy Tablets, specifically proclaimed
that music, sung or played, is spiritual food for soul and
heart." 18 The arts also offer us a medium to express our
spiritual experiences: "Every word of thy poetry is indeed
like unto a mirror in which the evidences of the devotion
and love thou cherishest for God and His chosen ones are
reflected....Its perusal hath truly proved highly impressive,
for it was indicative of both the light of reunion and the
fire of separation."19
The arts, like other forms of work, are a form of worship:
"In this great dispensation, art (or a profession) is identical
with an act of worship and this is a clear text of the
Blessed Perfection. Therefore, extreme effort should be
made in art and this will not prevent the teaching of the
people in that region. Nay, rather, each should assist the
other in art and guidance......in accordance with the Divine
Teachings, the acquisition of sciences and the perfection of
arts are considered as acts of worship. If a man engages
with all his power in the acquisition of a science or in the
perfection of an art, it is as if he has been worshipping God
in the churches and temples." 20
"A painter asked: 'Is art a worthy vocation?' 'Abdu'l-Bah
turning to her impressively, said: 'Art is worship.' " 21
Laws and Limitations
There are some specific limitations mentioned in the Bahai
Writings which are applicable to the arts. Many of these
relate to the whole community's maintaining a proper
relationship to God and the Manifestation, and involve the
arts and artists incidentally. For instance, there is a
requirement that pictures of Bah'u'llah should not be hung
in the House of Worship, 22 that the Manifestations of God
should not be represented in works of art, 23 (although the
authentic images of the Bab and Bah'u'llah which we
already have are valued). 24 Similarly 'Abdu'l-Baha
discouraged the Bahais from making free use of his own
portrait, 25 although this teaching is widely ignored. Other
limitations seem to be directed to maintaining the dignity
or universality of Bahai institutions, and again involve the
artist incidentally. For instance, dancing is not permitted in
the Hazirat'ul-Quds, 26 and musical accompaniment may
not be used in the Mashriqu'l-Adhkr. 27
In the case of drama: "The Faith can be dramatized, but
two things must be remembered; no personal presentation
of the Bab, Bah'u'llah, or the Master, only their words can
be used, but no figure must represent Them; great dignity
must the keynote." 28 and in the case of writing:
"...regarding the fictionalization of historical
personalities...The basic point is to avoid representing the
Manifestation of God, or 'Abdu'l-Baha, in a work of fiction,
but beyond that it is largely a matter of taste, moderation
and reverence." 29
In the Bahai Writings in general our understanding of
things comes from seeing how the combination of the
various Bahai principles provide enlightenment on a
particualr issue rather than having one particular rule or
principle. The specific references to the arts are also shaped
by other referencs such as the principles of moderation,
serving humanity, the equality of humanity, and so on. In
many instances it is up to the individual to make her or his
own interpretation. 30
The potential of specific art forms
Music is in particular singled out as a means by which the
singer and the audience are lifted closer to God: "Music is
an important means to the education and development of
humanity..." 31
Drama: " It has been a great educational force in the past;it
will be so again." 32 "..the Cause will spread like wildfire
when its spirit and teachings are presented on the stage or
in art and literature as a whole. Art can better awaken such
noble sentiments than cold rationalizing, especially among
the mass of people." 33
Bahai art
It is not to be expected, however, that the civilization and
arts which a Manifestation inaugurates will flower
instantly. We observe in the history of other religions that
the process takes some centuries. There was very little
Christian Art in the early second century. The greatest
symbol of all, the cross, was not yet discovered, and it was
only to the eyes of the believers that the power and wonder
of the spiritual reality to which these symbols pointed was
evident.
A similar delay is to be expected in the development of the
arts which will accompany the Bahai civilization. When we
talk of 'Bahai Arts', we talk mainly about the future: "He
sincerely hopes that as the Cause grows and talented
persons come under its banner, they will begin to produce
in art the divine spirit that animates their soul. Every
religion has brought with it some form of art ... The
Temple with all its beauty is only the first ray of an early
dawn; even more wondrous things are to be achieved in the
future." 34
If we look more specifically at the forms which arts have
taken, and will take in future in the Bahai community, we
have to bear in mind that we are looking at a world
religion, and not at a church. In fact, if we look for the
universal forms of the art of a world religion, we do not
find them. What unifies Christian art is not any common
artistic characteristic, it is the Christian spirit, the genius
released into the world by Christ which finds expression in
innumerable different forms. 35 This is true also for the
Bahai Faith: " Music, as one of the arts, is a natural
cultural development, and the Guardian does not feel that
there should be any cultivation of "Bahai Music" any more
than we are trying to develop a Bahai school of painting or
writings. The believers are free to paint, write, and
compose as their talents guide them. If music is written,
incorporating the sacred writings, the friends are free to
make use of it, but it should never be considered a
requirement at Bahai meetings to have such music. The
further away the friends keep from any set forms, the
better, for they must realize that the cause is absolutely
universal, and what might seem a beautiful addition to their
mode of celebrating a Feast, etc., would perhaps fall on the
ears of people of another country as unpleasant sounds -
and vice versa. As long as they have music for its own sake
it is all right, but they should not consider it Bahai music."
36
Young as the Bahai Faith is, it has already become
trans-cultural: finding its forms in hundreds of different
cultures around the world. One can find some repeated
symbols such as the circle and nine-pointed star, and the
stories of some principle figures, such as Tahirih and
Quddus, used in dance, music, and literature. We cannot
point to a 'Bahai art', although there are artforms dealing
with Bahai subject matter being made by Bahais.
The arts and the Bahai community
Informal networks of artists provided one of the channels
through which the Bahai Faith spread in the West in the
last decades of the 19th century and the first decades of this
century. In recent years there has been a more systematic
encouragement of the arts in Bahai communities. In 1985
the UHJ wrote a letter asking all NSAs to consider
"encouraging Bahai artists and musicians to contribute, . . .
to the effectiveness of Bahai activities by giving expression
through the various arts to important themes relating to
world peace." 37 This was followed in 1991 by another
letter stating that "All suitable and available creative
resources . . . should be called to the aid of the community.
38 In many countries there are national arts organizations
and there are also some international arts organizations such
as the Bahai Association For Arts 39 and the Bahai
Institute for Arts. 40 Some national and international Bahai
institutes have run conferences on the arts 41.
Some Bahais whose art has received national or world wide
attention are: the Iranian calligraphist Mishkin Qalam, the
British potter Bernard Leach, the American Abstract painter
Mark Tobey, the African American jazz trumpeter Dizzy
Gillespie, the American duo Seals and Crofts, the African
American poet Robert Hayden, and the South African
painter Reginald Turvey. The Canadian poet, Roger White
is known throughout the Bahai world for his support and
encouragement of Bahais involved in the arts and for his
fine portrait - poems.
Architecture and designers of urban design have a
prominent role in the Bahai world community at the
moment because of the distinctive Bahai buildings and
gardens that have been completed. The 5 Mashriqu'l-Adhkr
around the world have their own characteristics 42 but all
are nine sided, combine the influence of various styles or
cultures, and are built with the idea that they will expand
into centres of learning, health, and social life as well as
being centres for devotion. In short that they are buildings
which are intended to form an organic part of the Bahai
community. 43
The design of buildings at the Bahai world centre in Haifa
was influenced by Shoghi Effendi's taste. "His choice of the
classical style for the structures on Mount Carmel was,
according to Amatu'l-Bah Rhiyyih Khnum, on the grounds
that it was both beautiful and befitted the area, and that it
had withstood the test of time." 44 Within these particular
buildings there are influences from many other styles and
cultures as well.
The development of the arts is a cumulative social process,
and depends largely on the place which the arts are given
in the life of society. Creativity and art is both a cause of,
and a result of, individual spiritual growth.
NOTES:
1 Mirror of the Divine, Ludwig Tuman, p. 28.
2 Bah'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 26.
3 Bloomfield, The Chosen Highway, p. 167.
4 'Abdu'l-Baha, Paris Talks, p. 85.
5 Bah'u'llah, Gleanings, p. 141-2.
6 Bah'u'llah, Gleanings, p. 290, Epistle to the Son of the
Wolf, p. 26.
7 Tablets of Bah'u'llah, p. 168-9.
8 Shoghi Effendi, Advent of Divine Justice, p. 25. Tablets
of Bah'u'llah p. 169, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 19.
9 Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Bah'u'llh, p. 41-2.
10 Bah'u'llh, Gleanings , p. 276.
11 Tablets of Bah'u'llh, p. 24.
12 See Pentti Malaska, 'Threefold Harmony and Societal
Transformation', in Transition to a Global Society. pp
43-51, for a less theological form of this argument.
13 Bah'u'llah, Kitb-i-Aqdas, p. 31.
14 Tablets of Bah'u'llah (Kalimat-i-Firdawyyih), p. 72.
15 'Abdu'l-Baha, in Baha World Faith, p. 377.
16 Selections from the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Bah, p. 145.
17'Abdu'l-Baha, in Bahai Writings on music, p. 7, cited in
Tuman p. 83.
18 Selections from the Writings of 'Abdu'l-Baha , p. 112.
19 Bah'u'llah, in Tablets of Bah'u'llah (Lawh-i-Maqsd), pp.
175-6.
20 Abdu'l-Bah, Bahai World Faith, pp. 377-378.
21 'Abdu'l-Baha reported in 'Abdu'l-Bah in London, p. 93.
22 Tablets of 'Abdu'l-Bah, p. 337.
23 Letter written on behalf of the Guardian, 27.1.35, cited
in Lights of Guidence, p. 167 (1983 edition).
24 Lights of Guidance, p. 351.
25 Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 357.
26 Letter from Shoghi Effendi to NSA of South America,
15.2.47, cited in Lights of Guidance, p. 215.
27 Letter from Shoghi Effendi to NSA of USA, 11.4.47,
cited in Lights of Guidence, p. 489.
28 Letter on behalf of Shoghi Effendi, 1951, quoted in
Bahai News, March 1952, cited in Lights of Guidence, p.
167.
29 Letter to an individual, Universal House of Justice,
31.12.91.
30 Shoghi Effendi, Advent of Divine Justice, p.30.
31'Abdu'l-Baha, Bahai Writing on Music, p. 8, cited in
Tuman, p.47.
32 'Abdu'l-Baha, 'Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 93.
33 Letter from Shoghi Effendi to an individual, quoted in
Bahai News, 1933.
34 Letter on behalf of Shoghi Effendi dated 11.12.31 to
Mrs. Nina Matthison (from her files).
35 Sen McGlinn, Some thoughts on the Bahai Faith and the
arts, Bahai Association For the Arts newsletter 18, Dec.
1991, p. 11-12.
36 Shoghi Effendi, Bahai Writings on Music, p. 12.
37 Letter of 23 January 1985, cited in Tuman, p. 25.
38 Letter of April 3 1991 to all NSAs, cited in Tuman, p.
26.
39 Began in 1986 & runs the quarterly ARTS DIALOGUE
that circulates in over 40 countries & a global database of
artists.
40 Is associated with the Canadian Association for Bahai
studies and printed a global directory of artists in 1989.
41 Such as the East, West and Central African music
festivals organized by the Continental Counsellors in 1989,
the 2nd International Arts conference in Guyana in 1992,
and Landegg's yearly Symposium on Music in Switzerland.
42 'The design of each Temple will be developed by the
architect selected in relation to the climate, environment
and culture of the area where it is to be built.' UHJ letter,
printed in Bahai News, 1974. Cited in Tuman, p. 286.
43 Shoghi Effendi, Bahai Administration, pp. 185-6.
44 An unpublished letter of 23.6.85, from the UHJ to an
individual, cited in Tuman, p. 207-8.
-----------------------
SUBSCRIBE to ARTS DIALOGUE = $20 for 4 issues.
Email me for details
-----------------------
Sonja van Kerkhoff, email: sen.mcglinn@rl@rulimburg.nl
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 17:54:16 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand
To: "Arsalan J. Sadighi"
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu, Mark_Insteness@dot.state.ak.us,
70662.2417@compuserve.com, 71151.2720@compuserve.com,
DPMoore@ptialaska.net, sadighih@jsd.k12.ak.us, trickfam@ptialaska.net
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal
Dear Arsalan, i think this is a wonderful idea. I would love to
participate in a deepening on the Hidden Words. Let me know when we are
starting.
Regards,
cheshmak
=END=
Date: Thu, 15 Feb 96 14:12:00 EST
From: Richard Harmsen
To:
Subject: re: Centers of Worship/masses
Dear friends:
I don't doubt that Houses of Worship will transform our teaching
efforts, but as a member of a small group and former member of
local assemblies, I know to build a house of worship properly
would require great sacrifice. Have you read the latest letter of
the House of Justice appearing on the front page of the American
Baha'i. It's all about teaching the masses and makes no mention of
building houses of worship at this time. I have to conclude that now
is not the time. As always, IMHO- not always H. Just a thought.
Rick Harmsen, Big Rapids, MI
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 17:42:24 EST
Subject: random connections
Some very sweet kind person indicated with humour that
random connections cause great creations "babies".
Yes! I love to have more babies *grand babies* that is.
However, these random cyber connections caused great friendships too.
Especially the kind that Juan and Quanta is having on the
intellectual wrestling ring, today. I call it common-sense.
love,
quanta
****************************************
Random connections cause great creations.
****************************************
(919) 666-9999 U.S.A.
Call! if you dare
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 14:51:51 -0800
To: margreet@margreet.seanet.com, CaryER_ms@msn.com, burlb@bmi.net
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: RE: Revenge of the Daughters
Just talked to sacred daughter Helen, who has already been on contact with
other sacred daugter Anea and they will both be there. We adults won't stand
a chance!
----------------------------- Begin Original Text
-----------------------------
I will behave, I promise...
Margreet
----------------------------- End Original Text -----------------------------
=END=
From: Rick Schaut
To: "Talisman@indiana.edu"
Subject: RE: Agreeing with the House
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 13:48:01 -0800
Dearest Talizens,
Another emerging Talisman pattern:
1) Someone expresses an opinion about a decision of
an institution of the Faith, either real or hypothetical, using
less than reverent terms.
2) Someone else points out that the way in which the
above opinion was stated seems to fall a bit short of the
mature use of the power of utterance to which Baha'u'llah,
`Abdu'l-Baha, Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of
Justice has insistently urged us.
3) A third party immediately launches into a diatribe
about free speech despite the fact that not a single
person has rushed off to any institution or has threatened
anyone in any way.
Now, if the party of the second part has done nothing
more than express an opinion about the way that the
party of the first part expressed an opinion, how does the
party of the third part get into such a tizzy about free
speech? Just whose freedom of speech is being
stomped, here?
Save the rightous indignation for when it really counts,
and let _everyone_ have the freedom to express their
opinions even if that opinion has to do with the manner
in which some others have exercised their freedom to
express themselves.
To phrase that slightly differently, we all have a
constitutionally protected right to say something stupid.
This does, however, mean that others have an equally
protected right to point out the stupidity of what we say.
Warmest Regards,
Rick Schaut
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 15:11:56 -0800
To: margreet@margreet.seanet.com, CaryER_ms@msn.com, burlb@bmi.net
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Revenge of the Daughters, part 2
Dear all,
Just talked to my own daughter Helen (she's the one with the buzz cut,
uncountable pierces and a large flame tattoo ringing her whole lower leg--but
a serious, studious and sweet girl nonetheless). She has *already talked* at
length to the other daughter Anea and they will both be there. The adults
won't stand a chance!
Did I hear you offer to baby-sit, Margreet?
And Derek, is it true that Ahmad has just booked his flight, hoping that Ayla
will be there too, just to make the "Chase Ahmad Through the Redwoods"
Special Mystical Event more interesting?
Sandy
----------------------------- Begin Original Text
-----------------------------
I will behave, I promise...
Margreet
----------------------------- End Original Text -----------------------------
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 17:47:32 -0500
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
From: Alex Tavangar
Subject: Re: 19 Houses of Worship by 2006
Dear All:
I have enjoyed the discussion on this topic and appreciated everyone's
observations and thoughts. As this thread is coming to an end I would like
to offer some of my thoughts on one of Juan's postings on this issue.
> Does the Philadelphia Baha'i Center have weekly meetings for
>worship that employ music, and that are open to the public?
>
Yes, there are weekly worship as well as other types of meetings that are
open to the public. These initiatives of course are in their early stages
and God willing will further develop in sophistication and content. Music
is another story. Although we try, the Baha'i community needs to
significantly improve the expression of its love for Baha'u'llah through
music and other art forms. There are several efforts underway in Tennessee,
Connecticut and other places for increasing the quality and quantity of
Baha'i music. I am looking forward to seeing more of such endeavors. The
World Congress in 1992 offered some very good examples.
Since we are commanded in the Aqdas to build Houses of Worship
>throughout the lands, and since we are also commanded to worship in them,
>we do not need special instructions from the Insitutions before we pursue
>such a goal, just as we do not need special instructions to do other
>things commanded in the Aqdas, such as praying, fasting, and so forth.
Abd'ul-Baha explained the importance of having a center as well as the need
for a methodical and prudent approach in the following excerpt from a letter
to the Baha'is of New York:
Concerning the erection of the Temple: Now all the believers must
become united, so that the Temple may be built soon in one place. For
should the believers undertake the erection of the Temple in many places, it
will not become completed anywhere; and as in Chicago they have preceded
every other place to plan the erection of the Temple, undoubtedly to
cooperate and help them is nobler and a necessity. Then, when it is built
in one place, it will become erected in many other places. If, for the
present, you prepare or establish a home in New York, though by renting it,
to become a center for the gathering of the believers of God, it is very
acceptable. God willing, in all the states of America in the future there
will be erected Temples with infinite architectural beauty, art, with
pleasing proportion and handsome and attractive appearances; especially in
New York. But for the present, be ye satisfied with a rented place.
(Baha'i World Faith*, pages 414-415)
Finally, for those who defend our lack of places
>of worship, or who in general are happy with the fireside approach to
>teaching, I would like to point out again that the latter have not
>produced much in the way of practical results recently.
My experience with firesides has been the opposite. However it is clear
that fireside teaching alone will not bring about entry by troops. I have
also come to realize that fireside teaching helps train Baha'is in many
useful ways and can be viewed as a community development tool as well as
teaching.
Baha'is do not
>stop to think that some people, when they leave their church, lose their
>burial plot; they lose a community they meet with several times a week
>for worship and pot luck.
This point is well taken. There is an effort in the Philadelphia area to
establish a Baha'i cemetery. I'm sure there are similar efforts elsewhere.
There is a cemetery in the phily area where by default half a dozen Baha'is
are buried (all in proximity of each other). Negotiations are underway to
purchase additional plots in the same location from the owners of the
cemetery, make a little hedge around it, put up a sign and make it the
Baha'i Memorial Gardens for this area. All of this is being pursued through
individual initiative and by contacting families that would like to purchase
burial plots and be prepared for the calling of the "messenger of joy"
rather than having to make hasty last minute arrangements. Buying as a
group also enables one to negotiate from strength and get a better price.
The attitude that if local communities just can't get it together, then
too bad, does not
>strike me as a useful one.
Quite right. Sapling communities must be lovingly nurtured until they are
strong (if not mighty) trees and can withstand periods of drought by tapping
into needed resources through their deep roots. Running a House of Worship
through remote control is asking for dry timber falling on ones roof.
>In a community with an active Mashriqu'l-Adhkar and its educational
>dependencies, Baha'i intellectuals would no longer be a fifth wheel,
>which is how many are now viewed.
>
Just so we also look at the bright side, in my experience Baha'is have
always been delighted to meet and converse with learned Baha'is. In fact I
think sometime the high level of praise and appreciation may subject our
unsuspecting scholars to undue tests and spiritual perils.
We read interesting stories about mystics and sufies that would deliberately
break Islamic laws in public so as to diminish people's exalted view of them
and minimize their own tests of ego.
>5) I simply have to disagree that only selfish or divisive initiatives
>have been swatted down in the US community during the past two decades.
>The very terms of this way of thinking do not strike me a clear, since
>any individual initiative could conceivably be smeared as "selfish", and
>any new way of doing things could provoke disagreement and so seem
>divisive. This same way of looking at things could have been used to
>disparage Dan Jordan's ANISA programs, or Firuz Kazemzadeh's lobbying of
>the US Congress to pass the Genocide bill.
This is an age old dilemma which those on spiritual quests have had to deal
with for thousands of years and can be looked at from a number of
directions. Reading Rumi's Mathnavi recently clearly showed the same
questions being discussed centuries ago. This is perhaps one dimension of
the hadi'th that the bridge to heaven is thinner than a strand of hair and
sharper than a sword's edge (my paraphrasing). This to me is one of the
things that make our journey on this plain interesting.
"Do people think that we will not test them when they say that they
believe?" Paraphrased from Qura'n, 1st verse of Sureh of Spider.
I personally like this particular angle the most since it ties everything
with our own individual journey through life and what we want to make of it.
After all when we all take that inevitable step across the mysterious river
of life, it will be a very personal event which is extremely affected by the
nature of our everyday personal thoughts, decisions and conduct in this world.
How compellingly sweet are the words of Baha'u'llah:
"...Live then the days of thy life, that are less than a fleeting moment,
with thy mind stainless, thy heart unsullied, thy thoughts pure, and thy
nature sanctified, so that, free and content, thou mayest put away this
mortal frame, and repair unto the mystic paradise and abide in the eternal
kingdom for evermore. "
(Persian Hidden Words, page 44)
" O MY FRIENDS! Quench ye the lamp of error, and kindle within your hearts
the everlasting torch of divine guidance. For ere long the assayers of
mankind shall, in the holy presence of the Adored, accept naught but purest
virtue and deeds of stainless holiness. "
(Persian Hidden Words, page 35)
I am not advocating retreating from the affairs of the world or fatalistic
sufism. But I must be brief if every posting is not to be turned into a
laboriously long treaties.
I would also point out that especially the efforts of Firuz Kazemzadeh are
being carried out on behalf of the Baha'i community as a whole and are not ,
as far as I can tell, billed as his personal project. The Baha'i Office of
External Affairs consists of many wonderful and selfless individuals who as
a team are doing a wonderful job.
> If Baha'is do not see that their limitations on free discourse and
>inquiry produce intellectual stagnation, and in a literate society like
>the US impede the teaching work, then they will just be doomed to being a
>tiny, rather narrow-minded community.
We are tiny (with an impressive arsenal from the concourse on high if we
ever learn how to use them) but not doomed. Narrow-mindedness is fleeting
target.
The following utterance of the Blessed Perfection is soul stirringly
encouraging to me in my moments of despair:
" O friends! Be not careless of the virtues with which ye have been
endowed, neither be neglectful of your high destiny. Suffer not your labors
to be wasted through the vain imaginations which certain hearts have
devised. Ye are the stars of the heaven of understanding, the breeze that
stirreth at the break of day, the soft-flowing waters upon which must depend
the very life of all men, the letters inscribed upon His sacred scroll.
With the utmost unity, and in a spirit of perfect fellowship, exert
yourselves, that ye may be enabled to achieve that which beseemeth this Day
of God. Verily I say, strife and dissension, and whatsoever the mind of man
abhorreth are entirely unworthy of his station. Center your energies in the
propagation of the Faith of God. "
(Gleanings, page 196)
Whatever individuals and
>interests stand in the way of such enterprises should be swept away,
>since they are standing in the way of the progress of the Cause.
>
I tend not to be worried about the progress and ascendency of the Cause of
Baha'u'llah. The following prayer by Him provide an important perspective
on issue:
"The eyes of the world were gladdened at the sight of Thy luminous
countenance, and yet the peoples have united to put out Thy light, O Thou in
Whose hands are the reins of the worlds! All the atoms of the earth have
celebrated Thy praise, and all created things have been set ablaze with the
drops sprinkled by the ocean of Thy love, and yet the people still seek to
quench Thy fire. Nay - and to this Thine own Self beareth me witness - they
are all weakness, and Thou, verily, art the All-Powerful; and they are but
paupers and Thou, in truth, art the All-Possessing; and they are impotent
and Thou art, truly, the Almighty. Naught can ever frustrate Thy purpose,
neither can the dissensions of the world harm Thee. Through the breaths of
Thine utterance the heaven of understanding hath been adorned, and by the
effusions of Thy pen every moldering bone hath been quickened. Grieve not at
what hath befallen Thee, neither do Thou lay hold on them for the things
they have committed in Thy days. Do Thou be forbearing toward them. Thou
art the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Compassionate."
(Prayers and Meditations, pages 41-42)
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 14:15:49 -0900
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: Re: FW: Men are Shallow
Dear Mr. Belove,
I was the one who wrote this response to Millisa. I am sorry if I in any way
I have ofended your sense of decorum. I meant it to be mostly funny
interpersed with some reality and serious advice.
Let me say that I stand behind what I said even if it is taken seriously. If
one has a world embracing view then one can see some of these statements in
a different light. For a moment please consider the planet and not just
North America.
Women, in general, are seen as toys to be used, loved, protected, abused,
discarded, burnt, disfigured, and a host of other despicable actions forced
against them. All done by men, or through laws written by men from centuries
ago.
I see very little dignity in how the world has dealt with women. Coming from
Iran I have seen atrocities committed against women that torn my heart
apart. Our landlord, who later became a member of the Hosue fo
representatives and who was later killed by his own son, burnt his wife with
a cigarette lighter in front of me. She suffered through it and stayed with
him because she had no other choice, even though her father was a prominent
colonel in the Shah's army. I am sure I need not give any other examples.
>This is outrageous men bashing and only fractionally true.
What I said, taken globally, is not just 'fractionally' true, it is true in
most cases. Would you disagree that men see women as sexual objects most of
the time?
>Melissa, I'm sure that I can match you note for note in terms of
>horror stories and mine involved a woman in a Bahai context.
>
Of course, on a case by case you may be right, but can you ingeneral make
such a challenge.
>I simply cannot stand, will not stand these sorts of attacks on men
>as a group. I sometimes think white men are the last minority that it
>is okay to slur.
>
For centuries women have suffered through attacks and there has been no
protector for them and you can not stand my mild remarks. I fully understand
your position and I even agree with what you are saying, but for the sake of
fairness we have to be able to swallow some attacks.
>I think the damage and abuse some women have suffered has, for them,
>bought them a license to commit abuse.
>
What women have suffered in this world and are suffering can not be compared
to what men are going through these days. I hate it too. I find it painful
too. Yet, I fidn your reaction unreasonable.
>Many of the white men I know are damaged, healing, confused,
>concerned, thoughtful, considerate, funny, compassionate, loyal, fair
>minded and ever so slowly coming to wonder how to handle the bashing,
>the criticism, the barbs, the rage and hatred so often and so freely
>directed at them by (I hope) a tiny minority of women.
>
Are you not going overboard in your reaction to my statements?
>The one man Milissa is refering to might well have been tactless and
>crude. And my heart goes out to her. God knows I've been there myself
>enough times.
>
>And I'll even make jokes about what a bunch of yahoos we guys are.
>
>But this "Man are jerks" posting somehow goes past my sense of what
>is permissable.
>
I said men are shallow. I am also bothered by this question of what is
permissable. Please shed some light on this statement. Whom should I ask for
permission to be able to say what I said?
With deepest regards,
Arsalan
I wrote to Millisa:
>>>>Milissa Boyer
>>>>mboyer@ukanvm.cc.ukans.edu
>>>>
>>
>>Dear Ms. Boyer,
>>
>>Please allow me to add my two Rials in this discussion. Rial is the
>legal
>>tender within Talisman just in case you want to contribute to Dr.
>Uncle
>>Derek's Patagonia fund.
>>
>>1. All men are shallow and want only one thing. Forget about
>impressing men
>>with your faith. It is useless. Now, character is a different story.
>Don't
>>use the Faith as a crutch. Use strength of character and you will be
>surprised.
>>
>>2. If you are doing your search through either correspondence/e-mail
>do not
>>raise expectations. Be very open and frank about your general
>appearance and
>>physical condition and if they don't respond, then to hell with
>them. They
>>are not worth it. You rarely find a man that is truly worthy, but
>you can
>>mold him to what you want with time.
>>
>>3. Avoid big words. That will sacre away many men very quickly.
>>
>>4. Listen very carefully to whatever the want to say. As Covery
>says,
>>"Understand first, then be understood." Both requires active
>participation
>>on your part. Men are generally too stupid to understand, so be
>ready to
>>carry with you a hammer and then they will listen. Make sure though
>that you
>>listen very carefull first.
>>
>>5. Men are genetically not designed to see deep inside another
>person. The
>>surface is where most stop. Use whatever force, manipulation,
>threats, and
>>violance available to you to make them see deep. I assure you it can
>be
>>done. Just be patient.
>>
>>6. Most important of all, work on your own self steem. Most men
>admire
>>others who have a stron sense of self steem. I don't mean arrogance,
>>assertiveness, or aggresiveness, but a healthy sense of respect for
>yourself.
>>
>>7. As a general rule, no put downs; specially for yourself. Accept
>>complimants with dignity and grace and shower the other party with
>praise
>>and encouragement. Negative feelings are very dangerous. Avoid them
>the way
>>Dracula would avoid sunburn.
>>
>>I hope this has helped a little.
>>
>>Yours truly,
>>
>>Miserable in Alaska
>>Arsalan J. Sadighi
>>
>>
>> "You can present the material, but you can't make me care."
>>
>> Calvin and Hobbs
>>
>
>-------------------------------------
>Name: Philip Belove
>E-mail: belove@sover.net
>Date: 02/15/96
>Time: 18:56:25
>
>This message was sent by Chameleon
>-------------------------------------
>Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
>Einstein
>
>
>
Arsalan J. Sadighi
"Things are never quite as scary when you've got a best friend."
Calvin and Hobbes
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 14:25:09 -0900
To: Cheshmak A Farhoumand , 70662.2417@compuserve.com,
Mark_Insteness@dot.state.ak.us, talisman@indiana.edu
From: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal
Dearest Cheshmak,
How about starting next week? Shall we start with the Persian section? I
think we can learn from this cooperative learning.
>
>
>Dear Arsalan, i think this is a wonderful idea. I would love to
>participate in a deepening on the Hidden Words. Let me know when we are
>starting.
>
>Regards,
>cheshmak
>
>
Arsalan J. Sadighi
"Things are never quite as scary when you've got a best friend."
Calvin and Hobbes
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 18:38:11 -0500 (EST)
From: Cheshmak A Farhoumand
To: "Arsalan J. Sadighi"
Cc: 70662.2417@compuserve.com, Mark_Insteness@dot.state.ak.us,
talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal
Arsalan jan, Next week sounds great. Sure, the Persian section is great.
It will bring back fond memories of memorizing them for Dr. Ghadimi's
class. I always looked forward to learning a new one and learning to not
just simply say them but to say them poetically (declameh, as we say in
Persian) He shared a beautiful story with us one day. We were talking
about the importance of memorizing the Writings and he told us about a
letter he had just received from a former student of his, a young lady
who was imprisoned for some time before being released. Anyway, one day
this lady was cleaning the floor of her cell and the sound of the cloth
on the stone floor was raf raf raf raf. This reminded her of the Hidden
Word that says (az raf rafeh **** ta **** montahah) (sorry, i have
forgotten them!) and so she began to say the Hidden Words she had
memorized in Dr. Ghadimi's class as she scrubbed the floor. She wrote to
him that this was her only consolation in her time at prison.
Let us know the format of this deepening.
Regards,
cheshmak
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 18:51:29 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Rights/Justice and Worship
Dear All ,
Some realtively random thoughts on Quanta and Juans thoughts on
liberalism and repression .
In the Book of Certitude Baha u llah says " What oppression is more
grievous than that a soul seeking the truth, and wishing to attain unto the
knowledge of God, should know not where to go for it and from whom to seek
it ?"
At first blush they may seem to have little to do with the foundations
of liberalism or human oppression .
My read on history is as follows . Prior to the "liberal ' revolutions
of some 350 years ago authority and the basis of human society was tied in a
fusion between religious and political authority symbolized by the divine
right of Kings. Note "right" in this case vests in an institution .
The liberal revolution in thought challenges this and suggests that
rights adhere to people . The early stages of this of course limited the
exercise of those rights to landed and then mercantile property holders. The
"republican " side of this debate looked "back to the future" for a model to
forestall the cyclical decay of all governments and civilizations . The model
was some form of Athenian demos but more importantly a virtuous Roman
republic .The republicans looked to the *State* as the basis of social order
but without any explicit ties to an established Church - there were many
competing models or sectarian understandings of the Church .
Liberalism . at least it American variant , proposed something different
. it accepted the seperation of Church / State - that is differentiating the
institutional authority of religion the Church from that of the State , the
civil Government . It went further in American Constitution building by
adopting a variation of Newtons mechanical model of the universe and reading
that "atomistic " and "unconnected " perception of the universe back into an
understanding of human history and social life . The result a radical
individualism - sort of - . The catch became what was to be the basis of
social order . If not the Church and if not the State what ? . The
miraculous answer was , in my view , an understanding of the institutional
character of *competative markets *. here was an institutional setting in
which the pursuit of self interest - Newtons individual atoms - would pay
itself out . Thus the basis of social life was to be * homo oeconomicus* the
individual in pursuit of their economic self interest and "institutionalized
" in the competative labor and product markets known as capitalism or simply
a* Market * society. It was now the market and the values associated with and
underlying it which became the norm for understanding human life and
"action".
This version of Market Society and the elaborate defense of existing
colonial property arrangements had a restriction inserted into the middle of
it . At the insistence of one yes here I go again Thomas Jefferson . We
know it as the Bill of Rights . If the Church was not the basis of social
life and the State was not the basis of social life what was one to do with
religion and state in a Market society. The solution relegate religion to an
individual pursuit in the privacy of ones conscience - the privatization of
religion and give the state a role as mediator between the terrible human
tendency to form *factions * otherwise known as molecules in a Newtonian
universe of atoms as the highest form of social existence and the state gets
a second role to protect the primacy of property and existing property
arrangements.
The bill of rights are the product of the historical "oppression" of
individuals by institutional authority. If the "Bill " did nothing else but
serve as a symbolic reminder of the limitations of institutional authority i
would cheer . The limitation is however they are a necessary but not
sufficient condition for the creation of a just society. They speak to
political rights but to not speak to the conditions of a *Market * society
which continually makes a mockery of those rights . Further in as much as
human beings are not atoms nor are we fused molecules but sentient beings we
are formed in a state of *intersubjectivity*. Note I am saying
intersubjective not subjective and objective . Intersubjectivity carries
with it a desire or necessity for meaning . Religion is the province of
meaning .
In a liberal society religion is *exiled* to the private shere . It is
also in that sphere granted a status of sacredness of conscience . I
consider this a necesary pre-condition for any truly human existence and for
the proper development of the *intersubjectivity * that creates meaning and
human identity .
The problem that I see is that this is not enough . Humans need, in an
increasingly global society, to develop *meanings * and *identities *
appropriate to the emergence of such a society. The society in which this
occurs is a *Market * society ; the institutionalization of an atomistic
conception of life . The expanatory system of meaning which accompanies such
a society is materialism . This philosophy in varying ways has permeated
every aspect of our conscousness including atomistic notions of '"rights".
. The perpetuation of which is institutionalized in advertising among other
means.
I would suggest that the horrors of the 20th century are a response to
the spiritual vacuity of *Market * society and an attempt to re-create some
fusion between the state and 'religion" now concieved as one or more of the
"false gods" of which Shoghi Effendi spoke , most notably racial deification
or that of the state itself - Fascism and Commmunism . I would suggest that
the *market * society is implicated in the horrors of the 20 th century
because it enthroned an atomistic and materialistic philosophy and
institutional basis for society - the Market and its values.
Bahau llahs statement about "oppression" becomes particularly important
in the face of a market society which prevents the development of an
"intersubjective " global society. And in this is both the necessity and the
limitation of *rights* politically conceived in a liberal society.
So what might this have to with teaching , entry by troops and the "twin
Houses" of Bahai Community development . It seems to me that the House of
Worship and the House of Justice stand for an alternative to either
traditional society and theocracy inits religious forms or it secular forms -
the deification of the state and as an alternative to a "Market " society.
The House of Worship and its subsidiary institutions are indispensible to
the formation of a spiritually based society the transition beyond and a
radical critique of a *Market* society. it represents the elimination of that
grievous oppression of which Bahau llah speaks in the Book of Certitude. it
institutionalizes "irfan ". The House of Justice is indidpensible to the
protection and safeguarding of "men , women and children" as bahau lah notes
in the Kalimat. As such it safeguards the "rights" associated with liberal
society , freedom of expression and conscience etc. . It exercises this
function in the context of the House of Worship and the *intesubjectivity *
inherent in a meaningful understanding of the principle of the oneness of
humankind the formation of meaning and identity in the face of a globalising
world.
This means to me that the House of worship is in *Reality * open to the
followers of al religions -everyone is saved - or religius truth is relative
not absolute - and creates the conditions in which the intersubective
creation of human meaning and identity can occur . The House of Justice is
then the advocate and protector in the world as the embodiment of those
rights necessary to the creation and maintenance of a society based on
justice. The House of Justice then needs to be the epitome of
"right(ousness)" both within and without the Bahai community . it exists
to defend the interjubjectivity ehich makes us human form both the ravages of
the state which would deny human rights and as the protector of the House of
Worship from the ravages of the Market as the basis of social life.
Anything less than consorting with the followers of all religions in the
House of Worship (inner and outer) tends toward religious fundamentalism and
offers nothing to the world . Anything less than a complete dedication to
those rights inherent to the intersubjective formation of meaning and
identity within the House of Justice (inner and outer) tends toward
trasditional theocracy and offers nothing to the world . it is the
combination of these two which forms my understanding of Baha u llah's
prescription for humankind ; the creation of a post-traditional and a
post-modern world . It is the best I know how to express my sense of Bahau
llah and the establishment of an *Irfan Republic*.
warm regards ,
Terry
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: sconig@robin.no
Cc: Talisman@indiana.edu, bahai-exchange-uk@bcca.org
Subject: Re: Parents - special blessing after death??
Date: 16 Feb 1996 17:52:03 GMT
"In reference to your questions about ancestors and descendants, we have been
directed to say that while there are Tablets from Baha'u'llah stating that
faith in the Manifestation of God on the part of a believer attracts God's
mercy to the souls of departed parents the House of Justice knows of no text
in Baha'is Writings to support the statement that a believer's seven past
generations and seven generations to descend from him are blessed when that
person becomes a Baha'i. You may also be familiar with the statement of
'Abdu'l-Baha that 'it is permitted to ask for advancement, forgiveness,
mercy, beneficence, and blessings for a man after his death .... Therefore
children ... must implore pardon and forgiveness for their parents.' (from
"Some Answered Questions" pages 268-269)."
((From a letter written on behalf on the Universal House of Justice to an
individual believer, Feb 23, 1978, cited in Lights of Guidance 2nd & 3rd ed,
#760))
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
From: Don_R._Calkins@commonlink.com (Don R. Calkins)
To: scoles@zebu.serv.net
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Re: Postage Due Romance.
Date: 16 Feb 1996 17:51:48 GMT
> We UUs say the same in theory. In practice, we seldom find a non-UU
> looking for a spouse who meditates with a beer in each hand.
Good point. I doubt that I would marry a non-Baha'i at this point, however I
don't dismiss them out of hand. But it would be an unusual woman (since I'm
male) that was oriented toward spiritual development within, say, a Christian
context, and could accept the amount of time I spend on Baha'i activities.
But not impossible.
Don C
He who believes himself spiritual proves he is not - The Cloud of Unknowing
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 19:23:32 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Misc.
1 Baha'i centers and Mashariq: I recall that a couple of years ago the
Denver community acquired a splendid Baha'i center--from a dying
Christian Science congregation, as I recall. Does anyone know how it has
worked out?
2. Elected/appointed/scholars: It is, of course, the case that the
institution of the learned is not usually learned. A cousin of mine was
a counsellor for a while. He is not an academic in any sense, although
he is a shrewd and intelligent person (though he is deeply learned in
Italian opera, which may or may not have helped him in his counselling).
Clearly, the relevant quality for counsellors and ABMs is the combination
of shrewdness, good will, and experience that we call wisdom. I did have
one academic friend who served a term as a Board Member. He seemed quite
miserable with it by the end. Anyway, his talents were clearly best used
writing and teaching, not going off to set aright some distant community
that was riven by a nasty divorce. I don't know whether he was good or
bad at it, and it certainly is a worthy thing to do. However, his
specialized training did not particularly equip him to take on the role,
and having the role as ABM kept him from doing the things that he was
best qualified to do.
3. Center for the Study of the Text: Since there is no reason to belief
that either the elective institutions or the counsellors/ABMs are
especially qualified to deal with scholarly issues, perhaps something
else ought to be tried. The approach that worked in the West was the
university: academic scholars function as self-governing communities, and
the larger community (a) detaches itself from academic disputes and (b)
expresses its wishes by funding or not funding academic ventures.
Perhaps the Center for the Study of the Text should be constituted this
way. If it is simply a research office verifying quotations for the
House of Justice, it will be a wasted opportunity and a farce. If it
attempts to be the arm by which the House of Justice centrally manages
Baha'i intellectual life, it won't work, for the same reasons it didn't
work for the Pope. Perhaps the Center should be constituted as a
semi-independent entity--independent enough so that it doesn't just get
sucked in as part of the House's staff. If so, it would be a real
institution, capable of adding something new to the capabilities of the
World Center.
4. Independence (and freedom to set its own intellectual agenda) is
important for another reason: there is no Guardian. Clearly, both
`Abdu'l-Baha and Shoghi Effendi saw the Guardian as the person who
maintained the *intellectual* integrity of the House's decisions. That
specific function is defunct, obviously, but the need still exists for
intellectual input into the House's decisions that is not driven simply
by the current administrative needs of the House and the World Center.
Let us take the House's recent letter on homosexuality as an example.
Regardless of whether one agrees or disagrees with the content of the
decision, the House would surely have profited by someone who could tell
them with some considerable degree of independence precisely why the
decision would be objectionable in certain quarters, why the arguments
advanced in the letter would not necessarily be convincing, and what
arguments were likely to be made against them. Whether the House would
have decided differently, I don't know, but it is likely that the letter
would better have addressed current thinking on the issue of homosexuality.
john walbridge
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 19:30:54 -0500 (EST)
From: jwalbrid
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: From the list owner, re moods
I, and others, have noticed a tone of grouchiness spreading over the list
in recent days. I do not approve.
I would ask the honored participants to please remember that other
participants may be presumed also to be people of good will. Kindly
mellow your tones, think before replying, and remember that the person
who wrote the message you just read has probably not said something
absurd (well, except for Burl) but rather has either said something you
disagree with and whose reasons you do not understand well enough or has
said something that you don't understand correctly.
Please remember also that you are generated a great deal of traffic. Try
to be concise and to the point. Also remember that if you draft a
crushing put-down, you may admire your own eloquence and cleverness but
you are also encouraging your interlocutor to surpass your achievements
in invective.
John Walbridge
List Owner
=END=
From: SFotos@eworld.com
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 16:27:45 -0800
To: Loni.BramsonLerche@ping.be
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu, MMHiggins@eworld.com, DaystarJapan@eworld.com,
bahai-st@jcccnet.johnco.cc.ks.us
Subject: education for Baha'i children (was computer programers)
Dear Loni,
>As you probably know my family and I are pioneering in Belgium.
>One of the greatest tests for pioneers is the education of their
>children.
Facing similar problems, I sent my daughter to Maxwell at age 14 and my son
to Japan's own school, Day Star, also at age 14.
The point has been raised on Talisman that these fledgling Baha'i
institutions are not perfect--what institutions are at present?--but they are
all that we have and our support of them helps them develop into superior
forms. Given the sordid environment surrounding our youth and the lack of
Baha'i peers to help them resist involvement in dangerous activities, a
Baha'i school might offer you the best solution at present.
They are expensive and it is very hard, from the parents' point of view, to
send young children away, but the end result is often worth it.
Another option to consider is starting your own Baha'i school!! This was the
solution for the family who founded Day Star in southern Japan.
If you are interested in this possibility, you might want to contact Michael
Higgins . Michael, Lorraine Miller-Nara and Judith
Johnson established a Baha'i-run school in Sakhalin, Russia, and have now set
up an educational initiative program to assist people in developing their own
Baha'i institution.
Best,
Sandy
Sandra S. Fotos, Ed.D.
Associate Professor of English
Senshu University, Tokyo
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 16:52:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Re: Laws of Kitab-i Aqdas
[This message is converted from WPS-PLUS to ASCII]
Arsalan jan,
I'm skeptical of certain Talisman comments about desire to have local
Houses of Worship. Let me share a story to illustrate my point.
About a year ago, a number of Talismanians were participating at the
Aqdas conference in Wilmette. We were all staying in the same hotel,
only a few miles away from the Temple. During the conference, every
single morning I went to the Temple and was absolutely the only one
there. For over an hour I would remain in the main chamber, chanting
out loud prayers, and the peculiar things was that not *once*, any of
the Talismanians who had been complaining non-stop about lack of
Houses of Worship, did I see in the Temple. I was at the Temple
every evening too, and while I saw many other Baha'is, never did I
see those who today you see writing moving posts on building Houses
of Worship. Draw your own conclusions.
I'm against building local Houses of Worship at this time. I feel we
need a vast increase in the number of Baha'i Centers to help
communities organize their activities, but our numerical basis is
grossly insufficient to build *Houses of Worship*. I suspect that
the House of Justice has similar concerns which is why they have
never encouraged building local Temples -- but I don't know for sure.
As far as your concern about "individual initiative" is concerned,
Talisman is set up to debate such proposals and I simply commented
that to my understanding the legal basis to launch such efforts was
absent since the House of Justice had never permitted it. Do you
have a counter argument?
regards, ahang.
=END=
Date: 16 Feb 96 19:27:14 EST
From: David Langness <72110.2126@compuserve.com>
To:
Subject: Mysticism Conference Agenda
Dear Talismanians,
The Talisman Mysticism Conference lives!!
Envisioned as the first in an annual series of conferences
focusing on the mystical teachings of the Bab, Baha'u'llah, and
'Abdu'l-Baha, the participants of Talisman designed this upcoming
weekend to help develop a greater sense of devotional and mystical
life in our Baha'i lives and communities. Those registered to
attend (the conference engendered an overwhelming response, and has
filled Bosch) will participate in experiential activities such as
song, dance, nature walks, group zikr and meditation, and a
celebratory evening in honor of Darvish Sidq Ali, along with a few
formal, interactive presentations on various aspects of the
conference theme.
AGENDA: Talisman Mysticism Conference
Friday, February 23, 1996
Arrival: Afternoon
Please register beginning at 5:00 pm Martha Root Hall
Dinner: 7:00 pm
Opening
Program: 8:00 pm Devotions
8:15 pm Bosch Orientation
8:30 pm Introductions/Preface
facilitated by David Langness and Steven Scholl
9:30 pm Closing
Saturday, February 24, 1996
7:00 am --
A Walk with the Ancients -- a meditative spiritual walk
with Teresa Langness, Torrance, California
(bring a prayer book and meet at Martha Root Hall promptly
at 7 am)[optional session -- repeated at 4:00 pm, weather
permitting]
Dawn
Prayers: 7:30 am Martha Root Hall
Bkfst: 8:00
Morning
Session: 9:00 am Devotions Martha Root Hall
9:15 am Announcements/Late Arrival Introductions
9:30 am --
The Mystical Path in the Writings of Shaykh Ahmad
by Juan Ricardo Cole, Ann Arbor, Michigan
(presentation via videotape and live telephone hook-up)
10:30 am Break
11:00 am --
Baha-Maiden Dialogues
by Terry Culhane, Omaha, Nebraska
12:30 pm Lunch
Aft/noon
Session: 2:30 pm -- Martha Root Hall
Mystical Praxis
by Nima Hazini, Albuquerque, New Mexico
3:30 pm Break
4:00 pm Optional break-out sessions:
(Locations to be announced)
- The Mystical Image -- art videos by Sonja van
Kerkhoff (featuring Sen McGlinn's poetry and music
from many European Baha'i contributors)
- A Mystical Experience Using Music: A Guided Lesson
taught by Amir
- Exploring the Beginnings of Meditation
by Derek Cockshut
- Spiritualizing Community with Music Workshop
by Lora McCall, Omaha, Nebraska
[this session will teach participants the
original music for the evening program]
- A Walk with the Ancients
by Teresa Langness
Dinner: 5:30 pm
Dessert
Fund-
Raiser: 7:00 pm -- All you can eat sugar load and
dessert pigout, proceeds go to the
Bosch classroom fund. [$5 per person]
Evening
Program: 8:00 pm -- Martha Root Hall
Spiritual Preparation: Breathing and Centering Exercises
by Erica Batdorf, Movement Theatre Artist
Special Commemoration of Darvish Sidq 'Ali, one of the
Sufi companions of Baha'u'llah. In Memorials of the
Faithful, 'Abdu'l-Baha recalls how Baha'u'llah
"set apart a special night and He dedicated it to
Darvish Sidq 'Ali. He wrote that every year . . .
the dervishes should bedeck a meeting place, which
should be in a flower garden, amd gather there to
make mention of God."
As far as we know, this will be the first commemoration
in Darvish Sidq 'Ali's memory since the time of
Baha'u'llah. Lora McCall and Terry Culhane of Omaha,
Nebraska will organize a special ceremony. LuAnne
Hightower and Steven Scholl will then lead a special
"Remembrance of God" zikr chanting and dancing session.
Sunday, February 25. 1996
Dawn
Prayers: 7:30 am -- Martha Root Hall
Bkfst: 8:00 am
Morning
Session: 9:00 am -- Martha Root Hall
Devotions and silent meditation
9:30 am -- Concluding program -- Consultation/sharing
facilitated by David Langness and Steven Scholl
11:00 -- break
11:30 -- Singing and celebration
12:30 -- Lunch
1:00 -- Conference ends
Thank you to everyone who worked hard on this unique gathering.
We'll see you all at Bosch. For those unable to attend, we will
post daily updates on Talisman during the conference.
Love,
David
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 19:52:28 EST
Subject: Nationalistic mudslinging
Dearest Professor Juan,
Pringle, Pringle
Crunchy Bar,
how I wonder
what you are.
The stuff which
you're made of
unreadable to the eye.
My daughter is gone to a Baha'i Center fundraising party, so I am
back. Now, let's get one thing out of the way. I am not one of those
nationalistic Turks you may have taken me for, so let's stop the
nationalistic mudslinging now. I am living here in America as a
a U.S. citizen. I did not take that very casually either. I could
have become a citizen in three years after being here. But,
I waited for 13 years to do so. No convenience marriages for me.
What type of mud would you sling at me, if I was born here and spoke
the same words? Now, let's get serious about other issues here.
First, you stop about Ataturk etc. and I will not say a word what
the forefathers and other leaders of this nation did. We all have
shells to crack layer after layer. I cracked my nationalistic one
long time ago. I wish and pray the same for you.
About freedom of speech issue. How long can we go on supporting the
"contending masses" hurling at each other like the "barking of the
dogs"? Is this how you perceive your role in bringing about the unity
of the human race to be? I support the freedom of speech. But, my
ears also want to have the freedom not to be polluted by the garbage
that is thrown at them by some loud mouths in the society either.
So, what about the freedom of hearing unpolluted sounds? Freedom of
seeing unpolluted sights. I can go on and on.
You say you voted for some politician whom you named. You have a
right to do so. But, let me tell you this, just as they dropped the
poor like hot potatoes, I can assure you that they will also drop you
like a hot potatoe one day. After all one prominent man who led a
million men march is chummy with some foes. Did you read the news
lately? It seems to me that the prophetic words of the Guardian
in the Advent of Divine Justice ring a bell. Signs are getting more
ominous day by day. So, tighten your belt. After all there are only
120,000 registered Baha'is. Politically speaking we are outnumbered.
I hope those whose freedom of speech you fight for, will be fighting
for your rights to freedom of religion also. Good luck my friend.
love,
quanta
****************************************
Random connections cause great creations.
****************************************
(919) 666-9999 U.S.A.
Call! if you dare
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 18:35:46 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: QUANTA DAWNLIGHT
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: Ataturk
Dearest Quanta (affectionately known by me as cybermom)--
You need to read Lord Kinross' autobiography of Mustafa Kemal. Surely, he
was a political genius, did a lot of good by pulling Turkey out of the
morass she found itself after WW1, modernizing her, etc. -- no doubt about
it --, but Ataturk was also a monster of pathological proportions at the
same time. His fits of murderous rage, incorrigible womanizing (often
with the wives of his own officers), betrayal of friends, constant purges,
iron-fisted authoritarianism , etc. etc. etc. are one and all legendary.
In many respects he was no different than his counterpart in the North,
Josef Stalin. Personally I cannot forgive the man for his atrocious
treatment of the Sufi Orders, and particularly the Mevleviyye.
Regards,
Nima
**************************************************************
* Paradox is a characteristic of truth. What communis opinio *
* has of truth is surely no more than an elementary deposit *
* of generalizing partial understanding, related to truth *
* even as sulphurous fumes are to lightning. *
* *
* --From the correspondence of Count Paul von Wartenburg *
* and Wilhelm Dilthey *
**************************************************************
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 19:01:07 -0700 (MST)
From: Sadra
To: Talisman@indiana.edu
Cc: frlw@midway.uchicago.edu, Masumian@mail.utexas.edu,
Noorbakhsh.Monzavi@hibo.no
Subject: Reuters 2/16/96 (fwd)
> 'IRAN' STORIES
>Transmission date: 96/02/16
> 1. 11:48 IRAN, EXILES TRADE CHARGES OVER KIDNAP IN GERMANY
> 2. 10:45 IRAN RALLIES BLAST MIDDLE EAST PEACE ACCORDS
> 3. 10:42 IRAN RALLIES BLAST MIDDLE EAST PEACE ACCORDS
> 4. 09:42 HIZBOLLAH FIGHTERS IN JERUSALEM DAY MARCHPAST
>Transmission date: 96/02/15
> 5. 18:39 U.S. CONDEMNS DEATH SENTENCE ON IRANIAN BAHAI
> 6. 16:21 IRAN MILITANTS DISRUPT MEMORIAL FOR LEFTIST POET
>
>=START= XMT: 11:48 Fri Feb 16 EXP: 1 :00 Mon Feb 19
>
>
> Iran, exiles trade charges over kidnap in Germany
> BONN, Feb 16 (Reuter) - Iran and an opposition group in exile traded
>allegations on Friday over who kidnapped and tortured an Iranian man seeking
>political asylum in Germany.
> Officials from the Paris-based National Council of Resistance of Iran
>accused Tehran of sending a team of agents to snatch the man, whom it described
>as a former Revolutionary Guard and a defector from the Iranian intelligence
>service.
> Iran's embassy in Bonn denied the charge and said a dispute between rival
>opposition groups was behind the kidnapping.
> The victim, a 28-year-old man who lives near Cologne but who has not been
>named, was badly beaten and burned in the incident near Bonn last week before
>he escaped his assailants after two days, authorities said. Police said the
>attack might have been politically motivated.
> Authorities said four Farsi-speaking men grabbed the man at gunpoint on
>February 2 as he emerged from the home of another exiled Iranian, Fereidoun
>Gilani, an author and journalist who lives in Hennef, near Bonn.
> The man, who has been in Germany for a year, was able to escape two days
>later and summon help at a petrol station. He was still being treated in
>hospital for his injuries.
> Prosecutors declined to comment on who was responsible.
> ``This kidnapping was the work of the Iranian regime and reflects a new,
>different level of terrorism here in Europe,'' Ebrahim Zakeri, a National
>Council of Resistance of Iran official, told reporters in Bonn.
> The Council, linked to the Iraq-based Mujahideen Khalq guerrilla group, is
>a persistent critic of the Islamic fundamentalist government in Tehran.
> The Iranian embassy denied the allegation and suggested the victim had been
>seized by the Mujahideen Khalq itself in a case of mistaken identity. ``The
>whole affair has to do with a fight among rival opposition groups,'' it said in
>a statement.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 10:45 Fri Feb 16 EXP: 0 :00 Mon Feb 19
>
>
> Iran rallies blast Middle East peace accords
> TEHRAN, Feb 16 (Reuter) - Large crowds chanting ``Death to Israel'' and
>``Death to America'' marched in Tehran to celebrate Jerusalem Day on Friday and
>heard President Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani condemn Middle East peace accords as a
>sell-out.
> Men and women marched to Tehran University carrying placards reading
>``Death to compromisers'' and pictures of Iran's late leader Ayatollah Ruhollah
>Khomeini and his successor Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.
> The demonstration was part of rallies held across Iran to mark ``al-Qods
>(Jerusalem) Day,'' the last Friday of the Moslem fasting month of Ramadan
>dedicated to protests against the Jewish state by Ayatollah Khomeini in 1979.
> Rafsanjani, addressing the crowd, condemned the accords for not solving the
>central problem of Palestinian refugees.
> ``How can it be possible to disregard the fate of four million Palestinian
>refugees...These peoples' existence is full of rage,'' Rafsanjani said in a
>prayer sermon broadcast on Tehran radio.
> ``It is impossible to solve the Palestinian problem in this way...The
>Islamic movement will certainly become stronger...In the past it did not have a
>base like the Islamic Republic,...a country of 60 million, with all these
>resources,'' he said.
> ``Arab and Islamic nations will certainly not be convinced. The weak Arab
>governments will not succeed in convincing their public, and world Moslems,
>including Iran will surely not give up their Islamic rights,'' Rafsanjani told
>the crowd which responded by chanting Allahu Akbar (God is Greatest).
> ``America is really wrong...They are killing people in the name of peace
>and deepening the crisis. If they have goodwill they should solve the refugee
>problem...so that Jews, Christians and Moslems...can live together in
>Palestine,'' Rafsanjani said.
> ``It bitter to see that Arabs believe that this peace...will end wars. It
>is very simplistic to believe that Israel would agree in these conditions to an
>independent Palestinian state being set up next to (it),'' he added.
> ``This is a sad period of history. This lack of sensibility and the fact
>that (Arabs and Moslems) don't feel the danger (of Israel) is very bad. Our
>voice, as a state is almost alone, and we have a lot to do,'' Rafsanjani said
>in a rare recognition of Iran's isolation in the face of the peace process.
> A resolution read at the rally blasted the United States as ``the century's
>mother of corruption'' and called for ``continued struggle until the
>anihilation of the Zionist regime (Israel),'' Tehran radio said.
> The Iranian news agency IRNA said rallies were also held on Abu Musa and
>the Greater Tunb, two of three Gulf islands also claimed by the United Arab
>Emirates.
> Hundreds of Turkish citizens living in Iran held a demonstration at
>Turkey's embassy in Tehran against their country's close ties with Israel, the
>agency added.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 10:42 Fri Feb 16 EXP: 0 :00 Mon Feb 19
>
>
> Iran rallies blast Middle East peace accords
> TEHRAN, Feb 16 (Reuter) - Large crowds chanting ``Death to Israel'' and
>``Death to America'' marched in Tehran to celebrate Jerusalem Day on Friday and
>heard President Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani condemn Middle East peace accords as a
>sell-out.
> Men and women marched to Tehran University carrying placards reading
>``Death to compromisers'' and pictures of Iran's late leader Ayatollah Ruhollah
>Khomeini and his successor Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.
> The demonstration was part of rallies held across Iran to mark ``al-Qods
>(Jerusalem) Day,'' the last Friday of the Moslem fasting month of Ramadan
>dedicated to protests against the Jewish state by Ayatollah Khomeini in 1979.
> Rafsanjani, addressing the crowd, condemned the accords for not solving the
>central problem of Palestinian refugees.
> ``How can it be possible to disregard the fate of four million Palestinian
>refugees...These peoples' existence is full of rage,'' Rafsanjani said in a
>prayer sermon broadcast on Tehran radio.
> ``It is impossible to solve the Palestinian problem in this way...The
>Islamic movement will certainly become stronger...In the past it did not have a
>base like the Islamic Republic,...a country of 60 million, with all these
>resources,'' he said.
> ``Arab and Islamic nations will certainly not be convinced. The weak Arab
>governments will not succeed in convincing their public, and world Moslems,
>including Iran will surely not give up their Islamic rights,'' Rafsanjani told
>the crowd which responded by chanting Allahu Akbar (God is Greatest).
> ``America is really wrong...They are killing people in the name of peace
>and deepening the crisis. If they have goodwill they should solve the refugee
>problem...so that Jews, Christians and Moslems...can live together in
>Palestine,'' Rafsanjani said.
> ``It bitter to see that Arabs believe that this peace...will end wars. It
>is very simplistic to believe that Israel would agree in these conditions to an
>independent Palestinian state being set up next to (it),'' he added.
> ``This is a sad period of history. This lack of sensibility and the fact
>that (Arabs and Moslems) don't feel the danger (of Israel) is very bad. Our
>voice, as a state is almost alone, and we have a lot to do,'' Rafsanjani said
>in a rare recognition of Iran's isolation in the face of the peace process.
> A resolution read at the rally blasted the United States as ``the century's
>mother of corruption'' and called for ``continued struggle until the
>anihilation of the Zionist regime (Israel),'' Tehran radio said.
> The Iranian news agency IRNA said rallies were also held on Abu Musa and
>the Greater Tunb, two of three Gulf islands also claimed by the United Arab
>Emirates.
> Hundreds of Turkish citizens living in Iran held a demonstration at
>Turkey's embassy in Tehran against their country's close ties with Israel, the
>agency added.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 09:42 Fri Feb 16 EXP: 9 :00 Mon Feb 19
>
>
> Hizbollah fighters in Jerusalem Day marchpast
> BEIRUT, Feb 16 (Reuter) - Hundreds of fighters of Lebanon's pro-Iranian
>Hizbollah (Party of God) marched through Beirut's Shi'ite Moslem suburbs on
>Friday in a show of strength marking Jerusalem Day and the anniversary of
>Iran's Islamic Revolution.
> Well-drilled military units in black sweaters, black scarves and khaki
>trousers, wearing camouflage paint and headbands, jogged past Hizbollah leader
>Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah shouting slogans like ``Al Jihad'' (Holy War) and
>``Biddimaa'' (With blood).
> They trampled over large U.S. and Israeli flags painted on the road.
> The fighters carried no weapons. One unit's yellow headbands bore the
>message: ``Jerusalem, here we come.'' About 50 motorcyclists rode past with
>Hizbollah flags flying.
> Hizbollah's Islamic Resistance guerrillas are fighting to oust 1,000
>Israeli troops and their local militia allies from a south Lebanon border
>occupation zone.
> A senior Lebanese army officer in uniform sat in the reviewing stand with
>Nasrallah and representatives of radical Palestinian groups.
> They included Ramadan Abdullah Shallah, general secretary of Palestininan
>Islamic Jihad, whose predecessor Fathi Shqaqi was assassinated in Malta last
>October. The group has carried out suicide attacks in Israel, the West Bank and
>Gaza.
> Moustapha Ledawi, Beirut representative of the Islamic resistance movement
>Hamas, was also seated in the reviewing stand.
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 18:39 Thu Feb 15 EXP: 8 :00 Sun Feb 18
>
>
> U.S. condemns death sentence on Iranian Bahai
> WASHINGTON, Feb 15 (Reuter) - The United States on Thursday condemned a
>death sentence passed upon a member of the Bahai faith in Iran and called on
>the Tehran government to release him.
> The French branch of the faith said on Sunday that an Islamic revolutionary
>court in Iran had passed the sentence on Zabihullah Mahrami, 49, on charges of
>apostasy -- returning to his original faith after converting to Islam.
> ``The United States government strongly condemns the conviction and the
>sentence and calls upon the Iranian government to repudiate them, to release Mr
>Mahrami, and to take all steps necessary to ensure his safety,'' State
>Department spokesman Nicholas Burns said.
> ``The United States further calls on the government of Iran to cease its
>persecution of the Bahais and other religious minorities and to comply
> with the
>International Convention on Civil and Political Rights,'' he said in a
>statement.
> Mahrami, born a Bahai, was accused of converting to Islam in 1981 to avoid
>being fired from his government job but returned to the Bahai faith seven years
>later, according to translations of court documents provided by the French
>Bahais.
> The Bahai faith, an off-shoot of Islam, was created in Iran 150 years ago.
>It says it has six million members worldwide including 350,000 in Iran where,
>according to the court documents released in Paris, it is officially considered
>``a misleading and wayward sect.''
> The last execution of a Bahai in Iran was in 1992 when Bahman Samandari, a
>leading community member, was put to death.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>=START= XMT: 16:21 Thu Feb 15 EXP: 6 :00 Sun Feb 18
>
>
> Iran militants disrupt memorial for leftist poet
> NICOSIA, Feb 15 (Reuter) - Iranian Moslem militants on Thursday disrupted a
>large memorial service held in a Tehran mosque for a leftist poet who died in
>exile last week, a witness told Reuters by telephone.
> ``The memorial for Siavash Kasraei had just started...when a group of young
>men burst into the mosque,'' an Iranian writer, who asked to remain anonymous,
>said from Tehran.
> ``One of them grabbed the microphone and said the group was from the
>Hizbollah. He attacked Kasraei as anti-Islamic and told everyone to go home,''
>he said.
> Hizbollah, literally ``party of God,'' in a domestic Iranian context refers
>to zealous Moslems who provide grass-root support to the government.
> ``There were a few scuffles, but most people left quickly to avoid
>confrontation,'' he added.
> The memorial, attended by hundreds of people including leading writers and
>poets, was a legal gathering advertised in advance in newspapers, he said.
> Another witness said police arrived as the scuffles were going on but did
>not make any arrests.
> ``Instead of throwing out the Hizbollah, they also told us to leave,'' said
>the witness, who requested anonimity.
> Hizbollah groups have increased their activity in the past year, holding
>marches and attacking bookshops and meetings for what they see as anti-Islamic
>tendencies.
> Kasraei died in Vienna, aged 69. He was a leading poet active in the
>opposition against the late shah of Iran Mohammad Reza Pahlavi.
> He left the country a few years after Iran's 1979 Islamic revolution.
> REUTER
>
>=END=
>
>y
>
>
>
=END=
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 15:40:48 +1300 (NZDT)
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
Subject: I swoon in their breeze
A friend who wishes to remain anonymous (a "b[blind]cc" recipient) wrote
that I'd be flamed for saying Baha'is are not pacifists. My ref:
Esselmont.
The friend also thinks it wise to be moderate here, and excessive in
studies. I agree.
The friend also asked
"Where is your poetry? ...Where are poems on trees?"
Poem on trees? How's this?
from: Feats of Association
4.
The summer trees
breathe and breathe
and are fragrant
of earth and air.
Greenly
reminded
of youth's promises,
I recall
the trees of farms and parks and places
remote and near,
rude
and civil.
Walking,
I swoon in their breeze,
caress their leaves.
Returning
I play
Verdi.
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 21:39:10 EST
Subject: Re: Ataturk
Dearest Cyberson,
I am aware of all the charges made by the esteemed Intellegencia
against Mustafa Kemal. I do not idolize him or anyone. Frankly, I am
not interested in the discussion of whose national leader did what.
I am hoping that we come to some sort of understanding of what our
roles in this world are in terms of enhancing greater spiritual
development. How can we use the same tools
of the society to infuse into it the spirit which we are asked to do?
To me that is more important issue to ponder upon than anything else.
I am sorry this discussion turned out to be something which I did not
anticipate. It is presumptous of anyone stating who understood what.
I stand by what I said earlier. It is okay to disagree with a
judgement of Authority, as an individual. With rights come
responsibilities and bearing the consequences of exercising those
rights as well. I can assure you that I had to bare many of them
without hiding behind the woods and without soldiers bearing arms on
my behalf in front of me. I am capable of fighting my own battles.
love,
quanta
****************************************
Random connections cause great creations.
****************************************
(919) 666-9999 U.S.A.
Call! if you dare
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 19:50:46 -0700 (MST)
From: Eric Indiogine
To: "Arsalan J. Sadighi"
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Agreeing with the House
Dear talisfriends:
I would very much appreciate some response to the following question:
[snip]
> "He is the Interpreter of the Word of God and after him will succeed the
> first-born of his lineal descendents."
> Will and Testament of Abdu'l-Baha
Do we know what this Word of God includes? Only the sacred canon of the
Faith (Writings of al-Bab, Baha'u'llah, and Abdul-Baha), or also previous
ones like the Quran and the Bible?
Thanks,
Eric Indiogine (sindiogi@nmsu.edu), Dept. Civil, Agricultural,
and Geological Engineering, New Mexico State University,
Las Cruces, New Mexico, U.S.A.
## True loss is for him whose days have been ##
## spent in utter ignorance of his self ##
-* Baha'u'llah, Words of Wisdom #21 *-
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 19:29 PST
To: robert.johnston@stonebow.otago.ac.nz (Robert Johnston)
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Re: I swoon in their breeze
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
>A friend who wishes to remain anonymous (a "b[blind]cc" recipient) wrote
>that I'd be flamed for saying Baha'is are not pacifists. My ref:
>Esselmont.
>
Baha'is are not pacifists. My ref: Shoghi Effendi
Burl
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer (ISBN# 1-56901-815-4)
May be ordered by any real bookstore. Accept no excuses. It doesn't have as
many pages as Polly Whitney's UNTIL THE END OF TIME and it is not in
paperback like DEAL BREAKER, but you will like it anyway. It is still only
$19.95 suggested retail. Order it!
********************************************************
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 23:11:04 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: re: laws of the Kitabi Adqas
Ahang :
I was willing to let the first post attributing to me the mind and
quality of a Covenant Breaker go by / It is the first time in my Bahai life
someone has asserted that i was engaged in an activity that constitued
Covenant Breaking . If you deny that I wil give you a lesson in the meaning
and use of words in the English language .
The second one in which you attempt to justify your speech to Arselan did
it . Your self -rightous assertion that you were the only at the House of
Worship during last springs Aqdas conference pushed me over the edge . I was
also there in three seperate occasions as was Suzanne Croisant . On one
occasion I drove Chris Buck , his wife and sons there as well .
AS for counter arguments they have already been made .
Knock this bullshit off ! ! If it is not clear I am ANGRY . And if
anyone is not clear as to why I am sensitive to the invoking of *Covenant
Talk * to silence and intimidate people NOW YOU KNOW .
I am going to do two things 1) keep your outrageous posts for the Omaha
Bahai archives.
2) Consult in the morning with the LSA about how to respond further .
Terry
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 20:08:33 -0800
To: talisman@indiana.edu
From: margreet@margreet.seanet.com (Marguerite K. Gipson)
Subject: Re: Revenge of the Daughters, part 2
Hello all, Baby sit?? who me?? These are two grown women... what ever
their choices are, they will be responsible... I want to get into my own
trouble... LOL LOL
Warmly,
Margreet..
who thinks she will be the only 'normal' one there... with no tattoos, no
nose rings, no pierced flesh,--only an extra earring in the upper ear--,
non-smoking.. very dull person, with her crocheting.... Gads, I can't wait...
At 03:11 PM 2/16/96 -0800, SFotos@eworld.com wrote:
>
>Did I hear you offer to baby-sit, Margreet?
>
>Sandy
>
>----------------------------- Begin Original Text
>-----------------------------
>
>
>I will behave, I promise...
>Margreet
>
>----------------------------- End Original Text -----------------------------
>
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 23:22:27 EST
Subject: Houses of Worship
Dearest friends,
First, some housekeeping.
Dearest and esteemed Juan,
The poem on pringles was intended to set a humorous tone to the
message. I have the most sincere and deep respect for you and
appreciation of the contribution to my well-being by your postings.
I ask for your forgiveness of any unintended injury.
Selamlar,
Quanta
*********
The issue of building local houses of worship is something I feel
supportive of as a result of my close association for twenty five
years with the Jehovah' Witnesses here. I also been attending Mormon
and Mennonite meetings and observe their community' life.
Mennonites do not own any property. However, JW were about the same
number as Baha'is in the early '70s with a little house called
Kingdom Hall where they invited people for worship. Today they have
many Kingdom Halls and large numbers of adherents.
One thing I noticed with them is that they don't seem to be
preoccupied with proclaiming their religion with bumper stickers and
t-shirts and other paraphernalia associated with them.
I would be interested in financial data of such enterprises in the
Baha'i community. How much money do we spend on t-shirts, bumper
stickers, posters and other teaching materials?
Why can't one wear one's religion smiling faces, rather than t-shirt
sleeves (pardon the pun). Why not use our resources for building
placers of worship? For twentythree years the first question people
asked of me is "do you have a place of worship here?" not,
"do you have a place where I can buy bumper stickers and t-shirts"
Something to think about!
love,
q.
****************************************
Random connections cause great creations.
****************************************
(919) 666-9999 U.S.A.
Call! if you dare
=END=
From: TLCULHANE@aol.com
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 23:28:15 -0500
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: FROM SUE
Ahang:
FROM YOUR MOST RECENT POST:
" I simply commented that to my understanding the legal basis to launch such
efforts was absent since the House of Justice had never permitted it."
No. Mr. Rabani, This is what you "simply commented"
"If the friends in Omaha or any other community insist on building
a *Mashriqu'l-Adhkar* without prior approval of the Universal
House of Justice, based on my understanding, they are in clear
violation of the Covenant."
Sue Culhane
=END=
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 96 00:30 EST
From: Dariush Lamie <0007368608@mcimail.com>
To: "talisman@indiana.edu"
Subject: A note to Terry
-- [ From: Dariush Lamie * EMC.Ver #2.3 ] --
Dearest Terry, Allah'u'abha
As a Baha'i, you are very dear to me and I am sure to our beloved Ahang's and
everyone else's too. I am sure that Ahang's posting did not mean to hurt you,
but just clarify more on the issue of Houses of Worships which I benefited from
it very much.
Sometimes electronic communication makes us wonder about someone else's
intentions. But, I can assure you that no one in Talisman has intention to hurt
anyone. I am sure you remember many Tablets of Baha'u'llah about this subject
such as Epistle to Son of Wolf, where He talks about the pure intentions of the
first Azan in Islam, or the Tablet of fasting and many more that you are
familiar with. I mean, intention is what counts and no one has any intention to
upset you.
So, as Baha'is everyone have an unconditional love toward you as well as every
one else.
With Loving Baha'i Greetings,
Dariush
=END=
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 96 00:32:35 EST
From: Richard Harmsen
To:
Subject: re: offense taken
Dear Baha'i friends:
It is my prayer that the Culhanes and other Oklahoma friends will
not be offended by Mr. Rabani's remark. In my opinion his remark
was a bit extreme but he did not accuse anyone of Covenant breaking.
He was just sharing his opinion. By all indications (and messages)
the Cause needs us to be more detached, less reactionary, and in any
case individual opinions have little meaning in the Cause, whereas your
assembly and the institutions, if we turn to them in these affairs,
will guide us though any and all such situations. No one thinks less
of you for what was said. Much is said, perhaps too much without
thought of how it would be interpreted, on this new technology.
Warmest Baha'i love and prayers for the success of
whatever the Oklahoma Assembly chooses to do.
Rick Harmsen, Big Rapids, MI
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 21:45 PST
To: TLCULHANE@aol.com
From: burlb@bmi.net (Burl Barer)
Subject: Sue me, Sue you Blues
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
>Terry and Sue are tweeked because someone said:
>>"If the friends in Omaha or any other community insist on building
>a *Mashriqu'l-Adhkar* without prior approval of the Universal
>House of Justice, based on my understanding, they are in clear
>violation of the Covenant."
>
Gee. Calm down Terry. It reads to me something like this:
IF prior approval by the UHJ is REQUIRED to build a M-A, and
IF a community INSISTS on building one WITHOUT REQUIRED UHJ approval,
then that community would be, to his understanding, in violation of the
rules and regs of the Covenant.
If those IFS are correct ifs, then he might be correct. If not, not.
Are those ifs correct? Is approval of the UHJ required prior to building a
M-A? Does anyone know?
curious Burl
*******************************************************
MAN OVERBOARD by Burl Barer (ISBN# 1-56901-815-4)
May be ordered by any real bookstore. Accept no excuses. It is still only
$19.95 suggested retail. Order it!
********************************************************
=END=
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 23:22:20 -0700 (MST)
From: "[G. Brent Poirier]"
To: Eric Indiogine
Cc: "Arsalan J. Sadighi" , talisman@indiana.edu
Subject: RE: Agreeing with the House
On Fri, 16 Feb 1996, Eric Indiogine wrote:
> Do we know what this Word of God includes? Only the sacred canon of the
> Faith (Writings of al-Bab, Baha'u'llah, and Abdul-Baha), or also previous
> ones like the Quran and the Bible?
I view it this way. Shoghi Effendi was not bashful about admitting the
areas in which he had no view (i.e. the Writings did not address it), and
he did not make conjectures in the dark.
Interpreting the Texts of the Bible and Qur'an was not one of these. Not
only does he write in God Passes By that Baha'u'llah fulfills this and
that prophecy; but in answer to many letters from believers, he
unhesitatingly interprets Bible verses. I posted on this last year, and
can look for the references, Enrico.
Similarly, Baha'u'llah writes in the Aqdas that 'Abdu'l-Baha is the
Interpreter of "The Book." Yet, later the Guardian writes that the Master
is the Interpreter of the Writings of the Bab and Baha'u'llah, and
recommends deference to the Master in matters related to the Bible. I
believe that this is a power shared by the Guardian. Since one Prophet is
spiritually the same as the others, if we take as a given that the
Guardian is the Interpreter of the Word of God, I assume that he is the
Interpreter of all of the Word, no matter which Divine Mouthpiece utters
it.
Your amigo
Brent
=END=
[end of 2/16/96 session]
Talisman emails received 2/17/96-2/19/96
------------------------------------------------------------
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 96 06:29:03 UT
From: "Hannah E. Reinstein"
To: "Talisman list - MSNINET"
Subject: Lesser Peace? Probably not
As a humble Microserf, I toil to make the world a better place as only
Microsoft can. In that spirit, I'd like to share this news with the list.
===========================
Microsoft Windows 95 Stuns World
Redmond, Wash (AP) - Fans and detractors of the long-awaited Microsoft
Windows 95 have been stunned and amazed by the incredible events
surrounding the August 24 release. Windows 95 has been hailed by industry
giant Pierson Holcombe Pewter as "the most advanced operating system ever
produced." But even he could not have predicted yesterday's events.
It began when peace was declared in Bosnia. Said Ahmad G'Hui,
spokesperson for the Serbs, "Now that [Windows 95] has been released, we
just don't see any reason to fight each other. This is an amazing
product."
Then France announced its intention to stop all testing of nuclear
weapons. "We used to think that our national boundaries were of utmost
import. To safeguard them, it was necessary to continue testing
[nuclear weapons]," said Jacques Fenetre of the French government.
"The Microsoft Network (tm) has changed all of that. It's such a small
planet!"
On the other side of the "small planet", George Bush and Saddam Hussein
met face-to-face for the first time. After a tense greeting, they
started sharing notes about their experiences as Windows 95 beta-testers.
Soon the two lifelong enemies were laughing and chatting like old friends.
In a startling display of candor, Hussein said "If I hadn't been so
frustrated with the beta, I'd have backed off from Kuwait much sooner."
Bush laughed and commiserated with Hussein, saying "Well, Saddam, I
*told* you it'd be released eventually, all you had to do was wait.
Hey! Let's play some FreeCell!"
Oil prices dropped as OPEC transferred their accounting software to the
new platform. Loggers in the United States' Pacific Northwest turned
their axes in for spades after seeing a Microsoft Video of spotted owls
using Windows 95. In an economic shocker, the Peso reversed its
downward spiral due to huge Windows 95 sales in Acapulco and Mexico
City.
On the health front, Hildegard Wicca, a housewife in Boston, MA, reports
that Windows 95 has removed her facial warts. "I sat down in front of
the computer, pressed 'Start', and felt something odd on my face. When
I looked in a mirror, my warts were gone!" Even more amazing is the
story of Mark Cense, the Los Alamos man who was reported last week as
having an incurable, fatal form of cancer. His doctors were amazed
yesterday when, after simply buying Windows 95 at the local Computer
Universe store, his cancer went into remission.
When asked for a comment on these almost miraculous events, Microsoft's
Bill Gates, recently declared to be the richest man in the United States,
replied "If you think *this* is good, just wait until you see Windows 97!"
Reports that China's release of dissident Harry Wu was contingent on his
returning with "as many copies of Windows 95 as he can carry" are
unconfirmed at this time.
---
Rob Freundlich, Senior Software Engineer
IDX Systems Corporation
======Lots of superfluous sig lines about Humor added by Hannah===========
"'Tis no extravagant arithmetic to say, that for every ten jokes, - thou
hast got an hundred enemies; and till thou hast gone on, and raised a swarm
of wasps about thine ears, and art half stung to death by them, thou wilt
never be convinced it is so."
Laurence Sterne (1713-1768), English author. Tristram Shandy, bk. 1, ch. 12
(1760).
"All human race would fain be wits.
And millions miss, for one that hits."
Jonathan Swift (1667-1745), Anglo-Irish satirist. On Poetry: A Rhapsody.
"My way of joking is to tell the truth. It's the funniest joke in the world."
George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950), Anglo-Irish playwright, critic. Keegan, in
John Bull's Other Island, act 2.
=END=
From: "QUANTA DAWNLIGHT"
To: talisman@indiana.edu
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 08:09:21 EST
Subject: (poem)cell-aberration!
CELL-ABERRATION!
I wonder what's going on?
Cells of humanity are
in aberration!
I cry and cry.
Goodness gracious,
it's finally
getting them now,
for putting God on sale
in thousands of years,
for celebrations.
Yes! ladies and gentlemen,
"come on down"
"we got the right one baby! "
"let's make a deal"
"God is love, I save you!"
"how much do you want?"
"it is this way please"
to the gates of Heaven
where you shall be served.
The sale is on,
like the TV Guide,
forever and ever.
No! I think
it's like the
grocery stores,
selling spiritual goodies.
Our food is natural,
grown organically.
Free of pesticides,
willn't hurt your tummy.
I put God's face,
on my t-shirt,
his Words,
on my posters,
with slogans on bumpers.
Or, even I write a book.
Now that's a good thought.
Wait a minute,
did God not write one already?
SHHSHHH! no competition please!
People are dumm,
know not what they're reading.
People liked these though,
Gee, I thought
I can make some money
and put God on sale,
on reduced prices.
That'll make some profits.
Pardon the pun please.
I tell you
what's going on.
I was there last week,
Boy, they got some
really good music.
Okay, that's it.
I can't go on,
you get the picture,
end of the story.
Just writing it
makes the spirit sick!
LOVE makes the hearts so fond!
Money makes the world go ....?.
It spinns our heads 'round
we all fall down.
_Quanta Dawn-Light
*******************************************
Random connections cause great formations.
*******************************************
=END=
From: Ahmad Aniss
Subject: Re: You Dare Me?!
To: asadighi@ptialaska.net (Arsalan J. Sadighi)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 00:50:39 +1100 (EST)
Cc: talisman@indiana.edu
Dear Arsalan,
Dear talismanians,
I did not dare but dear Arsalan, didn't you notice the 6's and 9's
and didn't I worn you that it either will connect to a Vampir's
castle or a house of worship. no wonder You could not be connected.
But don't dispare may be you should try again. I am sure some one
out there will respond to your calls.
With regards,
Ahmad.
>
> I called and got no answer. What is this, a joke or somethin'? I thought we
> never ever joked on this blessed forum.
>
> >
> >
> >
> >****************************************
> >Random connections cause great creations.
> >****************************************
> >(919) 666-9999 U.S.A.
> >Call! if you dare
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Arsalan J. Sadighi
>
>
> "Things are never quite as scary when you've got a best friend."
>
> Calvin and Hobbes
>
>
_______________________________________________________________________
^ ^
^ Dr. A.M. Aniss, Tel: Home [61(2)] 505 509 ^
^ Bio-Medical Engineer, Work [61(2)] 694 5915 ^
^ Neuropsychiatric Institute, Mobile 019 992020 ^
^ Prince Henry Hospital, Fax: Work [61(2)] 694 5747 ^
^ Little Bay, N.S.W. 2036, ^
^ Australia. Email: A.Aniss@unsw.edu.au ^
^_______________________________________________________________________^
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 17:03:40 PST
Subject: Re: Dr. Burl
To: belove@sover.net, Carmen Mathenge , talisman@indiana.edu,
748-9178@mcimail.com
On Fri, 16 Feb 1996 09:48:34 -0800 Carmen Mathenge wrote:
>Dear Philip,
>
>>It appears that Mark did not catch the subliminal message in
>>eisegesis and, poor fellow, is now speaking to me as a
>>hermeneutician.
>>
>>This has something to do with cosmotology, right?
>
>Or is it cosmology? (I think one is my hairstylist, and the other
my Mary
>Kay consultant, but which is which?)
>
>:-D
>
>Carmen
>
>
The one that Einstein had was the one you are thinking of, I believe.
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 02/16/96
Time: 17:03:40
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 17:07:30 PST
Subject: Re: FW: Men are Shallow
To: Talisman
On Fri, 16 Feb 1996 12:32:11 -0600 (CST) Richard C. Logan wrote:
>>When a man starts in the conversation about what he wants in a
mate, he goes
>>for the physical attraction,... Do I care what my mate looks like?
NO,
>>because in my prayers, I ask God to send one who is attractive to
me.
>>Meaning that I am the only women he has to be 'attractive' too... I
don't
>>give a rip if other women think my man is 'ugly' just as long as I
find him
>>'attractive'... And any man who 'dogs' us women because we don't
fit the
>>'image he wants' deserves to be 'bashed', smashed, and just plain
choked.
>>I could get nasty, but I am a lady...
>>
>>Had it with shallow men... God, give me some with some substance
to hang
>>on to....
The obsession of men hunting for mates for women with "looks" is
probably mirrored by an equivalent obsession of women hunting for
mates.
I suspect it has to do with the areas in which men are severely
sanctioned should they fail. Men are to show themselves as capable of
protecting women and children (if necessary unto the point of their
own death) and also of supporting them and providing for them. The
cultural sanctions in this direction are as powerful as those asking
women to be good looking.
Just as men drop women who they think are not attractive, women drop
men whom they think are not solvent or financially capable. Just as
men are attracted to women who are "good looking," women are
attracted to men who seem to be "good providers."
Men who are not "good providers" are held in contempt often by both
men and women.
And finally, even among people who are not so obsessed by the crazy
dimension of these values, there is a moderate expression of these
values that is still required. The requirements that a woman be
"good looking," are generally met when a woman shows a capacity to
care for her self as demonstrated by good eating and grooming habits
and an ability to select clothes and hair styles the are appropriate
and flattering. For men, it is probably reasonable to expect that
they can keep a job, work hard, and be honest.
Philip
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 02/16/96
Time: 17:07:30
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A.
Einstein
=END=
From: belove@sover.net
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 12:13:59 PST
Subject: Re: FW: Men are Shallow
To: belove@sover.net, talisman@indiana.edu,
"Marguerite K. Gipson"
We move in this conversation from saying "we never said men are
jerks" to saying "he deserves to be 'bashed,' 'smashed, and just
plain choked. I could get nasty but I'm a lady."
This is a good clear statement. We can work with this.
I imagine there is a considerable amount of anger between men and
women these days. God knows I have a small list of my own, females
for whom I have yet to devise an appropriate response.. I hope it is
not presumptuous for me to conclude it is any different with you.
But, Marguerite, this encounter between us has moved forward.I really
don't care much for discussions that don't go beyond pieties and
platitudes. Clearly we won't have that to worry about anymore.
So much male vs female anger is hidden that it emerges only in
action. I think there is a lot to talk about.
I believe that the sediment from which the gold is mined is usually a
nasty, ugly, politically incorrect sentiment. Not that the ugly stuff
the Whole Truth. Far from it. But rather it is clearly deeply honest.
Always a difficult enough place to find. And the best place from
which to start.
Well, Marguerite, you have made me revise my position. I guess I'm
not against male bashing after all. I am only against it when it
parades as analysis and advice. At a certain stage in the
conversation, the pure form is quite acceptable to me. It means I can
trust that you know -- and I can know -- where, in part, you are
coming from.
I have only been damaged by women who were not only enraged, but who
also pretended to self righteousness and innocence. These women were
dangerous.
I've also worked with violent men and I've worked with my own angers.
I do think pretentiousness is always dangerous.
Philip
On Fri, 16 Feb 1996 08:55:40 -0800 Marguerite K. Gipson wrote:
>Phil.. we never said men are jerks... We just said 'shallow' or at
least I
>did..
>When a man starts in the conversation about what he wants in a mate,
he goes
>for the physical attraction,... Do I care what my mate looks like?
NO,
>because in my prayers, I ask God to send one who is attractive to
me.
>Meaning that I am the only women he has to be 'attractive' too... I
don't
>give a rip if other women think my man is 'ugly' just as long as I
find him
>'attractive'... And any man who 'dogs' us women because we don't
fit the
>'image he wants' deserves to be 'bashed', smashed, and just plain
choked.
>I could get nasty, but I am a lady...
>
>Had it with shallow men... God, give me some with some substance
to hang
>on to....
>
>
>Margreet
>
>
>At 06:56 PM 2/15/96 PST, belove@sover.net wrote:
>>This is outrageous men bashing and only fractionally true.
>
-------------------------------------
Name: Philip Belove
E-mail: belove@sover.net
Date: 02/16/96
Time: 12:13:59
This message was sent by Chameleon
-------------------------------------
Things should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler -- A. Einstein
=END=
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 96 08:22:01 -0500
From: "Ahang Rabbani"