One was reminded of some kind of altar-boy mafia.
Some people there are genuinely helpful and others openly
hostile and even malicious. In the four or more years
I've been surfing I have yet to meet such a collection of individuals who not
only style themselves as polymaths but as self-appointed guardians of
common sense and/or science, but when you read their postings (in that
forum and others) one is firstly struck by the distinct lack of debate
and the depths of sarcasm and insult employed.
Postings from other users
speak of abuse by a number of these regulars and these are worth reading
to let you know who the personalities are.
Whilst seeking data from this source (especially in respect of electrolysed water as a reactive load, and the consequences thereof) I received a number of e-mails (many carrying viruses, trojans and the like) from individuals purporting to have detailed knowledge of Stan Meyer and his allegedly unscrupulous methods, the vast majority of which failed to even deliver. Quite frankly, I began to resolve that the best thing to do was avoid these tossers altogether. Perhaps it's a purely American phenomenon, I don't know.
A message was passed to me from another contact, this is set out below;
>In a message dated 11/14/00 2:47:58 AM Pacific Standard Time,A brief reply to this was answered, from different addresses, with a number of incomprehensible messages with attachments all sent within minutes of each other. The attachments proved to be a hackers tool known as bo2k. There were three variants; a 417kb version, a 468kb raw zipfile and a bo2k_1_0 1.275Mb version (fortunately I don't have to worry about such things, the above details being provided by another, whose job it is).
>Mäkelädrmessuah@yahoo.com writes:> > Hi!
> > I am from Finland and I have studied things about
> Meyers cell and I have build cell also but it didn't
> work!!!
I can only conclude that the sender of the e-mail was also the sender of the bo2k. I'm reliably informed, and tend to agree having viewed the postings myself, that the author and sender is most definitely a regular visitor to sci.energy.hydrogen (one of the self-proclaimed 'rational' ones!).
It's a shame really because I never really envisaged getting involved with this whole Stan business again but it appears that there are some who are intent on dragging me back.
Surely, if Stan was a crackpot (as must be his devotees) why waste time even bothering with such 'riff-raff'. By employing such methods surely these 'guardians' of common sense are undermining their own positons, but perhaps they don't have the common sense to even see that. It's a shame since some contributors do have a lot to offer. Now please, you self-styled, self-acclaimed polymaths, why don't you go back to teen chat, from whence you came and leave the rest of us alone. Or at least be man enough to identify yourselves and the reasons for your very silly methods.
It would be nice if even the self-proclaimed authorities could agree on methods, causes, approaches, etc, but apparently they cannot. My advice; take a look but leave them alone, they're happy. Or is it a case of 'Let me be thy mirror', as Casca said to Brutus.
Some, at this forum, could certainly do with a trip to Techniquest in Cardiff where the frequent loud 'pop' of a 'rocket' effectively presents an alternative to arguments over water vapour content (Browns gas).
22/11/2000 Since posting the URL for this page at sci... a number of replies have been received extracts from some of which are included below.
"...its just like chatrooms. By procrastinating they keep you online longer giving them more time to go thru your hard-drive. Quite a few have businesses or have published books, maybe this is how they get their ideas and why they spend so much time surfing these channels. If they can make a buck they wont give a shit... Clicking on their websites can download these programs just as easily... post this and watch the protestations of innocence... be prepared for the hatred cos youre taking their business away...I knew most of this anyway, but thanks Mike.
Mike"
"... one is reminded of a professor, whose fee was immense... who attempted the problem using Kirchoff, failed, and then went on to prove that Ohms law didn't work. He's dead now and nobody misses him... the apprentice who solved the problem has done very well...I've come across this phenomenon too.
Dave"
"... definitely a heavily-defended bastion for the sad, lonely, embittered, bickering, white, middle-aged, middle-class male who but for a fatal weakness cannot eschew the keyboard to find a woman, or for that matter a man. Meet 'em everywhere...I suppose we could do a head count, including blacks and the disabled, because I know of one engineer (a stroke victim) who claimed to have been vilified for his keyboard technique.
Sue"
"... one guy, XXXXXXXX, claimed to know a lot about Einstein, but when I asked him about the new stuff about a variable c (getting rid of the inflation problem) he got very angry and started badmouthing youth. What an idiot... Einstein hit the jackpot when he was 25 (when most people peak intellectually) and these guys are nearing retirement. Isn't it time they got out of the way... but his still there putting on his airs and graces and coming out with all sorts of crap...I was always struck by our having not only values for permittivity, permeability and matter equivalence for free space but why Maxwells ether was so unattractive, especially after Einstein had no alternative but to introduce delta g, but my so-called seniors insisted that since an ether was undetectable it couldn't exist. I think most of them are dead now, and I don't think anybody misses them.
Alun"
"... what is most annoying is they way this 'altar-boy mafia'... gang up on others insulting them without even giving room for the arguments to be heard... What are they afraid of?... new ideas never hurt anybody except those who refuse to consider them...
Alice"
"... and I don't know why but I sometimes get the impression that some users are attending the forum with multiple identities giving rise to the impression of greater numbers to the opposition...I think Gerry's proved that for us.
Lal"
"... their vested interests are threatened so braying like this increases the noise levels so that the newer, better, brighter views will not be heard (they hope)...
Pete"
"... those they can milk they'll leave alone, building a base of confidence, those they don't want they'll ignore, those they don't like or fear, they'll attack... To openly gloat is either arrogant or over-confident but obviously was an error... someone's got too cocky because they've been doing it for so long... they've given up caring...
Alan"
"... some are very keen and eager to point out their experience and qualifications, but whilst accepting that Faraday had no qualifications in electronics, etc they fail to see that they will never have the social impact that he did... ok so someone wrote an obscure paper on filters years ago but any decent university library has hundreds, if not thousands of books on filters... exactly who reads them? Nobody I know..."
Tony"
28/11/2000 To date 157 garbled and (some) insulting e-mails received unrelated to any normally expected internet activity. Someone's been busy. They don't appear to realise that it is quicker for me to delete them than it is for them to compose and send them.
29/11/00
".....killfile him (Nice terminology, please note folks).Posted by (Ooops) Walter Curnow (walter_curnow@my-deja.com), sci.energ...Gerry (Schneider, originator of 'Finnish' e-mail), Paul Kemble is the same person as "criton", or at least they post through the same news server using computers with the same software (UWIC, where I usually post from [no secret] has, I believe, some 20,000 or more other users. I must be all of them) and both just happened to show up here at the same time. And you saw how devoid of content critons posts were. Kembles are worse (So are they really the same guy?).
Anyway, a visit to the above web page shows this guy is seriously delusional. Not only does he post under multiple names here (while accusing others of the same), he also accuses the regulars here of emailing viruses to somebody in response to something that that person never posted here. (Nor does it appear that that person even exists.(Does this make sense?)) If this virus mailer really existed, Kemble would post the complete headers from the offending email and maybe he'd get a little help tracking down the source (Perhaps it's easier and quicker to click 'delete'). But with most things surrounding free energy nuts, things have to be supersecret, and empty accusations and innuendo rule (Look again, Walter, sure you're looking at the right web-site).
Now in lieu of posting here using additional sock puppets, Kemble/criton is now making up letters to himself and posting them on his web site to support his delusion that there are sinister forces here out to suppress innovative technology -- probably the same sinister forces that vanquished Stanley Meyer (Where have I ever made such a claim?). I look forward to watching the development of his web site. It's already pretty entertaining.
I've submitted his web site to CrankNet. They've got "cranky", "crankiest", and "illucid" categories. I'll see if they want to create a "delusional" category especially for Mr. Kemble."
Thank you for proving my point Walter, after all how can you afford to waste so much time on someone who is so 'delusional', and isn't it just a little cranky to keep tabs on the 'cranks'? ...now here's a link to Walters Crank Dot Net: cranks on the net and a link to one of mine.
6/12/00 Nothing, except usual background noise. Either someone reads my web pages or they DID use seawater.
8/12/00 Posted by JB, sci.energ...
"@#&%@#*^ Piss Off Useless Hacking #$%@sI suppose that Walter will claim this to be one of my postings, though I have noticed a few people coming out of the woodwork lately.Rest of you guys,
Check your outlook express(or equiv.) with windows explorer(or eqiuv) to see if the modification dates on any of your files look right. I had trojan problems that I thought were wiped off a while ago.
BUT revised exe. code placed within my mail program itself has devastated all my efforts of the past 6 months or more.HATE to sound like a FEARMONGER - but the truth is - I'm crying "wolf"."
8/1/01, sci.ener...
"I've been lurking this newsgroup for some time, and made a single post a long time back to "test the waters". Quite frankly, this newsgroup is filled with pompous declarations of proposed professionalism, and little else.Another one of mine, Walter? Get a life, or a woman... or a man.Don't you people have better thigs to do (actually working with hydrogen?) than flame each other and toss back and forth the age old "scholar" vs "commoner" conflict?
There isn't really another similarily suited forum for serious discussion about hydrogen-based energy sources. So why are you wasting time professing how much you know and in-fighting to impose some sort of hierarchy (so common in newsgroups, and the boon of them all)?
- respectfully but dissapointed, Raphael CCorsoski"
(Nice one, Raphael)
21/1/01
"Pardon me for butting in on an incipient flame war, but this is a very interesting, and essential question, Mr. Spence.Posted by David Rodgers, 'The Patent', sci.ener...In my amateur opinion:
One who is delusional, and by definition can therefore be seen as mad by a majority of "rational humans", is not themselves a liar, since the deluded thoroughly believe what they say, believe themselves to be promoting the truth, and do not intend to deceive. However, their continuing promotion of untruths as truth, in opposition to a consensus present or future, put them at risk of being labeled as peddlers of lies.
Perhaps the veracity of the agent is independent of the statement, while the the veracity of the statement speaks for itself. E.g. I may earnestly believe in the flatness of the earth; but if I teach it, in opposition to the consensus of many reasonable persons; I myself may not be a liar; but my information IS nevertheless falsehood presented as truth, and is therefore itself a lie.
However, history has shown many instances in which the consensus has been wrong, and also to be repellent of new reason. E.g. "The sun and other stars orbit the earth, as we all know, Sr. Gallileo; so kindly repeat your deductions again for the benefit of this inquisition."
So if a falsehood is believed by the majority, or is only believed by one individual, seems to have no bearing as to whether or not an assertion is false. Since teaching what is false as the truth has the same effect on the innocent as premeditated deceit, it is still lying, even though it is ignorant and not deliberate.
I suppose any scientific assertion must not only reconcile itself to all those that have gone before, but must also admit to and welcome the possibility of being overturned by future science in order to avoid lying.
Were physicists of 4th century Athens lying? Not when they were alive maybe, but in the hindsight of Newton, Faraday, Maxwell, Einstein, Bohr, Heisenberg et al they were!
Go figure.
DCR"
25/1/01 Spam with recognizable return e-mail URLs, etc. "Here comes the rain again..."
Somehow I'm attracted by the amount of trouble a dead (and indefensible) man can cause, otherwise I would have dropped the whole thing ages ago.
It's their very aggravation that keeps it alive.
Back to Stan.
Those who may be interested in anonymous e-mailing might like to consider a remailer service such as gilc. These can take hours to get through, or even not at all. A 'look up' service such as whois can provide an IP location, and if you require secure e-mail content try hushmail. Strong encryption can be obtained from pgpi.