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Subject: Microsoft want to own the internet (#1)
Date: Jun 29, 2002, 07:46PM
Sorry, I just had to post this, as this is quite possibly the most disgusting thing I've ever heard. I've been reading up on it all week, and now I've got some time on my hand I thought I might write up about it so that all of you people who don't read The Register and Slashdot can hear about the Beast's latest scheme. I thought this was probably the most relevant forum since it concerns everyone who uses a computer, but feel free to put it wherever. I would just like some of this to be known by the masses.

And for those of you who are afraid of long posts: ignore this at your peril. I would also like to see what your reaction to this is.

Earlier this week, Microsoft outlined their plans for their next generation of operting systems, codenamed Longhorn/Palladium. Among the features touted was the "secure networking" functions that OS would offer.

Firstly:
Microsoft plans to implement Palladium DRM (digital rights management) in a hardware chip, initially implanted on the mobo, but later on embedded in the CPU, and employing hardwired encryption throughout. The purpose of this is to flag every file on the computer with a digital signature telling a remote server what it is. If it's an unauthorised file, the remote server will tell your computer not to let you execute it.

This is basically an attempt to stop the trading of mp3's and/or warez.

Secondly:
Before an application can run, it too must have a digital signature remotely verified by another server. If the program binary doesn't match with any of the authenticated binaries, your computer won't run it. This, again, is meant to stop your computer running "unauthorised" software - which might be warez, or it might just be a nifty freewrae program that the authors acn't afford to have certified. Microsoft will be able to control exactly what your computer can and can't run.

Thirdly:
As most of you know, Microsoft employ a strategy of making their software deliberately obsolete - they make it forwrd compatible, but not backward compatible. With the laws of the DMCA, it will soon be illegal to try to make a software product that is compatible with another programs file types (for example, take the many office applications there are for Linux which have had some success in translating their arcane file formats).
This has the effect of killing any competition in the water - since you're not allowed to make your new product compatible with any of the others, no-one will use it. And eventually people will give up using any of the others instead, since no-one else can read their documents. So the entire world will be left with one choice only for software - Microsoft.

Fourthly (I don't know if that's a word, but it should be):
Palladium will effectively ban free software, not just free stuff for Windows platforms, but free stuff for Linux, Mac, in fact every OS that runs on a Palladium enabled motherboard/processor. Why?
In order to get the program to run on a palladium platform, you will need to pay to have your binary certified as "safe" by Microsoft's software authentification branch. And who in their right mind is going to pay for a piece of software they spent hours working on? It just wouldn't be worth it.

It gets worse when it comes to open source projects, such as Linux and BSD. Those of you who know about these things will know that open source projects are created by freelance coders all over the world who create programs in their spare time and then give them to the rest of the world for free. Many of them also release the source code for free too, so that if you wish you can alter the program (such as to fix bugs, add features etc).
Now, it would be bad enough if the owner has to pay a certification fee. But EVERY CHANGE that is made to the source code will require a new, seperate certificate to be created. Those of you who use Linux will know that so many things get updated so quickly, that this just isn't practical, and would cost the open source developement people millions of dollars. This is money they just don't have, and Microsoft knows it.

Fifthly:
The "secure network". This is the real clincher for Palladium. At first, they're going to make it so that it is possible to turn Palladium off at the hardware level. But it is created in such a way so that, if you try to connect to a Palladium web server, you won't be allowed to. Palladium machines will only be able to talk to other Palladium machines, and non-Palladium machines won't be able to talk to any Palladium machines.
Hence, if Palladium reaches critical mass, there will be thousands of people the world over who won't be able to access the internet or even work on a network with Palladium machines, so by extension they will be forced to "upgrade" to Palladium machines.

Sixthly:
At first I thought: what the hell, this is only going to apply to x86 architecture (namely Athlon and Pentium chips, since it's only AMD and Intel who are involved at the moment). So, I could try another hardware architecture: such as the Mac/PPC, or the Sun Sparc, or an ARM, or any other kind of processor.
But then I realside that even if I did, I wouldn't be able to access the "Palladium network" which could encompass the entire internet if this concept goes far enough. So all you Mac users would be effectively locked out; you too would have adopt a Palladium machine if you wanted your computer to actually do anything.

Seventhly:
Palladium will enable all your documents to be controlled remotely. No, this is not a joke. If Microsoft find you are using an outdated version of Office, all they need to do is send a message to your computer and it will no longer let you read any of your documents that were created with that application.
Even more sinister is that if Microsoft take offence at any of the documents on your machine (this could be porn, it could be a simple document containing DeCSS information or anti-Palladium information) then they can delete or alter it not just from your PC but from every other Palladium PC on the network.
This has a remarkable similarity to the "Ministry of Truth" in George Orwell's "1984" where the government continually faked information, both new and old, the entire country over to make themsleves appear "correct" all the time.


If Palladium ever becomes widespread enough, the internet as we know it today will be dead. Instead of being controlled by us, it will be controlled by Microsoft, and you will have no choice to do exectly what they say.

Hence why I want to tell as many people about this atrocious idea before it become spopular, and M$ administer their miraculous spin to it to make it sound like the best thing since sliced bread.


Darn, I forgot to post the links explaining about it. I'll also put up a few emails from some mailing lists me and my friends are members of.

Initial outline of Palladium [link]

Analysis on how Palladium is solely designed to protect IT businesses such as Microsoft [link]

The Palladium FAQ [link]

How Palladium has the potential to eradicate Linux [link]

======================================

The following is an excerpt from an email by "Lucky Green" one of the worlds most renowned cryptography hackers:

[Minor plug: I am scheduled to give a talk on TCPA at this year's DEF CON security conference. I promise it will be an interesting talk. [link] ]

Below are two more additional TCPA plays that I am in a position to mention:

1) Permanently lock out competitors from your file formats.

- From Steven Levy's article:
"A more interesting possibility is that Palladium could help introduce DRM to business and just plain people. It's a funny thing," says Bill Gates. "We came at this thinking about music, but then we realized that e-mail and documents were far more interesting domains."

Here it is why it is a more interesting possibility to Microsoft for Palladium to help introduce DRM to business and "just plain people" than to solely utilize DRM to prevent copying of digital entertainment content:

It is true that Microsoft, Intel, and other key TCPA members consider DRM an enabler of the PC as the hub of the future home entertainment network. As Ross pointed out, by adding DRM to the platform, Microsoft
and Intel, are able to grow the market for the platform.

However, this alone does little to enhance Microsoft's already sizable existing core business. As Bill Gates stated, Microsoft plans to wrap their entire set of file formats with DRM. How does this help Microsoft's core business? Very simple: enabling DRM for MS Word
documents makes it illegal under the DMCA to create competing software that can read or otherwise process the application's file format without the application vendor's permission.

Future maintainers of open source office suites will be faced with a very simple choice: don't enable the software to read Microsoft's file formats or go to jail. Anyone who doubts that such a thing could happen
is encouraged to familiarize themselves with the case of Dmitry Skylarov, who was arrested after last year's DEF CON conference for creating software that permitted processing of a DRM- wrapped document
file format.

Permanently locking out competition is a feature that of course does not just appeal to Microsoft alone. A great many dominant application vendors are looking forward to locking out their competition. The beauty of this play is that the application vendors themselves never need to make that call to the FBI themselves and incur the resultant backlash from the public that Adobe experienced in the Skylarov case. The content
providers or some of those utilizing the ubiquitously supported DRM features will eagerly make that call instead.

In one fell swoop, application vendors, such as Microsoft and many others, create a situation in which the full force of the U.S. judicial system can be brought to bear on anyone attempting to compete with a
dominant application vendor. This is one of the several ways in which TCPA enables stifling competition.

The above is one of the near to medium objectives the TCPA helps meet. [The short-term core application objective is of course to ensure payment for any and all copies of your application out there]. Below is a mid to long term objective:

2) Lock documents to application licensing

As the Levy article mentions, Palladium will permit the creation of documents with a given lifetime. This feature by necessity requires a secure clock, not just at the desktop of the creator of the document, but also on the desktops of all parties that might in the future read
such documents. Since PC's do not ship with secure clocks that the owner of the PC is unable to alter and since the TCPA's specs do not mandate such an expensive hardware solution, any implementation of limited lifetime documents must by necessity obtain the time elsewhere. The obvious source for secure time is a TPM authenticated time server that distributes the time over the Internet.

In other words, Palladium and other TCPA-based applications will require at least occasional Internet access to operate. It is during such mandatory Internet access that licensing-related information will be pushed to the desktop. One such set of information would be blacklists of widely-distributed pirated copies of application software (you don't need TCPA for this feature if the user downloads and installs periodic software updates, but the user may choose to live with
application bugs that are fixed in the update rather than see her unpaid software disabled).

With TCPA and DRM on all documents, the application vendor's powers increase vastly: the application vendor can now not just invalidate copies of applications for failure to pay ongoing licensing fees, but can invalidate all documents that were ever created with the help of
this application. Regardless how widely the documents may have been distributed or on who's computer the documents may reside at present.

Furthermore, this feature enables world-wide remote invalidation of a document file for reasons other than failure to pay ongoing licensing fees to the application vendor. To give just one example, documents can
be remotely invalidated pursuant to a court order, as might be given if the author of the document were to distribute DeCSS v3 or Scientology scriptures in the future DRM protected format. All that is required to
perform such an administrative invalidation of a document is either a sample copy of the document from which one can obtain its globally unique ID, the serial number of the application that created the document, or the public key of the person who licensed the application. (Other ways to exist but are omitted in the interest of brevity).

- --Lucky Green


And another...

======================================

JUNE 27, 2002
I Told You So
Alas, a Couple of Bob's Dire Predictions Have Come True

By Robert X. Cringely

Just over three years ago I wrote a column titled "Cooking the Books: How Clever Accounting Techniques are Used to Make Internet Millionaires." It explained how telecom companies were using accounting tricks to create revenue where there really was none. Take another look at the column (it's among the links on the "I Like It" page), and think of Worldcom with its recently revealed $3.7 billion in hidden expenses. Then last August, I wrote a column titled "The Death of TCP/IP: Why the Age of Internet Innocence is Over." Take a look at that column, too, and think about Microsoft's just-revealed project called Palladium.

The end is near.

Sometimes I'd rather be wrong, but it's a no-brainer to guess that accountancy, which has apparently become something of an art form or interpretive dance, could have a dark side. And you'll never lose money betting for Microsoft and against Microsoft's competitors and customers.

Let's concentrate on the Microsoft story. Last August, I wrote of a rumor that Microsoft wanted to replace TCP/IP with a proprietary protocol -- a protocol owned by Microsoft -- that it would tout as being more secure. Actually, the new protocol would likely be TCP/IP with some of the reserved fields used as pointers to proprietary extensions, quite similar to Vines IP, if you remember that product from Banyan Systems. I called it TCP/MS in the column. How do you push for the acceptance of such a protocol? First, make the old one unworkable by placing millions of exploitable TCP/IP
stacks out on the Net, ready-to-use by any teenage sociopath. When the Net slows or crashes, the blame would not be assigned to Microsoft. Then ship the new protocol with every new copy of Windows, and install it with every Windows Update over the Internet. Zero to 100 million copies could happen in less than a year.

This week, Microsoft announced Palladium through an exclusive story in Newsweek written by Steven Levy, who ought to have known better. Palladium is the code name for a Microsoft project to make all Internet communication safer by essentially pasting a digital certificate on every application, message, byte, and machine on the Net, then encrypting the data EVEN INSIDE YOUR COMPUTER PROCESSOR. Palladium compatible hardware (presumably chipsets and motherboards) will come from both AMD and Intel, and the software will, of course, come from Microsoft. That software is what I had dubbed TCP/MS.

The point of all this is simple. It may actually make the Internet somewhat safer. But the real purpose of this stuff, I fear, is to take technology owned by nobody (TCP/IP) and replace it with technology owned by Redmond. That's taking the Internet and turning it into MSN. Oh, and we'll all have to buy new computers.

This is diabolical. If Microsoft is successful, Palladium will give Bill Gates a piece of every transaction of any type while at the same time marginalizing the work of any competitor who doesn't choose to be Palladium-compliant. So much for Linux and Open Source, but it goes even further than that. So much for Apple and the Macintosh. It's a militarized network architecture only Dick Cheney could love.

Ironically, Microsoft says they will reveal Palladium's source code, which is little more than a head feint toward the Open Source movement. Nobody at Microsoft is saying anything about giving the ownership of that source code away or of allowing just anyone to change it.

Under Palladium as I understand it, the Internet goes from being ours to being theirs. The very data on your hard drive ceases to be yours because it could self-destruct at any time. We'll end up paying rent to use our own data!

Can you tell I think this is a bad idea?

What bothers me the most about it is not just that we are being sold a bill of goods by the very outfit responsible for making possible most current Internet security problems. "The world is a fearful place because we allowed it to be by introducing vulnerable designs followed by clueless security initiatives) so let us fix it for you." Yeah, right. Yet Palladium has a very real chance of succeeding.

How long until only code signed by Microsoft will be allowed to run on the platform? It seems that Microsoft is trying to implement a system that will enable them, once and for all, to charge game console-like royalties to software developers.

But how will this stop the "I just e-mailed you a virus" problem? How does this stop my personal information being sucked out of my PC using cookies? It won't. Solving those particular problems is not Palladium's real
purpose, which is to increase Microsoft's market share. It is a marketing concept that will be sold as the solution to a problem. It won't really work.

Let's understand here that not all Microsoft products are bad and many are very good. Those products serve real customer needs and do so with genuine purpose, not marketing artifice. But Palladium isn't that way at all. This is NOT about making things better for the user. This is about removing the ability for the end user to make decisions about how his or her computer functions. It is an effort by Microsoft to take literal ownership of Internet technology, Microsoft's "embrace and extend" strategy applied for the Nth time, though on a grander scale than we've ever seen before. While
there is some doubt that the PC will survive a decade from now as a product category, nobody is suggesting the Internet will do anything but grow and grow over that time. Palladium assures that whatever hardware is running on the network of 10 years from now, it will be generating revenue for Microsoft. There is nothing wrong with Microsoft having a survival strategy, but plenty wrong with presenting it as some big favor they are doing for us and for the world.

What's saddest about this story is that it could be positive. The world is a dangerous place and finding ways to make people responsible for what they do on the Net is probably good, not bad. I just don't think we have the right people on the job.

======================================

All those in favour of losing your right to use a computer with YOUR data owned by YOU please do nothing.

"Those who are willing to lose some of their essential liberties in favour of security deserve neither and will lose both"
--One of the USA's founding fathers (sorry, I forget the name, but it's a great quote)

P.S. If anyone made it his far, a response would be great...

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#2)
Date: Jun 29, 2002, 07:52PM
I lost interest very quickly. My apologies. :O (Eek)

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#3)
Date: Jun 29, 2002, 08:08PM
I got interested too late

sorry


=) (Smile)

rofl



=) (Smile)


anyway.. linux still lives =) (Smile)

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#4)
Date: Jun 29, 2002, 08:38PM
i started reading, and then i checked for a source.

WHERES THE SOURCE?*!@#!@#

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#5)
Date: Jun 29, 2002, 08:47PM
Source:

[link]

[link]

[link]

[link]

[link]

It was in the text, but a bit of the way down, cos I forgot to put it at the top. Sometimes I treat this computer like a typewriter.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#6)
Date: Jun 30, 2002, 02:10AM
They said hardware dongles were uncrackable and would wipe out piracy of high-end programs too. Same for WinXP and its authentication system. Both were cracked as soon as (or before) they came out. I doubt Palladium, if it ever gains a foothold, will bother experienced PC users.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#7)
Date: Jun 30, 2002, 03:09AM
man1c-m0g, most pc users aren't experienced (hell, I'd point the easy finger at a huge portion of AOL users). This is a serious issue, Microsoft IS trying to take control of the internet, and unfortunantly most people either a) don't know about it, b) don't care about it, or c) know and think it's impossible. The end result of any or all of the 3 types is that it will happen, and when it's done, it'll be too late to go back.

I truly believe the only thing that can stop Microsoft is the Government. Unfortuantly this won't happen unless wide-spread knowledge of what Microsoft is really doing is exposed, and the people who know write and demand congress stop them. Microsoft's .NET infrastructure is another extension of what this post talks about. Read this: [link] to learn more.

Take the time to read it, find out what's really going on, and don't just sit back and watch things go by infront of you, willingly going along with it, not complaining, and then see as Microsoft does what it is planning, and that's have COMPLETE control over your computer, your software, your files, and your internet.

Funny, most people think this is outrageous, a joke, or rather would jest and not take it serious in the option of making a funny comment. Kudos to warpbackspin for posting this, shame on you for not reading it. For those that did/do, do something about it, whether in agreement or disagreement, do something.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#8)
Date: Jun 30, 2002, 09:33AM
First off, thanks to jmanx for realising what this Palladium thing means... and giving me kudos for it :D (Big Grin)

Not relentless karma whoring though, this thing should genuinely have you scared.

"They said hardware dongles were uncrackable and would wipe out piracy of high-end programs too."

As we all know, nothing is uncrackable. But with the thing that needs cracking embedded in your processor (so it's impossible to get in there to monitor traffic), then this thing will need tobe cracked by brute force. Which will probably take, ooh, about a billion years.

"I doubt Palladium, if it ever gains a foothold, will bother experienced PC users."

Read the Palladium protocol. You will see that even if, like me, you wouldn't touch a Palladium system with a barge pole, this will mean you are locked out of the Palladium network, which if it ever achieves critical mass will spread in a virus-like expansion to covertheentire world.

Eventually, it will be illegal NOT to own a Palladium platform, because of this "guilty until proved innocent" attitude the world has towards computers (for example, if I refuse to give up my PGP key to the UK government so they can read my personal mail, I am immediately thrown in jail for two years). People are just going to buy this hook line and sinker, especially in an era of post-WTC paranoia.

: wonders if anyone else will bother replying :
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#9)
Date: Jun 30, 2002, 11:24AM
Your post sent shivers down my spine, but what the fuck can any one do about it. Bill Gates is one of the richest and most powerful man on the face of the earth. I mean think about it, for a second, his wealth , and power is beyond the scope of most peoples imagination. He is American and he lives the most capitalistic country in the world. Who is going to stop him. congress, the president ? No. There are just his pool boys. He is bigger than all of them , and if someone tries to stop him he'll just buy them. I wish that the people who represents citizens would do their job but , the world we live in, has been, and always will be about money and power, and Bill has both, so they will let him do this. Look how the record companies killed Internet radio and soon FTP networks. Business has to much power over us, and the governments let them because they are all in it for the money. Americans like to talk about freedom , but....., the age of innocence is over and the public at large in the states are ignorant sheep who are asleep. They trust in there system to much and they believe the hype ( read marketing ) about the American dream. by the time they wake up ( which I highly doubt they ever will) it will be too late, it sounds like it is too late already. I am not American, so there is nothing I can do, since your congressmen & women , and president give less of a shit about me then they do to voters, so I urge you if you are American to get off your ass and break the balls of your congress people and your president, not that it will help, but what the fuck, it will give you a chance to exercise your so called freedom.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#10)
Date: Jun 30, 2002, 12:33PM
kelt made the following post:
by the time they wake up ( which I highly doubt they ever will) it will be too late, it sounds like it is too late already. I am not American, so there is nothing I can do, since your congressmen & women , and president give less of a shit about me then they do to voters, so I urge you if you are American to get off your ass and break the balls of your congress people and your president, not that it will help, but what the fuck, it will give you a chance to exercise your so called freedom.


True. I don't feel anyone wil actually do anything about this until the disaster has already happened. It's the way society "works" these days.

By then it will be too late to go back, and your freedom will become a thing of the past.
That is, if the past exists any more...

There is something you can do though, even if you're not American. Palladium is a worldwide thing, and everycountry is going to be asked to adopt it. Personally, I'm going to be sending off letters to Parliament outlining why this outrageous proposal should be prvented form ever gaining a foothold in the UK (again, I hope the House of Lords pull through in this one - they have a very good record with regards to provacy/civil rights issues).

Just lying back and saying "oh crap, well what can anyone do about it" is just asking for Bill gates, Microsoft, the RIAA and the MPAA to fuck you over.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#11)
Date: Jun 30, 2002, 04:46PM
hm.. well first, amd and intel would have to place the chip on their chips.. no one said they had to

second of all.. mobo manufacturers don't have to place the chip on their boards either

let me read this more in depth when i am awake

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#12)
Date: Jun 30, 2002, 05:01PM
Who said we have to be online on a computer to get anything done?

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#13)
Date: Jun 30, 2002, 06:09PM
warpbackspin made the following post:

There is something you can do though, even if you're not American. Palladium is a worldwide thing, and everycountry is going to be asked to adopt it. Personally, I'm going to be sending off letters to Parliament outlining why this outrageous proposal should be prvented form ever gaining a foothold in the UK (again, I hope the House of Lords pull through in this one - they have a very good record with regards to provacy/civil rights issues).

Don't get me wrong warpbackspin, but isn't Tony in the back pocket of [link] ?
I read and hear so much about how, the British are sick of how Blair is always kissing Bush's ass. My mom lives in Canada and she told me that even the Canadians are making fun of Blair, and how much he sucks up to Bush.
I'm just being the devil's advocate here.
I'm with you 100% on this. Its just the fact is, that the states dominate the world economically, and there influence is overwhelming. Its to lop sided, and even with the EU as a counter to the states, it may fail because the people in europe can't agree on if a banana should be straight, or curved, or have a slight curve.
I want nothing more than for the EU to get there collective shit togeather so that it gives some balance to this world, but its so difficult when you are talking about so many different cultures. There are so many diffent points of views here in europe, but the americans seem to only have one (money), and this is why they always get what they want. They have there shit togeather and the are agressive, and they have more money than god and they know market ( sell an idea ). Hard to beat that.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#14)
Date: Jun 30, 2002, 06:11PM
that link is not meant to be there. it was just the name Bush.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#15)
Date: Jun 30, 2002, 08:59PM
I agree, Blair is in Bush's pocket, and it's for that reason that I refuse to vote for him (not that I agree with most of his parties policies either. For a labout government, they're the best Tory one we've ever had).

Thankfully though, there's still a significant amount of anti-American Businesses stuff knocking about (much of the EU is petrified about the idea of confidential documents being placed at ther whim of Microsoft - and this was BEFORE the whole Palladium fiasco - witness the adoption of Linux by the German Government). I am hoping that the EU will see sense and not bow in to pressure from American businesses.

There was a fantastic animation on b3ta [link] of Dubya being the puppeteer to Tony Blair. I couldn't agree more. Blair is a spineless moron who seems to care more about his image that what the people of his country are asking him to do. Many of us are sick in the way he kisses Bush's arse too. Damnit, I could make another 1984 reference about this one...

blender13 made the following post:
hm.. well first, amd and intel would have to place the chip on their chips.. no one said they had to

second of all.. mobo manufacturers don't have to place the chip on their boards either


The articles state that Intel and AMD are already in on the act - it is partly their idea in the first place. The concept was outlined in one of the Register articles, but I'll show it here for your convenience.

Computers are cnverging with home media/cinema, such as TV's, videos and DVD players (witness the Xbox, whicxh is basically a locked box incorporating a stripped down PC with an embedded OS along with multimedia functions). Intel, AMD and Microsoft (among others) see the home multimedia stuff as a future big market, but the RIAA/MPAA would never let this fly without digital rights management embedded in the system.

So, Palladium would lock down the sole popular operating system to a single architecture (x86 chips - a la Pentium and Athlon, etc), so AMD and INtel would have an awful lot to gain. The theory goes that if you wanted to access x online, you'd need to buy a Palladium equipped PC, with components made by Intel or AMD, and software from Microsoft. Hence you can see why they're all set on the idea - as it puts the method in place to create a media monopoly.

aeternitas made the following post:
Who said we have to be online on a computer to get anything done?

Well, if this Palladium thing takes off as a worldwide standard and you don't have a Palladium computer/OS, you will have:
No email
No internet access
No way to add software to your computer other than finding a CD of it somewhere
No way to install pacthes/bug fixes

Your computer would essentially become a grey box. You could play games on it, type letters, print some stuff... and that's about it.
Eventually, the theory goes, you wouldn't be able to buy a new computer that didn't have Palladium features in it.

I'm just hoping that someone has the common sense to stand up to corporate America sticking it's nose where it definitely doesn't belong. Microsoft has already been found guilty of numerous anticompetitive practices (to which the US justice system is still argiung with Microsoft about the punishment - I lost faith in this system when Microsoft said "no, we won't do that" and the DoJ backed down. Sheesh), and this has the potential to outdo them all.

Maybe I can learn Russian and move to Moscow. Or build a rocket and go live on the moon.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#16)
Date: Jun 30, 2002, 10:21PM
I thought MS wanted to own the world???
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#17)
Date: Jun 30, 2002, 11:29PM
bah! this too shall pass.

microsoft implentation has always been woefully ineffective because there are too many good people outside of MS security that spend time cracking hardware and software. plus there are people inside MS that leak critical info - it is the nature of the business. sure, they have high hopes, but the likelyhood that they will rule the planet or internet? Someone will just start another internet revolution and the cycle will continue. Nothing is static with technology.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#18)
Date: Jul 01, 2002, 07:32AM
Hmmm... This needs some thought (and I should have been in bed an hour ago.) It could well become a danger -- maybe not tomorrow, but with the speed at which things move in the computer industry, it could become reality within, say five years down the line.

Perhaps Linux can prevent it -- if Linux gets big enough fast enough.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#19)
Date: Jul 01, 2002, 10:15AM
fux0rz... hope that never happens :( (Sad)
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#20)
Date: Jul 01, 2002, 10:20AM
Let's hope this bombs out the way it should. Wasn't something similarly totalitarian tried with cell phones several years ago with little success?

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#21)
Date: Jul 01, 2002, 12:28PM
mkinne made the following post:
microsoft implentation has always been woefully ineffective because there are too many good people outside of MS security that spend time cracking hardware and software. plus there are people inside MS that leak critical info - it is the nature of the business. sure, they have high hopes, but the likelyhood that they will rule the planet or internet? Someone will just start another internet revolution and the cycle will continue. Nothing is static with technology

Perhaps you're forgetting about the DMCA (the Digital Millenium Copyright Act). This effectively gives Microsoft the right to prsoecute anyone who breaks their code in order to cripple Palladium, or even make it compatble with other programs.

Take for example the Russian hacker Dimitri Skylarov (sp?). Adobe wanted to release their e-books in Russia, but unfortunately under Russian law the e-books would be illegal, because their technology made them unavailable to all. Dimitri hacked the system so that anyone could read them, for the good of the Russian people.

Then when he came to America to give a talk on the subject, he was arrested. He was then prosecuted for commiting what was a crime uder American law, but not under Russian, which was where this act was undertaken.

The DMCA will mean that anyone who tries, successfully or not, to break the Palladium encryption (or in any of it's sub-programs - for example, trying to design a new word processor that will open .doc files) will have corporate America come down on them like a ton of bricks.

Mkinne, what this technology is doing is to make a "new internet revolution" literally impossible. Sure, you can design one - say, a new operating system that doesn't use Palladium TCP (if you can find a compiler that will let you compile it, that is), but you just try getting it to run anywhere.

The whole purpose of this is to lock down peoples hardware and software to one common standard, namely Microsoft. This, I feel, is wrong.

If America goes for this and the rest of the world doesn't, it'll be the death of the American computer industry.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#22)
Date: Jul 01, 2002, 01:47PM
i think some of you forgot the power of the people....if it becomes too much hassle people won't do it...

if a computer system takes too much energy to operate they will stop operating it.

this reminds me of the scare that came out of obd3 or obd4 (cars on board computer systems) the possibilty of big brother breathing down your neck in car is very real too, except it's already main stream. the ability for the obd3 computer to send and receive is already built in, but will it be used? no....well not really. it has the capability in a sense to send info to the cops about you speeding, in which the cop could shut your car down, or just send you a ticket and so forth. but it's not going to happen. public awareness groups, privacy groups won't let it happen. this whole thing with ms sounds way to much like a monopoly (anti trust) on computer hardware and software. if it puts other systems out, then they can't do it, no if and's or butts. the laws are already in place. it smells like unfair advantage over the competition. but really if your scared of it happened then don't sit here and complain, start something, petitions, protests, etc....

i'm not so worried ms will take over the computer scene, because if they get too close, you'll see alot of indies popping up offering underground systems and an underground internet spring forth....and i'd rather be part of the underground then part of the main-stream anyway...lol

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#23)
Date: Jul 01, 2002, 03:23PM
This is serious stuff, reminds me of a research article I read at Microsoft about the millenium project at their research site: [link] scared me witless, imagery of the borg from Star Trek was too much. I can only hope this (or Millenium) never comes to pass...

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#24)
Date: Jul 01, 2002, 03:30PM
One step closer to owning my soul.


...poop.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#25)
Date: Jul 03, 2002, 10:24PM
If this unfolds as microshit - er - soft has planned, they will become the only target of hacktivism throughout the world. And I, for one, know that i will be right along side the league of hackers trying to bring this conspiracy down.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#26)
Date: Jul 04, 2002, 12:21AM
Yes it will pass. The general public wont let it happen. Maybe in 50 years MS. If you're still alive.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#27)
Date: Jul 04, 2002, 12:44AM
i keep getting images of starwars and terminator in my head :( (Sad)

*puts on his war paint*

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#28)
Date: Jul 04, 2002, 08:59AM
*shivers*

i hate it when stuff like this comes up, cause ignorant people will let this through, thinking its a good thing, but not really knowing what is going on.

example in point: dsl getting capped in ontario by rogers and sympatico.
there are a ton of really ignorant middle aged parent type people dropping thier dsl access and going back to dialup cause htye heard someone on tv say that dialup was good cause you have unlimited time on the internet nad unlimited bandwidth and that dsl is bad and greedy corporate pigs, etc,etc. they don't remember how slow dialup was, how slow everything was before they got broadband and they're going to whine and complain until someone comes along and sticks a soosy in their mouth to shut them up, and they'll say its all someone else's fault wihtout thinking that maybe just maybe its their own.

something like palladum (or however you spell it) can and probably will get through your gonverment in the next year or so.. even in canada it could probably get through - the middle aged parent (please don't take offense anyone on deviantART) generally listens to the media nad believes any pap fed to them and right now there are a lot of stupid things being said (in my community, there is a rather frighteningly large group who wants to have internet access cut to the city)

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#29)
Date: Jul 04, 2002, 12:08PM
I also lost interest... but who cares if they want to own the internet? I WANT TO OWN THE INTERNET! :D (Big Grin)
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#30)
Date: Jul 05, 2002, 12:58AM
texas made the following post:
If this unfolds as microshit - er - soft has planned, they will become the only target of hacktivism throughout the world. And I, for one, know that i will be right along side the league of hackers trying to bring this conspiracy down

Well, maybe a chance to prove just how secure their "secure network" is, eh? But new laws coming into play will have you in jail faster than you can spit in Billg's eye.

aeternitas - how can you be so sure? Microsoft have been selling crap to the public for ages, and with Palladium they've got an even bigger reason to sell it - it will lock people down to their software for life, without hope of migration. A switch, yes, but not without losing all your data.

That is, if Linux isn't made illegal first, which to be honest I would not be surprised at what with the way M$ hate it so. M$ have too much power already, and no-one has done anything to adequately curb it.

I just get the impression that nothing is going to get done until after the disaster happens - people are already complacent about this. Just the way society "works" I guess.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#31)
Date: Jul 05, 2002, 01:19AM
if Bill Gates thinks he will ever do that, he's fooling himself...

i don't care how much this idea is legal under USA laws... at least in France, this is clearly illegal and i assume in many other countries too.

Who the guy thinks he is ? king of the world ? i think we will have a good laugh if he ever try to do all those stuffs.

for info :

in France, the government did :

- declare Internet "public interest" , means it has to be accesible to everybody

- vote an anti Windows monopole protocole, means that the OS and softwares in school, administration, has to be open-source when it's possible.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#32)
Date: Jul 05, 2002, 07:29AM
I'll be damned!
I think this doesn't go quite hand-in-hand with laws about privacy etc.
It's my busyness how much porn I want on my comp, isn't it? (as long it's legal porn off course)

Oh well, if it goes that way I'll move to my own little island with my non-MS computer and watch my porn all day long. Anyone joining for a little LAN party?? :D (Big Grin)

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#33)
Date: Jul 06, 2002, 05:00AM
Do you realy think Micro$oft would get away with this? rofl
I dont think so
And who would buy this crap?

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#34)
Date: Jul 07, 2002, 06:31AM
Well I don't know they always seem to get the people who are ignorant but what happens to free entureprise it's pretty much right to my understanding. Then they'd become a monopoly....though cause it wont be just amd or intel it still maybe alowed to pass by the stupid people in this world
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#35)
Date: Jul 07, 2002, 08:01AM
I dunno what the fuss is all about, this pallidium thing would mean that goverment computers would be effectivly controlled by microsoft, something which most governments would be very reluctant to do! I am now starting to not feel some affecetion ate to my XP machine...

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#36)
Date: Jul 07, 2002, 02:24PM
Now...most likely I'm going to say this won't happen full-force, as expected at the moment...but WILL limit many things we take for granted on the internet at the moment. IF this does happen, as horrible as it sounds I for one will perish. Before that happens though, I'm going to download 8 hard drives worth of porn, 300 games, and every other fucking pirated piece of software out there. Then we'll somehow form an alliance of techies on the sub-internet (we'll fucking make it =p (Razz) ) and take Microsoft to court...for like, monopoly and shit, because this isn't JUST a monopoly, this is a fuckin' sub-government...OMG I am so angry, that CUNT IS TAKING US BACK IN TIME!!!!!! I want to assasinate Bill...but I won't, I'll leave it up to someone else and stop posting because I'm getting carried away.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#37)
Date: Jul 07, 2002, 02:42PM
[Microsoft]'s take on it.

Excuse me while I go now to research this. :D (Big Grin)

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#38)
Date: Jul 07, 2002, 02:50PM
ok, extreamly good read. this is why if defcon wasn't considered the misfit, evil hacker scene of the universe I'd go there in an instant.

Doesn't sound good, and as a hacker (and those who are know what I mean by that) I will be putting this at the very top of next research projects.

BTW, all MSNBC links are 404, even those from a search on 'palladium' on MSNBC itself.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#39)
Date: Jul 07, 2002, 02:54PM
OMG that's a long post! In an essay writing mood? :D (Big Grin)

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#40)
Date: Jul 07, 2002, 05:39PM
I can't believe that you actually take The Register seriously.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#41)
Date: Jul 07, 2002, 08:47PM
:sigh: another DIE M$ DIE thread....

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#42)
Date: Jul 08, 2002, 06:13AM
It isnt going to happen for one very good reason.
Nobody is going to buy a computer with this palladium on it any more than they will buy a cd playing with hardware based anti copying.
Therefore no hardware company is going to go along with it.

And considering Microsofts talent for network security, well...........I think this palladium will stay unbroken for all of 15 minutes.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#43)
Date: Jul 08, 2002, 06:41AM
Not to mention that I'm SURE that every network chief in the world is immediately going to abandon their well know tcp software for this largely unknown quantity from one of the biggest security hole makers in the world. Hell almost all the copies of microsoft xp being sold are coming with the computers not being bought because people dont like the spyware provisions.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#44)
Date: Jul 08, 2002, 11:57PM
messiahwwkd made the following post:
I can't believe that you actually take The Register seriously

And who would you suggest then? MSNBC for instance, who for some reason, as netguru pointed out, have 404'd all their links? Hmm, call it "stating the bleedin' obvious", but I wonder what the "MS" in MSNBC stands for.
Post me a "reliable source" who I can "take seriously".

Sentinel:

People will buy it if they can be convinced how great it is. Observe the SACD and a host of other non-redbook audio standards which are appearing all of a sudden.

It will be more secure than networks because:
a) it is designed to be closed
b) it's in hardware
c) it uses psycho encryption
The only way to crack it is to put a port monitor all around the chip, and basically guess what the hell it is doing just by looking at the traffic. Once the "fritz chip" gets embedded in the CPU, it becomes impossible to do this.

Circumventing Palladium gets you put in jail under the DMCA

Microsoft is requiring OEM's to stop providing 2000 as an OS in nine months time, encouraging the switch to XP, and to adopt the spyware provisions

XP, with it's "auto update" feature gives M$ root access to your box.

Patches like the "media player" one of last week say they can install software which can stop warezed apps and files running, and there's no reason this can't be extended to every other program on the XP platform.

Truth is Sentinel, M$ already has the means to implement this at the software level, Palladium is just the natural extension into hardware to make it intransmutable.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#45)
Date: Jul 09, 2002, 12:16AM
what? news is biased? get out!

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#46)
Date: Jul 09, 2002, 01:38AM
Well people will buy it if it sounds great. But it doesnt. Frankly it sounds like it sucks. You haven't made any great case that anyone but microsoft would want it,as it means relinquishing conrol over your own hardware. If people wont buy it it wont go anywhere. Just beacause Microsoft floats some theoretical trial balloon doesnt mean anyone else will go along with it.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#47)
Date: Jul 09, 2002, 02:13AM
And by the way, who says its secure? From the sound of it ,this system would do NOTHING to stop the primary security threat to the average user, which is software viruses, particulary high level scripting viruses, such as the extremely troublesome and damaging Outlook Express viruses. Hardware companies are already having trouble making everobody go out and buy a new cpu because its been 10 years since anything on the Internet really but a strain on your silicon. They will be extemely resistant to building anything that will make people even more resistant to buying new hardware and this certainly would.
We can trade comments like this for some time, we'll just have to see how this develops (which I predict it mostly won't)
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#48)
Date: Jul 09, 2002, 03:24AM
That is sickening. I can't say more at the moment. :x (Mad)

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#49)
Date: Jul 09, 2002, 04:04AM
SEntinel:

It's already been established that the system is solely of benefit to the hard/software manafacturers. Like you rightly say, almost every virus these days uses the right of an already running program to damage the system; and until Microsoft starts making more secure code, there's no reason why Palladium should be any more secure than 2k is now.

As for it not selling... who says the public are going to know about it?

Where on the XP box does it say "this is Windows 2000 with a shiny GUI and privacy-invading software meaning we can disable your computer at a stroke as well as install on it whatever softwrae we want"?

Where on the Palladium box will it say stuff like this?

It won't, and what is going to help it get to market is 90% of users complete "couldn't care less/don't understand/oh I like how it's going to be more secure" attitude.

You're right in that M$ may have just put this out to test the waters so to speak, and indeed it may never develop at all, but we can't afford to get complacent.

And of course there's also the possible compromise option, well known in any industry - someone puts forward some stupid horrible rule that will be a pain in the arse to everybody. Then they go "oh well then" and instead implement one of their original idea in the first place, and everyone thinks they've gotten off lightly.

Then five years down the line they finally get to implement their origiinal "outrageous" stateent, since by that time public opinion/acceptance will have changed enough for it to meet with less resistance.

Be wary.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#50)
Date: Jul 09, 2002, 06:57AM
Ah, fuck.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#51)
Date: Jul 09, 2002, 07:35AM
I don't know what to say really. Hopefully, some braniac will code a Palladium emulator when the spread is so wide that microsoft can't upgrade every single firmware, thus enabeling people to bypass the Palladium-shields.

But this is fscking sick.... gah.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#52)
Date: Jul 09, 2002, 12:46PM
a very interesting read

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#53)
Date: Jul 10, 2002, 06:16PM
what if motherboard manufacturers do not agree with microsoft to place microsoft's palladium on their motherboards? then microsoft will have no choice but to scrap the idea
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#54)
Date: Jul 10, 2002, 09:33PM
acky made the following post:
what if motherboard manufacturers do not agree with microsoft to place microsoft's palladium on their motherboards? then microsoft will have no choice but to scrap the idea

It depends.

Most of the major mobo manafacturers are based in China or Taiwan, so I can see your logic. The point is, if the public and the US gov go for the idea, the US can basically say "we're only going to import Palladium boards from now on" - any manafacturer would be a fool to do otherwise.

And of course once the Palladium technology becomes implemented in the CPU itself (courtesy of Intel and AMD), it is no longer anything to do with the mobo makers. And of course, there's always the possibility of skipping the Palladium mobo stage altogether.
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Subject: this is why you should all be interested in synergy3... (jk) (#55)
Date: Jul 11, 2002, 08:27AM
microsoft definitely is strangling the computer industry. and why shouldn't they? they are making billions, hell even trillions doing it.

this is why we need linux...

also search for 'synergy' in the forum if you want a new perspective on a completely new OS that is being developed starting August 18th.

i would appreciate both comments and criticism they will both help me in the planning of it. it's time to give microsoft a run for their money...

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#56)
Date: Jul 12, 2002, 07:52AM
I got pointed to this from somewhere else, so I'll say this-

You're all ignorant sheep.

Palladium will never fly.

Why?

There's no reason it will.

All this talk of "they'll take over the Internet" and "they'll control your data" is just so much hot air coming out of peoples asses.

Microsoft will not put any "Palladium-enabled" chips into core Internet appliances. They will not get Cisco and Juniper on board. There is no reason for Cisco and Juniper to get on board - nothing they do is related to Microsoft.

More importantly - there's no reason for Microsoft to do this! Its counter-productive for them. Do you think they _want_ to administrate all your files?

The only things to worry about are the government pushing for this as well. That is disturbing. But offshore motherboard manufacturers have ben nice with us in the past. Most likley there will be a little switch in the BIOS - "Do you want Palladium enabled or not?"

This is all just so much FUD. Its good that you're aware of it, it'll never pass.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#57)
Date: Jul 12, 2002, 04:42PM
If it's so much FUD, then why was it all based from a press release on the M$ website?
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#58)
Date: Jul 12, 2002, 07:48PM
Palladium may never fly, or it may be exactly what the internet needs. Revolution is what the intertnet is about, and there will ALWAYS be people who are smarter than the guys who are smart enough to get employed in high level programming and directing positions.

I personally would welcome a new OS or international network type. Perhaps a neoTCP or completely rewritten transmission format/protocol. It is not like the geeks won't pick it up, and after all, where do you think ARPANET and the old nets came from? A bunch geeks that wanted to do their own thing. Then there came the idiots... *sigh*

I personally think that the internet is getting too full of idiots. I need a retreat where there are only geeks, coders, hackers that are not crackers, and people willing to fool around with new technology.

FYI, people who naysay usually end up looking like idiots eventually. Much better to welcome new technology and alternative forms of interacting (either OS, platform, hardware, whatever) than to be left in the dust.

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Subject: Re: Aeternitas want to own the internet (#59)
Date: Jul 12, 2002, 08:41PM
Bullocks. The internet is about free distribution of information. It will be controlled by no one. By all of us. It will evolve, it will never be owned.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#60)
Date: Jul 12, 2002, 11:27PM
Hmmm this is an action I like to call "Hitleritarialism", that I evolved from the word "Hitlerite". Its basic meaning is actions that, simply, hitler would do.

In this case, centrallisation, and controlling what citizens have a right to do.


aeternitas is right- microsoft don't own the internet, so look on the bright side- hopefully microsoft hq will get burnt down!
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#61)
Date: Jul 12, 2002, 11:54PM
i lost a finger when reading this.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#62)
Date: Jul 13, 2002, 01:07AM
Al Gore ownz the internet. He invented it, remember?
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#63)
Date: Jul 13, 2002, 01:18PM
anon-e-mouse stated:

"i hate it when stuff like this comes up, cause ignorant people will let this through, thinking its a good thing, but not really knowing what is going on."

I would like to state that ignorant people are caused by lack of education, which is essentially controlled by the government. Unfortunately money is your vote these days, so the majority has really little say. The problem lies here is, you cannot blame "ignorant peoples acceptance" when its really corporate devaince exploiting people. As much as our politians advocate education, the really are advocating there "idea" of education. If you are going to place blame, blame the government for exercising control and promoting rascim, sexism, and permitting people to fight amonst themselves. If we are to busy fighting with each other, we cant fight the real demon.

To quote bill hicks "all governments are lieing cocksuckers".

I believe that this post is a rather frightening idea. It does seem a bit aplocolyptic, but not necessarily unreasonable. If the govnt and corporations (who am i kidding there both practically the same thing), decide they want something, which usually always ends up being money, then they will tell us ever so subtly to go along with it. Maybe not directly tell us what to think, but they will tell us what is important, such as setting an agenda as is seen on any major broadcasting system.

Im not really sure where im going with this. Im working on a saturday and i have had 3 cups of coffee. i think i need to end this post before i shit my pants.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#64)
Date: Jul 14, 2002, 04:36PM
Quite honestly. This won't stand even if it gets approved. There's a little utility that Microsoft rues the day of including with ANY operating system called Telnet. NO operating system or network can be completely devoid of a Telnet door which is always capable of being broken into. Such a port will provide an access door to a realm of information that isn't meant for the eyes of the outsider. It happens all the time. If this even gains momentum, so will the view of Hackers as heroes again. Which could both be a good and a bad thing. Good in the aspect that we will give information back to people for free, but bad in the light that once again the term "hacker" will grace the lips of the media as a bad term. So prepare your lungs and throats to be shouting "HACKERS AREN'T CRACKERS!" every time you hear some moronic newsperson utter that "vicious hackers infiltrated and ripped apart delicate subsystems of the Microsoft Networks". Something of this calibur cannot be functional, and even if it does get past the supreme court for a short while, it will be noticed to be a monopolizing instrument of anti-competitory stature. Breaking down linux? I see that as a blatant disregard of fair play, something that Microsoft has been devoid of since its silicon valley days. Uncle Bill will keep trying to own the world, and the voices of the experienced users will shout against him and his hypocrisy.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#65)
Date: Jul 15, 2002, 04:31AM
You know, I read a lot of FUD every day that comes from "reputable" news sources... like USA Today (heh), Reuters, the Guardian...

I even read FUD from Government spokesmen! Wait... thats where I read most of mine from.

Either from fearmongering security "experts" or fearmongering Senators...

:Yawn :
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#66)
Date: Jul 15, 2002, 05:15AM
What's new?

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#67)
Date: Jul 15, 2002, 05:17AM
can Mr Bill Gates say Antitrust? anyone whos seen the movie will know whats in store for micro$oft. teach them to try and rule our world.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#68)
Date: Jul 16, 2002, 03:05AM
I had no idea about any of this so I would like to start by thanking warpbackspin and Zort (the one who linked me) for bringing this to my attention.

I noticed that some of you were saying, people will never buy this product. Well you would be right if everybody saw it under the light that warp puts it but how does this sound to you?

*NEW* Microsoft Palladium *NEW*

This new product will:

-protect your system from hackers that could gain access to your Credit Card

-prevent your child from downloading and viewing porn without your knowledge

-prevent viruses

etc. etc.

You see I am not even an advertizer just a little 15 year old that happens to have taken an interest in technology and even I can make this product sound appealing to your average parent. I haven't even touched on the movie & music aspects in that brief little push. With a half million dollars to pust there new product and having intel & amd on board, who basically have no choice, I see little chance of failure.

Some may say that once the people are informed then this will be put rest.

What is the average american more likely to believe: the news advertisements profesionally done sites such as news sites & microsoft/ intel /amd, the music industry, the motion picutre industry, etc., or a few sites that don't look so profesional and maybe an e-mail? The only chance I see is through the press. If writers can be convinced of the problem it can be printed in papers & magazines. If the press, on multiple accounts, says it is corporate propoganda people will believe it. And then people might complain.

feel free to flame if you disagree
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#69)
Date: Jul 16, 2002, 05:46AM
Support Open-Source software! You know you want to!!! ;-) (Wink)

Long live Linux!

Paul.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#70)
Date: Jul 16, 2002, 12:18PM
kithkanan says: "If writers can be convinced of the problem it can be printed in papers & magazines. If the press, on multiple accounts, says it is corporate propoganda people will believe it. And then people might complain."

i would like to add: who do you think funds the press? hear about the editor in a major newspaper that trashed disney getting fired? ([link]

hmm, i wonder if thats because disney funds that newspaper (or more like owns it). this makes me wonder how prevelent corporate ownership on the media really is....

so basically i agree with you, but im a little more pessimistic. nothing can ever gain major press if it is against the people who fund it, and the people who fund it are generally corporate giants such as microsoft. once again, we see the world is run by money. money is EVIL. tho' i wouldnt mind having more of it BWAHAHAHA
;) (Wink)
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#71)
Date: Jul 18, 2002, 04:41AM
this is a great object for debate and i personally think that it will not go through and if it did it wouldnt last long, not only are some of the protcol boredering on violation of privacy and violation of rights, but also, once people started exposin it on forums and in chat rooms, uninformed people would hear what was going on under their computers shells and finally snap to. ya know?
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#72)
Date: Jul 18, 2002, 03:05PM
uninformed people would hear what was going on under their computers shells and finally snap to. ya know?

We can hope...

There's been a large anti-M$ backlash in Europe at the mo... I just hope it continues. It might even occur in the UK, but here the gov has just signed a nice fat contract to have M$ supply all our official stuff for the next bazilion years, at the reasonable cost of two mortals sould devoured per day.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#73)
Date: Jul 18, 2002, 04:42PM
argh can someone turn everything to 2lines max please ? hehe

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#74)
Date: Jul 18, 2002, 04:49PM
screw open source - support the gpl!

[link]

:P (Lick) by the people that brough the the linux poerating system, except for the kernel :o (Eek) :P (Lick)

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#75)
Date: Jul 18, 2002, 05:01PM
DAMN YOU M$!!!!!!!!!

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#76)
Date: Jul 18, 2002, 06:32PM
Microsoft...
For every good program & OS they come out with there are 10 bad ones... Shrug thats called the real world, people.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#77)
Date: Jul 18, 2002, 07:18PM
Unfortunately s0ft, there's no reason it should be.

I wouldn't mind M$ releasing such shitty products if they weren't such monopolistic anticompetitive bastards and would give other people a chance. But no, the US justice system seems happy to let them try and own all computers in the world.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#78)
Date: Jul 21, 2002, 06:32AM
OMG.... are you all totally daft...... do you seriously think that would even work... that means you'd have to be connected to the internet at all times.....

*sigh*

that's not how the system works....

and you do know.... that if someone looks at your files remotly without your permission it's against the law in quite a few countrys..... but no.. noone ever thinks about that




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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#79)
Date: Jul 21, 2002, 10:17AM
altermind made the following post:
OMG.... are you all totally daft...... do you seriously think that would even work... that means you'd have to be connected to the internet at all times.....

Why would you need to be connected at all times? All it needs is a connection every now and then.

altermind made the following post:
and you do know.... that if someone looks at your files remotly without your permission it's against the law in quite a few countrys..... but no.. noone ever thinks about that

I take it you've never heard of Carnivore then...
The thing that monitors all the emails you send and receive. It's a little box that sits at your ISP.
Echelon too...

It might be illegal for John Q Public to hack into your computer and access your files remotely, but govs and big business see things differently.
Quite how M$ suggest Palladium would work WITHOUT access to your computer and the files therein, I don't know.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#80)
Date: Jul 21, 2002, 10:58AM
Tha's an interesting and alarming article and it is something shocking, but not totally surprising. But as long as this news gets spread and alternatives will be pointed out I have hope.

Once this starts people will only start searching for the alternatives more and more. I was doubting between XP and Linux after 98. I went for XP because I saw it in work and got a copy of it. (yeah, copied) Now with this business going on, it's easy to make the right decision next time. Maybe people will loose their MSN messenger and hotmail too, but there will be alternatives.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#81)
Date: Jul 21, 2002, 11:05AM
I think Palladium might have a chance to enter the market and sooner or later cover it. Why wouldn't it?

How many of you heard about M$ new operating system Windows XP and thought:

"Ah, whatta whole bunch of poo! Not entering my HD ever!" ?

Most of us were excited and brought blind by the flashy marketing and advertising, not to mention the rumors around the net (probably spread by Bill himself).

The palladium technology could as well have been integrated in Windows XP. And when you're asked to buy a new processor to run the new OS, the most common response would probably be:

"Ah, a new OS that requires a new processor! That must be a truly powerful OS! Let's buy!"

This is even more believable if M$ packages it like they do (as netguru posted a link to in Reply #37).

It isn't hard to convince the public to buy Palladium. Use words like "evolutionary", "new breed" and not to mention "new" (all these collected from M$ Q & A site about Palladium, linked from Reply #37). "New" is a word, that to many is nothing but good. Throw in the "latest multimedia capability" and a "enhanced gaming experience" to make the product reach even more people.

Truly some will see through M$ b*llsh*t and really understand what's going on, but not all. I was quick to buy Windows XP once it came. "Windows 2000 with a shiny GUI and privacy-invading software meaning we can disable your computer at a stroke as well as install on it whatever software we want" is what mostly I see when looking at XP nowadays. I could as well use ol' 98...

Don't fall in the same trap as everyone, discover the true face of Palladium!


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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#82)
Date: Jul 21, 2002, 12:23PM
Eproxus - you don't work in M$'s marketing dept. do you? ;) (Wink)

I quite agree though - XP bore the introduction of the software side of Palladium, and now that people have accepted that it's kids play to get them to switch to a new hardware system.

It's a pity you chose XP over 2k btw...
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#83)
Date: Jul 21, 2002, 12:50PM
Will this thread never end?! I don't even wanna read it

n0oooooooooooo!

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Subject: WHAT A DUMB @$$ (#84)
Date: Jul 21, 2002, 01:11PM
Ok firstly, its a shame to see people such as warpbackspin posting shit like that. He dosent even know what hes talking about. There was an interview on techTV couple days ago, and showed/interviwed the TWO company involved with this new technology. Microsoft is not the only company working with this new technology!

What it is..
-------------

First all it is is a chip simular to the way a smart card works. This chip contains unique keys. NONE of the keys ever touch your hdd (for security reasons)the keys are also rmoved from your RAM when a new key is used.

Palidium is a new technology, NOT AN OS!!!!!!!! (operating system) It is used to further inhance security! If the keys were put on the hdd (hardrive) it would defeat the whole purpose, because a hacker would break in to it.

Some of you are saying well, ill just take the chip out and copy its contets, then pick and pick at it, tell i get all the keys. WRONG!!!! As soon as you remove the chip it looses all power, and clears it self. because its smart card technology it can regain its information by means they dident explain on TV!

The first chips will be emplemented on mother Boards, BUT THIS IS OPTIONAL you DONOT have to have this technology on your computer!

Onley BANKS MAJOUR corporoation, witch have sensitive data will be using this technology. Virus detection and trojan detection will soon be embedded into this tecnology.

Instead of people going to the internet for news, they should watch TV and atleaset get credible information... and not missinformation by people like warpbackspin!!!!!!!!!!!!!

-Rare_Solid
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#85)
Date: Jul 21, 2002, 01:26PM
tv lies too..

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#86)
Date: Jul 21, 2002, 10:49PM
Raresolid, I'm assuming you're not a troll, so I am going to attempt to tackle you politely.

First of all, I am quite aware that this is not a M$ thing - it's a collaboration of (mainly) M$, AMD and Intel. If you read my posts properly you would have seen I already knew this - the chip makers see the next step for their CPU's is into poeples living rooms as "digital entertainment centres" and they know the only way people like the MPAA and the RIAA will let them do this is if they incorporate DRM functionality into the hardware.

Then in steps M$ with their ideas for a "new, secure OS". With the DRM hardware, M$ saw an opportunity to (possibly) make the OS more secure (although quite how this will prevent the buffer overflows et al that MS code is famous for I don't know) and also be able to manage their software licensing in an even more nazi way than they do already - namely the ability to disable any document created with, say, a copy of Office where you haven't paid your rental fee that month.

You refer to the way it functions like a smart card - how is this? The originial specifications MS put up on their website said that each hardware setup (be it either in the motherboard or the CPU) will have a unique number fixed to it - one that, by definition, can't be altered. It never said the keys would be put on the hard drive, and neither did I. What Palladium does is just assign each of your files created with the Palldium system a unique key that will enable the document to be invalidated or whatever.

You say that doing this would enable the key to be hacked - how? The key and all information it contains is encrypted, the purpose of the Palladium chip being to decrypt it. Yes, it it possible to hack, but unless you either a) monitor the Palladium chip itself and see if you can guess how it's encryption works or b) they use crappy encyption techniques, then the only way you're going to break it is by a brute force attack - something that can well take several trillion years of computer time.

And contrary to your beliefs, I am also quite aware that Paladium is an emerging technology (the name comes form MS - their press release was concerning the incorporation of Palladium into Longhorn, their up-and-coming OS - but in order to avoid confusion, the name Palladium has become synonymous with Longhorn/Palladium).

If the technology is optional and will always remain optional, what's the point in implementing it? True, it might give your average script kiddie something to thin about when they try and get their latest trojan to run on your computer, but most invasions are due to vulnerabilities in the software that's running anyway. Buffer overflows galore...
Truth is, the technology was invented to profit nobody but the hard and software manafacturers. If it provides any increase in security for the users, then great, but that's not why the product was invented.

If you're prepared to believe a single TV show on the matter rather than all the stuff that's kicking about on the net, then fine, just don't give me a hard time because of it - don't shoot the messenger bud.
Until then, I'll take my advice from world renowned data privacy and cryptography experts.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#87)
Date: Jul 21, 2002, 11:40PM
I think this whole Palladium idea can go either of two ways:

1 :: It is definitely possible that people would find a way around all of this. Look at Windows XP for example. MONTHS before it came out, people had already figured out how to bypass the product activation - as a result, many, MANY copies of XP that are in use today are all the EXACT same copy. Hence WinXP SP1 will not install on computers running this particular copy of XP. But I'm sure someone will find a way around that, too.

2 :: The main problem with Palladium is that it is being advertised as making everything more secure. Now who wouldn't want a product that makes everything more secure? Who's going to prefer to use something that (they believe) is less secure? No one. So I'm afraid a lot of people will buy into this idea, not knowing its real purpose. Then, because of Microsoft's 95% share of the operating system market, Palladium can be quickly and easily installed in nearly every computer. And, worst of all, is how non-Palladium PCs wouldn't be able to talk to Palladium PCs. Basically...once 95% of the computers in the world are running Palladium, it will be impossible to remove. Then, we are all really just screwed. Big time.

This is yet another reason for me to move to a Mac...while I can still use one, that is :( (Sad)

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#88)
Date: Jul 21, 2002, 11:43PM
I hope this shit never gets off the ground, because I mean come on, since when are computers supposed to manipulate and control what the user is capable of?

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#89)
Date: Jul 22, 2002, 12:05AM
My opinons on the matter.

Companies likd M$, Intel, AMD... They think in terms of the
future... What will technology look like in 20 years?
How can they be in the right place at the right time?

Palladium is a total real possibility. In the future where
your toilet has a MAC Address. A requirement of being
online will not be a problem.

And this is hardware based technology. They already
have commitments from the two biggest chip makers
in the world. They are buddy buddy with nVidia... Remeber
the xbox?

I find the fact that hardware companies listening to software
companies very scary.

And users will upgrade becuase of a version number or a bug
fix. Even the name is designed to portray. Gaurdian of the precious OS
protector from Viruses... Illegal MP3's... OpenSource Software.

pal·la·di·um:
1. A safeguard, especially one viewed as a guarantee of the integrity of social institutions: the Bill of Rights, palladium of American civil liberties.
2. A sacred object that was believed to have the power to preserve a city or state possessing it.

--Nate

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#90)
Date: Jul 22, 2002, 12:09AM
*applauds bignate.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#91)
Date: Jul 22, 2002, 12:26AM
I read up on this a while ago, scary shit.

/me hugs Apple

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#92)
Date: Jul 22, 2002, 12:28AM
bignate made the following post:

pal·la·di·um:
1. A safeguard, especially one viewed as a guarantee of the integrity of social institutions: the Bill of Rights, palladium of American civil liberties.
2. A sacred object that was believed to have the power to preserve a city or state possessing it.


I liked this bit bignate - where'd you get it from? Mind if I use it?
Ah... I see... another one from [link] ;) (Wink)

Daguy - I too have considered switching from trusty x86 to PPC architecture (I'm a Linux kid) in order to avoid the INtel/AMD Palldium duopoly... but then I've heard rumours that Apple might be switching to some variant of the x86 architecture, so I'm holding my horses on that one for the time being. God knows why they'd want to switch though, the Mac hardware is light years ahead of the x86 platforms. But I can't build it myself... sniff...

But I think your faith is misplaced as far as breaking the encryption goes. The illegal WinXP copies out there are, by and large, all identical. No hacking or reverse engineerimg was required - just distribution of the corporate copy and the key to go with it.
Hacking WPA was difficult, but because it was done in software it was possible to monitor the packets and get a good idea what was going on.
With the Palladium chip, the only place where the data will be decrytped is inside the chip itself, so there's no way to second guess how it's done. This is why all hardcore security nuts use hardwired encyrption boxes which just have 4 blniking LED's on the front. And then when it was discovered that the LED's might give away vital information on what kind of data the box was decypting, people welded aluminium sheets over the LED's. This is basically what the Palladium chip does.

Nothing is unhackable, it just takes time. Only if you try to hack Palladium, you'll be in for a damned heavy time in jail thanks to the DMCA.

Bah.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#93)
Date: Jul 22, 2002, 07:44AM
Thanx ~warpbackspin and all others for makin' me opening my eyes to this problem.
There is one thing i didn't understand - You're saying that Paladium "disables" all freeware and open source programs, which leads to monopoly rite? Isn't there a law makin' sure that that doesn't happen??
Then there's the DMCA - is it operational, or is it just a suggestion made from some gov.??
I have to agree with ~kithkanan that the new OS i most appealing to parents. But what M$ isn't tellin' to the ppl (you know, thoose who'll never open their eyes) is that "privacy" becomes "public". What M$ is doing is manipulating the ppl. Once the ppl knows they'll (hopefully) stop buying M$-products. Therefor I'll also have to diagree with ~raresolid - I belive that you have been mislead by that tvprogram :( (Sad)

Btw - I'm looking forward to see the outcome of all this!
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#94)
Date: Jul 22, 2002, 10:20AM
I don't want to read all that.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#95)
Date: Jul 22, 2002, 11:31AM
DMCA is very operational. Im pretty sure
its already been used to prosecute people.
Its been on the books since 1998.

Also to clear up confusion. Palladuum
is simply hardware authentication of software binaries.

You write a program it will not run on Palladium-ized
hardware unless you have it digitally signed by the
makers of Palladium, Microsoft.

That way unauthorized programs like viruses
and illlegal software will not get signatures and
not be ablet to run.

But it also gives Microsoft the chance
to limit programs running on your computer.

If its politcally/econmically viableto limit open-source
software they can effect not allow digital signatures
from those sources of software.

Just thought I would clear some things up.

--Nate


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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#96)
Date: Jul 22, 2002, 12:46PM
It seems like M$ is making way for a monopoly? Wouldn't this create more aint-trust cases?

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#97)
Date: Jul 22, 2002, 01:55PM
[link]
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#98)
Date: Jul 22, 2002, 01:56PM
Oops. I meant to say that the above link sums up my feelings on the matter.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#99)
Date: Jul 22, 2002, 02:56PM
This message was brought to my attention through
reading another on-line community's message
board I participate in.

I must say that after reading this whole post, I
then spent over six hours reading more information,
speculation, and explanations on this topic.


For now, as I'm new here and don't want to be
overzealous, I'll just say this:

In my opinion, if the TCPA industry standard becomes
more visibly adopted in the IT and business realms
AND Palladium reaches the same level of adoption
among those realms, then I believe that the future
of computing will be forever changed, possibly in
a way that will backfire across the computing
community.

The success of many products can be based on
how well they are marketed. A person may
have the most fantastic, revolutionary product
ever that they have created in their basement;
however, if they can't market that product to the
people that would use it, then the product is
seen to have "failed".

TCPA is being touted as "the emerging industry
standard for hardware security in the PC world". ^1
If this standard is marketed properly, then it will
garner a larger user base, especially starting
in the IT and business sectors. If Microsoft, AMD,
Intel, and others are supporters of this movement
and are organizing their hardware/software
standards around it already, then the average
buyer/user will probably buy into this technology.

If Microsoft's 'Palladium' seems to initially fit
the TCPA protocal AND is marketed well to the
masses, then the user base will grow even more.

If the TCPA consortium pushes their standards
onto the IT / business sectors first and it gets
embraced, it would at least initially seem inevitable
that the general user populace will have to buy
into the idea as well.

After reading what I've read, I'm concerned
about the potential for destruction of the idea
of "truth in advertising". I'm also concerned that
if the business sectors don't gather all the facts
of the TCPA / Palladium products / ideas and
the US government buys into those standards,
it's inevitable that the civilian sector will also
be forced to use those standards.

I'll finally add that while I'm not a computer
or networking expert, nor am I a sociology
major, I understand most of the major concerns
listed above and in all the research I've done thus
far to say this : While the threat may not seem
too real to most people, we can't sit around and
let our human nature of being static take
presedence. The gauntlet may seem thick
and impenetrable but the more people that
make an effort to educate others properly
and with information that at least has some
credibility, the better off we are as a society.

I for one will be continuing to monitor the TCPA
standards, Microsoft, and its other constituents
to see if this will go anywhere.

Thanks for bringing this up...

-Shawn

^1 : Wow! A processor that already meets TCPA standards and is in production!
[link]
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#100)
Date: Jul 22, 2002, 10:26PM
"Before an application can run, it too must have a digital signature remotely verified by another server. If the program binary doesn't match with any of the authenticated binaries, your computer won't run it. This, again, is meant to stop your computer running "unauthorised" software"

i don't think the creators have thought of this, maybe someone could explain it. how will programmers make new programs if they each time(out of what, 1000 before the program is finished/bugfree?) have to get a digital signature, which will also cost a lot of money? since the program at it's most early state will be buggy and maybe harmful it might not get verified. but then again, are you just supposed to bribe the people which verify it, i mean they can't check through the whole damn code for "mean" things or whatever?

since the file will have a digital signature, couldn't it just be copied to another file, or is it dynamic depending on the file or what?

"The purpose of this is to flag every file on the computer with a digital signature telling a remote server what it is. If it's an unauthorised file, the remote server will tell your computer not to let you execute it."

same problem with this, a lot of programs create 100's of temporary files when they are operating, how the hell will this be handled?

"At first, they're going to make it so that it is possible to turn Palladium off at the hardware level"

so if i do this, when starting the computer i won't have to be connected to the net or use palladium only software for that matter?


alright, something i don't understand about encyption, doesn't it use a lot a computing power to decrypt and encrypt data? and doesn't encrypting a file increase it's file size a lot?


what i'm worried about all of this, even if it doesn't turn out evil, is with all the subscriptions and isp's starting to get want to make you pay per mb downloaded, almost no-one but the very richest will be able to access the net or even just use a computer.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#101)
Date: Jul 22, 2002, 10:36PM
Warpbackspin :: Thanks for clearing that up for me...let me just ask one more question though, to see if I'm understanding this right. Do all the Palladium chips function the same way? If so, then once one is hacked, wouldn't it therefore be possible to hack all the others using the same method? Or does Palladium work more like the WinXP activation, in which the activation key has to be different on each computer because it's based off of all that computer's hardware?

Basically, what I'm asking is can the same hack can be applied to each Palladium chip? Or will the hack for each chip have to be different?

daGUY :: DGD2k2
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~planethunter Deviant is offline! Developer 




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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#102)
Date: Jul 23, 2002, 05:27AM
mmm f*ck this is a loong tread :) (Smile) .. hehe nes the les i got troug it all :/´

now there is just a few questions comming to my mind now that im a software dev. but seas actually covered the most of them, especially when you are bug testing.. i compile and run my programs like 10 times a minut to check for bugs and/or se if new things i implemented is working properly.

and think of it. How many programs is it that would have to be authed ? well it is more than i can have on my hands and fets together :/.

Another thing .. They can't just lock a file ext. to just one program, so that you may not use .doc or open a .doc file unless you are using ms word.

and. why is it that ms have to be the one that schould warify the files ? .. that is clearly a monopol in my eyes...?

I can se that it is handy for big companys that need secure servers and such .. but for the end user ? i can't se the good in it for the end user..

and the DMCA that forbids you to make a os that would be compatible to the Palladium/tcp thing .. whys that a crime.. thats not a crime.. thats a feture, that benefids for all..

In the loong term i can't se how MS ever could realise that dream.. maby in about 50-100 they have a chance to do it..
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#103)
Date: Jul 23, 2002, 08:06AM
M$ already owns the internet

hotmail gets over 6.5 billion hits a month. that's 216 million hits per day

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If...
you...
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sex sex sex...
you..
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It's sick sick sick, you dirty bitch!
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#104)
Date: Jul 23, 2002, 11:04AM
So if they own a good and known service.. that dossent make them rulers of the internet.

This site is a nice and good service.. that doesent make deviantart rulers of the inernet does it ?!
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#105)
Date: Jul 23, 2002, 11:08AM
long·horn

1. Any of a breed of cattle with long horns, formerly bred in great numbers in the southwest United States.
2. A variety of Cheddar cheese molded into a long cylinder.

now number 2 is what it is ! Cheddar chease and lots of it.. :P (Lick)
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#106)
Date: Jul 23, 2002, 02:52PM
PressPass: When can we expect to see Palladium-compatible computers on the market?

Manferdelli: This initiative won’t happen tomorrow or next year. It’s a long journey and we’re still drawing the map.


This is taken from the ms &A: Microsoft Seeks Industry-Wide Collaboration for "Palladium" Initiative [link]

Now this also indicates that they havent even figured out half the stuff about palladium.. it aint even realistik in the next 10 years atlest, and by then we aint even using computers .. we are using some sort of 3d VR technoligy
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#107)
Date: Jul 23, 2002, 04:39PM
"how will programmers make new programs if they each time(out of what, 1000 before the program is finished/bugfree?) have to get a digital signature, which will also cost a lot of money?"

Current idea is that industrial computers (namely servers and other high grade machines used for expermiental stuff etc etc) won't have Palladium enabled hardware - which obviously will come at a price the home user can't afford. Palladium isn't aimed at big businesses computers, it'a aimed at the desktop - where all the stuff that needs DRM and all the rest of it happens.

"alright, something i don't understand about encyption, doesn't it use a lot a computing power to decrypt and encrypt data? and doesn't encrypting a file increase it's file size a lot?"

It uses some computing power, yes. But the Palladium chip decrypts in hardware, so it does all thw work so your CPU doesn't have to.
Encyption (at least the stuff I use - PGP/GnuPG) has little or no affect on the size of the file. It just renders it totally unreadable - you could think of it just as thrwoing all those 1's and 0's into the air and watching where they fall down. You get a random string of binary which you can't meake head nor tail of, and then decryption brings it all back together.

"Do all the Palladium chips function the same way? If so, then once one is hacked, wouldn't it therefore be possible to hack all the others using the same method?"

No, each Palladium chip has a unique key. It might be possible to use the same method to monitor and break them (such as replacing your RAM DIMM with another computer, to analyse and eventually replicate the data, as a friend of mine suggsted last night), but each chip is different and there's no one code that will break them all.

"They can't just lock a file ext. to just one program, so that you may not use .doc or open a .doc file unless you are using ms word."

Name me another word processor with good market share that opens .doc's reliably. MS already have a monopoly on office software - people such as Corel (WordPerfect), Sun (StarOffice) and the OSS community (OpenOffice) have tried damned hard to get thier products to open and save .doc's reliably and quickly, with mixed success.
Along comes the DMCA and Palladium ,and all of a sudden it's illegal to try to reverse engineer Word so you can see how .doc's work (since mS aren't nice enough to tell people lest any real competition should arise).

"and. why is it that ms have to be the one that schould warify the files ? .. that is clearly a monopol in my eyes...?"

MS wouldn't even have to oversee who gets what prog authenticated - that's the beauty of it. As is stands at the moment, it would mean that everyone had to pay to get progs to run on Palladium enabled hardware. Fine for MS, fine for Apple, but it would break open source/free software at a stroke.

And again, there's also the matter of prorietary standards and formats, combined with the DMCA, which could make progs like Word and Office the sole programs in existence for word processing/general office softtware etc. Proprietary formats suck for the consumer.

"M$ already owns the internet"

I hope you don't think this is a good thing...
But they don't own the internet in the sense that they're able to control who and what can see who and what.

"it aint even realistik in the next 10 years atlest"

I take it that's why the specs for Palladium were releaesed under the specs for Longhorn (nex-gen OS), which is scheduled for release in 2004-5.
That's a very short 10 years. XP and the patched WMP already incorporate most of the features that Palladium wants. The possiblity of implementing it in almost-unhackable hardware isn't that far off people.
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Subject: i will be a snowbord dude (#108)
Date: Jul 23, 2002, 04:58PM
if that happens i will give upp on computers and move to Norway......
hate that everything cost so much there btw hehe ;) (Wink)

snowboarding...

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#109)
Date: Jul 24, 2002, 11:46AM
I just had to register to put a comment on this, as this is pretty interesting thread... I wouldn't waste whole hour if it isn't :) (Smile) ... I really hope someone will read this, as i did a little research on this matter...

First...

People, wake up... Specially those sleeping on 'I'm in EU, we have some anti-monopoly laws here...', KPNQuest has gone bankrupt... It holds more than 40% of Internet transfer in Europe... If it would go down, Europe wont be able to fix internet transfers in next several months... In other words, Europe could stay without internet... And we sit here discussing how Internet might become M$'s... KPNQuest has debt of 'only' 2 billions... Not a big price for company that haves more than 200,000 km of optical wires spread world wide (more than 60,000 km just in Europe)... Now, what it has to do with the above story... well, simple M$ can freely buy KPNQuest, set it an 'TCP/MS' (as it was called in one post above) protocol, and whole Europe will have to adopt it, if they don't want to loose Internet. Simple as that... So, such a protocol is VERY possible, and pretty nice doable... Also, KPNQuest holds more than 160,000 km of optical cables in US, too... there you go... Perfect match...

Second...

Someone said something about 'who will force Intel and AMD to stand at their side...'. Noone needs to force them... If they will be the only ones that will have license to implement those chip addons, then only their processors will be sold... They have a HUGE interest in this, and i have no doubt that they will support M$ any damn day... As they did till now, anyways...

Third...

Someone said that it's impossible for M$, Intel and AMD to be the only main OS/Hardware developers, and that global market wont allow it... Then there was another funny comment 'stick with macs'... Those 2 are totally contrary... First of all, it's very possible... Market will buy it... On the same way as market support Macs... Here comes the second... Who creates the hardware for Macs? ... Apple ... Who creates the main software for it? ... Apple... Do you even know why Mac appears more stabile than Winblows? Because of hardware compatibility... They adjust their software to their hardware... M$ has far more problematic job, adjusting their OSes even for hardware that is not out yet, hardware that is developed in some home-shop, with as less quality as it can be.... Same thing will happen here, it might sound weird, but yes, Palladium technology will actually bring more stability to x86 platform... And that's a HUGE reason to buy a new computer, and less informed people will accept that with gratitude... And get addicted to M$ once and for all... Only better thing on Macs is that they are done in RISC technology (although getting out-dated), while x86 is the worst technology that managed to live this long... Let's wait for Itanium ... I saw one system, and i was pretty amazed... never expected such a thing from Intel, luckily, it wont be affected by this Palladium bias...

So, we have 2 main predisposition for M$ to succeed in creating this dirty scum... We will sit here, and discuss about it, until one day Palladin doesn't say to our computers 'Sorry, that page is bad and illegal', and we wont be able to see it anymore... A really nice way to control the world...

Even more sad fact is that 80% people here actually supports M$ in some of their fields... Specially when it comes to browser, programming, development and so... Well, go ahead... one day we'll all be sorry... Just as I am sorry as we (tones of programmers and administrators including my self) didn't prevent signing contract between our government and M$... We actually had even larger thread where all we did was talking... then when that happened, we were swearing and cursing... But, the fact is that they signed the deal...

People from M$ are extremely smart, and it takes more than just a thread with several frustrated, angry or scared people to stop them...

I say, BSD for all!

Just mine $.02...

[small]
Typed in NS 7.0PR1, in (ahm) Winblows 98SE (unfortunately, i'm one of those people that haves a HCF modem, but that's the only modem that works well with mine ISP).

QotD: STOP THE M$
[/small]
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#110)
Date: Jul 24, 2002, 12:09PM
digitallifeform take me with you :) (Smile) .. hehe


but hey .. they can't just go charge ppl for getting their own little small usefull aps to work.. that is totaly to laugh off.. :/

There is actually a quite big hand of ppl. like me that programs in their freetime making freeware and such.. they wont ever go with on the idea.. and the *nix ppl. they won't go with it either..
Think of lets just say the borland community..

They have to make a feture so you can compile and run your own software on your own machine.. and then also making a feture so you can se that I trust this software, so you can run it on other machine without having to pay for it.. else a lot of ppl. are gonna get maad!! realy maad!!

else i can't realy se anything bad in this.. dont take me wrong.. i like OpenSource but if this can stop med from getting 5 mails aday containing viruses and stuff.. then ill just have to live with it. not saying that im happy about it. but you can't realy do that much.. the only thing i can se wront in this is monopol but who has the mony to start a case against MS/TCPA? serdenly not me
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#111)
Date: Jul 24, 2002, 12:17PM
mm well.. there i agree with you on all but the bsd part :P (Lick) ..

What good is bsd then palladium comes ? .. then you can use it for squad :/ ..
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#112)
Date: Jul 24, 2002, 09:32PM
Personally, I think this is bullshit. I want proof that software like this is being developed from a source other than The Register (something like Cnet or perhaps from Microsoft themselves). Developing software like this is not only a bad idea in so many ways, but its just plain dumb, and I'm (maybe not rightfully so) give Microsoft the benefit of the doubt that they arent stupid enough to create something like this.

For argument sake, lets say this does exist. Theres no way that a product like this would ever be able to hit the market. Not only would it virtually eliminate every small software/freeware company out there, but it would basically freeze Intel and AMD as the main processor manufacturers. Also, I imagine that the "Secure Network" thingy has to violate some sort of privacy law out there.

Sorry if I repeated what someone else said. I really didn't feel like reading all the comments.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#113)
Date: Jul 25, 2002, 02:03AM
hmmm... and isn't this: [link] officially from M$???

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#114)
Date: Jul 25, 2002, 01:32PM
hehee..


mambojuice:

This is a brilliant idea.. it just need to be tweeked alitle.. but they aint done with it..
Im gonna take warpbackspin's word that this will be out within the next 6 years..

That gives them like ~12 hours * ~30 days * 12 months * ~5 years = ~21600hours atleast to work something out and they have been working on this what was it sine that start of the 90 i think i saw some place ?

The software is also already partly implemented in winXP why do you think they will stop selling win2k ? because they want users to move to winXP..

Not only would it virtually eliminate every small software/freeware company out there

This i totaly agree.. and i realy hope for them that they will use those ~21600hours to think of a way to eliminate that problem..

but it would basically freeze Intel and AMD as the main processor manufacturers.

Yeah and so ?? Who else do you realy know ho make CPU's today ? .. ill bet you don't know 2 others than intel and amd ! and don't you think that Intel And Amd want to totaly back MS up with this idea, that will properly eliminate all their konkurents.

imagine that the "Secure Network" thingy has to violate some sort of privacy law out there.

What privacy law ?? .. i can't se that it is vialating any privacy law..

The only little privacy prob i can se is the auto update and auto install of new programs in you os by MS.. but you actually agreed in the terms of the os or where ever it stands !!! so that i can't se a problem in




sx: I do belive it is :D (Big Grin) hehe
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#115)
Date: Jul 25, 2002, 04:43PM
All I care about is the internet working.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#116)
Date: Jul 25, 2002, 09:17PM
I offcially hate windows after reading this. anything MS can bite me...wit the ecception of xbox

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#117)
Date: Jul 25, 2002, 10:13PM

Just some thoughts..

It seems to me that the leverage that MS will use to make everyone want this new Palladium system is that they must have it to connect with the rest of the Palladium machines on the internet. Once it gets established the pressure becomes very great to get a compatable machine.

The same leverage could be used against them if some clever hacker can come out with an anti Palladium code that keeps Palladium machines from connecting to "free net" servers. If you bought a Palladium machine and could only connect to other Palladiums and not the rest of the free net that would discourage its growth..

The "free net" code could be spread by a virus to all the servers, its only purpose would be to refuse Palladium machines from connecting....

Then folks would have to choose Palladium or Free Net..

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#118)
Date: Jul 26, 2002, 02:39AM
personally i doubt it will take off, the last post states the idea of a virus that will only let pallidon systems connect to each other, i thought that was in the original design? from original post: "Palladium machines will only be able to talk to other Palladium machines"

if that is true then the average user wouldn't switch because at first the palladium internet would be small

the only way m$ could ever pull this off is by incorporating it into everyones system slowly, maybe not changing anything at first, like it compeletly disabled, then once they have like 70% of comps, then turn all those on so the majority of the last 30% would be forced to upgrade

concidering i know many people with pentium 1's and win98 or even win95 there is no way to just release a new comp that has all those features turned on because alot of people i know only buy a new computer when the old one breaks or their kid is going to college and needs one and so on...

about the marketing: (taken from [link] new here and haven't figured out how to make it just say Link yet :) (Smile) )
PressPass: Will Palladium change Windows?

Manferdelli: Palladium will allow us to introduce a new level of functionality, one that is not designed to replace anything that happens in Windows but rather to open new capabilities and new possibilities. The things that are great about Windows today will be great about Windows tomorrow, and on into the future. The things people like to do with Windows won’t go away, but Palladium will let people take advantage of new solutions and advantages that we can only imagine today.

that sounds pretty good to me...if i didn't know better than to believe microsoft ads (thats the only part of m$'s page i read but i read all this post)

was directed first to another page with a copy of the original post on it by a IRC chan i'm in, then here by that page :) (Smile) also am starting an email to hopfully enlighten more people of this travestry

[thats a lot longer than i would have thought my thoughts woudl be...]
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#119)
Date: Jul 26, 2002, 02:42AM
cool it makes it say link all by itself :) (Smile) ok enough of my talking...
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#120)
Date: Jul 26, 2002, 11:39AM
I didn't doubt this was going to happen at all. As a matter of fact, AOL, Worldcom, Adelphia... major telecommunication companies all of a sudden gettin hit cause of fraud? I don't think there a complete coincidence in all.

This fall, we will see a revolution of the internet as we know it. Copper and fiber will be already outdated, as wireless everything will prevail. Sattilites are being launched everyday for this worldwide unity of wireless "everything." Basically, the US government has organized this with Verizon (the only company that has been able to provide dial-tone and owns over 80% of the wired laid in the world) to rid of DSL, cable, etc. and to transfer everyone to a simple wireless connection that will be so superior to cable connected internet that everyone will want it. Basically, it will be extremely cheap (around $10.00 a month), bandwidth will be 5MB up and down basic and you will be able to buy MB for dollars a month, unless a meteor hits your sattilite, there will no downtime, and pings will be exceptional (around 20). Space is a vaccum, allowing data transfer to psas through extremely quickly, so basically, your computer sends an inquery, inquery is sent out from a box which generates a wireless signal (which can reach any provider up to 150 miles), the provider shoots the inquery into the sky, then from there, its bounced around the world at lightspeed. You can figure how much faster it will than fiber by subtracitng the bouncing of the light in the glass wire, and the minimal friction from the data on the glass. Your thinkin, great? $10.00 a month, and all this? Hell, I want it.

Things are too good to be true. Simplistically, the government is funding all of these operations for its own benefit. Although this will be government hosted, it will be covered up with providers such as AOL (which will probably go under), MSN, Earthlink, etc. The provider list will probably increase ALOT due to the easement of being able to get a satillite signal, thus prices will drop even more and competition will be fierce (again to the 150 mile service length). The governemtn is involved only because they want to know what everyone is doing, where they are going, etc. They will be able to watch your signal easier than calling your house. Although it will be highly encrypted, and only the govt can interpret what your doing, you still are being watch, and as we will see, your freedom and rights will be slowly taken away. This Microsoft operation is the start of it, and is shown to be a right taker, but people will be COMPLETELY oblivious to what this wireless internet is about and what your giving up by using it.

In the near future, everything will be easily connected to the wireless internet world, watches, palm pilots, hell, probably even the stove...everything. You won't be able to escape from being known where you are. Just as an example, with the stove, they will be able to inspect your stove from across the world, figure out what is the problem, and send you a fix for it. Or if your stove is going to blow up or something, they can call you or something. Something that will appear to be a great convinience, but will all actually be strings from our bodies to the government hands.

You might think you will be able to escape using the wireless internet, but in all actually, you won't be. They will incorporate this in work systems, schools, etc. and you want to use cable/DSL? There won't be any providers, the govt will make sure of that. As soon as they perfect this in the US, they will move onto the world. You will never ever be alone again. This Microsoft act is the start of the end. The next 10 years are going to be demon hell-ride to the suspectful, and an oblivious joy-ride to the others.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#121)
Date: Jul 26, 2002, 11:46AM
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (115)
Date: Jul 25, 2002, 04:43PM

All I care about is the internet working.


---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- -

Another reason why your rights will be gone, too many people are ready to give them up... too many oblivious people. People like guy should be fed to whales.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#122)
Date: Jul 26, 2002, 11:48AM
this is the end of "freedom" and "creativity as we know it.....
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#123)
Date: Jul 26, 2002, 05:02PM
No they do not want to own the internet they want to own the univers.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#124)
Date: Jul 26, 2002, 05:28PM
There is a lot of angry people here and what we need to do if we dont want this is to start a HUGE Anti-M$ online community, where we get major supporters (i.e linux, mac etc.) people who don't like the effects of palladium will have to their companies. When we get i dunno, 20million supportors m$ will find there wont be enough money in it for them and will go ahead but the only people who will have the system are dodgy first buyers and people who have no idea on what there plan it.

20 Million + will get recognized and we will get new hardware manufacturers to make us motherboards, processors because they will be garanteed the sales.

But we will lose everything if we dont act now.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#125)
Date: Jul 26, 2002, 11:17PM
This is a very long thread so I will respond as I read. This is from kelt I quote
"I am not American, so there is nothing I can do, since your congressmen & women , and president give less of a shit about me then they do to voters, so I urge you if you are American to get off your ass and break the balls of your congress people and your president, not that it will help, but what the fuck, it will give you a chance to exercise your so called freedom."

I did not include your entire thread because it was long. I agree Bill Gates has a lot of power. I spent four years at one of the top 10 univ studing Political Science to know this. The power to vote is the greatest power there is but most people do not realize this. Even this power can beat Bill Gates. Of all the branches of Government, Congress is by far the most powerful but they suffer the enevitable which is the collective action problem. However, if this is overcome Congress can pass laws without the President's approval and the Supreme Court can rule laws unconstitutional, but at the same time the Constitution says nothing about lower courts. These were all later created by Congress (IE all lower courts could be killed, in the Fed system that is, and the appeal system would be bye bye). But this is a moot point. If voter would wake up and turn up at the polls they could make a difference. Example every two years a district votes a new Congressman until they go after and destroy MS. The same for every six years of the Senate.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#126)
Date: Jul 26, 2002, 11:54PM
This is proof that Big Buisness owns the government, and will soon have a hold on us.

I'm not doubtful that this will happen, but it's violating the constitution on so many levels it's not funny. Then again, nothing about this is funny.

I'm terribly shocked and disgusted at this matter.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#127)
Date: Jul 27, 2002, 01:00AM
- if you don't like it, don't buy it.
- some of this does have a point beyond microsoft staying the biggest, etc. they've got goals beyond taking over the world, or whatever it is you're convinced they're doing. don't be quite so quick to jump to conclusions about their motives.
- didn't microsoft techies spend years coming up with the anti-piracy stuff on winxp? didn't it take hackers 24 hours tops to crack it all?
- honestly, they aren't gonna hire teams to personally rummage through every computer on the network searching for porn. even a program wouldn't be able to filter it all out - besides which that would be a violation of the constitution and would never stand in court, etc.
- get over it.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#128)
Date: Jul 27, 2002, 02:23AM
flipsyde made the following post:
There is a lot of angry people here and what we need to do if we dont want this is to start a HUGE Anti-M$ online community, where we get major supporters (i.e linux, mac etc.) people who don't like the effects of palladium will have to their companies. When we get i dunno, 20million supportors m$ will find there wont be enough money in it for them and will go ahead but the only people who will have the system are dodgy first buyers and people who have no idea on what there plan it.

20 Million + will get recognized and we will get new hardware manufacturers to make us motherboards, processors because they will be garanteed the sales.

But we will lose everything if we dont a



WTF is this for a gaseling ? ..
I totaly agree with you magique.. You are all making quick conclusions.

What about wating to there are some more faqs on the table.


soupaboy: precisly what constitution is it violating ? .. Tell me that.


iprrly made the following post:
No they do not want to own the internet they want to own the univers.

What a bunch of craP.

Regarding ehrgeiz's post i can only say .. you may be right.. but i belive in the system, if they are making something that is violating a law in any cind then they WILL pay for it im sure.

But ehrgeiz, don't you thing this is what we need to move forword in tech ? i do. I think this could be the beginning to something that will be good for evryone .. NOT JUST MS

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#129)
Date: Jul 27, 2002, 09:11AM
>

I agree we need to move forward in technology, and this wireless service which will be provided will be just that. But everything comes with a cost, unfortunately, its going to be our freedom to go whereever the hell we want without being known where we are, privacy (in many different forms), and so on and so on. I mean, you can't stop this at all, because we really have no control over it. We can't refuse to use the product because we will in some ways have to (school, business, work, etc)... the govt. basically has us by the nads. Don't tug, or it will hurt.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#130)
Date: Jul 28, 2002, 03:21AM
hmmm... people... why are you so afraid for your privacy? Nothing is secure and private this days... if someone (enough powerful) wants to know are you ATM, it wont be any problem for him... Internet, Business Cards, Post offices, Hotel recceptions, cellular phone... all of that can give your location pretty easy...

How can you be sure that your current windows doesn't spy on you? ...

What I'm afraid of is killing freelance, opensource and similar kind of programmers, as well as putting internet in M$'s hands... That's the scary part... Privacy doesn't exist anyways...

Cheers...

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#131)
Date: Jul 28, 2002, 04:57AM
sx: if you are going to quote or paraphrase a Sun Microsystems executive, at least have the decency to give his name :P (Lick)


Scott McNealy, CEO, Sun Microsystems:

"You have zero privacy anyway, get over it.".

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#132)
Date: Jul 28, 2002, 04:49PM
Lol... Didn't know that... after all, quote or no quote, i agree 100% Spyed

Cheers... :D (Big Grin)
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#133)
Date: Jul 29, 2002, 03:33AM
The Governments of the world will not help you.

‘Governments are there to protect business from the out rage of the people.’
Derrick Jensen

They (the Govenments) will not place any barriers in front of this technology.
Vote with your pocket that’s the only way business and the governments listen these days (Unless you have a large army handy). Buy software and technology that does not have the system implemented.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#134)
Date: Jul 29, 2002, 01:54PM
ehrgeiz made the following post:
>



I agree we need to move forward in technology, and this wireless service which will be provided will be just that. But everything comes with a cost, unfortunately, its going to be our freedom to go whereever the hell we want without being known where we are, privacy (in many different forms), and so on and so on. I mean, you can't stop this at all, because we really have no control over it. We can't refuse to use the product because we will in some ways have to (school, business, work, etc)... the govt. basically has us by the nads. Don't tug, or it wil


Coulden't have said it better myself :P (Lick)
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#135)
Date: Jul 31, 2002, 09:39PM
ah, crap =-(

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#136)
Date: Aug 04, 2002, 04:38PM
that sucks donkey ass!
*hits his MS steering wheel*


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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#137)
Date: Aug 05, 2002, 04:58AM
They tried it b4, it's not going to work, since we can all sue them if they do, because of thise we can't make our "Legal" Backup, so if they do it, let's all sue M$

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#138)
Date: Aug 06, 2002, 12:00AM
yeh. hopefully it does get assfucked by the judicial system because microsoft has to be breaking so many freakin laws just by sudgesting that.

if it does come down to governement decisions then i and my country are fucked.

frankly Australia is Americas bitch when it comes to anything remotely defence related.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#139)
Date: Aug 06, 2002, 12:21AM
ouch. :o (Eek)

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#140)
Date: Aug 07, 2002, 12:34AM
Well, I did my best to read all the posts. But being the lazy guy that I am, I skipped over some posts, so dont mind me if I repeat some stuff that has already been said.

Here's my, Here's my $0.02

Wouldn't all this be an invasion of privacy? Reminds me of KEY LOGGING. If I'm not mistaken, thats illegal.

If M$ does incorperate this into the next operating system, it may be a problem. Since most of the people who use a computer, are ignorant people, who tend to get 100000 instances of spyware running on their comps, and not notice anything. They also make the bulk of the computers bought in the industry. And they buy from companies such as HP, Compaq, DELL, Gateway, ect. They would for sure adapt this new program, since its what would be sold to them through Intel, AMD, and M$. The only people who would avoid this program would be the people who can actually put together and run their own computers. But soon they will be forced to buy these new "limited" chips. But I don't think hope is lost. For every ounce put into anit-piracy, theres about 10 more, causing more privacy.

Well anyways. I'm sure something would be done to prevent this. after all, we don't live in a perfect world. If we did, everyone would be rich. =) (Smile)

Well, people SHOULD do something about this, instead of sitting on our fat asses. Lets set something up and talk to our congressman//woman. This government is made for the people, not businesses. But then again, Its not a perfect world. Eyepopping

Again, its just my opinion, but, it seems as if history is repeating itself. Industrial Revolution, Big businesses controlling wages, opressing people, keeping people in submission. Or was it during the 20's and the starting of the companies like Ford and such. Meh. Same with the Prohibition. Drinking was banned, but this time, people, or gangsters, found a way around it. I hope this time, things will go quick, and it would be history again. In our history books, saying something like, "Back in 2002-200(10)? an evil company called MICROSHIEET tried to take over the internet, then the world!" then the kids in that class would ask "WHATS THE INTERNET!!" ahaha... ok. Sorry.

I wonder if someone could contact Osama Bin Ladin, and ask him to crash a plane into a certian Bill Gates house. =) (Smile)

Btw, I thought Al Gore owned the internet. =) (Smile) (I read that up there some where. Credit to who ever wrote it.)
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#141)
Date: Aug 09, 2002, 05:53AM
microsoft sucks as, if this goes through a shitstorm will come and it will blow microsofts way.
the open software soceity will kill microsoft for this

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#142)
Date: Aug 09, 2002, 06:51AM
eibwen made the following post:
the only way m$ could ever pull this off is by incorporating it into everyones system slowly, maybe not changing anything at first, like it compeletly disabled, then once they have like 70% of comps, then turn all those on so the majority of the last 30% would be forced to upgrade

What do you think .NET is doing?


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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#143)
Date: Aug 09, 2002, 09:21AM
you guys are paranoid bunch lol. the local banks are trying to get all of your money too so that no one will carry cash!!!

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#144)
Date: Aug 10, 2002, 09:05AM
Shocked

Start running petitions to make this kinda shit illigal :D (Big Grin)

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#145)
Date: Aug 11, 2002, 06:15PM
crap i got tired of reading so many go-and-check-server things

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#146)
Date: Aug 11, 2002, 06:18PM
btw, i forgot to mention, no matter what they do or what they put on theri Hardware or in the OSs, there's always a way to hack/decramble/undo things in computers, so i don't doubt someone will come with a solution for this... well that's how it has always been, this cannot be invoulnerable as it is built by non-perfect humans...

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#147)
Date: Aug 17, 2002, 08:08AM
If you've played Metal Gear Solid 2: Sons of Liberty, you know about the Arsenal and the "GW" AI. Heh, you thought it would never happen... Well, it seems like this is about as close as it gets.
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Subject: Palladium = Unix box takeover (#148)
Date: Aug 20, 2002, 08:51AM
There will be a number of people who choose to continue to use microsoft as their client side application for years to come. Now, most large companies are hesitant to move to XP, I know many who still use NT 4.0 and 2000. So only after YEARS of being on the market will the companies make the switch I believe.

Secondly, about that secure network idea, it will not happen. I do not think that many corporations will allow that to happen. Think about it, say a company has a division for graphic design, do you honestly think they have microsoft based computers there? I highly doubt it, they have MACs. You think that computer users who can understand this information will make the switch? I can guarantee you that the majority may have a look at this OS and chuck it out the window. Let microsoft control what I can and cannot do? ya right. Palladium will go right beside my Win 98 CD, on my table, as a coaster, to put my Tim Horton's coffee on while I work on Win 2000(in my mind the best microsoft OS yet) or my Unix box. The entire computer community will reject this OS if it does reach the light of day, unless they price it at its true price ($0.99).

Do not get me wrong, I am not posting purely to bash microsoft, I think 2000 is a great OS, and XP(eXponential Problem) isn't bad for a premature birth OS. Its just the idea of having only 1 OS to use, 1 office suite, 1 browser/email client, NO P2P, I think if Palladium is brought out, Unix based platforms will emerge as the market leaders of the new generation. Hopefully no one will have the possiblity of gaining control of these OS's and begin charging stoopid amounts of money for them. I don't mind $150.00CDN if it gets me a great OS, but $600.00CDN for an OS with something like 23 pre-service pack fixes is a bit steep.

In the end, Unix will be the OS, Microsoft will lower in their ranks, and computing will begin its glory days, FREE everything for an OS, pay only for seperate programs that are designed to work with the OS(games, mostly everything else has a freeware version somewhere).

Well, that is my rambling, thank you for reading, please reply with your remarks
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#149)
Date: Aug 24, 2002, 11:51PM
Hasn't Microsoft figured out that the very word security is a joke in itself? I'll give it 2 weeks-3 months before the security is broken.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#150)
Date: Aug 25, 2002, 02:57AM
Hey.. Signed up to this forum just for this topic. lol ok So I didnt read most of the replys, too tired right now, currently 5am and havent been to sleep yet. I just read most of the smaller ones and skimmed threw the rest.. anyway. Quotes.



Kornix

"M$ already owns the internet

hotmail gets over 6.5 billion hits a month. that's 216 million hits per day"

Well yeah, but thats not really owning it, and even that is little to how much is on the net. MS doesnt really seem happy untill they get everything, not just some or even a large group.



Arm

"I offcially hate windows after reading this. anything MS can bite me...wit the ecception of xbox"

Ive never liked Windows, the OS was always crap and just didnt trust it, thats why I bought a mac. =3 And as for XBox.. Ive hated that consol before it came out all because they STOLE Halo, it was ment for MacOS and Windows, made by Bungie (one of the best game makers, been with them since 1996), been looking forword to the game for Years. Then MS comes along and buys out the company and makes it for XBox only, as well as basicly makes bungie shit and worthless other then to continue making Halo for XBox.

Also continueing on the XBox, from what I know the XBox2 is going to be around web browsing, as they say "We see in the future everyone should be able to serf the net from just infront of there TV" or something like that.. it was a while ago when I saw that.. Anyway, wasnt there something else like that, called WebTV? wow that didnt get far, Plus seeing how its only Broadband.. everyone would have a computer for that anyway and would make it useless. AS WELL AS How do we know they wont just slap this in the XBox2 as well, if you nodice all consol games are becoming online play. Whats stoping them from doing this to consol gaming, buying out the best games and locking out the rest from online play, so what does that mean, MS will then own Computers, Internet, and consol.. Seems like they are starting to own everything with a CPU in it.



SX

"hmmm... people... why are you so afraid for your privacy? Nothing is secure and private this days... if someone (enough powerful) wants to know are you ATM, it wont be any problem for him... Internet, Business Cards, Post offices, Hotel recceptions, cellular phone... all of that can give your location pretty easy..."

Yeah thats true SX. But theres also a VERY slim chance of anything like that happening to you. Ive been online for 6 years and Ive made ALOT of enemys, most just stupid little kids but most of them know enough of how to crash a computer and wipe its hard drive with little programs like Sub7 and so on. Ive been fine.. Mainly seeing Im on a Mac and amune to all of those PC Virus crap, and trust me of something would happen to my data on this computer I would FLIP, this comp is my life.

And YES I afraid for my privacy.. I have a personal life on this computer, I have friends I talk to about .. things.. and look at this post. I download Warez, MP3s, Anime, and everything else Im not ment to have on for free. If MS owned the net they would delete this before it got big so there wouldnt be any trouble for them in the future when they start randomly deleting stuff on your computer. And whos to say some "teenage sociopath" wont find there way into the system and do the same thing to everyones computer just because its there to try and do.. and Trust me, if MS does this, people will be trying to do that. If not me being one of them, I do that type of stuff with my friends all the time. I download a program and see how many ways I can exploit things from it and see what I can get away with, just because its there and I have free time.. and I think Im kinda straying from the topic..


Anyway, I tried to show this to a friend a bit ago and he just said "Its all crap, people just trying to get people hating Microsoft." Which is exactly the problem, people that beleive its going to happen, people that are too closed minded to care untill its too late. And its the exact reason Im saying all this crap which will probably sound stupid when I read it later. Microsoft is doing the exact same thing they always have, they make something, lock everything out so you have to use it, then do what they want by making it more money and making the product worth shit.

I for one wont stand around while MS gets away with locking stuff out and conforming the second world to what ever they want, I LIKE MY FREE PORN AND JAPANESE MUSIC! Leave it be.

And wow, ranting for an hour and dont even know what Im talking about now, I will probably just come back later and completely change this post when Im not so tired, Bye.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#151)
Date: Aug 25, 2002, 01:33PM
can i just say a few words like "monopolies commission" or what about this "taking over the internet" the internet is worldwide and the users from each country have to abide by their own law as well as the sites own law depending on the country of origin.

so i'd like to sum this whole thing up in a few little words.... utter bullshit

thank you for taking the time to read this now stop beliving elvis is alive and that there was a fourth hitman on jfk and the other 3 are all decoy's
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#152)
Date: Aug 25, 2002, 10:43PM
wow...........long thread

i think that this is quite possible and will be adopted by most people simply because it's new and shiny. just look at XP. John Q Public doesnt care about what an os can do or what components are installed on his motherboard and such. they just call dell and get whatever is on sale at the moment.
with most (i say that lightly) of the world using windows, the time will come to upgrade simply because newer is better. if this plan comes into play it will spread like wildfire before anyone has a chance to be informed about its true nature.
one of the first on board will be isps, which will draw all those who want the internet into the palladium sinkhole.

the biggest problem is ignorance.

and face it: there are alot of ignorant people

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#153)
Date: Aug 25, 2002, 10:47PM
oh yeah, the us doesn't even obey the UN laws on the declaration of war and such. has anyone stopped them? no. why? because they are the most powerful country on the planet. the same situation applies to microsoft. what do you think will happen when the most powerful corporation breaks a few laws? it already happened. resolution? nope.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#154)
Date: Aug 26, 2002, 03:37PM
you guys make me laff, your big powerful and mighty bill gates micropish already been took to court and fined for tryin to kill the competition, face it, your all bored paranoid delusionists who haven't got anything better to do than come up with plots on the big bad corporations, anyone with half a brain could figure out this is all just over hyped shit, does anyone here actually have these so called plans in hand for microsoft to take over the world's internet? no? didn't think so
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#155)
Date: Aug 26, 2002, 06:51PM
das vampiros: You, and quite a lot of others, don't seem to understand the concept that Microsoft is approaching this in a way which is technically legal. Indeed, the main thing that would help them uphold it is the DMCA, so they would actually have the law on their side. They are well within their rights to stop others using their file formats legally (tho imo not morally).
As for the intrusion of privacy, they are even appraoching that in a fairly legal way. They are not scanning your drive and reporting everything back to some database. Its done so when you run any program, it must have a verified digital signiture. ie, no more warez. You're breaking the law, not them. I'm not sure as to how this would work with mp3s as surely they cannot legally prevent you from ripping your own cds. While looking into this I'm yet to find much concerning that area..

Also, to the people talking about cracking the security. Again, you don't seem to be understanding this right. By changing any portion of it, it would no longer match the digital signature held remotely. Microsoft would knew you'd cracked it, and you'd get thrown into jail under the DMCA. Again, you're breaking the law not them.

Its not paranoia, I assure you.

They may well be inundated with lawsuits and government investigations when it comes to the whole Monopoly thing, but microsoft seems to be getting very good at slipping out of those, or making them last so damn long they can finish what they started anyway.

As far as I'm concerned, I hope they do it. Another company will popup to make new chips based on a better architechture than x86 and it might give opensource the kick in the butt it needs, to get mainstream :) (Smile)

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Subject: why Palladium will work (#156)
Date: Aug 26, 2002, 08:00PM
If you doubt the fesability, You just aren't a forward thinking person.

It will seperate from the internet you know, then it will consume it.

It will be cheap as hell to buy as well since MS will most likely automatically update for you and just charge every computer a yearly update maintnance fee. It represents a gaurenteed steady income for them. It will take a large capital investment to create the starting network, but they will most likely shift their resourses slowly to fill in as the new users plie up. It will become a safe haven for shopping and pay for play streaming movies and audio. All the entertainment providers will side with Palladium when fiberoptics are implemented on a large scale. It will offer opportuinties which a normal PC would not be able to provide. All the professional software companies will write compliant software. Those who don't will have their shit cracked the day it hits shelves, as you might put it. It will be a matter of survival for them. You won't be able to manipulate Palladium code as you will not be provided the tools. You will not be able to construct the tools necessairy because you won't be able to get your own programs to run outside of a programing containment shield, if non-certified persons will be allowed to code. That is unless some software company bent on freesource programming sneeks something under the MS inspectors nose. That'd ba a jail sentance as well as career suicide.
Most people don't mind abiding by the law. The overwhelming majority couldn't give a rats ass that a bunch of teenaged geeks want to write their own code and make freeware. If you want to do that, you will have to use outdated technology, eg the computer you are using now. Eventually the "old internet" will be populated only by deviants such as yourself who wish to break the established rules under the guise of personal freedoms and preservation of intelectual independence. The old internet will be the community of geeks and intelectuals it used to be, and the palladium internet will become the penned in community of idiots which AOL has always tried to be.
Then they will forget about you. The old internet will gain a negative reputation in the public eye as a collection of criminals afraid to submit to copyright protection laws. We already have laws in place to enforce international copyright laws, at least in these United States of freedom. As was stated earlier, there is no free trade. That means that the government can restrict the importation of non-Palladium componants. The old internet will be seen as a device used to circumvent copyright protection, and therefore be deemed illegal. One by one they will take you away from your boxes and sentance you work in a Mary-Kate and Ashley t-shirt factory as slave labor. Malicous hacking can already land you a life sentance in America thanks to a new law. the man always wins.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#157)
Date: Aug 27, 2002, 04:14PM
monopolies commission is probably the only thing that can stop this happening, short of making it illegal (which won't happen at all, think of the riaa and software houses all pulling the palladium way)

would it not be possible theoretically, while its in the mobo stage, to "chip" the mobo similar to the way people do with playstations to fool your computer into thinking its recieved an everything is ok signal from the net? of course you could never connect to the net since M$ could probably realise what you'd done but if enough people did it quickly enough then they'll probably never be able to track down that amount of people
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#158)
Date: Aug 27, 2002, 05:12PM
I've read about this about a month ago.

I don't think this could happen and even if it would , they will realise pretty fast this is not the way to go.



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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#159)
Date: Aug 28, 2002, 03:31PM
Dont let Palladium happen, please vote NO on my poll!

When over 10000 votes have been reached, I'll forward it to Microsoft.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#160)
Date: Aug 28, 2002, 03:38PM
Yea.. might of helped if i posted a URL, LOLOL!

here it is:

[link]
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#161)
Date: Aug 28, 2002, 03:58PM
seanmcr: you are one lame deviant. please. like people are going to vote, and like microsoft will care.

valiant of you though. about as valiant as suicide.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#162)
Date: Aug 29, 2002, 06:16PM
what about [link] I'm sure there is one already up
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#163)
Date: Aug 29, 2002, 08:02PM
I got some holes... I think.

GPU's: you mentioned that the chip will be implanted in the mobo, and then in the CPU. I read a few articles in wired and a few sites (I'll find the links soon) that ATI and Nvidia are reseaching the aspects of the Graphics Processing Unit to replace the CPU. But I guess that depends on when this thing hits shores, i guess. The reasoning is that if AMD and Intel are on the board, but Nvidia and ATI aren't...

ok, that is kind of weak, but this thing just freaks me... I don't think anything in a sci-fi book should come true (fiction, right?) but this sounds too much like 1984...

This just opens the doors for the hackavists to be the savoirs of the people... again.

I'd write my congressmen, if I weren't positively sure that he wouldn't even read the letter.

God, I'm going to have to read up on this one...

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#164)
Date: Aug 29, 2002, 08:11PM
btw...

pal·la·di·um 1 [pa láydee im] (plural pal·la·di·ums) n soft, silvery-white metal: a malleable silvery-white metallic chemical element that resembles platinum and is used as a chemical catalyst and in electrical contacts, jewelry, dental alloys, and medical instruments.
Symbol Pd

pal·la·di·um 2 [pa láydee im] (plural pal·la·di·ums or pal·la·di·a) n
1. safeguard: a protection or safeguard, especially one protecting social and civic institutions
2. pal·la·di·um (plural pal·la·di·ums)
Pal·la·di·um (plural Pal·la·di·ums)
protective charm: an object believed to have the power to protect a city or nation, especially the statue of Pallas Athena that was believed to protect Troy

Get this guys, Palladium is a alloy that is used cars to reduce pollution by absorbing it into its pours... I guess Microsoft's "Greek mythological goddess of wisdom and protector of civilized life." kinda backfired on them...

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#165)
Date: Aug 29, 2002, 08:15PM
Spam Just one more note... If Troy was belived to be protected by a statue of athena (i.e. a palladium), didn't troy get their asses whoped by the greeks and the trojan horse?

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#166)
Date: Aug 30, 2002, 03:08AM
how ironic would that be :D (Big Grin)
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#167)
Date: Aug 30, 2002, 01:00PM
I cant say I read the entire postings here but I did read about half of them and I have to say im both shocked and appauled.. what happened to everyones right to privacy? The fact that the US Gov't would allow this due to their power hungry money grubbing politicians is absolute bullshit, for starters someone to take the fall and snipe bill gates needs to be hired and microsoft as ive said it for years is the fucking anti-christ. I just cant think straight im that shocked at a blaintant disregard for personal privacy would be violated so disgustingly, the day that this bs goes critical mass is the day I will log off the internet for good. Its a lot of fun but at that price, its just not worth it.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#168)
Date: Aug 30, 2002, 01:08PM
power hungry monkeys
i think nofx should rule the world
i dont care what you say im right :o (Eek)

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#169)
Date: Aug 30, 2002, 05:10PM
THIS IS THE BIGGEST FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT EVER!!


I want to go kill Bill Gates right now and blow up every Microsoft office in the world. How can he expect to do this and NOT be boycotted? MICROSOFT WILL FALL!@LKJRFLWKERJGLWERJHEJLT

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#170)
Date: Aug 31, 2002, 06:28PM
hey - If you guys what some comfort, check out this thread
[link]

these guys have got it covered
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#171)
Date: Sep 01, 2002, 10:43PM
If this does happen a few thinsg will happen

A. The government will sue ms again if they are not making anymoney from ms or lose money

B. a new internet will be born using what we have to day on port 69 instead of 80

C. we will lose all of those freaking idiots that everybody loves to hate
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#172)
Date: Sep 02, 2002, 05:25AM
Well, I tried to ask about this issue in the DXD EV (directx development) mailinglist hosted by microsoft and this is the (funny and also sad) response I got.

My first mail:
>>>
I just felt the need to show this to as much ppl as possible and ask about
how they feel about such thing. Sorry if anyone is offended by this, or if
anyone doesn't like it to be posted to this mailinglist.

[link]
>>
Hi,

This has no connection at all with this forum. If I represented Microsoft
(and I do not) then I'd consider removing your right to post to this list.

Please keep to the agreement you made when you signed up to the list and
restrict yourself to subject matter which is at least remotely connected to
DirectX.

Thanks,


Richard "7 of 5" Huddy
European Developer Relations Manager, ATI
>>
Well, let's make it a DirectX specific question then. Should I continue to
learn DirectX if someday it might become impossible to even create Free
software using DirectX.
>>
Lets keep this specific:

Why at all should you make free software in your valuable time?

Frankly, just dont spame these groups - your quetion was not relevant
either, because this group is fr technical discussions, and not about
your intention to donate your work.

Thomas Tomiczek
THONA Consulting Ltd.
(Microsoft MVP C#/.NET)
>>
So, your saying that free software should't exist and anyone who makes free
software is wasting his/her time and money ? (or are you just obligated to
say so because of microsoft's rules ? who knows, all I know is that I just
asked the opinion of ppl and apologized because of the topic being OT and
all replys since have been flame)
>>
Well, you come here, spam a technical support newsgroup with your page
long blablabla about what is wrong with the technology we all use,
behave, in one sentence, like a 14 year old intending to start a
flamewar.
And then you expect us to stay still, smile and not tell you to SHUT UP.

This is a technical support newsgroup. Keep your non-technical issues at
home. Frankly, take them and burn them - at least I am not interested in
this type of discussion in this place.

Nothing against free software - I like FREE software, but people should
please abandon all rights so I can use them in commercial projects. I
write software for a living. Means: to pay the bill. Why should I care
about free software?

No, DO NOT ANSWER. Dont spam us more.

Thomas Tomiczek
THONA Consulting Ltd.
Microsoft MVP C#/.NET)
>>
Please stop. The list admins will handle this.

Adding to the pointless spam just fills everyones mailbox with more things
they have no interest in reading.


Andy @
Climax Brighton
>>
Apologizing for posting and off-topic doesn't make it any less wrong, just
like apologizing before stealing some lady's purse doesn't make it less of a
crime. You have all the right in the world to make a mistake, but you have
ABSOLUTELY NO RIGHT to knowingly do the wrong thing.

Javier Arevalo
Pyro Studios
>>
In my opinion the best way to SHUT these kind of things UP, is to ignore
them...
We've spend 6 mails already, and probably more to come...
totally obsolete, just ignore it, and continue with some interesting stuff
please..
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~tr3v0r Deviant is offline! Deviant 




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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#173)
Date: Sep 03, 2002, 09:15AM
It won't work guys. MS wanted piracy of XP to be impossible too, hence the protection in service pack 1. Problem is, they don't know what they are doing, so a few hackers and crackers got together, and now I can generate a new Windows XP key, change my current one to the generated one, and download service pack 1. If they can't get something this simple done right, what basis do we have on expecting them to get something so much worse going correctly?

If that happens, I give it a week before there's a patch you'll find in those shady IRC chatrooms that'll kill any "protection" MS has in store for ya.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#174)
Date: Sep 03, 2002, 12:15PM
straightjacket made the following post:
Just one more note... If Troy was belived to be protected by a statue of athena (i.e. a palladium), didn't troy get their asses whoped by the greeks and the trojan horse?

   Ok, I must admit this bit was the funniest shxt I read all this thread!! :]
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~ralesk Deviant is offline! Deviant 




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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#175)
Date: Sep 03, 2002, 12:18PM
Oh, bless fake HTML :] Tho't it'd allow entity stuffs.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#176)
Date: Sep 03, 2002, 12:35PM
tr3v0r made the following post:
It won't work guys. MS wanted piracy of XP to be impossible too, hence the protection in service pack 1. Problem is, they don't know what they are doing, so a few hackers and crackers got together, and now I can generate a new Windows XP key, change my current one to the generated one, and download service pack 1. If they can't get something this simple done right, what basis do we have on expecting them to get something so much worse going correctly?

If that happens, I give it a week before there's a patch you'll find in those shady IRC chatrooms that'll kill any "protection" MS has in store for ya.



gawd i love people like you tr3v0r. you think that by posting how l33t you are, you will be uber-l33t. guess what? you are not. you only show your ignorance. after installing that win xp key and downloading sp1, why don't you take a moment to search through your registry for ghosted information? i'll give you a hint: it is in the CLSID area and is referenced to from a much more common location.

yes, it is a good workaround, but honestly, what group in their right mind is going to JUST give you a new key? if you are gonna generate keys you best do it on a machine you will be wiping boi-o.

oh yea, and checkout microsoft's new software download code on their website :D (Big Grin) you might wanna get all of your hotfixes manually. :P (Lick)

*is happy with just having bought a volume licensed copy and being done with it.

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!pmp2kbam Deviant is invisible! Deviant 




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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#177)
Date: Sep 03, 2002, 10:29PM
aeternitas made the following post:
Who said we have to be online on a computer to get anything done?

Boom.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#178)
Date: Sep 04, 2002, 01:33AM
From mkinne:
*is happy with just having bought a volume licensed copy and being done with it.

I brrrrrr. At WinXP.

From pmp2kbam:
Point Right aeternitas made the following post:
Point Right Who said we have to be online on a computer to get anything done?

Boom.

Wonder why he/she's online, don't we?
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~resen Deviant is offline! Deviant 




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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#179)
Date: Sep 04, 2002, 05:29PM
If this goes through I have a feeling Bill Gates will be in great danger. I really don't see this happening. I mean it would be a huge "virtual war" so to speak. There are so very many people that hate MS as is. But the scary thing is that it COULD happen. Where would that leave the more expereinced end of the net? Arn't there whole countrys that would be against this? I mean, can this one company take over the world like this?
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#180)
Date: Sep 04, 2002, 06:28PM
wow. thats scary, but i still don't know how it will ever work.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#181)
Date: Sep 05, 2002, 12:57PM
ok, lets put this into serious context and ask ourselves.... is this palladium actually going to be pushed as "the latest home computing hardware" or is it more thoughtfully designed to be pushed @ companies who are networked and want to keep out hackers, hence they could still probably access the net thro their boards but anyone attempting to gain access wouldn't have a chance, this in theory would wipe out "company espionage" or just plain old malicious hackers intent on deleting a company's database of information cos their sick of seeing the company's advertisement on t.v
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#182)
Date: Sep 05, 2002, 04:33PM
das-vampiros: Just sell this as nice home-computing system and you'll find all the AOLers hanging on it (which makes the rest of the online world HAPPY). But then more and more comps get changed and people move in, especially if they see software. Yea, big ass MS-licking companies will probably start writing software on the new platform and OS and etc. And with that, the older software become unsupported, new software become hard or impossible to run on the old system... You see where I'm pointing to. Call me paranoid :] But I'd call myself logical. And I'd prefer to stay on THIS side.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#183)
Date: Sep 06, 2002, 03:51PM
Just decided to sign up in order to post my two cents...

If the Pd chipset is to verify all software against an online key database, how about WindowsPd? As far as I know, it's quite impossible for a solid-state BIOS to contain all the modem/cable/DSL etc. drivers for every connecting device that ever was made, so how can the Pd-checksum for the WindowsPd bootsector be checked?

Of course, that takes us onto how the BIOS can be verified... :) (Smile)

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#184)
Date: Sep 06, 2002, 04:15PM
ok how about this then, any new boards with palladium would basically render allllllllllllllll your existing software null and void, someone wanna tackle that issue, since it's been said that "no software will work without the digital verification code" are you guys chasing your own tails or what
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#185)
Date: Sep 07, 2002, 03:06AM
goddamn assinine people

Microsoft isn't just going to put this out before putting the keys into the software first. Not everything is going to be null and void because of it. And as it is mentioned before this has hardware too so all those uber-fucks out there who think this will be hacked within a week are seriously mistaken; it'll take atleast years to hack. Do you really think microsoft will really put this out without putting the verification codes on your computer first thats what XP is for.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#186)
Date: Sep 07, 2002, 03:26PM
This is a hoax guys, MS shot down the company who started out wanting this.. SunMicrosystems is who orignaly had this idea... M$ Intel and AMD all blasted sun becuase of it's ignorance and total lack for [b]personal[/b] Computer users. I'm actualy saddend that you people as well fell for this.

--
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~chagrinest Deviant is offline! Deviant 




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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#187)
Date: Sep 08, 2002, 03:01AM
What do I think then...
I believe there is a great chance of all this crap coming into reality. Do You remember what happened a year ago?
When three packages where delivered straight into offices (ultrafast delivery by terrorists i mean).
Now. Internet had an important place in the communication of these terrorist as it also has today.
So, it is possible that MS already has the approval of US government. Fighting terrorism is rather popular today, isn't it?
Of course, there's nothing wrong about it, because I wouldn't like anyone flying into my office one day.
But don't You think any government wouldn't be interested of knowing exactly what we are doing, thinking and planning.
They would rather prefer if we all liked the same things, to put it another way. We would be ideal citizens when
we would be a mass of loyal consuming dumbasses. Isn't it so? Any thinking person is a possible threat. The more different point of views we have in the world, the more interests must be satisfied. The more freedom must be in the world. The more ideas the more there are perverted ideas. It's necessary to fight and to control them. But first, when You are a government, You must find those perverted ideas. This a difficult task. Easiest way to deal with this problem is to decrease the number of ideas. You must create an impression as if we had everything and so on. It's a cruel world we live in.
Have you people heard about a car, which was lately introduced (unfortunately I can't remember which company was behind this)
and which would call the cops as soon as You start driving a car when drunk or a little drunk.
Being drunk is not the issue here. Of course it's not right to drive a car when drunk.
But it shows again how much some people would like to be able to know everything about us and about our actions.
So what i wanna say about MS, is that if I was US government I don't think i had anything against its efforts to "secure" the internet and computing in general. Under the flag of antiterrorism You can do "amazing" things.
Right now, in my opinion, there is not anymore a question about if they can do this or if they are able to do it. Of course they are. Right now the only question is how to prevent this crap from happening.
I believe the only the only thing in this matter that is still on our side, is the law. The laws about privacy and human rights. And we should act fast before those laws are going to be a bit "reviewed".
One(even the police, who else can come into my house anyway?) needs an order to come into my house (into my privacy) to perform a search or something. Why is it legal to spy on my private stuff in my pc?
Think about it, people. It's not just as simple as that.
History repeats itself. Governments have a tendency to test our limits. If we allow them too much, then there will be a point when we are left without any right to decide or allow.
Am I making any sence?
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~tyler-durden Deviant is offline! Graphics Artist 




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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#188)
Date: Sep 09, 2002, 09:30AM
Now I won't be able to sleep. :\
But thanks I guess, it's scary, and i'm going to cycle it around my friends...
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~ctrlburn Deviant is offline! Deviant 




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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#189)
Date: Sep 09, 2002, 07:43PM
The day has come. It is our mission... to firebomb Microsoft.

I've wanted to do it for a long time... but finally Microsoft has gone way too far to be ignored.
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~kadenasse Deviant is offline! Developer 




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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#190)
Date: Sep 10, 2002, 03:07AM
Hello all
Sorry to be late in the discution, but I discover this subject in an other forum where the original post of warpdarkspin was translate
Please excuse my english and I hope to be clear in this post .. :-) (Smile)

After reading all the post in deviant, I will make2 or 3 remarks ...

First of all... I am sorry but I think Billou (this is one of the french bad nickname of Bill Gates ) will win against al of us. He as a good marketing pool and most of the private user of M$ just want security and protection, So they will be antousiast to buy Palladium. We alla have all ready lost this battle, may be not the war... :-) (Smile) )
Palladium is the next step.... the first one was XP wich introduce the control of your PC. Of course some of you crack the code and this is good... but...this was only a softcode to crack

Second : there is may be an hope but it won't came I think from the mass

a)you are all concentrate on the pc under M$, but Linux is becoming mature
We see in france more and more annouce about the transfert of technologie and knowledge from M$ to linux of softwar editor... That mean that this firm try to escape of the Billou egemoni and continue to offer to others a way to develope and create freely

b)I don't know the situation in other country, but in most of firm in France and espacially the one who manage a internal network, they use PC under m$ as client post, they have develope theire own soft and with the transfert of knowledge
from M$ to Linux for exemple of the editor, it will be more interesting and easier in term of cost to transfert the internel development than modifying code to introduce the Palladium trust code and Buy the license to use is own soft

c)Most of the firm network, use NT (which is a bad clone of VMS from DEC), VMS from Digital corp, or main frame like AS400 or unix system. What about the inclusion or insertion of the Palladium chip set in this system.... I mean espacialy about Unix system, the only chance to this firm (DEC ,IBM, DEC...) is to insert the chip in their materiel and the technilogy is quite different of intel or amd technologie or develope a soft that Palladium can accept as trustworty. In this case, and as Linux is a Unix system in fac, I think that we will find shortly a hacker who can simulate this soft connection and enter by the back door of the Palladium system

d)the firm have to communicate each other, they use TCP/IP. IF M$ buy the KPN network and try to close the network with Palladium technology. They , by the fact, will cut this communication, this mean shortly that the economy will be completly struggle and then the firm close, the personal will be fired and so on. first result will be hate of the situation, second one is that the person which are fired, will not have money to spend to buy the liciense to M$ for their personnal computer and Billou will sit on a montain of ashes

Third point : cryin ghere is good for a short moment. We may have solution to try :
a) petition of course
b)use of the legal instance in us country to promote our privacy...(I mean by example theCNIL in France)
c) and I think it is the best wayto fuck Billou. Use alternative technology like Linux or other, So the the firm like Borland and other will have interest to invest more and more in this technology....they have a double interst....one financial of course, the second is that they can mintain they survey and escape from Billou

I know this battle is not win and we have little time before us... this is I think us only chance to be stil alive. U the creator of freeware and me which is a conceptor of soft for the firms.... :-) (Smile) )

this was the point of vue of a middleage parent (well I am not married and have no child but I am in middleage)

thank for reading this post and loose hope.... the aerger time against M$ has past, this is time know for reflexion and action

Kadenasse

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~kadenasse Deviant is offline! Developer 




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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#191)
Date: Sep 10, 2002, 03:13AM
oops......
I would say

Thanks for ready this post and don't loos hope

sorry ;-) (Wink)

Kadenasse
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#192)
Date: Sep 10, 2002, 03:15AM
oops
I would rather say :

Thanks for readin this post and don't loose hope
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~kadenasse Deviant is offline! Developer 




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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#193)
Date: Sep 10, 2002, 07:37AM
Just a few mord words, about the idea of following the actor against M$. I just found this information..... :-) (Smile)

Hewlet Packard has decide to deliver from this month, all the new PC of the Pavillion family with Wordperfect from Corel againt with M$ Word XP in north america..... This is a new affront to Billou following the give by Dell last week prefering the Corel Family product for some of the Dimension and Inspirion Fimly PC

As I said before....we are to small alone against Billou.....but we can act, by choosing the stuff we will use to work and play and promoting them

Kadenasse

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#194)
Date: Sep 12, 2002, 11:24PM
kadenasse,

don't be so happy...

HP decided to use M$'s software instead of M$'s software. Corel is now owned by M$ (they bought them as soon as they created Corel Draw for Linux, and Corel Linux distributions, as they've directly threatened to the Windows as the only PC DTP environment). M$ fired half of the people from Corel, and let them struggle with Wordperfect and Corel Draw for Windows... That's the main reason for others DTP-software production companies to ignore *nix platforms, as M$ would destroy them so easily that they wont even notice...

So, HP's choice was between ultra expensive and less expensive programs. And few hundreds can mean pretty much when it comes to comparing their configurations with competition out there... Better marks in the magazines means better sale, and those marks are usually affected the most with the price...


Cheers...

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#195)
Date: Sep 14, 2002, 01:15AM
I have found a translation of this article in french and even at 4h00 AM I'm still interested by the subject this project is demoniac... some of you have talk about Antitrust in the forum but like a guy said it's like Terminator too if u have ever seen the whole story the machines have been created by humans but after a short time one of them has been able to become the Anti-Christ. Yes I'm talking about about Skynet. Imagine if something like this happen or even imagine being in a Matrix. Where we would be slave... At this time this Article and his translation is runnin' wild on internet, FTP's and e-mails... soon the whole planet will know about this demoniac project and i hope that it will abort by someone. I'll come back to see if there is anything new in the forum so i'll be inform on the subject and i'll be able to share with the world cause we need to do something about that M$ SHIT.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#196)
Date: Sep 14, 2002, 12:23PM
*yawn*

OLD NEWS!
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~jeanseb Deviant is offline! Deviant 




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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#197)
Date: Sep 15, 2002, 04:50AM
Hello, I'm new and come late also in the discussion...

Excuse my english also, cos' I'm french...
I read chagrinest post and that made me think about "1984"... But I won't be so pessimistic... I think that this kind of system (I mean the one from "1984"...) wouldn't work ever cos' it would kill itself by trying to rub everyone's mind... Anyway, controlling everybody is an utopy now because of the energy and the people who it would be needed to do that... But who knows... In 20 years ?

I strongly believe that we should stop complaining now and take another OS to kill M$... I think that's the best thing to do against them... You can write petitions if you like so that can help also...

I'm really afraid of what is going on in this bloody world, and I won't let my privacy become the product of an awful marketing company...
Hopefully, and as kanedasse said, they're is a strong anti-Microsoft reaction in Europe and even in the USA, universities in France are practically all using UNIX or Linux (hope it will continue...). But I stay sceptic for the political reaction about that: I don't think Chirac or any "Mussolini" (understand Berlusconi) will do something against it...
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~tryokane Deviant is offline! Deviant 




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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#198)
Date: Sep 22, 2002, 03:13AM
I tried to type something really long but the computer shut me down so here I have to go at it again,
first we may not be able to talk so freely as before........yes we do have moderators or adminstrators on the forum which may be biased delete posts which they find a little offending to them but may not be to us......but if Palladium is installed it may not just be moderators or adminstrators.....most probably government and microsoft will filter out any content that they would find ill to them.....
Secondly, I have reasons not to trust the TV or newspaper, because governments have the right to censor contents or not letting the newspaper agency to post the articles that they find offending.........they have the right to choose which channels you get to watch on tv, which you don't, and another thing, government figures aren't trustable all the time......let me quote an example for mine they have been saying that the taxi bussiness is just as well as last year's and some government-shared company will increasing the amount of taxis when I find taxis with no customers in a roll as I walk home at night.......how can u tell me to beileve what they're saying is true

there are reasons to why software companies would want to support Palladium, commercial ones I would mean, no free software company would have a need to do so.....especially if it have to go through microsoft just in order for it to be able to "play" ok first reason why commercial software companies would go with Palladium..........fansubs(for animation), cracks for software and games, free ebooks, trading of stuff, pirates.......fansubs and cracks are ebooks are usually free, even though they do damage commercial companies because people do not have to buy from them.......but in the end the money(which is usually limited) is still with us, allowing us to do what we want, support a company we like in some other games etc...........blah blah blah actually I typed it but I deleted them cause they are out of topic........ok reasons why commercial company wouldn't support Palladium
1)they know Palladium will get rejected by the public
2)it maybe free now but they might have to pay to get the digital signiture later

Ok I have a reason for people not to buy ready packed up computers by companies alike Dell........cause you'll find them usually "unupgradable" meaning you can't go to your normal computer accessories vendor to get a new sound card, graphic card, upgrade your cpu etc etc, for me I'll go to the place where I buy all the parts for the computer and I'll ask them to fix it up for me(they might charge a small fee but they didn't for it and it's still defintely better they're better than buying a packed up and ready to go one even if they charge you a little for assembly, and I have used mine for a long time still I got no problem with it, in case you have a problem you'll still have your guarantee card which the staff would have told you what to do with.......

Ah.....I'm a newbie so I just found one that there are more than just intel and amd......so oh well......no way Palladium will ever work out......^^;

Oh yeah the last one I don't find any offense that my kids(if I have any) under 18 watch porn, no problem. I mean how many of you have watched porn before 18 or you know your children below 18 who watch porn are you are below 18 yourself......(please don't get offended by me)

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~the-big-joke Deviant is offline! Deviant 




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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#199)
Date: Sep 24, 2002, 02:50PM
First of all, DONT COMPLAIN ABOUT MY SPELLING!
1: I am writing to fast (and is to lazy to read it trought my post)
2: I live in sweden

So, where to start?
I am a little bit worider...
I dont want that thing in my computer.. after all, its MY computer, isnt it?
I dont have any porn, and not many ilegal programs in general, and i realy dont have much to hide, so whye do i wish to have it as my own? Simple, its mine, and you dont have ANYTHING to do whit it!
I doubht any geek will use it, thought alot of persons who dont know anything about computers will buy it, where there new computer, that hapends to be put togheter by dell... Personaly i build my own computer!
It costs les, and i can chose whats in it!
the thing is that if this thing starts to make its "own" internet, i will get one, but i will still have my old computer. I want to be able to acses both nets, and i want to be able to use freewares! I wont abond my old favorite games/programs!

Anyone here playd shadowrun? (its a roleplaying game, and yes it requres you to TALK to real people, but i gues most of you geeks dont know what TALK is ;-) (Wink)
There its a world where a goverment exist, but the companys rule. Does it sound familiar? Isnt it like in USA? In america its "i have the money, therfore i am bether than you". I hate that! I am a poor little kid (17) who spends far to much time on the internet! Still, i have my opinion, and i am not afraid to tell people what i think!
Puh... now i need to go to sleep, will complain more tomorow. Until that day: farewell
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~f4ll3n-angel Deviant is offline! Deviant 




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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#200)
Date: Sep 24, 2002, 05:06PM
ok, thats it.. i got to post # 187 and now i have a headache... im not reading n e more..

Im so against microsoft, but forced to use their crap. I have never - nor will own a legal copy of any microsoft product.

But im with warpbackspin on this 1. I will do my part (of waht i can) to try and stop this from even going further.

*looks at mkinne evily* words to use for you must surely be illegal.

I want my freedom, and im gunna keep it

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#201)
Date: Sep 24, 2002, 05:08PM
oh... n e 1 for a copy of

Windows : Whistler ? *holds up CD*

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#202)
Date: Sep 25, 2002, 12:51AM
Shure... not.

Has anyone thouhg of what will hapend to all your favorite sites? Will i ever see the underdogs agin? (www.the-underdogs.org)

The internet WILL be split into two if this hapends, and i will mostly stay in the "Free internet" part. Hope you to will do it.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#203)
Date: Sep 25, 2002, 02:29AM
Everybody to *nux !!!
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#204)
Date: Sep 25, 2002, 07:35AM
To everyone: start showing the world this site!
Let everyone know of it! DONT LET MICROSOFT DO THIS!
I have to date sent this page to 9 diferent msgboards!
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#205)
Date: Sep 26, 2002, 07:47AM
are we all surprised that M$ wants to own the internet? i hope to god not. doesnt matter, one of a few things will happen:

-they'll cross the lines of anti-trust (they'd have to to implement this) linux will sue them and have it crushed by the un/us government

-palladium will be hacked SO fast itll make bill gate's head spin and all "security features" will be rendered useles

-we will have two interenets, one run on the palladium servers and a good one :P (Lick)

either way, i look forward to see which of these will happen. linux WILL thrive thru this. most people will not tolerate having their system raped my M$ and when they realize they have a BY RULE free alternative that is better then microsoft, they will switch (i know there are some people who are dedicted to ms products *cough*andneedtobeshot*cough* and wont switch, but with a new generation of people coming up who are a LOT more computer savy then the old generation...and they wont stand for it.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#206)
Date: Oct 02, 2002, 01:06PM
hang microsoft

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#207)
Date: Oct 02, 2002, 04:04PM
man1c-m0g made the following post:
They said hardware dongles were uncrackable and would wipe out piracy of high-end programs too. Same for WinXP and its authentication system. Both were cracked as soon as (or before) they came out. I doubt Palladium, if it ever gains a foothold, will bother experienced PC users.

Yep. Let that old man try and stop us.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#208)
Date: Oct 12, 2002, 12:55AM
i didnt read all of it but are you trying to say that MS will actually have like a billion people just to watch us?? Thumbs Down
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#209)
Date: Oct 12, 2002, 02:19AM
They can probably search for "incrorect data" or somthing like that.
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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#210)
Date: Dec 06, 2002, 08:41PM
whether any of this stuff is true or not... microsoft is an evil corporation that will never be satisfied short of controlling the world. There, I had to say that.

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#211)
Date: Dec 24, 2002, 12:01AM
He he... I've been reading again this thing... Beside lots of paranoia, some good things were said...

First of all, it's easy to say 'move to *nix' ... OpenBSD is one of the best and most stabile OS for years, but yet, rarely anyone uses it... What number of that users will be when you wont be able to find a non-palladium processor?

You may want to install some *nix system, but you wont have a hardware for that... and Free *nix systems wont have enough money to buy out license & codes for that... So...

The only way to beat this thing is that, when it gets out, noone buys anything palladium-enabeled for about 6 months... that will be enough for hardware companies to return to their old techniques... M$ wont be destroyed that easily, but if we have a normal hardware, number of *nix users will be like 60%-70%, which will finally put M$ to the ground...

Cheers...

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#212)
Date: Dec 24, 2002, 03:05AM
I think everyone should write to their local newspapers, tv news stations, and any other media they can find in their area, tell them to look into the palladium thing, and make a story out of it, when you let everyone in on what Palladium is really about, people will begin to listen, imagine a person sitting down at home and they're 'watching' the news, you know not paying attention, but then something comes on about how microsoft plans to impliment this, and what it will mean. Instantly their attention will focus on the tv, thousands of people will hear about it and tell their friends/coworkers and the word will spread, no one will buy into it so palladium will die in its tracks. well, thats my two cents (and my 100th post!)

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#213)
Date: Dec 24, 2002, 07:25AM

oh my god.

thanks to whoever revided this thread! it was a very interesting and shocking read!

i think we need to seriously bomb microsoft.

the only way i can see around this is iof we somehow convince people to NOT upgrade their PC's and stick to 3hgz and below processors

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#214)
Date: Dec 24, 2002, 07:42AM
man1c-m0g made the following post:
They said hardware dongles were uncrackable and would wipe out piracy of high-end programs too. Same for WinXP and its authentication system. Both were cracked as soon as (or before) they came out. I doubt Palladium, if it ever gains a foothold, will bother experienced PC users.

The difference here, however, is hardware integration. First-generation Palladium will be integrated on motherboards, but future generations have the potential to be integrated directly on the processors. While I could see first-generation Palladium possibly being cracked, it wouldn't be some little script you'd download off of KaZaA, it'd have to be a professional job, and a risky one at that, with the potential to ruin the motherboard...
-----

aeternitas made the following post:
Who said we have to be online on a computer to get anything done?

Palladium would require an active internet connection. Palladium is based around contacting MS's Palladium servers, so I imagine that if you can't access the internet, you can't run Palladium-enabled software...

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Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#215)
Date: Dec 24, 2002, 08:16AM
phlezk if this does happen, from what i read, this wont happen for at least another couple of years, by then 3ghz will seem like a 486!

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Posts: 224
Subject: Re: Microsoft want to own the internet (#216)
Date: Dec 24, 2002, 08:30AM
Please, if you are sick/scared of this entire Palladium/control thing, format your windows partition. Then email your senator.
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